Episode 894 - Bill Janovitz / Danny Lobell
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:Terrians?
Marc:How's that?
Marc:Terrians?
Marc:Come on.
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast WTF.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:How's everybody doing?
Marc:As maybe you can tell in my voice, I'm feeling a bit better.
Marc:I'm not 100%, but I don't know if I ever am anymore.
Marc:Is that possible?
Marc:like i i don't feel i i had it had moved into my guts now i don't want to get graphic i don't want to be tmi guy but uh there were problems man like i i didn't know like there was a lot going on that's i'm gonna leave it at that there was it started off in the head then moved to the chest a little then it just it found a home in my uh lower gi uh
Marc:Let's just put it there.
Marc:I don't know where it really was.
Marc:But yeah, it was a problem.
Marc:But I'm feeling better.
Marc:What was my point?
Marc:The point I was trying to make was that I wake up and I still feel kind of shitty.
Marc:But then I got to think back before I had the sickness and...
Marc:I, that's most of the time.
Marc:Like I wake up and I'm like, not great.
Marc:Is this the way it's going to be?
Marc:I don't feel well rested.
Marc:I'm a little dizzy.
Marc:Uh, my will to, to, to move through the day is not great, but I'm up early.
Marc:So, so I can think about that stuff a lot.
Marc:Why am I not doing more with my life?
Marc:Why am I not?
Marc:Maybe I should switch back to coffee.
Marc:Maybe this tea is very unsatisfying.
Marc:Maybe, uh,
Marc:Maybe I don't, maybe this cat food's not right for any of us if it has fish in it because they're going to throw it up on the couch and then I got to deal with that smell on top of other things.
Marc:That's become a big concern.
Marc:Today on the show, I've got two guests.
Marc:I talked to Danny Lobel.
Marc:Danny Lobel, the comedian.
Marc:He's got a new record out, and he's a mensch, a true mensch, this Lobel kid.
Marc:I've known him a long time.
Marc:He's got a comic out called Fair Enough.
Marc:It was always his dream to write and illustrate it.
Marc:He didn't illustrate it, but he wrote it.
Marc:Fair Enough, true stories from the life of comedian Danny Lobel.
Marc:And he's got the podcast, Modern Day Philosophers.
Marc:He's got a new record out, a new CD, The Nicest Boy in Barcelona with a riff on the
Marc:Miles Davis sketches in Spain cover.
Marc:But LaBelle, you know, he had a radio show interviewing comics long before I had WTF, and he's a gem, this kid.
Marc:He's a kid who's nice to old people.
Marc:He likes hanging out with the old guys.
Marc:He was a friend of Shelly Berman's.
Marc:He's a good kid.
Marc:He's going to be on.
Marc:Bill Janowitz from Buffalo Tom is here, which in Buffalo Tom is one of my favorite bands.
Marc:I love Buffalo Tom.
Marc:I love that band.
Marc:I love that band.
Marc:And they always make me feel better.
Marc:And here's the thing about Bill.
Marc:I never really saw Buffalo Tom back in the day.
Marc:We were sort of contemporaries back when I was in Boston.
Marc:But I don't think I ever went to see them.
Marc:And when I got there, the record I got was Birdbrain.
Marc:And that record just blew my mind.
Marc:It's already living in New York in the late 80s.
Marc:But they had an album before that self-titled that I think I talked to Jay Maskis about because he produced it.
Marc:But that's got Sunflower Suit and The Bus.
Marc:The Bus, that song kills me.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:There's just something about the way that guy writes music.
Marc:And he's here.
Marc:And I've just been wondering what he's been doing.
Marc:They put a new record out.
Marc:But I...
Marc:It was one of those, like, I didn't know how it was going to go because I didn't know, like, I haven't heard from him.
Marc:And I'm like, in terms of music, and I'm like, what's he been doing?
Marc:Is he okay?
Marc:And so it's sort of like, I try to kind of ease into that.
Marc:Like, what are you doing to make a living?
Marc:You know, I mean, Buffalo Tom was great.
Marc:But what do you know what's been happening?
Marc:It wasn't negative.
Marc:It's not negative.
Marc:It's all good.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:I'm going to go see them this Saturday, I think.
Marc:Anyway, here's what happened.
Marc:This is what this is what we're building up to.
Marc:This is the big payoff.
Marc:So I'm still sick, right?
Marc:But I'd already put in for spots.
Marc:And I was actually more sick than I wanted to be.
Marc:And I put in some... I knew, like... I went to the bathroom before I left for the comedy store, which is about a 34-minute drive from my house, my new house, over... Well, I don't want to give too much away.
Marc:But I don't... It's, you know, not a lot of options if something bad.
Marc:What my point was is that...
Marc:I said to myself, look, I'll do the spot if I don't shit my pants in my car.
Marc:That was the deal I made with myself is that I'll do my comedy if I don't shit my pants in my car on the way over.
Marc:It was a high possibility.
Marc:And there's not even great restrooms at the comedy store for the help.
Marc:Well, it's the same restrooms for everybody.
Marc:But so needless to say, not only did I not shit my pants on the way over to the comedy store, but I did a pretty good set for somebody that was about to shit their pants.
Marc:Sometimes it's what I need.
Marc:It's just what I need to really show up is the looming possibility of something horrible happening.
Marc:In this case, literally horrible, not just a mental thing like I could have shit my pants on stage.
Marc:I would have liked somebody to just tape my face in that moment where I knew it was happening because I'd like to save that face to close all of my shows with.
Marc:How is that not the funniest face ever?
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:He's shitting his pants.
Marc:Yep, I got blue.
Marc:We did some shit jokes.
Marc:So Danny LaBelle is a very sweet guy, very funny guy, thoughtful guy, Jewish guy, married guy.
Marc:And I say those things because, you know, he's really Jewy.
Marc:And like, you know, he's all in.
Marc:Like he brought me some kosher baked goods.
Marc:when he got here.
Marc:They were okay.
Marc:That's the thing about kosher food.
Marc:It's like, how was it?
Marc:It was okay.
Marc:I don't think it was as good as a French bakery.
Marc:Like, I don't think the almond croissants from the kosher joint are as good as the actual French bakery.
Marc:But, you know, you got to do what you got to do, right?
Marc:You don't want to mix those things.
Marc:God forbid the cheese touches the meat.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Anyway, not be ungrateful.
Marc:I ate them either way.
Marc:I ate the kosher croissants.
Marc:They weren't flaky enough, though.
Marc:They weren't flaky like you want a really great croissant to be.
Marc:But hey, you got to keep the dairy separate.
Marc:So you take what you get.
Marc:Hey, at least they're doing it, right?
Marc:Back in the day, kosher croissant, what was that?
Marc:We just assumed the French didn't like Jews of any kind.
Marc:Where'd that come from?
Marc:Anyway, Danny LaBelle, he's got a comic book out called Fair Enough, True Stories from the Life of Comedian Danny LaBelle.
Marc:You can get that at fairenoughcomic.com.
Marc:He's got his podcast, Modern Day Philosophers, and he's got his new album called The Nicest Boy in Barcelona.
Marc:Get that on iTunes, and now you're going to hear me talk to the lovely Danny LaBelle.
Marc:... ...
Marc:So I read the comic book or the rough draft of it, and it's basically... It almost is Picard-esque.
Marc:And you did all the artwork as well.
Marc:No.
Guest:Amy Hayes did the artwork.
Marc:But you do paintings.
Marc:You just brought me a painting of me.
Guest:Yes, I do.
Guest:But the amount of time and commitment to make a comic book to the level that I want it to be, I felt like I should leave it in the hands of an expert comic book illustrator.
Guest:And I have...
Guest:This guy, Josh Meatbag Mead is doing the second one out of Minneapolis.
Guest:Eventually, I'll do one.
Guest:I'll illustrate one as well.
Guest:But it's hard to balance everything and put out a good product.
Marc:So after years as a stand-up comic and an adept of Orthodox Jewish religion from Scottish roots, an interviewer of comedians...
Marc:An amateur artist, a liker of old Alta Caca comedians.
Marc:A hanger on to the saddest, oldest of the comics.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Now, out of a seemingly hidden desire, you are making a comic book about your life.
Guest:That's what I always wanted to do.
Guest:So, I feel like I'm right now in the Danny Lobel renaissance.
Guest:Is that what it's called in the calendar?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I'm doing everything I ever wanted to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got a clarinet.
Guest:I started taking lessons.
Guest:I always wanted- How old are you?
Guest:34.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I always wanted to play the clarinet like Bechet.
Guest:You never played anything before?
Guest:I played the violin when I was a kid.
Guest:So nothing for the whole life?
Guest:No.
Guest:And you decided to take clarinet lessons?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:How's it going?
Guest:Great.
Guest:Really?
Guest:It brings me so much joy.
Guest:Have you ever seen me this happy since you've known me?
Guest:I'm trying to read you.
Guest:You can read me inside and out.
Guest:There's nothing to hide.
Guest:I'm so happy.
Guest:I'm doing everything I ever wanted to do.
Guest:And talking about the interconnectivity and my loving of hanging on there comedians, I started going up to Mill Valley to see Mort Sahl.
Guest:And then I wound up playing at the Throckmorton Theater, doing some stand-up there.
Guest:And I had this painting that I brought you, a copy of this Bechet painting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I showed it to the woman who runs the Throckmorton, Lucy, and she goes, you should do an art exhibit.
Guest:I said, look, this is the first thing I painted in 20 years.
Guest:I used to paint when I was a kid, but she goes, well, how much time do you need?
Guest:I said, how many pieces do I need?
Guest:She goes, 20.
Guest:I said, all right, April.
Yeah.
Guest:Now you're jamming out paintings.
Guest:I've been doing paintings.
Guest:I'm playing music.
Guest:I'm writing comic books.
Guest:I'm painting all day.
Guest:I'm doing charcoals.
Guest:I started doing all the jazz musicians, Artie Shaw and Jimmy Noon and Benny Goodman and a bunch of comedians, you and Gilbert and Dave Chappelle.
Guest:So I'm doing a gallery exhibit of comedians and jazz musicians that I love.
Marc:Well, that's exciting.
Marc:So, yeah.
Marc:And you came out with this record with the homage to Sketches of Spain as the cover.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Why is it called The Nicest Boy in Barcelona?
Guest:So, my family was originally from Barcelona and they were kicked out in the Inquisition.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, I wanted to go back and do a record there.
Guest:So, I went back to Barcelona and I did a record there.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:So, yeah.
Guest:For, like, a Spanish audience?
Guest:It was, like, half Catalan and half expats.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was a crazy time, because I recorded it.
Guest:It came out now, but I recorded it right after the Paris shootings, the night after.
Guest:So nobody wanted it to come out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I went to a Sephardic synagogue that afternoon...
Guest:In Barcelona.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And half the synagogue turned up to see me.
Guest:So it was like this cosmic thing.
Guest:Like I would have had almost no crowd.
Guest:I had a few Catalan people, a few expats, and then half of a Sephardic congregation from Barcelona.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So it's like crazy.
Marc:You just told them you were playing?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And they came?
Marc:How big of the congregation?
Marc:Seven people.
Guest:But it was a small group.
Yeah.
Marc:Good.
Marc:I'm glad they showed up for you.
Marc:Quite an achievement.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know really.
Marc:How many?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, the congregation in whole was like 20 people, but, you know, like seven of them showed up.
Guest:Oh, boy.
Guest:I thought it was big numbers.
Guest:No, but I mean, it saved the show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I'm dead serious.
Guest:Seven people saved the show?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a tiny little theater called the Tinta Roja.
Guest:How many people is a seat?
Guest:Probably 40.
Guest:And we...
Guest:You're really dire straits there.
Guest:Yeah, but it was going to be like, the first time I went out and played Spain, it was like sold-out crowds.
Guest:I went out with this guy, Stephen Garland brought me out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He ran the Barcelona International Comedy Music Film Festival, I don't know, whatever, a lot of titles.
Marc:There's a couple of those guys that run those rackets, huh?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There was a guy who did a China run, forget his name.
Marc:I did it, Beijing and Hong Kong, I think.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Was that good?
Marc:I don't know, it was all right.
Marc:The shows were okay.
Marc:It was interesting to be in China.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I can't say the shows were anything monumental.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, yeah, the first time I went, I was like, wow, I got to do a record here because it was packed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then the second time... This time?
Guest:This time when I go out with recording people and everything, there's a huge terror attack the night before and nobody wants to leave their house.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So...
Guest:I had one shot at it and I said, you know what?
Guest:I'll do it with a light crowd.
Guest:And it still came out great.
Guest:It's just, it's a light crowd.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you did well with the light crowd.
Guest:I think so.
Marc:And you can identify everybody's single laugh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Every one of those 40 people.
Marc:They're all on the record.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they can hear themselves laughing.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:So this just came out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, that's that.
Marc:How's your wife doing?
Guest:She's good.
Guest:She's doing a lot of writing.
Guest:She writes, you know, non-funny stuff.
Guest:Articles on all kinds of subjects.
Marc:How is she still like being Jewish?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's still in?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think we've never been more happy with the, you know...
Guest:We found a Sephardic congregation in Los Angeles that we feel like at home in.
Guest:And it's great.
Guest:You know, I grew up in a Moroccan synagogue, so all the tunes that I grew up with are these Moroccan tunes, the Ladino tunes.
Guest:And so, like...
Guest:It's hard to find it, and when you do find it, it kind of excites something in you from your childhood.
Guest:You recognize the melodies.
Guest:Yeah, so just that alone.
Marc:Is that primarily what makes it different, a Sephardic congregation?
Marc:I mean, are these people from mostly America, or are they people... No, it's mostly...
Guest:You have a mix of... Here in L.A., you mostly get Iranians.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Persians.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Persian Jews.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Beverly Hills, baby.
Guest:Beverly Hills.
Guest:But you get some Iraqis.
Guest:You get some Turks and some Moroccans and Israelis.
Guest:It's just a nice eclectic mix of accents and stuff.
Guest:And I find it's just...
Guest:You know, for me, it's more fun.
Guest:You know, it's a more fun, because it's what I grew up in.
Marc:Well, yeah, certainly it's probably better than your sort of run-of-the-mill, middle-to-upper-middle-class Orthodox congregation.
Guest:Yeah, there's something about that that, you know, I'm sure it's great for a lot of people.
Guest:Is it Orthodox?
Guest:Yeah, it's Orthodox.
Guest:But in Sephardi, you don't even have Orthodox.
Guest:It's everything.
Guest:You have people who are all different levels of observance, and they all get together.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they just, which I love about it.
Guest:There's like less segregation in terms of where you stand.
Guest:There's no label for it.
Guest:Colorful yarmulkes?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Colorful yarmulkes and round Torahs.
Guest:And show-off italicis?
Guest:No show-off italicis.
Guest:Plain white mostly.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:No one's coming back from Israel with the colored fringe and...
Guest:No, I think that's, that's more like the, I find like conservative congregations, they go crazy with their tallest.
Guest:It's like, yeah, that's true.
Guest:It's like they have tallest flair or something.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:Yeah, no, yeah.
Marc:They come back with, but you know, the yarmulkes, are they the big ones?
Marc:The kind that look like hats?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But they're like beaded or woven?
Guest:Woven, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I have a bunch of those.
Marc:You do?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're not, you're wearing a Ralph Lauren yarmulke now.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:This is the most comfortable hat.
Guest:It's like this floppy kind of thing.
Guest:Do you wear your yarmulke out?
Guest:Usually only on Shabbat, you know, not during the week.
Guest:No?
Guest:Why not?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Just not my custom.
Marc:So you're making up the rules for your orthodox practice?
Guest:Well, again, it's like Sephardim.
Guest:Not all Sephardim wear yarmulkes all the time.
Guest:But was always Sephardim with you or was it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All right.
Guest:But when my wife converted, she converted not with Sephardim and like, you know, in an Ashkenazi kind of thing.
Guest:And I went along, but it was like I didn't feel connected in that way.
Marc:So what?
Marc:So now she's coming around to Sephardim?
Guest:No, she loves it.
Guest:It's a party.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, when you go there.
Marc:So she was more Jewish than you at one point?
Guest:Oh, probably still.
Guest:There's a purity to it because they come in without the baggage.
Marc:Sure, and they really want to learn it and appreciate it, and if they're in it for the right reasons, you've got to lock it in with all the belief.
Guest:Yeah, she brought me back into it.
Guest:I had a lot of hang-ups and anger, and I'm glad I'm rid of them all, you know?
Marc:Because you got brought up in the old-school Ashkenazi, but not Lubavitcher, though.
Guest:Not Lubavitch, no.
Marc:Just below that.
Marc:Pre-Lubavitch.
Marc:Like, that's the next level.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You didn't go full above it.
Marc:Half above.
Marc:Half above.
Marc:So, all right, so you got the comic, and this is a life's work, and this is just the first book of you talking about you making a comic.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And your relationship with Harvey P. Carr, and then it ends with you sort of starting to interview people.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so this is going to be an ongoing thing of your journeys in life from that period, which is, what, a decade ago?
Guest:about a decade ago yeah maybe 14 years ago so you got 14 years of stories that you're going to embark on with the comics right so right so yeah i'm going to put out for a year but they're just going to they're going to jump around in time too what was the magazine you put out the comical oh yeah i remember yeah you had you on the cover yeah i remember i had a big fight with uh with one of the sponsors about it oh no people didn't know who you were yet yeah they barely know now
Guest:Three people that knew you were a genius.
Guest:And I was like, I'm putting Mark on the cover.
Guest:And he goes, pick anybody more of a profile than Mark.
Guest:Just give me somebody.
Guest:Because he was sponsoring the magazine.
Guest:He goes, no one's going to pick it up if they don't.
Guest:He goes, look, I like Mark Maron.
Yeah.
Guest:He's funny, but you don't understand the magazine business clearly.
Guest:You can't just put who you like on the cover.
Guest:I'm like, I'm putting him on the cover.
Guest:Well, thanks for going to bat for me.
Guest:That was my, yeah.
Guest:Cover of the comical.
Guest:I feel like it's all cosmic, you know?
Guest:Like, here I am now.
Guest:I'm like, you're... Again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:with harissa sauce here again with croissants and harissa sauce and a cd and a fucking comic book and everything but that's got to be karma right that's got to be something karmic karmic about that yeah yeah i owed it to you because of the comical but you didn't know you didn't know about the comical it was the first time i ever told you no i what do you mean it was i was on the cover of someone i must have seen it i don't remember that well
Guest:But you didn't know that I went to bat for you.
Guest:No, thank God.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know.
Guest:I don't want to hurt you at the time.
Guest:The life changer.
Marc:Sorry, buddy.
Marc:I was going to put you on the cover of the magazine No One Buys, but then I... But then the guy who's giving me money said, less people will buy it and no one's buying it now.
Marc:but i kept you on there yeah and i didn't lose the sponsor yeah that was my big my big stand oh thanks buddy i'm glad to be part of that and then yeah this is full circle yeah now i'm giving it i'm giving it back that's what i'm saying it's karmic so what about are you gonna have kids or what i hope i hope so you just seem like the guy who's gonna have kids i want to have kids oh you're trying not yet but i want you know how to do it right yeah
Guest:you want to coach me no just want to make sure you know what you're doing yeah yeah um i want to yeah in in the near future i'm just trying to like get all your ducks in a row yeah i feel like it's happening you know yeah are you doing a lot of stand-up
Guest:Um, not as much as I was.
Guest:I'm doing, uh, I think we're doing a show together this week at the Comedy Store.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:On Thursday night.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:For Skyler?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, uh, I haven't been doing as much.
Guest:I started doing one-man shows, and I've been- Oh, yeah.
Guest:I did Edinburgh last summer.
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Marc:I remember talking to you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And that went really well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I'm doing it again this summer.
Guest:And what's your wife?
Guest:She's writing for a living?
Yeah.
Guest:She's writing for a living.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just do this.
Guest:I do the podcast, the Modern Day Philosophers podcast.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We talk about philosophers.
Guest:Yeah, we did that once.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's still going strong?
Guest:Going strong.
Guest:Well, good.
Guest:Just did one with George Wallace.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How was that?
Guest:Oh, fun.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That guy is good energy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:He's a big boy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's like nine feet tall, that guy.
Guest:Yeah, he's towering over you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But like, you know, just jovial, fun, warm guy.
Guest:Is he still in Vegas?
Guest:He's in Vegas, yeah.
Guest:Like forever in Vegas, right?
Guest:Well, he says he's going to get out of Vegas now.
Guest:He's going to start doing more stuff.
Guest:He ended his Vegas run.
Guest:He was telling me on the podcast he's starting to do some television hosting and all kinds of other things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was in Vegas a long time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And one of the things we talked about was his whole dream in life was to be in Vegas.
Guest:And then he accomplished it.
Guest:And then he's like, what do I do now?
Guest:Really?
Guest:That was the whole dream?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My dream is to never go there.
Guest:I can't understand that dream either.
Marc:Never have to go to Vegas is my dream.
Marc:People are like, you play Vegas?
Marc:I'm like, why?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Right.
Guest:It must be like some romance to the days of Don Rickles and Jerry Lewis there that he probably grew up with.
Marc:But I think that people are more business-minded.
Marc:If you can get one of those residencies, you got a year on the books for a set amount of money.
Marc:You got a contract.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I think that's appealing to some cats.
Marc:Yeah, probably.
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:Like, you're doing, like, what, three, four shows a week?
Marc:They put you up?
Marc:You know, you can eat at the hotel or whatever?
Marc:It's starting to sound depressing.
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Marc:It was depressing, you know, right at the beginning that, you know, you want to be secure for the year.
Marc:But I remember one time I used to work at a place in a hotel
Marc:That fucking catch in Princeton.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Do you remember that place?
Guest:Do I?
Guest:Why do I think I do?
Guest:I think I was there once.
Guest:I believe it was in a hotel.
Guest:Yeah, it was definitely in a hotel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Was I there with Ralphie?
Guest:I used to tour with Ralphie, and I went to a lot of these places.
Marc:It's a little place.
Marc:Ralphie Mae?
Marc:Yeah, maybe it wasn't that.
Guest:It was a long time ago.
Marc:I'm thinking of something.
Marc:A long time ago, but I remember it was like you had to eat at the employee's lounge, the employee's restaurant downstairs, where you had a buffet for the people that worked at the hotel.
Marc:It was depressing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sitting there in that weird subterranean lunchroom, and you stayed at the hotel where the club was at.
Marc:There was a Hyatt in Princeton.
Marc:Yeah, that's never fun.
Marc:It wasn't fun, dude.
Marc:There's a lot of moments that are not necessarily fun.
Marc:But, you know, you look back at him, you're like, ah, those are the good old days.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now I'm looking back at them, I'm like, is there a comic book there?
Guest:A shit gig comic book?
Marc:That'd
Marc:a great comic book.
Guest:Hell gigs?
Guest:I'm writing all the stories of being a stand-up in a comic book.
Guest:My life is a stand-up.
Guest:Alright, so let's wrap it up.
Guest:When's the first one come out?
Marc:March 1st.
Marc:And then what?
Marc:For a year?
Marc:For a year.
Marc:And the record, Danny LaBelle, the nicest boy in Barcelona, performed for 38 people the day after a terrorist attack and 7 Sephardim.
Guest:I have a 7 Sephardim guarantee on all my...
Marc:That's happening.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the comic book's got some nice Harvey Picard stuff, and that's a sweet little relationship you got with that guy.
Guest:He kicked off everything for me because I was very insecure.
Guest:I feel like I'm the most secure I've ever been now, but I was very insecure, and I was scared, and I had...
Guest:very low ambitions yeah and then i saw this movie american splendor and i was like oh this guy reminds me of me yeah and he did something with his life like he's he's got a movie made about him yeah and and like it brought back i'm like oh that's what i always wanted to do what i used to make comic books when i was a kid and this guy does it as an adult i could do it you know and how'd you call him
Guest:He was in the phone book.
Guest:Because in the movie, he had this opening scene about how happy he was to be in the phone book.
Guest:It meant he was somebody to see his name and print in the phone book.
Guest:And I thought, maybe he's still in the phone book.
Guest:And I called him expecting that it was a stupid, crazy idea.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then...
Guest:His voice answered the phone, Harvey Pekar on the other line, and I immediately like lost my voice to nervousness.
Guest:I was so nervous that it actually worked.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then he got me talking and I got more comfortable.
Guest:I remember like my heart was beating through my chest.
Guest:I'm like, oh my God.
Guest:Well, I wasn't planning for him to actually pick up.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:that's hilarious and then and then uh i made this stupid uh announcement to him on the phone because i said i want to get my writing published and and nobody wants to publish it i'm starting out stand-up comic and i submitted some places and i don't even hear rejections i don't hear anything yeah i said i wish i could do what you do and just put it on myself and he just goes you can yeah and that just shook my my brain when he's i was like wait a minute i can he goes yeah just figure it out find a way and do it and
Guest:And then I said, okay, I will.
Guest:And then I hung up and I'm like, well, I can never call this guy again if I don't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, because then I just look like a liar.
Guest:So that just forced me to make that magazine that you were on the cover of.
Guest:I just needed to make something so I could keep calling him and have a friendship.
Guest:And I was just like, you know, the guy was a hero to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you don't want to spoil it because it comes sort of full circle.
Guest:It's kind of cute in a mystical way.
Yeah.
Marc:All right, buddy.
Guest:Well, I'm glad you're doing well.
Guest:Yeah, thanks so much for having me back on.
Marc:Great to see you.
Guest:Thanks for the pastries.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And tell me when you're having a kid.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I will.
Guest:I'll invite you.
Marc:We'll do a podcast about it.
Marc:While she's in labor.
Marc:All right, buddy.
Marc:All right, so you got the deal.
Marc:That's Danny.
Marc:Thank you, Danny, for the croissants, the kosher croissants.
Marc:I feel like I was rude, and you're probably listening.
Marc:I'm ungrateful.
Marc:I get straight with God.
Marc:That's what I got to do.
Marc:As I said before, Danny's, you know, you get the comic book, fairenoughcomic.com.
Marc:You can get Modern Day Philosophers.
Marc:There's a podcast on iTunes and his new album, The Nicest Boy in Barcelona, on iTunes as well.
Marc:A lot going on, that kid.
Marc:Anyway, so like I said before, you know, Bill Janowitz, I love Buffalo Tom.
Marc:I haven't seen him.
Marc:I've never met him, but I don't know what he's been doing.
Marc:And I was nervous about that.
Marc:I was just nervous because it was like one of those things where it's sort of like, is everything okay?
Marc:What have you been up to?
Marc:But they got a new Buffalo Tom record out, which is nice.
Marc:And it's called Quiet and Peace.
Marc:It's out tomorrow.
Marc:I believe they're going to be at the Teragram Ballroom here in L.A.
Marc:this Saturday performing all of Let Me Come Over, I believe, all the way through.
Marc:Two shows.
Marc:I don't know what the ticket situation is, but I know that I'm supposed to go.
Marc:Probably the early one before I do comedy.
Marc:And he's here.
Marc:I'm a big fan of the band.
Marc:I've just been curious what he's been up to and how life is for Bill.
Marc:So this is me and Bill Janowitz.
Bill Janowitz.
Guest:You have the Stones books, right?
Marc:Let me see.
Marc:I don't have the 33 and a third one.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:I brought that for you.
Guest:The Rocks Off is the other one.
Marc:Yeah, that was your big book on the Stones.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Blockbuster.
Marc:But what compelled you?
Marc:I mean, did it start with the writing on Exile in this 33 and a third?
Marc:They asked me to write a 33 and a third, and I was going to write one about Class Clown, but I find the exercise of writing so painstaking and relentless for the actual payoff that I don't want to do it anymore.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm sort of in that state right now thinking about another project.
Marc:Like what?
Yeah.
Guest:Like, what's the next project?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't even want to kind of... More music writing?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, more music writing.
Guest:So it's trying to find that kind of thing you want to dedicate yourself to.
Guest:And it's like, is it going to be compelling for me?
Guest:Is it going to be commercial enough?
Guest:It takes so much time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're worried about selling a book.
Guest:Not selling so much as like, I got other things.
Guest:I got the band, I got a family, I got a day job, I got blah, blah, blah.
Guest:So it's like, what am I?
Guest:I mean, that really, the last one took like, I did it in an intense period of time.
Marc:What, the rocks off?
Marc:Rocks off, yeah.
Marc:And what was the angle?
Marc:I got it, but I have hardly any time to read.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I started with this one because I really did want to write on Exile.
Guest:I loved the idea of this 33 and 3 series.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, it's great.
Guest:They do a lot.
Guest:Yeah, and this was the early-ish days, you know, like when you could still go, hey, I have this idea.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Nobody's picked Exile yet, you know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But my friend Joe Pernice from the Pernice Brothers, the Mountain Boys, yeah, he did one.
Guest:What band?
Guest:Were they in a band?
Guest:Pernice Brothers?
Guest:Joe was in the Scud Mountain Boys and the Pernice Brothers were a part of a band.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And Joe still plays.
Guest:He plays with Raymond from Teenage Fan Club.
Guest:He's up in Toronto now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He and I went, we went to UMass Amherst together.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So he had done one.
Guest:So I said, hey.
Guest:What did he do?
Guest:Which one?
Guest:He did Meet His Murder.
Marc:And it was sort of a, well, it was a novella.
Marc:You know, it's like, I can't, I've never walked into the Smiths.
Guest:I would have locked into him for sort of How Soon Is Now era.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Meet His Murder.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And the Hat Full of Hollows record.
Guest:But after that, yeah, I mean, the whole Morrissey solo thing, I just don't know why people- I don't know where- It's as much of a comedy show as anything.
Marc:But you're like around my age.
Marc:Did I miss it?
Marc:There seems to be a chunk of time where I just was not, maybe I just wasn't paying attention to music.
Marc:I don't know what happened.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that would have been what?
Marc:Like 84.
Guest:As I was getting out of high school, I think,
Marc:Oh, so that was it.
Marc:I seem to push back on what was legitimately punk rock and fringe music.
Guest:I don't know why.
Guest:Yeah, I'm similar.
Guest:I mean, I was into sort of the earlier punk rock stuff, but not so much like Dead Kennedys or then sort of the hardcore.
Guest:And in Boston, so I moved to Boston when I was like 16, and hardcore was...
Guest:It was huge.
Guest:Where'd you come from?
Guest:I grew up on Long Island.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What town?
Guest:Huntington?
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Jewish guy?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I even did a DNA test.
Guest:I thought for sure some Jewishness would do that.
Guest:No, no Jewish.
Guest:Wait.
Guest:I grew up culturally half Irish, half Italian.
Guest:The Janowitz is kind of a little red herring in the...
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:How'd that get in there?
Guest:Janowitz.
Guest:Yeah, we're trying to figure that out.
Guest:It's Janowitz.
Guest:So it's sort of a bastardized Eastern European thing.
Guest:My father's grandfather came from somewhere.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:We heard Russia, but- That sounds right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're Irish-Italian.
Marc:Irish-Italian.
Marc:My mother's Italian, yeah.
Marc:Huntington's, is that Italian-Irish town?
Marc:Yeah, just like a bar every corner and the best pizza in the world.
Marc:And you got a big family?
Guest:I'm the oldest of five.
Guest:Five?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Catholic family?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Full on.
Marc:Oldest of five.
Marc:So you got a bunch of, like, how young's the youngest?
Guest:The youngest is 15 years younger than me, so what am I, 51?
Guest:I don't even want to do the math.
Guest:Wow, no kidding.
Guest:Yeah, he's got kids of his own, though.
Marc:You got kids, too?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, I got an 18-year-old girl and a 13-year-old boy.
Marc:No kidding.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you got started out pretty, like, you know, around the right time.
Guest:I was in the 30s, yeah, 30s.
Marc:All right, so, like, because the first I remember Buffalo Tom, I, you know, it was, I got the, I probably got the Bird Brain album first in the, when was that, the late 80s?
Marc:Like 90, maybe 1990, 1989?
Guest:Yeah, 89 for Bird Brain.
Marc:Right, and then I went back and got the first one with Sunflower Suit on it somehow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:SST, so that was the hardcore label, you know, the Black Flag label.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I was going to say that the stuff that sort of makes sense to me in terms of punk rock was when Husker Du sort of married it all together, the energy with- Right.
Guest:And so we were, the three of us in Buffalo Tom were very much influenced by Husker Du and the replacements at Minneapolis, but also the Boston bands.
Guest:I know you were in Boston, so Mission of Burma.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's a band called the Moving Targets.
Marc:Yeah, I remember them.
Guest:Fantastic band.
Guest:Really underrated, like unknowns.
Marc:I kind of like, I remember like the era that you were there, but so you leave Huntington at 16?
Marc:82, yeah.
Marc:And you just, what, run away from home?
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Guest:Now, my father got a job up in Providence, so we moved to this town called Medfield, which is sort of between Providence and Boston and Massachusetts.
Guest:Went from this town where I had all these bands.
Guest:I had my own band.
Guest:I had all my friends.
Guest:I grew up there.
Marc:What, from Huntington?
Marc:You had a band in Huntington in high school?
Marc:Yeah, I was like a teenager.
Marc:When did you start playing guitar?
Guest:I started playing like 12, 13.
Marc:What kind of music were you playing in high school?
Marc:That's a good question.
Guest:You're 52?
Guest:Yeah, 51, yeah.
Marc:51?
Guest:Yeah, you know, this kind of stuff, Stones, but it was a time where Talking Heads and Clash and Joe Jackson and that kind of stuff was- Was just coming out.
Guest:Was coming out, and so-
Guest:We were, you know, we went from playing like half Stones and half like Neil Young covers to, you know, putting in Psycho Killer or this and that.
Guest:Oh, you did, yeah.
Guest:But it was like, you know, it was a conservative era out on Long Island and probably still is.
Guest:It's like, until like the Alternative Station came down there after I left.
Guest:It was still very much, I remember.
Guest:Weren't there some punk bands from there?
Marc:Weren't the dictators from Long Island?
Guest:They were from, where were the dictators from?
Guest:Like Bronx maybe?
Guest:Oh, maybe.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:The Ramones of Long Island?
Guest:Ramones of Queens.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:yeah but i mean i'm talking like real long island yeah yeah this is like north shore of long island it was very much the grateful dead lacrosse right southern rock right you know even in like the late 70s yeah nothing wrong with that and the stones were getting criticized by you know the dudes were you know playing disco or or for for yeah for the some girls records yeah you know so that's the kind it was and i remember being at this battle of bands yeah you knew guys that turned on the stone oh yeah
Guest:Well, I remember being, exactly.
Guest:Oh, man, this is disco.
Guest:Yeah, what the fuck, man?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But then I remember this great battle of bands where there was this band called Plastic Device who came out.
Guest:In my memory, they were like in jumpsuits like Devo or something.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:And they launched into I'm So Bored With the USA.
Guest:And the kids in the high school auditorium booed them up.
Guest:Not off stage, but booed them because they're anti-American.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So they just weren't ready.
Marc:They weren't ready yet.
Marc:But I think there's still pockets of Long Island that aren't ready now.
Marc:That's why they're out on Long Island.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I think there's a lot of Trump support down there on some areas of the island.
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:Dug in, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Dug in old time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Jingoistic nut jobs.
Marc:It's a protection kind of thing.
Marc:So you get up to Providence, and Providence, but you weren't in Providence.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I was outside of Boston, but it was like in the middle of nowhere.
Guest:So I went from this really kind of thriving town where you could really get around yourself, hitchhiking, bus, whatever, beaches, downtown, record stores, to this literally one stoplight town.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A nice, beautiful town, but in the middle of nowhere.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So it took a while.
Guest:It was a depressing time, but, you know.
Marc:You finished high school there?
Guest:Yeah, finished high school there, then went up to UMass.
Guest:And Chris, actually, from Buffalo, Tom, he kind of came from Huntington as a kid, too, and moved to Medfield when he was there years before me.
Guest:But we met at UMass.
Guest:He's two years older.
Marc:So it's just three of you in the original band?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Tom McGinnis, I remember him.
Marc:I mean, I don't know if I know him.
Marc:I feel like I met him before.
Guest:Is that possible?
Guest:He's a real quiet guy.
Guest:He's the only native New Englander in a band.
Guest:He grew up up in Andover, and he went to UMass.
Marc:So you went to UMass, and that's where you met Chris and Tom?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you guys started playing together.
Guest:Yeah, so we were all in other bands, but- What band were you in?
Guest:It was just, nobody.
Guest:It was called, well, in high school, I was in a band called Rambunctious Llamas, which became some other name album.
Guest:You know, it was just high school kids.
Guest:But Tom played bass in his cousin's band.
Guest:And actually, do you know Tim O'Hare, producer?
Guest:He did like Sebedo records, and he worked on our first record.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:Great producer out of that whole Fort Apache scene.
Guest:He worked on our first record.
Guest:He was in a band with Tom, actually.
Guest:And they were called, played a mutton, and then they were called Skyler Hinkle.
Guest:But I was a high school kid.
Guest:with like these college kids uh going up to andover during christmas break and i saw tom playing bass and they were playing these original songs and his cousin was amazing wrote really great songs yeah this whole bowie kind of vibe to him and it just sort of blew my mind that people could could and they were already sort of playing you know like jumping jack flash in boston or the right right oh yeah it's like sort of high school whoa jumping jack flash where was that that was over near the fenway
Guest:yeah man burned down yeah yeah so that was that moment where you're like oh you can write songs yeah and I and also Tom was really handsome and I wanted to be in a band with that guy because but we stuck him behind the drums yeah yeah so yeah we kind of it was just
Guest:It's just the era where Jay Mascus was around and those guys, and there was a lot of equipment down in people's basements.
Marc:He didn't go to school there, though, right?
Marc:He did.
Guest:He went to UMass down the street from his house, right?
Guest:Yeah, he grew up in Amherst.
Guest:And they were already going.
Guest:By the time we formed, they had already put out their first record.
Guest:Bug?
Guest:No, the first one, self-titled.
Guest:The one with Repulsion on it.
Guest:And then You're Living All Over Me was second.
Guest:And that was coming out or came out right around the time we were forming.
Guest:And so there was shared amps and drums in these houses in Northampton the next time over.
Guest:And so guys would just get together at parties and jam, and that's kind of how we got going.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, a lot of down time.
Guest:And so those guys each wanted to learn different instruments.
Guest:I was already sort of singing and playing and writing my own songs.
Guest:So Chris jumped to bass, and Tom jumped to drums from bass.
Guest:And he didn't know how to play drums?
Guest:no he was um he had been fooling around in drums that is you know with his own band but it was his other drummers set when so you know it'll be left at his mom's house kind of thing right right so all right so you guys are all hanging out up there in amherst and jay's around yeah well what was the scene was he like did everyone consider him a mastermind of some kind or was it just equally everyone equal it was a really small group of people like so you know black flag would come through or the replacements and it
Guest:It would be like, you know.
Guest:Replicements came through?
Guest:Yeah, you know, Student Union Ballroom kind of shows.
Marc:So, like, they were at their, that was the top of their game, right?
Guest:Yeah, so I first saw them at the channel on, I guess it was Tim, as Tim was coming out.
Marc:That's a little later, right?
Marc:That would have been 86.
Guest:five and then there was only one more after that wasn't there really well no please don't tell us don't tell us so that was the last one i think so i'm not don't yeah yeah yeah i kind of lost track sure sure um but yeah bands like that would come through and the pixies you remember do you did you know that area at all sheans there was a pub called sheans well i knew like i knew people around the pixies uh but i didn't know them personally i mean
Marc:It was like, I was on my way out.
Guest:Joey and Charles were up at UMass as well, but they didn't form the band until they went back to Boston, but they would come back and play, and there was this basement place in Sheehan's, and there would be like, you know, maybe 50 people max.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that, you know, so we'd see a lot of the same faces.
Guest:So when Jay and Lou and Murph started to make it big, they were still getting grief from sound men around there.
Guest:And, you know, it was really hard to get gigs there because it was the 80s and it was very much the 80s there, you know.
Guest:So like the only bands that people really wanted to go see in mass was like reggae and blues and stuff they could dance to and drink to, you know.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:College town.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Jay was still using pretty much like almost the same size rig he has now, you know, two full stacks in like a tiny little club and mirrors.
Guest:I remember mirrors falling off the wall at this place called Loasis and breaking.
Guest:And, you know, he had guys in tears, you know, because he was just- Too loud?
Guest:Too loud, but he didn't give a fuck.
Guest:It was very punk rock.
Guest:People would be at him and you've met him and he's just kind of, you know, stone-faced.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, he's gotten a little warmer.
Marc:oh absolutely yeah you know what i mean he's as he's become more of a guru something yeah something gives i knew a woman who i think was like maybe the pixie's first manager before they got big and i can't remember i should know her last name but i can't remember ann her first name and it's real no it bothers me because you know we had it's things just disappear yeah brain
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:Well, I remember a lot of that era.
Guest:I mean, because we got going soon after that, like at the Fort Apache.
Guest:And Fort Apache was like the sort of cohesive element of Boston.
Guest:Where was that?
Guest:Well, the first one was down in Roxbury.
Guest:So it was really, that's where the name came from.
Guest:It was a really rough era.
Guest:And that was a studio?
Guest:Yeah, it was a warehouse.
Guest:What was the guy's name, Tim O'Hare?
Guest:Tim O'Hare, but I mean, Tim was just one of the sort of guys, it was like a clubhouse of guys like Sean Slade, Paul Coldery, Lou Giordano, and Gary Smith, and Joe Harvard.
Guest:Joe Harvard is actually Joe Pernice's cousin.
Guest:Then they moved to Cambridge, and that became sort of the big up in Camp Street where Rounder Records was.
Marc:Right, right, yeah, yeah.
Guest:What year was that?
Guest:They moved up there right around the time we were starting, so like 88, 89, and they had two going for a while, and then they moved again nearby.
Guest:But that was sort of the big cohesive element of Boston.
Marc:And who was recording there?
Guest:Well, I mean, the Pixies started there, Big Dipper, Throwing Muses, Dinosaur, Lemonheads, Juliana, and the Blake Babies.
Marc:Yeah, Blake Babies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:all those cats yeah and then you know then bands from outside started coming as soon as like bands like the pixies and throwing muses started making big waves overseas you had radiohead come in and hole and then you know paul and sean all the ford apache yeah yeah and that was just mixing it was just a studio yeah huh yeah uncle tupelo did a record out there and it was a real i mean amazing discography so so what gets what gets mascus because i talked to him about
Marc:doing your first record, and it seemed to be kind of a hazy thing to him.
Marc:Like, you know, he didn't completely own it in a way.
Marc:Like, he was like, I did, but we were all over it.
Marc:I think he felt insecure about his capacity at that time as a producer.
Guest:Yeah, I think a lot of people misread him that way.
Guest:They think he's being...
Guest:uh standoffish or something but he's a pretty humble modest guy and he didn't really i mean that first record was done in in like different sessions over months oh right you know so we started it with tim o'hare and then uh sean and tim sean slade and then jay came in like somewhere in the middle of that and then jay did all of our second record
Guest:Oh, he did.
Guest:Yeah, with Sean Slade.
Guest:And then we went on to Sean Slade and Paul Coldry for our third record.
Marc:The first record's got Bus and Sunflower Suit on it.
Marc:That's right, yeah.
Marc:I love those songs.
Marc:Oh, thank you.
Marc:Thanks so much.
Marc:And Birdbrain's the second one?
Marc:Birdbrain's the second one.
Marc:Yeah, it's a little bit darker for the most part.
Marc:I love Birdbrain.
Guest:Enemy, Fortune Teller, Birdbrain.
Marc:Those are the best.
Marc:Fortune Teller's great.
Marc:I didn't realize that Jay did that.
Guest:Yeah, so that was the one where we had Jay in from start to finish.
Guest:And...
Guest:You know, what we loved about J.J.
Guest:was kind of a vibe guy, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So he was like, he lights up.
Guest:To this day, he lights up when you just sort of talk about guitars and gear and getting sounds for that stuff.
Guest:In terms of the songs and arrangements, he wasn't really involved so much in that, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He did say, this is about Birdbrain.
Guest:He said, this is the hit that's going to make all the girls cry.
Marc:Birdbrain?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:For me, the song on that record that I love is Fortune Tower.
Marc:Yeah, it's kind of like the Who.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Is it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think it's like I can see from Miles' chords going up the neck, I think.
Marc:But I liked all these songs.
Marc:I think Birdbrain was the first song where that album was the one where I'm like, who the fuck are these guys?
Marc:I'm glad that I got that at the beginning.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it wasn't just a three on that record, huh?
Marc:It was.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah, just three.
Marc:But you had the people hanging out or playing guitar on things?
Guest:Oh, yeah, different.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Jay plays on the song Bird Brain.
Guest:I think we have Tom's Cousin sings on, I don't know, one of these songs somewhere along the line.
Guest:But yeah, no, it's been mostly just the three of us.
Guest:We had a keyboard guy later in our career, like in the late 90s for touring and for one record, but he wasn't really...
Marc:So after this record, so you do the first record, and do people pick up on it?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it was just a different era where expectations were much lower.
Guest:You know, the fact that Dinosaur was going across country, never mind to the UK and stuff, and doing well was like...
Guest:God, if we could just get a record on SST Records, that would be a goal, right?
Guest:That would be amazing.
Guest:Then we could go on and graduate college and go on to our normal life.
Guest:So each thing was really like moving it down, moving the goalpost down a little bit until it became this post-Nirvana age where they were signing everything that moved.
Guest:So did you finish college?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, we all finished.
Guest:I was the last.
Guest:I'm the youngest.
Guest:What did you get a degree in?
Guest:I was communications and comparative literature minor.
Guest:Yeah, kind of just, you know.
Marc:But then you just got it done and then you just hit the road?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:So, all right, so you got your record on SST and that was sort of like cool.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but it wasn't like, and then you just started touring?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, we started, I think we actually, our first real tour was over in like Belgium and Holland and the UK.
Guest:Opening for who?
Marc:No, no.
Guest:Well, actually, no, it was mostly our own tour.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We did do a string of dates either on the first or second record opening for Henry Rollins Band, which was pretty intense, you know, in Germany, Rollins.
Marc:What year, which Rollins Band configuration started?
Guest:Sam Hain was, Sim Hain, what's his name?
Guest:The drummer.
Guest:And I forget who else.
Marc:Pretty crazy, huh?
Guest:It was intense.
Guest:They were really serious.
Marc:He's very serious.
Marc:And we were just this sort of like goofy.
Marc:Even when he's funny, he's serious.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I think some of those old school guys, old school SST guys had little time for us.
Marc:I mean, SST was changing around the time we got...
Guest:Because it used to be sort of a community, like the Minutemen and like... Yeah, they sort of developed a circuit and we came a little later.
Guest:SST itself was sort of... And you weren't really punk rock.
Guest:No, we were not.
Guest:But I mean, you know, punk informed.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You seem to be on the cusp of that Buffalo Tom Sound was how music was changing at that time.
Marc:It was a new thing that was going on.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I'm not sure how broad that spectrum is, but it seemed like REM and people like the replacements and stuff that weren't essentially punk rock, but punk in form, but pretty American music.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, we called it college rock back then before alternative.
Guest:Because you're all played on college stations.
Guest:We've toured a lot of colleges, salad bar gigs, whatever you call them.
Guest:But it was still very much a big deal.
Guest:As I talk about low expectations, for R.E.M.
Guest:to have a major label deal at that point was still new.
Guest:And they were starting to play these big halls, like even arenas.
Guest:that was all happening because like bird brain comes out in 1990 yeah how did you get signed from uh from from oh after the first record well yeah i mean it's a long story but we were mostly assigned to this dutch label primarily uh because they were the first one we had gone through our you know records like sending out demo tapes and we had this gun club record that we were huge gun club fans and they had a live record that was put out by this label called mega disc yeah uh rick or mel in holland in belgium
Guest:And so that's kind of how we got some real footing in the Benelux countries, which to this day are our biggest sort of market per capita.
Guest:Really?
Guest:In the smallest countries.
Guest:Where?
Guest:Holland and Belgium.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In particular, Belgium.
Guest:There's this line, and I think it's Singles, or is that the one with Matt Damon?
Guest:Singles?
Marc:Matt Dillon.
Marc:Matt Dillon, right?
Guest:Matt Damon.
Guest:Oh, yeah, oldest.
Guest:where he says, I just found out our band is big in Belgium.
Guest:And it's like this big laugh line.
Guest:And my wife elbows me as we're watching.
Guest:Yeah, you're big in Belgium.
Guest:Yeah, and he licensed us, basically.
Guest:We had a deal in the U.S.
Marc:Because you liked a live gun club record.
Marc:You reached out.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Those were the days you just sent out cassettes and you...
Guest:This guy wrote us a letter and he wants to own everything.
Marc:But it's just so funny.
Marc:That's what drove you.
Marc:The history of SST was the first feather in the cap to get an SST record.
Marc:Now this label's got to be cool.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Megadisc was first.
Guest:They were the first ones to respond.
Guest:So Greg Ginn sat down with us in New York from SST, the guy from Black Flag.
Guest:And I think he sat down with us because we already had Jay involved.
Guest:So I think that was an angle for him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But then we signed to Beggar's Banquet, which was like, that was our papa label for most of our career.
Marc:But then, yeah, but then the next record, Let Me Come Over, 92, that was the big record.
Marc:Yeah, that was sort of, well, you know, it's funny, that started to happen.
Marc:That's the one I gave Jon Stewart, and somehow he managed to get into Rolling Stone Magazine and say you were his favorite band.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I remember hearing about that.
Marc:I did that.
Marc:Thank you very much.
Marc:I don't know if you're still his favorite band, but I remember he asked me at some point what I was listening to him.
Marc:I was telling everybody about Buffalo Tum.
Marc:I had to get David Cross, who was a snob about, he was a big fire hose guy.
Marc:He just liked a certain type of music.
Marc:And like, I kept pushing, like I have bird brain.
Marc:I was like, this is it, this is it.
Marc:And then this one, and finally he relented.
Marc:So I got, I was a, I was an early.
Guest:I didn't know you were that much of a proselytizer.
Marc:Oh yeah, man.
Marc:For Buffalo Tom.
Marc:Appreciate it.
Marc:Sure, I was, yeah.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:But yeah, because bird brain in this record, I like all the songs on this record too, on Let Me Come Over.
Guest:Yeah, so this was like right around Nevermind, you know.
Guest:was happening and we were sort of dialing down the guitars while they were sort of beefing them up yeah that whole sort of sub pop scene um yeah we played the rat with sound garden that's kind of like that's how fast everything changed remember mitch yeah of course i remember mitch mitch is uh mitch is mitch is burned in the retina and and and the ears you know that voice box
Guest:and that 2K.
Marc:Yeah, oh God.
Marc:Or whatever that was.
Guest:Whatever it was, it matted down pre-Trumpian sort of thing.
Marc:Oh, it was something else, that thing.
Marc:It was like a hat.
Guest:Yeah, he was a real character.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and Mr. Butch outside.
Marc:Mr. Butch outside, yeah.
Marc:One time Mr. Butch, like he wanted some money, he wanted to buy some beer, but I thought, he said, I was going to a liquor store, that one he had to walk downstairs into, like right in Kenmore, he was standing up front there.
Marc:He said, give me a pint of...
Marc:give me some black label so i got him scotch you just wanted beer and he's you know i ran into him a few days later he's like oh that fucked me up man i was i he wanted carling black label yeah but uh but yeah butch was uh yeah him and that he had a guitar for a while yeah yeah he would play yeah yeah i remember butch yeah i think they're both dead yeah yeah yeah they both are yeah but yeah so you played the rat with soundgarden
Guest:Yeah, I mean, so there was like this, you know, sort of affinity between those bands out in Sub Pop and Seattle and us and the East Coast stuff.
Guest:But yeah, I mean, Nirvana really, as everybody knows, it was just sort of cracked it all open.
Guest:And so we were on this...
Guest:labels in the u.s it was through beggars but yeah but it was called thirsty year they're mostly a promotional house uh you might know uh mike studo who uh who had um the high five brownies and it became a high five bar brownies down in on in alphabet city yeah so he worked our he worked that let me come over record but then it was wow so taillights fade is sort of getting some spins that's a great song on on the radio silver roof i love that song
Guest:Yeah, thanks.
Marc:Your guitar sounds very specific.
Marc:I listened to the latest record that I just got.
Marc:Is that out yet?
Marc:The new one.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's called Quiet Peace.
Marc:It's coming out on March 2nd.
Guest:How do you get that guitar sound?
Guest:What are you playing?
Guest:Well, a lot of this is credit to Jay.
Guest:This is stuff that I grew up playing too, like humbucker pickup through two bands.
Guest:That's basically it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But you can get very specific with an SG.
Marc:You like the SG?
Guest:Gibson SG.
Guest:I love the SG because it's light and you can kind of get a lot of twang out of it.
Guest:Mostly bridge pickup.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you put that through a JCM 800 or a Marshall with a master volume, so then you can kind of dial in the gain, just mostly straight amp sound.
Marc:And dial in the gain with the second volume.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you can amp up the drive on the second volume.
Marc:Exactly, yeah.
Guest:So that's mostly it.
Guest:And a lot of acoustic underline.
Guest:I guess that's right.
Guest:By the time we met Jay, I had sort of gotten away from the tube amps of my youth and was playing like everybody else to a JC-M8, what do you call it?
Guest:A JC-120, those jazz chorus rolling amps.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Playing like Strat and something kind of jangly.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And Jay's like, let's put these there.
Guest:Here, let's plug this in here.
Guest:So we were getting back into the beef because it was Husker Du and the replacements.
Guest:Everybody was beefing it up.
Guest:And they were all tube guys?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Actually, I mean, talk about specific sounds.
Guest:Bob Mould always had a really specific sound.
Marc:It always sounded like going directly into the board.
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:He's a sweet guy.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It definitely sounded, it kind of cut through, right?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who were the bands that you were aligned with on the East Coast, really?
Marc:I mean, who were the crew that was coming up with you?
Marc:Yeah, Lemonheads, Blake Babies.
Guest:But it's funny.
Guest:We'd go down to New York.
Guest:There was a band called Sleepyhead.
Guest:We'd play the pyramid down in New York.
Marc:Oh, yeah, I remember that place.
Guest:A lot of bands like that.
Guest:And then as soon as you hit the road, you become friends with this teenage fan club from Scotland.
Right.
Guest:Australia, UMI.
Guest:So, and there was really kind of- You saw everybody out there.
Guest:Yeah, we would be playing festivals and so we'd meet a lot of these bands or be on the road for like a stretch of dates with them.
Guest:Sort of like comedy, you'd probably- Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And you had long hair, right, for a while?
Marc:Yeah, sort of mid-90s, yeah.
Marc:Because I think I remember seeing you at TT to Bears.
Marc:That was the only time I ever saw you at TT's.
Marc:Is that possible?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's possible the only time you've seen us?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We'd always come back to TTs, even when we were playing like the Paradise, so we still do a TTs gig.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, man.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:So let me come over.
Marc:It seemed my point was it seemed poised to be like, you know, like to be a hit record.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I remember.
Guest:We felt momentum, though, going into the next record.
Guest:So, 92, some great things happened that year, aside from getting married.
Guest:That was the year you got married?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That record still did pretty well.
Guest:It was a real slow burner.
Guest:It took a while for it to happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it didn't sell shitloads of copies.
Guest:But, you know, we went out on tour with My Bloody Valentine on that record.
Marc:There's a noisy band.
Guest:We played the Reading Festival.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was a great era.
Guest:So we felt a lot of momentum.
Guest:And that's actually when we came out here to L.A.
Guest:to record Big Red Letter Day.
Guest:And that was like, everybody's like, that's where the money was sort of being put behind for us.
Marc:That record.
Guest:Yeah, they were putting their bets on that.
Guest:So we were recording with the Rob brothers.
Guest:But it was very much like, they had done It's a Shame About Ray, which we really liked, by the Lemonheads.
Guest:So that's the one with, you know, It's a Shame About the Song.
Marc:What happened to that guy?
Marc:Where's Dando?
Guest:Evan, he's still playing.
Guest:Yeah, I think he's mostly based out of Martha's Vineyard right now.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So he sort of cashed out and he hangs out?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I saw Evan in April.
Guest:We did a benefit for the ACLU in Boston together.
Guest:Is he all right?
Guest:I think he's all right.
Guest:We only see each other like once a year or every two years now.
Guest:We're connected online or whatever, social, but I don't know.
Marc:I can't really speak to his.
Marc:Sure, sure, man.
Marc:All right, so okay, so now that you're out here, you're recording, this is a big record.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what happens?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, modestly better, you know.
Guest:But, you know, we got buzz.
Guest:I don't think actually we had buzz.
Guest:What was the thing back then on MTV?
Guest:Yeah, I don't remember.
Guest:We were in rotation.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That was the era where you would spend the amount of the record budget on one video.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then you do another one for 100 grand or whatever.
Guest:And you just hope that MTV put it into rotation, you know, high rotation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We were never that big.
Guest:I mean, it was sort of, what we appreciated was that we started playing bigger halls.
Guest:We started to take some opening tours that, you know, that was always a mixed bag.
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:First band?
Guest:Yeah, do we open up for, yeah, do we take this tour opening up for Counting Crows, you know, or do we take this tour that, you know, the label really wants you to go open, you know, for six weeks, open up for the band live or whatever it was.
Marc:Ooh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:They had that one song.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Lightning crashes.
Guest:And there was kind of that era where, like, yeah, I mean, everything was commercial now.
Marc:That was when college rock got commercial.
Marc:That's when it became, quote, unquote, alternative.
Marc:Right.
Marc:A lot of people sound the same.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like Pearl Jam infected everybody, a certain type of band.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, Pearl Jam came out and did their thing, and then it was a whole bunch of guys that started singing kind of a lower mumbly register, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:So, but like, I guess like when I look at, you know, you keep chipping away, but at what point, you know, like you say, you know, you got a family now, you got a day job, you're writing books.
Marc:So like, was there a tangible point in the, in the life of the band where you're like, I gotta get some backup going?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, no, there were multiple times where we just sort of, I think in my mind and literally quit the band like once or twice.
Guest:We pulled ourselves back from that ledge.
Guest:But I got to say that getting to the, you know, it sort of mirrored the 90s almost literally.
Guest:Like by the end of the 90s, we had said, okay, Beggar's Banquet, you've been a great home, but if we're going to keep doing this, we're going to keep pushing it.
Guest:Let's sign directly to a US major label and see if that's going to get us over the hump, right?
Guest:So it was somewhat, I wouldn't say craven, but it's ambitious.
Guest:It's like, you want to kind of, look, everybody else is making these, selling millions of records.
Guest:Why aren't we?
Guest:Or whatever else.
Guest:And it's a ridiculous kind of thing.
Guest:Did it consume you?
Guest:Uh, not consuming, but it, um, it, it, it started, I realized, and I think the band started to realize that we, we didn't make any kind of musical decisions.
Guest:So, uh, maybe one or two where, where with commercial things in mind.
Guest:And that was really about choosing singles and stuff and maybe having a guy, the remix guy makes that single.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, but if you had asked us when we started, what are we going to do that kind of stuff?
Guest:We'd be like,
Guest:Oh no man, vocals are too loud in the mix.
Guest:Everybody's like that, yeah.
Guest:You can't tell us what to do with writing.
Guest:It's a slippery slope.
Guest:I think we mostly stuck to our guns and probably to our own detriment.
Guest:So it took a while to make that last record of the 90s, which was called Smitten.
Guest:And it's kind of a commercially sounding record.
Guest:It has some really good songs, some that I'm not so happy about that we don't play much anymore.
Guest:But so, 99, my first kid was born.
Guest:Tom already had two kids.
Guest:We were sort of sick of the whole thing, the recording, the touring, because we were making a good living, but we had to keep it going.
Guest:You had to stay on the road.
Guest:We had to keep that cycle going.
Guest:Yeah, and we didn't want to do that anymore.
Guest:And it was like the last tour was opening up for the Goo Goo Dolls, who had been this band under us for all these years, and then they...
Guest:Became huge.
Guest:And so we're on this tour and I've got my own daughter now being born and I'm playing to a bunch of girls that are closer to her age than mine.
Guest:You know, 12-year-old, 13-year-old girls that have seen Johnny and these guys on MTV and they're great guys.
Guest:But it was just an unrewarding tour and we said, all right.
Guest:And we got dropped, you know, so that our decision was made for us.
Guest:We got dropped from after Polydor, which was under the whole Seagram's Universal deal, like something like
Guest:after you got after smitten smitten yeah and so then we stopped he stopped yeah we stopped we just said okay we didn't we're not breaking up we're not we're not the kind of guys to say hey we're going on in a reunion i mean a last tour retirement tour whatever you which may have but all of you got out of it without you know major drug abuse you know drug issues or booze issues or yeah outside of maybe some broken hearts and some bitterness you made it out alive yeah you know i'm
Guest:Yeah, I mean, the drinking got, I mean, the drinking on the road was certainly a concern, you know, but I would come home and I would successfully just kind of turn it off.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But that was, I completely credit having my, you know, the girl I met in college, Laura, who I married in 92.
Guest:If I didn't have that sort of rudder type of relationship,
Guest:a force in my life, I'm sure, I just would have been like, yeah, let's tear up the road, man, and I'm like, whatever, just give me everything.
Marc:Still be out there.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But no, the other two guys, we're all like these really, I don't think there's a more level-headed bunch of three guys.
Marc:They're both family guys too now?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And you all live around in New England or where?
Guest:Yeah, so Chris lives right outside of Harvard Square.
Guest:I live in Lexington right outside of Boston.
Marc:And Tom's up in Newburyport up near New Hampshire.
Marc:Yeah, I miss parts of being there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, because it was a very definitive, defining part of my life, the New England part.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And as weird as it all is and as sort of segregated and odd- Parochial.
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Marc:There is a consistency to it that is sort of comforting.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I've been there now since I was 16 years old, but I still feel like I'm more of sort of Long Island kid than I am a New England person.
Marc:You still got family down there?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, of course.
Guest:Yeah, but I don't get down there that much.
Guest:It's mostly friends.
Marc:Well, you know, it kind of balanced out between the two accents.
Marc:You don't seem to have an accent.
Marc:I don't think so, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, that's lucky because both options were kind of annoying.
No!
Marc:It's right, man.
Marc:Sausage.
Marc:Sausage.
Marc:Sausage and sausage.
Marc:Yeah, it's true.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So now, when you stop doing that, I mean, that's like...
Marc:Because this is the thing, one of the reasons was that we never got together.
Marc:Because I followed you for a long time and I love the music.
Marc:And then I was always wondering, when I saw you wrote a book, I'm like, well, that's great.
Marc:But I never know how people handle...
Marc:That evolution.
Marc:Because when I was up against it and my career was going nowhere and there was nothing I could do about it.
Marc:There's nothing you can do to sell a record other than do your best.
Marc:There's nothing you can do to make people come see you do comedy, but do your best.
Marc:And when it doesn't work, that's a horrible, dark moment.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I went through that.
Guest:I was like, what, 30-ish.
Guest:33.
Guest:That was a really low ebb for me.
Guest:And I felt like- After you guys, after Smitten.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I tried to get a solo thing going with another band.
Marc:I like your record.
Marc:I listened to one of them.
Marc:I can't remember which one it was, the last one.
Guest:Yeah, I had a band.
Guest:And in fact, I just had dinner with that guy that was in my band, Crown Victoria, Tom Polche, who'd mixed a bunch of other Buffalo Tom records as well later on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it was a really tough era because it was the era that radio had completely gone mainstream again.
Guest:It was like Limp Bizkit and Creed.
Guest:And there was no hope for sort of a guy that didn't make a huge dent.
Guest:But I tried anyway.
Guest:And that's when I started saying, well, I got to do some other things in life.
Guest:But it was a low ebb because it should have been a really happy time because my daughter was just born.
Guest:But that was...
Guest:That was the most depressed I've probably been since I was 16 and had moved from New York.
Marc:Yeah, because when you do a creative pursuit, there's no easy- It's your identity.
Marc:It's your identity, but there's no easy shift into what after a certain age?
Marc:I mean, fuck, I was in my mid-40s when the wheels came off, and it's sort of like, what am I prepared to do?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Real estate.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Get that license.
Guest:That's what I did.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's what I've been doing.
Guest:That's how I made my ... And that's a weird identity crisis kind of thing almost every ... I mean, I've been doing real estate around Lexington, Massachusetts for like 16 years and I still have a hard time
Guest:It's kind of squaring it all.
Guest:You're probably a known guy.
Guest:Yeah, I am.
Guest:I may make a living.
Guest:It's like, here's my resume.
Guest:I graduate in 89, and I'm in a rock band until 99, so hire me.
Guest:It's like, no, you got to kind of do something yourself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's American.
Guest:You got to pull yourself up by your bootstrap.
Guest:So you went and got a license?
Guest:Got a license.
Guest:Kind of eased into it.
Guest:I was still doing music.
Guest:And Buffalo Tom was still doing stuff.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:We had like an A-side record.
Guest:We actually had kind of a hit record in the UK with a cover of a jam song.
Guest:The B-side was Oasis, so it was this big record.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that was kind of cool.
Guest:So we still kept doing stuff, but it got to a point where we were like, well, if we're going to keep doing this, let's not just be a nostalgia actor, right?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Let's see if we can still write songs together.
Guest:And we were.
Marc:We were all writing songs.
Marc:Well, that's good because you can't really be a nostalgia actor if no one knows who you are.
Marc:That's kind of the point.
Marc:Here are these guys doing their song that they think everybody knows.
Guest:Yeah, that's kind of the truth.
Guest:That's kind of the truth.
Guest:No, no, I mean, we really had this sort of cult audience.
Guest:It wasn't a huge cult audience, but it was worldwide.
Guest:Like, we could just, you know, all through the 2000s, we could pop over to Australia, we could pop over to, you know, Holland or whatever, London, yeah.
Guest:It wasn't, you know, it's not like 3,000 seaters, but it was enough to sort of at least break even.
Guest:800 to 1,000?
Guest:Yeah, and in London or Belgium, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:A couple more, yeah.
Marc:So, well, that's great.
Marc:But, all right, so you're selling real estate.
Marc:You do all right with it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Residential?
Marc:Commercial?
Marc:Yeah, mostly a lot of modern stuff, mid-century stuff.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Around that area, yeah.
Marc:And that's your bread and butter.
Guest:That's like, yeah, that's it.
Guest:I mean, music still brings in dribs and drabs.
Marc:Well, you still sound like you.
Marc:Guitar, the voice, the songs are still sounding like you.
Marc:On that new album, it's not all you singing though, huh?
Guest:No, Chris sings like four songs.
Guest:But Chris is always pretty much from not the first record, but the second record always sang a song or two and then increasingly wrote more and more.
Marc:I guess I noticed him more this record.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:Four, I think.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And where does the book, before we get to the newest record, so you're doing real estate and you're okay, and your wife works probably?
Marc:Yeah, a little bit.
Marc:She's mostly taking care of the kids though, thank God.
Marc:And, but everything worked out.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Uh, yeah, I think so.
Marc:That's well, that's, that's a good story.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Marc:It is.
Marc:Uh, so like, you're not really, you're not really, it's like, not like the music's a hobby or you gave it up necessarily because you didn't really get closure.
Marc:Like you didn't have to, you know, you, I guess what I'm saying is like, you're not one of those people that, that, uh, you're able to accommodate still doing the music without it representing some sort of failure.
Um,
Marc:I hope so.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's still probably the most important thing to you.
Guest:It absolutely is.
Guest:It's still probably too much a part of my identity, but it's like, as an artist, whatever, that's a big word, but...
Guest:that's kind of who i am it's the other stuff that i have a hard time uh i mean you know writing about the stones or whatever that's that's another part but yeah going to have a day job is a weird thing to me still um sure but i it's fascinates me to like when i listen to your show for example or other people's shows and they're interviewing like whatever peers from our era that maybe sold a few more records right didn't or yeah
Guest:Like, how do they keep it going?
Guest:Like, where do you live?
Guest:I live in a really expensive area, so that's part of it.
Marc:You know, those are questions I always wonder about.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's why I sort of asked you about Dando, and you're kind of like, I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, Evan did like a Jell-O commercial when he was a kid, and I know that was paying.
Guest:Back when we knew him, he had like sort of a Jell-O.
Guest:I think he had a song called The Jell-O Fund or something.
Marc:The Jell-O Trust?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, but it is an interesting question is how do people survive?
Marc:And because it's not necessarily part of the mystique to divulge that because they might either be having a hard time or they might be having a very sort of mundane, normal time.
Guest:Yeah, well, the mystique is the big... And that's the word.
Guest:I mean, and not a lot of bands, even from our era where it was all about being real or, you know, stripping away a lot of that.
Guest:Like, I would just go on stage with whatever I was wearing, for example.
Guest:But even bands of our era where it was pretentious to think otherwise...
Guest:Did sort of cultivate mystique, if not themselves and their publicists.
Marc:Sure, right?
Marc:Yeah, but just the nature of you being a band, people assume, even when you know musicians back in the day, if they had a day job, they didn't give a fuck about it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right, they were driving a van.
Guest:Oh, yeah, we had day jobs on the early side until our third album.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But when you're in your 20s, you don't need a whole lot.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:A couple hundred a week.
Marc:But it's sort of interesting to me that at some point for people to... And I think family responsibility makes a big difference.
Marc:You can't really think twice about it.
Marc:No, exactly.
Marc:I've got to do this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:All three of us came from... None of our parents were divorced.
Guest:They were all... Stayed married.
Guest:So we came from these...
Guest:That's a very unusual thing for a band.
Guest:I mean, sort of upper middle class.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:The pragmatic aspect was ingrained.
Guest:I couldn't really, really go off the rails.
Marc:Just something inside you wouldn't let you.
Guest:Yeah, and there's mental illness in our family and struggles with addiction and things like that.
Guest:But the family is such a huge... I got to say, to our credit, it's like you can't...
Guest:Nobody's going to let you go out and just be the guy on Skid Row that didn't make it in the music business.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:In your family.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But you didn't let yourself do that.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Yeah, but you're saying that like the family, they would have thrown you a line.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:I mean, I think I could have easily succumbed if, like I said, if I hadn't been married or had a girlfriend early on.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:to something to come home to.
Guest:Even if I was coming back from tour, I just loved being in bars and hearing bands and drinking.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I think it would have gotten worse than it did.
Guest:What was the experience doing this record?
Guest:It was great.
Guest:So we worked with Dave Minahan.
Guest:Do you know Dave Minahan?
Guest:He plays second guitar in their placements on the last kind of iteration.
Guest:He's been playing with Paul for his solo stuff.
Guest:He was in a band called The Neighborhoods.
Guest:You probably knew The Neighborhoods.
Guest:I remember The Neighborhoods.
Guest:There are three of them.
Guest:yeah oh man that's so funny yeah so he's got a studio in waltham uh much like the old fort apache real raw sort of warehouse space with a ton of old amps and guitars oh yeah so we worked with him and then we had john and yellow who you've interviewed we had him mix it oh yeah and he worked on our he did it he does a lot of good shit yeah he's a great guy he's a good cat yeah he does a lot
Guest:Yeah, he's got an amazing discovery, and it's so different.
Marc:What is it about him?
Marc:What do you like about him in terms of working with producers?
Marc:I mean, having worked with, you know, Mascus, and what does a producer do for you?
Guest:Well, back then, so when we first, on Sleepy Eyed album, we brought, we wanted to, it was a reaction to the record previous, which had been Big Red Letter Day, which was really produced.
Guest:We were out here for two months working with these guys, these old school guys, the Rob brothers.
Yeah.
Guest:and so i said you know let's make a record like tonight's in the night or some girls where we're all in the same room and the amps are buzzing and the snares is rattling and you know it's live my off the mic like that you know that kind of stuff that vibey record and john was up for it and john had done obviously some some dinosaur and sonic youth stuff and we loved his the the way it's and he was just a great guy and he's this total brooklyn kind of funny smart ass guy yeah totally fit our personalities yeah
Guest:So we loved working with him.
Guest:And then, you know, we just moved, kept doing different things.
Guest:And then I saw John, it had been a long time, at the Dinosaur 30th down at the Bowery Barroom.
Guest:And we went out and had drinks afterwards.
Guest:And we were like, he's like, yeah, I would love to do another record with you.
Guest:And I said, we would love to do another record with you.
Guest:But we couldn't get down to New York to record it and stuff.
Guest:So he just ended up mixing it.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Great mixer, though.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And which label's putting it out?
Guest:It's School Kids Records.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, it's through Red Eye Distribution.
Guest:Kind of these guys from, it's this guy, Stephen Judge out of North Carolina.
Guest:And when's it come out?
Guest:March 2nd.
Marc:And it's going to be on vinyl too?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They'll have them send you that.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:I'm going to need the vinyl.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, these Stones books, writing the second Stones book, what did you have to do?
Guest:Yeah, so I wasn't going to write another Stones book.
Guest:I wasn't even sure if I was going to write it.
Guest:I was pretty sure I wasn't going to write another book, but in 2012, before their anniversary, their 50th anniversary, some agent got in touch with me and said, hey, I've got this idea to do 50 tracks, tell the story of 50 years.
Guest:I said, that sounds like a perfect idea.
Marc:Sure, I'd be into it.
Marc:And they'd seen this book?
Guest:Yeah, so he knew me from that.
Guest:Maybe some other thing I had written online or something on a blog.
Guest:So, yeah, I did a proposal.
Guest:I mean, I'm not a real journalist.
Guest:I was learning to be more of one, like how to interview people.
Guest:And I interviewed Andy Johns and Bobby Keys.
Guest:But it was really hard for me to get to the stuff.
Guest:I was really envious of you to sit down with Keith.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think I fanboyed out too much.
Guest:I did all right.
Guest:I would totally fanboy.
Marc:So I met him.
Guest:I talk about that in the preface.
Guest:Just as I was sort of, I don't even know if I had a book deal yet, but I was at this lyrics award.
Guest:Do you know about this?
Guest:It's like Chuck Berry was getting a lyric award from Penn, New England with Leonard Cohen.
Guest:so it was keith and elvis and you know all these guys costello obviously costello was there he's a good guy and yeah and paul simon was there it was this huge thing you did you did a paul simon cover yeah yeah and the simon and garfunkel yeah on the new record yeah yeah and so i was just standing there i'm talking to my friend tom parada who's a novelist uh who's another guy you should maybe talk to a really funny guy um
Guest:Anyway, he's sort of giving the opening remarks at this thing.
Guest:And so we're up in this like ante room before at the JFK Museum.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Paul Simon.
Guest:And Keith is just on the other side of Paul Simon.
Guest:I'm just like, I got to get past Simon.
Guest:How do I get around Paul Simon?
Guest:And then Keith was standing by himself.
Guest:And I said, ah, Keith, ah.
Guest:I just got to tell you, man, I'm just a huge fan, and I'm just like everybody else that's coming up to you is probably saying the same thing, but I just have to say it, right?
Guest:He's like, oh, man, I feel the same way, exactly about Chuck Berry, mate, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I said, yeah, and it's so cool that they're giving him...
Guest:you know, recognition for his lyrics were just, he's, oh, exactly, man.
Guest:He goes, hurry, home drops in our eyes.
Guest:And he just beats his chest a couple times.
Guest:I'm like, man, Keith has just pivoted this awkward situation to like two guys just talking about Chuck Berry lyrics.
Guest:It was like everything I could have hoped
Guest:for you know i'm just gonna leave it there uh but in fact i had told evan that i was gonna be down there i knew evan evan's buddies with like his son and keith and evan's just sort of you know everybody loves evan so i said hey i'm gonna i might meet keith at this thing i'm gonna try it because i'll tell him i said hi so i said oh you know i want to just say evan says like it's all evan he's a good cat man which evan evan dando oh really yeah yeah he's a good cat
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:So, yeah.
Guest:So, yeah.
Guest:I mean, then I just, I mean, I wish I could have gotten to those guys themselves, but I don't think it's an easy prospect for another Stones book, you know?
Guest:Yeah, Mick.
Guest:But I had long conversations with Andy Johns and Bobby Keys and Mary Clayton.
Marc:Good you got that before he kicked it.
Marc:yeah yeah and he was something man he really was it's weird that like you know i over time through listening to a bit of jazz and stuff to really appreciate you know certainly like someone like keys or you know even clarence clemens to a degree where you know it's such a signature sound but it is just that instrument but nobody sounds like bobby keys and he's all over all those records yeah it's kind of insane yeah
Guest:Yeah, and it's not as obnoxious to me as some of the E Street band sax.
Guest:Oh, no, no, I know.
Marc:But I'm just saying that I have a hard time differentiating between jazz players.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:But there's something about rock and guys who come from that discipline, the R&B discipline.
Guest:It's sort of the King Curtis, post-King Curtis, the blow, really belted it out as opposed to nuanced jazz players.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:To fit the rock.
Marc:thing yeah exactly because like you know you it's more of a being heard kind of thing it is right you know and if you get too complicated it ain't no one's gonna give a shit right it's more of a rhythmic style yeah it's a balance man you're right so so the so the stones book it focuses on 50 songs
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I picked 50 and it's not, I mean, it's not a top 50.
Guest:So I was getting a lot of grief.
Guest:You, you picked winter off a goat's head soup as one of their 50 best songs.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:Well, I mean, if you put a gun to my head, it kind of, no, I, I, and I have, and I tried to pick songs from all of their albums.
Guest:I did from all of their albums.
Guest:So I wanted to pick from metamorphosis.
Guest:Oh, no, no, no.
Guest:I should say from all their, there might be something from Metamorphosis on there, but from all their actual releases.
Guest:You know, Metamorphosis is outtakes.
Marc:Weird record?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, it's outtakes.
Guest:Is it outtakes?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's all outtakes and from different eras.
Marc:It's just like that, I think the whole notion of how, not so much how to record a record, but how to sort of like, you know, become a community
Marc:as a band with a bunch of other people around, and then just ride riffs out until they start to make sense.
Marc:Because some of the outtakes that I heard on that remaster, I don't know if they're outtakes, but it's sort of like, or different versions of, what was it, Tumbling Dice?
Marc:Yeah, Good Time Woman.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They picked the right ones generally.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They absolutely did.
Marc:The one thing about outtakes and about bootlegs and stuff like that, it's sort of like, there's a reason that it's not out there.
Guest:Everybody that worked with them, and Andy Johns had said this in every interview, not just the one that I talked to, but he said, they would be the worst band for like two days.
Guest:They're never going to pull this shit together.
Guest:And then all of a sudden, one take,
Guest:the tape was always rolling but right this this is she said this is true for their whole career all of a sudden they would just latch in and that was that was it and it would just magic would happen and that that would be the master so it kind of explains a lot of char maybe this is overstated yeah a lot of charlie's fills are kind of weird because he doesn't know necessarily where the one is like if you think of tattoo you yeah they had been playing that as a reggae song for like six hours yeah yeah and then they then keith just went into this
Guest:downbeat version of it.
Guest:And Charlie kind of comes in on a kind of weird spot.
Guest:And that's the take they use.
Guest:And they went back into reggae for like another two hours.
Guest:But they went back and found that.
Guest:And they're like, oh, we got to put this out.
Marc:See, that's the thing.
Marc:Start me up.
Marc:Did I say start me up on tattoo?
Marc:Yeah, start me up.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He just, because it had been like.
Guest:Yeah, which is, you know, who wants to hear that song ever again?
Guest:It's overplayed.
Guest:But to hear it in that context is interesting, I think.
Marc:No, it's fascinating that they would take the time and just noodle around.
Marc:And, like, it's sort of like I don't have enough dedication to any rabbit hole to stay in it very long.
Marc:Like, I'll get started.
Marc:But, like, with the Stones, like, I'm glad I sort of had a beginner's mind to it, you know, when I saw them in San Diego.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And being sort of a born-again, you know, vinyl guy or just paying more attention than I ever have.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm just getting to stuff that people got to years ago, but that's the great thing about music.
Marc:But the magic is they're just a four-piece operation, and there's no backtracking, and they're carrying each other.
Marc:And they're raw as they've ever been,
Marc:And the songs feel so profoundly full.
Marc:It's a magic to it.
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:I think you skipped the right era.
Guest:Those mid to late 80s, when they got back together, I saw them during those tours.
Guest:And it was like, I just want to go and touch the hem of their garment.
Guest:I just want to see them.
Guest:And it was sort of like, whoa!
Guest:That was a great version of one of these songs that I didn't expect.
Guest:And there was one era where they were taking internet requests.
Guest:And I think they might have even done that in the last tour.
Guest:And it's like trying to get the album track that they don't play.
Marc:Well, they were going to do the whole Sticky Fingers record.
Marc:And they bailed on it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So they started that here at the Fonda, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I didn't get to see that.
Marc:Couldn't get tickets.
Marc:I tried.
Guest:Yeah, and they ended up doing a lot of that record.
Guest:So, I think a big force has been Chuck Lavelle sort of keeping them like, you should go back and learn some of these great songs that your super fans are into.
Guest:You're not gonna lose your fans if you do a down-tempo song.
Guest:I think Mick's nervous.
Marc:He's keeping the show rolling.
Marc:Well, he did Moonlight Mile and the vulnerability of it was just mind-blowing.
Marc:It hits you, doesn't it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because they stick him out there by himself.
Guest:There's a moment like that.
Guest:Did you see the Scorsese movie?
Guest:There's a moment like that where there's an extreme close-up.
Guest:I think it's as tears go by, maybe.
Marc:That movie was sort of sad to me because it didn't seem like they were getting along at all, Mick and Keith.
Marc:It seemed like they were literally trying not to talk to each other.
Guest:Yeah, it could be.
Guest:I think it's always been that way pretty much since the... I think since before the 80s.
Guest:And since then, it's been like a detente here and there.
Guest:I don't...
Guest:I don't know if they're ever hanging out happily together.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, I don't think so.
Marc:All right, man.
Marc:Well, now, thank you for the books.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you for talking to me.
Marc:Thanks for having me.
Marc:It's an honor to be here.
Marc:I'm excited about the new record.
Marc:It sounds like a Buffalo Tom record.
Marc:Yeah, we're still there.
Marc:All right.
Guest:How much longer for the garage?
Guest:Am I one of the last guys in the garage?
Marc:No, we got a little time.
Marc:We got a little time, but you might be one of the last.
Marc:I'm still sort of like iffy about it.
Marc:Like all of a sudden now because they're redoing the house, I'm like, well, maybe I'll keep it.
Marc:Maybe we'll, you know.
Marc:Just like jack it up and put it in a truck and bring it to the.
Marc:I like the new garage, but like, you know, people are starting to really get in my brain about this sort of.
Marc:Now you can't like let nostalgia dictate it.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I don't want to become a nostalgia act.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Keep it vital, man.
Marc:Take care.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:okay so as i said the new buffalo tom record is available tomorrow march 2nd it's called quiet and peace so uh and it sounds like a buffalo tom record i guess i'll play a little guitar hold on
Thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Boomer lives!