Episode 917 - Neal Brennan
Marc:Lock the gates!
Guest:Alright, let's do this.
Guest:How are you, what the fuckers?
Guest:What the fuck buddies?
Guest:What the fucksters?
Guest:What the fucking ears?
Guest:What the fucking ears?
Guest:That's the same, isn't it?
Guest:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:You know, it doesn't matter.
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:WTF with me, Mark Maron.
Marc:Still out of town.
Marc:It's a long one.
Marc:It's a long trip.
Marc:I'm out doing the work.
Marc:I can't be specific about the work, but as many of you know, I am in Alabama and it's been lovely down here.
Marc:I've met nothing but nice people, and that trend seems to continue.
Marc:I didn't know if it would, but I've met more people because we're working in different places, and people are generous.
Marc:They're pleasant.
Marc:They help out.
Marc:They have stories, and they talk a certain way, which is actually very –
Marc:Very charming.
Marc:Yeah, I am becoming Southern.
Marc:Is that possible?
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Maybe I'm just, you know, kissing up a little bit.
Marc:Not really.
Marc:It's been a great time.
Marc:By the way, Neil Brennan is on the show today.
Marc:He's got a special out there that he put out a while ago called Three Mikes.
Marc:but you know i many of you have listened to this show for a while know that neil this is the second time neil's been on because neil was on once before and he didn't want me to release it i'll explain it to you later but we had a nice very good conversation this time but uh there is one in the in the in the vaults that will never see the light of day i'll try to give you a
Marc:You know, I'm down south.
Marc:I told you guys I had to go to New York for two days, but I was down here doing the doing the work for four days and I was getting a little strung out.
Marc:I was getting a little hot.
Marc:It was a little too hot out for me, even though the work was going good.
Marc:It was just like, oh, God, it was a little slow.
Marc:I enjoyed the four days, but I had to go up to New York to do to do some press for glow.
Marc:And I flew into LaGuardia, which I don't usually do.
Marc:Usually I go to JFK because I'm flying from the West Coast.
Marc:And I can't remember the last fucking time I flew into LaGuardia.
Marc:But it must have been a regional flight.
Marc:I remember flying there when I was in college and stuff on the shuttle.
Marc:I believe used to go into LaGuardia.
Marc:But what hit me this time really was I flew in and LaGuardia doesn't look like it used to, but you do take a different flight path.
Marc:And that was the airport that I flew in all the time when I was growing up in New Mexico.
Marc:And we would fly back to the East Coast to see my grandparents or see relatives or whatever.
Marc:And they'd drive in from Jersey to pick us up.
Marc:And something just hit me about that.
Marc:I was flying in.
Marc:You fly in from a different direction.
Marc:Something was just happening.
Marc:There was a familiarity that was a little older than recent memories or even decade-old memories.
Marc:I mean, these were...
Marc:40, 50 year old memories sort of hit me.
Marc:And I got off the plane and I walked out and it wasn't, maybe it was specific to LaGuardia because LaGuardia feels like it's actually in the city somehow.
Marc:But I got off and I got hit with that weird, damp, humid coolness.
Marc:It wasn't hot, but it was humid.
Marc:It was cool, but there's a wetness to the air and you could just sort of smell the exhaust and the tar.
Marc:And there was just a hint of ocean to it.
Marc:And it's a very specific smell to New York.
Marc:And something just, my brain just kind of exploded with some familiarity that is as deep and old as my life on this planet.
Marc:And I've never been that excited in recent memory to get to New York.
Marc:And I don't think it had...
Marc:Maybe had a little bit to do with being in the country for four days, but just something sparked up in me.
Marc:And the last few times I've been in New York, I've not been that thrilled to be there.
Marc:I know how to be there.
Marc:I like being there, but I'm ready to leave usually.
Marc:But for some reason, I just got locked into a nostalgic mode or an excited mode.
Marc:I stayed at a new hotel.
Marc:I actually had the moment where I'm like, could I live here?
Marc:Should I move back to New York?
Marc:And it sort of stuck.
Marc:It sort of stuck for the three days I was there.
Marc:I got there.
Marc:I ran into Carly Mench and Liz Flahive, who were also at the hotel.
Marc:They're the showrunners for GLOW.
Marc:Hung out with them for a minute.
Marc:I met Brendan McDonald, came in for lunch.
Marc:So touch base with Brendan.
Marc:We don't see each other a lot.
Marc:We talk to each other a lot.
Marc:He's not only my producer and business partner, but he's a friend.
Marc:And you got to have some FaceTime with your friends, get caught up.
Marc:And then later that night, my buddy Sam Lipsight, the novelist, the writer, the bard, the professor at Columbia.
Marc:Sam Lipsight and I are old friends, good friends.
Marc:And I don't spend a lot of time with my good friends because they're not around.
Marc:You got to spend the time.
Marc:World's on fire.
Marc:Things are coming to a close.
Marc:Things are changing, maybe not for a better.
Marc:A lot of people are dying.
Marc:People are getting shot.
Marc:Shit is not being solved.
Marc:Things are painful.
Marc:They may feel out of your control.
Marc:You do what you can, but you got to lock in with the people you love and focus and feel it because this is it.
Marc:This is it.
Marc:Man, it was just good.
Marc:It was just good to see everybody.
Marc:It was good to see the city.
Marc:Felt like an old friend.
Marc:Did some press.
Marc:Allison, Sedell, and I, and Liz and Carly did a panel for the TV Academy.
Marc:They showed a couple episodes.
Marc:We did a Q&A.
Marc:That was fun.
Marc:Then the last day, man, plane left a little late.
Marc:Fucking, you know, went to Mogador Cafe to have the halloumi eggs.
Marc:Matt Sweeney lives across the street.
Marc:Got him down there.
Marc:Then we caught up.
Marc:And then he turned.
Marc:I haven't talked to Matt in a while.
Marc:He's been on the show.
Marc:Now, this is the fucking thing that blew my mind.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Look, I know things are bad for a lot of people, and I know things are scary for a lot of people, but it's okay to live your life.
Marc:You gotta.
Marc:So I'm talking to Matt, and he tells me, like, I don't always know what my friends are up to, and I know Matt plays with everybody, and he's always got tales to tell about people he's playing music with, and I knew that he went on the road with the Iggy Pop, Iggy's post-pop depression tour,
Marc:Now, here's the thing.
Marc:What I didn't know, I didn't know that he played bass on it, number one.
Marc:He told me that they recorded last year's performance at Royal Albert Hall.
Marc:Now, the reason I'm telling you about this
Marc:is that three people that had been on my podcast were in that fucking band, and they were all separate entities when I talked to them.
Marc:Josh Homme from Queens of the Stone Age, Matt Sweeney playing bass, and Iggy Pop, right?
Marc:So...
Marc:I immediately downloaded it, and on the plane, I watched it.
Marc:And Matt told me what I was in for, in a way.
Marc:I said, what are you playing?
Marc:What songs?
Marc:He said, we're playing that post-pop depression album, but we're also doing most of, if not all of, The Idiot and Lust for Life.
Marc:These are seminal, beautiful, perfect, Iggy songs.
Marc:where he's really using his voice and they're dark and moody and beautiful.
Marc:And I was like, get the fuck out of here.
Marc:You're playing those.
Marc:You're playing those.
Marc:And I watched it, and it was just, it was spectacular.
Marc:I mean, because the band is so tight.
Marc:Josh is such a, like, he's so on top of it.
Marc:It was amazing.
Marc:Like, I mean, it might be the best fucking concert movie I've ever seen in my fucking life.
Marc:And I've seen a lot of it, and I've talked a lot.
Marc:Like, Iggy was thrilled, and he was in such perfect voice, and he remembered, like, why am I saying that?
Marc:Like, he wouldn't.
Marc:He did, he's got to be, like, almost 70.
Marc:And he just nails everyone.
Marc:And the band is so fucking tight.
Marc:And you could just feel watching it that it was one of those nights that were never going to happen again.
Marc:And he looked so thrilled.
Marc:And it was just beautiful because he's doing his Iggy thing.
Marc:They're singing these great old songs.
Marc:Lust for Life, 16, China Girl, Nightclubbing, Success.
Marc:They're all there.
Marc:They're all there.
Marc:Those ones.
Marc:The ones that if you love Iggy and you know the ones I'm talking about.
Marc:But it was just great because somehow or another he's stage diving and about like a quarter of the way in, he's bleeding somehow.
Marc:He's bleeding from his head.
Marc:And you see it and you're like, oh, of course.
Marc:I mean, thank God.
Marc:I mean, that's what he does.
Marc:If he's not bleeding from something, it's not a good Iggy Pop show.
Marc:I don't know how it happened.
Marc:And he had blood on the side of his face dripping the entire concert.
Marc:And he's just...
Marc:so thrilled you could just tell he was having the night of his life and i am watching it i tell you man it's a fucking it's just an iggy concert but i got choked up man i got choked up because i knew that that fucking thing that that was never going to happen again it's worth it it's worth checking that out
Marc:by the way uh i should tell you guys to glow second season is uh premiering on or dumping it's gonna all be there on june 29th i should tell you i didn't tell you that the iggy pop live at royal albert hall post pop depression whatever it is you can you can rent it on itunes or buy it but i loved it i loved it so
Marc:let's talk about neil brennan for a second can we so neil and i i go way back with neil as some of you know neil is a comic some of you know he's the co-creator of the uh dave chapelle show used to write with dave did some movies with him half baked but yeah but i knew him as a uh the kid brother of a comic i started with and a guy that uh originally started his career you know working the door at the boston comedy club in new york and i
Marc:I think that at the time we did the first interview, he thought that I was condescending, and I might have been, that when you meet somebody when they're young, you kind of hold them in that space, and I don't think I afforded him the space to be a grownup in our first interview, and I think that pissed him off, and I'll have to cop to that.
Marc:I mean, I'll have to cop to that.
Marc:We did the interview in 2011, and a few weeks after doing it, he told me to shelve it, and he told me because I didn't show him the respect he deserved, and I don't know if I got it for a while,
Marc:uh because we did we did have a big blow up after that uh but then in 2012 he was on a live wtf from vancouver and uh and we we hashed it out and you know as as i said the problem was really him thinking that i disrespected him that i didn't respect him enough and uh and then i thought that he was i initially thought he was being entitled and projecting this is here's a clip from that episode
Guest:um of us you know resolving the problem the best we could at that time the truth was i didn't feel uh a respect from you and i'm not saying i deserve fucking uh uh fucking rose petals on my feet which you that's where your head goes your head goes this motherfucker that's not
Guest:I was like, I just felt like you've had this podcast.
Guest:You told me you were going to put me on it very early.
Guest:And then you're just having fucking guests.
Guest:And I love the podcast.
Guest:You just have guest after guest after guest.
Marc:This is a different issue.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:It's the same one, though.
Marc:No, but okay.
Marc:But there's a whole layer of like... I'm giving you more insight.
Marc:Right, okay.
Marc:But there's a whole layer of you sitting there going, when's my fucking turn?
Guest:Yeah, well, you should know about as a guy that's tried to get on television.
Guest:Tried.
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Marc:No, just listen to...
Marc:Just, I mean, listen to what he pushes out there.
Marc:This is part of the issue.
Guest:I've heard you talk about club owners who wouldn't book you as, quote-unquote, evil cocksuckers.
Guest:So I know that when you're being excluded from something, you know there's going to be a visceral reaction.
Guest:So don't act like you're magnanimous.
Guest:Like, well, no, they make their choices, and we're all adults here.
LAUGHTER
Guest:You instantly go to he's a fucking evil cocksucker.
Guest:I try to... Wait a few minutes.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:I'm getting better at that, man.
Marc:No, I know.
Guest:So I'm fucking listening every week.
Guest:I'm like, when is this fucking invite coming?
Guest:Never comes.
Guest:Then we finally go on the show, and it's like, yay, did this thing.
Guest:You're kind of like throwing me scraps.
Guest:The biggest...
Guest:yeah i guess so was that big popular i guess no it's fucking insanely popular way beyond where it should be popular if you hadn't known me as a as a fucking little kid as like a 17 year old kid you'd have more uh like abstract respect for me so i felt like i was i was uh i had to i had to uh somehow overcome our origins of our relationship
Marc:But you were a dick of a kid.
Marc:I mean, it wasn't like I was like, oh, there's that cute guy that I used to like so much.
Marc:I mean, you were a, you know, like advocate.
Guest:Who didn't you think was a dick, though, in the 90s?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, the list is, like, it's a fucking lot of dicks and, like, three good people.
Guest:And I can't even remember them, apparently.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Three good people, most of whom he married.
Marc:Well, okay.
Marc:I can take it.
Marc:I can take it.
Marc:Out of every, I've never, I've done 250 of these fucking shows.
Guest:How many of the people did you think were dicks at the beginning of the interview?
Marc:Most of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I don't know.
Guest:That's the arc of the show.
Guest:This person is a dick.
Guest:Please welcome so-and-so.
Guest:No.
Guest:Then by the end you go, you know what?
Guest:You're not a dick.
Guest:And then, but you go, but next week's guy, total dick.
Marc:Applause breaks.
Marc:There's got to be some truth to it.
Marc:No, I'm taking hits for everybody.
Marc:That was that, but this is this.
Marc:Neil and I since then even have gotten closer sometimes, but we have a mutual respect.
Marc:We have a way of communicating.
Marc:It was right for him to set me straight for sure.
Marc:Also, I do want to mention that Neil is embarking on a national stand-up tour called Here We Go with dates nationwide to the end of the year.
Marc:For ticket and venue info, go to neilbrennan.com.
Marc:And also, there's a lot of conversation in this talk about Neil's Netflix special from last year, Three Mics, which you can still check out and you should.
Marc:If you don't know the concept, he had three microphones set up, one he used for one-liners, one he used for regular stand-up, like a regular stand-up set, and one he uses as sort of a confessional mic, personal stuff.
Marc:It's pretty brilliant.
Marc:It's worth watching.
Marc:And this is me and Neil Brennan.
Marc:This is actually from the old garage.
Marc:But it's a great talk.
Marc:So here we are.
Marc:We're back.
Marc:We're back again.
Marc:I already feel like our tone is better.
Guest:Yeah, no, I completely agree.
Guest:That's why I wanted you to eat the last one.
Guest:Let's wait a few years.
Guest:Let's both develop as people, as artists, accomplish some things that are nagging at us.
Guest:What did you say to me the other night?
Guest:It was resonant, but I don't quite remember.
Guest:I said it's nice...
Guest:To see you get successful enough to do act outs on stage.
Guest:Oh, that's basically.
Marc:Oh, no, no, no.
Marc:I mean, when he said about talking to you, he said, like, I'd like you to talk to me.
Marc:Like, you know, as opposed to maybe whatever idea of me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which is very difficult to shake.
Marc:right early idea of somebody is very difficult to say because you knew me as an 18 year old doorman at a comedy club i know but but i think i was thinking about it and i and i i don't i i don't necessarily think that was all of it i think that you know we both had an attitude i don't think that i necessarily was putting you there i knew what your successes were but i you know you know you had this other side of me being the guy who knew you as a doorman
Marc:Yes, so I was paranoid.
Marc:And you had something, and you were going to be like, this fucking guy.
Marc:He doesn't have any respect for my journey.
Marc:Fucking another dad.
Marc:Another dad in the world.
Guest:Yes, another dad to which you had no...
Guest:generosity of spirit about because you are on the same track and you would criticize me for dad shit it's like buddy yeah you're you got the same thing how are you shitting on me about it when you're literally we're in the same swamp well I but my like I watch your special and the difference between you know my dad and your dad is my dad was insanely needy
Marc:It was not a one-sided shit show.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It was a shit show and then contrition and then sadness and then sucking me back in, just obliterating my boundaries and just absorbing my sense of self.
Guest:That's a different thing.
Guest:Different narcissism.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My dad had the added bipolar thing.
Marc:So he was narcissistic, but then he'd go completely into the darkness and
Guest:And then was it up to you to sort of rescue him or he would become contrite?
Marc:I used to do a bit about that, about how that's how I started doing comedy.
Marc:My mom would say, your dad's still in bed.
Marc:Why don't you go up and make a laugh?
Marc:You're the only one that can make him laugh.
Marc:Oh, fuck.
Marc:Oh, that's cute.
Marc:But you've gotten better.
Marc:Since I last talked to you?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:This special was, we can start from there because, you know, it is an interesting format and it seemed to work.
Marc:You balanced it.
Marc:But isn't there part, so you avoided the negative parts of doing a one-man show.
Marc:being maudlin well just you know just that narrative where it's like i you know i don't have to be funny this is honest yeah yeah and the funny should all be resonant with the emotional journey we're taking so you were able to avoid the the weight of that yes but it's a trap to me because i don't i think it's like uh
Guest:It makes the shows not that good.
Guest:Or maybe they're good, but they're not very funny.
Guest:It just seems like a trick.
Marc:Well, yeah, and they're not around anymore.
Marc:I think it was a way for people to sort of showcase the whole spectrum of who they are.
Marc:And it's also a way for stand-ups who are not succeeding or they've done everything they could stand-up-wise.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:So now it's sort of like maybe I need to infuse more of my sadness into this.
Marc:So people really know me.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And a lot of them were just so sort of like weighty.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like, you know, rough.
Guest:There was a period in the mid to early 90s where it's like everyone tried their hand at it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I still think Colin Quinn has a resentment against me for something I said to him many years ago.
Marc:Even before he put me on Tough Crowd and stuff, because I always felt the tension, but there was one time when he was doing his first one-man show, I was at the cellar sitting with somebody.
Marc:And he stopped at the table and he said he was doing this one-man show, and I was like, yeah, you can't hack it on the road anymore, huh?
Marc:And I remember he just looked at me and, like, bit his knuckle and says, you don't know me well enough to say that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think that was it.
Marc:That was it for me and Colin, for life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Can you see that?
Guest:Yeah, sometimes that's all it takes.
Guest:Just one thing, man.
Guest:I know.
Marc:I know.
Guest:That's your strength.
Guest:That's your really, that's your gift.
Guest:I can't do that.
Guest:You can end it in one, it's like a game show where, like, I can end this relationship in one sentence.
Yeah.
Guest:Give me a second.
Guest:Let me get a little information about you.
Marc:Okay, I think I'm ready.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I guess I did do that.
Marc:But when you were working on that thing, so one mic's the jokes, and that was interesting, too, because the one-liners, they're all great, but because of the way you've evolved as a comic, you don't really do that type of joke.
Guest:No.
Guest:They were tweets, basically.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:They were just good tweets.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They were tweets, and I was like, I can't.
Guest:You know, if you have an act and you're building out a hunk, an area, then you'll go like, hey, there's a one line I can throw in there.
Guest:They didn't match with anything.
Guest:So it was like, I had all these excess things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I had stand up.
Guest:And then I was like, and then there's also shit that if you listen to like the moth or whatever.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you go, oh, I feel like I could do that.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:But you didn't feel like you could integrate it into stand-up?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:Because I don't think the stories are joke enough.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think it's too sad.
Guest:They're a little too sad or slash real for a club.
Guest:Right.
Guest:For a late Friday show.
Guest:Not for me.
Guest:No, I think they are.
Guest:I think that they are sad.
Guest:I mean, your stuff with even your dad or your tension with relationships, there's always a lightness to it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I wanted to not be light.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I wanted to not be light.
Guest:I wanted to be like, I wanted to be like, I remember I took an acting class once and the guy was like, you have to be realer.
Guest:And I was like, I will be so sad that this theater will collapse.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was like, try it.
Guest:And I did it.
Guest:And the scene was great.
Guest:And I was like, okay.
Guest:All right.
Guest:So I wanted to do the thing that I didn't want to show people.
Guest:That's what I wanted to do.
Guest:I wanted to show parts of myself that I was like, these are not for public consumption.
Guest:What's the worst thing I can say about myself?
Guest:Starfucker.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Let me cover that.
Guest:And why am I doing that?
Guest:And shit like that.
Guest:Or depression.
Guest:Or things that I didn't want to reveal.
Guest:I was like, those are the things that are worth revealing.
Guest:Because they're...
Guest:there's probably a reason why I don't want to.
Guest:And I'd like to talk about why.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And to what end for yourself or did, you know, ultimately, I mean, the special has been out a while and we're a little late on this, but it sort of lives forever on Netflix or as long as they keep it up there.
Marc:But are you finding that those parts of the special where you shared family dynamics, depression, your own shortcomings, are you getting feedback along the lines of like,
Guest:Like people, the general feedback is at first I didn't want that stuff.
Guest:And by the end, I wanted it more.
Marc:It was funny because the applause, like every time you go to the one-liners, they'd be like, oh, thank God.
Guest:Oh, fuck.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And it was like literally like, and then you get to the standup and you're like, oh, fuck enough with the glib.
Guest:Do something.
Guest:Like it really was like you would get tired of the thing.
Marc:by the time you got to it.
Marc:The one hand you played was that you definitely saw who you are as a persona and who you are comfortably talking about real emotional stuff and then just the detachment from the one-liners because the writing's good.
Marc:Anyone could read those and get a laugh.
Marc:Probably get a laugh.
Marc:I think it's brave but it's also kind of weird
Marc:That, like, right when you go from telling the sad stories, that also, and, you know, they're touching, you know, they move me.
Marc:I choked up a couple times.
Guest:But when you go... See, the way you just said that felt like I defeated you in some way.
Guest:They touch me, whatever.
Marc:But are you going to talk to me like you do in the middle mic?
Guest:No.
Guest:I've always wanted to talk to you like the middle mic, Maren.
Guest:I've always been ready for, I've been standing here waiting to talk to you like two hurt people.
Marc:Okay, so let me tell you my issue then, why that tone you mistake as being condescending or dismissive.
Guest:I guarantee you 90% of the audience who just heard that, rewind it.
Guest:Tell me that wasn't condescending.
Marc:But knowing where you are, now let me tell you what I just told you about my father, who was also depressive, and now I know you were depressive.
Marc:I didn't know that.
Marc:So when I feel that, which I have, I'm an empath for that shit.
Marc:So when I get around people that are innately depressive, I go into self-protection.
Guest:there's no got it because like it'll just sink me it's a trigger yes so it's not even a trigger well that's interesting that you didn't sense that that you didn't sense that i was a depressive no i didn't that's fucking really that's fun that goes to that cold board superior no that well that's well well that's what that's what i always sense and that's what the problem was yeah is that like if you were a little more weepy you know i can't
Marc:I don't know how you didn't cry in the fucking middle mic.
Guest:That was because I couldn't.
Guest:Because you might not stop?
Guest:Because the show would have.
Guest:I did it once that way and it was hard.
Guest:It's really hard to come back from crying.
Guest:From not talking about emotion in a controlled way.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:To actually experiencing the emotion.
Marc:Dude, I got on stage at Carnegie Hall and I literally had to stop for a second because I was crying just because I was opening.
Marc:I was on stage at Carnegie Hall.
Marc:Yeah, I'm sure.
Marc:And it took me an hour to get them, I think.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I bet.
Marc:They all knew me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But yeah, but I think that innately what I do is like, because, you know, I don't want to get choked up either.
Marc:Two depressives together, you know, and I'm not willing to call myself a depressive.
Marc:I don't know that I am.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:you don't think i don't think you are i'm anxious yeah anxiety problems and i'm defensive but but i think more than condescending it's okay i can give you a compliment that was very moving i found myself uh touched i related to it right and uh you know it choked me up a little bit and uh you know i was i was uh impressed and happy and proud of you thank you yeah that's all i wanted that's all i wanted thanks for coming by
Guest:I should get out of here.
Guest:You validate.
Marc:So where was I going with the crying thing?
Marc:So you did it a couple of times where you did.
Guest:And you just can't even at the end of the show.
Guest:The when I do the cop one liner and then I get applause and everybody standing over and all that stuff.
Guest:And I know the interesting thing was I would get standing ovations when I first started doing it and I would just go like I got to get the fuck out of here and get off stage and then someone was like you have to take that standing ovation which I didn't realize like you have that's not for you.
Guest:that's for them to talk to you, which is like, okay, that's an interesting thing.
Guest:Even if you look at the... I'm getting a standing ovation on Netflix, and there's zero joy across my face because I'm still fucked up from four minutes before telling this really heavy story.
Marc:But do you find that... One of my problems is that...
Marc:from having the similarities we have is I'm not great at experiencing joy or letting- Yeah, if at all.
Marc:Right, or letting love in or trusting it or I don't know.
Marc:I've gotten better at being open and I can feel it.
Marc:And I guess because I'm getting older that my emotions, they become harder to keep in and I don't know why I'm keeping it in.
Marc:But that's a real issue.
Guest:It's like, if I'm not gonna do this now- It's the biggest issue.
Marc:To me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:If I'm not going to let these things happen now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When, when, when.
Guest:And because.
Marc:If not now, when.
Guest:I bet you can relate to the idea that you've had this external success.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like every, most of your dreams or goals that you've accomplished.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you kind of go, okay, so what was I getting at?
Guest:Right.
Guest:What was I, why am I doing all this?
Guest:To experience some...
Guest:uh to experience joy and you go well i didn't quite get it with that so i don't know if i was that clear on that were you clear on that were you because you say that in the show i've only gotten more clear with it in the last year and that i really feel like oh i'm i that's a good three mics is a good thing and i've done some good stuff in my life and career and like i don't i'm less i'm less like curious about like am
Guest:am i good or talented i'm like oh i'm good and talented so now what yeah so now what what am i getting at like what do i want to experience and now you stop hanging up um uh yeah no but for like what do you do what do you do where do you get where do you find the uh the joy
Marc:Well, I'm with you.
Guest:When you accomplish it externally, then it becomes like, oh, it's cute.
Guest:It was fun when I came in here.
Guest:Cute, again.
Guest:It sounds condescending, but it is.
Guest:Don't take it in a condescending way.
Guest:You were smoking a cigar and playing guitar.
Guest:That's always been my thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I find joy in that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like just standing in a room, an adult man standing in a room by himself, in a garage by himself.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:playing guitar yeah and like you're it could it was kind of resounding in the neighborhood yeah i find joy in that but here's the thing with me it's like there for me the happiness joy thing was was never uh the goal it was relief and i really like that joke you're doing about
Guest:getting married not because of you just wanted to be okay i really love that joke oh yeah yeah yeah fucking such a great joke yeah it was a now i don't remember the joke it just is it like you didn't want i didn't want kids i just wanted to be okay yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah like that's a real i think that's a
Guest:a real force for a lot of people i think that's a the reason why most people do most things yeah is because they want to feel like oh i'm in the pack and i'm not abnormal in any way right and please i'm okay right i'm okay
Marc:I'm okay.
Marc:Well, I'm doing another joke now where that thing I'm saying about how people, maybe some of you came to this show and said, that should be fun.
Marc:That'll be fun.
Marc:I've never said that.
Marc:I've never, ever said that.
Marc:I wouldn't even think it.
Marc:Never out of my mouth.
Marc:My version of that is like, where is it?
Marc:Yep.
Guest:That's correct.
Guest:What do I have to do?
Guest:I don't want it.
Guest:I was just in Chile and they were like, I was in Santiago, Chile shooting something.
Guest:And they were like, let's go to Valparaiso.
Guest:And I was like, no.
No.
Guest:no i don't want to fucking do anything let me just get let me just stay safe in my little corner i have my little thing that i do and i'll just do that i'm trying to do take this to everywhere to chile to tokyo you know what i mean like i just want to feel like your box you're like you're like a cat i mean i'll go out a little bit but but it's i'm not but do you have a good time when you go out
Guest:It depends, but most things I don't like most things, which I think may be a comedian thing.
Guest:Most things just don't work on me.
Marc:I don't like it when there's a lot of people involved expecting me to like it.
Marc:I don't like showing up where it's like, hey, we're all going.
Marc:It's like, ugh, all of you?
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then I got to react to your reaction.
Marc:Like if I decide, like a lot of times if I go with my girlfriend or I decide to go see jazz or whatever, finally go, let's just, well, I got money.
Marc:Let's buy a ticket to the thing that people like.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'll like it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm like, why don't I do this more often?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And then I won't do it for another year.
Marc:Yeah, I have a few things like that.
Marc:Yeah, but it's just the idea of transition.
Marc:It's like when you travel, you know, that sort of converging on the plane, you know, getting to the plane, you know, all that.
Guest:Yeah, and the way you build it up in your head is this nightmare.
Guest:And then if you pre-check, it takes eight minutes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and then once you're there, you're like, okay, I know how to do this.
Marc:Yeah, this is fine.
Marc:What the fuck is wrong with me?
Guest:Yeah, why did I imagine?
Guest:Everything is worse in theory than it is in practice.
Marc:But I noticed with you, and I don't know about me, but I noticed you do this.
Marc:I do this thing because I have body dysmorphia, and I'm always poking at my fat, feeling the density of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I noticed you poking at yours, too.
Guest:Oh, that's interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I have love handles that I find infuriating.
Guest:Because I'm really skinny and I weigh 150 pounds and I still have love handles.
Guest:It's just skin, dude.
Guest:Doesn't anyone tell you that?
Guest:Haven't you had a girl tell you that?
Guest:It's just skin.
Guest:Yeah, but it's aggravating.
Guest:I would have to get to like 138 pounds to not have love handles.
Guest:love handles and even then and then what neil yeah so you get rid of the love handles and then that's where i am with everything now like okay you wanted uh to do a good special and then what you wanted to do what you and then like what are you what am i getting at how old are you 44 so i have 10 years on you yeah
Marc:well sometimes you don't like you know not to speak like some elder but like yeah but sometimes i think that what you did with the three mics and because i know i realized like this is going to be all the specials now with him with the three you know like there was part of me that thought like is that is this going to be the approach but no i think that the attempt was for you to become whole right so an integrated being so you were able to separate these three things and i think the ritual of that will eventually manifest itself
Marc:That you will eventually feel more comfortable speaking openly about things that cause real pain for you and that you'll probably be able to integrate more of that into your regular act and that the one-liners are always going to be what they're going to be.
Marc:But I saw it as a ritualized attempt for you to sort of own your whole being.
Guest:Yeah, I also think it's a ritual.
Guest:Yes, it is a ritual.
Guest:It also is no accident that it's the most successful thing I've done.
Guest:Is it?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I did it with Dave.
Guest:So, like, the most successful thing I've done by myself by a huge factor.
Guest:Oh, in terms of executing it?
Guest:Execution and the way it was received.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's the... So...
Guest:The interesting thing was it made me, it was more about feeling, the bad news was the acceptance from the outside made me feel good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:That's not bad news.
Guest:Yeah, I know, but it's like, eh, success will make you happy and all that stuff, and it's like, well, good.
Marc:but see what something like that though something that you have ownership of like the one thing i noticed about in in where i i'm sort of you know uh splitting off from you on this sort of what next thing is that the one thing i noticed about doing this thing on my own terms and then everything i've gotten since this yeah has been on my own terms is that it whatever the whole was you know there there's the whole but then there's also the the the real issue of self-esteem so
Marc:So the whole, you know, you reckon with that, however, you're going to reckon with it, you know, you know, compulsion, whatever.
Marc:But self-esteem is achievable by doing esteemable acts and also by taking ownership of your thing of yourself.
Marc:So the one thing that did happen was that, you know, I'm better, a lot better in my skin.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like the deeper stuff, the body dysmorphia and eating disorders and like whatever parental stuff.
Marc:But in terms of I don't know that I ever, you know, I think I'm somewhat like you, but I didn't have the level of the success you did to get validation.
Marc:But I really think that like what I started to feel was like I feel OK with myself.
Guest:I think you had, I think this is a very successful thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think the thing, I think you've had more success to get validation than I have.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Personally.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Cause I don't, Chappelle show Dave got all the points on that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you, you made a lot of money and you had the immediate result.
Marc:Like this is only successful because I do what you did with three mics, you know, every day, every week.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In a great way.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So I spread myself out and made, made myself wholly available for the most part.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:You've used more of yourself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that thing of like, I've never heard the idea that you can get self-esteem by doing esteemable things.
Guest:Then it becomes, why is it esteemable?
Guest:In our cases, it's because we made integrated pieces of art.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And we worked hard and we, you know, our talents landed somewhere.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, that like, you know, it has an effect, you know, it affects people's lives in a good way.
Guest:It affects the way people look at you, which affects you.
Guest:I mean, and I do find that a little, not disappointing is the wrong word, but it is, it feels, it feels like capitalist or a little, you know what I mean?
Guest:If it's like that direct and effective, like, oh, people are nicer to you because you did a podcast and
Guest:Now everyone treats you differently.
Guest:It's a bit of a disappointment in human nature.
Guest:I wish I could have gotten that just for being a person.
Marc:They treat me differently, but it's more familiar.
Marc:They're not treating me nicer.
Marc:Certain people who have a relationship with me because I talk to them twice a week, now out in the world, they're like, Maren, you all right?
Guest:Yeah, but that's better than indifference.
Guest:oh yeah sure it's never indifferent sure sure i'm sure it's always there's a kindness yeah and also showing up and listening to people and having to sort of train myself and empathetic listening yeah just by nature you know in here you're a very good interviewer you're a you've done some interviews where i was like boy oh boy that's a fucking really good observation and a really good insight into that person that they probably never heard before or things that i've never heard explained in the way you've explained them
Marc:Yeah, it's all flying by the seat of my pants through experience and whatever.
Marc:But the one thing that I think also that you and I, I don't know that you, because of what you come from, you're a little tight, right?
Marc:A little control freak.
Guest:Yeah, which you never liked.
Guest:You never liked that about me.
Guest:Which, again, why does that bother you that I like control?
Guest:I'm from chaos.
Guest:So why wouldn't I want to be a director and have things just how I like them?
Marc:I'm not judging your choices in life.
Guest:No, but there's always been a little something about...
Guest:Again, Mark, you can take the processor, the Marin processor, the microscope.
Guest:You can point it at people.
Guest:You can deduce things that I'm a control freak.
Guest:And you would judge me for it with no generosity.
Guest:I'm like, well, I wonder why that is.
Marc:I know exactly why it is.
Marc:We talked about it.
Marc:And I, you know, I know like, you know, the ACOA issues and I know that I know, but I know what it is.
Marc:But like for me, they're like, I think it's because what is it?
Marc:And it's not just you.
Marc:Like in the one thing that made me happy about the special is that you were able to sort of as much as you could in a public forum, you know, let go a little bit.
Marc:You know, like, in terms of, like, when you're talking about where you come from.
Marc:Right.
Marc:There were moments, like, that's what the issue with me is, like, I don't know why he didn't cry.
Marc:There was part of me that's sort of like, why has he squared out a few, this kid?
Marc:You know?
Marc:This 44-year-old kid.
Guest:Yeah, because...
Guest:Yeah, but that's the thing is I also like writing.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Like I like saying things.
Guest:I like writing things the way they're supposed to.
Guest:I like precision.
Guest:Like my favorite comedians are...
Guest:all pretty precise yeah you know what i mean like i respect that except for like listed on your wiki page is one of your uh dave just cow is one of your that's very funny i think just cow is fucking did you put that in there i didn't put that in but i didn't have nothing to do with it it said influences no i have because i used to when i was in high school i'd go to new york yeah
Guest:And hang out with Kevin, my brother, Dave Attell, Mike Royce, and Dave Juskow.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And this is in the 80s, and Juskow was fucking funnier than all those guys.
Guest:Juskow was really funny.
Marc:I guess because, like, what it is, what you're feeling again is really, it's just our personalities.
Marc:It's not me being judgmental.
Marc:It's I'm kind of messy.
Marc:And you're not messy.
Marc:And there's part of me that's sort of like, why doesn't he get messy?
Marc:Like, when you're on stage, it's like, he's so, like, organized.
Marc:Everything's precise.
Marc:It's like, I want to see him fucking lose it.
Guest:i do well i mean there's times where i do crowd work and i'll shit on i mean like i can do that but i i also am not my version of wanting you to have joy yeah but that's your version of joy uh do you know what i mean yes that's again there's plenty of times where like the other night i said some really funny shit off the cuff on stage
Marc:oh good it was fun yeah good i'll get you tape uh like it was fun but it wasn't more fun than writing a great joke no and saying it correctly well and also i think there's envy on my part because i don't have i don't know if it's discipline my process is my process and it's it doesn't involve like a joke for me will evolve over six months like they don't
Guest:See, but I would counter that because there are guys like you who go like, I don't write anything down.
Guest:I just go out up there and feel it.
Guest:I'm like, you do it the same way every night.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Whether you realize or not.
Guest:No, I do.
Guest:I do.
Guest:And I'm not saying that in a way of dismissive, but I've heard guys talk about like, yeah, I just go up there and feel it so I don't say it the same way.
Guest:I'm like, you always say the joke the same way.
Marc:Well, yeah, but that's my process.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But sometimes I'm tagless.
Right.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So, you know, when you go up there and when he read it, when he wrote it out, you're like, this is going to start here and it's going to end there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, I'm like, it'll start here.
Marc:And I don't really know what's over here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I know it's funny enough in the middle.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:To hold its own.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'll wait till the thing happens at the end.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I almost feel like there's a, not a danger in, there is a danger in that, in that like, it's also, I don't want to feel like that part of the show is shitty.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Like, cause I don't, cause I'd rather get to, I want it to be good and then I'll add tags to the good thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Instead of like, eh, let's see what happens.
Guest:Cause I don't, I'm not charismatic enough performer to go like, I'll fucking go up there and let them drink in the persona a little bit.
Guest:It's like, no, like these things have to work.
Guest:in on paper well there you go so that's the difference so there you go that is just the way you are you don't think you're charismatic enough to wing it that's what I found a lot recently is people are I've directed a few and worked on a few specials of other people yeah people are really afraid of bombing and getting heckled uh-huh like people that you wouldn't believe are like really afraid of getting some people can't handle it yeah like they just are they don't even want a moment of silence really yeah like people that are really like I don't like no I don't like that
Guest:i don't even like looking down what does that tell you that people have uh people are paranoid and they're defensive and they have they have the worst they think that the worst will happen but i i i can relate to it because there is part of me that's like no every screw should be tight oh yeah because you every on a day-to-day basis when you're growing up you didn't know what was going to happen i had no idea get heckled at any time
Marc:you know where it was going to come from these hands brothers or dad you didn't know who was where it was going to come from the sky below above you didn't know because like like i try to do that but like there's something about my nature where it's like on on more later i literally got i had to deal with something when i walked out on stage there was a woman who was talking to me she was drunk and it was like right when they brought me out
Marc:that's is are you happy that happened I left it in yeah but was it like were you did you had you forgotten about it 20 minutes later meaning like when you did was it like I find there I I like things like I like things that are undeniably you know in the moment that you know because like a lot of us pretend like we're making shit up but when something really happens in the moment and there's a reaction to it even if it doesn't involve somebody else I'm so thrilled that you know that I'm
Marc:that present right you know and that you know it was witnessed and that it happened like a lot of times after doing an hour i'll walk up say i have one line right now in my new stuff that i can't wait to do and i don't even know you know it's just like i'm excited about one piece one line yeah
Marc:But a lot of times when I write the way I write, I think it's part of why I do it the way I do it, is to make sure that I'm engaged and alive, and I'm not just running for laughs, that I'm having an active conversation with me in them and through the audience.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's a different... There's a part of me that wonders, not what's the value of that, but it is the...
Guest:it's nourishing for me yeah the soul thing yeah do you know what i mean like even if nobody ever sees it even if one door guy comes up and goes you did a thing the other night and i'm like oh yeah okay yeah yeah no i'm with yeah i just i again it's because i like crave uh control i guess no i that i i
Guest:Again, but I do enjoy, like, a crowd work thing or something I've never said before that just comes to me.
Guest:That's fucking super satisfying.
Guest:But I guess I don't pursue it.
Marc:But if you go back, you know, like, this idea.
Marc:Like, you know, like, the only thing with my nature with control freaks is that I do have an innate desire to bully them.
Marc:And...
Marc:That's such a weird instinct.
Marc:I just want to see them lose it a little bit.
Marc:I don't know why, because then I can connect with you.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's like, okay, you got your shit tight and it's together, but I want to see what's in there.
Marc:If I don't feel like I'm connecting because someone has healthy boundaries.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, that old thing.
Marc:Yeah, I'm going to keep poking until I wake up whatever monster.
Guest:Oh, yeah, because I see you do that on Twitter sometimes.
Guest:I'm like, what is he doing?
Guest:Where you'll just go and pick a fight with Patton or something?
Guest:I'm like,
Guest:what it what are you haven't done that in a long time yeah no no but i it yeah that to me is like why bring that sort of that just immediately fills me with like bad chemicals that i don't want it just makes me feel like oh that would stress me out so bad i never won when i did that i never won when i did it just stresses me out so badly and that's the thing that you would the party the worst party likes to pursue
Marc:Yeah, the conflict of like starting drama of some kind or shit.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like, I'm not sure why I do it, you know, but but there's certain types of people where like their their control thing is just so like like I don't have access.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I want it for whatever reason.
Marc:I, you know, I want to connect with them or, you know, I want them to see me is probably what it is.
Marc:I want you to fucking register this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I'm going to upset you.
Guest:And that must be the, how has that manifested itself in relationships with women?
Marc:um well that well that that whole thing that becomes more like if i can back in the day where i'm not in that now but where if i met somebody who was equally you know afraid of intimacy but very drama ridden that we you would cause things to cause problems to avoid just like opening sitting there and being there yeah if you're constantly control in contrition or drama
Marc:You know, it feels like intimacy when you're crying and apologizing.
Guest:It's hard to get.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's also hard to get out of that.
Marc:It's hard to get out of it, but it is exhausting.
Marc:One person will eventually be like, I'm out.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But I'm.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Eventually you get out of it.
Guest:I'm saying it's hard to train your body.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:To not do that.
Guest:That's not a relationship.
Guest:I'm doing it now.
Guest:And I bet you fight boredom.
Yeah.
Marc:It's not so much boredom.
Marc:It's more of a sort of like you want to put it on the other person, but it's not them.
Marc:It's you.
Marc:It's not boredom.
Marc:It's more of a sort of like, what is the feeling?
Marc:It's more tension.
Marc:I don't feel like I feel not bored, but kind of like I know I got to step up to this.
Marc:I know it's a matter of unlocking something in me.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:But then what happens is like, do I wanna unlock it with this person?
Marc:Do I wanna unlock it at all?
Guest:That's the thing that I like, that other joke that you've been doing that I like, which is the thing about dying alone.
Guest:Of like the great fear of dying alone.
Guest:And you're like, what's the, so what?
Guest:how is a nurse yeah yeah and it maybe it's better yeah yeah than with your family and all that stuff right and that's the thing of like it's people acting from a place of like i don't want to do anything abnormal i want to feel okay the thing that everyone does is you die with somebody and it's like but you die with a love by the way 50% of people don't die with their love right they die in the you know at work yeah or yeah exactly yeah or the other person dies before them right so
Guest:That doesn't work.
Marc:But I think the thing that we share is this fucking horrendous fear and distrust of loving and being loved.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So so that, you know, why would you want to have someone around when you're at your least controlled?
Marc:When you have no control and you're just so vulnerable and so needy, why would you want that to be witnessed?
Guest:I don't even know what the thing you're talking about, the I'm afraid of love or being loved, I don't know...
Guest:I don't even know what you're talking about.
Guest:If that makes sense.
Guest:If somebody said, Neil, you're afraid of love and being loved.
Guest:I'm like, no.
Guest:What I think I'm doing, I think I'm looking for a connection with somebody that I like...
Guest:I just like being with them more than I like being by myself.
Guest:And I've had that for periods with people and then something happens and it evaporates.
Guest:I'm looking for that long term.
Guest:So the idea of loving someone or not being loving or being tender, I am tender.
Guest:I can also be super fucking cold and dismissive, but I can also be tender and loving and there for someone present and listening and all that stuff.
Guest:So I don't know, but I have gotten to the point with my therapist recently where I'm like, hey, what if love,
Marc:what if a love relationship isn't the goal of my life because i've spent most of my therapy going like i gotta be a better boyfriend lover i love that moment in therapy where you're like maybe it's not gonna happen yeah it's really like but why is that the this is all theoretical anyway i i i have asked the same question and what what what is the benefit of me trusting somebody
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How much better is my life going to get?
Marc:Like, like, again, what is it's even where, what do I get out of this showing my vulnerability to somebody I'm in a relationship with?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But there's also the thing of like, there is a cost.
Guest:to being in a relationship which is uh compromise and uh some level of like doing shit you don't want to do and uh and and what's the benefit but that's my point is that you know in your special you said you know that doing service is supposed to you know get you some good feelings
Marc:But that's the same thing, is that in the sense that showing up for somebody else in an open way, in an empathetic way, and being supportive and loving, or doing it selflessly, is supposed to feel good.
Marc:And it has a history of making people feel better.
Marc:Historically, yeah.
Marc:But when you say in your special...
Marc:My parents were not nurturing.
Marc:They were self-involved, needy people.
Marc:Fine.
Marc:They did not know how to love.
Marc:They would not have said what your father said, which is gnarly.
Marc:But my mother did say to me,
Marc:when you were a baby, I just didn't know how to love you.
Marc:And I'm like, all right, well, there's the puzzle piece I was missing.
Marc:There's a big one, yeah.
Marc:Right, so I get that.
Marc:And then, so what do I have for wiring?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:If I was not trained in nurturing, and I was not trained in being loved by people who were capable of it, and yet they said they loved me, so whatever was coming at me, which was completely manipulative.
Guest:It was something else, but probably not loving it.
Marc:probably not love manipulative and fear inducing yeah that's what love is i'm like you know so so knowing that that wasn't it so all of a sudden i know that i'm a guy that you know was not given love it was something else and that you know i don't trust it and and then i don't really i'm not completely sure how to do it even with my cats i'm a little hard on them
Guest:yeah that my dog when i go out of town yeah my the woman sarah who takes care of my dog gives my dog a better life than i give him yeah she just there's it's like she's the fun mom she's the fun grandma right and like can't let some eat her food just shit that i'm like no man yeah we don't do that yeah um
Guest:So, yeah, there are times where I wonder, am I, are you, am I, in terms of getting to this, being this loving person, are we just spitting in the wind?
Guest:Is it too far a distance to travel in the time?
Guest:We have left.
Guest:Let's say we have left, even if we started at 15.
Guest:Is there from 15 to 90?
Guest:Is that enough time to get to this hypothetical place?
Guest:Because I don't know that many people that are in romantic relationships that I envy.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:There aren't that many relationships that I'm like...
Marc:yeah i want that yeah but the weird thing about that i i agree with you but a lot of times like as i get older i realize like i don't know what their life is when they're alone you know i know what that guy's telling me you know i know what they do in public but like i don't know what that you know if they're crying or i don't know what they're doing you're talking about the good ones could be bad and the bad ones could be good or you think they're mostly bad and the good ones
Marc:No, I just think that we don't know.
Marc:And what we talk about with our friends is blowing off steam a lot of times.
Marc:And how people act with each other.
Marc:When you're talking to a guy, he's like, oh, I gotta get out of this.
Marc:And they're like that forever.
Marc:You might just be the valve and he goes home and he feels great.
Marc:And then he needs you to hear that shit.
Marc:So I can't judge.
Marc:But my question is that...
Marc:What I feel now and what we're talking about is that I know what it's going to take.
Marc:I know what needs to be unlocked.
Marc:And I know there's probably a process to do it.
Marc:Now, what the real question is, do I want to do the work?
Marc:Because we don't know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:We don't know what's on the other side of it.
Guest:Even the process is Freudian.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I think you can track it.
Marc:I don't think you need Freud.
Marc:I think what I just said about my parents, you could say about whatever you were brought up with, and the truth is we've survived, and we somehow came out with, over time, a sense of self that functions and that we can be comfortable with, but we're emotionally hobbled
Marc:because of very cognitive things.
Marc:It's right there.
Marc:I don't need to speculate.
Marc:So I have to do all this work.
Marc:I've got a fucking seven-year-old in me that is pretty obstinate and doesn't trust grown-ups, and that's what's driving me emotionally.
Guest:How much have you changed as an adult?
Guest:Give yourself a percentage-wise.
Marc:In terms of what?
Guest:From the age of 25 to now.
Guest:Just in terms of like my personality, I would say the most I see people change in a life is I find people in 12 step groups maybe change 15 to 20%.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the most.
Guest:That's like fucking people that go to meetings and work.
Marc:Well, that's because you take out this horrible thing, this monster that you were possessed by.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that's 10% right there.
Guest:But it's still like a, and this is an everyday thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You can maybe alter yourself 15%.
Marc:i think that with age and with experience whether you acknowledge it or not and with the sort of like natural kind of you know slowly not giving a fuck about things that used to really drive your life that certain change happens i think there's a core thing that that might not change but i know that you know that once i i arced out on sort of bitterness and hostility and and hurting myself and and
Marc:sort of being self-pitying that, you know, I was able to give back to something, to start back where I did enjoy watching people and getting laughs and listening to people.
Marc:Like, you know, like my heart opened.
Guest:You've gotten a lot more generous spirit in the last five years.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah, that happened.
Marc:And I think that was a return to something that, you know, I stopped when I was, you know, maybe, you know, in college.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, when I started getting my heart broken and started getting, you know, the shit started coming down a little bit.
Marc:I think I just locked in and I was like, fuck you.
Marc:Fuck this.
Guest:Yeah, that's what I wonder about with this unlocking the love thing.
Marc:Also, do you think that we might risk our... Do you really want that kind of potential peace?
Marc:Because it seems to be a choice.
Guest:Here's the thing.
Guest:The thing I was going to say is... With the people that are in good relationships that I know... You can tell before...
Guest:Because they're kind of happy-go-lucky people.
Guest:You and I are not happy-go-lucky.
Guest:You and I are cranks.
Guest:And then people go like, you guys are all comedians.
Guest:Don't you have fun?
Guest:I'm like, no.
Guest:Mostly what me and my friends do is we call each other and fucking I go crank.
Guest:And then they go crank back.
Guest:And that's what we've been doing for fucking 20 years.
Guest:And maybe that's what my life is.
Guest:And there's a part of me that thinks that this dream of becoming a quote-unquote integrated person that's capable of love and being loved is a bit like I'm going to be a pitcher in the Major League Baseball League.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, there's part of me that's like, I don't think it's possible.
Guest:I don't think I can get – or maybe I could get there from here.
Guest:but maybe not, and maybe it's a waste of time.
Marc:Well, I think maybe not.
Marc:Like, yeah, it might not happen, but what is a waste of time?
Marc:Is there some steps that you know about?
Marc:Has it been laid out to you?
Guest:No, I mean, my therapist sort of kind of implied that there's a thing that if I came more often and we could do this thing, but I'm kind of like, I don't know, man.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'm looking for, I'm really looking for like some sort of magic bullet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In terms of that stuff.
Guest:And I don't think it exists.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But fuck.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It would be nice to feel like some, to just be, it's like that line that Jason Alexander says in Seinfeld, like, I just want to be normal.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Why can't it be normal?
Marc:I don't know that anybody is really.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't know that we really want that.
Marc:Yeah, really.
Guest:And how do you balance the crank that generates jokes and how would you do that and be this peaceful, happy person?
Guest:Which speaks to the thing earlier of experiencing real joy.
Marc:Well, to me, it's really, it comes down to like a strange boundary thing.
Marc:Because I think that you, like, you know, you, the way you grew up in your thing was, you know, you had to put, you put armor on.
Marc:Whereas like, you know, I just was a sponge for garbage, you know, like, and I, it all permeated in my neediness.
Marc:You know, just knows no bounds innately.
Marc:So I had to start, you know, slowly understanding, you know, for myself what boundaries are and honoring them in others and try to have them for myself.
Marc:That was something I had to learn.
Guest:Do you respect people's boundaries now?
Guest:You don't feel the need to...
Guest:No, I don't.
Marc:I don't.
Marc:When I'm in the process of creating new jokes and stuff, lately I've been a little snippy.
Marc:I've been saying some shit about people.
Marc:I have a little old Marin behavior, but I know it's happening.
Marc:I'll take a shot at somebody and be like, I'm sorry.
Marc:That was...
Marc:Or I'll talk shit about somebody to somebody else.
Marc:I'm like, what am I doing?
Marc:It's unnecessary.
Marc:And that comes from just the insecurity of creativity.
Marc:I'm smoking cigars.
Marc:I'm going a little nuts.
Marc:I'm trying to get some new jokes together.
Marc:So there's an innate thing that happens when I need to create where I got to start hating on myself about something in a bigger way for me to get to where I need to get to the truth of whatever that is.
Marc:Because in terms of the crank thing, it's like,
Marc:The the thing with other people or with a relationship is like if I'm open, you know And I'm feeling good about myself as soon as someone walks in the room.
Marc:I'm like exhausted.
Marc:Do you know I'm sort of like Now I got it now.
Marc:I got to deal with this Even if it's just hey, how's it going?
Marc:I'm like
Marc:you take on their energy or you just take on their whole thing at some part of that right their whole life force yeah it's it's i think that's a standard codependent problem yeah but like you know i'm okay by myself i'll nap a little more i'll probably jerk off you know during the day you know right great glad good to hear
Guest:but but you know but then then there's that thing it's sort of like no one gets to live like this and i'm like is this a prize did i win you know yeah no absolutely yeah there are times where i go like boy how much better could this be going you know what i mean where i'm like fucking like like cranking in my head right and i'm like what do you what could have what okay right so there are guys that are funnier than you yeah yeah yeah okay yeah
Guest:So what are you going to, so what?
Guest:So what are you going to fucking just harp on that all day?
Guest:So your life is ruined because Chappelle and Rock are better comics than you.
Guest:I'm like, what are the odds?
Guest:You still do that?
Guest:Way less.
Guest:Way less because it's just like, yeah, so what?
Marc:I'm not going to let that ruin my life.
Marc:My thing more is like with you, like, you know, I'm doing this bit that I've had around for a while and I kind of chip away at it and then you have a line.
Marc:I'm like, oh, fuck.
Marc:That was the line.
Marc:Neil got the line.
Marc:yeah god damn it yeah there are that would have made my joke five years ago so much better someone will just beat you to the you know whatever it is that what the line is like guys think that they're a porn is just gonna break out at any time yeah everywhere they go a porn that beat where you like you're in a hotel room and there's a knock on the door you're like here we go here we go here it is you knew it was that you knew i figured it would come to it at some point here
Guest:That really is the fucking level of stupidity in guys.
Guest:But it's like a hotel room thing, too.
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:You're like, yeah.
Guest:When you're visiting a town, you're like, they know.
Marc:You go into these fucking comfort inns, and there's just weird work people there who are doing things at work, and you're just looking around like, this is a swinger scene.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:That fucking absolutely.
Marc:After 1 a.m.
Guest:This place, everyone's going to be fucking and sucking each other.
Guest:It's going to be wild.
Guest:And it's never that.
Guest:No.
Guest:I've yet to see that.
Guest:Never.
Guest:Never.
Guest:I've never opened a door in Hollywood and seen some weird.
Guest:Nope.
Guest:Eyes wide shut thing.
Guest:Nope.
Guest:It's far more human.
Guest:It is.
Marc:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:So when you go back at, like, what have you, like, when you talk about your dad, have you reconciled this shit?
Marc:I mean, like, do you, like, I don't know what you're doing.
Guest:I gotta say, I think, I, I, I, I think about my dad.
Guest:actively very little.
Guest:Meaning, like, it...
Guest:whether it's resolved or not if you there's something pretty clear about hey i don't think you love me and then person going yep you are correct you just go oh this is very clarifying and i don't have to be curious or wonder or question myself or go like but he did love me and it's my the fault lies with me because i didn't integrate no
Marc:but didn't get it yeah so it's it's uh it's really it was kind of weirdly i think help freeing yeah yeah it's the same thing when my mother told me that thing yeah yeah that yeah i didn't know how to love you as a baby it is sort of like it's horrible but you're like oh that explains it yeah it's like when someone you find out the reason you got fired or something or or the reason why someone breaks up with you
Guest:The moment they go, because when you came out of the bathroom, I was like, I'm never fucking that person or whatever.
Marc:But it's more deep than that because it's sort of like, oh, this is why I am who I am.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:In some ways, Three Mikes is like my origin story.
Guest:It's like my emotional origin story.
Guest:It definitely is.
Guest:Comedic origin story of like, this is how it all, this is who I am.
Marc:but i can't imagine just being the 10th i don't understand because like like because i always like i'm i'm not it's not naive but i i realize that i'm wrong when i talk to people in here and just be like so you get along with your siblings it's like what yeah i mean like i mean i've got one and you know we were okay yeah you know but i don't talk to him all the time but having 10 and this idea that i'm just gonna be like yeah y'all good
Guest:yeah it's the yes with the amount of stuff that happens in families and there's like what's the age difference between you and the oldest 16 years yeah so the amount of so my mom had 10 kids in 16 years was your mom good to you yeah my mom like the thing of like i did my best my mom actually kind of did do her best like she doesn't have the deepest well to draw from right but she she truly does like make it she hustles
Marc:Because, like, I know two of your brothers and I knew them when they were younger.
Marc:I mean, I didn't know them, but I got a sense of who they were.
Marc:So, like, you know, Kevin, who's a comic, you know, was just irascibly angry.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And just compressed and quite honestly, a little frightening, like difficult to talk to.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And Danny was like, you know, completely kind of like no kind of just sort of like like when I knew him at the at the strip when he was a bartender, he just he seemed like different than both of you two.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's just sort of like, you know, kind of, you know, maybe not as smart and but but, you know, sort of open in a way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like seem to have a pretty good ability to enjoy life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like not burdened.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not prejudiced.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:By his own.
Guest:Like he didn't he wouldn't make assumptions.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that still the case?
Guest:I don't know because I don't see him.
Marc:You don't talk to him?
Guest:No.
Guest:Again, not like I'm not mad.
Guest:It's just like, eh, we don't have to.
Guest:Those guys are mad at me, which is, you know.
Marc:Oh, they are?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But just the idea of being the 10th kid, I mean, when I've talked to other people like that, there's almost no attention paid to you.
Guest:I was a bit of the mascot, though.
Guest:I was, like, a little wise beyond my years, little, like, cute Neil put a button on this.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Guest:Like, I was, you know, yeah, so I was, like, I was pretty...
Guest:engaging oh yeah everyone the ones that were around were having a good time with you yeah all my brothers and sisters were great growing up they were fucking really all to a person really good older brother and your parents were together yeah until probably the two years after I moved out three years after I moved out
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Then they realized this smoke cleared and they were like, oh, fuck.
Guest:All the kids were gone.
Guest:I'm like, oh, we were holding on for nothing.
Marc:They were holding on for you guys.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Whatever that means.
Guest:So I was sure what a bad relationship looked like.
Marc:But what did your dad do?
Guest:He was a tax attorney.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Like a corporate tax attorney, yeah.
Marc:And a drunk.
Guest:Not like a stumbling drunk, just like three drinks, four drinks every night when he got home.
Marc:Turned into a different person.
Guest:Yeah, transformed into a bully.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And thought he was like, he said like James Cagney was like a guy that he really...
Guest:admired right james cagney character yes yeah yeah in movies which is like okay okay man james james cagney okay but you're you're like stuck at home the longest with him like at that point yeah because he retired and i was just like face to face with this fucking so you had no buffers or fewer buffers yeah and your people are like really get up close with my parents
Marc:So, right, so, like, as the day went on.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Smaller house, more, it was just more, it was close-up magic, as it were.
Guest:It was, do you know what I mean?
Guest:It was, like, prostatigitation, like, there was very, it wasn't a table of ten, it was a table of, like, four.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or a table of twelve, it wasn't, like.
Marc:And he could drink during the day at that point.
Guest:Yes, thankfully.
Yeah.
Guest:His schedule opened up.
Guest:So yeah, he could drink during the day and he would like put, you know, vodka in seven up cans, that kind of thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you just, you just never knew what was going to happen.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And just like, what do you, and yeah.
Guest:Well, you're lucky that you didn't turn out a drunk.
Guest:Yeah, I have – no one in my family is really a drunk.
Guest:I think we all were like, nah.
Guest:That's amazing.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It really is because usually somebody is.
Guest:We have other – we're all – well, not all.
Guest:I shouldn't say all, but many of us have pretty severe anger issues.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But no drunks.
Guest:No drug addicts either.
Guest:That's wild.
Guest:Because it's all that, like, Irish Catholic, like, you know, it wasn't – it's not – you know, we just didn't – no one really drank –
Marc:but that's crazy that's like rare that's like you should be you should be a case study yeah usually you got three yeah out of ten no one's openly gay either or even like seemingly maybe gay anybody still practicing catholic
Guest:uh yeah yeah just maybe for their kids or something like sends their do you have a relationship with some of them the nieces and nephews yeah oh yeah yeah but they're all some of them are like 30 really yeah because they're because my you know but that must be nice right
Guest:I have a better relationship with some of them than most of my brothers and sisters.
Guest:Siblings?
Guest:Yeah, because it's just easier.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It's just like a very clear.
Guest:And it's this thing where I'll do things for them that my brothers used to do for me.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Like get them tickets for shit or send them money.
Guest:It's nice to be able to just like, hey, uncle, I'm a fucking uncle.
Guest:Yeah, my uncle, he wrote over at the Chappelle Show.
Guest:Yeah, he's a fucking comedian.
Great.
Marc:So how, like, we talked about your father.
Marc:We've talked about relationships a bit.
Marc:And, you know, you go to, you know, you do the recovery thing and therapy thing.
Marc:I do recovery, and I've been a little lax on the therapy.
Guest:Yeah, I've been lax on recovery.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:I mean, not, I just haven't been going to meetings.
Guest:Are you in a relationship?
Guest:No.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You took a year off?
Guest:From a relationship?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I haven't been in one in a year yet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Almost more than a year.
Guest:Is it all right?
Guest:yeah it's uh it's yeah i don't it i'm not especially lonely yeah you know i feel like i'm so behind on like these fucking hulu shows there's so many things to read and watch right like i as a the the curse of fucking being a comic you never feel like you're writing enough jokes i don't know that's like ever feel like oh i'm caught up no really never i never feel i don't have that i don't have that same ethic
Guest:Oh, I just feel like I'm constantly like, you don't have a, you don't have a full out, you know, like, yeah, no, I'm, I'm there.
Marc:I'm, I'm there.
Guest:You do have that ethic.
Guest:Cause you've just.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I guess I don't think of it like I got to write jokes today.
Marc:I'm sort of like, how do I stretch that out?
Marc:When am I going to, you know, I guess it's the same thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, but what about like, I think the last time we talked and you talk about it in the special about how this idea, I mean, you call it star fucking, but I think you're being a little hard on yourself.
Marc:I think your nature, uh, you know, to sort of be in the background or, you know, be part of something other person's doing, you know, not, uh, you know, be around the more charismatic person.
Marc:I used to do this thing about how like, Hey, you don't mind if I use you for my battery for a while.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, warming my hands off your fire.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I noticed that that was a dynamic, that I was a draining, needy person.
Marc:So it wasn't the same thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I'd be like, you know, I would, you know, I'd be, I'd talk to charismatic people.
Marc:I'd like be around charismatic people because it would sort of, you know, give me juice.
Marc:Fucking feels good, man.
Marc:Yeah, but I mean, I don't know that many stars and I certainly had the one.
Guest:But even the people that I was doing, Chabelle wasn't a star for the first 10 years of our relationship.
Guest:It was just like this fucking hilarious, charismatic dude.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That I was happy to just be like, yeah, I'll just stand near you.
Marc:Now, have you guys... Because I know that as you evolve into your own thing, have you guys... Are you reconciled or are you at a place?
Guest:Yeah, we're recon... Yeah, I just did a bunch of shows with them.
Guest:I see them a lot.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Marc:We text and... Was it ever a sit-down or it was just time?
Guest:We've never had a specific...
Guest:post-mortem.
Guest:I don't think we ever will, because I think there's a pretty big gap in terms of understanding or interpretation of things.
Marc:Or wanting to talk about things in that way.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He has been doing a joke about me where he's like,
Guest:you know, I'm going to write a Neil reads all these self-help books, but I'm thinking about, I'm going to write one called, uh, why don't you just drink?
Guest:Like, like that's just like, that's like, he, he says like black people don't black men don't need to be emotionally available.
Guest:Like there's no, that literally does not exist in the black vocabulary of relationships.
Guest:It's like emotionally available.
Guest:Like his sister said to me 50, 20 years ago, emotional availability went out with slavery for black men.
Guest:So like the, but having said that, like,
Guest:we have me and dave have like you know we have a significant a very maybe the deepest emotional relationship i will ever have right like my ex-girlfriend used to call dave my my wife right like this heavy divorce yeah unsaid said yeah your anger love like uh-huh
Guest:He said to me a few weeks, a few months ago, he goes, when you're on your deathbed, you're going to think that I was the love of your life.
Guest:No, he wants that, by the way.
Guest:I used to joke that on our deathbed, what I want him to say, his last words would be, Neil was right.
Marc:it's just so funny when guys like get to a certain level of of starness that you know their natural egos you know they don't know that they're getting larger and like you know yeah it's a it's a so they just say shit like that yeah and they're just sort of like they've right you're like yeah that's a normal thing to say
Guest:He actually did say, though, he's like, I told my wife that you're one of the loves of my life.
Guest:So it's like, it is, there was like an equality to it.
Guest:But no, there is a thing.
Guest:I don't think he's wrong.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's a weird, it's a, I think it's fairly unusual.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In terms of two adult men who,
Marc:you know what i mean yeah well i think that's why he doesn't you know i i don't i i have a hard time uh but like i always assume that i have more history with people than i do and more familiarity than i do like i always approach things sort of like oh we're just you know i knew you yeah i know you i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't think
Guest:people you do though I mean I think it's hard when you start when you spend five ten years with somebody in a fucking dungeon yeah in the village I think you know there's certain things that like you know that's the the great thing about seeing old people from New York in the 90s sure sure
Guest:well yeah someone could be literally it's like kevin hart will do an arena yeah and if you go backstage it's still the same guy from the boston or the cellar yeah it's not that different there there is a thing with a little different but not right like night and day yeah yeah uh not like a movie scene where it's like so what have you been doing like you know like this thing where there's a million you know he's getting makeup done or whatever getting some ivy years and you know what i mean like no
Guest:There is a certain element of just like we're peers.
Guest:We're still peers.
Marc:Yeah, but then there's that moment.
Marc:I remember years ago before I was doing well, I saw George Lopez at the airport and we're waiting on the curve and he's like, you want to get my limo with me?
Marc:And I'm like, get you right home?
Marc:And I'm like,
Marc:Yeah, okay.
Marc:So I'm in the limo with Lopez, who I don't know that well, but I know him from campus.
Marc:And he has the guy, they drop him off first at his mansion.
Marc:So he'll take you home.
Marc:And then I'm just sitting in George Lopez's limo going, I don't know that guy.
Guest:Yeah, there are certain things.
Guest:Yeah, like Jets or that type thing where it's like, yeah, that's different.
Guest:But all that stuff gets pretty human pretty quickly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I find it.
Marc:Yeah, so you guys are good.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, what's the focus now, though, outside of jokes?
Marc:I mean, how do you do on the road?
Marc:Good?
Marc:You got a draw?
Guest:I'm about to go out and see.
Guest:I think I'll do good.
Guest:Post this special.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And hopefully I'll do well.
Guest:With a new hour?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I hope, I think I'll do well.
Guest:Yeah, how many cities are you doing?
Guest:probably 20 at this point wow yeah that's good and that's kind of that's the thing it's like I got a pilot that I'll see if it gets picked up but you did some directing yeah I do I direct commercials still oh yeah I like directing commercials it's short term takes like a day or two work really good no movies in the pipeline no no movies
Guest:uh i like work like you do commercials takes good money it's fast it's work with like amazing people yeah that like i wouldn't work with otherwise and right and uh it's like you know stay fairly sharp yeah and yeah but i like again you know it's like what do you want to the good thing about being a comedian is you can just go out and do it you can also just walk your life can be walking around and talking like socrates yeah
Guest:yeah it's the best it's fucking with a notebook pretty amazing yeah it's pretty amazing so like this idea of doing all this other stuff it gets to that question of like for what like what am i what am i trying to induce in myself what feeling am i trying to induce because i find that having a series of some kind i just did a pilot and it was like oh this is so stressful like it wasn't fun yeah
Marc:I understand what you're saying because I relate to it, but it seems that...
Marc:It seems like, okay, so there's this element of we as stand-ups, we do this immediate gratification thing, and it's tight in the sense that we can just go and walk around with our notebook, and when we travel, we have one bag, and maybe the opener's a local guy, whatever.
Marc:You learn how to do that.
Marc:But I keep hearing from directors and actors and people, there's this idea of the storytelling element.
Marc:Don't you have a story to tell?
Marc:Like, like, like I can't separate myself from my creative output.
Marc:I can't say like, I'm going to write a story about a guy named Ralph who works at a copy shop.
Marc:I don't, I don't think that way.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you've had experience with.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I also think that, yeah, I, but I, I think that, uh, I have those outlets.
Guest:I can go to sign it live.
Guest:and write us any week i literally have an open door so like if i have a sketch idea i can go do it there go to the daily show i can get set my like there's i know all these people i can go there i don't just say like i got an idea you want you want it yeah or i'll write it and stay there for the week and shoot it whatever um i did when dave hosted i did when aziz hosted and i find that i don't
Guest:I've done it and I find it fun and satisfying.
Guest:I just find that the gratification of standup is way more direct.
Guest:In terms of the things that I like to consume, I like sketches and I like late night comedy.
Guest:I like monologues.
Guest:I like desk pieces.
Marc:Sure, the stuff that you can do in a week.
Guest:Yeah, I just naturally like that stuff.
Guest:I don't watch any series.
Marc:But you don't got a movie in it?
Marc:You didn't find that by exploring these other elements of yourself and managing the darkness publicly that maybe there's a narrative that has some humanity and emotional heft to it that you might want to...
Guest:i don't see that's the thing is i feel like i told it in the right way yeah you know what i mean like i'm just asking if you yeah no i feel like uh i told it in the right way here's the other thing i movies are you're spending a year or a year and a half on something that may not work i know i hear it all the time i don't know how people do it and and if you're doing it with people you don't know you can just not like them that much like getting a roommate or you're like fuck
Guest:Right.
Guest:And and I just find it's such a crapshoot and it's such a big it really overtakes your life and it can be thrown off by a star or a studio exec.
Guest:It's fine.
Guest:Just these weird things.
Guest:And it's it makes it such a big emotional risk for not much of a payoff to me.
Marc:No, I always think that when I talk to, I'm like, when people are like, I worked six years on this thing, and I didn't get into the festival.
Guest:Yeah, like, fuck, man, I'm really sorry.
Guest:I always point out, like, imagine if you made a movie with a dolphin, and then it fucking bombed.
Guest:You had to go to a fucking pool every day and get the dolphin.
Guest:To be scared.
Guest:Like, just the fucking, you don't even get to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, like, I find that the things I like doing are short-term things with people I like.
Guest:So, I'll work on, you know, Dave's House of Tarant Love.
Guest:I'll work on him.
Guest:I help him rock with his special.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I just like doing short, and I'll write my.
Marc:You helped rock on the new special?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What, with Punch-Up?
Guest:Yeah, a little punch up, but mostly just more like style.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like what he was sort of, what he was doing and... Structure?
Guest:Structure a little bit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But more performance and making the sort of divorce stuff mean something.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Because at one point he was kind of rushing through it.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Didn't want to sit in the feeling.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, hey, man, you got to fucking, you got to do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You got to sit in it.
Guest:Give it...
Guest:And he also has that thing of he's done five hours or six hours.
Guest:So it's like, I know the rhythm.
Guest:I know the rhythm.
Guest:I know the tricks.
Guest:The manic rhythm.
Guest:Yeah, I know the tricks.
Guest:You might want to evolve it a little bit.
Guest:And I think he did a little.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:And you get paid for that.
Guest:yeah but like yeah but it's yeah but it's not just sort of like uh uh it's like that's a service yeah yeah yeah it wasn't yeah it wasn't it was it was based born out of friendship but it was also just like yeah you can give me some money i'm a producer on the special oh good um but uh but yeah like i just like doing
Guest:I just don't want to get super invested in a thing that is a failure because not my fault.
Guest:It doesn't work because of someone else and I can't go, fuck, it was him.
Guest:And also, I find that the way media is now, there's so many shows that unless this thing is amazing,
Guest:you don't even take it out of the barn oh yeah yeah because like how are you gonna find an audience yeah yeah like there's so many out there just out there yeah there's so many people post on you go and you want to go i'm never gonna i i'm happy you're working yeah i really am happy people are working yeah and they're using all their faculties to create this thing and i don't have the time or interest to watch it yeah
Guest:Like, I just, I'm very sorry.
Guest:That's just not my thing.
Guest:And it's a big, it's just, I find it kind of diminishing returns for a huge, you know, doing a series is a huge physical and mental and emotional output.
Marc:And I did one that, you know, that wasn't watched that much.
Marc:And now I'm on one that is watched, but I don't have the, yeah, I'm not, I'm not wearing one hat, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You don't think about when you leave, you just go, I wonder, I hope they got it.
Guest:Yeah, I hope they got it, and like, what time's my call tomorrow?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I got a day off?
Guest:Great.
Guest:Yeah, fantastic.
Guest:And yeah, because I see you get applause from the show, and I'm like, never fucking watching that show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Never gonna watch it.
Guest:My show?
Guest:Glow, yeah.
Guest:I never watched the other one.
Guest:I just don't like...
Guest:I like the comedy I explained and I like documentaries.
Guest:So I'd be way more likely to watch a documentary than I would some of these series.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know what to watch always.
Guest:Yeah, so that's the thing.
Guest:The thing when you do something like...
Guest:You want it to be big because you still have that.
Guest:You want it to be big, but you also want it to fucking mean something.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I put all this meaning into it.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You put a lot of... And the thing that you put meaning into is this.
Guest:I think you put more meaning into this than anything you do.
Marc:Well, sure.
Marc:I mean, yeah.
Guest:And thankfully, you got the right cultural breaks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you got the... And it just landed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's a real... And when it doesn't, you're like, fuck.
Marc:Fuck.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And my comedy too, you know, I mean, those are the things, it was always the thing.
Marc:And they did fortunately sort of feed each other, you know, I was able to build an audience and like, I can, that's the other thing.
Marc:Ultimately this thing, like I, you know, I, I, I love it and it's, it's nourishing to me and I like talking to people and,
Marc:Uh, and it's a, it's a great thing, but like, I, and I know I've gotten better at this, but I can also see, like, I know my last special was the best thing I've done.
Marc:Like, I know it, you know, and I can see that like, cause like it really came down to sort of taking responsibility.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:you know not unlike you do but for me to sort of like all right here's the set like to for me to crunch in on this on my i had an hour and a half and i needed 70 minutes for my last special and like two nights before i pulled it into from an hour and a half to like 70 with callbacks leaned it up like i know how to like craft the fucking thing yeah and i'd never really like i didn't like coming into it i'm like what the fuck am i i always have this idea it's like i'm just i'm scrambling but it's like when it came down to it i'm like
Marc:I put it together.
Marc:I'm a professional comic.
Guest:Yeah, and that speaks to, to call back this, it speaks to my love of precision.
Marc:Right, but I respect that.
Guest:There's something really satisfying about that hour relative to your HBO half hour where you fucking winged it.
Guest:Definitely, definitely.
Guest:And to me, that's just long-term a better thing.
Marc:I definitely feel better about that.
Marc:And I think that if anything, what we're both saying is that, you know, we've worked a long time at things and we're good at them now.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And isn't it, uh, it is really freeing.
Guest:It is, you know, I, you always use the word unfortunate, but it's very freeing in that.
Guest:Like the thing you think having watched three mics, you think more of me now.
Marc:I think more of you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I know you better.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know me better and you go, oh, he's good.
Marc:I always watch.
Marc:No, I always watch you.
Marc:I know you're good.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I mean, you know, I always respect your jokes.
Marc:I laugh at them.
Marc:I'm jealous of them.
Marc:I don't, I never had any.
Guest:The full Marin spectrum.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm all in.
Marc:You got all of the reactions.
Marc:You got all the reactions.
Guest:The three Marc Maron mics.
Guest:Jealousy.
Marc:But there was a time where just that one porno line where I would have been like, fuck him.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:I would have been like, that's kind of my joke.
Marc:You know, he saw it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, I wouldn't have blamed you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But but now I haven't done it.
Marc:It's like everyone talks about porn.
Marc:You know, I talk and we're all going to hit something.
Marc:But it was just that that was the beat.
Marc:That beat was the beat.
Marc:And like, you know, and I can appreciate it and tell you I appreciate it and be like that.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:And laugh at it and tell other people that I think it's funny as opposed to being like, yeah, fuck Neil.
Guest:He's got this joke.
Guest:I don't want to talk about it.
Marc:But yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, but that is, we are good at a thing and it allows both of us to relax a little bit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And hopefully be nicer to people.
Marc:No, I think we are.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And maybe, you know, the joy, let love in thing.
Marc:Yeah, we'll see.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Best of luck to both of us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thanks, man.
All right, buddy.
Marc:So there you go.
Marc:I think we're okay.
Marc:I feel that me and Neil are okay.
Marc:I do.
Marc:And I was happy to talk to him.
Marc:I want to remind you that PodSwag.com is the new home of all WTF merch.
Marc:Got one more show here.
Marc:I got one more show from here.
Marc:Maybe two.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I'm hot.
Marc:Sweaty.
Marc:Chubby.
Marc:But it's not going to stay that way.
Marc:Things pass.
Marc:Boomer lives!
Boomer lives!
you