Episode 896 - David Oyelowo
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:What the fuck is happening?
Marc:Huh?
Marc:How?
Marc:Come on.
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:WTF?
Marc:Today on the show, David, a yellow.
Marc:Oh,
Marc:I want to get that out right away because I don't know if I'm going to pronounce it right throughout the rest of the broadcast.
Marc:I just watched him pronounce it on a bit of video to make sure I knew how to pronounce it.
Marc:Oyelowo.
Marc:David.
Marc:A yellow-o.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:So he's on the show.
Marc:I'm going to be talking to him.
Marc:We had a very lively conversation.
Marc:He's a talker.
Marc:He's a great guy.
Marc:And we're going to be talking about his new movie, Gringo, a bit.
Marc:But mostly about his life and about where he comes from and the roles.
Marc:And it was good.
Marc:I've been talking to a lot of actors lately.
Marc:What can I tell you?
Marc:Huh?
Marc:And because of, as you know, because I've done a little acting myself recently, it's always helpful, actually, to talk to actors.
Marc:It helps me.
Marc:You have to indulge me in my acting classes here on the air.
Marc:So what is happening, people?
Marc:Oh, come on.
Marc:I've been so good about turning my fucking phone off.
Marc:Did you guys hear that?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Hold on.
Marc:It's my realtor.
Marc:My realtor is coming over.
Marc:It's happening.
Marc:Though the garage is not empty yet.
Marc:I'm still in denial or something.
Marc:I've done nothing in here.
Marc:It hasn't happened yet.
Marc:But the plan is I'm going to start recording in the new space.
Marc:Um...
Marc:Maybe next week.
Marc:I mean, that's sort of the plan.
Marc:If I have a realtor coming over and I'm about to do paperwork and sell this house, I guess I got to get out of here.
Marc:I got to pack it up.
Marc:Been looking at these books, man.
Marc:Been looking at these books.
Marc:I'm just like, every time I look at them, I can see the ones that are going, but I can see the ones that are staying, and I'm very excited to get them organized.
Marc:I think that's why I moved.
Marc:It's just an excuse to get organized.
Marc:And then the other house is bigger.
Marc:And I still I've stalled on all levels here in this transition process.
Marc:But I got to get out.
Marc:I got to get on with it, folks.
Marc:I have to get on with it.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Come on.
Marc:Here, I want to read an email to you because I thought it was sweet.
Marc:I thought it was sweet.
Marc:David Oyelowo is going to be here soon.
Marc:Oyelowo.
Marc:I'm getting it.
Marc:I'm nailing it.
Marc:I think I'm nailing it.
Marc:Okay, subject line, your guitar playing.
Marc:Hi, Mark.
Marc:I just wanted to send a quick email to say thanks for the guitar playing you do at the end of most episodes.
Marc:I have a 17-month-old, and we recently had him evaluated to see if he is delayed in certain ways.
Marc:It turns out he is delayed in speech, which isn't the biggest deal as long as we address it now.
Marc:But they were a little worried that he could be possibly delayed in other areas.
Marc:One of the things we were told to look for was to see if he likes to dance to music.
Marc:I've been trying everything, kids music, nursery rhymes, classic rock, jazz, et cetera, to no avail.
Marc:Well, we were finishing up lunch the other day while listening to your podcast in the background, and he started dancing to your guitar playing.
Marc:That touches me.
Marc:I replayed you playing several times and he danced to it every single time.
Marc:Now my husband and I go back through old episodes and fast forward to the end so baby Henry can dance.
Marc:Apparently your guitar playing is the only thing that makes him want to move.
Marc:Well, that is a testament to my expression and I appreciate that.
Marc:And then she says, I just wanted to say thanks and I just love your show so much.
Marc:Thank you for everything.
Marc:That's from Maureen.
Marc:Well, thank you, Maureen.
Marc:I'm glad I helped out with the kid.
Marc:I'm glad that my guitar playing has those raw feelings.
Marc:I'm glad I'm tapping into something so primal and young.
Marc:It makes me happy.
Marc:I love that email.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:I'm the only thing.
Marc:My guitar playing is making that kid dance.
Marc:He gets through.
Marc:It gets through to that kid.
Marc:That is so nice.
Marc:So sweet.
Marc:Oyelowo.
Marc:David Oyelowo.
Marc:I think I am I holding it?
Marc:Is it staying?
Marc:Is it right?
Marc:Is it true?
Marc:Is it?
Marc:Is it happening?
Marc:So, folks, I don't know where you're listening.
Marc:I don't know what you're up to, but I would like to promote my Europe dates if I could.
Marc:I'm going to go to my website right now, and I'm going to look at those dates specifically.
Marc:I'm going to go to wtfpod.com, and I'm going to go to tour, and I'm going to push tour, and I'm going to see, oh, the Ice House.
Marc:I'll be there Sunday, this Sunday again, 7 and 9.
Marc:I do not know if there are tickets for that.
Marc:That's here in Pasadena.
Marc:April 16th, Royal Festival Hall in London.
Marc:April 19th, China Theatern.
Marc:Stockholm, Sweden.
Marc:April 22nd.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Oslo, Norway.
Marc:April 23rd, Royal Theater, Royal Theater Carre, Amsterdam in the Netherlands, and April 26th at Vicar Street in Dublin, Ireland.
Marc:The shows at the Ice House were very good last weekend.
Marc:I riffed out some stuff, worked out some things, despite my insanity and my, whatever, nervousness or my beating myself up or whatever.
Marc:We had great shows, and I want to work through some more stuff or tighten up some stuff, and
Marc:A lot of new stuff will be happening.
Marc:Most of it was new, to be honest with you.
Marc:I was sort of surprised, but that's happening at the Ice House this Sunday.
Marc:Oyelowo, huh?
Marc:Let's just do that now.
Marc:Can we just get on with it?
Marc:We can, right?
Marc:I've chit-chatted enough, haven't I?
Marc:So David Oyelowo, he's got a new movie, Gringo.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:which is in theaters tomorrow, March 9th.
Marc:And he's been in a lot of movies.
Marc:Selma, notably.
Marc:But it was great to talk to him about his life, where he comes from, who he is, and his journey as an actor and a human.
Marc:And it was fun because he likes to talk.
Marc:And that's always good for me.
Marc:It's good when you can engage, you know, and he's a, what am I just going to sit here?
Marc:I don't need to burn any more time.
Marc:Let's talk to David Oyelowo right now.
Marc:You live out there in the valley, huh?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I do, yeah, in Tarzana.
Marc:How long have you lived out there?
Guest:With my wife and four kids.
Marc:Four kids?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Four.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:On purpose, four.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I have three boys and a girl.
Marc:Was the girl the last one?
Guest:She was.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Is that what you were trying for?
Marc:You know what?
Guest:I was happy with three boys, and we just felt... We just knew it was going to be a girl.
Marc:You did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so we got our Zoe.
Marc:She's going to be a tough girl.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:The amazing thing, though, is that she has three brothers, and she's a girly girl.
Guest:She's not... Overcompensating?
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:A lot of pink.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A lot of Barbies in the house.
Guest:But no, she's very, very lovely.
Guest:But yeah, The Valley.
Guest:We started in Studio City when we first moved here.
Marc:How long have you been here?
Guest:Nearly 11 years.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:11 years in May.
Guest:So we went Studio City, Sherman Oaks, Tarzana.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Yeah, we just kept on having children.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Finding the bigger space.
Marc:Yeah, more space.
Marc:Pretty soon you're just going to be on the edge of the desert.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You're going to have the entire Death Valley.
Marc:Well, I think we're kind of good now.
Guest:I think 4 is where we're going to, we've done our bit for humanity.
Marc:And you like it out there?
Marc:I mean, I have no sense of Tarzana.
Marc:Zero.
Guest:It's very nice.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It is very, very nice.
Guest:Lots of space and you get away from the craziness.
Marc:And you're on this side.
Marc:So this wasn't that bad a drive, right?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:Just come over on the highway.
Marc:You don't have to go over any mountains.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So the last time I saw you, oddly, well, outside of watching that movie last night was I saw the production of Othello in New York City.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I went and saw you do that.
Marc:And I have to credit you.
Marc:It was a great job you did as a fellow.
Marc:But I've had many great Shakespearean actors in here.
Marc:Well, two.
Marc:I've had McKellen in here and Patrick Stewart in here.
Marc:And McKellen sat there.
Marc:And I think he's a sir, right?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So he sat there.
Marc:Because I have a hard time with Shakespeare.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Paying attention.
Marc:You're not alone.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:But it's really about, because people say what great stories they are, and I'm like, I can't get past the language.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It's dense.
Marc:But my compliment to you is, what I was saying is McKellen did a monologue for me right there.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:And it kind of went in.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:It was very affecting.
Marc:It had an effect on me.
Marc:But I followed Othello because of your production better than I have any Shakespeare.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:That's good.
Marc:Yeah, it's good.
Marc:Well, they made it a contemporary setting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was a barracks.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And the space was small.
Guest:Yeah, and it wasn't precious.
Guest:Our director, Sam Gold, I think, did a great thing of making it feel incredibly visceral and pacey and in your face.
Guest:And it was 200 people in that tinderbox of a theater.
Guest:So there was no escape.
Marc:It was really a tinderbox.
Marc:There were moments where you're like, I hope there's no fire.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was literally dry wood.
Guest:How are we going to get out of here?
Marc:There's plywood everywhere.
Guest:Yeah, exactly right.
Guest:No, I loved doing that production.
Guest:Daniel Craig, who played Iago in that production, we literally made a pact that every night we would try and kill each other.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Just to see if we could actually just end on the stage.
Marc:Without actually killing each other.
Guest:Without, preferably not actually doing it, but to come darn near to doing it.
Marc:Yeah, it's weird that, like, I was very involved in it, and I enjoyed the acting and the feeling and the excitement and the intensity and the violence of it, but I'm not sure I could tell you what it's about.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like, if you ask me, what is the storyline of Othello, I would be like, it's complicated.
Guest:It is complicated, though.
Guest:It is complicated.
Guest:But did you feel the byproduct of jealousy?
Marc:Yes, yes.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And what the diseased mind or the diseasing of the mind that comes with jealousy.
Marc:And then the people feeding the jealousy.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Oh, you got the play mind.
Marc:Oh, yeah, no, no.
Guest:You've completely got the plot.
Marc:Sure, I've got the sort of universal kind of humanity of it.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Are you talking plot now?
Marc:Yeah, plot.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Marc:Who cares about the plot?
Guest:Did you feel, Mark?
Marc:Did we make you feel?
Marc:I felt.
Guest:That's all we needed to do.
Marc:I felt like you were in trouble.
Marc:I was in deep trouble, deathly trouble.
Marc:What's that guy's name?
Marc:Sam Gold?
Marc:He directed it?
Marc:Sam Gold, yeah.
Marc:He's directed other things too, right?
Marc:I feel like I know him.
Guest:Fun Home he did as well.
Guest:He just did Hamlet with Oscar Isaac.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Oscar Isaac.
Marc:You worked with that guy in a movie.
Guest:Yeah, most violent.
Marc:I didn't know what that movie was about either.
Marc:You didn't?
Marc:Not really.
Marc:But did it make you feel, Mark?
Marc:It did.
Guest:It did.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:And I'm no dummy.
Marc:I'm no dummy.
Marc:You know, but the movie had sort of a pace to it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where, you know, I'm sort of like, wait, what is, am I missing something?
Marc:Right.
Marc:It had that kind of like intensity.
Guest:It was a slow, it was a slow burn.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I guess that's a nice way of putting it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Everyone looked good.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Jessica Chastain knows how to wear a coat.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And fake nails.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's an amazing actress, I think.
Marc:Yeah, I just saw her in that movie.
Marc:Molly's Game?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:She is really good.
Guest:She's fantastic.
Marc:That's a big part, that Molly's Game.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And to do his sort of patter, it's tricky to make Sorkin sound normal.
Guest:She has range for days.
Marc:You too.
Marc:I watched Gringo last night.
Marc:You're kind of the guy who gets beat up.
Guest:You're the sad sack.
Guest:I have a lot of bruises given to me in that film.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That guy, Egerton, he's good too.
Guest:Yeah, it's fantastic.
Guest:It's a great cast.
Marc:It really is.
Guest:Charlize Theron and Joel Edgerton, Amanda Seyfried, Tandy Newton, Shalter Copley, Harry Treadway.
Guest:I mean, you know, we had a great time.
Marc:It's one of those movies, though, that's driven by, after a certain point, annoying coincidences.
LAUGHTER
Guest:Well, but that's the thing about when we went to do the film, we thought, how do you make these absurd situations feel plausible?
Guest:And you have to kind of play them for real.
Guest:There's no getting away from the fact that it's a caper and this guy's thrown into the most unbelievable circumstance.
Guest:But you and I both know, Mark, that life is stranger than fiction.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yes, certainly it is.
Marc:And if that was real life, there'd be real problems.
Marc:But on some level, yes, there are coincidences in life, but not as consistently.
Marc:You know where there are lots of coincidences?
Guest:Shakespeare.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Marc:He did all right.
Marc:Yeah, because there was so much words between them.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Very lengthy things.
Marc:You don't even remember that it's a coincidence because you're sort of like, oh, my God.
Marc:Oh, that's...
Guest:I'm so glad you sat through, Othello.
Guest:I'm now realizing it was kind of a miracle that you were still there after three and a half hours.
Marc:I'm not a lowbrow guy.
Marc:I didn't accuse you of that, Mark.
Marc:But I'm hard on myself.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm hard on myself about Shakespeare.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Because I seem to have committed to this attitude about it.
Marc:Whereas opposed to if I really sat down and said, okay, I'm going to really take it in.
Marc:I'm going to take a course.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think you suffer from low self-esteem when it comes to Shakespeare.
Guest:That's what I'm feeling.
Marc:Well, thank God.
Marc:I think I'm fixed now.
Marc:For years, I was wondering what my fundamental core issue was.
Marc:And the answer was... You got it.
Marc:There it is.
Marc:I want to thank you for helping me out.
Marc:And I guess we're done.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:It was so nice seeing you.
Marc:See you at my hamlet.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Where I'll feel much better about Shakespeare.
Marc:But this movie, we might just start with that because it's the newest movie.
Marc:But this was sort of a comedic, a little lighter.
Marc:Weird because it's not light, but it is a comedy kind of, isn't it?
Guest:Yeah, it's an action comedy.
Guest:It doesn't take itself seriously.
Guest:And I was really looking to do something other than...
Marc:You don't want to carry the weight of the history of black culture on your shoulder?
Guest:Yeah, I didn't want the weight of black life on my shoulders again.
Guest:So I decided to play a Nigerian immigrant who believes in the American dream.
Guest:That dummy.
Guest:And get so beaten up.
Guest:Get so beaten up for it.
Guest:So yes.
Marc:And that part was, did he have you in mind or you don't know?
Marc:Or were you just cast in that?
Guest:No, it wasn't race specific.
Guest:In fact, the actors they were thinking of were very much sort of white comedic actors.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like the regular guys?
Guest:The regular guys.
Guest:You could reel them off and I'll nod if you get them right.
Guest:Steve Carell?
Guest:No.
Guest:He's too high.
Guest:He's too big.
Guest:He's too big.
Guest:What are you saying, Mark?
Guest:What are you saying?
Guest:That it could only be a smaller white comedic actor who I stole the part from?
Guest:Not smaller.
Guest:I can get parts from Steve Carell.
Guest:I believe you.
Guest:You watch me.
Guest:I'm going to text you.
Guest:Ha!
Guest:I'm literally now going to find out every job Steve Carell is up for.
Marc:It just seems like he's not going to do... You're digging this ditch.
Guest:I know.
Guest:You're digging this ditch.
Marc:But I don't think we should load it up.
Marc:I couldn't remember any... I think Will Ferrell's pretty hot.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:He was up for it?
Guest:I think he was one of the people they had in mind.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You know, a Seth Rogen type, a Jason Bateman type.
Marc:Oh, all right.
Guest:I put them in the Steve Carell echelons.
Marc:Yeah, I would too.
Marc:I think that Steve, now we're going to have a conversation about this because I'm still not willing to.
Marc:You're trying to dig yourself out and I admire that.
Marc:I'm going to backpedal a little bit.
Marc:But it would have been interesting to see them portray a Nigerian immigrant, which I would have liked to have seen.
Marc:Now that I would like to see.
Marc:See, like, cause that's real, that's real risque comedy to have a Steve Carell play a Nigerian immigrant.
Marc:Well, you know what I would really like to see?
Marc:What?
Marc:The backlash.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Off of that.
Marc:For him to play the one white Nigerian immigrant in all cinema history.
Marc:Can you imagine?
Guest:I think Robert Downey Jr.
Guest:in Tropic Thunder was the last one to just get under the wire before the doors came slamming shut.
Guest:But he took flack for that.
Guest:He took flak, but the movie didn't tank, and it's a great movie, and he's great in it.
Guest:I think it's a very smart movie.
Guest:Yeah, and he's really funny in it, but I don't think that you could make that movie now.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I think they would get butchered.
Guest:What do you think happened exactly?
Guest:Well, I think outside of Trump.
Guest:I mean, it's before.
Guest:Oh, yeah, it was before Trump.
Guest:I think, you know, when it comes to representation in the movie and TV industry generally, I think it just came to the point whereby people now have enough of a voice where they can say, you know what?
Guest:It's not OK to whitewash every story, everything.
Guest:And then to sort of white savior every movie where you could have had the opportunity to have someone who drives the narrative and is the hero of the piece.
Guest:And then yet again, it's going to be name an actor.
Guest:I want you to dig another hole.
Marc:uh ryan gosling exactly yeah you know we we no one needs that enough enough ryan gosling enough of saving the day i could take for all humanity do you think do you think i couldn't take ryan gosling's i'm sure you could okay i'm sure how are you i think i've won you over mark no no i i'm i'm i'm on board
Marc:Look, I, you know, I, I want to, I, and I think that a lot of it has to do with not just voice, but outlets too.
Marc:You know, like that, that everything has become the movie, the media industry itself has become diversified just by nature of outlets.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So like, why not more parts for everybody?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:There's more, no, it's absolutely true.
Marc:There's more room to play.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And actually, those big movies that everybody was complaining about, on some level, it's like, who gives a fuck about the big movies anyways?
Marc:Right.
Marc:I mean, I only see them if they come as screeners, usually.
Marc:If it's a huge movie.
Marc:Oh, you philistine.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I'm the worst.
Marc:Really?
Marc:No.
Marc:Did you see Dunkirk in a theater?
Marc:I didn't.
Oh, my.
Marc:But I would have.
Marc:If what?
Marc:I was busy.
Marc:If you weren't busy.
Marc:Yeah, you're right.
Marc:I've gotten lazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've gotten lazy.
Marc:I watched yours, the one last night on it.
Marc:I saw Selma in the theater.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was the last one?
Marc:I saw that Sofia Coppola movie in a theater, the last one, the beguiled I saw in the theater.
Marc:I saw... Did you like it?
Marc:I did like it, but I did watch the original too, and I'm not sure why she made certain choices.
Marc:I mean, the original was pretty horrifying and menacing, but I thought hers was very beautiful and focused, and I liked it.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I have seen other ones in the theater.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:When was the last movie you saw in the theater?
Guest:I went to see Den of Thieves in the theater.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:Three days ago.
Guest:Gerard Butler action movie.
Marc:How was it?
Marc:You like action movies?
Guest:I do like action movies.
Guest:And I thought it was okay.
Guest:My friend Mo McCray is in it.
Guest:And he's fantastic in it.
Guest:And yeah, and STX who distributed or who's distributing our film Gringo distributed it.
Marc:Well, who directed Gringo?
Marc:He was like a stunt guy, right?
Guest:Yeah, Nash Edgerton.
Guest:um directed it and yeah he he he was a stunt guy for years and then did these shorts amazing shorts one called spider yeah which is on youtube anyone can go watch it and another one called bear um and then he also did a feature film called the square which is really really fantastic yeah he has great great taste and he's one of those guys who he's good with action but he's not looking to just jam it in any and every movie he does it's sort of got to move the story along and yeah he's a great director
Marc:Yeah, there were some moments in that movie, Gringo, where you're like, oh, what's going to happen?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Something exciting happens.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I kind of want to spoil anything.
Guest:I know.
Guest:There's a lot.
Guest:It's a hard movie to talk about without spoiling it.
Marc:Well, there's all these big things that happen.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And not great.
Marc:There's a lot of bad people in it.
Marc:A lot of bad people who pay.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That's a mark of Nash Edgerton's work.
Guest:Any of his work you see, he's very good with hubris.
Marc:You reap what you sow.
Guest:And people really reap what they sow in this one.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So let's go back now to Shakespeare and to the humble beginnings of you as a human.
Marc:I can't believe you've been in Hollywood for 10 years.
Guest:I have now, yeah.
Guest:May of 07.
Marc:From Britain you moved?
Guest:Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Marc:And you're happy about it?
Guest:I love it here.
Guest:People are so surprised when you say you like living in LA.
Guest:I really, really love living in LA.
Marc:Some people love it.
Marc:People love Southern California.
Marc:Why do you think it costs so much to live here?
Marc:I'm very clear that people love it.
Marc:It's show business that people are kind of like, ugh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But well, I live out away from all the craziness.
Marc:Off the grid in Tarzana.
Guest:It literally is might as well be Beirut.
Guest:Let's face it.
Guest:And yeah.
Guest:And, you know, my kids are doing very well here.
Guest:And the weather, of course, goes without saying is lovely.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:Where's your family?
Marc:Are they in England?
Guest:My dad now lives with us.
Guest:Oh, he's here too?
Guest:He's here too.
Guest:My brother lives in Australia.
Guest:I have one brother who still lives in London, but we're all over the place.
Marc:There's three of you?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Three brothers?
Guest:Yeah, three brothers.
Marc:We're in Australia.
Guest:He's on the Gold Coast.
Marc:The other side?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The far side?
Guest:Yeah, the far side.
Marc:Do you visit?
Marc:I haven't been.
Guest:I haven't been.
Marc:It's a long way away, Mark.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I think it's another year there.
Guest:It certainly feels like that when I call him.
Marc:Trump hasn't won the election yet in Australia on the Gold Coast.
Marc:Oh, that sounds nice.
Marc:Well, it's lucky.
Marc:That sounds so nice.
Marc:But how long has he lived there?
Guest:He's been there about eight years.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:And you haven't visited?
Guest:Don't be like that.
Guest:He's come to see me.
Guest:You're right.
Marc:It's bad.
Marc:It's a bad situation.
Marc:It is a long trip.
Marc:It's sort of like, what's there to pull you other than just family?
Marc:It's like, what else am I going to do once I spent the 30 hours on a plane?
Marc:Family should be enough.
Marc:His daughter's there, my niece.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:I should go.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:You're building my case now.
Guest:I'm leaving.
Marc:You're going now?
Marc:You want to get your phone out and make a reservation?
Marc:Can I?
Marc:Yeah, but you can wait.
Marc:You can wait till after.
Marc:I'll wait till after.
Marc:But you grew up entirely in England?
Guest:No, I was born in Oxford, England.
Guest:Then we moved to London when I was very young.
Guest:And then we moved to Nigeria when I was six and lived there till I was 13.
Marc:But your folks were from Nigeria.
Guest:Yeah, exactly right.
Guest:Exactly right.
Marc:So why'd they move?
Guest:Why'd they go back to Nigeria?
Guest:Nigerians are very aspirational.
Guest:And I think a British education is something my dad really aspired to.
Guest:And so he moved.
Guest:Yeah, he went and got it.
Guest:But also my dad's from a royal family in Nigeria and my mom's a commoner.
Guest:And so they kind of had to elope to get married.
Guest:And they did that in the UK instead of in Nigeria.
Marc:So
Marc:Wait, the Nigerian royalty had rules against the commoner situation?
Guest:Well, my mom is also... She's passed away now, but she was Igbo, and my dad is Yoruba.
Guest:These are two different... These are two different tribes.
Marc:Both Nigerian.
Guest:Both Nigerian.
Guest:And there was a real schism between the Yoruba and the Igbo tribe.
Guest:Anyone who knows about the Biafran War will know that... I feel like I should know.
Guest:Well, there's a lot I'm learning that you should know that you don't, Mark, but that's okay.
Marc:But you're just learning it?
Guest:It's my history.
Guest:I should know it.
Marc:I know, but when did you learn it?
Guest:I learned it because it's, you know... But recently?
Guest:Recently?
Guest:No!
Guest:What, about the Biafran War and my parents?
Guest:I've known them a while.
Marc:Okay, good, good.
Marc:I'm just checking.
Marc:I'm just checking.
Marc:You're right.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:My dad, there are things that I'm only just finding out.
Marc:Is that true?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's very kind of laid back in terms of our history.
Guest:Because we grew up in the UK and now we're here in America, I'll ask things about my uncle.
Guest:For instance, I'll say, how many siblings did you have, Daddy?
Guest:I think...
Guest:Was it eight or seven?
Guest:Ah, no, nine.
Guest:No.
Guest:I cannot remember.
Guest:I can't tell if his memory is going or it's hiding something.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Maybe there was some shenanigans.
Marc:Well, that's weird when they get older because like if there are secrets, they forget to keep them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, like...
Guest:Oh no, maybe I shouldn't ask.
Marc:I don't know if I want the answers.
Marc:It's weird, dude.
Marc:Like they get old and something will come out and you're like, wait, what?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With who?
Guest:I literally had one of those the other day.
Guest:I was like, so is it seven or eight?
Guest:So anyway.
Marc:Why doesn't he know?
Marc:Was there a couple of different mothers?
Guest:Now you're making me feel like I've got to ask questions.
Guest:No, I don't think there were, but you know what?
Guest:My grandfather was the king of this region.
Guest:Yoruba region?
Guest:Yes, within Yoruba lands, a place called Awe.
Guest:Traditionally, he was allowed to have several wives, but he was the first in his line to become a Christian.
Guest:Don't say it like that, Mark.
Guest:I'm glad that I have just the one.
Marc:Why are you projecting?
Marc:But what I'm saying here is that maybe you should talk to him a little more.
Guest:Oh, you think?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I'm saying like, you know, Christian's good, but doesn't always do the trick.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Your ur was quite loaded.
Guest:That's why I called it.
Marc:Well, I'm just thinking of the old ways, the new ways, and then the secrets, and then, you know, seven, nine.
Marc:You think he was Christian-ish?
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:Look, what do I know?
Marc:I don't want to judge.
Marc:What do I know?
Marc:I'm just saying that I'm basing this all on the seven, nine.
Guest:Yeah, you're probably not wrong, and you're also ruining my childhood.
Marc:But this is things you should know.
Marc:I'm here to help you.
Marc:I mean, we've already helped me a little bit.
Marc:We've helped each other a lot.
Marc:I've been humbled a couple of times within this short conversation.
Marc:I've made a couple of mistakes.
Guest:Well, you led with Shakespeare.
Guest:What did you expect?
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:You went big.
Marc:So, all right, so he's living with you, and he went, okay, so he moved from Nigeria to get the education in Britain, and he met your mother there.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:No, they met, my mom was my uncle's secretary.
Guest:Oh, your father's brother?
Guest:My father's brother's secretary.
Guest:So he went to visit his brother, and there was this wonderful lady behind the desk.
Guest:And that was that?
Guest:And that was that.
Marc:And that was history.
Marc:But the royalty of the Yoruba clan or tribe was upset.
Guest:They weren't over the moon about him marrying an Igbo lady.
Guest:These are elders?
Guest:Yeah, they're elders.
Guest:You know, it's that thing when people are feuding families.
Marc:They don't even remember why anymore.
Marc:And it's also modern times.
Marc:Why are you still holding to this?
Guest:Well, yeah, I mean, this was the 60s, 70s, you know, so, and it's just that crazy thing we do.
Guest:Irish, Catholic, Yoruba, Igbo, black, white.
Marc:I guess that's true.
Marc:Human, I think the point we're trying to make.
Guest:Yeah, it's human.
Marc:It's just that, yeah, well, ethnicity, nationality, these things seem to run deeper than you ever imagined.
Yeah.
Guest:It's true, but the best part of us is cutting through that, I find.
Guest:So my parents getting married was a beautiful, unifying thing for two groups of people who would otherwise probably not associate in that way.
Marc:Well, I imagine it would have been different had Christianity not been a part of it.
Guest:Uh, maybe, yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
Guest:You know, my dad grew up a Christian and I guess compassion and looking beyond tribal traditions became something that, you know, he was more open to.
Guest:So you're absolutely right.
Marc:So what did you keep in, what did he keep within the family of these tribal traditions?
Guest:Well, my dad has tribal marks on his face.
Guest:So he has four slashes on his face and he has the word ballet written on his stomach.
Guest:And a tattoo or a scar?
Guest:No, and just cuts, little blade cuts on his stomach.
Guest:And the reason you have that traditionally is so that if you were to die in war, they know to give you a royal burial.
Guest:So, you know, that's one of the things he has.
Guest:But that thankfully stopped with him.
Guest:I think if I had... He was the last guy?
Guest:He was the last in my line.
Guest:I think, you know, eight slashes on my face would have curtailed the acting a little bit.
Marc:Well, it would have limited your roles.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:You wouldn't be so confident about doing Ryan Gosling's part.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I wouldn't be so front-footed about going after his roles.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:You are right.
Guest:I will give you that.
Guest:Front-footed.
Guest:That sounds like a Shakespearean word.
Guest:I just threw it in there.
Guest:I'm just showing off.
Marc:Front-footed.
Marc:I like it.
Marc:See, if you just choose those old words carefully, they have a lot more punch as opposed to strung together with nine other adjectives.
Guest:Well, but that's the thing with Shakespeare.
Guest:His vocabulary is five times the vocabulary we use now.
Guest:I know.
Guest:He invented a lot of words.
Guest:Both of those sentences just made me tired.
Marc:How did you get through Othello?
Guest:I'm phoning Daniel Craig afterwards and saying we did a miraculous thing when Mark came.
Marc:And Rachel Weiss, his wife, was there that night, as was Frances McDormand.
Marc:Do you remember this night?
Guest:Yes, I do remember this night.
Marc:I was there that night sitting behind Frances McDormand going like, that's the back of Frances McDormand's head.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Is that what broke it up for you, the fact that you were staring at Frances McDormand's head?
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:I think that might have kept me awake.
Marc:And whatever Cohen she's married to, she was with.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Is it Ethan or Joel?
Marc:I'm not sure.
Marc:The tall one.
Marc:I'm not sure.
Marc:The tall Cohen.
Marc:The tall Cohen.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I just met her at the thing.
Marc:Were you at the thing the other night?
Marc:What was that?
Guest:The SAG Awards?
Guest:I wasn't at the SAG Awards.
Guest:I was at the PGA Awards the night before.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:But not the SAG Awards.
Marc:Yeah, I met her there.
Marc:And now we kind of know each other.
Guest:Oh, well, that's good.
Marc:It's nice when those people, when you find out they know who you are.
Marc:For me, it's exciting.
Guest:Did you tell her that you stared at the back of her head?
Marc:No, I didn't think that was a good opener.
Marc:I didn't think she'd know me.
Marc:And I introduced myself.
Marc:I was about to introduce myself.
Marc:She's like, I know you.
Marc:You're great on the show you're on.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that was nice.
Marc:But I mean, everyone knows you.
Marc:You were Martin Luther King.
Guest:Well, I'll take it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'll take it.
Guest:She was very nice when she came to see the play.
Guest:That really took me aback.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I bet.
Marc:It's like winning an award, isn't it?
Guest:It is winning an award.
Guest:That's the award you want to win.
Marc:Right.
Marc:When I was at the SAG Awards and she said, I loved your work on GLOW, I'm like, I guess I did win tonight.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Big time.
Marc:Were you up for an award?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:I was up for Best Actor in a Comedy, Male Actor in a Comedy TV.
Guest:Was that for GLOW?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:Bill Macy won.
Marc:No, he had it coming.
Guest:He's aight.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's aight.
Marc:He's been working a long time.
Guest:He has.
Guest:But you are very, very good in that show.
Guest:I mean, you're quite the irreverent.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you're a bit mean.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No filter.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There are moments there where it's sort of like, oof, where you shoot the scene and you got to run up to the girl afterwards and be like,
Marc:Okay, you okay?
Marc:Everybody okay?
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:That's kind of glad to hear because I'm going to throw it in again.
Guest:You're very front-footed with that performance when you're going after those girls.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Well, I think it required that.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It required the front-footedness.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it also required me not finishing scenes going like, that felt good.
Guest:Like I don't...
Marc:I didn't want to necessarily stay in character off stage.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:I would advise you do not do that.
Guest:Oh, my goodness.
Guest:That would be a bad thing.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you go back to Nigeria at what age?
Marc:At six.
Marc:Because I just want to know some things because I have no idea.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:what nigeria is like and now like now we know we've got you come from two tribes yes and and jesus yes and uh there's scarification involved yes there's a royal burial burials happening so when you go back how old are you you're six i'm six and like you were going to prep school in england well
Guest:No, I was going to a very normal school in England, and then I went to a very posh schools in Nigeria.
Guest:Because of the royalty?
Guest:Because, yeah.
Guest:My family had a certain stature, which is probably why we went back as well.
Guest:Things were getting a little tough in England.
Guest:I lived on Oyelowo Street in the family compound and all that cool stuff.
Guest:What, in Nigeria?
Guest:In Nigeria, yeah.
Marc:So what was going on in England?
Guest:To be honest, a lot of racism, you know?
Marc:No.
Guest:My dad had... I know, it's shocking.
Guest:Oh my goodness.
Guest:I know we haven't heard that word in decades.
Guest:No.
Guest:Thought it was over.
Guest:Here in America.
Guest:I know, if only.
Guest:No, he had hot coffee spilt in his face and people would spit at him.
Marc:Just because he was Nigerian?
Guest:Just because he was black, you know, and trying to get ahead for his family and, you know, getting work.
Marc:But Oxford's not like a working class...
Guest:No, we had moved to London.
Guest:We had moved to South London at the age of two or thereabouts.
Guest:And so we moved to Nigeria.
Guest:But then, lo and behold, a very corrupt military government came into power.
Guest:And then it became untenable to live there as well.
Guest:So we moved back to the UK when I was 13.
Marc:See, that fascinates me.
Marc:It fascinates me in the sense that how entitled and naive I am as an American, really.
Marc:I can't speak for all Americans.
Marc:That people, like I talked to Raoul Peck.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Great director.
Marc:Great.
Marc:And a great mind and a real fighter, a real activist guy.
Marc:But where he comes from, in Haiti, you're born into activism.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's your life.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's not sort of like, I'm going to now do this.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's like, it's what you do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the idea of a military dictatorship just happening.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, we're dealing with a wannabe dictator and it's completely disruptive and it's terrifying us.
Marc:We were terrified by our fellow Americans.
Marc:We never knew that there was as many of them as there are that are terrible in a specific way.
Marc:Right.
Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I do.
Marc:It just awoken it.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it woke us up to something different.
Marc:But there's a level of terror here because of the government that I don't know, unless you were a very sort of diligent and active, real lefty, it hasn't been this terrifying in my life.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But the truth of the matter is, as a black person living in America, Yeah.
Guest:you always know and knew those people were there.
Guest:And what is kind of, the silver lining in all of this, for me personally, is that you go, welcome.
Guest:Welcome to our lives.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you for having me, I think.
Marc:So what do we do now?
Guest:I know.
Guest:This is the big question.
Guest:Welcome to the big question, my friend.
Guest:No, you know what?
Guest:It is an interesting thing because even coming from the UK to this country, you have certain preconceptions about what the country is and what the schisms are.
Guest:And it's not until you're here.
Guest:It's not until you're, you know, Raoul is growing up in Haiti that you can speak to the specifics of being in that environment.
Guest:And living here, even in a very trite way, the things I've faced within the entertainment industry by way of prejudice and marginalization, it's very tough to express them without just seeming like you're complaining or whatever, which is why it's been a very liberating thing for me to produce and to sort of take some power back.
Guest:and just to actually find things I want to do and not wait for anyone to... And make them happen.
Guest:And make them happen, even though it's very, very difficult to get them off the ground.
Marc:But I'm happy for you because acting, it does feel like you don't, unless you're one of 10 people, have traction or control.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it's sort of a weird position to be in.
Marc:It's hard.
Marc:No matter how good you are, I would imagine you're still just working for somebody.
Guest:Well, that's the thing that shifts when you are producing.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And that's not a nice feeling, especially when inherent marginalization is a hemisphere that you are having to sort of engage with.
Marc:It's interesting because there are people that, you know, when you talk about, we started this conversation with what I'm assuming was a military dictatorship taking over.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Marc:And, you know, you had to, I don't know how active the fleeing was, but did you have time?
Marc:I mean, did you-
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:We weren't sort of packing a bag very quickly.
Guest:It's just that, you know, it was a military government that was so corrupt and that corrupt attitude became infectious.
Guest:So you couldn't, you know, you just have, you had police people just throwing up roadblocks everywhere.
Guest:And to get past it, you had to bribe them.
Guest:And if you had a certain degree of morality about you, you just felt, I can't go through my day perpetuating this corrupt atmosphere by paying into it.
Guest:And so that was partly why my parents were like, you know what, we have got to get out of here.
Guest:This is crazy.
Guest:And that, to bring it back to Gringo, that's partly why I wanted to play him as a Nigerian immigrant.
Guest:Because, as I say, he wasn't written as such.
Guest:But when Nash and I discussed it, how do you have a hapless, wide-eyed character who isn't just, you're going to put him in glasses, you're going to make him fat, you're going to make him a bit of a nerd, a nerdy guy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You can actually make him a real person who really believes.
Guest:And I watched my dad as an immigrant in the UK buy into something that every day kind of his faith in it was chipped away by the reality as opposed to his perception of what being in that country was going to mean for him.
Marc:It's a big deal, that reality versus perception thing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, it really is.
Guest:It really is.
Guest:And so for Harold Schoenker in Gringo, that's part of his awakening is the fact that he buys into corporate America, the American dream, the fact that his friend...
Guest:you know, who is going to help him climb the corporate ladder.
Guest:A friend, as played by Joel Edgerton, who is very shady and doing very dodgy things.
Guest:And then not till he gets to Mexico are his eyes opened and he's suddenly being chased by the cartel, his bosses, and an assassin.
Marc:It's interesting that if that Edgerton guy is not careful, he's going to be a shady guy in every movie.
Guest:He's good at it.
Guest:Well, he's not a shady guy in Loving.
Guest:Did you see him in that?
Marc:No, he's not.
Marc:He's great.
Marc:He's wonderful.
Marc:But in Black Mass, he was a great shady guy.
Marc:Great, great film and wonderful.
Marc:Front-footed shady guy.
Guest:Very front-footed.
Guest:He's good at that.
Guest:He's good at that.
Guest:He's a wonderful actor.
Marc:But let's talk about this because I want to come back around to this institutional marginalization, especially in show business, which is –
Marc:You know, it's been talked about for a long time.
Marc:Like, I remember Robert Townsend did a film about it.
Marc:Yeah, Hollywood Shuffle.
Marc:Yeah, Hollywood Shuffle.
Marc:So that, you know, and obviously before that, but that was really addressing it in a comedic way, the limited possibilities of black actors in Hollywood.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So when, and you talk about your father, and that is more systemic, you know,
Marc:You know, marginalization of just this is the way it is.
Marc:You're only going to get so far.
Marc:But like when you when did you start noticing it in like how did you come up as an actor?
Marc:You know, when did you start?
Guest:Well, in the UK, for instance, partly why I live in the States now is that, you know, as you know, in the UK, we love a good period drama.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And if you are going to deny the fact that black people have been in the UK for hundreds of years, then you're not going to put them in those shows.
Guest:And a lot of the great, you know, Ian McKellen, Patrick Stewart, who we've already talked about, a lot of those great actors, they started in the theater, migrated to period dramas, which we are known to do well.
Guest:And that's how they... On TV.
Guest:On TV, and then it goes to film.
Guest:And that's kind of traditionally how British actors become known.
Guest:That's the industry.
Guest:Yes, that's the pipeline.
Guest:That's the pipeline towards stardom, I guess you'd call it.
Guest:And if as a black person, that is not open to you.
Marc:Because they're denying it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're denying that part of their history.
Guest:Exactly right.
Guest:And so then the glass ceiling appears very early for you.
Guest:After you've done a couple of theater things, maybe a couple of TV things, and then it starts to get thin.
Marc:Where'd you train?
Marc:What was the process?
Guest:I trained at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art.
Marc:That's a good one.
Guest:It's a good one.
Marc:It's a very good one.
Marc:And was this something your dad was excited about?
Marc:No.
Marc:No.
Guest:Why do you want to go and associate with all these promiscuous people?
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:That was his concern?
Guest:Yeah, the promiscuity.
Guest:But also, you know, for a traditional Nigerian parent, the arts is just not, you know, it's engineering, it's lawyer, it's being a lawyer, a doctor, you know, it's academia.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But he's very proud now, I'm glad to say.
Marc:Well, they're scared too.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You know, they know it's hard enough.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:As anybody, you know, let alone, I would imagine, you know, as a Nigerian in England,
Marc:You get into something that at least you can get a paycheck.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Something stable.
Marc:A pension of some kind.
Marc:Something reliable.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, but that's where his nervousness stemmed from.
Guest:But as I say, you know, with time and thankfully I gained the kind of notoriety that made him.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Yeah, famal.
Marc:He's willing to forego.
Marc:And you're married, you got four kids.
Marc:He's assuming you made it through the promiscuous part.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:But so you go to the Royal Academy and then what's the next step in the education?
Marc:What did you learn there?
Marc:Just tradition, like classics?
Guest:It's a very theater-based training.
Guest:So, you know, you learn how to, this is going to sound pretentious, but you learn how to use your body as an instrument.
Guest:You learn how to be able to be on stage and convey emotion and humanity and story and language to a 2,000-seat auditorium.
Marc:There is...
Marc:A difference between classically trained actors.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And a method trained actor.
Guest:I would agree with that.
Guest:I would agree with that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That, I guess, is the big difference between American sort of actor training and British is that, you know, film being a, I guess, a younger storytelling tradition is what has been embraced by America.
Guest:And you could argue America gave to the world.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, you know, method acting and that methodology is prevalent.
Guest:Whereas in the UK, it is rooted in the Greek tragedies and Shakespeare.
Guest:You know, that's where you're coming from.
Guest:And so, yeah, that was the nature of my training.
Guest:And then that led to me being at the Royal Shakespeare Company for three years.
Marc:Does it naturally lead to that?
Marc:Or you got to audition for that?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You have to audition.
Guest:They don't just sort of pluck you out of a drama score.
Guest:Okay, everyone from Lambda now come to the RSC.
Marc:That's not how they refill it every four years?
Guest:If only.
Guest:But no, so I ended up there and I had some amazing opportunities.
Guest:I got to play Henry VI.
Guest:in Henry VI parts one, two, and three.
Guest:And that was a big deal for me.
Guest:No black actor had ever played an English king.
Marc:Other than only black actors do Othello.
Marc:That's what we have.
Marc:Othello was the black actor.
Guest:Exactly, exactly.
Guest:We'll throw them that bone.
Marc:That's the big payoff for the black actor.
Guest:But yeah, but no Henry V or VI or Richard II or Richard III.
Guest:And you did it.
Marc:And I did it.
Marc:Richard II, which is the one with the limp or the hunchback?
Marc:That's Richard III.
Marc:Yeah, that's a rough one.
Guest:Yeah, you'll need a chiropractor for that one.
Marc:I saw William Hurt do it in Broadway, and I don't know what happened.
Marc:I know I was excited to see William Hurt, and then it was just like... At what point did you start... How many minutes in did you start switching off, thinking about your laundry list?
Guest:37.
Marc:37 out of the 190...
Guest:You had barely made it out of the first act, Mark.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:But I was younger and I was just... Foolishness of youth.
Marc:I just didn't know what to expect.
Marc:Look, I try.
Marc:I try.
Marc:I love the trying.
Marc:Well, you know, you hold on to the language for a while, but if you check out for a minute, you check back in.
Marc:It's fucking over, dude.
Marc:There's a vigilance necessary to the attention given.
Guest:Well, did you notice what we did with Othello?
Guest:Sam did a genius thing, which is that the first scene was completely in the dark.
Guest:And what that does is it keys you into the language as opposed to going, oh, there's Daniel Craig.
Guest:Oh, look at the set.
Guest:You lead with the language.
Guest:And so by the time the lights came on, people sort of were less intimidated because they've almost had to...
Guest:to key in to, as you would, an audio book.
Guest:And then, boom, there you have the images.
Marc:Yeah, it was great.
Marc:I remember Sam Gold is Baker's friend.
Marc:Annie Baker, is that her name?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:The playwright, he did the flick, didn't he?
Guest:Yes, that's exactly right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Marc:And that guy, the actor from the flick, I think was in?
Guest:Yes, he was, Matt Mayer.
Marc:He's good.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He played Rodrigo.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:But all right.
Marc:So getting back to it.
Marc:So you you do the you play the king for the first time.
Marc:You're the first black man to play these Richards.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And how'd that go over?
Marc:The Henrys.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Really well, thankfully.
Guest:Oh, they were ready.
Marc:They're like, OK, they weren't ready.
Guest:But thankfully, the productions were good enough that people went, oh, actually, we just liked the story.
Guest:And it's not, you know, I wasn't again, as is the case with Gringo.
Guest:I wasn't.
Guest:I look when I.
Guest:Left drama school.
Guest:I literally, every agent I approached with a view of taking me on, I said, I want to go up for the roles white actors are going up for.
Guest:And some of them would laugh at me and say, why?
Guest:I said, because so often the roles written for black characters are less dimensional and are on the periphery.
Guest:And that's not what I'm really interested in.
Guest:That's not what inspires me when I watch a film or read a play.
Guest:I ideally want to be at the center of the story or at least have a degree of complexity that is going to make me work.
Marc:That's interesting.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So that's that outsider's point of view idea.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Whereas everything is going to be limited to their perception.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:And that speaks to the marginalization a bit, that if you're not working with black writers or black directors to a degree where at least the common experience can be seen in each character, then it's gonna be flat.
Marc:It's going to be shallow.
Guest:Even beyond common experience, just attention to it.
Guest:Because so often, it's not actually racism.
Guest:It's just we project our own existence into the work we do.
Guest:So as a writer, as a producer, as a director, you are going to gravitate towards work that reflects your own world.
Guest:And this was borne out when I first sat down with Nash, our director on Gringo.
Guest:And he said, wow, I've been scouting locations in Chicago, which is where my character lives in the film.
Guest:And about half the population seems to me is black.
Guest:And I've not once thought of this character as being a black man.
Guest:And he said, and I know that's fundamentally to do with the fact that I'm a white man.
Guest:And not until you've come in and helped me see a world in which it could be someone like you have I even contemplated it.
Marc:Yeah, that's interesting because, you know, your character has the most depth in the movie.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But that's not... You're saying, right, but that's not on purpose.
Marc:You know, it's just that because of the work that he... You made him more attentive.
Marc:You had ideas about this character.
Marc:And he had a sort of personal history that is reading...
Marc:As a character, but not written into it.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Whereas when no matter how good Charlize Theron is as an actress, I've kind of seen that character before.
Guest:But you know, the thing though, Mark, is that the character, even before I came along.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He is the protagonist.
Guest:And so that is where you want the most amount of depth and nuance and dimension.
Guest:But the really great thing for me is that I can come and play a character that you have very seldom seen on film.
Guest:When last did you see a Nigerian immigrant as the driving character in an action comedy?
Marc:No, I've never seen it.
Marc:It's never happened.
Guest:I would know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You did your research?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I heard that there was a Nigerian man played the Henrys in Shakespeare.
Marc:Oh, that guy.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He wasn't very good.
Guest:Yeah, but he's like breaking...
Guest:It's done wonders for him, but I think I could have done that better.
Marc:No, that's true.
Marc:I think that's true that there were nuances to the gringo character that exists in you outside of the character that you were able to bring to it.
Marc:And yeah, I've never seen it before.
Guest:Well, this is the thing when we just broaden the palette a bit.
Guest:It's the same thing with female directors.
Guest:Men are phenomenal, and I've worked with a lot of great male directors, but women do bring something a bit different.
Guest:And it's not that it's better or worse.
Guest:It's just that it's seldom seen.
Guest:And so when it's done well, when you give them...
Guest:all the toys and allow them to go with their creativity, it's fresh.
Guest:You know, Wonder Woman is fresh in the world of superheroes because you suddenly have a female perspective and you're going, whoa!
Guest:Because we've so often seen a different perspective.
Guest:It was the same thing with Selma.
Guest:You know, every guy or every director, I should say, who contemplated it before Ava came along was a man.
Guest:And it took a very specific, more political, more cerebral point of view.
Guest:When she came on, the women characters became so much more nuanced.
Guest:The emotion of what I got to do as Dr. King was so much more layered.
Guest:And again, it's not to say that any of the guy's versions wasn't going to be potent and exciting and visceral, but it was just slightly different having a woman doing it.
Guest:And we just need more different kinds of people telling stories so we see all the layers.
Marc:Sensitivity is different.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And also what I was thinking when you were talking about the other thing in terms of as people get older with writers, no matter who they are, and people in show business and directors, the more you get set in your ways of life, the smaller your world becomes.
Marc:So what your experience is when you come to it, if you're a white writer writing for a black role, a guy who just sits and writes in Pacific Palisades for the last 20 years, I mean, what is his point of reference even gonna be?
Marc:To make up a black guy.
Guest:It's going to be a regurgitation of what he's watching on TV.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's what it's going to be.
Guest:Or perceptions of what that is.
Guest:Or something he wrote 20 years ago.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, it would actually probably be better if it was something he wrote 20 years ago because he was probably more connected to the world before he became rich and lived in the Pacific Palisades and had less contact with humanity.
Guest:That happens with actors all the time.
Guest:Sometimes their ability to express humanity diminished
Guest:with age because they are less connected to humanity you've got to really guard that you've got to take time off and go and just live and be with people if you're just going from movie set to movie set being pampered surrounded by yes people your potency as an actor in my opinion will diminish
Marc:No, it would seem to make sense, but it would also seem that with the specific type of classical training you have, it shouldn't make as much a difference.
Guest:I think there's something to be said for that, because you know what?
Guest:If you have given 500 performances of Henry VI...
Guest:where every night you have people's eyeballs on you and you can tell when they believe you and you can really tell when they don't.
Guest:You have a muscle memory as to how to tell the truth as an actor that being on a set sometimes doesn't afford you because it's such an artificial environment.
Guest:So when you have that in your body, that's why our favorite actors are often those who have done great work in theater.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, the other thing I'm starting to realize as I talk to you, and I think I always knew it, but I don't think I knew it in the same way, is that
Marc:the other voices thing in terms of even on international, I'm not just talking black women, but from all different cultures around the world that these stories from other places that are told from people that live in other places is essential to keeping the humanity of things visceral and fresh and challenging.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Because you just fall into a hellscape of your phone.
Guest:Oh, my goodness.
Guest:It's such a problem.
Guest:It really, really is.
Guest:I mean, look, those phones and social media have actually done some great things in that we, you know, not everyone can travel, but you can with this phone.
Guest:You can be in the Serengeti.
Guest:You can see what's happening.
Guest:It's not the same thing as experiencing it, but at least there's a way on your phone you can realize that people in Nigeria don't all live in huts and are surrounded by lions, which I have heard so many times said to me here in America as a perception of what my life in Nigeria must have been.
Guest:So they think of Lion King.
Guest:They think of, they think of, if only.
Guest:It's, you know, it's Lion King mixed in with genocide, mixed in with, you know, all sorts of hideous things.
Guest:But that's pervasive.
Guest:I mean, we...
Guest:We really need... Education is so crucial.
Guest:I mean, I talk to a bunch of young kids, and you say, who do you think... Who is Dr. King?
Guest:And they say, oh, he freed the slaves.
Marc:Come on.
Guest:I mean, literally, you would hear kids say... Maybe mentally.
Guest:Hopefully.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Partly.
Guest:But they meant literally, which is a problem.
Guest:So, you know, but that's why when I go going back to as a producer, you know, I did this film, A United Kingdom, set in Botswana and the UK.
Guest:And I really wanted a director of color, preferably someone who had an experience of the African continent.
Guest:So Amma Asante, who's Ghanaian, who's also born in the UK, was a perfect person to tell that story.
Guest:Traditionally, it would be a white dude from Los Feliz who would get to direct that film.
Guest:Who'd get there and be like, oh, God, it's so hot here.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:Every character in the film would be going, oh, God.
Guest:Yeah, it's so hot.
Guest:And they would all be white dudes while all the black people are going, we live here and it's just fine.
Guest:And they'd be on the side because he wouldn't understand them.
Guest:And that's fine.
Guest:You know, there are stories I shouldn't tell.
Guest:And it's not to say that, you know, the white dude from Los Feliz shouldn't tell that story, but it's been that way for so long that we just don't have a different perspective.
Guest:And, you know, that's something that is happening a bit more, but we have to be vigilant and not have it be just a moment, a movement that continues.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:But like the beginning of that for you was interesting to me that how you talk about the British industry is that you knew this going in in a very specific way that that the business was dug in.
Marc:The representation of black people was dug in the history of the theater and of England in general was dug in.
Marc:And they have, I imagine, their documentaries on television and some TV and film projects that do talk about the marginalization and tell those stories.
Marc:But it's certainly not enough to make a living.
Guest:No.
Guest:And there are not enough people to fight the cause because all the people who have the decision-making power are all of a certain demographic.
Guest:Until that truly changes, will it actually completely change?
Marc:Do you see that struggle in Britain as being unwinnable?
Guest:No, I don't see it as unwinnable, and I think we're actually winning.
Guest:I'm about to do a miniseries of Les Miserables playing Javert in that show, and it's for the BBC.
Guest:It's a six-part drama, and it's exactly the kind of role I would have loved to have seen as a young kid growing up that would have opened my eyes to different possibilities, but they didn't exist.
Guest:I've had to come and forge a degree of success here in order to be able to go back
Guest:And be part of those opportunities that I hope will be part of the change.
Marc:And also help facilitate them.
Guest:Like you have a voice in, let's make this happen.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And I've been fairly vocal about it.
Guest:And I have no doubt that that's partly why an opportunity like this comes along.
Guest:And I get to produce that.
Guest:I'm one of the producers on it.
Guest:And that also is a very significant shift.
Guest:That's the kind of thing that definitely wouldn't have happened when I was younger, looking for heroes and circumstances that would inspire me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so when you talk about Hollywood here, it does feel like there is a persistence to the movement both with women and people of color.
Marc:That it's sort of like, you know, we're not going to stop now.
Marc:Well, you know what?
Marc:It's important.
Guest:Also, we're seeing such systemic change with the Me Too movement going on right now.
Guest:And I do think that this is a moment beyond which Hollywood will never be the same again.
Guest:You know, I may have been reticent to say that a few months ago, but I really feel like it's with us now, this change as it becomes to the marginalization of women and the mistreatment of women in Hollywood and everywhere.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's just kind of ironic and probably fitting that it started within Hollywood and has become pervasive.
Guest:I don't mean it started in Hollywood.
Guest:I mean that this sort of lightning rod.
Guest:Yeah, the consciousness.
Guest:Yeah, that's centered around the world.
Guest:And it is an industry that has the ability because it curates culture.
Guest:It forms, unfortunately, more so than it should the way we think, you know, because we don't read as much anymore.
Guest:We just watch.
Marc:Well, it's very funny from the beginning Hollywood's been like that, that there was these three or four sort of like European immigrant Jewish people, men, who couldn't pass and did not fit in and were not welcome.
Marc:So they're like, we'll invent a world that will make America look like this place where everybody can live.
Guest:A place where we can exist and thrive and be successful.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:The seeds of it were from marginalization.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And that's the thing.
Guest:This is what we do.
Guest:We form a power base on the basis of being marginalized elsewhere.
Guest:And then we do the very thing that was done to us before we formed a power base.
Guest:It takes some time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It takes some time.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but it's a revolving kind of human condition.
Guest:But like I say, you know, I actually, if you'd asked me this time last year about do I think good change is coming, I would perpetually say, yeah.
Guest:I've seen this before.
Guest:I've seen moments where it seems that way, and then we regress.
Guest:I actually think, you know, as it pertains to female directors- Big regression.
Guest:Politically, we're in a massive regression.
Guest:But I think that's partly why there is progression elsewhere.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Are you kidding?
Marc:People are furious.
Guest:They're like, are you fucking kidding me?
Guest:You've got to be fucking kidding me.
Guest:Isn't it crazy that it takes that though?
Marc:For people that take it into their own hands and organize and create communities as opposed to like, I don't know, isn't someone else doing something about that?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Do I have to get involved?
Marc:Can I just write a check?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:It's ironic and we're laughing because otherwise we would cry, but it's true.
Marc:Of course, it's true.
Marc:And I don't I think that that part of of that, if the system that we live in here, you know, is able to survive this, that's how it survives.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that's always been how it survives.
Marc:Whereas in other countries that do not have, you know, as sort of what do I want?
Marc:Aspirational, a political system.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That it's impossible.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Tyranny will always succeed.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:And that is the amazing thing about this country.
Guest:I do think that it was built on dreams.
Guest:It was built on having a people who could dare to dream.
Guest:And that was the thing that I just... It was the thing that wasn't in the script of Gringo that we were able to put in there.
Guest:This aspiration, this...
Guest:This wide-eyed aspiration of what the American dream could mean for my character as a Nigerian immigrant and how that bites him in the butt so furiously on the basis of the degrees of his trust.
Marc:I like the way that you talk about, you know, this character primarily that, you know, it's starting to sound like Gringo might be the best movie about America ever.
Marc:The struggle of immigrants and race to ever be made.
Marc:We're going to quote you on that.
Marc:That's going to be on buses.
Marc:I'm just extrapolating from these moments of excitement in the context of the bigger conversation.
Marc:When you come back to this, it's an action comedy movie.
Marc:But when we're talking about it in the context of what we're talking about, it's like, this sounds like a very important film.
Guest:It is.
Guest:Everything I do is important, Mark.
Guest:Did you not know this?
Guest:Have you not seen my work?
Guest:Believe me.
Marc:Believe me.
Marc:I was nervous going into this.
Guest:No, but I do, you know, to a certain degree, I do think it's pretty radical, I think, personally, others may scoff at me, to have a character...
Guest:the likes of which you haven't seen under these circumstances.
Guest:Because it's one thing for me to get to play roles that Ryan Gosling couldn't, but it's another thing to get to play roles that not only Ryan Gosling could, but has, but for me to then be able to bring my history, my culture, my experiences, and the freshness that that then brings with a cast like Charlize and Joel and Amanda,
Guest:And to see what that does, because that actually is the world we live in.
Marc:No, I think and I think that's true.
Marc:And it sounds it sounds like it should be simple.
Marc:Right.
Marc:In a way.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That, you know, why wouldn't we just honor, you know, the way things really are as opposed to fabricating.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, like and I think that I just don't think that people, you know, certainly the entrenched industry is not used to it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But to do what you're doing, which is to think through this character who is part of the fabric of this country.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Common.
Marc:Common.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And just integrate that.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Something that everybody deals with every day, no matter where they're from, really.
Marc:Even if they hate black people, they're dealing with immigrants.
Marc:They're not writing the script, hopefully.
Marc:But it is part of the fabric of our country, and it's not represented.
Guest:100%.
Guest:A hundred percent.
Guest:That's why I'm just so excited about it.
Guest:Because, you know, it's the kind of thing... It's a breakthrough for you.
Marc:And when you put it into the larger context, it's a breakthrough.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It is.
Guest:And you only... And, you know, when our trailer came out, you only had to look at the reaction from...
Guest:immigrant communities to it because they recognize themselves in a way that, you know, everyone else is like, wow, okay, that looks funny.
Guest:But, you know, people, particularly Africans, you know, who live in it, whoa, that's my jam.
Guest:We are going to see that, you know, because I truly believe we all go to the movies to see ourselves.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:I think that's why we do almost everything.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Have children.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Find people that like us and stay with them.
Guest:You're so right.
Guest:You are.
Guest:So I hadn't thought of it that way.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:We're just all narcissists.
Marc:Yeah, it's true.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Altruism.
Marc:Because you know you're a narcissist if you never shut up about your altruism.
Marc:Do you know what I did to help these people?
Marc:Right.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Now I'm backtracking over everything I just said.
Marc:You don't strike me as the narcissistic type.
Guest:I'd like to think.
Marc:But so is this going to be, are you departing more from carrying the burden of history?
Marc:I mean, because the butler, Selma, I didn't see Nightingale, but that seemed like it was a beginning of the shift, right?
Guest:Yes, yes, you're right.
Guest:That was not written as race specific.
Guest:And so that was, yeah, I loved doing that film.
Guest:That was quite the challenge.
Marc:Yeah, you played.
Marc:Well, it's interesting.
Marc:The black nerd is not represented enough in film and television.
Guest:No.
Guest:And boy, do they exist.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I've met a couple.
Marc:So, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I'm happy.
Guest:I'm happy to give them a platform.
Marc:um what what uh what did when you were in britain i just wanted to ask you like before you moved here and when you were involved did you like how much theater did you do i mean outside of shakespeare was there is there something i know because it is a theater city but was there did you spend a lot of time doing like off broadway type of production oh yeah oh yeah like did you do all the plays that everybody does
Guest:Maybe not the ones that everyone does.
Marc:Were you doing Pinter?
Guest:I did Pinter.
Guest:That was actually at drama school.
Guest:But I did productions of things like The God-Botherers and Bouncers.
Guest:I did smaller plays in pub venues.
Guest:I actually did a Greek tragedy called The Suppliants in a pub venue.
Guest:And that's actually where the RSC came to see me.
Guest:And I got snapped up by them.
Marc:A pub venue.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What is that exactly?
Marc:Like a black box?
Guest:Like a bar that sort of has a theater attached to it kind of thing.
Guest:It's quite a popular thing in London in particular.
Guest:But, you know, the tradition in the UK is one whereby... And it's less so now because, you know, UK has become basically the 51st state in many ways.
Guest:But when I was coming up as an actor...
Guest:You went to drama school and then you wanted to be in repertory companies where you got to stand in the wings and watch actors like Ian McKellen and Judi Dench giving these great performances.
Guest:And that was part of your training.
Guest:You wanted it to be an extension of the three years you've just spent at drama school.
Guest:And it's treated more as an apprenticeship that then leads into bigger and better opportunities.
Guest:But you really actually don't want the big opportunities early because...
Guest:the way we all thought about it is you don't want to get found out.
Guest:You want to kind of learn your craft so that by the time you have more eyeballs on you, you really know what you're doing.
Guest:So yeah, I sought out those opportunities so that I could learn.
Guest:I did Anthony Cleopatra with Alan Bates and Francis de la Torre and got to watch them every night.
Guest:I did a production of
Guest:of Volpone where Malcolm Storey played Volpone and it was extraordinary you know I was there at times where you had the Judi Denches and they would come back and do plays at the RSC and you would literally because in Stratford-upon-Avon the theatres the main stage and the
Guest:And a smaller space called The Swan share a corridor.
Guest:So you could literally, when you had downtime from your production, which you had a lot of when you were a spare carrier, like I was in my early years at the RSC, and you could just, you know, nip to the other stage, stand in the wings and watch.
Guest:Amazing.
Guest:Amazing, legendary performances.
Guest:Just watch five minutes of it and then you're back on stage.
Guest:Right, get a little juice, a little hit.
Marc:Yeah, and that stays with you for the whole of your acting life.
Marc:I bet, man.
Marc:It is interesting when you're sort of in the wings and you can see sort of the machinations of great actors.
Marc:And you can really glean something from it.
Guest:And you see the nerves.
Guest:You see the nerves.
Guest:You see great actors.
Guest:I had one actor who will remain nameless.
Guest:And the way he manifested nerves was he would just fart continuously.
Guest:And I had to be behind him just as we were about to go on stage.
Guest:And it was farting and burping constantly.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And just so nervous.
Guest:And the minute he hit the stage,
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Gone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he blamed it on you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That spear carrier.
Guest:But yeah, but there's something to be said for realizing that they're not superhuman.
Guest:It's just about the work.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:You know.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Well, I know.
Marc:You realize that more and more as you get along in this business.
Marc:You're like, oh, not only are they human, they're painfully human.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Exactly right.
Marc:Well, what is the officer of the order of the British Empire?
Marc:Is that like the one step shy of a knight?
Guest:It is.
Guest:And you're one of those.
Guest:I'm one of those.
Guest:I'm an OBE for services to drama.
Guest:And yeah, that was a real pinch me moment.
Guest:I had to go to Buckingham Palace to get the honor.
Guest:And yeah, don't ask me what it actually means.
Guest:It's just a kind of an acknowledgement that I guess I'm doing something right.
Guest:Baby steps.
Guest:I'm starting with my OBE.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And...
Guest:But there were people who had a problem with me being an OB.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, because, you know, Nigeria was colonized by Great Britain and Great Britain did some real damage to the African continent.
Guest:We're still dealing with the fallout from colonialism.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, you know, there were those who said, should you be accepting an order of the British Empire?
Guest:Empire being the controversial word.
Guest:And the way I see it is that, you know, my country of origin, Nigeria, paid in blood and gold and cocoa and oil for what Great Britain is today.
Guest:So, hey.
Guest:Heck to the yeah.
Guest:I'm going to reap the rewards.
Guest:You owe it to me.
Marc:And I would like some, all those products I just mentioned, I would like for a lifetime.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:I wanted to peel some of the gold leaf off of Buckingham Palace while I was there.
Guest:No, it's all good.
Guest:And, you know, I'm just trying to do my bit to remind people of the fact that, you know, Great Britain would be nothing without the rape and pillage of Africa.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Most of Africa, India.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:A few other places.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Everyone had a piece of Africa.
Marc:There was quite a few colonized, right?
Marc:The Dutch.
Marc:Oh, my goodness.
Marc:The French.
Marc:The Belgians.
Marc:Oh, the Belgians.
Guest:You want to read the Congo story.
Guest:Oh, my goodness.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's bad.
Marc:When was the last time you went back there?
Guest:I was in Nigeria last about two years ago.
Guest:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Do you still have family there?
Guest:I do.
Guest:A lot of family.
Guest:Is it great?
Guest:It is great.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:It's so, so nice.
Marc:Well, just, okay, so what do we need to do?
Marc:You keep getting the interesting roles.
Marc:You should go visit your brother in Australia.
Marc:Yes, I should.
Guest:I will.
Marc:I will.
Marc:And good luck on your sort of journey to knighthood.
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:And don't give up on Shakespeare, Mark.
Marc:I'm not.
Marc:I'm not.
Marc:Good talking to you.
Marc:You too.
Marc:That was fun.
Marc:I like that guy.
Marc:Gringo opens in theaters tomorrow, March 9th.
Marc:Go to the tour page at WTFPod.com to get venue and ticket information for my A Few Parts of the World Tour, which kicks off in London on April 16th.
Marc:And what else?
Marc:What else?
Marc:I feel a little nauseous.
Marc:I'm going to... Am I playing?
Marc:I'll play.
I'll play.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Boomer lives!