Episode 959 - Busy Philipps
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:WTF.
Marc:Did I just, did I slur that?
Marc:WTF.
Marc:WTF.
Marc:WTF.
Marc:This is it.
Marc:This is the show.
Marc:Thank you for being here.
Marc:I'm welcoming probably a few new folks coming in today to listen to my guest, Busy Phillips.
Marc:Who's amazing.
Marc:I truly I've always I've always loved her really, you know, in an appropriate way.
Marc:But I've always liked her on screen.
Marc:I always had a sense that maybe I knew what she'd be like.
Marc:And so when I finally got to talk to her, she was even better than I thought.
Marc:That is always the case.
Marc:What does better mean?
Marc:How about this?
Marc:How about I liked her more than I did already?
Marc:we had a very nice chat me and busy i do want to get some stuff out of the way not out of the way i want to tell you about some things the wtf book waiting for the punch is out in paperback tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow tuesday we've had a lot of people tell us over the past year how much they've loved it and we're really proud of the book brendan and i worked hard on it brendan harder than me
Marc:After the fact of the talk, Brendan was the amazing human index.
Marc:His memory is transcendent.
Marc:Is that the word I want?
Marc:How about unbelievable?
Marc:You can order a paperback copy at markmarinbook.com or click on the book link at wtfpod.com or you can just go to wherever you get books tomorrow, October 16th.
Marc:I know a lot of you were waiting for this because you want to throw for that hardback.
Marc:Here's the paper.
Marc:And also, speaking of books, if I may, my friend Jill Soloway, many of you know her as the creator of Transparent.
Marc:She's been on this show forever.
Marc:Two or three times, actually.
Marc:She's also a director of great stuff.
Marc:She has a memoir coming out tomorrow.
Marc:It's called She Wants It, Desire, Power, and Toppling the Patriarchy.
Marc:So if you're a fan of Jill's and you like her stuff, go get that book, too.
Marc:Get both of them.
Marc:But if you have to really... If you're up against the wall, you're like, oh, man, I've only got this much money left.
Marc:I can only afford... Waiting for the punch would be the choice to make there.
Marc:And then loop back around, get Jill's book when you have the extra money.
Marc:That's not really an amazing plug.
Marc:Just get both books, all right?
Marc:Just get both books.
Marc:Jesus, what am I... Why do you got to back me into a corner with this shit?
Marc:He said to himself again, over and over again.
Marc:So...
Marc:Friday, October 19th, I'm going to be hosting this big, what's going to be a pretty amazing show, actually.
Marc:It's called Across the Great Divide.
Marc:It's a benefit concert for the American Music Association and the Blues Foundation.
Marc:It's going to be me hosting...
Marc:Jimmy Vivino is going to be leading the band.
Marc:He's the musical director.
Marc:But we got John Prine, Bob Weir, Lucinda Williams, Leon Womack, Doyle Bramhall II, Shamika Copeland, Larkin Poe, Joe Louis Walker, Tosh Neal, and Slash is coming.
Marc:And there's also some other special guests that I know about, but I'm not even going to tell you.
Marc:I'll tell you this.
Marc:John Prine's set is going to be surprising because... Enough said, but...
Marc:Here's my dilemma, and this is a luxury problem.
Marc:It's not even a problem, and some of you out there are going to hate me for it.
Marc:I'm just going to put that out there.
Marc:So I'm hosting this thing.
Marc:You know me and Jimmy are friends.
Marc:He lets me play with him.
Marc:So he wants me to play a song that I played with him out in the blues clubs a couple of times.
Marc:Steppin' Out from the Blues Breakers album, John Mayall and the Blues Breakers album, the famous Beano record, where Eric Clapton is the guitar player.
Marc:Steppin' Out is a guitar song, and Jimmy wants me to go ahead and sit in.
Marc:And that usually wouldn't be an issue, because I'll just do it, you know, if it's a little club, but this is going to be at the Ace Hotel Theater.
Marc:That's where you can get tickets, by the way.
Marc:Ace Hotel Theater.
Marc:Just do the searchy thing.
Marc:So he wants me to do it there, which on the face of it, I can handle that.
Marc:Okay, yeah, sure.
Marc:I'll jump in.
Marc:But then he's like, you and Slash are going to do Steppin' Out.
Marc:I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, back up, man.
Marc:You know, people do not want to see Marc Maron play guitar.
Marc:They did not come out to see Marc Maron kind of wrench through his 8 to 12 blues licks.
Marc:They're there to see Slash.
Marc:So Mark Maron, speaking candidly to Mark Maron, was like, dude, you can't sit in with Slash.
Marc:And I imagine some of you are like, yeah, you're right.
Marc:You can't.
Marc:It's just like, we appreciate your hobby.
Marc:And we're glad you're having a good time, but there's plenty of more deserving folks.
Marc:And I hear that.
Marc:I hear that.
Marc:And I and and maybe none of you are saying that, but the the guy inside of my head.
Marc:But he's saying it a lot.
Marc:And now, like, you know, I've got this problem with my arm and my elbow and the other fingers all fucked up.
Marc:So I'm looking for excuses.
Marc:And I just, I'm intimidated.
Marc:And I told Jimmy that.
Marc:I said, look, Jimmy, I'm texting him.
Marc:I said, I'm nervous about this because Slash is Slash and I'm, you know, a comic who's hosting it that enjoys playing guitar by himself, generally.
Marc:And Jimmy's like, don't be nervous.
Marc:You're a natural.
Marc:It's going to be great.
Marc:Slash is very giving.
Marc:Not completely sensitive to my issue, but it was enough for me to go like, all right, maybe I can do this, right?
Right.
Marc:But I don't know.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:Here's my ultimate thinking about it.
Marc:I'm going to do it because who gives a fuck?
Marc:What's the worst that can happen?
Marc:I fuck up the lead.
Marc:People are like, why is Marc Maron playing guitar?
Marc:Who gives a shit?
Marc:Because I walk away from that.
Marc:No matter what happened, it's going to be like, I just played with Slash.
Marc:Uh, and that, you know, that's a pretty big deal.
Marc:So those of you who aren't planning on going and are like, oh, well, if Mark Maron's going to play two stanzas of lead on an old blues breaker song with slash that, that put me over the top on that.
Marc:I'm going to, I'm going to buy a ticket.
Marc:Thank you to you people.
Marc:One of you, whatever.
Marc:But I'm just telling you, uh,
Marc:There's no reason not to be envious of me or think I shouldn't be doing that.
Marc:But I'm here to tell you that I give zero fucks about that, really.
Marc:And that's a new feeling.
Marc:And I'm going to do it.
Marc:I'm going to do it unless my arm really hurts.
Marc:See, I've got a built-in justification for the bail.
Marc:You dig?
Marc:The bail.
Marc:So I was in Phoenix, and I have...
Marc:I love Arizona.
Marc:I've been going to Arizona for years.
Marc:My ex-wife's from Arizona.
Marc:My brother lives in Arizona.
Marc:I've been going to Arizona for a long time.
Marc:I always like Arizona.
Marc:But in recent years, I get nervous going to Arizona.
Marc:And it's not Arizona itself.
Marc:Geographically, I love the state.
Marc:Culturally, it's okay.
Marc:Politically, you know, I've been there.
Marc:I've performed there a lot, and I always do well.
Marc:But every time I go, there's some part of my brain that's sort of like,
Marc:We're going to be at this this room, you know, with my people in it that night.
Marc:That's going to be all of us.
Marc:But so I get I get nervous.
Marc:I don't know what I'm thinking.
Marc:I'm not going to perform at a fucking Trump rally.
Marc:But I just I always there's sort of part of me that's sort of like, I don't know, man.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But, man, I'll tell you.
Marc:It was an amazing show.
Marc:Great people came.
Marc:It was tight.
Marc:Jill Kimmel opened for me.
Marc:And I'm an idiot.
Marc:I didn't even ask.
Marc:But she's Jimmy's sister.
Marc:So that was kind of nice hanging out with her.
Marc:I got caught up on how Jimmy's kid is doing.
Marc:He's doing fine.
Marc:And got to meet her and talk to her.
Marc:She did a good job.
Marc:My brother was in town.
Marc:That's the other thing, man.
Marc:Something's going on with me.
Marc:I don't know if I'm more vulnerable or more open or some shit.
Marc:I don't know what it is, but I turned 55 and something contracted and opened, if that makes sense.
Marc:Like some, you know, there were just all of a sudden it's sort of like, wow, I'm, you know, I'm pretty far, you know, I'm in, I'm in the second half here.
Marc:It might be the, the last third, who the hell knows, but something happened in my brain.
Marc:You know, I, you know, a lot of the things that I use to sort of like keep people away or, or act out or, or, or, you know, like it just like, I'm just totally onto myself.
Marc:All of a sudden.
Marc:And I realized like, you know, man, whatever.
Marc:And I think this is good advice for everybody.
Marc:You know, it's like if you're at odds with family members for whatever reason, even if they don't know it or it's in your mind, you know, think about it because you're going to get to a point where you're going to be like, why did I keep a distance?
Marc:Why did I why was I judgmental?
Marc:Why was I a dick?
Marc:Why?
Marc:You know, sometimes there's good reasons, but a lot of times it just becomes a habit.
Marc:And it's based on old shit.
Marc:You don't have that much time on the planet.
Marc:And your family's your family.
Marc:I know it's weird coming from me, but I don't got anything against my brother.
Marc:But I think, you know, we don't talk enough.
Marc:You know, I've been judgmental in the past.
Marc:But, you know, we spent the day together, spent some time with his son.
Marc:We talked.
Marc:We kind of bonded.
Marc:We went over our notes.
Marc:in terms of how we're both dealing with the trauma of our childhood.
Marc:You know, he's got some tips.
Marc:I got some tips.
Marc:How are you doing with this?
Marc:Are you still doing that?
Marc:And he's like, no, fuck that.
Marc:I'm not even going to worry about that anymore.
Marc:See, that sounds like that.
Marc:So maybe you got to work on it.
Marc:You know, that kind of thing.
Marc:So we did a little catching up on our approach to what we've had to reckon with emotionally.
Marc:We had some food.
Marc:He came to the show, hung out backstage.
Marc:Yeah, it was nice.
Marc:I guess it's just, I don't know, man.
Marc:Maybe it's just a PSA.
Marc:If your family's not a complete fucking disaster who makes you fear and tremble with anger and pain, give him a call.
Marc:You know, if it is get over a bull, get over it and fucking reconnect, because in these trying times and as you get older, you're going to want those people around.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Or at least you want to be able to call them.
Marc:They know you.
Marc:They come from the same war.
Marc:Your family, your siblings, they were in the same war as you.
Marc:Maybe not everybody looks at their childhood like that.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:How about just the same battlefield?
Marc:How about that?
Marc:So listen, the other thing I wanted to tell you that happened in Phoenix, if I could, if you got a minute...
Marc:So I get to the club, and I'm walking out the hotel, and I'm just seeing, hey, there's a lot of people out here dressed kind of weird.
Marc:There's a lot of Tommy Bahama shirts.
Marc:There's a lot of strange headgear and hula skirts.
Marc:And I'm like, what the fuck is happening?
Marc:I find the night that I'm performing there in Phoenix, there's a Jimmy Buffett, a massive Jimmy Buffett...
Marc:Concert and an enclave or what is it?
Marc:Gathering, a Buffett gathering.
Marc:What do they call parrot heads?
Marc:And I tell you, man, why can't I just let people have their good time?
Marc:I can, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to talk about it.
Marc:I mean, I walk out of the hotel and they're just like hundreds of these people with their Hawaiian shirts on, you know, and then every place out in that area is playing Jimmy Buffett songs.
Marc:I get up to the comedy club and the restaurant across the way has got like Jimmy Buffett cover band in there and it's full of these Jimmy Buffett people and they're playing.
Marc:It's like it was inescapable for about a half hour.
Marc:And that's a half hour way too fucking long, if you're asking me.
Marc:It was like being in the circle of hell reserved for the sin of having bad taste in music.
Marc:But I didn't quite understand, I guess, just how popular he is.
Marc:And I know I'll get a little pushback.
Marc:It's like, hey, man, why don't you shut up?
Marc:People, it's family fun.
Marc:We all go out.
Marc:We get a little fucked up.
Marc:And we sing along.
Marc:It's like an hour and a half sing-along about cheeseburgers and margaritas and whatever other ones he's got.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:See, that's a little condescending.
Marc:But look, it's it is what it is.
Marc:But I didn't really realize that he had this kind of following.
Marc:It's like the it's like the Grateful Dead for golfers.
Marc:You know, if your drug is golf and and beer, this is who this is where you go.
Marc:Surprisingly, no, it seemed very white ish.
Marc:I think that, you know, in my mind, that could be what a small slice of fascism could look like if it sort of takes over.
Marc:There'd be the sort of, you know, Tommy Bahama shirt outfit of a certain sect.
Marc:We'll see.
Marc:That's all I can say.
Marc:We'll see.
Marc:Wasting away again in Margaritaville.
Marc:See, like, how do I even know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's in there.
Marc:It's in there.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:But, you know, I fought it.
Marc:That's all I'm saying.
Marc:I fought it.
Marc:So Busy Phillips, what a lovely and neurotic kindred spirit, I might say.
Marc:Her new memoir, This Will Only Hurt a Little, comes out tomorrow.
Marc:A lot of books coming out tomorrow.
Marc:Also, she's the host of a new late night talk show, Busy Tonight.
Marc:It premieres October 28th on E!
Marc:And I had a great time hanging out with her.
Marc:And now you're going to hear that happen.
Guest:I have bad knees.
Guest:I've dislocated both of my knees.
Guest:I've had knee surgery.
Guest:Jesus, how the hell did that happen?
Guest:Well, many different ways.
Marc:Both knees?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Skiing?
Guest:No, no, it's so lame.
Guest:I wish one time when I was in just getting up.
Guest:Yeah, kind of.
Guest:Well, once, yeah, on a skateboard trying to impress boys when I was in middle school.
Guest:Oh, in a mosh pit.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:But I wasn't actually in the mosh pit.
Guest:I was just sort of a bystander.
Marc:And you got hit by a person?
Guest:And I got hit by a person.
Guest:What concert was that?
Guest:It wasn't.
Guest:It was the seventh grade school dance.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:It's in my book, Mark.
Guest:It's all in my book.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know it's on your book.
Marc:But I'll tell you honestly, and you're about to be an interviewer too.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:When someone has a book and you know that they're good talkers, it behooves you not to get too far into the book or you'll lead them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because then you're looking for like, what about that time?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:So like, you know, if we hit some of the stuff in the book, I'm good with it.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:I tend to, I found myself, you know, reading the parts that were profoundly disturbing.
Guest:Yeah, okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean Catholicism when I say that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But wait, let's not... No, no, no.
Guest:But anyway, so yeah, and then I dislocated my knee when I was on a TV show called Dawson's Creek.
Marc:See, I knew about that.
Marc:I'm not a moron.
Marc:You were drunk on Dawson's Creek.
Guest:Drunk in a bar.
Guest:It wasn't while we were filming.
Marc:It was off camera.
Marc:You were shit-faced in a bar with some of the other Dawson Creekers.
Guest:And I dislocated my knee.
Marc:And those are big events.
Marc:When you dislocate a knee, you become the sense of attention very quickly.
Marc:Did the mosh pit stop?
Guest:Yeah, they had to shut down the school dance.
Guest:It was really humiliating, I'm not going to lie.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Guest:But I also have pretty intense anxiety and depression.
Marc:Always?
Guest:I think so, yeah.
Marc:I do too.
Marc:But do you find you're depressed too?
Guest:Sometimes, yeah.
Marc:But do you find, do you ever think like what I realized about myself, if I could share this with you?
Guest:Yeah, I would like it.
Marc:Is that I realized, you know, fairly recently that my anxiety like is always there.
Marc:Like I'm sort of like a dread guy, you know, like, oh God, I got to, you know, like it never stops.
Marc:But, you know, it's not debilitating.
Marc:But if anxiety gets to a point where your brain just kind of gives in, you kind of get this paralysis that feels like depression.
Marc:But I think it's just the last stage of anxiety.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's interesting.
Guest:Maybe that's true.
Guest:I'm not I'm not on medication for depression, but I do find that.
Guest:Yeah, maybe you're right that it gets really overwhelming.
Guest:And then I what I get is this like it.
Guest:I don't know how else to describe it.
Guest:It's just like hollow.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like I just feel like empty.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Exhausted.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like slightly detached from your body.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I had that today.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I had on Saturday.
Guest:I had Saturday.
Guest:I had a really crazy thing happen to me, Mark.
Guest:I mean, it's been like a weird fucking time just in the world.
Guest:But also for me personally, just it's just been a weird time.
Guest:And on Saturday, I got so overwhelmed with rage.
Guest:that I got nauseous, and that's never happened to me before.
Guest:I thought I was going to puke.
Guest:And I was so angry, and I just was trying to explain it to Mark, my husband, Mark.
Guest:And I was like, I just have been so fucking angry for so long, and I have nowhere to fucking put it.
Guest:And I almost vomited.
Guest:I was so...
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Overcome.
Guest:And then that hollowness thing.
Marc:It happened.
Guest:It happened.
Marc:Because all the feelings get stuffed and you just gut yourself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Leave your body.
Marc:Well, I mean, it was a heavy week.
Marc:It was a heavy week for women everywhere.
Marc:It was a heavy week for the country.
Marc:And you just went public with your assault.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, I mean, of course, that must have reopened.
Marc:And I mean, you could track it, right?
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I know, but like even when you can intellectually like point to all the things, it doesn't help.
Guest:Why does it not help the emotion?
Guest:Why does it not help the rawness of the thing?
Marc:Well, I think sometimes like the anger thing, like, I don't know, like even today, like I get angry over bullshit and it's because I think a lot of times it's just because of sadness.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like, what do you want to cry or yell?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Sometimes I do both at the same time.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:A lot of times, actually.
Marc:Well, I mean, what was the reaction in general to you?
Marc:It's in the book.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But you vocalized it in relationship to what was going on in the Senate as well and for women in general.
Guest:Well, I guess what happened...
Guest:for me on that morning.
Guest:We're talking about the Kavanaugh hearings and Dr. Ford.
Guest:I've come to terms with this thing that happened to me when I was 14 over the last 25 years.
Guest:When I was about 20, 18, 19, I started going to therapy and really like...
Guest:dig into what it was because how i had classified it for a while and how i had tried to justify it in my brain my little baby brain to make it okay for myself was not that i was raped like it was that i was in this relationship with this person well yeah and like i i was not to interrupt but just to say you know so people know we're talking about i mean the
Marc:the thing that I found the most disturbing, that story of losing your virginity to, you know, and not having much say in it and it being a horrible experience is a fairly common story.
Guest:For sure.
Guest:I said, I just said to some friends, I'm on this like one of the,
Guest:i hate this is interrupting this but like sometimes group texts are just the bane of my existence like i don't i get added to them and then i'm just like mute them but i am on this group text with a bunch of people that i performed within this show at largo the thrilling adventure hour show for years and they were all like sort of reaching out that day when i posted the picture of me at 14 and said i was raped and
Guest:And I was like, guys, I love you all so much and thank you so much.
Guest:And this is sadly the most unoriginal horror.
Guest:Like it just is like it just I know so many women who have such similar stories.
Guest:And then even the way that like I tried to own it at age 14 and 15.
Guest:And yeah, right.
Guest:I'm a fucking slut.
Guest:Like.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And also like this is the way sex is.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, for sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I think there's a lot of women that don't identify those first experiences as assault or rape.
Guest:I hope that we can start to have the conversation and we can because now I have a 10 year old daughter.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean.
Guest:My friends have 14 year old kit.
Guest:My friend just texted me this morning and she was like, my, you know, our daughter is 14.
Guest:And I was looking at your post again this morning and just like thinking of my kid and crying.
Guest:And I think that that also has shifted the way that I've been able to think about it, being a parent of a young girl and seeing how little I
Marc:Right.
Guest:Like how little 14 is.
Marc:And we think we're grownups at that age.
Marc:Oh, for sure.
Marc:When you're 14 or 15, you're like, I'm there.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I know what's up.
Guest:And I mean, to look at these babies and their little baby brains.
Guest:I mean, they make no sense.
Guest:They're like idiots.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:But I think that whole sort of like high school thing that there is some sort of strange pressure from, you know, all sides to get that out of the way somehow.
Guest:But I had so many friends that like that didn't that didn't it didn't work that way for them.
Guest:They were like like one of my best friends.
Guest:I remember she was like dating this kid and like her mom sat her down.
Guest:Her mom was just very progressive and liberal and like.
Guest:She was young.
Guest:She was like 15 or almost 16 maybe.
Guest:And she was like, let's go to the doctor.
Guest:Let's get you on the pill.
Guest:Let's talk about things.
Marc:You never got that.
Guest:No, I never fucking got that.
Guest:But Catholicism, right?
Guest:I talk about that in the book.
Marc:Well, I mean, it's heavy that those conversations don't happen.
Marc:And I think like now as a parent yourself, how are you going to handle it?
Guest:Well, we already... I mean, listen, my 10-year-old and I have already talked about sex.
Guest:Like, she asked a lot of questions.
Guest:And then just the other day, I got... On Saturday, the day of the rage.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was dropping her off at her little, like, theater program that she does, and...
Guest:I just a thing popped up that I had gotten an email from a girl I was really close with.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When I was 14 apologizing to me for what hurt like for not just for all of it, I guess.
Guest:And it just took my breath away a little bit.
Guest:And Birdie was like, what was that?
Guest:And I was like, oh, nothing, buddy.
Guest:You know.
Guest:I have this book coming out you know that and she's like yeah I know and I said so listen if you see anything or read anything I need you to and you have questions I need you to come talk to me about it because I will I will tell you anything but I want to be the one to tell you so if anyone says anything to you read any articles about you about me yeah like come talk to me because I want to I want to tell you
Marc:Yeah, so you can manage the situation from that because you have no control over how people are.
Marc:It's the worst.
Marc:It's tricky.
Marc:Being a public person.
Guest:She didn't ask for us.
Marc:Neither did you really.
Guest:Well, I for sure did not.
Guest:That's the truth.
Guest:But, but yeah, I mean, I guess like as she gets a little bit older, we'll, we'll dig in, but we're just wholly different people.
Guest:My husband and I, and he's a different kind of dad and we're just different.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like how, like where, what's he come from?
Guest:Mark comes from Maryland.
Marc:What's the big difference in your approach?
Guest:I think that we're just a little bit more participatory in terms of like, you know, I had a dad that was like very quiet and worked and came home.
Guest:And it was like more like weirdly like a 50s structure.
Guest:I mean, maybe that's the Catholicism too.
Guest:Even though my mom had a job, like she was expected to like make dinner and have it on the table, like that kind of thing.
Marc:Where'd you grow up?
Marc:You grew up outside of Chicago?
Guest:No, I was born in Oak Park outside of Chicago.
Guest:And then we moved to Arizona.
Guest:I grew up in Arizona.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:I had like sort of, my family had a really hard time with my book.
Marc:Yeah, they're gonna.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Unless one of them's a complete self-centered.
Marc:My mother, even if I say kind of bad things about her, she's like, that was cute.
Marc:That was fun.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:She's just thrilled that it's about her somehow.
Guest:Oh, you have the advance.
Guest:I had to put, I got, you know, like they make you put like the quotes on the back of the book.
Guest:And so Miranda July gave me one, which was like so exciting for me and thrilling.
Guest:And Tina Fey gave me one.
Guest:And then I was waiting for other people.
Guest:People, you know, have their own timeline and whatever.
Guest:But the book had to like go to print.
Guest:And so I just put the text that my mom sent me when she finished it, which was like...
Guest:Just finished your book.
Guest:It's a good book.
Guest:I love you.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:Just finished your book.
Guest:It's a good book.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Great.
Guest:We're never talking about this again.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you have to commend her detachment on some level.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:I mean, you know what the subtext is, but she didn't make it about her.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Actually, you know what?
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Give it up to Barb Phillips.
Yeah.
Guest:I think that for a long time I was rearing to tell my stories.
Guest:And I tried to sell a book of essays when I was in my mid-20s.
Marc:When you were on what show?
Marc:What was your profile?
Guest:It was probably right post Dawson's Creek.
Marc:So people knew who you were and you had an opportunity?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, no, no.
Guest:I mean, I talked to a book agent and I gave her some essays that I had written about a lot of the early stuff that was in the book.
Guest:And she was just like, no, this is not.
Guest:No, she was.
Guest:I mean, truly, the quote was, I think that people aren't going to care so much about, you know, losing your virginity and pregnancy scares.
Guest:They want to know more what it was like to work with Katie Holmes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, oh, well, I'll give you that, too.
Guest:But sit through the fucking rape.
Guest:You know, I had to.
Marc:Rape aside.
Marc:What was it like working with Katie Holmes?
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It felt so dismissive and heartbreaking.
Guest:And I was like, well, fuck you.
Guest:All right, fine.
Guest:I'm not writing a book.
Guest:But I'm glad.
Guest:I'm glad.
Guest:I needed more perspective.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you have it.
Guest:I have it now.
Marc:And then you have motherhood and you have all new experiences and you've turned out OK and you're self-aware.
Guest:It's happening a little bit.
Guest:Some days.
Guest:Some days are better than others.
Marc:But at that point, even then, you had framed it as a rape?
Guest:No.
Marc:Not that.
Marc:So it's lucky that you didn't write the book then.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Because what would you have said?
Marc:That's right.
Guest:Well, right.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:I actually went back and read that essay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That I waited until after I was finished with this version of the book.
Marc:And what was that?
Guest:It was more... I mean, it's more just like more gray...
Guest:It's just gray.
Guest:It's just more gray.
Marc:You put more onus on yourself?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But even when I posted the thing on Instagram and I said the word raped, it was like a panic attack.
Guest:I called my husband, Mark.
Guest:I was in New York doing press, and I called him, and he was like,
Guest:I'm so proud of you.
Guest:And I was like, but I, I feel I, it was just so just even admitting that publicly, even though I write about it in the book, I don't even know.
Guest:I don't know what the distinction is between the two things.
Guest:Seeing it in black and white and with that picture of me, I don't know.
Guest:It was really a hard, it's been a hard few days, actually.
Guest:It's just been a really hard few days for me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And when you say that, like that in framing it the way you have framed it now, which is what it is, how do you see what was the learning of how it affected your life?
Marc:I mean, like, was it?
Guest:It's been a fucking shit show.
Marc:I mean, not the admitting of it, but the actual event.
Marc:Was that a revelation that's sort of like, oh, this is why I do this.
Marc:This is why this happens.
Guest:I have intimacy issues.
Guest:I have problems trusting myself and my own feelings and knowing what's real and what...
Guest:isn't.
Marc:Right, in terms of love, in terms of other people.
Guest:Yeah, relationships and other people, and especially, you know, Mark and I write a little bit about some of the, because he and I have been together now, oh, 13 years, I guess.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A long time.
Guest:And I write a little bit about how tricky things have been for us to try to navigate.
Guest:Although I don't think that's unusual.
Guest:No.
Guest:But there's other stuff that's not in the book that is,
Marc:You know, it's it's it's horrible to not be able to, you know, to to know what to not be clear as to what love is.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And and also to like, you know, not trust your own feelings about it for for whatever reason.
Marc:You know, rape is a very specific reason, but sometimes just absent parents emotionally.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you like it.
Marc:Were you were you a drama person in terms of relationships before?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But also like Mark and I were talking about it.
Guest:He's very, I picked a dude who was very similar to my dad in a lot of ways.
Marc:Like when Mark and I. Isn't that always the way?
Guest:Always the fucking way.
Guest:Fucking Freud.
Marc:And even when you think you don't, like there's that initial period.
Marc:Like this person is nothing like that.
Marc:Like about six months in you're like, what the fuck?
Marc:It's just the other parent.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Like, you know, like how did I get my dad this time?
Guest:Usually it's my mom.
Guest:I know it's insane.
Guest:And Mark had all of those things like which weren't sort of initially apparent.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then once we had Birdie, he like peaced out and was just like, like, just just like very much like my dad, like the first kid, the first kid, like not doing anything, not taking an eye.
Guest:It was on all on me.
Guest:Like I had to wake up with her all the time.
Guest:And it's all all of this shit is so crazy right now in terms of like what men's responsibilities are, how we like redefine roles in relationships and parenting and things like that.
Guest:Like it is.
Guest:It's really complicated because there is a certain thing where like no matter what the mom is the fucking mom.
Guest:And like that's what the babies want.
Yeah.
Marc:Mommy.
Guest:The babies want the mom.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Sorry, dudes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But is that a problem?
Guest:It's not a problem unless you feel completely unsupported and like there's not a person there.
Guest:And resentful.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then you get resentful.
Marc:And then you code the kid wrong.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Oh, Birdie.
Marc:You want to make sure you give the kid the right code, brain code.
Guest:Yeah, we maybe coded Birdie a little bit wrong.
Guest:But Cricket, we are like nailing it.
Guest:She's so good.
Guest:She's like a little.
Marc:But the fortunate thing about the first one is that what's the age difference?
Marc:Well, they're five years apart.
Marc:All right, so the center of attention for that long, that's going to carry her a long way.
Marc:I know.
Marc:The confidence of being that, it won't break down until she's like 19.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I always say to her, I'm like, dude, you're going to be in therapy talking about me for years, so you may as well just, like, get on board.
Guest:It's going to be fine.
Marc:Yeah, it always... I don't know.
Marc:You know, I'm with you on that.
Marc:Intimacy is tricky, you know, and you don't realize how guarded you are until that one day where you're like, am I even present in this thing?
Guest:Yes!
Marc:Wait, am I talking to a wall?
Marc:Is all this drama just... What I used to find... I guess I'm talking about me, which is not unusual.
Guest:I like it.
Marc:Is that...
Marc:If you create enough drama just naturally, you're emotionally wired or coded in a certain way that you are going to seek what you grew up with.
Marc:And you don't know what's happening.
Marc:But I was a guy that was always in very kind of like yelling, dramatic, crazy, and I was yelling and dramatic and crazy.
Marc:So there's all this emotion going around.
Marc:And when you have that and you make up or it settles down, you're like, see, this is intimacy.
Marc:Like we have to arc out.
Guest:Did you grow up in like a screaming household like me?
Marc:I grew up in an emotionally erratic household.
Marc:My father was detached, but when he was engaged, it was not always good.
Guest:Yep, same.
Marc:You know, like he wasn't around much.
Marc:And when he was around, either was sort of like, where's my hammer?
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:And that was like a day.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like, you know, we're going skiing.
Marc:Where's my hat?
Marc:And that was like a fucking day.
Marc:And my mother was just kind of like into her own trip.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:But it wasn't, you know, I think they were both self-involved.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And so, like, you know, I kind of naturally, I'd done some reading on the whole kind of what we do when your parents are emotionally detached or overly, you know, boundaryless or whatever.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Is that you self-parent and the way that you innately do it's not great.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The parent you choose is going to be one that's going to be a little hard on you and it's going to end up, you know, with all that kind of like self-doubt and all that shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you grew up in a loud?
Marc:That speaks to me.
Marc:Does it?
Guest:Yeah, it does.
Marc:There's a book that just sort of blew my mind about that.
Guest:What is it?
Marc:It's a little dense.
Marc:It's called The Fantasy Bond by this guy, Robert Firestone.
Marc:But he really talks about, you know, these bonds you make to sort of as like stand-ins for your parents and that like your own attempt.
Marc:Here's the deal.
Marc:You want the key to it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:which is fucked up, the thing that blew my mind, is that when you're young, if you're not feeling cared for or you're feeling uncomfortable in the world or you're feeling emotionally ill at ease or ill-supported, at that point, you're taught almost innately that your parents are your parents and they're always good.
Marc:So at that young age, you just naturally blame yourself.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Right?
Marc:So that's like a hell of a burden.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Parents are always good.
Marc:It must be me.
Marc:And then, you know, whatever you do to sort of parent that is sort of like you asshole.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're fucking garbage.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So that that was kind of a big mark doesn't understand.
Guest:My Mark doesn't understand.
Guest:He sometimes like looks at me and he's like, what goes on in your brain?
Guest:You are so hard on yourself.
Guest:Look at this.
Guest:Like, look at your life and what you've done and who you are and how people respond to you.
Guest:Why do you think you're garbage?
Marc:And then you're like, because of this one tweet?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Did you see the one tweet from a guy with no name?
Marc:This one guy thought I was stupid in Dawson Creek.
Marc:And like, I don't know who he is.
Guest:Oh my God, Mark.
Guest:A million years ago, like basically pre-internet.
Guest:Do you remember that on IMDb, there used to be like chat boards on IMDb?
Guest:So I used to troll my own IMDb and see the horrible things that people would write about me.
Guest:And I mean, there could be, and you know, because you just said it, there could be 4 million.
Marc:Oh, I love you.
Guest:She's the greatest.
Guest:And then there's one guy.
Guest:And I was so fixated on this guy.
Guest:I wrote this crazy response that was like two pages long and posted it on IMDb.
Guest:I must have been like 20 years old at the time.
Marc:When I did radio, some guy wrote this shitty email about me and I emailed him back to ask him what specifically about me was a big problem.
Marc:And we went back and forth to the point where he said, why do you keep emailing me?
Marc:They're like, what is that?
Marc:Like, all of a sudden, I'm the guy who's pestering him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because it's some sort of fucked up speedball where you're like, we love you.
Marc:Yeah, you're the best.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:You're shit.
Marc:Like, what the fuck?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I guess it speaks to our own, you know, yeah, that it triggers that thing we feel about ourselves.
Marc:And you're sort of like, this guy's right.
Guest:Yeah, that's the one.
Guest:That's the one I'm listening to.
Marc:He knows.
Guest:I said to Mark last week, because, you know, I have this talk show that's about to come that starts in a couple of weeks.
Guest:Busy tonight.
Guest:Busy tonight on E!
Guest:Four nights a week.
Guest:And I said to Mark, I don't think I can handle people being mean to me.
Guest:I don't know what I'm going to do when it starts to happen because I'm not, I understand it will happen.
Guest:I know people are going to, she's grating.
Guest:She's annoying.
Guest:I hate her voice.
Guest:Why is she fat and ugly and horrible or whatever?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Whatever they're going to say.
Marc:That in between 90, fuck this bitch.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Fuck this bitch.
Guest:Oh God, what am I gonna do?
Guest:What am I gonna do?
Marc:I'll tell you what you do.
Marc:No, you tell me.
Guest:What did your mark say?
Guest:He said, you gotta stop reading stuff.
Guest:He's like, I think you gotta do a little self-preservation and not read the stuff.
Guest:Just like, don't, just shut it down.
Marc:Well, that is what you gotta do, and it's hard, but like, you know, I don't, do you have a Google alert on your name?
Marc:No.
Marc:Don't do that.
Marc:And also, like, I have found, we had a comment board on the website for the podcast, which is like this minor traffic.
Marc:And what happens is a lot of times is that communities form around trolling bullshit.
Marc:So if you really look at it, a lot of times it's like nine people who just constantly post.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:Right, you know.
Guest:But Instagram's been like very instrumental.
Guest:I'm bad at it.
Marc:Yeah, you're like a star on Instagram.
Guest:I went from being like a moderately successful television actress to an Instagram influencer.
Marc:Yeah, an influencer.
Marc:That's a new word, right?
Marc:Influencer and content.
Guest:Yeah, my content's huge, Mark.
Guest:But you know what?
Guest:Fuck it.
Guest:I got a TV show and a book deal out of it.
Guest:So whatever.
Marc:No, no, it's great, but you do have to not use comment boards to kind of beat the shit out of yourself.
Marc:It's hard.
Marc:Well, here's the truth of the matter.
Marc:Being triggered, not in a sexual way, but in a sort of shame or piece of shit way,
Marc:There is a point where your instinct is sort of like, why?
Marc:But then if you just wait a second, it's like anger too.
Marc:If you just wait a minute and don't do anything about it and just realize that's nobody.
Marc:He or she represents nobody.
Marc:It's not the internet saying anything.
Marc:It's one guy or one woman.
Marc:What are they doing?
Marc:Realize that.
Marc:It's just this one person, could be at work, bored, in a cubicle, a life they hate, and they're like, and you, a major sort of like public personality, they don't even think you read them.
Marc:I know, I know.
Marc:And here we are, like I spent my entire day going like, oh my God, what the fuck?
Marc:I don't even want to be in this business anymore.
Marc:I know.
Marc:You know what, like nine people?
Guest:yeah that's the truth i know well we know this again it's like intellectual doesn't line up with the emotional like i'm well aware right but you just gotta like stop it also just like it's scratching that itch it's like yeah the same itch it's like cutting yeah it's like how i used to watch it is like cutting it is it's like our new version because like at least you're feeling something you're feeling something that's the fucking worst
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you have all these other things in your life.
Marc:You're feeling like you have children.
Marc:I do have children, yes.
Marc:And like every day, you know, the amazing joy of that.
Marc:It's so fucking hard, Mark.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I don't have any.
Marc:Yeah, it's tough.
Marc:You're not selling it.
Guest:Listen, my kids are incredible.
Guest:I'm so glad I had them.
Guest:They're awesome humans and I hope we'll...
Guest:Add to the world in some positive way.
Marc:Of course they will.
Guest:But it is difficult.
Marc:I bet.
Marc:You know, I it's like I I was fortunate in that I knew like I was the kind of person like I never really thought about having that.
Marc:It was never a goal in my life.
Marc:I was like, I'm going to have a family.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when I actually didn't for different reasons, you know, like I just I never thought about it.
Guest:I don't think it's unusual for men to not have that feeling.
Guest:My brother loves it.
Guest:I know.
Guest:But like my husband, like truly, I've basically like forced didn't force children.
Guest:But I just when we decided we were going to get married, I was like, you know, I'm I want children.
Guest:He's like, yeah, I mean, I could take it or leave it like he didn't.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But now I have any desire.
Guest:He had no desire to have children.
Marc:Is he born again?
Marc:Daddy now, though, like, I mean, yeah, he's like all in.
Marc:Yeah, that's what happens.
Marc:I don't care.
Marc:And then when it happens, like, oh, my God, like obsessed.
Guest:But yeah, we both like make we both hate that thing, though, with dudes where they're like,
Guest:Never known the joy of hold like I do with holding my baby.
Guest:Mark's like, I mean, I guess.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:I just feel like this is the one decision I made one way or the other that I don't really have that much regret.
Marc:When I talk to people my age who now have kids in their 20s or people in your age group, it's always like, I love them, but God damn it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm like, maybe it wasn't horrible that I missed that.
Marc:I don't always know what to do with myself.
Marc:I get to nap more.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm so fascinated by that.
Guest:I'm fascinated by my friends who've chosen to not have children and like, what is your day?
Guest:Like, what is your life?
Guest:Like, it's so... Are you saying that with envy?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Envy, but like also just like, I don't know, so much of our time is just spent like dealing with the kids and kids' stuff.
Marc:Consumed.
Marc:You can't clean your house.
Marc:You just take for granted that you're going to slip on a toy.
Guest:I mean, it's...
Guest:It's never ending.
Marc:There's food everywhere, dirty dishes everywhere.
Guest:Mark's older than me.
Guest:He's nine years older than me.
Guest:When I met him, he was in his 30s, and I was in my 20s, and he legitimately slept until 11.30 every day.
Marc:You can't do that when you're in your 50s.
Marc:It won't happen.
Guest:You just wake up.
Marc:It's the worst.
Marc:I wrote a joke about it.
Marc:My angle is I'm not a God person, but if there is a God, the waking up early makes me wonder because it's sort of like God saying, you better get up.
Marc:There's not a lot of time left.
Marc:You're running out.
Marc:You might want to be awake for this.
Guest:It's like that thing when you're pregnant, you know, in the first trimester and the last trimester, you have to wake up like four times a night to pee.
Guest:Like your body just does it.
Marc:I wake up twice, but it's my prostate.
Guest:It's not.
Guest:But I'm telling.
Guest:But I think that that's like that's like by design for pregnant women so that because once the baby comes, you have to wake up four times a night to feed them.
Guest:Like it's like getting you ready.
Guest:So I'm just wondering what.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:What the waking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I have.
Marc:It's getting me ready for like, you know, you've got a limited amount of time to try to experience happiness or feel peace of mind.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But like all these things, I think you're right, because there are fucking lizards that change colors to trees so they don't get eaten or they can eat things.
Marc:And, you know, to think that as complex as we are, that there's not all these built in things.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:And I'm sure there are scientists and research on this.
Marc:We just don't know what they are and we'd rather speculate.
Marc:Yeah, I like that.
Marc:More fun to see.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Speculating is great.
Marc:But you guys are both doing the parenting thing, and it sounds pretty good.
Guest:It's all right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:When I think about having children, right now, I'm nervous for the kid in the crib.
Marc:Just thinking about it, I'm like, is he alive in there?
Marc:Should we go in and look?
Marc:You have no idea.
Marc:I don't.
Guest:That it is truly the most terrifying year of your life.
Marc:The first year?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Just sort of like, is it okay?
Marc:Is she all right?
Guest:I also really had- And you're anxious anyways.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm anxious anyways, and I had horrible postpartum anxiety, which I didn't even know was a thing.
Guest:Not depression.
Guest:Everyone talks about postpartum depression.
Guest:Postpartum anxiety is like, I mean, the fucking worst.
Guest:I was paralyzed with anxiety.
Marc:I'm just terrified.
Marc:How could you not be?
Marc:I'm paralyzed now from you talking about it.
Marc:It was really stressful.
Marc:But it turns out they're they they like this is the one thing that I take from talking to parents is that, you know, once they become their own person, they're a little more resilient than you expect.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like, you know, like you're talking about your 10 year old.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:She's formulating her own ideas.
Marc:You can put yours in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and do the best you can.
Marc:But ultimately, they're going to be their own people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:One way or the other.
Marc:And hopefully they're they're they're good.
Marc:They're grounded.
Guest:She's so her own person already.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Somebody said this might have been Oprah.
Guest:I may have seen this on Oprah when I was a kid that like by the age of four or something like that, you're barring trauma.
Guest:You just are who you are.
Guest:So like four.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So like a kid's personality by the age of four.
Guest:That's how that kid is going to be for their entire life.
Guest:Barring trauma, which we know can affect people.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:But I kind of anecdotally, just with my two kids, already see it.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like Birdie is the same human that she was when she was four years old.
Guest:Like the same way she reacts to problems, the same way she throws temper tantrums at the same thing.
Guest:She's like frustrated by the same things.
Guest:Her insecurities are the same.
Guest:Like all of it's the same.
Marc:You should write this down.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:For when she's older.
Marc:And so you can just say like, look, you're really, you know, this is who you are.
Marc:And we have to.
Guest:You've always been this way.
Guest:You've always been this way, kid.
Marc:I wrote a line once that said, the monster I've created to protect the kid inside me is hard to manage.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:I know, right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:My monster is fucking rough.
Marc:It is.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I know.
Guest:I said to Mark yesterday, we were in an elevator and I was like, I'm sorry.
Guest:I'm such a fucking bitch.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Marc:What did you do?
Guest:I'm such a pain in the ass.
Marc:What did you do?
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It's just another moment in my life.
Guest:Another day.
Marc:It's tough.
Marc:Well, when you track that, so you're growing up in Arizona.
Marc:Which town?
Guest:Scottsdale.
Scottsdale.
Marc:That's where my brother lives.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Where?
Marc:My first wife lived in Scottsdale.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:My first wife lived right at the base of the Monk.
Guest:Camelback Mountain?
Marc:Yeah, is that the one?
Marc:Yeah, that's Camelback.
Marc:Yeah, where the Monk is?
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Yeah, they lived in that old development right there.
Guest:Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Marc:You ended up there from Chicago because your dad, what, had a job?
Guest:Yeah, my dad's a nuclear engineer.
Guest:A scientist.
Guest:I guess, is that right?
No.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I mean, well, I mean, is it, is that wasn't an engineer, an engineer, but nuclear, but it's, it's definitely math heavy.
Guest:I think so.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But like that would account for really knew what he did growing up.
Guest:Like really had no idea.
Marc:Do you now?
Guest:No, he's retired.
Marc:I was sworn to secrecy or you just don't know.
Guest:For a while, I was like hoping that he was like a secret agent for the CIA.
Guest:That was like that to me.
Guest:That was like the story I was creating in my head that could like explain why he didn't talk to us.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sworn to secrecy.
Marc:If he told you, he'd have to kill you.
Guest:Yeah, so that's why we didn't know.
Guest:But he worked for a private consulting firm out of Chicago and then was transferred or needed to go to work at the Palo Verde nuclear plant in Arizona.
Guest:And so he was transferred there and we moved there.
Guest:It was supposed to be like a temporary consulting job.
Marc:It lasted forever.
Marc:Well, I'm just saying that might account for some of the, I guess it's sort of stereotyping, but usually the engineer sort of mathy people are not the most emotionally available folks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He also wasn't, I know like in the last 10 years or so, he like has gone on antidepressants and is like a totally more engaged person.
Marc:And they also, they seem to soften up a bit.
Guest:Yeah, as they get older.
Marc:You know, when grandkids come and you know, when the things start, they start forgetting their life.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:Bless him.
Guest:Yeah, no, he has.
Guest:He's great with the girls and my sister's got two kids.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:It's just you and your sister?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so your mom was like basically, she worked too?
Guest:My mom was a real estate agent, yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:She wanted to be an actress, Mark.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:She did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you lived with that?
Marc:So how is it over time, how has she adjusted to you living her dream?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think that we had kind of different dreams, but... What did she want to be?
Guest:She wanted to be like a Broadway singer star.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was she from New York?
Guest:No, she was from Chicago.
Marc:They're both Chicago?
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:They met in high school.
Marc:Did they talk Chicago-y?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:My mom.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Never goes away, right?
Guest:Never goes away.
Marc:Do you still have family in Chicago?
Guest:Yeah, my two aunts, my dad's sister and my mom's sister both live there.
Marc:I love Chicago.
Marc:I do, too.
Marc:I'm going there on my book tour.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:I know.
Marc:It's really kind of an amazing city.
Guest:It is amazing.
Guest:I know, and I feel it's interesting, because even though we moved away when I was five, I spent almost every summer of my childhood, my grandparents lived there and aunts and uncles, and so we spent...
Guest:Great chunk of summer vacation every year in Chicago in Oak Park and then going to Wisconsin to Lake Geneva.
Guest:And so I feel like a very strong connection to to it, even though I really grew up in Arizona.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm the same way with Jersey.
Marc:Like I'm from genetically from New Jersey.
Marc:Both my parents from Jersey.
Marc:My grandparents were there.
Marc:I grew up going there, but I didn't grow up there.
Marc:I grew up in New Mexico, but I think I'm fundamentally Mexico.
Marc:I grew up in Albuquerque.
Guest:No wonder I like you Southwest.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's a really specific thing.
Marc:It is.
Marc:And Arizona's a little different than New Mexico.
Marc:It's a little more cowboy-y, white-y-ish.
Marc:Oh yeah, for sure.
Marc:Like New Mexico is pretty, like a little more kind of hippie-ish and Latino.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But yeah, it's a similar vibe.
Marc:You can appreciate the mesas.
Guest:The mesas and there's something about the desert and the sky and the wide open spaces.
Marc:Oh, it's great.
Marc:I fucking love Arizona when it's like 110.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:And you're outside walking and you're just high because you get immediately dehydrated.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You don't even need drugs.
Marc:You're just sort of like, what is happening?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And like, oh, I'm about to pass out.
Guest:I'm about to pass out.
Guest:And like monsoons, like people don't understand monsoons.
Marc:Oh, the 10-minute hardcore rain?
Guest:Yes, unless they grew up in the Southwest.
Guest:It's just like really a specific energy.
Marc:It's so beautiful.
Guest:People that grew up there.
Guest:That's interesting.
Marc:So how do you get out of Arizona?
Marc:I mean, before that, like how heavy was the Catholicism trip?
Guest:We were pretty religious, I guess, my family.
Guest:I mean, I was really into church, and I really liked it.
Marc:Do you go now?
Guest:No.
Guest:My mom, actually, to her credit, when the first round of revelations about the abuse in the church came out in the mid-2000s, whenever that happened,
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:She was like, I'm done with the Catholic Church.
Marc:I've asked people that on stage.
Guest:What's it going to take?
Guest:My mom was like, we're done.
Guest:And so she switched to an Episcopalian church.
Marc:Oh, nice.
Marc:Kept Jesus in, just lightened the load a little.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I think it was really hard for her, but she was just like, I don't want to be a part of this system.
Guest:I won't be a part of this system.
Marc:The system that's been going on for thousands of years.
Marc:Thousands of years.
Guest:But I think that for someone like my mom, she didn't really, I don't know.
Guest:I guess she didn't really, she didn't know.
Marc:But were you brought up afraid of hell?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So that's heavy.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm trying to think.
Guest:But then, you know, but then it just like, I don't know.
Guest:You get older and you're like, what is it?
Marc:And I was like, fuck this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like with all this anxiety and all this, you know, insanity that you have and all the feelings that you have, do you seek a spiritual component?
Guest:No.
Guest:And I feel like I should.
Guest:And I also weirdly feel like my daughters need it.
Guest:I feel like Birdie would really benefit from.
Marc:It's hard, right?
Marc:Isn't it hard?
Marc:So hard.
Marc:To engage after a certain point.
Marc:It's like, how do you do that?
Marc:Like, you know, meditation seems pretty non-denominational and soothing.
Marc:But like.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know, like, I was never brought up with any concept of God.
Marc:So, like, for me to find it now, I think, you know, I'd have to be in pretty big trouble.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, like, even, like, Birdie just always has been sort of an unbeliever, which is kind of dope for her.
Guest:But, you know, like, even when our cat died when she was three and our nanny came and got her, my husband and I were, like, literally a mess when the cat died.
Guest:There's nothing like losing an animal, you know?
Marc:I can't take it.
Marc:I know my cats are old and someone's going to go...
Guest:It's like truly the worst.
Marc:Those are the longest relationships I've had with anybody, are those two dumb cats in there.
Guest:Buddies, those little buddies.
Guest:Well, our nanny came and took Birdie for the day because Mark and I were like just grief-stricken.
Guest:We couldn't parent.
Guest:It was like a Saturday.
Marc:And how'd she handle it?
Guest:Birdie was fine, but then she came home and she was like, Ileana told me that the cat went to cat heaven.
Guest:And I was like, oh, that's interesting.
Guest:What did she say exactly?
Guest:And she's like, yeah, that, you know, there's this place and when you're good, you get to go there and when you die and that's where the cat went.
Guest:And then she was, this girl was three and a half years old.
Guest:And then she was silent for a minute.
Guest:She goes, well, I don't think it's real.
Guest:And I was like, what?
Guest:You don't?
Guest:And she's like, yeah, I think it's just saying that to make me feel better.
Guest:I was like, oh, shit.
Guest:Yes, that's correct, Bertie.
Marc:Yes, you're right.
Marc:And it didn't work, apparently.
Guest:Yeah, it didn't work.
Guest:She was just so skeptical.
Guest:Oh, that's what I say about her.
Guest:She's the most skeptical human I've ever... She was skeptical in her little pram when strangers would come like, oh, look at this beautiful baby.
Guest:And she was a
Guest:beautiful baby yeah look at this beautiful baby and she would just give them a side eye like who the fuck are you easy yeah she's always step back that's what i'm saying like she was that person from month two you know or whatever and she still is that person that's wild it's wild
Marc:But I think a lot of people, given what I share with you, which is this anxiety experience, a lot of that has to do with future thinking, too, right?
Marc:Like, what's gonna, tomorrow I gotta, oh, do you do that?
Marc:Like, next week I'm gonna, is it, do you have that kind of anxiety, or is it just free-floating?
Marc:It's free-floating.
Guest:It's all over the place.
Guest:But yeah, that kind of stuff.
Guest:Right now, I think I'm in the throes of, like, I have a big four weeks coming up ahead of me, and I'm trying to, like, remain cool, but... Stay in the present.
Guest:Staying in the present, but it's real hard.
Marc:Most of the time, the only time I'm fully present is when I'm talking to someone in here or I'm on the stand-up stage, you know, stuff like that.
Marc:You know, other times I'm half, you know, half in, half out.
Guest:Acting used to do it to me, too.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:It stopped?
Guest:Well, I stopped acting.
Guest:But it lasted all the way through whenever I do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, well, that's good.
Marc:So you can really get possessed and like you're in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You kind of have to.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But but sadly, what I've learned from TV and in my small experience with television is that like, yeah, you can it'll you can do it when you're acting, but it's usually in three minute chunks.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Separated by about an hour or two to reset.
Marc:That's true.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's true.
Marc:Like, I never realized that because I'm kind of a jacked person.
Marc:And like when I started on my show, I was writing, producing and acting and everything.
Marc:But on Glow, like I do my scene and then it's like six hours and I'm like, holy fuck.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What do you do?
Marc:Take a nap.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I hate the trailers.
Marc:I hate trailers of any kind.
Marc:So I end up just sitting around on the set like I'm there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But that's kind of its own exhaustion because there's so much energy flying around on a set.
Marc:So you're a trailer person?
Guest:Yeah, like on Cougar Town, we had rooms, like we had dressing rooms, which was really nice.
Guest:And so I would always, but I worked a lot on that show because there was so much, we were in, you know, it was like sort of like more a traditional sitcom.
Guest:So we were like all in every scene, kind of.
Marc:It was all studio?
Marc:It wasn't, was it?
Marc:Yeah, it was, really.
Guest:And we had like a little back lot thing that we shot on.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you actually had your own like hotel room almost.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you could go out in the hall and there'd be a buffet.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I took off all this weight just to prepare because I know when I start glow again that I'm just going to get fat.
Marc:Like in seven weeks, it's just going to keep going.
Guest:You love craft services?
Marc:It's not that I love it.
Marc:It's just like I'm sitting around and it seems like every couple of hours someone comes out and goes like, there's Indian food back there.
Marc:We're like, hey, it's Mexican today.
Marc:Hey, there's dim sum in the back.
Marc:And you're like, what?
Marc:And you're like, well, this is great.
Marc:It's like being on a cruise ship.
Guest:Yeah, I think it's different for women actresses.
Guest:I used to just do meal delivery when I was working.
Marc:Just so you don't blow up?
Guest:And then my brain, I would be like, well, you're only allowed to eat the things in the box.
Marc:And you did it.
Guest:Yeah, you can't eat anything that doesn't come in that box.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I'm sort of, you know, my body image shit is more culturally feminine than it is masculine.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:But I think there are a lot of male anorexic-y kind of guys who think about food all the time.
Marc:But, like, for me, like, I know that I'll be strong for about three weeks.
Marc:But then that one day where you're like, I'm just going to eat half that donut.
Marc:I'm going to eat half that donut.
Marc:You know, it's okay.
Guest:But then you circle around to see if anyone... I feel like you and I are the same person.
Guest:It's really weird.
Yeah.
Marc:But you circle around to see if anyone ate the other half.
Guest:I can do three weeks.
Guest:Three weeks is my max.
Marc:Right.
Guest:For being, like, real good.
Guest:And I can get real skinny and look real hot.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then I'm like, that donut fucking calls.
Marc:Oh, fuck, man.
Marc:It's such a good donut, too.
Marc:The day you do it.
Marc:But do you circle around, like, I'll eat half of one in a box and then I'll...
Marc:Come back around.
Marc:It's like, fuck, no one ate the other half.
Marc:And then I'll literally break off another quarter.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then eventually eat the whole donut.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, my thing is, like, I do candy.
Guest:I get, like, into candy.
Marc:Which candies?
Guest:I'm into gummies.
Marc:Really?
Marc:See, I'm not a gummy guy.
Guest:Oh, I love it.
Guest:And then, I don't know if you have this from Albuquerque, chips and salsa.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And, like, guacamole.
Marc:Oh, cool.
Guest:Like, that's, like, my downfall is truly just nachos.
Marc:Remind me to give you a jar of this stuff that my stepmom just sent me.
Guest:Why?
Marc:I just called her my stepmom, my dad's wife.
Marc:I mean, I was 35.
Guest:I like that she's your stepmom.
Guest:That's cute.
Marc:But she, I don't know where they got it, but like she brought me, they were here a while ago.
Marc:She brought me three jars of this green chili salsa.
Marc:Love it.
Marc:But you can really taste the green chili.
Marc:It's very specific, that New Mexico chili.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's weird to say because yesterday I just decided to Instagram about it because I'd Instagram this horrible cartoon that everyone got upset about.
Marc:So I'm like, hey, look, Julie, you know, there's a picture of my cat.
Marc:But.
Marc:But right after I tweeted it, I went outside and there were two boxes and it was filled with this stuff.
Marc:And I'm like, that was quick.
Marc:On a Sunday, they saw my Instagram post.
Marc:How'd they do it?
Marc:It was my dad's wife sent me.
Marc:I sent him three days ago for my birthday.
Marc:So I've got two crates of this shit.
Guest:It was really just your birthday.
Marc:27th, yeah.
Guest:Oh, happy birthday.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Anyway, so we're talking about food and talking about Cougar Town.
Marc:That was a big show for you.
Guest:Yeah, it was.
Marc:How do you end up acting in Arizona?
Marc:How do you get from there to here?
Guest:I just always knew.
Guest:I did all the theater stuff and school theater and some community theater.
Guest:Musicals?
Guest:Yeah, I did musicals.
Guest:I sang.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I sang.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just always knew that's what I wanted to do.
Guest:And...
Guest:And I, you know, and my mom was very adamant that I graduate from high school and do at least two years of college was the thing that they always would say drill into me.
Guest:And so I applied for colleges in Los Angeles because I knew that I wanted to start working as soon as I could.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I got into L.A.
Guest:Marymount University and Cal Arts and I chose LMU.
Guest:And and just like just I just like I just knew that I needed to do it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the timing was really great because it was 1997, 1998 when I got out here.
Guest:And people were looking for like the next teen show because Dawson's Creek, ironic that I then ended up on the show, had just hit.
Guest:It was so huge that all the networks like wanted another teen show.
Guest:You need like kids that are 18 and 19 to play 16 so that they can work all the long hours.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:So you don't have to have the teacher on set.
Guest:Yeah, so it wasn't hard for me to get an agent.
Guest:It just was the perfect timing.
Guest:So I got an agent, and then I got Freaks and Geeks.
Guest:Second semester, sophomore year, I did the pilot for Freaks and Geeks.
Marc:And do you remember your audition and everything?
Guest:Yeah, I remember it very clearly.
Marc:And was with Judd?
Guest:Yeah, Judd, Paul, and Jake Caston.
Guest:And Allison Jones had brought me in a bunch for another show-shaped cast called Roswell.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I had made it pretty far on Roswell.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But didn't get the part that went to Katherine Heigl.
Guest:And and so she brought me in straight for those guys.
Guest:And I was reading the part of Lindsay Weir that Linda Cardellini ended up playing.
Guest:And Paul, after my reading, was like, oh, busy.
Guest:This is a we're writing this other part.
Guest:And will you just take a look at it?
Guest:It's going to be in the pilot.
Guest:She's a friend of Lindsay's.
Guest:And we think you could.
Guest:You should read that.
Guest:Take that outside for a few minutes and come back in.
Guest:I was like, okay, cool, whatever.
Guest:And I went out and read it five, I mean, like five, 10 minutes, truthfully.
Guest:The audition was in the Palisades.
Guest:And I was living in Inglewood, which meant the 4.05.
Guest:And it was like getting to be about 5 p.m.
Guest:And all I could think was like, fuck this.
Guest:I'm going to have to drive back to LMU.
Guest:This sucks.
Guest:So Allison came out and she's like, are you ready?
Guest:I was like, yes, I need to go right now.
Guest:And I went in and did it one time, I think.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:The two scenes, the Tim Kelly scenes from the pilot, yeah.
Marc:It's so wild, that show, for its short life, it's so important to so many people.
Marc:I know, it's wild.
Marc:I didn't watch it until much later.
Marc:I didn't see it when it was on originally, because I miss everything.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But I ended up watching the whole series within the last six or seven years.
Marc:I watched it, and I'm like, holy shit, this is my childhood.
Guest:I bet it is.
Marc:Because it took place in like the, what, the 80s or 70s?
Guest:It's supposed to be 1980, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, because I graduated high school in 81.
Marc:So it was like I know all of these people.
Guest:You're Jason Segel.
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:Yeah, I bet you were.
Marc:Yeah, a little.
Marc:I kind of know him now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's an intense guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He and I lost touch, but that's all right.
Marc:He's very positive these days.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Maybe we can get back in touch.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:What, we lost touch on purpose?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Like, yeah, we just had some weirdness.
Marc:It's fine.
Guest:It's all fine.
Marc:I always like that's been my one sort of weirdly because as a fan primarily of people who do things with like every time I have actors in here, I'm always sort of like, so you guys, you still hang out?
Marc:And 90 percent of the time, like, no, I don't talk to him.
Guest:I mean, it's interesting, though, Mark, I'm still friends with like almost all of the women that I've worked with.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like I've like maintained friendships like I've always left every acting job with like a really close.
Marc:Where are you and Katie Holmes at right now?
Guest:She's great.
Guest:Well, I took Michelle from that show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Your relationship seems like I mean, you know, I have friends that I've had for years.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like I don't see them.
Marc:You know, and I really, you know, most of them live in other places and I don't stay in touch with people.
Marc:Well, I'm not, you know, I have a lot of people I know, but I don't take time to spend time with people.
Marc:So I was looking at that vulture piece of that sort of track to your relationship.
Marc:And it's just like all the pictures.
Marc:And I was just like, it's nice.
That's really funny.
Guest:It is nice, but it does take work.
Guest:Like it requires work.
Guest:I mean, you know, I am like, I think it's a, I don't know if it's like my astrological sign or whatever, but I am a keeper.
Guest:Like I am a collector and a keeper.
Guest:Loyal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I like make it a point, you know, and I've had moments where I've fucked up.
Guest:Like I was did a kind of shitty thing to like a good friend of mine from high school.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:A couple of weeks or not a couple of months ago.
Guest:And I had to like own it and be like, I'm sorry I flaked on you like.
Marc:Yeah, because that must be tricky too because there are those people from that part of your life where you're like, well, you're just big time now and there's that whole other element of.
Guest:Yeah, that's tricky.
Marc:You worked it out?
Guest:Yeah, we worked it out.
Guest:By the way, you know that Liz Flayhive?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Do you know that she and I have known each other since I was in high school?
Marc:No.
Guest:Because her now husband and I went to high school.
Marc:Jeff?
Guest:Yeah, we went to high school together.
Marc:In Arizona.
Guest:Uh-huh, and his little brother and I, he was my boyfriend.
Marc:Liz Flahyfe's husband's brother was your boyfriend in high school.
Guest:Yeah, and so she dated Jeff when they were in college, and I was in high school, and I met her then.
Guest:That's so wild.
Guest:Isn't that crazy?
Marc:Well, it's sort of fascinating because of your career that all these people that you've worked, because you've worked in movies and television since you were, what, 18 or 19?
Marc:19, yeah.
Marc:That you kind of grew up with this whole crew.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And on some level, I know you can't think about it every day, but it must be kind of,
Marc:strangely and sadly interesting to see how everybody ended up.
Marc:It's wild, yeah.
Marc:Because some of the people you came up with are fucking bonafide superstars.
Guest:Yeah, huge.
Marc:And some of them have fallen from grace and some of them have just kind of drifted away.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like, yeah, I mean, I guess like, you know, as an outsider, my thought is like, well, what happened to that guy?
Marc:And you're like, what do you, you don't know.
Marc:Right.
Guest:People go on with their lives.
Marc:It's a tough business.
Guest:It's a tough fucking business.
Guest:But even with me sometimes, like, I mean, I've read comments where it's like, oh, I used to love her.
Guest:What happened to her?
Guest:It's like, dude, I'm still here.
Guest:What are you talking about?
Marc:Because no one like knows where to watch anything anymore.
Guest:Well, that's the truth.
Marc:I know.
Marc:What even is television?
Marc:I just did 90 episodes of a show that no one saw.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:That's really funny.
Guest:Yeah, that is true.
Marc:But I have to assume like during, like after, like during Dawson's Creek, was that like the biggest visibility you had when you were younger?
Marc:Was it Dawson's Creek or did it, was it Cougar Town or when did it sort of like, when were you sort of like, hey, there's that girl?
Guest:No, I would say Cougar Town sort of more so than Dawson's Creek.
Guest:I was added to the cast the last two years of Dawson's Creek.
Guest:Those kids were already like astronomical superstars.
Guest:They had been on the cover of Rolling Stone and all that shit.
Marc:There's a couple of them that are sort of like, where are they at?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's interesting.
Guest:It's interesting.
Guest:And it was interesting for me walking into that show coming off of Freaks and Geeks, which is like we all had felt like we were doing such a cool, awesome thing.
Guest:We really did, even at that time.
Guest:And I know that that show has lived on, but we really did feel in the moment like this is special.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then, and it was just like crickets, like no one in the industry fucking cared.
Guest:None of us could get a fucking job after except for Franco, who was like got cast as James Dean.
Guest:So it seemed like that was like a thing.
Guest:And, but you know, like Seth developed that show with Judd undeclared and like put Siegel on it as like a recurring part.
Marc:What about Party Down?
Marc:Wasn't that the next sort of incarnation of Freaks and Geeks?
Marc:No.
Marc:Or was there somebody in it?
Marc:Lizzie Kaplan.
Marc:Okay, that, sorry.
Guest:Did you read the chapter in my book where I was told I was too fat to be that part?
Marc:No.
Marc:Why don't you tell me about it?
Guest:It was real fucking depressing.
Guest:Well, it's just interesting that you brought it up, that you brought that show in particular up.
Guest:But right after I had Birdie, I was really struggling and I had- But you and Lizzie were friends.
Guest:Lizzie and I are good.
Guest:Yeah, Lizzie is Birdie's godmother.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Um, but she actually is really close with my husband.
Guest:That's how we, she and I were on Freaks and Geeks.
Guest:I mean, she was on Freaks and Geeks.
Guest:She did like two episodes of Freaks and Geeks, but she.
Marc:Wasn't Martin on Party Down too?
Guest:Martin was on Party Down.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:You're correct.
Marc:All right.
Guest:Go ahead.
Um,
Guest:But anyway, I had Birdie.
Guest:Financially, we were like in a fucking hole because I had like made a bad real estate thing and like couldn't sell my house.
Guest:And it was a disaster.
Guest:We were so broke.
Guest:I needed to get a job.
Guest:I just had this baby.
Guest:I was like 40 pounds overweight.
Guest:It was a nightmare.
Guest:And I went in for Party Down.
Guest:It was like going to be picked up.
Guest:They were going to do 13 episodes or whatever.
Guest:Rob Thomas and Red with Adam Scott.
Guest:And they were like, you're our girl.
Guest:We're so excited.
Guest:This is amazing.
Guest:I also loved that I was kind of chubby and I was like losing weight because like, you know how like those...
Guest:Improv actors like move here from Chicago.
Guest:And then within a year, they're like skinny and had a nose job.
Guest:And then they're like on SNL.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I just felt like as a character arc on a show about people who are cater waiters trying to make it in this business and like doing like I was just like, that's the reality.
Guest:Like people move here from other cities and then they're like, oh, fuck.
Guest:Like I was a big fish in that other city.
Guest:And now I have to like conform and figure it the fuck out.
Guest:So anyway, we had like...
Guest:They were on board with that, whatever.
Guest:And then the network, it just came, the network.
Marc:Oh, that was your character that you pitched?
Marc:That, like, you know, I just moved here?
Guest:Well, they knew that I was, like, overweight from the baby.
Guest:Rob and also Adam.
Guest:But, you know, like, Rob Thomas, like, he knew.
Guest:And he had just had a kid and whatever.
Guest:And they were like, you're who we want for the show.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:It's fine.
Guest:We don't care about your weight.
Guest:It's fine.
Guest:And then Stars was like, we care about her weight.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And yeah, and my agent called me and I, I mean, I remember it so clearly.
Guest:I was breastfeeding my kid.
Guest:I was breastfeeding Bertie and she was like, Biz, I have terrible news.
Guest:It's not going to go our way.
Guest:And it's the wait and the network can't see past it.
Marc:The one moment that an agent's honest, it has to be about that.
Guest:I was like in, I'm kind of like into it.
Guest:I'm into that.
Guest:She was honest with me.
Guest:And, um, and then Rob Thomas also like wrote me an email that was really kind and is actually in the book.
Guest:I asked him, I emailed him whenever I was publishing the book and I asked for his permission and he, he allowed me to put the email that he wrote in the book.
Guest:But it was a really, really fucking disheartening moment in my career.
Guest:Like among, I mean, many moments of like, Oh fuck this.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But it sucked.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what, what, what turned around eventually to get you out of the hole and stuff?
Guest:I got Cougar Town.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:Like, like a few months, a few months later and acting's hard, man.
Guest:Acting's the worst.
Guest:And Bill Lawrence, you know, is married to an actress, Krista Miller.
Guest:And I remember I was so insecure about my weight going into like the network test and
Guest:And I said something to him about it.
Guest:I was like, I just want you to know I was wearing like 17 pairs of Spanx.
Guest:And like, you know what I mean?
Guest:Like I was like trying so fucking hard because I still was like a little bit up.
Guest:Like I wasn't back to like fighting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My fighting weight.
Guest:And and I said something to him about it.
Guest:And he's like, no one.
Guest:No one cares.
Guest:What are you talking about?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I don't even I don't even see it.
Guest:Just stop.
Marc:It's fine.
Marc:This isn't that part.
Marc:This isn't that.
Marc:This isn't that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We got Courtney Cox over here.
Guest:We're fine.
Guest:It's cool if you're Chevy.
Marc:I'll tell you, man, it's like it's the acting thing, the waiting because you're at so much at the disposal of other people's sort of, you know, flip opinions.
Marc:And, you know, like it could it could be one person in a room saying, like, I don't like her hands and you're fucking out.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:It's like it's so fucked up.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:And being on the other side of it, like, you know, even when my husband was doing his movie and casting his movie and like hearing the things that fucking.
Marc:Which one?
Guest:He just, I feel pretty.
Guest:That he directed that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With his longtime partner, Abby.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You were so good in that movie.
Marc:Oh, thanks.
Marc:And you know what the weird thing about that movie is?
Marc:Is that, look, I know Amy for a long time.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And it got such pre-press for that thing.
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:It was so brutal for me.
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:And you know what?
Marc:I don't believe it.
Marc:It was so weird because I just, like two, three weeks ago, I was on a plane.
Guest:That's now everyone's seeing it now.
Guest:But I like Amy a lot.
Marc:and I always have and I watched it and like she did such a great job she's great in the movie and like who wrote it did your husband yeah he wrote it with his writing partner that was really an amazing thing he did because the conceit of it's ridiculous
Marc:but it's performed so humanly that you're willing to accept it and I'm not an easy guy to do that with like you know this sort of magic sort of genie hit her head shit but like once they start acting it and he didn't go for any broad comedy that I was sort of like wow I mean they're really doing this and I emailed I emailed Amy like the next day early in the morning I just emailed you were amazing in that movie and she goes what a nice email to wake up to
Guest:Aw.
Marc:Because she takes so much shit.
Marc:So much shit.
Marc:But she acted the fuck out of that thing.
Guest:She is so fucking good in that movie.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:I know.
Marc:And you were so good.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:The Friends were so good.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:I was happy to see you.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:But the comedy was so human based.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They wanted it to be very grounded.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was a real kind of marvel like that.
Marc:Because I think outside of the feminist backlash of the movie before it came out.
Guest:It was a feminist backlash to a fucking trailer.
Marc:right like the dumbest thing of all time that on top of the sort of conceit of it yeah like you know probably alienated audiences but i thought and michelle is so good what the fuck it's amazing she's just sort of like emoti kind of raw nerve of an actress and she just does this full-on bit she just builds this fucking wacko character but still believable yeah
Guest:I feel like also truly because Mark and Abby directed it, I think that's a huge reason why Michelle was willing to go there and do that.
Marc:Her comedy chops were so surprising.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's really funny.
Guest:Also, like, I mean, I said this in the Vanity Fair article about her, I think.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, like, it's always, you know, she gets pegged as this thing a lot of times.
Guest:But, like, I know her as very goofy and silly.
Guest:And, like, we're able to have a lot of, you know, moments where it's not like us crying.
Marc:No, of course.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:I just think she's.
Guest:She just, like, doesn't put that out there professionally a lot.
Marc:But I think she's just one of those people as an actress, she can go pretty fucking deep.
Marc:She can go so deep.
Marc:And very transformative.
Marc:She's the rawest nerve.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And there's like very few people that can, you know, really kind of keep doing that.
Guest:I know.
Marc:And Casey's another one.
Marc:And the two of them in that movie, that was fucking nuts.
Guest:God, that scene.
Guest:That fucking scene.
Marc:Where they meet each other?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Too much.
Guest:It's too much.
Guest:I was just like sobbing hysterically watching that.
Marc:I'm getting choked up thinking about it.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's really intense.
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Marc:It is.
Marc:But back to you.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Here I am.
Marc:That was kind of about you and your husband.
Marc:Yeah, it was.
Marc:And your performance.
Marc:But like, and also I thought you were great in Vice Principals.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:I mean, that's a funny role.
Marc:I mean, I think, you know, you're kind of, you're one of those people that you're kind of, you
Marc:you're, I don't know if it's a sort of like swagger, you know, that there's a, but no, there's a confidence to the characters you play.
Marc:And it's like, it reads as human because you know, like a lot of it's coming from sort of weird insecurity.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But that role seemed to, that must've been a blast to do.
Guest:It was so fun.
Guest:Well, basically what happened was that post Cougar Town, I was like, what the fuck am I going to do?
Guest:Do I just like jump on another network show and try to like make a buck or whatever?
Guest:And then I got a call from my TV agent and he's like, um, Danny McBride's doing this new show for HBO with David Gordon Green and Jody Hill.
Guest:We don't know what it is, but like...
Guest:We don't even know what the part is.
Guest:No one knows.
Guest:They just have these sides that you have to audition.
Guest:I'm at a place, network television-wise, where I don't have to audition for stuff, which is nice.
Guest:At this point, fucking 20 years later, hey, how you doing?
Guest:But you'd have to go in and audition for those guys.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:We don't know what it is.
Guest:I was like, are you kidding me?
Guest:Danny McBride?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:David Gordon Green?
Guest:Jody Hill?
Guest:Fuck yes.
Marc:It'd be hilarious and weird.
Guest:I'll go audition for those guys.
Guest:And I went in like truly every actress I know, we all went in for that show.
Guest:And none of us knew what it was.
Guest:We had no clue.
Marc:I think if they even told you what it was, it'd be hard to wrap your head around.
Guest:Yeah, I think so too.
Guest:And then also it was a little bit like...
Guest:I kind of don't care like how big the part is or what I like I just want to work I just wanted to work with interesting people and with those guys have such a vision and Danny I have to say and then we became really tight like really close friends and great guy he is truly one of my favorite people that I've ever worked with and yeah
Guest:And like doesn't get the credit that I think he deserves for being kind of like a visionary in terms of the things that he like comedy, the comedy that he does.
Guest:And that it's crazy, truly subversive.
Guest:And like people just think he is that guy.
Guest:They think that he's like some fucking redneck.
Marc:No, he's like a sweetheart.
Guest:He's a sweetheart, but he's also like turning it on its head.
Guest:And he like is able to do these shows where the people who sort of identify as that, you know, Kenny Powers or his character and vice principals, like also enjoy it.
Guest:And then maybe are like a little bit confused by what's happening with their wires.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And I think that people I don't know.
Guest:I feel like he doesn't get the credit he
Marc:Well, yeah, because the humanity he finds in these completely overcompensating men.
Guest:It's kind of bonkers.
Marc:It's bonkers because the only reason they're appealing is you can feel the insecurity in every action.
Marc:He's got that weird gif that I think Carell has it too and Gervais when he acts, where you're like, these guys are horrible, but they're so sad.
Guest:So sad and desperate.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then also like the fact that like Danny wrote that show and it came out like right before Trump was elected.
Guest:But like it was almost like he fucking knew what was about to happen.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Like I felt like it was just...
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:I feel like that show's pretty dope.
Marc:Walton was great.
Guest:Walton Coggins is like truly- I mean, what the fuck?
Guest:One of the greatest actors.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:Also an amazing person.
Marc:Yeah, I'd love to talk to him.
Guest:So you don't have to be a fucking asshole to be like a truly awesome actor and performer.
Marc:I think a lot of them, I find that I don't talk to that many actors, but I don't find them, usually they're not assholes.
Marc:At worst, they're bores.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But you haven't been on sets with them as a woman.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:I just mean that sometimes they, for whatever reason, like John C. Reilly told me, he's like, I don't want to talk about myself.
Marc:So they are aware, like some of the guys that I've met and talked to, a lot of them have a lot of space.
Marc:They don't like talking about themselves.
Marc:So I'm sure they're nice people, but I'm saying it's part of their thing.
Marc:It's like, I do my job.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:You know, I don't know you, but you have that kind of thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just know from personal experience from being on sets for so long with so many different types of men and how they behave and like what they're able to get away with.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I bet from like from 19 years old, you've been seeing it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Bad.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:Maybe the tide's changing, though, a little bit.
Guest:Maybe like the message is getting received that like bad behavior is no longer going to be rewarded or just or maybe not even rewarded.
Guest:Like we're not going to turn a blind eye anymore.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And do you have like a lot of things that you just don't talk about?
Guest:What do you mean?
Marc:In terms of experiences with these people that you're sort of like, you know, like, well, that was sort of dicey, but, you know, I'm going to let that go.
Guest:I mean, I think so.
Guest:I mean, I put some stuff in the book, which I was like, why the fuck not?
Guest:But yeah, but then I guess.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think that there's a thing that's happening now where we're all sort of aware and we're like, OK, like we're look I'm looking at you, dude.
Guest:I think that the thing what I'm saying with Walton is that he's like a very serious actor.
Guest:He's like very serious about the job and is really good at it and doesn't build any other bullshit around it to make himself feel bigger.
Guest:or confident or like you know what i mean like so frequently like the i don't know the dudes are just like like there's it's so aggro and like they feel like they have to like be dicks to people on set or like i'm in my zone like i can't look at you right now can you you know what i'm sorry can you just please not yeah you know what i mean like that kind of fucking yeah yeah i don't understand male yeah vibes
Marc:Well, just that entitled diva behavior on behalf of anybody I never quite got.
Guest:Me neither.
Marc:Even the excess of it.
Marc:I'm the guy now, so I'm going to have these girls coming into the trailer.
Marc:I need this in my trailer, a full bar, a jacuzzi.
Marc:I don't understand that shit.
Marc:I want to see your writer.
Marc:My writer is almonds.
Marc:You want almonds?
Marc:Almonds and Diet Pepsi.
Guest:Diet Pepsi.
Guest:Are you worried about drinking Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi?
Marc:I don't do it during.
Marc:I just find that there's something about Diet Pepsi when I'm doing a show, when I'm doing stand-up.
Marc:It's sort of like my Red Bull.
Marc:Oh, okay, okay, okay.
Marc:It's different than Diet Coke.
Marc:Somehow or another.
Guest:You just get nervous about that.
Guest:Aspartame?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:yeah i don't know well i don't drink it every day who the hell knows i wrote i read like one article seven years ago yeah i know that one yeah where it's like it's got the same components as formaldehyde and you're gonna lose your your brain's gonna rot yeah yeah game sack sent me a bunch of pictures he was one of the producers on freaks and geeks and he just sent me a bunch of pictures from that time and almost in almost everyone i'm holding a diet coke every single one and then the fear set in yeah i guess i read that article never again
Marc:Yeah, I know that whole thing.
Marc:Then there was a political component to it that aspartame was discovered by Donald Rumsfeld.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, I know that.
Marc:Yeah, I know that one.
Guest:You're like, but give me my fucking Diet Pepsi.
Marc:Well, that's ultimately the decision you make.
Marc:It's sort of like, all right, that all may be true, but maybe I'm not susceptible to that.
Guest:Maybe not.
Marc:So how are you preparing for busy tonight?
Guest:Well, we've been in the room now for a couple of weeks.
Guest:And before that, I was like working every day, hiring people, meeting with people, figuring shit out, getting it all put together, taking meetings, meetings, meetings.
Marc:What's the format?
Guest:Well, it's a half hour, four nights a week, you know, three act structure.
Guest:So yeah, one guest per show for one segment.
Guest:Yeah, probably like two.
Guest:So like the first half of the first segment will be like what we're kind of loosely calling a nonologue.
Guest:I'm not going to do.
Guest:I'm not a stand up, but I'm also a person that loves to talk.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not going to do like a traditional hard joke monologue vibe, but we are going to like go over the day's events and things that we want to chat about.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then we'll bring out the guest.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He or she will come out and we'll have a little catch up with friends.
Guest:I'm not going to do like the traditional pre-interview.
Guest:Tell me about your trip to Belize.
Guest:What happened with the sloth?
Marc:Tell me.
Marc:And you know exactly what happened?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I don't know.
Guest:That just doesn't interest me.
Marc:I'd like to know what happened with the sloth.
Guest:I mean, it was wild.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So and so and then we'll go to a commercial.
Guest:We'll come back hopefully with the guests still if the guest has to split because they're very important.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And their time.
Marc:They got to go down the hall and do a podcast.
Guest:Then we'll do like a tape pre-taped segment.
Guest:If we have time with the guests, maybe we'll get to do a pre-taped segment earlier in the day with them.
Guest:That's something we can throw to you.
Marc:So it's a talk show.
Guest:It's a fucking talk show.
Marc:Straight up.
Marc:No panel.
Marc:No panel.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:I didn't want a panel.
Marc:Well, I mean, I think you're going to be great at it.
Guest:Thanks, Mark.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's exciting because you're a curious, interested person.
Marc:You have ideas and opinions and you're a good conversationalist.
Guest:All those things.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I wish you the best of luck with that.
Guest:Oh, thank you.
Marc:And the book, which is great.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:Two pieces I read of it.
Guest:You don't have to read the rest.
Marc:No, no, it was sitting there, and I'm like, I gotta read that, but I had a million things going on, and I thought like.
Guest:It was your birthday.
Marc:It was my birthday, but also I do believe, there's only been a couple times where I've read the books about people who I was talking to.
Marc:One of them was Kim Gordon.
Marc:Ugh, fucking best book ever.
Marc:Yeah, but she's not that candid and she's not a big talker.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:I knew a little bit about her, but I read her book because I wanted to at least know in conversation where we could go.
Marc:So I had some place to go.
Marc:Usually, I just like to have a conversation.
Marc:If people have stories, they'll tell me the stories.
Marc:But with her, I was like, thank God I read the book.
Marc:because I was able to draw her out a bit.
Guest:That makes so much sense.
Guest:I've hung out with Kim a little bit, which is the joy of my life.
Marc:No, she's great.
Guest:But yeah, that tracks for me.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I did not read your book out of like, what the fuck is this?
Marc:I didn't read it because I don't want to lead Busy Phillips.
Guest:Yeah, why would you?
Marc:Yeah, it turns out that was a good instinct on my part.
Guest:You had the right call.
Marc:Yeah, well, it was great talking to you.
Guest:It was so nice to talk to you, Mark.
Thank you.
Marc:Wasn't that fun?
Marc:Wasn't that fun?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Great.
Marc:As I mentioned before, Busy's book, This Will Only Hurt a Little, comes out tomorrow.
Marc:The new show, Busy Tonight, premieres October 28th on E!
Marc:Go get your copy of Waiting for the Punch wherever you get books, or you can get it, as I said earlier, you can go to markmarinbook.com or you can go to wtfpod.com and click on the book link or just go to a good old-fashioned bookstore.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Do we cover it?
Marc:I'm going to try to play.
Marc:I need to practice.
Marc:I need to practice.
Marc:Boomer lives!