Episode 984 - Sam Lipsyte
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it how's it going i know i've been doing this kind of the same way at the beginning i
Marc:For years, for years, but I enjoy the consistency.
Marc:I turn on the mic and I hear myself say those words and I'm in it.
Marc:I'm ready to talk to you.
Marc:And by the way, how is everything?
Marc:Are you okay?
Marc:Did you get it all done?
Marc:You feeling better?
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, maybe you should, like, steam a little bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Neti pot.
Marc:Did you neti pot?
Marc:Did you get a flu shot?
Marc:You didn't, huh?
Marc:Well, I'm not going to say.
Marc:Look, who knows?
Marc:But, you know, I mean, you should probably take one day off.
Marc:I mean, you probably shouldn't be at work today.
Marc:Am I right?
Marc:I mean, look at you.
Marc:You're all...
Marc:Covered in snot and you can't breathe and your eyes are watering and you're touching things.
Marc:Maybe you should go home.
Marc:Well, you think you'll lose your job if you go home?
Marc:So maybe if everybody gets sick because of you, everyone can have the day off and you're a hero, a secret hero.
Marc:Who am I talking to right now?
Marc:What's happening, folks?
Marc:I have a couple of announcements.
Marc:I do.
Marc:I'm going to be doing some more small batch artisanal local shows here in Los Angeles, starting with a show at Dynasty Typewriter on Sunday, January 20th.
Marc:And we're going to add a bunch more.
Marc:That's a small space.
Marc:It's a great space.
Marc:It's in sort of near downtown Los Angeles.
Marc:It's a little theater.
Marc:And I'm going to be working through some stuff.
Marc:You know, not issues, maybe a few issues.
Marc:But, I mean, I got to get ready.
Marc:I got to get my head in the game.
Marc:I got to get the hour thing together and do it.
Marc:You know, we've been through this before.
Marc:But since I've been shooting and kind of busy, I haven't had time.
Marc:So I'll do a little residency over there at the Dynasty Typewriter.
Marc:I'll let you know when that is.
Marc:But I do know the one gig.
Marc:That we have on the books at this time is January 20th.
Marc:That's a Sunday.
Marc:You can get the link to the tickets at wtfpod.com slash tour.
Marc:We good with that?
Marc:Come down.
Marc:You can also usually see me at the comedy store on the weekends, but this will be like an hour plus set.
Marc:Oh, I got to find some people to...
Marc:Feature for me.
Marc:Remind me to do that.
Marc:What else?
Marc:Sam Lipsight is here.
Marc:Sam fucking Lipsight is my guest today.
Marc:Sam Lipsight is a dear friend of mine, one of my best friends.
Marc:And we haven't known each other our entire life.
Marc:But, you know, when you meet some sort of I don't know if it's kindred spirit or when you have an understanding with somebody or where you just have such a deep mutual respect and an understanding of people.
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:I think Sam's a genius.
Marc:He's a great writer.
Marc:He's one of the funniest writers I know.
Marc:If you like.
Marc:The sort of legacy of Barry Hanna, Kurt Vonnegut, Joseph Heller, Terry Southern even a bit.
Marc:But just 70s style satire.
Marc:Fucking hilarious.
Marc:Sam Lipsight.
Marc:Sam fucking Lipsight.
Marc:Sam Lipsight is so funny.
Marc:I actually read one of his stories, The Worm in Philly, for the Paris Review podcast.
Marc:Go look that up.
Marc:Mark Maron reads The Worm in Philly.
Marc:I loved it.
Marc:It's so great to read funny material, but just also, he's so tight, man.
Marc:You know, his prose is so tight.
Marc:And so his voice is so singular.
Marc:I am happy to be friends with this man.
Marc:And he's one of these guys.
Marc:Sam is one of these guys.
Marc:He teaches at Columbia.
Marc:He's written like, I guess, four novels now.
Marc:Let's see the subject, Steve Homeland, the ask and the new one.
Marc:Hark.
Marc:Hark.
Marc:This book is hilarious.
Marc:They're all pretty hilarious.
Marc:There's no doubt.
Marc:He's got a collection of stories called Venus Drive and another one, I think, called The Fun Parts, is it?
Marc:I think, yeah, The Fun Parts.
Marc:You should read, oh, he just wrote a story, actually, that I just read in The New Yorker.
Marc:I just read a new lip sight story called Show Recent Some Love, which was hilarious.
Marc:Look, some of you people trust me in terms of my taste, and I'm not misleading you.
Marc:You can start anywhere.
Marc:Go read the short story, the new one, and then you can pre-order the book.
Marc:You can go to harkthebook.com.
Marc:He's going to be touring.
Marc:Sam's going on a tour.
Marc:He's going to be touring bookstores in New York, Washington, D.C., Brooklyn, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Corte Madera, California, Los Angeles, Tulsa, Austin, Oxford, Mississippi, Princeton, New Jersey, Boston.
Marc:You can go to harkthebook.com.
Marc:You can preorder the book.
Marc:You can read some advanced praise.
Marc:And you can check out his tour to go hear him read, which is hilarious.
Marc:Sam is a guy that when I go to New York, we sit and talk.
Marc:And this is actually he's been on the show like three times, partially like smaller interviews.
Marc:He was there at the very beginning.
Marc:He was on episode 10.
Marc:He was on episode 52 and he was on episode 196, which was a live one.
Marc:And none of these were a full WTF interview.
Marc:Also, he was on my old radio show Morning Sedition quite a bunch.
Marc:Anyways, me and Sam, when I go to New York, we go out to eat.
Marc:Lately, we've been having Greek food and we just talk.
Marc:And it's something we enjoy doing.
Marc:We sit and we'll talk for maybe an hour or so at dinner.
Marc:Then we'll walk and talk for another hour.
Marc:And then maybe we'll have coffee and we'll talk some more.
Marc:And just let it roll.
Marc:Let the thinking and laughing begin.
Marc:And I've seen him through a lot of books.
Marc:I think I met him right after...
Marc:The subject Steve came out and then in Homeland, he wrote a lot of that book in my old apartment, which I had left in Astoria that was pretty empty.
Marc:And I just let him have it as sort of a a writing zone.
Marc:And I think he sat in the kitchen and and wrote some of Homeland in there.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:You know, there's I don't read a lot of fiction.
Marc:I've had a few fiction writers on here, but very few.
Marc:And every time that Sam writes a book, I get very excited.
Marc:And I'm excited again.
Marc:But this, what I'm really excited about is this is the first time that we've talked, you know, for the whole thing.
Marc:The big WTF interview with my buddy Sam Lipsight.
Marc:Yeah, it's going to happen any second now.
Marc:It's going to happen.
Marc:I like to read some emails where somebody who who is not prone to writing emails and and almost like, you know, feels like like he had to write it because, you know, it just it had to be done.
Marc:Writes me an email.
Marc:Yeah, I'll read that.
Marc:The subject line was a grabber.
Marc:Not a ball licker.
Marc:I just wanted to say and then into the the body of the email.
Marc:Your ability to make guests feel comfortable through your intrinsically connected experience is astonishing.
Marc:Paul McCartney interview was transcendent.
Marc:Robin Williams interview.
Marc:They ought to put that in a time capsule.
Marc:I'm just scratching the surface.
Marc:Buddy Hackett's son interview.
Marc:I don't think you even comprehend how good that was.
Marc:I'm not going to list them off.
Marc:You know how good this shit is.
Marc:Let me just say this.
Marc:I'm constantly amazed at how much you make your guests feel at home through kindred moments and flat-out shared experiences.
Marc:I don't know any other way to put it.
Marc:You rock, dude.
Marc:It matters not, but I'm a 61-year-old musician from Detroit.
Marc:Trust me, motherfucker, when I tell you that it takes a lot to impress me.
Marc:I just feel you need to know that you have touched my soul.
Marc:Paul.
Marc:P.S.
Marc:I have never ever sent an email to a quote unquote celebrity.
Marc:I think it's safe to say that my record is intact.
Marc:Thank you, Paul, for just feeling like you had to do that because I'll tell you honestly, Paul, made me feel good.
Marc:It may, you know, I'll take it.
Marc:I'll take it.
Marc:You know, in these days where things are tentative,
Marc:for the existence of the planet i'll take it thank you paul i'm glad i made a difference so all right so i i think i've told you enough about sam i love him as a person i i uh i respect him as an artist uh he is one of the funniest
Marc:Writers I know.
Marc:And I'm thrilled with this new book, which I read immediately.
Marc:You can go to HarkTheBook.com for his tour dates and for pre-order.
Marc:You can pre-order it now.
Marc:It actually comes out next Tuesday, January 15th.
Marc:You can also check out the other books I mentioned, The Subject Steve, Homeland, The Ask, short story collections, Venus Drive, and the fun parts, the latest story over at The New Yorker.
Marc:I have a few laughs.
Marc:He fucking deals with all of it, and now I'm going to deal with him, and we're going to deal with us, and we're going to deal with all of it.
Marc:This is me talking to Sam Lipsight in a hotel room in New York City.
Guest:I used to sing in a rock band, so I'm used to a little bit of this.
Marc:Yeah, do you feel it coming back to you?
Guest:I feel the surge.
Guest:I did a thing where I put my whole mouth over the mic and scream into it.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:So you made that horrible, distorted noise?
Guest:Yeah, exactly, and the sound technicians did not like that at all.
Marc:That was back in the days of Dung Beetle.
Marc:Dung Beetle, yeah.
Marc:Was that what it was called?
Marc:It was called Dung Beetle, yeah.
Marc:You were exploring the freedom of the form.
Guest:We were pushing the boundaries a little bit.
Marc:Yeah, for those few people.
Marc:You pushed the boundaries.
Guest:For about 12 people.
Marc:But did Dung Beetle ever record?
Guest:We recorded a few things here and there, never a full record, but we did some singles and we were on a soundtrack for an independent film, things like that.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:What film?
Guest:It was called Half Cocked, and it came out in the 90s.
Marc:Same 12 people enjoyed that movie?
Guest:do you remember the band uh well there are a lot of bands that were on the soundtrack like the grifters i don't know if you remember them kind of yeah what year are we talking i'm trying to figure out when people ask me about music it's sort of like was i even doing anything but wandering around doing i guess it was mid 90s it's like yeah i might have missed the whole i think i missed most of the 90s it's sort of a it's sort of a movie about a fictional band that gets in a van oh and goes and then
Guest:The filmmakers were in bands, too, and they used songs from friends who were also in bands.
Guest:So it was kind of a celebration of a certain moment and a sad moment maybe in American indie rock.
Marc:That moment, what is that?
Marc:It was actually really at just a moment.
Guest:It was like about a year.
Guest:It was more like three seconds.
Marc:For some reason in the 90s, I missed everything.
Marc:Like LCD sound system, I didn't even know they existed.
Guest:Well, they didn't exist in the 90s.
Guest:They didn't?
Guest:What was that?
Guest:Well, James Murphy.
Guest:He's a friend of yours, right?
Guest:Yeah, he is.
Guest:And he worked with us with Dung Beetle.
Marc:He worked with Dung Beetle?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:James Murphy did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:See, that's clickbait right there.
Marc:That's going to break the music press.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're just James Murphy, Dung Beetle connection.
Guest:Well, I was just with him the other night, and we were talking about who do we listen to that music or who even talks about that music.
Marc:Which music?
Marc:Just whatever was going on.
Guest:Dung Beetle?
Guest:Dung Beetle, yeah.
Marc:Is anyone right now in this world watching that movie wondering, who's this band?
Guest:Is there one person playing the Dumbledore single?
Guest:Probably not.
Guest:On a record player.
Marc:But you know what?
Marc:I bet you Lady Madonna is playing somewhere.
Marc:absolutely or uh or even like i would go as far to say that you know with the beatles maybe somewhere right now paperback writer which was you know which is a b-side i would think he's probably playing somewhere but dung beetles what was your hit a hit what was your single uh well we had a we had a song called the man went out that was very the man went out yeah it was very popular it was uh
Guest:The line was taken from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, if you remember when- When Chief threw the- No, when Billy kills himself, I guess.
Guest:And someone says, the man went out.
Guest:And that's- That's what it's based on?
Guest:Well, that's not what the song's about, but that's where the line comes from.
Marc:You guys were thrilled when you thought of that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's got to be a song, you guys.
Guest:That's a song.
Guest:The man went out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So- So wait, so what did you and Murphy decide?
Guest:Well, he went on, of course, and became a really important rock star.
Marc:You saw him last night, and you were talking about the music.
Marc:And what was the conversation?
Guest:Well, it was just, you know, this music, these bands.
Guest:What was it?
Guest:Who listens to it now?
Guest:It doesn't get talked about, sort of.
Guest:I'm not talking about Dung Beetle.
Marc:You're talking about that moment?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What would you call that moment?
Marc:This sort of, like, art, rock, punk, Matrix?
Guest:Something like that, yeah.
Guest:A kind of...
Marc:Who are the other rock outfits we're talking about?
Marc:Dung Beetle, the Grifters?
Guest:I wouldn't even put the Grifters in there, but there was a band called Rodan, I remember.
Guest:Oh, yeah, sure.
Guest:A band we played with a lot was called Six Finger Satellite, and they were an amazing band.
Guest:We played with the Jesus Lizard at that time.
Marc:That one I heard of.
Marc:But now I'm that old guy.
Marc:I don't know Six Finger Satellite.
Guest:They were great.
Guest:And the guy from Six Finger Satellite, John McClane, went on to become, he has a group called The Juan McClane now.
Guest:But it's more like kind of dance music.
Marc:But it sounds like you're keeping up with it.
Guest:Well, I keep up with the stuff that my friends are doing now, but I don't keep up that much.
Marc:You don't listen to it, but you heard.
Guest:I listen to what they're doing.
Guest:You do.
Guest:But I'm not deep in any scene or up.
Guest:I mean, I might check in on Pitchfork like every other American, but that's about it.
Marc:I didn't even know they existed.
Marc:I'm surprised at how far out of the loop I really am.
Marc:I don't know...
Guest:brendan like knows a lot of things he seems to fill his brain with stuff and but i guess you just hit random people and they all assume like you know everyone's doing that i don't know if everyone's checking in on pitchfork i don't know if they are i mean i'm talking about 15 years ago but i mean i i tried now i just i asked my son yesterday i asked my son who uh yeah he's 14 and he only listens to rap i guess yeah who's this guy
Guest:He's really into, you know, Travis Scott or A$AP Rocky.
Marc:A$AP Rocky.
Guest:He has an A$AP Rocky poster over his bed.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And A$AP Rocky fell on him during a show, so he feels a special connection to him.
Marc:That's a life changer.
Marc:That's going to define things that you don't even understand yet.
Marc:It's shaping him deep ways.
Marc:Well, that happens, though.
Marc:You never forget that shit.
Guest:No.
No.
Marc:Like, do you have a music moment where you're like, you know, that's it right there, where you had the experience, the revelation.
Marc:I'm going to be a fucking punk rock singer.
Guest:Well, I think it was more, I don't know if I had, I used to scream into a hockey stick in front of a mirror when I was 10 or 11.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So I was imagining, before I even saw a show, I was kind of imagining what that experience might be.
Marc:Why was there a hockey stick in the house?
Guest:Because we played street hockey in the driveway, yeah.
Guest:In Jersey?
Guest:In Jersey.
Guest:What part of Jersey?
Guest:Northern New Jersey.
Yeah.
Marc:We've covered this probably in personal conversations, but what county?
Guest:Bergen County.
Marc:So not far from Morris County where my grandmother lived.
Guest:No.
Marc:What town?
Guest:It's a town called Closter.
Marc:Closter.
Guest:Which is a weird word, but it's Dutch, I think.
Guest:You think?
Guest:You should know.
Guest:I mean, I know it's Dutch.
Guest:I'm just using that generational, I think, to sort of soften the blow of certainty.
Marc:I think there's something as I get older, I'm starting to think that much of what's important came out of New Jersey.
Guest:Well, New Jersey is densely populated.
Guest:And so the chances of something interesting coming out of New Jersey are just higher because there are just more people crammed in there.
Marc:italians jews all sorts of people yeah yeah and then just the hill people the hill people indigenous people yeah there's a lot going on and there are you know they i keep hearing now about it's an old state well i keep hearing now about because of the election you know there are five floridas i'm sure you've oh yeah but there are a lot of new jerseys sure on on there's like five jerseys on like a two block radius there's several jerseys
Marc:And it's not the same anymore.
Marc:I think there was fewer jerseys when people would have to go out into the street and walk around a little bit.
Marc:But now everyone's just like bunkered in, hunkered down in their house looking at their internet.
Guest:Well, now you're talking about 15 million New Jerseys or something.
Marc:Well, that's sort of what it is.
Marc:Everybody's their own piece of property.
Guest:Everyone is their own New Jersey.
Marc:Yeah, their own New Jersey.
Marc:Everyone is their own New Jersey.
Marc:That's the new album by Dung Beetle.
Guest:Maybe Springsteen will do a guest track.
Marc:He'll do one of 1,500 guest tracks.
Marc:He'll say one word.
Marc:You'll sample just him going, hey.
Marc:And then when people pick it out, like, yeah, we sampled that from a Springsteen.
Marc:Because I think we met, because it feels like we've known each other for centuries, which we probably have.
Marc:It's just there's some people in your life that, you know, like, you know, we go back to, you know, Rome probably somewhere.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Who, you and me?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Ancient Rome?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, we were complaining.
Marc:I don't think this is going to end well for the Jews.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe we were Christians then.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:Maybe we were new Christians.
Guest:I don't know if this thing is great.
Guest:Well, new Christians were basically just Jews.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:What do we change?
Marc:Do we have to change?
Marc:Is it a different sandal?
Marc:what's the big change I just don't want to be one of the guys that's not part of the group but uh no but I met you do you know what year it was yeah I do really vaguely I think it was uh 94 95
Guest:It was a little later.
Guest:Your wife and my girlfriend were friends.
Marc:My ex-wife and your ex-girlfriend were friends.
Marc:Deborah and Kim were friends.
Marc:So that was after I moved to Astoria already?
Marc:I feel like it was here.
Marc:We were still in New York.
Marc:We were still in the city.
Guest:I think we were, but we met a few times.
Guest:I think we went out.
Guest:We may have gone on some double dates.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:And then you and I. And then those relationships ended, but we remained friends.
Guest:And then we were both in Astoria.
Marc:No, right, but I remember the big change.
Guest:See, what happened was when Debra and I broke up, I moved out to Astoria.
Guest:That's when I moved out to Astoria.
Marc:But the bigger thing was that I remember that it was probably just past mid-90s, so I didn't get sober until 99, and at that time you were sober, and I reeled you back in.
Marc:I was the Satan.
Guest:Yeah, you did.
Yeah.
Marc:I feel like I should apologize for that.
Marc:I should make an honest amends for making you smoke pot that day in the park.
Guest:You remember that.
Marc:I do.
Marc:How could you forget it?
Marc:I remember that.
Marc:I was like, come on, man.
Marc:What a fucking monster.
Marc:But fortunately, and I'm happy to say that it didn't send you back.
Guest:It didn't spin me out into some terrible life after that.
Marc:No, I think you were actually appreciative of it.
Marc:Like I somehow just eased you back into you realizing like, well, maybe I'm not as bad as I was.
Marc:And it turned out you weren't.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, what was it?
Marc:Okay, so you grew up in New Jersey.
Marc:Your dad's a sports writer and a popular, well, maybe aspiring young adult fiction writer.
Guest:Well, not aspiring, a very successful YA writer, I think.
Marc:That's what it's called, YA?
Guest:Yeah, I mean.
Marc:But what was the book that didn't get published?
Marc:What was it, Enter the Fiddler?
Guest:Oh, that was...
Guest:That was much later.
Guest:I mean, he's kind of a legend in the young adult writing world.
Marc:But isn't he also a legend in the sports writer?
Guest:But he's even more of a legend as a sports writer.
Guest:Robert Lipsight.
Guest:Yeah, Robert Lipsight, who wrote a column for the New York Times for many years, and he was very important in the—he was one of the—
Guest:uh kind of first i don't know first but one of the major sports writers who really started to kind of talk about things outside of just the game talking about right sociological the political the economic implications of of sports and he also this big his big story that he kind of covered forever was muhammad ali right and because he when ali first sort of came out and said i'm not cassius clay anymore muhammad ali and took certain political stands
Guest:A lot of the older sports writers started attacking him, but my dad would listen to him and took him seriously, and they formed a sort of, I'm not going to say a friendship, but an understanding, and my dad had access to Ali for many years.
Marc:Did he come over to the house?
Guest:No, like I said, it wasn't like that.
Marc:Did he go up to the training camp?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, I mean, he would go and cover him at different points in his life.
Marc:And he wrote a book, an important book on Ali.
Guest:Well, he wrote a book about Ali.
Guest:He wrote a book that's just actually been reissued, and I'll plug his book.
Guest:It's called Sports World, and it was first written in the 70s.
Guest:But it's sort of his magnum opus about sports and society, and it's a pretty incredible book.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the weird thing is, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I don't... Yeah, I mean, you are a little bit.
Guest:Am I?
Guest:No, I'm just kidding.
Marc:No, I'm just not a sports guy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you're not really either.
Guest:No, I mean, growing up, I probably was into it a little more than he was.
Guest:He was not really into sports.
Guest:I mean, he...
Guest:He had found himself in sports.
Guest:Yeah, but he just wanted to be a writer and a journalist and yeah, and think about things and right he He was he got a job at the New York Times when he was a kid and they put him in the sports department and I think he maybe thought he would you know move on to something else and
Guest:politics or whatever but he ended up staying there and building a career there but he's not a guy who ever sat around and watched games or kept track of anyone's batting average or he didn't he liked the story around sports and he liked the human interest and the
Guest:all the other stuff but he wasn't a nitty-gritty sports fan and i when i was a kid if i'd be you know on a sunday afternoon sitting on the couch watching a a football game yeah he'd come in and say what the fuck are you doing why are you sitting around on your ass watching a football game that's the dumbest fucking thing you could do with your time
Guest:Did he have a suggestion?
Guest:So everyone says to me, oh, it must have been amazing growing up with him because you guys, you probably had tickets to everything.
Guest:And he took you to every game and taught you everything about it.
Guest:And I said, no.
Marc:He had a tremendous amount of self-loathing around his life as a sports writer.
Marc:And he had to elevate it into an intellectual exploration just to live with himself.
Guest:Well, we all do that to some degree.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But he told you to get off your ass, but what was the suggestion?
Marc:What did he want you to do?
Guest:Well, he wasn't against sports.
Guest:He was like, go out and play a sport.
Guest:Go out and run.
Guest:Go out and do something.
Guest:Breathe some fresh air.
Guest:Get some exercise.
Guest:Read a book, whatever.
Guest:But don't sit and watch these professional guys bash each other on TV.
Marc:So this was in Jersey?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you've got a younger sister, who I know, right?
Marc:Yes, Susanna.
Marc:It's just the two of you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're growing up in Jersey.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And your mom and dad stayed together for how long?
Guest:They were together until I was a sophomore in college.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But my mom was a writer, too.
Guest:And during that time, she published a novel and did a lot of journalism.
Marc:Which novel?
Guest:It's called Hot Type.
Marc:Under what name?
Guest:Marjorie Lipsight.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And she was, what year was that?
Marc:Was it 70s?
Marc:It was in the 70s, yeah.
Marc:That time?
Marc:Late 70s.
Marc:Was it a sort of feminist novel?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it had a kind of, she was a feminist.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She wrote for a feminist newspaper, and it was, she had been a- Was that first wave?
Marc:Is that considered first wave?
Guest:I guess she was second wave.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:She was a reporter, had been a reporter at the New York Times where she met my dad.
Guest:And so she there was a novel that was kind of autobiographical about being a young woman working in the 60s at a big metropolitan newspaper.
Guest:That's that's what that book was about.
Marc:And is it available?
Guest:I mean, yeah, you can find it.
Guest:It's not in print, but it's available.
Marc:Isn't that weird about books?
Marc:Just how many they're like, I find that about records, too.
Marc:You're like, who the fuck is this guy?
Marc:And then there's one or two people like that guy's the most important guy.
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:Well, it's amazing how much you can access now.
Guest:You can really get everything.
Marc:So you're growing up with two writers, so you had no choice.
Marc:What happened?
Guest:Well, I had a choice.
Guest:I mean, my sister's not a writer.
Marc:What did she do?
Marc:She's a lawyer.
Marc:Oh, that was smarter probably.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You got to turn and run.
Guest:I mean, I tried to...
Guest:what you do is you find a way to be a writer, but not the writer that they are.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Find a new path.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You hope.
Marc:But what was the process?
Marc:Did you write in high school?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think I was kind of a,
Guest:I figured out a way to write really well when I was young and get lots of pats on the head and stars on my papers.
Marc:What were you writing early on?
Marc:Well, I mean, whatever I was writing.
Marc:Was there poetry involved?
Guest:Yeah, there was a little poetry.
Yeah.
Marc:No, you have to.
Marc:I think that the poetry is an exercise, especially when you read your prose.
Marc:It's important to understand it, or at least... I think it's important as a writer to have an experience with poetry where you're like, I see why this gets through.
Guest:Well, I think that... I mean, I had a teacher who said, if you want to write fiction, you should read poetry.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You want your sound to be as close, even as a prose writer, you want it to have poetic elements.
Guest:You want it to have a...
Guest:music to it.
Guest:I've always been going for that.
Guest:I think that there was a period just in high school where I kind of learned how to write short stories.
Guest:I read a lot of New Yorker short stories.
Guest:I guess my point is I was writing a lot of stories about experiences I didn't know anything about.
Guest:I was sort of mimicking a lot of what I read.
Marc:Who were you mimicking mostly in high school?
Guest:I mean, probably 80s minimalists at the time, you know, Raymond Carver.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And people like that.
Marc:But could you drop some more names?
Marc:I want some more names because I don't know them.
Guest:At the time, like people that.
Guest:I mean, Raymond Carver, Bobby M. Mason, Frederick Bartholme.
Guest:And then later I discovered other writers who were more like what got called postmodernists, like Robert Coover and John Hawks and Thomas Pynchon and people like that.
Guest:But anyway, I guess my point is I kind of learned how to write a certain kind of story and win prizes for it and stuff like that.
Guest:But I kind of got disgusted with myself at a certain point because I felt like I was...
Guest:It wasn't really coming from me.
Marc:Felt like a fraud?
Guest:I felt a little bit like a fraud.
Marc:In high school?
Guest:Well, in college.
Guest:So I kind of turned away from the writing for a while.
Guest:And that's when I got into the music stuff.
Marc:The real stuff.
Marc:The visceral.
Guest:Well, it was also a way for me to scream but not be heard.
Guest:I didn't want my words to really be heard.
Yeah.
Guest:So you really turned on writing.
Guest:I really turned on writing.
Guest:And then after that, that was when I kind of rediscovered writing for myself.
Guest:I was no longer the son of these writers.
Guest:I mean, I still was, but I'm just talking about that moment where you realize why you're doing something.
Guest:You're not doing it for other people.
Guest:In the end, and this was a big lesson to me, was realizing nobody gives a shit.
Guest:The people who love you, they want you to be happy, whatever that means.
Guest:And they want you to have health insurance.
Guest:And they want you to...
Guest:But they don't care whether like you write that short story that you've been thinking about or not.
Guest:Right.
Guest:All the pressure that's coming from the outside.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Most of it's imagined.
Guest:They're not.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're projecting all of it.
Guest:You're projecting all of it.
Guest:So it was that realization that nobody cares.
Guest:And that's a very liberating thought.
Guest:And then it's well, then you have to ask yourself, do I care?
Guest:And if the answer is yes, then you really go.
Marc:So it seems like this is something that I like that.
Marc:Those three steps, you know, do they care?
Marc:Am I making up what I think they're thinking?
Marc:And then that's step one.
Marc:Yes, I am.
Marc:Step two is does anyone care?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do I care if anyone cares?
Marc:That's step two.
Marc:Step three is do I care?
Marc:Now, this this to me is a daily thing.
Guest:Yeah, I mean... Some people call it prayer.
Marc:I understand that it was... Some people call it philosophy.
Marc:Yeah, looking back at it, this is a moment where you remember, but I remember that from earlier today.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:That was 8.30 this morning.
Guest:Yeah, but... Yeah, I'm not saying it's a one-time...
Marc:No, it's an experience.
Guest:But around writing, I really... I mean, maybe it was daily for a while until I really got a sense of who I was and all of this.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But so in high school, you knew that this was your thing and you had a knack for it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You worked at it and you aspired to it.
Guest:And I succeeded on a high school level at it.
Marc:But there's nice Oedipal competition to it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's very... The other thing is...
Marc:realizing like you can kill your dad but it's really exhausting yeah yeah yeah but like you can't really kill him no so when you when you do it that way when you do it through dads are zombies it's true they yeah they keep coming back well that is true both of our dads are still alive and that's a nice thing i it took me a while to realize that but it's a good thing but the weird thing is you can win a certain battle
Marc:Like, you can't kill—like, you know, they can't eventually acknowledge, like, all right, so you did what you set out to do, and maybe you've eclipsed me a little bit.
Marc:You know, but that doesn't really kill them, because once you get past that, you're still looking at them, and you know in their mind they're like, I'm still here, fucker.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:I'm not dead yet.
Marc:How are you doing?
Guest:I already went through what you're going through, all the other stuff.
Guest:Raging Bull was on TV the other night.
Guest:It was that moment where he was like, you never put me down, Ray.
Marc:You never put me down.
Marc:You never knocked me down, Ray.
Marc:Just insanity.
Marc:And Ray's just looking at him like, all right, you fucking weirdo.
Guest:That's the relationship with him.
Marc:That's fathers and sons.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:So early on, you weren't like me.
Marc:At some point, I was like, I'm not going to college.
Marc:But I just was kind of locked into some sort of townie dream for a minute there until I panicked.
Marc:But growing up with not academics, but people who put a premium on.
Guest:you know intellectual activity did you were you whatever one of those people were you like i'm not gonna i'm done you always knew you were gonna go i kind of wanted to go to college because i thought it would be a way to get out right i want i mean it was a nice town i grew up in but i was ready to go go somewhere else yeah and meet some other people and i kind of i had this fantasy that turned out to be just that that
Guest:When I went to college, everyone would be interested in the things I was interested in and care about what I cared about.
Guest:And there were a few people, but then there were a whole bunch of other assholes, too, just like anywhere else.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:And you went to Brown?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:See, I didn't have a lot of choices when I decided to go to college.
Marc:And Brown's an Ivy Leaguer, right?
Guest:Yeah, I think it's known as a minor ivy.
Marc:Minor ivy.
Marc:But it's also known as this sort of like heavily liberal arts kind of a celebrity children thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, especially when I was there, it was the 80s, and it was getting covered in the media as the hot school.
Guest:People hadn't really paid attention to Brown before, but suddenly—
Guest:Yeah, there were like celebrity children.
Guest:The royalty was there.
Guest:There was, you know, so it was a place in the phone and like the student phone book.
Guest:It said, you know, somebody's name and then just come and then Princess of Greece.
Marc:Oh, but this is but this was but it was for it.
Guest:I mean, sometimes you ran into those people and sometimes you did.
Marc:But see, the thing is, that's always been the case with Ivy League schools.
Marc:Like Yale and Harvard have always been sort of like the educational facility for aristocracies and tyrants and dictators, families.
Marc:It was a place to get everybody the good education.
Marc:But it seemed like Brown was sort of like, we got this one bad kid.
Marc:This princess is problematic.
Guest:It was for like ruling class fuck-ups.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was some of that.
Guest:And then there was a kind of intellectual kind of, you know, clove cigarette smoking kind of thing going on there, maybe more than at some of those other schools.
Guest:It was very big into there was a semiotics department.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Theory.
Guest:And so you went in there immediately without, you know, really any context.
Guest:You were reading all of these French deconstructionists and getting into it.
Guest:So if you were if that was your kind of major, if you were kind of an English major kind of person.
Marc:Oh, so they because of the nature of the school and that it was more.
Marc:Yeah, it seems like the the regimen was different than some of the bigger Ivy League schools.
Guest:Well, you weren't necessarily like I feel like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, you're really being trained to to run the world.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:And Brown, it was like you were there to be the black sheep.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Relation of the person who ran the world.
Marc:I never became a disciplined intellectual of any kind.
Marc:I understand the words you're saying, and I think I have an idea in my mind of what they mean, but I got no training.
Marc:So when you say postmodern and deconstruction, you could probably explain it.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's not that interesting.
Marc:But for years, I was sort of like, why don't I know about that?
Marc:I was the guy that, you know, I didn't fuck off in college.
Marc:You know, I did well.
Marc:I graduated with honors to a certain degree and I cobbled together an English degree.
Marc:But like when it came right down to it, I was on the Lower East Side.
Marc:in the late 80s and early 90s with all the semi-textbooks.
Marc:Well, that's the same stuff.
Marc:Trying to put it together.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But without any sort of guidelines.
Marc:Like I'm reading this book now by this guy, David Shields.
Marc:I know David, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, there's an element to it there that he clearly comes from that.
Marc:And I'm having the exact same experience.
Marc:I enjoy reading the lines and I think I have an idea of what he's saying.
Marc:But obviously there's a whole context, not unlike the language of philosophy, where he knows exactly what he's saying.
Marc:And I'm just sort of like, I kind of get it.
Guest:Well, I mean, I felt that way coming into college.
Guest:I was given these texts and I didn't really have a way to relate to them.
Guest:And so, I mean, it was some of it was mind blowing and some of it was really alienating.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I didn't you know, I wasn't you know, I wasn't coming from the ruling class.
Guest:So I couldn't, you know, fuck off, fuck off.
Guest:But I took tried to take it seriously.
Guest:But I was trying to.
Guest:Grasp it all and some of it, you know, I think there's it I absorb some and some of it Definitely helped shape my worldview, but it was kind of a general I mean it was not that different from you know any kind of vaguely Marxist progressive worldview you might get right anyway, right and And there was there were definitely levels that I didn't I didn't get to
Marc:Well, yeah, because if you do get to those levels, then it becomes your job to sort of continue pursuing the depth and range of those levels.
Marc:I imagine if you get to a certain level of understanding of that kind of stuff, you're required to commit your life to it.
Guest:Well, it becomes a kind of priesthood or something.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That as time goes on, no one gives a fuck about it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's losing traction even.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Which is the church of the deconstruction.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, this stuff's been around for 30, 40 years.
Guest:It's not, you know, people rage about it now.
Guest:People rage against the postmodernists now.
Guest:It's not like the postmodernists are running anything.
Guest:So I don't understand all of the...
Marc:I'd like to meet some of the people that are raging.
Guest:It's sort of like... Well, I'm thinking of even if you look at people who are getting a lot of attention now, like a guy like Jordan Peterson, if you're aware of that guy.
Guest:And he will rage against the postmodernists and...
Guest:And I think his feeling is, you know, it has filtered down into the identity politics and all of that.
Marc:It probably has.
Guest:It probably has.
Guest:But, I mean, you know, I feel like that's just kind of a straw man in a certain way.
Marc:It's a straw man, and it's also like a bit of pseudo-intellectual hodgepodge that has been made accessible to the people who are –
Marc:pretty fucking stupid in terms of education, but now have become enabled through language and through funneling it through their own anger to kind of like make half-baked arguments with the proper language.
Marc:And then it becomes really problematic.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, people are just throwing terminology around to rile up their audience.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then you have a certain group of people that are able to say that actual facts are a good theory.
Yeah.
Marc:It then becomes problematic.
Marc:But I don't think we should get lost into that shit.
Marc:But I do want to talk about the relevance of writing, because you and I are not... You're a little younger than me, but obviously our heroes are in the same sort of...
Marc:time zone um but like when you when did you start was it when you got to brown that you started really to sort of dig into the guys that informed your writing the most well i think i when i was in college i definitely encountered a few writers that would have a lasting impact on me uh
Guest:writers like barry hannah yeah stanley elkin yeah uh grace paley thomas mcgwain uh and then i became uh very much a fan of a i discovered a journal that was coming out called the quarterly that was being edited by a guy named gordon lish who was a famous new york city editor yeah uh he had edited fame you know raymond carver that was very controversially but uh
Guest:So I started sending stories to this magazine I just wanted to get in, and I'd get these really nice rejection letters, and I just kept sending and sending.
Marc:From Gordon himself?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, you write little notes, you know, just keep trying or keep going.
Guest:And so that...
Guest:uh encouraged me to to keep going and and uh so even while i was even while i was doing the band stuff i was still harboring a little desire to to get involved with this and then eventually i after kind of things my life kind of fell apart and i was rebuilding wait so we can't just like that that's not the thing you just kind of skirt over i was going to backtrack to it but oh yeah okay so after your life fell apart
Guest:Well, a bunch of things happened.
Guest:The band fell apart.
Guest:We got involved with drugs.
Marc:We didn't get to the beginning of the band.
Marc:So the band starts at Brown?
Guest:A little bit after, yeah.
Marc:So you're at Brown.
Guest:We're living in Providence, and we're doing this band.
Marc:And you're sitting around smoking cigarettes, being angry, sweating over mirrors and lines of cocaine.
Guest:No, not really.
Guest:There was no Coke, really.
Guest:It was just beer and cigarettes.
Guest:And playing at local clubs and hanging out.
Marc:But who was the guitar player?
Guest:A guy named Rob Reynolds, who's now a painter in L.A.
Guest:and a really good friend of mine.
Marc:Is he a good painter?
Marc:He's a very good painter.
Marc:Big painter?
Guest:He paints big and small.
Marc:Abstracts?
Guest:He does all sorts of things.
Guest:He does some abstract things and some figurative things, too.
Marc:I wonder if he knows my girlfriend.
Guest:He might.
Marc:So he's a painter.
Marc:And so who was on drums?
Guest:A guy on drums, his name was Bruce Cooley, but we called him Bruce Oyster Cooley.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Just Oyster sometimes?
Guest:Just Oyster.
Guest:He had been actually our TA in a class, but we kind of dragged him into this.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:He was a little bit older.
Guest:And then on bass, we had a guy named Nicholas Butterworth.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Although he went by Big Jimmy Fingers at the time.
Marc:We all had rock names.
Marc:What was your rock name?
Guest:Sam Shit.
Marc:Sam Shit?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Guest:Or Sam Beetle, because it was Dung Beetle, but I sort of did both.
Marc:So the birth of Dung Beetle, they were all RISD guys?
Marc:Or no, they were all brown guys?
Guest:Yeah, they were all originally brown guys.
Marc:And what was the manifesto?
Guest:Well, the manifesto was just to be kind of weird and crazy and never wink at the audience.
Guest:Never let them know that it was a joke.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:That just seemed very important to us.
Guest:And just kind of to be as alienating as possible while still being entertaining.
Guest:We wanted you to have a good time, but to feel disturbed on some level.
Marc:And did you have a following?
Guest:Well, those 12 people we talked about.
Marc:I know, but it was really just 12?
Marc:Yeah, people would show up.
Marc:You were part of a scene.
Guest:We were part of a scene.
Guest:Like I said, there was a band, Six Fingers Satellite and some other bands.
Guest:We were in Providence, and then we moved the band down to New York after about a year.
Marc:But you were still at Brown.
Guest:No, no, we were done.
Guest:We had graduated.
Guest:Oh, I see.
Guest:So after Brown was over, we spent a year in Providence playing around in clubs there.
Marc:So you did your degree.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you wrote your stuff.
Marc:You got through Brown with a degree in what?
Guest:English.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:English major.
Marc:And you'd publish some stuff during college.
Guest:Just, no, not really.
Guest:College magazines, maybe, but nothing.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And afterwards, you're like, we're a band.
Marc:We're going to New York.
Guest:Well, first we spent a year in Providence.
Guest:Okay, yeah, right.
Guest:And then we went down to New York.
Guest:It was serious.
Guest:Yeah, we were serious.
Guest:I mean, I don't know what, we didn't know, it's not like we were serious, like we thought we were going to end up on TV with this, but we were serious about wanting to keep playing and keep playing in clubs.
Marc:And keep pushing the envelope with the fuck you-ness.
Guest:Well, finding interesting ways to say fuck you, because it's easy to say fuck you in a boring way.
Marc:So who are the musical influences?
Marc:If we were to listen to Dung Beetle, we'd be like, oh, you know, this sounds a lot like the Osmonds.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:You must have seen yourself on some sort of continuum.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it was punk rock.
Guest:It was, but it was, I mean, also we were all coming from different places, but, you know, we liked bands like the Laughing Hyenas, like the Gun Club, if you remember that.
Guest:Oh, the Gun Club.
Guest:I love the Gun Club.
Guest:So, the Jesus Lizard.
Marc:The Gun Club was so good.
Guest:Yeah, the Stooges we loved.
Marc:Oh, yeah, sure, yeah.
Guest:So, it's that kind of, if you can find that then.
Marc:So, when did the wheels start coming off?
Guest:After about a... I mean, it was... I think that a couple of us started to be interested in other things.
Guest:You know, started to think about... The guitarist was thinking more about painting at a certain point.
Guest:The bassist was thinking about politics.
Guest:And we just started... We started to lose a little bit of steam.
Guest:And we started to lose that...
Guest:that team feeling that i think we had and drugs were getting involved and drugs were getting involved people you got all fucked up i got pretty fucked up and for how long not that long but long enough for it to to you know screw up my life to get scared yeah were you uh were you like i don't know how much you really want to talk about i'll be diplomatic about it but uh were you uh strung out
Guest:I mean, there were not for long periods, but for good enough periods, I was, you know, yeah, thinking about what am I going to do today to get the money to not feel shitty.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Let's put it that way.
Marc:And that became the job at times.
Guest:And that became, you know, a full-time job.
Marc:And what did you do for the money to get the money?
Guest:stuff to not feel shitty sell stuff sell my belongings oh yeah you know so he's getting sparse things got good i mean and we knew things were going bad when the drummer started selling his drum kit one piece at a time so claiming that it was you know because he was into a more minimalist sound but a more minimalist sound of just what's going on in his head in the corner of the empty room
Marc:It got down to just the snare.
Marc:This has got sort of a military feel.
Marc:I don't know if that's what we're looking for.
Marc:But it got to a point where you're like, I've got to clean up.
Marc:And you did it.
Marc:And that's when you started to rethink the writing.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I kind of was doing all sorts of things to make money, including substitute teaching at high schools.
Guest:And this is also a point where my mother, she had been in remission from breast cancer for about 13 years, but came back and it got pretty bad.
Guest:I was sort of at the rebuilding my life and she was in this bad place so I moved in with her.
Guest:In Jersey?
Guest:No, this is now my parents are divorced and they both lived in the city.
Guest:And so I kind of took care of her and was trying to take care of myself at the same time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was kind of an amazing time.
Guest:I'm glad it worked out that way that I was able to be there.
Marc:Well, it was good that you were sober and not taking her medication.
Guest:That was good.
Marc:Could have gone the other way.
Guest:It could have gone the other way, but the timing was right.
Guest:I was a help rather than a hindrance.
Marc:So really you nursed her?
Marc:And we helped each other.
Marc:How so?
Marc:Just by talking?
Guest:Emotionally, yeah.
Guest:Being there for each other.
Guest:But she got sicker and sicker and then she died.
Marc:And you were there the whole time?
Marc:You were the primary caretaker in a way?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:I can't.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what what affected that?
Marc:I mean, it must have been like, I assume because I can only speculate, but like to sort of process that and go through it, it must have brought you closer and given you a deeper understanding of something.
Guest:Well, I mean, it gave me a deeper understanding of her, which I was really grateful for because, you know, she'd been my mom and, you know, whatever, a lot of other, you know, and I'd known her in so many ways, but now I kind of got to know her in a new way and kind of understand her as a person a lot more.
Guest:You know, I'm sorry that it took this for that to happen.
Marc:But you had, sadly, but also in some bittersweet way, you had the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we did have there was time.
Guest:You know, it was a period of a couple of years.
Marc:So and you probably because of like what you just the identification probably was so strong with your dad.
Marc:After a certain point, you detach from your parents and you realize like you have no idea who they are.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you were able to sort of know her.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:In a way, I'm getting to know my dad now in a way that I wasn't able to before when I was filled up with all sorts of feelings and resentments.
Marc:Yeah, resentments and independence.
Guest:Yeah, sort of necessary defiance or distancing.
Guest:Pushing back.
Guest:Pushing back, yeah.
Guest:But that was a very key element.
Guest:I think moment in my life was that time with her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then, and then after that, and, but, you know, I really didn't start to really write seriously and write the things that I would eventually publish until after that died.
Guest:And then I was kind of,
Marc:then in a strange way that was the final like well nobody really the only person who really truly gave a shit is dead now so now now it's on you now it's on do i give a shit yeah yeah who am i doing it for yeah but it must have like i i imagine that that experience kind of helped humanize and define the darkness a bit
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, because there is sort of like there's that one short story where the junkie dude shoots up his mother's ashes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That like, you know, I imagine it would be hard to think of that comedic device if you could call it that or make it.
Marc:Sort of poignant and funny without having the experience that you had both with your own life and with your mother passing right and I mean that was that was a Important story for me to write at that time.
Guest:What was it called?
Guest:Cremains and But I think that I you know my experience had been I'd been kind of at that point anyway sort of a Good son.
Guest:Yeah, but I didn't want to write that that's not interesting I
Guest:So I was done.
Guest:I was more interested in writing about, you know, what it's kind of a story.
Guest:It was almost like an alternate history of what if I had, you know, stayed on a bad course.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And had the same things experienced with my mother.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So that was that was kind of the imaginative.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Leap.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's a good one.
Guest:And and I didn't know that I wrote.
Guest:I was writing the story.
Guest:I told this.
Guest:Before, but I was writing it and I didn't know where it was going.
Guest:And then as soon as he shot up his mother's ashes, I was like, I guess it's over.
Guest:I guess where you go from.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I guess the story's done it.
Marc:It sort of circles back around to what I keep circling back around to without saying is that.
Marc:You know, when I talked about our own heroes and about who they are, when you talk about people like Stanley Elkin or Barry Hanna or Dennis... What's his last name?
Guest:Well, I mentioned Thomas McGuane, but... McGuane.
Guest:Were you going to say Dennis Johnson?
Marc:Yeah, Dennis Johnson.
Guest:That book was certainly a...
Guest:An amazing thing to read.
Marc:But these guys, and I brought up, what did I bring up with you?
Marc:Oh, the Brodigan book I dug up.
Marc:But these guys were this pantheon of these 70s writers.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who, to a certain group of people, were incredibly important and culturally relevant.
Marc:You said you went to Philip Roth's memorial, right?
Marc:I did go to that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I just wonder...
Marc:how they defined culture when they were alive because it seemed like there was a good part of culture that was sort of intellectually bent.
Guest:Well, I guess you mentioned the 70s and you think about books and movies and all of it together.
Guest:There's a kind of cultural feeling that I guess...
Guest:we both feel steeped in and feel formed by.
Guest:And definitely, you know.
Guest:We grew up in it.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I grew up in the 80s, but it was really the 70s I was paying, you know, what had been done in the 70s that was what I was marinating in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then when you, like, I guess, like, in terms of, like, your own books, that there's this idea, like, I know who the writers, some of the writers are, that you are in the world that you're in, your generation.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And even the ones that are really big, it's still sort of it seems like an insulated community.
Marc:Like when you say someone's a priest of deconstructionism, right, that there's still this world of literature that I feel like gets more and more specific and insulated.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:That it doesn't have the cultural resonance that it once had.
Guest:That's really true, and I always say, you know, I think there was a time when, you know, there was a particular book or a particular movie or a particular record that, you know, when you went to the party, you just had to at least pretend to have experienced, and I think that that's still true except the book is off the table.
Guest:You don't have to pretend to have read a book at this point.
Marc:Well, no, it seems, right, that's true.
Marc:Or a novel, anyway.
Marc:No, I think that's true, but also I think what's happened is instead of,
Marc:having a common conversation about this thing that's supposedly important.
Marc:It seems like the real conversational premium is knowing something about something that no one knows about.
Marc:Sort of like, oh, you didn't see that?
Marc:It's like, I didn't even know it existed.
Marc:No, of course you didn't.
Marc:But maybe in the world you run in that's still with movies or whatever, but it seems more that people, there's no common thread.
Marc:That, you know, there's so much shit out there.
Guest:We're all in our niches.
Guest:That's all right.
Marc:Then the niche can be very small.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so there's no common thread.
Guest:There's no there's no main narrative.
Guest:We're all commenting on.
Guest:I mean, besides the political one.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right now.
Guest:But that's just that's what we're all looking recent.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You're into these books.
Guest:You're into these movies and these books over here.
Guest:And they don't necessarily touch each other.
Marc:Well, I think that's what's great about the new book, Hark, about the new novel, is because having watched you go through the other novels, the Subject Steve, the first one, well, first is Venus Drive, right?
Guest:The stories.
Marc:And those are stories, and they're great, and they're dark, and they're solid.
Marc:But then Subject Steve is not as accessible as Homeland, right?
Marc:It's a little fragmented.
Marc:Not in a bad way, but you were doing something.
Marc:What was I doing?
Marc:What was I doing?
Marc:Well, no, I mean, I think like, see, like when I read Elkin or I read some of these other guys, like Elkin is not really an easy read.
Guest:I mean, one writer I didn't mention that I think the subject Steve was probably indebted to is DeLillo.
Marc:DeLillo is the greatest.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:He's another Lish guy.
Guest:Well, they were friends.
Guest:I mean, I wouldn't say Lish really shaped DeLillo, but, you know.
Guest:But like a book like White Noise or something, you know.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Right.
Marc:White Noise.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:That was the first DeLillo I read, and then I read all of them at a certain point.
Marc:But that was the one that really was his big, finally, that was what, his fifth novel, probably?
Marc:Something like that, yeah.
Marc:Because the other ones, it's just, right.
Marc:So fragment's not the right word.
Marc:I don't know how to talk about novels that much, but it wasn't insanely accessible.
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, it was trying to do certain things, as you said.
Guest:It was structured in a weird way.
Guest:It was these kinds of diary entries or these itemizations, they were called.
Guest:And so I was trying to get to a lot of...
Guest:It was doing a more kind of cultural analysis than some of the other books, maybe.
Marc:But I think now you've come back to it, but your voice is so well-defined and also, I think, more broad.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think, yes, I see what you're saying.
Guest:I think you're, I agree with you.
Guest:I think there's a bit of the subject, Steve, in Hark, but with more of the character stuff and more of the human stuff.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And more funny.
Guest:And funnier.
Marc:Yeah, because like all the comedies, the characters are very well defined and the humor, because the characters are not only believable, but familiar and sort of well defined, yet the humor has a lot more punch to it.
Guest:Well, thank you.
Guest:do you do you know what i'm talking about yeah i mean i'm going for that that's that's the effect i'm after so in your personal arc like because i've just watched because like homeland was funny but like um homeland was really driven by this ridiculous voice yeah and so yeah it was very funny right because the guy had a chip on his shoulder he had a chip on his shoulder and it was about like reading through his bombast yeah through his his mania
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then the ask, we get into this other world where you're sort of like, you know, you've got the guy that's trying to, you know, make it, you know, just survive life.
Marc:And he's in this weird world of servicing rich people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's just kind of like this walk of shame through the whole book.
Guest:This kind of series of humiliations that reflect, I think, what a lot of people feel in their working life and their...
Marc:And I think in that book, The Ask, which I love, but I just see the natural evolution of sort of like dealing with the ideas that you like to deal with, but like somehow or another, the characters become, like in this book, as I told you before, like I don't, I'm not going to mistake you for the main guy.
Marc:In The Ask, I'm like, that's Sam.
Marc:And then there was actually a part where like, that's actually a conversation I had with Sam.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Marc:I never tell anybody.
Marc:I'm not particularly proud of where I was at at that time, but that beat that you used in the book was hilarious.
Marc:That's not a problem I'm having.
Marc:I don't even want to tell people which one it is.
Marc:They can figure it out.
Marc:But this book, the guy, what's the protagonist's name?
Marc:Not Mark, the other guy.
Marc:Fraz.
Marc:Fraz.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, I mean, I can see.
Guest:There are aspects of me in there.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Guest:But it's a lot of different people.
Guest:And I don't mean that in that usual fiction writer evasive way of don't pin me down.
Guest:It really, I am drawing from a lot of different.
Marc:Sure, the experience of being married and having two children.
Guest:But that's, yeah, I mean, there's emotional autobiography there, right?
Marc:Right.
Guest:A lot of those feelings are feelings I've had.
Guest:The situation's not so much.
Marc:But I just feel in this book, I guess not unlike, you know, white noise in a way that you were able to sort of get it all in, you know, get, you know, politics, culture, you know, spirituality, the exploitation of spirituality, commercialism, you know, all these, you know, tech, you know, like that the entire, you know, sort of chaotic, but defining cultural landscape that we're living in, which seems really hard to wrap your brain around.
Marc:You were sort of able to harness it.
Marc:through this he's not even a charlatan he's he's almost a a haphazard uh spiritual leader yeah i mean right yeah and then there's a kind of revelation at the end about who he really is but yeah yeah it was very satisfying that and to me that's the trickiest thing and i think i don't know not as somebody who
Marc:talks literature much or or claims to to even you know study it but it seems that when you're dealing with a novel that has you know definable characters that's not abstract that that third act is the trickiest one how are you gonna end that how do you land it yeah but like you landed it great yeah
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:I mean, that was a leap, as they say.
Guest:You know, that was, should I do this?
Guest:That was a moment where I thought, if this is wrong, I'm really fucked.
Marc:No, but it was satisfying because, like I said, like from before in talking about poetry, that if you have laid the groundwork, I think, again, not an academic, but...
Marc:You have a certain amount of freedom with poetry to the point where, you know, a lot of times you can't determine whether it's terrible or it isn't.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you'd laid all this groundwork.
Marc:So to take the leap that you took, you know, just poetically is sound.
Marc:You know, whether or not the there's the logic is going to hold or if it's believable, doesn't really matter, does it?
Guest:No, I think that it's – I mean, what you're talking about is just a general storytelling idea, which is do you earn it or not?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, but you earned it, and you're sort of like, I guess he's going to do it that way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's fine.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:Good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, yeah, I mean, I think you're right.
Guest:I was trying to – it took me a long time to write this book.
Guest:I started it in 2012.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And so it wasn't something I – I mean, it was something that was – I kept –
Guest:layering things into it and and it changed a bit as I went and my conception of even what it could be altered a lot and I like that it took a while and I like that those layers are there creates more texture and creates more space for all of those themes you mentioned and also creates or allowed me to work on those characters and make them as dimensional as possible
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think they're the comedic device of it.
Marc:A lot of them that kind of move throughout the book, the changing names of local restaurants.
Marc:You know, it does sort of it kind of guts the reality we live in a little bit.
Marc:And that we're all such suckers for such bullshit, you know, so daily and almost seems to change every day.
Marc:But, you know, the sort of what really the continuum that the thing that stays is like, you know, phrases problems, you know, and his particular character, you know, his emotional problems and his, you know, his sense of insecurity that no matter what is shifting around you or how complicated the world gets is that at the end of the day, you're still that guy.
Guest:You're still you.
Yeah.
Marc:But like what elements like, you know, Gordon Lish is this sort of kind of infamous character who ran these writer workshops.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, they were, yes.
Marc:Is that the wrong word?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I was thinking about workshop because we didn't really, he didn't go over your writing that much in these classes.
Guest:He more lectured and spoke about writing and then sort of, it would go for about six hours each session.
Guest:And then at the end, he'd ask people to read from whatever they were working on.
Guest:And it was a very nerve wracking experience.
Guest:Is he still alive?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he would listen to what you were writing, but really point out
Guest:immediately where you were going wrong.
Marc:He was harsh.
Marc:And didn't he wear military garb too or something?
Guest:It was safari garb maybe.
Marc:He was a character, a New York character that had written a lot of books.
Guest:Well, he wrote a lot of books.
Guest:He edited almost all the writers I cared about at some point or another.
Guest:And when he was editor at Esquire and Knopf, he published most of the writers I care about.
Guest:So he was someone that I look to as this is a guy who has who had already helped shape what I thought was some of the most exciting writing in the last, you know, whatever, 40 years of American fiction.
Guest:So he and he was an incredible and he still teaches a little bit, I think, but.
Guest:Maybe he hasn't in a while, but he was an incredible teacher.
Guest:He he really gave of himself.
Guest:He gave everything he had.
Guest:He had the most best ear I've ever encountered.
Guest:He could hear everything you were doing.
Guest:And he he taught you how to really I always say he taught us how to listen to ourselves, which was the most important thing.
Guest:Because I think that before then, one is writing and one sort of doesn't even, one writes and writes, but isn't even paying attention to what you're doing.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You're just trying to get to the next thing and you're not staying in the moment.
Marc:Or else you're sort of elaborating to a degree where you're entertaining yourself, but not necessarily honoring yourself.
Guest:what you want to say and what you've put into motion it's very the idea is you begin with these elements and you have to follow them and you can't if you're going to veer away from them you have to account for that right and the thing the thing that i have found which is what i like about what i do is i get to when i begin write a first draft that's an improvisation right and that's like that's that's a performance
Marc:You're talking about a 200, 300 page performance?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But then you get to fix it.
Guest:You get to keep working on it and keep fixing it and revising it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so you get the best of both.
Marc:So with something like with Hark, where did that start?
Marc:What was the driving idea?
Guest:I think I began with this idea, this kind of silly idea of mental archery.
Guest:This, you know, just this image of people doing these.
Marc:So this is your sort of satirical riff on yoga.
Marc:All that stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, my wife is really into yoga and we talk about this kind of stuff all the time.
Guest:And, you know, I've tried to do it and.
Guest:Maybe I was thinking of a yoga I could do, which mental archery seems like.
Marc:Well, the thing that's so funny about it is that you sort of flesh it out enough historically with bullshit and actual facts that you created a history for this idea.
Marc:That becomes a spiritual idea.
Guest:That was a lot of fun, that part of it, sort of naming the poses and doing the historical background on all of them.
Marc:And also it's vague enough to be open to almost any interpretation, which is the secret to a lot of these things.
Marc:And how this guy becomes put in the position of being a spiritual guru.
Guest:Well, the idea of Hark himself is he's someone everyone can project upon.
Guest:And so different characters have a different idea of what mental archery is and what it means and what it can mean for them and for society.
Guest:So some people see it as a more private practice, a more spiritual practice.
Guest:Other people see it as an agent for political change.
Guest:Other people see it as a way to bring communities together.
Guest:And everyone's projecting onto Hark.
Guest:Some people see him as this kind of old-style shaman.
Guest:Some people see him as this new leader.
Marc:And then there's the forces of capitalism and technology that want to exploit it.
Guest:Or swooping in to commodify it.
Guest:But he's one of those guys who can be everything to everybody.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Except like, who is he?
Guest:Who is he?
Guest:And he's just like, I don't know.
Marc:It just reminded me.
Guest:Well, he says, I just want to help people focus.
Guest:That's what he keeps saying in the book.
Guest:And everyone's heaping all of this other stuff on top.
Marc:Everything will be good in the garden.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a little like, yeah, being there.
Guest:He's a little bit of a Chance the Gardener type.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I just thought of that when we were talking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But so it started out with mental archery.
Marc:That was the idea.
Marc:That came to you in a flash of some kind.
Guest:Yeah, mental archery and then somebody kind of teaching it, going somewhere upstate to do a seminar.
Marc:And that was the basis of it.
Guest:Well, that's what triggered it all.
Guest:And then I was writing that...
Guest:There was a whole scene that didn't make it into the book.
Guest:That was maybe the first thing I wrote.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then I realized that this guy, Hark, needed some kind of sidekick.
Guest:And then that's where the Frazz character came in.
Guest:And then I had this other storyline.
Marc:The initial hanger-on.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:The guy who saw something in it for himself.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But spiritually, it defined his life.
Guest:He's feeling this lack.
Marc:Yeah, a lack.
Guest:And he needs to plug into something.
Marc:And here it is.
Marc:The lack.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And and then I also there's another subplot about someone who transports organs.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I met this guy who is a German actor who does this.
Guest:You know, he he does acting jobs all around the world, but then he's also transporting organs all over the place.
Guest:It's kind of his side side gig.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I became interested in sort of that.
Marc:uh right there's a little subplot there and so there's a woman who's one of the main characters is also transporting organs at different points it's so funny that that out of the entire book i would have thought that would have been the one contrivance but that's actually rooted in a guy you met
Marc:I'm like, where the fuck did this come from?
Marc:And you're like, a German guy.
Marc:And then you just sort of move through the rest of it.
Marc:I mean, because I remember talking to you once before about where you start and you kind of start in the middle and build out.
Guest:Well, there was a little... I mean, because of that scene, you know, wasn't necessarily the beginning of a story.
Guest:It was showing them already established in their routines.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So then I'm like, who are these people?
Guest:What are their lives like?
Guest:Where did they come from?
Guest:That's the building out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You still have to figure out what's going to happen.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that takes a long time.
Guest:And so I always say I kind of am writing sideways because I'm moving forward, but then I'm always going back and...
Guest:playing with what I've done and then moving forward again and going back and moving forward.
Guest:So it's kind of this sideways crab-like movement.
Guest:It's not a straight shot.
Marc:Sure, of course, right.
Marc:But what's also interesting is because of the time that this evolved over whatever, what is it, five years, six years?
Guest:Yeah, I guess six years.
Marc:It's that you were able to integrate a lot of the cultural...
Marc:dialogue that's going on around you know gender and around uh you know uh feminism and around uh you know um paradigm shifting yeah you know active uh you know patriotic takedown that there there it's not like a full subtext but you you address it like because i think there's a lot in this book that is is very immediate and relevant cultural commentary in a very you know cutting but funny way you know
Guest:Yeah, and I think it's stuff that was bubbling for a while and in the air.
Marc:You didn't wedge it in there.
Guest:I didn't wedge it in there because these characters were kind of naturally talking about this stuff.
Guest:But then I started to see, oh, this thing's heating up and that aspect's heating up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, there was very few things that you didn't really touch upon, I think.
Marc:I think you got it all in.
Marc:I think you did it.
Marc:So I'm done.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:No, now you go back to much simpler things.
Marc:Now you just sort of... Now it just becomes about you on a beach for a while.
Marc:Now you got to like... Because I think...
Marc:I don't know what you have to do.
Marc:This book is just coming out.
Marc:What do we got to talk about the next one for?
Guest:Oh, there is no next one.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's it?
Guest:No, I'm just saying.
Guest:No, I mean, I hope there's a next one.
Guest:But yeah, I feel empty right now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You got to spend a little time filling back up.
Marc:I was just so proud of you and excited, you know, because I always love reading your books and I always...
Marc:uh, get a big kick out of them.
Marc:But there, when he, when I, as I know you as a person and also as an artist that, you know, when you see somebody just sort of go like, Oh, this, it's all, this was the next one.
Marc:This was the, this is the one that, you know, it's all fully realized.
Marc:Um,
Marc:Yeah, I'm not saying you're done, but I'm saying that.
Guest:No, I want to feel like the worst feeling is, oh, the third book was the best.
Guest:And I've been on this downward.
Guest:I mean, and you're always going to meet people who like different books that you've written.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But you want to feel like.
Marc:yeah but don't trust those people no you want to feel like this is you know i'm as good as i can be now right and i'm exactly i'm as i'm the best i've been now and this is as good as i have done that's what you want to feel like right but you know that's weird for people like me and you and maybe i don't know really for you but like i know you know even if i did my best effort in the past yeah at the time that it wasn't there yet
Guest:Right.
Marc:You know, I know that I don't tell people that necessarily.
Marc:But when I look back on like, you know, like my choice to do thinky pain as a loose sort of hour and a half exploration of things that, you know, some of which were not fully realized.
Marc:And but I wanted that's what I wanted it to be.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I don't think it was a cop out or a rationalization.
Marc:That was just how I was working at that time.
Marc:And now, like, you know, after I did that, I'm like, well, I'm going to tighten it up.
Right.
Guest:right yeah like you know what i mean like that that was a good experiment you know i'm glad people like it they had its own quality to it but i gotta tighten it up yeah and there's also this sense i mean when you look back at the end of everything people are trying to make a story out of your career yeah everything you did and oh it went this way and built this way and reached this pinnacle
Guest:But that's not how you're feeling.
Guest:You're just feeling like now I want to try this.
Guest:And now I want to do this.
Guest:And now I want to go out in this direction.
Guest:And I want to go out in a different one.
Guest:And so you're not thinking of the arc of your biography when you're making all these choices about what you're working on.
Marc:Not insane, insecure, creative people.
Marc:Ambitious people that are able to project what they want their life to be and their career to be.
Marc:They seem to do that.
Marc:But, yeah, I don't have that luxury.
Guest:You're not saying, you know.
Marc:What would Marc Maron do now?
Marc:No.
Marc:Sometimes I wish I had more of that.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, that would help, actually.
Marc:It's true.
Marc:Some people, they lock in.
Marc:They're like, this is what I do good, and I'm going to keep doing this because it's making me money or whatever.
Guest:And this is what people want.
Marc:The benefit for us is that we haven't locked into something that makes a lot of other people money.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So you're not feeling that pressure.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:From us or the outside.
Guest:You're not supporting a lot of families.
Right.
Marc:Well, that's it.
Marc:Yeah, I've always, listen, I hate when I say I've always said that.
Marc:You don't make money until you make other people money.
Guest:That's the sign that you're making money, right?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, I've sort of gone around that, so that worked out.
Marc:I don't have to answer to anybody, but we're not talking about me.
Marc:We can, though.
Marc:No, I'm tired of it.
Marc:well let me ask you this because like you know you teach like they you know the one route that that people take you know in in your racket is that you know you haven't act like again this speaks to you know that planning or you know what what are you going to do with your talent that you know that you have and you haven't
Marc:Really sort of succumb to this sort of Faulknerian, you know journey to To to Hollywood well, I mean what?
Guest:People like me you can write for TV.
Guest:Yeah, and dude you can teach yeah You used to be able to get by on journalism doing magazine stuff, but that's kind of contracting and it's not really viable anymore So people are really it's now it's television or teaching
Guest:yeah and i mean i i have done a little bit of the tv stuff but mostly it's been most of my career has been teaching well what but what is your experience with it because i know some of your story your books have been optioned and you know and and you're maybe going to be made into a movie which is fine they give you some money and you're like yeah i mean that happens all the time they get a tiny bit of money and some somebody has an idea for a movie but wasn't there a point where you were kind of part of the process of making which one
Guest:Well, there's always been talk about the ask becoming a movie, but I did... Several years ago, I wrote a half-hour script that HBO bought, but nothing ever happened to it.
Guest:But I had this two-week period when I thought I was about to become this really successful showrunner.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what happened?
Marc:And you can imagine me as a showrunner.
Marc:I remember.
Marc:Like, what do I do?
Guest:And so it was almost like...
Guest:fantasy camp where like they make you you can pay to you know a thousand dollars and pretend you're a showrunner for a week that's what it felt like what happened with that um they just you know they what was it called it was called people city it was just a it was a i wrote it in a couple weeks just my agent said why don't you try writing something and i did and they bought it right away but and then i was you know going out to
Guest:Tea with movie stars to see if I liked them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah, sure.
Guest:And then and then, you know, who'd you go out with?
Guest:I had a nice a nice time drinking tea with Michael Keaton.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, he's great.
Guest:He's great.
Guest:Yeah, but it was just this moment where they're like, who do you know, how do you see it, Sam?
Guest:What you know, how are you going to realize your your vision?
Guest:And and then it was done.
Guest:Yeah, but it was it was fine.
Guest:It was it was a it was a
Guest:it was exactly the way it's supposed to go.
Guest:It was like every story you ever hear about how, how it didn't work out.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, but did you leave doubting your vision?
Guest:I had no, I mean, I had written a funny script, but I had no idea what I was doing and had no place at that point doing, you know, it shouldn't have happened because I'd even didn't really have a vision for a whole show, you know?
Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's where you call your friend Mark.
Marc:And you go like, what do you think we should do with this?
Marc:I think I did call you.
Marc:Maybe I wasn't ready.
Marc:I think you did call me.
Marc:But I'm like, I don't know.
Marc:Do you want me to introduce you to somebody?
Guest:Well, I mean, I think it was just one of those things where they were deciding between a couple shows and they went.
Marc:Well, I think also what's happening now is that like, oddly, when I get opportunities to do that kind of stuff,
Marc:because of the podcast or because like you know you're teaching and you're still writing your books it's like you really have to ask yourself it's like do i want to throw fucking a year or two of my life and time down that fucking you know hole because i mean you can be locked into that shit for years and it doesn't go anywhere
Guest:Right.
Guest:You have to want to be doing that.
Guest:That's what you needed to be chasing the whole time.
Guest:And I kind of stumbled into it.
Guest:And I wanted it to be like my old idea of Hollywood with writers where they just paid you some money for something and then told you to go away.
Guest:But they were like, no, we want you to be part of this.
Marc:But I think the point that I'm trying to get to in my mind is that you can do something on television and movies that is now,
Guest:because of the media landscape they can immediately become equally as irrelevant as books right yeah you know there's so much of it right like you can do this amazing thing and nobody will see it well yeah because it is like now it's the same thing because i hear people everyone's talking about a different show and they're and they're saying i i haven't seen that i've
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where is that?
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:What are you talking about?
Guest:It's the best thing on television.
Guest:It changed my life.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's the point I made earlier.
Marc:Do you remember?
Guest:I'm just catching up to it.
Guest:I'm a little slow today.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Well, that's a good point, Sam.
Guest:I don't know what you would do without my blazing insight.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:About the landscape, the cultural landscape.
Marc:No, I just like that we were so immersed in some other conversation then that when I brought it up, it apparently didn't register at all until you made it your own thought a half hour later.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Guest:When you first said it, I just said, file that away and bring it back as your own idea.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Don't acknowledge that he's having a good idea.
Marc:Or that you understand what he's saying.
Guest:Just blow by it now.
Guest:Circle back.
Marc:Let it go through your mill and drop it in where you feel like it's irrelevant.
Guest:But I'm doing some more stuff like that.
Guest:I think I might play around with that kind of writing.
Marc:Well, good.
Marc:But I got an email from somebody and I can't remember whether it was him or his daughter or something.
Marc:But somebody had written to me because I mentioned your name and said that either they were in your class or they said you're a great educator.
Guest:Well, that's nice to hear.
Guest:Yeah, I mean I this is a big it's the main part of my life.
Guest:I've been teaching for 1560 I remember when you started though and it was sort of like I don't want to get sucked in I don't want it.
Guest:Oh, I'm completely I'm chair of the department sucked in But do you remember when you were struggling with the bureaucracy?
Marc:You're like, I don't know if I can take now.
Guest:I am the bureaucrat
Marc:But what does that mean?
Guest:I'm the guy at the desk making things difficult.
Marc:But you didn't jockey for that.
Marc:Was it a process of elimination?
Guest:No, it's a rotation, and everyone in the program, all the teachers have to take their turn doing this kind of administrative work.
Marc:Are you going to be tenured?
Guest:i'm well it's funny you should ask after being there about 13 years i'm going up for tenure this year and do they put you up or you asked to be put up for it how does that i didn't ask but they said you know we think you should go up for tenure um and so i am but it's it's scary because if something goes wrong with it if you don't get tenure you're out of a job
Guest:what do you mean like either you get it you don't keep working call it you know up or out really yeah but why would you be out because of the if once you go through that process if you don't pass tenure yeah then you have to leave really yeah what kind of fucked up system is that's the academic system even if you're a great teacher well i mean i guess they're deciding that but uh huh
Guest:i mean we'll see i you know everyone who is in that world not everyone but a lot of people in that world have to go through this process and it can be very scary for people because usually they do it after seven years or something like that and then you know if they don't get tenure then they have to leave and find it find another job then you got to go to a smaller liberal arts college somewhere if you're lucky i mean i don't know
Guest:I mean, the other thing is my family, we live in Columbia Housing, where I teach.
Guest:So it's kind of, it's all company town sort of stuff.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:There's a little bit of that in the book, too.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's, what was it?
Marc:What did they make at that place?
Marc:Was it Waffles?
Guest:Yeah, no, it's a Waffle Town, yeah.
Guest:Frozen waffle factory.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, the company town, man.
Marc:It's like Stuyvesant Town.
Marc:Was that MetLife or what was it?
Marc:I don't know what it was, but it was something like that.
Marc:The insurance company, I think.
Guest:I mean, a lot of my books, I'm always interested in individuals' relationship to institutions and to the way you're kind of...
Guest:sucked the way you are sucked in you know well but but i think that it's it's it's sort of a beautiful thing that that you did you know after a certain point in time take to you know what the importance of of what teachers are well i mean absolutely i mean the thing is is that i never imagined myself as a teacher when i was younger right and i love i love teaching you do yeah oh yeah i mean i'm really that's one of my happiest times is in the classroom
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, that to me is a refuge from everything.
Guest:Now we're here and we're talking about stuff I care about and you care about.
Guest:And we're all here trying to get better as writers.
Guest:That to me is really exciting.
Guest:So that was always a thing of, oh, some people have to write.
Guest:I mean, some people have to teach so they can write.
Guest:And it's what a drag.
Guest:But no, that it's been that's been really thrilling.
Marc:But that was but that was an evolution for you.
Guest:Well, I had to find out that I was a teacher.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But also you had to also because I think that at the beginning, you know, that was the thought that it was some sort of concession.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Marc:That it was a necessity.
Marc:If I wasn't going to sell out or try to do that or dilute myself or become desperate, you know, and have to pimp out or, you know, whore out my skills.
Marc:You know, you teach, you know, like there's that that that model, you know, as somebody with a fiction writer, you know, always existed.
Marc:But it also implied that on some level, I don't know if it's true or not, but that you weren't a success.
Guest:Yeah, well, that was the idea.
Guest:Well, they always said those who can't do teach.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But in my world, everybody teaches.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:But there's always that hovering over.
Guest:And then you find out that you really love teaching.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Or what I did anyway.
Marc:Well, that's great.
Marc:And what do you try to impart in the kids in a general way, if you could, you know, in terms of approaching writing?
Guest:That nobody cares.
Yeah.
Marc:is that the name of the first class that's that's yeah that's the first class that's good if i ever write a uh a book about you know writing writing it'll be just called nobody cares except you got to decide whether you do yeah do you care chapter one do you care care and do you see the the contraction academically in you know writing programs in the liberal arts in general
Guest:Well, I know.
Guest:I mean, ours has been growing.
Guest:I think a lot of people, a lot of people want to study this and a lot of people that normally because of various socioeconomic factors or others felt shut out of these kinds of programs are kind of coming in and bringing new perspectives.
Guest:And so, you know, there's more diversity in all ways.
Guest:And so that's I mean, that's something that's, I think, great.
Marc:And do you find that most of the students are looking to, you know, build a life in writing fiction?
Guest:Or do you think that, you know, that the... I think a lot of them are realists and see that it's not like 1972 right now.
Guest:And it's a different world out there for a literary novelist or a short story writer.
Guest:And, you know, they're...
Guest:So I think some of them want to write books, but they're thinking, well, maybe I'll teach or maybe I'll find some other thing to do as well.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think a lot of them are... I mean, I remember... This was a couple of years ago.
Guest:I walked in on my...
Guest:class and they were already talking about stuff and they were talking about all these writers and they were dropping all these writers names and i i didn't recognize any of them and i thought oh my god i'm really out of it i'm not paying attention to what's happening in in literature right now yeah i really got to catch up i'm really falling behind and i kept listening and then i finally said who are these people and they were all tv writers that they were talking about so
Guest:So I think they're savvy and they understand that that's a place that they need to look into as well.
Marc:And also because there's been a lot more space afforded that medium to explore more literary things.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, you can do a lot of stuff there.
Guest:It's not like... We used to... Back in the day, you could only do things... You could do things in books that you couldn't do on TV.
Guest:Now you can...
Guest:So there's no content you can't do on TV.
Marc:And what do you think?
Guest:And the question is, if that's the case, then why write a book?
Guest:And it has to be because you care about language.
Guest:It has to be because you care about that medium.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And do you think that... Because there's no story you can't tell on television.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:But what you can do in a book is capture the speed of thought and association and funnel it through poetic language.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So if you want to do that, and that excites you, and that has to be what gives you a charge, then you're in the right place to be writing.
Guest:But I think that for all sorts of people, fiction is...
Guest:is a really uh still an exciting yeah and um liberating place to to operate both as writers and readers and there is something that that prose fiction can do that movies can't do and i say this to my students when i'm teaching when we're talking about even what's what they're doing in a specific scene or saying you know would a movie do that better yeah because if a movie did it better do something else right
Guest:If you're just describing a... Know the battle.
Guest:I'm just like, is that just a reaction shot that you're giving us?
Guest:Do something else because we have a medium for that.
Marc:You do.
Marc:You tell them that because that's the way they think, I imagine, some of them.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:Just to say, I think that it will always find new relevance and new meaning for new generations and people are still... Maybe it's going away, but...
Guest:People talk about the internet, the bad internet and all that stuff.
Guest:But the fact is that people through email and texting are writing all the time.
Guest:So in a way, even the idea of expressing yourself through language, through written text is something that's still happening.
Marc:It happens more now in a way because less people want to talk.
Guest:Right, because it used to be just the telephone.
Guest:Now everyone's writing a treatise just to go out to coffee.
Marc:Yeah, everyone's misreading the tone of text.
Guest:Exactly, right.
Guest:Well, and then you have to learn how to be a better writer.
Marc:To be a good teacher.
Guest:Just to be able to meet your friend for coffee.
Marc:Okay, I'll let you have that.
Marc:That seems like a good rationalization.
Guest:I mean, it's borderline.
Marc:Yeah, good.
Marc:It's solid.
Marc:So have you decided on sections of the book that you're going to read when you go out and read your book, Hark?
Guest:I've been playing around with a few different ones.
Marc:You want to read one?
Guest:You want me to read something?
Marc:Yeah, read something.
Marc:And then I want you to tell me on the mics that Jewish joke you told me the other day.
Guest:I'll just read the very beginning and then I'll read another little bit.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Listen.
Guest:Before Hark, was it ever harder to be human?
Guest:Was it ever harder to believe in our world?
Guest:The weather made us wonder.
Guest:The markets had.
Guest:The wars.
Guest:The rich had stopped pretending they were just the best of us and not some utterly different form of life.
Guest:The rest, the most, could glimpse their end on earth, in the parched basins and roiling seas, but could not march against their masters.
Guest:They slaughtered each other instead, retracted into glowing holes.
Guest:Hark glowed, too.
Guest:He came to us and was goldeny.
Guest:It wasn't that Hark had the answer.
Guest:It was more that he didn't.
Guest:All he possessed, he claimed, were a few tricks or tips to help people focus.
Guest:At work, at home, out for coffee with a client or a friend.
Guest:Listen, before Hark, was it ever harder to find focus?
Guest:Hark gathered his tips together, called it mental archery.
Guest:Pretty silly, he liked to say.
Guest:but some knew better some were certain he had a secret a mystery a miracle for what was mental archery but the essence of hark and what was the essence of hark but love in this hurt world how could that hurt the hunters of meaning had found no meaning the wanters of dreams were dreamless many now drifted toward hark mourner
Guest:This is like the backstory.
Guest:The front story is about a bunch of people and a movement they launched under the banner of Hark, a movement that maybe meant nothing at all.
Guest:Or maybe it did.
Guest:It's tough to tell.
Guest:The past is tricky, often half-hidden, like a pale, flabby young man flung naked into a crowded square.
Guest:The past doesn't stand there, Grant ganders.
Guest:The past clasps his crotch, scurries for the cover of stanchions, benches.
Guest:History hides.
Guest:That's its job.
Guest:It hides behind other history.
Marc:Great.
Marc:That's the opening of the book.
Marc:I'm in.
Guest:And then here's a little bit about one of the characters, Tova, and her kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Tova's on the train with the twins.
Guest:She sits between them, keeps them yoked in relatively loose pro wrestler chokeholds.
Guest:They are temporarily immobilized and thus unable to assault each other or fellow riders, both of which with these maniacs are possibilities, especially this morning.
Guest:Meanwhile, she texts emendations to her supervisor's proposal,
Guest:to the provisional head of development at the Blended Learning Enhancement Project.
Guest:Her supervisor, Cal, possesses what Tova knows the business community deems leadership qualities, meaning he's equal parts fool and lout, a human facsimile on a ceaseless quest to collect his salary and cover his butt.
Guest:apropos of which the reason she's here on the subway restraining her kids in semi-legal grappler grips instead of already at her desk is because one or both of her children have as she put it as concisely as she could on the phone to the doctor concerns of the ass more specifically ass worms
Guest:Tova may have assworms too.
Guest:What happened was that all of their assholes started to itch, and Tova looked this symptom up, discovered a detailed photograph of a hairy, nearly microscopic worm.
Guest:Somebody had earned enough trust from this creature to achieve a lively, candid shot, as the critter regarded the camera with unamused scorn, mostly expressed through what Tova supposed were eyes, but on further inspection might have been anal orifices themselves.
Guest:Tova tried to call Fraz, but hasn't been able to reach him.
Guest:He could be tutoring, or doing a favor for Mr. Dirsch, or more likely, cleaning and jerking, perhaps at the gym, more likely at home.
Marc:excellent so funny buddy thank you man and now to close i want you to tell me that joke again because like uh there there's few jokes like whatever my decision is and whatever the history of jewish comedy is but there's the joke i told john cleese you know which is you know when he went in he had a hat you know that bit right yeah yeah did you i don't think you told me that no no but i've heard that joke yeah i've probably told you i would hope
Guest:I think you did tell.
Guest:Yeah, that's where I did hear it years ago.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:With the grandfather and the son on the beach.
Marc:Right, yeah.
Marc:So tell me the one you told me again, because I want to make sure I get that.
Guest:I think I might have heard this first from Gordon Lish.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:20 years ago.
Guest:Well, I'm not as good a joke telling you.
Guest:No, you're great.
Guest:But there's a...
Guest:the old man an old man's dying yeah and he's at home and uh he's in his on his bed on his deathbed and he's he's dying and his his son his grown son comes to see him and sits by his bedside and says dad dad i'm so sorry i'm so sorry you've been such a good father you've been such a wonderful dad is a
Guest:Is there anything I can do for you now?
Guest:Do you need anything?
Guest:Is there anything I can help you with, Dad?
Guest:Is there anything I can do?
Guest:And Dad says, oh, son, it's so good to see you.
Guest:You're such a good boy.
Guest:You're such a lovely boy.
Guest:I'm just so glad you're here.
Guest:I guess there's... No, there's really nothing.
Guest:Well, maybe there's one thing you could do for me, boy.
Guest:Anything, Dad.
Guest:Dad, just tell me anything.
Guest:I'll do anything.
Guest:Well, son, I...
Guest:i smell your mother's chopped liver coming in from the the kitchen and it smells so good she just makes the best chopped liver and son i mean i'm on my deathbed i don't know how long i've got but you you think you could just go into the kitchen and get a little of that chopped liver and just put it on a cracker and and bring it back to your old man do you think you could do that son and of course dad of course anything i i'll be right back of course and son leaves
Guest:A little while later, the son comes back, and he's empty-handed, and the dad says, son, son, what happened?
Guest:Why don't you have the chopped liver?
Guest:Why didn't you bring me back the chopped liver?
Guest:And the son says, I'm sorry, dad, but mom says it's for after.
Marc:Yes, and that's it.
Marc:That's the entire history of the Jews somehow, the American Jews.
Marc:It's pretty good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, buddy.
Marc:It was good talking to you.
Marc:Do you want to eat?
Marc:Yeah, we should eat.
Marc:What do you feel like eating?
Marc:No what?
Marc:No Greek this time.
Marc:Do you want to go over and see if we can sit down at that Ross and Daughters Cafe?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it looked pretty crowded, but I think we could check it out.
Marc:What, you walk by the one in Houston?
Marc:No, they got a cafe.
Marc:It's probably down an orchard where you can sit at a table like a person and eat Jew food.
Guest:Okay, let's go eat some Jew food.
Guest:Okay.
Okay.
Marc:Sam Lipsight and me talking into mics in a hotel room in New York City.
Marc:Love it.
Marc:Love him.
Marc:The new novel is Hark.
Marc:It's available for pre-order now.
Marc:It comes out next Tuesday, January 15th.
Marc:All right, so I will play guitar.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:It's nothing original.
Bye.
Marc:Boomer lives!