Episode 909 - Bradley Whitford
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters what the fucking ears what's happening what is what the fucking avians yeah how's that because i'm in scandinavia it's kind of a riff on scandinavians did you get that did you dig it i did that for all the people that will you know hopefully have come to my show last night i've traveled to uh
Marc:Oslo, Norway, which is where I'm at now in a hotel room that is overlooking the National Theater, which is quite a building.
Marc:It has been a fun and exciting trip here to the birthplace of Minnesota, and it gives me a whole new insight into the upper Midwest of America.
Marc:But Norwegians and Swedes in their environment, very pleasant people.
Marc:It's beautiful up here, though.
Marc:Honestly, and don't tell Sweden this, but I'm enjoying Oslo a little more.
Marc:Maybe I've just locked into the groove.
Marc:Maybe I've relaxed into it a little bit.
Marc:Or maybe it's just there's something different about this city.
Marc:I like both of them.
Marc:But Oslo is very beautiful.
Marc:I went to a castle.
Marc:It was beautiful.
Marc:around a long time ago, and then they made some renovations.
Marc:It has been used on and off over the years.
Marc:There's several different types of rocks involved from different eras that things were built on.
Marc:It's up on a hill.
Marc:There's bricks and wooden doors.
Marc:There's archways.
Marc:There's holes for cannons.
Marc:And it overlooks a fjord, I believe it would be.
Marc:I believe that I'm now just...
Marc:Two blocks away from a fjord, which I don't think I have been before.
Marc:And went to a lovely museum here.
Marc:Great contemporary art collections in both Sweden and here.
Marc:I would tell you the name of that gallery if I could.
Marc:Oh, here.
Marc:I have the museum guide right here.
Marc:It's the Astrup Fernley Musit.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know how to pronounce it.
Marc:Let's just say museum.
Marc:And I saw some great stuff there.
Marc:I did.
Marc:I really did.
Marc:And Sarah even liked most of it.
Marc:It was exciting to go see contemporary art where it's very personal for her because these are people she knows.
Marc:She's got her tastes.
Marc:And I need to be educated sometimes.
Marc:I don't quite know why things I like are important or not important.
Marc:But I learn.
Marc:I learned, which is a nice way to say, I take it, folks.
Marc:I take it.
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:Having a good time out here on the road.
Marc:Good times.
Marc:So we went to the Viking Museum.
Marc:to a Viking museum and I saw a Viking ship and there was a bunch of Viking artifacts around.
Marc:And I don't know, I feel very connected to it.
Marc:I'm not sure what I'm experiencing here in Norway, but I feel very connected and I highly doubt.
Marc:that I have any unknown Viking ancestry.
Marc:Though it's possible, it looks like they got around.
Marc:It looks like at some point they might have even dipped into Poland.
Marc:It looks like they parked a ship if I was looking at the routing correctly.
Marc:They made it all over the place.
Marc:Ireland, I believe Dublin, if I'm not mistaken, from the two sentences I read earlier that I'm assuming are true, might have even been founded by Vikings.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:There seemed to be some Gaelic-Viking crossover, but they got around, man.
Marc:They got all the way down around to the top of Africa.
Marc:They got around in the Mediterranean Sea, and then they kind of moved up.
Marc:They noodled up into Europe, and it looks like they might have touched ground just outside of Poland and hiked down into Poland, perhaps doing some conquering, some pillaging, maybe a little raping.
Marc:So I'm not saying that I have any...
Marc:viking in me what i am saying what i am positing here is that it's possible and perhaps i should get my genetics done because i would like to know if i have any viking in me because the pull is pretty strong up here but i'd like to believe that i am one of a select few viking jews
Marc:You know, the Viking Jews, the Jews that got a little queasy on the boats, weren't great with swords.
Marc:But see, I'm stereotyping.
Marc:I just caught myself in, I was stereotyping Viking Jews.
Marc:There were some tremendous Viking Jews, very powerful conquerors, conquerors.
Marc:Goldberg the Almighty was, as everybody knows, one of the most powerful Viking Jews.
Marc:There was Stein the Frightening, if people remember.
Marc:There was Iskowitz, the terror of Poland for a minute.
Marc:You do look at the swords and the engravings and stuff, and you find how it's very compelling, and you can see where the metal guys like it, where the leather guys like it, where people who make belts and leather things enjoy Viking stuff.
Marc:People with hearty beards.
Marc:I mean, I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:People who enjoy wearing helmets with horns on them, which are back.
Marc:I don't know where you live, but I think there's some of that going on in Brooklyn, maybe out in Highland Park where I used to live.
Marc:You're seeing the horns on helmets again.
Marc:The helmets that come all the way down with the steel nose guard are happening.
Marc:It was only a matter of time.
Marc:Once the beards came out, it was only a matter of time before the horned helmets would make their way back into coffee shops.
Marc:Did I mention that Bradley Whitford is on the show today for no real reason?
Marc:It's always nice to talk to Bradley.
Marc:I've met him a couple of times.
Marc:He's one of those guys that I'm like, I know I'm going to get along with this guy.
Marc:But he was a nice chap, but he wasn't really plugging anything.
Marc:Just came by, wanted to hang out, talk a bit.
Marc:It was really like that.
Marc:It was really like that.
Marc:So what's going on in the States?
Marc:I got to say, I haven't been watching TV.
Marc:I've been checking the news occasionally.
Marc:It doesn't seem like anything great is happening.
Marc:It does feel like something is falling apart.
Marc:I just hope it's the right thing.
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:I'm too, now I'm a little giddy.
Marc:I don't know if the air is thin here.
Marc:It does stay light a long time.
Marc:It's only about five or six hours of darkness.
Marc:It feels like maybe, I don't know.
Marc:I just, we, I go to bed.
Marc:It just got dark at like nine 30, 10.
Marc:I wake up sometimes during the night and it seems like it's light at four or five.
Marc:I don't, you know, I could research, I could research all of this.
Marc:But as some of you know, I like to speculate.
Marc:I'm enjoying it here.
Marc:Oh, yeah, I just realized.
Marc:You know what might be doing it?
Marc:What might be creating some genetic exhilaration and connectivity to this region is smoked fish.
Marc:like that might be it like i had i had some herring this morning and some smoked salmon and some rye and maybe that's just triggered something maybe it's not genetic at all maybe it just it got all my jew genes excited and then i felt connected to everything because i'd been fished up in the morning i got the smoked fish buzz of my people all right now i'm going to google jews in norway because i don't know if i'm the only one here right now
Marc:Anyways, Bradley Whitford back in the garage.
Marc:This is still some of the archive from the old garage, and you can see him on the new season of The Handmaid's Tale on Hulu, which premieres this week.
Marc:And of course, he had a great year in 2017 in the movie Get Out and the other movie, The Post.
Marc:A lot of Whitford around.
Marc:Good guy.
Marc:He's got an edge to him, this guy.
Marc:Got a little bit of an edge from the Midwest, too, as I recall.
Marc:Maybe he's part Viking.
Marc:I can't remember if we talked about that.
Marc:Two Vikings.
Marc:Watch out for us in Brooklyn.
Marc:We're the ones wearing the helmets with the horns.
Marc:This is me and Bradley Whitford back in the garage.
Marc:I guess I don't generally talk politics, but no, I guess it's Hollywood.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know what this podcast is.
Marc:I've had a lot of different types of people here, I'd like to think.
Marc:But I did have a, yeah, I had a sitting president.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Did he sit here?
Marc:He sat there.
Marc:He sat here.
Marc:Yeah, he sat right there.
Marc:You've met him before, though, haven't you?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, well, okay.
Marc:Don't you West Wing alumni have special privileges within the Democratic government?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Any of you could just go to the White House and you're like, oh, come on.
Guest:You're familiar with... I have to tell you, it's incredible to me how, as an actor, everybody loves Hollywood.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They will let you in anywhere.
Guest:I was doing research for one of the first movies I did, Presumed Innocent.
Guest:And I was playing a lawyer and they said, well, you can go to court.
Guest:And it was a superior court judge in New York.
Guest:And I walk in and she goes, oh, you're with the movie.
Guest:Come up, sit next to me.
Guest:And I'm sitting next to this judge as she's sentencing people.
Marc:Presumed Innocent, though.
Marc:That was a pretty good... Who directed that?
Marc:Alan Pakul.
Marc:Yeah, right?
Marc:And this was like, you know, he did the Parallax View.
Yeah.
Marc:didn't he yeah and he did sophie's choice yeah oh that's right all the president's men too yeah all the president's men that's such a great fucking movie yeah it is oh it's unbelievable all the president's but okay so working on the post yeah so how does that work you get a you get a script from spielberg you got an audition what yeah i imagine you got cast you didn't get you have to go read for it did you
Guest:I read the original script, and then there was, I heard talk that they were interested in me.
Guest:And then you go over to Amlin, and you go through some extreme security and a delousing procedure.
Marc:Right, they got to look in your eyeball, your iris, and a thumbprint.
Guest:And then you go into a secure room, and you sign an NDA.
Guest:before reading the script yes right no no before cuddling with mr spielberg you're not see you broke the nda i'm sorry i broke it i broke it um and so i read it and then uh you got to go sit there at amblin to read it yeah wow
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I was leaving.
Guest:It was a great script.
Guest:And I'm leaving.
Guest:And then they said, no, he wants to talk to you.
Guest:And then I go into a room and he comes in.
Guest:And...
Guest:Like, as an actor, you're like, you know, do I have it?
Guest:He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But he was funny.
Guest:He was like, this character is not a real human being.
Guest:This is not a human who existed.
Guest:It's a kind of an amalgamation of sort of male business interests.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he goes...
Guest:I like it when I don't know it's you, which is either a compliment or a criticism.
Guest:But he said, throw yourself off a little bit visually.
Guest:I'm like, okay.
Marc:What does that mean to you in that moment?
Guest:I sort of get what he wants.
Guest:I immediately go to a joke like, can I give him seizures?
Guest:Is there something like- A tick.
Guest:A tick.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Mild Tourette's.
Guest:Mild Tourette's.
Guest:I actually joked with him about that, about the opportunity, like I could do something incredibly crazy and specific and everybody watching this movie would think, wow, he must be nailing it because nobody would just play it like that.
Guest:And then he said, I want you to sound a little different.
Guest:Than you.
Guest:Than you.
Guest:An accent?
Guest:And he goes, yeah, but I don't really want to know it's an accent.
Guest:I'm like, so like a half-ass accent?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He's basically just saying like, don't bring yourself too much to this part.
Marc:Leave you at home.
Guest:I want you.
Guest:I need you to act.
Guest:Not that much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then, but the funny thing is that I go, like, it's a complicated script.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it moves around.
Marc:A little too much for my- Okay.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I liked it.
Guest:You were good in it.
Guest:Steven, that's what Marc Maron thinks of you.
Yeah.
Guest:So I said, are we going to rehearse?
Guest:And he goes, no, I don't like to rehearse.
Guest:He goes, Meryl wants to rehearse.
Guest:And I'm like, maybe you should do what Meryl wants.
Guest:And he goes, no, I don't like to rehearse.
Guest:And I think there are virtues, actually, weirdly, to not rehearsing.
Guest:And I go, well, when's the read-through?
Guest:And he goes, oh, I don't like read-throughs.
Guest:And he goes, yeah, Earl wants one of those.
Guest:And I said, why don't you like read-throughs?
Guest:And he said, because it gives everyone the impression that this process is more democratic than it really is.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Laughing.
Guest:But that was interesting.
Marc:So no read-through, no rehearsal.
Marc:You just show up for work on the day they're shooting your scenes.
Guest:Yeah, and you go quickly.
Guest:It's interesting because, like, I did a movie years ago with Eastwood, who's like the same thing.
Guest:You don't even know the cameras.
Marc:Which movie?
Guest:A Perfect World.
Guest:I remember it.
Marc:Cosner played heavy, and it was like a big deal, like he's playing a shitty guy, right?
Guest:Right, and he was great in that.
Marc:Yeah, I remember, yeah.
Marc:But so both Eastwood and Spielberg shoot quick.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and their virtues, their faults to it, you know.
Marc:Which are what?
Marc:You get done with the take and they're moving on.
Marc:You're like, but I didn't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, Clint's thing is, I asked him why he doesn't say action, and he said when he was doing Rawhide, they would struggle to get horses on marks, which is not easy to do.
Guest:And then these directors would come in and go...
Guest:Action!
Guest:And the horse would rear up.
Guest:And he felt like people do, too.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:Well, I think so.
Guest:Have you ever had directors who have a big action pronouncement?
Marc:Well, I mean, I haven't done that much.
Marc:I know you're probably thinking about my entire repertoire of films and television shows, but I've not done much.
Marc:But yeah, certain directors come in.
Marc:They do it differently.
Marc:But I've never been on a set with
Marc:a major director where everybody's sort of waiting.
Marc:You know, you're on TV set, and it's sort of like, you know, you know the guy who says it, and it's all right.
Marc:It's never been that jarring.
Guest:It's, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it's not a big deal.
Marc:There was one guy that, some people do it.
Marc:They're dramatic about it.
Marc:Action!
Marc:You know, like they, some people just say, action.
Marc:Action!
Guest:I know somebody who does, action!
Guest:And it's like, why are you making this?
Guest:Joel Schumacher was, everybody's focused.
And...
Guest:Action!
Guest:It was terrifying.
Guest:You're unfocused.
Guest:You know, Mike Nichols said this thing about directors that it's like sex.
Guest:Directors have no idea how other people do it because they're generally the only ones there performing that specific role.
Marc:Yeah, that's interesting.
Marc:Unless you started as a center photographer.
Guest:But as an actor, if you're on a series, you're getting fucked by somebody new every week.
Guest:I mean, you really get to see a lot of different styles.
Marc:What is the liability, though, of moving quickly, you were going to say?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, what's good about it... Do you care about baseball?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, when knuckleball pitchers come in, there are very few strikes thrown, and everybody in the field kind of gets lazy.
Guest:And if you know you're going to get an infinite number of takes...
Guest:you tend to not like really get ready yeah spielberg or with eastwood you know that your first take is going to be seen by your grandchildren right so you gear up you know it focuses the mind uh and it's changed now the technology like when west wing started you had to load film there was this tangible thing that you didn't want to run out of at the end of the
Marc:They had those big things that had to snap onto the camera.
Marc:What is it called?
Marc:Not cartridges or change the magazine.
Guest:Yeah, change the mag.
Guest:And with that, there's kind of a psychology of, you know, we don't want to waste this.
Guest:Now almost everybody is shooting digitally.
Guest:Money to waste.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there are virtues to it.
Guest:I actually think it's changed acting because you can afford to just, you know, leave it on and catch some behavior, but it also drags out the shooting process.
Marc:I think, yeah, I think that's true.
Marc:I think that like in the same way where like, you know, the shift from typewriter to word processor to computer, uh,
Marc:That, you know, it enables you not so much to get sloppy, but perhaps to over, you know, like it maybe makes you lazy in a way, too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If you're scrawling it with a feather and you can't erase it, you're going to like really think about it.
Guest:White out.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:If you got a hammer and a chisel on a wall, you're really going to think about it.
Marc:So that brings up, that's what's good about shooting quick.
Marc:Is that like it focuses you and you really got to show up for work.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And also it does something, it's a really interesting thing because...
Guest:Actors are always trying to get comfortable in a very uncomfortable situation.
Guest:And can tend to get too comfortable.
Guest:Like they will actually, especially in success as an actor, be more comfortable than any human being has ever been asking to pass the salt.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:Because they're just trying to get comfortable.
Guest:It's interesting to me how actors spent, like being relaxed is the most important thing as an actor, but it can sometimes lead to a kind of, I don't know, passivity.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah, but also, like, isn't there the threat to, and I only notice this with my limited experience in acting, that, like, if you get too comfortable, that you might just be you.
Marc:Like, you just, you know, comfort yourself right out of the character.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And where you don't, like, you do a scene, and you're like, wait, I think I, I don't think I was, I think I was just me eating.
Marc:Can we...
Marc:i forgot the character yeah right i mean is that possible or is that crazy yeah i i mean it's a weird thing because you're always like it's a whole discussion like act so when did you start acting yeah oh i mean like you know i did a little college here and there but i did four seasons of my own show on ifc and i knew that there was a curve you know i knew i was i knew i could be present and i knew i could listen but that's what you need to do
Marc:But there's something about movement that, you know, you're going to be awkward the first bit.
Marc:You know, I knew my first season.
Marc:You were awkward physically playing yourself?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because, like, you know, you don't want to be self-conscious of what you're saying, which I'm good at not doing that.
Marc:But I do get self-conscious of, like, should I just be standing here?
Marc:Am I my hands?
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:You know, like that kind of shit.
Marc:But then that goes away.
Marc:So I haven't been doing it professionally for that long.
Marc:Like with Glow, this is only the second big thing I've done.
Guest:I like Glow.
Marc:Oh, thanks.
Marc:I mean, I'm just a small part of it, but I appreciate you liking it.
Marc:Yeah, you're welcome.
Marc:But no, but I find myself, like this second season, I started to, like, originally I was sort of like, man, there's a lot of waiting around.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you're waiting around to do like a five minute thing.
Marc:And and like, you know, you can't get mad about it because, you know, you're lucky.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also that's the job.
Marc:But it's like I didn't I didn't act my whole life.
Marc:So a lot of times when I'm on set, I'm like, I could be doing other shit.
Guest:Listen, I say all the time, I love acting.
Guest:I despise shooting.
Guest:The process is, I love the community on the set, but it is this weird combination of glacial and anxious.
Guest:And you always think, I'm going to be able to get something done.
Guest:You can't get anything done.
Marc:No, you just sit there with your phone all day, you know, and then like I imagine whatever you shot last, you're just looking at the news constantly and trying to balance that emotional reaction with whatever you're doing.
Guest:Yeah, it's an excruciating.
Marc:Yeah, we were on set when Trump won.
Marc:All those women and me were there that night.
Marc:Jesus, how was that?
Marc:It's horrible.
Marc:Everyone was crying.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It was terrible.
Marc:But but in terms of your question asking me, like, I haven't been doing it that long.
Marc:And what I've noticed, what I was getting at was that in the second season, I realized, well, you know, work when you got to work, like, you know, really enjoy it.
Marc:If you like acting, it's going to happen.
Marc:Your scenes coming up.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, so deliver, you know, be in it.
Marc:As much as you can.
Marc:Like, that's when the work happens.
Marc:It's in television.
Marc:It's, you know, it happens quickly.
Marc:You got to do some coverage.
Marc:But like, you know, here comes your time.
Marc:You've been sitting around for four hours.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Get ready.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You got to get ready.
Guest:But the process is excruciating.
Guest:When I die and go to hell, it's going to be final touches forever.
Marc:like people grabbing stuff yeah you're just touching you but that's the other thing i think that that like i i imagine like i have some natural ability but i don't really i don't mind like i'm not paying attention when people are touching my face and my hair and you know what i mean like i'm in a different zone and this was i was going to ask you when you're working with certain people like i work with allison brie who's very good yes she's very good she is and uh and i don't have a lot of experience working with
Guest:Right, she's a very experienced actress.
Marc:And she really did something with that character.
Marc:There are moments where I'm watching her in scenes, and in my mind, I'm like, oh, look at her.
Marc:She's just doing it.
Marc:Beyond the character.
Guest:And then do you have a moment of like, oh, shit, I'm not thinking the character's thoughts?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But I think that's the next frontier for me.
Marc:I'm not sure I know exactly how to think the character's thoughts.
Marc:I react, I listen, I know the guy.
Marc:But there are parts, a lot of times, I think being present and acknowledging what's happening keeps me present, but it's not the character's thoughts.
Marc:Doesn't everyone have their own trick?
Guest:You know, like my thing, like the way I deal with like what seems to be an interfering thought, you know, that would be like, I'm not in the scene.
Guest:There's usually a way to kind of judo it back.
Guest:Like certainly with nerves and with panic, you can put it, you know, into the scene.
Guest:It goes to a weird, look, acting's a very...
Guest:One of my kids said, no offense, but I've seen dogs be good in movies.
Guest:And it's true.
Guest:How's that kid doing?
Guest:I'm like, you're welcome.
Guest:But nobody knows how to teach acting.
Guest:No, because so much of it is either you can or you can't.
Guest:It's like teaching writing.
Guest:And because nobody knows how to do it, you have these cults like fundamentalist Christian sects who look at a complicated world and go, you got to do it this way.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then, but, but, but you do, like, I think the experience, like the Gordon Lish writing cult in New York, and then there's all these acting cults out here.
Marc:But like, the one thing that gets you is it gets you interacting with other people.
Marc:And like, I, but I, you, where did you train mostly?
Guest:I went to college and did theater in English at Wesleyan, and then I went to Juilliard for four years.
Marc:But see, that's the thing about training to be an actor.
Marc:Some place like Juilliard, you're doing movement, you're doing dance, right?
Marc:You're doing sword play.
Guest:Yeah, but all that stuff doesn't matter.
Guest:Kind of, but I... Yes, you can teach how to use your voice.
Guest:Gets in your
Guest:body yes yeah but but you can't uh nobody knows you know how to teach acting the one thing you can agree on is you got to be in the moment you got to want something uh uh can't teach anyone how to be gene hackman no right no like the you know or error you it's just like you when you look at huge movie actors what whoever taught them whatever
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Guest:Well, it's like writing.
Guest:You just got to do it a lot and have some people with some good taste telling you what to do.
Marc:Yeah, and you've done a hell of a lot.
Marc:Well, let's go back.
Marc:Where were you spawned?
Marc:How did it happen?
Marc:Why are you you?
Guest:Where'd you come from?
Guest:Why am I me?
Guest:It's funny because I'm thinking about this.
Guest:Today is my mother's 103rd birthday.
Guest:She passed away.
Guest:Oh, God, I was hoping that was a better story.
Guest:Yeah, it would have been better.
Guest:My parents had three kids, a massive break.
Guest:My brother, the mistake, and I'm like the mistake's friend.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:So I have... Oh, they had him and then they're like, we got to have another one to... A playmate.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:So my mom was 46 when I was born, which was weird.
Guest:This year, my three oldest siblings will all have been married 50 years, which is...
Guest:Kind of weird, isn't that weird?
Marc:So what's the biggest amount of years?
Guest:19 years.
Marc:Between you and the youngest one?
Guest:No, and the oldest.
Guest:I'm the baby.
Marc:Right.
Marc:19 years.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you didn't even know them.
Marc:They were out of the house.
Guest:She was in college.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I have a niece who's 47.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I have a ton of nephews and nieces.
Guest:But what that meant was my parents, I was born in Madison, Wisconsin.
Marc:I like Madison, Wisconsin.
Guest:Madison, Wisconsin is fantastic.
Marc:Nice town.
Guest:It's a great town.
Marc:College is there.
Guest:Yeah, it's like Austin.
Marc:Yeah, and there's smart, sweet people in the Midwest.
Guest:Yeah, and it's kind of a progressive Shangri-La.
Guest:Right.
Marc:It's not as affected as Austin, I don't think.
Marc:I think the progressiveness of the Midwest when it's there, it seems a little deeper, a little more humble.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Polite people.
Guest:Yeah, they're very, very sweet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Very, very sweet.
Guest:So I was born there, then I moved to Pennsylvania, and then went back to Wisconsin for high school.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:What was the business of the folks?
Guest:My dad was a frustrated musician.
Guest:He basically worked his way up in an insurance company, but he was an amazing piano player.
Guest:He had perfect pitch.
Marc:Jazz?
Guest:Yeah, kind of big band stuff.
Guest:But it was interesting because he always, I think, kind of... I could tell...
Guest:that he kind of got off.
Guest:He never thought it was a practical thing for anybody to do.
Guest:It's interesting to me because I think about this.
Guest:People parenting now, like our generation of parenters are like...
Guest:Hey, we're cool.
Guest:We're totally cool with whatever you want to be, but what the fuck are you?
Guest:Are you a jock?
Marc:Are you talking about the parents or the kids?
Marc:The parents.
Marc:There's this weird- They're not grown up yet is what you're saying.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're overly invested in trying to control this process.
Guest:I was the fifth kid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My parents were like, you know, love them, keep them out of traffic.
Guest:Good luck with them.
Guest:They'll be whatever they want.
Guest:So they were appropriately disinterested.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If my father had done- About loving?
Guest:Totally loving.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:That's good.
Guest:I am extremely lucky.
Guest:They were at a very happy place and they knew I was the last one.
Guest:Every time I walked in the room, I felt like my parents would smile.
Guest:It was a really loving place.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Well, they'd been through the worst of it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:They'd already done it, and then they'd kind of chosen to do it again.
Guest:But I think about the fact that if my dad had come to me after the arsenic and old lace in seventh grade and said, as I would to my kid now, oh, my God, I have never seen you so happy.
Yeah.
Guest:do you want to take an acting class?
Guest:There is no question I would not be an actor because either I would have pulled against the leash or I wouldn't have the sense of ownership that I had because it was always this cool thing that just I was kind of in love with.
Guest:Now, my dad loved it.
Guest:I have just memory after memory of doing a play and my dad standing up with his flash camera and taking a picture.
Guest:But it's interesting to me that- Had he been overly supportive, you would have said, fuck that.
Guest:Oh, if Bruce Springsteen's mom came down and said, honey, you got something.
Guest:Like, you need to take some guitar lessons.
Guest:He'd be a drunk in Newark.
Marc:Put that guitar down.
Marc:We moved from Asbury Park to Newark.
Marc:That's a sad story.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He had to get out of Asbury.
Marc:That's right, because his mother was there trying to get him to play guitar.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Play it again, Bruce.
Guest:No.
Guest:Come on, Mom.
Marc:Come on, Mom.
Marc:Well, that's interesting.
Marc:I guess that's true, though, huh?
Marc:So your dad was accepting, but still was like, don't put all your eggs in one basket kind of thing.
Guest:No, he was totally... It never occurred to me growing up in Wisconsin, if you're from here or you're from New York, you know somebody who's been in a movie.
Guest:The idea of being an actor never occurred to me.
Guest:Even if it had, it would be too embarrassing a thing to say as an aspiration.
Marc:Right.
Marc:What did your siblings do?
Marc:By then they were working for Christ.
Marc:They all have careers, I would imagine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I have a brother who's a journalist.
Guest:I had a sister who's a social worker and writes children's books.
Guest:A sister who's a nurse.
Guest:Brother who's an interpreter.
Guest:Wow, that's interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a very liberal arc.
Marc:It is.
Marc:It is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:um uh but when i and then i applied to you know schmackling school and uh i remember i said to my dad i said just think of it as like because it was four years what'd you do undergrad though where'd you do undergrad wesleyan what would you study english english and theater i'd say but but theater what you weren't in the art school you you were you weren't in the theater school you were in the english department liberal arts
Guest:Yeah, it's basically a liberal arts school with a little crazy batshit theater department.
Marc:Right, but you were just doing a minor in that.
Guest:No, I was like a real theater major, but the thing about Wesleyan that is interesting is it unintentionally created the conditions, the ideal conditions, I think, for people to learn about acting, which is like a mini Steppenwolf.
Guest:It was all self-generated stuff.
Marc:Because it was so small or?
Guest:All the interesting stuff was outside the department and there were just these venues where you could put a play up.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it wasn't high pressure and people sort of found their voices.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was glad I got to do that, act a lot.
Guest:before I got to Juilliard, which is kind of a zen sucky, you know, we're going to strip you down.
Guest:It's a weird place to be if you're too young, I think.
Marc:So you do the undergrad thing and you do a lot of work.
Marc:You have a good time.
Marc:You do a lot of plays.
Marc:You got some chops.
Marc:You took some chances.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You started to feel the parameters of your talent.
Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:The limits, I call them.
Marc:You know what I mean.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And what you can and can't do maybe a little bit or no.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it was just fun and it did not have any professional aspiration to it.
Guest:It really didn't.
Marc:Were you getting good notices?
Marc:Were you getting like, were people thinking you were good?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Obviously to audition for Juilliard, you must have thought like, you know, I got this.
Marc:I can do this.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't think I could do it.
Guest:I thought that I could try it.
Guest:I remember pausing, looking at the letter when I got in.
Marc:To Juilliard?
Guest:Yeah, because it was like, this kind of means you're going to try to be an actor.
Marc:Well, what did you have to do?
Marc:Did you audition with a modern piece and a classical piece?
Marc:What was the audition?
Guest:Do you remember?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Look here upon this picture and upon this, the counterfeit presentment of the man.
Guest:It was a Hamlet thing.
Guest:I don't remember what the- The modern one, but it was those two.
Marc:Yeah, do two pieces with four people sitting there kind of thing.
Guest:I hate auditions.
Guest:I despise them.
Guest:I don't respect them.
Guest:I don't respect their ability to select auditions.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Talent or ascertain potential.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'll tell you a really interesting thing.
Guest:This happened.
Guest:I really should have taken a camera.
Guest:I thought of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:My class from Juilliard, we all got together.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which never happens.
Guest:After 31 years, we all got together.
Marc:How many are you, like 12, 15 people is it?
Marc:Like what is it?
Guest:It was over 20.
Guest:Yeah, it was about 20.
Guest:Back then they used to put people on probation and kick them out, which was abusive and stupid.
Guest:You know, the actors would come there and they would be told, you know, at the first, I never was, but they'd be told, you know, you're on probation, which is a great way.
Guest:For what?
Guest:Because we might kick you out.
Guest:But for what?
Marc:Not being good or... Oh, so that was actually sort of like, you know, you might... You're just not... Because there was no transgression other than you might not be talented.
Marc:So we're going to put a little more pressure on you.
Guest:Yeah, it was horrible.
Guest:There was this whole kind of school of, you know, this kind of British acting Nazi, like, school of thinking that I really for a long time...
Guest:disrespected in myself that I felt like I needed a nourishing atmosphere to act in.
Guest:Now I'm adamant.
Guest:If somebody's a prick or a bully, one of the best things about the luck I've had up to this point is now I can go, shut up, you insecure son of a bitch.
Guest:But there was a lot of crazy...
Guest:at juilliard it was a very tough uh a tough place and there were people who were younger than me there about half the class going to college half the class hadn't 18 years old 19 years old yeah it's crazy yeah uh and we all got together and it was i wish i'd filmed it because
Guest:It was one of the most moving... We hadn't seen each other.
Guest:Only a few of us are having the careers that we remotely hoped to have.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And people instinctively sat in a circle.
Guest:It was like a meeting and everybody talked and told their stories.
Guest:And it was like a chorus line fucked our town.
Guest:I mean, it was...
Guest:So inspiring to see what people who we were very, very close to at this time in our life had gone through.
Guest:And it was heartbreaking.
Guest:And to see the carnage of people walking around with an anvil of failure, feeling, I think, really hurt because...
Guest:They didn't get, you know, the most dangerous thing in the world is to put your self-esteem on a platter and hand it to show business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It won't end well.
Marc:Tell me about this anvil, because I think about that a lot in comedy, you know, where it's not a meritocracy.
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Guest:No, it's not.
Marc:There's a weird mixture of luck and persistence and representation and whatever.
Marc:There's a million things that determine whether it is.
Guest:It is not just talent.
Marc:Yeah, has any success at all.
Marc:No, talent is, you know, that's like, sometimes that happens.
Marc:Sometimes, you know, because your talent might be just, you're ambitious.
Marc:You might be good enough.
Marc:Your talent, being just good enough is highly rewarded.
Guest:Yeah, adequate, adequate, adequate.
Marc:So what about these people?
Marc:I mean, I'm not looking for names, but you did feel the heartbreak in the room is what you're saying.
Marc:Did it end happily, this reunion?
Guest:Yeah, it did.
Guest:I mean, I think people are, you know, it was just interesting.
Guest:It's interesting to me.
Guest:Like, you must deal with young comedians who get in touch with you who have your parents or friends or your parents or something.
Marc:Or they just reach out now because of the podcast.
Marc:Right.
Yeah.
Guest:I talk to young actors all the time.
Guest:I talked to one the other day and she was coming out of Julia and she's like, well, if you're good and you really work hard and you really want it, you can have an acting career, right?
Guest:And I'm like...
Guest:I'm like, if you're lucky, you know.
Guest:I mean, one thing I do believe that I say to these kids is, I really do believe that if you're good and you want it, maybe you won't be an actor, but you can have a life in storytelling.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's what I tell comics.
Marc:I'm like, well, look, don't bank on stand-up.
Marc:As your only thing.
Marc:Because, like, at any given point in time, there's only a few cats that are really making a good living as stand-ups.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And the rest are hammering it out.
Marc:So, if you can write, if you can work with other people... Yeah.
Marc:You know, if you can... Like, you know, I think that the sketch...
Marc:really changed comedy a lot.
Marc:It was stand-up driven on TV.
Marc:But now these people that come up through UCB or these sketch communities, they learn just by virtue of wanting to do that, how to write, how to direct, how to work with other people, how to listen.
Marc:It's an amazing thing.
Guest:I tell actors this too.
Guest:I think it's a very arbitrary... We're like, yeah, I'm an actor.
Guest:Well, actually, you're a soldier in the storytelling mission.
Marc:Yeah, I'm hearing this a lot lately, the storytelling thing.
Guest:And a lot of people can do a lot of things they don't think that they can do.
Guest:And I always tell actors, I'm like, look, man, if you have any desire to write, be writing while you're doing this.
Marc:Well, yeah, think about all the angles.
Marc:I'm not naturally like that.
Marc:I'm a very immediate gratification guy.
Marc:Even this idea that I've talked to a few actors lately where what you call the storytelling mission, that we're storytellers, we're part of the story thing.
Marc:I have to intellectually kind of process that because when I act, I'm like, am I on camera?
Marc:I like the story.
Guest:Yeah, no, you're not on camera going, hail the storytelling mission.
Guest:But it should be in you?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:All I'm saying is that at the end of the day, this whole thing is about telling stories.
Guest:And actors tend to not understand that they have a ground zero understanding of how to tell a story.
Guest:They have a really good sense of what works and what doesn't.
Guest:And whether it's directing or writing, I want them to be open to that.
Guest:And also, just being an actor,
Guest:You're... It's so passive.
Guest:You have to be chosen.
Guest:And it's heartbreaking.
Guest:I was thinking about this the other day.
Guest:Like... What's humiliating about being an actor when you're struggling is...
Guest:you're aspiring to an arena you disrespect success at show is this and you're failing like it's like a double thing it's not like you want to be a violinist you know in in the new york philharmonic and you're not you're just not quite there yeah like you're auditioning for a commercial which which which you despise and you're not getting it it's really rough
Marc:It's horrible.
Marc:There's some moments where I'm like, I don't always know what that is that keeps people going other than like, well, you know, there's plenty of big actors that done commercials.
Marc:You know, like I know that level.
Marc:Like, you know, this is just a stepping stone.
Marc:It's part of this process getting, you know, but there's also like, I'm starting to realize that...
Marc:That some actors, some who are lucky or some actors who do end up getting work, you know, they they just they don't like doing anything.
Guest:They don't like acting.
Marc:No, they like acting.
Marc:But they're just lucky because like if they if they were given some other job, they would do nothing.
Marc:There are people that act that is sort of like, are you kidding?
Marc:I get to pretend and I sit around.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:They're not hung up on writing or anything else.
Marc:They're like, this is like a con.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I mean, that's the negative side of it, but the heartbreaking side.
Guest:One of the Duplass brothers said one of the greatest...
Guest:not jay what's the bro mark is it mark yeah mark yeah uh somebody asked him is there a difference between acting writing and producing and he's like yeah yeah there's a big difference and they said what is it and he goes you know if you're writing or or producing or directing it's it's literally like you're raising a kid you're in a constant sense of anxiety am i going to be able to bring this thing to its this child to its full potential
Guest:When you're an actor, you're like a drunk uncle who shows up, gives the kids a bag of Oreos, and lets somebody else put them to bed.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, but that heartbreak of that.
Marc:Yeah, the fact that you've studied, you've trained, and you've got to go do an audition for a commercial you want nothing to do with.
Marc:But that's sort of like balancing that.
Marc:You can't be idealistic.
Marc:To get into acting for the art of it, that has to be crushed pretty quickly.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:you know once you realize yeah no i i talk to young kids who come with you know uh you know a real kind of artistic you know snobbery and and you know i'm like okay you know okay okay sweetheart good luck yeah good luck angel but did you do you did theater right so you come out of what did you learn at juilliard ultimately
Guest:What did I learn?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Without being cynical or funny, you must have learned something.
Guest:Here's what you learn.
Guest:The great thing about Juilliard was I went into debt, you know, but I was acting 90% of the day.
Guest:And that's what...
Guest:what is the most important thing and i'm doing very strange parts that i would not normally be cast in which even if i didn't not necessarily in order to be cast in those parts when you get out but i think it's it's a really good exercise to play things that are outside your range right so you can see you know it's owning your own territory what what can i do
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And you were just acting all the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:These schools are like... It's like shrinks.
Guest:It's like the shrink thinks it's them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No.
Guest:What's making somebody get better is they're just coming and saying what's on their mind.
Guest:That's 90% of it with the occasional insight.
Guest:So it's just...
Guest:It was a relentless, you know, four years of just acting in many, many different crazy things.
Marc:Do we know anybody that was in your class?
Guest:Tom Gibson, Wendell Pierce.
Guest:You know, those are the most, you know, sort of recognizable characters.
Marc:And the people that you saw at this reunion, did some of them move out of show business entirely?
Guest:Some do other things.
Guest:Some teach.
Guest:A lot of people kind of don't do it anymore.
Yeah.
Guest:But it's true in the other... I knew a guy who came in second in the Tchaikovsky competition, which is a really hard thing to do.
Guest:You go into these... Like, this is amazing at Julia.
Guest:You go in these, like, practice rooms, and this guy who, like, nine hours a day since he was eight, and he just, like, takes a breath, and he throws his hands at the piano, and he's moaning and, you know, playing this, like, Beethoven.
Guest:So it was, like, the most incredible thing you ever see.
Guest:He comes in second in the Tchaikovsky competition...
Marc:what does he do now i don't know he teaches piano to kids who don't want to learn yeah you know it's brutal yeah uh that's a very specific thing that's a good thing about acting is like is that you you can be you can start a culty acting class well no you can do commercials do you know that guy yeah you know they're calling for a prodigy
Marc:right it's like you know either you're the the soloist who plays with the orchestra right or what yeah yeah i mean i guess you could play how many new piano soloists are there every year i don't know if you like they're i'm not keeping up yeah yeah yeah and and they tend to stay stay around and work into working old age
Guest:so it's tough you know it's tough in the arts it's tough but but so okay so you you do all this acting and you get out and are you doing theater what happens i get out and initially crickets nothing is happening what'd you try to do were you in new york yeah yeah yeah you stayed in new york i was in new york i worked for a catering company did you do a showcase for agents and that whole thing yeah yeah nothing
Guest:No, I got an agent, but then nothing was happening.
Guest:I'd gone, you know, four years of graduate school.
Marc:Were you doing theater?
Guest:Well, initially I was catering in the Philip Morris dining room, seventh level of hell.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This corporate dining room where you had to arrange these bouquets of cigarettes.
Guest:And this is like 1985.
Guest:And you hear these slithery tanned people talk about the opportunities to give away cigarettes in front of girls schools in China.
Guest:That was fun.
Guest:And then I worked at the World Trade Center.
Guest:Bouquets of cigarettes.
Guest:Yeah, bouquets of cigarettes.
Guest:Did you smoke?
Guest:Did I?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would bum cigarettes, but I wouldn't buy them.
Marc:You don't got the personality?
Marc:You don't got the addictive thing?
Guest:No, I have to be careful with them.
Guest:I'll bum them.
Guest:I realized early on, I then got a part in a play and after acting would be a time where somebody else would have a cigarette and I'd bum a cigarette.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:World Trade Center.
Guest:And I thought, well, I only have cigarettes when I work.
Guest:And then I realized I work all the time.
Marc:Yeah, I'm always bumming cigarettes.
Marc:You worked at the World Trade Center?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:At the Port Authority dining room.
Guest:This was in, you know, like 85.
Guest:And then I got Bill Pullman dropped out of a show, Curse of the Starving Class, that was moving from off-off-Broadway to off-Broadway.
Guest:And he got a part in a movie, which was a big deal, and he had to take it.
Guest:And they were opening in a week.
Guest:And they thought about closing it down, but I ended up getting it.
Guest:So my first gig was this Curse of the Starving class, which was this Sam Shepard play with Kathy Bates, which was like dream gig.
Guest:I mean, it was scary.
Guest:You had to urinate on stage.
Guest:You had to, this kid freaks out early.
Guest:I usually don't like nudity in plays because you just sit there and go, oh, wow, I hope that actor's cousin isn't here.
Marc:That guy's naked.
Guest:Yeah, well, that's happening.
Guest:But it was a weird thing because this guy comes out completely naked and ends up slaughtering a lamb who we called Merrill Sheep.
Guest:and it was this, and I had to go into it in a week, and it's a big part with a big monologue, and I got to meet Sam Shepard, and that was intense.
Marc:You're what, 22, 23?
Guest:No, I'm 24.
Marc:Yeah, and he was directing, or he was just around?
Guest:No, he just came by with Jessica Lange.
Marc:Oh, you're fancy pants now.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, it was.
Marc:Did you know Pullman?
Guest:no no i ran into him in like the mayfair a couple years ago and i was like thanks for the career because it really was like the first did he remember did he know uh yeah yeah he was he was very very sweet about it but it was weird i i had this great uh you know for like nine months i was doing this playing it was weird you know kathy bates was amazing she's great she's great
Guest:The first night I had to go on, I had to learn this play in like six days.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's a big monologue at the beginning.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I remember the first couple of days of rehearsal where you're looking into these wonderful actors' eyes and you can see that they don't think you're going to be able to get there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:which is a horrible thing and i survived kind of sympathetic yeah yeah oh honey sweetie are you giving it a go uh anyway i was backstage right before it was opening night for and there were critics and i'd gotten the thing like you know a week before and i'm backstage and it's emotional at the beginning and my i'm sitting on the floor my legs are crossed and i'm like you know getting emotional and kathy
Guest:Kathy Beats walks by and goes, ah, what are you doing?
Guest:Preparing?
Guest:nice um but there's a guy named eddie jones i really wouldn't be an actor if this guy who played my dad eddie jones who was this terrific actor was got me through that oh yeah yeah i could have you know it was scary i was walking around i can't imagine it yeah i mean like and you just did it here's when you don't want to be naked yeah in rehearsal
Guest:Like, if the play's going on, that's great.
Guest:Like, you're in the reality of the play, whatever that is, and you're naked.
Guest:What you don't want to hear is the director go, okay, hang on one second.
Guest:Because then you're just a schmuck with your dick hanging out.
Guest:Standing there with other people.
Guest:Yeah, it's like, can we not break the reality?
Marc:Right, and it's not like movies or TV where you got a dick sock on.
Marc:No, you just got to wait it up.
Guest:Yeah, those are weird.
Marc:They are weird.
Marc:Yeah, I'm wearing one right now.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You took a liking to it?
Marc:You figure you wear it?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:So how did Eddie Jones help you?
Guest:He just said to me, he is an incredibly kind guy who has faith in me when he shouldn't have.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:And you had a lot of scenes with him?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was my dad.
Guest:It's that complicated- Shepherd dad thing?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Shepherd daddy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:Well, that's nice.
Marc:It's nice to have the one person with faith or trust or you at least can relax or know that you have some support.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I think that, like... Yeah, like trying to manage that confidence without it curdling... Breaking apart into... Into arrogance?
Marc:Well, arrogance, but the other way.
Marc:Like, you know, like what it takes to sort of... A full shame spot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, that's the one thing that experience gets you is less of those.
Guest:But I have to say, one thing that's interesting to me is...
Guest:that you can always incorporate, you can always judo your performance insecurity into whatever's going on in the scene.
Guest:And actually, there is nothing worse than a fully confident actor.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I agree with that.
Marc:I mean, it makes sense to me.
Marc:But what I'm surprised at is that I don't know how deep the Shane Sparles go with you, but as you get older, you can choose...
Marc:To not honor that voice, to not like, I can't do this, I can't, and just drag everyone around you down.
Marc:It took a long time for me to just sort of like, no, just keep it to yourself.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Well, I have this whole thing.
Guest:I am not somebody who I don't think is a prick on a set.
Guest:And I have the other problem is I want to be loved.
Marc:Running around making funnies.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:But if I'm honest, anytime any director has ever said anything to me,
Guest:i go through three silent beats fuck you i suck okay what and i really believe that that is a universal uh response and some people get stuck on i suck some you know people live there uh some people live on fuck you yeah yeah most people pretty quick get to the you know but you hear you you the the cycle starts right when it's probably just bradley
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Just the tone of your name being called.
Guest:You know, Brad... Oh, Matt Perry and I used to... These directors would do these devastating notes right before you roll.
Guest:They go, guys, can we be quiet?
Guest:Are we rolling?
Guest:Okay, we're rolling.
Guest:And...
Guest:Brad, don't push for that joke.
Guest:Action.
Guest:So, you know, like some devastating... Brad, just pick the prop up.
Guest:You know, don't make a meal.
Guest:Action.
Guest:You know, like you're totally humiliated.
Guest:So when Matt... You're trying too hard.
Guest:I got to direct Matt.
Guest:Yeah, don't try too hard.
Guest:You know, just say the line.
Guest:Action.
Action.
Guest:Don't do that shit with your face.
Guest:Action.
Guest:So when I got to direct, like to fuck with Matt.
Guest:On what?
Guest:On Studio 60.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I would go, are we rolling?
Guest:Okay, rolling.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And Matt, you peaked 10 years ago.
Guest:Action.
Guest:There is no happiness.
Guest:The reward is death.
Guest:Action.
Yeah.
Guest:Like these devastating notes that you have to go right into.
Guest:What do you think happened with that show?
Guest:You know, here's what I think about that show.
Guest:Studio 60.
Guest:Studio 60.
Guest:Aaron needs kind of moral elevation.
Marc:Well, yeah, let's talk about that first.
Marc:Where did your relationship with him start?
Yeah.
Guest:It's funny because people ask me, like, how did you meet Aaron Sorkin?
Guest:I did...
Guest:a movie that I was snobby about doing called Revenge of the Nerds 2, Nerds in Paradise.
Marc:Yeah, was that one of those acting decisions you made where you thought, I can really take my craft to... I'm going to dig deep.
Guest:I want to explore this.
Guest:I mean, I've played an asshole, but I've never played one on vacation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I met a guy, Tim Busfield, and he and I...
Guest:would hang out.
Guest:We went to the Humana Festival in Louisville and saw a bunch of plays.
Guest:And then he went in to replace in A Few Good Men.
Guest:And then he said to Aaron, I think you, this guy, I think you should see this guy.
Guest:So I auditioned for Aaron and Aaron made me like the Kevin Bacon part.
Guest:And then I got to understudy the lead and then I got a really big shot because
Guest:Usually they put, no offense to me, a fading television star in one of these things to keep a play going, but he ended up giving it.
Guest:Aaron stepped in and said, no, I want him to be the lead.
Guest:So I got to be the lead in a Broadway play, which was stunning and I didn't deserve it.
Guest:And that's where I met him.
Marc:And because like with him, I don't know him at all, you know, but I find that as time goes on, that it's a, Sorkinese is its own sort of, it's its own type of writing, its own type of acting in a way.
Marc:Like I started to notice it, not just, not like West Wing, but a little there, but also in the movies that in order to play Sorkin, you have to know how to do it.
Guest:Listen, I've seen really good actors who just, like, get the zen sucked out of them, you know, having to do it.
Guest:And there is this technical verbal obligation that you have to get to your unconscious place so that your blood can flow.
Guest:Like, the key to it, it's the same thing with Mamet.
Guest:Uh...
Guest:Who pisses me off because he teaches acting?
Marc:Why does that piss you off?
Marc:Because he's a playwright.
Marc:And what do you think about the way he teaches acting?
Marc:I think it's playwright-centric.
Guest:It's like, just say my words very clearly.
Marc:You're a pawn in my game.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:Anyone can do what you do.
Guest:Anyone can do it.
Guest:Just...
Guest:Just say my words.
Guest:But the great mammoth actors, their blood is flowing while they're fulfilling this album.
Marc:They're great actors despite him.
Marc:They didn't learn how to act through mammoth.
Guest:No.
Marc:Right.
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:You can bring life to the rhythm, man.
Marc:It's like Shakespearean in a way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And some people just get fritzed thinking about the logistics of the language.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And also just like, I imagine part of an actor struggle with Sorkin would be like, would a person say this?
Marc:Doesn't matter.
Marc:If you put the emotion into it, it will seem as though they would say it.
Guest:Yeah, I never felt like...
Guest:I mean, he's a very interesting writer.
Guest:It's really fun to do.
Guest:I bet.
Guest:When it's flowing, it feels like volleyball or something.
Marc:No, I love it.
Marc:And I didn't notice it until really...
Marc:until the the steve jobs movie because like i watch that movie and whatever anyone else was saying about whether it was real whether it wasn't real i'm like well it doesn't matter if it's real this is like you know hepburn and tracy yeah like you know in order to do this this language thing that he does you've got to get it and when it's working it's it's spectacular i mean i don't give a fuck about whether the story is what you know the device of the story well listen it's extraordinary that guy wrote
Guest:11, the equivalent of 11 feature films a year.
Guest:With West Wing.
Guest:For four years.
Guest:It will never be done again.
Guest:It's an extraordinary achievement.
Guest:Nobody will ever do that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Nobody's ever going to do it.
Guest:And he was writing...
Guest:You know, we would go in, I remember these, like, you go in and it was like, you know, you got a new Arthur Miller play every week.
Marc:Was everybody like, were you and Allison, everyone else was just like, oh my God.
Marc:Like every script that came out?
Guest:They were pretty great and they were a lot of fun.
Guest:I mean, Aaron is an impatient, in the best way, an impatient showman.
Guest:He's desperately worried he's going to lose the audience's attention.
Guest:So he brings these wonderful characters and, you know, there's a lot of wit.
Guest:You were talking about Studio 60.
Guest:One of the things with Studio 60 is like on West Wing, you have the political world.
Guest:Like basically you got C-SPAN and you bring in wit and you're like, oh, thank you.
Guest:funny when you're doing snl yeah and you bring in wit you're pissed off yeah uh you know i always felt that show i remember talking with aaron about it that i felt you know like i want to see like i want to see i think aaron could write a great well i guess he did yeah afterwards but
Guest:I think Anderson Cooper is under interesting pressures, where he talks about a school shooting, does a presidential campaign, and then has to get ratings.
Guest:Right.
Guest:SNL, the urgency in that show... That show was basically a show about writer's block.
Guest:Studio 60.
Guest:Yeah, and tried to build this terror of all the pressure that was on Matt's character.
Guest:Well...
Guest:I know Saturday Night Live is going to be on this week.
Guest:And I know they'll get something done.
Guest:And it may not be good, all of it.
Guest:But I think it had a sort of, I don't know, false content.
Marc:It wasn't authentic.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The show, the premise.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, I think that's probably right.
Marc:Oh, and then he did what?
Marc:He did Newsroom?
Marc:Was that what it was called with Jeff Daniels?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That was good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, he's a brilliant, brilliant writer.
Marc:Are you guys friends?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I see him.
Guest:He's like a big part of my life.
Guest:You know, I see him every couple of months.
Guest:We have dinner.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:And Aaron had this power.
Guest:My joke with him is that, you know, a great show about democracy and he ran it like Kim Jong-il.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you know it's uh you know we were waiting for the story you know to come from him and that's the way it needed you know it needed to be but it sort of uh and we treated him like a playwright yeah we're gonna make all these words work right you know we're not gonna go to you know hey uh bill uh
Guest:Don't we get it with to be or not to be?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Do we need that's the question?
Guest:No, like you would make it work.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, he's one of these, like, I don't know anything about him.
Marc:And I definitely tend to mythologize people in my mind.
Marc:And then when I meet them, I'm like always surprised that they're human.
Marc:But he seems to be sort of capable of these inhuman feats of creation that are sort of amazing.
Right.
Guest:Well, he does an interesting thing.
Guest:He's like, I'm going to paint on a big canvas.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like with West Wing.
Guest:It's so funny to me.
Guest:There's all these political shows now, like all kinds of political shows.
Guest:You know, the Veep is the comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Scandal is the kind of pulpy thing.
Marc:And then the other one, the one that the House of Cards.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when we were doing the show, it was like that arena can't work.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now it's like completely.
Marc:He broke it open for everybody.
Marc:let's talk like you did a lot you've done a lot of movies a lot of television and you were great and transparent that must have been now how now in terms of that set somebody's been around as long as you have that must have been a fairly unique environment incredibly unique like how did you come to that
Guest:How did I come to it?
Marc:Did Jill ask you to do it?
Guest:What was the casting?
Guest:It was funny because I was here and it wasn't a point of pride, but I had noted the fact that I was like the only actor of my generation who started in New York who had never done a law and order.
Fantastic.
Guest:So I was like, well, I'm never- You missed it.
Marc:You kind of missed it, right?
Marc:You weren't in those lean times during that time.
Guest:You were a little before, right?
Guest:No, I was up for stuff.
Guest:It just never happened.
Guest:And then I got asked to do this SVU, but it meant going to New York.
Guest:And I'm like, I don't want to go to New York.
Guest:And they said, it's with Tambor.
Guest:and he's always been one of my favorite actors and i was like oh if it's with him yeah i'll go uh and so i did that in the middle of a scene he said it's weird this like i'm doing this streaming show at amazon i'm like amazon's doing stuff yeah this was you know before it started i said yeah and it got picked up and then there was this part of this cross-dresser and he suggested me to chill
Marc:okay and you know uh but that it just sounds to me like i know jill a bit and it's some people that are involved in the show but it sounds to me that this was a very sort of modern work environment that yeah that was highly not politicized but it was at the cutting edge of of the new respect and uh ways of of engaging with people on gender levels
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And it was, you know, it was a freaky set.
Guest:I mean, you know, there's this kind of dilation on that set because people are, you know, you're dealing, you know, I never wore a dress before and, you know, I really want to make this work and it's, you know, it brings up complicated feelings.
Guest:Did it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was cool.
Marc:Like what?
Guest:Well, my number one fear
Guest:uh was to was that i would be condescending about it i actually had one of the most amazing experiences doing research for this i i you know just in like sort of an idiot like you know i'm gonna like you know sean penn this little yeah uh i got in touch with a a group that uh cross dresses and signed up to go you know i was just gonna go
Guest:yeah you know sure hang observe yeah yeah but but i was you know i was going to go undercover you know and it was delicate to get invited to this thing under you know understandably and i got myself invited as a spy right and then i realized also you're a public personality so well yeah i'm vaguely familiar yeah uh i don't know about that but uh
Guest:Then I called him up and I said, look, I want to be honest with you.
Guest:This is a safe place for you.
Guest:I'm doing this thing.
Guest:It was before the show had come out.
Guest:And I said, I can assure you this is not going to sentimentalize or condescend.
Guest:And I just want to do whatever I can to get it right.
Guest:They talked to everybody in the group and I went.
Guest:I was terrified walking into this place.
Guest:I mean, terrified.
Guest:So I was now not cross-dressing.
Marc:It's sort of like there's part of your masculinity at stake because you don't know yourself in this way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it was... I was shaking.
Guest:Like, I've done weird research.
Marc:What were you afraid of, though?
Marc:I mean, could you put your finger on it?
Marc:Like, walking into the place?
Marc:I mean...
Guest:It was an inarticulate reptilian brainstem Freudian fear.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Was I going to be turned on?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, yeah, you were threatened.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So what happened?
Guest:Door opens and, you know, it's somebody who really doesn't pass.
Yeah.
Guest:kind of gruffly yeah you know goes hey you know come on in mini skirt yeah you know sure you know and it's like you know and it's like i'm like you know you can see me kind of go like take a deep breath going this is this is going to be intense it turned out to be one of the most moving things
Guest:Because honestly that I've ever seen, they get together.
Guest:It's an apartment where people meet.
Guest:This is the night.
Guest:They get dressed.
Guest:The people who want to go out.
Guest:Some people really want to get dressed and go out and kind of pass.
Guest:They get falafel.
Guest:They bring it back.
Guest:And they sit together and they eat falafel and nobody's getting drunk.
Guest:Nobody's trying to pick up people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the range of experience was astonishing.
Yeah.
Guest:There were a lot of people who've gone heroically through 12-step stuff.
Guest:They have a secret or they've gotten beaten up.
Guest:Their kids wouldn't talk to them.
Guest:You'd hear these like,
Guest:heartbreaking stories and then this like 75 year old goes you know I'm hearing all these stories of whoa it's you know it's like my life has been a party this has been amazing you know you know I'm taken care of this watch is gold
Guest:And then there was an army guy there.
Guest:There were some people who are extraordinarily feminine and almost porny.
Guest:Some have like a schmata on with a wig.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it was just interesting to sit with these people who needed a sanctuary to be themselves.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was...
Guest:It was really fascinating.
Guest:There was this wonderful, God, what a character, like a 17-year-old Puerto Rican girl who did all their hair, loved to come on Wednesdays and do these guys up.
Guest:Anyway, what that experience did was it gave me total freedom.
Guest:There's a million different ways...
Marc:uh you know to do it honestly to do right to do it honestly but i was always afraid am i gonna you know make it make a cheap joke right well yeah but you mean on set you may or just like right like you not not during a scene you were gonna but like you were worried about your own weird defensive uh disposition popping up in the middle of it which yeah that would not be a good set to do that on
Guest:I do remember right before they said action, Jeffrey and I are fully cross-dressed.
Guest:And they're about to say action.
Guest:And I looked at him and I said, you realize this is the memoriam reel.
Guest:did he laugh yeah because he seems to be pretty deep in it when he does it very deep in it and and i guess he's not doing it anymore you got into some trouble yeah yeah yeah i i think he always felt am i doing justice to this yeah he did some insane work on that yes incredible work it's like some real risky shit yeah yeah it's a crazy set
Marc:Yeah, but it must have been a real baptism in the edge of cultural progress there.
Marc:What's going on in terms of identification, identity, how to address people, how to be respectful, especially when you're coming to it at your age or my age, where things are changing that dramatically in those communities.
Marc:The fear of saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing must be extraordinary.
Guest:I have a nephew who is trans and I actually find that most trans people are not freaked out about pronouns.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, because that's, you know, that's not the issue.
Guest:Of course, it's an understandable stumble that, you know, that people are going to make.
Guest:We're all trying to be comfortable.
Guest:So, you know, we're not going to, you know, call you a hater because you misspoke.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I think that these things on those levels where that dialogue is happening around pronouns, that that sort of has to happen to maintain the territory that they've gotten.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:That there needs to be a respect there.
Marc:I mean, maybe it'll make people more nervous about what to call people.
Marc:But but it needs to be there needs to be posts up saying, like, we're real.
Marc:This is this is happening.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And words are, you know, words are important.
Marc:Right.
Marc:How did you let's let's talk about the movie that's out now and up for Academy Awards.
Marc:How did he how did he find you?
Marc:How did that happen?
Guest:I heard that they were interested in me for a movie, and I was the biggest Key & Peele fan in the world.
Guest:I think he is a profound performer.
Guest:Jordan?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I think that's true.
Guest:uh, like the depth of the stuff he was doing in those sketches.
Guest:And if there is a tragedy about get out, it is that he don't want to act anymore.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Um, but, uh, I had been asking for years, just give me a, like a, honestly, anything in a background sketch.
Guest:Um,
Guest:You know, in one of his sketches, you know, I just want to be in one and my son loves it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I would have done anything he was going to do.
Guest:When I first heard about it, I assumed he was going to be acting in it.
Guest:Then I...
Guest:I talked to him and I remember he said, or he said, do you like horror movies?
Guest:And I'm like, do I, you know, I don't run out to see.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I get them, but I don't go see them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's like, I really, I really love them.
Guest:And the reason I love them is they're, they're about stuff you can't talk about.
Guest:They're about death and sex and nobody's done race.
Uh,
Guest:And weirdly, you know, like I was trying to think of just movies I've seen, you know, with a sympathetic black lead in a horror movie.
Guest:It's like Night of the Living Dead.
Guest:Right.
Guest:1968.
Guest:Didn't turn out well for that guy.
Guest:No.
No.
Guest:no he did what he could he did what he could yeah uh so then he sent me the script and i i remember coming out and saying to my fiance i learned this uh i've never read anything like this and uh i don't know if it's gonna work but you know it'll be it'll be amazing yeah so on paper it looked pretty great
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was like, whoa.
Guest:It was this combination of what I call a forehead knocker of like, oh, yeah.
Guest:10 years ago, haven't we done a horror movie that is really about race?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was a combination of that, and it was not something I had ever seen before.
Guest:And you're reading it, and you're going, is this funny?
Guest:I didn't know where I was.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't know where I was genre-wise.
Guest:Do you know it's going to work?
Guest:No.
Guest:Do you finish scenes going, yeah, no.
Guest:It's like, I don't know.
Marc:Yeah, because also there's this menacing wrong to it.
Marc:I imagine you finish scenes and you're like, ugh, that's kind of...
Marc:Horrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like, are you tipping it?
Guest:Are you setting it up without tipping it?
Guest:I mean, that's, you know, and Jordan was, he said, you know, this, it's just like comedy horror.
Guest:He's like, you got to set it up without anticipating it.
Guest:Let the tension expand and then pull a trigger.
Guest:And either it's a laugh or it's a scream.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He was very careful not to... He didn't want any jokes in there.
Guest:There were no jokes.
Guest:All the laughs are...
Guest:I remember at one point at the end I'd get killed with a deer head.
Guest:And it was just like one take where they ram this deer head into me and I have a white beard and blood comes out of my mouth.
Guest:So they want to get it one take.
Guest:And my one disagreement with him was I said, can I just like get hit and go, oh dear.
Guest:And he said, no, it's a joke.
Guest:Because his theory is like, no.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:No.
Marc:Oh, it was a pun.
Guest:Yeah, it was a little pun.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You can't have no room for puns anywhere.
Marc:But it was a 22-day shoot.
Marc:Nobody thought it was going to work.
Marc:There is a bit of a comedic relief with the guy's friend, that comic from Chicago.
Marc:Lil Rel.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It wasn't a joke, but that was reality calling, and that was very funny.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Great ending.
Guest:Great ending.
Guest:You know he changed it, right?
Guest:No, I don't know anything about it.
Guest:The original ending was...
Guest:You see him killing everybody in the driveway and you hear a cop car and you see the red lights on his face, cut.
Guest:He's in prison.
Guest:Laurel, the TSA guy, is visiting him and saying, we gotta get you out.
Guest:We know the truth.
Guest:You're not gonna rot in a prison.
Guest:And Chris, Daniel Klee's character says, no, it's okay.
Guest:We stopped him.
Guest:That was the end.
Guest:The brilliant thing that Jordan did was, which could be perceived as kind of a lecture about mass incarceration or injustice or something.
Guest:What he did with the ending, the way he reshot it, was you see the lights in the guy's face.
Guest:There is a huge laugh when the door opens and you realize it's not a cop, it's a TSA car.
Guest:There's a huge laugh of relief.
Guest:And it's a much more powerful way because if you are laughing at that, you have internalized the truth that the cops can be a threat to an innocent black man.
Marc:Oh, when you see those lights, the whole history of that hits you.
Guest:But it's so much better than just sort of telling you this, you know, an injustice occurred.
Guest:What he did is the most unbelievable thing I've ever experienced.
Guest:First time out of the gate.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:22 days.
Guest:Like, it was quick.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he's a solid guy.
Guest:He's the sweetest...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and there's just glee in him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he is kind to everybody, which I really appreciate.
Marc:Oh, that's sweet.
Marc:Did I hear you say fiancé?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're getting married again?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When's that happening?
Guest:I think it's going to happen during my... It seems like when your three oldest siblings are celebrating 50 years and the whole family's going to be together, that might be a good time.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, Amy Landecker.
Marc:From Transparent.
Marc:From Transparent.
Marc:You met her on Transparent.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:In a dress.
Marc:You were wearing a dress when you met her.
Guest:I was wearing a dress.
Guest:We did not connect at that time.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Has she been married?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Kids?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So you've both had lives?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:We've both come out of some emotional white water into a glade, a cool pool of peace.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Well, I hope that works out for you.
Marc:I'm serious.
Marc:Yeah, thank you.
Marc:It was great talking to you, man.
Marc:You too.
Marc:My pleasure.
Marc:Nice guy, right?
Marc:He's got a little cut to him, got a little edge, got a little intensity.
Marc:Grounded.
Marc:I like him.
Marc:I like that Bradley Whitford fella.
Marc:As I said, you can see the new season of The Handmaid's Tale on Hulu.
Marc:He's in that.
Marc:That premieres this week.
Marc:You see him in the movies Get Out and The Post.
Marc:You can watch reruns of The West Wing for probably a year if you really wanted to.
Marc:I'll talk to you again from probably Dublin.
Marc:I'm thinking, maybe Amsterdam.
Marc:I'll let you know at the time of recording.
Marc:Boomer lives!
Boomer lives!