Episode 906 - Ben Harper & Charlie Musselwhite / E of Eels

Episode 906 • Released April 11, 2018 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:All right, let's do this.

00:00:10Marc:How are you?

00:00:11Marc:What the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fucking ears?

00:00:14Marc:What the fuckadelics?

00:00:15Marc:What's happening?

00:00:16Marc:I'm Mark Maron.

00:00:17Marc:This is my podcast, WTF.

00:00:19Marc:Welcome to it.

00:00:20Marc:A big, a big blues show today.

00:00:23Marc:It's almost like a blues concert.

00:00:25Marc:But, you know, I would not say that Mark Oliver Everett from the Eels is a blues artist.

00:00:36Marc:But I would say that there's a heavy heartedness to it.

00:00:39Marc:Wouldn't you wouldn't you Eels fans say there's a heavy heartedness, heavy heartness, heavy heartedness.

00:00:48Marc:That's what makes the Eels beautiful.

00:00:50Marc:That's what makes the music beautiful.

00:00:51Marc:There's a new Eels album out.

00:00:53Marc:It's called The Deconstruction.

00:00:55Marc:It's available now wherever you get your music.

00:00:58Marc:I haven't talked to Mark in a while.

00:01:00Marc:He's been here before, but he's on the show today and also very exciting.

00:01:07Marc:ben harper and charlie muscle white charlie muscle white is one of the originals man he's one of the original new generation blues guys from chicago around back in the late 60s early 70s been going ever since ben harper you know from his ben harperness he's been around a couple of decades now as well but not as long as charlie muscle white blowing that harp

00:01:30Marc:And this is the second album they've done together.

00:01:33Marc:It's called No Mercy in This Land.

00:01:35Marc:Also available wherever you get music.

00:01:37Marc:And both of these cats, both of these acts, both Mark, Oliver Everett, and Ben and Charlie do a tune.

00:01:46Marc:Now, I've got to be honest with you.

00:01:48Marc:We do post some of these interviews out of order.

00:01:51Marc:They don't go in the order of when I recorded them.

00:01:55Marc:But I will tell you this.

00:01:58Marc:Ben Harper and Charlie Musselwhite,

00:02:00Marc:were the last interview in the garage, in the old garage.

00:02:05Marc:You'll be hearing other interviews from that garage, but I thought you might want to know that this was the last one.

00:02:09Marc:I thought it was appropriate and coincidental that a pair of blues artists

00:02:16Marc:Did the last blues in the garage and they do play some blues.

00:02:21Marc:And that was it.

00:02:22Marc:I got to get this place.

00:02:23Marc:I got to get the new place up and cranking for the music situation.

00:02:27Marc:I do like when people play music in front of me.

00:02:29Marc:Mark Oliver Everett also played a tune that was recorded in the old garage.

00:02:34Marc:Some of these are some of the final interviews from that garage, though there might be some from a few months back.

00:02:40Marc:I'm just telling you.

00:02:41Marc:If you wanted to point a reference for the end of that situation over there, this is what's going on.

00:02:48Marc:And I'll tell you, man, to sit there and ride the faders when Charlie Musclewhite's blowing harp, it was one of those situations where, you know, Everett just had a guitar, an acoustic guitar.

00:03:01Marc:I can just stick a mic in that.

00:03:02Marc:But, you know, Charlie and Ben, we didn't know if we were going to be able to do it, and they had...

00:03:08Marc:They brought in, they came in with two Fender champs.

00:03:11Marc:Not old ones, but two little Fender champs.

00:03:14Marc:One for the harp and one for Ben's guitar.

00:03:17Marc:Everyone's going to be playing today on the show.

00:03:20Marc:So listen, I'm excited.

00:03:25Marc:To bring to you my conversation with Mark Oliver Everett.

00:03:30Marc:I always enjoy seeing him.

00:03:31Marc:He's a thoughtful and bright young man.

00:03:34Marc:And his new album with the Eels is called The Deconstruction.

00:03:40Marc:It's available now wherever you get music.

00:03:42Marc:And this is me talking to Mark Oliver Everett.

00:03:50The Deconstruction

00:03:53Marc:Is this your second or third time?

00:03:56Marc:Second.

00:03:57Marc:It's only the second time?

00:03:59Marc:It seems like I've already done it.

00:04:01Marc:You seem familiar to me.

00:04:02Marc:You're timeless.

00:04:03Marc:Thank you.

00:04:03Marc:Yeah.

00:04:04Marc:You look well.

00:04:05Marc:Yeah, you too.

00:04:06Marc:It's been a while since you've been here.

00:04:07Marc:I don't remember.

00:04:08Marc:I think it went well the last time.

00:04:09Guest:I think it went really well, yeah.

00:04:10Guest:People seem to regard it as a good episode.

00:04:15Marc:A good Mark E. interview.

00:04:19Marc:Yeah.

00:04:20Marc:The fans are like, that was good.

00:04:21Marc:I learned some things.

00:04:22Marc:Yeah.

00:04:23Marc:I thought I knew everything about you.

00:04:24Marc:Yeah.

00:04:25Guest:It's like someone finally got under his skin and opened him up.

00:04:27Marc:Oh, come on.

00:04:28Marc:Come on.

00:04:28Marc:You did it to yourself.

00:04:31Marc:So, but that was a few years ago, man.

00:04:34Marc:Yeah.

00:04:34Marc:That was like five or six years ago.

00:04:36Marc:I feel like I've run into you a couple of times.

00:04:38Marc:Is that what's happened over the years?

00:04:40Guest:Well, we saw each other at the, we sat next to each other at the Gary Shandling Memorial.

00:04:45Marc:Oh, that's right.

00:04:45Guest:That was, yeah, that was kind of.

00:04:47Guest:What an amazing night that was.

00:04:48Guest:It really was.

00:04:49Guest:We were in the front row.

00:04:49Guest:It was you, me, and Tom Petty.

00:04:51Marc:Yeah.

00:04:52Marc:Did you talk to him?

00:04:53Marc:I did get to talk to him.

00:04:54Marc:I've never talked to him here.

00:04:56Marc:You know, he looked fragile.

00:04:58Guest:Well, I had an experience with him afterwards.

00:05:01Guest:It was.

00:05:02Guest:Is this a good experience?

00:05:04Guest:Notable.

00:05:04Guest:Yeah, it was a great experience.

00:05:05Guest:It was the only time I've ever met him.

00:05:08Guest:We just all happened to walk outside onto the sidewalk after.

00:05:12Guest:He was having a smoke?

00:05:13Guest:He was having a smoke and he literally fell off the curb and I caught him in my arms.

00:05:21Guest:He was free falling, you might say.

00:05:23Guest:Yeah.

00:05:24Guest:And so I'm holding Tom Petty in my arms.

00:05:29Guest:Which later became very poignant after he died and you heard about his hip problems.

00:05:33Guest:I didn't know this at the time.

00:05:34Guest:Yeah.

00:05:35Guest:I just thought he was stoned.

00:05:36Guest:Right.

00:05:36Guest:And he was just so nice.

00:05:39Guest:He was like, hey, you know, I've been listening to you for a long time.

00:05:43Guest:And I was like, wow, that means a lot from you, Tom Petty.

00:05:46Guest:I call them Tom Petty.

00:05:48Guest:Yeah.

00:05:49Guest:And we just like sat out there and shot the shit for a while.

00:05:51Guest:It was great.

00:05:52Guest:Yeah.

00:05:52Guest:He seemed like a pretty sweet spirited guy.

00:05:55Guest:Super sweet from what I could tell.

00:05:56Marc:And he's been listening to you for a long time.

00:05:58Marc:That's what he said, you know, to my face.

00:06:01Marc:Did he know you?

00:06:02Marc:Was that the moment of introduction?

00:06:04Marc:That was the only time I'd ever met him.

00:06:06Marc:When you fell, you told him who you were and he went, oh, I know you kind of deal?

00:06:09Guest:Well, I didn't say who I was because I had played a song during the memorial service.

00:06:13Marc:Oh, that's right.

00:06:13Marc:I remember.

00:06:14Marc:That was great.

00:06:15Guest:Thanks.

00:06:15Guest:That's right.

00:06:17Guest:You were up there with the sadness.

00:06:19Guest:I was up there with the sadness.

00:06:19Guest:I brought the sadness.

00:06:20Guest:Elevating the sadness.

00:06:21Guest:What tune did you do?

00:06:22Guest:I did It's a Motherfucker.

00:06:23Guest:Yeah, that's right, yeah.

00:06:25Guest:And remember, like, Warren Beatty and Annette Bening were right behind us.

00:06:30Marc:Right behind us.

00:06:30Guest:It was the closest I'll ever get to sitting at the Oscars, you know?

00:06:34Guest:Yeah.

00:06:34Guest:It was crazy.

00:06:35Guest:But that was such a beautiful night.

00:06:36Guest:Like, that was, like, one of the best nights I think I've ever had.

00:06:41Marc:Like, it was just a full experience.

00:06:44Marc:It really was.

00:06:44Marc:And I, you know, like, I didn't know Gary that well.

00:06:47Marc:I had interviewed him.

00:06:48Marc:But to sort of feel the kind of his whole person...

00:06:53Marc:come together through other people's eyes like that.

00:06:56Marc:Sadly, at a memorial, but it was really kind of registering the impact he had on other people was phenomenal.

00:07:04Guest:It was like everything you want.

00:07:07Guest:Laughter, tears, and hopefulness.

00:07:10Guest:It was just amazing.

00:07:12Marc:Yeah, it was genuinely life-changing for me, to tell you the truth.

00:07:18Guest:Yeah, me too.

00:07:20Guest:I really identify with...

00:07:22Guest:the whole Gary thing.

00:07:24Guest:And like, I feel like I've been on a similar quest, my version of it, you know.

00:07:29Guest:Did you know him?

00:07:30Guest:I never knew him.

00:07:31Guest:I've been in the same room with him several times, but I never actually had the nerve to talk to him.

00:07:35Guest:Which quest?

00:07:35Guest:The spiritual one?

00:07:37Guest:Well, not the spiritual one so much, but sort of, you know, like the self-improvement quest, you know.

00:07:46Marc:Sore spot.

00:07:48Marc:I just don't know, man.

00:07:49Marc:You know, because like...

00:07:50Marc:I know about it and I've engaged in it, but to really engage in it, to go full in, that was sort of one of the things about the Shandling story and about that night that kind of blew me away was that there were things that he went to as far as you can go to sort of get spiritual and get self-improvement.

00:08:13Marc:And there were some areas of his life that I don't feel

00:08:17Guest:you know from in retrospect and how it was you know being presented by his peers that that he he had much success in fixing them well i think you know i there's a clip that i just saw recently that might be from the doc the judd yeah doc i think i saw a clip of sarah silverman saying

00:08:37Guest:you know, it wasn't that Gary was so zen, it was that he was so in need of being zen.

00:08:42Guest:Yeah.

00:08:42Guest:And that's, I totally identify with that.

00:08:44Guest:It's like, guys like him and guys like me who are on those kind of quests, it's because we fucking need it.

00:08:51Guest:You know, it's not like, because we're experts on any of it, we're trying, it's like on this new album, way to tie it in.

00:08:57Marc:The deconstruction.

00:08:57Guest:yeah it's like I'm not an expert in any of the songs on this album if I'm talking to someone in one of these songs I'm simultaneously talking to myself or maybe I'm only talking to myself and just it's all like notes to self this is you know if you want to live better try this you know yeah well I mean certainly I've had my experience with that and you know the need

00:09:17Marc:To have some relief is, you know, to surrender at that level.

00:09:24Marc:You know, it requires some sort of surrender, right?

00:09:27Marc:Right.

00:09:29Marc:And to live in that vulnerability is, you know, it can be a tall order if you have things to do.

00:09:36Right.

00:09:36Marc:yeah i mean that's the thing is like it's work it's like vigilance and like you're gonna live on a monastery and all you got to do is your chores then it's yeah it's probably a little easier right if you can just deal with the detachment right but if you have to go out there in the world and especially if your creative process is driven by yeah you know the the fury of malcontent

00:10:01Marc:Right.

00:10:02Marc:Or self-annihilation or self-judgment, whatever it is.

00:10:05Marc:Yeah.

00:10:06Marc:Self-involvement.

00:10:07Marc:Right.

00:10:08Marc:You know, how do you shift?

00:10:11Guest:Yeah.

00:10:11Guest:I mean, that's why it's not easy.

00:10:13Guest:You know, we'd all be like perfect people if we all knew how to do that.

00:10:16Guest:Well, is this a concept album?

00:10:18Guest:Well, you know, for a long time, I didn't know I was making an album.

00:10:22Guest:I took what turned into a four-year break, basically, since the last one.

00:10:26Guest:Didn't you have a kid or something?

00:10:28Guest:I have a kid now, yeah.

00:10:29Guest:Yeah.

00:10:30Guest:Spoiler.

00:10:30Guest:How old is that kid?

00:10:33Guest:He's only about 10 months old.

00:10:36Guest:How did I know that?

00:10:37Guest:I don't know.

00:10:37Guest:How do you know that?

00:10:39Guest:I don't know, but I felt it.

00:10:40Marc:I don't feel like you'd be a good babysitter.

00:10:43Marc:No, I'd be a fine babysitter.

00:10:44Marc:I don't know how great a father I'd be in the long run.

00:10:45Marc:When can you do it?

00:10:47Marc:I don't know.

00:10:47Marc:We'll check my schedule after this.

00:10:49Marc:But that's 10 months.

00:10:51Marc:Yeah.

00:10:52Marc:Okay, so you didn't know you were making this record.

00:10:55Guest:I didn't know I was making a record, and I just needed a break.

00:10:59Guest:If you do too much of one thing in your life for too long, it catches up with you.

00:11:04Guest:I don't know if you have any experience with that.

00:11:06Guest:Sure.

00:11:07Guest:Yeah, I do.

00:11:09Guest:You start to lose your mind.

00:11:11Guest:Yeah, well, in my case, it was work.

00:11:13Guest:That's all I paid attention to pretty much for...

00:11:18Guest:Going on 25 years.

00:11:19Guest:Yeah.

00:11:20Guest:And it was just an incredibly unbalanced life.

00:11:24Guest:Right.

00:11:24Guest:And so I got to the point four years ago where it just became very clear, like, I need to take a break and start to pay attention to the other side of life.

00:11:33Marc:Yes.

00:11:33Guest:All the other sides of life.

00:11:34Marc:Yeah.

00:11:36Marc:And the child makes that a pressing situation.

00:11:39Guest:Well, that didn't happen right away.

00:11:40Guest:You know, that only happened 10 months ago.

00:11:42Marc:I know.

00:11:43Marc:But I mean, like, that's one of those things where it's sort of like, my God, you're forced to be selfless.

00:11:49Marc:Right.

00:11:50Marc:Yeah.

00:11:50Marc:And show up for, you know, in a way that, you know, is I imagine it's.

00:11:57Marc:somewhat innate, but it's certainly, you know, the good time, the other priorities thing, life, living life becomes very immediate.

00:12:06Guest:There is a lot of innate stuff that does happen that, you know, is nice that it's just automatic, you know.

00:12:11Guest:Thank God.

00:12:12Guest:Yeah.

00:12:13Guest:Thank God you have that in place.

00:12:14Guest:Yeah, no.

00:12:14Guest:You're not a psychopath.

00:12:15Guest:Yeah, like you probably think you're not a kid person and all that stuff.

00:12:19Guest:And, you know, I was basically like, that's not in the cards for me at this point.

00:12:23Guest:You know, I'm so fucking old.

00:12:24Guest:How old are you?

00:12:25Guest:I'm like your age.

00:12:26Guest:How old are you?

00:12:27Guest:54.

00:12:29Guest:Uh-huh.

00:12:29Guest:And you have one.

00:12:30Guest:And I have one, and I'm just getting started, which is insane, because all my friends are becoming empty nesters, and they're like, we'll see.

00:12:38Guest:Finally, we're free.

00:12:39Guest:I guess we won't be seeing you anymore.

00:12:40Guest:Don't ruin this for us.

00:12:43Guest:But you do become, when it's yours, all the cliches that people say, it's true.

00:12:49Guest:You become the guy that I'll just like...

00:12:51Guest:I'll just sit there and just flip through and play the same videos of him over and over again.

00:12:56Guest:And it's just like, you know, you make strangers look at pictures of your kids.

00:13:01Guest:It's just fascinating.

00:13:02Guest:It just happens, you know.

00:13:03Guest:And it also, then you become like a kid person in general.

00:13:08Guest:You start to understand other people's kids, why they're so great too.

00:13:12Guest:Right.

00:13:12Guest:It's just this thing that happens.

00:13:13Guest:You're part of the cult now, the kid cult.

00:13:14Guest:I'm part of the cult.

00:13:16Guest:It's quite a pleasant surprise to see that you...

00:13:21Guest:You can become that.

00:13:22Guest:Now, was this an on-purpose kid?

00:13:23Guest:No, this is a surprise kid.

00:13:25Guest:Oh.

00:13:27Guest:And that's good that you like him.

00:13:28Guest:We made him the old-fashioned way by surprise.

00:13:33Guest:Are you with the woman?

00:13:35Guest:Well, the other surprise is then his mother has divorced me.

00:13:39Guest:Oh.

00:13:40Guest:Yeah.

00:13:40Guest:So, that was another surprise.

00:13:42Guest:That was not something I had in mind.

00:13:45Guest:Wait, so you were married?

00:13:47Guest:Yeah.

00:13:47Marc:And then you had the kid?

00:13:48Guest:Yeah.

00:13:49Marc:And then she's out?

00:13:50Guest:Yeah.

00:13:50Guest:in quick succession wow that's kind of heartbreaking or was it time i don't know uh no it's been devastating for me but you know and a lot of what this album is about is like this the i think the key to happiness if there is one yeah is please tell me accepting your reality and just making the decision to be happy with it or as happy with it as you can be you know

00:14:15Guest:It is a decision, huh?

00:14:16Guest:It's a decision.

00:14:17Guest:For people like us.

00:14:19Guest:The last song on this album is specifically about that, that there's a place we can all go to within ourselves that's just a place where you can make a choice and just say, well, this is my reality.

00:14:31Guest:I'm going to be happy with it or I'm not going to be happy with it.

00:14:33Guest:Right.

00:14:33Guest:And that, you know, it takes work and it's hard to do.

00:14:36Guest:But so take my situation that's happening right now.

00:14:40Guest:It's quite an extreme unexpected situation for me.

00:14:43Guest:Yeah.

00:14:43Guest:But I'm able to look at all the good parts about it.

00:14:47Guest:You know, it's not how I pictured things turning out.

00:14:50Guest:It's particularly wrenching for me.

00:14:52Guest:after all the tragedies of losing my first family early, I was the last one standing.

00:15:00Guest:Of your father and your mother.

00:15:03Guest:And my sister.

00:15:04Guest:And your sister, yeah.

00:15:04Guest:So to then finally get to a point where I have another family and then have it taken away is very painful, as you can imagine.

00:15:12Guest:But there's so many great things about it.

00:15:15Guest:My son, Archie, is fucking delightful.

00:15:18Guest:I'm completely in love with him.

00:15:19Guest:Yeah.

00:15:20Guest:His mom is a great mom.

00:15:23Guest:And watching them together is inspiring.

00:15:25Guest:It's this amazing love story.

00:15:28Guest:And we're able to maintain a friendship.

00:15:31Guest:And she lives right down the street.

00:15:33Guest:It's got an unconventional family vibe, at least still.

00:15:38Guest:So again, it's just not what I pictured.

00:15:40Guest:But there's a lot of things to be thankful for.

00:15:43Guest:And I just have to hang on to the good parts of it.

00:15:47Guest:And it's always, that's really all there is to life, I think, is it's just always going to be some sort of shitstorm.

00:15:55Guest:It's just all constant motion.

00:15:57Guest:You just have to get comfortable with the motion.

00:15:59Guest:I think when I took this break, I naively thought, okay, all the drama of my life is over.

00:16:06Guest:and now it's going to be calm and amazingly i had like one really nice calm year that was just like the happiest i'd ever been yeah because it was everything i wanted yeah and i was and i actually got it and like what i was just like relaxing for a year and just doing fun stuff yeah and not worrying about anything you know yeah

00:16:27Guest:And it's amazing that it lasted that long.

00:16:29Guest:And then it just all went out the window.

00:16:30Guest:And now it's like just crazy onslaughts that couldn't be the more opposite of that.

00:16:37Guest:And, you know, that's what life is.

00:16:39Guest:That's what my life is anyway.

00:16:40Marc:Well, I was so close to, I think, in my mind doing that, like just pulling out and taking the time.

00:16:45Marc:And then it didn't happen.

00:16:47Marc:Like I was almost going to buy a house in New Mexico.

00:16:49Marc:And then I ended up down the street.

00:16:52Guest:yeah yeah you know and so like you but because i let people convince me like it wasn't time to put myself out to pasture yet yeah you know like there's still work to be done that's what i thought when i first started this break four years ago for a while i actually felt like i might just be done right i don't know if i'm ever going to get back to it yeah yeah and how'd that feel

00:17:13Guest:It felt like just necessary at the time.

00:17:15Guest:Like I just hadn't... You were okay in that moment with being done.

00:17:17Guest:I was okay because it was like that thing where life lets you know you need to stop.

00:17:23Guest:And it was only like I would just give myself the luxury of if I woke up one morning and I was super inspired to write a song, I'd go and write it and record it.

00:17:32Guest:And then it might be like six months before I had that happen again.

00:17:36Guest:So that's why this wasn't a planned record.

00:17:39Marc:It wasn't a planned record.

00:17:40Marc:It slowly turned into a record, yeah.

00:17:42Marc:So, like, in some ways, you know, there was a natural evolution to these songs.

00:17:51Guest:Yeah, I mean, it's a great way to make a record if you have that luxury of that much time.

00:17:57Guest:Because it's just song by song.

00:17:58Guest:It's very feel-driven.

00:18:01Guest:It's just all about, like, what's this song about?

00:18:03Guest:And that's all you're thinking about.

00:18:04Marc:And you might have actually been, you know, doing some sort of, you know, emotional and spiritual geometry with them.

00:18:12Marc:Like you were working out.

00:18:14Marc:Without knowing.

00:18:15Marc:Right, right.

00:18:15Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:18:16Marc:Because when you feel the impulse to make some sense poetically of something.

00:18:21Guest:Yeah, and it often means something other than what you think it means at the time.

00:18:24Marc:Yeah.

00:18:26Marc:Now, the arc of the thing, the deconstruction, that song and the title of the record, does it all fall under that?

00:18:37Guest:Well, what I was thinking about there was like, you know, a personal deconstruction of like how we all spend a lot of our lives building up these defenses and these walls around ourselves.

00:18:49Guest:And I was just thinking like, well, what's on, if we tore down those walls and those defenses, what's there that we're protecting?

00:18:56Guest:What do we start with?

00:18:57Marc:About a five-year-old.

00:18:58Marc:About a five-year-old tops, right?

00:19:00Guest:Yeah.

00:19:01Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:19:03Marc:Like whatever we're protecting was something or someone that was old enough to be hurt somehow in such a way that he was going to hide for this amount of time.

00:19:15Guest:yeah and it's in my face all the time now with with my son you know you're just like all you see is this sweetness and innocence and natural joy and it's just like oh it's heavy you know well how old were you when you found your dad dead 18 19 no so that's before that

00:19:36Guest:Yeah, I don't... It's hard for me to pinpoint... Like, I'm jealous of people that have, like, a distinct, like, incident.

00:19:44Guest:That was the day that it all went bad.

00:19:47Guest:Yeah, my situation was so weird and complicated and, you know, basically I was just sort of...

00:19:54Guest:You know, kind of raised by wolves.

00:19:56Guest:Yeah.

00:19:57Guest:In terms of, like, everybody meant well, but they just weren't equipped for the situation.

00:20:01Guest:Sure.

00:20:02Guest:Yeah.

00:20:02Marc:No, I know that feeling.

00:20:04Marc:Like, I feel that, like, when I get to the edge of it, and I imagine that, you know, when you have a child and, you know, whatever time you spend alone with that child, you know, there's no risk.

00:20:17Marc:of vulnerability there for you either.

00:20:21Marc:I mean, the kid's wide open, but you can actually probably let go and connect in a way that's sort of transcendent.

00:20:28Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:20:29Guest:It really is.

00:20:29Guest:It's a great reminder and way to see it in your daily life.

00:20:34Guest:Like, yeah, you can just be open.

00:20:38Marc:My question is, what do we think is going to happen?

00:20:41Marc:What can't we handle if we're open?

00:20:46Guest:do you know what i mean right that's what i'm asking in the song i guess is yeah it's like what you know yeah yeah why are we like this is all bullshit you know but we're just like so so invested in it for so long but we're grown people i know and we're just like trying to protect our five-year-old selves yeah

00:21:03Marc:idiotic it is and then like but you know the other part that i've noticed i've talked about a little bit is that you know all the other parts of the five-year-old the the the sort of hypersensitivity and the anger it all operates at the same emotional tenor and it's just not appealing coming out of a 54 year old no it's not it's embarrassing we're fucking it is embarrassing man children right

00:21:25Guest:If there's any one sentence I could distill, if there's one message of this whole album, it would be, try to be more Mr. Rogers and less Donald Trump.

00:21:39Guest:Yeah.

00:21:40Guest:That's the thing.

00:21:41Guest:That's the five-year-old thing we all lost.

00:21:44Guest:Yeah.

00:21:45Guest:And at its worst, with all the defenses, it turns into Donald Trump.

00:21:49Marc:Right.

00:21:50Marc:Just complete no self-awareness, no shame, no empathy, very little conscience.

00:21:59Marc:Yeah.

00:21:59Marc:A completely self-serving America.

00:22:03Marc:Spoken like a true loser.

00:22:04Marc:Yeah.

00:22:05Marc:But, no, I agree with you.

00:22:06Marc:Well, I'm glad.

00:22:07Marc:Well, did you find... It seems to me that you lucked out with the kid because maybe after writing all these songs, then the kid comes, you're like, all right, well, this is the shortcut.

00:22:19Guest:Yeah, I mean, you know, if it was just an album like, you know, John Lennon's Double Fantasy and it's like, ooh, you know, I'm married and domestic bliss is the answer to everything, I think it's much more of a meaningful affair...

00:22:33Guest:This situation, because it's like, it really is about like rolling with the punches and life is, well, another John Lennon quote, like life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans.

00:22:44Guest:Oh yeah.

00:22:44Guest:Is that him?

00:22:45Guest:Yeah.

00:22:46Guest:That was on that album actually.

00:22:47Guest:So I just sort of went against my own theory there.

00:22:50Yeah.

00:22:50Guest:do you love john lennon no he was a hack of course i love john lennon yeah he was the greatest well you want to play a song sure are you prepared to play on that little guitar that that dinky guitar i better i'm going acoustic because of the last time i went i was here i went electric and the fans were outraged were they outraged it was like dylan at newport no nobody cares

00:23:15Guest:Keep in mind I'm quite rusty.

00:23:20Guest:I haven't done this for four years.

00:23:23Guest:You haven't played a guitar?

00:23:25Guest:Well, no.

00:23:25Guest:I mean, I did in the studio some, but I haven't performed.

00:23:30Guest:Well, also, this is the first live performance of any song from this album.

00:23:38Guest:Exciting.

00:23:39Guest:Is that exclusive enough for you, Marc Maron?

00:23:41Yeah.

00:23:43Guest:You want to do it?

00:23:44Guest:All right.

00:23:45Guest:This might take me a few tries.

00:23:46Guest:All right.

00:23:46Guest:I'll be on the mixer.

00:23:47Guest:I'm going to try to do this in one take, but I can't promise I'm going to make it.

00:23:51Guest:We can do more.

00:23:53Marc:I'm just going to ride the faders.

00:23:55Guest:You ride the faders.

00:23:57Guest:All right.

00:23:58Guest:Here we go.

00:24:07Guest:Today is the day that I chucked Everything I thought out the door

00:24:14Guest:Today is the day I ask myself, what the hell was I living for?

00:24:20Guest:That's right.

00:24:21Guest:Today is the day it starts right here.

00:24:25Guest:Don't got a thing to worry about now.

00:24:28Guest:Today is the day it starts right here.

00:24:35Guest:I thought about it, and it's kind of strange.

00:24:39Guest:Everything that I tried so hard.

00:24:42Guest:I thought about it, and I gotta say, I had it wrong right from the start.

00:24:49Guest:That's right.

00:24:50Guest:Today is the day it starts right here.

00:24:53Guest:Don't got a thing to worry about now.

00:24:57Guest:Today is the day it starts right here.

00:25:00Guest:Come on, man, don't you worry now.

00:25:03Guest:Everything that I thought that I believed Oh baby, was all so clear to me But now I know that I was wrong It's gone, it's gone, gone, gone It's alright now

00:25:25Guest:Today is the day that you see There's a man who will always change Who knows the only things to count on Life is quick, life is strange, that's right Today is the day that starts right I ain't got a thing to worry about now Today is the day that starts right Come on man, don't you worry now

00:25:54Guest:I don't know if you'll come along I just wanted to sing my song about change Today is the day

00:26:14Marc:nailed it was that all right yeah man all right fuck it one take one take one take one take every four years that's all i gotta do now the focus man oh it's intense you got it all right well congrats on the new record and it was great seeing you and congratulations on the child and uh i'm glad that uh even though it's difficult the the family situation is working

00:26:39Marc:So far, so good.

00:26:41Marc:All right, man.

00:26:42Marc:Thanks for having me.

00:26:43Guest:Yeah, talk to you again soon.

00:26:50Marc:That sounded good, huh?

00:26:53Marc:The old garage.

00:26:54Marc:That's what the old garage sounded like, playing music in it.

00:26:57Marc:Again, the new Eels album is called The Deconstruction.

00:27:00Marc:It's available now, okay?

00:27:02Marc:And if you want to hear my full talk with Mark from back in 2013, it's episode 371, and you can get that with subscriptions to Stitcher Premium or Howl.fm.

00:27:14Marc:Dig it.

00:27:16Marc:Now we're going to go, we're going to travel into the real blues.

00:27:21Marc:You know, Ben Harper has been playing some pretty sweet folk and blues and singer-songwriter stuff for many years.

00:27:30Marc:Did a beautiful record with his mother not long ago.

00:27:33Marc:And he did another record with Charlie Musselwhite.

00:27:35Marc:Charlie Musselwhite, one of the great blues harp players of his generation, that being the second generation, I would think you would call him, the ones that learned at the feet of the Sonny Boy Williamson's, of the Little Walters, of the James Cotton.

00:27:56Marc:He was there, man.

00:27:58Marc:He was in Chicago.

00:27:59Marc:And Ben and Charlie have done this beautiful record

00:28:02Marc:And I don't listen to a lot of new blues, but this is a beautiful record, beautifully produced.

00:28:09Marc:And you'll hear the song that they play after I talk to them.

00:28:13Marc:That's the title song of the album.

00:28:18Marc:No Mercy in This Land is the name of the record.

00:28:21Marc:You can get that now.

00:28:22Marc:But, you know, it was interesting when Ben, because Ben's got a lot of history himself.

00:28:28Marc:But Charlie still has all the old blues history.

00:28:30Marc:So there were stories coming out that clearly Ben hadn't heard.

00:28:33Marc:So me and Ben are just sitting listening to the old blues, you know, the blues veteran laying down some old stories from the old times.

00:28:42Marc:And that was great.

00:28:43Marc:That was great.

00:28:43Marc:It was a real treat.

00:28:45Marc:And again, this was the last conversation and music played.

00:28:49Marc:as far as a guest goes, in the old garage.

00:28:52Marc:So this is me talking to Ben Harper and Charlie Musselwhite.

00:29:03Marc:Let's break down a little bit.

00:29:05Marc:Sometimes with two cats, I'll probably single one of you out for a while, and then you come back and forth.

00:29:12Marc:I had Taj Mahal and Kebmo in here, and Keb didn't say anything.

00:29:16LAUGHTER

00:29:18Marc:And it wasn't his fault.

00:29:21Marc:There's a lot of listening and learning.

00:29:27Marc:That was the story there.

00:29:28Marc:Class is in session.

00:29:30Marc:For sure.

00:29:31Marc:Permanently.

00:29:31Marc:Yeah, always.

00:29:32Marc:And I knew this has got to be the way it's always going.

00:29:35Marc:But let's start with going all the way back, because I was thinking that Charlie...

00:29:40Marc:Because of the length of your career, now you're still alive, thank God, that it seems that you were able to not only see the development and the birth of rock and roll, but you also really sort of firsthand were able to see the electrifying of blues music, like you were there.

00:30:01Guest:Well, pretty much.

00:30:03Marc:Where did you start out?

00:30:04Marc:Where were you born?

00:30:05Guest:I was born in Mississippi, and I was raised up in Memphis.

00:30:08Guest:Memphis.

00:30:09Guest:Memphis was full of music back then.

00:30:11Guest:Yeah.

00:30:11Guest:It seemed the same today, but you mentioned seeing rock and roll beginning.

00:30:18Guest:It's interesting that Johnny and Dorsey Burnett lived across the street from me.

00:30:22Guest:No shit.

00:30:23Guest:And I used to hang out over at their house, and Jimmy Griffin, who had a band called Bread, lived next door, and all of us were just...

00:30:30Guest:kind of hang out and did you play together a while well i remember they let me go on the steel guitar oh yeah because you were a kid yeah i mean yeah they were i remember one day i was over there they had their eyes were real red and i went home to my mother and i said them boys across the street their eyes are all red my mom said well i guess they've been doing a little drinking yeah

00:30:53Guest:A little bit, a few days worth.

00:30:56Guest:Charlie, were you born home, hospital?

00:30:57Guest:I was born in a hospital in Kosciuszko, Mississippi.

00:31:01Marc:And how long did you live there?

00:31:03Guest:Three years.

00:31:04Guest:I continued to spend my summers there.

00:31:06Guest:Oh, really?

00:31:07Guest:It's just down the road from Memphis.

00:31:09Marc:But you still have a connection to it.

00:31:11Guest:I have a home in Clarksdale, Mississippi.

00:31:13Marc:Yeah?

00:31:13Guest:And Sonoma County.

00:31:15Marc:When did you start playing harmonica?

00:31:17Guest:Oh, well, it was a common toy.

00:31:21Guest:It seemed like everybody had a harmonica, and I just...

00:31:24Guest:kind of toot around on it like a little kid and just making up stuff.

00:31:29Guest:When I was about 13, I'd been listening to blues and going around Memphis looking for old blues records, and it occurred to me how much I loved the way the original Sonny Boy played harmonica.

00:31:42Marc:The first Sonny Boy.

00:31:43Guest:Yeah, and other people, too.

00:31:45Guest:And I got to thinking, well, you have a harmonica.

00:31:49Guest:It feels so good listening to them guys.

00:31:52Guest:Why don't you take it and teach yourself?

00:31:55Guest:So I went out in the woods and just...

00:31:57Guest:kept messing with it.

00:31:58Guest:Since I was already familiar with it a little bit, it kind of came pretty easy.

00:32:03Guest:Really?

00:32:03Marc:It seemed logical.

00:32:04Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:32:05Marc:So talking about this period, Ben, you grew up around this music?

00:32:09Marc:I did.

00:32:11Marc:But you were like a kid.

00:32:13Marc:I mean, what are you, a little younger than me?

00:32:15Marc:I'm 54, what are you?

00:32:16Marc:I'm 48.

00:32:17Marc:You're 48?

00:32:17Guest:Yeah.

00:32:18Guest:And you grew up here?

00:32:19Guest:I grew up in Claremont, California, which is in between here and Joshua Tree.

00:32:24Guest:Yeah.

00:32:25Marc:And what was the background?

00:32:27Marc:Because I did a little research, but it sounds like you've got to – it's interesting that both of you – because I just saw that documentary, Rumble.

00:32:36Marc:Did you see it?

00:32:37Marc:No.

00:32:37Marc:There's a documentary called Rumble on Amazon, and it's about the influence of American Indians in rock and roll.

00:32:46Marc:And they go back to Charlie Patton.

00:32:48Marc:Like they literally, Link Wray and Charlie Patton, they go back to Charlie Patton, whose grandmother was an Indian, and they had modern Indian singers, women who actually did traditional music, were able to track some of the melodies in Charlie Patton recordings that were actually indigenous people melodies.

00:33:10Marc:There you go.

00:33:11Marc:Do you have any sense of that?

00:33:12Marc:I mean, because you both have India and India, right?

00:33:15Yeah.

00:33:15Guest:That's what they tell me.

00:33:16Marc:Yeah, same.

00:33:17Guest:I got to do one of the genetic.

00:33:18Guest:I got to get to the bottom of that.

00:33:20Marc:So you don't know.

00:33:21Guest:It's rumored.

00:33:23Guest:But I have to do, you know, Ancestry.com.

00:33:25Guest:Yeah, me too.

00:33:25Marc:I know it's all going to come back Jew, but I'm curious which part of that.

00:33:30Marc:I'm there too.

00:33:31Marc:Are you too?

00:33:32Guest:I got like nine nationalities.

00:33:34Guest:I'm a real American mutt.

00:33:36Guest:But it does play into everything from your attitude, your personality, to your sense of humor, to your creative output, doesn't it?

00:33:42Guest:I mean, whether you wanted to or not, you just can't escape genetics.

00:33:46Marc:Well, it just sounds to me like that, you know, well, I mean, tell me about the, your dad and mom weren't together?

00:33:53Marc:No, not from a young age.

00:33:54Marc:By the time I was six, they were done.

00:33:55Marc:And your dad was, he was the one with the supposedly, like, had some Indian in him.

00:34:00Marc:Yeah.

00:34:00Marc:And your mom was Jewish.

00:34:01Marc:My mom's Jewish.

00:34:02Marc:My dad's black with some Indian back there.

00:34:04Marc:Yeah.

00:34:04Marc:And what was the environment?

00:34:07Marc:Because it seems like the musical environment was very defined.

00:34:11Marc:Your grandparents?

00:34:12Marc:It was rich.

00:34:13Marc:Yeah.

00:34:14Marc:And music from all over the world.

00:34:16Marc:Where was it?

00:34:17Marc:Tell me about the place.

00:34:18Guest:My family's at a music store called the Claremont Folk Music Center.

00:34:21Guest:It's also a certified museum.

00:34:23Marc:Yeah.

00:34:23Guest:And it's been here since 1958.

00:34:26Guest:We're celebrating 60 years this year of family-owned, five generations.

00:34:30Marc:Still there?

00:34:31Guest:Tuesday through Sunday.

00:34:32Guest:It's still there.

00:34:32Guest:It's still there, man.

00:34:33Guest:We should take a drive out there.

00:34:35Guest:Jay and I, Jay Albert, our mutual friend, we grew up neighbor to neighbor.

00:34:40Guest:Our one wall separated his house and mine.

00:34:42Guest:Oh, really?

00:34:43Guest:Yeah.

00:34:43Guest:And that's how you know John?

00:34:44Guest:That's how I know John.

00:34:45Marc:So tell me about this store, though, because it was since 1958.

00:34:49Marc:You have to see it to believe it, man.

00:34:50Marc:But like it doesn't sound like it sounds a little bit like the place on Bleecker Street, you know, like in New York where Dylan and all those people hung out.

00:34:58Guest:It's as if Bleecker and Haight Ashbery had Woody Guthrie and Joan Baez child.

00:35:05Guest:Yeah.

00:35:06Guest:Wow.

00:35:09Guest:So it was just filled with stuff.

00:35:10Guest:And Ravi Shankar was the godfather of both of them or something.

00:35:14Marc:You got some of that?

00:35:15Marc:You got some of that in there too?

00:35:16Guest:Oh man, I mean.

00:35:17Guest:So they deal with folk music from around the world?

00:35:19Guest:It was world.

00:35:21Guest:My family's music store is the reason America calls world music, world music.

00:35:26Guest:It didn't used to be world music.

00:35:27Guest:It was just music from around the world.

00:35:28Marc:Right, right.

00:35:29Marc:So they integrated it intellectually and commercially.

00:35:32Guest:They made it available.

00:35:34Guest:That's right.

00:35:34Guest:The thinking around it.

00:35:35Guest:That's right.

00:35:35Guest:And if you throw on top of that a literary passion and love by my grandparents and my mom.

00:35:42Guest:Yeah.

00:35:43Guest:That's the environment.

00:35:44Marc:So you got all of it.

00:35:45Marc:Yeah.

00:35:46Guest:You got literary like poetry and you got folk music.

00:35:50Guest:Yeah.

00:35:50Guest:And you get a youthful teenage hip hop rebellious kid in me.

00:35:55Guest:Yeah.

00:35:55Guest:Then mash it all together.

00:35:56Guest:No kidding.

00:35:57Marc:So like do they do live performances there and stuff?

00:36:00Marc:Yeah.

00:36:00Guest:We still have the best open mic within 100 miles, north, south, east, west in LA, last Sunday of every month.

00:36:05Guest:And this is in Pomona?

00:36:06Guest:Claremont.

00:36:07Guest:Claremont.

00:36:08Guest:Yep.

00:36:08Guest:One town due north.

00:36:09Marc:Well, who'd you see growing up?

00:36:11Marc:I mean, I imagine it sounds like a pilgrimage-worthy place.

00:36:16Guest:Did people come and... I looked up one time, my grandfather, he was in World War II, lost an ear.

00:36:23Guest:Didn't lose an ear, pardon me, not Van Gogh style, but lost his hearing in an ear.

00:36:27Guest:And the ear he could hear out of wasn't great.

00:36:30Guest:So when he'd tell you he was going to lean in with his good ear, it was still a struggle.

00:36:35Guest:But that said, he used to repair, restore instruments and was kind of the patriarch of the store.

00:36:44Guest:So I look up.

00:36:45Guest:I had come from the back.

00:36:46Guest:I used to do a lot of repair work in the back of the shop.

00:36:47Guest:So I look up.

00:36:49Guest:And there's Leonard Cohen with a pile of, a pile of stuff.

00:36:54Guest:He had, you know, and my grandfather was getting to the end and was just charging him full price.

00:36:59Guest:Right.

00:36:59Guest:And I look, I'm like, oh, I was like, Chris, he, my grandfather didn't, he didn't make, didn't play music, didn't listen to a lot of music, but loved instruments.

00:37:07Marc:Right, right.

00:37:08Guest:So he didn't, he didn't clap.

00:37:09Guest:It was Leonard.

00:37:10Guest:So I instantly said, excuse me, Grandpa, let me handle this.

00:37:14Guest:And I gave, like I piled all these instruments, because I think he was buying stuff for kids.

00:37:19Guest:It was like the holiday season.

00:37:21Guest:He was getting a lot of toys.

00:37:23Guest:Family members.

00:37:24Guest:I piled everything in the bag and like charged him $5.

00:37:26Guest:Oh, wow.

00:37:27Guest:I said, Mr. Cohen, thank you for a lifetime of incredible music.

00:37:30Guest:He says, oh, thank you for your generosity.

00:37:32Guest:How old were you?

00:37:33Marc:Oh, I was in my 20s.

00:37:33Marc:Oh, so you knew.

00:37:34Marc:You knew.

00:37:34Guest:Yeah, I knew right away.

00:37:35Guest:You knew the power.

00:37:36Guest:So they weren't musicians though, your grandparents?

00:37:38Guest:My grandmother, on the other hand, was an extraordinary musician.

00:37:41Guest:She played dulcimer, auto harp, guitar, banjo, sang like a bird, wrote songs.

00:37:46Guest:Old school, dulcimer.

00:37:48Guest:Yeah.

00:37:48Guest:Any dulcimer in your background, Charlie?

00:37:51Guest:Only except when I played with Cyndi Lauper.

00:37:53Guest:Oh, really?

00:37:54Guest:She said, nothing says blues like a mountain dulcimer word of me.

00:37:57Guest:Yeah.

00:37:58Guest:And I love it.

00:37:59Guest:They call it, ain't no notes on a dulcimer you just play.

00:38:02Guest:Yeah, is that true?

00:38:03Guest:That's the saying.

00:38:03Marc:It's such an odd instrument.

00:38:06Marc:All right, so, but did you, what was your experience with blues music at that time?

00:38:10Marc:Did you have any?

00:38:11Guest:Well, the store was centered around American Roots music.

00:38:16Mm-hmm.

00:38:16Guest:which is folk and blues.

00:38:19Guest:And other things, but to the point of the store and my family's passion was folk and blues.

00:38:23Guest:And blues was the first music that spoke directly to my spirit and soul.

00:38:27Guest:To where I just couldn't, I had to get in it.

00:38:29Guest:Do you remember which one?

00:38:30Guest:Mississippi John Hurt, Baby Right Away.

00:38:32Guest:Oh, yeah?

00:38:33Guest:Really?

00:38:34Guest:That's it.

00:38:34Guest:I said to my grandma, I said, who are these guys?

00:38:36Marc:Yeah.

00:38:36Guest:I was about 18.

00:38:37Guest:I said to my grandma, who are these guys playing?

00:38:40Guest:She said, it's just one guy.

00:38:41Guest:I said, no, there's two guitar players.

00:38:42Guest:Yeah.

00:38:43Guest:Or it's got to be at least two guitar players.

00:38:45Guest:My grandmother said, no.

00:38:46Guest:No.

00:38:46Guest:It's just one guitar player.

00:38:48Guest:Because he's hitting those high strings.

00:38:49Guest:Double thumb and high string picking.

00:38:51Marc:And I instantly set out.

00:38:53Marc:I think he's Taj's guy too, right?

00:38:56Marc:That's right.

00:38:56Marc:Yeah.

00:38:57Marc:Yeah.

00:38:57Marc:I had Taj in here going, taking, he took me all the way back to Senegal.

00:39:00Marc:Yeah.

00:39:01Marc:He picked up that old K guitar to show me where Skip James came from.

00:39:05Marc:Yeah.

00:39:05Marc:And all of a sudden he's back in Africa doing those, those sad notes that, that, that timing that you can sort of hear through Skip.

00:39:13Marc:Like I, and I was, he did it for like 45 seconds and I was like, just keep doing that.

00:39:18Marc:Can we do, could you do that?

00:39:19Marc:Yeah.

00:39:19Guest:He knows that shit.

00:39:21Guest:From Senegal to the Silk Road in China.

00:39:23Guest:Yeah.

00:39:24Guest:Trip, right?

00:39:25Guest:Yeah.

00:39:26Marc:He can lay that out for you.

00:39:28Marc:So the blues spoke to you, but ultimately, I guess like your early records, there's definitely a blues vibe on it.

00:39:35Marc:Sure.

00:39:35Marc:Yeah, definitely.

00:39:36Marc:I bent it around.

00:39:36Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:39:38Guest:Yeah.

00:39:38Guest:I've stretched it as far as I could by the time I've come back to it in full form.

00:39:42Marc:Yeah.

00:39:43Marc:So, Charlie, so you're down there.

00:39:46Marc:You're learning how to play harp.

00:39:47Marc:You're in Memphis.

00:39:50Marc:There's a lot going on.

00:39:51Marc:You know the Burnett guys.

00:39:53Marc:How old were you when you started playing with people?

00:39:56Guest:Oh, well, probably around 16 or 17 or something.

00:40:01Guest:Yeah.

00:40:02Guest:I first was real fascinated with the street singers that would see downtown in Memphis and on Beale Street.

00:40:10Guest:But I was too shy to talk to them.

00:40:12Guest:But I would follow them around, listen to them, watch them.

00:40:15Guest:And in other parts of town, too, there were some street singers.

00:40:18Guest:Anyhow, later on, I got to know Furry Lewis and Will Shade and Gus Cannon and Memphis Willie B and Earl Bell and all these guys that played.

00:40:29Guest:And they were really welcoming to me.

00:40:33Guest:They were flattered that I would seek them out to hear them.

00:40:37Guest:because they liked their music.

00:40:39Guest:They believed in it.

00:40:40Guest:Here's a young kid that likes it too.

00:40:42Guest:All right.

00:40:43Guest:So they were glad to have me come around and learn from them.

00:40:49Guest:But I didn't know I was preparing myself for a career.

00:40:52Guest:I would have paid a lot more attention.

00:40:54Guest:I was just having fun.

00:40:55Guest:I was just a kid.

00:40:56Guest:I wasn't thinking about this is something I was going to do.

00:40:59Guest:And you would play with them?

00:41:00Guest:Yeah, we would just sit around in their homes and

00:41:03Guest:Passive jug around.

00:41:05Guest:Yeah.

00:41:05Guest:And just have these spontaneous jam sessions.

00:41:08Marc:Oh, that's amazing.

00:41:09Marc:Yeah.

00:41:10Marc:I wonder, I guess that happens still.

00:41:12Marc:It's just so interesting to me to sort of be a witness of the source of this stuff, the evolution of the music.

00:41:20Marc:Because, I mean, you and I came to it later, you know, listening to it.

00:41:24Marc:Yeah.

00:41:24Marc:Right?

00:41:24Marc:But you saw, like, you know, like, I don't know when...

00:41:28Guest:the the you know when like wolf and muddy and those guys ended up in chicago but it couldn't have been much before you right oh they were maybe 10 years or something ahead of me yeah and but these guys i knew in memphis were old timers compared right sure muddy and and wolf they're like folk blues right yeah well later on when i knew big joe williams i'd walk into pepper's lounge and man muddy would act like a little kid like it was his hero when mud when big joe had just been a

00:41:58Guest:Single guy playing a guitar going down the road, as they used to put it, with his hat on backwards.

00:42:05Marc:So when did you start seeing yourself as a professional blues man, making the gigs, making the money?

00:42:13Guest:I'm still working on that.

00:42:15Guest:But when did you start playing professionally?

00:42:19Guest:It's hard to say.

00:42:21Guest:I don't remember the first time I got paid.

00:42:23Guest:I like to think that when my first album came out, that gave me a career and put me on the road.

00:42:29Marc:Yeah, that was it.

00:42:30Guest:That was a big turning point.

00:42:32Guest:Another turning point was...

00:42:34Guest:when muddy had me come sit in with him and then that resulted in me getting gigs around chicago so when you moved to chicago was in the 60s 62 and you started playing like so everything was electric up there right not everything like like i mentioned big joe williams yeah he would play through an app or he'd just play solo he was like a

00:42:54Guest:folk blues guitar player from from he wrote baby please don't go and it was yeah yeah yeah and and so what were where were people playing mostly bars yeah and also i mean the university of chicago would have a folk festival oh yeah and uh you would hear they would hire somebody like big joe or

00:43:14Guest:the Stanley Brothers and mix it all up, Barbara Dane and stuff like that.

00:43:19Guest:So either in coffee houses where they had folk music and occasionally a blues folk player or in the

00:43:27Guest:the blues clubs that I would go to that most people that didn't live in the neighborhood wouldn't dare go to.

00:43:33Marc:Mostly black clubs?

00:43:34Guest:Yeah.

00:43:34Marc:Yeah.

00:43:35Guest:Or the festivals.

00:43:36Guest:Yeah.

00:43:37Guest:That was it as far as I knew.

00:43:38Marc:Yeah.

00:43:39Marc:So, like, and so the first record, that didn't come until, what, 67.

00:43:44Marc:So you're hanging around.

00:43:46Marc:Who else is around?

00:43:47Marc:Like, is Howlin' Wolf's there?

00:43:52Marc:Yeah.

00:43:53Marc:And Butterfield's around?

00:43:55Guest:Yeah, everybody's...

00:43:56Guest:Only guy I didn't get to see, and he was there, but he died before I saw him, was Elmore James.

00:44:01Guest:Oh, man.

00:44:03Guest:Yeah.

00:44:03Guest:And then I found out later he was staying just around the corner from me with Homesick James.

00:44:08Guest:Oh, really?

00:44:08Guest:But Homesick, he liked all the attention on himself, so he never told me that, hey, come by and meet Elmore.

00:44:17Marc:And how much time did you get to spend with people like Muddy and Wolf and stuff?

00:44:22Guest:Oh, lots and lots.

00:44:23Guest:I mean, I just, you know, those clubs were,

00:44:26Guest:real affordable to get into, 50 cents or a buck or something at the most.

00:44:32Guest:And a lot of them were just free, just went in.

00:44:35Guest:So all those years I was in Chicago, it was, I mean, you think, well, who would I want to hear tonight?

00:44:42Guest:Little Walter?

00:44:43Guest:Sonny Boy?

00:44:45Guest:I don't know.

00:44:46Guest:Muddy?

00:44:46Guest:I saw Muddy last night.

00:44:47Guest:Wolf?

00:44:48Guest:I mean, Chicago was loaded with the blues back then.

00:44:52Guest:isn't that crazy man i know it's all gone now it's pretty much hubert sumlin yeah hubert i'd see hubert all the time with wolf and he'd hold his guitar like straight up and down yeah and just be rocking with it yeah his hand is be flying up and down yeah he'd be looking at like what am i doing how do i do it how do i do this and and rocking and playing oh

00:45:15Guest:And then later on, he was more sedate.

00:45:17Guest:Yeah.

00:45:18Guest:Man, when he was young, he was ferocious.

00:45:21Marc:He's got a very crazy, unique sound, that guy.

00:45:24Guest:I couldn't believe it.

00:45:25Guest:I mean, the audience would just be pinned to the wall with this sound coming off the stage.

00:45:33Marc:Okay, so let's talk about the harp players.

00:45:36Marc:Because you're probably about the same age as Butterfield, right?

00:45:40Guest:More or less.

00:45:42Guest:One of us is like a year older than the other one.

00:45:44Guest:I don't remember.

00:45:45Marc:Well, yeah.

00:45:47Marc:But at that time, it was Little Walter.

00:45:49Marc:The old guard was what?

00:45:50Marc:Little Walter, James Cotton.

00:45:52Guest:Sonny Boy.

00:45:53Marc:Sonny Boy.

00:45:53Guest:And Good Rockin' Charles and Big Walter Horton.

00:45:57Guest:A lot of...

00:45:58Marc:obscure harmonica players that people wouldn't recognize and like the what made because like i guess little walter is the first guy to really have like a harmonica hit right far as i know uh juke yeah a huge hit yeah yeah and what was his style like what do you like how do you how do you define someone when he got to chicago he was playing like the first sunny boy real country yeah and that was his big influence

00:46:23Guest:Then in Chicago, he got exposed to a lot of horn players, and he started listening to them, and, hmm, I can play that, and his phrasing started changing and becoming more urban.

00:46:34Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:46:35Guest:Or even jazzy.

00:46:37Guest:He's phrasing like a horn player instead of a guy out in the country.

00:46:41Marc:That's funny how those instruments cross-pollinate, because even with Chuck Berry's riff, what's his name, Johnny Johnson, that's a piano riff, right?

00:46:51Guest:I remember seeing Chuck in a club going to see little Walter.

00:46:54Guest:Oh, really?

00:46:55Guest:He was at the bar next to me.

00:46:57Guest:Man, that guy really looks like he couldn't be.

00:46:59Guest:What would he be doing in here?

00:47:01Guest:And then little Walter says, I got a friend, Chuck Berry.

00:47:03Guest:And Chuck Berry goes up and just plays some stone killer blues.

00:47:08Guest:I bet.

00:47:08Guest:Not no rollover Beethoven.

00:47:10Marc:oh really yeah i give it he could do it like that's all those t-bone walker licks they're all of them all the licks are t-bone walker real sophisticated right yeah but but you can also go straight back to robert johnson with a lot of a lot of those licks too you can't early kind of delta yeah you gotta swell them down a little bit yeah and figure it out did you do how many robert johnson songs have you recorded

00:47:34Guest:I probably a half dozen.

00:47:38Guest:Yeah.

00:47:38Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:47:39Guest:Maybe four to six.

00:47:40Marc:Yeah.

00:47:41Marc:Yeah.

00:47:41Marc:And what's your experience in sort of going down that well?

00:47:46Marc:Well, like, you know, how do you handle it?

00:47:48Guest:They're so complicated.

00:47:49Guest:Right.

00:47:49Guest:But I like to pick them apart and come as close to the original as I can.

00:47:53Guest:Yeah.

00:47:54Guest:I used to be a little bit lazier, but nowadays I really like to get them down.

00:47:58Guest:Reverse engineer.

00:47:59Guest:Exactly.

00:47:59Guest:There's a great local player named Fran Bannick.

00:48:02Guest:Yeah.

00:48:02Guest:And he is a master at it.

00:48:04Guest:I mean, you can sit in front of Fran and learn Robert Johnson.

00:48:07Guest:He's a great local player.

00:48:08Guest:Used to teach at McCabe's.

00:48:09Guest:Great player.

00:48:10Guest:Yeah.

00:48:10Guest:I used to sit with him and watch him do it.

00:48:12Marc:Really?

00:48:12Marc:So you've gotten more proficient as time went on with that slide?

00:48:16Guest:Yeah, like come on in my kitchen and stuff like that, just with getting that down.

00:48:20Guest:Robert's a great one to pick apart and go note for note until you got it.

00:48:23Guest:Because I talked to John Hammond in here not long ago.

00:48:27Marc:Charlie knows John.

00:48:28Guest:Yeah.

00:48:28Marc:I love John.

00:48:29Guest:Yeah, he's a...

00:48:30Guest:Great guy.

00:48:31Marc:He's a really good guy.

00:48:32Guest:Yeah.

00:48:33Guest:And his dad, too.

00:48:34Marc:You did?

00:48:34Marc:Yeah.

00:48:35Marc:Whoa.

00:48:36Marc:But it was interesting to me, talking about owning the blues and going deep with them and making them vital, was I saw him at this weird, it was like I was visiting my brother in Tucson, and the Tucson Blues Society or something had him out.

00:48:51Marc:And it was just by coincidence.

00:48:52Marc:And there was like 40 people in the room, and he was there with that National Steel, that Dobro or whatever it is.

00:48:57Marc:And he did Hellhounds.

00:48:59Marc:And I was like, I couldn't even breathe.

00:49:01Marc:Same here.

00:49:01Marc:I saw John do that at McCaves.

00:49:02Guest:You did?

00:49:03Guest:Yeah.

00:49:04Guest:I get chills just talking about it.

00:49:06Guest:Yeah, no.

00:49:06Guest:John is scary.

00:49:07Guest:John's scary, man.

00:49:09Marc:Where does that come from?

00:49:10Marc:Because he stops playing.

00:49:12Marc:He's like, hey, how you doing?

00:49:13Marc:Nice.

00:49:14Marc:He's like, where's the guy that just played that?

00:49:16Guest:But I say that about a lot.

00:49:17Guest:Like, you'll hear Adele.

00:49:18Marc:Yeah.

00:49:19Guest:You'll hear her in between songs.

00:49:20Guest:Yeah.

00:49:20Guest:Yeah, you don't know.

00:49:21Guest:It sounds like a librarian.

00:49:22Guest:And then she just digs into the song and pins you to the wall.

00:49:26Guest:Taps in.

00:49:27Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:49:28Guest:None of us are who we talk.

00:49:29Guest:We are definitely who we sing.

00:49:31Marc:I guess so.

00:49:31Marc:Something changes.

00:49:32Marc:Yeah, some shift.

00:49:33Marc:Yeah, the whole being shift.

00:49:36Marc:It's weird because it happens with music, happens with sex.

00:49:39Marc:You kind of go out and then you land.

00:49:41Marc:You come back and you're like, okay, I'm back.

00:49:43Marc:But I was just somewhere else.

00:49:45Marc:Right?

00:49:45Marc:Yeah.

00:49:47Marc:Well, in talking about that, like, I don't know, I guess it's just natural, but when you talk about Robert Johnson, as a grown person, as somebody you go back to, because I found that with Hendrix, too, that, you know, I keep, you know, anytime I listen to Hendrix, it's sort of like, was that always there?

00:50:02Marc:Like, you know, you're able to experience the music differently as you get older.

00:50:07Guest:Isn't it true?

00:50:07Guest:It resonates so differently when the older you get.

00:50:11Guest:I recognize that.

00:50:12Guest:Yeah.

00:50:12Marc:Is that crazy?

00:50:12Marc:I don't know what it is.

00:50:13Marc:Genius is what it is.

00:50:14Marc:It's the testament of the work of genius.

00:50:17Marc:Because as you get more sophisticated or more emotional or more fragile, different things resonate.

00:50:24Marc:But I'm surprised at how you could really feel Jimmy in almost every note.

00:50:30Marc:There's a rawness to it that whatever his virtuosity is, at the core of it is completely impulsive and full of feeling.

00:50:38Marc:And do you find that when you go, like, have you had experiences when you dig into, like, Robert Johnson or any... Yeah, Robert and Jimmy are as close as you can come in the... Robert and Jimmy, and by the way, Charlie Musselwhite... Yes, sir.

00:50:49Guest:...is as close as you can come to hearing... It's as close as you can come to the source.

00:50:55Guest:Yeah.

00:50:56Guest:Yeah.

00:50:56Guest:Without... I mean, like, when Charlie gets done playing a solo... Right.

00:51:00Guest:It's like he gets... It's not that he stopped playing the solo.

00:51:03Guest:It's that they kicked him out because he was getting too close...

00:51:05Guest:to exposing the sixth sense.

00:51:09Guest:Getting too close.

00:51:10Guest:Yeah.

00:51:11Guest:You can't stay there too long.

00:51:13Guest:Yeah.

00:51:13Guest:Well, we'll know something we're not supposed to know.

00:51:16Guest:Or not.

00:51:17Guest:Yeah.

00:51:18Guest:And he puts you right there.

00:51:19Guest:And Jimmy and Robert, they put you as close as you can get to the source and survive it.

00:51:26Guest:Because they're reaching for something too hot to touch and too bright to see.

00:51:30Guest:Isn't that something?

00:51:31Guest:I remember Robert Johnson's story that what y'all were saying reminded me about,

00:51:35Guest:kind of the mystery and the strangeness of Robert Johnson and I think it was Robert Johnny Shines that told me this because they used to travel together and play together and one day they were in some little town in the south and there was a preacher on a corner and he had a

00:51:53Guest:crowd around him.

00:51:55Guest:He was preaching, and Robert walks right up next to him and starts playing like the dirtiest blues he could think of and chased everybody away.

00:52:04Guest:And the preacher said, young man, I don't know why you did what you did, but you're going to have bad luck.

00:52:11Guest:And as they're walking away, Johnny says, man, why did you do that?

00:52:14Guest:Oh, and he was blind, the preacher.

00:52:16Guest:Why did you do that?

00:52:17Guest:He was just a blind preacher trying to make a buck, and he chased everybody away.

00:52:22Guest:And Johnson's reply was, ah!

00:52:26Guest:that was it that was it the power he unleashed the power i mean what was that about you just heard a story that was one person removed yeah from the real thing from robert johnson yeah yeah that's what's up well that was his i guess that was his attitude why did he do that i don't know you know hello satan it's time to go you were knocking on my door i mean

00:52:45Guest:Maybe there's more to it than we really know.

00:52:48Marc:Sure, man.

00:52:49Marc:I believe it.

00:52:50Marc:Maybe that was the deal he made.

00:52:51Marc:Maybe he did sell his soul.

00:52:53Marc:Maybe.

00:52:54Marc:It's a great story, and nobody really knows, I guess.

00:52:58Marc:It's at least as good as Jesus.

00:53:00Marc:Yeah, for sure.

00:53:01Marc:Absolutely.

00:53:03Marc:Absolutely.

00:53:04Marc:Well, that was that was the thing about that was what I wanted to get at was I think that in this record and also the last record you guys did, like I think you guys, you know, you tap into it.

00:53:13Marc:You know, there's something, you know, the songs are beautiful.

00:53:15Marc:But, you know, I think that you make it you make it, you know, vital again.

00:53:20Marc:You know, that the music.

00:53:21Marc:Thank you.

00:53:21Marc:In order to make the blues vital for a younger generation, you need a special kind of kid.

00:53:28Marc:How do you get those kids in there?

00:53:30Marc:Do you ever think about that?

00:53:33Guest:I think about it on the opposite side of it when I look out in the crowd and see these kids seeing Charlie.

00:53:40Guest:Man, we played Irving Plaza, right?

00:53:42Guest:It was kind of our coming out.

00:53:44Guest:It was our first gig that we played together.

00:53:46Guest:When was this?

00:53:47Guest:This must have been 2013, Charlie?

00:53:52Guest:Around the time Get Up came out.

00:53:54Guest:For Get Up, yeah.

00:53:55Guest:For Get Up, for our first record.

00:53:57Guest:And we played Irving Plaza.

00:53:59Guest:We didn't want to overshoot.

00:54:00Guest:I didn't want to oversell it or grandstand with it.

00:54:03Guest:We booked Irving and didn't even know if that would... Just figured, okay, let's go.

00:54:09Guest:Sold tight to the rafters.

00:54:12Guest:After Charlie's solo, his first solo, people...

00:54:17Guest:I got witnesses to this, so help me God, with witnesses.

00:54:22Guest:It was at least a seven and a half minute ovation after the first song.

00:54:27Guest:Maybe it was the first song, maybe it was getting close to the end, but after one of Charlie's solos, song ended, and people were clapping at heated rapture for Charlie.

00:54:42Guest:And they wouldn't stop, and I would come to the mic, and they'd just like, no, we're not ready to stop.

00:54:47Guest:kept going, kept going.

00:54:49Guest:Finally, after five, six, seven minutes, stepped in and we just didn't even know what to do.

00:54:57Guest:And it was all for, because they were those kids seeing Charlie for the first time.

00:55:02Guest:And it was... They'd never seen anything.

00:55:04Guest:The real shit.

00:55:06Guest:They got hit.

00:55:07Guest:No expletives necessary.

00:55:08Guest:Hit.

00:55:09Guest:And...

00:55:10Guest:It was as if they were seeing something that, I can't explain it, man.

00:55:15Guest:It was supernatural, though.

00:55:17Guest:It was crazy.

00:55:17Guest:I believe it.

00:55:18Guest:I saw those faces going, okay.

00:55:19Guest:Yeah, like, where did that come from?

00:55:22Guest:Authentic stuff.

00:55:23Guest:I've never felt it.

00:55:24Guest:I don't know what this is.

00:55:25Guest:What am I feeling?

00:55:25Guest:What the hell am I seeing?

00:55:26Guest:Well, that's great, man.

00:55:28Guest:Yeah, it was hip.

00:55:29Guest:Am I exaggerating?

00:55:30No.

00:55:30Guest:I always felt like, properly exposed, anybody would love blues.

00:55:35Guest:Sure.

00:55:35Guest:I mean, and all those people, they might have heard or had some preconceived idea of blues, but when they got hit with it, it was like, good God, where's this been?

00:55:48Guest:I never heard anything like that.

00:55:49Guest:I thought blues was supposed to make you sad.

00:55:52Guest:I'm feeling like jumping up and down and being happy.

00:55:55Guest:Yeah.

00:55:56Guest:Which the blues will do.

00:55:58Marc:And who do you think, like,

00:56:00Marc:In that genre, it's weird because you hear a lot about the popularization of the blues by the British guys who took to it first before it really got kind of turned out here.

00:56:14Marc:But who do you think were the guys that, when you saw it, really started to just rock out the blues?

00:56:20Marc:Was it just Muddy and Wolfe and those guys?

00:56:22Yeah.

00:56:22Guest:Well, I heard a lot of stories about kids would say, yeah, I went away to college and my roommate had a Rolling Stones album and we noticed some of the tunes were by some guy named Muddy Waters.

00:56:33Guest:Right.

00:56:34Guest:And then we discovered Muddy Waters.

00:56:35Guest:And I heard variations of that story over and over.

00:56:39Guest:I still hear that story.

00:56:40Guest:Yeah.

00:56:41Guest:And I guess it's pretty common.

00:56:43Guest:So there's a lot of credit to be given to those English groups that were doing American blues.

00:56:48Guest:Manfred Mann was another one.

00:56:49Guest:Oh, really?

00:56:50Guest:Yeah.

00:56:50Guest:Brought attention to it?

00:56:51Guest:Paul Jones is the harp player in that band.

00:56:53Guest:And they were doing straight ahead blues.

00:56:55Marc:And they were good.

00:56:56Marc:Yeah.

00:56:57Marc:So now both of you guys have done like Grammy Award winning records with the Blind Boys Alabama.

00:57:03Marc:yeah i was on one then you were on one yeah yeah maybe made a full length with them yeah that was you and them yeah and you played along with them or yeah you just on a whole record i toured with i sang with them too what's the history of those guys how'd you guys come in contact get in touch with those guys

00:57:22Guest:Kevin Morrow was their manager, and he was my manager.

00:57:25Marc:Oh, that helps, yeah.

00:57:28Guest:But I'd been a fan of theirs for a long time.

00:57:30Guest:I had 45s and albums of theirs and love a lot of their tunes, still listen to them.

00:57:37Marc:And they've been around a long time.

00:57:38Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:57:39Marc:And how many of the originals are still there?

00:57:43Guest:I don't know.

00:57:44Guest:I think Clarence is around.

00:57:45Guest:He retired.

00:57:46Guest:occasionally you will come out to appear with them yeah but uh are they carters too when i worked with them there was i was so motivated because i grew up with their music yeah my family in our in our music they were on constant rotation as was charlie yeah and so growing up with their music having they had covered a song of mine called i shall not walk alone yeah and i caught wind of that

00:58:09Guest:which album is that one from that one is from i think maybe uh spirit of the century uh-huh uh-huh yeah and yeah i should know this song i shouldn't that's okay but it's it's and they covered it and it blew you away it was on spirit of the century matter of fact yeah floored me and made the connection we we did a show together yeah we i would they i opened up for them them for me something like that and then the connection was made

00:58:33Guest:They came to me to produce a record.

00:58:36Guest:And I wrote and produced a record with and for them.

00:58:39Guest:And it did what it was supposed to do.

00:58:41Guest:Yeah.

00:58:42Guest:Got out there.

00:58:43Marc:Yeah.

00:58:45Marc:It's like that whole strand of American music, gospel music and stuff.

00:58:49Marc:I don't know enough about it.

00:58:51Marc:But it seems to be a very unique thing.

00:58:53Marc:And the drive of it seems to be fairly essential unto itself.

00:58:58Guest:It started the five blind boys of Alabama.

00:59:00Guest:That was their original name.

00:59:01Guest:Yeah.

00:59:02Guest:And there were the blind boys in Mississippi.

00:59:04Guest:It was a whole, man, once it was proven that you could actually get out from under like weaving baskets or making brooms at a blind school or academy.

00:59:14Guest:Oh, is that how it happened?

00:59:15Guest:Yeah, that's how they got up out of there.

00:59:17Guest:Uh-huh.

00:59:18Guest:They were singing while they were all at Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

00:59:23Guest:Tuscaloosa, the school for the blind.

00:59:25Guest:Uh-huh.

00:59:26Guest:And they were there making brooms, production line brooms.

00:59:28Guest:And people were telling them, you'll never go anywhere else but here, so get comfortable in that seat.

00:59:33Guest:And on their breaks, they would sing.

00:59:35Guest:And they sang their way out of making brooms to the world stage, man.

00:59:39Guest:It'll motivate you.

00:59:40Guest:Yeah.

00:59:40Guest:And by the time we connected, there were still three original members of the five.

00:59:49Guest:George Scott.

00:59:50Guest:Yeah, who was the first guitar player.

00:59:52Guest:He used to play guitar for them, right?

00:59:53Guest:He was their first guitar player.

00:59:55Guest:Yeah.

00:59:56Guest:And Jimmy Carter and Clarence Fountain.

00:59:59Guest:Yeah.

00:59:59Guest:And to be able to... The three of them as the core nucleus of the blind boys.

01:00:03Guest:Man, when they would open their mouths to sing, man, you just...

01:00:08Guest:You just have to sit and wait for the hair to rest.

01:00:11Marc:Yeah, I remember.

01:00:12Marc:Back onto your skin.

01:00:13Marc:Man, I listened to the hell out of that.

01:00:14Marc:And now you almost made me find Jesus.

01:00:16Guest:They were on a show with all these.

01:00:18Guest:And that's no small feat.

01:00:19Guest:No.

01:00:20Guest:They did a show where it was all gospel groups.

01:00:23Guest:Yeah.

01:00:23Guest:And most of them were really young.

01:00:25Guest:I mean, they've been around a long time.

01:00:28Guest:Yeah.

01:00:28Guest:And these groups, they're so full of energy.

01:00:31Guest:And they're jumping around.

01:00:32Guest:They got choreography.

01:00:34Guest:And you're sitting there thinking, how are the blind boys going to...

01:00:37Guest:Right.

01:00:39Guest:And finally it comes time for the blind boys, they walk up and Clarence says, I didn't come here to find Jesus today.

01:00:48Guest:And people are like, what?

01:00:49Guest:It's like blasphemy.

01:00:51Guest:Yeah.

01:00:51Guest:Because I brought him with me.

01:00:53Guest:And the whole place goes nuts.

01:00:55Guest:And from that point on, Clarence had him in the palm of his hand.

01:01:00Yeah.

01:01:00Marc:I had a collection of Sam Cooke.

01:01:06Marc:Who was he with?

01:01:06Marc:The Soulsters?

01:01:07Marc:Yes.

01:01:08Guest:That stuff, man.

01:01:10Marc:Right?

01:01:12Marc:Because when I look at a Sam Cooke thing, then I'm like, I got to get these Soulsters records.

01:01:15Marc:And it's like...

01:01:16Marc:That's special music.

01:01:18Marc:Yeah.

01:01:19Guest:Oh, man.

01:01:19Marc:And just to see how his voice, even within that, because I read some of the book about Sam, how his voice sort of stood out somehow in a way that you can't even describe.

01:01:31Marc:No one's ever sounded like that before, right?

01:01:33Marc:No.

01:01:33Marc:It's nuts.

01:01:35Marc:But you do, it seems like you do, you've done several records with other people.

01:01:39Marc:You like working with other people.

01:01:41Marc:I do.

01:01:41Marc:I love collaborating.

01:01:42Marc:And the record you did with your mother was amazing.

01:01:45Marc:Thank you.

01:01:45Marc:That's an amazing record.

01:01:47Marc:Thank you.

01:01:48Marc:Like I get choked up thinking about getting along with your mother that well.

01:01:51Guest:Yeah, it was.

01:01:52Guest:It was fun.

01:01:54Guest:She had a great time.

01:01:55Guest:I had a great time.

01:01:56Guest:And she brought half the songs I brought half.

01:01:58Guest:We'd been talking about it because my mom, she stopped making music to raise three boys.

01:02:02Guest:Yeah.

01:02:03Guest:So to be able to bring that back into her life at that level was just a true, true privilege.

01:02:07Marc:How old was she when you did it?

01:02:08Marc:How old is she now?

01:02:09Marc:Or does she not like you talking about that?

01:02:11Marc:Man, she'll kick my butt.

01:02:12Marc:You know better than that.

01:02:13Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:14Marc:But I mean, that song, that album.

01:02:16Marc:At least 20 years older than me.

01:02:18Marc:Of course.

01:02:18Marc:There you go.

01:02:19Marc:Childhood home.

01:02:20Marc:But like what I what what was amazing about hearing her and the songs that you chose is that some of that stuff is real folk stuff.

01:02:27Marc:Yeah, for sure.

01:02:28Marc:Like and I can hear it in both of your, you know, in the in the melodies and the harmony.

01:02:34Marc:Yeah.

01:02:35Marc:Right.

01:02:35Marc:It's right there.

01:02:36Marc:So it was like it really was like being going home in a way.

01:02:40Marc:Huh?

01:02:40Marc:For sure.

01:02:41Marc:Yeah.

01:02:41Marc:And wait, now you brought six and she brought six.

01:02:44Guest:You mean you wrote them?

01:02:45Guest:Are they all?

01:02:46Guest:Yeah.

01:02:47Guest:She brought her strongest collection.

01:02:49Guest:I brought mine that would suit the material.

01:02:51Guest:Of stuff that you wrote.

01:02:52Guest:Of stuff that we wrote.

01:02:52Guest:All original material.

01:02:54Guest:And the trick you find real quick.

01:02:56Guest:Yeah.

01:02:56Guest:Because I had another six.

01:02:58Guest:She had another six.

01:02:58Guest:We each came with about 10 songs.

01:03:00Guest:There's only so many types of songs you can duet with your mom and your son.

01:03:05Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:03:06Guest:Certain things just don't pan out.

01:03:08Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:03:09Marc:As good as a song might be.

01:03:10Marc:The subject matter is not right.

01:03:11Marc:Yeah.

01:03:11Guest:Yeah, I get it.

01:03:14Marc:Yeah.

01:03:15Marc:But she harmonized beautifully.

01:03:16Marc:Thanks.

01:03:17Marc:Did you guys sing together when you were a kid?

01:03:19Guest:Yeah.

01:03:20Guest:Coming up, when my mom would be rehearsing for her band so she could really get the part down, she'd teach me the harmony.

01:03:25Guest:I'd be a seven-year-old kid singing a harmony line to a Dolly Parton or an Emmylou Harris song.

01:03:30Marc:Oh, yeah?

01:03:30Guest:Yeah, taking the harmony line.

01:03:31Marc:And you got two other brothers?

01:03:33Guest:Two younger brothers.

01:03:34Guest:And are they in music?

01:03:35Guest:They both make music.

01:03:36Guest:They both love to make music.

01:03:37Guest:And that's their job?

01:03:38Guest:They're in the music biz?

01:03:40Guest:Not so much in the way that I am.

01:03:43Guest:Right.

01:03:43Guest:But one of them's wanting to make music, you know, and doing his thing.

01:03:46Guest:And yeah.

01:03:47Marc:now what what have you found because like i i assume that you know separately you guys have you know very different fan bases in a way now because you i mean you sort of made an impact i guess in the late 90s 2000 and you built a pretty good career for yourself being a very thoughtful songwriter because i know that i don't know what your relationship with with jack johnson was but you guys were friends at some point yeah jack used to come to shows and because you started him out

01:04:12Guest:He started opening up for me.

01:04:13Guest:I can't forgive you for that, but that's okay.

01:04:16Guest:No, man.

01:04:17Guest:Jack is the shit, man.

01:04:18Guest:Jack is a badass.

01:04:20Marc:All right.

01:04:20Guest:I'm not going to shit on Jack Johnson.

01:04:22Guest:No, you cannot.

01:04:23Marc:Please.

01:04:23Marc:Not in my presence.

01:04:24Marc:No.

01:04:25Marc:He's a sweet guy, sweet music.

01:04:26Marc:But what I'm saying is that it was a huge appeal, right?

01:04:29Marc:But it didn't necessarily resonate with me.

01:04:31Marc:And I think that like listening to your albums, which I have a few of that I've listened to, it was a different vibe, but I think it was a broad appeal, right?

01:04:39Marc:You got a pretty good following from that stuff.

01:04:41Marc:From your music, your solo stuff and some of the other stuff.

01:04:43Guest:Yeah, man.

01:04:44Guest:I mean, listen, it's made its way there.

01:04:46Guest:You know, I've known when I'm in the valley looking up and I've known when I'm at a peak looking down.

01:04:51Guest:Right.

01:04:51Guest:Yeah.

01:04:51Guest:But how many do you find of the people that have been with you for decades?

01:04:56Guest:Do you see them out there?

01:04:57Guest:I do.

01:04:57Guest:We have a front row crew.

01:04:59Guest:Yeah.

01:04:59Guest:My band is called the Innocent Criminals.

01:05:00Guest:Yeah.

01:05:01Guest:And there's a core crew where you start to recognize them and we call them front row Innocent Criminals.

01:05:06Guest:So they're F-R-I-C.

01:05:07Guest:We're B-H-I-C.

01:05:08Guest:They're F-R-I-C.

01:05:08Guest:Right.

01:05:09Guest:Yeah.

01:05:10Guest:And I've never.

01:05:11Guest:never wanted to be a WC Fields, I guess, not wanting to be a member of a club that would let me- Groucho, yeah.

01:05:17Guest:Groucho, excuse me.

01:05:18Marc:I think it's Groucho, yeah.

01:05:19Guest:I think you're probably right.

01:05:20Guest:And I've always subscribed to that.

01:05:22Guest:Yeah.

01:05:22Guest:I'm too nonconformist to start a fan club.

01:05:24Guest:Right.

01:05:25Guest:Or insult people with having one.

01:05:27Guest:But there's one that's kind of formed in a very unconventional way.

01:05:30Guest:Yeah.

01:05:30Guest:Just from being there.

01:05:31Guest:Yeah.

01:05:32Guest:they're like, we're with you, motherfucker.

01:05:34Guest:And I'm like, I'm with y'all, motherfuckers.

01:05:35Guest:And like, we're here.

01:05:36Guest:And so we've just, it's game on.

01:05:38Guest:And they're F-R-I-C, man.

01:05:40Marc:And do they, are they coming out for you too?

01:05:43Guest:For when you guys go out?

01:05:44Guest:Man, I could show you an email right now.

01:05:45Guest:What we've, what I've taken to doing.

01:05:47Guest:I don't have a formal fan club, but it's so informal.

01:05:50Guest:Yeah.

01:05:50Guest:that it's taken on a life of its own and that there's email connections and I'm emailing with and I'm connecting them with my tour manager so we have these soundcheck parties for FRIC they get to come to soundchecks they're fed if we have catering they have catering so get soundchecks they get food and they're the first ones led in the door oh that's sweet it's unorthodox and they've probably been with you for a decade if not two and what about you Charlie how are your fans holding up

01:06:20Marc:They're still showing up.

01:06:24Marc:We're still having fun.

01:06:26Marc:Do you know some of them?

01:06:27Marc:Do you know people that have been coming to see you for 50 years, 40 years?

01:06:30Guest:A lot of them I know just from email.

01:06:34Guest:I don't know even their faces.

01:06:36Guest:Oh, yeah, you don't see them.

01:06:37Guest:But they constantly, I was there last night, and I love that tune, and blah, blah, blah, and I'll see you next night.

01:06:43Guest:All this stuff.

01:06:43Guest:Yeah.

01:06:44Guest:So there's a lot of that kind of stuff that I get.

01:06:46Guest:When did you move to the Bay Area?

01:06:48Guest:67 in the fall to play at the Fillmore.

01:06:52Guest:That was my first gig.

01:06:53Guest:With your band?

01:06:54Guest:Yeah.

01:06:55Guest:And that was... And Butterfield and Cream.

01:06:57Marc:It was the last... Oh, my God.

01:06:59Guest:Yeah.

01:07:00Guest:That must have been crazy.

01:07:02Guest:Well, I'd never been out of... This is my first time to actually be on the road with this new album.

01:07:08Guest:Yeah.

01:07:09Guest:My first album, and I had no interest in going to California.

01:07:13Guest:I didn't even know anything about California.

01:07:15Guest:Yeah.

01:07:15Guest:I was having so much fun in Chicago, but I thought, okay, I'll go out there and play this place they call the Fillmore.

01:07:22Guest:And, man, I got to California in, I don't think, 10 minutes.

01:07:27Guest:Did you drive or fly?

01:07:29Guest:I flew out.

01:07:30Guest:And 10 minutes went by and I knew I wasn't going back to Chicago.

01:07:33Guest:Oh, really?

01:07:34Guest:This makes sense.

01:07:35Guest:People were nice and, ooh, look at those pretty girls.

01:07:38Guest:Yeah.

01:07:39Guest:And in the 60s, it must have been crazy.

01:07:41Guest:And the whole West Coast had these big, a lot of places to play that way unlike the little...

01:07:47Marc:joints i was playing in chicago yeah so this was a step up well i think yeah i think bill graham did an amazing thing right because like you know he you could do straight blues band and you could do a psychedelic band and you could have the soul singer on like the same bill yeah i thought it was pretty astounding it was great yeah and every everybody got along pretty good

01:08:08Marc:You mean like on a bill?

01:08:09Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:08:10Guest:Everybody was trading.

01:08:13Guest:It was just a big party.

01:08:14Guest:Yeah.

01:08:15Guest:Love and peace.

01:08:16Guest:I mean, getting high.

01:08:17Guest:I mean, it was great.

01:08:19Guest:Crazy small fact.

01:08:21Guest:We did the Music Cares event for Bruce Springsteen.

01:08:25Guest:And we did Atlantic City.

01:08:29Guest:Me, you, you, myself, and Natalie Maines.

01:08:31Guest:And Jason on guitar.

01:08:33Guest:Wasn't that in L.A.?

01:08:34Guest:It was in L.A.

01:08:35Guest:I'm just to say that Bruce came up to give his acceptance speech.

01:08:40Guest:And he was like, Charlie Musclewhite.

01:08:41Guest:I used to open for him in San Francisco.

01:08:44Guest:Yeah.

01:08:44Guest:Oh, that's right.

01:08:45Guest:He was out there for a couple of years.

01:08:47Guest:Yeah.

01:08:47Guest:I remember playing in a club called The Matrix and him and Santana opened for me there.

01:08:52Marc:But it wasn't the E Street Band.

01:08:53Marc:They had another name, right?

01:08:55Marc:It was a rock band, no?

01:08:56Marc:Or was it Bruce Springsteen?

01:08:58Marc:Oh, I don't remember.

01:08:58Marc:Oh, right.

01:08:59Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:09:00Marc:You remember him, though, right?

01:09:01Marc:As a kid?

01:09:02Marc:I wasn't a kid.

01:09:03Marc:He was, though.

01:09:04Guest:He was.

01:09:05Marc:Yeah.

01:09:06Marc:You knew Mike Bloomfield, too, huh?

01:09:07Guest:Real well.

01:09:08Guest:He lived a block away from me for a long time, and I was living in the back of a record store.

01:09:14Guest:He'd come over, oh, three, four times a week, and we'd just hang out.

01:09:18Guest:Which record store?

01:09:19Guest:It was called the Old Wells Record Shop on Wells Street in Old Town in Chicago.

01:09:24Guest:Didn't Big Joe live there, too?

01:09:26Guest:Yeah, and Big Joe Williams lived in the back, too.

01:09:28Guest:Really?

01:09:29Guest:Isn't that some shit?

01:09:30Guest:We were living in the basement of another record store.

01:09:35Guest:Which one, Delmark?

01:09:36Guest:Yeah, well, it was called the Jazz Record Mart on Grand Avenue at State.

01:09:41Guest:And Joe Heap, Joe didn't like Bob, I mean...

01:09:46Guest:Joe really hated Bob.

01:09:49Marc:What's his name, Bob Costler?

01:09:51Guest:Kester.

01:09:51Guest:Kester, yeah.

01:09:52Guest:Joe hit him in the head with the phone.

01:09:55Guest:Bob thought he had been on the phone too long.

01:09:58Guest:Anyhow, I got in a fight with Bob, and I remember...

01:10:01Guest:leaving the store and hearing Bob standing in the doorway hollering, I'll never pay you the money I owe you.

01:10:09Guest:So I moved over to this other record store, and Joe had been out of town.

01:10:13Guest:When he came back and found out what happened, he was real happy.

01:10:17Guest:He moved in with me.

01:10:19Guest:So we were both back there.

01:10:20Guest:Now, why was it an obvious go-to to move in?

01:10:23Guest:Most people would move into an apartment, right?

01:10:26Guest:Yeah, you'd think.

01:10:26Guest:Why another record store?

01:10:30Guest:Well, I knew the guy and hung out there a lot.

01:10:34Guest:He was a real character.

01:10:35Guest:At one time in the 40s or 50s or both, he had the largest black-owned...

01:10:40Guest:uh record store on the south side of chicago yeah and all these jazz guys hung out there and they all knew him and now they would come visit him at his little store in old town i met a lot of you know sonny stitt and uh jackie mclean and roy eldridge i mean guys like they would just stop in to see bill and hang out yeah uh and you listen to a lot of jazz oh yeah because there were all the clubs right around that little area yeah all these jazz clubs i could

01:11:08Guest:Since the doorman knew me, I could go in and see all these guys.

01:11:11Marc:What was the jazz scene at that point?

01:11:12Marc:Was it like hard bop or bebop or what was going on?

01:11:15Marc:What year?

01:11:15Guest:Well, you know, you had Roscoe Mitchell and the Chicago Art Ensemble.

01:11:19Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:11:19Guest:Malachi Favors and Jody Orio and Sonny Stitt.

01:11:23Guest:Jackie McLean would play.

01:11:26Guest:Speaking of that era, are we talking about like Lionel Hampton, Toots Tillman's big bands?

01:11:34Guest:Not big bands like that.

01:11:35Guest:More like trios or quartets.

01:11:39Guest:Did that have an influence on your playing?

01:11:42Guest:Well, probably.

01:11:43Guest:I mean, I was listening to how horn players phrased for ideas.

01:11:48Marc:Yeah.

01:11:48Guest:Just like little Walter did.

01:11:50Marc:Yeah.

01:11:50Marc:And you get them?

01:11:51Marc:You could hear them?

01:11:52Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:11:53Guest:Yeah.

01:11:54Guest:Yeah, it made sense to me.

01:11:55Guest:Yeah.

01:11:55Guest:It was just a natural step.

01:11:57Marc:Both read instruments.

01:11:58Guest:Yeah.

01:11:58Guest:And all good jazz players start out playing blues.

01:12:01Guest:If they come from the classical end of jazz, it's stiff and brittle.

01:12:08Guest:If you come from the blues, it's got that grease.

01:12:11Marc:Yeah, that's right.

01:12:13Marc:Now, the new record that I have here, or that one we're talking about now, No Mercy in This Land,

01:12:22Marc:That song's a heavy song.

01:12:24Marc:You're going to play that song, right?

01:12:25Marc:We're going to try to play that today.

01:12:29Marc:Yeah.

01:12:29Marc:How long did it take you to put this one together and what was the process of writing it?

01:12:33Guest:The record took five years.

01:12:34Guest:Wow.

01:12:35Guest:When we walked out the door from Get Up, I said, man, I think we might have something here.

01:12:39Guest:Yeah.

01:12:39Guest:And I set to, between the release of that record and this one, set to putting pen to paper.

01:12:45Marc:And did you do, like, oh, so you done, but you did the one with your mom in between then.

01:12:50Marc:Yeah.

01:12:50Marc:And you did one with your band.

01:12:51Marc:Yes, exactly.

01:12:53Marc:But you were working on these together?

01:12:54Guest:All the while, I just wouldn't let any of the songs that I knew would fit Charlie that I would be writing.

01:12:59Guest:Right.

01:12:59Guest:I just put them away.

01:13:00Guest:That one's for Charlie.

01:13:01Guest:That's with Charlie.

01:13:02Guest:You know, I'd know.

01:13:03Marc:Yeah.

01:13:03Guest:I'd have a certain thing.

01:13:04Marc:Yeah, yeah, so five years.

01:13:06Marc:And then you just, what, you'd send them to Charlie, you just said, I'm done, come on, Charlie, let's do these.

01:13:11Guest:Pretty much, it just sort of led, it just, the time opened up, the songs, the material was ready, and we were just ready.

01:13:18Guest:Right, Charlie?

01:13:18Guest:It wasn't a defined thing so much.

01:13:21Guest:No, we just went in and we all knew what to do.

01:13:23Guest:Yeah.

01:13:24Guest:It was just, the music...

01:13:26Marc:Lettuce.

01:13:28Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:13:29Marc:And then you put out an album in the last, you put out this album in between Get Up and the last one.

01:13:35Marc:Right, but this is the one you did between the one you did with him and this new one.

01:13:39Guest:That's like, you know, my own label.

01:13:41Marc:Yeah, it's great, man.

01:13:42Marc:Oh, you want to show me this guitar.

01:13:45Marc:So let me try to set up a functioning studio for you guys to play.

01:13:49Marc:And the record is out.

01:13:53Marc:Well, I'll do the setup later, but let's just try to get set up.

01:13:56Cool.

01:14:03Guest:What would be the first thing you'd say to the Lord?

01:14:14Guest:The last thing you'd dream if you couldn't dream no more?

01:14:20Guest:Would you please help me understand Is there no mercy in this land?

01:14:29Guest:No mercy in this land

01:14:33Guest:Followed the river till the river ran dry Followed my lover till we said goodbye Followed you through soldiers who fight on command He's at all mercy

01:14:56Guest:Thank you.

01:15:22Guest:These days I speak in whispers Travel only to and from Come close you'll see the ring Of a well-bitten tongue The righteous and the wretched The holy and the damned Is there no mercy in this land No mercy in this land

01:15:49Guest:Thank you.

01:16:10Guest:Father left us down here all alone.

01:16:22Guest:My poor mother, my poor stone.

01:16:26Guest:With an aching heart and trembling hands, is there a mercy in this land?

01:16:35.

01:16:36Guest:.

01:16:39.

01:16:40.

01:16:41Guest:.

01:17:08Marc:I don't have a mic, but thank you guys for coming.

01:17:25Guest:Thanks, Mark, for having us.

01:17:26Guest:Thanks for having us.