Episode 998 - Gary Clark Jr.
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuckadelics what's happening i am mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it
Marc:what's happening today is i've gary clark jr on the show today a guitar player and you know me and guitar players and you know me and guitar so uh we talked some guitar that's gonna happen for you shortly and uh i have some new tour dates to announce some stateside club dates as i plow through the new hour or so of material and
Marc:April 18th through 20th at the American Comedy Company in San Diego.
Marc:May 16th through 18th at Good Nights Comedy Club in Raleigh, Raleigh, North Carolina.
Marc:May 23rd through 25th at the Comedy Club on State in Madison, Wisconsin.
Marc:June 6th through 8th at Vermont Comedy Club in Burlington, Vermont.
Marc:And June 13th through 15th at Helium Comedy Club in Richmond Heights, Missouri, right outside St.
Marc:Louis.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com slash tour for ticket info.
Marc:Also, the UK dates are there.
Marc:The Colorado dates are there.
Marc:So it's shaping up.
Marc:It's shaping up to be a real tour with a mixture of small theaters, medium-sized theaters, and comedy clubs.
Marc:I'm going to get out there.
Marc:I'm going to get out there into the country and I'm going to do the thing and I'm going to eat some food in different places, but not like I used to eat, man.
Marc:I think I've only been to St.
Marc:Louis once.
Marc:Is that possible?
Marc:We, I wrapped on glow.
Marc:I don't know if I told you, I don't think I could have a Monday cause I, I wrapped on Monday morning.
Marc:I shot my last scene for this season of glow season three and
Marc:It went great.
Marc:And it was sad and exciting.
Marc:And they're all still shooting.
Marc:But maybe on Friday, I'll go when everybody else raps and hang out and eat the ice cream that I'm going to, you know, contribute to for a truck for the crew.
Marc:I don't know if you know that about most TV shoots.
Marc:I don't know about film shoots so much, but yeah.
Marc:At the end of each episode, usually the director will throw for some sort of gift type of truck to come.
Marc:And the last day, I guess me and the girls, me and the gals are going to chip in and get an ice cream truck.
Marc:So if there's any people on the crew listening to this, and I just spoiled that for you Friday, don't look at it as being as it being spoiled.
Marc:Look at it as, hey, we're going to get ice cream on Friday.
Marc:Yes, that's it.
Marc:Anyway, hooli, hooli booli.
Marc:Ha, I got a guitar player coming in.
Marc:He's not going to play guitar, sadly.
Marc:He didn't bring one.
Marc:I got some here, but sadly, I did not ask him.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:Sometimes it's a little tricky to record here, but we did get off on a talk.
Marc:I want to make sure I have this to reference you.
Marc:Hear that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm going to tell you what that is in a minute because I just had to find it on my phone.
Marc:It's interesting.
Marc:You know, Gary Clark Jr., I first saw, where did I first see him?
Marc:I know that I saw him open for the Rolling Stones in San Diego when I was with Dean.
Marc:I believe I saw him.
Marc:I know I saw him open for Derek Trucks when I went to see them at the Universal Amphitheater.
Marc:And I think, if I'm not mistaken, but I didn't remember to ask him about it, I think he was with Clapton and Jimmy Vaughn over there at the Forum when Clapton was there when I went to that when Jimmy played over here.
Marc:And I didn't even ask him about that.
Marc:We did talk a bit about him, you know, working with Clapton and Keith Richards and other people.
Marc:But, you know, we got off on the guitar thing.
Marc:He smoked a little weed before and we kind of just drifted in.
Marc:It's so funny when people ask me if they smoke weed.
Marc:I, you know, I'm like, yeah, go ahead.
Marc:And they're like, no, I'm not going to do in here.
Marc:He said, I'm not going to do it outside.
Marc:I'm like, damn it.
Marc:You know, I had almost 20 years sober.
Marc:If I'm around it, man, I did.
Marc:You know, I'm not doing it, but maybe I can get a little something, something right.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Didn't work out that way.
Marc:Thank God, because I need to live with that burden.
Marc:of a contact buzz and how much was i part of that how much should i encourage that shouldn't the answer be like no man you know i'm sober it'd be really helpful if you just do it outside as opposed to like wherever you want man come on do it right here blow it in my face like i'm a kitten i should wrap this up pretty quickly here because i do have to go i gotta take fucking buster back to the vet for the follow-up
Marc:He's acting full on, man.
Marc:Full on crazy.
Marc:Just full on buster.
Marc:Back to his old self.
Marc:But I think I should go get those blood levels checked.
Marc:I probably should get my own blood levels checked.
Marc:Can I do that at the vet?
Marc:Would that be weird?
Marc:You know, you're going to take busters.
Marc:Can you just take a little vial of mine and run it through the machine, see where I'm at?
Marc:See if I have feline leukemia or FIV or, you know, perhaps some other strange feline disease.
Marc:Or should I go to my regular doctor?
Marc:I probably should.
Marc:So heading into this conversation with Gary Clark Jr., I had to get in it, get into the Gary Clark catalog.
Marc:The new album, This Land, I believe it's called.
Marc:Am I right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:That's out now.
Marc:But he's got a few other records out.
Marc:And he got pretty big for...
Marc:for a couple big live records.
Marc:And that was the interesting thing.
Marc:There's a couple interesting things about this conversation is that there are guys that I respect that have a tremendous respect for Gary.
Marc:So it was great to sort of like enter the catalog and know that people that I respect are coming to him with a reverence.
Marc:And he can certainly fucking play guitar.
Marc:And and sing.
Marc:But this album is, you know, it's kind of, you know, it's a mixed bag of kind of blues, ballads, R&B, some hip hop element to it.
Marc:And that's sort of where he's at.
Marc:But what was interesting about the conversation with him was that, you know, he was being poised to be the next guitar guy.
Marc:You know, the guitar god guy.
Marc:And, you know, he had a reckon with that.
Marc:And I thought that was interesting.
Marc:And I also thought it was interesting.
Marc:He started in Austin, you know, under the tutelage to some degree of Jimmy Vaughn, Stevie Ray's brother, who I've talked to, who's one of my favorite guitar players.
Marc:So, you know, we're coming in hot with some guitar talk.
Marc:But right out of the gate, I referenced pretty quickly that little piece of what I just played you.
Marc:is something that Matt Sweeney, the guitar player who's been on the show, turned me on to.
Marc:And he just sent me, when people send you a video link, and you can find it yourself.
Marc:Even if you're not a guitar player, you'll fucking be like, what the fuck?
Marc:The YouTube video is Magic Sam, Magic Sam's Boogie, 1969.
Marc:This is Magic Sam.
Marc:He's not even playing his own guitar, and he's laying out this riff.
Marc:And Sweeney sent it to me.
Marc:I'm like, what the fuck is that?
Marc:And Sweeney said he was going to figure it out.
Marc:So for some reason, that was in my head because I listened to a Gary Clark Jr.
Marc:live record, and I heard a song on there, one of his songs, and it had sort of the skeleton of that riff.
Marc:And then like it struck me like, oh, fuck, man, because I tried to figure that out.
Marc:But it's above my it's out of my wheelhouse unless I spent like maybe I could spend the rest of my life trying to figure it out.
Marc:I'm sure there are guitar players who'd be like, no problem.
Marc:Listen.
Marc:But, you know, it's a tricky groove.
Marc:But I felt like when I was listening to Gary's thing, I can't remember what song was on the live album.
Marc:And I was like, oh, no, he tried to figure that thing out.
Marc:And that that's the residue of it in this song.
Marc:So when we start talking about this thing at the beginning of this conversation, that's what we're talking about.
Marc:I just wanted you guys to be in the loop on that because there's a giddiness to it, to the moment of us both know of him knowing immediately what I was talking about, as if like, you know, we had talked about it before.
Marc:It was just it was a pretty beautiful moment.
Marc:And he was a little buzzed.
Marc:So it must have been an even better moment for him.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Oh, you guys.
Marc:Maybe someday things will be okay again.
Marc:But until then, we do have music.
Marc:We do have maybe a little time to turn back or at least stop the slow frying and
Marc:Of this planet.
Marc:But are we going to be able to stop the bugs?
Marc:You know the bugs are going to win.
Marc:The little ones.
Marc:The bugs without.
Marc:Functioning bodies.
Marc:Just renegade strands of DNA.
Marc:The viral bugs.
Marc:The bacteria bugs.
Marc:The ugly bugs that eat the pretty bugs.
Marc:Man is this turned into a downer?
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:So now that I've laid it out and you know exactly what I'm referring to when me and Gary get off on this, it's Magic Sam, Magic Sam's Boogie, 1969.
Marc:You can watch it on YouTube.
Marc:It fucking gets me off.
Marc:So Gary's new album is called This Land.
Marc:It's available now wherever you get your music.
Marc:It's a great album.
Marc:People love it.
Marc:And this is me.
Marc:I got to stop it.
Marc:I'm going to watch it.
Marc:This is me talking to Gary Clark Jr.
Marc:I like to smoke herb.
Marc:Yeah, you can, wait, you want to smoke in here?
Guest:No, I don't smoke in here.
Guest:I don't want to smoke you out, but it's cool if I step out for a second.
Marc:Right now?
Guest:Before?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You sure with that?
Marc:You cool?
Yeah, I'm cool.
Awesome.
Marc:I've had people who need to smoke in the garage.
Marc:Nah, man.
Marc:I don't want to do that to anybody.
Marc:I don't mind it.
Marc:I quit a long time ago, but, you know, it's nice to get a freebie occasionally.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Deep breath.
Marc:Yeah, Kevin Smith was in the old garage.
Marc:I could barely breathe.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, wait, so now when I pointed out the Gold Top with the P90s and I said that's the best guitar, your first response was, really?
Marc:Like, you've played that guitar.
Marc:I have.
Marc:And what is your feeling about it?
Guest:I think it's a great guitar, but I'm tall and it comes with back problems.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:I think, like, I don't know.
Marc:This is a reissue of a 56, and it don't feel as heavy.
Marc:Is that a heavy one?
Marc:It's not, right?
Guest:No, actually.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Some of those West Pauls are heavy as fuck.
Marc:Like a custom is heavy.
Guest:I got to play Hubert Sumlin's...
Marc:oh really he played a what did he play a gold top oh really it was solid man oh my god now do you i think somebody i don't know if i if i you know saw it correctly or he really said it that jason isbel said that maybe old guitars aren't necessarily all they're racked up to be but some of them are huh some of them are i've picked up a couple old ones and they're just you know planks of wood
Marc:Yeah, but did someone fuck with it?
Marc:I mean, was there, did he play, like, was there something different about his other than it being his?
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:I think it was just right how it was, man.
Marc:But those things, those P90s, they just break up, like, it's weird.
Marc:If you crank them up with no effects at all, they just, the notes just, like, come unglued.
Guest:It's like a weird, gnarly, fucked up sounding thing.
Guest:I love it, man.
Guest:A little small amp, too, like a little small Fender like that.
Guest:Like that one?
Guest:Perfect.
Marc:That thing's crazy.
Marc:Like you saw my stereo, and this is the other thing I spent money on is this fucking amp.
Marc:Because you can't find those for cheap unless you're lucky.
Marc:Maybe in Texas, you might find one dumb old person who's got one in their basement from their kid who had it in the 60s who passed away in Nam or something.
Marc:But I think they're probably running out too.
Marc:Yeah, I go look.
Guest:I'm not going to lie.
Guest:I was going to not tell anybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, but...
Guest:Yeah, I always try and go look for something, see if somebody's caught slipping, you know.
Guest:Have you found some?
Guest:Nah.
Guest:Never?
Guest:Nah.
Guest:There's so many guitar players in Texas.
Guest:Oh, in Texas?
Guest:We all think we got like this secret, like running around, got nothing.
Marc:But I didn't know anything about this other than like...
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Someone said the best thing, and I repeat this all the time, about that particular amp.
Marc:I think that's like a 57 Deluxe or a 58.
Marc:They said, it's a one trick pony, but it's a good trick.
Marc:It's a great trick.
Guest:What are you playing through?
Guest:I'm playing through Fender Vibro Kings.
Guest:Old ones?
Guest:No, no, I'm playing through new ones.
Guest:I mean, we run around so much on tour that, you know, the old gear classic stuff, I just gotta keep it at the house.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:You're afraid?
Guest:Yeah, well, you know, just recently, I was shipping guitars and stuff, you know, opened a case and the head's stuck and the neck is snapped.
Guest:That happened?
Guest:Yeah, it's happened a few times.
Guest:With what, like SGs?
Guest:Yeah, I had a Strat.
Marc:A Strat neck broke?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How the fuck did that happen?
Marc:TSA.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Throwing my shit.
Marc:So like when you open that case up, is it already snapped and it's just a mess?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Strings all.
Marc:So sad.
Marc:I love.
Marc:It's so sad, man.
Guest:It is.
Marc:I was trying to think of a riff that, like, because I listened to, I think it was somebody's boogie.
Marc:Sam's boogie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Magic Sam.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Killing on Earl King's guitar.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like the flowers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What the fuck is that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:I love showing people that video.
Guest:Have you ever seen it before?
Guest:Me too.
Marc:Have you figured it out?
Marc:No.
Marc:Because on the live record, you do one that's a little close to that groove, right?
Guest:I do one that's close, but that's because I couldn't figure out the other one.
Guest:I was like, I'll just settle.
Guest:That's what I was wondering.
Guest:I was listening to it, and I'm like, you almost got it.
Guest:And I know that...
Guest:You called me out.
Guest:Because I'm like, it's so close.
Guest:But I wasn't mad at you about it.
Guest:My thought was, if he can't figure it out, I'm not even going to waste my time trying to figure it out.
Guest:If that's as close as he's gonna get.
Marc:Yeah, I gave up, man.
Marc:I detoured to the left.
Marc:But, you know, I can't.
Marc:I'm not great at figuring things out, and that's the great thing about the blues is you get the idea and you run with the idea.
Marc:I got the idea, and now I just own it, right?
Marc:Interpretation.
Marc:So, Austin, that's where you come from?
Guest:Austin, Texas, born and raised.
Guest:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:What part of town, what'd your dad do?
Guest:What part of town?
Guest:Kind of southwest, like on the edge of the city and the country, a spot called Oak Hill.
Guest:You got brothers and sisters?
Guest:I grew up with four sisters.
Marc:Four sisters.
Guest:Yeah, I got four sisters.
Guest:Out on there.
Guest:And I'm right in the middle.
Guest:Yeah, on the edge of town.
Guest:On the edge of town.
Guest:What was your family's business?
Guest:My mom was an accountant, so she was an accountant for Capitol Metro.
Guest:She was in public transport.
Guest:yeah um uh board milk so we used to get like chocolate milk from time to time she would bring it home and it was like the best day ever my dad sold anything and everything from uh shoes to cars to clothes to sales guy houses yeah a hustler anything to keep the lights on yeah yeah are they still around yeah oh that's good they're still around they follow me everywhere do they yeah man it's cute
Guest:Do you at least fly them?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:They just come?
Guest:They just come.
Guest:You get in the car and come?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Yeah, it's pretty good.
Guest:When did you start playing?
Guest:1996.
Guest:Out of nowhere?
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:I was 12.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So not out of nowhere, a friend of mine down the street, she had a band.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Her name's Eve Monse, and she had a black Fender Strat and a Fender Twin with the red knobs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Seen those things?
Marc:Yeah, I have.
Guest:And it was just loud as fuck.
Marc:Yeah, that's a later one.
Marc:It's not like a new one, right?
Marc:Yeah, in like the 80s or something.
Marc:Did it have the pop-out volume drive?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, all that stuff.
Guest:And so it was... She had a band.
Guest:It was an all-girl band.
Guest:A bunch of cute girls playing in the garage.
Guest:They had basketball courses.
Guest:Punk rock?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And her dad would fix video games, and he had a bunch of arcades, so we would just go hang out.
Guest:That was the coolest place.
Guest:Sounds like the best place to be.
Guest:There's guitars, amps, and video games.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:So I just, you know, I started getting interested in the guitar, so about a year later, I ended up just kind of breaking my folks down, and they got me one.
Marc:Yeah, but so when you were just, like, looking at it and getting into it and watching people play it, it just appealed to you?
Marc:Did you try to pick it up before you...
Guest:yeah i tried to pick it up my dad had some guitars in the house and i was always curious actually my first introduction to guitar was seeing tito jackson play really yeah like i was seeing you know young kids you know look like me yeah you know in a band and
Guest:he can kind of play too right yeah he's like a blues yeah right i remember later when he did solo stuff it was sort of like shit like he can yeah he played yeah they did this uh i got this tape they did this uh cover of uh isaac hayes walk on by yeah and he's playing like the fuzz wah-wah part yeah yeah and i was like what does that sound you know and i was like i need to i need that the fuzz wah-wah sound it got me i was it was over and you were like 10
Marc:Uh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's so funny that, like, that one sound that makes that, that's the magic thing.
Marc:Like that, like, you know, like, and it locks in when you're really young.
Marc:Like, how do you make that noise?
Marc:And it landed.
Marc:I need that voice, too.
Marc:So what was the first guitar then?
Marc:What were the ones hanging around the house?
Guest:My dad's guitar was an old Silvertone.
Guest:With amp?
Guest:No, just an old Silvertone acoustic that I actually ended up breaking.
Guest:I tried to take it down off the wall and play it.
Guest:Oh, you broke it?
Guest:Yeah, I busted it.
Guest:I just recently went to my parents' house and it's still busted up, but I feel bad.
Guest:I've got to go get that thing fixed.
Marc:Get the Silvertone fix?
Marc:Get him a new guitar.
Guest:Does he play?
Guest:Yeah, he plays a little bit.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, he plays a little bit.
Guest:Plays keys, you know, too.
Guest:Soul guy.
Guest:Soul guy.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Bernie Worrell.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Makes the noises?
Marc:Eddie Hazel.
Marc:He had fuzz all over.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:You're surrounded by fuzz.
Guest:Surrounded by the fuzz.
Guest:Can't get away from it.
Guest:But my first guitar was an RX, an Ibanez RX-20.
Guest:I can't picture it.
Guest:It's kind of got the body of a Strat.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But two humbuckers.
Marc:Oh, humbuckers on the body of a Strat.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That was it.
Marc:What about you?
Marc:My first guitar was actually a deluxe Copycat.
Marc:There was a brand of guitar called Copycat.
Marc:uh that made copies that were like a hundred bucks like it was a fine start out uh electric i think my first acoustic was an old harmony that my old man had uh harmony f hole acoustic and then the first guitar i bought was a blonde uh telly that was heavy as not that one so that the one i had ended up it's i think it's in some uh uh
Marc:I think some punk rock girl has it now.
Marc:Because before I really knew how to play, I hung around a guitar store, and they had a guy that painted guitars, and I would order parts for guitars, and I made really cool guitars, but I couldn't really play them.
Marc:But I enjoyed the...
Marc:I had this monster guitar, but all I could really play was Johnny B. Goode, maybe.
Marc:Man, that's still pretty cool.
Guest:The guy who plays bass, my man, Johnny Bradley, he's the same way, man.
Guest:He'll take parts and put them all together.
Guest:Between him and you and my guy Dave, I could probably open up a shop and do something pretty cool.
Marc:It's fun because I don't know if it really makes a difference.
Marc:It didn't make a difference to me because I didn't know about tone or nothing.
Marc:I could barely play, but I knew it was cool that you could buy this shit.
Marc:I could have a guy paint it, but the telly got painted cherry red, and I put brass equipment on it, and then I traded it to a roommate for Coke back in the day, and then he had it for years.
Marc:He became a professor at UC Davis, and he's a poet, and he gave it to his buddy's daughter who was in the punk band.
Marc:So I'm like, as long as it has a life...
Marc:Damn.
Marc:It's funny that I was able to track it.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:That's pretty good.
Marc:So who started teaching you?
Guest:I started teaching myself, really.
Guest:Just listening to stuff on the radio.
Guest:My friend Eve would show me something.
Marc:Chords?
Guest:Chords.
Guest:Power chords, really.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Show me the Jimmy Reed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Straight up blues stuff.
Marc:Keeps that weird five open on the turnaround.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Someone just showed me that.
Marc:I'm just learning this shit.
Marc:I learned that from Jimmy Vaughn, who we both... Right.
Marc:I learned it from Jimmy Vivino, who probably learned it from Jimmy Vaughn.
Marc:Nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a good group of guys to be learning stuff from.
Marc:Well, yeah, so that's Austin, but like, so you're just teaching yourself?
Marc:You never took lessons?
Marc:I never really took a formal lesson.
Guest:We would do stuff in school sometimes.
Guest:We had this kind of guitar class where a bunch of kids would get together and share, you know, guitar magazines and
Guest:figure out tabs and stuff like that.
Marc:I still don't know how to do tabs.
Marc:I gotta figure it out.
Marc:It's pretty easy, right?
Marc:It's been so long, but yeah.
Marc:It just shows you where the lead is?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Self-taught through tabs.
Guest:Self-taught through tabs and just listening to records, trying to figure stuff out, watching...
Guest:As soon as I got my guitar, Stevie Ray Vaughan, a tribute to Stevie Ray Vaughan was playing, where it was Jimmy, his brother.
Guest:In town?
Guest:Yeah, it was Austin City Limits.
Marc:Okay, okay.
Marc:Jimmy, his brother.
Marc:Yeah, his brother.
Marc:Who else?
Marc:And the original Double Trouble band?
Guest:Original Double Trouble, Robert Cray, Eric Clapton, Bonnie Raitt.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Buddy Guy, B.B.
Guest:King.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think there might be somebody else that I'm missing.
Guest:But it was like everybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I got my guitar, and I don't know what to do with it.
Guest:And it seemed like the next week or whatever, I'm sitting there on a Saturday.
Guest:You were watching it live?
Guest:No, it wasn't live.
Guest:It was a rerun or whatever.
Guest:But it was that.
Guest:And then they played Stevie Ray Vaughan's performances from 1983 and 1989.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:blew my mind man yeah blew my mind so i just i recorded that tape and learned that pausing and rewinding and figuring out where people's hands were yeah just that's how that was it from stevie right the thing about stevie is you listen to him and you know you're like it happens very quickly in your mind is like that must be the end of this lick oh no it's not oh it's gonna keep going
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I do.
Guest:Does that bother you?
Marc:No, no, I love it.
Marc:I mean, that's the thing that I like about it.
Marc:It's just sort of like, how did he just get all that in?
Marc:How did he play over the turnaround and end up in the right place?
Marc:With all those notes and all that style.
Guest:It's a lot.
Marc:it is man but like it's weird because i love jimmy like jimmy was my guy more than stevie really yeah those first three fabulous thunderbirds records the way he played so clean and so decisively it was like great to me yeah he he knows exactly what he's gonna do this is what it is and if i don't i'm gonna back up and if you're uncomfortable i'm gonna let you deal with it
Marc:But so, okay, so you're watching that and you're trying to work out Jimmy, Jimmy Ray Vaughn, or Stevie Ray, and you were able to, what about Hendrix?
Marc:I mean, because that was always, actually for me, the liability of Stevie Ray was how much he listened to Hendrix.
Marc:like hendrix but i kind of put hendrix in his own place and when i hear people like you know kind of really kind of pulling from him i'm like that's hendrix it's weird i mean i'm maybe i'm an asshole but that's undeniable yeah you can't but he but he had all that tex mac shit you know that texan you know kind of i don't even know where that comes from with the vaughn boys jump blues stuff i don't know where it comes but it's uniquely
Marc:Because I can hear it on your first record, too.
Marc:There's a rhythm to it that comes directly from those guys and whatever they're following.
Marc:Do you ever track it?
Marc:Yeah, a little bit.
Marc:Tracking it back to Lightning, Hopkins, T-Bone, Walker.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I think T-Bone Walker wrote all of the licks.
Yeah.
Marc:Wrote all of the lyrics.
Marc:Yes, they're all there.
Marc:You have to find them, but every blues lick that everyone's using is in a T-Bone Walker song somewhere.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Sure, exactly.
Marc:And tone as well.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Beautiful tones.
Marc:So you were going back.
Marc:When did you start actually doing that?
Marc:When were you able to kind of hold your own and play?
Marc:Yesterday?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:No.
Guest:It changes night for night.
Guest:Hold my own and play.
Guest:I guess I did a talent show in eighth grade.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And we kind of won a talent show in eighth grade.
Guest:What did you play?
Guest:We played Pride and Joy, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Shuffle, me and her, a drummer, Megan and a bass player, Jeff, Young Kids.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, it was awesome.
Guest:And you nailed it?
Guest:We didn't get booed.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:You won.
Guest:We won, so we did okay.
Guest:Won a little bit of money.
Guest:It's like, man, we made it.
Guest:We were in the record business.
Marc:And you never, like it was always the blues that moved you?
Guest:Nah.
Guest:no no no the blues is is what what was kind of my introduction to music yeah got you playing i thought i was going to be i love music but i thought i was going to be an r b singer yeah on some like boys to men type shit oh yeah yeah you know so you were singing a lot too i thought i was going to be on tour of nsync or something you know well there it's weird like what i mean was it because r b like because i can hear that even on the new record
Marc:that you move through a lot of different sounds, and there's definitely soul ballads on there, right?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:And there's definitely classic R&B, like pre-Boys to Men vibe to some of this stuff.
Guest:Yeah, that's what I grew up listening to, all that Curtis Mayfield, Temptations, Four Tops.
Marc:That's what was playing in the house?
Guest:That's what my pops was listening to.
Guest:He couldn't touch the record player.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:You weren't allowed?
Guest:Nah, really.
Guest:I fucked around and tried to be a DJ on it and broke the band.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:Yeah, that was it?
Guest:Mm-mm.
Guest:He broke his guitar and his fucking record player.
Guest:Get away from me.
Marc:You owe this guy.
Guest:I do, actually.
Marc:Damn.
Marc:Did you do any singing with the band?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Like just R&B set up or no?
Guest:uh yeah i had this i had this r&b group with my guy robbie man and we called ourselves young soul and um what grade was that this was like sixth seventh grade oh okay yeah and um this guy you know we would pull up the ladies love this guy man yeah you know and so we would in sixth grade sixth grade yeah and so we would at lunchtime or whatever we'd be hanging out and
Guest:He'd be like, yo, gee, let's sing something.
Guest:And so we would sing whatever As Yet or Boyz II Men song was on the radio or whatever to these girls.
Guest:We would get my other friends who were around.
Guest:So we would sing.
Guest:Sing back up.
Guest:Yeah, they would sing back up.
Guest:And we would sing these songs, man.
Guest:And the girls would come up and scream.
Guest:oh robbie and this and that and so that's what we thought we were gonna do you know we called ourselves young soul we had a whole trip you know yeah we're gonna go out to la and be superstar oh yeah did you have haircuts nah i mean i just had a nice fade oh yeah doing that but we we were gonna be edgy so like grunge was happening that time so we wore like flannel you know what i mean
Guest:you take you can make it a broad audience exactly we're gonna get that all the angry white dudes are gonna like us yeah yeah we're gonna get everybody yeah yeah so yeah it was that's that's what i thought i was gonna do i got hell man you know i was a singer in the choir i was a choir boy and trying to play basketball and do that you know i got so much hell for it it's like man they were busting on you they were busting on me it was crazy
Marc:So that kept you in church every Sunday, I guess, singing in the choir.
Guest:It did.
Guest:I had to sing in church, man.
Guest:I started playing in these clubs down on 6th Street, and my mom said, if you can play for these drunks, you can go and play for Jesus.
Guest:Really?
Guest:You were playing in, wait, when you were in high school?
Guest:Yeah, 14, 15, going out and playing.
Guest:And down in Austin.
Guest:You spent some time in Austin, you know?
Marc:I go, I like going to Austin.
Marc:Like, I don't, like, I've been there, yeah, quite a few times.
Marc:But you're just there?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, I saw you there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I saw you at the Continental.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:When Jimmy was there because I was doing a show down the street at the Paramount and then Jimmy just happened to be in town because he was hanging, or yeah, Vivino was hanging out with Vaughn and I think you came by.
Marc:Weren't you there?
Marc:Didn't I see you there?
Marc:Yeah, I was drinking though.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it's been pretty good.
Marc:Yeah, and yeah, because he was there, Zapata was there and Jimmy was there.
Marc:And Billy, I know Billy, Jimmy's guy.
Marc:I think, was he playing with him that night?
Marc:Like, I know that guy from here.
Marc:He was out here for a while, Billy, the guy who plays guitar.
Marc:Billy Pittman, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:He's great.
Marc:Yeah, he's a good guy.
Marc:But, yeah, so I've been out there.
Marc:But that was the first time I've been in the Continental, though, even with all its history.
Marc:It was kind of fun to see old Jimmy trying to keep up with Jimmy.
Marc:It's very funny to, like, because Vaughn is such a, like, he's such a grounded player.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:He doesn't fuck around.
Marc:He's not trying to be something he's not, you know?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:So, all right, so you're singing in the choir.
Marc:Oh, by the way, I just got a vinyl of the Soul Stirrers with Sam Cooke.
Marc:Someone reissued it.
Marc:Did you ever listen to that stuff?
Marc:A little, a little.
Marc:Like the Soul Stirrers were a gospel group, but he was with them for a while.
Guest:Oh, right, right, right, right.
Marc:And Sam Cooke was with them, and it's so wild to listen to that shit because he listened to it, and it's straight up gospel stuff, but then you hear Sam Cooke, so you're like...
Marc:where's that guy come like you he was so identifiable so early on like just the magic of that dude's voice amazing did you see that the story on him no was it bad no it was not bad it was just a lot of information i didn't know ended badly right yeah yeah yeah i don't i don't even know it just it seemed like weird he got shot
Marc:by some crazy or i don't know maybe she wasn't crazy i don't know what happened i don't know what happened either but it was interesting to see his you know his his story oh yeah what he was about a lot of levels to that guy there was yeah there's a good biography that i started i start a lot of books
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:Oh, like reading?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Start them and I get a few pages in.
Marc:Eh, okay.
Guest:I'm kind of the same with that.
Guest:I'm kind of the same with that.
Marc:So, okay, so you're playing basketball, you're doing your boys to men thing, you're singing in the choir.
Marc:So when, you know, what's the transition?
Marc:When do you start, like, doing...
Marc:Rock and blues.
Guest:Rock and blues.
Guest:I started doing rock and blues.
Guest:I got a Jimi Hendrix CD.
Guest:Which one?
Guest:The Ultimate Experience is like a compilation.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it starts off Purple Haze or whatever.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then Steve Ray Vaughn's Texas Flood.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then I have friends, you know, who are wearing Airwalks and Vans and Gene Co's and that long hair.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They were playing Nirvana.
Guest:So I heard Kurt Cobain hit a stomp box.
Guest:That was the first time I heard about pedals, like a distortion pedal.
Guest:So I just kind of got into it that way.
Guest:A buddy of mine, Troy, we would all kind of hang out.
Guest:split music this guy Aaron was a drummer and he would bring all this kind of music you know he's listening to like corn and Limp Bizkit and all kinds of stuff like that so yeah it was just kids getting together you know sharing their stuff some of it I liked some of it I didn't but I heard it yeah and and then were you that's when you started playing out though around town not 20 years ago 20 years ago sorry um
Guest:20 years ago, me and Eve, for her 15th birthday, she decided that she wanted to go out and play at a blues bar.
Guest:Eve is the one from the punk band?
Guest:Eve is the one from the garage.
Marc:With the video games?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, okay.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:So she wanted to go down with the...
Guest:the talent show band.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And play some blues.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we ended up putting our names down on the list and we ended up playing T-Bone Shuffle and Pride and Joy.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And from there, we just kind of started.
Guest:We just kept going back and, you know, these guys.
Guest:To which club?
Guest:It was a club called, it was called Babes at the time.
Guest:It was like a sports bar, a baseball sports bar and stuff like that.
Guest:And so we just kept going back and these guys would introduce us to all these artists like T-Bone Walker, Albert Collins, Freddie King, B.B.
Guest:King.
Guest:Which guys?
Guest:The guys who were running the...
Guest:The Blues Jam.
Guest:Walter Higgs, he had a band called The Shuffle Pigs.
Guest:So it was Walter Higgs and The Shuffle Pigs would host The Blues Channel, so they had babes.
Guest:And they would have other people come sit in, like Keller Brothers, Moeller Brothers, Derrick O'Brien, I'm not sure if
Guest:I don't know him.
Guest:Brian, Alan Haynes, all these people would just come, and so they would just educate us, bring us CDs, bring us tapes, and say, check this out, kid.
Guest:You see that you're interested in this thing, check it out.
Guest:Oh, by the way, there's this radio show on Saturday, and there's this radio show on Monday.
Guest:Check it out, and you can hear all blues, and you can figure out.
Guest:So they saw it in you.
Guest:They saw it in us, you know.
Guest:Yeah, Clifford Antone came and picked us up.
Guest:Who's that guy?
Guest:He opened up a club in 1975 in July called Antones, and he brought all the great blues guys, muddy... 1975 he opened it?
Guest:Yeah, he opened it down in Austin and brought all these great blues musicians and kind of opened up the culture down there to these great artists and got people up on stage, and he introduced me to that world and...
Marc:So wait, so in 75, so he was the one that turned, like there was a, who, oh, Johnny Winter.
Guest:Johnny Winter.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Texan.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:But they, so that's where the Vaughn brothers started going.
Marc:Like they must have been pretty younger anyways to go to Antones.
Guest:I wasn't around for all that.
Marc:No, no, but like, but in the 75, so you think that he was sort of, he brought the blues to Austin in a way
Guest:that made an international kind of thing like you know like there was a blues thing in texas but he brought all those other cats back uh i think there was a boost i mean we had our own kind of situation there our own clubs you know yeah yeah grill or bobby bluebland and people would come like that but he kind of brought these young white folks and hippies out i think oh right right yeah you know these blues guys and so it started this kind of scene anyway um
Guest:I got some crazy cottonmouth.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You need some water?
Guest:Can I get some water?
Guest:Is that cool?
Guest:I'll go grab one.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:I was struggling.
Marc:So that guy, he managed you, Antone?
Guest:No, he didn't manage me.
Guest:He was just kind of a mentor, introduced me to people like Hubert Sumlin, Pinetap Perkins.
Guest:And how old were you?
Guest:I was 15.
Guest:So you met Hubert when you were 15?
Guest:I met him when I was 15 years old and got up on stage with him.
Guest:Really?
Marc:At 15?
Guest:At 15 years old.
Guest:Did he show you some shit?
Guest:He didn't show me anything, really, but he told me stories about playing with Howlin' Wolf and what that was like and being out on the road with him and when he left Howlin' Wolf's band to go play with Muddy Waters and all this, you know, this blues history that if you're into this stuff, you know, you kind of hear about.
Guest:Oh, yeah, from the old dude?
Guest:Yeah, and so you hear, you know, for him to invite us back and, you know, these young kids and he's telling us all these stories.
Guest:It was incredible.
Guest:It was incredible.
Marc:And Pinetop was still alive.
Marc:Who else did you meet when you were a kid?
Guest:Oh, man.
Marc:That had an impact on you.
Guest:I would have to say Jimmy Vaughn.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really had an impact.
Guest:Doyle Bramhall II.
Marc:Yeah, I just played with him.
Marc:Where were y'all at?
Marc:I played on a thing that we put together for a movie that I was a part of, like we did a song together, but then I saw him over at that Roots Music Festival, or that benefit that Jimmy hosted.
Marc:He's sort of an amazing player, Doyle.
Marc:Yeah, he's great.
Marc:He can get anything.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:And what's that other dude?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:He's one of the brothers.
Marc:Who's the guy that plays with Dylan?
Marc:Charlie Sexton.
Marc:Yeah, the Sexton.
Marc:There's a couple of them, aren't there?
Marc:Charlie Will.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But he's kind of a monster on the guitar too, huh?
Guest:Yeah, he's incredible.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, he's a beast, man.
Marc:And so you're there, you're 15.
Marc:Now did you know when you play with somebody like Hubert Sumlin and you're 15, that's heavy.
Marc:Like I just played with those guys and I'm 55.
Marc:And I've been playing my whole life, but I don't ever play with people.
Marc:It was like a little...
Marc:It's a little much to step up.
Marc:I played with Slash and Jimmy on stepping out, and I'd been practicing, but you start when you get nervous and you start to freak out.
Guest:My fingers were stiff.
Guest:I always mess it up somehow.
Guest:But if you got a good band there, you don't notice it, right?
Guest:You'll notice it, but they're taking care of you, right?
Guest:They got you covered.
Marc:But were you learning someone riffs?
Marc:I mean, by the time you played with Hubert, were you able to do any of those fucking wolf riffs?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I was really getting into it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:All that stuff.
Marc:He's a weird player too, huh?
Marc:Very unique.
Marc:Just thumb.
Marc:It's all thumb?
Marc:Do you play your thumb?
Marc:I kind of mix it all up.
Marc:Yeah, a lot of dudes are playing with their thumbs now.
Marc:Was that always the case?
Marc:Because I never even thought about playing with my fucking thumb until everybody, all these goddamn hipsters now, like Sweeney's like, yeah, I'm doing mostly my thumb now.
Marc:It's like, what the fuck is that about?
Marc:I didn't know that was a thing.
Marc:You sound upset about it.
Marc:Well, I'm upset about it because I just figured out how to use a pick.
Marc:I'm barely able to use a fucking pick.
Guest:They switch up on you now.
Marc:Yeah, I use these fat picks.
Marc:Look at that.
Marc:That's an Ed King pick from V-Picks.
Marc:I don't know how you use these things.
Marc:That's what I use.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I had a guitar teacher when I was a kid named Vaughn McMillan who used to play with a sanded quarter, like literally a quarter that he had taken the edge off.
Marc:And then I just always thought that hard picks were the way.
Marc:Lou Reed told me I should use a medium.
Marc:But then for some reason I saw Albert King's pick.
Marc:He uses a big old thing like that and maybe not as thick.
Marc:And that's just what I got to using.
Marc:this feels like a rock to me i know this but all right what do you use the little mediums a little medium nothing special but like the thumb thing i guess it was because like those cats like uh probably lightning rl burnside you know i think probably even magic sam i mean they're doing a thumb thing kind of like folk picking yeah but like i don't know how you get the speed how do you get the speed with your thumb and a lot of those dudes played with two fingers
Guest:I quit doing that so much after I gave up on Sam's boogie slash looking good.
Guest:So it's more about the pig.
Guest:It broke you.
Guest:It broke me, man.
Guest:That's a divert.
Guest:Cancel route.
Guest:I love watching that video, man.
Marc:The snare with the wallet on it.
Marc:Yeah, and it's not even his guitar.
Marc:That's the other thing.
Marc:It's like, this wasn't even his guitar.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he laid that out.
Guest:So you have no excuses.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How did you get into all that stuff?
Guest:For blues?
Guest:Yeah, just music in general.
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:It was just always, I think the more I think about it, it was probably my old man, he really liked oldie shit.
Marc:So I was always gravitated towards, I was sort of obsessed with Johnny B. Goode and with Chuck Berry.
Marc:And then from there I got back to the blues.
Marc:And I've been listening to it a long time, but I don't know why it moves me so much because I like playing it
Marc:And I'm constantly learning about it.
Marc:But I listen to all kinds of music.
Marc:But when I play, I play that stuff.
Marc:It's just the most satisfying.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So how does it go from there?
Marc:So you're 15.
Marc:When do you start getting big attention?
Marc:So you played with someone there.
Marc:Who else did you play with when you were a kid?
Guest:I went out on tour with Jimmy Vaughn.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And the Thunderbirds?
Guest:No, it was Jimmy Vaughn and the Tilda World Band.
Marc:Was that with Billy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, it was Billy Pittman.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He had Luann Barton singing with him.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:And so I was 19, right out of high school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And went out on tour with him, went all over the U.S.
Guest:Did you have a band or were you playing with them?
Guest:I did have a band.
Guest:We opened up.
Guest:I had a band.
Guest:Jay Moeller on drums, James Bullard on bass, Matt Farrell on keys, and we followed them around.
Guest:Drove myself.
Marc:Mostly Texas or all over the country?
Guest:All over the country.
Guest:All over the country.
Guest:I followed him around, and that's when people started kind of... Playing clubs?
Guest:Playing clubs.
Guest:I was too young to be in the club, so I would play, and then I'd have to sit outside.
Marc:Really?
Marc:While he was on?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And maybe sometimes they'd let me hang out.
Guest:Did you come on to play with him for a couple tunes?
Guest:I would sometimes, but they wouldn't let me in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Were you playing originals?
Guest:I was playing a couple of originals, which were basically like the same idea of what my Don't Owe You A Thing is to Sam's Boogie.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So it was like they were...
Marc:Yeah, right, right.
Marc:They were like... Shitty blues songs.
Guest:Okay, shitty blues songs.
Guest:Shitty wannabes.
Guest:Yeah, bar blues songs.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, 19, what do I know?
Guest:Somebody said, you don't know anything about the blues.
Guest:You wait till you get your heart broken.
Marc:So I was doing that and just doing covers.
Marc:Is that true, do you think?
Marc:Because that's the weird thing about it.
Marc:What is the difference between shitty bar blues and...
Marc:The real thing, you know, because like it's one of those weird things.
Marc:I think it sort of broke the music in that, you know, any, you know, any half asses could play it and play it good enough to get people's feet moving.
Marc:But, you know, what is the defining factor?
Marc:Is it just a stylistic thing?
Marc:Do you know?
Marc:Do you know when you changed from that?
Marc:Do you know when you shifted?
Guest:could you feel the shift from I'm just doing a cover to like now I'm in it yeah when you could when the lyrics that you're singing you can visualize uh huh what where the actual emotion comes from right yeah you know
Marc:yeah yeah because like i i've always wondered about that yeah that the blues just became this you know just like everybody could do it and then you start listening even start listening to some of the sort of like white boogie bands you know i can't heat even but you know but then if you really listen to can't heat they're like they were real students of the those guys some of those dudes were like studying the
Marc:and then they'd find their own thing.
Marc:I think that must be it, is when you make it your own.
Marc:Yeah, they gotta be your stories.
Marc:You gotta be in your own shoes.
Marc:So when you start touring with Jimmy, did that change things?
Marc:How far along before you did the record, the first record?
Guest:um i was making records all throughout you were kind of funding myself doing the broke starving artist thing by choice you know yeah but so that was i didn't really get into serious music business type stuff i guess you could say yeah you
Marc:Were we making singles, EPs?
Guest:I was making singles.
Guest:I was making EPs.
Guest:I was drinking.
Guest:I was hanging out.
Guest:I was partying.
Guest:Living the life.
Guest:Living the life.
Guest:I was taking my time.
Guest:Not wanting to rush anything.
Guest:Not wanting to be sure about who I was as a...
Guest:artists and just as a man and I'm seeing young people who became famous.
Guest:You're also seeing young people who become dead.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:So I was just trying to figure it out and live without being in public.
Guest:The whole idea, that kind of freaked me out.
Guest:So I was...
Guest:I was scared to jump.
Guest:I was scared to take that leap.
Guest:I was just kind of figuring it out.
Marc:And I think you sort of reckon with that in that song on Black and... Was it Black and Blue?
Marc:The Life.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're like, is this what it is?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or is this... Do I got to not be this?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:It was cool.
Guest:Having a reputation around town and being able to move around and things.
Marc:What was the reputation?
Guest:Just being a talented musician.
Guest:But not being a fuck-up.
Guest:Yeah, not being a fuck-up.
Guest:I was having a good time.
Guest:You weren't a disaster.
Guest:Nah.
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:Some people might say different.
Guest:That's your point of view.
Guest:Yeah, I think I was all right.
Guest:Fuck those people.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:But, yeah, just, I think, who was it?
Guest:Alejandro Escovedo maybe said that Austin is like a velvet rut or something.
Guest:A velvet rut.
Guest:Something like that, where it's like a comfortable place to, you can make it, but it's so comfortable to stay there that you don't really need to go anywhere and you don't want to.
Marc:Right.
Marc:No, I did a joke when I was there.
Marc:I said, if you're a... I don't remember how I framed it, but the idea was, you know, if you're a musician in this town, you've probably said this once or twice.
Marc:Hey, I'm back.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:Yo.
Guest:Perfect.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:So good.
Guest:I'm just seeing faces.
Guest:Walking back into the club like, oh, man, how was it?
Guest:I'm back here now.
Guest:Right?
Guest:You know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Couldn't, you know, just things didn't really work out.
Guest:And then eventually you hear the story.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:From a couple of different sides.
Marc:That is perfect.
Marc:Yeah, well, that is the thing about Austin.
Marc:So you could have done that.
Marc:So how did it change for you?
Marc:I mean, you knew that.
Marc:You were in the groove.
Guest:I was in the groove, but I was also...
Guest:uh out of money yeah and i didn't want to do anything else and i'm sitting in my house and i've got all this gear that i've collected and all these songs that are sitting on the shelf and i'm kind of scared to put out because it's not blues and i'm thinking that the blues police are gonna come shut me down oh interesting
Marc:so that was a thing it was kind of a thing you were dug in with that community oh yeah it's like comedy you know you don't want to be a hack right and you know you you know you you want to be true to the right i'm struggling you know so you that was like a a dark night of the soul like
Marc:I gotta do an R&B song.
Guest:I might start to, you know, gotta get to dancing or something.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And that was a struggle.
Guest:It was a struggle.
Guest:And thinking back on it, it was stupid how in my head I was about it.
Marc:Well, what you don't realize is that whoever you think the blues police are or whoever that audience is is still pretty small at that point.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right?
Marc:But it's everything.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:It's your whole life.
Marc:It's your world.
Marc:Because you got to walk into that club and if you got a hit song that's got a little too much hip hop in it or it's a little too weak...
Guest:Look at this motherfucker.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What are you, Beck?
Marc:You want to try to get your manhood back?
Marc:Can you still play your guitar?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:This fool don't even know what a shuffle is anymore.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's the shuffle.
Guest:That is the Texas thing, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, so you're having that moment.
Guest:So, yeah, I'm sitting in the dark.
Guest:I'm lighting these candles and, you know, scraping my last little bit of herb off the table.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What the fuck, man?
Guest:And Doyle Bramhawk calls me and says, yo, man, Clapton is thinking about having you for this Crossroads Festival 2010 in Chicago.
Guest:I was like, do not fuck with me right now.
Guest:I'm fragile.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've got very little herb left.
Guest:Yeah, it's fragile, man.
Guest:I got one packet of ramen left.
Guest:Don't fuck with me.
Guest:And so sure enough, I get the call, man.
Guest:I get flown out there.
Guest:Changed my life.
Guest:Put me in front of 27,000 people.
Guest:Did Eric call you?
Guest:He did not call me.
Guest:I got a letter in the mail.
Guest:A letter?
Marc:I got a nice letter in the mail.
Marc:Wow, that's old school.
Guest:Very old school.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:And you had never met him?
Marc:I never met him.
Guest:I never met him.
Guest:I still don't really talk to him.
Guest:I went up to him at the festival, and I was like, thanks for having me.
Guest:He goes, thanks for coming.
Guest:I walked away.
Guest:I was like, all right, cool.
Guest:I see how this is going to be.
Marc:Respect.
Marc:I feel like he's not a big talker.
Marc:Nah.
Guest:so okay so you do that and then you tour with that uh you do the crossroads thing i do the crossroads thing and then some label guys come up and they say kid yeah you know yeah i think we can work with you and sure enough and just from there go out on tour and it's been cool you know
Marc:So the label guys, what record they put out for you?
Marc:They put out Black and Blue for me.
Guest:Black and Blue.
Marc:That was the first big record.
Guest:That was the first, yeah, big record.
Guest:Andy Oliphant, you know, I got to give up to him.
Guest:He believed in me and, you know, took me up to that company.
Marc:Which company?
Guest:Warner Brothers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And said, hey, man, this kid's got something.
Guest:And so I was able to do Black and Blue, which was cool.
Marc:And then toured the fuck out of it?
Marc:Toured the fuck out of it.
Marc:And that was then, when did you take on... Zapata.
Marc:When did he become part of the lineup?
Marc:Because I think he's a great guitar player.
Guest:Yeah, Zapata became part of the lineup.
Guest:We went to school together.
Guest:We were in high school together.
Guest:He was a year older than me.
Guest:Did he always wear the poncho?
Guest:Nah, he was a clean-cut dude, like, you know, nice polo shirts, button-down, you know, boots, cool dude, you know, drove a Camaro.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He was that dude, you know what I mean?
Marc:But always a player?
Guest:Always a player.
Guest:Yeah, from Dallas.
Guest:So he came down and we started kind of hanging.
Guest:At first, his friends would come up to me and be like, my boy Zapata can smoke you on guitar.
Guest:Like, you ain't shit.
Guest:And I'm like, what?
Guest:Who is this guy?
Guest:So I kind of stayed away from him and he would just kind of like, you know.
Guest:yeah go through the halls or whatever and so we ended up hanging out at a party ended up becoming close you know kicking it every day then he's staying at my house one time and i'm working on these demos and i got this cd that's like tucked into my cd shelf you know it's like an unmarked thing that i know where it is and it's my shit yeah i'm not you know i'm still working on it right
Guest:He finds it somehow while I'm asleep.
Guest:I wake up in the morning and he's like, hey man, I found your music.
Guest:Your band would sound better if I was in it.
Guest:And that was it?
Guest:That was it.
Guest:Had you played with him at all?
Guest:We played a little bit.
Guest:We go down to these blues jams and this stuff and we get up on stage together.
Marc:Was there a competitive nature to it?
Marc:Was there like a sort of like a dozens version of playing guitar?
Marc:You know, like in the sense of like, were you trying to show each other up?
Marc:See, that always intimidated me.
Marc:And also knowing that with blues, it's not about speed, man.
Marc:But, you know, what?
Marc:It is?
Marc:No, no, no.
Guest:I don't know what it is, but there is this competitive nature.
Guest:thing you know it's like you know if you play super fast I'm gonna play one fucking note and it's gonna mean everything you know what I mean that's the challenge of the guy who can't play fast exactly exactly it's the phrasing man it ain't the speed exactly there's all this conversation you know I hate guitar players man you know what I mean but it's uh
Guest:it's, it's fun.
Guest:It's, it's competitive thing because you don't want to get left behind.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like even to this day, Zapato, he'll be on stage and we'll be at soundcheck and he'll play some like new lick that he's learning.
Guest:I'd be like, what was that?
Guest:He'd be like, don't worry about it.
Yeah.
Guest:and then he'd bring it out yeah and then he's got something you know what i mean yeah yeah still to this day you know it's like man zapata solo was badass yeah all right you gotta you gotta give him something he got to i guess poncho man he's got he's got the poncho yeah poncho's got he needs something for poncho yeah exactly
Marc:Yeah, but he plays, what the hell is that guitar he plays?
Marc:He plays a weird guitar, right?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:He won't tell me.
Guest:He won't tell me what gear he's playing.
Guest:All his pedals are taped up.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:And you're playing with him every night?
Marc:I have no idea what he's doing over there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you're happy he's there?
Marc:I'm happy he's there.
Marc:I'm happy.
Marc:But he was with you on that first tour?
Marc:He's been with you all that time?
Marc:Yeah, the whole time.
Marc:The whole time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I saw you open for the Stones.
Marc:In San Diego.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And then I saw you with Derek here, I think, with Tedeschi.
Marc:Did you open for Trucks?
Marc:At the Greek, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, at the Greek.
Marc:I saw that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I love that crew.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Tight band.
Marc:Trucks is like, he's like an orchestra leader.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, he's such a kind of a heads down kind of doing kind of guy.
Marc:But when you watch him, you're like, oh, he's running all of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Marc:He just whoops over and that's it.
Marc:You know, hey, turn around.
Marc:Here's where we're stopping.
Guest:I'm done now.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:He's so subtle, man.
Guest:He makes me reevaluate my life.
Guest:He does?
Guest:Sometimes.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, just he's so cool with it.
Guest:And it's like, man, I make the craziest looking faces and I'm on my...
Guest:And he can just get these beautiful sounds, powerful, and he's just standing there.
Marc:He's like one of those, he's a savant.
Marc:He's one of those guys where somehow or another he was just born with all the licks in his head.
Marc:He just had to find them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Other people have to learn them.
Marc:They were already in his wiring.
Guest:Yep.
Yep.
Marc:Yeah, he it was interesting.
Marc:I talked to him that the whole struggle to not be to be able to play like he played when he was like 10, you know, and then be brought on stage and shown to the world at that age with what he could do.
Marc:Like he had to fight the freak thing.
Marc:Like he didn't want to just be this weird little like watch the little guy do this.
Marc:Like he had to after all that, he had to actually fight.
Marc:make it real right and not be some sort of dog and pony show wow i didn't think about that yeah man it's like they're like we're gonna bring out this kid that's gonna blow you away and like a lot of times i think those kids that are they just end up like no yeah that was me when i was seven i work on cars now i don't really do it you know what i mean like right right like people who you know forced to take piano lessons and don't want to get near a
Marc:Well, more so like they just have this natural ability and they get blown out early because everyone thinks it's some sort of freak show.
Marc:And then they can't live up to it.
Marc:How do you make that real?
Marc:How do you follow up being able to do Dwayne Allman solos when you're 10 to become your own dude?
Marc:How is it not a gimmick?
Marc:That's the real, you know what I mean?
Marc:Ah, yeah, I got you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I got you.
Marc:But he certainly took it way out there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He seems to be doing all right.
Marc:Oh, he's great.
Marc:Yeah, when you play with guys like that, you played with Clapton, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You open for them?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But you didn't talk much to them?
Guest:Nah, I'd stay out the way.
Marc:Yeah, but when you share a stage with those guys and you trade licks with them, does that make you a better player?
Marc:Are you more aware of it?
Marc:Can you just relax into that?
Marc:No, I'm not relaxed at all.
Guest:I'm not relaxed at all.
Guest:I walk past.
Marc:I think I felt that about you.
Marc:I think that was one of the reasons where I'm like, he seems pretty intense, a little hard on himself, this guy.
Marc:He's not quite having fun up there, but luckily he's playing blues.
Marc:So...
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, that's a great observation.
Guest:It's embarrassing, but it's the truth.
Guest:But, you know, like Jimmy Vaughn, he'll come up on stage, we'll play together, and he'll look at my pedal board, and he'll be like, what the fuck is all that?
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Play on stage with Clapton, get done with the finale.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he'll be like, oh, you like reverb, don't you?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:Fuck.
Fuck.
Guest:It messes with me.
Guest:So the next gig, I'm like, no reverb.
Guest:No pedals.
Guest:No pedals.
Guest:I'm going to play clean like Robert Cray for the rest of the time.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Right into the amp.
Guest:So no, there's no settling into that.
Guest:I'm like, man, I'm just ready to do my own shit.
Guest:Oh, the slight dig.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:You like reverb, don't you?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:You know, I broke my hand last year doing some dumb shit, and I went up, the first gig I played was Love Rocks in New York, and I'm playing with Keith Richards and Robert Gray, and I've got my hand in a cast, and I'm trying to figure it out, and I come straight from the doctor in this new thing.
Marc:Yeah, you probably sounded exactly like Keith.
Marc:Just clomping around on the rhythm.
Guest:Yeah, but he goes, he says to me, he goes, after the first take, he goes, you're just here for the pictures, aren't you?
Guest:I was like, fuck.
Guest:So these experiences, people are like, oh, how are they?
Guest:They come with these jabs and make me reevaluate my whole thing.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Just here for the pictures.
Guest:It's rough out here.
Guest:I mean, is it the same way with you guys in the comedy stuff?
No.
Marc:sure i mean i i don't know that we we we yeah it's definitely the same way you know but in terms of like jokes and stuff we're not yeah the problem is is that compliments are rare and and when they when they do happen they always come with they always take a little they they give but they take a little hey i was working on a bit like that yours is funny you know you know
Marc:I got a bit that's kind of like that, but it's not the same.
Marc:I like yours.
Marc:I'm like, what the fuck?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you just got to know when you hit it.
Marc:Like, as you get older, I think you know.
Marc:But if you're hard on yourself, there's always going to be one dude where you're sort of like, yeah, why can't I just make it as easy as that?
Marc:But you don't know what the hell they're going through.
Marc:But these old guys, I mean, that's the weird thing about old guys is that they're not going to get out of the way.
Marc:You know, they're just not going to, you know what I mean?
Marc:And with that world, because that guitar world, certainly how music has changed, the blues guitar world is a smaller world.
Marc:It was always sort of a small world.
Marc:So you got this handful of old guys that are still hanging on.
Marc:And then there's only a few young guys that even want to fucking do it anyways.
Marc:right like you're it you're the guy now right so there's a lot of pressure on you but these old guys are going to be they don't they don't think in terms of like yeah you think like when you think about the real tradition of it that there's a tradition of this thing that should be carried on you know like somewhere along the line i don't know if it's with the white dudes but somewhere that stopped and became like the fuck is this guy think he is you know so
Marc:yeah right so like like you know it's like whatever the tradition was you know it's not you know it kind of because you can really see it with certain dudes and you can definitely see it in you but like it should be a completely supportive place because like this music is barely alive you fuckers you know like why don't you just why don't we all get on board and keep trying to we're trying to make a living here right yeah fan the flame
Marc:Yeah, why not?
Marc:Do you find that?
Marc:Like, how do your records, how'd that record sell?
Marc:How'd Black and Blue do?
Guest:It did all right, you know.
Guest:Honestly, I don't really pay that much attention to the numbers and stuff like that.
Marc:Just as long as they make you make it?
Guest:I don't know specifics.
Marc:But just as long as they let you make another one?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, as long as they call me back and go, hey, it's time for another one.
Marc:But it seems to me that, like, this record is very, you know, it's very honest and, you know, you take on some shit, you know.
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:You know, race, love, things, you know.
Marc:And there's a lot of textures to the songs.
Marc:You know, you do some R&B stuff, you do some old school R&B, you do some straight up blues, and then you do, you know, even moving towards R&B hip hop a little, right?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, so, like, it's a well-versed record.
Marc:But it seems like what really put you on the map were those live records, right?
Marc:Yeah, the live records really did that for me.
Marc:Because it still seems that there's enough people out there looking for a guitar hero of a certain type that they want, you know what I mean?
Marc:And you must feel the pressure, like, well, I gotta do that.
Marc:That's the extension of that blues thing.
Marc:It's like, I gotta go out there and lay this shit.
Guest:Yeah, but you know what?
Guest:I've been in my comments lately on social media, you know, and I saw something that said, I thought this guy was supposed to say rock blues.
Guest:Guess not.
Guest:And it didn't hurt my feelings as bad as I thought it would.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:So I'm cool.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like, I don't feel any... What if there had been three?
Guest:Maybe a little bit more.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I might have started to tear up.
Guest:But, I mean, it...
Guest:pressure to do what, man?
Guest:Like, fuck.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's not that serious.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:It's really not that serious.
Marc:And who are those fucking dudes?
Marc:The worst thing about those dudes and those kind of comments is that it plays into the same feeling when you're with just a little bit of herb.
Marc:Like, I can't let these fucking old, angry, bitter motherfuckers who are back...
Guest:You know, dictate.
Guest:You know, but there's still...
Marc:You know, there's still something that wants to please those dudes, right?
Marc:Because somehow or another, we get it twisted in our head that those are the guys with integrity.
Marc:It's like, what else have they got?
Marc:They're fucking bitter and they do one thing.
Guest:You know, is that integrity?
Guest:Did they even try to do the other thing?
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:But those are the guys whose approval we need so desperately.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:So right.
Guest:Thanks for breaking that down.
Guest:I'm here to help you, pal.
Marc:I appreciate it.
Marc:I didn't know I needed this like that.
Marc:Okay, so this record just came out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're touring with This Land, it's called, right?
Marc:This Land is what it's called, yeah.
Marc:And now, did you picture this as a whole piece?
Marc:I mean, when you call something This Land and you're dealing with the stuff you're dealing on there, when these songs came together, do you think in terms of an album or do you think in terms of a song, really?
Guest:I think it's in terms of a song.
Guest:I'm just making a song to make a song.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't think about it that much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just do it, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's when the people who are trying to make this thing move come in with their thoughts and opinions.
Marc:Maybe not this one.
Marc:How about this one?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:This one's got a hook.
Marc:This will be the single.
Guest:Whatever, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, yeah, you know, it's like I didn't pick the single, I didn't pick, you know, the title of the album.
Guest:You know, I'm just trying to figure this out.
Guest:You didn't?
Guest:No, it was, you know, there was like deadlines, you know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'm busy, I got stuff to do and, you know, family and stuff.
Guest:It's like, hey, we got to put this out now.
Guest:We got to do this.
Guest:We got to do this.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm dealing with shit.
Guest:Call it what you want, man.
Guest:I don't give a fuck.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:really yeah for this one you know at that particular time where i was you know i was like you know we've got these deadlines and we need what are you going to call it it's like we need an answer tomorrow they're trying to it's like i don't know i just got out of the studio i'm trying to sit back and figure out what i did you know let me breathe and and understand what it is yeah yeah sure when you're writing or creating yeah before you come in and tell me how to move like
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Back the fuck up.
Guest:Yeah, let me see how it all fits together.
Guest:Hold on.
Guest:I just did the thing.
Guest:Yeah, but we got to move this.
Guest:All right, then call it what you want.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Were you mad?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I wasn't mad.
Guest:I wasn't mad at all.
Guest:I was just like, I can't think right now.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And the pressure is making me a little bit crazy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you guys can do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's how it worked for this one.
Marc:But I mean, you seem to cover, you know, you took on a lot of shit here.
Guest:Yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on.
Guest:I mean, it's just like people go through shit in their life, you know what I mean?
Marc:How long does it take you to write all this stuff?
Guest:It took me a couple years, I think.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:In between, you know, life happened and we tour so much.
Guest:And you got married and shit.
Marc:Got married and shit.
Marc:Is that at the same time?
Guest:Babies and stuff.
Guest:Yeah, I make babies and children.
Marc:You make two?
Marc:How many?
Guest:I got two.
Guest:I got two little ones.
Guest:But yeah, so it just seems like it works out that I'll make a record and then a child is coming.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's a lot.
Marc:Same time?
Marc:Everything hits at once.
Marc:Both born at the same time?
Marc:The kid and the record?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Pretty much.
Marc:So where are you playing next?
Marc:Where does it go from here?
Guest:Where's it go from here?
Guest:We start up on tour.
Guest:We're hitting Miami.
Guest:We'll go all over the U.S.
Guest:We're going to Australia.
Guest:We're doing Europe, doing Fuji Rock.
Guest:What's that?
Guest:Beach Band, yeah.
Guest:And how you drawing?
Guest:Pretty good?
Guest:Are we well?
Guest:You selling tickets?
Guest:We're doing all right.
Guest:For the most part, I think we're selling out.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:And people are liking the new record?
Marc:They're loving it.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:Yeah, I love it.
Marc:It's been good.
Marc:And when you look out at the audience, who are you seeing primarily?
Marc:Is it pretty eclectic, pretty diverse?
Guest:Yeah, it's becoming more diverse.
Guest:In the beginning, it was because it was supposed to be this rock, blues savior guy.
Marc:Guitar hero, man.
Guest:There's a lot of Hendrix t-shirts and ponytails.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Standing there with their arms crossed.
Guest:I could do it better.
Guest:than this asshole, you know?
Guest:So it's kind of changed up, and I see a lot of everybody.
Guest:It's cool, man, that the music stuff can do that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, like, what you do, too, is like... Well, we're limited, but yeah, but no, music's magic.
Marc:You know, comedy, you know, you can be... The clown's good for a few years.
Guest:Ah, man, I don't think so.
Guest:I think it's heavier than that and much more of a...
Guest:We need that shit.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:We need both.
Marc:Yeah, certainly.
Marc:We need it.
Marc:We got to hold the line, you know.
Marc:It's up to the musicians, the comics, and the fucking journalists at this point because everything else is falling apart.
Marc:Yeah, we got to team up, man.
Marc:Yeah, you got to team up and make sure humanity is represented.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Push back.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:All right, buddy.
Marc:Well, have a great tour, man.
Marc:thank you what are you doing are you touring and what do you got i am i'm gonna go well i'm finishing up shooting this show i'm on and then like yeah i'm gonna do some clubs i'll be out in texas at some point i'll do dallas houston and i'll do austin and uh yeah i'm gonna you know do some clubs i'm gonna do some theaters and i'm gonna go to the uk for a few dates and i'm gonna shoot a special in the fall that's the plan awesome right now i'm building the hour you know yeah building the thing
Marc:You know, I'm doing that Sunday, like tomorrow night, Sunday night, so the last few Sundays I've been doing this little theater, like seats 200, and I just, you know, fucking try to figure it out.
Marc:You got you.
Marc:Yeah, that's how I jam.
Marc:I understand that.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I feel you.
Marc:Good talking to you.
Marc:Likewise.
Likewise.
Marc:that's it that's me and gary clark jr i like talking to guitar players i was pretty excited apparently i had a lot you know i felt like i did a lot of talking on that one and also as i mentioned before gary's new album is this land that's available wherever you want to get your records or your sounds or your things that you put in your ears go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all those new tour dates i brought up you can still send emails
Marc:You know, asking questions or saying things about our thousandth episode or about the entire arc of our show.
Marc:And yeah, I'll play a little guitar now.
Marc:I will play a little guitar.
Guest:Gary didn't, but I will.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Boomer lives!