Episode 925 - Billy Bob Thornton

Episode 925 • Released June 17, 2018 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:Alright, let's do this.

00:00:10Marc:How are you?

00:00:11Marc:What the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fucksters?

00:00:14Marc:What's happening?

00:00:15Marc:I'm Mark Maron.

00:00:16Marc:This is my podcast WTF.

00:00:18Marc:Welcome to it.

00:00:19Marc:How's it going?

00:00:20Marc:What's going on?

00:00:22Marc:Are you sick?

00:00:23Marc:I got a thing.

00:00:24Marc:I got a little thing.

00:00:25Marc:Can you hear it?

00:00:25Marc:Can you hear the thing in my voice, in my throat, in my head?

00:00:29Marc:I bash my head into a door too.

00:00:30Marc:So I got a thing and I bash my head into a door.

00:00:34Marc:That's the problem with staying at hotels occasionally is that you got to really kind of get the map of the room in your head.

00:00:41Marc:It was a relatively complicated room.

00:00:43Marc:There was a front part and a middle part and there were too many doors and there was a door to the bathroom.

00:00:46Marc:And I don't know.

00:00:48Marc:I'm an older man.

00:00:49Marc:I pee at night.

00:00:51Marc:And I just walked right into the door in the worst way you can walk into a door.

00:00:56Marc:Like it was open in just the right way to where it was.

00:01:00Marc:I walked either side of me when I was on either side of the door.

00:01:04Marc:And I just kind of walked right into it with my face, side of my head, hitting the door and almost went out.

00:01:13Marc:I almost went down.

00:01:15Marc:So I got a bump on my head, hurt my jaw, couldn't understand what was up, and I got a cold.

00:01:21Marc:That's how I am today.

00:01:23Marc:I'm happy to be back home.

00:01:24Marc:I'm happy to be in the garage.

00:01:25Marc:I'm happy to be doing the work.

00:01:27Marc:I'm unhappy on some level to be an American right now as we slowly drift, but recently more rapidly into authoritarianism, and I'm not saying this with any...

00:01:41Marc:Hint of irony.

00:01:42Marc:I don't want to be a downer, but we're now that country.

00:01:46Marc:We're the country that will take your kids as punishment or as some sort of warning.

00:01:56Marc:That's right.

00:01:57Marc:We'll take your kids for you being desperate and needing somewhere to go, for you needing refuge.

00:02:05Marc:Don't come here because we'll torture your kids.

00:02:10Marc:We'll put them in a camp and just the fact that they're there and away from you will cause lasting psychological harm that will probably derail their lives on some level.

00:02:24Marc:So we will just the act of it.

00:02:27Marc:We will torture your children if you come here in desperation.

00:02:33Marc:That's who America is now.

00:02:37Marc:Sure, a lot of us don't sign off on that, and there's plenty of people that claim to be intelligent people that say, hey, man, you break the law.

00:02:44Marc:We're torturing children.

00:02:49Marc:children yeah but the law is it we're torturing kids but they broke the law their parents shouldn't they're we're torturing children and it's it's hard to know what to do you know you you speak up because you don't want to be you don't want to be part of that poem when they came for the immigrant children

00:03:17Marc:I did not speak out because I was not an immigrant child.

00:03:26Marc:That's the country we're living in now.

00:03:29Marc:We torture kids as punishment for their parents' transgression and as a warning to other parents that America is a country that tortures children.

00:03:42Marc:I know it's a heavy way to open, but it's hard to know what to do.

00:03:46Marc:It's hard to know what to do when your country becomes more authoritarian.

00:03:53Marc:It's hard to know when they cross a line and there's no coming back.

00:03:57Marc:It's happened to other countries.

00:03:58Marc:I guess it was only a matter of time before it happened here with a complicit Congress and a minority rule and a president that has no sense of humility or no sense of humanity.

00:04:12Marc:I'm not saying that he enjoys torturing children, but...

00:04:15Marc:He sure will use it as political leverage shamelessly, which I guess would be enjoyment.

00:04:24Marc:Excitedly enjoyment.

00:04:27Marc:So we're a country that tortures children now as a warning.

00:04:30Marc:That you're not welcome here because we'll torture your children.

00:04:35Marc:So I've talked to Brendan about it and he gave some money to a thing called the Family Reunification and Bond Fund.

00:04:43Marc:It provides legal representation and bond funds to get parents out of immigration detention.

00:04:48Marc:and back with their children.

00:04:50Marc:It was set up by a group called RACES, that's R-A-I-C-E-S, Texas, Refugee and Immigrant Center for Education and Legal Services.

00:05:00Marc:It's pronounced like RACES.

00:05:03Marc:The website is r-a-i-c-e-s-texas.org.

00:05:09Marc:I will be contributing today.

00:05:13Marc:and uh you know for you people that have justified this somehow in your mind because it feels right in your mind that you know hey don't break the law just follow it through you know and this isn't virtue signaling this is decency you know just you know follow it through we're going to take your children and deny them touch you

00:05:43Marc:and a sense of safety because you were desperate and we don't tolerate that anymore.

00:05:55Marc:We're going to take away touch.

00:05:59Marc:We're going to take away you and any sense of safety from your children.

00:06:06Marc:torture them and that's that's okay because you broke the law so if you are able to you know

00:06:14Marc:contain that in your mind is a reasonable thing to do and and something you're proud of as an American then I guess I'm not talking to you and if this type of talk aggravates you or you accuse me of being a virtue signal or if you find precedence in history even American history even in any history that you know this is somehow not that bad those precedents should be used as an example of evil shit not as an aspiration

00:06:43Marc:You know what, I'm going to go with 100% of the time.

00:06:46Marc:Torturing children as punishment or as a warning is demonic evil shit.

00:07:01Marc:The organization, again, is RacistTexas.org, R-A-I-C-E-S-Texas.org.

00:07:10Marc:And that basically is to provide legal representation and bond funds to get parents out of immigration detention and back with their children who are being tortured by the United States government at the behest of a utterly insensitive and callous president and the minority of people that support him.

00:07:30Marc:in the country, and a craven Congress that will do nothing.

00:07:35Marc:So, back from New York.

00:07:38Marc:Did I mention today is Billy Bob Thornton?

00:07:41Marc:Today he is here.

00:07:43Marc:Billy Bob Thornton.

00:07:44Marc:The mystery.

00:07:46Marc:The man.

00:07:48Marc:He's a very talented dude.

00:07:50Marc:Great actor.

00:07:51Marc:I watched his new series, Goliath.

00:07:53Marc:He's wonderful in it.

00:07:54Marc:It was a little intimidating meeting him, but I think we had a nice chat.

00:07:59Marc:And as I said, I'm back from New York.

00:08:01Marc:I was on Colbert.

00:08:02Marc:That was a nice, nice.

00:08:04Marc:That was a fun appearance for for me and Stephen.

00:08:08Marc:I gave him a break.

00:08:09Marc:I gave old Stephen Colbert a break.

00:08:12Marc:You know, I went on there.

00:08:12Marc:We had a little back and forth.

00:08:14Marc:And I just said, I got it from here, Stephen.

00:08:16Marc:You hang out.

00:08:17Marc:Just watch me do this bit.

00:08:18Marc:And he did, and it was good.

00:08:20Marc:It wasn't a bad thing.

00:08:21Marc:It was fine to have Stephen Colbert as a straight man and as an audience.

00:08:25Marc:I felt very good about the performance.

00:08:28Marc:I liked the bit.

00:08:28Marc:I liked my suit.

00:08:30Marc:I felt like I didn't watch it and go like, oh, man, what's with those socks?

00:08:35Marc:I'm not going to watch it again because I'm sure I'll find something.

00:08:38Marc:But it was fun.

00:08:39Marc:It was good to see Stephen.

00:08:41Marc:There's a fun picture of him and I that I put up on my Instagram, Mark Maron.

00:08:46Marc:uh backstage it's on one of the publicists took and uh yeah i i and then after that i went to dinner with sam lipsite and his wife caridwin morris and uh you know we did that kind of stuff me and sarah the painter did stuff like that did no comedy in new york and it was uh it was fine seeing friends is important it's uh it's important can't wait for lipsite's new book

00:09:14Marc:Can't fucking wait.

00:09:15Marc:You know, the things like movies and stuff like that.

00:09:17Marc:Can't wait.

00:09:18Marc:And his wife's doing interesting work, too.

00:09:20Marc:Corrid, who is a regular listener to this show, is coaching couples, pre-childbirth women, but couples, I think, too, just on how to deal with the pain of the thing coming out of you.

00:09:34Marc:It's an interesting niche.

00:09:38Marc:It's going to hurt, man.

00:09:39Marc:It's fun.

00:09:40Marc:One of the good things about dating an artist is that you meet other artists that you respect and occasionally get to go to their studio.

00:09:50Marc:I went to Fred Tomaselli's studio with Sarah.

00:09:54Marc:He's a friend of Sarah's who I met through her.

00:09:56Marc:Great guy.

00:09:57Marc:I'm a big fan of his paintings.

00:09:59Marc:And it was it was kind of cool.

00:10:01Marc:It's kind of cool.

00:10:03Marc:It's in, you know, he's in this building that, you know, that's kind of a famous weird old building.

00:10:07Marc:Allen Ginsberg used to live in it.

00:10:09Marc:And I don't know.

00:10:11Marc:It's just it's it's a New York that that is not that it's not really there anymore.

00:10:16Marc:But the ghosts of it are, and some people inhabit the spaces where the ghosts were and continue the legacy of what New York used to be.

00:10:27Marc:And it's sort of refreshing to see it.

00:10:30Marc:And his art was great.

00:10:31Marc:It's always interesting to see how people work.

00:10:33Marc:He does very interesting stuff with resin.

00:10:36Marc:And sometimes pot leaves and sometimes pills, sometimes pieces of newspaper.

00:10:45Marc:It was cool, man.

00:10:46Marc:It's cool to see other people's artwork.

00:10:49Marc:And I also went out to the Brooklyn Art Museum and I saw the Bowie exhibit that everyone's been talking about.

00:10:57Marc:And...

00:10:59Marc:You know, you hear about things.

00:11:01Marc:You hear like, this is amazing.

00:11:02Marc:That's amazing.

00:11:02Marc:You got to see it.

00:11:03Marc:And you're like, all right, all right.

00:11:04Marc:But it's basically a complete overview of Bowie's work.

00:11:08Marc:You know, that includes everything about him.

00:11:10Marc:You know, pictures, lyrics, outfits, costumes, videos, paintings.

00:11:15Marc:You know, all of it.

00:11:16Marc:Historical mementos.

00:11:19Marc:napkins with lipstick on them i mean everything and you walk into this thing and you put on a headset that kind of changes with each room when you interact with different rooms and i don't know what it was folks i i think it was you know something bigger than i anticipated

00:11:43Marc:Because, you know, I got in there and, you know, you go through what Bowie was watching when he was a kid and all these exhibits and everything.

00:11:50Marc:And then there's this one case where they just have a big, you know, video projection of him doing Starman on the top of the Pops or whatever it was, right, when he became Ziggy.

00:12:01Marc:And I just started crying.

00:12:09Marc:And I just let it happen.

00:12:13Marc:I'm not sure what I was feeling.

00:12:16Marc:I'm not sure what I was grieving.

00:12:17Marc:I don't know if it was joy or grief, some mixture of the two.

00:12:20Marc:I don't think that when Bowie died that I fully realized.

00:12:26Marc:I'm sure I did realize how important he was and his music was and what he represented was to my young life, to my middle life, to my older life.

00:12:37Marc:And maybe the loss was coming over me.

00:12:41Marc:And maybe it was just elation and appreciation, a joy that was coming over me, coming out of my eyes.

00:12:51Marc:Or maybe it was a grieving for my own youth, or maybe it was a grieving for what seems to be diminishing in culture.

00:13:01Marc:a type of artistic freedom that had occasionally a place in the mainstream, a sort of a provocative, confrontational artistic freedom that bent the understanding of gender and music, art.

00:13:21Marc:That Bowie as a person, how he intentionally inhabited his body in different ways and made himself...

00:13:30Marc:look different and dress different and move different and sound different it's overwhelming and spectacular to see it all laid out but for some reason every time i got in front of a video or an interview just started crying and there was this big last room where they had just a huge screen of concert footage

00:14:00Marc:Of him as Ziggy and then him later singing Heroes.

00:14:04Marc:Cutting back to another performance of Heroes.

00:14:06Marc:Thin White Duke Bowie.

00:14:07Marc:All different.

00:14:09Marc:Just weeping.

00:14:12Marc:I let it happen.

00:14:14Marc:It needed to happen.

00:14:15Marc:It was spectacular.

00:14:17Marc:The exhibition was spectacular and whatever I was feeling, whatever I was moving through was helpful.

00:14:25Marc:What was I grieving?

00:14:26Marc:What are we grieving?

00:14:28Marc:So much now.

00:14:31Marc:I hope the voting works.

00:14:35Marc:I really do.

00:14:39Marc:Billy Bob Thornton's been around a long time.

00:14:41Marc:He's done a lot of amazing movies.

00:14:43Marc:He's done some, he's written amazing things.

00:14:45Marc:He's won awards.

00:14:46Marc:Season two of Goliath just premiered on Amazon.

00:14:49Marc:You can stream all episodes of season one and season two now.

00:14:53Marc:This is me talking to the interesting and mysterious Billy Bob Thornton.

00:15:00you

00:15:07Marc:do you have an impression of him because i talked to brolin brolin's got an impression yeah uh well no i mean i i did a movie with nick and i've just known him over the years but it's just uh very which one did you which movie was it uh it's called u-turned oh yeah with john penn that weird kind of that john ridley script yeah oliver stone directed right like it was like just one town yeah like it was a very i can't i can't remember what it was about do you

00:15:34Guest:I don't know if I knew at the time.

00:15:39Guest:But it was an interesting experience.

00:15:41Guest:Yeah.

00:15:41Guest:No question about it.

00:15:43Guest:Because of those personalities.

00:15:44Guest:I mean, right.

00:15:45Guest:Yeah.

00:15:46Guest:And everybody was in it.

00:15:47Guest:Yeah.

00:15:47Guest:Claire Danes and Joaquin Phoenix and John Voight.

00:15:51Guest:Oh, my God.

00:15:52Guest:Wow.

00:15:53Guest:Everybody was in it.

00:15:54Guest:That's crazy.

00:15:55Guest:Yeah.

00:15:55Guest:Jennifer Lopez.

00:15:56Guest:She wasn't even J-Lo yet.

00:15:58Guest:I can't remember what the fuck it was about.

00:16:00Guest:Well, Sean gets, you know.

00:16:01Guest:It's like a noir thing.

00:16:03Guest:Yeah, his car breaks down in this little town in Arizona.

00:16:06Guest:Yeah, right.

00:16:07Guest:And I'm the mechanic.

00:16:08Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:16:08Guest:And I won't let him have his car.

00:16:10Guest:Right.

00:16:10Guest:And so he's stuck there.

00:16:11Guest:Right.

00:16:11Marc:And it gets weird.

00:16:12Guest:And it gets weird, yeah.

00:16:14Guest:And I gained 60 pounds for that movie.

00:16:16Guest:On purpose?

00:16:17Guest:Yeah, I had gained it for that and another movie.

00:16:22Guest:And then what I didn't consider was that the next movie after that, I didn't want to be heavy.

00:16:28Guest:Right.

00:16:28Guest:But I didn't have time to lose it.

00:16:29Guest:So I did two or three in a row like that.

00:16:31Guest:You can just lose it?

00:16:33Guest:Well, it's not easy, but it kind of is for me, really, because I'm allergic to a lot of food.

00:16:39Guest:You've been lean for a long time now.

00:16:40Guest:A long time now.

00:16:41Marc:Yeah.

00:16:42Guest:And this is what I was in high school, too.

00:16:44Guest:In high school?

00:16:45Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:16:46Guest:Wow.

00:16:47Guest:I actually am the same height and weight that I was as a senior in high school.

00:16:52Guest:That must feel good.

00:16:53Guest:That's not bad.

00:16:54Guest:Do you feel as good as you did in high school?

00:16:56Marc:Oh, shit, no.

00:16:58No.

00:16:58Marc:Right?

00:17:00Marc:What's the diet?

00:17:01Marc:Help me out.

00:17:02Marc:I'm on the sugar detox right now.

00:17:05Guest:Well, I'm just allergic to stuff.

00:17:07Guest:I'm allergic to wheat, dairy, shellfish.

00:17:11Guest:So it cuts down a lot of stuff.

00:17:12Guest:And also I have type AB negative blood, which is the rarest type.

00:17:16Guest:It's like less than 1% of the population of the world has it.

00:17:20Guest:So it means that you don't have as many digestive enzymes.

00:17:22Guest:Right.

00:17:23Guest:So I can't eat red meat or pork or anything like that.

00:17:27Guest:But you used to.

00:17:28Guest:I did, but I just assumed that everybody felt like hell after they ate.

00:17:33Guest:I just thought that's what eating felt like.

00:17:35Guest:Right.

00:17:36Marc:This is just what you get.

00:17:37Marc:Yeah, exactly.

00:17:38Marc:Right.

00:17:39Marc:Oh, that's interesting.

00:17:40Marc:But you weren't, like, really sick.

00:17:42Marc:You just felt shitty.

00:17:43Marc:Just felt shitty, yeah.

00:17:44Guest:And then you went to the doc, and he's like, oh, you got to... Went to a holistic doctor in California, and I've been out here 38 years, and I think I probably went to that doctor after about maybe...

00:17:54Guest:say eight or nine years and uh and she said uh try this i think maybe this could help you and sure enough it did no kidding so she just gave you the diet she said don't don't eat this shit yeah huh and then of course she gave me some you know extract of oh yeah of course sassafras root yeah of course the strange capsules and tinctures yeah yeah do this three times a day and believe in it

00:18:18Marc:yeah exactly and maybe that works maybe that's what it is of course it does just believe that it's working yeah so i just finished watching the whole first season of goliath i didn't get the second season but uh but like i i'm glad i locked in you know because i mean there's obviously we could talk about a lot of things but i wanted to see the the new the new work and i plowed through it in two days and did a great job oh and it's like uh

00:18:42Marc:You know, what I want to know, though, and I guess this is the kind of questions I don't usually talk about this kind of stuff right off the bat in terms of what you're here to talk about.

00:18:51Marc:So when you work with someone like Bill Hurt, you've not worked with him before, have you?

00:18:57Marc:No, I have not.

00:18:57Marc:Right, so this is a guy that's a little older than you, probably somebody you respected at some point.

00:19:01Marc:Do you still, do you get excited when you've got to work with a dude, or are you just sort of like, eh?

00:19:06Guest:Oh, sure.

00:19:06Guest:I love to work with good actors.

00:19:08Guest:I mean, it's kind of like, it's the opposite in movies than it is, you know, I have a foot in each world of music and movies.

00:19:19Guest:And TV now.

00:19:20Guest:And grew up in music.

00:19:22Guest:Yeah.

00:19:23Guest:In music, it's the other way around.

00:19:25Guest:If your opening act is really slamming, you're fucked.

00:19:31Guest:I mean, you could get somebody up there who's like, it's like when Jimi Hendrix opened for the Monkees or whatever it was.

00:19:38Guest:And I love the Monkees, but I mean, it was Jimi Hendrix, and that's what was happening right then.

00:19:43Guest:and so a good way to get fired off a tour is be better than the headliner i can't blow the headliner on stage but in movies you a lot of people have that attitude they think they're afraid to work with some really good actor because you know it's going to make them look bad or whatever it is but it's actually the other way around in movies and movies

00:20:06Guest:You want to surround yourself with good people.

00:20:09Guest:Right.

00:20:10Guest:And the better the actors are around you, the better you are.

00:20:14Guest:And I've always respected Bill Hurt.

00:20:17Guest:And he was terrific.

00:20:19Guest:Yeah.

00:20:19Guest:I loved working with him.

00:20:21Guest:We didn't work together a lot because we were on separate ends of the show.

00:20:25Guest:But it was always interesting and always creatively fulfilling.

00:20:31Marc:Right.

00:20:32Marc:Yeah, well, I mean, you didn't work a lot together, but the scenes that you did have were meaty.

00:20:36Marc:Yeah, they sure were.

00:20:37Marc:The courtroom scene and the hospital scene.

00:20:39Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:20:40Marc:And like, so when you say it was creatively fulfilling, is it because, like, you know, neither one of you seemed to be sleeping through it, that's for sure.

00:20:47Marc:Yeah.

00:20:48Marc:Right, you got a golden globe for this thing, didn't you?

00:20:51Marc:Yes.

00:20:51Marc:Yeah, it's great.

00:20:52Marc:But...

00:20:53Marc:When you're working with somebody like that, can you see what he's doing and what you're doing to get into that place?

00:21:01Marc:Or do you just feel it out?

00:21:02Guest:You know what I mean?

00:21:03Guest:Well, it was interesting with him.

00:21:05Guest:He had makeup.

00:21:06Guest:He had makeup.

00:21:07Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:21:08Guest:The whole burn thing.

00:21:09Guest:He's fucked up at the end.

00:21:10Guest:Yeah.

00:21:10Guest:uh honestly uh when i'm doing a scene yeah i i forget all the rest of the world yeah i i love to be so involved in a scene i'm not aware of yeah of the fact that you're making a movie or whatever but you know uh the weird thing about it was is that bill works in an

00:21:33Guest:If you could take two actors who are exactly the opposite, it's us.

00:21:37Guest:I mean, you know, he was like a Juilliard guy and very, very studied.

00:21:43Guest:I mean, you know, he really works on parts and all that.

00:21:47Guest:And me, I'm sort of a loose improvisational kind of, you know, cast everything to the wind kind of guy.

00:21:54Guest:And so it actually worked for that because we were supposed to be like oil and water.

00:21:59Marc:And also, he's supposed to be the control freak guy, and you're supposed to be a loose cannon dude.

00:22:04Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:22:05Guest:Kind of, right?

00:22:06Guest:And it worked beautifully.

00:22:08Guest:I mean, we didn't have to rehearse.

00:22:11Marc:Yeah.

00:22:12Marc:Yeah.

00:22:13Marc:And are you a producer on the show?

00:22:16Guest:No.

00:22:16Marc:Because I saw Dwight in there.

00:22:18Marc:I figured, like, well, Billy Bob must pull Dwight in there because you guys worked together so long ago.

00:22:23Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:22:23Guest:Well, Dwight's one of my closest friends.

00:22:25Guest:And actually, one of the producers said to me...

00:22:29Guest:hey what about uh we were just thinking i mean you know dwight yeah how would he would be good for a rich oil guy right or or a corporate guy i mean yeah and i said uh yeah it'd be great and he said do you think we could get him i said i'll call him yeah and i think you're the guy that broke him as an actor really

00:22:50Guest:He'd done a couple of things before Sling Blade.

00:22:53Guest:But Sling Blade is the thing that really all of a sudden got him a lot of credibility and work as an actor.

00:23:00Guest:But he'd done a couple of things before that.

00:23:02Guest:He was actually in that movie.

00:23:03Guest:I don't know if you remember.

00:23:04Guest:It might have been like a Showtime movie or something.

00:23:07Guest:I don't know.

00:23:08Guest:But it was about Roswell.

00:23:10Guest:I think it was called Roswell, and Kyle McLaughlin was in it.

00:23:13Marc:Was it about the aliens?

00:23:14Guest:Yeah, it's where the farmer discovers the aluminum stuff or whatever it was on his farm.

00:23:20Guest:And Dwight played the farmer, and I'd seen him in that.

00:23:23Guest:And he had a couple of scenes in Red Rock West with Nick Cage.

00:23:28Guest:I always was impressed with Dwight.

00:23:30Guest:I thought, because, you know, the thing is, as I started in music, ended up becoming...

00:23:36Marc:popular in the movie world yeah dwight started out as an actor and ended up becoming popular in the music world because he was in like the uh uh he was an actor at ohio state and all this kind of stuff oh yeah well yeah there's a couple guys that started out in music i think johnny depp started in music he was in a band in florida from what i heard like i mean it's interesting though you know how where however your creativity lands well i mean what happened like you're the second guy

00:24:02Marc:I hardly know anyone from Arkansas.

00:24:04Marc:Now, like I had Mary Steenburgen in here.

00:24:07Guest:Oh, sure.

00:24:07Marc:Like two weeks ago.

00:24:08Marc:Yeah.

00:24:09Marc:And just talking about Arkansas.

00:24:11Marc:Right.

00:24:11Marc:And she's got nothing but love for Arkansas.

00:24:13Guest:That's wild.

00:24:14Guest:Do you?

00:24:14Guest:There's a bunch of people from there.

00:24:15Guest:Of course.

00:24:16Marc:Of course there are.

00:24:17Guest:I just don't know a lot of them.

00:24:19Guest:I mean, the thing about it is when you start to research it, the number of, especially country music people,

00:24:26Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:24:27Guest:You know, Johnny Cash and Glen Campbell were both in there.

00:24:31Guest:They grew up there?

00:24:32Guest:Grew up there, yeah.

00:24:34Guest:We get the Ozarks, right?

00:24:35Guest:Yeah, yeah, I get the Ozarks and stuff.

00:24:37Guest:I think it's probably a nice place to, if you wanted to retire, you know, it's a good place for that because they've got Hot Springs, which is where I was born.

00:24:47Guest:And it's kind of a resort town.

00:24:49Guest:They have the mineral baths.

00:24:51Guest:Oh, yeah?

00:24:51Guest:It's a beautiful place, you know, yeah.

00:24:53Marc:It's weird because I wouldn't think to necessarily make it a destination.

00:24:59Marc:In my mind, I'm like, what are we going to do for that two weeks?

00:25:02Guest:Yeah, I mean, it's funny.

00:25:04Guest:I mean, you can find stuff.

00:25:05Guest:I mean, especially if you go to Hot Springs.

00:25:08Guest:That's kind of the town.

00:25:09Guest:It's got a lot of history.

00:25:11Guest:A lot of the gangsters went there back in the— From Chicago?

00:25:15Guest:Yeah, the Chicago guys.

00:25:16Guest:Like Al Capone had a place there, and Meyer Lansky, all those guys used to go there because—well, Al Capone, evidently.

00:25:22Guest:I mean, this is just what I read about it, you know.

00:25:25Guest:Right, sure.

00:25:26Guest:But supposedly Al Capone went to Hot Springs because in those days they thought that hot mineral baths would cure syphilis.

00:25:38Guest:Really?

00:25:39Guest:I guess it didn't.

00:25:40Guest:No.

00:25:42Guest:It doesn't at all.

00:25:43Guest:Maybe they should go to a holistic doctor.

00:25:45Guest:Yeah, no joke.

00:25:46Guest:Yeah.

00:25:46Guest:Or he just didn't believe in the mineral bath.

00:25:50Marc:Oh, man.

00:25:50Marc:It's right.

00:25:51Marc:He lost his mind and his dick.

00:25:54Marc:That makes sense.

00:25:55Marc:I guess people didn't want to tell anybody about it.

00:25:57Marc:You didn't want to go to the doctor.

00:25:58Marc:I don't know.

00:25:59Marc:But what part of Arkansas did you grow up in?

00:26:01Guest:Around Hot Springs.

00:26:02Marc:Oh, just right there?

00:26:03Marc:And you were born there and you stayed around there?

00:26:05Marc:I have no sense of the state.

00:26:06Guest:Well, it's the south central part of the state.

00:26:10Marc:And what state's it up against?

00:26:11Guest:It's surrounded by Missouri, Tennessee, Louisiana, Oklahoma.

00:26:19Marc:Real south, really?

00:26:20Guest:Yeah, I guess they'd call it the mid-south.

00:26:23Guest:I think to really get into Dixie, I think you're talking Mississippi.

00:26:28Marc:Right, sure.

00:26:29Guest:Alabama, Georgia, you know what I mean?

00:26:31Marc:Yeah, so you're sort of like the cowboy south.

00:26:33Marc:Yeah.

00:26:33Marc:There's more western sort of influence, like Oklahoma.

00:26:37Marc:Yeah.

00:26:38Marc:Yeah.

00:26:38Guest:It's more like Oklahoma.

00:26:40Marc:It's not agriculture.

00:26:41Marc:It's bulls and, you know, I don't know.

00:26:42Guest:And there is quite a bit of agriculture, but it's more on the eastern side because it's by the Mississippi River.

00:26:47Guest:Right.

00:26:48Guest:So in other words, I grew up like an hour and a half or so from Memphis.

00:26:50Guest:Oh, that's great.

00:26:52Guest:And Memphis was really...

00:26:54Guest:uh our town you know that was that's where we went for everything like they had a uh the mid-south coliseum there where we'd go see a lot of the concerts and stuff you and your family no no just yeah me and whatever whatever egghead i was hanging out with at the time get in the car and go yeah exactly none of your family's in the arts of any kind

00:27:15Guest:My uncle was a country singer and musician, not a famous one.

00:27:19Guest:He was a carpenter also, and kind of a, he was sort of a, you know, I don't know how to explain it.

00:27:29Guest:He was the same as Hank Williams, only not famous.

00:27:33Guest:He was an out-of-control animal.

00:27:36Guest:Absolutely, yeah.

00:27:37Guest:live the life just didn't make the bread exactly and my my grandmother was a writer she wrote for magazines and newspapers yeah and uh uh i grew up in a little tiny town uh mostly i lived at my grandmother's house till i was eight or nine years old oh yeah yeah there's no running water electricity but we were the sort of the family around there that was literate so she used to do people's taxes for them and stuff like that really yeah

00:28:03Marc:So was that type of poverty and lack of education?

00:28:09Marc:Yes.

00:28:10Marc:Where were your folks?

00:28:11Guest:They were there, too.

00:28:13Guest:See, my dad was in the Korean War.

00:28:15Guest:When he got out, he went to college on the GI Bill and ultimately became a history teacher and a coach.

00:28:21Guest:That's pretty good.

00:28:22Guest:Yeah, it was great.

00:28:23Guest:And he was a high school basketball coach.

00:28:26Guest:So if you see Hoosiers, imagine the really low rent, much more, well, a poorer version of Hoosiers.

00:28:38Guest:And that was kind of my life as a kid.

00:28:40Guest:Of Hackman?

00:28:40Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:28:41Guest:Did you ever work with him?

00:28:42Guest:Yeah, I never did.

00:28:43Guest:I know him, and I always liked Gene.

00:28:45Guest:He's, you know, those guys, I mean, those were the guys that inspired me.

00:28:51Guest:Yeah, right.

00:28:52Guest:Because they were still here, you know, when I got here.

00:28:56Guest:Right.

00:28:56Guest:I got here in 1980, so those guys were going strong.

00:29:01Guest:So Duvall, who I've done like seven movies with, Duvall was sort of my mentor, and I knew Hackman kind of through him, and also Wilford Brimley, and, you know, those guys.

00:29:11Guest:kind of guys.

00:29:12Guest:I loved those guys.

00:29:14Guest:They didn't fool around.

00:29:15Guest:Jimmy Conn, all those guys were heroes of mine.

00:29:20Guest:They didn't fool around?

00:29:21Guest:No, no.

00:29:22Guest:They worked.

00:29:24Guest:They work and they don't suffer fools gladly.

00:29:27Marc:No shit.

00:29:27Marc:No.

00:29:28Marc:Well, Hackman, he's one of those guys you can just watch eat.

00:29:32Marc:Oh, yeah, absolutely.

00:29:33Guest:I totally agree.

00:29:35Marc:Yeah.

00:29:37Marc:All right, so you're hanging around.

00:29:39Marc:Your dad's a teacher and coach.

00:29:42Marc:What's your mom doing?

00:29:43Guest:My mom, well, you know, back in those days, moms were housewives.

00:29:48Marc:Sure.

00:29:48Marc:And you got brothers and sisters?

00:29:50Guest:I had two brothers.

00:29:51Guest:My youngest brother, who is, I was practically like an uncle to him because I was 12 when he was born.

00:29:59Guest:Oh, wow.

00:30:00Guest:He's in the medical field up in Santa Clara, California, by San Jose there.

00:30:05Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:30:06Guest:He teaches nursing.

00:30:07Guest:Yeah.

00:30:07Guest:Oh, that's great.

00:30:08Guest:He's an RN, and also he was a medic in the Army and all that kind of stuff.

00:30:13Guest:Oh, no kidding.

00:30:14Guest:So he did that.

00:30:15Guest:My middle brother, Jimmy, who was a great songwriter and musician, passed away in 1988.

00:30:21Guest:Sorry, man.

00:30:22Guest:Yeah, he was 30 years old.

00:30:25Guest:What the fuck?

00:30:26Guest:Yeah, they think he had rheumatic fever as a child or something like that, and they never caught it because he never went to the doctor.

00:30:32Guest:But he died from a heart problem, and they think he had it since he was a kid.

00:30:39Guest:Oh, shit.

00:30:40Marc:Sounds like that thing Paxton might have had.

00:30:42Guest:yeah his was different but it was that kind of thing i mean the sad thing about paxton who was i was really close with you know and i talked to him like three weeks before he died it's crazy you know and bill but bill knew he had it yeah he went in to get it fixed yeah and that's yeah that's really uh i mean that's the whole tragedy of that thing it's like you go in to get it fixed and you and that didn't work out takes you just it's so sad same thing that happened to john ritter you know john died for the same thing yeah

00:31:10Marc:Oh, and you guys worked together, didn't you?

00:31:11Guest:Oh, yeah, a long time ago.

00:31:12Guest:Yeah, a long, long time ago.

00:31:14Guest:He was in Swing Blade, right?

00:31:15Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:31:16Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:31:17Guest:That was a big shift for him.

00:31:18Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:31:19Guest:He's great.

00:31:20Guest:I love John, yeah.

00:31:22Marc:So when you were growing up, the first thing was music, huh?

00:31:26Marc:You just started playing in bands and shit?

00:31:27Guest:Yeah, well, you know, I'm from that era when everything was about Elvis, and then after that, the Beatles.

00:31:36Marc:So you remember seeing them?

00:31:37Guest:Oh, absolutely.

00:31:38Guest:I was eight years old.

00:31:40Guest:It was a weird time because, see, I was born in 55.

00:31:45Guest:Kennedy was assassinated in 63, November 63.

00:31:48Guest:So I had just turned eight.

00:31:53Guest:Yeah.

00:31:55Guest:And eight or nine.

00:31:56Guest:So you kind of remember it.

00:31:59Guest:i remember it very clearly and it was everything to us because we got a little bit of uh uh sort of like pre-sullivan show stuff over here you know like they were selling the beetle dolls and i want to hold your hand was out right the first record i ever bought with my own mitts you know is i want to hold your hand oh really the single the single oh yeah and uh

00:32:21Guest:So when I saw the Beatles and Ed Sullivan, that was it.

00:32:24Guest:And I think for our era, the guys were born around my time.

00:32:30Guest:And in terms of actors, it's like Costner and Bruce Willis and me and Paxson also same year.

00:32:39Guest:I think Tom Hanks is one year behind us.

00:32:41Guest:Dennis Quaid's a year ahead of us.

00:32:43Guest:But we're all born right in that area.

00:32:44Guest:Yeah.

00:32:45Guest:And so I think one of the great things about being born in the days when rock and roll was new is the fact that the bar was set so high for us that we grew up knowing we'd never be what we wanted to be.

00:33:05Guest:So, in other words, it keeps you trying.

00:33:07Guest:You know what I mean?

00:33:08Guest:It keeps you hungry your whole life because you're trying to achieve something that's impossible because you're never going to be Elvis or the Beatles.

00:33:16Guest:It's not going to happen.

00:33:17Marc:But you never thought, like, but we can do it.

00:33:20Marc:All I need is these three chords and, you know, we can have a good time and get people moving.

00:33:25Guest:yeah no we did think that yeah and and of course back then you thought that maybe you could be the american beatles right so i'm and by the time i'm 10 11 i'm in a band you know and we're you know our equipment was pretty limited at 10 at 10 you know but uh you know playing a broom as a guitar that kind of thing but what did you play what's your instrument uh i started on drums oh yeah yeah

00:33:49Marc:And that was your thing, huh?

00:33:51Guest:Yeah.

00:33:51Marc:So you remember, like, that's weird, because I talked to Paxton about, like, he was at, I think he was at that day in Dallas.

00:33:57Marc:Oh, right.

00:33:58Guest:Yeah, he was.

00:33:59Marc:Yeah, man.

00:34:00Marc:I mean, he was on his dad's shoulders.

00:34:01Marc:That's right.

00:34:02Marc:Or someone's shoulders that, man, do you remember that happening?

00:34:06Guest:Oh, absolutely.

00:34:07Marc:Just like grownups crying or what?

00:34:09Guest:everybody lost their minds, and it was like, yeah, everybody was weepy, and it was a gigantic deal, and in school, they let us out of school, and I think maybe, I can't remember right now, but I think it might have been on a Sunday when it actually happened.

00:34:26Guest:I'm not real clear on that, but I do know they let us out of school for a day or two, and then when we came back to school, they brought television sets into all the classrooms, and we watched the funeral on television.

00:34:38Guest:With Jackie walking with those kids.

00:34:40Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:34:41Guest:Holy shit.

00:34:42Guest:That was crazy.

00:34:43Marc:So you start playing when you're young, and when do you get into the first real band?

00:34:49Guest:I was probably in my first real band.

00:34:53Guest:I was probably 13.

00:34:54Guest:And we played the usual stuff.

00:34:58Guest:We played House of the Rising Sun and Hanky Panky by Tommy James and the Shondells.

00:35:04Guest:All that kind of stuff.

00:35:04Guest:One of the funniest things we ever did

00:35:07Guest:Because we didn't have a microphone in the beginning.

00:35:10Guest:Uh-huh.

00:35:11Guest:And stuff was hard to come by.

00:35:13Guest:And these were the days when maybe two guitar players would play through the same amp.

00:35:21Guest:Right.

00:35:22Yeah.

00:35:22Guest:cut each other out and yeah exactly it's just a mess right you know it's good enough for us so one guy had a uh one guy had a silver tone amp and one guy had a fender uh i think it was a deluxe like that thing

00:35:38Guest:Yeah.

00:35:40Guest:Oh, is that a deluxe?

00:35:40Guest:Yeah, it's a little deluxe.

00:35:42Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:35:42Guest:It's like a 57, 58.

00:35:43Marc:That's an old one.

00:35:44Guest:That's a dandy right there.

00:35:45Guest:Yeah, it's great.

00:35:48Guest:So we had a couple of guys play through one amp, and then the guy who played bass played through the other, but we didn't have a bass.

00:35:55Guest:So he just played the bass notes on a guitar, right?

00:36:00Guest:And then I played drums.

00:36:01Guest:And, of course, my drum kit at that time was something like we got through Sears Catalog or whatever that had like a picture of a palm tree on the front of the drum.

00:36:09Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:10Guest:And so we played at this.

00:36:15Guest:Our first real performance in front of people was at a PTA meeting in the cafeteria, the elementary school.

00:36:23Yeah.

00:36:23Guest:And we played House of Rising Sun.

00:36:26Guest:But this was all instrumentals.

00:36:27Guest:No singing.

00:36:28Guest:No singing.

00:36:29Guest:So we did Hanky Panky, House of Rising Sun.

00:36:32Guest:Right.

00:36:32Guest:And a couple others.

00:36:33Guest:I can't remember what they were.

00:36:35Guest:Summertime Blues.

00:36:36Guest:Sure.

00:36:38Guest:But those songs are pretty repetitive.

00:36:41Guest:You know what I mean?

00:36:41Guest:Yeah.

00:36:42Guest:So with no vocal.

00:36:43Guest:Yeah.

00:36:44Guest:But the funny one that we did, there was a song at the time done by a guy named Sergeant Barry Sadler, who was a Vietnam, like, Green Beret.

00:36:54Guest:Yeah.

00:36:55Guest:And it was called The Ballad of the Green Beret.

00:36:57Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:58Guest:Well, the whole point of the song was a recitation by this guy.

00:37:02Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:37:03Guest:You know, with these people singing in the background and stuff.

00:37:07Guest:Yeah.

00:37:07Guest:We did an instrumental of something that stays on like a couple of chords with the drums doing kind of like a parade march.

00:37:14Guest:So we do an instrumental of a talking song.

00:37:17Marc:And it was just stupid.

00:37:18Marc:And no one's playing the melody or he is?

00:37:21Guest:No.

00:37:23Guest:Because nobody played lead guitar then.

00:37:26Marc:So you're just playing the chords?

00:37:27Marc:Playing the chords, yeah.

00:37:28Marc:Well, yeah, even that old amp, that's got to plug in for a mic.

00:37:31Marc:Oh, sure.

00:37:32Marc:Yeah, these things.

00:37:33Marc:We did that too.

00:37:33Marc:Yeah, everything goes right through that.

00:37:35Guest:When we finally got a mic, we plugged the mic in with a guitar, and it was just mud.

00:37:41Marc:Yeah, it's all in one thing.

00:37:43Guest:It's perfect.

00:37:43Guest:Let's get the chords.

00:37:44Guest:Exactly.

00:37:45Guest:So did you ever make money?

00:37:47Guest:Well, we started to when I got in high school, yeah.

00:37:50Guest:Same guys?

00:37:51Guest:Oh, no.

00:37:52Guest:I moved on.

00:37:52Guest:I was in three or four different bands from the time I was.

00:37:55Marc:Always playing drums?

00:37:57Guest:No, I was a singer in some bands.

00:37:58Guest:I played bass in one band, but either drums or vocals usually.

00:38:04Guest:Yeah.

00:38:05Guest:So we, you know, by the time I got in my late teens, we were, they used regional acts a lot of times for opening bands for big names.

00:38:15Marc:Sure, your buddy Billy Gibbons opened for Hendrix.

00:38:18Marc:Oh, he sure did.

00:38:19Marc:What was it, Electric Sidewalks?

00:38:20Marc:Oh, Moving Sidewalks.

00:38:21Marc:Moving Sidewalks, yeah.

00:38:23Guest:and we opened for a lot of people i mean we opened for black oak arkansas and humble pie and uh that's cool you know earl scruggs review richie havens you know so by the time i was you know 18 19 i had already played at festivals and stuff of 20 000 people so that you know the feeling i knew i knew the feeling early so that was good yeah it must be cool to see earl scruggs play

00:38:47Guest:Oh, man, I tell you what, that Earl Scruggs Review, because his sons were plugged into the rock and roll world, and they got Earl playing the banjo thing, doing that.

00:38:58Marc:One of the kids is a mandolin player.

00:39:00Marc:How does it lay out, the Scruggs boys?

00:39:02Guest:Well, in the Earl Scruggs Review, they really just played guitars, bass, and drums, and they're always on banjo, because it was kind of...

00:39:11Guest:It was kind of a version of like a Burrito Brothers or, you know, that kind of thing.

00:39:19Marc:Trying to get the kids to like it.

00:39:20Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:39:21Marc:Yeah, let's get Dad hip to the kids.

00:39:23Marc:Let's get the kids hip to Dad.

00:39:24Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:39:25Marc:And Havens, was he up there by himself just beating that thing up?

00:39:28Guest:You know, he had two guys with him.

00:39:31Guest:He had a bass player and a drummer.

00:39:33Guest:And Richie, and I knew Richie years later also.

00:39:37Guest:Really?

00:39:37Guest:We played up there with him in 76, but...

00:39:40Guest:I got to know him later on, and he was on a show with us at South by Southwest one time, and I reminded him of this when he played at this one festival.

00:39:50Guest:He played so hard, and he played open tuning, and his hands were like a foot and a half long, so he just wrapped his hand around the neck, and he strummed with his fingers.

00:40:01Guest:Yeah.

00:40:02Guest:And he was so intense that he passed out.

00:40:05Guest:He was sitting on a stool.

00:40:07Guest:He used to sit on a stool at play.

00:40:08Marc:And rock, right?

00:40:09Guest:And rock back and forth.

00:40:10Guest:And he just went over backwards.

00:40:12Guest:And I was one of the guys who helped to get him off the stage, which was pretty, at the time, I was like, I'm going to be in Rolling Stone magazine because I helped get Richie Havens off the stage when he passed out.

00:40:26Guest:Of course, you know, didn't come to anything.

00:40:28Marc:He just thought you were a roadie or something.

00:40:30Marc:Did he remember it?

00:40:31Marc:no no no shit i hate to remember nothing so you do you go to memphis and you do the whole thing you try to get record deals how do you end up you know you're taking a turn and coming out here you know what i mean well we were we made a couple of records you know uh but not under the name that not the box master oh gosh no no no this is why the box master has only been together 12 years but this i did solo records before that but

00:40:58Marc:I heard a couple of them, yeah, but that was still 2001, though, right?

00:41:02Guest:Yeah, yeah, and I actually made my first real record in a studio in Muscle Shoals, Alabama, in Sheffield, Alabama, technically, which is, you know, obviously a hotbed for the old soul stuff, and

00:41:18Marc:Did you play at that studio?

00:41:19Marc:At the actual Muscle Shoals?

00:41:21Guest:Not Muscle Shoals Sound.

00:41:22Guest:They had several there.

00:41:24Guest:Yeah, sure.

00:41:25Guest:And we were at a studio called Widget Sound, which is defunct now, but a tiny little place.

00:41:32Guest:Yeah.

00:41:32Guest:And we drove down and recorded there.

00:41:34Guest:We did two songs.

00:41:37Guest:They never became a record, but we had one of the guys in the band, I think, still has them on real, real tape.

00:41:42Guest:Like Demo?

00:41:42Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:41:43Guest:And they were both original songs.

00:41:45Guest:And this is back, we were still really cutting our teeth on writing our own songs.

00:41:50Guest:Were you like 19, 18?

00:41:52Guest:Yeah, like, yeah, 18, 19.

00:41:54Guest:And we had one song called Lady of Evil.

00:41:58Guest:Yeah.

00:41:58Guest:And the other song was called You and Me for Eternity.

00:42:01Marc:Oh, nice.

00:42:02Marc:Yeah, right.

00:42:02Marc:Good little rhyme there.

00:42:05Marc:You got it all covered, love and the other thing.

00:42:07Guest:Exactly.

00:42:08Guest:And then I got in a band called Nothing Doing with a couple of guys that I'm still in touch with these days from near my hometown.

00:42:15Guest:And we were a three piece and we cut a record over at Ardent Studios in Memphis, which is a very famous old studio.

00:42:22Guest:Still going.

00:42:23Marc:Yeah.

00:42:24Marc:But were those released?

00:42:26Guest:Well, that one was released by our manager who got impressed up and distributed around Houston.

00:42:33Guest:Because what happened is we ended up, a guy came backstage.

00:42:37Guest:We're playing a place called Cardi's in Houston.

00:42:39Guest:I don't think it's there anymore.

00:42:40Guest:This guy came backstage and said, hey, you guys sound just like ZZ Top.

00:42:44Guest:How'd you like to be a ZZ Top cover act?

00:42:47Guest:I'm an agent, and I used to work for ZZ Top.

00:42:50Guest:And this was back before you had these cover bands of, you know, like they do now.

00:42:55Guest:And we said, well, what's in it for us?

00:42:58Guest:We don't know what that means.

00:42:59Guest:They said, well, you need to look like them and play their songs and stuff like that.

00:43:02Guest:And we said, well, what do we get out of it?

00:43:05Guest:And he said, how much you making a night?

00:43:07Guest:And we said, $300.

00:43:08Guest:And he said, how'd you like to make $1,500 a night?

00:43:11Guest:We said, we'd like that very much.

00:43:12Guest:Sure.

00:43:13Guest:So you played in this easy top cover band?

00:43:14Guest:For two or three years, yeah, called Tres Hombres.

00:43:17Guest:Really?

00:43:18Guest:You tell Billy about this?

00:43:19Guest:Oh, Billy saw us back then.

00:43:22Guest:I've known Gibbons for a long time.

00:43:24Marc:So what moment happens where you're like, well, fuck this, I'm going to Hollywood?

00:43:28Guest:I mean, what was the... Well, my buddy Tom Epperson, who... The guy you write with?

00:43:32Guest:The guy I wrote a lot of scripts with over the years.

00:43:35Guest:Tom was my neighbor back home.

00:43:36Guest:In Arkansas?

00:43:38Guest:Yeah.

00:43:38Guest:And he was a smart guy.

00:43:40Guest:He ended up teaching freshman English back there and stuff like that.

00:43:44Guest:And he wanted to go be a screenwriter.

00:43:46Guest:Right.

00:43:47Guest:And he said, you know, you were in drama in high school.

00:43:50Guest:He goes, maybe you can be an actor.

00:43:52Guest:I said, yeah, maybe I can get in a band, which is really why I came out here.

00:43:54Guest:And I just came with him.

00:43:56Guest:You did do drama in high school, though?

00:43:58Guest:Well, I did it because I made such shitty grades and everything else.

00:44:02Guest:I thought, how hard can this be?

00:44:03Guest:And I thought, maybe I'll get a C or a B or something.

00:44:07Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:44:08Guest:That'd be great.

00:44:09Guest:Right.

00:44:09Guest:And there were girls in there.

00:44:10Marc:Sure.

00:44:10Guest:You know what I mean?

00:44:11Guest:But you did a little acting.

00:44:13Guest:I did some acting as a junior and senior in high school.

00:44:17Guest:Did you like it?

00:44:18Yeah.

00:44:18Guest:Well, it was, I mean, we did stuff like Cinderella.

00:44:21Guest:I know.

00:44:22Guest:I mean, did you like being on stage?

00:44:23Guest:Did you get the vibe?

00:44:24Guest:Not particularly.

00:44:25Guest:Didn't do nothing?

00:44:26Guest:I know.

00:44:26Guest:I mean, I just thought it was kind of silly.

00:44:29Guest:Plus, you were always kind of dressed up funny, you know, and those things.

00:44:33Marc:Yeah.

00:44:33Marc:So you come out here with Epperson thinking you're going to hit some rock and roll.

00:44:37Marc:What year is it?

00:44:38Guest:uh we got here i think we got here actually in not 80 81 the beginning of 81. so it's so so the strip is different it's not the 70s but something else is happening hair metal stuff like that absolutely and and that was even maybe a little before that yeah right going on right and uh uh

00:44:58Guest:But back then, the Sunset Strip was still really alive.

00:45:01Guest:Sure.

00:45:02Guest:And then they had cruising.

00:45:03Guest:Remember when cruising became popular on the strip?

00:45:05Guest:And they had hookers on the strip that were like out of Vegas.

00:45:09Guest:I mean, you know, they wore the feather boas and they were dressed up in miniskirts.

00:45:13Marc:So 81.

00:45:13Marc:So it's like the peak of coke and hair.

00:45:15Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:45:16Marc:So what are you doing?

00:45:18Marc:Are you going to clubs?

00:45:19Marc:Are you checking out the scenes?

00:45:21Guest:I'm barely alive.

00:45:22Guest:I mean, we got out here with hardly any money.

00:45:26Guest:We lived in a creepy little converted motel down on Motor Avenue in Palms.

00:45:34Guest:Oh, in Palms.

00:45:35Guest:Yeah.

00:45:35Marc:That's where people would live when they wanted to live like that.

00:45:38Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:45:39Guest:It was literally a converted motel.

00:45:41Guest:So it was one room with a bathroom, no kitchen, no anything.

00:45:46Guest:So Tom was four years older than me, and they used to pick on me when I was a kid.

00:45:52Guest:So he took the bed.

00:45:54Guest:I slept on the floor.

00:45:55Guest:But that's where we started writing screenplays.

00:45:57Guest:And I got a job working for Shakey's Pizza Parlor.

00:46:00Guest:Oh, my God, Shakey's.

00:46:01Guest:Yeah.

00:46:02Marc:Well, I mean, it wasn't terrible pizza, but you had the whole birthday thing.

00:46:06Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:46:08Guest:And the bunch of lunch.

00:46:10Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:46:10Guest:Was there a bunch of lunch?

00:46:11Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:46:11Guest:It was a bunch of lunch.

00:46:12Guest:You know, you get all you can eat, man.

00:46:17Guest:So that was the job?

00:46:18Guest:You working at Shakey's?

00:46:19Guest:Yeah, I worked at Shakey's.

00:46:20Guest:Wearing the hat, throwing shit in the oven?

00:46:22Guest:Bow tie, the whole thing.

00:46:23Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:46:23Guest:Making pizzas.

00:46:24Marc:Isn't there a piano in Shakey's?

00:46:25Marc:Wasn't there a piano in there?

00:46:26Guest:Yeah.

00:46:27Guest:Well, they used to have a guy.

00:46:28Guest:Right.

00:46:29Guest:Our Shakey's didn't, but they would have a guy dressed up in the old thing with the bow tie and the straw hat playing a banjo.

00:46:35Guest:Okay.

00:46:36Guest:And doing that kind of stuff.

00:46:37Guest:Not of yours?

00:46:38Guest:No, our Shakey's didn't have that.

00:46:40Guest:They had like a centipede game or something.

00:46:43Marc:That was it?

00:46:43Marc:Yeah.

00:46:44Marc:Just some kid in the corner?

00:46:45Guest:Right.

00:46:45Guest:Exactly.

00:46:46Guest:Exactly.

00:46:46Marc:So that was the gig.

00:46:47Marc:So you were sweeping on the floor, writing screenplays with that person, working at Shakey's?

00:46:52Marc:Yeah.

00:46:53Marc:And then how long does that go on for, dude?

00:46:55Guest:Well, I worked Shakey's like a year, year and a half, and then I got some other kind of job somewhere.

00:47:00Guest:And then the guys in the band called me up and said, hey, we're moving to Houston.

00:47:06Guest:You want to come back down here and play some more music?

00:47:09Guest:And I was having, I had a bad breakup with this girl, and

00:47:13Guest:Tom actually came and picked me up because this girl, she busted my heart.

00:47:20Guest:And I was in a pair of shorts and a straw hat.

00:47:24Guest:It was in the summer running down the median like just desperate.

00:47:29Guest:Where, here in L.A.?

00:47:30Guest:Yeah, down Venice Boulevard.

00:47:32Guest:And I ended up at a 7-Eleven, and I called Tom.

00:47:34Guest:Yeah.

00:47:35Guest:And I said, you got to come get me.

00:47:37Guest:I'm losing my mind.

00:47:38Guest:I got on a bus and went to Houston.

00:47:41Guest:I said, I can't take it.

00:47:42Guest:And I went back to Houston, played music for about a little over a year, and then came back.

00:47:47Guest:Had you lived in Houston before?

00:47:49Guest:Uh...

00:47:51Guest:Yeah, me and the guys, we'd been in Houston.

00:47:55Marc:Oh, with the Tres Hombres?

00:47:56Guest:Yeah, their dad owned an equipment rental place.

00:48:04Guest:Oh, they were brothers?

00:48:06Guest:They were brothers, and he owned an equipment rental place, and they worked there, and I started working there.

00:48:12Guest:You know, we rented bulldozers and backhoes and sump pumps and everything else.

00:48:18Marc:So that was the subsidized music.

00:48:22Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:48:23Marc:So you go back to Houston.

00:48:24Marc:And then I come back.

00:48:25Marc:But you're all fucked up out there.

00:48:26Marc:You leave, you lose your mind over a woman.

00:48:28Marc:Yeah.

00:48:30Marc:So that's not a bad feeling, man.

00:48:32Marc:It really is.

00:48:33Marc:To be broke and brokenhearted.

00:48:35Marc:Yeah.

00:48:35Marc:And at a 7-Eleven using a payphone.

00:48:37Marc:Right.

00:48:38Guest:It was pretty bad.

00:48:40Guest:And we were starving to death all the time.

00:48:43Guest:Even in the Shakey's job, I think I brought home $6 over what our rent was, which was $90 a week.

00:48:51Guest:What was he doing?

00:48:52Guest:Nothing.

00:48:53Guest:Yeah.

00:48:55Guest:Well, he was a teacher and he was looking for a teaching job.

00:48:57Guest:It's like, you know, he ultimately got a job working at a private mail receiving center.

00:49:02Guest:And he worked there for a few years and I worked there for a little bit.

00:49:05Guest:He got me on there.

00:49:06Guest:And this is back when we first got here.

00:49:09Guest:I was just talking about this with somebody the other day.

00:49:11Guest:Stuff was still here.

00:49:13Guest:Like Tiny Naylor's was here and Schwab's.

00:49:17Marc:Yeah.

00:49:18Guest:And, you know, places like that were still around.

00:49:21Marc:Right, sure, in 81.

00:49:23Marc:Yeah.

00:49:24Marc:Yeah, they're all, it's weird how they're all gone, huh?

00:49:27Guest:Yeah.

00:49:28Marc:A lot of stuff's gone.

00:49:29Marc:But even like Ben Frank's.

00:49:31Guest:Oh, I know.

00:49:32Guest:Ben Frank's is now some kind of like 50s diner.

00:49:35Marc:I think it's a Mel's diner.

00:49:36Marc:Yeah, right.

00:49:37Marc:But Ben Frank's was around when I was here and there was just.

00:49:40Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:49:41Guest:yeah you do you do see it go away but you know you caught that you know coming out in 81 82 that at least the tail end of uh the town was still around yeah a lot of it so you went to houston and that didn't work out and you came back i came back and i was in an acting class uh there was a guy john woodlock who i owe a lot to who was had an acting class and we met this friend still around i know he moved to australia and he's a cattle rancher now really yeah he was your acting teacher

00:50:07Guest:Yeah.

00:50:07Guest:He taught up in San Francisco and L.A.

00:50:10Guest:And there was a guy named Jeff Lester, who is still a director and writer and lives in Vegas.

00:50:17Guest:And Jeff had a connection to Tom through his girlfriend's mother, had been a schoolteacher with Tom.

00:50:25Guest:So he said, when we met him, and he was the only guy we knew here, and he said, you ought to come to my acting class.

00:50:33Guest:And I did.

00:50:34Guest:And Tom was like, yeah, you should try this.

00:50:38Guest:You know, why not?

00:50:39Guest:And I did.

00:50:39Guest:And I was in the class for two or three years, and he was really good to me.

00:50:46Marc:What made you, like, because it doesn't sound like initially you had much interest in it.

00:50:51Guest:Well, we didn't have where I grew up.

00:50:53Guest:There was one theater and they played whatever the new Don Knotts or Dick Van Dyke movie was.

00:51:00Guest:And that's all we knew about movies.

00:51:01Guest:I wasn't, you know, Martin Scorsese is one of these guys who knows movies inside and out.

00:51:06Guest:He grew up, you know, as a rabid movie kid, you know.

00:51:09Guest:Right.

00:51:09Guest:I was that way with albums.

00:51:11Guest:Like I knew all the liner notes.

00:51:12Guest:I didn't know anything about movies.

00:51:14Guest:Or theater or anything else.

00:51:15Guest:So you were doing acting as sort of a fluke or you just did?

00:51:18Guest:Well, I just did it.

00:51:19Guest:Yeah, kind of.

00:51:20Guest:I mean, I just went in there because I didn't have anything else to do.

00:51:23Guest:But I didn't have any money.

00:51:24Guest:So what I did is I took one of Tom's Shakespeare books.

00:51:29Guest:We were staying with my cousin who I hadn't seen in like a million years out in San Bernardino because we'd run out of money.

00:51:34Guest:So we're in Rialto, California out there in San Bernardino County.

00:51:38Guest:Right.

00:51:38Guest:And I take one of Tom's Shakespeare books because the guy said, well, come in.

00:51:42Guest:And do a scene or a monologue.

00:51:44Guest:Well, I can't do a scene.

00:51:45Guest:I don't know anybody.

00:51:45Guest:So I did a monologue and I figured I know what I'll do.

00:51:49Guest:I'll rewrite Othello.

00:51:51Guest:Yeah.

00:51:52Guest:And I'll play all the characters.

00:51:53Guest:And so I went into the class and I started doing Othello from Iago's point of view, sitting in his jail cell telling what happened.

00:52:02Guest:Yeah.

00:52:03Guest:So every time I got to another character, I changed voices and I played them all as modern day people.

00:52:09Guest:Like Othello is kind of a street hustler guy and Desdemona was kind of a valley girl and Iago was a redneck.

00:52:16Guest:You know what I mean?

00:52:16Guest:Stuff like that.

00:52:17Marc:It's like a one man show.

00:52:18Guest:Yeah, it was.

00:52:20Guest:And the acting teacher, after about 30 or 40 minutes, he stopped me and he said, he goes, where did you get this?

00:52:27Guest:I said, I just kind of made it up, you know.

00:52:30Guest:And he said, I want to talk to you after class.

00:52:33Guest:But he said, right now we have other people in the class that need to do stuff, so take a seat.

00:52:37Guest:He goes, how much more of this is there?

00:52:39Guest:I said, I don't know.

00:52:39Guest:I'll probably stretch it to another half hour.

00:52:42Guest:And yeah.

00:52:43Guest:So after class, I thought I was in trouble, you know.

00:52:46Guest:Shakespeare police?

00:52:48Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:52:49Guest:And so he says, listen, I don't know who you are or where you came from, but he said, you have a real gift for this.

00:52:58Guest:He said, so you just came in here and improvised Othello and played all these characters.

00:53:04Guest:I go, yeah, I didn't know what else to do.

00:53:06Guest:He said, well, it's amazing.

00:53:08Guest:And he said to me at the time,

00:53:10Guest:Out of everybody I've ever taught, I think that you will be standing on a stage someday accepting a trophy.

00:53:17Guest:And he said, I think you can do this, which shocked me.

00:53:20Guest:And before him, the only other teacher that ever encouraged me was Marty Treadway, who was my drama teacher in high school.

00:53:27Guest:So they saw it in you.

00:53:29Guest:I guess they saw something.

00:53:30Guest:But one way or the other, you know, I did this and he said, look, this is great.

00:53:36Guest:And I said, well, how much is it?

00:53:38Guest:And he told me how much it was.

00:53:39Guest:I can't remember.

00:53:40Guest:And he said, I'll float you for a while.

00:53:44Guest:He goes, it's worth it to me to watch you work here.

00:53:48Marc:Oh, so that was your audition.

00:53:49Guest:It was to, yeah, to see about getting in class.

00:53:52Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:53:53Guest:So he floated you for a while?

00:53:55Guest:Yeah, yeah, he did.

00:53:56Guest:And he also let me stay at his house part time.

00:53:58Guest:He was really good to me.

00:53:59Guest:He let a lot of us stay there.

00:54:00Marc:Yeah.

00:54:01Guest:Anytime he went out of town, we would all clamor to be the one that got to house sit for him because he lived in a nice regular house over on Bronson there.

00:54:09Marc:Is that where he taught?

00:54:10Guest:no no he taught you know where crossroads of the world is yeah cherokee and sunset yeah it was a little theater right in there and um so one way or the other he said but listen from now on when you come in here just know that monologues are supposed to be from three to five minutes long yeah and i said sorry about that i had no idea yeah yeah i was doing a show yeah but he let me finish it and what'd you learn there

00:54:33Guest:You know, I started paying attention more at that point.

00:54:39Guest:And I think the main thing I learned there was that you got to do this stuff and you got to get over the fact that you're showing your ass in front of a bunch of people.

00:54:53Guest:Uh-huh.

00:54:53Guest:I think that's I mean, because I don't always agree with acting teachers and methods.

00:54:59Guest:And I think it was good for me because I got to do it all the time.

00:55:04Guest:Yeah.

00:55:04Guest:I met people.

00:55:05Guest:I felt like part of something.

00:55:07Guest:And I because I was kind of an outcast most of my life still am, you know, in a lot of ways.

00:55:11Guest:And.

00:55:12Guest:why is that i think i don't know i i just i just feel kind of like i don't belong i mean i i'm look i'm just some poor moron who came out here and got lucky i don't know yeah i i um you think you're an oddball yeah maybe a little bit or or i'm just so ordinary that you know

00:55:31Guest:I'm not sure what it is, really.

00:55:32Guest:But, I mean, I was listening to Frank Zappa and the Mothers and Captain Beefheart when I was like 12.

00:55:37Guest:You know what I mean?

00:55:37Guest:That'll do it.

00:55:38Guest:I was just different than the people back home.

00:55:40Guest:You know what I mean?

00:55:41Marc:Blame Zappa and Beefheart.

00:55:43Marc:That's good.

00:55:44Guest:And the Bonzo Dog Band.

00:55:45Marc:Yeah.

00:55:46Guest:But I just...

00:55:48Guest:I don't know.

00:55:49Guest:I always fit in more with guys like Jim Jarmusch or somebody like that.

00:55:54Guest:I never was.

00:55:56Marc:Or Waits or somebody.

00:55:57Marc:Yeah.

00:55:57Guest:Those guys were the people that I looked at as being people that I kind of understood what they were up to.

00:56:05Yeah.

00:56:05Guest:and i'm not to this day i'm real nervous around rich people and and like you know i don't i don't know how to behave and big sort of society situations and that kind of thing and i was that way as a kid and i i think a lot of it is i i'm still insecure from growing up real poor and being an outcast in school and being a poor kid you know what i mean sure yeah i think i think it

00:56:29Marc:It's still around.

00:56:30Marc:And I guess the reason why you looked at those guys like Zappa, Beefheart, Weitz, or Jarmusch is that they seemed like outsiders that could navigate their own space and hold their own space and get respect for being out there.

00:56:47Guest:Yeah, I think so.

00:56:48Guest:Yeah.

00:56:48Guest:Yeah, I mean, we all find those people, I think, in our lives.

00:56:53Guest:It's like when somebody would say something bad about me on the internet, which is still odd to me because we grew up not knowing who hated you.

00:57:01Guest:You know what I mean?

00:57:01Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:57:02Guest:Now you know.

00:57:02Guest:You'd hear it from another guy.

00:57:04Guest:Yeah.

00:57:05Guest:Now they can do it right to your face.

00:57:06Guest:Exactly.

00:57:07Guest:Some guy named Doug and Lincoln hates me.

00:57:10Guest:Yeah.

00:57:10Guest:Anyway, but the thing about that is when those guys would say something about me, I would want to get hold of them and say, Dude, I'm a pathetic, ugly guy who somehow became popular as an actor for a spell.

00:57:29Guest:I'm now doing one TV show.

00:57:31Guest:I have a family.

00:57:33Guest:I'm not a...

00:57:35Guest:you know, I ain't no pinup boy.

00:57:37Guest:You know, it's like, why, why pick on me?

00:57:39Guest:You know, it's like, it's like, I'm, I'm, I'm you, I'm not them.

00:57:43Marc:Well, that, but nevermind.

00:57:44Marc:They're like, nah, nah, you're the guy that married Angelina Jolie.

00:57:48Marc:You're a movie star.

00:57:49Marc:You won an Oscar, like whatever you, you know, they, they like, I get it.

00:57:54Guest:You know, I mean, I, I, I get that part, but, but you don't have nothing to do with you is what I'm saying.

00:57:59Guest:Right.

00:57:59Guest:Exactly.

00:58:00Guest:It's, but it's like inside, you know who you are.

00:58:02Guest:Yeah.

00:58:03Guest:You know what I mean?

00:58:05Guest:Yeah.

00:58:05Guest:Right.

00:58:05Guest:So you kind of feel like, I don't know.

00:58:08Guest:I mean, pick on somebody who's pretty and got a lot of money.

00:58:13Marc:Yeah, a real asshole.

00:58:14Marc:Yeah, right?

00:58:15Marc:Pick on a real asshole.

00:58:17Marc:I'm not a real asshole.

00:58:19Marc:No, I know what you're saying.

00:58:20Marc:But I do think that, well, that's interesting to me because your stardom was profound.

00:58:30Marc:I mean, it was like one day you were this guy and the next day you were like that guy.

00:58:34Marc:Yeah.

00:58:35Marc:You know, publicly.

00:58:36Marc:Right, right.

00:58:36Marc:And I, and I, and I imagine that, that, that had to have, I can't imagine what that felt like.

00:58:43Marc:I mean, you know, how do you navigate that?

00:58:45Marc:I mean, like if you feel like, you know, you're just a, you know, this guy that you are, you know, you do, you do have, live in the rare air world a little bit, right?

00:58:55Marc:Oh yeah.

00:58:56Marc:So, so like before, like just to get there, so you take the acting class for a few years and what leads to, you know, you working?

00:59:05Guest:Well, I started to do these showcases.

00:59:07Guest:They used to do showcases.

00:59:09Guest:One of them was up at the big old Methodist Church at Highland when you're going toward the Hollywood Bowl.

00:59:15Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:15Guest:Franklin, yeah.

00:59:16Marc:Yeah, Highland and Franklin, yeah.

00:59:17Guest:They would have showcases in there and other places, and you would pay a certain amount of money, 15, 20 bucks.

00:59:23Guest:I can't remember what it was.

00:59:25Guest:And the people that ran the showcase would bring in different casting directors or directors.

00:59:29Guest:Huh.

00:59:30Guest:And you'd get to show them your stuff.

00:59:32Marc:And that was real.

00:59:33Marc:Yeah.

00:59:33Guest:And some people actually got cast out of those showcases.

00:59:38Guest:And I met a couple people during that process.

00:59:41Guest:And also, I just started getting little things here and there.

00:59:45Guest:Like I remember being on Matlock.

00:59:47Guest:I had one scene playing a pawn shop worker.

00:59:50Guest:Do you have an agent?

00:59:52Guest:I eventually got an agent, yeah, who's out of the business now.

00:59:58Guest:But it was the Smith-Friedman Agency.

01:00:02Guest:They were one of those mid-level agencies.

01:00:05Guest:And Susan Smith ran the agency with Andy Friedman.

01:00:11Guest:And so, yeah.

01:00:14Guest:But they signed me and Tom as writers because they'd read –

01:00:17Guest:Through a friend of ours, they actually got one of our scripts and liked it, and they signed us up.

01:00:24Guest:They were a really good agency, but they wouldn't sign me as an actor because I didn't have any credits much, except for in the theater group I belonged to, which was the West Coast Ensemble.

01:00:33Guest:And the woman that ran the agency came to see me do my one-man show at the West Coast Ensemble.

01:00:40Guest:And afterwards, she said, I don't get it.

01:00:42Guest:I'm not signing you.

01:00:43Guest:What was the one-man show?

01:00:45Guest:I just did all these characters.

01:00:47Guest:Oh.

01:00:48Guest:I did this.

01:00:50Guest:I remember I did a New York character actor.

01:00:52Guest:Like, you know the guys you run into out here?

01:00:54Guest:who never quite made it but they were on airwolf and different shows yeah right sure back in the old days they were in short eyes or whatever it was yeah you know what i mean that play or the movie oh yeah stuff like that but a heavy thing right it's very heavy yeah and but that they but they all like knew pacino sure you know what i mean it's like guys who went to the actor's studio and you know they all knew each other

01:01:20Guest:And a bunch of those guys.

01:01:24Guest:Was it comedic?

01:01:24Guest:It was mainly comedic.

01:01:26Guest:And a little bit, you know, it was kind of melancholy and comedic, you know, because a lot of it was about, you know, people in the underbelly of society.

01:01:39Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:01:40Marc:Cast of characters.

01:01:41Marc:Yeah.

01:01:42Marc:Oh, that's nice.

01:01:43Marc:So you did those things there and you started to get a little traction?

01:01:46Marc:Yeah.

01:01:46Guest:Yeah, just bits and pieces here and there.

01:01:49Guest:And then I, you know, and finally Tom and I sold a screenplay or optioned a screenplay to David Geffen.

01:01:57Guest:For which one?

01:01:57Guest:It was called Hands of Another, but it never got made.

01:02:00Guest:And

01:02:01Guest:But we got $10,000, you know.

01:02:04Guest:Man, that's pretty good.

01:02:05Guest:And back then, that sounds like nothing now.

01:02:08Guest:And it was nothing then, but to us, it was like a billion dollars.

01:02:13Guest:And so with that money from, you know, that, at least that gave us enough of a foothold to make a living and be able to go out there without having to work at a place.

01:02:26Guest:Right.

01:02:27Guest:You know, we could, for at least a couple of months, we could go out and

01:02:30Guest:threw your apron down and do it exactly yeah exactly and then tom and i uh eventually uh we wrote a movie called one false move that got made and it was a big critical success uh it wasn't uh uh who made it uh rca columbia i think financed in a company called irs media and you acting in it

01:02:51Guest:yes uh me and paxton uh cinda williams and it was um you know a real noir-ish crime drama yeah yeah yeah but yeah we'd written it and and uh i was a second lead of it and and and that was that really got us a name in the business i mean not with the public but with the business yeah you were in yeah yeah and then four or five years later i did sling blade and and uh

01:03:19Guest:And you wrote this, how many movies did you write with that person?

01:03:24Guest:Well, we wrote, see, one, two, three, four, four that got made.

01:03:31Guest:Yeah.

01:03:32Guest:And then we wrote a bunch of scripts together, probably 20 or something.

01:03:36Marc:But he didn't write Swing Wade with you?

01:03:38Guest:No.

01:03:39Guest:No, I wrote that one and a script called Daddy and Them that I did right before All the Pretty Horses by myself.

01:03:46Guest:And then...

01:03:47Guest:He still makes a living writing scripts, rewriting script doctor stuff.

01:03:55Guest:He's also a novelist.

01:03:56Guest:He just has a new novel coming out soon.

01:04:00Marc:And you guys are still pals?

01:04:01Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:04:02Marc:So when do you think, because I see that you did a lot of weird little movies, but you also did, like you were in Tombstone, and you had bit parts and Decent Proposal and stuff like that.

01:04:13Marc:But Swingblade was really the one, huh?

01:04:16Marc:Yeah.

01:04:17Marc:Oh, absolutely.

01:04:18Marc:Yeah.

01:04:19Marc:Oh, that's right.

01:04:19Marc:Duvall was your dad.

01:04:21Marc:Yeah, he played my dad in it.

01:04:22Marc:Yeah.

01:04:23Marc:Like he had that, like there was a vibe to it.

01:04:25Marc:Like, you know, like that documentary, My Brother's Keeper.

01:04:27Guest:Do you ever see that?

01:04:28Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:04:29Guest:Right.

01:04:30Marc:Yeah.

01:04:30Marc:Like, you know.

01:04:31Marc:Yeah, sure.

01:04:32Marc:You know, man, like, because like I remember like that, you know, the old house where shit was just not right.

01:04:39Marc:Yeah.

01:04:39Marc:Furniture wasn't right.

01:04:41Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:04:42Marc:Were you drawing from something like from your past?

01:04:45Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:04:46Marc:Yeah, that's Arkansas?

01:04:47Guest:Yeah.

01:04:48Guest:Yeah, there was a lot of that that I either was around or heard about or whatever.

01:04:54Guest:I mean, not based on a story, but just some of the incidents.

01:05:00Guest:I mean, the character is based on two or three different people put together, like the voice, the body language, different things.

01:05:07Guest:Yeah.

01:05:08Marc:You got right into it, too, and you can still do that.

01:05:10Marc:I mean, you still got that thing.

01:05:11Marc:That's why I was trying to pick your brain about craft in terms of, like, how do you lock in like that?

01:05:19Marc:I mean, because you still do it.

01:05:20Marc:Like, even in this, you know, in Goliath, which is not as extreme a character, but he's a character, you know, and you got to lock in, and the emotional range is all very present.

01:05:30Marc:And, like, in the weird, the, what was that one you did?

01:05:35Yeah.

01:05:35Marc:Simple Plan.

01:05:36Guest:Oh, A Simple Plan.

01:05:37Guest:Yeah, that was with Paxton and Bridget Fonda.

01:05:40Guest:Sam Raimi movies.

01:05:41Guest:Sam Raimi directed that.

01:05:42Marc:But, you know, that was another one where your character wasn't you, man.

01:05:44Marc:It wasn't you.

01:05:45Guest:Right.

01:05:46Guest:I was playing Paxton.

01:05:48Guest:I really was.

01:05:49Guest:Really?

01:05:50Guest:Yeah.

01:05:50Guest:And he didn't know it, because Bill never knew that he was that much of a big old teddy bear sheepdog, you know, people, you know.

01:05:58Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:05:59Guest:And he...

01:06:02Guest:after i think somebody told him that because then he said hey man i'm just going to play you and i'm like oh okay and so we were kind of both trying to be each other's brother you know really and i so i just played that character kind of like paxton was in in life you know he was just a good-hearted guy you know and uh

01:06:23Guest:So that was one of my favorites.

01:06:24Guest:I loved Simple Plan.

01:06:26Guest:I love that movie.

01:06:27Guest:A Man Who Wasn't There.

01:06:29Guest:I did with the Coen Brothers.

01:06:30Marc:Yeah.

01:06:30Guest:It's another one of my favorites.

01:06:31Marc:I love the fucking gift.

01:06:33Guest:Oh, yeah, the gift.

01:06:35Guest:Yeah, it's based on my mom, kind of, yeah.

01:06:37Marc:She was a psychic?

01:06:39Marc:Yeah.

01:06:39Marc:Man, it's like it's a, that movie, there were scenes in that movie that I can't get out of my head, you know?

01:06:46Marc:Right.

01:06:47Marc:With Rabisi's character.

01:06:48Marc:You know, that whole Blue Diamond, that storyline?

01:06:51Marc:Sure, yeah.

01:06:51Marc:Too much, dude.

01:06:52Guest:Well, that was real, yeah.

01:06:54Guest:It was real?

01:06:54Guest:That was real from my childhood, yeah.

01:06:57Guest:The part that Giovanni played was when Tom and I were first writing the script, that was the part that I was going to play.

01:07:03Guest:Yeah.

01:07:04Guest:But then, by the time we got that movie made, because it had been around a while, I was off to do other things.

01:07:10Marc:What do you mean was real from your childhood?

01:07:13Guest:Well, that character existed.

01:07:15Marc:You knew him?

01:07:16Marc:Yeah.

01:07:16Marc:A guy from the town?

01:07:19Marc:Mm-hmm.

01:07:19Marc:Oh, my God.

01:07:20Marc:And Rubizzi just acted the shit out of that thing.

01:07:23Guest:He did.

01:07:23Guest:He did great.

01:07:24Marc:God damn.

01:07:25Marc:And Ramey, he directed that too, huh?

01:07:27Guest:Yeah, Sam did that too.

01:07:28Marc:Man, so in talking about that launch, that transition, because I hear from what we talked about before that you see yourself a certain way, but obviously the world sees you differently because of your celebrity and your job.

01:07:44Right.

01:07:44Marc:So when you transition from kicking around, writing a script here and there in Swing Blade and awards talk and everything else, and you tell me you're uncomfortable going to things like I would imagine the Oscars, how do you handle it, dude?

01:08:02Marc:I'm sorry I'm using Doodle.

01:08:04Guest:That's all right.

01:08:05Guest:I do the same thing.

01:08:08Guest:But I have a...

01:08:11Guest:a really bad sort of case of obsessive compulsive disorder and anxiety disorder and all these things, you know.

01:08:19Guest:Right.

01:08:20Guest:And so I don't do well.

01:08:23Guest:And people think I'm this really friendly social guy.

01:08:26Guest:Right.

01:08:27Guest:And to tell you the truth, and with fans and stuff, I'll stand and sign stuff for them all day long, and it doesn't matter.

01:08:35Guest:I'm all for it.

01:08:37Guest:Yeah.

01:08:37Guest:Because those are the people that put shoes on my kids, you know what I mean?

01:08:40Guest:Sure, right.

01:08:41Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:08:41Guest:You owe it to your fans.

01:08:42Guest:I believe that.

01:08:43Guest:Yeah.

01:08:44Guest:And I don't get that nerved up around people like that.

01:08:48Guest:It's...

01:08:49Guest:Unless it looks like somebody might shoot me.

01:08:53Guest:Does that happen?

01:08:54Guest:Well, I mean, every now and then you get a stalker or something.

01:08:58Guest:But, well, I'll put it to you this way.

01:09:00Guest:When I go to a big party that I have to go to because it's time, and I love a lot of these folks.

01:09:06Guest:There's some really genuinely good people who are big deals in this business.

01:09:11Guest:Jerry Bruckheimer is just a great human, you know, and he and his wife are great people.

01:09:18Guest:And they're always kind to me.

01:09:20Guest:They'll invite me to things that I probably have no business at.

01:09:23Guest:But for me, going to a party that, say, Jerry Bruckheimer's hosting is like going to Prince Charles' house to me.

01:09:34Guest:I feel so out of place and so nervous that...

01:09:39Guest:I think it's why I ramble a lot, because I'll talk a lot, but I'm naturally shy.

01:09:47Guest:I think I do it because if I'm quiet, I start to get really nervous.

01:09:54Guest:So if there's a lull in the conversation, I start looking at the ground kicking rocks.

01:09:58Guest:I don't know what to do, you know what I mean?

01:10:01Guest:And I have a lot of stand-up, not a lot, I have a handful of stand-up comic friends, right?

01:10:06Guest:Who?

01:10:07Guest:Like Rick Overton.

01:10:08Guest:Oh, yeah, sure.

01:10:09Guest:You know, Ron White, guys like that that I've known over the years.

01:10:13Guest:And I actually remember Monty Hoffman.

01:10:16Guest:Yeah.

01:10:16Guest:Monty passed away not long ago.

01:10:18Guest:Yeah.

01:10:18Guest:And I used to know him years ago.

01:10:20Guest:And I've talked to them about it before, about how, you know, your whole job is to get up there and be self-deprecating a lot of times.

01:10:28Guest:Talk about what a piece of shit you are or whatever it is.

01:10:32Guest:You know what I mean?

01:10:32Guest:Yeah.

01:10:33Guest:And I kind of feel like that's what I am when I'm in front of people.

01:10:37Guest:and it looks like I'm doing great.

01:10:40Guest:Inside, I feel like the guy who takes care of the yard.

01:10:47Guest:I don't feel like one of the people at the party.

01:10:50Marc:I remember when I saw you at that rooftop.

01:10:52Marc:That was the only time I met you.

01:10:53Marc:I don't know what the hell it was.

01:10:54Marc:It was a publicity thing, and we were on a roof.

01:10:56Guest:That's right.

01:10:57Marc:And you were standing by yourself.

01:11:00Guest:I was in the corner smoking.

01:11:02Marc:You were.

01:11:04Guest:That's where I always am.

01:11:06Marc:But where do you think that comes from?

01:11:09Marc:Have you tracked it?

01:11:11Marc:Would it help you out to track it?

01:11:12Marc:Or you just think it's a mental thing?

01:11:14Marc:Was your dad a crazy man?

01:11:16Guest:He was...

01:11:19Guest:Well, these days they would call it abusive, I suppose.

01:11:23Guest:Well, I know they would.

01:11:24Guest:Back then it was just the way things were.

01:11:27Guest:Oh, no.

01:11:28Guest:You know?

01:11:29Guest:Yeah.

01:11:29Guest:But, yeah, I got whacked around quite a bit.

01:11:32Guest:Was he boozy?

01:11:33Guest:No.

01:11:34Guest:My dad was not a drinker.

01:11:35Guest:Just a madman.

01:11:36Guest:Neither one of my parents.

01:11:37Guest:Yeah.

01:11:38Guest:Well, he was just a wound up, you know, tight ass little, you know, English, Irish, you know, redneck coach, you know.

01:11:45Guest:And you didn't make noise when he's watching Ed Sullivan or whatever and watching the guy spin plates.

01:11:54Marc:So you're always waiting for the thing to...

01:11:57Guest:And they say that's how it happens.

01:11:59Guest:They say that OCD can start out because of like when my dad would, it was almost time for him to get home from work.

01:12:09Guest:Right.

01:12:09Guest:I'd look at the clock and I'd say to myself, if I can count to 100 seven times before the car pulls in the driveway, everything's going to be okay.

01:12:19Guest:And you know what I'm saying?

01:12:21Guest:So I think that's where it all started.

01:12:22Guest:And I have memories of it as early as 10 or 11.

01:12:25Marc:So it's almost like maybe this magical work.

01:12:27Guest:Yeah.

01:12:28Guest:Right.

01:12:28Guest:Exactly.

01:12:29Guest:Yeah.

01:12:30Marc:Yeah.

01:12:31Marc:And so it was just unpredictability.

01:12:34Guest:Yeah.

01:12:34Marc:Yeah.

01:12:34Marc:That's right.

01:12:35Marc:And then you'd seek to control it through these systems.

01:12:38Marc:Right.

01:12:39Marc:And it wouldn't.

01:12:40Marc:Right.

01:12:40Marc:But they're still comforting now.

01:12:42Guest:Yeah.

01:12:42Guest:Because you think if you don't do it.

01:12:45Guest:Like people with this stuff, if I get the idea in my head that I got to do something, it's like an itch that's got to be scratched.

01:12:54Guest:You have to do it.

01:12:55Guest:And I mean, I touched a guy, there was a guy with a giant black head on his neck in a supermarket line one time.

01:13:03Guest:Yeah.

01:13:04Guest:and this was a long time ago yeah and i got and it got in my head that somehow i had to touch that thing which i'm a germaphobe so i didn't want to touch it right but i got in my head i had to and so i did and then acted and the guy turns around of course he was an older guy yeah and i went and then kind of tripped over something and looked and dropped a magazine yeah in the line right supermarket and said oh i'm so sorry sir i didn't mean to you know yeah but

01:13:30Guest:But I came up with a way where I could satisfy the OCD and still not get punched out in the line.

01:13:37Marc:Yeah.

01:13:37Marc:In that moment, you're like, this is important.

01:13:43Marc:I'm going to touch that thing.

01:13:44Marc:Right.

01:13:44Guest:So how do I figure this out?

01:13:47Guest:I mean, I laugh about it, but it's exhausting.

01:13:52Marc:I can't imagine.

01:13:54Marc:It's exhausting.

01:13:55Marc:To have those kind of compulsions where you're going to seem crazy to whoever.

01:14:01Marc:What other ones do you use daily?

01:14:04Guest:Well, a lot of it's just geometrical stuff in my head.

01:14:07Guest:Oh, really?

01:14:08Guest:Yeah, that you don't necessarily see a physical manifestation where you could go, hey, what the hell is that guy doing?

01:14:14Guest:Right.

01:14:15Guest:But I do things verbally sometimes where if I've said something and then I'm in a conversation with three or four people and I don't finish it.

01:14:23Guest:Yeah.

01:14:25Guest:They could go on seven different topics.

01:14:27Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:14:27Marc:And you're hanging out.

01:14:28Guest:And 30 minutes later, I'll finish what I said.

01:14:31Guest:You know what I mean?

01:14:31Marc:And they'll look at you like, what the fuck?

01:14:33Guest:They have no idea what I'm talking about at that point.

01:14:35Marc:But were you sitting there like sort of harboring it?

01:14:39Guest:Absolutely.

01:14:42No doubt about it.

01:14:43Marc:I can't.

01:14:44Marc:Can't listen.

01:14:45Guest:You just sort of like... You're just kind of zoned out.

01:14:47Guest:You start sweating.

01:14:48Guest:You're kind of dizzy.

01:14:50Guest:Think you're having a panic attack.

01:14:52Guest:Yeah, it's weird.

01:14:53Marc:So acting on some level has got to be great because there's a sort of context.

01:14:57Marc:There's a control.

01:14:58Marc:There's a script.

01:14:59Marc:You get...

01:14:59Guest:It's like people with Tourette's syndrome.

01:15:01Guest:I mean, I saw a documentary once, and there was a guy who, he was an archer and a theater actor.

01:15:07Guest:I believe he's from Canada.

01:15:11Guest:But he would bark and all kind of things.

01:15:13Guest:But then, when he would concentrate on putting that arrow in the bullseye, he was, I mean, just zoned in completely.

01:15:20Guest:And comfortable.

01:15:22Marc:Not thinking about it.

01:15:23Guest:Exactly.

01:15:23Marc:Not freaking out about something.

01:15:24Guest:And when he was on stage in a play, he said he was fine.

01:15:27Marc:Wow.

01:15:27Guest:But then the rest of the time, see, idle time is not good for that kind of person.

01:15:32Marc:Right, because like, especially just this sort of, I would imagine like that different degrees of it would tend towards agoraphobia, like, you know, just the idea of like just going outside.

01:15:43Marc:Absolutely.

01:15:43Guest:I've got some of that.

01:15:44Guest:My mom was agoraphobic.

01:15:46Marc:Really?

01:15:47Guest:In her last 20 or so years.

01:15:49Guest:Yeah.

01:15:51Guest:And I've got a touch of it.

01:15:53Guest:I think my agoraphobia, though, was directly related to fame and also when the social network started really coming along.

01:16:03Marc:The social networking platforms?

01:16:05Yeah.

01:16:05Guest:Only because I got a – well, with so much criticism, like I'm a weakling.

01:16:15Guest:I can't take – I mean, constructive criticism I'm all for.

01:16:20Guest:Right, but just attacks.

01:16:21Guest:I can't take, you know, some dick just saying, you know, why is this guy doing – you know, whatever.

01:16:26Guest:Right.

01:16:27Guest:You know, or if they, you know, attack your family or your looks or whatever like that.

01:16:32Guest:I mean, look, here's the thing.

01:16:33Guest:All I want to say to fans or not fans, guys that hate me or whatever they call people, trolls or whatever, I just want to say I'm an insecure, dyslexic, obsessive compulsive guy who has panic attacks and is not comfortable in his own skin.

01:16:51Guest:I don't feel like I fit in.

01:16:54Guest:I'm a mess.

01:16:56Guest:I love my children and I stay home.

01:16:59Guest:And so please, for God's sake, don't give me some more shit.

01:17:06Guest:So I think I just kind of went inside because, you know, I think artists in a lot of ways have become afraid to stick their neck out of the cave because they get their head chopped off.

01:17:15Marc:There's no way to, you know, there's always a way into you now.

01:17:19Guest:But, you know, it's like, obviously, you know, the whole the Internet and a lot of this stuff is helpful.

01:17:25Guest:I mean, it's really a thing.

01:17:28Guest:And there are great things are doing medicine, all kinds of things.

01:17:32Guest:But it's like anything that's ever been invented.

01:17:35Guest:I mean, yeah.

01:17:36Guest:I remember the History Channel had the 100 most important inventions of all time.

01:17:41Guest:Right.

01:17:42Guest:And they would show like, you know, 20 of them at a time over five episodes or whatever.

01:17:47Guest:I couldn't wait.

01:17:48Guest:I got really into it.

01:17:49Guest:I wanted to see what was number one, right?

01:17:52Yeah.

01:17:52Guest:And it turns out it was a printing press, which made total sense.

01:17:56Guest:I mean, that was the first time there was mass communication.

01:17:59Guest:And with that came good things and bad things.

01:18:06Guest:Exactly.

01:18:06Guest:So it's kind of like the internet became what the printing press was initially, you know, back in those days.

01:18:13Marc:Yeah, but now the fucked up thing is pretty much everyone has a printing press.

01:18:18Marc:Yeah.

01:18:18Guest:some guys some guy's job is just to be spinning that machine billy bob's an asshole billy bob's an asshole exactly yeah that's so easy yeah right i don't know if that guy should have a printing press right exactly he seems obsessed too right oh man so yeah well let me let me ask you something about duval you guys spend a lot of time together

01:18:42Guest:Well, he lives over on the East Coast, but when he's out here, yeah, I see him, yeah.

01:18:48Marc:What do you, like, because now I'm remembering that, like, he barely talks on the swing blade, but he does something with his face.

01:18:55Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:18:55Guest:Like, what do you do?

01:18:56Guest:Like, he bit his lip, or what was it?

01:18:58Guest:Yeah, he just makes a face at me.

01:19:00Marc:Yeah, and there's like, he did something weird.

01:19:03Marc:I can't remember, but like, working with him, because he did The Apostle as well.

01:19:07Guest:Yes.

01:19:08Marc:And I don't know what, I know The Judge, I know he's been in some other movies, but like, what do you learn from his process?

01:19:16Marc:I mean, you have to,

01:19:17Guest:Well, he taught me a couple of things early on that I've never forgotten.

01:19:23Guest:One is there were a few actors that he couldn't stand.

01:19:26Guest:I won't name them, but they were big actors.

01:19:28Guest:And people would talk about this guy's performance, you know, so subtle.

01:19:37Guest:And Duvall used to say there's a thin line between subtlety and boredom.

01:19:43Guest:Yeah.

01:19:43Guest:You know, subtle and boring.

01:19:45Guest:That's how he put it.

01:19:46Guest:And so that there has to be life in you no matter what you're doing and that life has to show that.

01:19:54Guest:But he also taught me that there's no such thing as acting being the underplayed.

01:20:04Guest:He said life is not underplayed.

01:20:07Guest:He said sometimes life is underplayed, obviously.

01:20:11Guest:But he said sometimes it's overplayed.

01:20:13Guest:Sometimes, you know, when somebody says somebody was over the top, I think...

01:20:17Guest:I think the average movie watcher who uses that term over the top, they're using the wrong term because there are people in real life who are over the top.

01:20:28Guest:Sure.

01:20:29Guest:That's true.

01:20:29Guest:And there are people who are very subtle and people that are very quiet and powerful.

01:20:36Guest:Right.

01:20:36Guest:There are all those kinds of people.

01:20:38Guest:And Duvall said there's room for all that in a movie, so every time somebody does a subtle performance, why do they say it's genius?

01:20:45Guest:And then another guy may do something where he's bouncing off the walls, and it may be brilliant.

01:20:51Guest:And that's one of the things he taught me.

01:20:55Guest:Because, you know, over the top, that's not the thing.

01:20:58Guest:If someone does a bad job...

01:21:01Guest:of playing a character and they're they're they're doing a bunch of random stuff for attention and seen and chewing the scenery that's that's one thing yeah but just to be over the top is not a bad thing based on whatever that character is supposed to be oh yeah and and and there are people in real life that are over the top and that sort of help you think about characters

01:21:25Marc:A little bit.

01:21:26Marc:Absolutely.

01:21:27Marc:Well, that's interesting.

01:21:27Marc:There's life in every... What do you say?

01:21:29Marc:There's life in every action?

01:21:31Marc:Yeah.

01:21:32Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:21:33Marc:Because I heard that Gene Hackman once said, I know how to fill myself up.

01:21:37Marc:Like before he would go out there.

01:21:39Marc:Sure.

01:21:39Guest:That's what you got to do.

01:21:41Guest:You have to know... It's... You know, a lot of times actors who are... Like I said, I'm so unsure of myself as a human.

01:21:50Guest:Yeah.

01:21:51Guest:That that's the one place I could really...

01:21:54Guest:pull my power up.

01:21:57Guest:And that's where you really live, right there.

01:22:04Guest:And this whole thing about living in the moment as an actor, that's another misunderstood thing.

01:22:10Guest:Sometimes humans aren't living in the moment.

01:22:12Marc:Sure, they're out so much.

01:22:13Guest:Right?

01:22:14Guest:And you may be playing that person.

01:22:16Guest:Yeah.

01:22:16Guest:So you can't go by all that kind of stuff.

01:22:18Guest:I mean, it's like, I remember the, what was it, the Sid Field screenwriting book or whatever?

01:22:22Guest:Yeah, right, yeah.

01:22:23Guest:And one of the things that said in there was, you have to introduce all the main characters in the first 10 pages.

01:22:28Guest:Well, that's bullshit.

01:22:29Guest:You don't have to do that.

01:22:30Guest:Yeah, you have to do anything.

01:22:31Guest:Yeah.

01:22:32Guest:Yeah, do anything anybody says.

01:22:36Guest:Do whatever the fuck you want.

01:22:37Guest:If it works, good for you.

01:22:38Guest:Right?

01:22:40Marc:but that's but that's tricky isn't it like you know how do you find your way into a guy i mean is there one like let's say like it seems like this guy you're playing alan goliath is is not not too far off i mean he's got some of the same characteristics you do sure but like when you look at that was it something about sleep apnea was it about like which was what was the window into that guy for you

01:23:04Guest:I read the script and it was almost like reading my life if I were a lawyer.

01:23:09Marc:Right.

01:23:09Guest:And so I just go, oh, okay.

01:23:11Guest:I can do that.

01:23:12Guest:Honest to God, I've been known for playing all these different types and different characters and things, but...

01:23:19Guest:with all those characters they're still within a certain wheelhouse yeah so uh you know i what i essentially do other than a couple of times uh i can honestly say only maybe twice in my lifetime did i ever do a movie for money yeah uh where i didn't hate the character i liked the character but it wasn't maybe my first choice you know

01:23:43Guest:And, you know, so when you read a script, you either – at least I do – I look at it and I go, I'm the best guy for that job.

01:23:56Guest:I am this guy.

01:23:57Guest:That's me.

01:23:58Guest:I can do that.

01:23:59Guest:Yeah.

01:23:59Guest:And I've turned down things that would have made a lot of money for me or maybe some more popularity because I'm not a –

01:24:06Guest:I'm not that popular of an actor.

01:24:08Guest:I'm popular with people who like me, but I'm not that popular in terms of the world.

01:24:13Guest:I mean, like, I don't have any international name.

01:24:16Guest:I'm basically a domestic guy.

01:24:18Guest:I'm an American actor, and people in England kind of know me.

01:24:22Guest:Not even the bad Santa movies?

01:24:24Guest:I don't know.

01:24:25Guest:Maybe.

01:24:25Guest:I mean, every now and then I'll run to a guy from Japan who says bad Santa.

01:24:28Marc:But what you're saying is like that, you know, if it's within your range, you can lean into it.

01:24:36Guest:Absolutely.

01:24:37Guest:And so I only pick the things that I'm right.

01:24:39Guest:Right.

01:24:40Guest:And so that also allows you a certain strength, you know?

01:24:44Guest:And my standard joke is always, I've told it to death, but it's just the truth.

01:24:51Guest:If you're doing a movie about Charles de Gaulle, get a Frenchman.

01:24:54Guest:You know, it ain't me.

01:24:56Guest:I'm not going to go and study with some guy named Francois for six months to learn how to play Charles de Gaulle.

01:25:05Guest:There's plenty of cats that can play Charles de Gaulle.

01:25:07Guest:Get one of them.

01:25:08Guest:But if you're going to do fucking Davy Crockett,

01:25:10Guest:get me don't fucking get a frenchman you know it's like because we got plenty of texans yeah we got all kind of texans yeah and we got all kind of new yorkers we got all kind of people from oregon whatever it is yeah so we don't necessarily have to have people from australia and england and yeah new zealand or wherever the hell it is

01:25:32Guest:Play, if I can, William Travis.

01:25:35Marc:Why make it difficult?

01:25:36Guest:Right?

01:25:37Guest:And so, and then, by the same token, we also don't need to go over there and play Winston Churchill.

01:25:44Guest:Good choice.

01:25:45Guest:Gary Oldman.

01:25:46Guest:Let Gary Oldman do it.

01:25:47Guest:Don't fucking get, you know, me.

01:25:49Marc:Yeah.

01:25:49Guest:yeah you know what kind of things have you been offered were you just but like no like but this thing is i guess the question is like it seems to me that your wheelhouse is pretty broad because you're still able to take risks i mean you know monstrous ball was not a walk in the park was it not well none of them have been a walk in the park i mean they're it's always hard and uh some of the parts you get into too much and you really you know it affects you and monstrous ball was a heavy movie yeah man

01:26:15Guest:I was playing my dad in a lot of ways in that movie.

01:26:19Guest:And so, yeah, it was heavy.

01:26:24Marc:And when you came out of it, did it upset you?

01:26:28Guest:Yeah, it affected all of us who were involved in that movie, I think.

01:26:31Guest:I think we didn't quite get over it for a while.

01:26:33Guest:But, you know, it's...

01:26:36Guest:Yeah, I've played different kind of cats.

01:26:40Marc:There's still risk involved.

01:26:42Guest:There's especially risk if you're playing yourself sometimes.

01:26:46Guest:Yeah, I guess that's true.

01:26:47Guest:You know what I mean?

01:26:48Guest:Yeah.

01:26:49Guest:But then again, those are other words that maybe sometimes in the entertainment business I always find funny.

01:26:56Guest:Because people would go, you know, you really take risks.

01:26:59Guest:Or they say, what a brave performance.

01:27:01Guest:Yeah.

01:27:01Guest:You know what?

01:27:02Guest:Tell a fucking soldier that.

01:27:04Guest:Tell a soldier that some guy was really brave when he played Hamlet.

01:27:08Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:27:11Guest:I mean, I don't think there's any brave performance in the entertainment business other than maybe...

01:27:16Guest:honestly, stand-up comedy, I don't know how people do it.

01:27:20Guest:Yeah.

01:27:21Guest:I mean, if you get up there and your sole purpose is to make people laugh, like, instantly, you know, if you just took a shit in front of everybody.

01:27:31Guest:Well, you know, I,

01:27:31Marc:I've been doing it for like half my life and what happens with it is that not unlike getting the skill set, you know how to absorb failing, you know how to absorb a joke not working, but you do build a certain comfort on stage where you're like, well, I live up there, so nothing's gonna happen to me up there.

01:27:50Marc:I know what that is.

01:27:51Marc:Right?

01:27:52Marc:You know what I mean?

01:27:53Marc:Sure.

01:27:53Marc:So, like, if you're lucky, like, it took me, like, 20 years, like, you look at a stage and, like, no, I can't wait to get out there.

01:28:01Marc:As opposed to, like, oh, fuck.

01:28:02Marc:What the fuck do these people want?

01:28:04Marc:Look at that fucking guy.

01:28:05Marc:You know?

01:28:07Marc:But once you change over, you know, it's just, it's like anything else.

01:28:11Marc:It's like, you know, you do your time and, you know, you're not going to be afraid anymore.

01:28:18Marc:Right?

01:28:18Guest:Yeah.

01:28:19Marc:Yeah.

01:28:20Marc:And usually you'll make people laugh.

01:28:21Marc:Sometimes, you know, some nights are better than others.

01:28:24Marc:But like when you're like Ron White, you know, bad night is just going to be like, I didn't get, you know, they weren't laughing all the time.

01:28:31Marc:Right.

01:28:31Marc:Exactly.

01:28:32Marc:Or they weren't laughing at this level.

01:28:34Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:28:34Marc:Right.

01:28:35Marc:So Ron on a shitty night is going to get pretty good laughs all the way through.

01:28:40Guest:All he has to do is walk out there and pour his glass of scotch and he's in.

01:28:45Guest:Yeah.

01:28:45Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:28:45Guest:Because you've just sat down in a bar with Ron White.

01:28:50Guest:I mean, so that's kind of what it is.

01:28:52Guest:One of the funniest things I ever heard, a couple of the funniest things I ever heard in my life were from Ron.

01:28:57Guest:And one was he was he flew from like Flagstaff to, you know, Phoenix or something like that.

01:29:08Guest:And he said, because my manager evidently doesn't own a globe.

01:29:12Guest:Yeah, right.

01:29:14Guest:Yeah.

01:29:15Guest:And and the other thing he said was when he was in New York and he got in trouble and he was in there drinking.

01:29:21Guest:Yeah.

01:29:22Guest:And some something went on and the cops showed up and they threw him outside on the sidewalk and got roughed up by a few cops.

01:29:31Guest:And he said, what are you doing?

01:29:36Guest:What are you arresting me for?

01:29:37Guest:And they said, for drunk in public.

01:29:40Guest:And he said, I wasn't drunk in public.

01:29:42Guest:I was drunk in there.

01:29:43Guest:You guys threw me in public.

01:29:46Guest:And one of them said, do you know how many of us it'd take us to kick your ass, for us to kick your ass?

01:29:53Guest:And Ron said, I don't know how many of you it'd take, but I know how many you're going to use.

01:29:57Guest:Yeah.

01:29:57Guest:He's funny, yeah.

01:30:01Guest:He is a funny guy.

01:30:02Guest:I always like hanging out with him.

01:30:03Guest:Yeah.

01:30:03Guest:He's a good guy.

01:30:05Guest:Well, it was great talking to you, man.

01:30:06Guest:You too, Mark.

01:30:06Marc:Glad you came by.

01:30:07Guest:Yeah, thanks.

01:30:13Marc:There you go.

01:30:14Marc:There you have it.

01:30:15Marc:Goliath, both seasons, on Amazon now.

01:30:18Marc:It was nice to see him.

01:30:20Marc:Nice to talk to Billy Bob.

01:30:22Marc:Some vintage WTF posters are back in the swag store.

01:30:24Marc:Go to podswag.com slash WTF or go to the merch page of WTFpod.com.

01:30:30Marc:We've got five posters up there, all signed by me, some of them limited edition.

01:30:35Marc:Enjoy that.

01:30:36Marc:Okay.

01:30:37Marc:I'll play a little guitar if I can remember the thing I was doing a minute ago.

01:30:43Thank you.

01:31:14Guest:Boomer lives!