Episode 913 - Rachel Bloom
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf you're listening to it you chose it didn't just happen to you welcome welcome to the show what is happening how's everybody doing how's work
Marc:You okay?
Marc:How are the kids?
Marc:How's the wife?
Marc:How's the husband?
Marc:How's the partner?
Marc:The partner?
Marc:How's your doggy?
Marc:How's your cat?
Marc:Oh, my cat?
Marc:It's funny you should ask because I think I told you that my cat was having a little bit of trouble peeing blood.
Marc:Sorry.
Marc:Good morning.
Marc:And it was terrifying because the cat La Fonda is an old lady.
Marc:She's an old lady.
Marc:She's 14 years old and she's getting becoming more fragile.
Marc:Not unlike human old ladies.
Marc:Her skin feels a little thinner.
Marc:She's a little lighter than she used to be.
Marc:She doesn't always know what's happening.
Marc:La Fonda.
Marc:And I know cats get older than La Fonda, but to take her to the vet.
Marc:is so devastating to both of us, really.
Marc:Let me tell you who's on the show real quick.
Marc:Rachel Bloom is on the show.
Marc:Rachel Bloom, crazy ex-girlfriend.
Marc:And she's in a new movie that's called Most Likely to Murder that her husband directed and stars another guy that I like, Adam Pally.
Marc:But she's here.
Marc:We had a talk.
Marc:And I guess I'll warn you now and I'll warn you again as we get closer.
Marc:There is a high level of Jew-ness happening at different points during this interview.
Marc:This is a bit Jew-y.
Marc:A bit Jewy.
Marc:If you like a Jewy, we got a little Jewy coming.
Marc:It's not over the top East Coast Jewy, but there's a nice Jewy subtext.
Marc:It's nice.
Marc:It's okay.
Marc:What I used to think was annoying about being Jewy, I believe has now become necessary.
Marc:We have to put our annoying voices out there.
Marc:We have to fight the power with our Jewiness.
Marc:Because don't want to normalize those Nazis now, do you?
Marc:Nah.
Marc:No, you don't.
Marc:Jew it up.
Marc:Bring on the Jew.
Marc:Jewish Vikings.
Marc:Got an email from a guy who said it might be possible.
Marc:We talked about that.
Marc:When did we talk about that?
Marc:A week or so ago?
Marc:After I was up in Oslo and Stockholm with the Viking history.
Marc:They got down there, man.
Marc:They got down there into the rivers of Poland, apparently, and they were hanging out.
Marc:And my brother's kind of tall.
Marc:Until I get my jeans done, I'm going to go with, I got a little Jew Viking in me.
Marc:Got some stocky Jew Viking in me.
Marc:And I'm going to go, I'm not a boat guy, but I got the other part.
Marc:I got the land bound Jew Viking part.
Marc:Anyways, what was I talking about?
Marc:I do need to mention that our potter, our ceramicists, Brian Jones has new cat mugs available starting today at noon.
Marc:Noon Eastern, 9 Pacific.
Marc:And these mugs, these are the same mugs I give to my guests.
Marc:I've got to start giving them again.
Marc:I forget to get them in the new garage.
Marc:Everything's discombobulated.
Marc:I have forgotten to give mugs to certain guests.
Marc:I don't believe Josh Brolin got a mug.
Marc:You haven't heard that one yet.
Marc:I don't believe Melissa McCarthy got a mug.
Marc:She's coming up Thursday.
Marc:But don't tell them.
Marc:Maybe I'll send them to give Mary Steenburgen.
Marc:I don't know if she, man, I got to get, I got to start giving the mugs out again, but they're available to you is my point.
Marc:And they always sell out.
Marc:So go get one for yourself.
Marc:That's a Brian R Jones.com slash shop.
Marc:for the WTF custom mug jobs.
Marc:Saw some guy on Twitter broke his.
Marc:Sorry, pal.
Marc:If I offer you a freebie publicly as a replacement, then that becomes a policy.
Marc:I can't do it.
Marc:But you can buy another one.
Marc:And look, I'm not making a fortune off of these.
Marc:These are nice things for the people.
Marc:People like him.
Marc:They're a solid mug.
Marc:I saw Yakov Smirnoff last night.
Marc:Said he drinks from my mug every day and he looks at my face on the mug.
Marc:But he didn't say that with the greatest tone, which is unusual for him.
Marc:But I think he's mad at me because of the intros I've been giving him lately.
Marc:Do you need more on that?
Marc:Do you need more on that?
Marc:I'm going to get back to La Fonda.
Marc:I know where I'm at.
Marc:So, La Fonda.
Marc:So, poor La Fonda.
Marc:Poor fragile old lady La Fonda.
Marc:I come home from Europe and she's got, there's bloody pee around.
Marc:So you got to take them in.
Marc:She's got, it's just so sad.
Marc:And now they're not, they don't even have that much fight in them.
Marc:So like it used to be a horrendous chore to get her in the box, but Sarah got her in the box right away.
Marc:But then I get to the vet and she's just freaking out and just exhausts the poor cat.
Marc:And they got to put her under just to get her x-rayed and give her tests and everything.
Marc:So I didn't know what it was.
Marc:And you don't know.
Marc:You don't know.
Marc:They're getting old, and you just sort of start to wait.
Marc:Any kind of illness could be the end of it at this age.
Marc:So I left her there for a couple hours.
Marc:I picked her up.
Marc:They did all the tests, and we gave her the antibiotic, and we didn't know if it would treat what she had.
Marc:So it turns out...
Marc:She's got a UTI and the antibiotic that was already administered will do it.
Marc:Will kill it.
Marc:Her kidneys are good.
Marc:Her liver is good.
Marc:Everything's good.
Marc:She's got a little bit of hip dysplasia and a little bit of fused vertebrae, whatever that means.
Marc:She's all right.
Marc:Just got to get her fed and get her past the trauma of going to the fucking vet.
Marc:Also, please do whatever you can to support the causes that you believe in, either through actual physical support or monetary support, whatever you got to do, whatever you think will help.
Marc:Don't feel too powerless.
Marc:I'm only saying this because I did some charitable contributing.
Marc:that I do once a year.
Marc:And I can tell you who I donate money to to try to fight the good fight.
Marc:The ACLU gets a nice chunk of change for me.
Marc:Planned Parenthood gets a nice chunk of change for me.
Marc:And the Carolina Tiger Rescue.
Marc:And my father.
Marc:That's become a charity.
Marc:No, I don't want to say that.
Marc:I don't want to make him feel shitty.
Marc:I just gave him a little present.
Marc:Because, you know, no matter what I say bad about him, I owe him something, right?
Marc:Like, he fed me, got me shoes, got me a car.
Marc:I don't think he knew he bought me that stuff.
Marc:It went through my mother.
Marc:My mother was the front office.
Marc:But, yeah, the Carolina Tiger Rescue.
Marc:They save large cats.
Marc:It's down there.
Marc:I went down there.
Marc:So that's, I'm just reminding people, if you can't get in, if you can't go out and do, you know, and you can't afford to support, support.
Marc:ACLU is out there in the trenches every day defending people who need defending and standing up for what's right constitutionally.
Marc:And obviously, Parenthood is under attack in many states, which...
Marc:There is an agenda to deny women of their health care rights.
Marc:So do that.
Marc:And if you care about tigers or lynxes or cougars of all kinds and other large cats, jaguars, jaguars, jaguar.
Marc:How do they say in England?
Marc:It always bothers me.
Marc:Jaguar.
Marc:That's what I say.
Marc:But I think when I see the commercial for jaguars, it's like jaguar or something, something weird.
Marc:Maybe that's the right way to say it.
Marc:What do I know?
Marc:A little Jewiness came out there.
Marc:It's setting it up.
Marc:I'm easing you in to Rachel Bloom who came over.
Marc:I had to familiarize myself with her stuff.
Marc:It all happened in a matter of days.
Marc:It just took an intensive Rachel Bloom class.
Marc:And we have things in common and it was good.
Marc:You'll see.
Marc:There's a new magic, folks.
Marc:There's a new magic to this space.
Marc:It's different and I feel it and there's something, it's more pure.
Marc:It's a little more pure for me, this space.
Marc:Not as much clutter, not as much baggage, not as much dust or weight.
Marc:It's it's clean.
Marc:It's pure.
Marc:These are the interviews that are happening here now in the new garage in an undisclosed location.
Marc:Rachel Bloom has a new movie that she's in right now called Most Likely to Murder.
Marc:I watched it.
Marc:It's good.
Marc:It's available on digital download and most on demand platforms.
Marc:And of course, she's always in Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.
Marc:OK, this is me and Rachel Bloom.
Guest:I have a pretty good sense of what to say.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I mean, what am I preserving?
Marc:Right.
Guest:There's nothing to protect or preserve.
Marc:Nothing?
Guest:No.
Marc:Well... It's weird, because I get a reputation as being that way, too, because I'm pretty candid on here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But then I started to learn that there are some things, like...
Marc:The one thing I learned is that maybe don't talk about other people.
Marc:There's that one.
Guest:That's my one barrier is whenever I do interviews, it's like, what can I share?
Guest:I'll share anything about myself because that's me.
Guest:But other people, it's like, I got to be really, really careful because I still want to hurt someone.
Marc:But also, like, there's this weird thing where it's like, well, you know, other people were involved in this thing I'm talking about.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But they don't have a voice in it.
Marc:If I bring it up, you know.
Guest:They can't argue for themselves.
Marc:If I talk about a relationship or something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then they're like, well, I'm glad you had that.
Marc:That's your point of view.
Marc:Where do I get to share mine?
Marc:Oh, you don't.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I win.
Guest:You can just write an article for The Wrap or something.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I wrote a memoir, you know, a lot about my second marriage, which was sort of a volatile relationship, but I was an asshole.
Marc:I mean, that's sort of out there.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And I don't think anyone's getting sent home from work for being an asshole.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yet.
Guest:Even though that's technically, we had a...
Guest:We had a whole... I mean, every year we do a big HR meeting.
Guest:I'm sure you do this with your show.
Guest:Here at the house?
Marc:Yeah, I do it here at the house.
Marc:Yeah, just here at the house.
Marc:I hire an independent HR company.
Marc:Just to talk to the cats.
Marc:To talk to me and the cats, yeah.
Guest:It's a thing with CBS, and they were saying that actually, if your boss is like a gratuitous asshole, that does count as workplace bullying, that California specifically... Workplace bullying, right.
Guest:Yeah, workplace bullying, which I feel like if those laws had been...
Guest:a thing for many years.
Guest:Most writers rooms before like 2007 would have gotten busted.
Guest:My first writers room was like an old school.
Marc:I've heard stories.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like my, the writers room for my show, like I was in charge.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And it was just me and four dudes.
Marc:It wasn't even a big writer's room.
Marc:I mean, the biggest mistake was it wasn't very diversified and there were no women.
Marc:It was just four dudes or five dudes looking at the walls, waiting for something to happen.
Guest:So what is that?
Guest:So let me ask you, because...
Guest:I did a conversation last night.
Guest:We were talking about diversity and representation.
Guest:And what I was thinking was the reason sometimes there are no women or people of color on a staff.
Guest:It's like you hire people innocently hire the people they know and the people who remind them of themselves that it's kind of a tribalism thing.
Guest:Would you say that's somewhat accurate?
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I think with me, because I didn't have that much money to staff and my showrunners, they were a team.
Marc:So there were two, right?
Marc:So that left me with like two or three positions to fill with guys who I thought understood me and knew what was going on.
Marc:It's an excuse, but some writers rooms have like 10 people in them.
Marc:And if you have that kind of network money, you can really mix it up.
Marc:But it was like the first season was just me, those two guys, and one other guy and a writer's assistant.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So you want the people you know who are going to get your sensibility and get where you come from.
Guest:And nine times out of ten, those people are going to be people who are like you.
Guest:But you know what?
Marc:I realize, though, I think that I could have hired a woman.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:And it would have been fine.
Marc:You're writing television.
Yeah.
Marc:And she can give that other sense to the other side of it.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:I mean, that's what's hard is I was the only woman on my first writing staff.
Marc:What staff was that?
Guest:It was a show called Alan Gregory.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:It was a very short-lived Fox animated show.
Marc:Oh, an animated show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I will say the people running it were actually very, very nice.
Guest:But I was the only girl and I was the youngest.
Guest:And there is something where, you know, if you're the only girl and you're a staff writer, sure, you're like the token woman's voice.
Guest:But at the end of the day...
Guest:you're are you really gonna have like so it wasn't let's say it wasn't the creators it was someone else in the writer's room like pitched an innocent like kind of date rape joke right that happens in writer's rooms all the time that happens in stand-up comedy clubs all the time it's just easy comedy date rape racist yeah exactly it's just lowest anti-semitic well it's why like 16 year olds tell dead baby jokes yeah it's just like yeah it's the lowest sure it's the easiest form it's like a fart yeah all the farts are still fucking hilarious yeah
Guest:So as the youngest person in the writer's room, am I really going to be like, um, excuse me, that's offensive.
Guest:No, you don't want to come off as, and this is internalized misogyny, but you don't want to come off as like the crazy woman who's overbearing and can't take a joke.
Guest:And so it's hard to be the token.
Guest:You have to, I think if you're going to hire like the one person representing their gender or their race or even their orientation, they need to be high up because otherwise if they're a staff writer,
Guest:They're scared shitless.
Marc:But the bigger question is, as a comic, in that moment, it's not that you're not being paid to represent a gender.
Marc:The real question is, were you offended?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You were?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You were offended.
Guest:Yeah, but it's scary.
Guest:I mean, I don't know.
Guest:I was terrified on my first writing staff.
Guest:My default for many years was to...
Guest:walk into a room, apologize for being there, and assume I didn't belong there.
Guest:And that's just also, I think, partially a gender thing, but also partially a personality thing.
Guest:I'm a chronic people pleaser.
Guest:I'm really afraid of authority.
Guest:And so I walked into my first writer's room thinking, I got hired off a 30 Rock spec.
Guest:That's all I had.
Guest:I mean, I had one music video out and a 30 Rock spec.
Marc:With the Ray Bradbury music?
Guest:Yeah, that was it.
Guest:It was that and a speck of 30 Rock.
Guest:And
Guest:I walked in being like, I'm, and I was 23, thinking, oh my God, I don't deserve to be here.
Guest:And then some of the people on the staff were, even though they were technically staff writers, they actually had a lot more experience.
Guest:It was the type of thing where they'd, because you only get bumped up if you're on a show that gets ordered to a second season.
Guest:So you can be a staff writer working on many different shows for many years if you're on shows that keep getting canceled after the first season.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:So some of those guys were the case, and it was a...
Guest:really mean competitive room.
Guest:And it was the type of thing where I already went in thinking I don't deserve to be here.
Guest:And then you tell a shitty joke and they'd be like, Oh, good job.
Guest:Good job.
Guest:And I remember one day I walked in wearing a hat that I loved.
Guest:It was just a beautiful knit hat.
Guest:Oh, nice hat.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, why are you wearing a hat?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is it going to rain?
Yeah.
Guest:yeah you know certain things used to really hurt my feelings and and uh i think sometimes they still do but i just kind of suck it up like what are the type of things that hurt your feelings well the hat thing would bother me yeah right because it's calling out the because because some of the people in the room are improvisers and there's this thing in improv call out the unusual thing yeah and that's kind of where it comes from is i'm going to be the straight man to this scene that is my life but it's like why is my hat unusual can't you just let me have a fucking hat
Marc:I don't know, like even with the women I know in comedy and with anybody in comedy, there is a certain amount of like kind of, you know, ball busting that goes on.
Guest:There totally is.
Guest:And I and it's a really fine line.
Marc:But it's different than a writer's room.
Marc:I mean, you're being in a sketch, being at UCB or being at the comedy store and hanging out, you know, backstage or whatever is different than, you know, the pressure and the weight of going to work every day.
Guest:It's also context.
Guest:My friends, we bust each other's balls all the time.
Guest:I mean, my writing partners and I, we are straight up mean to each other.
Guest:My songwriting partners and I, we're mean to each other.
Guest:But we love each other.
Guest:It comes from a place of deep empathy and respect and love.
Guest:That's way different than punching down.
Marc:Deep insecurity.
Guest:Deep insecurity.
Guest:And I mean, there's a brand of dude, and I'm going to generalize here, but there's a brand of dude who has learned...
Guest:to use comedy only as a weapon to assert their dominance over other people and and that's not i'm not a fan of that i think comedy i think comedy is a way to connect and enlighten and so it can be mean but it has to come from a place of those are those people uh professional comedians yes that you're talking about yeah huh
Guest:And in fact, this is the one podcast I've done where they actually might be listening.
Guest:Everything else has been like, you know, the feminist blah, blah, blah.
Guest:They're not listening to that.
Guest:They're listening to this.
Marc:Oh, so this is a standup that asserts his dominance to.
Guest:These are various.
Guest:There's a couple of people on stage.
Marc:Like I'm just trying to.
Guest:These are I'm talking more about the people I'm thinking of are more improv sketch comedians who are just very good joke writers.
Guest:I mean, the type of person I've noticed that does that's different.
Marc:So that's that's their they got that's their swagger.
Guest:Yeah, oh, a thousand percent.
Guest:And I always get the sense a little bit with some of them, especially now that I'm more confident in who I am, that when a woman does it, there's a little bit of like, wait, this is what I do to get pussy.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:You're a woman.
Guest:I'm supposed to get you with my jokes, but the pussy's being funny and I don't want to like, I can't fuck funny.
Marc:That pussy's going to eat my dick.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:A hundred percent.
Guest:It all goes back to castration fears, which is actually a big part of a feminist film theory that it all stems from guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's this writer, Laura Mulvey.
Guest:I went to school for, I went to NYU where we read a lot of essays on, I don't know, sometimes nonsense.
Guest:Well, let's go.
Marc:Let's start.
Marc:Let's get, wait.
Marc:So I'll make note.
Marc:of where we ended up here, which is castration fear, which I instinctively figured out on my own, and you were going to explain to me why it's right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So let's go back, though, because you do have experience in sketch and performance, but I don't know anything about you.
Marc:I had to immerse myself in you over the last week or so.
Guest:Well, so first of all, this is a really big deal for me to be on here.
Guest:You know, this is, comics see this as like you've made it if you're on what the fuck at this point.
Guest:That's crazy.
Guest:It's so fucking cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I always, in my head, when I was listening to this, when I was still like a waitress, I'd be like, who would I put on blast if I went on what the fuck?
Guest:And now I'm not in that place.
Marc:What does that mean, put on blast?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Like, who would I, what would I be like honest about?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, the thing is, I'm a very angry person, but I'm also terrified of being seen as crazy or angry.
Guest:And so I have a lot of anger that I keep inside, which is why I love scenes where I get to play angry because it's very cathartic.
Marc:So, but I mean, we have things in common.
Marc:You're clearly a Jew.
Marc:You know, and I speak that.
Guest:I heard your interview with Mel Brooks.
Guest:It was great.
Marc:I became Jewish.
Marc:Where I started talking like an old Jew.
Guest:Your nose got bigger.
Marc:Yeah, everything got big.
Marc:Yeah, everything got Jewier.
Guest:You literally, by the end of the interview, were speaking like this.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Yeah, I do that.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:I do that.
Marc:With any sort of charismatic personality that I keep talking to, eventually I start to morph.
Marc:My boundaries.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's a means of I think it's an innate compulsion to connect.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like, you know, I can speak that language.
Marc:I can do this.
Marc:What do you do?
Marc:So, now, you grew up in California?
Guest:Yeah, Manhattan Beach.
Marc:Manhattan Beach, which is, okay, so it's half Manhattan.
Marc:Because you have a, you know, I always associate Jews starting.
Marc:Did your family originate in New York?
Guest:Yeah, my grandpa was Brooklyn.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my father's from Boston.
Guest:And my parents lived their lives like East Coast Jews.
Guest:Boston Jews.
Marc:Oh, yeah, Boston Jews.
Marc:That's a unique bunch, the Boston Jews.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The family apparently I found out was everyone was driven out of Boston by my my father's mother, who just sounds like an overall bitch.
Marc:And so they went to L.A.
Guest:They were like, I'm peacing out.
Guest:I'm going to Philly.
Guest:So all of the Boston blooms are gone because slowly my grandmother, I think, drove people out is what I'm starting to hear.
Marc:But it doesn't sound like they went too far to where they couldn't have to.
Marc:If they had to visit, they could take the train.
Guest:Oh,
Guest:Well, if they had to visit, you know, when she dies, pick up the things that she left behind.
Marc:She was a monster?
Guest:I mean, she died when I was four.
Guest:Yeah, I will say there's a song on our show called Where's the Bathroom, which is a song that the woman who plays my mother sings.
Guest:And she's an amalgamation of various Jewish mothers.
Guest:And my dad called me and said,
Guest:That song is literally what my mother said when she saw my first apartment.
Guest:He's like, I think that you must have been there somehow in 1971 when my mother walked in.
Marc:And what would she say?
Marc:What'd she say?
Guest:She called it a hovel.
Guest:This place is dreck.
Guest:This place is garbage.
Guest:What are you doing?
Guest:What are you doing with your life?
Marc:A hovel.
Guest:A hovel.
Marc:They're horrible.
Marc:They can be really horrible.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I mean, I didn't have a monster Jewish mother or grandmother, but I've met them.
Marc:I know who they are.
Guest:Aren't you half?
Guest:Are you full?
Marc:Full.
Guest:Oh, I thought you were half.
Guest:No.
Guest:You were from Arizona, right?
Marc:New Mexico.
Marc:New Mexico.
Marc:But both my folks are from Jersey.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But no, I'm full Jew.
Guest:So you had a very nice mother.
Marc:No.
Marc:I mean, she was nuts in her own way.
Marc:Selfish.
Marc:It's a spectrum of selfishness is usually what you're dealing with.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And sometimes it's abusive.
Marc:Sometimes it's negligent.
Marc:Sometimes it's overbearing.
Marc:But usually, whatever it is, it's all about them.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:Well, I think that you're getting to some... I'm very... I've become very annoyed.
Guest:And this is not just with Jews.
Guest:It's Italians.
Guest:It's everyone.
Guest:When culture is used to explain away cruelty or mental illness.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Where it's like, oh, I'm a Jewish mother.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:I'm going to harpy you.
Guest:No, you're being actually really mean right now.
Guest:Abusive.
Guest:And don't use your fucking culture to excuse that, even though it's rooted in...
Guest:survival i've noticed that because there's a main character on our show is filipino and so we talked a lot about the the similarities between filipinos and jews and asian families and jewish families and it's an immigrant culture thing it's you come to this country i came to this country for what right
Guest:For you to go into stand-up?
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:No.
Marc:To live in a hovel?
Guest:To live in a hovel?
Guest:We escaped the Cossacks for this?
Marc:Right.
Marc:And the premium that the Jews used to put on education.
Marc:I guess it's a tradition of living outside of other cultures because of the religion and being not allowed to do certain things because of that.
Marc:There was always this premium put on becoming the best religion.
Marc:You know, so, you know, you can show up for, you know, where they can't argue with you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's, well, it relates back to if you're the one woman at like a, you know, doing a set.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're...
Guest:doing it on behalf of all women.
Guest:If you bomb, there's someone in that audience who's gonna go, women aren't funny because of that one person.
Guest:You won't have a person say, men aren't funny because that one person bombed.
Guest:There's something about being, anyone who's in the minority, whatever you call minority is always, you're representing your culture.
Marc:But the other side of that, is it your responsibility?
Guest:No.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But like it or not, with ignorant people, it sometimes is.
Marc:Are you getting anything like that?
Marc:I mean, how does my crazy ex-girlfriend?
Guest:Crazy ex-girlfriend.
Guest:There's no my.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Crazy ex-girlfriend.
Guest:The only reason I correct people is because my makes it possessive and it makes it from a male gaze point of view.
Marc:I dig it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Crazy ex-girlfriend.
Marc:I don't want to be accused of male gazing.
Guest:You can't help it.
Marc:Of course not.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's the way that your brains are programmed.
Guest:Men and women are different.
Guest:It's okay.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Have you used that as a topic?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I've talked about this in other places, but I'm curious as to what you think.
Guest:I heard a story in NPR a couple years ago of a person who was transitioning.
Guest:They were a woman and they were taking hormones to become a man.
Yeah.
Guest:They get on the subway.
Guest:They started testosterone.
Guest:They get on the New York subway.
Guest:Suddenly they see this person sees a hot woman.
Marc:Is this a parable?
Guest:I know, right?
Guest:It sounds like, and the rabbi put three more goats in the house.
Guest:They get on the subway and they start, they see attractive woman and suddenly get the urge to like, fuck this woman.
Guest:And he starts.
Guest:The transitioning.
Guest:The person who's transitioning.
Guest:To a man.
Guest:Yeah, and he realizes, oh, is this what testosterone does?
Guest:And I talked to a lot of my friends about this, including my husband, and they were all to varying degrees like, yeah.
Guest:Like when I walk into a room and I see a hot guy, maybe I'll register it, but it's not this involuntary thing.
Guest:But apparently... But what makes you do that?
Marc:Is it talking to somebody?
Marc:I mean, hot is very subjective.
Guest:Hot's really subjective.
Guest:I think for me, I have to get a vibe.
Guest:I have to catch a vibe.
Guest:Yeah, okay, a vibe.
Guest:I gotta catch that vibe, but it's not purely...
Guest:physical it's why women don't wolf whistle at men on the street that's not how our brains work but the way that it seems that a lot of men's brains work is you my husband described it where it's like you'll see a hot woman in the back of his head it's like a little voice just goes pussy yeah pussy and it's involuntary but another friend described it as you'll get an involuntary like camera flash of like boom uh picture me fucking her in the shower and then it goes away
Guest:You tell me.
Marc:Unless you, you know, continue the scene.
Marc:Unless you continue the scene.
Guest:Unless you're actually fucking her in the shower.
Marc:No, I mean, like those things come and you have a certain amount of control over how long they go on for.
Marc:But I mean, but I think on some level, the pussy thing is right.
Marc:But it's also but it's the same thing that goes on where it's like there's the other one is food.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I get that when I see I'm a big fan of roller coasters.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I've realized it's the same thing when I see a video of a roller coaster on TV or if we're driving past an amusement park.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The way I treat roller coasters is the way I think my husband thinks about women.
Marc:Well, I think there's something very primal about it and very, you know, biological about it.
Marc:And, you know, being civilized people who have self-awareness, you know, you kind of keep that shit in check.
Marc:But I think that it's undeniable, but not in any way an excuse that, you know, that we're put here on some level to fuck.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:And that's, you know, always that part of the brain is always sort of like, are we fucking?
Marc:When are we fucking?
Marc:Is that going to happen soon?
Marc:Where is it?
Marc:I think.
Guest:It's how we make more people.
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Guest:It's how we survive.
Guest:It makes sense.
Marc:And I haven't made any more people.
Guest:That you know of.
Marc:No, I think they would have come out by now.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:I think I would have met them.
Guest:There's still time.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Oh, for me to have people?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, there is.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It seems like just thinking about it, I'm worried about the kid.
Marc:Like, I'm worried now.
Marc:Like, you know, why don't you have children?
Marc:He's going to go to school by himself?
Marc:So, like, I don't, you know.
Guest:What do you mean he's going to go to school by himself?
Marc:That eventually you have to watch this thing.
Guest:Oh, I thought you meant like for whatever reason your kid is going to be like alone in a school.
Marc:He is going to be like, I mean, he's got to get no other students.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:No, it's just like the worry thing.
Marc:I'm an anxious person.
Marc:I have like severe panic and anxiety issues.
Guest:It's very paternal to automatically think that that you're not like, oh, a kid responsibility.
Guest:You're like, oh, no, I'm going to worry about him.
Guest:It's very sweet, actually.
Marc:Yeah, but it gets overbearing.
Marc:Worrying is not love.
Marc:No?
Marc:No, because it's sort of like, how am I going to deal with if something, what am I going to do if something happens to that kid?
Marc:How am I going to handle that?
Guest:Oh, it all goes back to your feet, like a fear of in a way like, God forbid that kid should die.
Guest:Your life is over.
Marc:Something.
Guest:You won't be able to recover.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because I'm making up a kid.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So he's got no hair color.
Marc:I don't know his name, but it's just the idea.
Marc:I think his name's Alex.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But the idea is that like I'm responsible and so much is out of my control.
Marc:You know, what if something happens?
Mm hmm.
Guest:It's the same thing with cats, though.
Marc:I know, and it's terrible.
Guest:I think that's probably why you feel it a little bit.
Marc:It's terrible.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's just too much anxiety.
Marc:I like kids, and I like to communicate with them, and I like to see them, but the day-to-day of it.
Marc:But people seem to lock into it.
Marc:Are you having them?
Guest:It's a debate.
Guest:It's a conversation.
Guest:I emotionally want them.
Marc:What is that?
Marc:Emotionally versus what?
Guest:Well, it's logistics.
Guest:It's a lot of emotional things on my end and my husband's end.
Guest:I mean, it's hard.
Guest:Having kids is fucking hard.
Guest:I mean, I work 16 hours a day.
Guest:For half the year, I work 16 hours a day.
Guest:I couldn't have a kid right now.
Guest:I mean, if I did, I would never see them and they would grow to resent me.
Guest:So there is a certain sacrifice and give and take.
Guest:Plus, there's the wild card of if I want to have a kid, I don't know what I'm going to be like when I'm pregnant.
Guest:I don't know if I'm going to be able to function or if I'm going to be super sick.
Guest:I don't know what my postpartum is going to be like.
Marc:So we're exactly the same.
Marc:Yours is just a little more complicated.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Because it's my body.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I fear the bad post.
Guest:My mom had very bad postpartum and she was very sick and I'm...
Guest:postpartum that lasted what your entire childhood i guess so that she's still going through um no i mean it was hard for her because she had bad postpartum and then her brother was killed in a car accident so i think a lot of those things compounded but i i've heard horror stories from other people about postpartum and and it's just the way it fucks with your body and i have a whole thing where i mean
Guest:Getting into it's kind of boring, but I have this whole thing where I can't be on a birth control with estrogen because it makes my tits hurt half the month and I have a really sensitive system anyway.
Guest:So that's a whole other thing where what's it going to do to my body?
Guest:What's it going to do to my mind?
Marc:The kid.
Guest:Just being pregnant.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Scary.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, no, I can hear that.
Marc:I mean, I believe you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you know and I know that some people just do it.
Guest:Well, a lot of people do it.
Marc:Yeah, like a lot.
Guest:Like most people do it.
Marc:But I guess what I'm sensing is that whatever emotional, whatever desire you have to have them is being overridden either for emotional reasons or practical reasons.
Marc:Whatever the reasons are, the case is being made against having them.
Guest:The case is, well, look, logically, it makes no sense for anyone to have a kid.
Guest:I think that's the ultimate thing.
Marc:In what way?
Guest:It costs money.
Guest:You're raising- But these are practical, isn't it?
Guest:I'm just saying purely practical.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:If you take out the emotion.
Marc:Right.
Guest:It doesn't make logistical sense to suddenly spend all this money to raise this person.
Marc:I don't think it costs much more than a pet until they're like 11.
Yeah.
Guest:Okay, but also effort.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because you're up at all hours of the night.
Guest:You give something unconditional.
Guest:Well, this gets into emotion, but you give something unconditional love that they may never.
Guest:It's always conditional.
Guest:Return.
Guest:Always becomes a condition.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Obviously, yeah.
Guest:I think I do.
Guest:I mean, it's just, and I want it.
Guest:The weird thing is I say I'm afraid of being pregnant.
Guest:I actually want to be pregnant.
Guest:I love feeling my friend's pregnant bellies.
Guest:You do?
Guest:Oh, I love it.
Guest:I love looking at ultrasound pictures.
Guest:I love feeling where the baby is.
Guest:I've always been, as a kid, I was an only child and I was a weird only child.
Guest:I would pretend I was pregnant when I was four or five and then I would take a shit and be like, I'm giving birth.
Marc:Yeah, you wanted a brother maybe.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I had imaginary siblings.
Marc:Really?
Guest:That I would fight with.
Marc:So you were your only child.
Guest:I was an only child and my imaginary siblings were Kevin McAllister from Home Alone, Wednesday Adams, and Pippi Longstocking.
Marc:Oh, Pippi.
Marc:That would be fun.
Guest:Yeah, but I would fight with them.
Marc:You'd fight with your made up sibling.
Guest:And then I'd make my parents, yeah, I'd be like, Pippi's being mean.
Guest:And I'd make my parents come in and mediate.
Guest:I would go, Pippi, stop.
Marc:They would do that for you?
Guest:Yeah, they would.
Marc:They'd play along?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because why didn't they have other kids?
Marc:You don't know?
Marc:They just wanted one or?
Guest:uh i i honestly think my mom had a really tough pregnancy my dad was 42 when i was born oh wow i just know he got a vasectomy pretty quickly after i got it done he got that shit done so he could come in my mom yeah and not worry about not worry about
Marc:Look at me coming in you.
Marc:All right, so let's try to get up to, because I want to talk about how it happened for you, because I think that you, and not unlike you and me as well, were part of a new media thing that I think made a lot of other people think, oh, I could just do it that way.
Yeah.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you grew up in Manhattan Beach and you went to high school here.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you did high school theater.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yeah, I have a very good theater department.
Guest:And it was weird growing up in Manhattan Beach because I grew up with... I was an anxious kid who had... I was obsessed with musical theater and thought about death but was also very outgoing and was raised by neurotic Jews who always talked about skin cancer.
Guest:And so I was...
Guest:And plus I had like... Skin cancer?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you get your skin checked?
Marc:I do.
Marc:I had a basal cell on my nose.
Guest:Oh, shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, they had to cut it.
Marc:It was a real procedure.
Marc:It's not... That's not a deadly one.
Marc:No.
Marc:But it's like... It's a thing.
Marc:And I thought like you just get it removed like a mole.
Marc:But no.
Marc:They made a hole in my face.
Guest:Yeah, to get out the... I don't even see anything.
Marc:Well, if I really pointed it out to you, you would see it.
Marc:They do a Mohs procedure where they keep taking out a thing.
Marc:They cut a little bit out and then they go test it.
Marc:Then if they didn't get it all, they cut again.
Marc:But you're just sitting there in the waiting room with gauze stuck into a cauterized hole that's numbed out.
Guest:Oh, they do it in the same...
Marc:day so you're sitting there oh that's each time each time and like they went three or four times and i'm like can i see what's going on and the doctor's like we don't usually we don't recommend that you look at it at this point in time because it's numb yeah and i go look in a mirror i'm like i said i gotta see what you're doing there's like this nickel-sized hole oh
Marc:on the side of my fucking nose and I'm like can you fix that holy shit and then of course the doctor with their cute fucking sense of humor is like I think so you think so anyway so you're saying you were brought up by neurotic Jews full of panic and you had anxiety problems and morose thoughts yes doctor yes
Marc:Well, you've processed this.
Guest:Oh, 1,000%.
Guest:It just sounded like I felt like I was suddenly in a very good therapy session.
Marc:You're in a pretty good therapy session.
Guest:Pretty good.
Marc:I'm not a professional.
Guest:After doing all these interviews, I think you might as well be.
Marc:Yeah?
Yeah.
Marc:I've gotten emails from psychologists.
Guest:Do they like the show?
Marc:They think it's helpful.
Marc:Well, they think that I do a good job.
Marc:But I'm not a clinical.
Marc:I'm just spitballing.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:I'm spitballing that you're a little fucked up.
Yeah.
Marc:that would be accurate yes see there you go all fixed um but like the morose thought so because i i remember i was going to ask you i have this i always have this theory about only children but none none of them have have uh validated it for me did you did you fear for your uh did you fear was there extra pressure because you were the only one
Guest:Yes and no.
Guest:I mean, I was so... And this is more relating to anything artistic.
Guest:I was so encouraged and adored with artsy stuff that it gave me confidence, but then it became my identity, which happens a lot with musical theater people, too, in general.
Guest:Your talent, your art, your craft becomes your self-worth.
Marc:Now, were your parents creative artsy types?
Guest:My dad, no, my dad's a lawyer who loves health law like the way we love comedy.
Guest:He's obsessed with it.
Guest:And my mom, my mom was a music major and is a pianist and sang in choirs.
Guest:So, yes.
Guest:And then my grandpa was an amateur.
Guest:My grandpa sold technical manuals, but on the side, he directed and wrote and acted in community theater.
Guest:And he was the one, we have all these videos where he's teaching me all these old songs and he pushes me, do it again, do it again, do it again.
Guest:But it was all no one professional.
Guest:Yeah, my mom's dad, who was from Brooklyn, who I spent a lot of time with.
Marc:That's so sweet.
Marc:And he lived a long time?
Guest:He lived to be 80.
Guest:He died when I was in college.
Marc:Oh, so you had a full life with him.
Guest:I did.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Yeah, I had that with a couple of my grandparents.
Guest:Yeah, but it was complicated.
Guest:I mean, as it is with all Jews, I think it was lovely, but also he had a really bad temper.
Guest:I mean, I heard that when he directed community theater, he would make his actors cry.
Guest:He would just scream at them if they were a minute late.
Marc:But not with you.
Yeah.
Guest:Sometimes.
Guest:Sometimes.
Guest:He would yell at me if I wasn't wearing shoes in the house.
Marc:Yeah, my grandfather had had a heart attack by the time I really got to know him already, so he was on Librium, which was pre-Paxil, it was a sort of like, just kind of kept him level a little.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So he was more cranky than, my mother claims that he was just a raging lunatic, but by the time I met him, it was sort of like, what are we, are we leaving?
Marc:And he was just very placated.
Guest:I think it was the same with my... I mean, I think my grandpa... Not hit my mom, but he hit my uncles.
Guest:I mean, you know, that's what you did in the 50s to discipline kids.
Guest:You hit them with bells and shit.
Marc:Now you're doing what you... What am I doing?
Guest:You're... That's what you did in the 50s.
Guest:Listen, it was a different time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:i have one uncle who uh lives in northern california and just completely isolated himself oh he ran away from the family there's always one of those yeah there's always there's always one of those who's just like i'm out peace out yeah yeah i'm gone yeah they're and they probably don't even identify as jewish anymore yeah well he's into um he's a mystic
Marc:Oh, sure.
Marc:Jewish mystic.
Guest:He's a Jewish mystic.
Guest:It's a thing.
Guest:He makes metal geometric objects and speaks to spirits through them.
Guest:That's literally his religion.
Marc:Yeah, but it's not Jewish.
Guest:No, it's not Jewish.
Marc:It's just a guy who has a strange compulsion that...
Marc:Well, it's his calling.
Guest:I think there is a system.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:There are other people.
Guest:There's like a guru and there are other people.
Guest:I mean, but would you I mean, if you weren't Jewish or say you had no religion, I mean, Judaism is weird in that you can be an atheist.
Guest:like i am and still call yourself cultural identity jewish right right it's a religion and a race and a culture i guess um i don't know if it's a race is it i've had that question before have you thought about it well i've done 23 and me and ancestry.com and it says my race is 98 ashkenazi jewish i gotta do that but be prepared to be underwhelmed you're just gonna be 100 jewish there's not gonna be anything interesting no no my brother's kind of tall i come from russian polish that's yeah that's me too
Marc:So, okay, so you're a Jew and musical theater.
Marc:So you're doing that very young?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's what you're telling me?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then I went to school.
Guest:I wanted to be on Broadway.
Guest:And so I majored in musical theater at NYU and quickly got disenchanted with it.
Marc:But how big of a problem was your mental problems?
Guest:I learned to be a very good show pony.
Guest:So I think people didn't know what was going on.
Guest:That's like a, you know, it's like I'm a, I'm a, yeah.
Guest:I learned to cover it.
Marc:You can turn that shit on.
Marc:I can see it on the show.
Marc:I can see it on stage.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You're just one of those people that, like, if there's a, if, hey, if everyone's sad in a circle, you're going to like, wait.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We're mourning here.
Guest:He had a great life.
Guest:It's fine.
Guest:He was 16.
Guest:So?
Guest:Let's sing a song.
Guest:Let's sing a song.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Put on company.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that's what you do is you power through.
Guest:And in some ways, it's...
Guest:because cognitive behavioral therapy is all about deciding, you know, what anxious thoughts do you engage in.
Marc:Right, but you're sort of backloading that.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it was all going to come to a head.
Marc:But no, I'm just listening to you because I did the same thing.
Marc:Like, you know, I just plowed along.
Marc:And because I had a very sort of not aggressive personality, but like my parents were not...
Marc:They were just sort of like, oh, that kid's okay.
Marc:He's going to be okay.
Marc:That one's going to be okay.
Marc:I wasn't really okay, but I ended up doing comedy.
Marc:I ended up pushing ahead, and a lot of it was because I didn't buckle.
Marc:There's something about that persistence.
Marc:I guess you could call it creativity.
Marc:I don't know what it is, but I think what you're talking about that I like is that it is cognitive because it's survival because either you're going to
Marc:But didn't you fucking like I'm now I'm thinking about myself and didn't you fucking spin out and lose your fucking mind and end up in the goddamn college health center and breathing into a bag or what?
Guest:I mean, it was slow.
Guest:I think I've always been so afraid and aware of keeping up appearances.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Even at my lowest.
Guest:I always wanted to seem normal.
Guest:So there were definitely.
Guest:I mean, moments in college where I spun out.
Guest:And that also has to do with romantic stuff.
Marc:But you never thought you were dying or any of that shit?
No.
Guest:No, I never thought I was dying, and I've never really had earnest thoughts of suicide.
Guest:And I think that's... I don't know what that is.
Guest:I mean, I have a friend who... One of my good friends, since he was a kid, has had thoughts of suicide.
Guest:I mean, he would open up the drawer in his parents' house and look at the knives, and...
Guest:But he, on the outside, had this great life, and I'm not saying my life hasn't been great, but I'm kind of the opposite, that there's something underneath all the stuff that's really sunny and happy and positive, and there's this, the idea of just ending it, I'm like, oh, but it'll get better, despite everything, and I don't know where it comes from or what that is.
Marc:I used to do a bit about that, but I think about suicide all the time.
Marc:It's not because I want to kill myself.
Marc:It just makes me feel better knowing that I can if I have to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:It's actually a cognitive stress relief tool.
Guest:Do you think that's to soothe yourself?
Guest:Like, well, if nothing else, I can kill myself.
Marc:I used to, yeah.
Marc:Oh, fuck yeah.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:It was like such a go to.
Marc:I think that's what's there in place of the father of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Marc:That what's in like my inability to suspend my disbelief enough to turn anything over to God is just sort of like I could always just make myself die.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I think that is the hole that most people are like, you know, it's a spiritual void.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, for many years, my spiritual void was filled with this kind of not Jewish mysticism, but as much as like
Guest:I would say like privileged, privileged white person, like, well, the universe cares about me.
Guest:So anything that, you know, goes wrong happens for a reason.
Guest:And you tell yourself, like, it all happens for a reason.
Guest:And when I'd be shitty to other people or something bad would happen, I'd tell myself, well, this was meant to happen.
Guest:And then I remember the moment in college.
Guest:I remember the moment in college where I was, I'd already been reading Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion.
Guest:So I was kind of primed for it.
Guest:I went, wait, what if it's not meant to happen?
Guest:Just for a second.
Guest:what if there's no faith?
Guest:What if I'm just, I happen to exist?
Guest:And when I fuck up, I just fuck up.
Guest:And when I mean, when I'm not mean, I'm never mean, but like when I'm inconsiderate to people, I'm inconsiderate.
Guest:And when I'm irresponsible, I'm just irresponsible.
Guest:And it's actually to the detriment of myself and I can learn from it.
Guest:But at the end of the day, it was a mistake.
Guest:And that was the moment I became a practical atheist and I became a better person in that one moment.
Guest:So my spirit, my spirituality was,
Guest:uh it it happened to me in this moment kind of the way other people describe finding jesus yeah losing jesus or losing whatever that your that that cushion was that allowed me to not be the best version of myself the self-centered rationalizing universe thing that allowed me to also be lazy
Marc:Well, that whole thing, like nothing happens, it's not supposed to happen, is all relative to your perception of things.
Marc:And that's where everybody gets sort of fucked up with their ego and narcissism, is that all those kind of little trinkets of spiritual awareness are really relative to your perception.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Also, it comes from a place of... For me, it came from a place of privilege.
Guest:Because, okay, so I'm a fucking like...
Guest:upper middle class you know white person in america majoring in theater with no student loans of course i can tell myself that everything that's meant to happen happens for a reason that my life will be okay because nine times out of ten my life is going to turn out okay but it's so fucking selfish of me to like think that was someone
Guest:i don't know living in a fucking destitute area who's dying of dysentery like everything happens for a reason what a privileged fucking thing to think about sure well the other version is god has a plan and what's your plan man yeah i know show me your five step show me your what's your five-year plan god
Marc:I don't even have time to think about it.
Marc:The idea of God and all that, when people are like, I don't even think about it anymore.
Marc:So atheism is practical and makes you take responsibility.
Guest:And that's why I call I say I'm a practical atheist, a theoretical agnostic that the way that I live my life day to day is taking full responsibility for my actions and being a nice person just to be a nice person.
Guest:It doesn't relate to what governs the universe.
Guest:To me, the two things are completely separate.
Guest:So I would never claim we know very little about the universe.
Guest:There might be a teenage alien running this.
Guest:computer simulation that we're all living in, but that has nothing to do with how I live my life.
Marc:That shit's crazy, right?
Marc:I won't do it.
Marc:No, I don't do it.
Marc:Yeah, it's crazy.
Marc:What am I going to waste my time with that?
Marc:I can't break it down that much to believe that.
Marc:Do I want to spend an hour with a person selling me on that idea that this is all hallucination or we're just part of some simulation?
Marc:Do I want to be convinced of that so I could do what?
Marc:What happens then?
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:That's why it's all theoretical.
Marc:No, but it adds anxiety.
Marc:Because if I get to a point where I'm like, wow, that makes sense.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, now what?
Guest:I think it's just interesting.
Guest:I mean, it doesn't actually change anything.
Guest:I'm still...
Guest:I'm still existing and I'm still feeling.
Guest:I think it's, I don't know.
Guest:It doesn't freak me out anymore.
Marc:I'm not freaked out by it.
Marc:I just don't have the time for it.
Marc:My brain won't do that anymore.
Guest:Well, you're busy.
Marc:I guess, but I mean, I think about things, but just not that.
Guest:Well, maybe you also subconsciously know that, or consciously, that if you start thinking about it, you're going to spin out.
Marc:No, but I'm more concerned about, you know, what is happening to...
Marc:our brains that are being sort of maneuvered by stimulus that diminishes our ability to think for ourselves, use our memory, and maintain our intention span.
Marc:I mean, I'm more concerned with my relationship with my phone.
Guest:Dude, it's all I discuss with my psychiatrist.
Guest:the phone no the phone shit he's on me about the phone shit the social media shit it's it's it's especially i don't know if you but i run i don't have adhd per se but i i have adhd tendencies i might have slight adhd and it's and it i feel the phone sending dopamine to my brain and just getting me addicted and making me dumb yeah
Marc:Well, it's your engagement with it.
Marc:The phone is like looking at good comments and bad comments.
Marc:It's a speedball.
Marc:My thing now is just like compulsively reading news.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:What are we doing?
Marc:We're talking about your life.
Marc:But what do you have?
Marc:What is your fucking problem?
Guest:Oh, I have, I guess, what's my diagnosis?
Guest:I have low-grade depression with varying anxiety.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know.
Guest:I have, like, low-grade depression with varying anxiety and, like, anxious and OCD tendencies with a little undercurrent of ADHD.
Marc:I don't know about the ADHD, but I have all the other ones.
Guest:Yeah, it used to be worse.
Marc:I have the exact same thing.
Marc:Minor OCD, that helps comfort people.
Guest:So OCD, the way I have it is different from the like, I'm going to wash my hands.
Guest:My OCD is all looping thoughts and it's all, it always ends in the fear that the OCD or the compulsive thought itself is going to ruin my life.
Guest:That the thought itself is going to attack.
Guest:Example.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Perfect example.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:All right, we're pitching Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.
Guest:The night before we pitch, I don't sleep at all.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:And it becomes this thing of, why aren't you going to sleep, you fucking bitch?
Guest:You know, go to sleep, go to sleep.
Guest:And I wake up.
Guest:That whole week, I have horrible insomnia.
Guest:And insomnia makes anything you have a lot worse.
Guest:I don't have it anymore.
Marc:I know you.
Guest:It's so bad.
Guest:So then the next time, so then I get over that.
Guest:But the next time I have insomnia, I happen to be in New York, it reminds me of the time that I had insomnia.
Guest:And it sends me to a bad place of worrying if I'm going to have bad insomnia again.
Marc:All right, like seeing the sunrise kind of shit.
Marc:Like, you know, like, I don't want to fucking...
Guest:I can't do this.
Guest:Well, also then obsession with you can't control when you go to sleep.
Guest:Sleep is the most fundamental thing.
Guest:But when you actually think about it, it's the sleep is the act of letting go.
Guest:It's the act of not controlling anything, which is crazy if you are someone who needs to control something like me.
Guest:And so I began to just spiral about sleep.
Guest:And then it began to kind of haunt my every waking moment where I wasn't thinking about what?
Guest:Even when I wasn't even worrying about the night, I was fearing the night.
Guest:Because you wouldn't be able to go to sleep.
Guest:Because I'm going to be alone.
Guest:I'm going to be alone with my thoughts.
Guest:And this is before I started meditating and shit.
Guest:I'm going to be alone with my thoughts.
Guest:I'm going to be alone with the fact that I can't get to sleep.
Guest:It's going to be terrible.
Guest:And it just began to kind of haunt the day until it was this overall feeling of dread.
Guest:And then I thought, oh my God, I'm always going to feel this feeling.
Guest:When is this feeling going to go away?
Guest:And then...
Guest:in the middle of it my boyfriend proposed in the middle of this thing that I was going through and I thought oh my god whenever I think of my boyfriend now I'm always going to think about this bad feeling that I had during this thing and it's going to ruin my relationship and it's going to attack everything and it just was this it becomes this trying to out think the anxiety and that's the form it takes and still takes is this feeling of
Guest:It feels like there's this dark thing that if I let it take over, it's just going to ruin everything, even though I know that's a hyperbolic thought.
Guest:But it feels like when I'm about to have a little anxiety spiral, it feels like I'm walking on the edge of a swimming pool and I'm fine.
Guest:But if I even dip my toe into the thought, if I even form the question, I'm done.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I have that.
Marc:It's dread.
Marc:yeah dread it's like existential dread that leads into my fear of failure right right but that's like that's just a manifestation of the anxiety like you know like yeah like it's yeah and it's not and it takes you out of the present it makes you live in your brain and i don't you know good for your boyfriend who's not your husband to to be able to to to sort of must he must ground you somehow because i mean if i mean i have similar things where
Marc:I've been just with age somehow or another.
Marc:I don't like I don't I know myself well enough to where I'm like, I'm not going to do that because I've gone through hypochondria.
Marc:I've gone through, you know, whatever the fuck it is where, you know, I do get panic, but usually there's some foundation for it, you know, in real life.
Marc:And I can spin out like that, but like it's not as hypothetical as it used to be.
Marc:So what happened, though, when you went in to pitch it?
Guest:I was fine because I'm a show pony.
Guest:It's always fine.
Guest:That's the thing.
Marc:You've got to lean on that.
Marc:I guess you're learning how to do that.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's always fine.
Guest:You're a professional, yeah.
Guest:It's never going to be what I'm fearing because I've spent 31 years doing this.
Guest:Right, exactly.
Guest:And so it's a matter of outsmarting it but not outsmarting it.
Marc:Do you ever think it's part of your process?
Marc:Have you gone down that road?
Marc:What would I do without this?
Marc:Like, there's got to be... No.
Guest:Because... I don't feel like myself when it's happening.
Marc:There's a different... But there's something comforting about it if you've been doing it all your life.
Guest:No, it feels like I'm trying to outsmart it and solve it.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:That's what it feels like.
Guest:It feels like I'm trying to solve something.
Guest:I'm trying to solve the unsolvable.
Guest:I'm asking questions that have no answers.
Marc:I know, but that particular pattern...
Guest:It's how my mind works, and it definitely relates to being creative.
Guest:I think it's the dark side of my creativity.
Marc:But don't you ever think like, oh, I don't know.
Marc:It sounds like your parents are okay.
Marc:Why are you such a control freak?
Guest:Well...
Guest:Remember when we were saying, I mean, here's the thing.
Guest:Let's just say there are, I can talk about my experiences, but when it comes to certain things, in general with my family, there are certain people I don't want to upset.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, how bad was it?
Guest:Everything's great.
Marc:Show pony.
Marc:What, are you going to sing a song now?
Guest:Everything is fine.
Marc:Okay, so you go to Tisch.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that's the hard school.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you didn't love it there?
Marc:Why?
Marc:What happened?
No.
Guest:Well, when you major in musical theater, first of all, everyone who majors in musical theater were all the leads of their high school plays.
Guest:So you get there and it's a bunch of other like silverback gorillas who are like, well, I was Svanteen.
Guest:Now I was Svanteen.
Guest:and also musical theater kids young musical theater kids are kind of the worst because they're all like comparing voices everything is like who's the best actor who's the best dancer and it's just like it's terrible and and it was also that i was immediately faced with people who were more talented than i was and that's terrifying when your whole self for real though or just i mean uh
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you look back on it and you think that?
Marc:Or do you look back on it and they just had more together?
Marc:I mean, you're pretty talented.
Marc:I mean, what would determine that?
Guest:But it's like a binary technique thing of this person's voice literally sounds better.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:And this person has more control over their instrument.
Guest:Whatever...
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:Whatever that means.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:And so there was a part of me that felt like I didn't fit in, that I was kind of tired of people's personalities.
Guest:And also then we started to, when you start to study musical theater, some of it is brilliant.
Guest:When musical theater is good, it's the best thing in the world.
Guest:When musical theater is bad, it's the worst thing in the world.
Guest:And I just began to, I don't know, I just, something didn't feel right.
Guest:And so I auditioned for the School Sketch Comedy Group and I got on.
Guest:And I very quickly fell in love with sketch comedy.
Guest:I mean, it was the quickest I've ever fallen in love with anything.
Guest:I immediately... I remember writing one of my first sketches on a lunch break at musical theater school on the floor in my ballet shoes.
Guest:It's all I suddenly wanted to do.
Guest:I became...
Guest:Obsessed and I think part of it was because it was a new skill.
Guest:I didn't have my ego wrapped up in it So I was okay to be on a group with a bunch of people who are more talented than I was because my ego wasn't wrapped up in being the best comedian So I was finally for the first time free to try my best at something Oh, yeah fail and be okay with that.
Guest:Yeah, and so in but in musical theater school I started to subconsciously not try
Guest:First of all, because I wasn't getting a lot of sleep.
Guest:I mean, I've had sleep problems since I was a little kid that I only in the past couple of years recently dealt with.
Guest:So I was getting five hours of sleep a night.
Guest:And so I was exhausted and kind of wigged out.
Guest:But also I wasn't trying because if I then wasn't good at a song, I could say to myself, well, I mean, if I wanted to, I could have done that.
Marc:Yeah, I used to do a joke about that.
Marc:Sort of like, I don't prepare because like...
Marc:If it goes well and you don't prepare, you're a fucking genius.
Marc:If it doesn't go well, you can just be like, no, I didn't prepare.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And it's so great when you don't prepare and it goes well.
Guest:Because then you start to tell yourself, well, that's just my process.
Guest:I don't memorize my lines.
Guest:That's just my process.
Marc:But the problem with that is you keep doing that and you keep having success.
Marc:At some point you realize, I'm the only one who thinks this is good.
Marc:There are people who are like, she's not really that good.
Marc:And you're like, but I'm so honest.
Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I took an on-camera acting class, and I was doing the thing where I hadn't prepared much, and it was just coming from Impulse.
Guest:And then I watched it, and it was garbage.
Guest:Absolute trash.
Guest:And I was like, oh, I need to start preparing shit.
Marc:But you were in it, though, right?
Marc:You felt like you were nailing it when you were doing it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because I was like, oh, it feels so true and so pure.
Yeah.
Guest:So what if I'm not getting the lines?
Guest:Doesn't matter.
Marc:That's an important hit to take.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So you like the improv and you do it.
Marc:And what'd you drop out?
Marc:Are you finished?
Marc:No, you finished.
Guest:No, I finished.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Marc:And then- You're not going to quit.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I mean, it was a weird thing where I was on the sketch group and-
Guest:there's a whole other thing but i i was the one of the only girls in the sketch group and i was really young i was a very young 18 like i hadn't drank or smoked or had sex and the older guys who were my directors started flirting with me and hitting on me as it happens and i got kind of unwittingly involved in this like love triangle uh that then because they were young too i was like 19 and they were 20 the improv group people
Guest:Yeah, the sketch group people.
Guest:I was supposed to be the director of the group, and because I got in this love triangle and fell in love with one of them, but the other one also loved me, and then I dumped one of them but continued to see the other, I got removed as director from my college sketch comedy group.
Marc:By them?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was like a defining moment for me because I think that...
Guest:The way I learned comedy for the first year or two was just doing, almost doing an impression of what those guys were doing.
Guest:And when this whole thing happened, I said, oh, okay.
Guest:So the mentors I thought who I trusted, who then wanted to fuck me and now they've completely turned on me.
Guest:I'm just going to do my own thing.
Guest:And that's when I started to want to combine musical theater and comedy.
Guest:It was only after that happened.
Guest:And I kind of rejected them as my mentors.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Oh, and then that's when you started to move towards the videos?
Guest:The videos came a couple years later.
Marc:How did you start to fuse them without them?
Marc:Did you start going to perform other places?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It was just a mental thing.
Guest:I took a musical theater writing class.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Guest:And then, this was after graduating, I wanted to have a show running at UCB.
Guest:Because that's the status symbol.
Guest:If you have a show running at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater...
Marc:In the basement of the supermarket?
Guest:Yeah, you're done.
Guest:You're in.
Guest:You're in.
Guest:You might as well be famous.
Guest:I mean, that's really how I saw it.
Guest:And I was doing a sketch.
Guest:I was working out the sketch show, and one of the sketches in it was a song about the movie Space Jam.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I wrote it with my friend, and I played it for my boyfriend, who's now my husband.
Guest:I've been with my husband for 10 years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I played it for my husband, and he went, you should just be doing this for the show.
Marc:Well, that's interesting, though.
Marc:You must have been one of the only people.
Marc:I don't know, but I don't, you know...
Marc:You're one of the kids.
Marc:I'm old.
Marc:I mean, but it seems that what you do, I've not really seen it in... I mean, were there other people doing musical comedy sketch shit?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:And it felt so obvious to me because it seemed like there was a gap in musical theater.
Guest:When I tried to find a comedy audition song, it was just these lame, lame songs, especially for women.
Guest:Either old ones or just like...
Guest:songs that were funny adjacent.
Marc:I think that also, like, you know, until Glee, it wasn't particularly popular anymore.
Right.
Guest:No, but I mean, I didn't know that.
Guest:And when you're in the musical theater community, it's always popular.
Guest:I mean, Glee's all, first of all, Glee's all covers.
Marc:But just, you know, cultural resonance outside of Broadway.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It just wasn't happening.
Guest:No.
Marc:Right.
Guest:No.
Guest:And so that's why I'm going for, I mean, even now with Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, it's still, it's a cult show.
Marc:Oh, in terms of who the people who love it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:When people love it, they love it.
Guest:But there are still a bunch of people who hear it's a musical and won't watch it.
Marc:Okay, let's not get there yet.
Marc:Okay, so he says you should only be doing this?
Guest:Not only, but he said for this sketch show, this is way more unique than just doing sketches.
Guest:So then I made my first musical sketch show and I just felt it click.
Guest:At UCB?
Guest:Yeah, and I fell in love with it and I thought, okay, I want to be my own kind of one-stop shop comedy person.
Guest:I want to be my, I want to write my own shit and star in my own shit.
Guest:And I want that to be, I want to be my own one person sketch group.
Guest:So I'd seen people doing internet sketches and I thought, okay, what can I do?
Guest:And I had a song that I'd written in college that I didn't know what to do with called Fuck Me Ray Bradbury.
Guest:It was when I was thinking of sketches to do and a song popped into my head and I said, oh, that could actually make a really great work.
Guest:first sketch as a music video.
Guest:And so I made it for $2,000 and not, cause you don't set out to make a viral video.
Guest:That doesn't make any sense.
Guest:I made a video that I thought would be a great comedy calling card and it went super viral and got me representation.
Marc:That was 2010.
Marc:2010.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I started this in 2009.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And but it's interesting that even then, though, I mean, it went viral and that brought you attention.
Marc:But that was like we started, even though YouTube had been around a bit and podcasting had been around a bit.
Marc:It was just there was this moment.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Where you could break out of it.
Marc:Now, of course, you have people that are specifically YouTube or only podcast or whatever, but there was a bit of a moment where you could break and you set that standard in a way.
Marc:So like hundreds of young people because of you are like, you just got to put the video up.
Guest:Well, and the cool thing, and the thing was, the thing that set me apart, I think, is because we were just coming out of, so the landlord Funny or Die sketch happened in, I want to say 2007, maybe 2006, and it kind of had this grainy home video quality to it.
Guest:And so most sketches at that time were that.
Yeah.
Guest:I had seen other people use great cinematography.
Guest:And there was the cinematographer in New York, Paul Rondeau, who was his one-stop shop.
Guest:He had all his own equipment.
Guest:And so when I wanted to do a music video, I thought, what if I make it look good like some of these other videos that I've seen?
Guest:So I think that when I released that music video, it was also unique in that it looked great.
Marc:great yeah it looks great and it looks professional yeah and that's just because i got it doesn't take much to do that right that's what people don't that's what that always gets me about podcasting it's like you just need a good mic man don't get the fucking snowball and sit it in the middle whatever but even now i mean the cameras yeah even on the phone right well now i mean the phones are better than we have a canon 70 the phone my husband's new phone is better
Marc:So then that's history.
Marc:So you got representation.
Guest:And that's history.
Marc:And you wrote a spec script.
Marc:But it took Crazy Ex-Girlfriend to really put the whole vision together.
Guest:Well, it was kind of a slow burn because I was a working... So after I got hired for my first gig... Writing.
Guest:For which I'm eternally grateful, by the way.
Guest:I was kvetching about it earlier.
Guest:But yeah, I'm eternally grateful for that.
Guest:I kept writing for TV.
Guest:I wrote for Robot Chicken.
Guest:You had Seth on here.
Guest:He's the fucking best.
Nice guy.
Guest:I just kept writing for TV and various award shows.
Guest:But then I was also... I did another UCB show of... Here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I kept doing music videos that I was paying... Money that I was paying for out of what I earned as a TV writer.
Guest:And so it was those videos that this woman, Aline Brosh McKenna saw...
Guest:Five years ago at this point.
Guest:And she is this big deal screenwriter.
Guest:She wrote The Devil Wears Prada.
Guest:I like that movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she called me in for a general meeting at CBS.
Guest:And she said, I want to write a musical TV show with you.
Guest:And I'd already pitched.
Marc:She found you?
Guest:A thousand percent.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:For the video show, again.
Guest:And no one could have... It wasn't my rep sending me around because no one had really... I was doing the musical thing and they knew it was good, but you can't... I'd pitch two musical TV shows.
Guest:No one gave a shit.
Marc:And you were doing relatively low-profile writing jobs.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you guys put this show together.
Guest:She finds you and you do... And she had the idea for a movie called Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we thought that would be a great show because she was saying that all of my videos were...
Guest:um there was always this moment of sadness they were all very they were out there but they were very emotional and so yeah that idea really worked and we developed it together and you had emotional sadness and emotional menace and then you get a great funny character actually it's very true it's dead on emotional sadness and emotional menace
Marc:so hot Dennis the emotional menace is less less of a trickster but he's more insidious yeah so in that and then the rest is like you know you did it's doing great you're doing what one more season one more season and you won a Golden Globe and a Critics Choice and another one
Marc:television critics association have you been to that one yeah i went yeah i did go that one and i like the sag awards that's the one that's the that's the golden goose i can't get oh i just liked being there the most i i did you know because like i'd interviewed a lot of the people and now i was there as an actor and i felt like i was part of a community it was nice and francis mcdormand came up to me and told me i love you on that show oh that's so cool and i'm like oh i kind of won i got
Guest:That's fucking awesome.
Marc:I won.
Guest:Though moments like that are where you really win.
Guest:I mean, the awards are wonderful, but the first person who emailed me after I won the Golden Globe was Carol Burnett.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:That was my win.
Guest:That was my Golden Globe.
Guest:Like, that's done.
Guest:That's all I need.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:And, you know, I watch the show, and I like it.
Marc:It's like, you know, because I'm the kind of person I am, I would probably categorize it as a guilty pleasure.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Well, dig into that.
Guest:Why?
Marc:Because I'd like to think that, I don't know if this show's really for me, but I enjoy it.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:Why would the show not be for you?
Marc:Cause you know, you're singing.
Guest:It's funny cause we get in, cause you're, I assume you've watched a couple episodes of season one.
Guest:Season three is all about, we get way more into mental illness and I have a suicide attempt and my character's diagnosed with borderline personality disorder.
Marc:You don't have that, do you?
Guest:No, I don't have borderline, but I have, I have, I know I have intimate knowledge of, I know people with it.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's rough.
Yeah.
Guest:It's really interesting.
Marc:That's why I could see that from the ones I've watched that that would be where it would go.
Marc:But you didn't have that arc set up early on, did you?
Guest:We knew something was going on.
Guest:The interesting thing about Borderline is it's a heightened, it's basically someone with no emotional skin.
Guest:It's someone who always has these, it feels like they have third degree burns.
Guest:They're so hypersensitive.
Guest:And so I have aspects of that.
Guest:We all do.
Guest:And it's stuff that we do just heightened, which which is what borderline is.
Guest:So we always knew she had heightened aspects of stuff that I'd had and other people had had.
Marc:But also truly incapable of real emotional connection.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And very black and white thinking.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And manipulative horror show.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the split and the splitting.
Guest:I've started to rewatch a little season one and I, I'm surprised.
Guest:We're like, Oh, Oh, she's ill.
Guest:Oh, she's very ill.
Guest:And then, you know, there's that character who keep, who keep wants to, I know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There's a character who keeps, you know, wanting to fuck her.
Guest:This character, Greg, I'm like, I,
Guest:Dude, dude.
Guest:And it's later revealed, spoiler alert, he's an alcoholic.
Guest:And in season two, he goes through a program.
Marc:I guess there's no reason I should... I forget, because even the show I'm on, Glow, that there's a lot of heavy shit going on, but because there's wrestling, you don't process the same way.
Marc:And because there's music, you're not processing... Because if I really think about the first few episodes, where you're basically sexually abusing that guy.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:that like it's like no this is yes horrible but oh she's singing and there's an and there's a sheen over it now here's a question i would pose to you not to get controversial is if you see both theoretically glow and crazy ex-girlfriend as things that you would call guilty pleasures right there are things that you theoretically enjoy i mean don't i mean i i think i was just being yeah no no sure put much thought into it but i wonder if there's a little bit of that that is because it's
Guest:shows created by and starring women and I'm not saying that it's you but I think that men see female content even if it's on a deep subconscious level as fluffy but I wonder generally about I think that's a good question because like I talked to a lot of dudes about Glow and they're like I wasn't gonna watch it yeah why and then why man because of that exactly yeah I mean that's not we didn't just crack a code no
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Oh, we've got it.
Guest:Sometimes men don't like women.
Guest:But what is, but why?
Marc:No, I just, I just think it's a relatability thing.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You know, I don't think it's, I'm sure there's levels of it that might be insidious, but I think a lot of it's sort of like, it's not for me.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like that might just be encultured and I don't even think it's misogynistic.
Guest:But the labeling, and I'm not saying this is necessarily you, but sometimes content that has women in it and is created by women and seems, quote unquote, female is labeled as fluff.
Guest:And you see.
Marc:Oh, I didn't think that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But you see that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you see that in every kind of aspect of art, things that take on things that are true for women.
Marc:My girlfriend's a painter and she, you know, she gets mislabeled like that.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:You know, that that that it's sort of it's lighter.
Marc:It's this.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it just, you know, it's just because it's not for the mainstream gaze.
Marc:I mean, we did or the market like they're determining it.
Marc:I mean, the market itself, the people that make those decisions.
Marc:are acting out of, you know, either, you know, it's a principle or whatever, or they believe the market is this way or that way.
Marc:But it's not always about like the audience.
Marc:You know, there's people making those decisions.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:You know, but nine times out of 10, those people, those people are male.
Marc:Sure, right, right.
Guest:But the interesting thing, I mean, you see we did it with entertainment.
Guest:Can I interrupt you some more?
Guest:Yeah, please, do it.
No, I'm kidding.
Guest:Tell me why I'm wrong.
Guest:But for years we've done it with entertainment that we see as, oh, well, that's for black people.
Marc:Right, no, I hear you.
Guest:And the way that you see like, oh, well, stuff that was on UPN or BET or Tyler Perry, well, that's fluff.
Guest:Like it's in the same way people sometimes think of female people.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:I never noticed that because I always think like it's either like, you know, maybe it's not for me, but I don't think it's fluff or it's for kids.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:It's either not for me.
Marc:It's either for kids or it's like, that seems to be a show that other people would enjoy who live that life.
Guest:I think that's one way to look at it, but I think there is also a labeling of anything that isn't the mainstream story is less legitimate.
Guest:It's less legitimate of a story and it's a niche product.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, everything's a niche now, so it's hard to make.
Guest:Well, exactly.
Guest:And that's why it's great.
Guest:And that's why Peak TV is so great.
Guest:That's what I'm really feeling is breaking out of what's legitimate, what isn't.
Guest:I mean, I think that everyone... I was at the Vanity Fair dinner for the Oscars.
Guest:Big shot.
Guest:Oh, I know, right?
Guest:And the only time people stopped talking, when Frances McDormand won was talking about inclusion writers, but when Jordan Peele won for Get Out, and when Get Out was maybe gonna win.
Guest:Because even a couple years ago, that movie wouldn't have been seen
Guest:as legitimately let alone that it was conceived by a comedian which comedies are always seen as less legitimate and get out's not a comedy but when you think about something like the idea of things not being as legitimate because they're not about a king learning not to stutter a white king learning not to stutter that wasn't a great movie what it wasn't a great movie i actually really love that movie
Marc:Nice.
Guest:I actually really love that movie.
Guest:But when I saw that movie, I went, well, that's a prototypical Oscar movie.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I think that those lines are starting to blur, and that includes content created by women for women.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And it's refreshing.
Guest:Good.
Guest:But that's why I take umbrage with the term guilty pleasure.
Guest:In the case you're saying, and it makes sense because it's musicals, but I think that that sometimes is code for seeing something meant for a specific group of people.
Marc:It's like you said, like your inverted, not inverted misogyny.
Guest:Internalized misogyny?
Marc:Well, I think that it's a version of that.
Marc:You know, that, like, they can't... And it's also a version of... Some of it might just have to be with posturing.
Marc:You know, like, you know, because I know, you know, many sort of evolved people that, you know, don't necessarily want to cop to liking Journey.
Marc:You know, the band.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:So, like, I think some of it just has to do with not having the balls or the... To support something like that.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Like, I love the band Fun.
Guest:I know a lot of people who are like, ugh.
Marc:Antonoff's band?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love that band.
Marc:He's kind of a pop wizard.
Guest:Yeah, I know some other people who are like, they just generally don't like a pop sound.
Marc:I like Steel Train.
Marc:I like his other band, the Grateful Dead band that he was in for.
Marc:Oh, right.
Marc:Yeah, no, exactly.
Marc:I think some of it's that.
Marc:But we don't have to solve this now.
Marc:I think we should take a few minutes.
Marc:I hear your husband made a movie.
Guest:Nice segue.
Guest:Yeah, my husband made a movie and I'm in it and he co-wrote it and it's great.
Marc:I watched about half and it wasn't because it was bad.
Marc:I just, you know, I didn't get the fucking screener till this morning for some reason.
Marc:don't don't go yelling at anybody it's good that i only watch half because it is sort of a suspense you know it's a murder mystery and uh i can't spoil it because i don't fucking know what happened yet great but i like adam paulie a lot and you're great yeah and it looked great it was shot nicely he directed it yeah he directed it and then co-wrote it with um with the guy who plays uh duane who has that chin beard that's my husband's writing partner oh really yeah
Marc:But it looks great.
Marc:And I've seen a lot of indie movies that are comedies and like that you're just like, oh, these characters aren't going to hold up.
Marc:There's a problem with comedies of any kind where, you know, they don't consider the integrity of the character and it gets diminished for the comedy.
Guest:Yeah, that's very important to both me.
Guest:And that's something that my husband and I definitely connect on is not selling out emotion for a joke.
Marc:Yeah, no, and it looked great.
Marc:And is that Billy Eichner for a minute?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He plays the rabbi?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you have rabbis in your family?
Guest:My cousin is a rabbi, yes.
Marc:Progressive rabbi?
Guest:He's a progressive conservative rabbi, so whatever that means.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:So not reform.
Guest:Where's a yarmulke but supports gay marriage?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, okay.
Marc:But yeah, no, I think it looks great.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I appreciated the long sort of pan shot at the beginning.
Marc:What do you call it?
Marc:A tracking shot?
Guest:Tracking shot, yeah.
Marc:I know that he was like, you know, I'm going to do this.
Guest:You could tell that he was like, and this is the tracking shot.
Marc:Yeah, this is like the opening tracking shot, like the Orson Welles' Touch of Evil, and then the player did a riff on it.
Marc:This is my riff on the tracking shot.
Marc:That really has nothing to do with the rest of the film.
Guest:And here's the thing I'll say about that.
Guest:It actually does.
Guest:The tracking shot comes back.
Guest:The idea of the tracking shot does come back visually.
Guest:It's called back at the end of the film.
Marc:Oh, so bookends.
Marc:So it's pretty fucking great.
Marc:You spoiled it.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:You spoiled it for the film nerds.
Guest:Spoiler alert.
Marc:You're going to get into the tracking shot talk.
Guest:That opening image is going to come back in the closing image.
Marc:I liked it.
Marc:Yeah, it's funny.
Marc:And I think Adam Pauly's funny.
Marc:I think he's like, I've seen him in other things.
Marc:I've seen him in Baina's movies.
Guest:Yeah, so he used to be writing partners with my husband and Doug, who's in the movie.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, and the three of them were a sketch writing team called Chubby Skinny Kids.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And now Pally's kind of gotten, he has this acting career, and so they wrote this part for him.
Marc:Yeah, I feel like I've seen him grow up or something.
Guest:Yeah, and he's a really, the thing is, he kind of has this irreverent persona.
Guest:He just did that thing at the Shorty Awards.
Guest:We took down the Shorty Awards, which I thought was hilarious.
Guest:But in person, he's also very, very kind and very sweet.
Guest:Jewish guy?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Jersey, maybe?
Guest:Yeah, Jersey.
Guest:Lived in Jersey by way of Chicago, I think.
Guest:And he has three kids, and he is married to his high school sweetheart.
Marc:That's wild.
Marc:And this takes place in Long Island?
Marc:Is it Long Island?
Guest:Yeah, my husband's from Long Island.
Marc:But he's not a Jew, right?
Guest:Oh, super Jew.
Guest:He was raised conservadox.
Guest:He was raised to not celebrate Halloween.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, he went to yeshiva until he was 14.
Marc:Well, look at you marrying a Jew.
Guest:I know, it's terrible.
Guest:It's terrible because we all descend from 350 people eight years ago.
Guest:Eight years, 800 years ago.
Marc:I like eight years.
Marc:Eight years ago.
Marc:This is one of those conspiracy theories?
Guest:Yeah, eight years ago.
Marc:It all happened eight years ago.
Marc:Eight years ago, the fossils came up.
Marc:In the assimilation we're living, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, well, that could have happened.
Guest:We could have been created five seconds ago.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:He's falling asleep.
Guest:But, yeah, no, he was raised super Jew.
Guest:I mean, you know, he and I both dated non-Jews, and I don't know.
Guest:We're both ashamed of it.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Shame.
Guest:I'm not shame.
Guest:It's just as much as like, oh, we're so progressive and cool.
Guest:We could have done so much more instead of make his parents happy.
Guest:His parents are thrilled.
Marc:And it's like, of course, everyone's thrilled.
Guest:Everyone's thrilled.
Guest:The state of Israel is thrilled.
Marc:Really?
Marc:You don't know.
Guest:No, no, we've been to Israel.
Guest:They're thrilled.
Marc:Oh, they are.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:They're hoping you're going to come there, send money.
Guest:Oh, we went there right before the election and everyone said to us, this is weird because a lot of Israelis support Trump, but they said, maybe you come here and you make TV and television.
Guest:And we're like, oh, we're pretty happy in America.
Guest:And they go, with Trump coming, you may have to come here.
Guest:They were almost psyched for another Holocaust.
Guest:It was very weird.
Marc:You might have to come.
Marc:So that's the new pitch.
Marc:It's not like we're always here for all Jews.
Guest:It's like, guess what?
Guest:Guess what?
Guest:It's coming.
Guest:In Hebrew, I think the show is called which is crazy ex-girlfriend.
Guest:But I think it literally means like insane person I used to date.
Marc:Oh, and they like it in Israel?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Yeah, Jews in general seem to like it.
Marc:Okay, good.
Marc:Well, then I'm glad you're making them happy.
Marc:That's no small task.
Marc:Oh, I know.
Guest:It was great talking to you.
Marc:It was great talking to you, too.
Marc:Did you feel satisfied?
Marc:Did we do what we needed to do?
Guest:For plugging the movie at the end?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:A couple of Jews sitting around talking.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:Everybody okay with that?
Marc:This is where the guitar is gonna be soon.
Marc:Boomer lives!