Episode 944 - Tanya Donnelly / Jason Bateman
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf i'm uh i'm i'm in a remote location i'm on a remote
Marc:Not really.
Marc:I'm in Chicago, as I was on Monday.
Marc:I'm still here, though I was speculating on Monday.
Marc:For those of you who follow week to week and listen to me yammer on here at the beginning, I speculated on Monday because I recorded it Sunday before I'd done my show at the Thalia Hall.
Marc:Here in Chicago.
Marc:And I speculated pretty good.
Marc:It went not pretty good, actually.
Marc:It went great.
Marc:I'd never been to the venue.
Marc:It was an amazing venue.
Marc:It's in sort of a Latino part of town.
Marc:So I was able to kind of show up in the neighborhood about an hour before and get some pollo, like grilled pollo, some grilled chicken.
Marc:It was really good.
Marc:I mean, I just sat there alone with a half a grilled chicken, some guac, some salsas and my little bag and my notes and processed.
Marc:Then I walked around the corner and did the show.
Marc:My opening act, local comedian, Chelsea Hood.
Marc:Great job.
Marc:Did a great job.
Marc:And and then Jimmy O. Yang.
Marc:I don't know if I told you on Sunday, but I ran into him here at the hotel and I just had him on the podcast.
Marc:And he was in town.
Marc:He literally stepped into the elevator.
Marc:But I thought, why not have him on the show, do a few minutes?
Marc:It was a good time.
Marc:It was actually fun.
Marc:It was fun to sort of have that moment where you're like, hey, another comic.
Marc:There's a guy I know, and he's got the goods.
Marc:And so I gave him a guest spot.
Marc:So Chelsea Hood did a beautiful opening set.
Marc:And then they brought on the surprise guest first.
Marc:From Silicon Valley and the Crazy Rich Asians movie.
Marc:Number one movie in the country.
Marc:Jimmy O. Yang laid it down for seven minutes.
Marc:Got some good laughs and I went up and I ended up doing like an hour and 45.
Marc:You know who else was there?
Marc:Andre Royo, who's also been on my show.
Marc:I'm not just dropping names.
Marc:These are people that I know because I met them because I come on my show.
Marc:Andre Royo, you know, Bubz from The Wire.
Marc:He's also on Empire.
Marc:He's in town shooting Empire, which he does every year.
Marc:And I ran into him just out of nowhere in the lobby.
Marc:And he wanted to come to the show.
Marc:So he came.
Marc:The guy who's directing the show I'm on now, Easy, Joe Swanberg, the filmmaker, he came down.
Marc:That was my celebrity VIP section alongside of my parents' friends, Shelly and Shelly, and their son, Brad, who handles my money, and his wife.
Marc:Some lifetime family friends.
Marc:There was that sort of old-school Jewish component, and then the celebrity component.
Marc:It was all...
Marc:Very exciting.
Marc:Then about 600 or 700, however many Chicagoans that came down to the show.
Marc:And it was great.
Marc:The audiences in Chicago are fucking amazing.
Marc:I honestly felt that it was one of the best shows I've had lately because it was so loose and so engaged with the audience and just moving through stuff conversationally.
Marc:Also, Jimmy O. Yang.
Marc:And his friend, they stayed for the whole show.
Marc:They enjoyed the show.
Marc:We went out to this place right across from the hotel here, and we just fucking destroyed a double porterhouse steak.
Marc:That guy, it's hilarious, right?
Marc:He's this little dude.
Marc:But now that he's not poor anymore, as he says, he just can't help but order as much as possible.
Marc:And it was 11 at night, and we're doing a double porterhouse.
Marc:We got oysters.
Marc:We got sauteed mushrooms, broccolini, asparagus.
Marc:Frog legs.
Marc:Yeah, frog legs.
Marc:It was just an insane, buttery feast.
Marc:Just a carnivorous, buttery blowout.
Marc:And it was great.
Marc:And I'd like to add, I did not really eat any carbs.
Marc:Is that important?
Marc:Did I mention that Tanya Donnelly is on the show from the band Belly and also from the Breeders?
Marc:Jason Bateman came by, and he's got season two of Ozark.
Marc:That comes out this Friday, August 31st.
Marc:You'll be able to stream all episodes, and right now you can catch up on season one if you missed it.
Marc:It's an interesting show.
Marc:Kind of menacing.
Marc:It makes you feel...
Marc:like southern dirty, southern dark, southern scary.
Marc:It's got a tone.
Marc:And he directed a lot of them, which I didn't realize completely until I talked to him.
Marc:I like Jason, and it was nice for him to stop by.
Marc:So this is me and Jason Bateman.
Marc:you do get some fantastic people when i saw tom york and paul thomas anderson that turned out to be a great tom york interview because it was just him and i he doesn't do these exactly and paul thomas anderson doesn't sit down and talk yeah but you know him right a little tiny bit i mean like i thought he was some dark wizard he's just some goofball from the valley he's a genius yeah but as a person he's he's us yeah exactly tarzana yeah
Guest:I love what he says about kids.
Guest:He said, I mean, I'll paraphrase this, but the spirit of it was he was talking about kids and he asked him about, you know, so you got four kids or five kids and he's like, yeah.
Guest:A lot of kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's like, it's like having multiple warm fires burning around the house.
Guest:You know, like maybe I'm sort of projecting here, but the spirit of it, I got like, you know, you don't have to hang out with them.
Guest:It's just nice to hear them running around.
Guest:You know, you have multiple fires.
Guest:So multiple rooms are very warm and welcoming.
Guest:But the fire could get out of control at any second.
Guest:You got a screen in front of it.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:i.e.
Guest:mom or friend or nanny or something that you know where you can stay in your bubble of narcissism if you're like me sure yeah just insulated yeah how many do you have though two i've got two yeah two little girls that's enough right
Guest:I would take 12.
Guest:But again, that's the narcissism in me.
Guest:I do love a wood fire.
Marc:But isn't it also... I mean, narcissism, but isn't it like... Because my brother has three kids, and he approaches it with sort of a spite against how he felt our parents did.
Marc:So isn't there an element of it that it's sort of like, I'm going to do this correctly.
Guest:I'm going to be... Yes, but I think the...
Guest:your instinct and who you really are takes over despite all your best intentions.
Guest:And so my instinct, my natural sort of rest pace is to, not in an Ayn Rand sort of way, but I'm sort of this advocate for kind of taking care of number one, just in the practicality of it all.
Guest:Like, in other words, if I'm in a bad mood, I'm garbage for everyone, right?
Guest:So if I am...
Guest:If I indulge the narcissism, and I understand that that's a pejorative, and I don't really mean it as that, and I'm not proud of it or bragging about it.
Guest:You're just self-centered.
Guest:You're not pathologically narcissistic.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, the sense that I just know enough about myself that if I am feeling bad,
Guest:bad about myself if i haven't taken care of the things i know i should take care of right whatever that list might be whether it be you know exercising or doing my homework or studying or whatever it is that that stuff will eat at me right it will make me short yeah and then i'm not a good husband i'm not a good dad i'm not a good friend etc etc so
Guest:And I have sort of a high standard personally for myself.
Guest:And so that list of things for me to accomplish is a close cousin of narcissism.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because I got to get all this stuff done before I can really focus on...
Guest:the other things that are equally important, but they just happen to sit behind my burden of maintenance.
Marc:Right, maintenance, but you do hit a level where you're like, okay, daddy's coming out of the room now.
Marc:Yes, for sure.
Guest:My mind and my eye is on that, for sure.
Guest:But you're not sort of like, there's no end to- No, I'm not overly indulgent or there's no- Or beating the shit out of yourself constantly.
Guest:OCD or anything like that.
Guest:No, yeah, I'm just-
Marc:Well, that's why I think the character in Ozark is like that.
Marc:I mean, when you got that role, you must have thought, this is perfect.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:Well, he's perfect in that he felt like he's taking care of number one, but he's got this other element of...
Guest:kind of arrogance or hubris where he thinks that he can kind of take a shortcut and be even a better provider by playing fast and loose with his version of ethics and morals and, you know, and then all of that stuff slaps him in the face.
Marc:I watched... I hadn't watched it, but when you wanted to come on, I'm like, all right, well, I guess I'm going to watch it.
Marc:You can't finish it, though.
Guest:I did.
Guest:You finished it?
Guest:I finished it.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Thank you so much.
Guest:I mean, it's like five movies.
Guest:I watched all of them.
Guest:I'm surprised anybody finishes these...
Guest:these things because it's a lot.
Guest:It's 10 hours.
Guest:And there's so many of them out there.
Guest:Right, that's what I mean.
Guest:So much to pick from.
Marc:Well, you know, it's like the dark, creepy world of the South and sort of like demonic, but a new take on the demonic hillbilly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And just sort of this idea that you and Laura Linney can maintain some sort of relationship amidst these type of problems, which are ridiculous.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, ridiculous, mostly because these two fancy city folks think they can come down and kind of big city these hillbillies, and they're in for a rude awakening.
Marc:But they're big city-ing the hillbillies because they're in trouble.
Marc:Like, it's the desperation factor.
Marc:It's sort of amazing that in every episode, there's a point where you're like, okay, I can get us out of this.
Marc:Like, I've got this.
Marc:And then it's just sort of like, what the fuck?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now there's heroin involved?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, he can't get all the way on top of it because then the show would be over.
Guest:So it ends up being the significant barriers end up coming as a result of either, again, his hubris or the hillbillies being more worthy of further thinking.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And also the fact that, you know, you can't control people.
Marc:I mean, which I imagine as that character and maybe as yourself is frustrating.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's.
Guest:But again, you know, playing playing people that have it all together is a little boring, you know, and it's just it's not compelling because that supposedly is us.
Guest:Well, this guy has the audience.
Marc:Right.
Marc:He hasn't come unhinged yet.
Marc:Does that happen in season two?
Guest:I mean, like he's come close.
Guest:There are parts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, the, the, you know, the, the ball of, of, of yarn or rubber bands or whatever, you know, continues to fray.
Guest:But as, as one area becomes restitched, another one starts to pop and you just can't keep nothing ever gets fully intact enough to where we can end the show and they can go back to Chicago and get on with a, you know, a pleasantly boring life.
Marc:Right, but so the way we left it was you've pitched this incredible casino boat idea to the Mexican drug cartel guy and to the heroin hillbilly, and your family has gone undercover.
Marc:That's where we're at.
Marc:Right, and you have a friend in the hillbilly girl, the criminal genius.
Guest:Well, yeah, questionable, but she's a partner, a local partner.
Guest:Great actress.
Guest:Yeah, she's fantastic, Julia Garner.
Guest:Where'd she come from?
Guest:I mean, she lives in New York.
Guest:Is she Southern?
Guest:She is not.
Guest:No.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:She really did it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, this casting director, Alexa Fogle, put a lot of really talented people in front of us.
Guest:And thank God.
Marc:You guys are great.
Marc:Your kids are great.
Guest:Your son is amazing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Marc:What the fuck?
Guest:I know it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So... Who's the old man?
Guest:Because I've seen him forever.
Guest:Paris Ulan.
Guest:He's great.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Always a little menacing, that guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Even if he's playing a nice guy.
Marc:And you've seen him in everything.
Marc:He's in Scarface.
Marc:He's the corrupt cop in Scarface.
Marc:He always plays sort of a creepy, powerful, heavy of some kind.
Guest:Like a handful of Starsky and Hutchins, too.
Guest:Oh, way back.
Guest:Just everything.
Guest:Yeah, forever.
Marc:I think he's real good in this.
Marc:He's fantastic.
Marc:He's such a good dude.
Marc:I was wondering how you were going to get out of...
Marc:Like that repetition of like, you know, it just keeps escalating.
Marc:And at what point does suspending your disbelief become an issue?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, that is the burden of a very, very smart group of writers that we have.
Guest:I mean, you do have to keep the escalation going, which is tantamount to...
Guest:going to a concert and you want to see the band play the hits right you know you're fine with you know kind of you can mix up the solo a little bit but let's hear the song like i don't want you unplugging everything and doing the acoustic version of your big hit so don't speed it up right so do what we loved about the first year have a compelling escalation to the plot yeah um further complicate the relationships um
Guest:But now, you know, we finished season two.
Guest:Season two starts the end of August.
Guest:And so season three, if we're lucky enough to get one, you know, the burden is on us to not create a third season, but a third movie.
Guest:You know, like the second year was a sequel.
Guest:And the third year needs to be a whole nother movie with a different beginning, middle and end.
Guest:And it can't just be
Guest:a third version of what you've done for year one and year two.
Guest:Something's got to be introduced that changes the calculus for everything.
Guest:Without jumping the shark.
Guest:That's always the balance.
Marc:Don't become redundant and don't do something that's totally ridiculous.
Marc:You've got to hit the middle, yeah.
Marc:It's weird that you killed off some pretty significant cast members in the first season.
Guest:Yeah, I think there were 15 deaths, and I think we got something pretty close to that in the second year.
Guest:It doesn't drive the narrative, but we do recognize that that's a bit of an obligation, I think, in today's...
Guest:What, killing people?
Guest:Well, in these types of shows, I think, these streaming, serialized shows, there's an excitement, I think, that the audience has where if you kill a significant character, the stakes rise from an audience standpoint.
Guest:Like, oh, okay, I'd like to see how these people who are writing this story are going to get us to the finish line without that guy.
Marc:Well, I think that's true.
Marc:I think that if you're a sophisticated watcher, that you do realize, like with this show in particular is a good example, that it's definitely a writer's show.
Marc:I mean, you guys have to act it, and it's good writing, but you do start to, at a certain point, where you just become impressed with these narrative twists or how your character's gonna get out of this or what's gonna end, and it becomes almost like an exercise of mental and emotional escape and finding a balance.
Guest:Yeah, it's not too dissimilar from a book in that it's not a visual medium, a book.
Guest:It is all reliant on the complexities of the stories, the way in which you dangle a cliffhanger at the end of each episode slash chapter.
Guest:What is the overall theme?
Guest:What's the overall plot?
Guest:And then hopefully our visual and musical component rises to the same level of the plot stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So there's that sort of recipe.
Marc:And you guys are acting the fuck out of it, so that's good.
Marc:Even if something's a little sort of like, I don't know, they're selling it.
Guest:Well, yeah, and that's sort of my job is the guy that's looking at all the cuts and making sure that everything stays consistent throughout 10 episodes, even though I don't direct all of them.
Guest:How many did you direct?
Guest:The first year I did four of the ten, and this year I only did two of the ten.
Marc:It's hard, too, to direct yourself.
Guest:Well, I mean, it's... Running back and forth from the playback.
Guest:It's actually... The acting is so sort of comfortable for me at this point that it allows me to just be aware of all the other parts of the process, even while we're rolling.
Guest:So it's actually more efficient because I don't have to direct that...
Guest:That guy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, that guy's reading my mind for what he needs to do on the next take.
Marc:And you got a good DP whose tone is established.
Marc:Because that's one thing about this show is like, you know, you feel dirty after.
Marc:Like, you know, it lingers with you.
Marc:If the episode doesn't linger, the fucking south does.
Marc:That part of it or whatever that is.
Guest:That was the draw for me originally with the show, reading the first two scripts.
Guest:Well, this is something that I want to direct because I see that what the story is demands a certain...
Guest:visual kind of world atmosphere palette tone whatever so that you would so that these these story elements are appropriate in other words people aren't growing poppies and killing people or doing whatever in a place that has fully saturated color and is in a lot of hard light and right it can't look like a disney show yeah so all of that stuff was uh was
Guest:really the most fun I've had on this show is the directing element of it and establishing the look and crewing up and grabbing a bunch of people that are reading the same scripts that I'm reading.
Marc:Did you do the first four?
Guest:I did the first two and then I did the last two.
Guest:You were the guy.
Guest:Yeah, that was really important.
Guest:I mean, the original plan was for me to do all of them and that's why I said yes to it.
Guest:And then when we got right up to scheduling and budgeting, I realized I couldn't create enough prep time to do all of them.
Guest:And that was a big disappointment.
Guest:But as the executive producer, that is sort of...
Guest:That oversight position that a director gets in film is the equivalent in television, sort of that executive producer role.
Marc:So that was your deal.
Marc:You're executive producer and you're the director of the stage setting.
Marc:Of as many as I can do.
Marc:Yeah, but the first two are the most important in sort of setting the tone.
Guest:And you're the star.
Marc:So this was all, and they approached you, and when you read this stuff, that was what you wanted?
Guest:Well, they came to me about, they actually didn't even come to me.
Guest:The first two scripts were the only ones that were written, and my agent read them, and they were in the office of abandoned scripts, a floor or two below his office.
Guest:He had a canceled lunch, and he read these two scripts, and he said, I just read the best two scripts I've ever read, and I said...
Guest:Well, what fancy client are they for of yours?
Guest:Because I'm low man on his roster.
Guest:And he said, no, I think that'd be good for you.
Guest:And I said, well, what is it?
Guest:He says, well, it's the first two episodes of a series.
Guest:I go, a limited series?
Guest:You know, one that has a finite ending?
Guest:He said, no, it would be an ongoing show.
Guest:And I said, well, we're looking for a film for me to direct that would be an escalation from the first two films I directed, something with more scope and more schedule and more responsibility and complications.
Guest:And he said, well, I think this could qualify as those things if they let you direct all of them.
Guest:And I said, well, yeah, you're right.
Guest:That would be a 600-page movie.
Guest:And he said, let's ask him about it.
Guest:I said...
Guest:okay, do you think that they would even be open for that?
Guest:They haven't called us, right?
Guest:He goes, no, no, no, I just found these scripts.
Guest:I go, okay, so first you have to call them and say, hey, do you know who my client Jason Bateman is?
Guest:And B, he's interested in your show.
Guest:C, do you give a shit?
Guest:And D, he wants to direct them all.
Guest:He wants to do all of them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So basically the response was, oh, thank you.
Guest:Yes, we know who he is.
Guest:Thank you very much for your interest.
Guest:We're out to fancy directors that shall remain nameless, like really fancy directors.
Guest:And so I said to my agent, I said, that's enough.
Guest:Let's not embarrass ourselves by saying we want to be included in the conversation.
Guest:He said, no, no, no.
Guest:Just take a meeting with them.
Guest:It's like, okay, great.
Guest:So I'm nervous as hell taking a meeting with people.
Guest:I know clearly I'm well beneath their target.
Marc:But when you do that, though, do you act like the character and just sort of take charge and go into a whole pitch?
Guest:God, no, no.
Guest:Because then they'd say, get this douchebag out of our office.
Guest:So I just, as humbly and as sincerely as possible, try to explain how I saw the show.
Guest:Literally what it would look like, what it would sound like, what other shows...
Guest:They can imagine, I'm going to try to sort of comp, you know.
Guest:And that went well enough for them to say, okay.
Guest:And then we pitched Netflix, and Netflix said the same thing, and away we went.
Guest:But as I said, unfortunately, I couldn't... It would have been...
Guest:It's a lot, man.
Guest:The pre-production would have been about a year.
Guest:And then post-production, the editing and all that stuff, would have been that and then some.
Marc:I think it sounds like you did a good amount and you were able to also, no matter how comfortable you are with the acting, you still got to do it.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:But again, it makes my job as a director...
Guest:It's helpful for me to have a hand on the wheel in front of the camera and another hand behind the camera if I'm trying to hit a really small target tonally.
Marc:Yeah, and you got nominated for acting and for directing, right?
Guest:For Emmys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:It was a fun morning to put it lightly.
Guest:Have you been nominated before?
No.
Marc:uh i have arrested yeah did you win no no no no and i won't be winning this year but it'll be a fun date night for me and my wife i think i'll be there i think i'll be there glow is nominated but i think the cast gets to go don't we oh yeah do we get to sit in the good seats no you'll be upstairs upstairs i'm kidding um i've never been there's so many of us i bet you do a tux real well i think that i have a black tom ford suit
Marc:That'll work.
Marc:Yeah, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you own a tux, right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:See, I didn't buy a tux.
Marc:I bought a black suit.
Marc:This is all new to me.
Marc:Well, it's the same thing.
Guest:It is kind of, yeah.
Marc:A black tie.
Guest:Yeah, fine, right?
Guest:You can either wear a long tie or a bow tie.
Guest:And then you're set.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Fuck it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're talent.
Guest:You can wear tennis shoes.
Guest:Yeah, to be that guy.
Guest:Especially since he won't be standing up.
Guest:No one will be the wiser.
Marc:Right, be the pretend I don't give a fuck guy.
Marc:Hey, I'm just saying.
Marc:I heard Denzel Washington goes to the Golden Globes wearing sweatpants.
Marc:Is that right?
Marc:That's what I heard.
Marc:I heard it from one source.
Marc:I can't confirm it.
Marc:Are they tearaways?
Marc:No, I don't know.
Marc:Because that would be very strong.
Marc:I just think he doesn't want to be uncomfortable if he's going to sit there.
Guest:If they read your name, you just get up and you just rip them off and you just say, deal with this.
Marc:Get your prize.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But what did you like?
Marc:I assume after the two movies you made that, you know, this was an opportunity to get more experience.
Marc:And it seems like you would get a phenomenal amount of hands on experience doing this.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, anytime you're in that chair, you're learning a lot because the job.
Guest:Literally, as you know, you've spent oodles of time on sets.
Guest:The directors are the people that are kind of the arsonist and the firefighter.
Guest:Most of the time is the firefighter.
Guest:You're answering questions, you're fixing problems, but your creative plan...
Guest:has a tendency to ignite small little fires all over the place that you have a responsibility to immediately follow with a little can of water and say, no, no, no, I understand that the ripple down effect is this, but don't worry, I got that covered with this.
Guest:So you just have to have your shit together.
Guest:I mean, you've got to...
Guest:You've got to have a plan and it is your obligation to communicate that in a, in a, in a succinct way to multiple departments so that all of those efforts funnel into like the same little channel that can shape the goal is to shape the same experience that
Guest:for a bunch of people that you don't know, that might be in different moods, that are in different houses.
Marc:And again, not unlike your family, I imagine you have to sort of work to be grounded in yourself.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Have you ever been a difficult one on the set?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:You'd have to ask people that I work with.
Guest:I'm sure there's a couple of people that...
Guest:I didn't have a great time.
Guest:I don't know of any to speak of.
Guest:But you don't lose your shit.
Guest:No, I'm a big, big advocate for getting your work done and doing it without screaming, without playing the power dynamic card, which is kind of a lazy kind of rookie thing to do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If you just want to be a worker among workers.
Guest:Well, there's just a clear fact that anybody who spent time on a set, there's no one there that doesn't need to be there.
Guest:So the second you start to belittle or dismiss the presence or the contributions of anybody, basically means you don't really understand how the whole magic trick works.
Guest:Because if any one of those people...
Guest:is not doing their job as well as a person next to them, the wheels start to wobble, and you see it on screen, you really do.
Marc:Well, that's interesting, because we're talking about this, and now you're in a position where you're running a set, and in that event that happened at that press conference for Arrested Development, where you sort of had to...
Marc:I don't know what your impulse was in that moment, but it seemed like you just wanted to make everything okay.
Guest:Yeah, that's exactly what it was.
Guest:And I certainly overshot.
Guest:And, you know, unfortunately, one of the things that was the fallout from that was the opposite of what I just said to you, which was my position about...
Guest:It sounded like I was okay with, um, and excusing people being disruptive on set or affecting other people's work processes.
Guest:And, and, and that is, could not be further from the truth.
Guest:And that's, um, that's part of me sort of just, um,
Guest:You know, being thinking that, well, if I just keep talking and, you know, people are going to understand what I'm saying and everything's going to be all right.
Guest:And I just need to shut up and listen a lot more and stop trying to, you know, make everything OK sometimes.
Guest:Maybe that's a control issue or.
Guest:Sure it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I think from our last conversation, I remember there was a sort of a little bit, if not chaos, detachment in the upbringing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Which kind of forces you into a self-parenting mode.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it just wasn't my conversation to get into.
Guest:What happened after it?
Guest:Afterwards, there was hugs and kisses, and we all left that meeting thinking, well, that was a really beautiful thing.
Guest:We worked through something.
Guest:Well, yeah, because Jessica said, you know, emotionally, I'm going to take this moment to forgive you, Jeffrey, and move forward.
Guest:And so we all thought that was like an incredibly positive thing.
Guest:Because, you know, we hadn't sat with Jeffrey.
Guest:We hadn't been with Jeffrey in that setting to hear about everything that happened on Transparent.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so it was it was a really emotional vibe in there.
Guest:There's there's a lot of care for him in that room.
Guest:And for her to be overwhelmed with that and being as generous as she was about putting all that behind her.
Guest:um and behind their relationship really felt i don't know if lovely is the right word but cathartic yeah it was just it was it was a really kind and beautiful thing that she did and and so it was obviously uh surprising to to to to me and to all of us that the the backlash that followed and and
Guest:Look, as I said in my apology, I can see from rereading the transcript and hearing an excerpt from it how all of the position that I took could be misconstrued for excusing his behavior, giving him cover and being insensitive to Jessica.
Guest:And I get that.
Guest:And I so apologize for that.
Guest:But she knows that.
Marc:uh that i don't feel that way about it we've talked since and and all is good so well good i'm glad that i'm glad that that is uh it seems to have passed but i continue to listen and learn a lot because obviously there was a blind spot there for me that i got a lot to learn about well i think also but the the blind spot is is like i've been on sets and the way you're talking about the set that you run you know is is is sort of uh collaborative and respectful and and uh yeah sometimes jobs are hard sometimes uh
Marc:There are arguments about process, but not abusive.
Marc:It just happens in the creative process.
Marc:But you're looking to be in a collaborative, creative environment where everyone's doing their job at the best they can.
Guest:And respecting one another.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And if somebody has a difficult way in which they go about their work.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They have a responsibility to be accountable for that.
Guest:And if it makes somebody else's work process uncomfortable, well, then you either have to change the way you work or apologize for the way you work or be accountable, acknowledge the way in which you work.
Guest:You can't just...
Guest:Not say something about it.
Guest:Expect people to adapt because everybody's process at work and experience at work needs to be a positive.
Guest:There's no excuse.
Guest:There's no reason why it can't be a positive and a pleasurable thing.
Guest:And if somebody's making that difficult, they need to change, apologize, or adjust.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think that like in the in the arts, when when somebody, you know, over years and this is like there there is obviously an awareness that is elevated now and rightfully so.
Marc:And it's right in a paradigm shift around what we tolerate, but not just sexually, but, you know, with just kind of explosive, abusive behavior because talented people, they used to get this pass.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's ridiculous.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it went down forever.
Marc:I mean, I've had moments where I've thrown shit fits, but throwing a shit fit, wandering off and yelling in your trailer at nobody is different than just ruining a set.
Guest:Yeah, there's a way in which to do things.
Guest:And people, no matter how young they are, you know, I mean...
Guest:I deal with it with my 11-year-old, my six-year-old.
Guest:You can see when it is somebody understands the difference between right or wrong.
Guest:And if they're too young to understand that, well, then there's a different set of judgment.
Guest:But that passes like at five.
Guest:My six-year-old is past the, well, she doesn't know better.
Guest:I can sit down and really have a conversation with her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's my job as a parent to explain to her, I know this feels wrong.
Guest:And let me tell you why you probably feel wrong or guilty about what you did or how you can make that better.
Guest:And I'm here to remind you because you're not going to be perfect.
Guest:And every once in a while, you're going to miss a little bit.
Guest:But that's what we're all here to do.
Guest:And same thing at work.
Guest:If somebody makes a mistake or steps out of line, well, it's all of our jobs to say,
Guest:Hey, can I talk to you for a second?
Guest:That made me uncomfortable.
Guest:And I'd appreciate it if you didn't do that again and or apologize.
Marc:You know, it's interesting, though, is in grownups, it's usually coming from emotionally about the age of your daughter.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, that that tantrums and weird emotional reactions and abusive sort of kind of insecurity.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, it's all like, you know, the kid stuff.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and oftentimes it comes from a place of discomfort and fear.
Guest:And I think one of the most helpful things to avoid that very natural element we all have, that human element, is to create a kind and safe atmosphere.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So that people are not fearful and are not insecure at work.
Guest:And they feel supported.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If there is a problem, they have somewhere to go with it.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, good, man.
Guest:So you directed how many this season?
Guest:Just the first two.
Guest:I didn't get a chance to come home and see my girls and my wife that much last year.
Guest:So I just wanted to do the first two because we have to shut down if I'm going to direct any episodes that are beyond that because we're into the season because you have to prep those.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I didn't want to do that because then I can't come back during prep, can't come back during directing.
Guest:And where are you shooting?
Marc:In Atlanta.
Marc:And how much do you – because, like, you know what was great about it, and I don't know how much you had to do with the conception of it or set deck, was that, you know, it didn't – you know, some of these characters are right at the edge of feeling familiar, you know, southern weirdos.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But they all have a lot of heart to them, and also the tone of it and where they live seems sort of authentic as opposed to gothic.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Which, you know, I thought was a great testament to the sensitivity of not stereotyping.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, listen.
Guest:100% of that is the writing and the other 100% is the performing.
Guest:And then there's a little bit of the, again, the visual and in our case, the sonic world that you put around that and the editorial sort of pacing you put around that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oftentimes, you can write a very non-human line for a character by design.
Guest:But if you keep the camera there after that person says the line, you can also incorporate the human side of it.
Guest:In other words, the feeling of guilt or embarrassment for having said that non-human line.
Guest:So you can create...
Guest:that that that combination right that then lands it for the audience that oh there's a lot of heart in that killer yeah or there's a lot of um ignorance in that person that is being intolerant yeah so oftentimes it plays either before or after the line and and that becomes our job in the
Guest:in the editing room to make sure that we're not trying to make the show zip along so fast.
Guest:Like you've got to let things breathe and process.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's where it all happens.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In that editing room.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, man.
Marc:Well, I'm looking forward to it.
Marc:I'll see you at the Emmys if they let me sit in a good seat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We'll be sitting probably right next to each other sharing snacks.
Guest:Good.
Guest:Thanks, man.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Jason Bateman.
Marc:I like hanging out with him.
Marc:Season 2 of Ozark premieres on Friday, August 31st on Netflix, as I said earlier.
Marc:So...
Marc:Tanya Donnelly and the band Belly, they had a couple of great albums, a couple of nice hits.
Marc:She also was on the first Breeders record, Pod, which is a great record.
Marc:And also, we worked at a restaurant together up in Coolidge Corner, up there in Brookline.
Marc:Edibles, the restaurant.
Marc:I worked with Tanya Donnelly when she was probably still in the Throwing Muses.
Marc:Oh my God, how am I just spacing that out in this introduction?
Marc:Throwing Muses.
Marc:What a great fucking band.
Marc:Of course I talked to her about that, but I just realized that earlier in my introduction, I did not bring up the Throwing Muses.
Marc:I just brought up the Breeders and Belly, but Throwing Muses with Kristen Hirsch, that was the fucking band, man.
Marc:I remember seeing them when we worked at Edibles, you know, in this little place upstairs.
Marc:I can't remember the name of the place.
Marc:I'll talk to her about it.
Marc:But those few Throwing Muses albums are great.
Marc:But anyways, Tanya, I hadn't seen in a long time.
Marc:They put out this new belly record.
Marc:And it's great.
Marc:It's a belly record.
Marc:And it was great to see her.
Marc:Great to talk to her.
Marc:Great to catch up.
Marc:Great to see that.
Marc:She's never stopped working and does a lot of other, you know, does a lot of stuff, does a lot of recording just her own songs here and there on different compilations and through a series of records.
Marc:I was thrilled to see her.
Marc:So this is me talking to Tanya Donnelly.
Marc:The new album by Belly called Dove is available wherever you get music.
Marc:It's the first Belly album ever.
Marc:In 23 years, folks.
Marc:Why do bands, why does it come on, what happens?
Marc:I'll talk to Tonya Donnelly about it.
Marc:So, yeah, you asked me, what have I been doing for the last 30 years?
Guest:I have some idea.
Marc:Isn't that crazy?
Marc:And I was like back there making sandwiches.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And scooping Tofutti.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was up front.
Marc:I never got to the Tofutti counter.
Marc:I was just a sandwich guy.
Marc:It's so weird because that's like people get frozen in time and you just sort of like, what did they?
Marc:Because I remember going to see throwing muses like somewhere upstairs in a corner.
Marc:Fuck, it wasn't like TT to Bears, but that didn't have much of a stage.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:I mean, it was like, I just remember it was upstairs.
Marc:There was really no stage.
Guest:And it was sort of down.
Guest:It was downtown.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're like in a corner.
Guest:And yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think that's Chet's.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was just, there was me and about 12 other people there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you guys standing there in the corner.
Marc:That sounds about right.
Marc:It must have been before the big record, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that's where we sort of cut our teeth.
Yeah.
Marc:I am sort of fascinated with the whole, like, the new record's great, sounds like a belly record.
Guest:Good.
Guest:I hope with the 20-plus years.
Marc:A little older, a little wiser, but it sounds like you guys, you know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And how long between albums?
Guest:It was 23, 22 years, something like that.
Marc:So it just took you that long to write those songs?
Marc:We just, yeah.
Marc:Like Leonard Cohen?
Guest:We were slow moving.
Guest:Yes, this was our hallelujahs.
Guest:Like writhing in pain on the floor.
Guest:No, it wasn't a hiatus.
Guest:It was a breakup.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And this is, you know.
Marc:Right.
Guest:This is our 11th hour.
Marc:But did you, like, did you guys remain friends?
Marc:I mean...
Guest:We did.
Guest:I mean, we're all from Newport, which is a very small place.
Guest:Our families are close.
Guest:Our siblings have dated.
Guest:My family used to spend holidays at the Gorman family.
Guest:There's no way to extricate yourself from the island, which is a very complicated thing.
Marc:Newport, Rhode Island.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:so but but when okay let's go all the way back then because i mean you were part you were you know founding member of the throwing muses obviously and then you were founding member of the breeders really right first two albums their first album then a little something on the second one yeah yeah and then uh and then belly happened like during like simultaneously right to the breeders kind of
Guest:Yeah, I mean, the first, actually the first, the songs on the first Belly album were supposed to be, those were earmarked for Breeders, the second Breeders album, because Kim and I had sort of had this plan that she would write the first and I would write the second.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then the Pixies sort of signed on to this 18-month tour.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I got antsy, and so.
Marc:And she could never get off tour?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's basically what it was, and I really wanted to get going because I just left the muses.
Marc:I'm just adjusting volume.
Marc:Hold on.
Guest:Yeah, that's fine.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You speak lightly.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:You do know that?
Guest:I do know that.
Guest:It's been made clear to me.
Marc:It's been a problem on radio?
Marc:Treat of mine, yes.
Marc:Like your invisible voice?
Yes.
Marc:So, but okay, so I like the new record and I had no idea like, you know, looking around at stuff in the last couple of days.
Marc:I mean, you've been sort of plugging away pretty diligently for the past two decades.
Marc:I mean, there's like four or five of those swan song records and there seems to be like 900 songs throughout the course of those.
Guest:And there's a few other solo records as well.
Marc:And you do them every couple of years, right?
Marc:You just kind of record all the songs you're writing.
Guest:Yeah, because I never stop writing.
Guest:It's a function.
Marc:But it's so good that you just kind of... There's so many people that we know.
Marc:I don't know what happened to some of those people.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you?
Guest:No, but I have to say that working in the Boston community and New England as a whole...
Guest:It's self-sustaining, and it's a very happy, productive life.
Marc:Oh, you mean creatively as a singer and songwriter?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You have a loyal following in the area, in the region?
Guest:Yes, yeah.
Guest:And, you know, I have done tours.
Guest:In the interim as well.
Guest:I did get to a point where, you know, touring from 18 on for so long, I came to a stopping point, what I considered to be a healthy stopping point at the time.
Marc:When was that?
Guest:That would be probably 19, or no, 2004-ish, something around.
Marc:So let's start out, though, like Newport, Rhode Island, because my idea of Newport, Rhode Island is fancy.
Marc:I think I was only there once.
Marc:I was drunk.
Marc:It wasn't good.
Marc:It was in a mansion.
Marc:It was some sort of party.
Marc:Don't remember why.
Guest:But it's not fancy.
Guest:It's not an uncommon story.
Guest:Well, if you were in a mansion.
Marc:Yeah, but it was like a rental.
Marc:It was a rental.
Guest:You were on the right side of the tracks.
Marc:Right, but it wasn't, like, it wasn't even at the person who owned its house.
Marc:I think someone rented it for a wedding or something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I can't remember.
Guest:No, it's, I mean, like any place.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, clearly it has, there's a split.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I come, I primarily grew up in the Fifth Ward, which is not fancy.
Guest:There are wards?
Guest:But I love it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know how that works.
Guest:The Fifth Ward's kind of like the traditionally Irish, you know, Irish, where the Irish landed.
Marc:Are you traditionally Irish?
Guest:I'm traditionally a lot of things, but yes.
Marc:Donnelly.
Guest:Primarily, yeah.
Marc:And so, like, but you grew up the whole time there, Newport?
Guest:I did, yeah.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:And we bopped around from apartment to apartment, but that's where I grew up for the most part.
Marc:And what's your dad, what was he, like, doing?
Guest:He's a plumber.
Marc:A plumber in Newport.
Guest:He is.
Guest:And he's also an actor.
Guest:He does a lot of theater work there.
Guest:My mom's a legal secretary.
Guest:Plumber.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did he have his own plumbing operation?
Guest:He did.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it's extremely helpful.
Marc:Oh, hell yeah.
Guest:As a homeowner.
Marc:Oh, now?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And he used to, you know, he did, he taught us a lot of stuff too.
Guest:You know, he would come, Kristen and I would actually, and my brother, we would, when the van, when we would hear the van pulling up outside the house, we would scatter and hide because it meant he...
Guest:If it was during the day, it meant that he had found a pipe he couldn't get his hand into.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's what he was coming for one of us.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Oh, he wanted you to come stick your hand in?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:He was coming to pull us into the jaw.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:To reach into a tight spot.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I mean, that only happened a few times, but it was.
Guest:We were rumbling up.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Who wants to do that as a kid?
Marc:That doesn't sound like fun.
Marc:So wait, Kristen, live with you because you're related?
Marc:Step.
Marc:Step.
Marc:How did that work?
Guest:Well, we actually met when we were very young, like five or six, and we became very close.
Guest:And then at some point, everyone's parents split up and started marrying each other.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's only a slight exaggeration.
Guest:And so my dad and her mom...
Guest:hooked up and ultimately got married.
Guest:And they're divorced now.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And what about your mom and that crew?
Marc:Are they friends or how does that all work?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's, again, sort of the same.
Guest:I'm going to retread what I just said.
Guest:It's too small for contention.
Guest:It's too small to... Maybe for a little while.
Marc:There must have been a little contention.
Guest:Yeah, well, I mean, there's...
Marc:Initial?
Guest:Yeah, there's definitely... There are words.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But, you know, at the end of the day, I really do feel like everyone just has to sort of duke it out and get over it and figure it out because you're going to run into somebody.
Marc:Sure, and you've got kids together.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And, yeah, right, down the street.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, like, you know what?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it did... There was a sort of like a...
Guest:who's got the kids where are the kids what's you know there's a little we didn't have curfews no one knew where we were right you know there there was a little bit of chaos there but it was lovingly with loving stewardship oh yeah yes well it's like is it that small community where like everyone knows the cops oh yeah right so like how far could you go if you weren't running away yeah you turn up one way or the other exactly somewhere right
Guest:Someone's got their eye on you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you guys were kids and all this was going on, I mean, when did you and Kristen, when do you start playing guitar and doing that stuff?
Guest:We started doing that when we were 14.
Guest:And with the support of both of our dads, like for some reason she ended up with my dad's guitar and I ended up with her dad's guitar.
Marc:Really?
Marc:You don't know how that happened?
Guest:I have no idea.
Marc:And you're writing songs or no?
Guest:We started playing...
Marc:we started we learned how to play from basically the beatles song books yeah the big one the one that had lennon and mccartney on the cover with like the the weird binder yeah yes yeah that binder yeah yeah but there's those transitions like the beatles do these runs right like like if like these all these fancy chords yeah and that's what kind of laid the wiring huh
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:And Kristen very quickly started to write original pretty much very quickly once we learned how to play.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was a little slower coming to that gate.
Marc:Were you in high school?
Marc:Were you guys like cool kids?
Marc:No.
Marc:No?
Guest:We were each other's only friends.
Marc:Seriously?
Marc:Basically.
Marc:The weirdos with the guitars?
Yeah.
Guest:we had as we as we i think you know i don't know i'm speaking for myself right now because my you know obviously my perspective are you guys friends still oh yeah sure you are yeah but you never you do you occasionally play together we just did in march we did um three shows in boston at the city winery as the muses nope just separate solo acts and then we did a few songs together at the end was that nice it was really nice yeah it was great like why wouldn't you do that more often
Guest:We talk about it, but it's just our lives, the pace of our lives is very different.
Guest:She's nonstop on tour, basically.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, she goes, goes, goes, goes.
Guest:Huh.
Marc:Didn't she have a kid long before everyone else?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:like long before yeah we were when we had first moved to boston is when she was when we were like 18 is when she found out she was pregnant right yeah and then she went back like with a bass player's baby no oh no okay late she had three subsequent children with another person but the first was right i kind of remember that like i remember that as being like wow she's got a kid
Guest:yeah yeah all right let's go back that's how we felt too although it quickly normalized to be honest with you yeah the as teenagers touring with a child it felt you know we would say i shared a room with her and we would take turns having dylan in our sleep in the bed when he was a baby and right it just didn't feel after i don't know it's sort of it just anything normalizes you know anything you get to a point where sometimes unfortunately yes sometimes quite unfortunately yeah yeah
Marc:But so when you're in high school and you're just playing, so you start playing in the band before you get out of high school, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So the band, I would say, by the time we were 15, we had our first round, which was all female at the time.
Marc:Who was it?
Guest:Elaine Adamides.
Guest:And Cindy Scanlon was our first bass drummer.
Guest:And then Becca Blumen.
Guest:And then we went through, I think...
Guest:a few before narciso david narciso joined yeah when we were at the end of our junior year i guess in high school yeah and you're playing around newport yep and then leslie langston who was an older woman at the time but really now we're the same age um she we brought her in as well amazing amazing bass player
Marc:Are you going to Boston yet?
Guest:We're not going to Boston.
Guest:We played, our first show was at the Newport Art Association.
Guest:All originals?
Guest:All originals, yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:And a Yoko Ono song.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Which one?
Guest:Never Say Goodbye.
Marc:And Kristen sang that?
Guest:We took turns.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know the song, but I imagine it's got to get pretty high up there.
Guest:It's beautiful.
Guest:It is?
Guest:Yeah, it does.
Guest:That one doesn't have any of the acrobatics.
Guest:It's just kind of a straightforward song.
Marc:Straight up song?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really great song.
Guest:Beautiful song.
Guest:So what year are we talking here?
Guest:So that would be 1981.
Marc:So this is like you wanted to have a girl group full of strong lady voices.
Guest:Sort of at the time.
Guest:At the time, that was kind of...
Guest:We sort of try to go back and tease this apart.
Guest:Was that intentional?
Guest:Or was it just the people we knew?
Marc:Right.
Marc:What did you come up with?
Guest:I think it might have just been the people we knew.
Guest:Because when Dave joined...
Guest:That was seamless.
Guest:It wasn't like, there was no, now there's a boy.
Guest:There was no transition, period.
Marc:Well, I just think that choosing of a Yoko Ono song out of all songs to cover in the world seems like, you know, you had a mission in some way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, we were big.
Guest:We sort of, I think also we were just huge fans of hers in general.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:My girlfriend's a huge fan.
Marc:I don't know a lot of her stuff.
Marc:And I guess like, you know, I know she's a very prolific artist in a lot of different ways.
Marc:But, you know, I don't know.
Marc:It's not for everyone.
Marc:Well, it's not even that.
Marc:I don't even know if I've really judged it properly.
Marc:I've seen some of her art, and I think it's okay.
Marc:But, like, it is, like, there is a big bunch of art there that I haven't experienced.
Marc:But I'm told that... Experience is the word.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I carried grapefruit around when I was a teenager.
Guest:For what?
Guest:Just to...
Guest:as reference.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I just wanted... What's grapefruit?
Guest:It just was like a... Grapefruit is a Yoko Ono.
Marc:Oh, it is?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a book?
Marc:It's a book of her.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh, you carried the book around with you?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:What was it that... It was like this little sort of five by five pocket.
Yeah.
Marc:What was it that resonated so much?
Guest:The positivity of it.
Guest:And just sort of how streamlined and simple it was, but just still powerful to me.
Guest:I just felt like it really did resonate with me.
Guest:It really...
Marc:Oh, now I got to get it.
Marc:I bet you my girlfriend has it.
Marc:See what's going to happen now after I talk to you.
Marc:I'm going to be like, do you have any of that Yoko Ono stuff?
Marc:She's going to be like, I've been telling you for three years.
Marc:I'm like, well, I just talked to Tanya.
Marc:Like, why don't you listen to me?
Marc:That's what's going to happen.
Guest:I mean, full disclosure, I haven't revisited her work in decades, but it was big for me.
Marc:Did you all finish high school?
Guest:We did.
Marc:And so you stayed in Newport, and how many songs did you end up sort of like amassing or writing by the end of high school?
Marc:Did you have a pretty good set?
Guest:Yeah, we did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, dozens, I would say.
Guest:Not all of them made the cut.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But because, you know, a lot of it was sort of this, let's try this, let's try this, let's try this, and the things that were sort of very...
Guest:more stylized it fell by the wayside as soon as we found our own our own voice yeah you know right our own pace and um so a lot of those sort of training wheel songs yeah we're left behind for the most part and so so okay so you're in a band it's you and by the time you graduate high school you've david's in the band yeah and uh and scanlon is out yeah yes yeah
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I like the Irish names.
Marc:Anne Blumen.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:But did you grow up crazy Catholic?
Guest:No.
Guest:My parents were pretty much atheists for the most part.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He was a groovy plumber.
Guest:There's a lot of Catholic DNA.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Rosary and my double helix.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's...
Marc:Is that a lyric?
Guest:It's on mute.
Guest:It's dormant at the moment.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And then Ashkenazi on my mom's side, but again, same.
Guest:You have a Jewish mom?
Guest:Came through, well, great grandmother who came and grandfather came.
Guest:But their families came.
Guest:Not practicing, though.
Guest:No observance.
Guest:So I don't claim anything.
Guest:I'm really careful on both sides to not claim any religious affiliation because I don't have any experience with any of it.
Guest:But from that side, they came through Greenwich Village beatniks that basically rejected everything.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, my mom's parents.
Marc:Or beatniks?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:So you have sort of like a nice hippie pedigree there.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And your dad's parents, where were they?
Marc:Were they in Newport?
Guest:Naval commander.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Hold on.
Guest:But very, honestly, as liberal as you can be within that structure.
Marc:And you knew them, so they were around when you were growing up.
Guest:Yes, both of my grandparents.
Guest:My parents had me very young.
Guest:I was a teen result as well.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I knew my grandmother still alive, my maternal.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:My paternal grandmother, yeah.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Marc:New England people are very unique.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's for good and bad, but when I go back there, which I don't do much, there's something so distinctive about certain areas like New England, Philly.
Marc:There's a kind of rough but compassionate bunch.
Marc:Pragmatism.
Marc:Yeah, but with an edge to it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yep, yep, yep.
Guest:It's true.
Marc:So, all right, so wait, so now Kristen gets pregnant in high school?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:So then, okay, so now she's got a kid by what, senior year?
Guest:She's got a kid by end of senior, no, so she, it was the summer after.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Is that right?
Guest:Wait, let me do this math.
Guest:Winter after, I guess, yeah.
Guest:What year did you graduate?
Guest:So, 84.
Guest:So, and he was born in...
Guest:He was actually born in 86, so there was a little gap.
Marc:And so everyone was like, what?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're going to, okay, I guess.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But there wasn't a moment, I have to say, there was once, as soon as she decided to have him, we were fully on board.
Guest:There was no talk for a second of...
Guest:Maybe the band won't happen.
Marc:You were still full steam ahead.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:She had the baby.
Marc:Full steam ahead.
Guest:We signed to 4AD during that period.
Marc:It's a British label?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How did that signing happen?
Guest:We sent the tape.
Guest:We were Cocteau Twins fans.
Guest:And sent the tape to him because that's how we had heard of 480, to Ivo Watts Russell.
Guest:And he had this policy of not signing any American bands at the time, but he wanted to mentor us and sort of get us.
Guest:He basically sort of unofficially managed us for that demo.
Guest:The guy from the Cocktail Twins?
Guest:The label owner of 480, the guy that started 480.
Guest:And then he got to the point where he felt like he was starting to get too attached, and so he signed us.
Marc:Were you the first American band?
Guest:We were the first American band.
Marc:Yeah, okay, okay.
Marc:Throwing Muses, first American band.
Guest:And then we brought the Pixies with us, too.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So now, in order to be hanging out as teenagers still and signing record contracts and touring, I'd imagine, with a baby, I'm assuming that you guys weren't out of control in any way.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, no, not at all.
Marc:You didn't live the rock and roll lifestyle.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we had some people who immediately, and Salem 66, among them, just sort of, and the Mission of Burma guys, the Birdsongs people, they were just this kind of group of people that helped, you know, like really pulled us up and supported and gave us sort of a...
Guest:A template, in a way.
Guest:And introduced us to the community.
Guest:And Gary Smith, very, very important to us.
Marc:Who's that guy?
Guest:Gary was the owner of Fort Apache.
Marc:Fort Apache, right.
Marc:I think I talked to maybe Janowitz about that.
Guest:And he managed me.
Guest:He managed Julianna Hatfield.
Guest:He managed Natalie Merchant.
Guest:And he produced Muses Records, Pixies Records, The Chills.
Guest:He's a renaissance.
Marc:Julianna Hatfield.
Marc:I remember her.
Marc:I think she sent me a bunch of records.
Marc:I've got to get up to speed on her.
Marc:I end up doing a lot of catch-ups.
Marc:She's fantastic.
Marc:Yeah, no, I'll get into it.
Marc:Where does she live?
Guest:She's in Boston, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I remember hearing her name.
Guest:I'm married to her bass player, to her.
Guest:That's how I met my husband, was on tour with her.
Marc:You had one husband?
Guest:Actually, I have one, 25 years old.
Marc:25 years husband.
Marc:We've been together, yeah.
Marc:And babies?
Guest:Two, 19 and 12 girls.
Marc:Older.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know why my brain keeps wanting to put us back in Boston.
Marc:It's so weird when you miss a chunk.
Marc:Remember Fat Mike, the manager?
Marc:Big Fat Mike with the beard?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We used to do coke with Mike.
Marc:I wonder if he's still around.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Ira and Bunny.
Marc:Ira and Bunny were the owners.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
Marc:Big Ira, Doofy Ira, and little sort of round bunny.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's all there.
Guest:It's like flashing before my eyes.
Marc:Right?
Marc:I always had a problem because they had these sandwich steamers that I just never understood in retrospect.
Marc:Like these steam tables where you give someone an order.
Marc:You take a whole pita, lay it flat.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Put the tuna on it, and then like sprouts and tomatoes and cheese on top.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And put it in the steamer.
Marc:It was such fun.
Guest:It was such a weird, I feel like everything there was just, was kind of just slightly off grid in terms of how everything functioned.
Guest:Like, and it had like sort of one of those faux health food deli vibes where it was, yeah, like this is, this is healthy.
Marc:Yeah, it was hippie.
Marc:It wasn't healthy.
Marc:It was like hippie.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You remember the Caribbean singer, Keith?
Marc:Oh yeah, yeah, yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Oh my God.
Guest:You have an amazing memory.
Marc:And George, the other Caribbean guy, that cricket player.
Guest:I have to admit that I actually went on my own wiki page last night to bone up on my own chronology because I know that your memory is... It's not good.
Marc:I was there today.
Marc:I was not that great.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:My memory is not that great.
Guest:I have to remember my own life if I'm going to be revisiting it.
Marc:Well, I mean, I just like there's something about like that, you know, what you came into and even like somewhat before us as well there, because I'm a little older than you, not much.
Marc:I graduated high school in 81.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, like, yeah.
Marc:But there was a generation of Boston music that happened before us.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like, with the Cars, Modern Lovers, and, like, that crew.
Marc:Amazing, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but they laid this out.
Marc:And, like, in your generation, I think was, that was, like, it seems like, maybe not the end of it, but there was, before they plowed under, you know, Kenmore Square, I mean, it was really this vital place.
Marc:I've had Amy Mann on a few times, and she was a little older than us when she was doing that Till Tuesday thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But now she's like, I think, as a solo artist, probably generationally alongside of you guys.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:A little bit, maybe.
Guest:Yeah, she was more of a paver.
Guest:She was a few years ahead.
Marc:Who do you see the other pavers as?
Marc:Mission of Burma, weren't they?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yes, absolutely.
Marc:So was your class like the dogmatics?
Marc:Scruffy?
Guest:Yeah, definitely peers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's funny because like Boston, I think looking back through the lens, everything seems to combine and conflate into this.
Guest:They all hung out together and everyone, there was this cohesive scene.
Guest:And to an extent that is true.
Guest:But there were pockets of...
Guest:of friend groups among, you know, people who played with each other more often than, like it was like the needs, the flies, the dogmatics that, you know.
Marc:The neighborhoods?
Guest:The hoods, yeah.
Marc:The hoods, that was Judy's boyfriend within the hoods.
Guest:David, yeah, and they're actually current friends of mine now because their kids went to school together.
Guest:So what do they do now?
Guest:He owns a studio out there, and she sort of supports that, and she's, you know, again, kids, both of us.
Marc:And everyone's good?
Guest:He owns a studio in Arlington.
Marc:Recording studio?
Guest:Yeah, really great.
Guest:In Arlington?
Guest:In Arlington.
Guest:Woolly Mammoth.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:So they stayed in the game and made... Yeah.
Marc:Because, like...
Marc:Because I talked to, yeah, when I talked to Janowitz, he's a real estate agent.
Marc:He's fine with it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was such a. You know what?
Guest:I was listening to that interview and I need to be his PR person right now because he actually runs a niche business.
Guest:A real estate niche?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Like, absolutely.
Guest:It's his.
Guest:It's this, you know, sort of mid-century modern.
Guest:And he does quite well.
Guest:And he's extremely educated in his.
Guest:And he loves that architecture as a fan of it.
Guest:And he doesn't half-ass anything.
Guest:That guy?
Guest:That guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, I mean, I was listening to it and I was like...
Marc:You got to get proud of it?
Guest:Yeah, a little more braggadocio.
Marc:Well, I think that one of the reasons he might not have is because, you know, that's one of the, like, I didn't know that stuff about him.
Marc:You know, like, I don't know how people function in my game, like comedy or in your game, like when shit goes, not even south.
Marc:But when you just sort of like, you know, you've had your shots and it just levels off.
Marc:So how do you survive?
Marc:Right.
Marc:So I feel like he was probably speaking from not shame per se, but, you know, he was talking about a new Buffalo Tom out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He didn't seem not proud of it, but I don't think he was there to plug his real estate business.
Guest:To plug that, right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And I'm not here to plug my doula business.
Marc:But that's sort of kind of fascinating.
Marc:No, I think it's important, actually.
Marc:Right.
Marc:for people to hear that stuff yeah because you know like so many because you're still doing what you love doing and you may have this other thing that you also are engaged with but can can generate some a living out of a bit but there's no shame in that and i think that people put all their eggs in one basket and they don't really hear the other stories like they just assume that it's a tragedy like you know what happened to that person can't be
Guest:good and that is like it's funny like coming back to the belly thing which is by far the most high profile thing that i've been involved in um that is the that that's a that's a running question is what have you been doing well it's been two decades that's a very difficult question to sum it up yeah um i've you know it's i feel like bill and i both also are in a similar place where we're
Guest:quite happy the way things have panned out for us.
Guest:And as is everybody in Belly.
Guest:Everyone's been busy.
Guest:Everyone has businesses.
Guest:Collectively, we run our own businesses.
Guest:We have families.
Guest:It's a lot, but it is.
Guest:I understand why
Guest:You know, I about other artists will be like, well, they really fell off the radar.
Guest:So I understand, you know, clearly when someone goes away.
Marc:But what is that?
Marc:But what the fuck is that radar when you really think about it?
Marc:I mean, we're in our 50s now, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, you know, it's like who and what determines that radar?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like, see, obviously, you know, you've developed enough of a following to where you can go play gigs with supportive fans, probably of all ages with kids, I'd imagine, at this point in time.
Guest:Which is bizarre.
Guest:Adult children.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's bizarre, but it's sort of lovely that, you know, you can do that when you want to do that.
Marc:And how is that not, you know, the exact trajectory?
Marc:I mean, like, even the biggest bands in the world get sad after the fifth or sixth album.
Guest:Yes!
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's like, what is this radar people are talking about?
Marc:When people start repeating themselves, you're like, this is it, I guess, for the rest of it.
Marc:They're going to play the hits and look like that now as they get older.
Guest:Yeah, right, right.
Guest:And that's a whole other conversation.
Marc:Well, yeah, and then they're sustaining this machine.
Marc:But I do want to...
Guest:The bandwidth has changed around that, though, because everything is so much more porous informationally.
Guest:There's so many streams of communication and information that the radar has changed.
Guest:So it's actually much more inclusive of those of us who have made different choices.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And there's also no more late to the party.
Marc:Let's say, you know, someone who's a fan of yours from when you were younger is a mom now and he turns her kid on to you.
Marc:That kid can go online and go all the way back to, you know, throwing muses and then have this whole world open up to them because the technology allows people to do that.
Guest:Yes, and that's a recurring story, is I found you through the Pixies, or I found, you know, throwing music through, you know, just that family of bands does have much more of a melting pot following now, which is nice.
Marc:Yeah, anybody, like even me, who you think you've been around in somewhat public forever, and then people are like, I didn't know you were a comic.
Marc:I'm like, what the fuck?
Marc:How is that possible?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Because now I'm on the Netflix show on Glow.
Marc:So people are like, who's that guy?
Marc:And they're like, oh, he's got a podcast.
Marc:I'm not Kanye.
Marc:Of course, most people don't know who we are.
Marc:So they can all just, all it takes is one search and they're going to be like,
Guest:what the fuck yeah there's all these records right right it's kind of yeah which is great it's really nice because you don't i don't have to walk into any situation with my resume do you know you know what i mean which is so nice because it's all been done for me with a click of yeah that's the upside yeah yeah
Marc:So when you guys, let's go back though.
Marc:So you signed with 4AD and then you brought the Pixies in.
Marc:How close were you with those guys?
Guest:Very close.
Marc:Still?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:I mean, not so much.
Guest:Kim and I are still friends.
Guest:And Kelly and the whole, all of them.
Marc:The deal people?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Josephine and the whole gym, all of them.
Marc:But not Francis.
Guest:Yeah, no, I kind of fell out of touch with him.
Marc:What's his real name?
Marc:Charles.
Marc:Charles, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, okay, but he's up in, like, what, the Pacific Northwest somewhere?
Guest:I don't know where he is.
Guest:I don't even know where he is.
Marc:But back in the day, you guys were tight.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you remember there?
Guest:Yeah, and he actually, my boyfriend, Reed, at the time, back then, Charles and Reed became very close, and Reed still opens for them quite often.
Guest:So he's kind of...
Marc:In what band?
Marc:Solo?
Guest:By himself.
Marc:So now this is your first... So when do you move to Boston?
Marc:After you get the record deal?
Guest:No, we moved to... Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Actually, yes.
Guest:I think that was sort of... That might have been simultaneous.
Guest:Because it was the year... I want to say it was the summer after high school that we started communicating with Ivo and he became interested.
Guest:So yeah, that would have been...
Marc:Yeah, and then you made the first record.
Guest:And then we made the first record.
Guest:We demoed with Gary Smith.
Guest:We sent it, and then we recorded with Gil Norton.
Marc:And now you're in Boston living where?
Marc:Somerville or somewhere?
Guest:Arlington.
Marc:All the way out there, Arlington.
Guest:Yeah, all the way out.
Guest:I know, that's how we felt when we moved there.
Guest:We were just, are we going to make this massive five-mile leap into a new area code?
Guest:God forbid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're, like, through the late 80s, you're, like, you're cranking out the records, and then Hunky Papa's got, like, a little hit on it.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And then you're, like, you kind of blow up a bit.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Headlining.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No more opening for the Pixies.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, at that point, there was not, you know, I just was just starting to write more, and that's why I left.
Guest:It wasn't, like, a contentious.
Guest:It was just very logistically, you know, just, this is...
Marc:Why you left the muses?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Kristen gets this many songs.
Guest:And when my piece started picking up and I started writing more.
Marc:Oh, you're like, I need to.
Guest:I need space.
Marc:Get these songs out.
Guest:And it was going to be a side project.
Guest:It was going to be their second Breeders record initially that was going to be sort of a side project.
Marc:Well, how'd you get involved with the Breeders on the first one?
Marc:Because I love that first record.
Guest:Kim and I just really, on the very first Pixies Muses tour, we just really bonded and became very, very close.
Guest:At the end of the tour, we just decided to, I mean, in some ways it was just an excuse to sort of hang out.
Guest:But also she was feeling sort of the same thing I was, which is I'm writing a lot too.
Guest:And so we started to just kind of meet up at her house or mine and
Guest:And write, start writing and playing.
Marc:Was she out of control yet?
Guest:No.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, not at that point.
Marc:So.
Guest:No, I was, I mean, I think we started, we kind of entered our tricky stages simultaneously, but I bailed sooner.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That first Breeders record, that's the one with the Happiness is a Warm Gun cover.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's such a good record.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's so different.
Marc:It stands alone.
Marc:Because by the time Last Splash, the musical sort of sonic texture of that record is like a complete kind of mindfuck.
Marc:But that first one is very clean, really.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's very Albini.
Guest:He did a lot of editing.
Marc:Pod of pod?
Guest:Yeah, just sort of stripping off harmonies where they didn't need to be and paring things down.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He doesn't like to take credit for anything he does, but watching him at work was pretty inspiring.
Marc:He loves her.
Marc:I mean, he loves her beyond, like, I talk to him, and the way he talks about her after all the artists he's ever produced, it's like he just loves her.
Guest:Yeah, she's really what I mean, I have to say in terms of inspiration, watching somebody's process.
Guest:She's one of my she blows my mind.
Marc:What about it?
Guest:Just the way she approaches songwriting and the way she approaches production.
Guest:And she's so, you know, even when things were messy with us.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Between you or just when you were fucked up?
Guest:No, no, no, when the two of us were, yeah, were spiraling.
Guest:She, just the clarity, her clarity, her focus was still always present.
Guest:You know, she's just very, she knows what she wants.
Guest:She works until she gets it.
Guest:She has real vision.
Guest:And, you know, for someone, I have a more of like a, where's the song going to take me kind of thing.
Guest:Where is this going to go?
Guest:And she's so in charge.
Marc:She knows beginning, middle, and end what she wants.
Guest:And that's something that rubbed off on me a bit in a very good, you know, in a very positive way for me.
Marc:Like it's a work ethic.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:And I've always had a strong...
Guest:Work ethic, but hers is, you know, I mean, all-nighters.
Guest:But did you find that?
Guest:Just like until it's done kind of work ethic.
Marc:But do you feel like some of your kind of like, let's see where it takes me was, you know, fueled by some sort of insecurity?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So because like people who are decisive, you know, I have a fear of finishing.
Yeah.
Guest:yeah well because i mean i feel like some of my fear of finishing is because i feel like that is something that you have to decide because music is kinetic and yeah there's never a it's not fixed yeah and so there's never going to be a point where you're where you're playing where you're with you're sitting with your song and say
Guest:there yeah it's done and back to hallelujah like there's a there's a right no you have to like you at some point you have to pull the trigger and put it lay it down and just right freaking record it right and then and and maybe later live you can you know you can keep evolving and moving with it so in your mind all the songs are still active absolutely yeah yeah every every night
Marc:I think that's just another way of looking at it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like, I mean, maybe some people who are more tight and, like, sort of, like, know... Like, you know, I talked to Paul McCartney.
Marc:I don't think he thinks that way.
Marc:Like, you know, where are we going to go with Hey Jude tonight?
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, no, and we're not... Believe me, we're not a jam band.
Guest:There's no...
Guest:There's not that much improvising going on.
Guest:It's more just sort of, you know, I just figured out what I want to do with this vocal.
Guest:I'm going to change this word because it bugs me.
Marc:Yeah, do it live, right.
Marc:Yeah, no, I get it.
Marc:But I mean, some guys, sometimes they make, I go either way with that, with like old songs when the old bands try to make them fresh.
Marc:I'm like, really, you're going to speed it up that much?
Marc:It's going to be that much.
Guest:If it goes too far, you know, we were talking yesterday to Sky Daniels about this on KCSN and just how Dylan, you know, he's like, Dylan will be halfway through a song.
Guest:You're like, is this like Rolling Stone?
Guest:So, I mean, I understand that.
Guest:that need to sort of entertain yourself and keep yourself invested.
Guest:But there's also, it can go to a point where... Well, I think that a lot of Dylan is there.
Marc:There's a lot of fuck you in Dylan.
Guest:Yes, which I enjoy.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Where, you know, like he garbles fucking songs for a decade and then he puts out a crooner record.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's almost sort of like, meh, fuck jokes on you, idiots.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I feel like that Victoria's Secret ad was the biggest middle finger to it.
Guest:Like things like that where he's just like...
Marc:What does he care?
Guest:You don't know what I'm going to... Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's just so funny.
Marc:The guy's just like... He's just like human museum out there.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Moving through time still.
Marc:He seems to just want to die in a hotel room somewhere in a strange suit.
Marc:That's like his end game.
Marc:That's what he's working towards?
Marc:Yeah, after playing a state fair somewhere.
Marc:But it's true.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With a klezmer band.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why wouldn't he go out like that?
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:No, and I mean, that sounds, it's fun to observe.
Guest:And I have to say, I get it.
Marc:I love him.
Guest:I love him, too.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:I love that energy.
Marc:I can't, like, I haven't kept up with him lately.
Marc:All right, so, okay, so then, so you and Kim do that pod record, which is a great record, and then you get all fucked up on drugs in New London.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not the same.
Guest:We weren't... Not the same drugs.
Marc:Right.
Marc:What was your drug?
Guest:This was a relatively brief time, but it felt like forever.
Guest:Ecstasy.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:And Coke.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So a little up, a little down.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm so... You know, I feel... This is like... It's hard for... You know, I...
Guest:This isn't something that a lot of people know about me.
Guest:My friends do, and I have talked about it before, but I'm cagey about getting into it too much because I did sort of walk away from that and left it completely behind, thinking, I can just make this go away.
Guest:I can just erase this.
Guest:I can excise this part of my life.
Guest:No, you can't do that.
Marc:Well, I mean, there's no loose ends.
Marc:It was just a period.
Guest:There are no loose ends.
Guest:There are people that I would like to have some sort of closing argument slash hug.
Guest:You can do that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It's funny because this belly reunion, the model has been when we first...
Guest:We're having an email conversation about are we going to get back together?
Guest:What do you want to do?
Guest:Should we get a mediator?
Guest:Do we need to revisit things?
Marc:So there's people in the band.
Marc:No, no, no.
Guest:Separate thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But we sort of decided we're going to draw a line in the sand.
Guest:We're going to redline the whole thing.
Guest:We're going to move forward.
Guest:And we're not going to revisit.
Guest:And it's been...
Guest:very successful and I actually feel like I want to apply that to other relationships in my life from this point just sort of you know face forward move forward but discuss it discuss but not drag out yeah right
Guest:And not not do any like real scatological work.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Do you know what it feels like after a while is like, why are we digging into this?
Marc:But there is a way like, you know, like in in the program of recovery.
Marc:Which, you know, you were lucky that you didn't get, you know, that that wasn't your life.
Marc:But there is the amends process, which, you know, creates a context for that.
Marc:Like for individuals to take responsibility for their side of something and own it to the other person.
Marc:And then whatever goes on, goes on.
Marc:But at least you've unburdened yourself to a degree.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And that we have done.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Without being... That's the best you can do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that is something that I feel like...
Guest:And, you know, I think I would have done that had we not gotten back together because this would have been, at the end of my life, my one big regret if we hadn't had this moment.
Marc:You and Belly.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I have other regrets, but this would have been the one that would have haunted me.
Marc:Breaking up the band without closure?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And just sort of my bad behavior.
Guest:Everyone's, you know, just sort of in general, just how we... Well, how did it end?
Guest:It just... It was... You don't want to drag it up with me.
Marc:We don't want to go into the... You don't want to be that... You don't want to put your hand in the pipe.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I can tell you... I can give you the soil, but I can't tell you what grew there.
Guest:So it was basically like just...
Guest:18 months of this is so whiny but we just we you know we were on this real non-stop road and it felt like we couldn't even sit down or it would all oh with the touring yeah after the two records after king or yeah and and just sort of you know you have people
Guest:We each had different voices in our ears with different expectations.
Guest:Our expectations changed.
Guest:It's not a very interesting story.
Marc:A lot of people pulling at you, and you were exhausted.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you sort of hit a plateau.
Marc:You plateaued.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it wasn't an explosion.
Marc:It was a crumble.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But there was still some bad blood or a little resentment.
Guest:Yeah, in the beginning.
Guest:And then, which at this point, we're sort of like, you know.
Marc:What was that about?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It's nice to have, like, such a terrible memory, too, which is helpful.
Guest:It's hard to maintain animosity when you can't remember what.
Marc:That's age, though, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's part of it.
Marc:So when did you, like, because, you know, the belly records were great.
Marc:And, you know, obviously the, I like that Breeders record.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:But now like I look and you've done a lot of solo records and you're constantly writing songs and playing and, you know, you know, but when did you, was there a crisis of like, you know, what am I going to do now?
Marc:When did you become a doula?
Marc:When did that, like, what was the need to do that?
Guest:That was driven from experiences of my own with my kids where I could have used some postpartum support.
Marc:I mean, I had a lot.
Guest:My dean is 100% with me on everything.
Guest:But in terms of just a little more experiential knowledge from someone who had...
Guest:who had been in this emotional place.
Guest:And, you know, I feel like there... I felt like I was the classic sort of panicking every second but not accepting any help, you know?
Marc:About being a new mother?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Just feeling sort of at sea and scrambling...
Guest:And just for my usual level of my high-functioning level, just to have that be out of my grasp in this extremely important new situation.
Marc:Of having a baby?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think having someone to just say, this is normal.
Guest:That's fine.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Let that go.
Guest:This is, you know, just a little clarity.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And so...
Marc:And sometimes if it's a significant other who's there with you all the time, you're going to take out whatever anger or frustration you're having.
Marc:Like, what do you know?
Marc:And like, no.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Unfortunately.
Marc:When did you have that first kid?
Marc:What point in the career was it?
Guest:That was in 99.
Guest:It was after my first solo.
Marc:So you're out of belly already.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So there's a whole new life now.
Marc:A whole new life.
Marc:A whole new life.
Marc:Solo.
Marc:A whole new life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Solo Tanya.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Family.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And so the first kid was rough.
Marc:It was rough.
Yeah.
Guest:It was just more, the learning curve for me was steep and long, but not rough.
Guest:I mean, I wouldn't say rough because that was, you know, just that experience.
Marc:Now, was Kristen there to help you out?
Guest:Yeah, she gave me some tips, but she was, you know, touring.
Marc:Always out there, huh?
Marc:Always.
Marc:Like, what kind of room was she playing?
Always.
Guest:Um, I'm not, you know, it's, it changes sometimes.
Guest:It depends on what her incarnation is.
Guest:Cause she is, she still does music.
Guest:She does 50 foot waves.
Guest:She's solo.
Guest:So, um, she has a, it depends on who she's with the size of them.
Guest:It's, you know, clubs to theaters to coffee, you know, depending on what she's.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:She just loves it.
Marc:She's just moving all the time.
Marc:So, so what, like, so do you help people give birth?
Guest:I was trained initially for birth work, but then I couldn't really weave that into my life very easily.
Guest:Because you never know what's going to... Yeah, and I can't put my own kids on pause for three days and disappear.
Guest:So yeah, I moved to postpartum, which is more easily schedulable.
Guest:And sort of more my... Not my area of interest, but I'm better at it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:For whatever reason.
Marc:But that's still considered a doula.
Marc:It's a postpartum doula.
Guest:Postpartum doula, yeah.
Guest:And that business is on hold.
Guest:I should be clear that I put that on hold.
Marc:No, you're not taking calls?
Guest:I'm not taking calls.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:No, I've had that since the belly tour, sure.
Marc:But I'm curious about it.
Marc:But when you did it, it was not a decision to stop doing music.
Marc:It was a decision to help have another stream of income.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And just to have some other area, to be honest, something where I was being helpful to someone else.
Marc:Yeah, that's a good part of the life.
Guest:Yeah, the focus was not on me.
Guest:Service.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, service.
Guest:I felt called to do it, dramatic as that sounds, that this is a way that I can really dig in and be useful.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And how does one train to do that?
Guest:There are several organizations that you can train through.
Guest:And what is it?
Guest:And you can kind of tailor your own level of training, too.
Marc:But where does the doula word come from?
Marc:Where does that tradition come from?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And it actually means, the word doula actually originally meant female servant.
Uh-huh.
Marc:But it feels like a new thing.
Marc:The field feels new to me.
Guest:Is it not?
Guest:It's not.
Marc:I mean, it's sort of- I guess there was a midwife back in the day?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that actually is where, back in the 60s, it kind of came from that movement, the midwifery movement.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so what you basically do is you go talk to panicky new mothers?
Marc:We're like, am I holding it right?
Guest:Well, it's amazing how, you know, I think every, you know, you just sort of, however you can say to yourself, it's okay if this isn't intuitive, but that's not how it feels.
Guest:It feels frightening if it's not, you know, if you're not viscerally just...
Guest:coming up with so it's frightening and also you're like why am i not yeah how i should be able to just yeah right that kind of thing yeah lactation is a big piece of it but there's also just you know sleep help and swaddling and just you know just you know holding the baby while someone takes a shower
Guest:I mean, it can be that simple.
Guest:It's a funny culture, though.
Guest:It's interesting because I feel like there are times when I want to say...
Guest:Your sister just called and said she'd bring food, and you said you've got this.
Guest:Just say yes, teaching people to say yes, teaching women to accept, help, and understand that that doesn't mean they're not...
Guest:succeeding in parenting.
Marc:That they're not failing and that your sister's not better than you.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:A lot of issues.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it brings up everything.
Marc:Oh, I can't imagine.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, life isn't competitive enough.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Now you've got to compete about whose kids got what and whether you're doing it right or not.
Guest:And if you're doing this right and how your choices weigh against other people's choices.
Marc:You need a lifetime doula.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's actually what my husband is always like.
Guest:You should be a band doula.
Marc:Bands need doulas.
Marc:That might be right.
Marc:That might be right.
Marc:So now tell me about the audiences.
Marc:I mean, are these people our age who are like, I remember you, like 50-year-old women with dyed hair still?
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:But then also, you know, Billy had sort of a, we had a big gap between our initial audience, the sort of feed the tree.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That was the big hit for you guys, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:They were a solid decade younger than we are.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, because by the time we were already in our- That was the first record, right?
Guest:In our mid-20s.
Marc:Was that the first record?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We were in our mid-20s, and the bulk of our audience was teens through early 20s.
Guest:So it's still-
Guest:it really runs and like i said you know people bring their adult kids and their kid kids and um and i think that also you know my my 19 year old is her experience of music is so different than mine it's not necessarily generational she sort of has a wide scope of stuff that she listens to so so we have that sort of new crowd also right um but yes for the most part it is it is us
Marc:It is us.
Marc:And they're happy, right?
Marc:They're happy to see you.
Guest:They're totally happy.
Guest:And we're happy to see them.
Guest:It's really very, it's oddly conversational.
Guest:There's a lot of talking that goes on.
Guest:And I don't know, we just sort of, I like them so much.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's a very, very, very positive in that room.
Guest:Always.
Guest:Always.
Marc:Yeah, and it's a community in a way.
Marc:These are your people.
Marc:It's sort of weird.
Guest:They're the hardcore last standers.
Guest:It's really nice.
Marc:But it also enables you to sort of be comfortable with your authentic self.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You don't have to play games anymore.
Guest:It's so different.
Guest:It feels really good.
Guest:And I feel like...
Guest:The fact that people genuinely like the new album, too, adds validity.
Guest:It's not so much a vanity project anymore or some nostalgia trip.
Guest:Really, for us, it gives some credence to what we're doing.
Guest:It makes us feel...
Guest:You know, relevant.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:Not that there's anything wrong with a reunion tour on its own.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I'm fine.
Guest:That would have been fine, too, if that's all we did.
Marc:But it's sort of weird because, like, you know, obviously you're playing stuff from the first two records.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the thing is, it's not really a reunion tour because you released a record and it's a belly record.
Marc:And oddly, it's informed by everyone's age and wisdom.
Marc:But you guys have a sound.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that's not nothing.
Guest:It's still the same four people.
Marc:But think about how many people don't have a fucking sound.
Marc:There are bands out there just plugging away and they listen to their heroes too much and you can hear other people in them.
Marc:It's not that they're bad musicians, but they haven't landed on that thing that defines them, and you guys have that.
Marc:Oh, thank you.
Marc:That's nice.
Marc:That's an amazing thing, really.
Guest:That's very kind.
Marc:No, it's true.
Marc:And aside from that, it was great seeing you.
Guest:It was great seeing you, too.
Guest:I'm happy to see you again.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Guest:And congratulations on everything.
Marc:Well, thank you.
Guest:We were in the car on the way here, and Jess, my friends with me, was like, I think Paul McCartney.
Guest:and he was there yesterday.
Guest:No, he wasn't here.
Guest:Well, I was like, I said, I was quiet for a second.
Guest:I said, am I the least auspicious person he's ever talked to?
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:I don't even know what auspicious means, I don't think.
Guest:I want that.
Marc:What is auspicious?
Guest:That's the title that I'm like, you know, celebrated.
Marc:Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Marc:I've had, you're definitely not the least auspicious.
Marc:I want a card.
Guest:I want that to be the least that you want to be.
Guest:I want that to be my.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Well, to set the record straight, I he didn't come here.
Marc:I had to sort of like I got included in a Capitol Records event where he was a special surprise guest at this yearly thing.
Marc:They do this confab.
Marc:So it was sort of an in-house thing where I agreed to do it if I could use the podcast.
Marc:So I talked to him in front of 800 people.
Marc:It was not like this candidate.
Guest:That's great.
Marc:It is, but I wonder what it would have been like if it was like this.
Marc:Like right here.
Marc:It's a very different thing doing a live thing, especially with an entertainer like him who's got this.
Guest:He's got his thing down.
Marc:Sure, when you live in front of an audience, you naturally are going to... It's a different thing, but it was still pretty good.
Marc:It was pretty good.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But this was nice for me because I'm not reminiscing about a Beatles history.
Marc:We have a lot of shared history.
Marc:It was nice seeing you.
Guest:It was really nice to see you too.
Marc:Thanks for coming.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Tonya Donnelly, what a nice catch-up.
Marc:Not catch-up.
Marc:What a nice catch-up session we had.
Marc:Belly's new album, Dove, is available wherever you get music.
Marc:And it's exciting.
Marc:I mean, it sounds like a Belly record, and they haven't done a Belly record in 23 years.
Marc:It's nice.
Marc:I'm on the road, no guitar.
Marc:Just one jazz phrase from my mouth trumpet.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:That was real fun.