Episode 963 - Zoe Kazan
Marc:Lock the gate!
Marc:It's odd that when I lived in this city, I don't know that I spent any time here almost ever.
Marc:Occasionally, you go to the park.
Marc:Occasionally, you go to the Carnegie Deli, which is now just an empty awning around the corner.
Marc:And I'm just struggling with a certain amount of isolation.
Marc:It's an odd thing.
Marc:I guess I can talk about that in a minute.
Marc:It's been a pretty gnarly week last week, a pretty fucking horrendous week last week.
Marc:with no real relief in sight, with a completely morally bankrupt president who does not know how to address nor care to address, and I think might even not so secretly support the actions that took place last week.
Marc:Horrible.
Marc:Attempted bombings, executions of African Americans, a massacre of Jews.
Horrible.
Marc:in our country, and I know that this stuff has been talked about a lot, but it's hard if you're a decent person with at least a small, even just a fragment of a moral compass and a conscience and some capacity for empathy and some capacity for seeing how this affects people and feeling
Marc:horrible for what's happening, it's hard to not be living in it with a certain amount of heartbreak and horror and fear.
Marc:And how do you sort of manage that?
Marc:What do you do as everything just gets plowed under and sort of a tsunami of information and mind-fuckedness?
Marc:But I think the saddest part and the most horrible part outside of the deaths themselves and the terrorism is
Marc:is that wondering just how many people in this country think what's happened is tremendous.
Marc:Whatever the case was with that lunatic who sent those bombs.
Yeah.
Marc:How many people in this country think this is tremendous?
Marc:This is the country going in the right direction.
Marc:How many people in this country, when they see African Americans executed, think this is terrific?
Marc:This is exactly the direction we should be going.
Marc:How many people in the country, when they see a slaughter of Jews,
Marc:At a bris, at a synagogue, think like, this is it.
Marc:This is the turning.
Marc:Finally.
Marc:Finally, this country is heading in the right direction.
Marc:How many of those are there out there?
Marc:I think about it a lot.
Marc:It's horrifying.
Marc:And I don't mean to start the Monday off in a dark way, but I have to address it.
Marc:And I was in New York City here working on the Joker movie the day that the bomb was found at Robert De Niro's restaurant, Robert De Niro's building.
Marc:That was the day we were doing our scene together.
Marc:So I'm heading into the city with the Teamster and we don't know what's going to happen.
Marc:Is Robert De Niro going to show up?
Marc:Does he have a lot of stuff to deal with?
Marc:Was anybody hurt?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:And I got there and he was there.
Marc:Spent a lot of time on the phone dealing with it.
Marc:What I imagine was how to handle a situation.
Marc:Maybe he had employees that were scared.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I didn't talk to him about that.
Marc:But he showed up for work and he was resolute and strong.
Marc:He wasn't afraid.
Marc:For me, it seemed like an awkward time to be meeting him and be working with him.
Marc:But he was pretty unfazed.
Marc:And we talked about it a bit.
Marc:I'm reluctant to sort of talk about whatever conversations we had, almost about anything, because I know there are sort of kind of...
Marc:parasitical outlets that you know want to paraphrase things so I don't want to do any paraphrasing myself and fuel a fire but we did have some other conversations a bit I didn't know the scene that I'm doing is relatively tight but it is you know we had to shoot it a lot and we had to you know sort of be with each other in the hallway in between takes and
Marc:We talked a bit about movies.
Marc:We talked a bit about Ray Liotta.
Marc:We talked a bit about The King of Comedy.
Marc:He's a very sweet guy, very soft-spoken guy.
Marc:But I was just very sort of amazed at his lack of fear in the face of what he had to deal with that morning and his professionalism.
Marc:But on top of that, though, just the fact that he was not, it did not, from what I could tell, I can't speak for him, but
Marc:He seemed just the resolve in terms of he just was not shaken.
Marc:So it's fucked up.
Marc:It's fucked up and even more frightening as we converge on this election.
Marc:So just, I don't know where you are or what you're thinking in terms of this vote, but I got to mail my ballot in tomorrow.
Marc:I'm in California, and this is one of those situations where you think your state government is solid or that you don't have to engage.
Marc:It's clear that you have to engage and you have to vote.
Marc:Because there's no, the falconer can't see the falcon and then some strange beast is slouching towards Bethlehem and something needs to give.
Marc:And if it doesn't, during this midterm, I don't even know what's going to happen to the reality of this country or certainly what's going to happen to the spirit of trying to correct things.
Marc:Because this is a big mind fuck for everybody.
Marc:Anyway, I'll lighten up a little bit.
Marc:You know, I had a guest on not long ago named Aaron Draplin.
Marc:He's a designer, a graphic designer, sort of a genius, sort of a compulsive genius, a man fascinated with the art of the logo.
Marc:And he's an incredible artist in his own right, wrote an amazing book.
Marc:We had a lovely interview.
Marc:And we asked Aaron to do a special edition WTF shirt for us.
Marc:And he did an amazing one.
Marc:I put the picture on Twitter and Instagram so you can see what it looks like.
Marc:And people who come to my show at the Beacon on November 10th here in New York City will have a first crack at it.
Marc:That's the first place it's going to be on sale.
Marc:So you Beacon people will be the first ones to wear it.
Marc:Then afterwards, we'll have it for sale in the merch store so you can get them before the holiday.
Marc:You know, Draplin's amazing because he has an appreciation of graphic design, of logo art, of the history of it.
Marc:It just informs everything he does.
Marc:It's a great shirt.
Marc:So there's that.
Marc:I didn't mention today that I had Zoe Kazan on.
Marc:She's got a film that she co-wrote with Paul Dano, her partner.
Marc:And they're not married, but they're together.
Marc:And he directed it, and it's now playing in select cities.
Marc:It's called Wildlife.
Marc:We'll talk to her in a few minutes.
Marc:I had a nice conversation with her.
Marc:I enjoyed the movie.
Marc:I watched it very intently.
Marc:I like Paul Dano.
Marc:I've talked to him before, so that's coming up.
Marc:I guess I should talk a little bit about New York, if I could, because I'm continuing feeling a bit alienated from it.
Marc:And I guess I should...
Marc:Outside of the politics of the week and the slaughter and bloodletting of the week and the fucking horrendous terrorism that's happening in our country.
Marc:I should say that my experience on the Joker was insanely exciting.
Marc:Like I said, it's not it's not it's not a huge part.
Marc:It's not a huge scene even.
Marc:But to engage as an actor with Robert De Niro and with Joaquin Phoenix was amazing.
Marc:was pretty amazing.
Marc:I didn't really talk to Joaquin Phoenix.
Marc:He seems to be pretty submerged in his work, but it was sort of a baptism into a movie making that I had not, you know, I had a little part in Almost Famous a Million Years Ago, and I've done a couple little movies, but this was, you know, this was big time, and I was hoping I would do good work, and I think I did all right.
Marc:It was funny because when we were doing the scene, De Niro went to the director, and then the director comes to me, and there was this moment where it's like, you know, he said, you're a little big, a little big at the end there.
Marc:So I had to make adjustments, did a little acting.
Marc:But it was a great experience.
Marc:I think it's going to be a pretty wild movie.
Marc:It's definitely kind of hallucinatory to be on a film set that is a different world for 12, 13 hours a day.
Marc:Anyway, that being said, to sort of move into more about New York that I was feeling the other day, which was nostalgia and what nostalgia means in the sort of darkness at the edge of it.
Marc:Yeah, I used to always say that Los Angeles is horrible because it's a horrible place to feel that you can feel very alone there and isolated.
Marc:But yeah.
Marc:I think New York, it's worse if you feel isolated in New York, you know, because I'm here.
Marc:I'm stuck in Midtown.
Marc:I'm in a hotel.
Marc:There are things I want to do.
Marc:There's always things.
Marc:That's the other part about being in Manhattan is sort of the part of your brain is sort of like, geez, New York City.
Marc:I should be out doing something.
Marc:I should be out.
Marc:Man, there's a million things going on there.
Marc:How come I'm not doing something?
Marc:That feeling is kind of an unnerving because that goes right to like everyone else is doing something but me.
Marc:And then that goes to like I'm missing everything.
Marc:And that goes to like I'm a fucking loser.
Marc:Look at me sitting here doing nothing.
Marc:But those are old patterns.
Marc:But I do think that being isolated in a city that's filled with people is definitely a worse feeling than being isolated in a city where you don't see anybody around.
Marc:Because when you're in your own head among people, that's a type of loneliness that really kind of pounds at you.
Marc:Because they're all right there.
Marc:Everyone's right there.
Marc:We're all people.
Marc:Why can't I feel connected to people?
Marc:But when you're out in LA and you're sitting alone in your house, you're like, well, there's nobody around, so fuck it.
Marc:It's different.
Marc:And I think you can ground yourself in it a little differently.
Marc:But I'm just sort of struggling with these feelings.
Marc:And I need to go down.
Marc:I need to, like I should go down the cellar, get a couple sets in here and there.
Marc:But I just haven't.
Marc:I haven't wanted to.
Marc:And then I start to think about what the place used to be.
Marc:I start thinking about how it was when Patrice O'Neill was around, when Greg Giraldo was around, and what's going on down there now.
Marc:They changed the whole layout of the place.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I just have to sit with the fact that it's okay to just be in the hotel room, do my work, talk to you from the mic, do a little reading, fester about my diet, and walk around here, go shopping,
Marc:For almond milk and fruit.
Marc:And that's okay.
Marc:That's not a bad afternoon.
Marc:And also that.
Marc:I'm an old middle aged man now.
Marc:I don't need to run around.
Marc:What am I going to run around and do?
Marc:You know what's interesting.
Marc:Is that I watched my buddy Steve Brill.
Marc:Directed the new Adam Sandler.
Marc:special on netflix and look i years ago sandler and i had a problem i saw him recently at an event and he was nice to me i'd love to talk to him but i i was never you know i was a little older to be
Marc:To be grabbed by the Sandler thing.
Marc:I don't know if I would have been grabbed by the Sandler thing, but certainly have known him and certainly have liked some of the work he's done.
Marc:But I'll tell you, this stand-up special, it's a very touching, very personal, and oddly very Sandler special.
Marc:And the effect of it, I watched the whole thing and I...
Marc:And I was moved, and it was a great show.
Marc:He's somehow able to maintain what makes him Sandler from when you were a kid, if you grew up with him, but also to be mature and share the life he's living now and write some clever songs.
Marc:And there's a joke in there about...
Marc:His dad that killed me.
Marc:I actually squirted out a few tears.
Marc:I laughed a few times.
Marc:I enjoyed it.
Marc:I'm just saying that because I don't know what some of you people think I am.
Marc:And I think I've judged Adam harshly when I was younger and more angry.
Marc:But I thought the special was great.
Marc:And this isn't even a paid ad.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:What do you think of that?
Marc:I'm just saying a fellow comedian.
Marc:who I haven't seen do stand-up in a long time, if ever really, for a whole hour, did a great stand-up special.
Marc:That's that.
Marc:Why is it so hard for me just to say that?
Marc:Why?
Marc:Why do I got to be that?
Marc:Why is it so hard?
Marc:Huh?
Marc:So Zoe Kazan is here and not here.
Marc:Well, I, you know, I did, you know, recorded it, you know, at home, but I watched the film wildlife and I watched it very intently and I, and I enjoyed it and I thought it was beautifully shot and beautifully executed.
Marc:She co-wrote the film with Paul Dano.
Marc:He directed it and it's now playing in select cities.
Marc:And this is my conversation with her about her.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:But I grew up in Albuquerque.
Guest:I like Albuquerque.
Marc:You do?
Guest:Yeah, but I've only spent like, you know, two weeks there shooting something.
Marc:You had to go there for the shooting.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It's been 10 years.
Marc:10 years since you've been to Albuquerque to shoot things?
Marc:Seems like everyone shoots there all the time.
Marc:What did you shoot there?
Guest:I shot in Santa Fe recently.
Guest:That's a little swankier.
Guest:Yeah, I shot a movie called In the Valley of Allah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Who was in that movie?
Guest:Charlize Theron.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was like a big movie, wasn't it?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I had a little part in it.
Marc:Oh, it was early on?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was one of those, hey, hi.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, I'm going to go now parts.
Guest:Except like when you're a girl, it's like, hey, hi, I'm going to be naked and now you're going to kill me parts.
Marc:It was one of those?
Marc:Yeah, one of those.
Marc:That was what was in the breakdown?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Naked gets killed.
Guest:Yeah, it says must be okay with nudity on like the first 20 things that I did.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, I had to do that with Glow.
Marc:I was only right.
Marc:Right, because all the women had to sign him, and what am I going to be like, no.
Marc:So I signed one, and I showed my butt.
Guest:In what scene?
Marc:It was in the first season, you know, when I walked to the door after I swept with Kate Nash.
Guest:Oh, right.
Marc:And there's my butt.
Marc:And I used my own butt.
Guest:How do you feel about that?
Marc:It's all right.
Marc:You know, I don't know how it would have felt if it was my front.
Marc:Like, you know, because I guess what you have to take in mind is like, this is going to live forever as a meme or on a thing.
Marc:It's going to be always available.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yes, I know.
Marc:Your buddy Betty has a lot of those out there.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Betty and I both.
Marc:You do too?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And how do you feel about that?
Guest:Not good.
Guest:Not good.
Marc:Not good to have new things out there.
Guest:No, it doesn't feel good.
Guest:It doesn't feel good when you're then trying to make deals and they're like two inches of her butt crack or six frames of side boob or something.
Marc:That's in your deal?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:And that's a negotiating point.
Marc:Because you're like, no, she doesn't want to do nudity.
Marc:How about a little, just a little bit?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So then you end up with inches of butt crack.
Marc:Oh, and they actually measure it?
Marc:I have no idea.
Marc:Or is that just a general... So you've never been on a set and they're like, can we just get the ass measurer out?
Guest:No, but then what ends up happening is that on set someone goes like, you know, for the shot it would be better.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, they kind of weasel.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But did you grow up out here?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I grew up in Venice Beach.
Marc:Venice Beach.
Guest:So when I watch Glow, it looks very familiar to me.
Marc:Yeah, because like, okay, so... I was born in 83.
Marc:Oh, right.
Marc:So like those are your earliest memories.
Marc:For sure.
Marc:Women wearing that kind of stuff on the beach.
Guest:Yeah, and men looking just like you did.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Just like me acting like me.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's like every single one of my dad's friends.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I see.
Marc:I think that's what I think it's sort of nice about my character about Sam Sylvia is he does get catch a break from the ladies even given the climate we're living in because he reminds them of people that they knew from their dad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like my pediatrician.
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:Well, I don't think Sam's that terrible.
Guest:No, I don't either.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean it in a good way.
Marc:No, no, I know.
Marc:He's a little old school, a little sexist, but he's, you know, he breaks down.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You play it really well.
Marc:Thank you very much.
Marc:That's very nice of you to say.
Guest:I love it.
Marc:And you're like best pals with Betty?
Guest:Yeah, Betty and I go way back.
Guest:She's one of my, you know, sister friends.
Marc:It took me a while.
Marc:Like the first season, I was just scared of her.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was like, I don't know even how to talk to that person.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:And I don't usually have that problem.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Well, I just was sort of like, she's intense.
Marc:But then second season, Betty and I were better.
Marc:It was good.
Marc:I love her.
Marc:I think she's great.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Guest:I first met Betty when she was at the Williamstown Theater Festival with some friends of mine.
Marc:Where's that?
Marc:Williamstown?
Guest:Williamstown, Massachusetts.
Marc:Okay, yeah.
Marc:I wasn't sure.
Guest:And I remember seeing her from far away and thinking she looked really confident.
Guest:And then getting to know her and realizing that she had a lot of work to do on that front.
Guest:And now she's soaring.
Guest:It's beautiful.
Marc:What's interesting to me in talking about glow, and I don't know if I've said it publicly, is that, you know, Allison came up here and she's very much a product of this business.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And Betty's like New York theater.
Marc:So you get these two completely different approaches in a way.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And experience with with acting.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That are kind of going head to head.
Guest:Yeah, and Betty and I have that in common.
Guest:We both came up in the theater.
Guest:So it's one of the things that, like, you know, we met probably in audition rooms long before we became friends.
Marc:So how does it work?
Marc:So you grew up in Venice Beach and you have the sister that I think I met once.
Guest:Maya.
Marc:Maya, who lived by Sarah, my girlfriend, Sarah the painter.
Marc:And that's it?
Marc:Just one sister?
Marc:Just the two of us, yeah.
Marc:And you grew up in show business, really?
Guest:Yeah, sort of.
Marc:I don't know what that's like.
Marc:Is that like, but like in the sense it's sort of like, it's just what your parents did.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And also I grew up with like screenwriter parents.
Guest:So I grew up with two people who are like sitting at home hunched in front of their computers.
Marc:Did they write together?
Guest:Yeah, they wrote, they wrote two movies together.
Guest:One of which got made this movie, this children's movie, Matilda, they wrote together.
Guest:And then they've both written a bunch separately.
Marc:They're working screenwriters.
Guest:Both of them.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:They're writing right now?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:As we speak?
Guest:Well, not as we speak.
Marc:No, but I mean, do you know what they're working on?
Marc:Do they talk to you about it?
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:My mom talks to me about it more than my dad.
Guest:My dad's more secretive.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They have separate writing rooms?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you also are a sort of a legacy, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:My grandpa is a director.
Marc:Your grandpa was a director.
Guest:Was a director.
Marc:Elia.
Guest:Elia.
Marc:Elia Kazan.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:I know his movie.
Marc:I didn't know how to pronounce his first name.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:You did really good.
Marc:No, I didn't.
Marc:I did it wrong and you corrected me.
Guest:Oh, that's okay.
Marc:But did you know him?
Guest:Yeah, he died when I was 20.
Marc:Oh, and was he pretty cognizant all to the end?
Guest:Yeah, totally.
Guest:You know, I feel like I got the best of him as a grandfather, sort of, because he was like 75 when I was born.
Guest:So he was like ready to be a grandparent.
Marc:Was he retired completely?
Guest:He was sort of retired.
Guest:He didn't make any movies or directed any plays after I was born, but he wrote his autobiography after I was born and was still writing until he died.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you read his autobiography?
Marc:Never.
Marc:Never did?
Marc:Mm-mm.
Marc:Huh.
Guest:Yeah, I skimmed through it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, actually, just in the last year and was like, I never need to read this.
Marc:Well, you just want to know all that stuff.
Marc:They're like, there's certain things as a granddaughter, you don't need to know about your grandpa.
Guest:Yeah, there's a lot I think about his sex life in it.
Guest:But also, it's like, you know, you have a you have a like a personal experience with someone and then the world has an experience.
Guest:And I feel like there's some part of me that just wants to protect my own experience of him.
Marc:Yeah, that makes sense.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like coming up when you were a kid, like when you started to sort of realize who he was, did you go watch his movies?
Marc:Did they inform you in any way?
Guest:I didn't know that he was a director until I was, like, 12.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:I knew he was, like, a powerful person because of the way people treated him.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:But I didn't really know what he did, and no one ever talked to me about it.
Guest:Hmm.
Guest:Well, you know, growing up in L.A., like, every kid I knew, their parents were basically in the industry.
Guest:You know, like... Why'd you go to one of those schools?
Guest:No, but, like...
Guest:it was just the way it was just the way it was like my two best friends growing up both their dads were film editors like another one of my friends like had two parents who were working actors like jobbing actors yeah and another friend's dad was like a carpenter for the movies you know like so it just didn't seem that weird and I and I just didn't I don't know like he was just my grandpa and then I went to a different school for middle school and yeah
Guest:My middle school drama teacher said, oh, are you related to, which is the first time that had ever happened to me.
Guest:And she said his name, but she said it wrong.
Guest:Yeah, like I did.
Guest:And also I called him Ilya Papu because Papu is Greek for grandfather.
Guest:And I was like, no, that's no, my grandpa's name is Ilya Papu.
Guest:And then, you know, went home and asked my parents about it.
Guest:And then they showed me, I think Viva Zapata was the first one I saw.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Seems like kind of child friendly.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and then On the Waterfront.
Guest:And then On the Waterfront and Streetcar.
Guest:I think those four.
Marc:You know what's really hard to find for a while was Facing the Crowd.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's the best fucking movie, man.
Guest:And it's pretty apropos of right now, right?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:It's just a crazy movie.
Marc:I mean, I remember when I saw it, I'm like, why didn't I know about this?
Marc:Because I saw it within the last decade, probably.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Marc:You did too?
Guest:Yeah, I didn't see it until like four or five years ago.
Marc:It just wasn't one of those ones that was easily available.
Marc:You had to order, like, I don't remember where I saw it or why I saw it, but I was like, holy shit.
Guest:Yeah, that and Panic in the Streets I hadn't seen until recently.
Marc:Yeah, and like, I guess the big ones were like Splendor in the Grass, right?
Marc:That was his, and East of Eden on the waterfront, and the only other one, the other, Streetcar.
Guest:America, America, Streetcar, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, those were big movies.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:But you know, like, I just don't, like, I think it's interesting that
Marc:Like a lot of people don't really realize, you know, people have a certain concept of celebrity and of, you know, the movies, but it is an industry town.
Marc:And like the fact that like, you know, carpenters in the movie, like, you know, it's like this, this industry employs all levels of workers.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it's just like the business.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, completely costume designers.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it's crazy.
Marc:It sometimes annoys me, people's impression of Hollywood.
Marc:It's a big fucking machine, you know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, sometimes it used to annoy me at first when I first started out acting, and people would be like, oh, you're a Hollywood royalty or something.
Guest:I'd be like, that is so far away from the way I was raised.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was raised in such a grounded way.
Marc:By writers.
Guest:By writers, exactly, who are like the biggest introverts in the world and so loving and such a, I don't know, we sat down as a family for dinner every single night of my childhood.
Marc:That's the nice thing about having writers.
Marc:Completely.
Guest:They could be at home.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:They take a break.
Guest:They come out of their room.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Guest:Chop up some garlic, throw in the pasta.
Marc:And then go back into their rooms.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Marc:So you probably, you know, I just had to deal with that in telling somebody I was going to interview.
Marc:You're like, no, those royalty, those, like it's easier for them.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know if that's true.
Marc:I don't think it, well, why is it?
Guest:Well, I can't pretend to know, right?
Guest:Because I only know what I know.
Guest:But I would assume that it is slightly easier at the beginning to get a meeting or something.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:With an agent or with whoever.
Guest:I bet it would be foolish to think that that didn't give me some kind of leg up.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I think the real thing is that it doesn't give you an advantage for very long.
Marc:Exactly, you gotta deliver the goods.
Marc:Yeah, or no one will hire you again.
Marc:Right, but your entry in is a little smoother.
Guest:I would guess that that's true.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So when did you decide that that was something you wanted to do?
Marc:Because I can't believe both you and your sister are doing it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My sister's an actor too.
Guest:I think I did as soon as I knew what kind of a job that was.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You saw it as a job first, not as like, I want to be a movie star?
Guest:No, not at all.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That seems like a good job.
Guest:Yeah, I think I, I think as a very little kid, it didn't seem like I didn't really understand what an actor did.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like you watch movies and it's just like the people on the screen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then probably at like nine or ten sort of occurred to me that that was a job.
Guest:That was something people could do.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Play pretend for a living.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Play pretend.
Guest:That seemed like a good job.
Guest:But I wanted to be a writer before I wanted to be an actor.
Guest:So that one came first.
Marc:It did?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When did you start writing things for things?
Guest:Like before I could spell.
Marc:But like writing, what did you think?
Marc:Writing for movies or just writing?
Guest:I thought I wanted to be like a poet.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Poets.
Marc:That's a good job.
Guest:Great.
Guest:Great job.
Guest:Very lucrative.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:A lot of security.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:In the poet game.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can be secure that you're never going to make any money.
Marc:You can be secure that if you don't get a teaching job, it's not going to really pan out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:So I wrote a lot of poetry and then stories and then... How do those poems hold up, Zoe?
Guest:You know, they're little kids' poems.
Marc:You do say Zoe, don't you?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, good.
Guest:What, like Zoe?
Marc:Yeah, some people do that.
Guest:Do you know... So I think they do it partially because Zoe Caldwell was like a famous actress.
Guest:And her parents... When I met her, I said, oh, people always call me Zoe because of you.
Guest:And she said, oh, my parents didn't know how to pronounce the name.
Guest:They mispronounced her name for her life.
Guest:By the time I was in high school, I was like, you know, writing little plays and acting them out.
Guest:Well, I started doing that as a kid.
Guest:I mean, it's part I feel partially to blame for my sister's acting career because like I enlisted her into my projects as a little kid.
Marc:How much, what's the age difference?
Guest:We're three years apart.
Marc:She's younger.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:So like starting at probably five or six, I started, you know, putting on little plays on our futon in our living room.
Marc:For your folks?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Were they proud?
Marc:Look, they're writers.
Marc:Look, she's a writer.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think they were a little trepidatious.
Guest:When I told them I wanted to be an actor, they were pretty upset.
Marc:Isn't that interesting about people in show business?
Marc:It's like, can't you do anything else?
Marc:I know.
Marc:Do you want a life of heartbreak?
Guest:Why don't you be a scientist?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Why the rejection?
Marc:Why do you crave this horrible thing?
Guest:You know, when I was graduating high school, I wanted to go to conservatory and my parents told me that they wouldn't, you know, pay for it.
Guest:They wouldn't help me if that's what I did.
Guest:They wanted you to go to college?
Guest:They wanted me to go to college, college.
Guest:So I did.
Guest:And I think it was one of the better parenting moves they ever made.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Decide after you go get an education.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm so grateful to have my mind.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It's good.
Marc:So you acted in high school.
Guest:I acted in high school.
Guest:I wanted to act professionally.
Guest:They were like dead set against it.
Marc:Did you go out for stuff in high school?
Guest:Absolutely not.
Marc:They wouldn't let you?
Guest:They wouldn't let me.
Marc:But then you could have.
Guest:Yeah, you know, I had like producers and stuff give my parents their cards at my school plays and things.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they were like, no.
Guest:And I was pretty devastated.
Guest:I thought they were ruining my life.
Marc:Oh, yeah, they ruined your life.
Marc:You could have been one of those weird child stars that kind of like everyone looks at in a bizarre way at this point.
Guest:Well, look.
Marc:Oh, that's what happened to her.
Marc:She was so cute in that thing.
Marc:Remember when she was seven?
Marc:Remember when she was 12?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Boy, you dodged a bullet on that one.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:I agree completely.
Guest:But at the time, I thought that they were like actively trying to ruin my life.
Marc:Okay, so the big fight at the Kazan household was like, why can't I go to conservatory?
Guest:And then I applied to regular school and learned how to think.
Marc:Where'd you go?
Guest:Yale.
Marc:You went to Yale and you didn't study acting?
Guest:Well, there's a misperception of the acting school at Yale that's really famous as graduate.
Guest:So I did undergrad theater like I was doubled with English and theater and did a bunch of plays there, which was a good chunk of my education.
Guest:But, you know, I studied other stuff.
Marc:Yeah, what did you measure in English?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:English and theater.
Guest:And I, like, took a bunch of writing classes.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:And then also, you know, the stuff that I remember, the stuff that I think, like, I should have done more of that is the stuff that I had to do for my requirements.
Marc:Like?
Guest:Like bioethics.
Guest:Seriously.
Guest:Because I remember that stuff way more than I remember, like...
Guest:I mean, like, you know, I remember.
Marc:Chaucer.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Marc:Well, yeah, sure.
Marc:Because their bioethics, you know, you're weighing like there, you know, there's like, is this right or is this wrong?
Marc:This is the scenario sort of like it sort of resonates with you because it's challenges you morally.
Guest:Yeah, totally.
Guest:And also it's a part of my brain I'd never used before.
Marc:You never weighed out right and wrong before?
Guest:Yes, I lived a completely amoral existence until then.
Marc:That's what did it?
Marc:The bioethics class?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Thank God for bioethics.
Guest:Set me straight.
Marc:Boy, I was heading down a bad road.
Marc:Just didn't know the difference.
Marc:So, all right, well, you know, there's still time for that.
Marc:You know, you can sort of brush up on that stuff on your own.
Guest:I think about it.
Guest:I think about going back to school.
Marc:You do, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm 55.
Marc:No, that whole back to school thing has faded into the past.
Guest:I think about it like a pipe dream.
Marc:I tried it once in my 30s.
Marc:I was living in New York.
Marc:And I can't remember.
Marc:It must have been in my mid-30s.
Marc:And I'm like, I'm going to take a class at the new school.
Marc:I'm going to take a philosophy class.
Marc:And I was just smoking a lot of pot.
Marc:And I don't know what I was thinking.
Marc:But it was hard.
Marc:And the teacher didn't like me.
Marc:And I became a smart ass.
Marc:And I didn't do my homework.
Marc:It was exactly like I was in college.
Marc:Like nothing had changed.
Marc:There was no kind of like, I'm grown up now.
Marc:I can handle it.
Marc:It was ridiculous.
Guest:I really struggled in my philosophy classes in school.
Marc:Well, you wanted just to be like, are we going to talk?
Marc:And it's like, it's not that.
Marc:You got to learn the language and some of them are more logic oriented.
Guest:It was just so much more like math than anything I could have expected.
Guest:Yeah, I hated it.
Marc:I took a class in college called symbolic logic and I don't know what the fuck it was about.
Marc:I have no idea.
Guest:Where did you go to school?
Marc:Boston University.
Marc:It's a good school.
Marc:I guess, you know, I was English major.
Marc:You know, it enabled me to do what I wanted to do and then wrangle a major together.
Guest:That's exactly what I did.
Guest:And I really, there's a huge part of me that's like, I wish that I was still in the mindset of trying to get straight A's, you know?
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:That's a good mindset to be in.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I was still wanting to impress my teachers, to take classes I'd be good at.
Guest:And then now I'm like, oh, what a waste of time.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, in terms of, yeah, in the big picture, what does it matter if my teachers liked me?
Wow.
Marc:Well, I guess that's true.
Marc:But if you were getting straight A's, you were engaging with the material on some level.
Marc:Maybe it benefited you in ways you don't quite appreciate because, you know, it's somehow you're down on yourself for not taking more challenging, difficult, or seemingly uninteresting classes.
Guest:You're absolutely right.
Guest:It's just one more way of me trying to be an A student.
Guest:Yes, absolutely.
Marc:If only I would have, you know.
Guest:Oh, you're right.
Marc:To this day, I don't think I can write a good paper.
Hmm.
Marc:I can write.
Marc:I've written books.
Marc:But if you were to tell me to write a term paper on something, I just could not.
Marc:I don't know why I couldn't wrap my brain around it.
Marc:It usually ended up like 10 pages of opening paragraphs.
Marc:I just couldn't focus in and break it down.
Guest:My philosophy professors were like, you do this thing in your philosophy papers where you like try to make a surprise ending.
Guest:No surprise ending.
Guest:Lay out what you're going to say, then say it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So after Yale, you've gotten your liberal arts education.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And your parents are happy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you're like, okay, now I'm going to do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So four years of school decided, you know, made me think I wanted more school.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so I applied to graduate school.
Marc:At Yale?
Guest:At Yale.
Guest:And I got told, come back next year after you've like had a little life experience.
Marc:For the theater program.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so I thought, okay, I'm going to take a year in New York and then I'll apply again and I'll go back to school.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I got to New York and I had a really wild year.
Guest:Good wild?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also bad wild.
Guest:And then at the end of it, I didn't want to go back.
Guest:And I started having panic attacks.
Guest:And I had to call up the head of the program and be like, I'm having panic attacks.
Marc:The head of Yale?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And he was like, I don't think you want to come.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, I don't think I want to come either.
Guest:And then about a month later, I got my first job.
Marc:So this is the first time you live away from home.
Marc:And are you doing weird little plays?
Marc:Are you like wild good and wild bad?
Guest:I took a lot of acting classes.
Marc:With?
Guest:At a place called the Actors Center that doesn't exist anymore.
Marc:I never heard that one.
Marc:I've talked to a lot of actors about New York acting places and I never heard that one.
Guest:There's an actress named Mojan Marno who is on a show called The Blacklist.
Guest:And she was at Yale Drama when I was Yale undergrad.
Guest:And I saw her in a play and I thought she was really good.
Guest:And I wrote her and said, where did you study?
Guest:And she said, I studied at the Actors Center.
Guest:And so I applied there.
Guest:And I took like a year of class there.
Marc:Where was that?
Guest:It was in the mid-20s.
Guest:And the nice thing about that school is they hired a lot of people from graduate programs who are looking to make a little extra money on the side.
Guest:So I started with this teacher called Ron Van Leeu who teaches at Yale Drama.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you got it.
Marc:You got the Yale education.
Guest:I got a little bit of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And took mask class and clown class.
Marc:Oh, you did all that stuff.
Guest:Voice production, movement.
Guest:Yeah, it was really fun.
Marc:So it wasn't necessarily an industry-driven class, but it was not method.
Guest:No.
Marc:It was, you know, you did all the things.
Marc:I talked to your, are you guys married, you and Paul?
Guest:No, we're not married, but he's like my, whatever.
Marc:Yeah, no, I know, your partner and your other baby.
Marc:But I remember when I was talking to him, I said, because I didn't always talk to actors until I started sort of acting.
Marc:And I've always been curious about it since I was in college.
Marc:And I would see what the training was.
Marc:But I remember asking him, do you ever do animal work?
Marc:And he was like, I do.
Guest:He does.
Guest:He says hi, by the way.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:That was great.
Marc:Yeah, I was so happy that he was honest about it.
Marc:Copping to animal work is not a regular thing you have to do in conversation.
Guest:Oh, for sure.
Guest:But we both have.
Marc:Well, okay, so masks and clowning.
Guest:Yeah, which was great and also really put me out of my comfort zone.
Marc:What is mask work, really?
Guest:Well, it's like the idea of putting on an archetype and then letting that archetype, like, inform what your body is.
Marc:Like Comedia dell'arte kind of stuff?
Marc:Yeah, sort of.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So, like, these Balinese masks that this mask teacher named Pear Bra works with.
Guest:And I learned a ton.
Guest:And then I also, like, did a lot of, like, weird kind of jobs.
Guest:Drank a lot and...
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Got messy?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Had what?
Marc:A lot of what?
Guest:A lot of sex.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And, like, learned how to take care of myself.
Guest:Like, I remember one- By doing those two things?
Guest:No.
Guest:I remember waking up one morning and, like, I was subletting this apartment that had radiator heat and, you know, you can't control it, so, like-
Guest:was really really hot and dry when i woke up and i went to the fridge and the only cold thing was a beer and i opened it and drank it and then i was like standing there in my kitchen like this is probably not good yeah yeah first thing yeah oh you know i was 22 yeah it's okay to do it then yeah yeah that's the time you should learn that lesson yeah as opposed to make a life out of it
Marc:Good for you.
Marc:You went the right way.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:Those heaters were the worst.
Marc:They were the worst.
Marc:And they'd have the knob on there.
Marc:Is this even doing anything?
Marc:And then someone goes, no, the whole system's connected to one thing.
Marc:Fuck.
Guest:And you're sleeping with all the windows open to try to regulate the heat in the middle of the winter.
Marc:And the hissing, the fucking hissing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then you couldn't touch them.
Guest:I didn't know how to do anything.
Guest:Like my laundry was never done.
Marc:So you were a pile person?
Guest:Not just a pile person, but like I'd run out of underwear and then I would just like go without underwear for like a week.
Guest:Like it was just like really, really a lot of learning.
Guest:Because I had never like, I had just never like lived like an adult.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like, you know.
Marc:Yeah, I felt that when I got out of school.
Marc:I didn't know how to rent an apartment or, you know, any of that.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:It's the worst.
Guest:Just, like, loosed.
Guest:And, like, not having any money, but also, like, you know, I grew up in upper middle class family.
Guest:It wasn't like there was no safety net, but, like, you also are like, okay, I need to learn how to, like, function and make a budget.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you know, you're paying your own rent for the first time, and how do I do that?
Marc:And drink.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, drink, that wasn't a problem because I was a girl, so I drank for free.
Marc:Right.
Guest:For like a year.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or like for three years, I drank for free.
Guest:And then I got a boyfriend, and then, you know, I got older, and I don't drink for free anymore.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And not as much.
Guest:And not as much, thank God.
Guest:I moved out of the East Village.
Guest:That helped me.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I spent time there.
Marc:So, okay, so masks, clowns,
Guest:Yeah, my clown teacher was named Jane Anderson, and she was great, and I really struggled with the clown stuff.
Guest:It was really, really hard for me.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Too broad?
Guest:No, I think I was trying to control other people's perception of me.
Guest:And I think I didn't like to, you have to like be willing to expose the most foolish part of yourself.
Guest:And I think I didn't want that exposed at 22.
Marc:And you couldn't quite frame that into your way of thinking of like, you know, I can get A's as a clown.
Yeah.
Guest:I think I was trying to get A's as a clown and trying to do that without being honest.
Marc:So you think clown work is a very honest form?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I think it's super, super honest.
Guest:And I really worked on it.
Guest:I used to do my dishes with my nose on.
Oh.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To see what it did to my body.
Marc:Did you eventually nail it or what?
Guest:I think I got better.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then what was the practical stuff that you learned?
Guest:Like scene study class and stuff like that.
Guest:That was what I took with Ron and that was really great.
Guest:And again, you know, actually, I don't know if you took a lot of acting class or not, but what I have found is that if the teacher is really good and I really want to impress them, I'm not going to learn a lot by doing scenes in class, that I learn much more from watching other people do scenes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I learned a ton in the scene work that I did, but I kind of learned it like six months after the fact.
Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then getting to observe like an actor on stage and what you think is like getting in their way and then what the teacher identifies as like.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And and then it helps you see yourself and something shifts in yourself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I feel like my need to please is high that or it was a decade ago that it took it took me watching to really learn something.
Marc:Right.
Marc:No, that makes sense.
Marc:But it seems like being present and listening is kind of key.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That one.
Marc:But it's tricky.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because to get to a place where you're not just thinking about, okay, here comes my... I'm about to say what I'm going to say.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Here it comes.
Marc:Look at that other person acting.
Marc:She's good.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Oh, hi.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Then you kind of...
Marc:yeah or or or like the thing of like doing all your homework and then trying to show that you did all your homework yeah i'm not good at homework with anything i'm a sort of like last minute he kind of load up my head kind of person right and uh sometimes that works but like i think making choices is the trick right in a lot of ways like i mean i can i do prepare but like backstory doesn't help me does it help you
Guest:Uh, sometimes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I did a play in college, and the student director I worked with was, like, all about backstory, and she made us, like, write these elaborate autobiographies.
Guest:And actually, like, we were doing The Crucible, and, like, it's all...
Guest:Everything that we invented took us further away from the play.
Marc:I would think so.
Guest:I think that character autobiography or whatever is only helpful if it helps you engage with what's actually there.
Marc:Well, that's the thing.
Marc:That's the one thing that I gleaned and I was judgmental of David Mamet's approach early on.
Marc:but but i think it is on the page and i and i think that if you trust the writers that you're going to find your way to that person yeah i do i agree with you so you start doing theater yeah so i got you did a lot of theater i did a lot of theater i've done like a dozen plays like big plays yeah from like when you were like just what when did you first start doing that
Guest:I was 22, about to turn 23 when I did my first play in New York.
Guest:I did The Prime of Miss Jean Brody with Cynthia Nixon at The New Group off Broadway.
Marc:The New Group.
Marc:Yeah, I remember that.
Marc:And you were 22.
Guest:I turned 23 during that production.
Marc:And now, did you know Cynthia?
Guest:I had never met her until my callback for that.
Marc:And how was that?
Marc:Was she great?
Guest:She was great.
Guest:I will say, like, you know, in terms of that, like, Hollywood royalty, like, you have it easy kind of thing.
Guest:Like, I was so eager to dispel that.
Guest:Like, I think that's part of the reason that I worked so hard at the beginning is that I really wanted people to never be able to say that about me.
Marc:You never thought of changing your name?
No.
Guest:No, I like my name.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:My name's my name.
Marc:Yeah, I get it.
Marc:Some people change them, though.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:No, that's a lie.
Guest:I did think about it.
Guest:I just didn't think about it for very long.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Anyways, I memorized the entire play for the callback because I thought they might throw something else at me, and they did.
Guest:And I was already off book.
Guest:So I gave myself a big leg up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I got that part, I think,
Guest:Partially because I was that prepared.
Guest:And Cynthia was great and taught me a ton.
Guest:And she was also didn't hold my hand in the least.
Guest:And that was also really good.
Marc:And you were the two major characters.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Just taught by being with her or is she actually... No, just by being with her.
Guest:And then actually there were this guy named Richie Koster, an actor named Matt Rausch, and an actor named John Pinkout, and they were all in that play with me.
Guest:And they really took care of me and were great, gave me great feedback.
Guest:Scott Elliott, who directed it, taught me a ton and was amazing.
Guest:And I just kept my ears open.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's like, because it must have been just electrifying to be on a real stage with real grownups.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's heavy, man.
Marc:Theater is like intense.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, like, I don't know if you feel this way, but I feel like the older I've gotten, the more justification I have for confidence and the less confident I am.
Guest:Like the amount of confidence I had at 22, 23 was so much bigger than my ability.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And and I think like if I hadn't had that confidence, I wouldn't have gotten through those first years where everything is so hard and you're getting rejected all the time.
Guest:But like it is like a form of self delusion.
Marc:Fake it till you make it.
Marc:For sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, I and there's a swagger to it.
Marc:I mean, I think most most people that get into this racket are like, you know, sensitive, relatively insecure people that, you know, and you're acting confident.
Marc:I mean, it's like you have to you have to delude yourself in this business.
Marc:You know, and it can go either way.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And like, you know, and if you're too far gone in the delusion, you don't know when it's over.
Marc:And I think it probably goes the same where you don't know if like sometimes you, you know, how well you're doing.
Marc:I, you know, I find that I'm a little better at that.
Marc:I'm a little more, I can say like, well, that's good.
Marc:Or there are some, like you do a take and they're like, all right, we got it.
Marc:And you're like, I don't know if they did.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If they saw something, I'm not going to write them on it.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know, though.
Guest:Like, I just did this Coen Brothers movie that... Oh, The Ballad of... Buster Scruggs.
Marc:You haven't seen it yet.
Marc:I want to see it, but it's not on yet.
Guest:It's really... I think the movie's wonderful.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:But... I love them.
Guest:They're... Oh, my God.
Guest:They're the greatest.
Guest:They're the greatest.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But there's like... There are two scenes in it that on the day I was super unhappy with.
Guest:And one of them, I think, actually turned out really good.
Guest:And the other one, I think, is not my strongest work.
Guest:And, like, you know, on the day on both of them, I felt like I walked away being like, oh, I could have done better that day.
Marc:But isn't that that moment, though, where, you know, you have to trust the director on some level?
Guest:You do.
Guest:Well, you do when it's, like, the Coen brothers.
Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But there is that moment where you're like, if you felt disconnected or whatever the fuck it was that you didn't feel good about, you're going to see it again.
Marc:For sure.
Marc:And then you just sort of, and the problem with that is if you can't let it go and people come up to you and go, hey, that was really great.
Marc:You're like, hey, that wasn't quite.
Marc:I know.
Guest:Well, you know, in the theater you do that to the umpteenth degree because you're doing it every single night.
Guest:You're doing the same thing every single night for months on end.
Guest:And you start to really feel like there's a massive difference between your good nights and your bad nights.
Guest:And actually the difference is millimeters.
Marc:And some of it can be just your relationship with the audience.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Or on a night where the theater is really cold and they react differently.
Marc:Or Sunday matinee when there's only half a house.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Or Friday when they're drunk.
Marc:Believe me, as a comic, I know about the second show thing.
Guest:Oh, it's so rough.
Marc:Because you can hear it before you go on.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:So every night before I go on stage when I'm doing a play, I stand in the wings and listen to the noise of the audience because you can tell.
Marc:You know what they're going to be like.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You can.
Marc:No doubt.
Marc:If you spend enough of your life on stage and you just sit there and if it's sort of like, oh, no.
Marc:The worst.
Marc:And sometimes you can be like, that guy's going to be a problem.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That one guy.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Guest:Oh, God.
Marc:You just know you're up against a diminished attention span.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:And just like chatter.
Guest:What's the best night as a stand-up comic?
Marc:Thursday.
Guest:That's the best night in the theater.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Thursday nights are the best nights in the theater.
Marc:Sunday is good if you happen to be working on Sunday, just if you want to fucking, you know, work, you know, work shit out.
Marc:But I have found that Saturday's first show are oddly the worst because I think everyone's landed in their life.
Marc:They've had a day at home and I don't know what their expectations are or why their energy is weird, but it's always sort of like, you know, we, you know, we only get out once a week.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And you know, how am I not going to disappoint them?
Guest:Wednesday matinees and Friday and Saturday nights I think are the worst nights in the theater.
Guest:Some people say Tuesday nights because it's the first night back from the day off.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, in your mind when you were doing theater, were you like, this is what I'm going to be?
Marc:I'm going to be one of these theater people?
Guest:Honestly, at the beginning, I just wanted to work.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and like people ask, I mean, they must do this to you, too.
Guest:People ask me, like journalists will be like, like, how did you like plan out your career?
Marc:And I'm like, oh, give me a break.
Marc:I'm lucky to have one.
Guest:Yeah, for real.
Guest:And also, like, I'm also like...
Guest:it could have gone the other way so easily in terms of what work I got.
Guest:Like I auditioned for every CW show, every ABC family show.
Guest:I just didn't get those jobs.
Marc:And it's weird.
Marc:I would imagine that in your twenties you were somebody who could have played teenager.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you probably went out a lot for that.
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Marc:Did you get those?
Guest:Sometimes, but like always like a teenager with a problem.
Marc:You're the troubled teen.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, like, I just never got the, like, you know, I don't know, like, I could not pretend to be a different person than I was.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or kind of thing.
Guest:Like, you can't fool the world about your, like, essential essence, right?
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah, I think that's probably true.
Marc:Eventually they'll come out.
Guest:Well, being on the other side of the table, I've written four plays and had them produced.
Guest:And when you're sitting on the casting side and someone comes in, you can smell.
Guest:Sometimes it's like, oh, don't even bother auditioning.
Guest:You're not the right animal.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The wrong animal came in the room and it's just the wrong animal for the part and it's not your fault and you can be the best actor in the world and it can still be wrong.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:And that sort of like helped me start to, you know, be a little kinder to myself after it didn't go well on something.
Marc:Change your expectations.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:There was some Americana show on ABC or CBS or something that I went in for at 23.
Guest:And the casting director, I walked in the room.
Guest:She was like, oh, honey, this isn't your part.
Guest:And I was like, oh, God.
Guest:And I drove all the way out to Burbank and learned 20 pages of lines or whatever.
Marc:I don't know how you guys do it.
Guest:It's a weird life.
Marc:Because I was always stand up and anytime I'd go in, just sitting outside of the room, like this ain't for me.
Marc:Like it took me full, like I had an arch, however I landed in my body, like I know my wheelhouse, you know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, I just got a little part in a movie, and it's in Boston.
Marc:And I wrote to the, I told my managers, I'm like, if they want a Boston accent, it'll be ridiculous.
Marc:So let's get that out of the way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I can't do this.
Marc:I'm not going to sit there like, pack, what?
Marc:It's not going to happen.
Marc:I mean, oddly, if you just plant me in the city long enough, I'll talk like whoever I'm around.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:But I couldn't manufacture it.
Marc:And thank God they're like, no, I don't care.
Marc:And I'm like, perfect.
Marc:Great.
Marc:I'll do it.
Marc:So I can just be me.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Great.
Marc:I'm good.
Marc:I've gotten better at that.
Guest:I also just like would go.
Guest:I just like, you know, I just treated everything like it was Chekhov.
Guest:I think a little bit like there is this.
Marc:You did the seagull?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know what that means.
Marc:So explain that to.
Guest:So, I mean, like, I took every audition really seriously.
Guest:Like, there was this sitcom called Kath and Kim.
Guest:That was an Australian sitcom.
Guest:And they were going to make an American version of it.
Guest:And they were like, the breakdown was like, she's disgusting.
Guest:She, like, is, like, fat and sloppy and all this stuff.
Guest:Like, that was the breakdown.
Guest:I was like, oh, okay.
Guest:So, I, like, put on, like, clothes that didn't fit and, like...
Guest:like didn't wear makeup and I walked in and it was like 20 girls all wearing cute blue jeans and a cute top and like wearing a lot of makeup and I was like oh right like they don't actually and then they cast like Salma Blair and I was like okay right I just misunderstood the assignment again
Guest:like i'll never forget i auditioned for this horror movie it was about a girl being eaten from the inside out by a demon yeah and like it describes her face like peeling off and like they they my feedback from my callback was can she come in wearing a cute top and more makeup okay okay always misunderstanding
Marc:But did you, how'd you handle the peeling back in it?
Guest:I said, I'm not coming back in if that's my feedback, which I didn't do very often, but I was really mad at them.
Guest:I was really mad that like.
Marc:Cause you put that work in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Cause I like put a lot of like demonic possession work in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they didn't care.
Marc:They didn't care.
Guest:They just wanted to see my tits.
Marc:Oh no.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's the way it goes in horror movies.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Well, I, it seems like you've transcended that.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Marc:Now, when you say you've written plays, you've written four plays over the years.
Marc:Now, did you work in a collective of any kind?
Marc:Were you part of a playwrights group or anything, or you just did them?
Guest:No.
Guest:So I started my first play when I was at school in a playwriting class with this writer called Donald Margulies, great playwright.
Guest:And I started this play in that class.
Guest:And then when I was in that first couple years in New York, and I was drinking too much and sleeping with too many people,
Guest:I thought, okay, I'm going to destroy myself if I just sit around waiting for acting jobs.
Guest:I'll just become a monster.
Guest:So I picked up that play again, and I finished it, and I gave it to my agent.
Guest:A lit agent in my agency agreed to represent me, and that play ended up being produced at the Humana Festival.
Guest:What was it called?
Guest:It was called Absalom.
Guest:And then I've written three more plays since, and I've had them...
Guest:all produced which was a mixed bag um but i learned a ton so you can get them all at french's like in that little yeah in the little books yeah you can you can get them all in the little books that's exciting it is exciting that's kind of one of the nice parts about it as an actor you know those little books yeah and you like to see your name on one of those little books it's pretty nice yeah yeah
Guest:That part's nice.
Marc:Isn't that the name of the publishing company?
Marc:Is it French's?
Guest:Samuel French is one of them.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Mine are DPS, Dramatic Publishing Services or something.
Marc:Same little book though?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Oh, a little script book.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You get to pick out the color for the- You do?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Oh, that's the victory.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So anytime it gets produced anywhere, they give you a few cents?
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I never belonged to a collective.
Guest:It's just something I've done to try to keep my brain alive.
Yeah.
Marc:And it seems like you found most of your success, fortunately, I think probably in retrospect in film.
Marc:I mean, even though you tried for all these TV shows, the standard kind of like three camera, you know, jokies or whatever they are.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And like, I think that that can somehow be sort of limiting.
Marc:And again, you might have dodged a bullet by not being a recurring on a eight year sitcom.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:I mean, totally.
Guest:I will say that it seems like now all the bets are off in terms of career trajectory.
Marc:In terms of knowing how it's going to go or what do you mean?
Guest:I mean, in terms of what a show means or what people can do a web series and it launches them.
Marc:I think it's really great.
Guest:There's something more democratic about what's happening now than what was happening 10 years ago.
Marc:And also it's so fragmented that great shows can be on that no one's ever heard of.
Marc:totally that's the downside of the democratization is that like you know what's that on you know yeah i don't know what you're talking about no it's genius what i guess i don't have enough time i don't i don't i don't watch nearly enough of what is out there but that's okay but you have nice parts like i've seen like in the olive kitteridge thing that was great you know and you get to work with her yeah well yeah she's like just like she's something huh fran's the best
Marc:She's so in it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I met her briefly and she was so nice to me, but she was sort of like, I know you.
Marc:And I'm like, wow, that's enough.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:That's so exciting that you know me.
Guest:I mean, she's sort of my hero.
Guest:I mean, more than sort of.
Guest:And yeah, so getting to work with her on that was kind of like a career.
Marc:She's your hero in the sense of how she handles herself as an actress or...
Guest:Yeah, like an acting hero.
Guest:Like, I don't like the word idol, but like that, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, there are so many women of her generation and just older than her that I admire and look up to, like Jane Fonda and, you know...
Guest:Sally Field and all these incredible generation of actresses to see Spacek.
Marc:I just talked to her.
Guest:You did?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, how was that?
Marc:Great.
Marc:She's so great.
Marc:She's a very generous, nice, kind, thoughtful person that kind of lives a life, a private life and does this amazing work.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's amazing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Profound.
Guest:But Fran also seems like
Guest:Like totally one of a kind, ballsy person.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:And she's from the New York theater scene.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:She is.
Marc:And you work with her husband on the Coen Brothers movie.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How do those guys direct?
Guest:Um, well.
Marc:No, but I mean, like, what's the relationship with the actor?
Guest:You know, I didn't have a lot of contact with them before we shot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I auditioned for them twice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For that part.
Guest:And I didn't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:30 years for the most part and so every person that you're meeting every collaborator sort of is like meeting a part of their brain yeah so like my work with mary zo freeze the costume designer gave me as much information as they did probably personally and then they're very um unassuming and relaxed yeah yeah
Guest:Um, they, uh, definitely hear things in a really precise way.
Guest:Like they're hearing the music of their film and their head very specifically and precisely.
Guest:And it's in the writing very specifically and precisely.
Guest:If you ever read one of their scripts, they're written the way you see the movie, like with camera angles and you can really see the movie on the page.
Guest:Um, and they also give you the storyboards on your sides in the morning.
Guest:So you can see like what the, how it's situated.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Um,
Guest:So there's just like a ton of information there that's unspoken.
Marc:Precise.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Not much wiggle room.
Guest:There's wiggle room performance wise.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And they love character actors.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Isn't that nice?
Marc:It's great.
Marc:Tim Blake Nelson.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I can't wait to see the movie.
Marc:You know, it's weird because did you see The Hail Caesar?
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:I thought that was one of the greatest Coen Brothers movies.
Marc:And everyone was sort of like, nah.
Marc:And I'm like, no.
Marc:Watch it again.
Marc:Watch it again.
Guest:I think sometimes when people are consistently great, and also they're consistently great in a different way every time.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You got to watch them twice.
Guest:I feel like people don't always appreciate it because they take it for granted or something.
Marc:Or they miss it.
Marc:It took me years to really process the big Lebowski.
Marc:And even something like Burn After Reading, I had to watch that twice.
Guest:Brad Pitt is so good in that movie.
Marc:So good.
Guest:He's so good in it.
Marc:When he really wants to act, he can really do it.
Marc:Get into a character.
Guest:He's having a great time.
Marc:Oh, it's hilarious.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:With his headphones.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I re-watched all their movies before I went off to make it.
Marc:You are studious.
Marc:But I also, like, that's fun.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Of course it is.
Marc:I'm not judging it.
Guest:No.
Guest:What I'm saying is, like, I did it because, yes, it's studious.
Guest:But also, like, when am I ever going to get to be in a Coen Brothers movie again?
Marc:Right.
Guest:So I might as well watch them all before I go do it so I can really take it in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I really appreciate it.
Marc:And I do think that even though they're all different, there is a way that they sort of orchestrate things.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, this one's very tonally tricky.
Guest:Like every chapter of it has a slightly different tone.
Guest:And so I think part of my feeling was like, I want to like watch a bunch of their movies so I can get a sense of like the range of tones.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I can only figure out where I live.
Marc:Oh, great.
Marc:And it worked.
Marc:Paid off?
Guest:I guess.
Marc:I got to watch it.
Marc:But you've done a lot of movies in small part.
Marc:You like really kind of like slowly got more attention in movies.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Marc:I guess that's the way it works, right?
Guest:I think so.
Marc:And like I'm trying to remember it's complicated.
Marc:I know that I saw it, but you got some attention.
Marc:Were you the daughter?
Guest:Yeah, I was one of the daughters.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you sort of got a little attention for that movie.
Marc:Was that the first time or when was the first time?
Guest:I did this.
Guest:So my first like bigger part in the movie, I did a part in Revolutionary Road, the Sam Mendes movie.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Was that with Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet?
Marc:And was that the one with Michael Shannon?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I just saw him last night.
Guest:You did?
Marc:I saw him walking down the sunset, and I was on the way to the comedy store, and I pulled over out of my window.
Marc:I'm like, Michael Shannon.
Marc:He's like, what?
Marc:It's Mark Mary.
Marc:He's like, oh, what's up?
Marc:Because he'd been on the show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm going to do comedy.
Marc:And then he came up.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Marc:I didn't even ask him.
Guest:He's a nice guy.
Marc:He's intense.
Marc:He's a very nice guy.
Marc:He's kind of an amazing actor.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:So, like, I'm trying to remember, you were a daughter in that?
Guest:No, I played his secretary that he has an affair with, DiCaprio.
Marc:Oh, right, right, right.
Guest:And that was, like, a big part and, like, a big job, you know, like a kind of Tony movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was scared shitless.
Guest:I was so frightened.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that was Leonardo.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Really kind to me.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's sweet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was really kind to me.
Guest:I was really, really green and really scared.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:But again, I loved that part.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's a kind of fool, you know, which is always fun to play.
Guest:Kind of like Shelley Winters in A Place in the Sun or something.
Guest:Someone a little fragile, vulnerable, needy.
Guest:Yeah, a little bit.
Marc:Doesn't know what they're getting into.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And Richard Yates, who wrote the book, doesn't have a lot of compassion for her, I think, on the page.
Guest:So I was trying to bring a little compassion to her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that was sort of like the first thing that let me, you know, get into more rooms and be seen for more different things.
Guest:And then I don't know.
Guest:I don't know what the next like turning point would be, but...
Guest:I wrote a movie that Paul and I made together called Ruby Sparks.
Guest:And that was that Dayton Ferris, who directed Little Miss Sunshine, directed that.
Guest:And that was sort of like a new chapter for me.
Marc:In terms of being the writer and having that.
Guest:Yeah, like stepping into a different.
Guest:And also like taking charge of my career in a different way.
Guest:Like being like I'm going to.
Marc:Be a creator.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah, no, it's a good move.
Marc:And I think everyone that, you know, certainly a lot of people listen to this show and the nerd comedy world in general, The Big Sick was a big movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:For you.
Marc:It was like, you know, that's like a starring role all the way through.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you did a lot of independent movies, but there was a lot of juice around that movie.
Guest:Yeah, there was.
Guest:It was different.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was different because it was so true.
Marc:And, you know, I know Emily.
Marc:I know Camille.
Marc:But I know Emily, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was sort of interesting to see her fictionalized.
Marc:But I thought you were great in it.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:But you're not.
Marc:You weren't Emily.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You were, you know, doing that part.
Guest:I didn't try to do Emily.
Marc:Right.
Marc:No, of course not.
Marc:But did you have fun on that movie?
Guest:Yeah, I loved doing that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was really great.
Yeah.
Guest:You know, you're right.
Guest:I had done a lot of independent film and like, you know, to be totally honest, a lot of I don't know, like you never know how they're going to turn out.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Like it's always a crapshoot.
Guest:You're always like taking a gamble.
Guest:Like sometimes they work out well.
Guest:Sometimes they work out less well, but they rarely like hit a vein the way that movie did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, people saw that movie.
Guest:Amazon got behind it.
Guest:Like, critics loved it.
Guest:And that had never really happened to me before.
Guest:Like, I'd been involved in things that were successful, but it felt like, oh, it hit a little, like, zeitgeisty moment in a kind of way.
Marc:And I think independent films in general are all underdogs in a way.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That, you know, if one surfaces for whatever reason, it's usually like, we did it, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, but what I was going to say is, like, you can never tell on set, like, how something's going to go, right?
Guest:But we had a really good time making that movie.
Guest:And, like, walking away from making it, I was like, oh, well, if this movie doesn't go anywhere, that was still really great.
Guest:Like, I still had a really great time.
Guest:Like, Showalter runs a set in a really great way.
Guest:He's, like, really relaxed.
Guest:He seems really happy about everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:we can do it again if you want to but I thought that was pretty great and like something about the way that he said it would make me go like let's move on whereas normally I'd be like give me one more yeah yeah that's a good experience yeah it was good so let's talk about this new movie Paul Dano you and Paul Dano made this movie yeah we did
Marc:I watched it.
Guest:You did.
Marc:I liked it.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:It's a beautiful looking movie.
Marc:It is.
Marc:And it's a nicely acted and written movie.
Marc:My question after watching that movie, in terms of how many movies are made and why people make movies, why did you choose that material?
Guest:So Paul fell in love with it.
Guest:Paul fell in love with the book, which is a book by Richard Ford called Wildlife.
Guest:And he brought it to me and was like, do you think that this would make a good movie?
Guest:And I saw so much of him in it.
Guest:And he had been looking for something to direct.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, yeah, let's option it.
Guest:We'll hire a writer.
Guest:And then...
Guest:He sort of like dreamt on it for a while and was like, I want to take a stab at writing it.
Guest:And he wrote a draft and he gave it to me.
Guest:And I thought it was really bad.
Guest:And I was like, made a lot of notes.
Guest:And we got about five pages into the script of me giving him notes.
Guest:And we'd have been talking for like an hour.
Guest:And we don't really fight often.
Guest:We were like fighting.
Guest:And I was finally like...
Guest:yo, I think this will be better for our relationship if you just let me rewrite you because it will be faster and I can show you what I mean rather than telling you.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so I did.
Guest:And then we just started trading drafts back and forth.
Guest:So it started really with him, his attraction to the material.
Guest:Right.
Guest:which I think comes from a really personal place.
Guest:I think it speaks to some personal experiences he's had.
Guest:And then for me, it started as a puzzle for me.
Guest:The book is really... I think the book is a challenge in terms of adaptation.
Guest:It's really interior.
Guest:There isn't a lot... It's a lot of internal experience.
Marc:Yeah, because if you were actually to sort of tell the story of the movie, you'd be like, that's the movie?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So there was a lot of...
Guest:you know in the direction and in the acting to create that a bigger space than something that that is that interior that's exactly right and like writing it was like trying to make room for that space like paul keeps saying like the space between the lines is as important as the lions in this movie
Guest:And so it was like a puzzle for me.
Guest:And that was really fun.
Guest:And I'd never adapted anything before.
Guest:But then as I worked on it, I started to feel like really compelled by the character of Jeanette and the Carey Mulligan plays really felt like...
Guest:There but for the grace of God go I. She lives in a time where her choice is really conscribed.
Guest:She doesn't have a lot of room to express herself or find out who she is.
Guest:And so she starts making the only choices she can make.
Guest:And I was just super, super compelled by that.
Marc:Well, yeah, I thought that was, you know, obviously the centerpiece of the kind of emotional flux of the movie was her performance in that character.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, like, I found, because, you know, you're moving through this thing, and the cast is great, Jake Gyllenhaal.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:And who's the kid?
Marc:He was good.
Guest:His name is Ed Oxenbold.
Marc:I thought he was very good because he held his, not his emotion, but he held a lot in.
Marc:He was sort of a blank slate that you were reading into.
Marc:You didn't quite know, but you felt there was a lot going on under there.
Guest:Yeah, we felt that from, he was the last kid we saw and we just like totally fell in love with him.
Guest:He's Australian and he sent in a tape from Australia and we just fell in love with him and mostly for that, exactly that quality that you're talking about.
Guest:Like he's making a lot of choices.
Guest:He's got a lot going on, but it's all under the surface.
Marc:Yeah, and Bill Camp is one of these guys that you now see everywhere.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:It's weird, because I never knew who the fuck he was until that HBO movie.
Marc:Yeah, Night Of.
Marc:The series, Night Of.
Marc:Yeah, and I'm like, and now it's like, he's in everything.
Guest:I know.
Guest:He's been in the New York theater scene for a long time.
Guest:And is like a god of the New York theater scene.
Marc:So you knew him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Paul had done Love and Mercy with him.
Guest:He played Paul's dad in Love and Mercy.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So when we started casting it, Paul was like, I really think Bill would be right for this.
Guest:But you're right.
Guest:He's had one of these second act career.
Marc:Real character actor.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it is sort of, I just thought the way it was written, it was very good.
Marc:You know, because there is that space in the dialogue and especially for Carrie's part, you know, like when she starts to come unglued, you know, it's both moving and scary and completely sympathetic.
Guest:I'm glad you found it.
Marc:Because it's 1960 and you kind of realize the constraints.
Marc:But like, you know, in Jake's character, like, I don't know, it was also subtle, but yet, like, there's a turn at some point where you're like, this is, because in these kind of movies, like, because of the space you guys captured, it's Montana, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And like, you know, he shot the shit out of Montana.
Marc:I mean, it was like Terrence Malick stuff, right?
Guest:Oh, that's nice.
Marc:Like, just the space looked great.
Guest:Diego Garcia is our DP and he's amazing.
Marc:Yeah, it was great.
Marc:But you're kind of waiting for something major to happen and you realize that it's happening, but it's really an emotional thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, even, you know, when she drives him out there to look at that, you know, I don't think I'm spoiling anything.
Marc:Just to look at fire.
Marc:You're like, what the fuck?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, is mommy nuts or is mommy just like that?
Marc:Having grown up born in 1963 and having a mother who had other aspirations, who did not get to realize herself in probably the way she wanted that that sort of hit this trigger where you realize, is she being selfish?
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But is it neglect of the kid on some level?
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:But that was just the time, man.
Marc:And kids are a little more resilient than you think they are.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then when, you know, whatever happens with Jake after, you know, it ends, it's disturbing, but it's not, nothing breaks.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think that's exactly what we're aiming for.
Guest:The idea that a family can break apart without people breaking.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you're watching Carrie and you're like, oh God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I have a problem with the way it's described on Wikipedia.
Guest:Maybe you should... What is it described as?
Marc:It says the plot.
Marc:In 1960, a boy watches his parents' marriage fall apart after the three of them move to Montana and his mother falls in love with another man.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That is not.
Guest:That's not what happens.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:But I but the first paragraph of the book says something not dissimilar from that.
Guest:And I wonder whether they're just lifting it from the book.
Marc:Well, I understand it as a plot line.
Marc:The only problem with it is the falls in love part.
Marc:I agree.
Marc:And I thought that was kind of genius.
Marc:You guys did a lot, or Paul did, or I don't know how it was written, with the camera where you see the kid seeing something, but you don't know if you're going to see it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And there was one point where you didn't, but you could make your own assumptions.
Marc:And then there was another point where you did, and it was not quite as horrifying as it could be.
Marc:Because you're like, oh boy, what's that kid going to take in when he peers into the house?
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:And then it was just sort of like, no, okay.
Guest:Have you ever spent extended time in an editing room?
Marc:Yeah, a little bit, yeah.
Guest:I really love it.
Marc:That's where it all happens.
Guest:I learned so much.
Guest:So we helped produce this movie, and we both took the year off to edit the film.
Guest:So even though Paul's the director, I was there all the time, and I learned...
Guest:a fuck ton.
Guest:And honestly, like the writing process happened all over again, which I, it seemed impossible.
Guest:We worked on this for three years.
Guest:It seemed impossible that there was that much work still to do.
Guest:And there was, and that was one of the things of like, how long do you hold on this thing?
Guest:How long is too long?
Guest:Like, it's a slow paced movie.
Guest:Like, but like, is the pace too slow?
Guest:And then also like building performance, like obviously it's, it's all of these like genius actors, right?
Guest:But you're also responsible for crafting the storytelling of it.
Marc:Yeah, you're the people that when you do an independent movie and walk away from it going like, I don't know what that's going to do, you're the guys doing it.
Guest:Yeah, it's fascinating.
Guest:It made me be like, oh, God, I should have been a film editor.
Guest:It seems like the best job.
Marc:Yeah, because if you have the footage, you really have a whole other world.
Marc:You have a whole new thing to explore.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's like you've written books.
Guest:When you're writing prose, suddenly there's no template.
Guest:When you're writing a player or a script, there's a template.
Guest:And it sort of felt like that.
Guest:We could make anything.
Marc:Yeah, we don't have to.
Marc:He doesn't have to do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We can take that part all together.
Guest:Completely.
Guest:We can start it in a completely different way.
Guest:There are infinite numbers of movies you can make out of this footage.
Marc:Well, I thought that the way you guys build it is pretty great.
Marc:Because there's something about as beautiful as Montana is and the way that was all shot.
Marc:There's a menace to the isolation that functions right alongside of the beauty.
Marc:you're saying all the right things that you know that the space that's there just because of like you have these humans ruminating or living in the world within themselves yeah and that you know when it comes out you know it that you're sort of like it's so sparse that you're like it matters so much right yeah
Marc:But I just, I thought it was great.
Marc:And before I knew it was a book, you know, like yesterday my producer said, well, it was a book.
Marc:And I'm like, I could not understand why they would just pull this story out of nowhere.
Marc:It seems so bizarre that the two of them would sit down and write this.
Marc:And he's like, it's a book.
Marc:I'm like, oh, okay.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, that would be bizarre if that was like the burning story that we had to tell.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I was like, okay, okay, I get it now.
Marc:And you guys decided pretty early on that you weren't going to act in it.
Guest:Yeah, immediately.
Guest:That was never on the table.
Guest:Partially because, honestly, when we first started writing it, we were like 27, 28.
Guest:And we were just too young.
Guest:And we were thinking about actors who were really more like the age of our parents because we were still thinking of them as the parents.
Guest:And by the time we were really going to make the movie, we were like, oh, they're our age, basically, like these characters.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Guest:I mean, you know, I think...
Guest:I think that there's something about the mystery of your parents, which speaks to everyone.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:That's true.
Guest:Everyone's parents are a mystery to them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:A line that I quote a lot from Michael Clayton is when Sidney Pollack says, people are fucking incomprehensible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, like, I really... Well, we've had some, like, critical response.
Guest:Like, even... We've had very... Critics have been very kind to this film.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And even within that context, we've had reviews where it said, oh, this unsympathetic woman, unsympathetic character.
Guest:And I feel like you're lying to yourself about how people are if you think that good people don't behave this way.
Guest:Like, people go through shit...
Guest:Especially that generation.
Marc:They were young.
Marc:They were kids.
Guest:Completely.
Guest:I think about it all the time.
Guest:My grandmother was 22, 21 when she had her first kid.
Marc:My mom was 22.
Guest:If I had had a child at 21, that child would be so messed up right now.
Marc:My mother's barely together now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, and also like the alcoholism and I mean, there's like a whole thing in that.
Marc:You didn't overplay that either.
Guest:No.
Guest:Well, that would have colored the story.
Marc:Because like it was weird when, you know, there was a couple of like amazing choices like in that scene.
Marc:I don't want to spoil anything, but.
Marc:You know, when Jake's character does what he does in anger that, you know, in Bill Camp's character, that the fact that he was with the woman who worked at the place, it was like, oh, this is just like, you know, this is just men.
Guest:I'm so glad you picked up on that.
Guest:Well, you know, we don't have a close up shot of of her.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, she's in a wide.
Guest:And it was like a little detail where we were like, well, I guess we'll see whether people pick up on this or not.
Marc:Could have been any woman.
Marc:I mean, you have the moment where you're like, oh, is he married?
Marc:And then you're like, no, that's the fucking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That guy's just that guy.
Guest:Bill Camp said this wonderful thing in the Q&A about that character.
Guest:He plays this like really like loche character and he was who's been through the war and he's got like a limp and someone asked him about like, what's this guy's motivation?
Guest:And he was like, he's been in a lot of pain for a really long time and he wants to have pleasure.
Guest:like he's just seeking pleasure and i was like oh damn it's so good it's true and it's like i never would have thought of it and it's right there on the page it's not like he's i mean it's a good example of character backstory yeah like he didn't invent that it's right there that but that's the core of it that's sort of as an actor like what what is what is it the word i want the motivation yeah totally
Marc:You know, that's the core of it.
Guest:Yeah, completely.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know.
Guest:It was really fun.
Guest:You know, we've acted together a bunch of times, Paul and I. We met doing a play together, and we did this movie called Meek's Cutoff together.
Guest:We did the movie that I wrote together.
Guest:And it was really hard acting together, and I don't think we'll do it again.
Guest:But writing together was really nice.
Marc:Well, good.
Marc:You did a great job.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:Nice talking to you.
Guest:Nice talking to you.
Marc:The movie is Wildlife.
Marc:That was Zoe Kazan.
Marc:She co-wrote it with Paul Dano, and it's in playing in select theaters now.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Dig it.
Marc:Boomer lives.
you