Episode 935 - Bo Burnham / David Sedaris
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck tuckians?
Marc:What the fuckericans?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:Those are getting pretty specific, so you know who I'm talking to.
Marc:Just those two groups specifically.
Marc:The first couple are broad, and then we're kind of zooming in a little bit.
Marc:But how are you?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Marc Maron.
Marc:This is my show.
Marc:Are you okay?
Marc:What's been going on?
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Oh, shit.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Oh, shit.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So did you talk to the guy?
Marc:Oh, no kidding.
Marc:Do you have to... What time are you going to go over there?
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Are you going to get any money for that?
Marc:I'm just trying random fragments.
Marc:If any of these stick, we're having a conversation.
Marc:If they don't, you're just eavesdropping on a strange one-sided conversation by me, which is not unusual.
Marc:But they'll be two-sided in a minute.
Marc:Today, I got a couple of guests...
Marc:Both of the guests on today's show have been on previous shows.
Marc:And the idea initially was to do what I do sometimes, which is have a short interview.
Marc:But these are two, they came out really good.
Marc:So we just doubled them up and got two kind of medium interviews.
Marc:But it's great checking in with these two guys.
Marc:David Sedaris is here today.
Marc:Bo Burnham is here today.
Marc:His movie was very...
Marc:Very good.
Marc:I liked it.
Marc:It's called Eighth Grade.
Marc:And it triggered a lot of things.
Marc:Triggered can be a good word.
Marc:Sometimes you're triggered and it's like, no.
Marc:And other times you're triggered and you're like, ouch, no.
Marc:But look, good show.
Marc:Smart guys excited about it.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:That's coming up.
Marc:I was with my father.
Marc:Should I tell you that?
Marc:Should I tell you this story?
Marc:I'm going to be honest with you.
Marc:I had not seen him in a while.
Marc:He came out to the house, him and his wife, Rosie, and we had a nice time.
Marc:I was nervous at first.
Marc:I felt a little anxiety and perhaps a little kind of residual anger from my childhood.
Marc:And then it just, when I saw him, something was different this time.
Marc:You know, a couple of things happened, but something was definitely different.
Marc:Well...
Marc:He's old.
Marc:He's going to be 80.
Marc:And at some point, I don't see him that much.
Marc:We talk a bit.
Marc:There's no real tension between us, but I don't see him.
Marc:And when you don't see your father when he's in this age range for a little while, you start to notice, like, I got older.
Marc:And then this time, I was like, holy fuck.
Marc:He's an old guy.
Marc:Almost 80 years old, my dad.
Marc:Why wouldn't he be?
Marc:I'm 54, right?
Marc:I got it right this time.
Marc:I'm 54.
Marc:And his wife is 10 years younger than him, and she's in very good shape.
Marc:But we decided we'd go on a little hike.
Marc:Not even a hike, a walk up a minor incline.
Marc:And my father's just gotten to this point where apparently...
Marc:He's very compulsive about his health in terms of being aware of what's healthy and what isn't and taking care of that.
Marc:But apparently he's not moving much.
Marc:He just sits around and worries about his health and makes her tense and miserable.
Marc:He takes a lot of vitamins because he's miserable, but he takes a lot of vitamins because he wants to be miserable for as long as possible.
Marc:And, you know, I respect that.
Marc:I understand that.
Marc:We went on this hike and he couldn't make it, you know, even just like five minutes into it.
Marc:And he's just he's old and it's it's not sad.
Marc:It's natural.
Marc:But but I noticed it.
Marc:The other thing I didn't really realize about my father, the deal is when you have the opportunity, and I do see it as sort of a nice thing, obviously, it's nice to check in with your parents if you can, if you have that option, if they're still alive, it's good to check in so you can assess the current distance between apple and tree.
Marc:And it's a little closer than I'd like,
Marc:But it is what it is.
Marc:But there was something I learned about my old man that I did not know is that, you know, he takes risks.
Marc:You know, we all take risks in our own way.
Marc:There's a thrill to risk taking.
Marc:You know, it's good if they're safer risks or if they, you know, at least there's a context to them that enables you to do it with some safety.
Marc:Obviously, nothing is 100 percent safe.
Marc:You know, I don't bungee jump.
Marc:I don't jump out of planes.
Marc:I don't climb the walls, rock face walls.
Marc:I do keep in good shape.
Marc:But I I take risks in other ways with my mind and whatever.
Marc:I just didn't see my father as sort of a risk taker.
Marc:I knew he was a bit irresponsible occasionally, which could seem like risk taking, but it's not intentional.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I learned something about my dad, man.
Marc:He pushes the fucking envelope.
Marc:My almost 80-year-old dad.
Marc:He'll fucking take it out there, man.
Marc:Here's what happened.
Marc:So I'm cooking breakfast for him and Rosie.
Marc:She brought out some nice green chili sauce from New Mexico, and I was going to make some eggs, slice up some avocado, and I'm cooking up the breakfast.
Marc:My dad and Rosie are sitting at the counter.
Marc:My dad's got his pills in front of him.
Marc:Doesn't take many prescription medicine, but as I said, a lot of vitamins.
Marc:So I'm cooking, and they're sitting there, and then all of a sudden I just hear my dad...
Marc:choking like for real like like you know that it's a horrible sound when somebody cannot fucking breathe because their goddamn larynx and throat is clogged and it was scary in that moment just like what the fuck is happening i turn around and he
Marc:had taken all his pills at the same time, just a handful of fucking pills, threw them in his mouth, tried to knock them back, didn't get them back, and was gasping for air like a man drowning on land.
Marc:And he was choking.
Marc:It was fucking horrifying.
Marc:And it's all happening very quickly.
Marc:My first thought was like, really here, this is going to happen.
Marc:I see you once a year, maybe, and you're going to die in my fucking kitchen.
Marc:Not the not the most sensitive thought.
Marc:But but, you know, let's be honest.
Marc:It's good to keep in check with those thoughts that happened initially, even though, you know, because of civilization and laws and and appropriateness, you know, you don't always say or act on them.
Marc:But it's nice to make note of them just so you you keep hold of who you are and you you're you you have a you have a point of reference.
Marc:So my next thought was like, I don't even know the Heimlich.
Marc:I kind of know it.
Marc:Maybe I should get in there because Rosie had gotten in there and was patting him on the back.
Marc:But it didn't look like it was going to be enough because he was really gasping for air.
Marc:I knew time was of the essence here.
Marc:Whole handful of fucking vitamins.
Marc:My dad's going to be the first guy to die because of vitamins that way.
Marc:But so he's joking.
Marc:And I'm about to do the Heimlich on him, and then he's just like, okay, okay, okay, I got it.
Marc:Okay, and he starts breathing normally, and I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Marc:What, you take all the goddamn vitamins at the same time?
Marc:What, do you want to die?
Marc:What, do you want to choke to death?
Marc:And Rosie just goes, he does this all the time.
Marc:All the time.
Marc:This is him.
Marc:This is his gamble.
Marc:This is his bungee jumping.
Marc:They're all going down.
Marc:jesus man we made it through that breakfast we made it through that breakfast barely barely so david sedaris is obviously a very funny uh brilliant writer and a very funny guy and i it was uh i i love talking to him through years back when he was here and it's uh it's lovely to have him stop by again and to want to stop by his uh
Marc:His most recent essay collection is called Calypso, and you can get that wherever you get books.
Marc:This is me and David Sedaris chatting here in the new garage.
Guest:how have you been uh i started a tour yeah a lecture tour uh-huh april 3rd yeah that went until the 24th of may uh-huh and then i had three days off and then i started my book tour so i've been in my book tour ever since for calypso i've been on tour since april 3rd and i had three days off but i spent them all in england doing uk and italian tours do you speak italian uk and italian uh
Guest:uh interviews do i speak italian yeah well you know what i would have said when i walked in here yeah i would have pointed to my chair and i said is this chair taken that's some of my best italian right there it's very effective it's very good i believed it all the way but so you've been out in the road doing the shtick what's the difference between the uh the lecture and the and the book
Guest:Lecture tour, you're in theaters and the audience has comfortable chairs and the lights go down.
Guest:It's a show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And a book tour, you know, a lot of times people are standing up and the sound system is bad.
Marc:In a bookstore.
Guest:And you can look at people, which I don't like looking at people.
Marc:Really?
Marc:You don't look?
Marc:There's sort of desperate need for connection and help?
Guest:No, I feel like they have that look on their face that they have to look like they're enjoying themselves.
Guest:They don't want to hurt your feelings.
Guest:So if you meet their eyes, they have that, you know, that.
Guest:But then you sign books longer on a book tour.
Guest:It's the supportive smile that bothers you?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I just feel bad for them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm not pressuring you to be entertained.
Marc:Thank you for the support.
Marc:Yeah, that's what it's like.
Marc:Yeah, I know that feeling because when I perform, I tend to, and I don't do it as much as I used to, but if I'm not doing as well as I'd like to be, I find myself looking intently at one member of the audience, and they start to do that weird yawn.
Marc:It's not a real yawn.
Marc:It's just from gasping for air because I've got a stranglehold on them with my energy.
Guest:Another difference is the length of time it takes to sign books.
Guest:Like in a theater, you might be three, four hours.
Guest:I know.
Marc:If you do the whole theater, I won't even do a meet and greet in the big theaters anymore because it's another 45 minutes to an hour, two hours.
Marc:But sitting there signing and connecting, it's exhausting, right?
Guest:I just see it as part of my job.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But on a book tour, it's like the other night I signed books for 10 hours.
Guest:Really?
Guest:At one place?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For 10 hours?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Into the morning?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got there to the bookstore at quarter to four in the afternoon, and I left at quarter to three in the morning.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And people just waited online?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So do you do pictures?
Marc:No.
Marc:Oh, see, because that's good.
Marc:Because there's a lot of pictures of me exhausted everywhere, standing with strangers looking tired.
Guest:Well, I realized not long ago that after I signed books for a couple hours, my eyes cross.
Guest:And so when people come up and say, oh, we had a picture taken last year, and I look at it, and my eyes are completely crossed.
Marc:So where are you spending most of your time when you're not running around?
Marc:In England still?
Marc:Yeah, in England, in West Sussex.
Marc:Now, I know a lot of this book is about the, you know, there's not so many miles to go before we sleep.
Marc:And about mortality and about, you know, the sort of feelings of aging.
Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:You know, to tell you the truth, I never sometimes when somebody writes your jacket flap.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That becomes your what's said about the book or maybe it's a press release or something.
Guest:But I never sat down thinking that.
Marc:No, but we are.
Marc:But we are.
Marc:I mean, I'm not I'm not judging it, but I mean, it's like how that's our point of view now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, I just sort of became that age.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where, you know, where people call you sir.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I fell down.
Guest:Someone was in an elevator.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was that situation.
Guest:You know when you're in a nice hotel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, after you.
Guest:No, after you.
Guest:After you.
Guest:After you.
Guest:And it's like, somebody just get on and off the fucking elevator.
Guest:It's just taking us forever.
Guest:And so...
Guest:It was this Asian woman after you, after you, after you.
Guest:And then finally I thought, fine.
Guest:And I walked and somebody had spilled something and I slipped.
Guest:I stepped out of the elevator and I fell, like I fell right on my back.
Guest:And someone said, don't move him.
Guest:And I just felt so old.
Guest:And did you get up?
Guest:Yeah, I got up just to prove them wrong, you know, just to prove I was, and God did it hurt.
Guest:Don't move them.
Guest:Don't move them.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:So, like, do you live in the country?
Guest:I live in the country.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:In the country.
Guest:But it's a perfect kind of country to me because England is kind of small, so there's really not that much.
Guest:It's not like when you drive through North Dakota.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's not even that big.
Guest:In the country, but three and a half miles away, there's a larger village.
Guest:You know, it's got a grocery store and it has a bank and it has a, someone has a sales fabric.
Marc:Those are the three stores?
Guest:They're like, there's an antique store.
Guest:They're like 12.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, guitar shop.
Marc:It's a little village.
Marc:But I like that there's a fabric store and a guitar shop in a little village.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Those are the businesses that remain.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you sit out in the country, because I have fantasies about... There was a while there when this administration took charge where I really felt this impending doom, which is upon us, but it hasn't manifested exactly like I thought it would, but I thought I would have to leave.
Marc:Like, I just felt like, you know, why live here anymore with this discomfort, even if I'm not feeling it immediately?
Marc:Do you feel relief over there?
Guest:Well, because we have Brexit over in England, I don't think Americans realize it, but every day in England, the headlines of all the newspapers are, what the fuck are we going to do about Brexit?
Guest:Nobody knows what to do about it, and nothing's really been done about it.
Guest:It's just everybody just wishing it didn't happen.
Guest:It's stalled.
Guest:Yeah, because it's incredibly complicated.
Guest:And the people who voted for it were led to believe that it was going to be easy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, when Kennedy announced that he's going to resign, meaning that Trump would get to point someone else to the Supreme Court, I thought...
Guest:I thought, okay, well, I'll just get my passport, because I can get my British passport tomorrow if I want it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But my, and this sounds clear to say, but, like, my heart is still in it here.
Guest:Yeah, I think that's it, yeah.
Guest:I couldn't stop caring about it here.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:As much as you want to say, like, okay, then fuck you, idiots, you know.
Guest:You know, it's still the, I'm still tied to.
Marc:Well, it's your home.
Marc:The United States, yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:I mean, and certainly the way you capture the United States, no matter how cynical, it still sort of humanizes it.
Marc:And even where you come from originally, like I go down south, and I'm always amazed at the sort of, you know, there's a graciousness and a humanity there.
Marc:There's people that are good people.
Marc:And, you know, and I think in our minds, it's very easy to draw lines, but there really...
Marc:Those lines aren't really real.
Guest:Well, I was in Texas a few weeks ago when somebody asked me, you know, what do you think about Texas?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because whenever you go, people like to know what you think about them.
Guest:What town?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was in, I think I was in Houston at the time.
Guest:But I talked about Odessa, Texas, where I had been a couple months earlier.
Guest:Odessa, Texas, in the middle of nowhere.
Guest:So I go to my hotel, and there are the Ten Commandments, 12 feet high in marble in front of my hotel.
Guest:In front of a hotel?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Was it a Christian-themed hotel?
No.
Guest:No, no, but there are the Ten Commandments there.
Guest:But then you go inside and it's the biggest queen you ever saw behind the front desk.
Guest:And then there's a trans person at the hair salon slash coffee place in the lobby.
Guest:So to me, that's Texas to me.
Guest:On the outside, it looks really unforgiving.
Guest:But then when you walk inside, it's like, you know, they'll accept a lot more than you thought they would.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And when you get down to individual people, they are their own little countries and living within this thing.
Marc:And so much of what's happening is going on with isolated people online and a few more than I'd like to admit, random whack jobs who are willing to go out into the world and be proud of it.
Marc:But I want to have hope.
Marc:How's your hope factor?
Yeah.
Guest:You know, it comes and goes.
Guest:I mean, what really killed me was the number of people who I met who didn't vote in the last election.
Guest:And I would say to them, I would say, did you vote?
Guest:And they said, no.
Guest:And I said, God, I would lie about that if I were you.
Guest:I would be so ashamed.
Guest:If I didn't vote, I'd be so ashamed I would lie.
Guest:I would never admit to not voting.
Guest:I mean, I've never not voted.
Guest:But if something happened and I didn't get a chance to vote,
Guest:I'd lie about it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, because you want to be looked at with that blame.
Marc:That's you.
Marc:It's people like you.
Marc:So when you're out there in the country, I mean, is it enough for you?
Marc:I mean, when you're not writing, what do you just sit on the porch?
Marc:What do you do?
Marc:What do I do?
Marc:Yeah, I mean, are you able to...
Guest:I live in the country.
Guest:I don't really know that.
Guest:Maybe I have one person who's like a friend.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he and I go out and pick up garbage together sometimes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But most days I just do it on my own.
Guest:You pick up garbage?
Guest:Yeah, like between four and eight hours a day.
Guest:Do you pick up garbage?
Guest:I pick up garbage.
Guest:On the streets or?
Guest:Where I live, it's really beautiful, but people throw everything out the car window.
Guest:Done with that newspaper, throw it out the window.
Guest:Done with that coffee cup, throw it out the window.
Guest:So I complained about it when I first moved there, and then I thought, okay, well, I'll just take care of it myself.
Guest:So I spend between four and eight hours a day on the side of the road.
Guest:Picking up trash.
Guest:And that's... Would you call that a pastime or hobby?
Guest:I guess it's a hobby.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I'm compelled to do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I've picked up tons and tons and tons.
Guest:I mean, I got invited to Buckingham Palace because I picked up so much trash.
Guest:Really?
Guest:That was the only reason...
Guest:It didn't have anything to do with writing.
Guest:I was invited to Buckingham Palace.
Guest:The queen has a lieutenant in every county.
Guest:And this lieutenant.
Marc:What does that mean?
Marc:A lieutenant?
Marc:Yeah, a lieutenant.
Guest:But I think they say lieutenant there.
Guest:And she saw me on the roads picking up trash.
Guest:And she saw me month after month.
Guest:And then she nominated me.
Guest:And so I was invited to Buckingham Palace.
Guest:Were you united?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:The queen has a day where she invites do-gooders.
Guest:And so I was just invited there as a do-gooder.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And who were you with?
Marc:Who were some of the other do-gooders?
Guest:They were with cancer research or they were with homeless people.
Guest:We were of different stripes.
Guest:And they weren't...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I didn't meet anybody.
Guest:I tried to strike up a few conversations.
Guest:Everyone was wearing new shoes, and there was a patch of soft grass, and people were going over there and taking their shoes and socks off.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And their feet were bleeding.
Guest:I mean, my feet were, because I was wearing new shoes, too.
Guest:What?
Guest:Because if that's not a dress-up occasion, what is?
Sure.
Guest:But you noticed that everyone else had done the same thing, that everyone had the new shoes?
Guest:You could look down and you saw people hobbling.
Guest:They were all wearing brand new shoes.
Guest:For the queen?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did you meet the queen then?
Guest:No, I stood about, I don't know, eight feet from her.
Guest:And they said, don't bring cameras and don't bring phones.
Guest:And so I didn't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And everyone else had a camera and a phone.
Guest:And then there were these guys who were dressed like the guys on the beef eater gin bottle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who would say, oh, love, put that away.
Guest:Today, we'll just enjoy ourselves without pictures.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the second their back was turned, people would raise their cameras back up and take pictures.
Guest:Were you mad about that?
Guest:Well, it was a rule.
Guest:They asked you not to do it.
Guest:So I thought, they asked you not to do it.
Guest:Don't do it.
Guest:And when you saw the queen, was there an effect?
Marc:Were you moved?
Guest:No, I didn't feel.
Guest:No, I wasn't moved in any way.
Guest:No.
Guest:She was tiny.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I bet she's 4'10".
Guest:Oh, she was probably taller.
Guest:Maybe, but I mean, if she was taller, it was like five feet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, she's really that small?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:I mean, I saw Barack Obama once.
Guest:I was invited to the White House.
Guest:He's a tall guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I saw him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was moved.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To see him.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I didn't feel anything seeing the queen.
Guest:Did you feel like the house was nice?
Yeah.
Guest:uh it's okay yeah i mean did you get a plaque or a piece of paper nope nothing no it was kind of great and no picture nope no picture you just have the story just have the story and it was kind of i don't know i perfect way to do it i don't uh but when he saw barack and would you talk to him right no no he was i was invited to talk to some speechwriters there and i was invited to lunch there
Guest:oh because they wanted uh you know how do we spice this up kind of thing just you know can you punch this up a little bit they had writing questions oh yeah so i said like what oh gosh about making things topical or about i mean they knew i wasn't a speech writer right uh just kind of about structuring a story and did you tell did you tell them that he should probably do some smaller venues first and test the stuff out
Guest:And he was with the Pakistani delegation.
Guest:And then I was on my way out, and there he was.
Guest:And he waved.
Guest:But I was with two other people, so I'm pretty sure he was waving at me.
Guest:But they're probably sure he was waving at them, too.
Marc:So you all got a good story.
Guest:But that was enough, too.
Guest:I mean, I was invited one other time because it was the anniversary of Greek Independence Day.
Uh-huh.
Guest:But I think that's the kind of thing where you'd go and he would pop his head into the room and maybe shake a few hands.
Guest:And I just feel sorry for people who have to do that, you know, because they have other things I'd rather be doing.
Guest:But if I had to do over again, I kicked myself for not going.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because my friend Andy, his daughter, I should have gone and brought her.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It would have meant the world to her.
Marc:oh yeah yeah no it's uh he's an he was an impressive guy i talked to him on here on this show i heard that yeah it was you know and you know i felt something but you know what you feel along with that something that you feel as an american because you know you're talking to the president i was talking to the president was that that weird shock of like he's just a guy
Marc:At a distance, there's something almost mythic about them, but it's both disappointing and highly exciting that they're just people.
Marc:Disappointing in a good way.
Guest:I didn't get the, gosh, but I think he'd have to be a special kind of person to recognize that because I don't know that I could have.
Marc:What, that he's just a guy?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, you don't because the idea of that job or the, you know, certainly, you know, once you see the kind of like recklessness that's going on today, this sort of tact that was necessary to balance that is it's a profound ability to sort of detach and remain grounded from.
Marc:in the highest of stakes.
Marc:And then when you see the guy just sitting there and we're talking about comedy or his wife or something, you're like, what is the magic?
Marc:Because it is a magic.
Marc:It is a certain disposition that enables somebody to do that.
Marc:But he's fundamentally just a guy.
Marc:And I guess disappointing was the wrong word.
Marc:I mean, I was happy about it.
Marc:But you sort of wonder what kind of constitution you have to have to do that, to be able to handle that.
Guest:I've talked to people who hung out with Bill Clinton and talked to him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But they gave the impression they were talked at more.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:I have friends like that.
Guest:Did you ever interview Roseanne?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:You did?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I kind of feel like with what happened to her?
Guest:When I was 15, I volunteered at a mental institution.
Guest:And when you're walking through the wards of a mental institution, you hear all kinds of people screaming things at the orderly and stuff.
Guest:But I think more than being a racist, the person doing the screaming is crazy.
Right.
Marc:no I agree like that's the number one thing that they are I agree and you know maybe with her like the number one thing that she is is just you know yeah crazy I think she's always been that way and I think that there's this sort of weird mixture of like I tend to feel that that like Kanye Roseanne and Trump are sort of in the same orbit there's a sort of aggressive narcissism at the core of it and when you have a platform
Marc:And you're aggressively narcissistic.
Marc:I mean, pathologically narcissistic, not narcissistic traits, but somebody whose brain doesn't have that ability to be aware in those moments that they can do profound cultural damage and good.
Marc:But I think that...
Marc:Yeah, I mean, when I had Roseanne on, I went out of my way to sort of manage the conversation in the area of comedy, which is, you know, what we talk about.
Marc:Like, I was not nervous, but I didn't want it to go into that other stuff.
Marc:You know, because I knew that that was, you know, it was erratic.
Marc:You know, it was not, you know, founded in, you know, some sort of agenda or consistency of ideas.
Marc:So I tried to just keep her...
Marc:in comedy, and she was very charming and funny and was good.
Marc:But you do, on some level, no matter how mentally unstable, she's aware of where she's coming from sometimes, and I think that was a sort of weird oversight.
Guest:I was minding my own business one night.
Guest:It was like midnight, and I was in Paris.
Guest:It was 2000.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the phone rang, and my boyfriend came and said, telephone, and he said, I think it's Roseanne.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was Roseanne, and she called me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she talked for an hour and a half, and she sang a couple times.
Guest:She broke into song.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was it a wrong number, or?
Guest:No, she was going to be on this TV show, and she got my phone number from the host of the show, and she was just lonely and couldn't sleep, and so she called me.
Guest:Was she a fan of yours?
Guest:I don't know that she'd read everything, but it was more like...
Guest:It wasn't so much a conversation.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, it was going to be being talked at.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I was kind of surprised by how candid she was.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And she would answer any question that I asked her.
Marc:And when she called, I mean, how'd she preface it?
Marc:Hi, Roseanne.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Damon.
Guest:Hotel with big cushions and big curtains.
Guest:I like big curtains.
Guest:It makes me feel rich.
Yeah.
Guest:And that was the beginning of it.
Guest:And you'd never met her before?
Guest:Never met her.
Guest:And what did you make of it while it was happening?
Guest:You know, I was aware.
Guest:I never watched her show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I was aware that, you know, I mean, I don't know that many people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was aware that, you know, I was flattered, I suppose, that she would call me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then after a while, I thought, well, gosh, who would do that?
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, if you don't really know somebody.
Marc:To get through to you at a hotel.
Marc:It wasn't... Or she was at a hotel.
Guest:She was at a hotel.
Guest:But, I mean, I don't know that...
Guest:It's like if my boyfriend goes out of town and I get lonely and I think of calling a friend, I even hesitate because I think they're going to say, God damn it.
Guest:Why did I ever give him this number?
Guest:Or I think that I'm going to be bothering them.
Guest:And so someone I don't know to call them at midnight, this seems...
Guest:That takes something.
Guest:I don't have.
Guest:It was like an hour at least?
Guest:An hour and a half.
Guest:An hour and a half.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did you get any laughs?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, she told me at one point that one time she had a next-door neighbor who knocked on her door and told her that from today forth there would be no dark.
Guest:He had just heard that announced on the radio.
Guest:He was crazy, and he tried to paint his house with melted butter.
Guest:She had some pretty good...
Guest:Pretty good stories, I thought.
Marc:Well, do you think that's why she called you?
Marc:She must have just read the book or an essay and thought, like, this guy gets it.
Marc:Maybe.
Guest:You have no idea.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:But again, I mean, maybe if you knew a lot of people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, if you knew a lot of, like, you know a lot of people.
Guest:So if somebody called you at midnight, you might just...
Marc:yeah you know you wouldn't think of it the same way i do no no i i never know like but now yet with the cell phone you can see who's calling you i don't know that number oh that guy maybe not now you know that kind of thing oh he might be in trouble she might be in trouble i'd better pick that up but uh you know generally i'm like you i don't like i have a lot of people's phone numbers but i don't i'm always hesitant to call them you know what i mean i'd rather just sit with my problems and stew well i guess nobody talks on the phone anymore do they
Marc:I talked on the phone briefly today.
Marc:Who'd you talk to?
Marc:I called my friend Jack, and I speak to my girlfriend on the phone in real time.
Marc:But generally, no, you don't do it.
Marc:But it's weird because now, even if you were averse to it to begin with, now, like, I'm sort of scared.
Marc:You know, like, I'm going to call, they're going to answer, then...
Marc:What's going to happen then?
Marc:You know, there's business to be, you know what I mean?
Marc:It's never about having a conversation.
Marc:It's always about like, what?
Marc:When?
Marc:Okay, I guess.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Are you going?
Marc:All right.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I'll text you later.
Marc:Right?
Marc:It's a preface to a text and then to an eventual event.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How's your dad?
Guest:He is 95.
Guest:And he had a birthday party and he fell down.
Guest:My sister went to get him for his birthday party.
Guest:Which sister?
Guest:Lisa.
Guest:And he was on the ground.
Guest:Oh, boy.
Guest:And he'd been on the ground for a while.
Guest:And he was disoriented.
Guest:And no one had ever seen him like that before.
Guest:So anyway, now he's in an assisted living place.
Guest:In Carolina?
Guest:Yeah, and he just hates old people.
Guest:He always did.
Guest:So apparently he's there, and he just calls the people there losers because they're sitting in a room watching TV, and then he goes to his room and watches TV.
Marc:But he's still got all his marbles?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, I mean, gee, I've got to hand it to him because...
Guest:You know, when you're 95, everything has to hurt.
Guest:And he never talks about it.
Marc:He doesn't talk about it.
Marc:No, never.
Marc:And who's the primary family member over there dealing with him?
Guest:My sister Lisa.
Marc:Lisa?
Marc:And what's up with your brother, the rooster?
Guest:He goes over there sometimes.
Guest:I mean, he's a, you know, he's a help, too.
Guest:I'm the one who lives, you know, far away, and so I don't, but it's one of the reasons I moved far away.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:I just thought, you know, when the time comes, I'm far away.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, but I think you talk about it in the most recent book about idealizing family time, you know, and having that diminished almost every time.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, I got this house on the coast, you know.
Guest:In South Carolina?
Guest:In North Carolina.
Guest:North Carolina.
Guest:And so, it's where my family used to vacation when we were kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's been kind of great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because we all get together there and we've been, you know, my dad comes when we're there and, you know, we just, yeah, Amy's there and everybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But we don't have a TV.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because my dad, you know, normally he just has a TV on and it's Fox News all the time.
Guest:Oh, he's that guy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:oh yeah he's that guy yeah yeah and so is he happy about what's happening uh well i haven't talked to him about it because i don't want to you know i don't want to be that yeah last discussion we have to be a fight yeah but he's delighted yeah you know everything's he didn't see any my friend i had a friend who uh lived in arizona and he had a obama bumper sticker on his car and he lived in phoenix yeah
Guest:And whenever he went to the grocery store, he'd come out, there'd be somebody standing next to his car saying, how's that going for you, shithead?
Guest:Really?
Guest:And Ted would say, great.
Guest:Actually, it's going great for me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, it'd be like if he said to my dad, how's this going for you?
Guest:He'd say, no complaints.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Perfectly happy.
Marc:It's my dad.
Marc:He can't.
Marc:like he'll watch fox news because he's gotten rid of all his you know only he only has basic cable but he he doesn't he i think he assumes it's the news that that there's no that generation unless they're sophisticated you know they just walk in and it looks like it's supposed to be the news it seems like it's the news and that's how he watches it no critical thinking or comparative you know ideas
Marc:This is what's being reported.
Guest:Well, my dad was always a financial Republican.
Guest:He just wanted to keep more of his money.
Guest:And then Fox News started.
Guest:They convinced him he wasn't conservative enough.
Guest:So then he started rethinking his position.
Guest:I remember North Carolina voted, this was, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, to make gay marriage unconstitutional.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that passed.
Guest:And then they voted again a couple years later to make it extra, extra, extra, extra, extra unconstitutional.
Guest:And he voted for that.
Guest:And it was weird because he told me about it.
Guest:He told me he voted for it.
Guest:And I said, you know, I would have just kept that to myself.
Guest:And if I asked you about it, I would have changed the subject.
Guest:Like I wouldn't have, why are you telling me this?
Marc:Do you think it had some sort of deeper implications about how he felt about you?
Guest:No, he was listening to conservative radio, and he said, you know, you got these girls in college, and they don't know what they want.
Guest:I said, are you talking about college lesbians?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I said, what does that have anything to do with gay marriage?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and he replied...
Guest:He was just confused by the whole.
Guest:He couldn't keep it straight in his mind.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:You know?
Marc:Right.
Marc:So he was in the early stages of brainwashing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He said it sends a wrong message.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Oh, I see.
Marc:He thought it was encouraging people that may be going through a phase to make some sort of commitment that they were probably not correct about.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Hmm.
Marc:How does he feel in general about your life?
Yeah.
Guest:uh you know i my dad is uh i did a show and in paris one year yeah at the embassy yeah in paris i was invited to a reading at the embassy so i i said to my dad do you want to come because it seemed like the kind of thing he'd like so i flew him over there and then i heard him saying after the reading i heard him say well david's a better reader than he is a writer
Guest:That's all you got?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But how do you, like, do you find any sort of call to arms about what's going on?
Marc:I mean, in terms of feeling that you're almost in your heart connected to America and to the South in a lot of ways, do you find that you are provoked to take action in any way?
Guest:I think the biggest action somebody can take, I mean, I was with this woman recently in Atlanta.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And she's in her 80s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she has spent her entire life fundraising for candidates and hosting benefits for them.
Yeah.
Guest:organizing people.
Guest:And she has two people who work for her and neither of them voted.
Marc:And that's what she does for her life.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And so that seems to me the call to arms to me is to get people to vote.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:I mean, even when Obama was on my show, he was like, I'm just here to get people, not even in a partisan way, engaged with the political process to think that it has some impact on their life and the life of the future.
Marc:I don't know what the... I think the disconnect is people just are bored or they weren't... They don't feel or see that it has any immediate impact on their life and they're distracted with all kinds of other bullshit.
Guest:Yeah, but...
Guest:Yeah, okay, everybody has other stuff going on.
Guest:Yeah, no, I'm not.
Guest:Like a presidential election seems to, you know, take precedent.
Guest:I mean, to me, I would think that it would.
Guest:So I don't know, but I don't know how, you know, I've done that at shows before.
Guest:I've said, oh, we have people in the lobby and you can register to vote.
Yeah.
Guest:It takes something more than that.
Guest:I don't know what public shaming would be.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Would be good.
Marc:Just get the voter rolls and walk around.
Marc:Shame.
Marc:Put marks on their doors.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I don't know how they do it.
Guest:In Australia, you have to vote.
Guest:I think it's a law.
Guest:And that would be interesting here to see what would...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because it wouldn't make people have to, it wouldn't mean they have to care or they have to put thought into it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It just means they have to push a button.
Marc:But in terms of civic duty in general, have you done jury duty and whatnot?
Guest:Yeah, I loved it.
Marc:You did?
Guest:Oh, God, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I prayed that I would get a case.
Guest:And I have to say, I was really struck by how seriously everybody took their duty.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Nobody was like, just let him off.
Guest:But it was a case where this guy stabbed another guy.
Guest:And if anyone ever needed to be stabbed, it was this guy who was stabbed.
Guest:And he lifted his shirt, and he'd been stabbed by two other people.
Guest:I mean, who gets stabbed?
Guest:But then I learned later that if you get hit by a car, chances are like 80% you're going to get hit by a car again.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And if you're stabbed, chances are high you're going to be stabbed again.
Guest:And it's because you have bad judgment.
Marc:Oh, it's not some mystical thing?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:It's just because you hang out with the wrong people or you don't pay attention to where you're going.
Guest:You don't look around you.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But everyone was very serious about it?
Guest:Very.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I don't think I was supposed to be doing this, but like this guy said...
Guest:his family had taken him out for Father's Day for barbecue at this restaurant.
Guest:And so he couldn't possibly have been there to stab this person.
Guest:So I went to the barbecue restaurant, and there was nobody in there that looked remotely like the guy who was on trial.
Guest:And so I just thought, what are the chances that he was really here with his family?
Guest:Yeah, right, yeah.
Guest:And he looked so unlike everyone else in that restaurant that it seemed like he could have produced a waiter or waitress who would have said, yeah, that guy was, I remember, because we'd never seen anyone like him in here before.
Marc:And he couldn't produce anybody.
Guest:No.
Guest:I remember Amy got jury duty one time.
Guest:She called and said, it's a rape case, and he's, I hope I get it, he's really cute.
Guest:LAUGHTER
Guest:She's got a new show, huh?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you like it?
Guest:Do you watch it?
Guest:I do like it and I do watch it.
Guest:It's weird when you watch somebody you know on television because you're seeing, I can't not see her in anything.
Guest:I cannot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, in a way, I'm like one of the only people who can't see it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's like somebody made a movie based on something I wrote.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I went to it, but I'm the only one in the world who can't see it because I'm sitting in the audience thinking, is that what my...
Guest:I think my refrigerator was on the other side of the room, wasn't it?
Guest:But that looks like my trailer.
Guest:But my cat wasn't orange.
Guest:Was my cat orange?
Guest:And then the next thing you know, the credits are rolling.
Marc:And you missed the whole movie.
Guest:Yeah, because I'm the only one in the world who can't see it.
Marc:And when you're sitting around and not picking up trash in England, do you like... Because whenever I picture somebody, you're an intelligent guy, you write beautiful things, you're funny, you're living this expat life as a writer abroad.
Marc:I think of... Do you listen to classical music and read books?
Yeah.
Guest:I, when I'm walking along, I listen to podcasts.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I listen to audio books.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And sometimes I listen to music.
Guest:But, I mean, I walk, when I'm at home, I walk between 18 and 22 miles a day.
Guest:A day?
Guest:18 miles a day?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that's what you do?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a lot of podcasts and a lot of audio books to listen to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Have you heard any books lately that you liked?
Guest:You had Ms.
Guest:Pat on your show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she was so entertaining.
Guest:And I pounced on her book.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I thought she did such a great job with that book.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And she did such a great job.
Guest:I really didn't understand...
Guest:why she wasn't nominated for like a Grammy or an Audi award.
Guest:God, that book was entertaining.
Guest:And I recommended it to so many people.
Marc:It's just such an amazingly dark story to elevate to humor.
Marc:I mean, it's like profound.
Marc:the you know the way she presents it and it's sort of horrible but it's so funny well when i heard her on your show yeah i thought at first oh gosh i you know those were a lot of the highlights yeah but a lot of the mundane details yeah it's fantastic well that's oh that's great to hear i'm sure she'd be thrilled to hear that now what about like uh greekness
Guest:Like, you know, do you, like... I go to Greece a lot.
Guest:You do?
Guest:I go for book tours, and I go for... Greeks are happy to embrace Greeks, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I wish, because my dad was Greek, but my mother wasn't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I wish I was Greekier.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, I'll settle for as Greek as I am.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just got back from Australia.
Guest:Everyone's Greek.
Marc:Really?
Guest:They're all there?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It just makes me so happy to meet a Greek.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, doesn't it?
Marc:Because they're what?
Marc:They're open and warm people?
Marc:They just have really long last names.
Guest:And that's enough half the time.
Guest:And the food is so good, right?
Guest:So clean, seafood, salads, those cheeses, right?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:But if you, do you ever go to San Francisco?
Guest:Do you go there very often?
Guest:Have you eaten at Kokari in San Francisco?
Guest:No.
Guest:I think it has to be the best Greek restaurant in the United States.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And it's not Nouvelle Greek food.
Guest:It's not fantastic.
Guest:It's just Greek food, but man, is it good.
Guest:And I went there twice last week.
Guest:I just... I love it.
Guest:It's just outstanding.
Guest:It puts every other Greek place to shame.
Guest:What do you get, fish?
Guest:I get fish.
Guest:Like, the last time I was there, I got this lamb, but I've gotten fish, and I've gotten chicken, and...
Guest:it's not one of those places where they come out with the flaming cheese and say, opa, you know, it's sophisticated.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But God, it's good.
Marc:I got to go.
Marc:Because they open, like I lived in Queens for years, you know, which is very Greek in Astoria.
Marc:And there was a place called Kiklides Greek Seafood in Astoria.
Marc:And it was just the best.
Marc:And they open one in New York City, like right downtown by where I stay usually.
Marc:I'll eat there two or three times just to get grilled octopus, you know, the greens, the weird overcooked greens.
Marc:Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Marc:The beets, they just do beets with raw garlic.
Marc:Like, and then they have that dessert, that galactopoodica.
Marc:Galactopoodica.
Marc:Galactopoodica.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That is the best.
Guest:Do we talk about this before?
Guest:Uh-uh.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Because when I was at Kokara the other day, the waitress came up and I was ordering that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she said, if it's not inappropriate, I once heard that referred to as galactic booty call.
Guest:Why?
Guest:I was at the fitness center that I go to in the country.
Guest:And I walked in and these two men were telling dirty jokes.
Guest:And the guy said, I am so sorry.
Guest:He said, we were here telling jokes.
Guest:I don't mean to offend.
Guest:And I can stop right now.
Guest:And I said, please, continue.
Guest:and it was just fascinating to me that that they had uh that they were apologizing right in advance for right you know yeah for just telling dirty jokes like because you showed up
Guest:Yeah, no, because I walked into the room.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I could see if a woman walked into the room, they would say, gosh, you caught me.
Marc:Yeah, right, right.
Guest:But if it's another guy, I'm just surprised by that.
Guest:Was it a good joke?
Guest:Yeah, it wasn't so good that I remember it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That dessert is so fucking good, isn't it?
Guest:Yeah, it's filo dough and custard.
Marc:yeah and custard but the custard is like made with i think semolina and it's like not just regular custard i mean it's like it's it's one of the best things i ever discovered or ever had in my life and i and i i they give it to you they used to give it to you just gratis at this restaurant caclides like it just came out you didn't order it it was part of the meal and when that happened i thought it was the best thing in the world you can't find it too many places
Guest:I went to dinner.
Guest:I was in New York at the start of my book tour.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we ordered dessert.
Guest:And after the dessert, the waiter came and put like a little bowl of madeleines on the table.
Guest:And he said, the story isn't over.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:oh man all right so what happens now where are you going what what how do we how do we it's so nice to see you i always like seeing you i had the postcards you sent me up on my bulletin board for a long time with musical uh i think they were mice i'm going to uh uh i mean i'm just in los angeles and then i go to san diego and then i go back to england and start my english book tour
Guest:and then do you sit down and you get do you are you are you writing are you running out of things to write about no i mean i have a list of things to write about yeah and things come up yeah and all the time things come up yeah yeah provoke the the writing well like somebody i didn't realize this someone just told me this the other night that pugs apparently pugs the dogs yeah their eyes come out a lot because they're half out anyway they pop out
Guest:Yeah, they pop out, and this woman, her dog, had an operation on its eye and it had a cone around its neck.
Guest:A pug.
Guest:And then it wouldn't shut off about the cone, so she took it off for some peace and quiet, and the pug scratched at its eye with its hind legs, and his eye popped out, and he ate it.
Guest:And then that led to all these stories about people digging their eyes out with spoons.
Guest:What?
Guest:And eating them.
Guest:What?
Guest:Yeah, I was in Albuquerque.
Guest:That's where I grew up.
Guest:I grew up in Albuquerque.
Guest:Well, I was in Albuquerque, and someone told me that pug story, and then I told it to somebody else.
Guest:Somebody said, well, there was a guy at the county jail here, and he dug his eyes out, both his eyes out with a teaspoon.
Guest:And he ate the first one, and then he couldn't find the second one.
Guest:And then somebody else told me, oh, we had a guy, and he thought there was a hidden camera beneath his eyes, so he took it out with a teaspoon.
Marc:This is like, it's either meth-related or mental illness, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But apparently there's this whole... Anyway...
Guest:I thought, gosh, that's something to write about just to talk about it.
Guest:And when you talk about it in front of an audience, people come up and they'll tell you stories and, you know, just get further into it.
Marc:Well, pugs are, I think they have a genetically problematic head.
Marc:I think, you know, because they can't breathe right either.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it's just a mess.
Guest:Well, then someone told me the actor Raul Julia, his eye popped out on a movie set one time.
Marc:But was it a glass eye?
Guest:No, it was a real eye.
Guest:Apparently, he talked about it on a talk show one time.
Guest:And he sneezed.
Guest:And I don't know if he held his nose when he sneezed or what, but his eye popped out.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And all of a sudden, he was looking at his cheek.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And he put it back in with his own hand.
Guest:And they said, oh, don't ever do that.
Guest:Let us do that.
Marc:Who?
Marc:The professionals?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Leave it to the professionals who put the eye back into the socket.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So this is the next book.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:We got a little preview?
Marc:Well, it's great seeing you.
Marc:You too.
Marc:And thank you for coming by.
Marc:Thanks for having me.
Marc:Calypso, the new book.
Marc:Get it wherever you get books.
Marc:It was lovely talking to David Sedaris again.
Marc:I do get a kick out of him.
Marc:He's very sweet and funny and dark man.
Marc:Speaking of beautiful movies about real people,
Marc:that might be good for some of you man babies, is this movie Eighth Grade that Bo Burnham made.
Marc:It's just a beautiful human movie, real story, handled nicely, scripted nicely, acted beautifully about Eighth Grade.
Marc:And it's interesting, there are some things that are very different about Eighth Grade now, but there are some things that are eternal and will be eternal in your heart.
Marc:And some of that, for some of you, is a lifelong commitment to comic book movies and defending them and getting upset about it.
Marc:But this movie runs a little deeper than that.
Marc:It definitely runs a little deeper than that.
Marc:So it was great to have Bo back.
Marc:I hadn't seen him in a while.
Marc:So this is me talking to Bo Burnham about his new movie, Eighth Grade, which is now playing in select theaters.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:I'm turning into a weird old man.
Marc:You?
Marc:I'm all right.
Marc:So, Bo, I don't think I've talked to you in public in years.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, the last time I talked to you in public was on the Green Room show.
Guest:Well, yeah, that's the truly public public.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then I took a pretty good shot at you.
Marc:Got a big laugh.
Marc:Yeah, it was fun.
Marc:But I think you won.
Marc:I mean, I think ultimately you transcended.
Guest:Well, yeah, it's a weird environment to be in.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Guest:A circle of comedians in private is a weird environment, let alone publicly performing surrounded by cameras and an audience.
Marc:And I was being so condescending, and you were the kid, the young guy.
Marc:We played our part.
Marc:The YouTube.
Marc:Yeah, we did.
Marc:But it was interesting because Gary Shandling was there.
Marc:It was Ray Romano, Gary Shandling, Judd Apatow.
Marc:You and me, right?
Marc:And Paul, yeah.
Marc:And Paul Provenza.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's sort of a sweet episode, actually.
Guest:Yeah, it's nice.
Guest:Because you got up and played.
Guest:Yeah, it's very beautiful, too, and Gary's there, and that's like, I got to have a little relationship with Gary after that, but it all sort of started from that.
Guest:really um yeah i would go over his house and just really yeah um and just just me and him and talk for a little bit and even this movie i just made he he read one of the first people to read the script no kidding so you just like you met him there and it was just you just you know he reached out or how'd that go yeah yeah just reached out after i might have ran into him at largo right um on one of judge shows and we just sort of connected there and uh
Guest:Yeah, I think we felt like partly kindred spirits a little bit, just sensitive people.
Guest:Yeah, so you'd go over there and just hang out?
Guest:Yeah, we'd just walk around and talk.
Guest:I never did the basketball games or anything.
Guest:Were they still going on at that point?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, I think so.
Marc:Are you a basketball player?
Guest:I want to be.
Guest:I have the silhouette of a basketball player.
Marc:You're supposed to be.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:You were designed to be by God.
Guest:Yeah, I actually played basketball until I grew, and then I stopped.
Marc:Well, that's sort of interesting.
Marc:So just about life stuff?
Marc:I mean, to have that kind of relationship with him, what was that like?
Guest:Yeah, it was just like... It's similar with... Well, not similar.
Guest:Gary is very special, but there's been a few people that have just been very... Someone that's older that speaks to you like that.
Marc:Oh, no, definitely.
Guest:I definitely relate to that.
Guest:Well, they speak to you like a...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It wasn't it wasn't like the Zen master, even though I was projecting all of that onto him.
Guest:Yeah, it was much more friendly and down to earth.
Guest:And I think that in itself was like the the most masterful thing to do.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Because I would then go on to work with people younger than me.
Guest:And it was people like Gary that taught me to be like the best thing you can do is to be treat them as your equal.
Guest:And even if they're not, which I certainly wasn't.
Marc:It's very important in life.
Marc:I mean, what I was responding to is like I've had many sort of older mentors throughout my life that kind of fill a void, whether it's a dad void or whatever the void is.
Marc:You're getting information that you never got before.
Marc:You're getting support that you didn't get before.
Marc:You're getting validation.
Marc:There's a lot of things that come with that.
Marc:It's a very exciting thing to be taken under somebody's wing, so to speak, in a way, or just to be listened to by someone you respect.
Guest:yeah and to feel and to feel like it's kind because i can and just and if it feels humble it's just mind-blowing you know because you can kind of bristle when it feels like hey kid like let me show you that you know you can kind of get like a little well that's not yeah that's all right you don't know nothing i'm gonna school you yeah which can be fun and he saw he saw a script of eighth grade early on
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I sent him a script early on because he was... How many years ago was that in the making?
Guest:Probably three years ago, yeah.
Guest:Did he give you notes?
Guest:No, he just was curious what I was working on.
Guest:I sent it to him and he just sent a nice email back saying, you know, he hopes it gets made and...
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Marc:So you weren't really asking for notes.
Guest:No, I mean, not really.
Guest:It was more of a casual thing, him just being curious.
Guest:He was always just a very curious person.
Guest:It was much more, yeah, just curious about things rather than in control of them.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:So that was three years.
Marc:I'm sure if you asked for input, he might have given you some, but you just wanted him to see it.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't feel like that's what even our relationship was.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Our relationship was more just like sharing things with each other.
Marc:That's nice.
Guest:Which was nice.
Marc:How long did that go on for?
Marc:Just, you know, probably a year, yeah.
Marc:And you go to the funeral and stuff?
Guest:I didn't, no.
Guest:I didn't either.
Marc:Did you go to that memorial?
Guest:No, the show?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, that was a lot.
Marc:That only happened in the show business.
Marc:You go to the memorial.
Marc:Oh, the stand-up show?
Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So you wrote this how long ago?
Guest:Probably 2014.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:2014.
Marc:So where were you at in your career then?
Marc:You were running around playing piano?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:I literally am doing that on stage.
Guest:I had just finished the special before the last special.
Guest:My first Netflix special was called What?
Guest:And I was not wanting to do it anymore.
Marc:Oh, right, and this was Life, was that the other one?
Guest:Make Happy was the recent one.
Guest:Make Happy, right, right, right.
Guest:I like that it seemed to be Life.
Guest:Life.
Guest:Because that's what we were going for.
Guest:That's sort of a subliminal message out there.
Guest:Very good.
Guest:But yeah, I had started to, I had my first panic attack of my life on stage.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Wait, so you're doing the shows, I mean, I'm not being condescending.
Marc:Oh, no, no, no.
Marc:You've got a good following, you're doing theater tours.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And mostly younger people come, I would imagine.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:College age, high school.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Mostly girls, women.
Marc:60, 40.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Probably, yeah.
Marc:They have boyfriends.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:That they wish were you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what precedes the panic attack?
Marc:Are things going too well?
Guest:No, I think it's been a lifelong thing that I never really had described or understood until that point.
Guest:Really?
Guest:But you never had one before?
Guest:Never had one, no.
Guest:I had like acute stage fright that I didn't think was that.
Guest:Never crescendoed into a panic attack.
Guest:But, you know, I was in and out of the hospital.
Guest:I was in high school thinking I had stomach pains.
Guest:And then it wasn't until, you know.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I was 23 where I was like, oh, that was being nervous.
Guest:I was shitting my brains out every day because I was nervous.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:Yeah, the last time I was on, when I was on this podcast, I was 19, I didn't know.
Guest:I hadn't said the word anxiety at that point.
Guest:I had no idea what I was struggling with.
Guest:So it wasn't until I was in Edinburgh, you know, in front of 800 people, and all of a sudden, halfway through the show, I got tunnel vision, and my breath got short, and I was like, what the fuck is happening?
Guest:Did you say that?
Guest:No, I got through it.
Guest:I powered through it.
Marc:You played through?
Guest:And then... You're going to play through.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And then, you know, over the course of...
Guest:This last tour had, you know, 10 on stage, had to power through all of them.
Marc:But not before you go on.
Marc:You didn't feel that you did.
Marc:You always have stage fright.
Marc:Oh, you did.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And now, like, well, that's interesting.
Marc:It's just out of nowhere.
Marc:It starts actually happening on stage.
Marc:And you just powered through all of them.
Marc:And then what?
Marc:Did you get seek help or just something you live with?
Guest:Uh, I tried to seek, I mean, part of the help was quitting, was stopping doing it.
Guest:Um, you know, I really haven't done it in two years.
Guest:I've, you know, do once a month at Largo.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe once every couple of months at Largo, I go up for 10 minutes.
Marc:So you kind of, you really sort of like, I'm pulling out for a while.
Guest:I needed to for my health, yeah.
Guest:How many dates a year were you doing?
Guest:I was doing, I did 100, but I did them in, you know, 50, in 60 days.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, like, what was really rough was this last tour.
Guest:It's, like, the second show in, I had a panic attack on stage in Providence in front of 3,500 people.
Guest:Next day, I had a panic attack in New York.
Guest:Then two days after that, a panic attack in the train to D.C.
Guest:for my next show.
Guest:And I had like 45 shows coming up after.
Guest:And that's when it felt like absolute oblivion.
Guest:That was like the darkest time of my life.
Marc:So you were full of dread?
Guest:Dread.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:That's the word.
Guest:It felt like an axe was... When I was on stage, it was like... And again, it's not that I couldn't enjoy myself on stage.
Guest:I would...
Guest:And I'd really enjoy it.
Guest:But there was always this thing hanging over my head that could drop at any moment.
Guest:Like at any moment, I can freak out.
Marc:Could you attach it to things?
Marc:Because I have problems with anxiety and dread.
Marc:Because if you're in something and you're doing it, you're like, this is great.
Marc:But then when you think of like, oh, but I got to do it again tomorrow.
Marc:Then that's when I start to, was that what was happening?
Marc:Or was it just kind of vague existential dread?
Guest:No, I'm sure it was grounded in some like awful sort of just young narcissistic need to be the greatest every night to everybody.
Guest:But also like the surreal thing that would be happening is that like, you know, between shows, I'm literally on my laptop Googling like how to deal with stage fright.
Guest:It's articles that are saying like...
Guest:Don't worry, like, no one really, like, if you're going up to present in front of your class, no one actually cares what you're presenting.
Guest:And I'm like, no, it doesn't apply to me.
Guest:Like, these people paid $40 and they've been waiting three months to see me.
Guest:It was actually reading about people like Adele and Barbara Streisand who struggle with that that, like, actually really, really helped me.
Guest:But, um...
Guest:Yeah, it was sort of on the road.
Guest:It's funny now in hindsight, but like, okay, like meditating before every show, like trying to learn this thing on its feet, which was, and I was like, do I take beta blockers?
Guest:But that feels like to introduce medication mid-tour felt like very terrifying to me.
Guest:Yeah, some people use those.
Marc:I mean, I tried them for anger once.
Marc:I guess it does something.
Marc:I don't know what it, I'm not exactly sure how they work, but you just chose to stop for a while.
Guest:Yeah, I just needed to stop.
Guest:And probably part of it was feeling like every show was life and death for me.
Guest:And I was proving my worth every time up there.
Guest:I don't want to ground it too much.
Guest:You're hard on yourself.
Guest:Because it's also, it is also just like chemical and neurological.
Guest:And like my sister has anxiety.
Guest:My mother has anxiety.
Guest:So there also was just something that's just I'm predisposed to it.
Marc:So you're telling me that the sort of kernel of creating the film or starting to think about the script came from you taking a break?
Guest:More just me wanting to write about my anxiety because I didn't take a break at that point because that was just the sort of lull before I started my next hour.
Guest:And then when I finished Make Happy, which was 2016, then I took the official break.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was trying to talk about my anxiety on stage.
Guest:I was trying to talk about feeling nervous through myself, through my own voice.
Guest:And I found that all it was doing was burrowing me deeper in myself and not getting me anywhere.
Marc:And then you thought like, I'm an eighth grade girl.
Guest:Yeah, kind of, kind of, really.
Guest:It was watching kids online talk about themselves, watching these girls make these videos trying to express themselves.
Guest:and being like, I feel like them.
Guest:And not only that, me doing my show on stage, you know, and I would talk about being nervous and feeling like performing was strange.
Guest:And I felt like my problems were so specific to a, at the time, 24 year old male comedian.
Guest:And then I would have 14 year old girls come up to me after the show and say, I feel exactly like you.
Guest:I feel like I have to perform all the time and everyone's looking at me.
Guest:And I go, what?
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:So like, if there was a bridge that I had to cross to write the movie, it was built by them
Marc:to me first you know i felt understood by them before i presumed to understand them well that's sort of a big revelation about you know what you put out into the world in general and why it resonates with your audience and what because like even when i saw your work way back in the day that you are expressing a sort of like aggravated discomfort in some things right yeah and
Marc:that you transcend through what you're doing up there.
Marc:It's empowering, and it's catchy, and it's entertaining.
Marc:But I think what you're talking about, it seems to be at the core of a lot of the stuff you've done.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:But I would have to filter it through things I was getting very tired of, which was being clever, overwriting, being cynical, being satirical.
Guest:Singing, yeah, certainly, melodically.
Guest:And I was interested in exploring it in a more granular, emotional way.
Marc:Detached way, like a different type of investment on your part.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You don't have to show up every night.
Guest:Yeah, I don't have to perform the movie.
Guest:And to say that these feelings are not unique to me.
Guest:I mean, the most powerful...
Guest:Experiences I have watching any art are when I feel most personally connected to films that I don't demographically align with.
Guest:Or like when I can see myself in someone that isn't me, that's really, really freeing to me.
Guest:Because it's very lonely to think, oh, I'm only feeling what I'm feeling because I'm me and my circumstance.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:To see.
Marc:Well, that's usually selfish.
Marc:Unless you're doing something incredibly uniquely peculiar, there's somebody else out there experiencing what you're experiencing.
Guest:And even me, who I felt was doing something incredibly uniquely peculiar, it wasn't unique to me.
Guest:It just wasn't.
Guest:Like, this pressure that I had felt to perform, to deliver for an audience, has been sort of... Is now social.
Guest:You know, now completely wide.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Now with people's access to putting themselves out there, like, everybody can have that same... An entertainer's fear.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:That's what I said.
Guest:Like, the shitty sort of, like...
Guest:things you get when you're a d-list comedic celebrity are now have been democratized for everybody like everyone gets to be a shitty d-list celebrity like it's funny because yeah the thing about the movie though like which i liked a lot i really liked the movie and i'm glad that i did because it's hard for me to talk to people if i don't like the movie that's cool i would have canceled it i told him i was like just ask him if he liked it and then like i just won't come in like i said that i said that because i know you're honest i was like
Guest:I just like, I don't need the plug if he doesn't like it.
Marc:I don't want to deal with Mark beating around the bush.
Guest:No, I don't want to burden you with that.
Guest:I wouldn't want to talk about something I didn't like.
Marc:Well, no, but it's weird because I do talk to people who have made a lot of movies that may have made one that they're out promoting that I might not love.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:Yeah, there's other stuff to talk about, yeah.
Marc:But what's interesting that you're saying to me is that what pulled you in were these YouTube videos.
Marc:And to me, I just saw the YouTube videos not as a device, but as just something that eighth graders deal with now, that that's part of their life, like the cell phone and the YouTube video and Instagram or Snapchat or whatever.
Marc:I can't remember which one was in the movie.
Marc:But the core of who they are emotionally is sort of timeless.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:So because you have this, you know, this cast of characters and he got great performances out of all the kids.
Marc:And, you know, like it's not, you know, I can see them all from my junior high.
Marc:I know all the characters are still the characters.
Marc:And I think that's that's genuine.
Marc:That's not it's not some trope of teen movies.
Marc:It's it's a trope of actual life.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Marc:And I thought the casting was great.
Marc:You really got a hell of a performance out of all your leads.
Marc:Oh, appreciate it.
Marc:Yeah, they're special kids.
Marc:They were.
Marc:So once you wrote the script, how much did you honor it?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, structurally pretty honored, but part of the thing was just trying to... I wanted to make a movie about kids that hopefully you feel nostalgia when you watch it, but it wasn't operating nostalgically.
Guest:I didn't want it to be like a memory.
Guest:I didn't want it to feel like...
Guest:the projection of my 8th grade experience.
Guest:I didn't give a shit about my 8th grade experience.
Guest:So I tried to defer to the kids and let the kids author as much as they could and let them feel like they were in power of the thing.
Marc:So was there a learning process for you on set?
Marc:Did you find that when you wrote the script and then having the experience of working with the actors that you made assumptions that might not have been true?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I gave the script to the lead, Elsie Fisher, the first time, and she read it and said, all of her DMs were on Facebook, and she read it and said, no one uses Facebook anymore, which I then put into the script of some other girl saying, and now it's all on Instagram, because she literally read the script and was like, is this about my aunt?
Guest:And I was like, oh God.
Guest:So, like, what was really nice, it was freeing for me, too, to have always felt like I was this, always the little young buck, and now I get to be the old out-of-touch guy, which is very fun, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I get to look back at them and go, what the fuck is happening?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I do think the generation gaps are shrinking, and it's much stranger, and I feel as close to someone 20 years older than me as I do someone six years younger than me, because this stuff, stuff is just changing so rapidly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Technology, mostly.
Guest:Yeah, and the sort of, like, generational signifiers are now happening every six months instead of every, you know, eight or ten years.
Guest:But back to when you asked about the videos, like, they definitely do end up being a device.
Guest:And I hope the movie, you know, is really carried by her actual life.
Guest:But the thing that just drew me was... That wasn't being negative.
Guest:No, no, yeah.
Guest:And I hope they function as a device.
Guest:It was like...
Guest:What drew me to the videos was like failing to articulate yourself, wanting to present your own narrative and not being able to do it correctly.
Guest:And that was just so compelling to me.
Guest:When I watched these videos, I would see kids.
Guest:It was vlogs that kids are making about their life.
Guest:You could see the references they had in their head for other speeches they'd heard in movies and culture.
Guest:You could see them trying to do it.
Guest:You could see them failing to live up to what they wanted to do.
Guest:You could see them trying to close that gap.
Guest:You could see them getting bored.
Guest:You could see them adjusting.
Guest:And I was watching this going like, if this were a performance, it would be incredible.
Guest:And it's so much more dynamic than the normal teen voiceover of, hey, so I'm going to teach you about how I went from being this to that.
Guest:It's literally about them learning how to think.
Guest:It's not just about them learning how to live.
Marc:And also this idea that they're putting something out in the world that is helpful, that will celebrate who they are, but also people will want to watch them.
Marc:It kind of fills in for that.
Marc:Because it's all her, what's the character's name?
Marc:Kayla.
Marc:Kayla's videos are heartbreaking, ultimately.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Just by virtue of the fact that no one's watching.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you don't really mention that too much.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you do see the number where the number is supposed to be.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it's just it's just it's going out into nowhere.
Marc:It's almost an internal dialogue.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But she's trying to to sort of be helpful and she's already out of her league.
Marc:I mean, I you know, in terms of the advice she's offering, what does she really know?
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:But what does anyone know about like being yourself and how to be confident?
Guest:You know, at the end of the day, it's like we're all kind of... Right.
Guest:It feels a little like... But yeah, I was interested about talking about people on the internet that weren't being seen.
Guest:As someone that went viral on the internet, it's the least interesting thing about being on the internet.
Guest:And it's the only thing we talk about.
Guest:We tend to only talk about the people that get attention.
Guest:But the majority of the internet is people expressing themselves to nobody...
Guest:into a black void it's almost like a weird form of prayer or something where they're hoping someone's listening but they don't know or not right and it never goes away like it's always out there exactly like the people that did three podcasts yeah yeah yeah exactly what's the thing is like what is it going to be like when all of our presidential candidates have like their entire childhood documented and all the bad jokes they made and you know we're going to have to do some sort of amnesty like
Guest:yeah well yeah accept people that people grow and they evolve and they shift and they change and they you know and that's sort of been the story of my life professionally and probably what the movie's trying to do maybe subconsciously for me is like i've had to forgive myself a lot yeah i've had to ask other people to forgive myself because i had my you know the first three years of me writing as a 16 17 18 19 20 year old yeah stuff i
Guest:Stuff I'm very embarrassed by, but, you know, I wouldn't change a second of it because, you know, I, you know, the butterfly effect, I wouldn't be here.
Guest:And I'm so grateful to be here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there's no erasing it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's the practical issue of like, yeah, well, there's nothing to be done.
Guest:So like at a certain point, it was me trying to go back and go like.
Guest:Yeah, it's okay.
Guest:It's all right.
Guest:Of course it is.
Guest:It's okay to grow and... We just did it in public.
Marc:But you couldn't avoid it.
Marc:I mean, it was the nature of when you became successful or when you became known.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What are you going to do?
Marc:I mean, I look at stuff from...
Marc:Fortunately for me, a lot of that stuff when I was younger was on Conan and you can't, there's not, you can't even see that shit anymore.
Marc:I mean, I have it, but it's like, I don't know why I have it up there.
Marc:There's some very embarrassing outfits and haircuts and approaches.
Guest:And I had stuff that was literally the equivalent of like your open mic set.
Guest:Literally the first time I ever tried stuff.
Marc:It's up there.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:but i thought the movie was really great because it you know uh emotionally you know someone like me who has you know some emotional uh um kind of hobbling that that i think that is still sort of suspended in the dynamics of of approval uh that we experienced in junior high that you know like it's all very it was very visceral it's just not that far under the surface for i imagine a lot of people because
Marc:Those dynamics repeat themselves in life, in work, in college, in high school.
Marc:It never really goes away.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What's established socially in that era.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that means a lot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That period in one's life.
Guest:No, but that's the hope.
Guest:And thank you.
Guest:Because some people will be like, man, I'm so glad I'm not that awkward anymore.
Guest:I'm like-
Guest:You are like or like it's just the moment when our self-awareness is turned on and we have to look around and be like, oh, my God, I've been this the whole fucking time.
Guest:We have to scramble to, you know, fix it.
Guest:How come no one said anything?
Guest:But like there's the what's so beautiful about that age to me is that like.
Guest:the impulse to be and to take inventory of what you're doing and fix it and then present it, it's all so transparent.
Guest:The mechanism is so transparent of what you're doing.
Guest:And all that it does over the course of your life... And you don't think it is.
Guest:Right, exactly.
Guest:And eventually it does... We do learn how to smooth out the edges and it looks like it's one functioning piece.
Guest:But I still believe now we're just slicker versions of 13-year-olds.
Guest:We've just figured out how to... Probably.
Guest:You know, process those things.
Guest:But I'm saying you can kind of maybe...
Guest:Look at behavior that you identify with now and hate in yourself now or maybe forgive yourself because you're like, oh, right.
Guest:I really am just a scared kid that wants love and attention and all those things.
Guest:I think that's true.
Guest:And a little brat maybe, too.
Guest:And maybe even the bad, annoying parts of myself are just little bratty, annoying parts of myself that were always there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also, I think, like, you know, as an adult watching this movie, like, there was part of me that thought, like, well, he's really picked his market, you know?
Marc:But, you know, it's like it is a movie.
Marc:It's one of the, you know, you could go with your kids, you know, and really, I imagine, have a hell of a conversation afterwards.
Guest:Yeah, and it's an R-rated movie called Eighth Grade, so if we picked a market, we picked a pretty bad one.
Guest:That was just a crazy thing that ended up happening.
Guest:I don't know how.
Guest:And also, eighth graders have no idea who I am.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're way below me.
Marc:So it's not made for eighth graders.
Guest:I hope they can come.
Marc:But you can go with your kids.
Marc:You can still bring your kid to an R-movie, can't you?
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Guest:And it was a bummer when the R rating came back for us.
Guest:I don't understand why that would.
Guest:It's, like, crazy.
Guest:Like, you can't say nudes.
Guest:Like, they just reference nude photos, and they can't do that.
Marc:It's really, it's like... Because of their age in the movie?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:It's just, it's, like, obvious.
Marc:But, I mean, I would encourage it, because, like, they, you know, for grown-ups to bring their younger 13-year-olds to the movie, because it's one of those weird things where you...
Marc:after seeing a movie like that you could have a conversation that might not have happened organically because of that weird discomfort that that even she has in the movie yeah with her father yeah yeah who you know turns out to be a pretty great guy i mean that was the other great thing about the movie with all the the situations that this girl finds herself in there's a there's a few where you take it right to the edge and you know you
Marc:As somebody who watches movies, you expect like, is this gonna get fucking, is this gonna get dark and fucked up now?
Marc:And I don't really, I'm not a happy ending kind of guy, but there was a scene there where I'm like, ugh.
Marc:But it didn't.
Guest:Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
Marc:Because I was just sort of like, yeah, the other thing could happen, and it does happen.
Marc:Yeah, it does.
Marc:A lot.
Marc:But there's a lot of those moments that take it right to the edge of something that could be life-altering for the negative.
Marc:And I think that fragility and vulnerability of people that age, like when you see it work out, like where she ends up at the end of the movie is very sweet.
Marc:The whole movie is very heartbreaking in a positive way.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah, I hope so.
Marc:Like you feel the weight of it.
Marc:Because of the vulnerability, because of that age, you just feel this sort of ache of that.
Marc:It's not like depressing, heartbreaking.
Marc:It's not grief.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But it definitely is heavy in the sense of like, oh, this poor girl.
Marc:But not sort of like, that's just tragic.
Marc:It's just high stakes for her.
Marc:But it's very sweet.
Marc:It ends up in a very sweet place.
Marc:But I think the point I'm trying to make is that given that bad things do happen to young people because they think they've got their shit together, it's an interesting movie to see that get right up to the edge of that.
Marc:But it doesn't happen.
Guest:Yeah, I think maybe part of it was trying to dignify the experiences of people of smaller events.
Guest:You know, that it doesn't need to go there to be significant.
Guest:That sometimes movies feel like about this age, in order for it to be dramatic and worthy of a movie, really dramatic shit has to happen to the kid.
Guest:But for me, it's like...
Guest:Every day feels like life and death to a kid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Very, very.
Guest:And that's what anxiety is.
Guest:Very small things feel incredibly significant.
Guest:So.
Marc:Well, now that you talk about it like that in relation to your own anxiety, it can definitely feel that sort of also what I felt as an anxiety person that there's heartache.
Marc:But there's also this sort of like, oh, God, it's like every day is kind of like, are you going to get through it in your mind?
Marc:You're like just entering the hallway.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, God forbid you get something on your pants.
Guest:Yeah, right, right, right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Like anything... Like it could just be a disaster for the fucking whole day.
Marc:Yeah, it's like... And then you take weeks to get over it, and then people make fun of you for it.
Marc:It was very high stakes.
Guest:Yeah, and that's what it...
Guest:And I think that is what life is for most people.
Guest:I believe that people are so non-confrontational in real life.
Guest:I believe that tiny things register so hugely for most people.
Guest:Aren't like most of us, like we raise our voice at someone in the line at a grocery store and then our heart is pounding for an hour afterwards?
Guest:Have you ever seen people yell in public?
Guest:It's insane.
Guest:You get like an out-of-body experience.
Marc:I've done it.
Marc:Yeah, I've done it.
Marc:Where you just feel like, is this happening?
Guest:it's coming out of my mouth yeah it's crazy like and so and i think movies tend to exist in a really higher form of expressed outward drama that i kind of wanted we wanted to play against we wanted to go like can we have a movie that hopefully people leave going like oh that was intense and then it's like i guess she just went to a pool party and went to the mall and nothing really happened you know but everything happened to her
Marc:No, I think you feel that.
Marc:I think that it wasn't hard for me at my age of 54.
Marc:Am I 54?
Marc:I'm 54 now, yeah.
Marc:You get right back into it.
Marc:The kids were so good at being who they are.
Marc:in the acting that, you know, you feel it, you know, you definitely feel it.
Marc:It's all very sweet and very, you know, heartbreaking and very vulnerable and also sort of, it's provocative to realize that there are a lot of things that are different about growing up now, but there's something fundamentally the same about what you go through in this country with that age anyways, you know.
Guest:Yeah, and filming this, like, you know, we filmed it last summer or whatever, and it really was like, I don't know if there's going to be a country when you're a sophomore in high school.
Guest:I don't, you know, it all felt so, because I was so certain when I wrote this script, like, oh, I'm making this for Hillary's America.
Guest:We're going to get to have, like, sort of, like, a cool, subtle conversation maybe about the culture once we're all kind of happy about the, you know, whatever just happened.
Guest:And instead, it's like...
Guest:him being there and i remember walking into i hate to rear the conversation of this but yeah walking into a classroom scouting that school schools and seeing like the printed the nothing seeing the computer printed out picture of his face on like the strip of presidents above a chalkboard or a whiteboard is a it's very very surreal you mean that that it felt institutionalized in a way that the inauguration didn't feel to
Guest:To see it in a sixth grade classroom was very disturbing.
Guest:And it was like, and the kids feel it.
Guest:The kids know that.
Guest:The kids know something is happening.
Guest:So there is certainly an added level of just urgency to, I think, being that age now.
Guest:And there really are, you know, shooting drills.
Guest:There really are gun drills, you know.
Guest:It's a weird time.
Guest:It's a weird time.
Guest:I don't know what it's going to be like for them when they're...
Marc:Well, you know, like hopefully they're there.
Marc:That's the scariest sort of like thing that hangs over it is like, are they engaged really in anything other than, you know, this sort of compulsive, selfish pursuits?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, to me, that's the tricky thing because that's also something that grownups, that's something that's sort of ageless now.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And actually worse.
Guest:To me, the worst people on social media are 30-year-olds by a factor of 10.
Guest:No one is more nauseating than my friends around my age and a little older.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They are the ones that, like, think they're being self-aware and ironic and are so transparently disgusting.
Guest:And talking to the kids, the kids actually get it a little more.
Guest:And, like, it's so in their bones that it doesn't mean as much to them.
Guest:And they may be able to have, like, a slightly healthier relationship.
Guest:Whereas we see it as, like...
Guest:this thing in our lives.
Guest:That we've had to adapt to.
Guest:Yeah, and it's like this tool.
Marc:We're going to use it.
Marc:But they're just second nature.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they do have a really incredible ability to emotionally multitask.
Guest:And I think they have a view of the world
Guest:that no one's ever had.
Marc:A sense of like... That's true, and I wonder where that goes.
Marc:You know, I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, I'm not saying it's necessarily positive.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know yet, you know.
Marc:And also, like, that was very clever that the phone breaks.
Marc:Like, you know, that she breaks her phone.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
Guest:Like, that was... And we got in trouble for Apple.
Guest:Apple didn't want to get... was almost very upset about that because we showed that the phone broke.
Guest:And I'm like, no, no, I'm going to have her hum it across the room.
Guest:Like, she'll throw it very, very hard.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But we were... It was a choice that we could get...
Guest:we could get the laptops for free to use them or not.
Guest:So we had to use the cruise laptops and phones because Apple wouldn't give it to us because we showed that their phones get cracked.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Everyone knows their phones get cracked.
Guest:Yeah, of course, of course.
Marc:Well, look, Bo, it was great seeing you, and you did a great job.
Marc:It was really a touching movie, and I loved it, and I didn't know what I was getting into, and I thought it was great, real human.
Marc:Well, it means a lot, and it's good to talk to you in public again.
Marc:Oh, thanks.
Marc:Appreciate it.
Marc:Bo Burnham did a great job with that movie.
Marc:It was great talking to him.
Marc:Go see Eighth Grade.
Marc:I recommend it.
Marc:It'll choke you up and elevate you.
Marc:Dig it.
Marc:I put new strings on my guitar.
Marc:And I polished the fretboard.
Marc:God, it was all dried out and sad.
Marc:So I'll play some tubas music for you.
Marc:Here.
Here.
Guest:Boomer live.