Episode 910 - Mandy Stadtmiller
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:Oh my God, what's happening?
Marc:It's me, Mark Marin.
Marc:This is my show, WTF.
Marc:I'm still abroad.
Marc:And today on the show, I talked to Mandy Stattmiller about her new book, Unwifable.
Marc:It's available wherever you get your books now.
Marc:This was an interview that actually took place in the new garage.
Marc:We're sort of into the new interviews.
Marc:We've had a few.
Marc:It's happening.
Marc:I just got to Dublin, and it was a whirlwind of food.
Marc:I've been here 10 minutes, it seems.
Marc:I got here.
Marc:Sarah and I got here a little early.
Marc:We were swept into the restaurant by the guy in charge of the hotel where we're staying.
Marc:He's the guest services guy.
Marc:He said he'll take care of our lunch.
Marc:All I know is within the last, I don't know, I'd like to say 17 minutes, I believe I ate a soft shell crab, a Mediterranean salad, a piece of soda bread, a piece of Guinness bread with butter, slathered with butter, and then we had some tea.
Marc:And then there was like a three-minute break, and then we got to the room, and there were scones in the room.
Marc:So I had scones, clotted cream, jam, and some other tea biscuit type of things that were sort of...
Marc:questionable because i didn't know what the fuck they were but i didn't stop i didn't stop me from eating them one of them was some sort of rice ball like a deep fried ball of rice pudding that you injected jam into when was when have you ever heard that so now i'm all jacked up on sugar and tea and shame what i missed on the menu was something called um duck fat roasties
Marc:I don't know what that is, do you?
Marc:But are you like me in that if you saw that on a menu, duck fat roasties, you'd probably order it even if you didn't fucking ask what it was.
Marc:I was very close to it, but I said, are they fries?
Marc:And he said, no, they're potatoes roasted in duck fat.
Marc:I'm like, okay, yes, I'll have some of those.
Marc:And I think I ate probably the equivalent of six potatoes.
Marc:Maybe I'm exaggerating.
Marc:Yeah, I'm probably exaggerating.
Marc:But you get the drift.
Marc:I don't need to make this entire intro about food.
Marc:This has just been my last hour since I've got to Dublin.
Marc:And I'm incapacitated because I'm full of food.
Marc:We're here for four days.
Marc:I'm excited about it.
Marc:There's things I want to do.
Marc:There's more things I want to eat.
Marc:I have a show tonight.
Marc:There's still a few tickets available at Vicar Street.
Marc:Not many tickets.
Marc:So if you are in Dublin and you're hearing this, I believe you can still get tickets.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Amsterdam, I wanted to tell you about it.
Marc:Cause it was a, it was, you know, it's, I love the city.
Marc:It's a beautiful city.
Marc:It's an old city, but it feels a little, a little, a little seedy, which is not bad.
Marc:The show was great.
Marc:I had a great time with the people that came out.
Marc:I chose, I chose not to do sad Jew things.
Marc:I did not go to Anne Frank's house.
Marc:I did not go to the, the, the Jew museum, the Jewish museum.
Marc:I did.
Marc:I, you know, it was either, do I want to be, do I want to do the sad Jew stuff or do I want to go on a boat?
Marc:So feeling guilty, I thought there was probably the possibility that that if I didn't do the sad Jew stuff, that I would feel guilty.
Marc:Then I'd be a sad Jew on a boat, a pensive Jew, maybe looking upward, you know, just floating around Amsterdam's canals, sad Jew on a boat, which I discussed in my Amsterdam show.
Marc:There was a lot of improvising.
Marc:The guy who opened for me, this guy, Adam Fields, did a lovely job.
Marc:And he hooked me up with a guy who's actually a comic, but also owns a boat company business.
Marc:This guy, Neil Robinson, and his partner, Jesse Cohen, they have a boat business.
Marc:Those damn boat guys.
Marc:That's the name of their boat business.
Marc:D.A.M.
Marc:Get it?
Marc:Like Amsterdam.
Marc:Nice guys.
Marc:They offered to take us out on the canals.
Marc:Just me and Sarah.
Marc:And they drove us around.
Marc:And it was fortunate that the pickup spot was right across from the Anne Frank's house.
Marc:So I did see the house from the outside.
Marc:but i i did not i maybe is it am i a bad jew for not doing the sad jew stuff i i'm not gonna forget i'm not gonna forget never forget i'm not forgetting i'm not i'm not trivializing i just i just didn't do it we chose to walk around take a boat ride it was proactive all right i see now like now i feel i don't know
Marc:Mandy Stepmiller is on the show today.
Marc:She is a writer.
Marc:She's written for many things.
Marc:She's written for New York Magazine, XO Jane.
Marc:Oh, she's also known for her dating column in the New York Post called About Last Night.
Marc:Now she's written a book, Unwifable.
Marc:And she talks about me a little bit in it.
Marc:And we talk about that.
Marc:So that's compelling, isn't it?
Marc:So this is me and Mandy Stepmiller talking back in the garage.
Marc:I'm in Dublin.
Marc:This is happening in the past across the ocean.
Marc:Yeah, this is the half-done garage.
Marc:Not even half-done.
Marc:I'm just trying to make it sound right.
Marc:But you're among the first few guests in the new space.
Guest:That's really, really cool.
Guest:Is it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, the old one, you know, legend.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But this is great because you're closer to... It's good to put your life above your legend.
Guest:Yeah, is it?
Guest:Yeah, don't you think?
Marc:Well, I'm having a weird time.
Marc:I love this place, but it is a big change, and it's weird.
Marc:It's been fine, but yeah, and I thought, yeah, it is good.
Marc:It's a good way to put it.
Marc:Life above your legend.
Guest:Life above your legend.
Marc:What, am I going to stay in that garage for the rest of my life just because it's the place that the thing happened first?
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:You build the next part of the story in a place that is better for you personally, so...
Marc:That seems like a theme.
Guest:Yeah, don't you think?
Marc:Well, I think that's what you wrote your book about.
Guest:Pretty much, yeah.
Marc:Like, I read parts of it, but I didn't want to... I'd rather... No, whatever you want to talk about.
Marc:...talk about the story than... Because I'm trying to remember...
Marc:You know, obviously no one likes to get an email saying, here's a passage from a book about me where I fucked you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I just want to make sure you're okay with it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, I said that I would, I took certain people out because I didn't want to, I just don't want to be that person.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And...
Marc:So you took him out without even asking?
Marc:You're just sort of like, I'm not going to do that to that person?
Marc:No, no, no.
Guest:If they said, I don't feel comfortable, then I... There was one, when I talked to Jonathan Ames, he... He got prickly?
Guest:He weirded out?
Guest:Yeah, and I mean, my feeling was that...
Guest:When you are I didn't I didn't put him in a in a light where he did anything wrong.
Guest:I think the whole book was right.
Guest:Laughing at myself and making myself the asshole.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So tricky with memoir, though, isn't it?
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Marc:I did that, and I threw some people under the bus in a way, but I didn't think I did.
Marc:It was my dad, but I thought, well, this is my side of the story, and I have a right to it, but boy, he was mad at me for years.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My sister, she disputed to the death certain things.
Guest:And I took those things out.
Guest:And I mean, it wasn't.
Marc:Strange, right?
Guest:Critical to the story.
Guest:Right.
Marc:It's weird how memories, you know, don't like, you know, someone else's perception of the same event is just like not the same.
Guest:Yeah, well, I mean, and that's why I tried to show everyone.
Guest:The only person I didn't show was my ex-husband, just because I just felt like...
Guest:Why?
Marc:You don't want to engage with him, probably.
Guest:Yeah, pretty much.
Guest:And he's a totally fine person.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, there's a reason you marry someone in the first place.
Guest:But yeah, I didn't want to get into all of that because some people have the ability, and I mean, and he probably still will, where you can write an email to someone and it just eviscerates you at your cellular level.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, it's weird.
Marc:Like I, well, I mean, my point was like, I'm not, you know, I, I, when you sent me that and I read it and you said, there's an option where, you know, I don't mention your name, but then I read it.
Marc:I'm like, no, you know, like if that, that's not bad.
Marc:That's what happened.
Marc:Why am I going to be a dick about it?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, that's very that's very that's very cool of you.
Guest:And I and I it makes me respect people who tend to open up about their own lives when they aren't just super intensely control freaky about always controlling the narrative no matter what.
Marc:I was just trying to put it together.
Marc:I mean, like, I know this is an awkward start.
Marc:It's not really awkward, but it was on my mind.
Marc:But I know that this book is about, you know, sort of your journey from divorce through this fucking booze festival that you had of self-hate and fun.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then onward into recovery and into a good relationship.
Guest:Yeah, kind of...
Guest:Feral whore.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Stops being feral whore.
Marc:I was trying to remember how it all happened.
Marc:Like, did you interview me and then ask me to be in the pilot thing?
Guest:Right.
Marc:I don't remember what happened.
Marc:Did you write it in the book?
Marc:I read it.
Guest:No, I didn't include all the things.
Guest:I had to cut thousands and thousands of words.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I knew you knew my friends I had.
Marc:Like, I didn't know you, but I don't know how.
Guest:Well, I mean, I can tell you exactly because I think it's an interesting example of how people can meet people that they admire.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which is, I'll just go through it really quickly.
Guest:That's all right.
Guest:We have time.
Guest:I'm in...
Guest:I'm in Chicago and I'm in a PR job.
Guest:And during the day, all I do is watch comedy online while I'm writing.
Marc:This is before you moved to New York.
Guest:Before I moved to New York.
Guest:And one of the, you and Taylor Negron are the only two people who, when I saw them, I then looked them up immediately.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And I think I was watching something of you on Conan.
Guest:And so I joined the email list.
Guest:My email list?
Guest:Your email list.
Guest:And then cut to years later when I'm at the New York Post and I get your email saying you're doing something with Janine Garofalo.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I'm a huge Janine Garofalo fan.
Guest:And so I asked the Post if I could shoot some video of you guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I went and I did that and they put up a little New York Post video.
Guest:And then I was working on a story about stalking exes of exes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And in terms of, you know, seeing who.
Marc:Who they're fucking.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then so I quoted you.
Guest:That joke.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For that piece.
Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then I was out in L.A.
Guest:and I had a good meeting with HBO and we talked about doing, yeah, some kind of show inspired by my life.
Guest:And so I just was like, I've got to shoot something.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And yeah, I reached out to you to play the role of my boyfriend who I ended the relationship by...
Guest:fucking two italian pilots that i met on the street that's a true story yeah yeah yeah i'm not very good at dealing with emotions i just i just suddenly everything comes up and then i do something like that and i'm trying to be better about that yeah so you so you emailed me
Guest:I think I called you and you were like, yeah, okay.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I think you were like, this girl might be, I don't know, whatever.
Guest:What can it hurt?
Marc:I remember I checked you out because you knew comics.
Marc:You somehow were integrated in the community.
Marc:I know in the book now how you met everybody.
Marc:So we go to your house.
Marc:We shoot the thing where it gets a little crazy in the shooting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because we got to make out.
Guest:Right, yeah, because you were playing my boyfriend and the little student who was shooting it.
Guest:She's like, now slap her ass.
Guest:Now, you know, yeah.
Guest:Give her the shocker.
Guest:I mean, she didn't say that, but like it was just.
Marc:It got real, no boundaries real quickly.
Fuck.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it was... Do you still have that tape?
Guest:I do, yeah.
Guest:I do have the tape.
Guest:I do have the tape, yeah.
Guest:How does it look?
Guest:I mean, it's funny.
Guest:My body definitely looks tighter.
Guest:I think you look the exact same.
Guest:You know, it's a... Yeah, so...
Marc:But yeah, so that, okay, so then we do that, we make out fake, and then we decide, well, that felt good, let's make out real.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And then you came out to Queens.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I remember that was quite a trip, and you were a little drunk, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, not, you know, I mean, just fun drunk.
Marc:Right, and then we had sex, and you told me to, this is a funny beat in the book, actually.
Guest:Thanks.
Marc:And I wish I remembered it better.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:But you told me to slap you, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So I did.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And then we had sex one more time.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And you were sober.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then I slapped you again and you're like, what the fuck are you doing?
Marc:And I'm like, what are you talking about?
Marc:I thought.
Guest:Yeah, I just, I. Yeah.
Guest:Boy, is that ever an illumination into drunk sex versus sober sex.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I'm not a slapper, really.
Guest:No.
Guest:No, and I'm not an ask me to.
Guest:I think I just, I think I wanted to like show that, like, look how interesting I am.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, and.
Marc:Well, that seems to be sort of through the through line of the book that, you know, the two, you know, what, you know, kind of unmasking yourself, right?
Guest:Yeah, very much so.
Marc:So, like, what is the whole journey of it?
Marc:Because before we get into the journey, are you sober now?
Marc:You got sober?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, I'm seven years, yeah.
Marc:Seven years?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, 2010.
Marc:Congratulations.
Guest:Oh, thank you.
Marc:That's pretty amazing.
Guest:Yeah, it's a big life difference.
Guest:It's everything.
Guest:And, you know, I have to say, and I have asked to be, you know, slapped in sex sober since then.
Marc:Well, I mean, but that's fine.
Guest:Yeah, no, no, but I was going to say, it makes it,
Guest:exciting it makes it i guess i just want to give a little like psa advertisement for sobriety that you know the sex oh yeah you can be very dirty in sobriety yeah because you're so aware it's almost like you are on a drug yeah but that's that that can become a problem
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, right, with the whole section.
Guest:If you replace it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, which is kind of what I did after, initially.
Marc:So when did you get sober?
Marc:Like right after I saw you?
Marc:Like 2000 and what?
Guest:Yeah, June 2010.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I got you right pre-bottom.
Marc:yeah oh great yeah yeah well what I remember at least you weren't my bottom no no no I wasn't it couldn't have not with two times I'm sure I'm sure that I am someone's bottom you know where I yeah that's always just such an interesting question what did I do yeah well you could probably if it really was that eventually they'll reach out to make an amends of some kind yeah yeah I did those during the book because I had never done my fourth step and I was just so consumed with
Guest:resentment and just toxic anger and self-pity.
Guest:When you got sober?
Guest:Well, I mean, sure, when I got sober, but also during the course of... I wrote this book over the past year, and there was a time when I just was... I was having to go through all these historical documents of emails and voice recordings and videos.
Guest:You kept everything, clearly.
Guest:You had text.
Guest:Yeah, I've always kind of had that mindset, and so I...
Marc:What mindset's that?
Marc:I'm going to need this.
Marc:I'm going to need this shit.
Guest:Well, I think the mindset that the one thing people have always responded to me in terms of my writing is when I write about my life.
Marc:Evidence of your life needs to be kept.
Guest:Yeah, which is so narcissistic.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:It's natural.
Marc:I mean, like a lot of times you want that stuff and you don't know where to find it.
Marc:You know, it's weird how much you do have saved, even if you don't know you have saved.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like there's texts where you thought you threw them away and you're like, oh, no, I've got all this shit from a decade ago.
Guest:Well, and now sometimes if someone texts me something that pisses me off, I just, I delete the whole thread because it's like a living thing in my phone.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But then it's still there.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Marc:Like if you text them, like it all comes right back.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You can never get rid of anything.
Marc:It's kind of scary, but I guess it's good, but it's weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:All that shit is out there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You could unabomber yourself and go off the grid.
Guest:People are doing it.
Marc:But so what you were filled with resentment while you were writing it?
Guest:Yeah, because I just felt like, oh, I never, this person doesn't understand the context of this.
Marc:Oh, when you were reaching out to people, you mean?
Guest:uh no no even before just when i was so like and i would give this advice to anyone who works in a corporate job you can export your mailboxes just find a tech person because a lot of times you lose all right when you know years exactly and so that's how i had a lot of my post stuff as i had done that and so if i'm if i was looking through um
Guest:Just emails from someone who maybe had cultivated me to be their best friend because they thought I could help them in their career by a post placement or whatever.
Guest:And then, you know, change their attitude, whatever it was that caused resentment or, you know, just guys, whatever.
Guest:I just, my mood, because, you know, so I got married to Pat Dixon, who's a comic, and he was the one who suggested it when I was writing because it was interfering with our lives.
Guest:I was just, you know, sitting there crying or taking out my anger on him.
Guest:Going through this stuff.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And when I did it, I just, like, in an hour, I wrote out
Guest:300 different resentments like I was like Jesus Christ you know yeah it's weird how how much you carry inside yourself oh yeah it's just like it like it just eats at you makes you all tight and fucked up in the head it's hard and you take it out on other people that's what I do I mean yes yeah
Marc:Yeah, because you can only take so much out on yourself before it just kind of flows over.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Give yourself a break.
Marc:Ruin someone else's life.
Guest:Yeah, it's like you want to infect people with what you feel.
Guest:You become a toxic human being.
Marc:Right, because you're not letting it go or you're not being honest with yourself or you're not, you know, processing it.
Marc:Well, I remember when the one thing I do remember, like, and I wasn't even drunk, but I remember that small, your small apartment.
Marc:I remember hanging out with you, but I do remember you were like hostily sexy.
Marc:Like you were hostile.
Marc:Like, you know, there was like, it's just not, it's not, I'm not, it's like.
Guest:Oh, no, no.
Guest:I mean, it's a very, very cool turn of phrase, you know.
Marc:But you know what I mean?
Marc:Like, I remember you being like, you know, like I knew you were angry.
Marc:I don't know at what, but I like, I felt like, you know, I think we had fun, but there were moments where I'm like, is this enough?
Marc:I mean, what else can I do?
Marc:Do I need to get.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like you were sort of using me to beat you up somehow.
Marc:Sexually.
Guest:Oh, very much so.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:And I tried to, I mean, because I tried to make that clear when I wrote about sexual encounters that were kind of sketchy or abusive, that it was a joint effort.
Guest:Because, I mean, there are times when, I mean, I wrote about losing my virginity in the book, and that was...
Guest:I wouldn't say I had a whole lot of culpability for that because I was 15 and I was what I was.
Guest:I had never really drank.
Guest:I got blackout drunk.
Guest:But as an adult, I had been in the world and I wasn't being manipulated.
Guest:I wasn't being taken advantage of a lot of times.
Guest:It was...
Guest:Yeah, I wanted someone to debase me because that's what my Pavlovian association was with sex.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And we know you track that in the book.
Marc:Like, I mean, where you grew up here?
Marc:I grew up in San Diego.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you're what's the story down there?
Marc:Both your folks still down there?
Guest:Yeah, they're both down there.
Guest:And I have kind of a weird, dysfunctional family.
Guest:My dad is a blind Vietnam vet.
Guest:Did he lose his eyes there?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He lost his eyesight in Vietnam when he was 21 in 1968.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:has kind of like a rageaholic frontal lobe injury that leads to a lot of unpredictable behavior.
Guest:And then my mom is severely depressed and has obsessive compulsive disorder, so has a thing where she has to wash her hands.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I guess the fact that he's blind in a rager is a little bit comforting in the sense that... That's hilarious.
Marc:You can sort of get out of the way if you need to.
Guest:I always wanted my dad to just like me and approve of me.
Guest:And I think I definitely was just one of those...
Guest:I think Wayne Fetterman has some joke about having benefited a lot from women's daddy issues and wanting to go back and thank the fathers.
Marc:I used to do a joke about that, about a business card resolving daddy issues since 1989.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:But they don't get resolved.
Marc:That's not going to do it.
Guest:Well, I think that I have experiences in my family that are somewhat similar to yours.
Guest:And I feel like Pat has experiences too.
Guest:I think this must be a commonality for a lot of people in entertainment is you don't ever get the...
Guest:Great job, kid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm really, really impressed.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If anything, it starts to become a weird kind of sadistic mindfuck.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sort of like, yeah, okay, you know, like there's a tone to it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Or they pretend like they don't know what you did.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Or like it's not that important.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or, yeah, my sister's reaction was to my book advance, well, you're going to have to pay taxes on that.
Right.
Guest:And I was just like, you know, bravo, hats off.
Guest:I had a interview with Artie Lang that I was proud of recently.
Guest:And my dad has told me to always call him and tell him when I have something in the Daily Beast so that he can then listen to it on his blind person reader or whatever.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I did that as he asked me to.
Guest:And after that, his reaction was, that took me a long time to read.
Guest:And I and I and I and I tweeted that back at the New Yorker TV writer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she said, you know, Bravo.
Guest:Excellent.
Guest:Neg.
Marc:Emily.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Emily.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which I I there's something about just other people acknowledging that.
Guest:that that is a dynamic and that you're not just a crazy person.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That can be helpful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because when you have that, when you grow up with that, you assume even good things that people say are somehow loaded.
Marc:Like, I, I can't take a compliment without thinking like, what, what are you, you know, like, so it is hard to tell, but those are pretty clear.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, when, when,
Marc:But with somebody who I have a relationship with or I've decided doesn't like me or I decided is judging me, even if they earnestly say, hey, that was great, I'm like, uh-huh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But not as much anymore.
Guest:I just have different levels for people and I restrict how I take in whatever they're saying so that I can kind of protect my heart and head.
Guest:So it's like I have certain people who are in the –
Guest:sadistic frenemy but yet they're wildly intelligent categories so I keep them around but I know that they're always going to be a little bit poisonous and then you have the people who you know don't have some agenda and aren't playing games and then you have Al-Anon meetings for the rest keeping boundaries when you grow up with rage and weirdness and no boundaries it's horrendous
Marc:It's horrendous.
Marc:There are some people, I'm pretty good with angry people with the boundaries.
Marc:I know when somebody's like, no, fuck, I don't need to deal with that at all.
Marc:But needy people, that's a whole other different thing.
Marc:They can crawl right under my fucking skin.
Guest:Well, how so?
Guest:I mean.
Marc:Well, just like, you know, some people are very kind of like, I can feel when somebody's sad and needy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like, I can't, if someone's just an asshole or a douchebag or some, you know, over, you know, compensating alpha dude, but like I see him and we're around and they're friends kind of, I have, you know, I can hold that boundary.
Marc:But if someone's just exuding like sad neediness, lostness, like I feel it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Like I feel it like, oh God, like I almost get mad at them.
Yeah.
Guest:But does that do you tend to go for women like that?
Guest:I mean, do you have?
Guest:No.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:That's what I was wondering is like what your experience are.
Marc:Intimate experiences?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, when you say it gets into your skin, is it because that person?
Guest:It's my dad.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:I see.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He was just always sort of like, you know, sad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I always say that my dad gets kind of like a misery boner, you know, like just cannot wait to say.
Guest:And I mean, he's had the heart.
Guest:Like, I always feel like I have to do a long qualification.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:People listen and they're just like, what an asshole to be talking about in anything but hero worshiping tour terms.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:this guy, but I mean, you don't know until you know.
Guest:But yeah, just he, I mean, when I told him that I was getting married and I'm 39 and every conversation as a woman when you're in your 30s is, well, are you seeing it?
Guest:Is there any possibility?
Guest:And so you kind of think this is a slam dunk
Guest:This is slam dunk news.
Guest:And yeah, my dad said, I just don't want to see you get hurt.
Guest:And I got so... By anybody but me.
Guest:And I got... Very interesting, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, very interesting.
Guest:And I got really upset.
Guest:And then he just started screaming and saying, well, why don't you give me a script?
Guest:I'm sick of being the family's asshole.
Guest:And he got off the phone and then my mom...
Guest:I said, oh, you know, dad.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, good codependent.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She very much is.
Guest:I mean, she is a fascinating woman.
Guest:She is.
Guest:She is hilarious.
Guest:She is one of the just driest, funniest people I've ever met.
Guest:And.
Guest:She had me one time type up her essay for one of her continuing credits to be a teacher.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And she was having to study, I think, like microcosm and macrocasm microcosm and macrocasm in.
Guest:school teaching areas education in education yeah and so the line in there that was really revealing she was writing about choices in her life she started out by saying I married a blind man so I would never have to be alone she literally just wrote that and
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:And I mean, part of you kind of respects that self-awareness, and then part of you is just... She would always be needed.
Guest:Yeah, she would always be needed.
Guest:And the other interesting thing about my parents is... She married him after he got back?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People love.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That is everyone is super interested in that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She actually cut off a engagement to a man who was super normal with both eyeballs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just, you know, an upstanding guy in Washington state.
Guest:And she cut it off when she met my dad because.
Marc:She got a winner.
Guest:Well, I mean, he is very charismatic.
Guest:And I will I will say there is something about that alpha war energy and the fact that he I mean, he just he really shouldn't have survived.
Guest:It was 13 hours of surgery to get him.
Marc:Do you get shot in the head?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He got shot twice in the face and.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:And yeah.
Guest:So there's something there's that kind of, you know, X factor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think about people like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Was he a drinker, too?
Guest:Well, so he didn't drink for a long time because he has a metal plate in his head.
Marc:And so the classic metal plate Vietnam vet in the head guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And and by the way, everyone in my family, I feel like above else.
Guest:worships comedy uh-huh and and and funny right so that is the one thing i love about them yeah about you know because like it works everything we're saying they would enjoy good you know yeah and it just that to me that's a very special thing yeah definitely so um it's it's a it's a pleasant way to avoid feelings
Guest:actually that is yeah that's something pat has taught me which is weird because i just i thought he was going to be just another dick comic and the fact that he had all these years of therapy and sobriety and didn't like little stupid jokes being made when you're in the middle of a real moment sure it was like what right what are you talking no that's what we do to get past it yeah um just bury it more with funniness
Guest:Yeah, but so my dad was adopted, and he was given up for adoption because his birth mother was an alcoholic cocktail waitress who had an affair with a married man, and then his adoptive parents were both alcoholics also.
Marc:This guy's a triple winner, huh?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:One, two, and then Vietnam.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So he got another doctor, I don't know when it was, like 10 years ago or something, and he said, no, you can drink, just not liquor.
Guest:And so, yeah, my parents share.
Marc:Like beer?
Guest:Like wine, they share wine.
Marc:So no hard liquor because he knew that would escalate quickly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know what kind.
Guest:I don't know how the whiskey plus metal plate.
Marc:Oh, it was something like that.
Guest:I mean, that was that.
Guest:But so, yeah.
Guest:So he he now very much enjoys wine.
Guest:And and that was another.
Guest:I mean, that was another fight we had was when I when I went home to live with my parents in San Diego when I was 36.
Guest:And I was at.
Guest:So I'm 42 now, but that was 2012.
Guest:And I had come out here.
Guest:I had met Scott Einzinger, who used to be, like, EP at Howard Stern.
Guest:And he was a TV guy.
Guest:And I had done my charming song and dance.
Guest:And he said, well, I'll fund you to leave The Post and come out to L.A.
Guest:And, you know, we can do a business together.
Guest:And then I...
Guest:We had a fight and he kind of yelled at me and I just said, well, fuck this shit.
Guest:I'm going to go live with my parents when I'm 36 and have $300 in the bank.
Marc:Oh, so that's a big life turn.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And you were sober.
Yeah.
Guest:And I was sober, yeah.
Guest:But in those, it was like my second year of sobriety, and so I'm living with my parents, which I'm sure they were thrilled about whenever your 36-year-old comes home and has quit the New York Post and is just like, this is what I'm doing now, guys.
Marc:Yeah, staying here in San Diego.
Guest:Yeah, and they... But my dad, I felt like...
Guest:Just again that I mean he would he's really into his wine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he would ask me to like pick out the bottle for the night.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I would try to explain that I'm not one of those people who is just like you can't drink around me.
Guest:In fact like I you know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I just.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But to me, I felt like the lack of sensitivity of even wondering.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then doing a toast to me and my sobriety.
Guest:I just like it just sometimes it just feels like.
Marc:No, he's a devil.
Guest:Sadistic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:No doubt that like, you know, that that's his connection.
Marc:That's how he engages with you emotionally.
Guest:But I love him.
Guest:It's like I hate talking shit about him.
Guest:He's funny, and I love him, and he's great.
Guest:It's just he's a very unique human being.
Marc:Being very diplomatic, which is a nice word for codependent and protective.
Marc:But, yeah.
Marc:I just – I can't – the idea of – No, you don't want to throw your dad under the bus.
Guest:Well, and also I wouldn't be a writer if it wasn't for my dad.
Marc:Well, that's what I was going to say is that eventually you get to a point –
Marc:With these people where you realize their shortcomings and you're, you know, you know enough about yourself to detach from the shitty ones and actually be able to say, all right, I'm not going to change that guy.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that's just the way he is.
Guest:Well, and that was something that I like.
Guest:I never went to Al-Anon because.
Guest:I didn't think, you know, my so like my dad, when he drinks, he actually I like it.
Guest:Like, he's like, you know, a tiger under sedation.
Guest:You know, it's like, great.
Guest:Do that.
Guest:You know.
Guest:And but when I called him, I think the first time I was trying to work on my four step and to talk to him about resentments, he said, do I want to hear what a shitty parent I was?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:And I just I was such a wreck when I went to my therapist.
Guest:And that was when she really forced me to go to Al-Anon.
Guest:And that's when I started kind of implementing the boundary of detaching with love.
Guest:But also, you know, go where it's warm.
Guest:Don't go to the hardware store for milk and not not trying to continuously close that that loop.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Of getting that closure and that healing, because all you're doing is just continuously rewounding yourself and.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Being like a hamster on a trauma wheel.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you do that in all your relationships.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, you got to figure the guy's got to have a pretty good chip on his shoulder for pretty good reasons.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So when did you leave home?
Marc:When did you how many siblings you have?
Guest:I have one older sister.
Guest:That's it?
Guest:What does she do?
Guest:She works in, she's been very successful in retail all of her life.
Marc:Is she down there?
Guest:Yeah, she's right around the San Diego area.
Guest:And so I was going to write my book about the post or whatever, and then I got a call from XOJ, and then I went back to New York.
Guest:So that's how I got out of San Diego.
Marc:How long did you actually stay home?
Guest:Two months.
Guest:Oh, that's not bad.
Marc:So it wasn't like you weren't like, well, you didn't dig in.
Guest:No, I didn't.
Marc:You're like, let me get my old stuff out.
Marc:Can I sleep in my old room kind of shit?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:It was really interesting, though, too.
Guest:I feel like everyone who has a dysfunctional childhood should go back as an adult when they're sober and re-experience it and see all the things that you went through when you were a kid.
Guest:And how that must have affected you.
Guest:I know it still very much affected me as an adult.
Marc:It comes right back.
Marc:I see it all the time.
Marc:It's disturbing, really.
Marc:Because it still affects you.
Marc:No matter how fucking sober you are.
Marc:I have very little patience for the emotional dynamic I have with my parents for more than a couple days.
Marc:And it's not even that destructive.
Marc:It's just sort of like...
Guest:Yeah, I just want to focus on... An interesting thing is that they adore Pat.
Guest:And so I feel like if I can always have Pat there and he can just be pulling up Johnny Carson and Jack Benny and they can be talking about comedy and my dad can be...
Guest:giving his philosophies on why, you know, Richard Pryor and Robin Williams and, you know, then that is... And that's all I want to do.
Guest:Like, I don't want to... But my dad is really funny.
Guest:Like, he said at the end of the trip when Pat and I went out there, he said...
Guest:well, this has been incredibly emotionally exhausting.
Guest:Pat said, that is so cool.
Guest:I can't imagine my family saying that.
Guest:And those are the parts of my family that I love is that extreme honesty.
Marc:Yeah, well, it's good to have someone you love to go there and kind of step in front of the bullets for you.
Guest:Yeah, you kind of need a cushion.
Guest:Oh yeah, definitely.
Guest:Yeah, even if you're not in a relationship, you should just audition someone for the role of familial cushion.
Marc:Visit my, you pay someone, it's a service.
Marc:I did that with women for years.
Marc:When I'd go to Florida,
Marc:to uh thanksgiving or whatever even if i wasn't with them for that long right this will be fun yeah yeah you can help meeting your family and i'm like don't just i just need somebody there to step in the in between when she comes at me it's like a distraction like in war yeah but when did you leave home to initially to go to new york what was the big idea
Guest:Well, so I went to Northwestern for journalism school.
Guest:In Chicago.
Guest:93 to 97.
Guest:And so that was when I left.
Guest:Yeah, that's Evanston, a little north of Chicago.
Marc:Yeah, I know where that is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's a gig there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:In Rogers Park.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There used to be a main stage theater.
Marc:It's nice there.
Guest:Yeah, very much so, yeah.
Guest:And then I kind of traveled all over working in different newspapers and then.
Marc:Doing straight journalism stuff?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:Like what different papers?
Marc:Like hometown shit?
Guest:No.
Guest:So part of Northwestern's program is something that they call either teaching newspaper or teaching magazine.
Guest:And so depending on what you want to go into or teaching TV, they place you actually at a newspaper.
Guest:And so for one quarter, you work at that newspaper.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So when the OJ trial happened and when the Northwestern Wildcats won the Rose Bowl and it was all historic in 95, I was down at the Fort Lauderdale Sun Sentinel and I was doing cops and all of those things.
Marc:Did you like that?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, it's fun.
Guest:I mean, the thing about newspaper people is that they're just like comedy people.
Guest:They have incredibly dark senses of humor.
Marc:Beat up.
Guest:Yeah, it's just there's a certain scene-it-all, understand-the-big-picture honesty.
Guest:And I kind of wrote about The Post being that way.
Guest:It's just the very...
Guest:dark, you know, well, I pitched that story and I felt another egg die, you know.
Guest:And, you know, don't worry, when I come back, you'll be spared.
Guest:You know, I mean, just it's that for me is the entire comfort of life because it's filled with so much tragedy.
Guest:And I, I just, I think that is the most healing thing there is, is really dark humor to be able to like, instead of just be like a victim to it, to be able to, I don't know, get some kind of like life force juice from.
Marc:Well, you know, you grew up with it.
Marc:I mean, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I mean, being like, you know, from you to be spend your whole life.
Marc:With a guy who, you know, went through what your dad did and then have to deal with, you know, the balance of of him having his own sort of issues and then how it's manifesting in the family.
Marc:I mean, how are you and then the humor part of it?
Marc:How are you really designed for dark humor?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think the other thing about, you know, my dad was seeing how.
Guest:just completely phony and full of shit people are because you know you would see someone who might be giving a speech about giving back to veterans and then just not want to get anywhere near my dad because they didn't want to have to deal with fucking that you know and the angry blind guy
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And seeing, you know, just people staring at him and seeing people's reactions, I think, really informed a lot of my appreciation for authentic people versus just, you know, users and status climbers.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, you talk about that a lot, just even in this conversation.
Marc:I have a hard time identifying users and status climbers a lot of times, because I've never been in a position to where I could be used, I guess.
Guest:But I mean... You're kidding, right?
Marc:Not really.
Guest:I mean, even now?
Marc:I mean, you have- Well, now, sure, I know when people wanna do the podcast, but I know also like, no, you're not gonna do the podcast.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:So I can't be duped by it.
Marc:Oh, okay, yeah.
Marc:But I'm sort of a sucker sometimes.
Marc:I don't always know when someone's being earnest or they're just ambitious until after, it takes time.
Marc:I don't always know it right away.
Guest:You gotta have sex with them first.
Guest:Oh, is that happening?
No, just-
Marc:But how'd you get the gig at The Post?
Marc:And why The Post?
Marc:I mean, did you like The Post?
Guest:So I got it because he's now the editor-in-chief of The Post, Stephen Lynch.
Guest:He had always liked my writing when I was a student at Northwestern and had kind of followed my career.
Marc:What were you doing?
Marc:How did he see your writing?
Guest:Well, so I had the places I had worked up until the point where I left newspapers.
Guest:I had, you know, interned at the Village Voice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I had gotten a very.
Guest:When it was still a paper.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I worked for Leslie Sabin and I I got a very competitive internship right when I graduated working for the style section of The Washington Post, which was like, oh, she's got some buzz on her in journalism and feature writing.
Guest:And then after that, I went to kind of like what's known as like a kind of stepping stone business.
Guest:Like I worked with Jeff Zeleny, who then went on to become the Obama correspondent.
Guest:Now he's on TV all the time and at the Des Moines Register in Iowa.
Guest:So I worked there for a year.
Guest:And I all that time I dated for like five years, my college sweetheart.
Guest:And I just was really unhappy at the newspaper.
Guest:I left it.
Guest:I got married.
Guest:Yeah, in Iowa.
Guest:And I took a job working in PR.
Guest:I was writing for Northwestern Medical School's alumni magazine.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:And you were married?
Marc:You didn't marry a college sweetheart.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So I was with him 10 years total, five years married.
Guest:Right.
Guest:From when I was like 20 to 30.
Guest:And then so I started at a certain point.
Guest:I was on a track to become a...
Guest:Working at Northwestern, you get huge college discounts.
Guest:And so I was like, how can I use this?
Guest:So I did everything I needed to do.
Guest:And I got into the master's program in education at Northwestern.
Guest:And I was going to have a safe, nice little life
Guest:as an English teacher married to this guy who didn't really like me very much.
Guest:And then the first course that I took was storytelling because I needed a public speaking requirement.
Guest:And I had this great teacher Reeves Collins and it was right when 9-11 happened.
Guest:And what I did was I wrote the story of my dad that I had tried to write for Gene Weingarten, who's kind of like a big deal editor at The Post.
Guest:He discovered Dave Barry.
Guest:And he had been open to me writing about my dad for The Post.
Guest:And I just I couldn't do it when I was that age when it was 1997.
Guest:And I was an intern and I'm interviewing my dad's trauma surgeon and asking him about where the bullets went in.
Guest:And the surgeon is disgusted by me saying, well, your daughter's developed a very ghoulish interest in your injury, Jerry.
Guest:And I'm just trying to fucking put it together and make it work and get the clip.
Guest:And I just didn't do it.
Guest:And I finally wrote that story for this storytelling class.
Guest:And it was the first time I had really written for myself and in a way that was more myself in quite a while.
Guest:And everyone was, you know, very just, oh, my God, you're an amazing writer.
Guest:And getting that kind of feedback and feeling how that felt, I suddenly just reevaluated myself.
Guest:That maybe my because I thought my life was over at 27.
Guest:I thought I had, you know, had my shot and I was way too old and I couldn't ever do anything different.
Guest:And it made me just think, what did I ever want to do?
Guest:I had always said that I was going to write for a Saturday Night Live and Vanity Fair.
Guest:And, you know, but I never took any steps in that direction.
Guest:I just didn't think you could take that.
Guest:And so, yeah, then I just started taking screenwriting courses and I just started taking classes at Second City and I started doing stand up and open mics and develop friendships with, you know, comics on the Chickahaha Go boards or whatever.
Guest:And emailing with Kyle Kinane and like, you know, the Chicago guys.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:All because of a storytelling class.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you have to read the story?
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:And from that, I decided, well, I'm going to start writing again, so I'm going to create a blog.
Guest:But I was so embarrassed because I just thought that I had had all these legit credits, and to be doing a Blogspot blog, just what a confession of- Failure?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I mean, I'm sure like when you initially did the podcast, I mean, like we didn't know exactly.
Guest:And so so I did that.
Guest:And so, yes, Steve basically saw the writing I had done on my on my blog.
Guest:And so talk to me about potentially, you know, working at The Post.
Guest:And it was very much a long shot.
Guest:I mean, he had to really do a lot of convincing because I hadn't worked in newspapers in years.
Guest:But they they then hired me.
Guest:And it was like I turned 30.
Guest:I got divorced.
Guest:I got the job at The Post.
Guest:And also something I started to say earlier, but I didn't finish, was that my parents divorced each other.
Guest:For five years.
Guest:So when I was married, they were divorced that entire time.
Guest:And my dad had two different fiancés.
Guest:Right when I announced that I was getting divorced, they remarried each other.
Guest:So it was a lot of changes and chaos.
Guest:Did you finish the master's?
Guest:No, I never took a single education course.
Guest:Not a single one.
Guest:All I did was take.
Guest:You took storytelling.
Guest:That did it.
Guest:That was enough.
Guest:That did it.
Guest:That really did it.
Guest:And also, I think it just it happening, you know, right.
Guest:I had to write the story of my life on September 11th to turn in the next day.
Guest:And there's.
Guest:It was just a very intense time for kind of, you know, questioning.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I just remember asking myself, what did I ever want to do with my life?
Guest:And I had known people at Northwestern who had gone on and been successful as comedy writers.
Guest:And I thought, why couldn't I do that?
Guest:And that was something I had never even just considered.
Marc:Did you do any comedy writing?
Marc:Did you do sketch and stuff when you were there?
Guest:Well, I mean, I mostly took a ton of classes.
Guest:I took, you know, Sharna Halpern at I.O.
Guest:and Second City classes.
Guest:I took acting classes, which taught me so much about writing.
Guest:And I...
Guest:I did do some, you know, I worked with a lot of kind of people who didn't actually have any pull in the industry, but because I didn't know anything, I thought they did.
Guest:So I just did tons of free work on, you know.
Marc:Well, that's what you do.
Guest:Yeah, until you kind of learn the way the world works.
Marc:I think it works better.
Marc:I mean, free work's not terrible if you do the work.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's not amounting to nothing.
Guest:No, no, it's not.
Guest:It's not.
Guest:But I just in my book, I try to give every single secret that I learned.
Guest:I mean, I wish that I could have given even more because something that I've noticed is that people are very protective sometimes about crucial bits of information.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like the fact that I mean, I mean, it took years until I.
Guest:an entertainment lawyer, Jamie Roberts.
Guest:He's the lawyer for Caroline's, and that's how I met him.
Guest:You know, I was just droning on and on to him about, I don't know, that I had met one of the real housewives, and what was that going to do for my career?
Guest:And I think I had an item coming up in page six, and all these exciting things were happening.
Guest:And, you know, someone mentioned they were interested in me for reality TV.
Guest:And he was like, Mandy, when people want to do a deal with you, you know.
Guest:And, you know, it's very, like, embarrassing to just be sitting there, you know, naked like an asshole just having had everything pulled out.
Guest:But it's such a gift.
Guest:It's such a gift because everything changes after that and you're able to realize that if someone isn't able to, you know, give you a deal memo...
Guest:fairly initially sure that you know they're just foolish full of shit yeah they're just talking and there's no harm in that but it's yeah not gonna lead anywhere so you know did you do you did you see it yourself at different times in your career as one of these people that was uh you know just painfully opportunistic
Guest:Oh, yeah, of course.
Marc:You cop to that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think that's pretty.
Guest:I think that is a pretty crucial quality for anyone who is successful in media because.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The entire nature of it is to seize opportunities and that by nature a lot of times can lead to opportunism.
Guest:But I do think that in my defense that I'm not like entirely, you know, just opportunistic.
Guest:No, you can write.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, yeah, I mean, I can write, but also I think that I really developed a sense of putting the person before the story and working at the post and seeing, you know, what happened to me in stories that I did for them.
Guest:Like...
Guest:just writing a story, turning it in, and the headline initially had been confronting the ghosts of my past, and then it comes out in the newspaper, and the headline is how I went from chill to psycho.
Guest:And just knowing what can happen at a tabloid or at any media when you agree to do it, I started then telling people
Guest:Just so you know, this could happen because I don't want to – I didn't want to set people up.
Guest:And I didn't want to have that kind of on my conscience that I was –
Guest:And throwing, sacrificing someone else's dignity for just, you know, some dumb clip.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, right, because you didn't have control over it.
Guest:No, you never do.
Guest:You never do.
Marc:I think that's something unique to journalism, I guess, or tabloid writing or whatever that is.
Marc:The cutthroat nature of clickbait and presenting the story.
Marc:And then I imagine the concessions you have to make with your own principles has got to be a pressure that's persistent always.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I was told by more than one person when I would agonize about things related to feeling like I was hurting other people.
Guest:You just got to not think about it.
Guest:You just got to not just put it away somewhere.
Marc:And when did that bite you in the ass?
Guest:Well, I think that it, I mean, I don't know that it ever really, I didn't ever really have anyone who, well, I mean, yeah, I had various people who were, you know, furious at me.
Guest:And then a lot of times what would happen would be whatever had given cause to their fury, some outrageous headline that,
Guest:they would then call me later and say, oh, my God, I got all these TV bookers and producers calling me.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, but just in terms of, like, how it felt, you know, for me starting to just feel gross, you know, the story that I wrote about in the book is...
Guest:um when I was I was asked to do a takedown piece on Bethany Frankel who I had encountered and she's some one of those real housewives and uh she'd always been you know nice to me and uh I certainly didn't have anything against her and I just felt like there surely has to be someone else who can write this story and I was told that you know I had to do it and I will say though that um
Guest:she is someone who has a lot of enemies in the business because whenever you are assigned to write like a takedown type piece and the word gets out and you get this influx of calls, you start to see how many enemies someone has and when you stop being nice to people when you're on the way up.
Marc:You saw that in action.
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I had I had told that story to Aaron Sorkin and that became the genesis for like an episode of the newsroom and evil gossip character who they had called bad Mandy in the writers room.
Guest:But.
Guest:Because he wanted to make it clear that it wasn't me, this character played by Hope Davis, who was just oozing easy sexuality and saying to...
Guest:Um, the lead, uh, Olbermann-esque type character.
Marc:Jeff Daniels?
Guest:Jeff Daniels, yeah.
Guest:Uh, you just passed up a sure thing, you know, and just watching that and just knowing, you know, that I was exactly like that.
Guest:I mean, I don't think I would say you just passed up a sure thing, but, uh.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But that's Sorkin's kind of weird 1930s rhythmic writing.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:Which I like.
Marc:But, so you got, but, so...
Marc:But at that time, how was that triangle?
Marc:How did that sort of unfold?
Marc:You, Sorkin, Olbermann?
Guest:Yeah, so that was just like I kind of became... I kind of used sobriety like a drug in a way where it was like I was so aware.
Guest:And so instead of doing the steps and being this more authentic person...
Guest:I just, yeah, I kind of, the whole, you know, star fucking opportunism, you know, social climbing thing played out.
Guest:I would read 48 Laws of Power and the Art of Seduction by Robert Greene.
Marc:As opposed to the big book and-
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:As opposed to the big book.
Guest:I didn't drink.
Guest:So, I mean, I guess that's good.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:But I just I you know, I wanted I wanted something that was like like thrilling and exciting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And yeah.
Guest:So I just I I met Sorkin and Olbermann and Lloyd Grove, who's at the Daily Beast.
Guest:And I would just kind of like email them about, oh, and Olbermann's taking me out.
Guest:And, you know, and it was just really because that's one of the bits of advice is try to create love triangles.
Guest:And and it was just I mean, and the only one I really dated seriously, I dated Lloyd seriously for about a year.
Guest:But Olbermann, I just went on a couple of dates with and then Sorkin, you know, it was just like hookups and dates over, you know, a matter of years.
Guest:But it was it was it was something that was in my mind, not in it's not like any of those guys were sweating each, you know, but that was that was to me the center of my exciting universe.
Marc:These are big, big guys.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because, I mean, I couldn't be interesting on my own.
Guest:But if I could attach myself to a man who was, then I could derive some sort of self-worth.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Because the way that you get self-worth is you fuck it into yourself.
Marc:That's what I hear.
Marc:Is this part of the advice?
Guest:That's what you learn in therapy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, just the proximity.
Marc:But there is a power to it, too, though.
Marc:I mean, it's not.
Marc:I mean, on some side, I could see it, you know, the self-esteem, you know, acting out and all that.
Marc:But to have power over those dudes on some level.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You're not going to win.
Guest:No, of course not.
Marc:No.
Marc:But you can make them do things.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And and you I mean, the other thing is, is that I was never hot most of my life.
Guest:And when I got divorced, I went from like a size 14 to a size six.
Guest:And I started dyeing my hair and wearing makeup and doing my.
Guest:So I kind of when I came to New York, I kind of had.
Guest:the first experiences of being a little bit of a piece of ass, like a seven maybe even.
Guest:So that was trying to use that specific kind of power and thinking that
Guest:that was something that was really important to capitalize on because it had a limited lifespan.
Marc:Now, did anyone else other than Jonathan Ames give you pushback about the names being in the book?
Guest:Um, yeah, another person did just because, um, and I won't, you know, say his name because I didn't include it in the book, but, um, just because it was about drugs and he said, you know, his mom really, you know, follows his, his stuff.
Guest:So I, uh, um, and then, and then, yeah, another, um,
Guest:another pretty famous comic I just took out entirely because I just don't.
Guest:It's just not important.
Guest:I mean, if I would have had to take everyone out, that would have been okay.
Guest:But I just felt like...
Guest:You don't do podcasts with people anonymizing them.
Guest:You don't, you know, I mean, it's and also a really big theme in my life has just been being, you know, the girl in high school who you invite over to help you with your homework and stay up all night laughing with.
Guest:And then at the party with the popular kids, you just don't see her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I think that.
Guest:I know it is so sad.
Guest:It's very heartbreaking.
Guest:And it's like that, that right there is like high school, you know?
Guest:I mean, and, uh, and it is for like a lot of, um, women who just don't have that, uh, socialization training of like a kind person to say, Oh, you don't have to worry about that.
Guest:They're all just going to be, you know, they're going to, no one's going to turn out well trophy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, and so, yeah.
Marc:what I learned about the memoir thing, or even about talking frankly or candidly here, you know, without, not in conversation, was a woman brought, this was a thing of advice that I got, was that, you know, when you do write, your side is something.
Marc:The other person doesn't have a voice in it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You know, in that, like that was one of those things that stopped me from getting too personal about relationships I'm in here.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Because like you start talking or you write stuff and they may want a rebuttal, but what are they going to do?
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Yeah, and I mean, when I sent the portion to Olbermann, you know, he had... Notes.
Guest:He did have notes.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And, you know, and I was happy to incorporate... I mean, and it wasn't like he told me to write something, not at all, but it was just a clarification of like...
Guest:You know, just something like a, you know, a detail that I had, you know, not reported correctly because I because we just went on a couple of dates.
Guest:How do I know?
Guest:And, you know, I would much prefer to.
Marc:Nice of him to remember.
Guest:Well, I mean, I don't know if you've ever read David Carr's Night of the Gun.
Marc:I haven't.
Guest:Um, so he's like one of the most famous.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You know who he is.
Guest:And so he, in his memoir, he kind of sought out to do the anti, um, James Frey where he used all of his source material and he interviewed people.
Guest:And so I tried to kind of keep that in mind and reaching out to people.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you all the places that you work that we would know like the post and then you did what XO Jane.
Marc:Is that what that was?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I did Jane.
Guest:So Jane Pratt hired me and I worked there for 2012 to 2015.
Guest:Kat Marnell had just quit.
Marc:And you were doing a dating column.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I was writing about, you know, my life.
Guest:In New York.
Guest:Who I was hooking up with.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Who I was, you know.
Marc:Good gig, though.
Guest:Yeah, it was fun.
Guest:I mean, it was just whenever you are mining your life for.
Guest:Content.
Marc:Content.
Guest:That was cool because it sounded like cunt tent.
Marc:Yeah, see, you still got a hearing problem, kind of.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, cunt tent.
Guest:There was no cunt.
Guest:No, I know, okay, okay, okay.
Guest:So I wrote about things that were happening, but because it was such a commenter-heavy environment, you were told kind of constantly, you know, not only like, ah,
Guest:hey, does she have a lazy eye?
Guest:Or, you know, she's had so much Botox that, you know, I mean, just things about your appearance, which is one thing, but then also just long, like, 500-word ruminations on why you would never find happiness on
Guest:because you're this type of person and you're saying these were the comments yeah and some of them were i mean you know really lovely but it it is um it that's a difficult thing to have coming in and have be have part of your job be that you're supposed to interact because how do you interact with that yeah and
Guest:So I would say I do not recommend that model for anyone doing that type of writing or that.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I think that type of writing is OK to a certain extent.
Guest:But I mean, I wrote a piece for New York magazine that was commissioned where they wanted me to reflect on the first person industrial complex.
Guest:Meaning that because Jane Pratt is a genius.
Guest:She changed the game.
Guest:You now see big newspapers with headlines that are, you know, quote, I slept with Donald Trump or whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It would never have been that headline years ago.
Guest:It's that first person writing that has changed it because people respond to it.
Guest:And so this piece that I wrote unclear whether it's a good or bad thing, really.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know.
Guest:I mean, I think that sometimes it can be a good thing.
Guest:I think that sometimes it's I mean, I just I honestly all of the sexual life of politicians.
Guest:That's something that has never really been my jam.
Marc:You know, what's amazing is how many of them are utterly unfuckable.
Marc:I mean, it's like when I look at some of these dudes, I'm like, who is fucking that guy?
Marc:And why?
Marc:That's gotta be part of their problem.
Guest:I remember when I was dating the guy that I wrote about in the New York Post dating column I did for two years, and I called him super preppy.
Guest:And I remember one time I saw his bank account statement, and I gave him a blowjob, and I think it was like a...
Guest:You know, the best blowjob I had given in my life up until that point, because I was just so I had never been around people who had that much money.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, I mean, which is, you know, disgusting on my part to say I'm not saying I'm proud of it, but I'm clearly not a gold digger because I didn't.
Guest:Didn't succeed at that?
Guest:No, it's not that I didn't succeed.
Guest:I mean, I've dated plenty of other wealthy guys where all I had to do was just pretend that they were remotely interesting and I could have locked that shit down.
Guest:But I mean, that's, I think, that's a soul death of sorts.
Marc:But was the blowjob, were you actually turned on by the amount?
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I mean...
Guest:I the reason that I kind of stopped being that way is because it just makes you feel morally bankrupt.
Guest:You know, getting getting getting turned on by like a bank statement is the same thing as getting turned on by ecstasy because you're just rolling rolling on drugs.
Guest:You know, I mean, it's a similar kind of disconnect from like your true self.
Marc:Tell me about the catharsis, the denouement, the change, the bottom.
Marc:What happened?
Guest:Well, I mean, I got sober because I just had one bad experience too many, and I... There was no topper?
Guest:There was no... Well, I mean, I met a guy who... I had had eight days of sobriety, and I went to a going-away party for someone who was leaving page six, and...
Guest:And I, you know, I think I had that sobriety glow and a cute young man approached me and was talking me up.
Guest:And I thought, oh, this is so cool.
Guest:I'm even meeting like cool guys in sobriety.
Marc:Eight days.
Guest:And then he said, yeah, exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And he.
Marc:A whole new world.
Guest:He said, you know, I can tell you're different.
Guest:Like you are, you're cool.
Guest:I've heard that there are these sex club parties and I've never met a girl who was cool enough to go to one.
Guest:And I just kind of realized it was like the switch that it was just all because he immediately laser vision pointed me out
Guest:or saw me as, you know, the girl that you could take to a sex club party.
Guest:And then it kind of, you know, dropped again.
Guest:And he said, you know, there's actually one tonight.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I said, all right, you little shit, but get me a drink because I'm not going to go to a fucking orgy sober.
Guest:And then I emailed everyone who I talked to about sobriety initially saying, I think it's great that people do it, but I just have these legendary nights that are just these epic experiences.
Guest:And so I don't think that's for...
Guest:For me, because this is, I mean, who has this happened to them, right?
Marc:I know this moment, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and then I also thought that guy genuinely liked me, which is so, you know.
Marc:Demented.
Guest:Demented, demented.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I didn't hear from him for a while, and then I. Did you go to the club?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I ended up, yeah, I mean, I was the best, you know?
Guest:I mean, I was like a small crowd, you know, gathered because I just immediately started, you know, games for every, you know, hey, why don't you go down on that girl?
Guest:And then, you know.
Marc:You were the counselor?
Marc:The camp counselor?
Marc:The master of ceremonies?
Guest:Conciliary.
Guest:I've always been like, I mean, I think I say this, that I said this drunkenly to the cab driver on the way to meet Jonathan Ames.
Guest:I've always been like ultimate slumber party girl.
Guest:Where it's just like, let's play truth or dare.
Guest:Let's play I never.
Guest:Let's do, let's make the, you know, most of this moment.
Guest:And I, yeah, so I started that game of dare or dare, I guess it was.
Guest:Then I was dared to go down on the girl and did it in just the right way where you are...
Guest:sticking your ass up in the air so that it looks as much like a porn scene as possible.
Guest:And then I got dared to... Anyway, so there's a Coke dealer who's watching the whole thing and he's complimenting the guy who brought me saying, you got the best girl right there.
Guest:And no one was buying any coke.
Guest:And he said, I'm going to give you a line because I just want to have it burned in my brain of you doing coke off that girl's big ass titties.
Guest:So did that.
Guest:And...
Guest:Went back to the guy's place, fell in his bathtub, got a huge bruise on my knee.
Guest:And then when he was fucking me, he was like, you are a whore, aren't you?
Guest:And, you know, that dirty talk is fun when it's done where there isn't a sense of... It being an honest question?
Guest:Sinister.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Where it isn't like...
Guest:Where it isn't like, you are just a worthless, disposable fucking set of holes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he had been so kind of like, you know, just charming and how funny I was and all these things.
Guest:And so I hooked up with another guy and it was...
Guest:doing you know coke and and getting fucked up and i was like about to have sex with him and i just was like i don't i don't want to you know i'm just doing this to blot out the fact that i feel so dumb that that other guy hasn't called me and the sex party guy
Guest:The sex party guy, yeah.
Marc:That winner.
Guest:I know, in my mind.
Guest:Because he was like, yeah, we can go on a sexual heart of darkness journey together.
Guest:And I was just like, yeah, totally.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I reached out to, again, the same people who were a little less indulgent this time because I had given them now my big speech about why sobriety wasn't for me.
Guest:And one of them said, you know, Mandy, you can keep calling me up every three weeks or you can change your life.
Guest:And I, for some reason, that just really landed.
Guest:And I realized that I had always thought that it was you go out and then depending upon the signs from the universe, you act accordingly.
Guest:So if a guy is cute enough, if he's funny enough,
Guest:if he is offering you a very unique opportunity, like a sex club that you don't normally, you know, that that, okay, all signs point to... This is it.
Guest:That you have to do this.
Marc:Yeah, my path.
Guest:And so instead, yeah, I just, I went to meetings on my own, and then at like 22 days of sobriety, I heard from that dude again, and he asked me to go to another party, and I went with him, and I...
Guest:Right when I arrived, I was brought an alcoholic drink that I didn't order.
Guest:And then on the way into the club, they were squirting vodka into people's mouths and I declined inside the club.
Guest:They were also doing that.
Guest:I declined.
Guest:He brought me a drink.
Guest:I declined.
Guest:And then the fifth time was after the party.
Guest:And of course, nothing happened this time at the party.
Guest:I just was like interviewing people and being like, and what do you do to the woman getting like fucked in the ass by another guy?
Guest:And she's like, I'm a corporate lawyer.
Guest:And we're just decompressing after this.
Guest:And I ordered a Pellegrino and I was brought a champagne.
Guest:I just suddenly my, you know, mental lies started kicking in that this was a sign.
Guest:And I...
Guest:remembered, I felt in my purse the little 24-hour coin that people had passed around and they had touched, and that all these people actually really cared about me.
Guest:And that this guy I was with didn't care if I lived or died.
Guest:And I...
Guest:That for me was a very critical moment.
Guest:And I didn't have the drink like I, you know, I decided I didn't have to just be, you know, a passive participant where life was happening to me.
Guest:I could actually make choices that I was going to decide.
Marc:Yeah, that's a big moment.
Guest:It's a really big moment and it's a weird thing that, you know, it took me until 36 to have because I've always been someone who, I mean, I got a paper route when I was like 12 years old and this guy showed up at the house and just said, yeah, your daughter applied for a job.
Guest:And my parents were like, what?
Guest:You know, like I've always had it in certain respects, but I think that
Guest:When it came to something like drugs and alcohol, because I was told so often, I mean, I remember one time talking about sobriety to a guy who worked in newspapers and he said, there's nothing so unattractive as a woman who can't hold her liquor.
Guest:And I just things like that I took as being like absolutes that this was off the table that I couldn't be that unfun drag.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That couldn't hang.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're an alcoholic.
Marc:yeah you know I mean yeah and you know learning that whether you're a drug addict or alcoholic I mean I mean I was I think 35 I was 40 35 36 I mean you know what are you gonna do right you know you're just lucky that you had that moment yeah it's not an age thing it's gotten you know and you know that it's got no bearing it no matter what you do with the rest of your life or however you know you define yourself yeah that fucking thing you know and then it opened up the whole door to all this other shit
Guest:Yeah, my life started getting so much better immediately.
Guest:Just all of these...
Guest:Everything started coming together, even though I was, you know, still fairly like rotten on the inside because I didn't do any of the work.
Guest:And I just then tried to, you know, create new like addictions and dramas and so forth.
Guest:But I yeah, it's like you have to, you know, change doesn't happen overnight.
Guest:You have to.
Guest:sometimes be okay with that incremental epiphany type deal.
Marc:Yeah, and also it's just weird that a lot of stuff sort of falls away.
Marc:It's easier to be onto yourself when you're sober, like when you're acting out or you're doing other shit, whatever it is, and either you can accept it or you can't as long as you're not drinking.
Marc:That's the tricky thing about that.
Marc:that when you have that sort of type of disposition, it's looking for other shit to, you know, jack you up.
Marc:Like, you know, I was... When I got sober, I left my wife and went with the chick that got me sober.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I ended up marrying her.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It was a fucking disaster.
Marc:It was just a fucking disaster.
Marc:Because I didn't... It just... I put it all on her.
Marc:It just... The shit that's happened sober is crazy.
Guest:Yeah, you have to be, I think, okay with...
Guest:whoever you're, if you get a partner, I think that you're not going to be a good partner if you're not okay on your own.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Guest:And if you are, and I think that's how I used to look for partners, was like, oh, this person will save me, this person will give me an identity, this person will...
Marc:consciously or just you look back on it and you think oh yeah I look back I mean I never yeah I never I never realized that that was what was going on I know when people tell me where like if I talk about a relationship people say this is what you were doing there's still part of me it's like no no I don't think that's what it's
Guest:I will say that listening to the audio that I recorded, sometimes accidentally and sometimes not, of me drinking and hearing how fucking combative I get when I drink was so rough to listen to.
Guest:But it was also so eye-opening.
Guest:There was a tape from college where my roommate was asking me, are you okay, Mandy?
Guest:And I just said, I'm fucking great.
Guest:And it just it's so it's so awkward.
Guest:And I now when I hang out with drunk people, I just I it's like I never tell them the things that they did or said.
Guest:But I want to just be like, record yourself sometime because that's a gift you can give to yourself.
Guest:I'm not saying you're anything, but just it's unsustainable.
Guest:Yeah, it's fairly unsustainable, I would say.
Guest:But I also, you know, a thing that I like to say is that, you know, drugs are really fun.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that those nights can also be... I think sometimes when you try to just, you know, paint it as just being the worst, it's like you can't... If you don't look at... Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:just, you know.
Guest:So it was great.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:It's like the recovery thing.
Marc:You can accept the past and not close the door on it.
Marc:It's like, I don't have, I don't really feel like I have too many regrets.
Guest:Yeah, that's good.
Marc:I mean, I did some shit, but I don't like it was.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I've never been that fucking out there.
Guest:I think there are the regrets that I have are when I have acted out of anger and I have just been a nasty.
Guest:just castrating fucking bitch to people because I just... It really makes me sad that knowing that that I do to myself, that I put that out on other people because you can't ever really take that back except by being honest about it.
Marc:Yeah, but you can definitely fuck some... Yeah, you can hurt people and they can never...
Marc:You know, forgive you sometimes.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Guest:Yeah, I've reached out to people to make amends and they're like, no, you don't get it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's like, that's great.
Guest:I respect that.
Guest:Have a good life.
Guest:only that tone no no god yeah you just do it again i just yeah that's that's it yeah right wouldn't that be great if i just was just like and by the way you have the worst breath and you fucking are a no talent yeah right no i just but but i mean i have to like i have to take out my anger somewhere you know do with it um
Guest:I mean, I think just trying to be funny and just like talking to friends and talking shit, being vicious.
Marc:Yeah, but doesn't writing help?
Guest:Yeah, and actually, like, the reason when I mentioned before that, you know, I went from being, you know, just like...
Guest:chubby wife to then being kind of like a hot piece of Craigslist ass like when I got the reason that I got divorced and the reason that I started the blog also besides doing that class the other thing was and I'm sure many people have said this this thing to you but I started doing the fucking morning pages yeah I started doing those in 2004 and that I lost 60 pounds
Guest:I realized that my marriage was toxic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I started writing for myself again.
Guest:And I haven't because I've been so busy writing the book and everything.
Guest:I haven't done them in a while, but I did them recently.
Guest:And I had such a better day because of it.
Guest:Because, yeah, I was able to just say exactly my side of the story and why I was completely right, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was a funny thing in writing the book was my editor, I would turn in the occasional section that would just be kind of like, you know, should have been called like, Mandy, settle some scores, you know?
Guest:And it was just like, really, she was like, yeah, you don't really need this.
Guest:You can just, you can let that go.
Marc:This is not essential to the story.
Guest:You're the only one who cares about this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you and the husband are getting along good?
Guest:Yeah, very much so.
Marc:Nice talking to you.
Guest:Great talking to you.
Guest:Thanks for having me.
Guest:Oh, and can I tell people where to get the book?
Guest:Is that okay?
Guest:Of course.
Marc:I'll do it too at the top.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So if you go to unwifeablebook.com, it takes you right to the Amazon page, unwifeablebook.com.
Marc:But now you're a wife.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Isn't that ironic?
Marc:No, I think that's the whole book, right?
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Boomer lives!
Marc:Boomer lives!
you