Episode 948 - Sir Paul McCartney
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Paul McCartney, a Beatle.
Marc:One of two Beatles left.
Marc:I talked to him.
Marc:Now, it's going to be a bit different than the regular format because this was a live event, and that was the deal.
Marc:I was asked by Paul and his people to moderate a live event with Paul, me and Paul, on stage.
Marc:It was about 600 people or so, maybe more.
Marc:I'm not sure, but it was for Capitol Records.
Marc:It was the fifth annual Capitol Congress where Capitol Records basically takes over the Arclight Foundation
Marc:movie complex over there, or a couple of theaters anyways, and runs events all day.
Marc:And Paul McCartney, the Beatle, was the surprise guest, and I was the guy who got to do the talking to him.
Marc:I was able to interview Paul.
Marc:But I just want to set you up a little bit so you know what you're getting into.
Marc:It is a live event.
Marc:There was a large audience there.
Marc:Paul and I were both aware of that.
Marc:And being entertainers that we are, you know, there was an element of involving the audience in terms of how we paced our conversation, which happens in a live event.
Marc:I have not done...
Marc:a live WTF in a long time and I've only done a few one-on-one live events that were later published as podcasts and one of the best ones really one of the best podcasts that I've ever done in a lot of ways and a monumental moment for me was doing this type of thing with Terry Gross several years ago at BAM in Brooklyn for a radio event and that turned out to be a great time as did Paul
Marc:Now, obviously, we all love the Beatles.
Marc:And if you say that you don't love the Beatles, then there's clearly, you know, you really haven't processed it properly or you're taking a stand for something.
Marc:There's something fundamentally a little flawed if you can dismiss the Beatles all at once.
Marc:You might say, like, I didn't like that one album, but even that's weird.
Marc:Honestly, and I'm not trying to to be judgmental.
Marc:I'm just saying that Beatles songs are like they're almost like Christmas songs in a way where, you know, you know, I'm a Jew, but I know most of the Christmas songs, at least the first verse.
Marc:They're just in your head.
Marc:They're they're almost biological Beatles songs in the brain.
Marc:It's almost biological.
Marc:They're just they've they're all in there.
Marc:Now, some of us put effort into getting them all in there.
Marc:Others, they just in there.
Marc:You don't even know how they got in there.
Marc:There's an argument to be made that maybe we're we're actually born with the raw elements of Beatles songs in our heads.
Marc:They just they're ready to gel.
Marc:You know, they're in there when you're born.
Marc:They just don't have the form.
Marc:And then, you know, as soon as you hear maybe two notes of any Beatles song, magically, the song just disappears.
Marc:forms itself in your brain at a very early age sometimes a prenatal I think is what happens and then within the first year your brain just loads up with most of the Beatles songs now obviously as an infant you can't be responsible for say revolution number nine or some of the more esoteric stuff perhaps a couple of the bits on a magical mystery tour but most of the other stuff is in there you can't sing along with revolution number nine really number nine number nine
Marc:Number nine.
Marc:Number nine.
Marc:Or perhaps, but even the melody of flying on Magical Mystery Tour.
Marc:Not a lot of words, but how can you forget that?
Marc:That's probably the most prenatal Beatles song is the instrumental flying from, I believe, Magical Mystery Tour.
Marc:I reacted not unlike I did with President Obama when I was offered the opportunity to talk to him and Paul.
Marc:I was sort of like, oh man, really?
Marc:You know, like, I mean, what am I going to, how am I, what am I going to get?
Marc:I mean, what am I going to, really, how am I going to do that?
Marc:And it happened again with Paul.
Marc:It happened with President Obama.
Marc:He was president and Paul is a beetle.
Marc:Ultimately, I would think a beetle, probably bigger in some ways.
Marc:The beetles are, you know, the president all the time and they're magnanimous and all loving and they, you know, they,
Marc:they don't govern per se but they they have governed us through many feelings and emotions and periods in our lives and they continue to do so for generations and generations not going to go away but i don't need to plug the beatles the beatles really are the they and they still for whatever reason are the greatest they really are so why why would i be adverse to uh
Marc:to this amazing opportunity to talk to Paul.
Marc:Let's talk about this event.
Marc:Brendan told me what was up, that the Paul thing was going to happen.
Marc:We've been sort of dancing around it for a while, but this live event seemed like the perfect opportunity.
Marc:And I freaked out.
Marc:I'm like, okay, I'll do it.
Marc:And then I just proceeded to freak out and make myself sick because I was sort of like, why?
Marc:What am I going to, how am I, what hasn't he talked about?
Marc:This is a Beatle that's, you know, he's talked about everything Beatles.
Marc:He's talked about everything Paul.
Marc:You know, he's talked about everything.
Marc:There's no, I'm not going to find a new way in.
Marc:I'm not going to, I'm not going to like get like what I do here in the garage.
Marc:I'm not like, I'm making all these excuses to freak myself out.
Marc:I listened to all the Beatles stuff that I liked.
Marc:I listened to all the wing stuff that I listened to later McCartney.
Marc:I listened to the new album, Egypt Station.
Marc:I do that to myself sometimes when I have musical guests that are, you know, have a big discography who are prolific.
Marc:But this is this is McCartney, man.
Marc:And, you know, it was great to listen to some of that solo stuff, some of it for the first time.
Marc:It was mind blowing, but I was still freaking out.
Marc:And finally, Brendan sort of talked me down.
Marc:He's like, what difference does it make, man?
Marc:What difference does it make?
Marc:You're talking to a Beatle.
Marc:I mean, this is Paul McCartney.
Marc:I mean, just go enjoy the conversation with Paul McCartney.
Marc:And I'm like, yeah, man, yeah.
Marc:That's what I'm going to do.
Marc:Who cares what gets uncovered or who cares what's been covered or anything else?
Marc:I'm going to go hang out with Paul McCartney, Sir Paul McCartney.
Marc:But I'm still a little weird.
Marc:I'm still a little weird.
Marc:I didn't understand why I wasn't more excited.
Marc:I didn't understand initially why I was still a little freaked out.
Marc:And then, like, I'll tell you guys this.
Marc:You know, I don't know that I told Paul in so many words, but but, you know, when you grow up with the Beatles, when you were a Beatles nut and really leaned into them a lot when you were a kid and put all that in your head and had a relationship with the Beatles, you have your Beatle.
Marc:Yes, people.
Marc:I'm 54 years old.
Marc:So, you know, I had my Beatle and I did.
Marc:And and this was really what was at the core of my anxiety.
Marc:And also my my weird reaction was my Beatle was was John.
Marc:And and I'm surprised that it stuck so long.
Marc:There was part of me that's sort of like, I'm going to interview Paul.
Marc:But, you know, Paul's Paul.
Marc:I mean, you know, John was my Beatle.
Marc:John, man, the raw one, the, you know, the tormented one, the one that wore his heart on his sleeve, the intense one.
Marc:I mean, John was my Beatle.
Marc:I mean, I was devastated when John was killed.
Marc:I was, you know, I had gone before he was killed.
Marc:I had gone at some point when I was younger to just look at the Dakota building.
Marc:I just wanted to run into John in New York City.
Marc:I just, John was my guy.
Marc:But that was sort of at it, and once I resolved that and was like, dude, dude, it's Paul McCartney.
Marc:I mean, it's Lennon and McCartney.
Marc:Yeah, they're still part of me.
Marc:It's like, yeah, but John was my guy.
Marc:It's like, well, shut up and go talk to Paul, will you?
Marc:I mean, come on.
Marc:It's Paul McCartney.
Marc:But you have these relationships, you know?
Marc:But once I saw Paul...
Marc:People become people very quickly for me, especially after doing this for so long, you know, having them over to my house, sitting around with them before and after a talk, taking pictures, you know, having conversations after the, you know, this was not going to happen with Paul.
Marc:This was Paul McCartney, Sir Paul.
Marc:So I'm at the event and we're in some holding area and there's other events going on and we're waiting for Paul.
Marc:He's running late.
Marc:And I've got my notes, and I kind of put some stuff together because I got about an hour with them in this event.
Marc:It's about an hour, and it's live.
Marc:You want to be prepared.
Marc:You don't want to wing it in a live situation, really.
Marc:You want to have a place to go.
Marc:And I'm just hanging out.
Marc:Sarah's there, Sarah the Painter.
Marc:You know, Paul's publicist.
Marc:And and then Paul comes.
Marc:He shows up.
Marc:He looks great.
Marc:Spry on top of it.
Marc:Quick, you know, moving around like well groomed.
Marc:Looks like Paul McCartney.
Marc:And he's over there.
Marc:And, you know, I put some thought into how I wanted to introduce myself.
Marc:And there's a lot of people around him.
Marc:And he's like, is there a place we can.
Marc:have some water, get, you know, a mirror or something.
Marc:And I'm like, can we get him a mirror?
Marc:Yeah, I hadn't met him yet.
Marc:And he didn't, so I just was like already sort of like, can we, can we get the, Paul needs a water, whatever.
Marc:Like, and there was a lot of people around.
Marc:And he just, I think in that moment, assumed I was somebody working at the event.
Marc:I said, hi, I'm Mark Marin.
Marc:I'm going to be interviewing.
Marc:He's like, oh, you know, you're the guy, you know.
Marc:And I don't claim to do it, Paul.
Marc:I don't do any real impressions.
Marc:But I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And then my big plan was that this is what I said to Paul.
Marc:The first thing I said to him is like, yeah, I'm real excited about this.
Marc:But I was told that the Beatles are off limits.
Marc:Is that true?
Marc:And he went, no.
Marc:It was like one of those laughs, right?
Marc:All right, smart ass.
Marc:But I got a laugh, got a laugh out of Paul right there, first line in.
Marc:And that was good.
Marc:It was a nice icebreaker.
Marc:We talked a little bit, you know, not about anything.
Marc:And we just we went right to the side door and I said, it's going to be great.
Marc:He told me which where he wanted to sit.
Marc:He wanted to sit on the stage right.
Marc:So I sat on stage left and, you know, I went out there and I just introduced him.
Marc:Place went crazy, sat down and we had the talk.
Marc:Me and Paul McCartney had the talk.
Marc:So now I take you to the fifth annual Capitol Congress for Capitol Records event to a live conversation I had with Sir Paul McCartney of Wings fame and the Beatles, man, the Beatles.
Marc:And also he's got this new album, Egypt Station, comes out tomorrow, September 7th.
Marc:Get it wherever you get music.
Marc:Okay, Paul McCartney and me now.
Guest:Paul McCartney ladies and gentlemen, come on out.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you very much.
Guest:Nice to see you.
Guest:Nice to see you, Mark.
Guest:Sir Paul McCartney.
Guest:Yes, sir.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Now, being a knight, what does that enable you to do?
Marc:Can you go to the British Museum and take out armor?
Guest:No, but I can drive a herd of sheep through the city of London.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a real thing.
Guest:Well, what it is, they give you the freedom.
Guest:It's slightly different.
Guest:They give you the freedom of the city.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my daughter, Stella, said, what is it?
Guest:Did you get anything?
Guest:I said, I don't know.
Guest:I've got to think.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:So she looked it up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she said, yeah, it is.
Guest:I am entitled to drive a flock of sheep through the city of London.
Guest:I'm surprised Capital didn't think of that for a publicity thing.
Marc:There's time.
LAUGHTER
Marc:and i another question i have because uh you know i've talked to um i i talked to keith richards not too long ago and uh and i and i read in the book that you guys hung out a bit and and i was thinking that maybe we need a dark knight is there any way we can sort of rally to get keith richards a knighthood yeah i think he deserves one yeah do you still hang out with that guy
Guest:No, that was the last time that he was talking about we were on holiday in the Turks and Caicos.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I discovered that he was along the beach.
Guest:So I used to make the journey after lunch.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we had some fun times.
Guest:Was it tense at first?
Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I've known him forever.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, because we started off at the same time and we wrote the first single for them and stuff, you know.
Guest:So we've known each other a long time, but I hadn't seen him for quite a while.
Guest:But our careers had happened and now we suddenly got together.
Guest:And it was funny, man.
Guest:It was hilarious.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because the conversation, of course, you know, got to sort of crazy stuff.
Guest:Yeah, like what?
Guest:Like what?
Guest:Well, we were designing portable dog kennels that were inflatable.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:It's a pretty good idea, we thought, you know.
Guest:A lot of weed involved.
Guest:What, in the kennels?
Guest:In the creating of it.
Guest:In the creative process it was required.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We got around to kind of, well, if you had one, you could custom make them for like Dalmatians would be Polkadot.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:I thought it was a pretty good idea.
Marc:Well, this is an exciting transition for Keith.
Marc:I think hearing about this, I had no idea that that would be a business idea that he would come up with.
Marc:And did you follow through?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No.
Marc:Okay, good.
Marc:That's probably better off.
Marc:Now, I was surprised that back in the day when you were all in London together that there was a lot of open communication between the Beatles and Stones in terms of who's going to drop what when.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Because people thought, you know, the kind of legend grew that it was like rivalry and everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it was about the opposite.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:So like you say, you know, if we had a record coming out August the 28th, we would ring them, sort of say, have you got anything coming out?
Guest:They'd say, yeah, we've got something coming out, you know, August the 17th.
Guest:We'd say, okay, we'll put ours back a bit.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, it was nice.
Yeah.
Guest:And that was a really very friendly scene.
Guest:I remember one evening, we used to hang out at each other's places.
Guest:And I was at, I think Mick was living with Keith at the same time and a few other people.
Guest:And I was there hanging out and they were at a studio doing a recording session.
Guest:And they came back from the session and they had an acetate, which is how you used to kind of bring you stuff in those days.
Guest:And it was Ruby Tuesday.
Guest:So we stuck it on.
Guest:It was like, I like that one.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, you know, so it was that friendly.
Marc:That's sort of like, well, that changes everything about the way I think about everything.
Marc:There was a comic years ago.
Guest:It was funny because he used to do this joke where he'd go like, you know, some kids play cowboys and Indians.
Guest:I used to play Beatles and Stones.
Marc:And I don't know which ones the Beatles would be.
Marc:I'm assuming the Indians, but it doesn't matter.
Marc:It's probably not a politically appropriate joke anymore, but...
Marc:But nonetheless, it was back in the day.
Guest:You've got to be careful.
Marc:I do.
Marc:I do.
Marc:Do you feel that yourself?
Marc:We were the Cowboys.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Yeah, I think that's true.
Marc:Stealth Cowboys.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, when you see the Stones, is there any part of you that thinks like, I wish I was still kept the band together?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but unfortunately, two of mine are dead.
Guest:I know that.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's not going to be possible.
Guest:But no, I know what you mean.
Guest:I know your question.
Guest:You know, but I mean, just...
Marc:there was a moment there that's all i'm saying yeah yeah like because obviously you still tour and everything and you've got guys you've been playing with for longer than you played with the beatles really true yeah that's but but is there like when you see the stones now do you do like i guess my question is do you do you think like um wow uh they're still doing those songs but or do you do you think are you happy for them like i don't know i'm just yeah you know i love
Guest:The Stones.
Guest:I've always loved them.
Guest:I've always gone to see the shows through the years.
Guest:And I saw them not that long ago.
Guest:They're The Stones.
Guest:Right?
Guest:You know, we were at that old cello thing together.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So...
Guest:So we went in a little bit early to catch them.
Guest:And they're great guys.
Guest:We go back a long way.
Guest:We do, yeah.
Guest:And there was never really rivalry.
Guest:But to your question, hey, you're kidding me?
Guest:It would be fantastic if we had the Beatles together to tour.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That would be nice.
Guest:Wouldn't it?
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:I don't think it's going to happen.
Guest:But do you talk to Ringo at all?
Guest:No, I never talk to him.
Guest:Yeah, of course I do, yeah.
Marc:Because you guys are the only guys that have the memories you have now, right?
Guest:Yeah, that is sort of what's great about it, you know, and we do, you know, talk about all those memories.
Guest:Oh, I was at dinner the other few weeks ago in London, and he was there with his wife Barbara, and we were talking, and it was like very lively conversation.
Guest:intelligent conversation, lots of jokes.
Guest:And Tom Hanks was there with his wife, Rita.
Guest:How does that happen?
Guest:He's just hanging out too?
Guest:Come on, man.
Guest:We hang out with the best.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Tommy, Tom and me.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Both got something wrong with our fingers.
Guest:No.
Guest:So we were talking and it was very scintillating conversation.
Guest:You know, it was really nice.
Guest:And while I'm sitting across from Ringo and I sort of say, wow, me and this guy go back a long way.
Guest:And my wife, Nancy, said, is that it?
Guest:Because, you know, they expected me to have a punchline round, by the way.
Guest:But I was just, it hit me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It hit me, you know.
Guest:I said, well, I mean, what I mean is, you know, I was just some kid growing up in Liverpool.
Guest:Then I got in this group and we went on tour.
Guest:And...
Guest:I'd never roomed with anyone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, we didn't go to college.
Guest:So this was the first time.
Guest:So I was like in a room with this guy who I scarcely knew who was Ringo.
Guest:And so just the memories of all of that.
Guest:I mean, I was just saying at this dinner, he was an insomniac.
Guest:He was.
Guest:And I could go to sleep.
Guest:But he was like up all night kind of thing, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was just remembering silly little things like that.
Guest:They weren't particularly funny, but they were cool memories for me.
Marc:How many memories?
Marc:You've been a public person, a famous person for a long fucking time, man.
Marc:It's true, man.
Marc:Do you have any memories before?
Marc:Do you remember the transition where you're like, holy shit, I've got to learn how to do this.
Marc:Be a famous person.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You do.
Guest:I mean, the good thing was that the Beatles didn't really get famous till we were about 20.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I had 20 years in Liverpool before that, where I could not get arrested.
Guest:I couldn't get in a club.
Guest:I couldn't get a girlfriend.
Guest:Nothing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it happened right on time.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:i know i mean it was just it was real life you know and you just did things that people did you know you travel by buses and stuff so uh regular people stuff normal people imagine that you doing that stuff come on and the thing is you know i i actually still do that that's what i heard you take the subway sometimes yeah and and does anyone bother you on subways don't look at each other that's true yes
Guest:i know because they're all in screens these days anyways they really don't notice me yeah why do you do that just to to test it out no no it's actually because i like it oh i've always had this thing even when we're famous i've always liked to kind of dip into real life yeah you know so i will walk to a place or i'll drive myself to a place and
Marc:So I listened to the new record, All of It.
Marc:And it's a beautiful record.
Marc:It's a Paul McCartney record.
Marc:And I did a lot of research for this conversation.
Marc:I listened to every Beatles song and every Wing song.
Marc:I've been up for weeks.
Marc:But when you do a record, because I've talked to Keith, I've talked to people like Roger Waters, Neil Young and stuff.
Marc:And when you do a record like Egypt Station, now, do you think this is the best work you're doing of your life right now?
Marc:Or how do you look at it?
Guest:That's kind of difficult, you know, because I was in the Beatles.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I'm happy to hear that on some level.
Marc:So you at some point had to learn how to compete with yourself and accept that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, when I do a live show, I do Beatles songs and I know that's what the audience wants.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I like making music.
Guest:I like writing songs.
Guest:So I make a new album.
Guest:And yeah, I'm trying to do the best album I can make.
Guest:But in a live concert, as I say, you know, I will say to the audience sometimes, I'll say, we know what you like, you know.
Guest:We know the songs you like.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because, like, if we do an old Beatles song, the place lights up with all your phones.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's like the galaxy, you know, stars.
Guest:So if we do a new one, it's a black hole.
Guest:So we know, you know, you know.
Guest:But I said, well, we're going to do it anyway.
Guest:And we do them.
Guest:And you've got to remember, there are a lot of people in the audience who want to hear your new stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, I've got kind of quite a range.
Guest:I've got like a family audience.
Guest:So you've got little kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they know the words better than I do.
Guest:To the old songs.
Guest:To the old songs, yeah.
Guest:What is that?
Marc:I don't mind.
Marc:This is a weird thing.
Marc:My producer, he's got a kid who's like nine.
Marc:And the kid, he doesn't, no one had to sell him on the Beatles, but he loves the Beatles immediately.
Marc:Do you know, was it in your mind that not only are grownups going to like this and teenagers, but five-year-olds are going to love the Beatles?
Marc:I mean, what is that magic?
Marc:I mean, can you explain it?
Guest:You know, I asked myself that because it's a very interesting question.
Guest:Why does it lasted?
Guest:Because we thought we had 10 years top whack and then it would all just fade out.
Guest:But it kept going.
Guest:It kept coming.
Guest:And only thing I can think is when I do the old songs, I find them very memorable.
Guest:You know, I can remember all the words like that.
Guest:Whereas the new songs, I've got to kind of think about it.
Guest:I've got to learn them and stuff.
Guest:I just think we hit some kind of a role.
Guest:Clearly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you know...
Guest:It's just we were so sort of interested in making records and so sort of privileged to make records that we always tried to make the next one better than the last one.
Guest:And I think in doing that, the structure of them, it's always very simple.
Guest:The Beatles things are hardly ever, even the kind of complicated ones, they're sort of simple.
Guest:I don't think there's any extra fat on them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But there are some complicated chords in there.
Marc:I can't play all of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'll teach you later.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:But like you created a sort of the type of pop that you guys were playing and with the chords you were playing was sort of new for the time.
Marc:The melodies, you may think they're simple.
Marc:Here I'm telling you, they're not, Paul.
Marc:They are very complex and mystical.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Because when you listen to this stuff, because when I listened to your first two solo albums recently, like yesterday, I listened to the first Beatles album that I had was the Beatles' second album.
Marc:For some reason, I was obsessed with the song Roll Over Beethoven.
Marc:I was obsessed with Chuck Berry.
Marc:But do you find that there are people that you respected and looked up to and revered when you were younger whose influence has really kind of moved all the way through all of your music?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:Because I hear Little Richard still.
Guest:Little Richard's always there with me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's always there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's the little screamy voice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's something I just loved.
Guest:I love his records, you know.
Guest:And I wanted to do that.
Guest:So that gave me a sort of feature thing within the Beatles.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because John couldn't do that.
Guest:And I remember him saying to me,
Guest:How'd you do that?
Guest:How'd you do that?
Guest:I said, I don't know.
Guest:I said, I feel like it just comes out the top of my head.
Guest:And he was, oh, wow.
Guest:And then we had a session once where we were early, early days.
Guest:And I'm going, I'm about to do Kansas City.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I'm on the mic.
Guest:I'm down there.
Guest:We've done the backing.
Guest:Now I'm going to do the vocal.
Guest:And John's up in the control room.
Guest:And I'm going, Kansas City.
Guest:And I'm not making it.
Guest:I'm not getting it at all.
Guest:So John comes down.
Guest:He says, remember, he says, it comes out the top of your head.
Guest:I said, OK, Kansas City.
Guest:And that was it.
Guest:And that's the take you hear.
Marc:So those guys, like you said, you tried to keep doing better records.
Marc:But were you also like, it seems to me that what you were absorbing as a group was sort of happening at the time.
Marc:And you just kind of ran it through the Beatles mill and made it your own and made it better.
Marc:Were you always aware of what was going on around you with the bands around you to the point where you were sort of like, yeah, we can do that better?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:I mean, you keep up with what's going on.
Guest:I do these days still.
Guest:Well, just because it's interesting.
Guest:It's not so much like I'm market researching who's doing what.
Guest:It's just that I like to hear a new record.
Marc:So you hear the hits and you'd be like, okay, that's what's going on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, sometimes it does inspire you to do something.
Guest:Sometimes you get a little jealous.
Guest:I remember with The Who, I read once that Townsend was talking in a newspaper.
Guest:He said, we've just done the dirtiest, loudest, filthiest record ever.
Guest:I went, whoa.
Yeah.
Guest:And we're like, we've got to do that.
Guest:And we can get louder and dirtier and filthier.
Guest:So I go into the studio and say this to the guys.
Guest:We've got to do this.
Guest:And that was Helter Skelter.
Marc:That was the birth of that?
Guest:The birth of filth.
Guest:It was a big fuck you, Pete Townsend.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:And I still don't know what track he was talking about.
Marc:Oh, boy, was that song misunderstood by scary people.
Guest:And how?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Do you remember that?
Guest:Remember it?
Guest:Could I forget it?
Guest:I mean, you suddenly singled out as being the soundtrack to a murderer.
Guest:And it was pretty scary, yeah.
Marc:Because you guys, I mean, I guess John got some flack early on with the Jesus comment.
Marc:How did you guys, what was the PR plan around reacting to Manson?
Guest:well it wasn't you know we didn't have it and for years i wouldn't do that song yeah just because the connections right you know it was just too sort of like i felt like if i did it it'd be a victory for him you know right and i thought no wait a minute i wrote it it's my record it's not his take it back and he's in jail anyway he's dead now so is he yeah he died oh he did yeah so you can do the whole album again yeah fuck you
Marc:Was there a point, like, you know, in the Beatles where you just knew you won?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Which album would that be?
Marc:Where you were like, we did it.
Marc:It's all over.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it didn't mean we were going to stop, but yeah, you definitely... There was the Beach Boy Beatle incident, which was like we were kind of on a par, and we were loving what they were doing.
Guest:Was that sound?
Guest:We fought that sound.
Guest:We were already stealing stuff off them, all that.
Guest:La, la, la, la, la, la.
Guest:Oh, you like that?
Guest:They did that, and we kind of pulled that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But then we did, I think it was Robber Soul, and Brian was like, whoa, and he made pet sounds, and we were like, whoa.
Guest:So we made Sergeant Pepper.
Marc:So that's interesting.
Marc:So you like that's what I said.
Marc:You listen to what other people did and then you kind of put it through the Beatles mill and there you go.
Marc:And there it is, like sort of elevated to another place.
Marc:But during that time was where did you have words with Brian Wilson?
Guest:Yeah, I've always talked to Brian.
Guest:I've been a huge fan.
Guest:Has anyone ever asked me, what's your favorite song?
Guest:God only knows.
Guest:It's so mystically, magically put together.
Guest:It's just a brilliant piece.
Guest:He knows I'm a big fan of his.
Guest:Our birthdays are very similar.
Guest:I think he's June 16th and I'm 18th or something.
Guest:We're very close a couple of days.
Guest:He knows I love him.
Marc:Yeah, okay, but so there was no tension between, you know... No.
Marc:No?
Guest:No, not really, no.
Guest:Not at all.
Guest:I remember coming over here, and there was this guy, Derek Taylor, who was our publicity guy, and he was working in L.A.
Guest:after he'd left us, and he had something to do with Brian.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I remember going over to Derek's house one night and getting a bit stimulated.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Sure.
Guest:And so we're loving it.
Guest:Brian comes over.
Guest:He's got these shades on.
Guest:And he's, you know, he'd gone into his sort of nervous-y phase.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, which was... Where are we now with him?
Guest:I think he's good.
Guest:He's touring.
Guest:Good, good.
Guest:He's good, you know.
Guest:Nervous-y is a nice word.
Guest:It's a diplomatic word.
Guest:You know, I mean, but anyway, he was still a little bit... He had these shades on.
Guest:He said, do you mind if I keep these shades on, man?
Guest:I said, Brian, it's your life, baby.
Guest:You keep the shades.
Guest:I love those shades.
Guest:They look great.
Guest:And he goes, do you mind if I play you a record?
Guest:I go, no, that'd be great.
Guest:He plays good vibrations like you've never heard it before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're in the room with Brian and he puts it on.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:That was the first time you heard it?
Guest:It was magic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was like I was saying, Ruby Tuesday.
Guest:Sometimes you get those magic little moments where nobody's heard it yet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's not released, and someone's playing it for you, and it's the creator playing it for you.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's pretty cool.
Marc:It's a great, great moment.
Marc:Speaking of that, I talked to Peter Fondo recently.
Marc:And he claims that she said, she said that there's a line in there that originated with him.
Marc:Can you give that?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:That's more John's story.
Marc:Oh, well, we can't talk to him.
Guest:But so we can't get that one out.
Guest:No, I know they were hanging out with Peter and he'd said, I think he'd said, I know what it feels like to be dead.
Guest:And John said, nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But yeah, so it was a pretty good line, you know.
Guest:So that found its way into that song.
Marc:So like right now, like Beatles songs are being played every day all over the world.
Marc:There's a part of the human brain, I think, that they have found that's just Beatles songs in most people.
Marc:So that like, do you feel like when you're out in the world, like my girlfriend's dad, I think his spiritual system is based on the Beatles.
Marc:And and I think a lot of people are like that.
Marc:They just have this.
Marc:You've created this entire universe.
Marc:Do you feel what's your responsibility to those people out in the world?
Marc:Do you feel like when they come up to you or you're generally nice?
Marc:Do you feel it's odd that people are so immersed in it?
Marc:Someone told me today that today was the day you walked across Abbey Road.
Marc:Did you know that?
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah, see?
Marc:So you don't have a Google alert on Beatles trivia?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, I'm the person who knows the least of those.
Guest:Well, luckily, a lot of people know them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, you know what it is?
Guest:It's not so much a responsibility, but I do feel proud that the whole Beatles output was very positive.
Guest:You know, there was really nothing that was a big downer.
Guest:There were kind of, you know, sensitive songs, up songs, down songs.
Guest:But basically, we're saying, imagine, oh, that's not Beatles.
Guest:We were saying, okay.
Guest:Good record, though.
Guest:You like that record?
Guest:Very good record.
Guest:I'm good.
Guest:You know, I mean, we were saying strawberry feels forever.
Guest:We were saying, let it be.
Guest:You were saying, you know, it's all pretty positive stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Make it better.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I, so as far as responsibility is concerned, I, I feel good about that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, uh, no, and I'm also very proud, you know, you gotta remember we were just kids who were nothing.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Guest:Then four of us got together, kind of magical combination.
Guest:How do we get together?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:We just were in different parts of Liverpool.
Guest:And it was all various little stories that suddenly brought us together.
Guest:And we went and did this thing, and...
Guest:It was kind of magical.
Guest:But I think that.
Guest:I can look back on it now and think, wow, wait a minute, how did I meet John?
Guest:Oh yeah, I remember that, yeah.
Guest:But it still is pretty amazing that we came together and did that music and then continued to be interested in it and always wanted to make the next step.
Guest:Nothing else sounds like you guys.
Guest:No, it's interesting.
Guest:And you know, the thing is, so looking back on it, as I can now do, as if I, you know, like out of body experience, I can look back on it.
Guest:I think, you know, every single tune was different.
Guest:So if we made, you know, From Me to You, then we wanted to make Strawberry Fields.
Guest:If we made Strawberry Fields, we wanted to make Penny Lane.
Guest:And so there's no formula.
Guest:And I figure it was because we were young guys and we would have just got bored to make the same record again.
Guest:And so much so that I remember in the studio, we used to say to Ringo, did you use that snare drum on the last song?
Guest:He'd go, yeah.
Guest:I said, we're going to change it.
Guest:and you know now of course they set up for a whole drum kit and that's pretty much the whole album yeah and maybe one or two changes but we changed like every time and if if he didn't have another snare drum we go okay that's that's it that's the rhythm that would be right
Guest:That'd be the offbeat.
Guest:So the fact that we were like wanting to experiment and we were so interested and privileged at being allowed this studio time, you know, it was like, so every single track just was different.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:It's insane.
Marc:I listened to Let It Be twice the other day.
Marc:And I can't... Who did that riff?
Marc:Yeah, who did that?
Marc:Who made up that one?
Guest:That was John's riff.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Sorry.
Guest:I Take a Pony.
Marc:It's great.
Guest:Like that whole album.
Guest:I don't mind that he made that up.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:I don't know why I'm getting personal about it.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:I'm glad you don't mind.
Marc:It would be uncomfortable if you were to be like, I've had enough of this.
Guest:Mark, please don't mention John.
Guest:It's really embarrassing.
Guest:No, but that's a great riff, you know, and that was a great song.
Guest:That's probably one of the secrets.
Guest:It never got boring.
Marc:Do you think that, like, whatever happened, you know, at the end of that band...
Marc:is do you feel ever looking back on it that you guys had done everything you could that you'd pushed it out as far as you could go creatively and it might have been the best thing well we felt like that at the time yeah and that's why it ended you know we felt we've come full circle we actually use that expression full circle um
Guest:But when you look at what we did after it, it could have worked.
Guest:You know, like John's track might have been Imagine, you know, and I might have had Live and Let Die.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, whatever, you know, they certainly.
Guest:So you think about that.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:But, I mean, you can't do what ifs.
Guest:No, of course not.
Guest:You know, I can never do that.
Guest:People say, what if the Beatles are still like, wow.
Guest:I say, well, yeah, I get it.
Guest:And I wish it were possible, but it isn't, you know.
Guest:So, like when my kids were growing up, they'd say, well, what if we didn't?
Guest:And I used to say, well, what if a television just fell on my head right now?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So, I mean, oh.
Yeah.
Guest:Holy cow.
Guest:So, I mean, you can't do that.
Marc:It just doesn't work.
Marc:But also, when you start your first two albums, which were like, I mean, they're amazing records because they're exactly what you talk about.
Marc:They're just like, they're pieces that don't necessarily come together.
Marc:They're all different.
Marc:You did them all.
Marc:And critically...
Marc:It wasn't like received, you know, tremendously well, but it seems like you were fairly prescient in, you know, just sort of that lo-fi sort of thing, which is very popular now.
Marc:Like the whole model of that record has sort of like taken off with a certain element of alternative music.
Guest:You know, that's one of the great things is that you go through these critically damning periods, which I did after the Beatles.
Guest:It kind of had to happen.
Guest:Because, you know, it's like, well, he's not as good as the Beatles.
Guest:That was like an easy thing to say, you know.
Guest:And believe me, I was aware of it.
Guest:It was like...
Guest:Holy cow, how am I going to follow that?
Guest:But what's happening, as you say, is I get a lot of people now saying, man, do you know my favorite record?
Guest:Ram.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I heard it the other day.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm going, it's not bad.
Guest:It's kind of very sort of modern.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like who are those kind of people?
Marc:Are they young people?
Marc:I think you sort of like those early McCartney records have been discovered by the sort of the hipster crew.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And in terms of like, you know, taking chances and with recording a little bit, a little rougher, but also just, you know, not being beholden to a particular structure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:that's true and I mean it's great for me because you know when you get criticized so badly it's like it affects you you try not to let it affect you and you tell everyone it doesn't affect you but somewhere you go you know that one didn't quite work but did you ever get to a place where you're like you know like just you know enough with the Beatles
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:When I first went out on tour with Wings, every promoter said, you're going to do Beatles stuff.
Guest:I said, no, I'm not going to do any.
Guest:And then gradually, once I felt we'd established Wings, I felt good about it.
Guest:So then I started creeping back in, Beatle things, you know.
Marc:And now I don't care.
Marc:Yeah, what were the first ones?
Marc:What was it like when you said, like, let's do a Beatles song?
Marc:Which one did you pick?
Guest:Well, they picked it.
Guest:It was yesterday.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Everyone kind of wanted me to do yesterday.
Marc:So you just go out there by yourself?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:You know, the worst thing, though, about yesterday was this happened to us all, of course, and John's in New York, and now the Beatles have broken up, and John walks into, like, a bar, and the bar pianist sees him and goes, doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo-doo, and he's gone, fuck you.
Guest:It's not my song.
No.
Guest:That was the one, huh?
Guest:It had to be that one, didn't it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But no, it is a cool thing that, as you say, the generational thing.
Guest:I remember being with a guy once and I was going on a bit about Sergeant Pepper.
Guest:I said, well, you know, it's great.
Guest:Assuming he'd like me to give him a bit of history, you know, one-on-one.
Guest:I said, well, Sergeant Pepper.
Guest:And he said, well, I'm sorry, man.
Guest:I've got to admit, he said, Band on the Run was my Sergeant Pepper.
Guest:It was just a generational thing.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That was the record that he thought was... That was a great record.
Marc:I don't know if you knew that.
Marc:The Band on the Run record, like, I had when I was very young, and for some reason I just thought Picasso's last words was, like, the greatest song I ever heard as a child.
Marc:Like, you know, Drink to Me.
Marc:Yeah, I just... And then 1985 is on there.
Marc:Like, I'm not going to just do a Chris Farley here, but when...
Marc:When you did that one, was that for you, was that the best that Wings was on that record, do you think?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:At the time, it was, yeah.
Guest:Because we did a crazy thing with Wings.
Guest:Because I'd finished with the Beatles, and I had now the question of...
Guest:What am I going to do now?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So the first thing I did was the McCartney record, which was literally just me plugging into the back of a Studer four track and just recording anything came out.
Guest:After that, then I started to get a little bit more sophisticated.
Guest:But yeah, you know, it is good that nowadays it's come around.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and people seem to think that what we did then is good.
Yeah.
Marc:But it's interesting, too, because with all the experimentation you did, which I think it was, like certainly with the McCartney record and Ram and even like, you know, some of the earlier Wing stuff, Wildlife, right?
Marc:Is that what it's called?
Marc:Like, you know, it was kind of all over the place and you were taking chances that all the way through it, you're making hits.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:There's about a dozen or so Wings hits.
Marc:So did you know when you were recording those records, were you like, well, this one's the hit and that's going to sell the record and the rest we can just fuck around with and have a good time?
Guest:I mean, I didn't always know that.
Guest:It's not...
Guest:Everyone in bands, they don't always know which the hit is.
Guest:You can make a hit.
Guest:Sometimes you just think, oh, it's okay.
Guest:Get Back was one with The Beatles for me.
Guest:I didn't reckon it at all.
Guest:No?
Guest:I just thought it was... Boring.
Guest:I thought it was just a sort of jam.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember somebody when they first heard it.
Guest:Oh!
Guest:I thought this was the greatest record.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:And I got with it, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that could have been the times changing too, that, you know, maybe the sort of elaborate pop thing was, you know, changing into something a little harder and just, you know, maybe people were kind of getting a little less able to process pop and just like, get back.
Marc:That's, I got it.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:Perfect.
Marc:Nailed it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:um well band on the run when i when i did that we released it and it came out it did okay and then it was doing this little thing of dropping back down the charts and i thought well that's it you know but i got a call from uh al cory of capital who was like a real red hot promotion guy yeah and he got my numbers oh i gotta tell you you're gonna let me work this record
Guest:I said, well, what do you mean?
Guest:I said, it's done, isn't it?
Guest:No, no, there's no way.
Guest:He said, you've got singles on there you haven't released.
Guest:He says, it's going to go back up.
Guest:I'm going to take you right back up to number one.
Guest:And I said, well, talk to me, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he said, Jet, you haven't got that.
Guest:So he named that.
Guest:I haven't spotted that.
Guest:But on the run itself, you've got to do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So sometimes it takes other people to tell you what's good.
Guest:Was Lemmy rolling on that too?
Marc:yeah oh man but like that that kind of that record industry doesn't you know and it's very exciting that we're here at capital you've been there so long this is your first record on capital in a long time right yeah now but that record industry that guy making that call does that still exist today yeah i think it does yeah we had uh a meeting when i was playing the guys this egypt station and uh egypt station yeah and um
Guest:There was one of the guys, and they always kind of pointed to him, he's the guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you still got them.
Guest:You still got it, Capital.
Marc:What is the story about the band on the run?
Marc:Where'd you record that?
Guest:Lagos.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Nigeria.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What was it?
Guest:Why?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I don't know if you remember, but at the time it was kind of fashionable for people not to record in their normal studios.
Guest:So people were going places to record.
Guest:Stones, it was tax reasons, but they were in the South of France.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was tax reasons.
Guest:What's wrong with that?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:So people were in different locations.
Guest:You could have went to Nashville.
Guest:You could have.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Actually, from one of them, yeah.
Guest:But I just wanted to sort of get out of there.
Guest:So I asked EMI where they had studios.
Guest:I knew they had a lot around the world.
Guest:And this great big list arrives.
Guest:So I'm getting the choice of China.
China.
Guest:rio um lagos ah that was the one got to do it you know african music it could be great um and it was great but uh they hadn't finished building the studio uh-huh
Guest:You know, it was really basic.
Guest:But the vibe was great.
Guest:I was kind of pleased to be in Africa.
Guest:But it was a crazy time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't just go to the studio and make a record.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's so many crazy little things.
Guest:You know Fela Kuti?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was there.
Guest:And when I arrived, first thing I see in the newspaper is Paul McCartney comes to steal black man's music.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I go, oh, God, you know.
Guest:See if I haven't got enough problems.
Guest:So I get his number, and I ring him, and I say, fella, hello?
Guest:Paul McCartney here.
Guest:I hear you've said in the newspaper that I'm coming to the studio.
Guest:I said, I'm not.
Guest:Yeah, you know, you're coming over, stealing my money.
Guest:I said, no, I'm not.
Guest:I said, come over to the studio, and I'll play you a couple of the things we're doing, and you'll see.
Guest:It's nothing like what you're doing, and we're not going to.
Guest:It's basically all songs I'd written outside.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Anyway.
Guest:So he came over with like 30 wives.
Guest:Yeah.
Whoa.
Guest:And a studio full of ganja.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Man.
Guest:I mean, he was one wild cat.
Guest:He used to have a bottle of whiskey in which was marinated a pound of pot.
Yeah.
Guest:and a whiskey yeah but he was you know we turned out to be real good friends and um he got it he said no you're not you're not doing that was that when ginger baker was down there yeah ginger was his big friend yeah yeah okay i'll tell you the story okay okay now you brought ginger up um
Guest:We're going out.
Guest:Fela invites us to his club, which is outside Lagos.
Guest:And it's called the African Shrine.
Guest:And so we go, yeah, okay.
Guest:So there's just a few of us, little white people.
Guest:I think about me, Linda, a couple of friends.
Guest:And so we go out there.
Guest:But I say, look, the thing is, let's not smoke any pot.
Guest:Because it's pretty crazy.
Guest:And we're out in the jungle.
Guest:And it's pitch black.
Guest:And you know, when they talk about the African experience, this was it.
Guest:So I'm going, okay, everyone will agree.
Guest:We're not going to smoke anything.
Guest:So we're sitting there with a fella.
Guest:Hey, man, what's going on?
Guest:Great.
Guest:You know, the love of great.
Guest:You know, can't wait to hear the music.
Guest:And this guy comes up.
Guest:He's crouching.
Guest:He's one of fellow's guys.
Guest:And he's got a packet of Rothman cigarettes.
Guest:And they're all joints.
Guest:So he says, you want one of these?
Guest:I go, no, thanks, man.
It's cool.
Guest:And I carry on.
Guest:Well, then the guy carries on round and he gets the ginger baker.
Guest:And ginger goes, yeah, man, yeah, sure.
Guest:And he's lighting up and fella goes, ginger baker, the only man I know never refused to smoke.
Guest:I go, aha.
Guest:Okay, I'll have one of those.
Guest:Man, I've tripped out.
Guest:I mean, it was so strong.
Guest:I mean, it was stronger than anything I'd ever had.
Guest:I don't know if there's something in it.
Guest:It was a good night.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:In the end, it was a good night.
Marc:Yeah, drugs can go either way.
Marc:You know that?
Marc:I do know that.
Marc:I have experience, do you?
Marc:Sure, sometimes the faces get evil, and then you've got to wait it out.
Marc:And didn't the tapes of the record get stolen?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'd put them all on a cassette, which is the way you used to demo.
Guest:I had all the songs written.
Guest:They were all nicely ready to go.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would look at each one and then make the record.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And...
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:I mean, like I say, it wasn't just an ordinary trip to Lagos.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was crazy.
Guest:So much so that when we got back, I got a letter from EMI saying, under no circumstances go to Lagos.
Guest:There's been an outbreak of cholera.
Mm-hmm.
Guest:It's like, ah.
Guest:And that's the kind of place we were in, you know.
Guest:But when we were there, they said, there's this area which is like a gated community where all the sort of white people live.
Guest:And we've been invited to dinner there.
Guest:And they said, whatever you do, don't walk back to your place.
Guest:We had it like in another place.
Guest:So of course, what do we do?
Guest:We walk back.
Guest:So it's just me and Linda.
Guest:She's got cameras off her.
Guest:I've got like tapes and I've got cassettes and I've got the hot cameras and everything.
Guest:And, oh God.
Guest:So a car, we're walking along and it is black.
Guest:There's not a lot of street lighting, but we think we know the way.
Guest:It's because of here and then you go down there, I remember.
Guest:So we're walking along and a car pulls up with five guys in it.
Guest:And he winds down the window.
Guest:Now, I think he wants to give us a lift.
Guest:So I say, you are just so cool.
Guest:I say, you want to give us a lift?
Guest:I know you do, but we're walking, man.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:Thank you very much.
Guest:Now, just off you go.
Guest:Thank you so much.
Guest:That's so great.
Guest:And they go for about 100 yards and...
Guest:Stop it.
Guest:You can imagine the conversation.
Guest:Anyway, boom.
Guest:He wipes down the window again.
Guest:And he says, are you a traveler?
Guest:Romani, I think they won't touch you.
Guest:So I said, yeah, we're travelers.
Guest:So they go on another 20 yards.
Guest:And now they've had enough now.
Guest:So the five of them all get out.
Guest:And they're going to mug us.
Guest:One of them's got a little one's got a knife.
Guest:So we are, ah, ah.
Guest:No, you're not giving us a lift.
Guest:Because the other time I said, get back in that car.
Guest:You're just too cool.
Guest:Get in.
Guest:I push him in the car.
Guest:Anyway, now there's five of them around us.
Guest:And yeah, they were mugging us.
Guest:And Linda, beautiful, she's screaming, what do you want?
Guest:What do you want?
Guest:What do you want?
Guest:And they're going, money, money, money, camera, camera.
Guest:So we unload it all.
Guest:We give them everything, you know.
Guest:And in that, the cassettes go, there's my demos, which to me is precious.
Guest:To them, I bet they re-recorded over it.
Guest:What is this?
Guest:You know, rubbish.
Guest:Get some African stuff going.
Guest:And so, yeah, they took everything.
Guest:And they're still screaming.
Guest:She said, don't touch him.
Guest:Don't touch him.
Guest:He's a musician.
Guest:That ought to do it.
Guest:That's going to make some difference.
Guest:You know, yeah, you African guys, you love musicians.
Guest:So, you know, let him off.
Guest:Anyway, they went and we just, I said, right, we walk fast.
Guest:But luckily I remembered it all so we still could do it.
Guest:And we got to the studio and these were African guys running the studio.
Guest:And one of the guys, he said, you're lucky.
Guest:You're lucky they didn't kill you.
Guest:They figured you wouldn't recognize them again.
Guest:So you were lucky.
Marc:Well, that was a risky album to make, it sounds like.
Marc:Really, Ant?
Guest:Honestly.
Marc:So let's talk about the new record, because there's things that you do on it that are sort of a recurring theme that, like, I just want to know when it started and what the choices are on that.
Marc:Like you do at the beginning, sort of like that thing where it's just sort of sound.
Marc:It's a station sound.
Marc:And then there's sort of some sound underneath that.
Marc:And it's just for 45 seconds.
Marc:And then you begin the album proper.
Marc:And then at the end, the sound comes back and then you kind of guitar into another song.
Marc:But what are these bookends?
Marc:And what was the idea?
Marc:Because you've done that a lot.
Marc:like on not a lot we've done it on sergeant pepper sergeant pepper anything else like it seems to me that there's bookends on the second mccartney wreck not on ram there's like a a lick or a repetition of a song or maybe it's on wildlife at the end yeah no you're right a little repetition of the song um yeah you know it just seemed like a good idea at the time so it's not there's no big concept in mind where you're like no not really high it all together
Guest:No, what happened is I had this painting with this on the cover that I did quite a while ago.
Guest:And I was looking at it and I'd named it Egypt Station.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I thought, you know, that's quite a good title.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I quite like that just as a title.
Marc:So it's just, there's no mystery to it.
Guest:Oh, the minute we got station, I then said, you know what, we could make a station and we could do that.
Guest:Then all the songs can be different stations.
Guest:So we decided to sort of bring it back in there.
Guest:The concept thing came later.
Guest:Oh, there is a concept record after all.
Guest:There is.
Guest:The return of the concept record.
Marc:Well, but there's a lot of records you did like that were sort of had these like the like the second side of Abbey Road.
Marc:And then it seems like there was some stuff with wings that have long pieces that have several different songs within them.
Marc:And that I don't know if that's a concept record, but that I seem it's sort of unique to you.
Marc:It seems like is one that you were the first guy to really do that.
Guest:I'm not sure I was.
Guest:I think there were a couple of people in England doing that.
Guest:There was a thing, a ballad of a teenage opera.
Guest:And this guy had a little hit with it.
Guest:And he was kind of operatic.
Guest:He had little episodes.
Guest:I think that's maybe where that idea came from.
Guest:And Townsend picked it up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he did some stuff, quadrophenia and stuff.
Guest:He started to get a bit like that.
Guest:But it's a form I've always liked.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:because it's fun to do yeah and you've got to figure out how to get from this to this and we did it with the beatles and what about like musical theater it seems like there's so many songs and i think it's getting back to this the kids thing that have a sort of there there's there you write them theatrically and they have a sort of jaunt to them that seems almost like they could be in musicals was that something that influenced you
Guest:ever no not really but i know what you mean i'd listen to some of the things on the album the uh the track called despite repeated warnings yeah that is something that you could almost see the cast of limb is yeah doing kind of thing it would work i think but just in general you never had i don't i don't think of it as that no
Marc:And, like, it seems like on this record, too, that, like, there's points when people write songs where, like, the song I don't know or the song Happy With You, where, like, I'm wondering, like, is Paul okay?
Marc:You know, there's, like, you know, I was living a certain way and then you came along and then, like, or that, you know, you're sort of existentially challenged.
Guest:Yeah, I thought that.
Guest:Because, you know, you think about your own stuff.
Guest:What are people going to think?
Guest:And I thought that, you know, hey, you know, I'm kind of burying my soul a bit on, I don't know.
Guest:But then I thought, wait a minute.
Guest:It is you.
Guest:It is me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then I thought, I mean, you know, yesterday, all my troubles seem so far away.
Guest:Now it looks as though they're here to stay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's pretty gloomy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, that didn't, nobody thought, is he okay?
Yeah.
Guest:yeah that's true you know yes but i know what you mean were you okay then i was okay okay but am i now i don't know yeah i am um now you know come on man in the end the songs no it's a song you know it's like um dickens yeah he's writing about little dorrit but he's not little he's not a little girl
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:He's a big man with a beard.
Marc:Yeah, I understand that.
Marc:I just sometimes when I'm listening to songs and I'm walking into the words, I assume that the guy who wrote them is going through this stuff.
Guest:Yeah, well, I don't know.
Guest:That song was inspired by a sort of moment that can happen in life.
Guest:You know, I mean.
Guest:It's easy to kind of pretend just everything's lovely and hunky-dory, but I don't think anyone's life is like that.
Guest:So, you know, there's always arguments.
Guest:You know, I've got kids and grandkids.
Guest:How many grandkids now?
Guest:I've got eight grandkids.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Give it up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I had nothing to do with it.
Guest:You got it going.
Marc:You got the ball rolling.
Guest:I did, yeah.
Guest:But, you know, in families, there's got to always be a moment where something goes wrong, somebody doesn't agree with you or whatever.
Guest:And this was one of those moments.
Guest:I can't remember what the moment was now, but I was a bit, and the great thing about songs is you can therapy your way out of it by writing a song.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:it's like it's a really nice aspect of songwriting and we'd always known that for years you know when john's writing he's a real nowhere man yeah he's talking about himself and how he was feeling he was feeling like a nowhere man but he wasn't a nowhere man but but that by the time he'd written that we made the record he felt better it actually you know
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I think comedians do that too.
Guest:They talk about the crappiest things in their life.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:They're kind of working through it.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:They just drag audiences through their problems.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And everyone laughs at them.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:It's perfect.
Marc:We don't care.
Marc:If you walk away going like, I better keep these problems.
Marc:Yeah, it doesn't necessarily work for them.
Guest:I don't know where it did come from that, where I was really feeling like I got crows out my window, I got dogs on my door.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But how does it happen for you?
Marc:What is the process of songwriting?
Marc:Because there's one on there, the one Do It Now, it's almost like a pep talk.
Marc:Like it's almost motivational.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, do it now was an expression my dad had.
Guest:In fact, you know, I often think of things he said and they often get in songs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I used to say, put it there if it weighs a ton.
Guest:It's just these old expressions.
Guest:You know, people used to say, so I wrote a song called put it there.
Guest:Do it now.
Guest:He used to say, do it now.
Guest:D I N. Yeah.
Guest:Which I always thought was a great name for a record label.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:gin yeah sure let's do it let's do it but anyway so that was it do it now so i thought that's a good idea actually and do it now like you say it's uh it's an advice thing you know so i just made it into a song and kind of fictionalized it but kept the idea of do it now while the vision's still clear while you're feeling still here come on do it now
Guest:The thing is, it's not a responsibility so much.
Guest:But as a songwriter, you do realize that people are going to listen to this.
Guest:And if you can reach someone with something good, with a good bit of advice, that's kind of valuable.
Guest:Obviously, you have to make a good song of it.
Guest:But, you know, so I do that.
Guest:And that is one of the fabulous things when someone will come up to me in the street
Guest:And say something like, you know, my kid had cancer.
Guest:But they just listened to Beatles music all the time.
Guest:And he recovered.
Guest:And you go, wow.
Guest:I mean, that was not a bonus we ever expected.
Guest:But it sure is fantastic.
Marc:Well, I think everybody is, you know, Beatles songs have gotten all of us through something.
Marc:That's for sure.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So I'm very proud of that.
Guest:And you kind of know that.
Guest:So if I write a new song and it's going that way, I won't resist it.
Guest:I just sort of think, yeah, there could be someone.
Guest:I mean, there's a song on there called Who Cares?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is about, you know, have you ever been bullied?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I know there's millions of people out there who have.
Guest:So in my mind, I'm thinking of, you know, a teenage girl somewhere who's being cyber bullied.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm saying, have you ever been hurt by the words people say?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, don't worry.
Guest:Who cares what the idiots say?
Guest:And it comes into a song that you do and you enjoy doing.
Guest:But, yeah, there's a message and you hope it means something to someone and gets them out of a bad period.
Marc:Makes them feel less alone, I think, is also a good thing.
Marc:And there's another song on there that's sort of like a little, it's not quite political, but it's just sort of, it's about, what's the one about the leader who doesn't know where he's going?
Guest:That's despite repeated warnings.
Marc:Yeah, despite repeated warnings.
Marc:Yeah, that's sort of an almost hopeful apocalyptic song.
Guest:Well, you know, I mean, when you read that someone's saying that climate change is a hoax.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, what about those people?
Guest:What has to happen?
Guest:What about those?
Guest:You know, it's like, and then you're reading about the heat waves, the fires, the floods.
Guest:You know, I think, well, I don't think it's a hoax.
Guest:And I think anyone who just blatantly just goes, yeah, it's a hoax, hasn't got it right.
Guest:So that's...
Guest:what I was writing about.
Guest:So despite repeated warnings, this captain is going to take this boat onto the rocks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, let's try and stop him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, we're going to try.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It's pretty scary.
Guest:Are you still vegetarian?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I always will be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People sometimes say to me, don't you miss the odd sausage?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:The odd sausage.
Guest:I don't.
Guest:I mean, I hate to say these days there's really good.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You've seen all the advances in vegetarian cuisine.
Guest:That must have been exciting.
Guest:We were part of it, man.
Guest:No, it's true.
Guest:We were.
Guest:Because I started being vegetarian, Linda, about 40 years ago.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you really couldn't get anything.
Guest:I remember we were going up a motorway, a freeway, and they have these stops where you can pull off and get petrol and food.
Guest:And we pulled in.
Guest:It was a ham sandwich and a this sandwich.
Guest:It was a bologna.
Guest:There was nothing.
Guest:We said, there's nothing.
Guest:Wouldn't it be great if there was like a veggie option or something we could get?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that started us thinking about it.
Marc:You were at the Cutting Edge.
Marc:Cutting Edge.
Marc:Now you can go like there's a fancy restaurant, the Crossroads, where you can get like.
Marc:Crossroads, yeah.
Marc:You've been there?
Guest:There's millions of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they're good.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's the right thing.
Guest:You know, they taste good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I love it.
Guest:I feel very good about that.
Marc:good um here's the other question and we can kind of wrap it up or move towards that so what is it about groups because it seems like you know you did a couple of half they were solo records but you like being in a band don't you yeah because you've been with these guys touring for over 12 years yeah
Marc:What do you like?
Guest:You, you'd rather have a band than just, yeah, you know, it's, I think there's something great about the camaraderie team.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've always liked that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Um, and it's just, it's just nice to kind of do things with people.
Guest:I sometimes feel sorry for the solo star.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who's like great.
Guest:And he's very famous, but he's going back, you know, to his hotel room and there's like nobody there.
Guest:My band don't live in my hotel room.
Right.
Guest:But you can pat each other on the back.
Guest:We can have, yeah.
Guest:We have a lot of fun after the show.
Guest:We do a thing called The Runner, where we kind of get off.
Guest:We get out before our crowd does.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So, you know, we hop on a bus, and then it's time for a drink, a little bite.
Guest:And we talk about things, you know, and we debrief and talk about the show and stuff.
Guest:And that's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I love that.
Marc:And when you play, like, when you play the Beatles songs, like, there were, like,
Marc:which ones like continually still move you?
Guest:Um, I think, uh, let it be.
Guest:And I think, Hey Jude.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Um, Hey Jude, the great thing is at the end of it, you get all these people and it may be 50,000 people.
Guest:and it's real sense of community yeah and you know in these days when people are you know despairing this and i get letters and people have heard something or been to a concert no man you know i was feeling so bad but then i went to the concert yeah um and it just is great to be to be the kind of the mc yeah so now you yeah yeah
Guest:And you just see them all looking at each other.
Guest:It can be very emotional, you know.
Guest:I love it, and I feel very proud that I kind of come up with that.
Guest:I remember once with Let It Be, which is the other one, I was doing a song.
Guest:I was playing it in a concert, and I think it was South America.
Guest:And there's this very handsome man in front row kind of thing, a tall man, and he's standing with his very dark-haired, dark-beard,
Guest:and there's a very beautiful girl with him who kind of was obviously his daughter and she's looking up to him and he's looking down at her and they're digging it and they're singing let it be I'm singing this and I'm welling up because there's like real moment of people just ah it means something and he's you know he's relating to his daughter and I know how important all that is you know so it's hard to get through the song but
Guest:but uh those are great moments yeah and they still happen yeah it's great yeah it's great talking to you paul nice one mark thank you very easy paul mccartney ladies and gentlemen thank you everyone
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Man, what a day.
Marc:What an hour.
Marc:What a life I'm living.
Marc:Paul McCartney.
Marc:Again, his new album is Egypt Station.
Marc:Comes out tomorrow, September 7th.
Marc:And also, if you're not familiar with the Beatles, you might want to pick up, I'm not even going to recommend you a record.
Marc:Just look at the haircuts and decide which era looks good to you.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Also, folks, go to WTF pod dot com to get your tour dates for me.
Marc:You can buy a new T-shirt for you or a gift and you can sign up for WTF premium to get all 900 plus episodes, which has episodes like Keith Richards, Bruce Springsteen, Neil Young to stay in some generational mode here with musicians.
Marc:But yeah, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Bucket list shit.
.
.
Guest:Boomer lives