Episode 995 - Mandy Moore

Episode 995 • Released February 18, 2019 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters what's happening how's everybody doing

00:00:17Marc:Are you okay?

00:00:18Marc:This is a little tricky, these next couple of shows.

00:00:22Marc:Well, this show and Thursday were pre-recorded last week because my business partner and genius producer, Mr. Brendan McDonald, is taking a well-deserved vacation.

00:00:36Marc:So we had to get these in the can.

00:00:39Marc:The only reason I'm bringing it up is because of the Buster Kitten...

00:00:44Marc:arc the the emergency of his illness is now is now an arc uh things are are better with buster and i'll tell you about that i do want to say this we have the 1000th episode uh coming up yeah that's that's a lot it's like almost a decade and uh well okay and

00:01:06Marc:So you know I like to read your emails on the air.

00:01:08Marc:So I want to hear any questions you might have as we approach this milestone, 1,000 episodes.

00:01:16Marc:Just email me.

00:01:18Marc:You know, any questions about any of the thousand episodes of the show or any past guests that you want some follow up on it, you can ask me questions personally, questions about what goes on off the mic and behind the scenes or any advice you think I might be able to dispense.

00:01:35Marc:I'm willing to give that a shot.

00:01:37Marc:If you want to just talk about your relationship with the show, I would just like to hear from you all in all these different ways in any way you want.

00:01:44Marc:I'm inviting you.

00:01:46Marc:to go ahead and send that.

00:01:50Marc:Send these things to me at wtfpod at gmail.com.

00:01:54Marc:And if you could get us the questions by the end of the month, that would be good.

00:01:58Marc:Anything you want to know, anything you want to say, anything I can maybe tell you, just anything as we head into this big show, the thousandth show.

00:02:09Marc:So did I mention that Mandy Moore is here today?

00:02:13Marc:What a charming woman.

00:02:16Marc:She came with cookies.

00:02:19Marc:She came with fucking cookies.

00:02:22Marc:And, you know, I'm a little I've been a little crazy with the diet.

00:02:25Marc:And it's funny.

00:02:26Marc:She brought a box of cookies.

00:02:27Marc:I didn't even realize what they were.

00:02:29Marc:I just kind of was like, oh, my God.

00:02:30Marc:Fuck.

00:02:31Marc:Yeah.

00:02:32Marc:Why?

00:02:32Marc:But thank you.

00:02:34Marc:And then after she left, I realized they were Amara cookies, which are healthier.

00:02:38Marc:And I put them in the freezer.

00:02:40Marc:And I got to be honest with you, I had Mandy Moore on, like, it's been a couple weeks.

00:02:45Marc:And I only ate two of them.

00:02:47Marc:And just, you know, not even the day of.

00:02:51Marc:I put them in the freezer, as I said.

00:02:53Marc:And then what you do is...

00:02:55Marc:You stick them in the warming oven, just put the little oven on warm, put them in there for five minutes, and it's like they're fresh out of the oven.

00:03:04Marc:And I ate those fuckers.

00:03:05Marc:The weird thing is that, I don't know, maybe it's because I'm eating so clean.

00:03:09Marc:I ate one cookie, the next day I felt like I had four beers.

00:03:11Marc:I was hungover.

00:03:13Marc:Is that a thing that happens?

00:03:15Marc:Kind of fucked me up a little bit, a little bit.

00:03:18Marc:So Buster Kitten, as you know, the last you heard, unless you're on Twitter, you know, he was in the hospital and it was not looking great.

00:03:28Marc:He had the kidney failure.

00:03:30Marc:And then I ended up getting an ultrasound and then I ended up getting a cancer test.

00:03:34Marc:The day of both of those things, his numbers had come down a lot.

00:03:37Marc:But the vet that I went to, she was like, yeah, these numbers, they came down, but don't get excited.

00:03:43Marc:It's probably just the fluids.

00:03:45Marc:I don't know.

00:03:46Marc:So we did these other tests, but it just like was just a bummer.

00:03:49Marc:And I was going to leave him there for two more nights.

00:03:52Marc:Because I don't give a fuck about money, apparently, because I love this little cat.

00:03:56Marc:And I don't have kids.

00:03:57Marc:I don't have a wife.

00:03:58Marc:I don't have debt.

00:03:59Marc:And I'm not a big spender.

00:04:00Marc:So we're going to save a little fucking buster if we can.

00:04:03Marc:That's the way this is going to work.

00:04:05Marc:So the next day, I locked into this idea that she was just basically telling me that there's no hope for this cat.

00:04:13Marc:And I thought I had been in denial.

00:04:16Marc:I was in one of the stages of grief.

00:04:18Marc:So, you know, the day, the morning of the ultrasound and ultimately the genetic cancer test, she calls and she's like, these numbers are they're almost normal now.

00:04:29Marc:I don't know.

00:04:30Marc:And I'm like, well, what do you mean?

00:04:31Marc:Like, I don't know.

00:04:32Marc:They're almost normal.

00:04:34Marc:We're going to let him out today.

00:04:35Marc:And he doesn't have cancer.

00:04:37Marc:So I brought him home.

00:04:39Marc:I went down there.

00:04:40Marc:I picked him up.

00:04:41Marc:I brought him home.

00:04:43Marc:I've got kidney food for him.

00:04:45Marc:And I've got subcutaneous fluids.

00:04:49Marc:I have to skin pop my cat.

00:04:52Marc:I got to shoot up my cat in the morning.

00:04:55Marc:I got to get him an IV drip going into him for a little bit of water, fluids.

00:05:00Marc:So that was a new experience.

00:05:01Marc:See, we're learning new things.

00:05:03Marc:It's funny when you have to do something you've never done like that before and you got to stick a needle into a cat and sit there with it while this fluid drips in.

00:05:11Marc:I had to get in the right mindset.

00:05:12Marc:It's weird what I learned about my brain is that I do prepare.

00:05:18Marc:I may not write things down, but in my mind I'm like,

00:05:21Marc:OK, you know, get a plan.

00:05:23Marc:You know, you know how to do this.

00:05:25Marc:You were shown how to do this.

00:05:26Marc:Just do it.

00:05:27Marc:Be confident about it.

00:05:29Marc:Be, you know, be present and do it.

00:05:32Marc:And that's sort of like I do that a lot and I don't really realize it.

00:05:35Marc:I don't know if that's preparedness, but but like I got to get myself psyched up.

00:05:39Marc:I guess everybody does where I'm like, you know, don't doubt yourself.

00:05:43Marc:just do it just put the needle in if if something fucks up it fucks up you're not going to kill the cat unless you know you do something insanely stupid like jam it into his skull so i gave him the fluids but he's eating like mad because he hasn't eaten in days and he's he's he's very excited and happy and rubbing his head on everything and purring and again by the time you hear this a lot of days will have gone by but this is what's happening so this is where you're checking in

00:06:11Marc:And I don't know what's going to happen.

00:06:12Marc:Hopefully progress will continue.

00:06:14Marc:And that's good news.

00:06:18Marc:I really thought he was a goner.

00:06:19Marc:I'd really got it into my head that I was going to have to put him down or I was going to bring him home and he was going to be incredibly compromised.

00:06:25Marc:Now, granted, this is only day one of him being home, so we'll see what happens.

00:06:29Marc:But, yeah, I'm cautiously optimistic.

00:06:33Marc:So the Buster emergency situation has been downgraded now to an arc.

00:06:39Fucking...

00:06:40Marc:But either way, it's it's just interesting with veterinarians and with regular doctors, how much they don't know.

00:06:45Marc:And, you know, what any one animal is going to do, human or non-human.

00:06:50Marc:And just that we don't know if it was a toxic thing or infection.

00:06:55Marc:But I guess what it isn't, it seems, is chronic renal failure.

00:06:59Marc:Not today.

00:07:00Marc:Not today.

00:07:00Marc:And, you know, it's ironic is that Mandy Moore and myself, we start right at the beginning of our conversation.

00:07:06Marc:We're talking about cats.

00:07:08Marc:And it was two weeks ago.

00:07:09Marc:And I was talking about we were talking about dead dying cats.

00:07:12Marc:I was talking about, you know, having to deal with the inevitability of my old cats going.

00:07:17Marc:But I was like, but I got this new guy.

00:07:19Marc:He's only two and he'll be around for a while.

00:07:21Marc:And then fucking ironically, he's still around.

00:07:24Marc:But, you know, he's the one who got sick.

00:07:27Marc:But he's okay.

00:07:28Marc:He's okay as of this recording.

00:07:30Marc:Whoo, man.

00:07:32Marc:I got to pee.

00:07:34Marc:Is that a... I'll just hold it.

00:07:37Marc:So, okay.

00:07:39Marc:This is something you need to know.

00:07:42Marc:On a lighter note.

00:07:44Marc:Okay, so I've been listening to a little bit of Steely Dan, and we've covered it.

00:07:51Marc:Some guy said I was going to be cursed, and I'm not sure there wasn't a message in that.

00:07:59Marc:Like, as I told you,

00:08:01Marc:And some of you know, like for years, I was just sort of like the Steely Dan annoying people like Steely Dan annoying, you know, just boring, sterile, soulless or whatever.

00:08:10Marc:But then a couple of weeks ago, as I talked about here on the podcast, I I took turn to corner because I heard it in a different way.

00:08:19Marc:But then I kind of got like then I was like, I got to listen to all of it.

00:08:22Marc:So I listened to all of it.

00:08:24Marc:and i like it and the songs that i remember uh liking from you know just hearing them constantly i you know they took a different life uh in my mind a little bit but like again i like it i get it i like it not crazy about it but here's the problem it's it's like okay how do i say this steely dan in my head i believe is starting to feed on the other music i enjoy in my head

00:08:51Marc:I think it's got a viral component to it.

00:08:54Marc:I think it's parasitical.

00:08:57Marc:Steely Dan in your head is like a parasite that eats the other music that you like.

00:09:02Marc:Because all of a sudden, all the songs that are stuck in my head are Steely Dan songs.

00:09:07Marc:And if I want to listen to like, I want to listen to some stooges and I got Steely Dan song on my head.

00:09:11Marc:It's not that I'm going to, to listen to this, to Steely Dan, but I think it's, I think the music that I put in my head already is starting to feed on some of my other feelings about other music.

00:09:24Marc:And I got to put a stop to that.

00:09:26Marc:I have to get some anti-Dan going.

00:09:29Marc:There's got to be some sort of vaccination.

00:09:33Marc:So now I've got to put together a Steely Dan disease vaccination song list in order to sort of balance my brain and perhaps cleanse it from the viral nature of Steely Dan music.

00:09:49Marc:So that said, this is the price I'm paying for finally learning how to appreciate Steely Dan at this age.

00:09:59Marc:Maybe if I was younger, this tragedy wouldn't have happened.

00:10:02Marc:But because I was older and I dumped it all into my head at once, something bad is happening up there.

00:10:07Marc:But I think I have the remedy for it.

00:10:10Marc:I have plenty of music to start pushing back as an antiviral against the Steely Dan fucking earworms that I've unleashed in my head.

00:10:22Marc:Oh.

00:10:24Marc:I'll be all right.

00:10:26Marc:So Mandy Moore was lovely.

00:10:27Marc:She was one of these people that came over and right away I'm like, oh, I am in the presence of a star.

00:10:32Marc:She's just got that charisma where you're kind of like, I'm sitting across from a special person.

00:10:38Marc:Yeah.

00:10:39Marc:And she brought cookies.

00:10:40Marc:So I don't know, maybe they're connected.

00:10:42Marc:But again, we did start talking about cats.

00:10:46Marc:And the irony is, is that, you know, Buster was the guy.

00:10:49Marc:I was like, you know, that guy is going to be great.

00:10:51Marc:And he he got sick, but he's better.

00:10:53Marc:He's better today.

00:10:55Marc:Mandy, of course, is on the show.

00:10:57Marc:This is us.

00:10:58Marc:It airs Tuesday nights at 9 p.m.

00:11:00Marc:Eastern on NBC.

00:11:02Marc:And this is me talking to her.

00:11:10Marc:I don't think he lasted that one.

00:11:12Marc:I think Butch only made it two years, but we... But we knew he had symptoms.

00:11:16Marc:Like, he started walking, like, really close to the floor and, like, fucked up.

00:11:20Guest:Really?

00:11:21Marc:Yeah, and so we brought it in, got x-rayed, and the guy told us that it had a large heart, but he said it wasn't going to live long.

00:11:28Marc:Like, he didn't...

00:11:28Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:11:29Guest:See, our vet, she had been having some sort of health issues, but it was related to like an inflamed colon or something.

00:11:35Guest:It was like a gastro issue.

00:11:37Guest:Right, right.

00:11:38Guest:And we took her to like 50 different vets and she had series after series of tests.

00:11:42Marc:Yeah.

00:11:43Guest:And then the last vet we brought her to, you know, did an x-ray and said, do you know she has an enlarged heart?

00:11:48Guest:It's nothing to worry about.

00:11:49Guest:Come back in a year and we'll check on it.

00:11:50Guest:But this thing, it's like it's catastrophic when it happens.

00:11:53Guest:It's like someone having a heart attack.

00:11:55Marc:Yeah.

00:11:56Marc:And it's just like he just died.

00:11:57Marc:Yeah.

00:11:58Guest:She just, well, we brought her into the vet, but I mean, I was sitting in the back with her holding her and I could just tell like there's, how do you come back from that?

00:12:04Guest:I was like, does she, like, I'm not sure she'll ever be able to walk again.

00:12:09Guest:It was incredibly traumatic.

00:12:10Guest:It's 11 o'clock the day before we got married.

00:12:12Marc:Oh my God.

00:12:14Guest:Sobbing all night.

00:12:16Marc:For the cat.

00:12:16Guest:For the cat.

00:12:17Guest:I mean, you know, it's, they're part of your family.

00:12:19Guest:Yeah.

00:12:20Marc:You know, it's weird.

00:12:21Marc:I've had the two I have are like 15 almost.

00:12:24Marc:So I've had the longest relationships I've had with any living thing other than parents.

00:12:30Marc:And they're healthy.

00:12:32Marc:But I know at some point, I mean, they're 15.

00:12:35Marc:That little guy Buster, he's like two and some, you know, two years.

00:12:39Marc:He just showed up at the old house.

00:12:42Guest:Sure.

00:12:42Marc:I used to live in Highland Park.

00:12:44Guest:Yeah.

00:12:44Marc:Like I lived by, like you're married to the Dawes guy?

00:12:47Guest:Yeah.

00:12:48Marc:What's his name?

00:12:48Guest:Taylor.

00:12:49Marc:Taylor.

00:12:50Guest:Yeah.

00:12:50Marc:Well, that's nice.

00:12:51Guest:Yeah.

00:12:52Marc:A rock guy.

00:12:53Marc:So you know Austin, the amp guy?

00:12:56Guest:Oh, yes, I know Austin.

00:12:58Guest:Yes, I've met him.

00:12:59Marc:Austin lived around the corner from me and he fixed this amp for me.

00:13:02Marc:It took many months for Austin to chase down the buzzes in this amp.

00:13:06Marc:And I guess I met Austin...

00:13:07Marc:Through Blake.

00:13:08Guest:Oh, through Blake Mills.

00:13:10Guest:Right.

00:13:10Marc:But I'm not a real musician guy, but I just happen to meet these guys.

00:13:14Guest:Yeah, you are.

00:13:15Marc:Because they come on the show.

00:13:16Guest:Yeah, sure.

00:13:16Marc:And then Blake's sort of like, no, I got an amp guy.

00:13:18Marc:I'm like, no, it's a little high end for me.

00:13:21Marc:But it's too bad you don't know Austin well, because I don't know if he remembers.

00:13:24Marc:Your husband's band uses those projector amps that Austin makes.

00:13:28Guest:Shit.

00:13:28Guest:Sure.

00:13:29Guest:You probably know way more than I do.

00:13:32Marc:Well, it looks like a film projector.

00:13:34Guest:Okay, sure.

00:13:35Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:13:36Marc:Because it's from an old... Doesn't matter.

00:13:38Marc:For some reason, I have Austin's prototype projector amp that he built with his dad.

00:13:45Marc:I have it still because he told me to just hold on to it because he wanted me to try it years ago.

00:13:51Marc:And then he wanted me to hold on to it so he wouldn't sell it.

00:13:54Marc:And I still have it.

00:13:54Guest:You do.

00:13:55Marc:I don't know if he remembers.

00:13:56Guest:It doesn't matter.

00:13:57Guest:Well, maybe he'll listen to this.

00:13:58Guest:Call you to ask for it.

00:14:00Marc:I don't use it.

00:14:01Marc:Maybe he will.

00:14:03Marc:So you're married to a rock guy.

00:14:05Guest:I'm married to a rock guy.

00:14:07Guest:Yeah.

00:14:07Marc:The second rock guy.

00:14:09Guest:The second rock guy.

00:14:10Guest:Clearly I'm a glutton for punishment or I have a type.

00:14:14Marc:Uh-huh.

00:14:15Marc:Yeah.

00:14:15Marc:Well, okay.

00:14:16Marc:We don't have to start there.

00:14:17Marc:I'm trying to... I thought we'd ease into that.

00:14:20Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:14:23Marc:I tried to get caught up on This Is Us, but I just bounced around a lot.

00:14:27Guest:Yeah.

00:14:28Marc:And it does...

00:14:30Guest:Something tells me it's not your type of show.

00:14:32Marc:No, but the thing is, it is kind of.

00:14:34Guest:Really?

00:14:35Marc:Yeah, because I like to cry.

00:14:37Marc:I don't necessarily want to be public about it.

00:14:40Guest:Sure.

00:14:42Guest:I understand.

00:14:43Marc:But I found that even jumping around, it seems like every five minutes in that show you can cry, if necessary.

00:14:50Guest:If you want to, if you feel compelled to.

00:14:52Marc:It's designed like that, I think.

00:14:54Guest:I mean, it's designed to tap into the human condition and what makes us tick.

00:15:00Marc:Yes.

00:15:00Guest:At any given moment, someone's going to relate to it.

00:15:03Marc:I'm starting to cry just now, just listening to you talk.

00:15:04Guest:The tears are just sort of right below the surface for me at all times.

00:15:07Marc:Are they?

00:15:08Guest:Yeah.

00:15:08Marc:For you too?

00:15:09Marc:Yeah.

00:15:10Guest:Yeah.

00:15:11Guest:I feel like the older I get, for sure.

00:15:13Marc:What is that?

00:15:14Marc:Why are we... Is it good?

00:15:17Guest:I'll lean into it.

00:15:18Guest:Why not?

00:15:19Marc:Just getting choked up all the time?

00:15:23Marc:Now, you didn't grow up here.

00:15:26Guest:I grew up in Florida.

00:15:27Marc:Oh, my God.

00:15:28Guest:I know.

00:15:29Marc:I'm sorry.

00:15:29Guest:It's a weird place to grow up.

00:15:30Marc:It's a weird place for anything.

00:15:32Guest:Yeah.

00:15:33Marc:So how did you get to Florida?

00:15:34Marc:Do you start in Florida?

00:15:35Guest:Yeah.

00:15:37Guest:I was actually born in New Hampshire, but both my parents are from Orlando.

00:15:41Marc:Oh, New Hampshire's nice.

00:15:42Guest:New Hampshire's beautiful, but I was there for six weeks.

00:15:45Guest:That's it?

00:15:45Guest:And my parents moved down to Florida.

00:15:46Marc:They just ran away to have you?

00:15:47Marc:They didn't want anyone to know, so they were from New Hampshire?

00:15:50Guest:It was too cold for them.

00:15:51Marc:Oh, really?

00:15:51Guest:They couldn't hack it.

00:15:52Marc:So they moved there and they just left?

00:15:54Guest:My dad is a pilot for American Airlines.

00:15:57Guest:Still?

00:15:58Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:15:58Marc:Really?

00:15:58Marc:I bet you I've been on this plane.

00:16:00Guest:I bet you have.

00:16:01Guest:Captain Moore.

00:16:02Marc:I'm going to remember that.

00:16:03Marc:I'm very loyal to American Airlines.

00:16:05Guest:So am I. I have to be.

00:16:07Marc:It's like a prerequisite.

00:16:09Marc:We probably get a little bit of a break, I would imagine.

00:16:12Guest:Not unless I want to fly standby.

00:16:13Guest:Who has time for that?

00:16:15Marc:No, no, no.

00:16:15Marc:You've got to get where you're going.

00:16:16Marc:Mandy Moore can't be standing there watching other people get on.

00:16:19Guest:It's not that.

00:16:20Guest:It's just...

00:16:20Guest:You need to get where you're going.

00:16:22Marc:I understand, but it would be a little awkward.

00:16:24Guest:But as kids, oh, my God, we flew standby and flew first class if it was available.

00:16:28Marc:Yeah.

00:16:29Marc:You guys were special.

00:16:30Marc:We felt special.

00:16:31Marc:Well, what if your dad's actually flying the plane?

00:16:33Guest:I've never flown on the plane with my dad before.

00:16:35Marc:You never did the cockpit thing?

00:16:37Marc:Mm-mm.

00:16:37Marc:How could you pass up?

00:16:38Marc:He never offered?

00:16:39Guest:Just when we were growing up, he flew a lot to like South and Latin America.

00:16:43Guest:And there was really no need for us to go on like any family vacations.

00:16:47Marc:You weren't a drug mule?

00:16:49Guest:Not as a child, no.

00:16:52Guest:But now he flies mostly to London and Tokyo.

00:16:56Marc:So did he start in the Air Force?

00:16:57Guest:No, he was just a civilian pilot always.

00:17:00Marc:Wow.

00:17:01Marc:That's a I think that's a pretty there's something unique and special about that job there.

00:17:06Marc:There are these weird kind of they're national heroes that aren't identified with an ideology.

00:17:11Marc:There's something heroic about just being a commercial air pilot where you like, you know, yes, sir.

00:17:16Marc:But it's I will.

00:17:17Marc:pass that on to him yeah he's so happy to hear that but it's not tied to like it's like they get it's easy affiliation right right so there's no reason to hate commercial air pilots or or be judgmental of their cause sure they're just trying to get people there safely yeah yeah no i'll tell them thanks i i will i don't know thanks for his service what's your mom do my mom was just mom yeah you got brothers and sisters i have an older and a younger brother

00:17:44Marc:How are they doing?

00:17:45Guest:They're good.

00:17:45Marc:Yeah?

00:17:46Guest:They're out here.

00:17:46Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:17:47Guest:Yeah.

00:17:47Marc:Trying their hand at the thing?

00:17:48Guest:Behind the scenes.

00:17:50Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:17:50Marc:Like gaffing or ADing?

00:17:53Guest:In production coordination, actually.

00:17:55Guest:Oh.

00:17:55Marc:Yeah.

00:17:55Marc:Well, that's the grunts on the ground.

00:17:58Marc:Grunts on the ground.

00:17:58Guest:I'm sorry.

00:17:59Marc:I just watched a Vietnam episode.

00:18:01Guest:Wait.

00:18:01Guest:Are you watching the Ken Burns?

00:18:04Marc:Well, I already watched that.

00:18:06Guest:Oh, you were watching The This Is Us?

00:18:08Marc:Yeah, I was just in Vietnam earlier today.

00:18:10Guest:Oh, good gracious.

00:18:11Marc:Yeah, so I'm using the word grunts and, you know, kind of, there's a lot of military things going on.

00:18:16Marc:I just declared your father a national hero for being a commercial air pilot.

00:18:20Marc:So, tell me about surviving Florida because, look, I...

00:18:25Marc:My mother's down there.

00:18:27Marc:You know, I have grown to appreciate Florida more, but it's a freak show, and I don't know about it that far down.

00:18:33Guest:I don't either.

00:18:34Marc:Like Orlando.

00:18:35Guest:I try to know as little as possible.

00:18:36Guest:Wait, she's in northern Florida or no?

00:18:39Marc:Wait, I don't know.

00:18:40Marc:Now I don't know Florida.

00:18:41Guest:We're in the central part of the state.

00:18:43Marc:Right.

00:18:43Marc:No, she's down by, she's in Hollywood.

00:18:45Marc:No, she's not up in Tallahassee.

00:18:47Marc:My Jewish mom.

00:18:48Guest:Jacksonville.

00:18:49Marc:Jacksonville.

00:18:49Marc:Like making do in Jacksonville.

00:18:51Marc:She decided to retire to Jacksonville, Florida.

00:18:56Guest:Florida's odd.

00:18:57Guest:I always tell people like any bizarre story always has some Florida connection.

00:19:01Guest:Yeah.

00:19:01Guest:I mean, I grew up in a very, I grew up like 20 minutes north of Orlando.

00:19:05Guest:So just a very boring, normal, suburban childhood.

00:19:09Marc:Is that by the...

00:19:10Guest:The parks?

00:19:12Guest:It's even about 40 minutes north of that.

00:19:14Marc:Wow.

00:19:15Marc:Did you see that movie?

00:19:16Marc:Which one?

00:19:18Guest:Oh, The Florida Project?

00:19:20Guest:I didn't.

00:19:21Marc:I know everyone told me I need to see it.

00:19:23Marc:A little rough.

00:19:24Marc:You didn't watch it?

00:19:25Guest:No.

00:19:26Guest:I have to do that.

00:19:27Marc:All right, so you're just in Florida.

00:19:28Marc:You got an older and younger brother.

00:19:30Guest:Yes.

00:19:31Marc:They're out here doing what, production work, you said?

00:19:33Guest:Yep.

00:19:33Marc:And you get along with them?

00:19:34Guest:I do.

00:19:35Marc:They're at the house occasionally?

00:19:36Guest:Yeah.

00:19:36Marc:Do they like Dawes?

00:19:38Guest:They do like Dawes.

00:19:39Marc:Do they like Dawes more than they like Ryan Adams?

00:19:44Guest:Everyone does, yeah.

00:19:45Guest:Everyone in my life.

00:19:48Marc:But how do you, like, what is it?

00:19:52Marc:Because that era that you came up in, in terms of how, you know, in what you came up in the singing thing, how does that start, you know, in Florida?

00:20:00Marc:How do you become a pop sensation?

00:20:02Guest:I mean, just by chance.

00:20:04Guest:Really?

00:20:04Guest:Yeah, I was like a dorky theater kid.

00:20:08Marc:In high school or before?

00:20:10Guest:No, no, I was like a kid, like eight, nine, ten.

00:20:12Marc:So you'd go, you'd do plays?

00:20:14Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:20:14Guest:Like local community theater.

00:20:16Guest:Oh, yeah?

00:20:16Guest:Yeah.

00:20:17Guest:And no one in my family sings or acts or is remotely artistic at all.

00:20:22Guest:I don't know where it came from.

00:20:24Guest:You just needed it.

00:20:26Guest:I needed it.

00:20:26Guest:I did.

00:20:27Guest:I did.

00:20:28Guest:Like so much so that the Orlando Sentinel, the local paper, every Friday would have an audition hotline.

00:20:33Guest:Yeah.

00:20:33Guest:with all of the auditions coming up the next week.

00:20:35Guest:And I would listen every Friday before school and see if there was anything for anyone my age, like all across town.

00:20:41Guest:Really?

00:20:41Guest:And my parents were so wonderful because they would schlep me from audition to audition, like, you know, far out, like outside of our little area.

00:20:52Marc:Were there ever situations where you'd be going to an audition and your mom would be like, I don't know about this place.

00:20:57Guest:Kind of.

00:20:59Guest:It's an hour away, Mandy.

00:21:00Marc:It's too far.

00:21:01Marc:This doesn't seem like a real theater operation.

00:21:03Marc:Who's that guy?

00:21:05Marc:No, no, we're not going here.

00:21:07Guest:But I did a ton of that until I went to an Orlando Magic Game and saw a little girl my age sing the national anthem.

00:21:14Marc:How old are we talking?

00:21:14Guest:12.

00:21:16Guest:And I had no idea that was even in the realm of possibility.

00:21:19Marc:That that was a career trajectory?

00:21:21Guest:That was an option?

00:21:21Guest:That was a career trajectory, yeah, for a 12-year-old.

00:21:24Marc:I can sing the national anthem at a Sentinels game.

00:21:26Guest:So I begged my parents to put me on tape and send in an audition to the Magic, and they did, and I got chosen.

00:21:34Guest:And from there, I sang for the Magic Game.

00:21:37Guest:And then, I don't know, I got sort of put into some sort of national anthem circuit where I then sang for every other sports team that played in that same arena.

00:21:45Guest:So I sang for the Jackals, which I think was the arena football team.

00:21:50Marc:So you were the anthem kid.

00:21:52Guest:I was the little anthem kid.

00:21:54Guest:I was singing.

00:21:55Guest:I remember I was 13.

00:21:57Guest:I was singing at the ice hockey game.

00:22:00Guest:And my dad was sitting in like the goalie box or whatever, the penalty box.

00:22:04Guest:And I'm walking back after I sang.

00:22:06Guest:I had my little pitch pipe.

00:22:07Guest:And these two guys, like bizarre men, beckon me over.

00:22:11Guest:And my dad's with me in Florida, in Orlando.

00:22:14Guest:And they asked me if I've ever recorded in a recording studio before.

00:22:18Marc:Two guys.

00:22:19Guest:Two guys.

00:22:20Marc:Uh-huh.

00:22:20Guest:And they say, we'd love to like, we have some songs that we've written and we'd love to have you sing them.

00:22:27Guest:Young guys?

00:22:29Guest:Yeah, like in their 30s.

00:22:30Guest:Right, right.

00:22:31Guest:And my parents were like, if you want to do that, if you want to spend some of your own money that you've made, like doing national commercials.

00:22:39Marc:Yeah, do the commercials in the anthem gig.

00:22:41Marc:Yeah.

00:22:41Marc:You did some national commercials too?

00:22:42Guest:I did, I did.

00:22:43Guest:I did a Kmart commercial.

00:22:45Guest:Oh.

00:22:45Guest:And a bunch of stuff for like the theme parks.

00:22:46Guest:Nothing...

00:22:47Guest:Super big.

00:22:48Marc:Nationals?

00:22:49Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:22:49Marc:So you're making some money.

00:22:50Marc:I mean, not a ton of money, but... Kmart, yeah.

00:22:54Guest:But enough to go sustain myself recording in some bizarre studio on the outskirts of Orlando.

00:23:00Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:23:01Marc:So your parents said okay?

00:23:03Guest:My parents said okay.

00:23:04Guest:I'm in the studio recording...

00:23:05Marc:Would they drive you over there?

00:23:06Marc:They sit in there with you?

00:23:07Guest:Yeah, they're there with me.

00:23:08Guest:Mom and dad are there the whole time.

00:23:10Guest:With the weird guys?

00:23:11Guest:With the weird guys.

00:23:12Guest:Looking back now, it's so sketchy.

00:23:15Guest:At the time, it was like, this is how this happens.

00:23:19Marc:It kind of is, though.

00:23:20Guest:Kind of.

00:23:20Marc:I mean, the record industry is not known for its decency.

00:23:24Marc:Yes.

00:23:26Guest:So I'm in the studio and this guy who works for FedEx has a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend who's the head of urban A&R, as they called it, at Epic Records in New York.

00:23:37Guest:That's big.

00:23:37Guest:Yeah.

00:23:38Guest:And this FedEx guy somehow maneuvers it up the chain and it gets to this gentleman in New York.

00:23:45Marc:Just out of his appreciation.

00:23:47Guest:The goodness of his heart.

00:23:48Guest:I mean, clearly, I'm sure he was looking to be a talent scout or find a new gig for himself.

00:23:55Marc:Did you give him a Christmas present?

00:23:57Guest:They definitely took care of him.

00:23:59Guest:Okay.

00:24:01Guest:And this guy flew down to Orlando from Epic Records.

00:24:04Marc:A&R guy.

00:24:05Guest:A&R guy.

00:24:06Guest:And I sang a song from a musical for him.

00:24:09Marc:Which musical?

00:24:10A&R.

00:24:10Guest:Once Upon a Mattress.

00:24:13Guest:I don't even, I just knew this one song from the show.

00:24:16Marc:And he belted it out.

00:24:17Guest:I belted it out for him.

00:24:19Guest:I was 14 at the time.

00:24:20Guest:I had just started my freshman year of high school.

00:24:23Guest:And he, I don't know how, but like heard something he liked.

00:24:27Guest:And I signed with him and I left school just after Christmas break.

00:24:32Guest:As a freshman?

00:24:34Guest:As a freshman.

00:24:35Marc:And you went to New York?

00:24:36Guest:I went to New York and started making my first record.

00:24:38Marc:Yeah.

00:24:39Marc:What's it called?

00:24:40Guest:So real.

00:24:42Guest:You were so real.

00:24:43Marc:I was so real.

00:24:44Marc:It was deep stuff.

00:24:46Guest:Deep shit at 15.

00:24:48Guest:This was 1999.

00:24:49Guest:I mean, come on.

00:24:51Marc:No, I know.

00:24:51Marc:No, no.

00:24:52Marc:I see.

00:24:53Marc:But it's sort of fascinating to me that, you know, you have this fund, you know, this fundamental talent, both as a actor and as a singer.

00:25:03Guest:That's kind of you to put it that way.

00:25:05Guest:I don't know if that was really the case.

00:25:07Marc:No, of course it was the case.

00:25:09Marc:I mean, you were running around doing this stuff, and you were charming enough to get these gigs.

00:25:14Marc:They weren't laughing at you at the national anthem.

00:25:16Marc:You were doing the job, or you wouldn't have gotten the job.

00:25:19Guest:I guess.

00:25:20Guest:I guess.

00:25:20Marc:You weren't some free kid.

00:25:22Marc:Sure.

00:25:24Guest:Sure, but I think you give people the benefit of the doubt when they're 12, 13 years old and so on.

00:25:29Guest:Right.

00:25:29Marc:But the benefit of the doubt is one thing, but from a guy to fly down from New York and decide like, no, this kid.

00:25:34Marc:Now that Epic A&R guy, was he like old school or just another young 30 something?

00:25:38Guest:He was a young guy.

00:25:39Guest:He actually, his big claim to fame was he had signed the Backstreet Boys when they were at Jive Records and he had just moved to Epic.

00:25:45Guest:And I think I was one of the first acts that he signed.

00:25:48Marc:Now, unfortunately, I was a sort of, I think, a grown man kind of by the time all this happened.

00:25:56Guest:It wasn't your cup of tea.

00:25:57Marc:No.

00:25:58Marc:I get a lot of them confused.

00:26:00Marc:I missed most things.

00:26:01Marc:I missed almost everything.

00:26:04Marc:I don't know why, but I did.

00:26:05Marc:Sure.

00:26:05Marc:But but my question, though, is that so you go up to New York and you're doing this thing now where you just they were obviously someone had an idea of how you fit into the whole.

00:26:15Guest:Yeah, this was sort of I was on the cusp of Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera like they had just come out and we're just sort of like racing to the top.

00:26:26Marc:Were you fans of them?

00:26:27Guest:i to be quite honest i didn't it was so new like you know i was i was my label's answer to those those girls but they they decided that though they decided that i didn't know so it was hard to even like to be fans of them at that point because they were just sort of like coming out and they were like kids too right they were kids too like 15 16 they were slightly older than like three or four years one of them weren't they mousketeers or something both of them they both were

00:26:54Marc:Yeah.

00:26:55Guest:And people assume that I was as well just because of the Orlando connection.

00:26:58Marc:Another Mouseketeer.

00:27:00Guest:Another Mouseketeer.

00:27:01Marc:They found her at the park down there.

00:27:04Marc:Disney's just churning them out.

00:27:06Marc:Yeah.

00:27:07Marc:So you just like singing the songs.

00:27:08Marc:You weren't writing the songs.

00:27:09Marc:They were writing the songs for you, but they wanted you to be this sort of cute, sexualized, you know, 15-year-old.

00:27:19Guest:Between myself and my contemporaries, I guess, is honestly, I never had someone telling me that I needed to.

00:27:30Guest:Like, no one made decisions for me.

00:27:32Guest:No one tried to hyper-sexualize my image or even the music that I was singing.

00:27:37Guest:I mean, obviously, at that point in time, I probably, like...

00:27:42Guest:French kissed a boy but I hadn't done anything else I certainly didn't know everything that I was singing about but no one like no one made me dress in a way that made me feel uncomfortable like I still felt very much in control of the image that I was projecting the way I answered questions like

00:27:58Marc:Right.

00:27:59Marc:So if they suggested something, you would be like, okay.

00:28:01Marc:But in the sense that, like, did you choose your clothes?

00:28:07Marc:But they presented it to you.

00:28:08Marc:Right, right.

00:28:09Guest:I mean, there was like a stylist there with a rack of clothes in the same way that that sort of exists today.

00:28:14Guest:But I still felt very much in control of making my own decisions.

00:28:18Marc:And that first album had like one hit?

00:28:20Guest:It did.

00:28:21Marc:Candy.

00:28:21Guest:Candy.

00:28:23Marc:Yeah.

00:28:23Marc:And then what happens when that happens?

00:28:25Marc:So you're 15.

00:28:26Marc:Now that people that are like, you know, going crazy for candy are little girls.

00:28:30Marc:Yeah.

00:28:31Guest:Mostly little girls.

00:28:33Marc:Okay.

00:28:33Guest:Girls my age.

00:28:34Guest:Younger.

00:28:35Marc:And they're all excited.

00:28:36Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:28:36Marc:So when they see you on the street, they're excited and they're...

00:28:40Guest:I don't know if I had that sort of recognition.

00:28:42Marc:Did it have a video presence?

00:28:43Guest:Yes.

00:28:44Guest:Yeah, it was still in the Haiti of MTV.

00:28:47Guest:And very quickly, actually, the record came out in 99.

00:28:51Guest:And that same year, at the end of the year, I signed a contract with MTV to become an MTV VJ.

00:28:58Guest:So I was also on the channel as a VJ, like helping TRL when Carson wasn't there.

00:29:05Guest:Carson Daly?

00:29:05Guest:Carson Daly.

00:29:06Guest:I mean, it was like a completely different world.

00:29:08Marc:He just never, like, he never really changes much and he never goes away.

00:29:12Marc:It's just sort of like.

00:29:13Guest:He's still out there doing his thing.

00:29:15Marc:Yeah, you just, you turn the TV on and you're like, is that Carson Daly?

00:29:17Marc:Yeah.

00:29:18Marc:What time is it?

00:29:18Marc:It's 2.30 in the morning.

00:29:19Marc:He's got a show at 2.30 in the morning.

00:29:21Marc:Now he's on, what, the Today Show?

00:29:22Guest:He's on the Today Show, I know.

00:29:23Marc:He finally landed in daytime.

00:29:26Guest:Yeah, I know.

00:29:27Guest:But then I think he still has his own show, like you said, at 2 in the morning as well.

00:29:30Marc:But that show, like I did it once and he wasn't even there.

00:29:32Marc:I remember like they used to do these, record these out of studio interviews.

00:29:36Marc:It was a time where they'd sort of fold stuff in.

00:29:38Marc:It was his really late show.

00:29:40Marc:It wasn't the one where he was just doing a straight up talk show.

00:29:43Marc:There were segments.

00:29:44Marc:Yeah.

00:29:44Marc:And I knew I was going to be on the Carson Daly show, but like someone interviewed me in a bar or something.

00:29:49Marc:Wow.

00:29:49Marc:And then it just showed up there.

00:29:50Marc:I'm like, I don't get to meet Carson.

00:29:52Marc:How is this that?

00:29:53Yeah.

00:29:53Guest:Only so much time in the day for him, Mark.

00:29:55Marc:Yeah, that's true.

00:29:57Marc:So he's on MTV at that time?

00:30:00Guest:Yes.

00:30:01Marc:And who are the other cats on MTV?

00:30:02Guest:It's you and- Oh, gosh.

00:30:04Guest:Dave Holmes and I believe Ananda was another.

00:30:09Guest:Tyrese was a VJ at one point.

00:30:12Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:30:13Guest:I mean, it was-

00:30:14Marc:Was he in Baby Boy?

00:30:15Marc:Yes.

00:30:16Marc:God damn, I love that movie.

00:30:17Guest:Yeah.

00:30:18Guest:I haven't seen that movie.

00:30:19Marc:Oh, you got to watch that movie.

00:30:21Marc:It's a great movie.

00:30:22Guest:Okay.

00:30:22Marc:It's Singleton.

00:30:23Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:25Marc:Boys in the Hood guy.

00:30:26Marc:Yeah.

00:30:26Marc:I love that movie.

00:30:27Marc:So it's you guys.

00:30:28Marc:You're all VJs.

00:30:29Marc:Yeah.

00:30:30Marc:At that point, there's like, what, 12 videos in rotation?

00:30:33Marc:Or it's more than that?

00:30:34Marc:No.

00:30:34Guest:Probably more than that.

00:30:35Marc:Yeah.

00:30:36Guest:But it was back during the heyday of MTV, too, where they had MTV Spring Break.

00:30:41Guest:MTV Snowed In, where we were in Big Bear.

00:30:44Marc:John Stewart used to host Spring Break.

00:30:46Guest:Really?

00:30:47Guest:He did once.

00:30:47Guest:That was before my time.

00:30:49Guest:That was my only Spring Break experience, by the way.

00:30:51Guest:And as a 15 and 16-year-old with drunk college guys leering at you, not a good scene.

00:30:59Marc:That's a part of America that never changes.

00:31:01Guest:Never.

00:31:02Guest:Never.

00:31:02Marc:Drunk college guys leering at girls.

00:31:04Guest:Teenage girls.

00:31:05Marc:Yeah, teenage girls.

00:31:07Marc:But did you ever have to... At that time, were you just excited?

00:31:11Marc:Were you just happy to be part of it?

00:31:13Guest:Absolutely.

00:31:14Marc:And was there a competitive nature between you and...

00:31:17Guest:Not at all.

00:31:18Guest:I mean, first of all, they had such tremendous success.

00:31:22Guest:Comparatively, I was, I'm sure they didn't even know my name.

00:31:26Guest:They probably didn't even know I existed.

00:31:28Marc:So did you feel shitty?

00:31:29Guest:No, not at all.

00:31:30Guest:I felt, and I still feel like incredibly grateful to have had those opportunities.

00:31:36Guest:And I mean, here I am at 34, still having some semblance of a career thanks to that.

00:31:42Guest:So no.

00:31:44Guest:And I always knew like, look, I am not a

00:31:46Marc:performer like they are did you stop aging at some point did you just stop i mean like you're yeah like i mean you're 34 but i feel like i've known about you my entire life and you're just i'm getting older and you're staying the same how does that happen i don't know no no that's certainly not the case but i mean i've been doing this since i was 16 15 so it's it's pretty mind-blowing but but so were you at mtv personality when you did the second record yes

00:32:13Marc:So it was all tied together.

00:32:14Marc:You never felt any weirdness from the record?

00:32:17Marc:Like it didn't get ugly?

00:32:19Guest:No.

00:32:21Guest:In what way?

00:32:22Guest:What do you mean?

00:32:22Marc:It just feels like there would be a lot of pressure.

00:32:25Marc:It's hard for me not to see younger people who get involved in the record business as products and being pushed a certain way.

00:32:35Guest:I mean, I suppose there was some of that going on, but I didn't feel wholly aware of it.

00:32:41Marc:You were just excited.

00:32:41Guest:I was so excited for the opportunity, and it was so overwhelming in a way that I just kept taking it day by day and not trying to look at the bigger picture of it all.

00:32:51Guest:Yeah.

00:32:51Guest:And I didn't know what I was doing.

00:32:53Guest:Right.

00:32:53Guest:So there was no... And you know, being a young person, it's like to have all of that on my plate now would give me anxiety.

00:33:01Guest:It would freak me out.

00:33:02Guest:Right.

00:33:02Guest:But as a young person, I was just like...

00:33:04Guest:I'd go open up for the Backstreet Boys in front of like 20,000 people and all these glow sticks and just the roar of the crowd.

00:33:12Guest:And I wouldn't think anything of it.

00:33:14Guest:Now I would shit my pants.

00:33:16Guest:Like, you know, I couldn't do it.

00:33:18Marc:You were just sort of locked in.

00:33:19Guest:I was so locked in.

00:33:21Marc:And it's time to go out and sing.

00:33:22Guest:Yeah.

00:33:22Guest:Yeah, and I had my backup dancers.

00:33:24Guest:Yeah.

00:33:24Guest:I didn't know what I was doing, but I just, like, I was in it.

00:33:27Guest:Were you dancing?

00:33:27Guest:I was so present-ish, trying to.

00:33:30Guest:Really?

00:33:31Guest:The record label noticed really early on, like, okay, so she's not a dancer.

00:33:35Guest:I did one music video, the candy video, where I'm, like, trying to dance, and it's horrendous.

00:33:40Guest:And I think after that they realized, like, you should just sing.

00:33:44Guest:Just, like, hold the microphone stand.

00:33:46Guest:Yeah.

00:33:46Marc:Oh, so that's why you're not like Britney.

00:33:50Guest:Yeah, I wasn't Britney or Christina.

00:33:51Guest:They were real performers in every sense of the word.

00:33:55Marc:But the Backstreet Boys, those are the Boston guys, right?

00:33:58Guest:That's New Kids on the Block.

00:33:59Marc:Oh, damn it.

00:34:00Marc:They were earlier.

00:34:01Guest:They were an earlier incarnation of the boy band, yes.

00:34:04Marc:Oh, so the Backstreet Boys.

00:34:05Guest:Backstreet Boys, NSYNC, they came after them.

00:34:07Marc:Aren't they trying to come back or something?

00:34:09Guest:Backstreet's still, I think they're in Vegas doing a residency or something.

00:34:13Guest:They're still doing it.

00:34:14Marc:Yeah.

00:34:14Marc:Is that good or...

00:34:16Guest:Why not?

00:34:17Marc:I guess so.

00:34:18Guest:Right?

00:34:18Marc:Yeah.

00:34:19Marc:Don't you wonder who goes?

00:34:20Marc:Are they are they the teenage girls that were grown up now?

00:34:23Guest:Yeah.

00:34:23Marc:Yeah.

00:34:23Marc:And they're what they probably 40s.

00:34:25Guest:Yeah.

00:34:25Guest:But I feel like I have the same fan base in a way or at least like young women that were that sort of like grew up with me.

00:34:34Guest:Well, no, for sure.

00:34:34Guest:That are now, like, young moms and stuff.

00:34:36Guest:For sure.

00:34:36Guest:I guess there's sort of that nostalgia quotient, too, for people with those kinds of bands.

00:34:42Marc:But you don't, do you, well, yeah, I think for any band.

00:34:45Marc:Like, I think that any band that made an impact on somebody when they were, like, 13 or 14, it's lodged in there.

00:34:51Marc:Yeah.

00:34:52Marc:And you kind of want to go back.

00:34:53Marc:Because it seems like as you get older, there's some party that's always yearning to sort of, like,

00:34:57Guest:I wonder if I can get in touch with that person.

00:35:02Marc:What happened to that person?

00:35:05Marc:But you're not doing no nostalgia shows, do you?

00:35:07Guest:No, no, no.

00:35:08Guest:I haven't done music in a while.

00:35:10Guest:I'm getting back to it, though.

00:35:11Marc:Are you?

00:35:13Guest:Yeah.

00:35:15Guest:You did a little of that.

00:35:17Guest:You got a band?

00:35:18Guest:Do you know any musicians?

00:35:19Guest:Just a few.

00:35:22Marc:But you sang on the show.

00:35:24Marc:I do.

00:35:24Guest:I sing on the show.

00:35:25Marc:Yeah, that's a backstory of your life in the show, too.

00:35:30Guest:Which was unknown to me when I auditioned.

00:35:33Marc:Did they know, though?

00:35:34Marc:I always wonder how much they know when they start writing these shows, because I've been on a couple, and the ones I'm on, I don't get the sense that they know from season to season what the next season's going to look like.

00:35:43Yeah.

00:35:43Marc:Something like This Is Us looks like they've got it mapped out.

00:35:45Guest:He absolutely has it mapped out until the end.

00:35:48Guest:I think once I got the part, he decided to sort of add that into her backstory because we had worked together on that Disney movie Tangled, Dan Fogelman, who created this with us.

00:35:59Marc:You're Rapunzel.

00:35:59Guest:I'm Rapunzel.

00:36:01Guest:And so he knew that I sang because of that film and that experience together.

00:36:05Guest:So I think that maybe factored in for the backstory.

00:36:08Marc:He knew that you were a singer?

00:36:11Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:36:11Guest:He knew I could carry a tune-ish.

00:36:13Marc:So, okay, so now you do the second record.

00:36:16Marc:Yes.

00:36:17Marc:Any hits?

00:36:18Guest:Yeah, there was a song called I Want to Be With You that was in sort of a teen dance romantic movie called Center Stage, I think.

00:36:31Guest:And that was a moderate, mediocre sort of hit.

00:36:35Guest:It's a beautiful song, and I loved it, and I felt way more connected to it.

00:36:39Guest:the style and the fact that it felt like a little bit more organic and there was no need for me to even try to dance to a song like that.

00:36:47Guest:So I really, I enjoyed putting that record out.

00:36:52Marc:It did have some snappy kind of Middle Eastern grooves.

00:36:56Guest:Oh yeah.

00:36:56Guest:Yeah, it did.

00:36:56Guest:It did.

00:36:57Guest:That was not my choice.

00:36:58Guest:That was a record label push.

00:37:00Marc:I listened to some of it.

00:37:01Guest:It doesn't really stand the test of time.

00:37:04Guest:Of course it does.

00:37:05Guest:What do you mean?

00:37:05Marc:What's the test of time?

00:37:06Guest:I mean, you can still go like, oh yeah, this is fun.

00:37:11Marc:This is so 2001.

00:37:12Marc:Yeah, but it's still like, you know, you can dance to it and it's happy music.

00:37:15Marc:I mean, I don't think anyone... I don't, look, I don't...

00:37:18Guest:I don't begrudge it.

00:37:20Guest:I don't begrudge the opportunities that it brought me, but I can't say that I feel truly connected to any of that because I didn't have any real say creatively in the music.

00:37:30Guest:I was always allowed to be myself when it came to making those decisions, but musically,

00:37:35Guest:That's when you have the whole conglomerate of an entire machine of a record label behind you.

00:37:39Guest:Right.

00:37:39Marc:They know what's selling.

00:37:40Marc:They know what the kid's like.

00:37:41Marc:They know what has international market.

00:37:43Guest:Sure.

00:37:43Guest:Or they're trying to sort of do something that's a little off the beaten path and start a trend themselves.

00:37:50Guest:And they're like, go down to Miami and work with Emilio Esteban or whatever.

00:37:54Guest:I'm like, okay.

00:37:55Guest:Yeah.

00:37:56Marc:Here's what you do.

00:37:57Marc:They're going to be doing this.

00:37:59Marc:Right.

00:37:59Guest:Yeah.

00:38:00Marc:And there's all kinds of drums behind you.

00:38:02Guest:Exactly.

00:38:03Guest:Yeah.

00:38:03Guest:Here's what the demo singer is doing.

00:38:05Guest:Copy her.

00:38:06Marc:Right.

00:38:06Guest:Yeah.

00:38:07Marc:And you do it.

00:38:07Guest:And you do it.

00:38:09Marc:When did you get the first acting gig?

00:38:12Guest:Kind of right around that time.

00:38:15Guest:When I was 16, I auditioned for the Gary Marshall movie, The Princess Diaries.

00:38:22Marc:That was a big movie.

00:38:22Guest:It was a big movie.

00:38:24Marc:That was like The Little Girls again.

00:38:25Guest:Yeah.

00:38:26Marc:Right?

00:38:26Guest:Yeah.

00:38:27Guest:Well, it was Anne Hathaway.

00:38:28Marc:I love her.

00:38:29Guest:It was Julie Andrews.

00:38:30Guest:Yeah.

00:38:31Guest:She's amazing.

00:38:31Marc:Do you know that I love her, though?

00:38:32Guest:Do you?

00:38:33Marc:Yeah, I do.

00:38:34Guest:You love, love her?

00:38:35Marc:I kind of do.

00:38:36Guest:She has that effect on people.

00:38:38Marc:She's very impressive.

00:38:39Marc:Well, I interviewed her and I kept it together.

00:38:41Guest:Good going.

00:38:43Marc:Thank you.

00:38:43Marc:So it's you and Anne Hathaway.

00:38:44Marc:I'm sorry.

00:38:45Guest:And Julie Andrews.

00:38:46Marc:Yes.

00:38:48Guest:That's right.

00:38:49Guest:You got to work with Julie Andrews.

00:38:50Guest:I did.

00:38:51Marc:But there was no singing in that movie, was there?

00:38:53Guest:Not for me.

00:38:54Guest:A little bit for me.

00:38:56Marc:Was it fun working with Julie Andrews?

00:38:57Guest:I mean, I didn't really get to work with her, but I was around her on set a couple times.

00:39:01Guest:That's something.

00:39:02Guest:I mean, yeah, she's Mary Poppins.

00:39:06Marc:But that elevated your recognition factor, I'd imagine?

00:39:11Guest:I guess so.

00:39:11Guest:It was like my first experience in a really professional setting, dipping my toe into the acting world.

00:39:17Guest:And I realized that I really loved it.

00:39:20Guest:And I sort of started putting myself out there and auditioning for other roles.

00:39:26Guest:And then the next thing that came up was my next gig, I guess, was A Walk to Remember.

00:39:33Guest:And that was sort of the biggest one to date.

00:39:37Marc:And who was in that?

00:39:39Guest:An actor by the name of Shane West.

00:39:41Marc:To date, that was your biggest movie?

00:39:43Guest:Kind of, yeah.

00:39:43Marc:In terms of how it did, you mean?

00:39:45Guest:Or in terms of what?

00:39:46Guest:I think sort of the relevance of the film.

00:39:51Guest:You had a lead.

00:39:52Guest:Right.

00:39:52Guest:Besides This Is Us, it's the thing that people mention most to me.

00:39:56Guest:No kidding.

00:39:56Guest:In my day-to-day life and out there in the world.

00:39:59Marc:Oh, well now I have to watch it.

00:40:02Guest:No, no you don't.

00:40:03Marc:I like Peter Coyote.

00:40:05Guest:Peter Coyote played my father.

00:40:06Guest:Yeah.

00:40:07Guest:It's a sort of weepy teen romance movie.

00:40:10Guest:It's not for you.

00:40:11Guest:Does anyone die again?

00:40:12Guest:Yeah.

00:40:13Marc:Are you serious?

00:40:14Guest:Spoiler alert, yeah.

00:40:15Marc:Do you?

00:40:15Marc:I die.

00:40:16Marc:You die at the end of- I die at the end.

00:40:18Marc:See, now I'm sad.

00:40:20Guest:My whole career is just based on making people cry, I've realized.

00:40:24Guest:It comes full circle.

00:40:25Marc:That's heavy, though.

00:40:27Guest:It's all I'm good for.

00:40:28Marc:So that's like a love story for teenagers.

00:40:30Guest:It kind of was, yeah.

00:40:32Marc:What'd you die of?

00:40:33Guest:Leukemia.

00:40:34Marc:That is a love story.

00:40:35Guest:Yeah.

00:40:36Marc:Oh.

00:40:37Yeah.

00:40:37Marc:So that's what people remember.

00:40:39Guest:That's what people remember.

00:40:40Marc:It fucked their little teenage brains.

00:40:41Marc:Yeah.

00:40:42Marc:You introduced them to grief.

00:40:44Guest:Yeah, I did.

00:40:46Guest:Their first experience crying in a movie theater.

00:40:49Guest:It was you.

00:40:49Guest:It was me.

00:40:51Marc:But like grown ladies come up to you and you're like, you know, that movie was... Still.

00:40:55Guest:Yeah.

00:40:56Guest:I mean, I'm so flattered to be a part of something that still has that sort of resonance with people.

00:41:00Marc:It's down in there.

00:41:03Marc:But now with This Is Us, it's like every week you have that resonance with people.

00:41:07Guest:I guess.

00:41:08Guest:I hope.

00:41:09Marc:You don't die?

00:41:10Marc:No, no.

00:41:12Guest:That would be my husband.

00:41:13Marc:Well, he's already dead, right?

00:41:15Marc:How did he die?

00:41:17Guest:He dies of a heart attack from smoke inhalation.

00:41:20Marc:Oh, right, because he ran in to save the dog.

00:41:22Guest:Yeah.

00:41:23Marc:Right, I heard.

00:41:23Marc:I was told some stuff.

00:41:25Guest:You got some insider information.

00:41:26Marc:My girlfriend's a secret fan of the show.

00:41:29Guest:Really?

00:41:29Marc:Yeah, and she, I don't know why people, there are certain types of people that I, for some reason, don't want to cop.

00:41:37Guest:I understand.

00:41:38Marc:I don't, really.

00:41:39Marc:I mean, it's like, why not?

00:41:41Marc:You know what I mean?

00:41:43Marc:Everyone likes it for a reason.

00:41:45Guest:Yeah.

00:41:45Marc:It doesn't mean it's bad.

00:41:46Marc:It's not like a comedy.

00:41:48Guest:No way.

00:41:49Guest:I'm really proud of it.

00:41:50Marc:You should be.

00:41:51Guest:Yeah, absolutely.

00:41:52Marc:Didn't you get involved in some Twitter mistake I made with the big guy on the show?

00:41:56Guest:Oh, Chris Sullivan.

00:41:59Guest:You like mistook him for someone else.

00:42:00Guest:He was like so excited that you maybe recognized him.

00:42:04Marc:Well, I felt bad because the other dude too, the guy who plays the Manny, what's his name?

00:42:08Guest:Justin.

00:42:08Marc:Justin recognized me at the last SAG Awards, too.

00:42:11Marc:And because I didn't watch the show, I felt bad.

00:42:13Marc:But he was like, hey.

00:42:15Marc:It's okay.

00:42:15Marc:Well, now I know.

00:42:16Marc:Now I can have some... Now you have a point of reference.

00:42:18Marc:I do, yeah.

00:42:19Marc:And I feel better about it.

00:42:20Marc:But yeah, that was the De Niro thing where we were trying to act like we were just being casual and not waiting.

00:42:27Guest:Waiting for him to finish his conversation.

00:42:28Marc:It was ridiculous.

00:42:29Guest:That's what you do with those shows, though.

00:42:31Guest:I mean, it is your opportunity to go up and...

00:42:34Guest:Talk to people that you're fans of.

00:42:36Marc:But you've been an actor forever.

00:42:37Marc:I've just been a guy that some people have gone to their... People have come to my house and sat in my garage, and now I'm all of a sudden an actor guy, and it was really odd for me the first thing I watched.

00:42:46Guest:I'm nervous being here.

00:42:47Marc:You are?

00:42:47Guest:Yeah.

00:42:48Marc:Why?

00:42:49Guest:Because I am, because I listen to your show, and I never thought that I would be in this seat.

00:42:54Marc:So you listen to that Ryan Adams?

00:42:55Guest:I did.

00:42:56Guest:I had to.

00:42:59Marc:Just to see if he was going to say something bad?

00:43:03Guest:No, no, no.

00:43:03Guest:I just was curious what he was going to say.

00:43:05Marc:What'd I get out of him?

00:43:06Marc:I did all right for being... You did.

00:43:08Marc:Yeah.

00:43:09Marc:It's hard to wrangle.

00:43:10Guest:Hard to wrangle.

00:43:11Guest:I've actually not... Usually, you're the one that talks more than the person you're interviewing, and that wasn't the case there.

00:43:16Marc:Excuse me?

00:43:18Guest:It's your show.

00:43:19Guest:I mean, you're entitled.

00:43:20Guest:You should take the lead.

00:43:21Marc:I do not think that's always the case.

00:43:23Guest:You're right.

00:43:25Guest:It depends.

00:43:25Guest:But I would say for the most part, you're chattier than the guests.

00:43:29Marc:Sometimes.

00:43:30Marc:It's a dance.

00:43:35Marc:It's a dance.

00:43:36Marc:Sometimes you have to.

00:43:37Guest:Yeah.

00:43:38Marc:But no, he just kept going.

00:43:39Guest:Yeah.

00:43:40Marc:But we're not to Ryan Adams yet.

00:43:43Marc:We're still.

00:43:43Guest:Oh, we're not there yet.

00:43:45Guest:Oh, goodness.

00:43:46Guest:OK.

00:43:46Marc:Well, I think what I'm really curious about is that there is a point where you say, like, this isn't me.

00:43:53Marc:And I, you know, if I want to be a singer, I have to find me.

00:43:58Marc:Which album was that?

00:44:00Guest:The label let me make a covers record called Coverage.

00:44:04Guest:I was 18.

00:44:05Guest:Yeah.

00:44:06Guest:And I got to choose whatever songs I wanted to cover.

00:44:09Guest:So, I mean, I chose Joni Mitchell.

00:44:12Guest:I chose XTC and Joe Jackson.

00:44:15Guest:And I mean, it was, I knew that we were sort of at the end of our life together at the label.

00:44:23Guest:Oh, really?

00:44:24Guest:How do you know that?

00:44:25Yeah.

00:44:25Guest:I owed them one more record, and I knew that it wasn't a relationship that was going to continue.

00:44:30Marc:Why?

00:44:30Marc:Because they weren't happy?

00:44:31Guest:Because I wasn't really selling records.

00:44:33Marc:Oh.

00:44:33Guest:And the fact that they let me, an 18-year-old, make a covers record of songs that people my age had no idea about kind of indicated, like, it was just sort of their last-ditch effort to, like, you know, allow me to sort of fulfill my obligation without the stakes being too high.

00:44:51Guest:Yeah.

00:44:52Guest:And did it sell?

00:44:53Guest:It didn't.

00:44:54Guest:But people, I think people liked it and it served a purpose for me creatively.

00:45:00Guest:I felt like it was a stepping stone in order for me to get to the place where I am now musically.

00:45:07Marc:Yeah.

00:45:08Marc:So you were able, by choosing the songs you were able to, that you loved, you were able to inhabit them in your truest self.

00:45:16Guest:Yeah.

00:45:17Guest:That's a good way of describing it.

00:45:19Marc:Right.

00:45:19Marc:Because they mean something to you.

00:45:21Guest:They mean something to me.

00:45:22Guest:And it was a way to honor music that I felt people my age were maybe missing out on.

00:45:29Guest:But it brought me closer to wanting to be a songwriter myself and kind of grab hold of, I don't know, the reins of my own career creatively.

00:45:39Marc:But also at this point, thankfully, on some level, I mean, I imagine it has to be kind of devastating that...

00:45:45Marc:Or at least to accept the fact that you're not selling can't feel great, but you're also acting.

00:45:51Guest:But I didn't ever really sell.

00:45:53Guest:I never made any money from music.

00:45:55Guest:I never really found any acclaim.

00:45:57Guest:I never went on tour.

00:45:58Marc:But a lot of people know who you are.

00:46:00Marc:You think that's more from the movies?

00:46:01Guest:I think it's probably more from the acting side of things than musically.

00:46:06Guest:I think the music sort of was a supplement to what I was doing on the acting side.

00:46:13Guest:Like it was a nice balance.

00:46:14Guest:Music's always what I've been kind of more passionate about, so I was happy to have some semblance of it in my life, but I didn't lean on it too heavily thinking like this is my only source of income, this is my only source of creativity.

00:46:28Marc:Yeah.

00:46:30Marc:So after coverage, you leave what, Epic?

00:46:32Guest:Yeah.

00:46:32Guest:I left Sony.

00:46:34Guest:I went to Warner Brothers for a second and then that didn't work out.

00:46:38Guest:I started making a record with them and that didn't work out.

00:46:40Guest:Really?

00:46:41Guest:And then I just went off and like made my own record and like my management company at the time put it out.

00:46:47Guest:And this was like 2007.

00:46:48Guest:What record was that?

00:46:50Guest:Wild Hope.

00:46:51Marc:Yeah.

00:46:51Guest:Yeah.

00:46:52Marc:Yeah, how'd that do?

00:46:53Guest:It did okay, I think.

00:46:55Guest:I never really, to be quite honest, I never kept track of stuff.

00:46:59Marc:I can't find the last record.

00:47:01Guest:You can't?

00:47:01Marc:No.

00:47:02Guest:Amanda Lee?

00:47:03Marc:Yeah, come find it.

00:47:04Guest:Oh, man.

00:47:04Marc:It's not on Apple Music.

00:47:05Marc:Why is it?

00:47:06Guest:I don't know.

00:47:06Marc:It's weird, because I was thinking that's the one.

00:47:09Guest:It's cool.

00:47:10Guest:It's by far my favorite.

00:47:12Marc:Yeah.

00:47:12Guest:Do you know Mike Viola?

00:47:13Guest:Do I?

00:47:14Guest:I don't think so.

00:47:14Guest:You would love his music.

00:47:16Guest:Yeah.

00:47:17Guest:He's a really good friend of mine, an incredible musician.

00:47:19Guest:He put out a record last year called The American Egypt that will blow your mind.

00:47:24Guest:Yeah.

00:47:25Guest:But I made my record with him.

00:47:26Guest:This is like 2009.

00:47:27Guest:Yeah.

00:47:29Guest:And I felt like that was artistically, again, it was like we could do our Todd Rundgren song.

00:47:36Guest:We could do our Joni song.

00:47:37Guest:We could do our McCartney song.

00:47:39Guest:Yeah.

00:47:40Guest:We just had so much fun.

00:47:41Marc:But not covers, just style.

00:47:42Guest:No, no, stylistically, yeah.

00:47:43Marc:You're a Todd Rundgren person?

00:47:44Marc:Yeah.

00:47:45Guest:Not like a huge fan.

00:47:46Marc:There's a lot there.

00:47:47Guest:It's pretty hit or miss for me.

00:47:50Marc:There's a lot there.

00:47:51Guest:Yeah.

00:47:51Marc:But it's interesting.

00:47:52Marc:There's people that I talk to who I know, who I respect, but I don't necessarily know the whole thing.

00:47:58Marc:With musicians, it's like you might like two records and then they've done 50.

00:48:02Guest:Yeah.

00:48:02Marc:So you're like, how many do I got to listen to?

00:48:05Guest:That kind of describes my relationship with his music.

00:48:07Marc:Right.

00:48:08Guest:Yeah.

00:48:08Guest:Runt, something, anything.

00:48:10Guest:But beyond that, it's a little...

00:48:11Marc:But yeah, in McCartney, of course.

00:48:14Guest:I love McCartney.

00:48:15Marc:How can you not?

00:48:15Marc:So you and Viola did a trip where you were conscious of the styles you were trying to sort of touch at.

00:48:21Guest:Very much so.

00:48:22Marc:I don't know why I couldn't find the record.

00:48:23Guest:I'll get you a copy next time.

00:48:25Marc:You should talk to some people about that.

00:48:27Guest:Yeah.

00:48:28Marc:So, but the movies keep happening.

00:48:31Guest:Yes, ish.

00:48:33Marc:Yeah.

00:48:34Guest:Yeah.

00:48:34Guest:I mean, I keep saying ish, but they, I would say like 2008 is sort of the year that things sort of like 2008, 2009 is when I sort of took maybe more of a conscious step back and like slowed down a little bit.

00:48:51Guest:I got married in 2009 and that's when things really sort of quieted down for me.

00:48:56Marc:Quieted down career wise.

00:48:57Guest:Yes.

00:48:58Marc:Personally.

00:48:59Marc:Personally.

00:49:00Guest:Not so much, but professionally, yes.

00:49:03Guest:And that was a conscious decision because I had been going since I was 15.

00:49:07Marc:But what was your reflection like?

00:49:11Marc:I mean, like, because you'd done... Well, you hadn't done Rapunzel.

00:49:14Guest:You hadn't done... That came, like, at the beginning of my marriage.

00:49:19Guest:I started that in, like, 2009.

00:49:21Guest:It didn't come out until 2010, but yeah.

00:49:23Guest:Right.

00:49:24Marc:But when you're sitting there saying you're taking a break or you're going to reflect a little bit, what was your feeling about who you were at that point?

00:49:34Guest:I think it coincided with a period of growth where I didn't feel understood by the industry and maybe I didn't understand myself.

00:49:44Guest:I felt like I kept coming up against a wall of people see me in one regard.

00:49:49Guest:Which was what?

00:49:49Guest:One light.

00:49:51Guest:I think the roles that I was getting offered or that people sort of tended to think of me for were, you know, the girl next door, which is lovely and is very much a facet of my personality.

00:50:04Guest:But I was frustrated that people were closed-minded and couldn't sort of see me as anything but that.

00:50:12Marc:You wanted to challenge yourself?

00:50:13Marc:Yeah.

00:50:13Marc:What were you looking to do, though?

00:50:15Guest:Anything.

00:50:15Guest:Anything left of center.

00:50:16Guest:I mean, like...

00:50:17Marc:Drug addicts.

00:50:18Marc:Sure.

00:50:19Marc:All of it.

00:50:20Guest:All of it.

00:50:21Marc:Corporate leaders, presidents.

00:50:25Guest:I hadn't really thought so much in that direction.

00:50:28Guest:But yeah, I mean, I was just open to whatever the world sort of was like, oh, that would be an interesting turn for her.

00:50:35Guest:And it wasn't really coming.

00:50:37Marc:Well, you must have pretty good representation.

00:50:39Marc:They seem to keep you working.

00:50:40Guest:You've worked on it.

00:50:42Guest:Yeah.

00:50:42Guest:No, I have.

00:50:42Guest:It's been pretty steady.

00:50:44Guest:But my parents were getting divorced.

00:50:48Guest:How old were you?

00:50:49Guest:23.

00:50:49Guest:Oh, really?

00:50:50Guest:It was really dramatic and traumatic for me.

00:50:53Guest:Yeah, my mom left my father for a woman.

00:50:57Guest:and it was completely surprising.

00:50:59Guest:And it sort of coincided in a year where I had this movie with Diane Keaton coming out.

00:51:07Guest:I had that record Wild Hope coming out.

00:51:09Guest:I had another movie coming out, and I was touring.

00:51:11Guest:It was like maybe the busiest year I'd ever really had.

00:51:14Guest:And it all sort of happened over the Christmas break right before the year started.

00:51:18Marc:She came out?

00:51:19Guest:She...

00:51:21Guest:I ended up finding a letter from her that she wasn't, it was like a therapy exercise that she wasn't intending to send to us.

00:51:28Marc:Where, at the house?

00:51:29Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:51:29Guest:On her computer.

00:51:30Marc:Uh-huh.

00:51:31Guest:Because I had like bought her a laptop and I was setting up her laptop for her for Christmas.

00:51:34Guest:Right.

00:51:35Guest:And I saw this letter in her like, you know, draft folder.

00:51:38Guest:Yeah.

00:51:39Guest:And I didn't know what to do.

00:51:41Guest:And so I sort of confronted her after the holidays and told her that I had read it.

00:51:46Guest:Yeah.

00:51:47Guest:It just, it was really dramatic.

00:51:51Guest:You were the only one who knew?

00:51:52Guest:No, I told my younger brother.

00:51:53Guest:And were you guys?

00:51:57Guest:We were on vacation.

00:51:59Guest:Where?

00:52:00Guest:We were in, I think, North Carolina.

00:52:02Guest:The whole family?

00:52:03Guest:The whole family.

00:52:03Guest:We were on Christmas vacation.

00:52:04Marc:And you had this information?

00:52:05Guest:I found this information, like sitting in the same room as my parents.

00:52:09Marc:And you're like 23.

00:52:10Guest:Yeah.

00:52:11Guest:And I didn't know what to do with it.

00:52:13Guest:So I kind of like put the computer down.

00:52:15Marc:Basically, the information was I've been having an affair.

00:52:17Guest:I've been having an affair on your father.

00:52:19Guest:I'm in love with this woman.

00:52:20Guest:And I feel so bad.

00:52:24Guest:I have kind of talked about it before.

00:52:25Guest:But and.

00:52:28Guest:And essentially like, I'm going to be leaving your father.

00:52:31Guest:And I didn't, I literally just sort of like glanced at it and sort of like words kind of jumped out at me, but I didn't sit there like reading it.

00:52:39Marc:And there was a whole entire shift.

00:52:40Guest:There was so much to process.

00:52:41Guest:An entire shift.

00:52:42Guest:I ran upstairs.

00:52:44Guest:My brother followed me because he could sense that something was wrong.

00:52:47Guest:I told him what was going on.

00:52:49Guest:And I was like, we have to go down and say something to them.

00:52:51Guest:They were like literally across, like sitting on the other couch, watching TV in front of us.

00:52:56Marc:Not just to her, to them?

00:52:57Guest:To them.

00:52:59Guest:My parents were both there, not my mom's partner.

00:53:01Marc:No, no, but I mean, you were going to be the way your dad was going to find out?

00:53:06Guest:No, no, he knew.

00:53:07Guest:That's what it had indicated in the letter, that my dad knew and they were sort of trying to figure out the terms of what their relationship was going to look like.

00:53:14Guest:Oh, wow.

00:53:14Guest:And so I was like ready to go down and confront them.

00:53:17Guest:And my brother, you know, thank goodness was like, I don't think that's the right way to handle this.

00:53:22Guest:My younger brother, he's like, you know, dad seems like, haven't you noticed that he's, he's like, he's really sort of like taking in this vacation.

00:53:32Guest:I think he knows that this is perhaps the last time we're all going to be together as a family.

00:53:35Guest:Let, let him have this time.

00:53:38Guest:And so I had to go through like two or three more days of this vacation, knowing this information and

00:53:44Guest:And that's pretty intuitive.

00:53:46Guest:So angry at my mom.

00:53:48Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:53:48Guest:Yeah.

00:53:49Marc:It was very intuitive of your brother.

00:53:50Marc:It's interesting.

00:53:51Guest:It really was.

00:53:52Guest:Yeah.

00:53:52Guest:He's he's a sensitive, thoughtful guy.

00:53:54Guest:And it was the right move.

00:53:56Guest:And we we like sat out the rest of the family vacation.

00:54:00Guest:And and then after the vacation is when I sort of confronted them, confronted my mom.

00:54:05Guest:how did that go like i mean what did you say i just said i i i found that letter on the laptop and she was shocked and didn't obviously want me to find out that way she was planning on sitting down and telling us in person and wanted to wait until like after the holidays um but i i i wasn't equipped emotionally to sort of like

00:54:28Guest:figure out how to compartmentalize it.

00:54:33Guest:Which part?

00:54:35Guest:Exactly.

00:54:35Guest:I didn't know how to handle it other than to feel... It wasn't that my mother was leaving my father for a woman.

00:54:43Guest:It was that my mother was leaving my father.

00:54:45Guest:They had been together since high school.

00:54:47Guest:They'd been married for 30 years.

00:54:48Guest:I was one of the only people in my orbit whose parents were still together.

00:54:53Guest:So I had a sense of pride about that.

00:54:55Guest:Sure.

00:54:56Guest:So that was what was so devastating and that my mom had had this affair, could have been with anybody.

00:55:01Guest:So I spent a whole year kind of icing her out, which was terrible, but I didn't know what else to do.

00:55:08Marc:And did that relationship succeed?

00:55:11Guest:Yes, they're still together.

00:55:13Marc:Wow.

00:55:13Guest:Yeah.

00:55:14Marc:So she knew.

00:55:14Guest:She knew.

00:55:15Guest:Yeah.

00:55:16Guest:They've been together ever since.

00:55:17Guest:And my dad, like six months later, met my stepmom.

00:55:22Marc:And they're together.

00:55:22Guest:And they've been together.

00:55:23Marc:Yeah.

00:55:24Marc:And do they talk to each other?

00:55:26Guest:They do.

00:55:27Guest:Yeah, they were all at my wedding, and I saw my stepmom and my mom on the dance floor together.

00:55:34Guest:Really?

00:55:35Guest:Yeah, my dad and my mom's partner dancing together.

00:55:38Guest:I don't think they talk often, but it's not acrimonious.

00:55:43Guest:It's not acrimonious.

00:55:43Guest:They have three children together.

00:55:45Marc:And they're happier?

00:55:46Guest:So much happier.

00:55:49Guest:It's crazy how that happens in life.

00:55:51Perfect.

00:55:51Marc:Life.

00:55:52Marc:Yeah.

00:55:53Marc:Yeah.

00:55:53Guest:They're with who they're meant to be with.

00:55:56Marc:Yeah.

00:55:56Guest:They're like more fully realized, more content.

00:56:01Guest:Yeah.

00:56:01Marc:It's painful, these transitions and people get hurt.

00:56:04Guest:But necessary.

00:56:05Marc:Yeah.

00:56:06Marc:It's hard to make those choices, you know?

00:56:08Guest:It is.

00:56:08Marc:And like, how were you brought up religious wise?

00:56:12Marc:Yeah.

00:56:13Guest:Somewhat Catholic, but like fair-weather Catholic.

00:56:18Marc:But would you say your parents were progressive?

00:56:21Marc:Because was the fact that she was with a woman sort of like, what?

00:56:26Guest:It was surprising, but no one was judgmental about it.

00:56:32Guest:And both of my brothers are gay as well.

00:56:34Guest:Oh, okay.

00:56:35Guest:And they had come out at that point before my mom had.

00:56:38Guest:So it wasn't...

00:56:40Guest:It was shocking just on the surface.

00:56:45Marc:Right, but you weren't a conservative family.

00:56:47Marc:No, no, no, not at all.

00:56:48Marc:Right, right.

00:56:49Marc:And both your folks are Catholic?

00:56:51Guest:No, my dad never went to church with us.

00:56:53Guest:It was always my mom's side.

00:56:55Marc:She's Catholic.

00:56:57Guest:She was half Catholic, half Jewish.

00:57:00Guest:My grandmother was Catholic and my grandfather was Jewish.

00:57:02Marc:Did you know them?

00:57:03Guest:I did, yeah.

00:57:04Marc:Yeah?

00:57:05Guest:Yeah.

00:57:05Guest:My mother's parents I knew.

00:57:07Guest:My father's parents died when I was really little.

00:57:10Marc:So you knew your Jewish grandfather?

00:57:12Guest:I did, yeah.

00:57:12Marc:Was he like classic Jewish grandfather?

00:57:14Guest:I mean, he died when I was eight, so I didn't get to know him.

00:57:18Guest:I mean, I have vague memories of him, but I mean, I guess.

00:57:23Marc:She was brought up Catholic.

00:57:25Guest:She celebrated Hanukkah and Christmas is how she always put it.

00:57:29Marc:Uh-huh.

00:57:30Guest:Yeah.

00:57:31Yeah.

00:57:31Marc:Well, this is all very exciting.

00:57:34Marc:And then right around this time with the movies and everything else, then you start the relationship with Ryan at that time.

00:57:41Guest:Like the next year, yeah.

00:57:43Marc:Did you find that the emotional upheaval of all that stuff, did that play into you?

00:57:49Guest:It was the largest factor of, you know, when you feel out of control in a situation.

00:57:55Guest:I can't control my immediate family and the fact that, like, this particular situation sort of blew us up in a way.

00:58:03Marc:Yeah.

00:58:04Marc:For how long?

00:58:04Marc:For, like, a year, you said?

00:58:05Guest:Um...

00:58:06Guest:I mean, kind of indefinitely.

00:58:08Guest:It's fractured us in a way that will never be the same, obviously.

00:58:11Guest:We don't spend holidays all together anymore.

00:58:14Guest:Right, I get it.

00:58:16Guest:And I guess that's sort of an inevitability anyway as you get older and you have your own family.

00:58:20Guest:So I guess I kind of just thought, well, I'll create my own family.

00:58:25Guest:I'll start my own family.

00:58:26Marc:Yeah, my life seems out of control and this guy seems way out of control.

00:58:32Yeah.

00:58:32Guest:In retrospect, yes.

00:58:36Marc:I'm not here to throw Ryan under the bus, but it's just that from everything I've heard about him, he's notoriously... His reputation precedes him.

00:58:47Marc:It does, it does.

00:58:48Marc:But that's interesting because the trauma...

00:58:51Marc:of that experience at the age you were at is, is not completely, you know, like emotionally life threatening, but it is trauma.

00:59:01Guest:It is trauma.

00:59:01Guest:Yeah.

00:59:02Marc:And, and it is a sort of a, a kind of like, you know, like what, what else didn't I know?

00:59:07Marc:And like, you know, what, was it all a lie kind of stuff?

00:59:10Guest:Absolutely.

00:59:10Guest:You reevaluate your entire life and upbringing and yeah.

00:59:15Guest:So this was like my way of, of steadying myself.

00:59:18Marc:But did you ever talk to your mother about, like, was this a surprise to her?

00:59:24Guest:Yes.

00:59:25Guest:Of course.

00:59:25Guest:I mean, I talked to her, like, at the end of that year.

00:59:28Guest:And it was a surprise to her.

00:59:31Guest:It wasn't something she was looking for.

00:59:33Guest:She likes to say that she's not into labels.

00:59:39Guest:So she just fell in love with this person.

00:59:41Guest:And she could have been a woman or a man.

00:59:43Marc:What does that person do?

00:59:44Guest:She is a tennis instructor.

00:59:47Guest:They live in Sedona.

00:59:48Guest:They live in Arizona.

00:59:49Guest:They move from Florida to Arizona.

00:59:51Marc:A lot of red rocks.

00:59:52Guest:Lots of red rocks.

00:59:53Marc:And crystals.

00:59:54Guest:And hiking.

00:59:55Marc:Like-minded people.

00:59:56Guest:Yep.

00:59:57Marc:The one place in Arizona where there might be like-minded people.

01:00:00Guest:Yes.

01:00:02Guest:The one little dot of glue.

01:00:03Marc:Exactly.

01:00:05Marc:Well, that's so so now like you after that, that's that's what brought on the sort of like I got it.

01:00:12Marc:I've got to figure out where I'm at in my life.

01:00:16Marc:And you meet Ryan Ware.

01:00:17Guest:We met on tour.

01:00:18Guest:I was in Minneapolis and he was in Minneapolis.

01:00:24Guest:And I remember we were- Great city.

01:00:25Guest:Love Minneapolis.

01:00:26Guest:I love it.

01:00:27Guest:Love.

01:00:28Guest:And we were driving in and one of the guys in my band was like, hey, Ryan Adams and the Cardinals is playing at that theater.

01:00:34Guest:And I didn't know his music really.

01:00:36Marc:Sure.

01:00:36Guest:But the band was really excited.

01:00:38Marc:Well, he's a band's band.

01:00:39Marc:He's like a musician's musician.

01:00:42Marc:Sure.

01:00:42Marc:Yeah.

01:00:42Guest:So we were playing really early that day.

01:00:45Guest:And we reached out to his people to see if we could go to the show.

01:00:49Marc:You were playing really early?

01:00:50Marc:Like why?

01:00:51Marc:Because of for kids?

01:00:52Guest:I don't know.

01:00:52Guest:I think it was like an all-ages show or something.

01:00:55Guest:So I think we were done by 8 o'clock or something.

01:00:59Guest:So we managed to be able to go to his show.

01:01:01Guest:And I remember we sat in the audience and it was good.

01:01:06Guest:But it was like the stage was really dark.

01:01:10Guest:And I remember in like a semicircle.

01:01:12Guest:And I didn't even know which one was Ryan.

01:01:14Guest:But I was like, wow, that was great.

01:01:15Marc:They're tight.

01:01:16Guest:They were tight.

01:01:17Guest:And afterwards, we got sort of ushered into this area where they said we were going to meet the band.

01:01:22Guest:And I was like, oh, that's cool.

01:01:24Guest:And at the time, my friend Chris Stills, his dad is Steven Stills.

01:01:29Guest:He was on tour and opening up for us.

01:01:31Guest:And he's like- You still friends with him?

01:01:33Guest:I haven't seen Chris in forever.

01:01:35Marc:I wonder how his dad's doing.

01:01:36Guest:I wonder how his dad's doing too.

01:01:37Marc:I think his dad was losing his hearing last I heard.

01:01:39Guest:No way.

01:01:40Marc:Yeah, that's what I heard.

01:01:41Guest:Ugh.

01:01:41Marc:Steve still has one of the great voices.

01:01:44Guest:Well, Chris sounds exactly like his father.

01:01:47Guest:He's got an incredible voice.

01:01:48Marc:Is he still doing it?

01:01:49Guest:He is.

01:01:49Guest:Yeah, he's still making music.

01:01:50Marc:I gotta get hip to that.

01:01:52Guest:So he's like, I know Ryan.

01:01:54Guest:I worked with Ryan on one of his records or something.

01:01:56Guest:And someone comes back to us while we're standing there waiting for the rest of the band comes out, but no Ryan.

01:02:01Guest:They're like, he felt like he had a really bad show and he doesn't want to meet anybody.

01:02:05Guest:I was like, oh, okay.

01:02:06Guest:I'm like a kid.

01:02:07Guest:I'm like, I don't know.

01:02:08Guest:Okay, fine.

01:02:09Marc:That's my guy.

01:02:10Guest:So they tell us to go.

01:02:12Guest:If we want to say hi to him, we can go on the bus.

01:02:15Guest:So we, Chris and I are like, okay.

01:02:19Guest:So we hop on the bus and Ryan's back there and he's on his laptop and he has these glasses on and crazy hair and like a flannel shirt.

01:02:27Guest:And he shows us some ridiculous movie he's made on his laptop called like Pizza Ninja or something that he made with his bandmates on his digital camera.

01:02:36Okay.

01:02:36Guest:And I'm telling you, I was just like, this is, this guy is the most bizarre person, but his mind, I am, I've never met anyone like him.

01:02:46Guest:Yeah.

01:02:46Guest:And as a 23 year old impressionable young woman.

01:02:50Guest:That's how old you were.

01:02:51Guest:I was really taken by him.

01:02:53Guest:Yeah.

01:02:54Guest:I just, like, I had never met someone who had that lens on the world.

01:02:58Marc:Uh-huh.

01:02:59Marc:Blew your mind.

01:03:00Guest:Blew my mind.

01:03:01Guest:And you were in.

01:03:01Guest:I mean, just, he was so unabashedly, like, himself, I guess.

01:03:07Guest:Yeah.

01:03:08Guest:And I left, and I remember turning to Chris, and I was like...

01:03:12Guest:And he was like kind of a little, kind of told me like, you know what?

01:03:19Marc:How old was he at that time?

01:03:20Guest:Oh my gosh.

01:03:21Guest:He's 10 years older than me.

01:03:22Guest:So he was like in his mid thirties.

01:03:24Marc:Yeah.

01:03:25Marc:And that was it.

01:03:26Guest:You were smitten.

01:03:27Guest:I was a smitten.

01:03:28Marc:And then he started dating somehow.

01:03:29Guest:Yeah.

01:03:30Guest:Shortly there, a couple months after that.

01:03:32Guest:Yeah.

01:03:32Guest:We're out here.

01:03:33Guest:He lived in New York.

01:03:35Guest:So we sort of dated, like I would go to New York.

01:03:38Marc:And you were living out here then?

01:03:39Guest:I was living out here.

01:03:40Guest:Yeah.

01:03:40Guest:I've been out here the whole time.

01:03:41Marc:The whole time since what?

01:03:45Guest:99.

01:03:46Marc:Since the first record?

01:03:47Marc:Mm-hmm.

01:03:48Marc:So you marry Ryan.

01:03:50Marc:Mm-hmm.

01:03:50Marc:And as you look back on it in terms of your own creativity, I mean, I imagine musically it must have been a bit intimidating.

01:03:58Mm-hmm.

01:03:59Guest:Yes.

01:04:01Guest:Yes and no.

01:04:02Guest:I mean, without getting too into the weeds, he is an incredibly prolific writer.

01:04:10Guest:He's constantly writing music and poetry.

01:04:14Guest:I think that's how he stays sane.

01:04:17Guest:Yeah, I guess.

01:04:19Guest:I don't know him.

01:04:21Guest:I think that's just where he operates.

01:04:26Guest:That's where he feels comfortable.

01:04:27Guest:It's ingrained in the fiber of who he is.

01:04:30Guest:If he's not creating, he's not himself.

01:04:34Guest:So it was intimidating, but also it became the norm.

01:04:38Guest:So after a while, that kind of faded, and you're like, oh, this is just my husband, and he's writing another song.

01:04:45Guest:It's not that big of a deal.

01:04:46Marc:And what were you doing?

01:04:48Guest:I was living my life for him.

01:04:52Marc:Yeah.

01:04:55Marc:Well, codependency action?

01:04:56Guest:Yeah.

01:04:57Guest:Taking care of the... Being the mother.

01:05:00Guest:Yeah.

01:05:00Marc:Yeah, and that becomes...

01:05:04Guest:It's an entirely unhealthy dynamic.

01:05:06Marc:Well, yeah, because you lose yourself.

01:05:09Guest:Oh, I had no sense of self.

01:05:10Guest:I was imperceptible.

01:05:13Guest:I was so small in my own world.

01:05:15Guest:Yeah.

01:05:15Marc:It's interesting.

01:05:16Marc:Now, did you find that, can you identify that dynamic in your parents?

01:05:20Guest:No.

01:05:21Marc:It just was a surprise, the kind of enabling, trying to control the person thing or trying to take care of somebody who doesn't quite take care of themselves.

01:05:31Guest:Yeah, I think a little bit of all of that.

01:05:34Guest:It made me feel worthy.

01:05:36Guest:It made me feel like I had value if I could be there for somebody else and serve their needs, you know, because it I think it like not to go down again a rabbit hole with like therapy, but I think it goes back to feeling undeserving of what I've had in my life.

01:05:53Guest:You know, as a young person and finding success.

01:05:56Guest:And I think there was part of me that's like, OK, well, this part of my life is I'm OK to not live for myself right now.

01:06:05Guest:This guy needs me.

01:06:06Guest:He needs me.

01:06:08Guest:Yeah.

01:06:08Guest:And I know how to do that.

01:06:09Guest:I know this person who who's estranged from their family, like I can show them what it's like to have a normal life and to celebrate birthdays and holidays and go on vacations.

01:06:18Marc:And this is after your family is shattered.

01:06:20Guest:Exactly.

01:06:22Guest:It's like, let's do this together.

01:06:23Guest:And I thought that that's how it was going to sort of unfold, but it didn't.

01:06:27Marc:So you ended up a depleted husk of a person?

01:06:32Guest:Yes.

01:06:32Guest:Essentially.

01:06:34Marc:Yeah, just sort of like devoid of self and kind of running into things.

01:06:38Marc:Like a codependency sort of bottom hitting.

01:06:41Marc:You know, sometimes people get clumsy.

01:06:44Marc:They wreck cars.

01:06:46Guest:No.

01:06:46Marc:No, good.

01:06:48Guest:I didn't do that.

01:06:49Marc:Yeah.

01:06:49Guest:I think it like it my codependency fed into his codependency and some other issues underlying issues that like it was just the perfect cacophony of madness.

01:07:02Guest:Yeah.

01:07:02Guest:It really was.

01:07:03Guest:I was so not serving myself.

01:07:07Marc:And what was the moment where you were like, I gotta get out?

01:07:12Guest:I felt like I was drowning.

01:07:16Guest:Yeah.

01:07:16Guest:It was so untenable and unsustainable.

01:07:21Guest:And I was so lonely.

01:07:22Guest:I was so sad.

01:07:23Marc:Because he was away all the time or you were lonely with him?

01:07:26Guest:I was lonely with him.

01:07:27Marc:Oh, it's the worst.

01:07:28Guest:The worst.

01:07:29Guest:There's nothing worse.

01:07:30Marc:Yeah, because part of you detaches and there's just this talking thing there.

01:07:34Marc:Yeah.

01:07:35Marc:Yeah.

01:07:35Marc:And you're like, that's talking again.

01:07:38Marc:What am I doing?

01:07:39Marc:You're thinking about being other places.

01:07:41Guest:I just, I knew that this wasn't the rest of my life.

01:07:45Guest:I knew that this was not the person I was supposed to be with.

01:07:49Guest:I was not the person I was meant to be.

01:07:51Marc:Was there a lot of drama?

01:07:53Marc:Like yelling and screaming and stuff?

01:07:55Guest:Yeah.

01:07:56Guest:And I am not a dramatic person.

01:07:59Guest:I'm not a fighter.

01:08:00Marc:Did you become one?

01:08:02Guest:I would try to fight back, but I'm not.

01:08:04Guest:Yeah.

01:08:06Guest:I hate confrontation.

01:08:07Guest:I shrink from it.

01:08:08Guest:I avoid it at all costs.

01:08:09Guest:I'm not good at it.

01:08:10Guest:And you're living with it.

01:08:11Guest:And I lived with it.

01:08:12Guest:And I'm just like, it's just not built in the fiber of who I am.

01:08:16Guest:I'm not good at it.

01:08:17Guest:I don't, I can't find my words.

01:08:19Marc:Yeah.

01:08:19Marc:So you just, did you, were you like, I'm done?

01:08:21Guest:Kind of, if it were only that easy, but unfortunately it was not.

01:08:27Guest:It just was a lot of endless conversations.

01:08:33Guest:Crying?

01:08:33Guest:Conversations in a loop, crying, yeah, all of that.

01:08:36Guest:For months and months and months and months and months, even after filing for divorce.

01:08:41Marc:Sorry you went through that.

01:08:42Guest:Thank you.

01:08:43Guest:It's okay.

01:08:44Guest:It's all part of it.

01:08:45Guest:I needed it.

01:08:46Marc:How long were you with him?

01:08:48Guest:Almost seven years.

01:08:49Marc:Oh, so that's a long run.

01:08:51Guest:It's a long run.

01:08:52Marc:So for about three and a half, it's great.

01:08:55Marc:And then for about three, it's just like, oh.

01:08:59Marc:And then for about a half, it's like, I might kill myself.

01:09:04Guest:More or less, yeah.

01:09:05Marc:Yeah, I had two seven, eight-year ones.

01:09:08Marc:Wow.

01:09:10Marc:Where it's weird because you realize at some point in the middle of those things where you're like, I shouldn't be, this shouldn't keep going.

01:09:17Marc:No.

01:09:18Guest:It's not fair to anybody.

01:09:19Marc:Yeah, and then it goes on for years more.

01:09:22Guest:Oh, man.

01:09:23Marc:Yeah.

01:09:23Marc:What'd you do when you got out?

01:09:27Guest:Six months later, I got This Is Us.

01:09:30Marc:Oh, so this is relatively fresh.

01:09:34Guest:Yeah.

01:09:35Guest:I mean, it's three years.

01:09:36Guest:Three years.

01:09:37Guest:Right, right, right.

01:09:37Guest:Yeah, three and a half years.

01:09:38Guest:But in the span of a lifetime.

01:09:40Guest:It's crazy, though, when you're not prioritizing yourself and your needs in life.

01:09:50Guest:i couldn't get traction with anything i was trying so desperately i was like all i want before ryan with ryan i was like all i want is to be able to do a television show hopefully here in los angeles have a nice job have a nice job insurance yeah well i can just like i can come home every night i have my husband's here and he'll be on the road yes i desperately wanted a family boy did you dodge a bullet

01:10:15Guest:Yeah, I think I just innately knew, like, let's wait for things to settle down and find some even ground before I venture into that.

01:10:25Guest:Do you ever think about that?

01:10:26Guest:Oh, yeah, all the time.

01:10:27Guest:Well, I'm just glad, as everyone said, like, you're so lucky that you didn't have children because you're forever tied to that person.

01:10:33Guest:And I don't want to be at all.

01:10:35Marc:So now you're back, fresh slate.

01:10:38Guest:So now it's a fresh slate.

01:10:41Marc:So would you call that time, though, like career-wise, were you...

01:10:45Marc:Because you'd made this decision to sort of lock into something emotionally that you could at least, I don't know if control is the right word, but rebuild for yourself, right?

01:10:54Marc:And you kind of prioritize that over everything.

01:10:57Guest:I did.

01:10:57Guest:And I didn't really have a choice.

01:10:59Guest:I knew that I couldn't be in that relationship.

01:11:01Guest:It wouldn't sustain itself if I was working as well.

01:11:04Guest:Because there would be glimmers of that, of me.

01:11:06Guest:I would do little jobs.

01:11:07Guest:It's not like I completely stopped working.

01:11:09Guest:But I would do things here or there.

01:11:11Guest:But it became abundantly clear while I was working.

01:11:14Guest:Things would completely fall apart at home.

01:11:16Marc:Really?

01:11:17Guest:Yeah.

01:11:17Guest:So it showed me.

01:11:20Marc:In what way?

01:11:21Guest:It just, you know, if you're not there to take care of someone, essentially.

01:11:24Guest:Who needs that?

01:11:25Guest:Who needs it.

01:11:26Guest:Emotionally, literally.

01:11:28Guest:Yeah.

01:11:28Guest:so you get estranged inside a week yeah like you come home and you're like what's good or just like endless i mean i hate to be so personal but it's like endless like i couldn't do my job because there was just a constant stream of of trying to pay attention to this person who needed me yeah and who wouldn't let me do anything else because that's rough yeah it was so you're kind of uh you were kind of stifled

01:11:53Guest:completely hostage situation.

01:11:55Guest:So it was like, I knew that I wouldn't, I even had my, my best friend at the time was like, you will not be able to work or find any semblance of success while you're in this marriage.

01:12:05Guest:And I remember sort of like poo pooing her at the time, but also kind of quietly agreeing.

01:12:11Marc:Yeah.

01:12:11Guest:And, and so I'm telling you those six months after I filed for divorce and the divorce was final.

01:12:18Guest:I got the show.

01:12:19Marc:Yeah.

01:12:20Guest:Yeah.

01:12:20Marc:Well, I mean, I guess you were emotionally ready.

01:12:24Guest:I was ready.

01:12:25Guest:You had a lot of stuff.

01:12:26Guest:I had a lot of baggage to bring to the table.

01:12:28Guest:A lot of stuff inside.

01:12:29Guest:Lots of tears right underneath the surface.

01:12:30Marc:Multigenerational tears.

01:12:33Marc:You had enough emotional baggage to span three generations.

01:12:37Guest:Yes.

01:12:38Guest:That's what we do.

01:12:39Marc:That's what you do.

01:12:40Marc:Yeah.

01:12:41Marc:Well, I mean, I'm glad it's one of those things where, you know, and I have them too in my life where you have these relationships that if you really just think like just one or two things could have happened and that road would have been rough.

01:12:57Guest:Entirely different.

01:12:58Guest:Yeah.

01:12:58Yeah.

01:12:58Marc:So, and the show got, what was the audition process like for This Is Us?

01:13:05Marc:They age you really well.

01:13:06Marc:You do a good job with it.

01:13:07Guest:Thanks, they do a great job, right?

01:13:09Marc:Well, it's the interesting thing about you and the small amount of research that I did was that it seems that you were able to stand out in a lot of the roles you did in movies that may not have been great.

01:13:24Guest:Thanks.

01:13:25Marc:Yeah, I mean, like, well, it seems like, you know, for someone like Roger Ebert to consistently like you in things that he didn't like, I mean, that's a tough audience.

01:13:35Guest:It is a tough audience, yeah.

01:13:37Marc:But he did, didn't he?

01:13:38Guest:Yeah.

01:13:38Marc:And so you have, you know, a unique thing as an actress, and this is great that you can really kind of work the whole range of it.

01:13:47Guest:Yeah.

01:13:47Marc:But did you just, were they looking for you or did you have to, was it a... No, I auditioned.

01:13:51Marc:Like it was a big process?

01:13:53Mm-hmm.

01:13:53Guest:It was one of those pilots that was what they call off cycle.

01:13:57Guest:So I remember it was like November.

01:13:58Guest:And usually, you know, pilot season here in this town is like January to April.

01:14:03Marc:Now it's all the time now.

01:14:04Guest:Well, yeah, with the different streaming platforms and stuff.

01:14:06Guest:But like traditional network pilot season is the beginning of the year.

01:14:10Marc:Was it February?

01:14:10Marc:Yeah, something like that.

01:14:11Guest:Yeah, it's like January to April or something.

01:14:13Marc:Right, yeah.

01:14:14Guest:So I auditioned in November and I was at the beginning of the audition process and the feedback was like, they really liked you, but now they're going to go to New York and Chicago and read a bunch of other girls.

01:14:25Guest:So I didn't hear anything for about six weeks.

01:14:28Guest:And then they came back and said, we'd love to read you and a handful of other girls with a bunch of guys that we're considering and just prepare your sides.

01:14:39Guest:And I did.

01:14:40Guest:And I went in and the only guy I read with was Milo.

01:14:44Guest:And I felt good about that because I heard going in like he's the guy to beat.

01:14:48Guest:Right.

01:14:49Guest:They love him.

01:14:49Guest:Yeah.

01:14:49Guest:Everybody wants him to get the part.

01:14:51Marc:Yeah.

01:14:51Guest:So.

01:14:52Marc:That's so harsh.

01:14:53Marc:It's the worst.

01:14:54Marc:That process of pleasing studio executives and reading in front of like a room full of just judgy faces.

01:15:00Guest:I get like flop sweat.

01:15:01Guest:I can't.

01:15:02Guest:Just thinking about it.

01:15:03Guest:I'm the worst.

01:15:04Marc:The worst.

01:15:04Marc:Testing for that stuff.

01:15:05Guest:Oh yeah.

01:15:05Marc:The worst.

01:15:06Guest:i'm terrible in the room too you are yeah i just i feel like i'm like just give me the part i can do it like just i'll show up on set and i'll show you but just believe just but trust me okay but it's like being terrible at standardized tests but knowing that you have the capacity to like do the work sure just auditions suck oh you must have been so happy to get it how long did it go on for a

01:15:29Guest:Uh, the, the audition?

01:15:30Marc:Well, the process.

01:15:31Guest:Um, it was like, uh, probably another month.

01:15:34Guest:Yeah.

01:15:35Marc:Yeah.

01:15:36Marc:That's a lot.

01:15:36Marc:Yeah.

01:15:37Marc:Now, did you like, when you read the pilot, were you like, Oh, this is good.

01:15:40Guest:Yeah.

01:15:41Marc:Oh yeah.

01:15:41Guest:I did.

01:15:42Guest:Cause I, I remember I had just signed with a new agent and we had talked a lot about like, let's not do traditional pilot season cause I had done it.

01:15:51Marc:The business is going in different directions.

01:15:52Guest:Totally.

01:15:52Guest:But also I'd like done it three or four times and had been disappointed and my pilots hadn't gotten picked up.

01:15:58Guest:And I was so just like shattered.

01:16:00Guest:Yeah.

01:16:01Guest:And two weeks after that meeting, I get this like script for an NBC pilot called the Untitled Dan Fogelman Project.

01:16:08Guest:And I was like, what?

01:16:09Guest:We just talked about like not doing network pilot season.

01:16:12Yeah.

01:16:12Guest:And, uh, but I knew my, I knew my, my folks were, you know, on it.

01:16:18Guest:And of course I read it and immediately it was like, this is, this is incredible writing.

01:16:23Guest:And the concept, it left the door wide open to go like in a million different directions.

01:16:29Guest:So I wanted to be a part of it.

01:16:31Guest:Yeah.

01:16:31Marc:And you are.

01:16:31Guest:Yeah.

01:16:32Marc:But it's, it's, and it's like a, it's a tremendous hit on a network network.

01:16:37Marc:And that doesn't happen that much anymore.

01:16:41Guest:I think we're a dying breed.

01:16:42Guest:Kind of, right?

01:16:43Guest:We are.

01:16:43Guest:No, absolutely.

01:16:45Marc:Yeah.

01:16:45Marc:And it keeps winning all these prizes because it's so emotional.

01:16:49Guest:People are acting the shit out of it.

01:16:52Guest:Trying our best.

01:16:53Marc:And tell Sullivan, I'm sorry if I upset him.

01:16:55Guest:I'll let him know.

01:16:56Marc:Didn't I apologize?

01:16:57Guest:You did.

01:16:58Marc:I mean, I know who he is now because I've watched the show a few times.

01:17:01Marc:He's very good in it.

01:17:01Marc:He's funny.

01:17:02Guest:He's the best.

01:17:03Marc:Yeah, he's great.

01:17:04Marc:And he was also in that thing on HBO, right?

01:17:06Guest:He was.

01:17:07Guest:He was also on The Nick, which I haven't seen, but everybody raves about.

01:17:11Marc:But, okay, so you never made a record.

01:17:13Marc:You were on Ryan's record, but you guys never did a record together.

01:17:17Marc:You never did any of his songs.

01:17:18Guest:No, no, no.

01:17:19Guest:But I would sing on his records, yeah.

01:17:21Marc:It's weird that he never wrote enough songs for you.

01:17:25Marc:Okay.

01:17:27Guest:No comment.

01:17:28Marc:But you are going to return to music?

01:17:30Guest:I am.

01:17:31Marc:Yeah.

01:17:32Marc:And what are your ideas about that for yourself?

01:17:35Guest:I mean, I think the great thing about not having any sort of expectation from the outside world is it gives you the utmost freedom to do whatever you want.

01:17:43Marc:Are you in the studio?

01:17:44Guest:I'm going to during our hiatus.

01:17:47Marc:And you're writing songs?

01:17:48Guest:Mm-hmm.

01:17:49Guest:I have a good handful.

01:17:50Marc:Yeah?

01:17:50Guest:Right now, yeah.

01:17:51Marc:And how are they?

01:17:52Marc:Are they personal?

01:17:53Guest:How are they different?

01:17:54Guest:Yeah, they're very personal.

01:17:56Guest:But I mean, I feel like I've lived a life in the last 10 years.

01:18:00Guest:I have plenty to say.

01:18:02Marc:Yeah.

01:18:02Guest:I think I've also like.

01:18:04Marc:Sounds like you could write a country record.

01:18:05Guest:I could write a country record.

01:18:07Guest:It is.

01:18:07Guest:It'll be like a nouveau country record.

01:18:10Guest:Yeah.

01:18:10Guest:It'll be like a Jason Isbell record.

01:18:12Marc:Yeah.

01:18:13Guest:How good is that guy?

01:18:14Guest:I love Jason.

01:18:14Marc:Such a great guy.

01:18:15Guest:He really is.

01:18:16Guest:Have you had him in?

01:18:17Marc:I have, that was a big show.

01:18:19Guest:I gotta listen to that one.

01:18:20Marc:I was in, that's a great thing because not unlike most things, I had to catch up on him, but we were in Minneapolis together.

01:18:29Marc:We were both on that live radio show, Wits.

01:18:34Guest:Oh, wow.

01:18:35Marc:So I took that opportunity to interview him.

01:18:37Marc:So he had been on the road and he performed on, I did comedy or whatever I did on that show.

01:18:43Marc:And he sang.

01:18:44Marc:And then that night, I was going to record him because I got a thing that I travel with when I do him on the road.

01:18:49Marc:And I was in, it was like 1230 at night.

01:18:51Marc:We were in a hotel room.

01:18:52Marc:And he was beat from the road.

01:18:56Marc:But we had this great conversation.

01:18:57Marc:And then he performed that song, Elephant.

01:19:00Marc:But literally, I was in the hotel room.

01:19:02Guest:I could cry thinking about it.

01:19:04Marc:I was holding a mic to his mouth and holding one to the guitar while he sang that in front of him.

01:19:09Marc:And I recorded it like that.

01:19:11Marc:That guy.

01:19:13Marc:It was intense, man.

01:19:14Guest:He's so special.

01:19:15Guest:He's such a special writer.

01:19:17Marc:No kidding.

01:19:18Guest:Yeah.

01:19:19Guest:So, yeah, such a talent.

01:19:20Guest:He went on tour with Ryan, and I met him then.

01:19:23Guest:This was years ago.

01:19:25Marc:With his band then?

01:19:26Guest:No.

01:19:27Guest:Solo?

01:19:27Guest:Yeah, he was solo.

01:19:28Guest:You choked up from that.

01:19:30Guest:I mean, just thinking about that song.

01:19:31Guest:I remember because Ryan was going to produce that record at one point in time.

01:19:35Guest:It was a whole thing.

01:19:37Guest:So I heard those demos.

01:19:38Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:19:39Guest:And just remember thinking like and watching him play some of them on stage.

01:19:44Guest:Like it was he's he's an artist for this generation.

01:19:47Guest:Just great.

01:19:48Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:19:48Marc:Yeah.

01:19:49Marc:Yeah.

01:19:50Marc:So you should get him involved in your record.

01:19:53Yeah.

01:19:53Marc:See if Jason will come out and do it too.

01:19:55Guest:I mean, he's a busy gentleman.

01:19:59Guest:And I want to work with my husband.

01:20:02Marc:Yeah.

01:20:02Guest:Yeah.

01:20:03Marc:The one that wants to work with you?

01:20:08Guest:But I want to make music with Taylor.

01:20:10Guest:I want to make music with Mike.

01:20:12Guest:I mean, I have like a whole, like Blake, like there's so many friends of ours.

01:20:17Marc:Yeah.

01:20:18Marc:Well, that Dawes world is a whole world unto itself.

01:20:21Guest:It is, yeah.

01:20:22Guest:I mean, there's such an incredible scene of young musicians here in Los Angeles.

01:20:27Marc:Oh, no kidding.

01:20:28Marc:Yeah, yeah, definitely.

01:20:29Guest:To tap into.

01:20:30Marc:Yeah, Blake's great.

01:20:31Marc:He's great.

01:20:32Guest:Yeah.

01:20:32Marc:He's a prodigy.

01:20:33Marc:He's a genius.

01:20:34Marc:He's a genius.

01:20:35Marc:Great producer.

01:20:36Marc:He is.

01:20:36Marc:Well, I'm excited to hear what songs you have about your life.

01:20:40Guest:Yeah.

01:20:42Marc:What are you thinking?

01:20:43Marc:When are you going to get that?

01:20:44Guest:I mean, our hiatus is like March through June, so hopefully I have something out this year.

01:20:50Marc:And you got a studio at the house?

01:20:51Guest:No, we don't.

01:20:53Guest:Really?

01:20:53Guest:We'll go to like East West or some cool studio out here.

01:20:56Marc:Get some of the fellas?

01:20:57Guest:Yeah, get some of the fellas and... Do the record.

01:21:00Guest:Do it up.

01:21:00Marc:We'll bring some ladies too if you can.

01:21:02Marc:Sure.

01:21:03Marc:Yeah, find a couple.

01:21:04Guest:We'll include them too.

01:21:04Marc:Okay, good.

01:21:05Marc:Good talking to you, Mandy.

01:21:07Guest:You too.

01:21:07Guest:Thanks for this.

01:21:08Marc:Yep.

01:21:13Marc:Okay, that was great.

01:21:17Marc:We dished a bit.

01:21:18Marc:Okay, you know, she dished a bit, you know, but relationships are tough, man.

01:21:22Marc:Crazy and sometimes fucked up.

01:21:26Marc:But it was nice to learn more about her.

01:21:28Marc:This Is Us is the show she's on, obviously, and of course, many people love it.

01:21:32Marc:airs Tuesday nights at 9 p.m.

01:21:34Marc:Eastern on NBC.

01:21:35Marc:And don't forget, grab yourself a vinyl copy of my stand-up special, Too Real, as well as posters, T-shirts, mugs, books, whatever, at podswag.com slash WTF, or click on the merch link at WTFpod.com.

01:21:50Marc:Also, tour dates, WTFpod.com slash tour.

01:21:55Marc:I'm going to be in the UK, and I'll shortly be announcing a few club dates here in the States.

01:22:01Marc:Alright, so let's play some guitar with my Echoplex and my Wawa pedal.

01:22:13Guest:Wawa.

01:22:20Guest:.

01:22:25Guest:.

01:22:45Guest:.

01:22:45Guest:Boomer lives!