Episode 9 - Jim Gaffigan / Mad Men / Matthew
Guest 6:Lock the gates!
Guest 8:Are we doing this?
Guest 8:Really?
Guest 8:Wait for it.
Guest 8:Are we doing this?
Guest 8:Wait for it.
Guest 8:Pow!
Guest 8:What the fuck?
Guest 8:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest 8:What's wrong with me?
Guest 8:It's time for WTF!
Guest 2:What the fuck?
Guest 2:With Mark Maron.
Marc:Okay, what the fuckers, welcome to the show.
Marc:I am feeling pretty good.
Marc:I'm recovering from a sausage fest and pizza fest that happened primarily in my hotel room and within three or four miles of where I was staying in Chicago.
Marc:Thank you for your concern.
Marc:We've got a great show today.
Marc:Jim Gaffigan is stopping by.
Marc:Also...
Marc:For you seditionists, you might remember K-Lo, the Costco ho.
Marc:My old board op is going to come by and talk about Mad Men.
Marc:And of course, there'll be a few with Matthew.
Marc:And for you people who live in San Francisco, next week, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, October 8th, 9th, and 10th, I will be at the Punchline in San Francisco.
Marc:So please come down and share some time with me.
Marc:All right, so I just was at this place.
Marc:It's called the Chelsea Market.
Marc:It's a place that has gourmet food here in New York.
Marc:A lot of different stores, a lot of this and that.
Marc:And this is one of those... I think I'm getting past...
Marc:the mundane what-the-fuck moments that used to define my life.
Marc:I can't get aggravated about everything.
Marc:I go into this place.
Marc:I just want to get an espresso.
Marc:I just really want a nice, strong espresso.
Marc:I didn't want to go to Starbucks.
Marc:I got something in my mind, just good coffee.
Marc:And we get to this place.
Marc:It's called the 9th Street.
Marc:It's called 9th Street Coffee.
Marc:It's a counter.
Marc:They make espresso.
Marc:I'm looking at the menu.
Marc:It's an espresso menu.
Marc:So I say to the woman there,
Marc:I say, can I get a double espresso poured over a cup of ice?
Marc:She's like, we don't do that.
Marc:And I'm like, well, can I do you have ice?
Marc:She's like, yeah.
Marc:And I go, can you make me a double espresso?
Marc:She says, yes, but I can't sell it to you if you're going to pour it over the ice.
Marc:Now, in my life, that moment would have been such a huge, what the fuck?
Marc:Are you kidding me?
Marc:Are you kidding me?
Marc:What if I came back a few minutes from now?
Marc:What if I bought the double espresso, then came back and said, could I have a cup of ice with a half a cup of water?
Marc:And I had that moment where I was furious, but I just sucked it up.
Marc:And I said, why is that?
Marc:She goes, well, how would we maintain the integrity of what we're trying to do here?
Marc:if we would do that.
Marc:And I had to swallow it.
Marc:I swallowed the what the fuck moment.
Marc:And I said, well, can you make me a macchiato and just put a little milk in there under the foam?
Marc:She's like, we don't do foam here.
Marc:And I'm thinking like, you don't have fucking milk?
Marc:I mean, what are you talking about?
Marc:But it's called something different.
Marc:She goes, well, the crema is natural.
Marc:And I'm like, crema?
Marc:And I didn't even know what the fuck she was talking about.
Marc:But I said, well, then just give me a macchiato.
Marc:I sucked it up and I didn't condescend to her condescension with my practicality, which is like, just give me, pour it on the fucking ice.
Marc:You know, it was one of those moments where he kind of wished he had like a lot of money.
Marc:He said, would you do it for $20?
Marc:Would you compromise your integrity for $20 and pour your precious espresso over the ice just to see if you could bend her integrity over this ridiculous principle?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I got to be honest with you.
Marc:I sucked up the what the fuck.
Marc:I stood there.
Marc:She made me this macchiato with the crema and it was spectacular to the point where I was like, wow, that really is tremendous.
Marc:I'm so happy that you don't let me pour a double espresso over ice because it would have been so much less enjoyable.
Marc:And she seems sort of grateful about it as well.
Marc:She said, it's just really hard sometimes to do this because this place is like a family.
Marc:We all love each other.
Marc:We have sort of a love-hate thing going.
Marc:And I said, well, it's nice to work someplace where you can believe in something.
Marc:She says, well, it's great.
Marc:And I said, well, coffee is very important.
Marc:And then she started talking about, yeah, I think coffee and oil are very large commodities.
Marc:And I said, no, I'm more thinking along the lines of food, coffee, and sex.
Marc:They kind of take the top three in one form or another with me on any given day.
Marc:She's like, oh, yeah, I guess that's like the Trinity.
Marc:And I'm like, yes, and please maintain your integrity with this coffee because it was certainly worth it.
Marc:But seriously, what the fuck?
Marc:Are you kidding me?
Marc:Are you kidding me?
Marc:I should have said, just give me a cup of ice.
Marc:Can I have a cup of ice now?
Marc:I'm not going to put any coffee in it.
Marc:But the real thing is I started to realize, because we're going to talk to Jim Gaffigan in a little while, that mundane stuff, it's very hard for me to get angry, as I used to, about little bullshit.
Marc:Because I learned this valuable lesson.
Marc:And I believe it's true.
Marc:That if you're one of these people that gets up in the morning and you're like, oh shit, I swept through my alarm or oh my God, my cat shit in my shoe.
Marc:Oh Jesus, I just spilled coffee on my pants.
Marc:How come I'm out of toothpaste?
Marc:If that's your morning...
Marc:If you have the right personality, you will connect all those things.
Marc:And it becomes this sort of Jobian experience.
Marc:Like, why me?
Marc:Why no toothpaste?
Marc:Why did the homeless guy throw up on my shoe on the subway?
Marc:How could this happen to me?
Marc:There was 10, 15 people on the car, but he chose my foot to throw up on after I spilled coffee on myself.
Marc:After my cat shit in my shoe and I ran out of toothpaste.
Marc:I mean, what the fuck is happening with my life?
Marc:I'm being persecuted by this bullshit.
Marc:It's just a never ending series of what the fuck moments.
Marc:I find that if you surrender to that and really believe that all those things are connected, you will become God's clown.
Marc:You will become a little comedy of errors in yourself.
Marc:Because if you're walking around like that, oh, just another damn thing.
Marc:Sure enough, birds will focus on you to shit upon.
Marc:Things will happen to you.
Marc:You will be so tense and aggravated and anxious about these little things that keep happening to you that they just won't be able to stop happening.
Marc:And you will become one of God's silly clowns.
Marc:Look at the tense clown.
Marc:Look at what just happened to him.
Marc:Oh my God, that car just drove by and sprayed all that water on that man.
Marc:When people see that and laugh, they don't realize that your entire day has been filled with that because you think you are being persecuted when really you are just God's puppet, God's little comedy of errors.
Marc:You just have to let it go.
Marc:Keeping that in mind, I need to talk to Jim Gaffigan about how he writes jokes about all these little things.
Marc:Because I think I'm becoming more spiritually aware and I'm able to let certain things go.
Marc:There are certain things I can't let go.
Marc:Like today I had this realization that...
Marc:with this public health care option, I had this weird moment, and I don't know if it really resonates, that I want a public option because I'm about to lose my insurance and it would be very helpful to me.
Marc:And then I started thinking about how some people criticize it as like, you don't want the government to be involved in your health care because then it'll be a big bureaucracy, you'll be waiting on lines, you won't get very good treatment.
Marc:And then I started to think about it.
Marc:And I was waiting online at the post office when I was thinking about it.
Marc:And I realized like, wait a minute, this is sort of the same thing.
Marc:The post office is like this weird, arcane, government-run bureaucracy that we have to wait online for.
Marc:You never know what they're doing back there.
Marc:Why does it take them so long?
Marc:Do they just take the little ticket with your package number on it and then go on back and laugh and eat a sandwich?
Marc:How come it takes so long?
Marc:And why is there never enough people at the post office?
Marc:And the truth of the matter is that your only other option is to pay more money for FedEx or UPS.
Marc:And to be quite honest with you, even though it takes a long time at the post office waiting online and stuff, I still enjoy the service and I like buying the pretty stamps.
Marc:And I like knowing it's there.
Marc:I like going to the post office.
Marc:It's a community thing and I'm taken care of.
Marc:So I started to think about health care in the same way that like, what's the worst it could be?
Marc:A little bit like the post office?
Marc:That's okay, as long as I get something the equivalent of a Gary Cooper stamp or maybe something like a Christmassy stamp.
Marc:Sometimes they have the Christmassy stamps with Arabic letters on it that I don't really read.
Marc:I don't really believe in Christmas anyways, but it's nice to have the stamps or the heart stamps.
Marc:I don't mind the post office is what I'm saying, and I think I wouldn't mind a public option as well.
Marc:But see, what do I see?
Marc:That's how that's a good example of me working on a mundane joke is I take an experience of waiting on the post office and try to amplify it into something representational of the public health care debate.
Marc:Why can't I just focus on little things like like Hot Pockets?
Guest 2:Never really see that on a menu when you go out to dinner.
Guest 2:Let's see.
Guest 2:I'll have the Caesar salad and the Hot Pocket.
Guest 3:Uh, tonight's specials, we have a sea bass, which is broiled, and we have a hot pocket, which is cooked in a dirty microwave.
Guest 3:And that comes with a side of Pepto.
Guest 3:Is your hot pocket cold in the middle?
Guest 3:It's frozen.
Guest 3:But it can be served boiling lava hot.
Guest 3:Will it burn my mouth?
Guest 2:It'll destroy your mouth.
Guest 2:Everything will taste like rubber for a month.
Guest 2:All over the Hot Pocket.
Guest 2:Hot Pocket!
Guest 2:Hot Pockets, yeah.
Guest 2:They haven't been around that long, like 10 years.
Guest 2:How'd they come up with that?
Guest 2:Was there some kind of marketing meeting like, I got an idea.
Guest 3:How about we fill a Pop-Tart with nasty meat?
Guest 3:And you could cook it in a sleeve thing.
Guest 3:And you could dunk it in the toilet.
Guest 3:There is the vegetarian Hot Pocket for those of us that don't want to eat meat but still would like diarrhea.
Marc:Hot Pocket.
Marc:Ready?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Are you ready?
Guest 2:Yes.
Guest 2:You got the Nicorette there going?
Marc:I got plenty of Nicorette.
Marc:That voice you hear is Jim Gaffigan, the comedian.
Marc:Now you're going to take the headphones off or put the bag down?
Guest 2:No, I'm taking off my bag slash purse.
Marc:I assume you've done this before.
Marc:I didn't know it was going to be, you know, I mean, you all set?
Guest 2:I'm settled in.
Guest 2:Thank you.
Marc:Jim Gaffigan, as you know, is huge.
Marc:Not physically, but as a comedian, he's taken over the entire Midwest of this country.
Marc:Is that true?
Guest 2:Yes.
Guest 2:It's under my jurisdiction right now.
Marc:It's all under Gaffigan's jurisdiction.
Marc:And I'm not, you know, look, you know, I love you and you know that I have the slight bit of jealousy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, but I know that on some level you must feel that for me.
Guest 2:I get it.
Guest 2:You and I are, um, there's a similar insanity.
Marc:Do you want some nicotine gum?
Guest 2:I got some going.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:You do?
Guest 2:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Have you tried the Swedish snus?
Marc:Have you tried that?
Guest 2:No.
Guest 2:What's that?
Marc:It's the stuff that they make in Sweden.
Marc:It's a tobacco product.
Marc:It's like a pouch of chewing tobacco, but you put it in your upper lip and you don't have to spit.
Marc:And they make like all different kinds and they make it very strong.
Guest 2:And it makes your teeth nice and black, I'm sure.
Marc:I'm sure it does all kinds of things.
Marc:But hey, anything's better than smoking, right?
Guest 2:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Guest 2:Well, you know, the Scandinavians, that's why all that dipping is called Copenhagen and Skoll.
Guest 2:It's like that's their thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And this is a Scandinavian product.
Marc:I have some right here in my bag.
Marc:I could show it to you.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you could smell it.
Guest 2:No, I used to chew tobacco for a long time.
Marc:When was that?
Guest 2:I'm from Indiana.
Guest 2:So it's like...
Marc:When you were a kid?
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:Yeah, there was a lot of chewing of tobacco.
Guest 2:You dipped?
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:Did you ever dip?
Marc:I'm a Jew.
Marc:Jews don't dip.
Guest 2:Well, aren't you from, like, New Mexico, though, or Arizona?
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:You know, Jew puts that stuff in his mouth.
Marc:Here was the one experience.
Marc:Me and my brother got hold of some Copenhagen from some cowboy who said, you want to dip?
Marc:So, of course, me and my little brother, I'm like...
Marc:Yeah, let me try it.
Marc:So we put a dip of Copenhagen in.
Marc:I immediately start sweating and have to go inside.
Marc:My brother throws up in the bathtub.
Marc:And I don't think that's a good commercial for dipping.
Marc:Like, look at Jews dipping.
Guest 2:Or maybe that could be... But that's like everyone dipping, though.
Guest 2:You need someone there, like an older brother who's...
Marc:Smell that snooze.
Marc:This one is extra strong.
Guest 2:Yeah, that's a little bit... It's got bergamot.
Guest 2:There's Copenhagen, and then there's like a level above it, which was just like... That's what this is.
Guest 2:Just ass.
Guest 2:But, you know, you grow... It's like coffee.
Guest 2:The stronger the coffee...
Marc:That's what happened.
Marc:Someone recommended this to me, because I was on the show with the lozenges, with the gum, and they're like, try this, this'll get you off cigarettes.
Marc:Not realizing, I'd have no desire.
Marc:I've been off cigarettes a long time.
Marc:I just love nicotine.
Marc:So I get some of the really, I get a variety pack, and I put the strongest one in my mouth, and literally, I had to sit down, because I was sweating, and I started to go out.
Marc:I started to like, oh God, I'm going down, and then once I got through it, I'm like, I gotta get more of this.
Marc:This is the way a man wakes up in Sweden.
Marc:And I want to be one of those men.
Marc:When did you dip?
Marc:In high school?
Guest 2:I dipped through high school and college.
Guest 2:I went from dipping to smoking and then from smoking to chewing the nicotine gum.
Wow.
Guest 2:But the thing, the dipping, it is really, it's really, I mean, all those habits are disgusting.
Guest 2:I guess the gum's not that bad.
Guest 2:But the dipping, it's really filthy.
Guest 2:It like makes your mouth, your breath nasty.
Guest 2:It makes your teeth black.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:You know.
Marc:But isn't it worth it?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you got to commit to something.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:Well, you, you know, we all, you need your vice, right?
Marc:You know, it's interesting.
Marc:Here's a, here's an interesting thing that I'll share with you.
Marc:Cause it has to do with comedy and I'm not going to mention any names, but you do the comedy.
Marc:You do.
Marc:It's very enjoyable.
Marc:Everyone likes you.
Marc:People, people know, even though you talk about things, everyone can understand that you're really fucked up, you know, somewhere in there.
Marc:They're like, this guy's a little weird, which I respect.
Yeah.
Marc:But when you act, I mean, you choose projects that you like to do.
Marc:Correct?
Marc:Have you turned down acting projects?
Guest 2:Yeah, some.
Guest 2:Not a lot.
Guest 2:I mean, yeah, there's... I probably have gotten way more selective recently.
Guest 2:But then again, it's like, you know, it's like as a comedian, it's like, how do you... Someone's going to pay you twice as much as you made...
Marc:Doing five dates on the road at theaters.
Guest 2:You know what I mean?
Guest 2:There's something about, I think, a creative person, particularly when you just suck wind for so long that when someone wants you to be on... I'm trying to think of...
Guest 2:This one... It was like Models, Inc.
Guest 2:or something like... Nothing... I never saw the show, you know?
Guest 2:But it's like... But it was an offer, and I was like, how flattering.
Guest 2:But then there's the other side of me.
Guest 2:It's like, well, you know, do you want to do that?
Guest 2:But...
Guest 2:So it's like it's it's getting to a little bit more of a point where I'm saying no to things.
Marc:But you've had some sweet deals.
Marc:I mean, even even the the funny thing is about comics is when you start out, when you go out for movies, you get all worked up.
Marc:You're like, I'm going in on a movie audition.
Marc:It's always like, you want two of those?
Guest 2:Yeah.
Marc:And that's it.
Marc:That's the whole line.
Marc:And they're like, work with it.
Marc:Work with it.
Marc:Work with what?
Marc:I'm the guy at the thing that says you want two of those.
Guest 2:Either I look like the guy that's a construction worker or I don't.
Marc:Right.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Marc:But the interesting thing about you is because you have a unique look.
Marc:I mean, even in Three Kings, you had like a great scene.
Guest 2:Oh, thanks.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, and like I see it and I'm like, dude, that's Jim Gaffigan.
Marc:Don't people come up to you and go, you're the guy from Three Kings?
Marc:um yeah when you know yeah and then you were in the now I'm being like Chris Farley then you were in that other one that was just on that I saw that I enjoyed the one that Dave Eggers wrote away we go yeah that was a good part that was a great part yeah I mean how long were you on set for that um I think like four days isn't it fun it's so fun you feel like you've like arrived
Guest 2:Well, it's the whole notion of arriving is a myth, but I do feel like, all right, hey, Sam Mendes, this has to be a little bit of a brush fire.
Guest 2:Not at all.
Guest 2:It's not.
Marc:Yeah, I have that thing where if I do anything that requires a crew and there's cameras involved...
Marc:that right after, there's that moment where you're like, huh?
Guest 2:I did it.
Marc:I finally showed up.
Marc:Yeah, right?
Marc:The next day, you sort of feel like calling them.
Marc:Like, I was good, right?
Marc:How was I?
Marc:Are you going to get a good take out of that?
Marc:And then after about two days, you're like, I don't think they're going to call me anymore.
Guest 2:Well, I think there's also the other side where people do like you.
Guest 2:And you know that they're sincere.
Guest 2:And you're like, well, why can't you stuff me into that project?
Guest 2:And they're like, I can't wait to work with you again.
Guest 2:You're like, hey, that'd be great.
Guest 2:I'd love it.
Guest 2:And then you just see them do shows and movies.
Guest 2:And you're like, but that guy liked me.
Guest 2:Or that woman thought I was brilliant.
Guest 2:Why is she?
Guest 2:Right.
Marc:And then you realize that they're lying to us to make us feel better.
Guest 2:I think some of it is lying, but some of it is also like, we think that we could fit into any situation, but they're like, you know.
Marc:Why can't I play a black football player?
Guest 2:You know, yeah.
Marc:You know, I mean, you can change the part.
Marc:But I hate that when it goes the other way, where they're like, when you get the breakdown for the part, and it's like, man in his mid-70s with no arm.
Marc:And you're like, well, I'm clearly not right for this.
Marc:It's like they haven't decided.
Marc:But even if they stretch it a little bit, how am I going to be that guy?
Guest 2:And then, you know, like you'll read it.
Guest 2:And, you know, I've called my agents and been like, you know, I'm not right for this part.
Guest 2:And they're like, you know what, you were, you know, there's all these kind of like, you were a request.
Guest 2:And it's like, well, it's a it's a Hasidic Hispanic guy.
Guest 2:I don't think I'm going to get the part.
Guest 2:And they're like, you know what?
Guest 2:They might be going a different way.
Guest 2:I'm like, they're not going a different way.
Guest 2:How different could it be?
Marc:It's called Ola Shalom.
Guest 2:But it is.
Marc:They're not going to change the whole movie.
Guest 2:They're not.
Guest 2:I'm not going to fit in there.
Marc:Oh, but what I was getting at was that there was this moment I had, and I think you'll appreciate it only because you know me well enough to appreciate that.
Marc:It was probably one of those things that I did as a dig, but didn't realize it was until I walked away and someone was crying.
Marc:But I was talking to a comic who has been in a movie recently.
Marc:And he was at a comedy club with his wife.
Marc:And I said, well, congratulations on that.
Marc:He's like, yeah, you know, it's great.
Marc:You know, I'm very excited about it.
Marc:It was a great little scene.
Marc:I was really happy.
Marc:And I'm like, well, that's great that you got that.
Marc:He goes, you know, as I get older, I just realized, you know, I just, you got to be open to anything.
Marc:And then of course I said, or not.
Marc:And you just have to accept that you're not open to anything.
Marc:I think that's called having personal principles.
Marc:And somehow or another, that came off as an attack to his wife, I think.
Marc:Because she was like, what do you mean?
Marc:I'm like, congratulations.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest 2:I don't know.
Guest 2:It's like, you know, there's a certain... It wasn't you guys.
Guest 2:There's a certain conversation you have.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:You know, I think that comedians, you know, have...
Guest 2:you know, a deep seated cynicism and like that, you know, we kind of almost pull like, you know, you pull back.
Guest 2:I mean, you don't, you know, but there's that you pull back in social situations.
Marc:Well, you know what I'm actually hiding is a nice guy.
Marc:Underneath it all.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:A lot of guys, they put the nice guy out front.
Marc:They're like, you know, go ahead.
Marc:Go get the love you didn't get.
Marc:Go.
Marc:Take it in from these people you don't know.
Marc:I go the other way.
Marc:I defy them to like the asshole.
Marc:Then maybe I'll show them the nice guy.
Guest 2:I love that story.
Guest 2:Isn't that great?
Guest 2:I see that in the miniseries.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest 2:Do you think I can pitch that?
Guest 2:I see an article in Men's Health.
Marc:I think you could play me in it.
Guest 2:I could.
Guest 2:Would that be a challenge?
Guest 2:Could you play me?
Guest 2:That would be.
Guest 2:I'd have to, you know, not eat for a year.
Guest 2:But, yeah, maybe I could do it.
Marc:All right, so you're out in the Midwest.
Guest 2:You're doing... Well, you know, it's like you make it sound like, look, he's not Jewish.
Guest 2:He's this goyim from the Midwest.
Guest 2:What do you expect?
Guest 2:Those Midwesterners are going to buy this stuff.
Guest 2:I mean, come on.
Guest 2:Let's be serious.
Guest 2:Vanilla to the vanilla people.
Guest 2:There's Dairy Queen there, folks.
Marc:Were you just channeling my brain?
Marc:Did you just... It's a little bit of... I'm sorry.
Marc:I don't mean... Let's say you're out there in the Midwest and occasionally Seattle.
Marc:And you play some parts of California where people like you.
Guest 2:You know, I'm not gonna engage in defensiveness.
Marc:Really?
Marc:I'm not, I'm not.
Marc:That nicotine gum really works for you.
Guest 2:It does, yeah.
Guest 2:I'm growing a tumor right now.
Marc:I guess my problem is, and I don't know if I've talked to you about this before, is the thing I envy about you
Marc:is that you write a lot of jokes about a lot of things.
Marc:And for me, if it isn't loaded with some existential equation, like if I can't wrench darkness and light out of it, I don't seem to deal with the mundane enough.
Marc:Of course.
Guest 7:He's deep and you're not.
Guest 2:This is my lovely wife and actually my writing partner in all my comedy.
Guest 2:Come up to the mic.
Marc:You're in now.
Guest 2:Taking over her comedic point of view.
Marc:Could you introduce her with her name, Jim?
Guest 2:This is my wonderful wife, Jeannie.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Because that was better than like, oh yeah, this is my wife.
Guest 2:Well, you've met her before.
Guest 2:That's why I would say that.
Marc:No, I know I've met her.
Marc:It's just that, you know, we're talking to a lot of people.
Marc:There are people right now in their automobiles.
Marc:Some people are on the treadmill.
Marc:You know, some people are very aggravated that they just spilled coffee in their life.
Guest 2:Or there's like 20 people sitting in front of their computer listening to this.
Guest 2:And maybe it's that.
Guest 2:But here's my thing.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:Here's what I believe.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:I believe that people get way too much credit and way too much criticism for doing their thing.
Guest 2:I think that comedians, whether it be Louis Black, Marc Maron, maybe I'm going to get in trouble with this, or Jeff Dunham.
Marc:Yeah, the puppet guy.
Guest 2:You know, they literally, people are like, either, you know, someone's like, they are filthy.
Guest 2:Or someone says like, they don't talk about anything important.
Guest 2:They're not attacking authority.
Guest 2:And the reality is, it's like, I think we're just kind of, we do what we do.
Guest 2:I agree with you actually.
Guest 2:It's not like Garth Brooks, like, or what, you know, didn't he do like a rock album?
Guest 2:And it doesn't work.
Guest 2:When Eddie Murphy does a music, it doesn't work because he does that thing.
Guest 2:That's not to say that he's not one of the greatest actors, but I think he is.
Guest 2:I do.
Guest 2:I think he is.
Marc:But I understand what you're saying.
Marc:And I actually, over time, have gotten to that same place.
Marc:It's show business.
Marc:We're not leaders.
Marc:We're not politicians.
Marc:We don't represent a community necessarily, unless you're gay or black or Latino or Chinese community.
Marc:But I mean, you and I are not representing a community necessarily.
Marc:Uh, and even then you're still performing for a community.
Marc:You're still an entertainer.
Marc:So after a certain point, the criticisms have to be within the realm of like, you know, we're in show business.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And if you succeed and you can live with yourself, you've done an amazing thing.
Guest 2:But it's also, it's also, I think, understanding, and this is going to sound really kind of corny, but it's understanding your voice, you know, and it's like your voice is,
Guest 2:you know, works best when you're discussing things that you discuss.
Guest 2:When I am a six foot two, you know, 230 pound blonde guy who has pale skin, if I talked about politics, you know, it's not like I just started off, you know, being a straight observational guy.
Guest 2:I talked about some politics.
Guest 2:I talked about, I did impressions, all these different things.
Guest 2:But the reality is, is like,
Guest 2:There is some... Let me put this in a larger context.
Guest 2:We're insane.
Guest 2:We go on stage and make strangers laugh.
Guest 2:There's nothing normal about that.
Guest 2:And so what we elicit is that same high that we got from doing this thing.
Guest 2:And so we work it out.
Guest 2:It's like you might have an unnecessary censorship...
Guest 2:that you put on yourself against an observational joke.
Guest 2:You know, it's like, I mean, people evolve, but there's something about it, like, where I just think that it's kind of like people are like, when is Motorhead going to write a country song?
Guest 2:I am waiting.
Guest 2:I mean, it's just like, it's a little bit...
Marc:No, I understand.
Marc:And it drives me to ask the question, do you know what my voice is?
Marc:Because I could use some help.
Marc:Could you give me some notes?
Marc:Could you watch a half hour and just say this?
Guest 2:I think you are a social satirist.
Guest 2:But I would also say that there is something about...
Guest 2:There's something about different styles of comedy and also just how there's different styles of music.
Guest 2:But there's also like, you know, some people are about some subtext.
Guest 2:Some people are about yelling.
Guest 2:Some people are preachers.
Guest 2:Some people are clowns.
Marc:But you just know what you do.
Marc:Because when I write jokes, if I write an observational joke, which I have, a lot of times what happens to me is that it's almost like... You'll want to hang yourself.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:I mean, I can definitely appreciate a good joke and I and I have them within what I do.
Marc:But there's some part of me.
Marc:I always think of that, you know, that that scene, like even when I do, I just put together a show set for The Tonight Show.
Marc:So even when I do that, you remember the scene in Butch Cassie and the Sundance Kid when they go to get the job to protect the guys taking gold across the canyon and they got to shoot and Sundance is shooting and he can't hit the piece of wood.
Marc:And Paul Newman's like, you know, what's the problem?
Marc:And he goes, well, can I move?
Marc:And then he moves and he's able to blow it all apart.
Marc:That there's something that restricts me.
Marc:Like, I feel like it's not, I'm not quite, you know, I can't just let the joke sit on its own.
Marc:I have to blather on a bit.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:But that's how I do it.
Guest 2:I mean, I also think that there's something about...
Guest 2:And there is... I mean, comedy has such a... This is really me sounding pompous.
Guest 2:But there's something... There's such a rich history of dealing with censorship in stand-up comedy.
Guest 2:And dealing with kind of like challenging the social norms.
Guest 2:You know, Lenny Bruce or Carlin and stuff like that.
Guest 2:But the thing is, is like there's also...
Guest 2:You know, people want to laugh.
Guest 2:And, you know, I mean, I definitely don't want to be known as vanilla and stuff like that.
Marc:You're not.
Marc:You're known as, like, a slightly disturbed man.
Guest 2:There is something about, like, there's always been, you know, someone like Letterman or Bill Murray.
Guest 2:And I'm not associating myself with them.
Guest 2:But there's always been people that were not...
Guest 2:Lenny Bruce.
Guest 2:Of course, no.
Marc:It's like the difference between comedians and stand-ups and clowns.
Marc:All that doesn't matter.
Marc:The weird thing about it matters to a degree, but we're all doing the same thing.
Marc:But the interesting thing about you is you're kind of perverse, and that meta voice that you created for yourself, and you know it's odd.
Guest 2:Well, you know, Todd Glass, I mean, you know, I'm sure you get, you know, this is a comedy nerd conversation that we're having right here.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I'm playing to them a bit.
Guest 2:Well, I'm a huge comedy nerd.
Guest 2:And the thing, you know, like Todd Glass has this great point where it's like comedians, you know, everything's evolving and moving along.
Guest 2:So it used to be kind of like...
Guest 2:Seinfeld, the observational comic, or Lenny Bruce, this outspoken social satirist.
Guest 2:But Todd's thing is that, or the clown, or the preacher, and Todd's belief was that you need two of those things now.
Guest 2:You can't just be the observational guy like Seinfeld.
Guest 2:You can't just be
Guest 2:The true eccentric like Emo Phillips was.
Guest 2:You have to be, you have to combine two of them because there is a sophistication that's almost particularly among like a 14 year old that's watched Comedy Central for seven years.
Marc:But yeah, there's also a lot of people that think comedy started at Mr. Show.
Marc:And oddly, you know, to kind of say something about Todd Glass, he didn't just choose two.
Marc:I think he chose like seven.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Marc:Because he's like him and Dana Gould are like watching the history of comedy.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Marc:Anytime you watch those two, you're like, oh, my God, they're actually.
Guest 2:You're like, there's the Borscht Belt.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Marc:There's everything.
Marc:It's all in there.
Marc:And I think that's in all of us a little bit.
Marc:But the process of writing.
Marc:So your wife writes for you.
Guest 1:We write together.
Guest 1:We write together.
Marc:But is there moments where you're like, Jim, Jim, you're eating yogurt like a monkey.
Marc:You should talk about that.
Marc:Do you have those moments?
Guest 7:Well, yeah.
Guest 7:There's moments where I'll introduce a topic.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest 7:But a lot of it is just like going over topics and just like beating the hell out of them.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:It's like finding a topic and just, you know.
Guest 7:Just having two people's minds just dissect that one thing.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:It's like, did you think about this?
Marc:Here's how that would have went when I was married.
Marc:She would say something.
Marc:I'd go, well, you don't think it's good?
Marc:And she'd go, no, I'm not saying that.
Marc:And I'd say, but why would you rewrite it like that?
Marc:And she'd say, I just think it would be funnier.
Marc:I'm like, why don't I just not fucking do the joke then?
Marc:And it never got very far with that.
Guest 7:Well, there's conversations like that.
Guest 2:I'm good.
Guest 2:It's like any creative process.
Guest 7:Or I'll beg him to do something.
Guest 7:He's like, that didn't work one time.
Guest 7:And I'm just like, one audience?
Guest 7:You're going to waste that on one audience?
Marc:Right.
Guest 7:And that's actually some of the...
Guest 7:we're doing some seafood stuff now and the seafood stuff can we get a preview can we get a preview of the seafood material please but the seafood stuff i've been trying to get in for like five years holy shit she's committed to the seafood stuff and you're leaving her hanging five years no but some of it is like i'm not buying it
Guest 2:You know, if you have, I don't know.
Guest 2:Do it.
Marc:Come on, Jim.
Marc:We're among friends here.
Guest 2:Well, my whole thing is, I do think that if you have a bunch of jokes around a certain topic, you know, like if you sit there and you spend all your time segueing
Guest 2:You know what's interesting about seafood is it seems like they're insects in the ocean.
Guest 2:And then you change the topic.
Guest 2:It's like, that joke better be the best joke ever.
Guest 2:No, you kind of read it through.
Marc:And then later you'll say, like, insects in the ocean.
Guest 2:And you bring it back.
Guest 2:But if you introduce a topic and you...
Guest 2:kind of strip it bare, you know, you can have A's and B's, you know, different levels of jokes in there.
Guest 2:Yeah, oddly.
Guest 2:So I had seafood jokes a couple years ago.
Guest 2:And she was like, those are great seafood jokes.
Guest 2:And I'm like, what, you know, two?
Guest 2:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it's growing the seafood junk?
Guest 7:Yeah, so we took it back out.
Guest 7:You pulled it back out.
Marc:You put it back up on the anvil.
Marc:Start hammering.
Guest 7:Put it on the anvil.
Guest 7:Start hammering.
Marc:So what do we got?
Guest 7:We're building a chunk about seafood.
Guest 7:You're a comedian.
Marc:Hold on.
Marc:Let me check my list.
Marc:So, Jim, you like shrimp.
Marc:You like shrimp?
Marc:Jim, you know, I had an experience in Queens where I had to buy a red snapper.
Marc:It was a whole red snapper.
Guest 2:I understand you've been eating a lot of shrimp lately.
Guest 7:Is that true?
Guest 2:No, I understand you just went out to dinner to a seafood restaurant.
Guest 2:Is that true?
Guest 7:See, now I'm going to get in trouble for bringing up seafood.
Guest 2:No, no.
Guest 2:It's totally just the awkwardness of every... You know, if only that happened at radio stations, that would be great.
Marc:Well, what I've been experiencing now is that I'm finding that I have, because I do radio and because I'm doing the podcast and because I have certain fans that have known me a long time, that they know me much better than I know them, per se, because I don't know them at all.
Guest 2:Right, right.
Marc:Do you have...
Marc:But they come up to me and they're like, how are your cats?
Marc:And by the way, I've been working on a fairly significant cat chunk for you.
Marc:And that's new for me.
Marc:But you have a certain type of fan.
Marc:Can you share some disturbing moments, perhaps, or some things that have thrown you where you've shown up and either someone has maybe a tattoo of you on them or...
Guest 2:No, I mean, I, you know, I would say that the weirdest thing is the whole Hot Pocket thing, that it is, you know, gone.
Marc:What happened?
Guest 2:So you have, like, that's a famous- It's just like, literally, I'll be with my kids in the airport and someone will just yell Hot Pocket.
Marc:Like you're the Hot Pocket guy.
Guest 7:He's the Hot Pocket guy.
Guest 7:And it's like, it's so weird because it's just like this one thing that turned into this huge thing.
Guest 7:That's just this little tiny thing.
Guest 2:It's like, I remember.
Guest 7:Everyone loved it.
Guest 2:I remember when I was at Caroline's.
Guest 7:He can't get away from it.
Guest 2:I remember when I was at Caroline's and I was doing, you know, one of those horrible Sunday night shows.
Guest 2:There were 20 people there and Vic Henley was emceeing.
Guest 2:And I did a couple of these Hot Pocket jokes.
Guest 2:And I got off stage and I was like, you know, and it was a while ago, you know, I was like, I don't know.
Guest 2:I just saw the commercial.
Guest 2:I just saw it.
Guest 2:And he goes, dude, that's funny.
Guest 2:You got it.
Guest 2:You know, so it's like, and I was like, all right.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:And I was like, all right.
Guest 2:And so, you know, it was kind of, because I would do it at that point and there would be like some people that, you know, it's kind of ironic to say, but not everyone knew what that product was.
Guest 2:Right.
Guest 2:But, you know, the weird thing about the Hot Pocket thing is that
Guest 2:There's just something very strange about people just yelling it.
Guest 2:It's like someone addressing you by what shirt you're wearing.
Guest 2:Blue shirt!
Guest 2:And you're like, hi.
Guest 2:You have no idea how to respond.
Guest 2:You don't know whether to say thank you.
Guest 2:You don't know if they're being a dick about it.
Guest 7:And there's people outside the theaters walking around in hot pocket outfits.
Guest 7:And they think it's part of the show.
Guest 2:Well, Hot Pockets did research.
Guest 2:This is what I found out.
Guest 2:The company Hot Pockets.
Guest 2:Hot Pockets did research and found that I was helping sell Hot Pockets.
Guest 7:Even though he trashes them.
Guest 2:Even though I talk about diarrhea the entire time.
Guest 2:And so what they did is they would just start sending someone dressed as a Hot Pocket to my shows.
Guest 2:The Hot Pocket people.
Guest 7:Handing out, like, coupons and stuff.
Guest 2:And so I was like, you know, no.
Guest 2:Because I don't want to be known as just the Hot Pocket guy.
Marc:Well, my fear when you brought that up was that this was some fan's idea of a way to connect with you is to dress as a Hot Pocket.
Marc:I'm almost relieved that it was the company and not some just weird guy going, Jim!
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:No, no, no.
Guest 7:He's not like Elvis or anything.
Guest 2:No, there's nothing like that, really.
Marc:So what do you got coming up?
Marc:Because we're going to probably do this one tomorrow.
Marc:So what do you think?
Guest 2:What do I got?
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:I'm in an episode of Law & Order.
Marc:That you did with Michael Showalter because I watched you guys tweet like a couple of cute little guys.
Marc:A couple of girls tweeting away on the set of Law & Order.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:And there's like Baron Vons in the episode.
Guest 2:There's like five comedians in the episode.
Marc:Were any of them playing comedians?
Guest 2:No.
Guest 2:Wow.
Guest 2:Yeah.
Guest 2:It's quite the coincidence.
Marc:You got any shows coming up?
Guest 2:I'm going to Nashville and Dallas in October.
Guest 2:I guess we're in October.
Guest 2:Are we?
Guest 2:Or any second.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It'll be October when you're talking.
Guest 2:And then doing some colleges, Rochester and Rhode Island and Florida State.
Guest 2:Spectacular.
Guest 2:Very exciting.
Marc:I will show up at two of those gigs in a Hot Pocket outfit.
Guest 2:That would be great.
Marc:If you bring me on stage.
Guest 2:That would be great.
Marc:And let me do some political satire to rest as a Hot Pocket.
Marc:You know, educate these people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We'll sneak it in.
Marc:I'll be like, I'm the Hot Pocket guy.
Marc:Who wants a public option?
Fuck.
Marc:no yeah love it all right so i'll just ride down what you guys in yeah we can do that awesome thank you mark i feel like it went awkward there i love you mark you know i love him more it didn't go awkward i would say it went really really now it's awkward now it's a little awkward do you want to be my co-host sure oh look at that yeah how many kids next mark three you have three children yes on purpose
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they're how old?
Guest 2:Five, three, and five months.
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Marc:A baby.
Marc:So you guys must be so happy to be out.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest 7:She'll be five months October 10th.
Marc:That's very exciting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you like all your kids.
Guest 7:Oh, I love them.
Guest 7:They're so awesome.
Marc:That's spectacular.
Guest 7:They're really great.
Marc:You like them?
Guest 7:No complaints.
Guest 2:Huge fan of them.
Guest 2:I really enjoy their work.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, now it's gotten awkward, officially, for some reason.
Marc:But I'm glad you had kids.
Marc:And I don't think I'm going to have any.
Marc:So that's probably good, right?
Marc:Can I have one of yours?
Guest 7:This is a low note.
Guest 7:Let's bring it back, Mark.
Guest 7:I was your co-host.
Marc:We already outroed.
Marc:We don't have to use it.
Marc:It's fine for rubbing your kids in my face.
Marc:It was going well, and now I've got to be reminded.
Guest 2:We had them.
Guest 2:Despite me.
Guest 2:So that you would feel bad about it.
Marc:No, I know that.
Marc:i've known you a long time i know what's going on i'm on to you and louie getting movies despite me and todd barry appearing in films i know what this is about this is all about ha ha ha mark who doesn't have a movie who doesn't have a child who isn't on television all the time i i understand what how this business why we came i know it's so weird what's like that is what's going on really it's actually an intervention
Guest 2:It's a narcissistic intervention.
Guest 2:Frankly, it's an exhausting, and I hope this isn't weird, but your mom and dad have been paying for it, and then they stopped paying.
Guest 2:So now Todd and everyone.
Marc:You're all stuck in it, and no one's going to pay it anymore.
Guest 2:We're not going to do it anymore if we're getting paid.
Guest 2:But then we fell in love with you, and we couldn't stop.
Marc:I know, I know.
Marc:Thanks for coming, you guys, Jeannie and Jim Gaffigan.
Marc:So let's have this conversation because we flew Chris Lopresto in.
Marc:Some of you may remember Chris Lopresto, K-Lo, from Morning Sedition.
Marc:Mark.
Marc:The fearless board op.
Marc:He looks all tan, too.
Marc:Look at him.
Marc:Wow, tan, your head shaved, and you look good.
Marc:You're lean.
Marc:What the hell is going on?
Marc:I did just get back from Greece.
Marc:How long were you in Greece?
Marc:10 days.
Marc:What happens there?
Marc:Nude beach, actually.
Guest 5:Really?
Marc:That's the whole time?
Marc:The whole 10 days?
Guest 5:Nude beach?
Guest 5:Six.
Guest 5:Six days.
Marc:And you went with the woman?
Guest 5:Yes.
Guest 5:I went with my girlfriend.
Marc:Who you live with now?
Marc:Yes, it's true.
Marc:Oh my God, you've grown up.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It's sad.
Marc:It's ridiculous.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now in Greece, if I could real quick, you go to Greece, you see the Parthenon, right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And you see some rocks and ruins.
Guest 5:Yeah, by the way, that looks like shit, by the way.
Marc:It's old, Chris.
Guest 5:No, no, no.
Guest 5:Not only that, but it has scaffolding on it.
Guest 5:It looks like the Statue of Liberty back in the 90s.
Guest 5:Well, they're trying to help it.
Guest 5:No, it's going to be like that forever.
Marc:With scaffolding.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're just going to add that?
Guest 5:Yeah.
Marc:As time goes on, they're going to be like, then they added the scaffolding in 2007.
Marc:Now that it's 3,004, people are amazed that that scaffolding is still there.
Marc:And beneath it are ruins that are thousands of years old.
Marc:They're thinking ahead.
Marc:I suppose so.
Marc:They're ahead of the curve.
Marc:So did you have any moments here like Patton had?
Marc:Didn't Patton stand over a battlefield and say, it was here?
Marc:This is where the great wars were fought.
Marc:It was somewhere in Turkey or somewhere.
Marc:Did you have anything like that happen?
Guest 5:No, not, you know, I actually turned 30 while I was there.
Guest 5:And that was the thing.
Guest 5:There was no big epiphany moment.
Guest 5:At 30?
Guest 5:Yeah, I was like, you know, pissed off.
Guest 5:I was like, I wanted some like big epiphany.
Guest 5:I was looking at the ancient ruins of a civilization.
Marc:Right, the cradle of modern civilization.
Marc:And you turn 30 like, this is fucking it?
Guest 5:I know.
Guest 5:I was like, man, my ass hurts a little.
Guest 5:I'm chafing.
Guest 5:Like, that's it.
Marc:Where democracy began?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where Plato walked around and thought things and Socrates doodled?
Marc:Yeah, I'm like, I'm hungry.
Marc:I think that's the proper tourist thing to have.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:There's no reason to put it in historical perspective.
Marc:You turned 30, you were standing in the cradle of modern democracy, you were hungry, your ass itched, and you wanted to go to a nude beach.
Guest 5:Yes.
Marc:I think those are the gifts of a free world.
Marc:So I think you're honoring the memory of Greece.
Marc:Thank God.
Marc:Now let's talk about this show that I, because Brendan's a fan, you're a fan.
Guest 9:I got to tell you, I'm only a fan because Chris made me a fan.
Guest 9:And this was maybe two years ago.
Guest 9:He was so ahead of the curve and he said, you've got to watch this show Mad Men.
Guest 9:And I was like, what's that?
Guest 9:And he's like, it's on AMC.
Guest 9:And I was like, AMC?
Guest 9:They show short circuit.
Guest 9:I'm never going to turn that on.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I felt the same way.
Marc:And then when I saw The Coming Attractions and the credits for it, I was like, this is ridiculous.
Marc:It was so campy and retarded.
Guest 9:Right, right.
Guest 9:I didn't get into it until I was stuck on a plane.
Guest 9:And the plane had the digital TV in the back of the headrest.
Guest 9:And I watched about four episodes in a row.
Guest 9:And it was like crack.
Guest 9:I needed to mainline it.
Marc:Well, I think that's what happens is that when you're a man and someone tells you to watch Mad Men, your initial response is like, I'm not going to watch that.
Marc:It's on AMC.
Marc:And then within 15 minutes of watching it, you realize I'm in love with Don Draper.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That guy is like the best guy in the world.
Marc:Not only do I have a man crush, I would actually probably go out with that guy.
Guest 9:I was telling Chris this today that I actually caused a fight in my household this past episode.
Guest 9:What?
Guest 9:Because I said Don Draper is my hero.
Guest 9:Oh, man.
Marc:So your wife is like, why?
Marc:Because what does he do that's so heroic?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:He sweeps around on his wife?
Guest 5:I've had this argument for the entire time.
Guest 5:Really?
Guest 5:My girlfriend thinks this guy is the scum of the earth.
Guest 9:It's so funny because she was so furious at the fact that the first episode of this new season, he was sleeping with that stewardess.
Guest 9:And she was like, he didn't fucking learn anything!
Guest 9:He's fucking... Motherfucker!
Guest 9:She got so... It was like when Michael Vick killed dogs.
Guest 9:She was treating Don Draper like that.
Guest 9:And then the one we were watching this past week was this great moment where the character who's the copywriter...
Guest 9:who used to be Don Draper's secretary.
Marc:The woman.
Guest 9:What's her name?
Marc:Peggy.
Guest 9:Peggy.
Guest 9:She's great.
Guest 9:She's very good.
Guest 9:It's a great character.
Guest 9:Very, very, a lot of depth to the character.
Guest 9:But she's very ambitious.
Guest 9:And as you see this season going on, you see her ambitions growing because of
Guest 9:basically the male environment she's invested herself in.
Guest 9:Right.
Guest 9:She's starting to grow a dick.
Guest 9:In a way, she's growing a bigger dick than the guys.
Guest 9:Right.
Guest 9:And he had this moment with Peggy where she's already asked him for a raise, which she probably doesn't deserve at this point.
Guest 9:And then she went in on the pretense of bringing him something that he had to sign off on for work.
Guest 9:And if people don't know, they work at an ad agency and he's the creative director.
Guest 9:So she was bringing him something...
Guest 9:Under the auspices of trying to get a new account he got was the Hilton Hotels because Conrad, a big subplot of the show is Conrad Hilton came to him directly and asked for- And you didn't know it was Conrad Hilton when you first met him.
Guest 9:Oh, I called that shit though.
Guest 9:You did?
Guest 9:I did.
Guest 9:How the hell did you know that?
Guest 9:Because I went to, there was a line that the guy dropped.
Guest 9:He said, where are you from?
Guest 9:He said, I'm from San Antonio, New Mexico.
Guest 9:And I thought, was that a flub?
Guest 9:Right.
Guest 9:Did he mean to say Texas?
Guest 9:I've never heard of San Antonio, New Mexico.
Guest 9:Okay.
Guest 9:And so, or, you know, I thought maybe meant to say Santa Fe.
Guest 9:And I went and looked it up online and it's this town in New Mexico that has like a population of like 11,000 people.
Marc:And he's the most famous guy from there.
Guest 9:Exactly.
Marc:That's so funny.
Marc:Let me just paint a picture for the people listening.
Marc:Matthew, of Mark and Matthew fame, is sitting here in the room knowing that we're going to talk about this and knowing that he has not watched any of it, but also thinking that he's going to begin watching it with his fingers in his ears.
Guest 4:You told me you weren't going to spoil it.
Marc:I don't think that's a spoiler.
Marc:Yeah, but to you, everything is spoiling.
Marc:It was on TV last night.
Marc:Don't tell me what time it's on.
Guest 4:Don't tell me what time it's on.
Guest 4:Look how excited Brendan was about guessing that thing.
Guest 4:That's the kind of joy I want to have.
Guest 4:Well, then get out.
Guest 4:Get out.
Guest 4:All right.
Guest 4:Call me when you're ready.
Guest 5:My big thing is... So am I supposed to now wonder what Paris Hilton thinks of Mad Men, by the way?
Marc:Wait, wait, wait.
Marc:Let's not go that direction.
Marc:What I want to try to figure out on some level is why... I mean, the show, they're meticulous in capturing the time.
Marc:What is it, 1968 maybe?
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:Right now they're in 63.
Marc:So it's way before the Vietnam War.
Marc:So it's just starting to escalate.
Guest 9:It's just starting because there was those draft dodgers in the last episode.
Marc:But it's also tapping into that whole idea of that kind of caddish cool, that time was very swinging and very beautiful and all the furniture looked great and the hairstyles were great and men were men and women had, there were gender roles and everything else.
Marc:But I think at the core of this, the thing that makes Draper so insanely intriguing is that here he is, this advertising genius that completely invented himself
Marc:That invented his entire personality.
Marc:You're not sure where he comes from until like, what, the second season, right?
Marc:And it turns out that- He's still not even that clear.
Marc:Right, and then he doesn't even have his real name.
Marc:And then there's, Anne Rand is discussed in one of the episodes.
Marc:And that there's this whole idea that this guy could manufacture an entire identity for himself.
Marc:That is so compelling and then create these advertising that he's also a genius at manufacturing image for other places.
Marc:Now, I'm getting all deep and weird about it, but there's something about like you can't just dismiss him as just a guy's guy because he's got so much mystique and so much weird shit.
Marc:And some of it is even like questionable.
Guest 9:Well, I also think because he invented himself out of whole cloth, it goes back to that scene from this past weekend's episode that I was referring to where he told this copy editor, Peggy, that she couldn't have this job on the account.
Guest 9:She couldn't have the raise because all she was doing was wanting...
Guest 9:More and more and more.
Guest 9:And he finally said to her, look, you were my secretary.
Guest 9:You have an office now.
Guest 9:You have a job that guys in this building would kill to have.
Guest 9:And you are just still asking me for more and more.
Guest 9:You're good.
Guest 9:Get better and stop asking for things.
Guest 9:And I literally want to spring up out of my couch and start applauding.
Guest 9:I want to be telling that to people every day on the street.
Guest 9:And he had to invent himself from the ground up.
Guest 9:And he never asked for anything.
Guest 9:He decided when he came back from the Korean War that he was going to be an entirely different person.
Guest 9:And in fact, at the end of this episode, his boss winds up holding that over his head.
Guest 9:Right.
Marc:That's the interesting thing.
Marc:To blackmail it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Leveraging secrets.
Marc:And his boss knows his real identity and he used that.
Marc:But Don Draper, the relationships he has with Peggy and with now with the art director who he caught in that homosexual encounter that he actually has a deeper sort of weird understanding with the people that have the deeper secrets that he has to keep.
Marc:You know, Peggy with the baby and then the art director with the gay thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that, you know, there's a respect there.
Marc:And that makes him sort of like this.
Marc:He has this weird integrity based on the fact that he's got all these secrets.
Guest 9:Well, you start to learn that they that that integrity informs his cop is ad writing and the ads he comes up with.
Guest 9:Because if you remember, he caught that that gay guy.
Guest 9:you know in flagrante during uh the trip to london fog yeah right there was a fire drill yeah and the ad that then he made then he made and he got that guy to sign off on about the raincoats was uh you know some kind of art about the raincoat and a woman covering herself up with one and that the ad line was limit your exposure
Guest 9:And so he not only got it in the ad and made this great ad for London Fog, but it was also a message to this art director, like, you have to watch yourself in this business or you're done.
Guest 9:Brendan goes deep.
Guest 9:Yeah, it's good.
Marc:That was heavy, man.
Guest 5:It was that episode.
Guest 5:I was like, wow, this guy, Don Draper, is probably worse than Tony Soprano ever was.
Marc:On a psychological level, because he can play anybody.
Guest 5:Just throw away your family, turn your back on them.
Guest 5:He went to California.
Guest 5:We didn't even know if he was going to come back.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The existential sort of like he has no loyalty to anything but this constant invention of himself.
Guest 5:That's why this past episode, I was thinking, you know what?
Guest 5:Maybe he's just going to bounce.
Guest 5:Maybe he's going to go with the Hiltons and go and leave.
Marc:Yeah, and they set this up early on the series when he was having sex with the Bohemian girl.
Marc:Remember with the reefer smokers?
Guest 5:Right.
Marc:He always ends up in odd situations.
Marc:And then he got rolled the other night.
Marc:That was pretty good.
Marc:I didn't see that coming.
Guest 5:And by the way, by the way, and getting back to Don Draper being, you know, oh, he hasn't learned anything.
Guest 5:It's not Don Draper's fault.
Guest 5:He's, you know, he's a guy and women want him and they flirt with him and it just happened.
Marc:That I think is the thing that makes it like we were talking before we got on the mic about how it's not like the Sopranos in the sense of who's going to get whacked in this weird bloody menace.
Marc:But there's something about the veneer of that time, which is really about the time where everything starts to change culturally.
Marc:I mean, in like come three years from where they are now, the entire culture is going to turn upside down.
Marc:He sort of got a taste of it with the the Admiral campaign when they wanted to sell it to blacks.
Marc:But they were like, maybe black TVs.
Marc:Right.
Guest 9:They learned which they learned that that Admiral TVs were selling big in cities with large.
Marc:And the pitch of the guy was like, we should market to blacks.
Marc:And then Admiral says, maybe blacks are buying it because they want to be like white people.
Guest 9:Right.
Guest 9:And the reality was they just didn't want to become the black TV because this is still pre-civil rights era.
Guest 9:And that led to a great scene where that guy who was managing that account, who is ostensibly the shitheel of the show, but was right in that situation, was doing something he thought was virtuous by trying to break through to a minority community.
Guest 9:Break the race fund, yeah.
Guest 9:He gets dragged into the office by the bosses and they dress him down like, what the hell did you think you were doing turning that into a black TV?
Guest 9:And he says, I thought I was doing the right thing.
Guest 9:And one of the partners of the company did a great line.
Guest 9:He was like, do you realize that half of our business comes down to I don't like that guy?
Guest 9:Yeah.
Guest 9:And you're like, that's most business everywhere.
Guest 9:I've been fired for that reason several times.
Guest 9:Right.
Guest 9:So it's already become incredibly popular.
Guest 9:Why do you think it's so popular?
Marc:Well, I think that the glamour of it and this sort of... Retro is cool.
Marc:Retro, but also that because it's right at the breaking point of culture and there's all this sex and all this darkness that is bursting out of the seams of this thing.
Marc:And every once in a while it does burst out.
Marc:But I think that people buy the protocol, the gender stereotypes and the roles that everyone has and they get it.
Marc:And when it starts to kind of start to buckle or something happens completely surprising for those roles and for that time, you're like, whoa.
Marc:And you kind of get the feeling that that this is all new for the culture and for the people that are involved.
Marc:And I think it's very compelling.
Guest 5:I think it's like a David Lynch sort of thing where David Lynch took the macabre and the horror of things that don't normally happen.
Guest 5:Yeah, suburbia.
Guest 5:And put it into a place and just see what happens.
Marc:But also it just captures that you really get what the social norms are.
Marc:And you get that almost like –
Marc:And you read about this, too, about that era, that all this other stuff is just percolating over this.
Marc:I guess it's not Victorian, but there were definitely social norms that were respected.
Marc:The housewife model, the working guy model, how people are supposed to behave in the office, race relations.
Marc:And you can feel that stuff is about to blow open.
Marc:And in all the characters, it sort of is in certain ways.
Guest 5:Right.
Guest 5:But there are also social norms that seem just comical, like the kids mixing a drink, the kid having some dry cleaning plastic over their heads, like stuff that in today's mind you'd be like, what the fuck are you doing?
Guest 5:Right.
Marc:And also in my mind, I mean, I was born in 1963, so there were still remnants of that somewhere in my memory.
Guest 5:Right.
Marc:Like, you know, that stuff doesn't look that unfamiliar to me.
Marc:Like my grandparents' house, they had a bar, you know, in the living room that had the bottle.
Marc:You know, it just, it was there.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That era was something that my grandparents went through and certainly my parents to some degree, though they were a little younger than that.
Marc:But it's familiar to me in the pictures of my family.
Guest 9:Right.
Guest 9:See, this is cool because I've thought since I've started enjoying the show that there are three reasons that it's popular and that it's enjoyable.
Guest 9:And you guys have mentioned two.
Guest 9:The era, the atmosphere.
Guest 9:But the third thing, which I think is probably the most important, is that it is an honest depiction of work.
Guest 9:of office work, of jobs, of people having to struggle in a job, of learning how the sausage is made.
Guest 9:You get this backstage peek at an industry that's kind of cloaked in mystery most of the time.
Marc:And also an industry that has infused itself into everything.
Marc:You know, advertising is really the most important industry in the world, unfortunately.
Marc:And what you're seeing here is the roots of that.
Marc:I mean, everything is about publicity.
Marc:Everything is about self-branding.
Marc:Everything is about advertising.
Marc:And this is sort of the crucible of that.
Marc:This is where advertising became modern advertising.
Guest 9:Right.
Guest 9:And, you know, if you watch a show like, say, The Office, which is set in an office, chances are you're not going to find, because it's a situation comedy, it's written in a 20-minute script to try to get comic beats out.
Guest 9:It's not entirely relatable to your given life, despite the fact that they're sitting in cubicles and they're, you know, having mundane things occur to them.
Guest 9:This thing, because so much of what happens on screen is subtext,
Guest 9:is not spoken, is like little office battles that go on psychologically and warfare that happens from cubicle to cubicle.
Guest 9:That's happening to every single person at any job at any given time.
Marc:And now, if anything, the roles were so clearly defined in this.
Marc:There's a romance to that workplace that I think you'd be...
Marc:it would be hard to find now.
Marc:That the romance of roles in office politics and territory and everything else, I don't think you have that anymore.
Guest 9:Alright, should we let Matthew come back in?
Marc:Yes.
Guest 9:Matthew!
Guest 9:Hey, Matthew, you can come back in.
Marc:And then they all die in the last episode.
Marc:What?
Marc:I'm sorry, is that a spoiler?
Marc:I'm sorry, I thought you were going to come in.
Marc:Oh, damn.
Thank you.
Guest 4:I just wanted to say thank you, Mark.
Guest 4:I just wanted to express some gratitude for you and to you for doing this.
Guest 4:Does that make you feel uncomfortable?
Marc:No, I can handle it.
Guest 4:I can take it.
Guest 4:Can I just look at you and say, glad to be here, glad to be doing this?
Marc:And I want to share some email with you.
Guest 4:Oh, really?
Guest 4:Yeah, about you, since you're being so open.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:This is from Chuck on Facebook from one of the last episodes we did.
Marc:Tell Matthew that he's thinking of the observer effect, not the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They are related, but not the same.
Marc:The Heisenberg uncertainty principle can be considered a kind of observer effect, but the way he's using it, he's talking about the observer effect.
Guest 4:I knew I was off somehow.
Guest 4:I knew it was a popular misconception.
Marc:I just thought that since you were open, I knew you could handle that criticism without being defensive.
Guest 4:No, I'm not defensive.
Marc:Because you kind of do that know-it-all thing.
Marc:Like, you know, I know everything.
Marc:I'm Matthew.
Guest 4:No, that's just how I am, Mark.
Guest 4:You project that onto me because you feel inferior.
Marc:No, you've corrected me many times.
Guest 4:Only when you're wrong.
Guest 4:yeah you were wrong I just didn't know either of these things to tell you you were wrong I believe if you play the tape back you'll hear that I sort of equivocated you know I sort of said so you admitted that you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about well if you read that email it says that it's a kind the observer effect is related tell me what the observer effect is Matthew
Guest 4:Anything that you observe is changed by the fact that you observed it.
Marc:All right, now tell me what the Heisenberg principle is.
Guest 4:You can't know the position and the speed of a particle at the same time.
Guest 4:It's an electron cloud.
Guest 4:You ever take that kind of chemistry in high school?
Marc:Now tell me why I should fucking give a shit.
Guest 4:Well, it could only help you to expand your horizon and give yourself another sort of metaphor for what life in the world is, or not.
Guest 4:You don't have to.
Marc:So I'm having an observer effect right now listening to you.
Marc:No.
Marc:Well, I think that we now have proof of something else, Matthew.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Proof?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Of the Mark and Matthew effect.
Marc:Do you know what that is?
Guest 4:No.
Marc:That is where I eventually get exhausted with your persistent need to prove yourself right.
Marc:And even though I know in my heart that I'm smarter than you, I'll indulge it.
Guest 4:Do you know what Matthew's general theory of barren relativity is?
Guest 4:No, it's take whatever Mark says about you and realize that it's just him projecting.
Guest 4:And suddenly you have an insight into what Mark actually is all about.
Marc:You know, it's hilarious about that.
Marc:I'm making you up right now.
Yeah.
Marc:All right, folks, that's our show.
Marc:I'd like to thank my guest, Jim Gaffigan, and the surprise appearance of his wife, Jeannie.
Marc:I like her.
Marc:I've always liked her to the point where it gets awkward with Jim.
Marc:I don't know if he's joking or not, but it's awkward.
Marc:I want to thank K-Lo.
Marc:Haven't seen him in a while.
Marc:Chris Lopresto.
Marc:Of course, Brendan McDonald on the board.
Marc:My friend Matthew, who, as always, is irritating but endearing.
Marc:And I just want to remind you people that I will be at the Punchline in San Francisco October 8th, 9th, and 10th, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, if those dates match up.
Marc:I'm never going to sleep.
Marc:I'm never going to sleep.
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