Episode 94 - Mike Birbiglia
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Marron.
Marc:Okay, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fucking nots?
Marc:What the fuck nicks and what the fuck ups?
Marc:I seem to be continually adding to these.
Marc:I thought I was done with it.
Marc:I thought I had made a decision.
Marc:I thought we knew what was up.
Marc:But no, some of them keep coming in and I keep deciding to add new ones on.
Marc:Folks, I don't know what to tell you.
Marc:I really don't other than I'm sorry.
Marc:I'm a spiteful fuck.
Marc:Are you a spiteful fuck?
Marc:I mean, I know a lot of you know me.
Marc:You know me pretty well by this point, if you're listening a lot.
Marc:And by the way, I want to thank all of you who came out to the shows in Alston, Massachusetts, and in Cambridge, Massachusetts, at Great Scott, and also at the Comedy Studio.
Marc:Had a good time.
Marc:We had great shows.
Marc:I don't know if I already thanked you, but I'm thanking you again, because they were great, and I'm hoping to see some of you in London.
Marc:But I am a spiteful fuck, and I try to manage it, and there's just something about it.
Marc:I don't know what it is.
Marc:Why does spite feel better than... Is love the opposite of spite?
Marc:I don't fucking even know.
Marc:I need to get over this, though.
Marc:My resentment has paralyzed me for years, and I think I'm getting better at it.
Marc:The reason I'm bringing this up is I'm going to talk to Mike Birbiglia,
Marc:And this is a guy that I've resented for years.
Marc:I feel like I've known him since he was a kid, and I've done nothing but spite him.
Marc:And I don't know why.
Marc:It's just there's something about the compression, the tightness, the pressure, the tension of spite.
Marc:that feels so fucking satisfying.
Marc:Why does it feel good to hate on somebody?
Marc:Not even hate, but you know what I'm saying.
Marc:Be self-righteous and sort of condescending, and it's a control thing.
Marc:But I do know that throughout Mike's career,
Marc:I saw him start as a comic, and I didn't like him then because I knew his sister was in the business, and I thought, like, that should make a fucking difference.
Marc:What are these principles we put together for ourselves?
Marc:What are these rules that we put together for ourselves?
Marc:Like, when I'm younger, it was some sort of violation that his sister was in show business, and now he was going to start as a comic.
Marc:Like, that didn't count.
Marc:The fact that Jesse Klein used to work at Comedy Central, that means that she can't be a comedian.
Marc:I mean, I used to have these principles in place that some of them are just ridiculous.
Marc:People have jobs.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So that was strike one against Mike.
Marc:All right.
Marc:And then he started doing comedy.
Marc:And then, you know, he was picking up some momentum.
Marc:And then he started doing theater pieces.
Marc:And he came to see my theater piece.
Marc:At the time, the Jerusalem syndrome, and he was into it, and then he used to talk to me about long-form monologues, and then he did his own, and then he started telling me to come to his shows.
Marc:I would never come to his shows because I literally took it as an attack.
Marc:He would say, why don't you come see my show?
Marc:And I'd be like, what are you saying that you're – well, you just want to put it in my face, that you're better than me?
Marc:And this has been going on for years.
Marc:And I try to deal with it because I know he's a good guy.
Marc:I know he's a talented guy.
Marc:I know he's paid his dues.
Marc:But this is one of the last sort of holdouts of my spite gallery.
Marc:You know, there's a spite gallery in my head.
Marc:And there are people whose pictures have been hanging in the spite gallery for years.
Marc:You know, Jon Stewart, he's got his own room in the spite gallery.
Marc:Louis C.K., my dear friend.
Marc:Who knows?
Marc:He knows.
Marc:He knows how I feel.
Marc:He's got a few places in the Spike Gallery.
Marc:Mike Perbiglia has a few pictures up in the Spike Gallery.
Marc:There are others, none that I can think of right offhand, but they're just certain people that you judge yourself against.
Marc:uh and i don't i don't know why that is i mean the thing with john stewart was paralyzing to me for years because i thought we were similar i thought we were charming i thought we you know we're funny we're jewish we're smart and he was so such a huge success there was a period there where he would be on all these magazines and everything else and it was just i could not walk down the street without his fuck you face uh just you know on newsstands it was ridiculous
Marc:pow i just shit my pants sorry just coffee.coop so how do we get over this we just gotta let it go let love in is that the deal i just don't you know i hope this goes well with mike because uh you know i gotta get over this stuff and he's definitely one of these dudes i gotta make uh you know i gotta apologize to for being a dick because you know i i saw him on letterman
Marc:And he's very good.
Marc:He's a very skilled comedian.
Marc:He does a rare thing.
Marc:He does single story jokes.
Marc:That's hard to do.
Marc:I'm a big fan of that.
Marc:There's only a few people that do that.
Marc:Al Madrigal does it, and it's hard to do.
Marc:And I like the guy, but I've got a big...
Marc:I feel like I've got a big hatchet to bury on this one.
Marc:Because I've been a spiteful cunt.
Marc:And I'm referring to me.
Marc:I'm going to England.
Marc:So I'm trying to integrate that word in a sociable way.
Marc:I have met people who have liked me so much.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Were they working for you?
Marc:No.
Marc:I had a fan, Mike.
Marc:Now, I don't know about your fans.
Marc:Mike Birbiglia is talking to me, which is nice because I've been nasty to him.
Marc:I mean, really fucking nasty.
Marc:I was embarrassed how nasty I was the last time that I was nasty to you, and you probably don't even notice it.
Marc:But I have fans.
Guest:The only reason I noticed is because my director was with me.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:And he goes, we walked away.
Guest:Because I came up to you, and I was like, hey, Mark, I think I'm going to come see your show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you were like, I don't need this shit.
Guest:You were like so mean.
Guest:I was like, this is my director.
Guest:And you're like, I don't fucking need this.
Guest:This is the last thing I need.
Guest:And then we walked away and I'm having lunch with Seth and my director on Sleepwalk with me.
Guest:And I was like, so I'm going to go back to the show.
Guest:He goes, you're going to go to his show after what he just said to you?
Guest:And I was like, I feel like as a comedian, people are so mean to each other.
Guest:Comedians are so mean to each other that you become immune to it after a while.
Guest:So I was like, yeah, I think.
Guest:And he was like, I don't know why you do this to yourself.
Guest:You're just a glutton for punishment.
Guest:And so I didn't go, actually.
Marc:I know you didn't talk me out of it.
Marc:He talked you out of it because he, but it was really just me, you know, having a moment of, uh,
Marc:deep resentment at the structure of things.
Marc:I mean, for me to be playing in the basement of your successful run, though a coincidence, whatever the case.
Marc:Coincidence, yeah.
Marc:No, of course.
Marc:I mean, I don't think you planned your run saying like, is there any chance that Marc Maron will be workshopping a show downstairs?
Marc:Because I really need to pull rank on him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I always assume that about you anyways.
Marc:I assume that because of your niceness and your sort of ambitious disposition, that somehow or another you're arrogant.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:And you may be.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:We'll find out.
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:You don't think so.
Marc:But for the longest time, because I knew that there was a time where you were coming to see my shows and you were excited and you liked my shows.
Marc:And then when you started doing shows, you were like, are you coming to see my show?
Marc:I heard it as like, I'm going to show you, fucker.
Marc:Oh, God.
Yeah.
Guest:That's awful.
Guest:What?
Guest:I'm just telling you.
Guest:Your brain is despicable.
Guest:I'm just kidding.
Guest:I'm kidding.
Guest:I'm kidding.
Guest:That's too strong.
Guest:Too strong.
Marc:No, but you know what's funny?
Marc:Troubled.
Marc:Troubled.
Guest:You know what's funny about it?
Marc:But I apologize for that, by the way.
Marc:I know, and I appreciate it.
Guest:I got the email back then.
Marc:You sent me an email.
Guest:I did.
Guest:You sent me an email, and this is kind of a clue into Mark's brain and how it works.
Guest:I got an email from you like three months after it happened.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Yeah, and it was just like, hey, sorry about that, man.
Guest:And that was it.
Guest:It was just like, oh, Mark's been mulling this over for some time.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:But, you know, it's funny is that over the years, just to paint the full picture of the Marc Maron, Mike Birbiglia relationship, I mean, you've also been very sweet to me.
Guest:And I think actually that's what's painful about our relationship is that we go back and forth between you being very sweet to me and you being very mean to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's like a father-like relationship in that way.
Guest:Because I really admire you, and I always have.
Guest:As a matter of fact, I never told you this.
Guest:Maybe I told you this at some point.
Guest:When I was in college, I was such a big fan of yours that I loosely based a play I wrote on you and Dave Attal and a composite of a few other comedians.
Guest:And was I the angry... Yeah, you were a troubled comedian who will never sustain a relationship.
Oh.
Marc:I'm so glad that I outgrew that.
Marc:I'm happy that that didn't turn out to be true.
Marc:Your intuitions were not at all right.
Marc:Now, I have your book.
Marc:Your publisher sent it.
Marc:I've read the table of contents.
Marc:But I had every intention, because I do like you again.
Marc:And I never disliked you.
Marc:It's just a jealousy thing with me, and you've got to know that.
Marc:That my worst...
Marc:Really, it's not a judgment on you.
Marc:I would never say that you were a bad comic.
Marc:I would never say that you're anything but a hardworking, funny guy that a lot of people like.
Marc:But you're just a guy that figured something out for yourself.
Marc:And you seem to have the discipline and the ambition and the talent to make a lot of things go right.
Marc:And what I've learned from...
Marc:talking to other performers is that you know that doesn't just happen uh you know people who get to where you are work hard and you work hard and i'm not you know and for me i work so hard i jump out windows well that that's true you're that in your sleep you want to die yeah they actually have a name for it i think it's called like pseudo suicide parasomnia pseudo suicide so people die in their sleep
Marc:But that is not the name of your ailment.
Marc:Your sleepwalk.
Guest:Well, it would have been had I died.
Guest:Had I died.
Marc:Now, what you're talking about, I don't know how many people who listen to my show know you, and I'm sure a lot of them do, is a sleepwalk with me.
Marc:That is the show and the book coming out soon.
Marc:When is it out?
Guest:October 12.
Marc:Can you preorder it?
Marc:Sleepwalk with me and other painfully true stories.
Guest:that's all based on true you you were synambulist is that what they call it synambulism yeah i i was diagnosed with after i jumped through the window with what's called rem behavior disorder um that's what they call it yep they don't call it synambulism anymore well no that's i think synambulism i'm not i don't even know if i'm pronouncing it right is that how you pronounce it well i think that's kind of a catch-all for a lot of sleep disorders okay um but the specific disorder i'm diagnosed with is rem behavior disorder and
Guest:Some sleep apnea and traces of narcolepsy.
Marc:Traces of narcolepsy?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that going to happen during the show?
Guest:Hard to say.
Guest:Well, you were suggesting I sit on the bed and I thought that was a bad idea because I could fall asleep.
Guest:I just ate a sandwich and I could fall asleep.
Marc:You could just fall asleep in the middle of a conversation?
Marc:It's possible.
Marc:Has it happened?
Guest:As happened with my wife.
Marc:Well, that happens in every marriage.
Marc:But getting back to why I like you, and then we'll talk about sweep walking, is that you started out as a doorman, right?
Guest:Yeah, the DC Improv.
Marc:So a lot of people say that, I don't know if you're considered an alternative comic or what you're considered, but the truth of the matter is you always wanted to do comedy, and you started the way that comics do.
Marc:I started as a doorman.
Marc:You were a doorman at a comedy club.
Marc:Yeah, you were at the comedy store.
Marc:Right, so you could learn how to do comedy.
Marc:absolutely and then comedy college i always suggest it to people is it still an available job i guess it is there's a lot of guys that still do it sure like my manager started out as a manager of a comedy club that's the way the system works yeah so when you were starting out what year was that 97 is when i got that job really see 97 yeah you've only been doing comedy 13 years
Guest:Yeah, 13, 14 years, yeah.
Marc:I don't like you again.
Guest:Are you serious?
Marc:No, I'm okay.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:14 years, that's not enough for you?
Marc:No, it's enough, but you're almost done, it seems.
Marc:No, I'm not.
Marc:I'm so far from done.
Marc:You've done everything already.
Marc:What happens now?
Marc:Do you retire?
Marc:Are you serious?
Marc:What happens now?
Guest:You and I had this conversation months ago.
Guest:You don't understand.
Guest:I'm struggling like everybody else.
Guest:You are?
Guest:I'm not set in any way.
Guest:My wife and I live in a small apartment in New York City.
Guest:I work the road all the time to make a living.
Guest:Do you draw everywhere?
Guest:I'm not one of these guys like Gaffigan or Dane or one of these guys who's stacking up millions.
Marc:I don't have that, man.
Marc:Okay, I feel better.
Marc:So...
Marc:But you do like, but here's why I got the renewed respect is that I watched your last Letterman.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you really know how to write a fucking story joke.
Marc:Like all the form that you chose, which is not an easy form.
Marc:And it's not a form that everyone does that hardly anybody does anymore.
Marc:which is storytelling stand-up, which means it's not alternative.
Marc:It's not anything other than stand-up because when you do stories, when you do story jokes, you have to beat them out.
Marc:I mean, there are jokes within the story and people don't realize it.
Marc:I only know a couple of people that do it.
Marc:Madrigal does it.
Marc:You do it.
Marc:Larry Miller used to do it, but I don't know a lot of guys that do that form of joke telling anymore, that form of stand-up, and it's fucking great to see, and it's a rare thing.
Marc:It takes balls.
Marc:Because if you're doing a story joke and it ain't sticking in the first minute and it's a five minute piece.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:There's a lot in the type of comedy that I do.
Guest:There's so much failure.
Marc:Yeah, I can't imagine.
Guest:So much failure.
Guest:No matter how big you get or anything.
Guest:Because you always have to work it out on stage.
Guest:Right.
Guest:One of yours and my conversations from probably like seven or eight years ago at the Comedy Store, which is actually when you liked me best.
Guest:I had just come off of a breakup.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I was so self-loathing and sad.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you were like, let's talk.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was at the comedy store.
Guest:It was like I was standing at the Hyatt next door and it was probably like two in the morning.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm alone at the comedy store.
Guest:I mean, I'm just miserable.
Guest:Wandering around.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was having one of those kind of moments of like, you know, my life is nowhere and I've ruined my life by essentially ending a relationship that was redeeming in a lot of ways.
Guest:Like I was with this girl who was so much better than me as a human being in a lot of ways.
Marc:That's not hard to find as a comic.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And I walked away from that.
Guest:And of course, I'm going, well, I ruined everything.
Guest:And you were like, you did, and it's okay.
Guest:That was kind of what you said to me.
Guest:And that was the closest that you and I have ever been, was that night, because I think that you're attracted to misery.
Guest:I think you're attracted to sadness like a moth to a flame.
Marc:I think I'm wired to receive it.
Marc:I would agree with you at a different point in my life because my dad's manic depressive.
Marc:So I think that I am programmed to connect to sadness.
Marc:But I do not like the feeling of... I had it happen today.
Marc:I talked to a fellow that I don't know that well who is clearly depressed because I can sense it like a dog hears those whistles.
Marc:I can feel people's...
Guest:you know depression and sadness sure and i i have to put a boundary up unless because i think part of me thought that that's how i interact with people yeah and as i get older i realize that's not true i just have to say like look i i hope you're okay but i i can't my mom made that point once about because i was talking to her about like oprah and all these dr oz and dr phil type shows and yeah and i was saying it seems good overall that they kind of like you know get people to talk about their feelings and their problems and blah blah and
Guest:My mom's a nurse and my dad's a doctor and she was saying, yeah, but the danger actually is that you kind of open people up and then they don't go to see a doctor and they don't follow up.
Guest:And so they're kind of have an open wound that is never properly followed up on.
Marc:And they think that you can fill it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That like, you know, like, oh God, you opened me up.
Marc:Where are you going?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:And, you know, it's taken me a long time to deal with that.
Marc:You know, I feel that...
Marc:Most of our problems is really – I bonded with you because you were in a tough place, and I'm not a guy that abandons guys.
Marc:I mean, if I can show up for somebody, I will, even if I don't know you or like you that much.
Guest:But one of the things that you said to me in our long – it was kind of a marathon conversation was you said that real – you make a lot of kind of –
Guest:platitudes about comedy and things like that.
Guest:I used to.
Guest:Or you don't anymore.
Guest:No, I try not to.
Guest:Well, one of the things that you said, two things that you said that always stuck with me.
Guest:One was that... I hope they're good.
Guest:One of them is that real comedians are social satirists.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's always stuck with me.
Guest:And I always think about that.
Guest:Is this satirizing something?
Guest:And it doesn't have to be politics or culture, but is it a comment on something that's real?
Guest:And then the other thing that you said was that
Guest:real comedians this is a stretch real comedians never write anything down which which is funny because that's probably just a dig at you yeah because i write a lot of stuff down i have my laptop everywhere i write all kinds of shit down i just don't i don't i can't read it later
Guest:But the thing that you're saying about developing comedy as a story, it actually requires a lot of flying without a net and dying on stage with no script and recording.
Marc:I just record like crazy.
Marc:Right, that's what I do, and sometimes I listen to it.
Marc:And that's why I respect you and maybe why there's jealousy, because I think that you've done something that I like doing, but you've made it palatable.
Marc:Your life and the way you see things
Marc:is unique, but it's not going to make people uncomfortable.
Marc:yeah maybe i mean like you know you're not you there's not part of you that that maybe i'm wrong but i mean i have a part of me that that fights an audience yeah and it's the same part of me that you think like sadness that you know there's just part of me that like if you like me you know how can you like me i don't like me whatever it is i haven't quite figured it out but i have to i have to fight to stay open in a way that isn't just sad yeah you know and allow people to have a nice experience you seem to do that
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I work on that.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Like, I mean, what do you mean?
Guest:Like, so you've got... Like, in the sense that, like, I work with a director, Seth Barish, who directed Sleepwalk with me, and he's directing my new show, My Girlfriend's Boyfriend, which I just got back from Montreal and Toronto.
Guest:I did it there.
Marc:What's that about?
Guest:It's about... It's an offshoot of this story I did in This American Life about how I was in a car accident where I was hit by a drunk driver.
Guest:I was nearly killed in Los Angeles.
Guest:And...
Marc:What do you mean nearly killed you in the hospital?
Guest:Like in the sense that I was T-boned, driver's side.
Marc:Oh, okay, in the car.
Guest:Yeah, so if it was like inches from me, I'd be dead, for sure.
Guest:You know, my car spun around, and my car was totaled.
Marc:Were you in the hospital?
Guest:No, I was...
Marc:It was just one of those things you look at the car and you're like, holy fuck.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:That's literally in the story.
Marc:In that car.
Guest:I should be dead.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then in this odd turn of events, I was made to pay for the driver's car.
Guest:The drunk driver's car.
Guest:This is actually, if anyone wants to hear the full story, it's an episode called Return to the Scene of the Crime on This American Life.
Guest:Just to give some podcast sharing.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:He needs more listeners.
Yeah.
Guest:But anyway, the gist of it was I had to pay for this guy's car.
Guest:It was like $12,000.
Guest:And I think you and I probably have this in common is that when I think I'm right about something, it can be a real source of contention between me and people I'm close to.
Guest:And the reason it's a source of contention is that I'm right is my joke.
Marc:And you may not realize at that time that you're just being stubborn.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And so I and so I was I was really dead set.
Guest:I mean, I was I was on online up until four or five in the morning every night researching California state driving laws and printing out Google Maps of the scene of the accident.
Guest:I was on a site called Net Detective.
Marc:This is like your Lenny Bruce moment.
Marc:You became obsessed with the legalities of the situation.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:But in a really relatable way.
Guest:And it wasn't like, I'm being screwed by the government.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, it was.
Guest:And strung out on heroin.
Guest:It was literally like I was on the phone with lawyers, private investigators.
Guest:And I was like, I'm going to sue this guy.
Guest:And I'm going to sue the LAPD.
Marc:Why did you?
Marc:What was the crux of the reason that you had to pay for his car?
Marc:Because he was uninsured?
Guest:No, because the accident report, the officer checked the box that found me at fault.
Guest:And then the officer didn't this.
Guest:This happens all the time.
Guest:The officer checks the box that says you're at fault.
Guest:There's a thing on the thing.
Guest:They put in a number.
Guest:It's a number that signifies who's at fault.
Guest:And there were so many incongruities and mistakes in the report.
Guest:And it clearly says he's drunk and all this stuff.
Guest:But yet it said that I was at fault in California state driving law.
Guest:If you're at fault, then you owe regardless of anything.
Guest:Basically, you owe the money.
Guest:And so I tried to get the cop on the phone.
Guest:Eventually I do get the cop on the phone and I just there's nothing I could do.
Guest:And I basically the show is about thematically about letting go of being right.
Guest:And in my relationship with my now wife and how I was so dead set against marriage or living with anyone, you know, I have like this really, I have like a list of like seven really concrete reasons why I don't believe in the idea of marriage.
Guest:One of which is I'm never going to be happy.
Guest:Why would anyone want to be a part of that?
Guest:And, you know, and just a lot of other kind of practical things like, you know, monogamy is impossible or very unlikely.
Guest:And, you know, that kind of stuff.
Marc:And you seem like a sort of a loyal, decent fella.
Guest:Yeah, I think at my best I am.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:I mean, I think I must misjudge you.
Guest:In what sense?
Marc:Well, just in the sense that like, you know, because I had this sense that, you know, you were arrogant.
Marc:And this has happened to me before with you that, you know, you know, you thought the world of yourself that, you know, you're like you're, you know, but but you really just you're completely up in your head.
Marc:You're hard on yourself.
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:You're actually not arrogant.
Marc:You're socially retarded.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You're right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:OK.
Marc:I'm a mess.
Marc:How's your sister?
Guest:Gina.
Guest:She's good.
Guest:OK.
Guest:She's living in Providence with her family.
Guest:All right.
Guest:She introduced me to you.
Marc:Yeah, well, she worked at HBO, and then, you know, I remember, because she said, my brother's going to do stand-up.
Marc:I'm like, great, just what we need.
Guest:That's funny.
Marc:She's just adorable.
Guest:Yeah, Gina got me into all, I mean, to Gina's credit, got me into the right comedy, you know, when I was in college.
Marc:Right, she was hanging around Luna a little bit.
Guest:Sent me Mitch Hedberg's special, sent me your special, you know.
Marc:Well, it's amazing you didn't become a drug addict.
Guest:Sent me a drug addict.
Guest:sent me a tell special oh fuck and you didn't end up with a drinking or drug problem and those were the three comics she sent you yeah how'd she manage not to get fucked up you're just not the kind of guy i i mean i'm fucked up in the sense that i i have a serious sleep disorder where i jump through a window so i think that matches up to pretty much any drug but you're not getting any fun out of that yeah i don't know
Marc:You came up with some guys, though, right?
Marc:I mean, how do you know?
Marc:Did you go to school with Mulaney and Kroll?
Marc:Am I making that up?
Guest:Nick Kroll, I cast in my improv group in college.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And he and I have been friends since college.
Guest:We were in a group called the Georgetown Players.
Guest:And then Mulaney was cast by Nick a year after I left.
Guest:and so i know i would go back and do like workshops you started the group i was one of the people who started it yeah and and then mulaney when he got out of school i took him on the road to open for me for about a year or so and um and so yeah that's how i know nick and so your generation is really like you know nick mulaney a kroll dimitri
Guest:Dimitri was before me.
Guest:When I showed up in New York, Dimitri was huge.
Guest:People were like, oh, you're good, but you should see Dimitri.
Marc:Why were they comparing you?
Marc:Were you being Hedberg-y at the time?
Guest:I feel like it, yeah.
Guest:I had a Hedberg phase.
Marc:yeah everyone goes through these phases of their heroes and then like the good guys they kind of transcend it or make it their own somehow yeah at a certain point i was just like no actually what i'm good at is this you know something else so you're telling me how now what your draw when you go out you're big everywhere you just big where the radio gets where where's that at now can you sell out what a 500 seat theater anywhere you go now
Guest:This fall, I'm going to venues that range from about 700 to 1800.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:In specific markets or anywhere?
Guest:This fall is like D.C., Philly, Boston, L.A., San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, which are pretty comedy-friendly, public radio-friendly markets.
Marc:So you think that it's mostly the This American Life stuff?
Guest:This American Life stuff is tremendously helpful.
Guest:I mean, their audience is so smart.
Marc:And they're great.
Marc:Yeah, it's a huge audience.
Guest:Yeah, and then, you know, there's been Comedy Central fans from the start because they've done three specials on there.
Guest:So it's kind of this accumulation of people.
Guest:Bob and Tom helps a lot.
Guest:You know, yeah.
Marc:But were you always aware of that?
Marc:I mean, just for the people that are comedians, which are many who listen to this show,
Marc:You're one of these guys that other comics look at and say, well, he's fucking selling T-shirts.
Marc:He's doing a million things.
Marc:He's networking.
Marc:He's got a regular spot on Bob and Tom.
Marc:He can go on there whenever he wants.
Marc:Now, when you were coming up, when you started to get your act together, how calculating were you in devising this thing?
Marc:system because some guys are like you know they know they're going somewhere they wake up they could be in dc and they're going to los angeles they're doing morning radio in los angeles they're waking up at three in the morning to do it from dc for like there are guys that are that that can focus their talent creatively and their ambition you know productively yeah and you strike me as someone who does that how calculating are you with that stuff no seriously no i'm if you're talking to a young comic
Guest:No, I think... Well, it's funny because the t-shirts thing you're saying, like, yeah, I sell t-shirts.
Guest:Yeah, but two things.
Guest:One, so do bands.
Marc:No, no, I'm not... It's not a negative.
Guest:No, no, I know.
Guest:But I'm just saying, like... And there's other things.
Guest:I don't really make money on t-shirts.
Guest:You don't?
Guest:No.
Guest:We... Like, I would... I'd make a lot of money if I had some kind of shitty, you know, kind of, like...
Guest:catchphrase-y, like, hey, I don't know what these people tell us.
Guest:A lot of comics, they'll sell t-shirts where it's not even their joke.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:It's just kind of like some hokey Spencer Gifts kind of thing.
Guest:Yeah, but that bear is just like a good-looking shirt.
Guest:With a bear and a microphone.
Guest:It's like an icon of a bear.
Guest:It's like a drawing of a bear.
Guest:Did you come up with that?
Guest:No, this artist who I went to college with did it.
Marc:So it's just... And it's become your trademark?
Guest:I guess so, yeah.
Marc:You don't make any money off your fucking t-shirts?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, we kind of break even.
Guest:Like, my goal with all that stuff is just, like, I want people to come to the shows.
Guest:And if you give them t-shirts, then they'll remember that, oh, yeah, that show was great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Let's go to that show again.
Guest:And, like, basically...
Guest:let me i'll boil it down to this when i was like 23 i was like a year out of college lucian hold uh the comic strip who's passed away alive now um he took to me he ran the comic strip and he got me into montreal comedy festival new faces which is like a
Guest:big deal yeah you know when you're then it was yeah it's still kind of it was even yeah it was even bigger yeah and bigger and and so and it went well you know at least in my head and then and then you know everybody my agent and my manager were like you gotta go to la to get a deal i actually have a chapter in my book about this where like where i was like okay a deal for what yeah
Guest:And they're like, for a sitcom.
Guest:And I was like, I was thinking to myself, I don't even want to be on a sitcom.
Guest:That's not a goal.
Guest:But they were like, they'll give you $100,000.
Guest:And I was like, oh, I got to get a deal.
Marc:That's a small deal.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:At that time, you could have gone for $250.
Marc:I thought there were $250 was a goal.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:But I was so broke and everything.
Guest:I was just like, oh, yeah, let's get a deal.
Guest:And I went out there, took all these meetings with all the networks.
Guest:I still have the itinerary.
Guest:I had like 27 meetings in a week.
Guest:wow that must have been fake networks too yeah exactly production companies and every every meeting they're like they'd be like you're gonna get a deal you're great you know and i was like yeah i'm gonna get a deal and then and then you know cut to like a week later i'm flying home and it's just hitting me like i don't have a deal
Guest:you know and i had called like that week i had gone from being like i don't know what a deal is to being like i'm gonna get a deal i'm gonna i'm i'm gonna be dating heather locklear i'm gonna be a millionaire and i was calling people i knew like hey listen to this yeah i'm gonna be a millionaire and and i flew home and i was and i didn't have a deal and and and i never got one from that and
Guest:And that was the point at which I was like, no more fake stuff.
Guest:And that's why I went on the road.
Guest:I was like, the road's not fake, it's real.
Marc:I mean, that's the noble path as a comic.
Marc:That's a sign of somebody who wants to be a real comic.
Marc:And what I'm hearing is a guy who wanted to be a real comic.
Marc:Because I was the same way.
Marc:I don't want a sitcom.
Marc:But there was a caveat to it.
Marc:It was like, unless it can be exactly me doing exactly what I do.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Which it can never be.
Guest:I mean, I was hearing Adam Carolla was saying this the other day.
Guest:He's just like, if someone gives you money, they want something back.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, you can't do what you want to do if somebody hands you money.
Marc:Yeah, but the big test is what we're all looking for.
Marc:I think he's right.
Marc:But I think that you are given money at different points in your life.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they do want something back, but they don't always know what they want.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you have to figure out how to give them exactly what you want and have them want it as well.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's a big trick.
Marc:But then in the long run, that has to make them money.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If you don't make someone else's money, you're useless on any level.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Whether it's performing on the road, doing a sitcom, a play, it doesn't matter.
Marc:Even if the thing is great and critics think you're a genius, if you don't make someone else money, you're not going to get another opportunity.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Yeah, it's business.
Marc:So that's the sort of thing when you see somebody like Louis, C.K., who's taken all this time in all these different shots and clearly has a certain genius, and now he's gotten himself into a position where he's doing exactly what he wants to do.
Guest:Yeah, it's incredible.
Guest:I love the show.
Marc:Yeah, it's a hell of a roll of the dice.
Marc:I mean, we're going to see what happens.
Marc:But he's going to walk away from that, whatever happens.
Marc:He did what he wanted to do.
Marc:I did it my way.
Marc:Right.
Marc:There's no one to blame but me.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I was on the phone with Dave Beck yesterday.
Guest:Is he your manager?
Marc:Not anymore.
Marc:No?
Marc:No.
Marc:I have no bad blood.
Marc:He's Louie's manager.
Guest:And your manager.
Guest:And I, yeah.
Guest:And I said to him, I was like, I want, I want Louie's deal.
Guest:I want to do exactly what I want to do for no money.
Guest:I mean, I'll do it for nothing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Just let me do what I want to do.
Guest:And, and Dave was laughing.
Guest:He's just like, oh man, this is going to be the new thing that everybody says.
Guest:I want Louie's deal.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And what did he say?
Guest:Well, try.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I guess like it's not no money.
Marc:And I imagine that, you know, I, you know, there was some money.
Marc:No, no, no, no, no.
Marc:What I'm saying is that like you're saying you would forfeit a salary.
Guest:I would take a hit like my play off Broadway.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I lost a fortune.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You did?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Because you sold tickets.
Guest:I sold tickets, but my deal was so bad.
Guest:with who well who made the money the theater and who the production entity yeah i don't you know i'm sorry there's producers and financiers and there's all kind of people and at the end of the day i mean i mean i don't even i don't know who made money who didn't whatever right but i was on salary okay and was it a guarantee it was a guarantee so that's what you got yeah so i was instead of taking a gamble on numbers you said i want guarantee salary
Marc:Basically, yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Instead of putting up half a million dollars myself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I took this minuscule guarantee.
Guest:And yeah, and I took a hit for months and months.
Guest:But what I got out of it was this incredible artistic experience that I never, no one's casting me off Broadway in a show.
Marc:Look, I'm talking to you in a hotel room.
Marc:I'm doing something in my garage, but I've never been more fulfilled.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:I mean, just to have the sort of freedom to do whatever the hell you want.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Or do it on your own terms, and people are coming to see me.
Marc:I mean, it feels great.
Guest:I think actually one of the things that economically is interesting about comedy is that I feel like we're in, and I'm even reluctant to say this because I hate the idea of it, I feel like we're in kind of a comedy boom right now, the way that people describe the 80s, you know, where it was like,
Guest:People are, comedians are selling out theaters.
Marc:I think they're finding their people.
Marc:People are finding their people.
Guest:But I think that the reason why is that comedy actually is good right now.
Guest:And the reason comedy is good is because the period of time when this generation of popular comedians came up, there was no money in comedy.
Guest:And so they got in for the right reasons.
Guest:You know, Louis didn't get into comedy to make money.
Guest:You didn't get into comedy to make money.
Guest:You know, I didn't get into comedy to make money.
Guest:No one was making money in the 90s.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But because we want to be common, they want to be because we want to be comics.
Guest:But now I think the danger is there's like there's a hundred thousand people trying to be comedians.
Marc:I got a real problem with it.
Guest:Yeah, I do too.
Guest:Because I've talked to more guys who come up to me, and I'll give advice to any comedian, but I have more people come up to me.
Guest:How do you get an agent?
Guest:How do you get a sitcom?
Guest:How do you get this?
Guest:I'm like, I don't know.
Marc:I don't know what happened because I was thinking about it.
Marc:I was trying to think about it to myself or try to figure out how and why.
Marc:I have no problem with people trying something.
Marc:I have no problem with people wanting to be stand-ups.
Marc:I do have a problem with people that perform one or two sets in front of an audience of 12 other comics and then call themselves a comedian.
Marc:I would not have called myself a comedian until I was paid for being a comedian.
Marc:I just felt like I'm trying to be a comic or I'm an open mic.
Marc:That bothers me.
Marc:I don't want to deter anybody from their creative dreams.
Marc:But what I don't understand is when the fuck did it become so not frightening?
Marc:there's no intimidation well I mean it used to be like oh my god you're a comic I could never do that now it's like you're a comic I'm doing that yeah what do you mean you're doing it yeah I do comedy too where all of a sudden it seems like a reasonable fucking job for people that everybody thinks that they can do it I think that's the problem is that it seems very doable and you know but is it to make a living though I mean you got people saying how do I get a sitcom to me that's still there's still a drop off between a person who asks that you know their wisdom of anything
Marc:You know, really?
Marc:Like I'm saying that they really think that they can just get an agent and get a sitcom?
Marc:I mean, there's hardly any sitcoms on.
Marc:That person has to be a moron.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I guess, you know, how do I get booked here?
Guest:How do I get booked here?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It's just become, it's seemingly more doable.
Guest:I mean, I think it's similar to the 80s where there's a lot of comedy rooms.
Guest:There's a lot more comedy rooms now.
Guest:There's improvs everywhere.
Marc:But you don't think it's just by virtue of the fact that no one could get a job anywhere?
Marc:Like, they're like, there's no fucking jobs.
Marc:What the hell difference does it make?
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:I might as well be a comic.
Marc:I'm not going to do any better than the job I have.
Marc:Let me try this too.
Marc:That's what also bothers me about all these people.
Marc:For every comic that says he's a comic, for everybody who wants to be a comic, there's twice as many people sitting around waiting to call comics thieves and liars.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:This is the weirdest thing to me.
Marc:Like, I understand the whole stealing thing and the whole like, you know, other people's material and stuff.
Marc:But look, if there are 30 to 40,000 people doing stand up comedy, someone's going to have to make a list of jokes and topics that everyone is going to do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And shut the fuck up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:Your episodes on that are great.
Guest:The Robin Williams one and the Mencia one.
Marc:so good i had a guy tweet the other day like you know you were really funny doing that oh i saw david spade at ucb he was pretty funny but you know he would have been funnier hadn't he not done your joke about this oh and i wrote the guy back i said i don't do a joke about that i don't know what you're talking about he goes well and then he writes back like well it must have been someone else i'm like well you see this is how fucking shit gets started yeah like who the fuck are you who are you
Guest:you know my friend greek warren has the funniest joke about this where he's like because i'm sick of hearing every fucking middle in america tell me how shitty dane cook is yeah it's like headline a club and then tell me you think maybe dane cook isn't as good it's like he's a good he's a good comic you might not like what he does but he's a strong comic
Marc:Well, that's how they think they get their outlaw cachet, by shitting on other comics.
Marc:I just wish people would just shut the fuck up all around and just do your work.
Marc:Do your work.
Marc:Let's not go down this rabbit hole.
Marc:Let's talk about your fucking sweeping problem.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Because we didn't do that.
Marc:And I don't know if my listeners know you necessarily.
Marc:You have a REM disorder, but what does that mean?
Guest:REM behavior disorder means that I have a dopamine deficiency.
Guest:You probably know all about that.
Marc:Yeah, I'm on my second mocha.
Guest:Triple mocha.
Guest:And it basically means that people who have this are... You know, dopamine is the chemical that's released from your brain and your body when you fall asleep.
Guest:It paralyzes your body so you don't act out your dreams.
Guest:People who have this...
Guest:can you know act out their dreams sometimes what do i have violently sometimes they you know kill people they've been known people have been known to what people have what i have have actually killed other people yeah what judge is going to fall for that twice yeah i'm always running away in my dreams
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The dream that I had where I jumped out the window, it was that this is just marvelously symbolic.
Guest:The dream was that there was a guided missile headed towards my room.
Guest:Your room?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:La Quinta Inn in Walla Walla, Washington.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And there's all these military personnel in the room with me.
Guest:I jump out of bed.
Guest:I'm like, what's the plan?
Guest:And they say the coordinates are set on you specifically.
Guest:So I decide to jump out my window.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:that's what a lot of my dreams are that would disrupt the guided missile system yeah you could fool a lot of my dreams are like you know uh there's a hovering insect like jackal in my bedroom and i'll jump on the bed and i'll be like there's a jack i'll strike a karate pose there's a jackal in the room you know and it's yeah it's never i'm so i'm not aggressive as a person so i've never actually had any of these dreams where i'm where you win yeah i never win where you take on the beast and
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Like, actually, there's a specific one in my show where I'm like, I'm I'm in I'm I'm in the Olympics for like this arbitrary event, dust bustering.
Guest:And they tell me, you know, really.
Guest:And they tell me that I got third place and I stood up in the third place.
Guest:Dust bustering.
Guest:And they say, actually, we reconsidered.
Guest:You got second place.
Guest:And the joke I make in my show is like, even in my dreams, I don't win.
Guest:In my wildest dreams, I place.
Guest:And then I'm on the podium and it starts wobbling.
Guest:And I wake up and I'm falling off the top of our five-foot bookcase, me and my girlfriend at the time, onto the floor, onto my TiVo.
Marc:This is when you wake up?
Guest:Yeah, I wake up on the floor and there's TiVo pieces everywhere.
Guest:And my girlfriend wakes me up in the morning.
Guest:She says, what happened?
Guest:I said, I got second place and I'm really sorry.
Marc:But these really happen to you?
Guest:Yeah, that happened.
Marc:And there's no medication for this?
Guest:There is medication.
Guest:I'm on it now.
Guest:It was the it was the jumping through the window where I was like, I have to do this.
Marc:I mean, you ended up in the hospital.
Guest:Yeah, I ended up in the hospital.
Guest:I got stitches in my legs and my arms and and like the show, you know, in the essay in the book that's about that is about denial.
Guest:And it's about how I had this problem for many years.
Guest:I had.
Guest:you knew you had yeah i had the olympics thing that we just described i i had a dream where brad pitt was chasing me in the movie fight club and i sprinted out of my apartment and threw a chest of drawers in my wake like in an action film that and that happened in your apartment in real life in real life you threw the chest of drawers and i still didn't see a doctor because i would i would think like maybe i should see a doctor and then i thought maybe i'll eat dinner so you didn't want to be in dinner for years you didn't want to be in fight club
Guest:No.
Guest:I dreamed I was the Edward Norton character where my hand was being held down to pour acid on it.
Guest:For the lie, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, the lie.
Guest:And that's such a male nerd thing to know.
Guest:The lie.
Guest:The lie.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, I remember.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:No, but, you know, I had that for years, and I had the books on sleep.
Marc:But what about your girlfriends, I mean, over time?
Marc:Weren't they, like, get help?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, Jenny, who's my wife now, was like, you know, there's no choice.
Marc:You have to see a doctor.
Marc:For you or for their safety?
Guest:Yeah, I think if Jenny were here, she'd speak volumes to her fear.
Marc:What do you think would be her fears?
Marc:That you were going to hurt yourself again?
Guest:Hurt myself, hurt her, die, that kind of thing.
Marc:That's troubling because sleep's supposed to be a nice thing.
Guest:Oh, I know why it's troubling.
Marc:What kind of medicine do you have?
Marc:Klonopin.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But don't self-medicate if anyone's listening to this.
Marc:Go to a doctor.
Marc:So you take that at night?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's a good one.
Marc:I, uh, I'm not on anything cause I don't need drugs.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:Oh, clear as a bell.
Marc:Ask your peers.
Marc:Which one do I need?
Marc:I have anxiety too, you know, I'm sure you do.
Marc:But how's your anxiety manifest itself?
Marc:Cause it's my belief that when you're an anxiety ridden person that you get overwhelmed with it and it turns into something that looks like depression, but it's really just like literally giving up because you're so overwhelmed.
Guest:Oh, that seems about right.
Guest:Yeah, my therapist doesn't think I have depression because I'm too industrious to have depression.
Guest:I get stuff done.
Guest:But I get stuff done in kind of a manic way.
Guest:I work for hours and hours drinking coffee and then I just crap.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But to actually get to the point where you begin the work, is that a big fucking thing?
Marc:I get dread.
Marc:Do you have dread when you have to travel or anything like that?
Guest:I dread about this interview today.
Marc:You did?
Marc:What were you afraid of?
Guest:Well, we've been emailing for a year about this interview.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I think it's going well.
Guest:It is going well.
Guest:It's great.
Marc:Is there something you wanted to talk to me about?
Marc:Did we cover it?
Guest:I wrote down a couple bullet points, but I think we covered almost everything.
Marc:You wrote bullet points now?
Marc:What?
Marc:What do you have?
Marc:What kind of bullet points?
Marc:This is dumb.
Guest:Great interviews, Bamford.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:William Williams.
Marc:Yeah, we talked about that.
Marc:Stiller.
Marc:I think yours has been very good so far.
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:Ben Sia, David Cross, Doug Stanhope.
Marc:Cross, I need to talk to him longer.
Guest:You know what Jenny says?
Guest:Jenny loves a podcast, too.
Marc:Is your wife?
Guest:My wife.
Marc:Have I met her?
Guest:No, Richard Jenny.
Guest:The late Richard Jenny.
Guest:Richard Jenny on your Ouija board said, get me an interview with Marin.
Guest:Jenny says that you kiss everybody's ass who's your age or older, and you shit on everybody who's younger than you.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:She told me not to come today.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:She loves the podcast.
Guest:Told me not to come.
Guest:Everyone's got these ideas about how I behave.
Guest:Maybe that's true.
Guest:I don't know if that's true.
Guest:Oh, this is something funny from many years ago.
Guest:I don't really go to the comedy salon much anymore.
Marc:I don't either.
Marc:It's too hurtful.
Guest:It's too hurtful.
Guest:That's what it is.
Guest:I come away feeling bad about myself every time.
Marc:Just by sitting with her.
Marc:I mean, just by, you know, like having to deal with Esty, you know, where it's sort of like, you know, that she's like the queen of the world of show business.
Marc:And she never gives me one spot.
Marc:Like, I'm in town.
Marc:I'm like, yeah, I'm in New York.
Marc:I'll go to the cellar.
Marc:I'll hang out.
Marc:She's like, I'll give you a 1230 on Sunday.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I'm like, really?
Marc:I can't.
Marc:My self-esteem can't handle that.
Guest:Yeah, I have to say, like, Essie's been really good to me over the years.
Guest:And and so I would I'd be reluctant to say anything even remotely negative about her.
Guest:But I'm terrified of her and I'm terrified of all the comedians at the club.
Marc:Oh, I understand that.
Guest:I don't dislike any of them.
Guest:I don't dislike any of them.
Guest:I respect all of them.
Guest:I think Jim Norton's a great comic.
Guest:I don't want to be around him.
Marc:You don't want to be in the snake pit.
Marc:No.
Marc:There's a heavy amount of things I could see that would scare you.
Marc:I do an ONA sometimes.
Marc:I know you do it sometimes.
Marc:It terrifies me also.
Marc:I imagine it would.
Marc:Even me, to some degree, I'm like, what's going to happen in there?
Marc:What am I going to become part of?
Guest:Last time, last time I was in ONA, I didn't even talk.
Guest:I just watched some kind of stripper event happen for three hours.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:That's what that's what I mean.
Marc:It's like, is that going to happen?
Guest:And that was like the best case scenario.
Marc:Right.
Guest:That's like a good day on that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I just learned that, like, you know, there is part of me that I spent two hours talking to Patrice O'Neill the other day.
Guest:And Patrice O'Neill terrifies me.
Guest:He's a great comic.
Marc:No, he's a great comic and he's a deep dude, but I'm not sure he's right.
Marc:But, you know, when you listen to him, you're like, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, well, you know, you and I have this thing in common, which we talked about at the Comedy Cellar a long time ago, which is these Comedy Cellar comedians will, and when we speak of these people, these are people I like.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And are good comedians.
Marc:We're primarily talking about Bobby Collin, Nick DiPaolo, Jim Norton.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Keith Robinson.
Marc:Most of the tough crowd guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And which was a show that when I moved to New York, I desperately wanted to get on.
Guest:And then at a certain point realized, wait, no, I don't.
Guest:It's going to hurt me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is just going to be terrible.
Guest:And I did go on once.
Guest:It was terrible.
Guest:But I have this problem with those comedians where they'll say really mean stuff to me.
Guest:And everyone's laughing.
Guest:Everyone thinks it's great.
Guest:And then I say back to them something that I perceive as mean.
Guest:And then everybody goes, ooh, that's low, man.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That's their game.
Guest:And I'm like, I just did the same thing that you did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you actually said to me once that that's your problem with those guys is whenever you say something mean, somehow it's actually mean.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's not funny mean.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like it's supposed to be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's mean mean.
Marc:But see, the thing is, I thought that until yesterday.
Marc:And the truth of the matter is, it's like if a bunch of guys play poker together every week, and then you come in and play one day, you're going to lose all your money.
Marc:You know why?
Marc:Because they all know how each other plays.
Marc:And it's really more about that than the mean thing.
Guest:That's why I had to leave the comedy cellar, because there was no... I would make jokes at people's expense, the way you're supposed to.
Guest:And they wouldn't laugh.
Marc:And I was like, no, that's funny.
Marc:But that's how they get you twice.
Marc:You see what I mean?
Marc:They'll take a shot at you, and then everyone will laugh, and you take your shot, and they all go, nothing.
Marc:You got nothing, Birbiglia.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then you're hurt twice.
Marc:They hit you twice because they all play together.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:You have to shut up.
Marc:No, you just have to keep trying, and then eventually they'll figure out how to be comfortable with you.
Marc:It's like dealing with animals.
Marc:You just have to keep showing up and trying to pet them, and eventually they'll be nice to you.
Marc:Because I like to sit around with those guys.
Marc:I like them to beat up on me.
Guest:There's aspects of it that are fine.
Marc:They always make me feel like I'm too mean.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where it's just like, it's more of a tone thing because I think we might be the same in that.
Marc:Like it's when I did a roast when I did the Chevy chase roast.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm no good at that because I don't generally insult people unless I'm defensive.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Unless it's like a reaction or it's a preemptive take someone down assault.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like I'm protecting myself.
Marc:It's not fun loving.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's not, you know, it's always mean spirited because I'm trying to be mean.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:So I'm not good at that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, even when I do crowd work, it gets very horrible.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Well, no, everyone loves it, but I'll go too deep.
Marc:I mean, I'll, you know.
Guest:Huh.
Marc:Like, just at Union Hall the other night, some guy, like, I was talking about Asians and how I don't feel like they...
Marc:That I can communicate with them or they understand my charm or my neurotic sense of humor that I just don't know where they're at.
Marc:And some guy in the audience goes, I'm Asian.
Marc:I like you.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, OK, well, that's great.
Marc:I mean, maybe I'm picking up a little, you know, maybe maybe I'm better than I thought with them.
Marc:And he's like, but I like you because you're an asshole.
Marc:And I'm like, okay, well, I see that's something we clearly share because he wouldn't be saying that.
Marc:And I said, what kind of Asian are you?
Marc:He goes, Korean.
Marc:And I go, well, what do you do?
Marc:He goes, I'm unemployed right now.
Marc:And I said, well, that must make your father very upset because the Koreans are so like, you know.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Marc:He goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, if he wasn't dead for five years.
Marc:And he just sucked the fucking energy out of the room.
Marc:So I go, five years, really?
Marc:Shouldn't you be over it by now?
Oh, my God.
Guest:And it got a big laugh, but I don't know if it was the right kind of laugh.
Guest:Shouldn't you be over it by now?
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Isn't that funny?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, that's funny.
Guest:I mean, like, I'm trying to think what I, what I would do in that situation.
Guest:Cause I actually had, I do this other thing, which is I dig into the darkness and the sadness of the crowd.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So like I was, I was in a, a, a college in New Jersey once.
Guest:And I, um, you know, I have a joke where I say I went to a funeral recently and, um,
Guest:And they handed out Kleenex at the beginning of the funeral, which I thought was cocky.
Guest:You know, like, wait till you get a load of this funeral.
Guest:You're going to cry and cry.
Guest:She's so dead.
Guest:And it was like really notably silent.
Guest:And I go...
Guest:Was there like a death on campus or something?
Guest:And they were like, someone in the audience goes, someone just shot, like earlier this week, shot five people.
Guest:And I was like, really?
Guest:I was like, they were like, you didn't see that on the news?
Guest:And I was like, no.
Guest:And then I spent the next 20 minutes asking follow-up questions.
Guest:If I were wise as an entertainer, I would just get off that.
Guest:But instead I was like,
Guest:how did this happen?
Guest:Like, what was going on with the guy?
Guest:Like, I wanted to investigate.
Marc:And I bet you everyone was very happy they came to the comedy show.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:I turned it around that turn.
Marc:No, I'm sure you did.
Marc:So it went on for a while?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because you felt bad.
Marc:And then, you know, by doing that, you were able to, you know, be a person about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:i i mean i understand the the instinct there because there are moments like that where because i think when you do crowd work or you react like that we do want to take a shot and sometimes you know you're going to miss and and it can hit really wrong yeah so unless you're a complete asshole you're going to try to you know get back a little bit of yeah a little bit of turf like you know oh god i'm an idiot i'm sorry sure yeah well you're a pretty sensitive guy so what you got coming up
Guest:Well, I have like a month and a half off right now.
Guest:I'm working on the script for them.
Guest:We're doing a movie adaptation of Sleepwalk with me.
Marc:Who's writing it with you?
Guest:Seth?
Guest:Seth's working on it with me.
Guest:And my brother Joe is working on it with me.
Guest:And
Guest:ira glass is producing it uh and and so we're we're just trying to just get it made what's that what's the plan i talked to a lot of guys about this making movies making movies is complicated but we're hoping to shoot in january i mean that's kind of who's gonna play you joking
Guest:It's a shot at me.
Guest:Of course I'm playing myself.
Guest:You don't even realize you're being mean.
Guest:Of course I did.
Guest:Of course I did.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You said it with a perfectly straight face and there's no one else in the room.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It was so worth it to see you go, are you joking?
Guest:I have to deal with that all the time.
Guest:It's so sad when you have to have it written into your contract that you have to play yourself.
Guest:But that was hilarious.
Guest:Mike, would you really think I would assume that you would cast someone else as you?
Guest:You don't understand.
Guest:I get that question all the time.
Guest:People ask me that legitimately all the time.
Guest:Legitimately.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But now, what is the process now?
Marc:So you're writing a script, and how are you going to do it?
Guest:I've written a script.
Marc:I mean, we... Are you doing it as a movie or as a movie of a show?
Marc:As a movie, as a movie.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:You know, the same way that, like, Bronx Tale was a movie.
Guest:Oh, shit.
Guest:Of a one-man show.
Marc:That was... You just... No, I get it, but you're not shooting the one-man show.
Marc:No.
Marc:You're building a script that's based on the experience.
Marc:We already built it.
Marc:We've written it.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And we... You know, there's actors who are...
Guest:want to do it you've got people attached yeah there's yeah it's it's it's in process it's in motion oh it is hopefully yeah hopefully we're gonna shoot with you know then there's investors who are involved in like you know are about to be involved in like uh you know we're hopefully gonna shoot in january and you actually were really encouraging when i spoke to you a few months ago you were the one who because i was i was with a production company for a while who and it's a company that i respect a lot yeah but but that we didn't see quite eye to eye on exactly what this film
Guest:is and and i was talking to you about it and you said you know you just gotta do you gotta you gotta leave and just make the movie on your own because like that's what you do you're the kind of guy who just makes stuff on your own and i and that was one of the the impetuses for for me uh leaving and and going yeah i'm gonna go make this on my own because that yeah and it worked out well i mean you know you're in a better situation
Guest:Psychologically, I certainly am.
Marc:And I helped you?
Marc:Yeah, you helped me.
Marc:That's nice.
Marc:That's the weird thing.
Marc:Despite whatever attention I may have invented or created or caused you, it seems like over the last few years, since I've known you, when we have sat down and talked and you needed to talk to me, that it was good for both of us.
Guest:I think so, yeah.
Marc:Not unlike this time, and I want to thank you for coming by.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:This makes me want to hang out with you more.
Marc:Do you want to keep the mics on or do you want to just hang out in general?
Guest:Just in general.
Marc:All right, Mike.
Marc:Let's hang out more.
Marc:Okay, my friends, I think we did it.
Marc:I think everything's okay.
Marc:I think I opened my heart.
Marc:I think Mike and I are good.
Marc:I think that it was a great experiment in me overcoming resentment.
Marc:I know that I do that a lot.
Marc:I hope to have you some shows from England in the next week and also Patrice O'Neill coming up.
Marc:I appreciate you listening.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com and do what you need to do.
Marc:Get on my mailing list.
Marc:It's important.
Marc:I mail things.
Marc:Also, kick in a little scratch if you can, a little bread, a little green.
Marc:Because we are doing this for a living, for the most part.
Marc:I am anyways.
Marc:And Brendan and I are working hard.
Marc:So if you can, you know, donate, throw some money in, do a super premium donation, 250 bucks.
Marc:You get all the premium episodes and also all three of my CDs, a special WTF Best Of CD, two T-shirts, man, stickers, the whole gift pack for the $250 premium one-time donation.
Marc:And that brings me to the new premium episode that is up.
Marc:If you go to WTF Pod Shop, you can get the new episode, which I mentioned earlier in the show.
Marc:Michael Ian Black, Ryan Singer, Hannibal Buress, Shane Moss, Chris Fairbanks.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:WTF Pod Shop dot com.
Marc:Do that up.
Marc:Pick that up.
Marc:And if you're a premium special super donor for two fifty and anyone who donated more than that, you get it for free.
Marc:Love you.
Marc:Talk later.
Marc:Bye.
you