Episode 892 - Duncan Jones / Brendon Small
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it welcome to the show uh i'm recording this a little ahead of time just so you know
Marc:That it's not as fresh as usual.
Marc:It's not as freshly baked as usual.
Marc:This was recorded about a week ago because my buddy Brendan, my producer, is on vacation.
Marc:So I don't know why I have to.
Marc:There's no reason.
Marc:You would never know the difference.
Marc:I just want you to know because if something goes down.
Marc:which, you know, everything, there's always shit going down now.
Marc:There's never any, like, maybe we'll have a three-day run where shit doesn't go down.
Marc:So basically the reason I'm giving you this info that it was a little further back that I recorded this than usual is that if something horribly tragic has occurred,
Marc:And, you know, the only thing that's left on Earth is the ability to post a podcast that I didn't know about it.
Marc:So, well, I guess it wouldn't matter.
Marc:Wouldn't have any listeners anyway.
Marc:So let's say that most of the communications in the world are just they go down except for this podcast.
Marc:I can offer you no help, no information about what's happening out there.
Marc:I can't because I pre-recorded this.
Marc:But Godspeed to all of you.
Marc:And, you know, get out and start foraging.
Marc:I guess that's what it's come to.
Marc:I hope you stashed some money because I had no idea this would happen.
Marc:OK, so did I mention today on the show, Duncan Jones is here, the film director.
Marc:He directed me.
Marc:You may have remembered that the movie Moon with Sam Rockwell and.
Marc:He did Warcraft and he did, what is that, Source Code.
Marc:And now he's got a new movie out, which I enjoyed.
Marc:It's called Mute.
Marc:It's going to be on Netflix.
Marc:It's going to be available on Netflix tomorrow.
Marc:He co-wrote and directed this.
Marc:And I've talked to him before.
Marc:I talked to him years ago in another manifestation of media and another manifestation or incarnation of myself.
Marc:Back in the day, Break Room Live.
Marc:It was shortly before I started the podcast, so I haven't talked to Duncan in a while.
Marc:I liked him then, and I enjoyed talking to him this time.
Marc:I think I pushed some buttons, but I'll get to that when I introduce him.
Marc:Also, Brendan Small is on the show today.
Marc:Brendan Small, who you know from Metalocalypse.
Marc:and home movies and from his comedy, from his guitar playing.
Marc:He's a metal dude.
Marc:And he's made this video for his new sci-fi concept record.
Marc:Yeah, that's what's happening.
Marc:And he'll explain it.
Marc:The odd thing is, is that now this has become sort of a science fiction-themed show because Duncan Jones is also a sci-fi guy.
Marc:His films are sci-fi.
Marc:And now I got Brendan on here with his sci-fi guitar work and his new sci-fi video for the guitar work and a sci-fi concept record.
Marc:And I think if there's one thing you know about me...
Marc:is I'm not a sci-fi guy.
Marc:I think I've only seen two Star Wars, to be honest with you.
Marc:I have very little interest in sci-fi of any kind.
Marc:Though I'll read... I don't know that the comics that I did read, when I did read them, were sci-fi.
Marc:I don't think that Hellblazer is really a science fiction comic series.
Marc:It seems like a practical manual for those who are aware of what's really happening in the world.
Marc:Yeah, that's what Hellblazer is.
Marc:John Constantine is just somebody who's dealing with what's really going on in a way that has a handle on it.
Marc:It's sort of a self-help series, that Sandman.
Marc:I guess that Hellblazer.
Marc:I guess Sandman is kind of sci-fi.
Marc:I guess it is, but it's more romantic sci-fi somehow.
Marc:It doesn't involve aliens and spaceships, really.
Marc:Different scapes, levels of things.
Marc:I like Blade Runner as much as the next guy.
Marc:And I talked to Duncan about Blade Runner.
Marc:I like Blade Runner because that's not so far in the future.
Marc:Maybe I enjoy sci-fi if people still move through the world like humans.
Marc:Like there's still some grit and some dirt to it.
Marc:That it's not a complete alien scape.
Marc:And spaceships do nothing for me.
Marc:Zero.
Marc:I get no thrills from spaceships.
Marc:But it just turns out, coincidentally, that we have two sci-fi themed things on the show today.
Marc:I did want to read a couple of emails, I think.
Marc:Because somebody responded... There's a couple of reactions.
Marc:Like this one...
Marc:corrections on your pronunciation and dot, dot, dot.
Marc:Now see that right away.
Marc:When I see that subject line, I, you know, the, and dot, dot, dot is not going to make me feel any better.
Marc:I'm already guarded.
Marc:This is just, I'm, I'm bringing this email up because it's, it's about how these things make me feel, even though maybe she had a good point.
Marc:Maybe her heart was in the right place.
Marc:Hey, Mark, I,
Marc:Osage County is O like O-H and Sage, S-A-G-E like Sage.
Marc:You say something like Osage.
Marc:That is what I said.
Marc:I said Osage.
Marc:So thank you.
Marc:Osage County.
Marc:Got it.
Marc:You didn't have to tell me what I said.
Marc:But I'm okay.
Marc:I'm okay.
Marc:Almodovar.
Marc:Almodovar.
Marc:You said Almodovar.
Marc:See, now I think that's nitpicky a little bit.
Marc:Because I don't even know the difference.
Marc:Almodovar.
Marc:And I said Almodovar.
Marc:Almodovar.
Marc:Almodovar.
Marc:Almodovar.
Marc:See, I'm still, you know, it's, I don't know, six and one maybe.
Marc:But I appreciate you're trying to help.
Marc:You talk to Gina Rodriguez about being a Latino.
Marc:That would be Latina if you are talking about her or women.
Marc:I know that.
Marc:I know that.
Marc:You know, I mean, you know, I know this is helpful, but I, and then she writes, not trying to be a dick or more accurately, a cunt.
Marc:Ruth, with a smiley emoji.
Marc:I'm glad you added that last part because that made me laugh.
Marc:It freed me up a little bit.
Marc:And thank you for the, and because you added that last part, the self-deprecation and knowing from probably living a life
Marc:of being a corrector that you, you have to soften it because you know, it's right to do it, but it's a tough position to be in.
Marc:It's a tough place to be the grammar police.
Marc:It's right.
Marc:It's righteous.
Marc:It, you know, it is very basic and respectful, but you know, from the reactions you get that you qualified it a little bit with the, with the funny thing at the end, but you were being kind of a dick really still, but thank you.
Marc:Here's another one.
Marc:Emails slash text falling through the cracks.
Marc:Mark, I was ecstatic to hear someone else talk about this problem.
Marc:I am the worst at forgetting emails and texts.
Marc:Today, I got a call from someone whose email I completely forgot about in which she asked for help with a client on a fairly urgent matter.
Marc:I felt absolutely horrible when she called, even more so because this was already on my mind from your podcast this morning.
Marc:At least she called to follow up instead of assuming I was ignoring her.
Marc:I'd already been reading a book called Getting Things Done, The Art of Stress-Free Productivity by...
Marc:David Allen and this email slip up made me stop everything and put the practices he advocates into action.
Marc:I created a folder in my inbox called for review slash action.
Marc:I went through my inbox and moved anything I haven't responded to yet to this folder.
Marc:Hopefully this will help at least for work emails.
Marc:I have some personal emails that I never responded to, but I meant to.
Marc:And, and, and the memory of those sometimes haunt me.
Marc:I will think of them randomly, which causes intense stress and anxiety.
Marc:One email in particular from about four years ago still weighs on me occasionally, but now I'm
Marc:It is way too late to respond.
Marc:Text, I have no hope for responding to these.
Marc:I vote we all start calling each other again.
Marc:Regards, Amy.
Marc:Now, obviously, I brought something to that reading, but I don't know about you listening to that, but...
Marc:What what was that email four years ago?
Marc:I mean, I appreciate the sentiment about of this whole thing.
Marc:And I'm glad that we're kindred spirits.
Marc:But what what was that email that's still weighing on you occasionally from four years ago?
Marc:And it's too late.
Marc:You can't just leave us all hanging like that, Amy.
Marc:What was it?
Marc:Okay, listen.
Marc:Brendan Small, a good friend of mine, great guitar player, has a new music video coming out on Funny or Die.
Marc:It's sci-fi, but he talks about it.
Marc:It's from his last record, which is a sci-fi concept.
Marc:Let's talk to him about it.
Marc:Sci-fi Brendan Small right now.
Guest:so i don't think i haven't seen you in a while it's been a while yeah what's happened since i saw you last we probably performed together on stage probably played some music together are you still doing those shows i'm sorry i can't do them at the improv i know you can't i know you can't i know you can't but but uh it's always fun when we do it we're gonna start doing it uh soon again so i'll be asking you at a different theater so like what's named them it's mike mike connealy yeah and then the drummer uh joe travers those goes those guys are both x zappas
Guest:Dweezil Zappa.
Guest:Mike Keneally played with Frank Zappa.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Joe Travers played with Duran Duran.
Guest:He played with Dweezil Zappa.
Marc:And what about Eric Johnson?
Guest:That's Pete Griffin.
Guest:Pete Griffin, yeah.
Guest:He plays in a lot of different bands.
Guest:He's a great bass player.
Guest:And he plays in a band with one of the guys from Mastodon, too.
Guest:Yeah, that'd be fun.
Guest:They're all monster players.
Guest:They're super musicians.
Marc:Because I got together with some other guys and they were good musicians too, but I just wanted to jam a little bit and no one does that.
Marc:No one does it.
Marc:You pros don't do that.
Marc:I need to get into a groove.
Marc:I can do it.
Marc:I need to get into a groove.
Marc:I want to learn how to play with people, but the way I'm going to learn how to play with people is not to work out songs.
Marc:yeah yeah it's it's well you know what the the best thing about those guys and it's like great acting i think at the same point the same time they they they kind of fold in they're just listening to each other they're just paying attention well i gotta learn how to do that and someone's gotta let me do that all right like i played with these other guys you know just i was gonna work out a few songs maybe do a show at largo yeah but after two things i was like i can't do it like you know because like uh it was like well let's start over let's do this let's do that and then one of them they're like why don't you just sing on this one i'm like what are you talking about i'm here to play guitar
Marc:so wait a minute they're good guys what did you want out of that well I thought maybe I could put together like a variety show where I could have an ensemble yeah and do like four or five songs and bring people up and do some stand-up just like what everyone else does just an excuse to maybe get out and play out yeah you know what you want you want a musical director I think I don't think you want to deal with the bullshit
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:Meaning I think you want a guy to set up and have the band ready to go.
Guest:And then if you want to jam, you get Marcus to jam.
Marc:No, I really wanted to do this.
Marc:We put together the songs and they all sounded pretty good.
Marc:But when you're a pro, there's an expectation to sort of like, what are we doing?
Guest:Oh, you just show up and get it done and not fuck around.
Guest:Yeah, what are we doing?
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:And I get that.
Marc:I mean, if I want to jam, I got to find some amateurs.
Guest:Or just pay a bunch of guys to sit around and play.
Guest:That's what amateurs do.
Guest:Play the same, play an A blues like for 45 minutes.
Marc:No, I'm willing to go other places.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:B?
Guest:C?
Marc:No, I could do three chords that aren't the blues.
Marc:I don't need to play blues.
Guest:I know, I know.
Marc:I could play hard rock.
Marc:I've seen you.
Marc:We played a lot of music together.
Marc:Look, Mr. Compression.
Marc:Compression?
Marc:Whatever the fuck you do to your sound.
Guest:My sound.
Guest:It is.
Guest:I have a little gainier sound.
Guest:I have a more modern high gain sound than I think you do.
Guest:Is that what it's called?
Guest:Modern high gain?
Guest:Yeah, but I respect old amplifiers and old instruments, but I also like modern instruments as well.
Guest:Yes, I do.
Guest:There's something to be said for both.
Guest:It sounds like you're playing a guitar in outer space.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It does.
Guest:It does.
Guest:That's kind of what I've been doing lately.
Guest:It is?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've been in this outer space world since I put this outer space record out that I just made this outer space video for.
Marc:Oh, that's what we're going to talk about.
Marc:Wait, you put an outer space record out?
Guest:Well, that's what I did.
Guest:It's like a high-stakes intergalactic extreme rock album.
Guest:Galacticon 2 is the record.
Marc:Where's Galacticon 1?
Guest:That came out also.
Guest:It already came out, yeah.
Guest:That's something I put in between Death Clock records.
Guest:Just because I didn't know if I was going to do another Death Clock record.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because there was like... I had booked... Death Clock 1 came out, did really, really well.
Guest:I'd booked the... And then we'd gotten this...
Guest:this whole deal together with Adult Swim for the second one but the last day before they said the deal's not ready the deal's not done we can't do this and I had already booked studio time booked all these musicians and I didn't want to look like a jerk in front of these guys and make them refuse gigs to work with me so I said let's record something I'm going to grab all these other songs and I want to do something that was a little bit more melodic a little less heavy and that's what Galacticon was
Guest:who's singing that's me i'm singing i'm not and i'm singing on the new one i'm singing somewhere between it's kind of like the natural the natural next step after death clock which is kind of brutal guttural stuff but also very melodic and stacked vocals and more kind of like heavier queen kind of stuff uh-huh yeah meets like sound garden meets like that's the new one that's the new one so wait the first galactic kind of these are these are these concept records
Guest:They are.
Guest:They are.
Guest:And so here's what happened.
Guest:This all happened as an accident.
Guest:And then I put out this record, and I put out this- The first one?
Guest:I put out this first one, and then- Who's on it?
Guest:It's myself.
Guest:It's Gene Hoagland, who I played with on Death Clock, and Brian Beller, who played on Death Clock, too.
Guest:He was a monster player.
Guest:You probably met him in passing.
Guest:But he's a great bass player, too.
Guest:And now all those guys are-
Guest:Out touring with other bands, but that's the band so I wrote a bunch of songs and I wrote a story Yeah, I wrote a couple stories with this.
Marc:What's the story of Galacticon one?
Guest:So the story of Galacticon one is an intergalactic divorce story So this is about like basically the idea was what if Superman Lois Lane had this big public messy divorce and she got everything she got the fortress of solitude and then
Guest:And he got nothing and he has to go to anger management and all this stuff.
Guest:He has to go to therapy and all kinds of stuff to get his sponsorships back and all kinds of shit.
Guest:And she starts dating Lex Luthor.
Guest:And that's basically the idea.
Guest:That was like a three-act hero's journey kind of a thing.
Guest:And so, but underneath it is a comedic thing and also kind of a hero's journey.
Guest:Really?
Marc:I shouldn't be taking this seriously?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There are divorce lawyers, space lawyers and space creditors in this story.
Guest:But so what happened was, so one thing began another and then I put out a comic book with this guy, Eric Powell, who does a comic called The Goon on, and he has his own comic company called Albatross Comics.
Guest:So he said, can we make this into a thing?
Guest:So I did that this year too.
Guest:I wrote like a six issue.
Marc:You use Superman?
Marc:Don't you have to get permission to use Superman?
Guest:I didn't really use Superman.
Guest:The idea was, what if Superman?
Guest:And then I create a totally different character.
Guest:It doesn't feel.
Guest:It's more like Charles Grodin in outer space kind of a thing.
Guest:You know, from like, the Heartbreak Kid, that clever Charles.
Guest:Like a cranky fucker who's like, it's a redemption story.
Marc:He wasn't quite cranky in the Heartbreak Kid.
Marc:He was kind of confused.
Guest:He was a little moody, though, watching her eat breakfast.
Guest:Oh, that, yeah.
Guest:I put cream on my face.
Guest:You probably put cream on my face.
Guest:Don't put a Milky Way bar in someone's mouth who doesn't want it.
Guest:That's one of my favorite lines of all time.
Marc:So you did the comic book about the divorce arc.
Guest:Yeah, I just finished.
Guest:So it's still coming out right now.
Guest:I just finished writing.
Marc:So the comic book for Galacticon 1 is coming out.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And the record for Galacticon 2.
Guest:Just came out.
Marc:With a new story.
Guest:With a new story that I'll get into later on, but not here.
Guest:But...
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:Meaning that... You don't want to ruin it?
Guest:I don't want to ruin it.
Guest:Yeah, that's kind of it.
Guest:But because everything's going with Galacticon 1 right now.
Guest:But this... Wait, the video's Galacticon 1?
Guest:Video's Galacticon 2.
Marc:The video that you're here to talk about?
Guest:The video that I'm here to talk about is promoting the second record.
Marc:That I watched 30 seconds of?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I watched a trailer for a video.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:You got to promote it somehow.
Guest:But just put the video out.
Guest:I'm going to.
Guest:But I have to make people watch it.
Guest:I have to let people know that it's happening at some time.
Guest:You have to create an event.
Guest:You have to show people where it shows up.
Guest:Because there's no MTV anymore.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And videos are hard to sell, by the way.
Guest:Videos are hard to find money to do.
Guest:What is it supposed to sell?
Guest:Well, it's hard to make money.
Guest:It's hard to- Get the money to make them.
Guest:Get the money to make them.
Guest:Thank you, Mark.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:That's why I'm on this side of the table.
Guest:But it's hard to raise money.
Guest:That's what I'm trying to say.
Guest:So here's the thing is that this all comes back to you in some strange way.
Guest:As I was listening to the Roger Corman episode.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was a really inspiring thing.
Guest:I've been lucky enough to be paid by networks to do stuff for a long time.
Guest:But every once in a while, I want to do my own stuff the way I want to do it, how I want to do it.
Guest:And that's what this whole project is.
Guest:And so raising money is really funny because everybody turns into Ed Wood.
Guest:You're baptizing all your friends trying to get $40,000 to make something.
Guest:And luckily, I got a lot of sponsors to chip in, and I got Megaforce Records, who I'm working with, to chip in, and I got Loot Crate, and I got a pinball company, Stern Pinball, who I do the voices of.
Guest:I'm the voice of the Metallica pinball game and the Aerosmith pinball game.
Marc:Do you do their voices?
Guest:I don't do the universe.
Guest:I play an obnoxious character who just taunts you, like at a dunk tank.
Guest:Come on!
Guest:It's pretty much exactly that voice.
Guest:Come on!
Guest:You can do better than that!
Guest:That kind of a horribly annoying voice.
Guest:And I got those guys to help me make this video.
Marc:So, there's a lot of people.
Marc:A lot of people got a taste.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Well, the thing is I wanted to do something that was only like available to be done almost like, you know, Dogma 95 is like all this restriction-based thing.
Guest:I wanted to do something like a sci-fi fantasy video using all practical effects, meaning no CGI at all, all tactile things.
Marc:That's the Corman angle?
Guest:And that's the Corman angle.
Guest:And also, so instead of Dogma 95, I want to do Corman 82.
Guest:Anything that was available in 1982, I can do with this video.
Guest:So that's the idea.
Guest:So my brother luckily works in makeup effects and he builds creatures and he's worked on Jim Henson stuff.
Guest:He worked on Hellboy.
Guest:He worked on all kinds of different movies.
Guest:But he's really good at what he does.
Guest:And it was a good opportunity for us to partner together and just get our hands dirty and have paint on our pants when we go home and all kinds of stuff like that.
Guest:So we'd use this old technique from Flash Gordon the movie where they had these aquariums filled with ink.
Guest:And you use them for these really cool science fiction skies.
Guest:So all those skies that you're seeing, even in that 30-second trailer, are...
Guest:are generated through a 50-gallon aquarium.
Guest:And it's just the gift that keeps on caving.
Guest:We keep using it for all these really cool moments.
Guest:And it's really outer space and it's tactile.
Guest:And it feels like it's really there.
Guest:And we built spaceship models.
Guest:And we built robots.
Guest:And we built weird silicon whale creatures with glowing eyes and fucked up stuff like that.
Guest:And it's a really crazy, fun place to be.
Guest:And we found a standing spaceship set that I guess James Cameron built.
Guest:20 years ago, 30 years ago, like up on the five somewhere.
Guest:And it looks really cool.
Guest:They shot the show Firefly there.
Guest:But we just wanted to light it really cool, like science, almost like heavy metal, the comic book, but up on its feet.
Guest:Or in this case, my comic book totally up on its feet.
Guest:So that was the idea.
Guest:And I realized I was having so much fun, I couldn't deny this.
Guest:I just wanted to keep building it out and building it out.
Guest:So I made it into this seven and a half minute short film.
Guest:Where the song doesn't even start for the first two minutes.
Guest:I wrote score.
Guest:I wrote like this John Carpenter kind of like Tangerine Dream style.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Score with all these like square wave synthesizers and like there's a little bit of Jerry Goldsmith in there from the Alien soundtrack.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Kind of like nods to this, that and the other thing.
Guest:And then the song comes in and then I figured I'm not even going to...
Guest:I'm going to cut into a second song that's on the record at the same time.
Guest:Why not?
Guest:I'm here.
Guest:I showed up.
Guest:We have paint all over ourselves anyway.
Guest:Why don't I just continue this out?
Guest:So, it ends with this big epic outro of this other song on the same record.
Guest:So, it's just a big advertisement of just eye candy and fun and sci-fi and escapism.
Guest:And that was all because I...
Guest:I forgot you can just go out and start doing stuff.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's what that Corman interview kind of told me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because no one's going to pay me to do that stuff.
Guest:Sometimes I just got to stand up and say, okay, here's what we're doing today.
Guest:Everyone's like, okay.
Marc:Well, the 30 seconds I saw look good.
Marc:It looks really cool.
Marc:Well, God forbid, you know, you're coming on the show and I know it was at short notice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That maybe I could see the whole...
Guest:I can show it to you right now.
Guest:I could have showed it to you beforehand, but we just started talking.
Guest:I have a computer here and everything.
Guest:I can show you the whole damn thing.
Marc:Maybe I don't want to spoil it.
Guest:Maybe, yeah.
Marc:Because the first 30 seconds look pretty good.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Look really good.
Guest:It looks really cool.
Guest:We shot an anamorphic lens.
Marc:Are you getting more nerdy as you get older?
Marc:I mean, you seem like I don't...
Guest:no i mean it's the same nerdery that's been there it's just at some point it's the same thing as the guitar look everything is a guitar as far as i'm concerned you know you learn how to play it there are like certain things would you ever play that guitar that's a fender strat of course i would yeah like an 86 strat but it's got no frills no i have i have a 54 reissue with the baseball bat knack that sounds really great with me play it yeah of course i do i've used it on recordings oh
Guest:You use, the trick is that you surround yourself with all, all guitars are good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You just, there's no, I don't, I'm never going to kick a guitar out of bed.
Guest:They're all good.
Marc:Do you need any pedals before I get?
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:I'll take, I'll take a look through your pedals.
Guest:But yeah, nerdery is part of this whole thing.
Guest:It's just, again, at some point you go.
Marc:I know your brother was in that, that, that rackets.
Marc:Yeah, he's been doing it for a long time.
Guest:He got started with this guy, Gabe Bartolis, who's known for doing like the Leprechaun series, Basket Case, these B-movies.
Guest:But he also does the Cree Master Cycle, the Matthew Barney stuff, that super artsy, crazy stuff.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:So, yeah, it's this crazy cross section of...
Marc:The minotaurs?
Guest:Yeah, like weird dancing goats and crazy shit, and there's all this testicle-related shit.
Guest:So yeah, I am getting nerdier, and I want to learn more.
Guest:And honestly, it's just like guitar.
Guest:I want to get better every day at shit.
Guest:Don't you?
Guest:I mean, don't we want to just learn something new?
Marc:Yeah, I'm thinking about taking guitar lessons.
Guest:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Are you really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I buy them online, and I sit for like a half hour to 45 minutes every morning and try to learn new stuff.
Guest:From who?
Guest:Nerdy fusion guys.
Guest:really nerdy stuff you buy them though they're that special they're very I buy one I buy one and it lasts me three years to like get through it to like to be able to put it under my hands really yeah wow like like improvisational thinking stuff and fretboard knowledge and just going back to basics constantly yeah yeah I mean just seriously like just going like all right let's look at my picking yeah oh really let's just go back down to just like the mechanics of everything because you're working in millimeters uh-huh there may be a better way to skin a cat or something you know
Marc:Oh my God, I just want to learn a couple new riffs.
Guest:It's fun.
Guest:You're allowed to do whatever you want with it.
Guest:There's no wrong answer.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I just want to get out of my- I know, but you can play.
Guest:My circle of riffs.
Guest:That's funny.
Guest:That's true because we do plateau.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I just want to see how far out I can get.
Marc:I got a big blow to my confidence just playing with these guys.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Why?
Marc:Because, like, I don't know.
Marc:Because I think I can play, but I don't know.
Marc:Can I play?
Marc:For how long can I play?
Guest:Listen, you can play.
Guest:I think half the time, I think we start talking about guitar, you're just fishing for compliments from me.
What?
Guest:And I think I deliver them every time and they're just not a good enough compliment.
Marc:No, no, I need a boost.
Marc:All right, fine.
Guest:Mark, you can play.
Guest:We play together live on stage.
Guest:Yes, we have.
Guest:You can play.
Guest:You can question and answer.
Guest:You can listen.
Guest:I think the most important thing you can do as a guitar player is be able to bend a note and give it a little bit of life.
Guest:And that's the thing that makes a guy from Guitar Center playing on a Sunday versus a guy that's actually...
Marc:I can do that.
Guest:I know you can do that.
Guest:That's why I think you're good.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Because it's almost like- We're so close to picking up that guitar.
Guest:I know.
Guest:We're so close.
Guest:But it reminds me of starting out comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sometimes we don't start out in a, you know, you're a guy with a real personality on stage.
Guest:You may have started out that way or you may have started out trying to copy one of your heroes.
Marc:A little muted.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't think I did much copying.
Guest:But I mean, you probably had inspiration.
Guest:You probably thought, what does this guy do?
Marc:I might have been a little hicksy at one point.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:So that's where we start out with comedy and that's where we start out with guitar.
Guest:You got to learn how to impersonate your heroes a little bit so you can kind of find your own voice.
Marc:So, all right, so when is the video up?
Marc:Is it just called Galacticon?
Guest:It's called Galacticon.
Guest:Galacticon.
Guest:The song is called Nightmare, and it's a partnership between myself and Funny or Die, so it's going to show up on Funny or Die March 22nd.
Guest:This may be up.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:We'll see.
Guest:So, it's either out right now or go check it out on Funny or Die.
Marc:Thanks for coming by.
Marc:I'm sorry I was late, and thanks for saying that I'm a good guitar player.
Marc:You're welcome.
Marc:Good to see you.
Marc:Good to see you.
Marc:all right so go watch that thing he put a lot of work into it that's his sound is too it's too i don't know what it's something that you know what i mean it's the same with the science fiction but he can play anything that guy so duncan jones sci-fi the the the the theme continues uh duncan jones has a new film out called mute which he co-wrote and directed it will be available on netflix tomorrow i enjoyed the film
Marc:And I like Duncan.
Marc:But this time, okay, here's the deal.
Marc:He's a great director.
Marc:He's a great artist in his own right.
Marc:But between you and me, his dad is David Bowie.
Marc:His dad was David Bowie.
Marc:And I think many of us who love David Bowie and miss him...
Marc:Obviously, who are fans, the loss of David Bowie was profound and sad.
Marc:And there was part of me that wanted to talk a little bit about David Bowie, and not in a way that I thought was intrusive.
Marc:But I knew it was probably inappropriate.
Marc:Not inappropriate, but probably something that Duncan didn't want to do, which was true.
Marc:But I kept kind of doing it, and he handled it very well.
Marc:And at one point, we were talking about some... I just wanted to clear this up because in listening to it, I mentioned Sam Peckinpah, and I mentioned a Sam Peckinpah movie that had Bob Dylan in it, and that movie was not The Wild Bunch.
Marc:It was...
Marc:Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid.
Marc:He played Alias.
Marc:That's all.
Marc:That's my little pet peeve.
Marc:But enjoy this because it wasn't real tension.
Marc:He was a little worked up anyways.
Marc:But we had a lovely conversation about movies, about his work.
Marc:And every so often, I did try to bring up his dad.
Marc:But I think it worked.
Marc:That's what I'm telling you.
Marc:It's a good interview.
Marc:I enjoy the guy.
Marc:I think we could be friends.
Marc:I don't think that anyone got hurt here.
Marc:I don't know, though.
Marc:I feel good about it.
Marc:This is me and Duncan Jones.
Marc:So it has been a long time since I saw you.
Guest:Yeah, 2009.
Marc:That's when it was?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So that was right towards the end of whatever we were doing there in the break room.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I remember it was, my memory's bad.
Guest:That's okay.
Guest:I wouldn't expect you to remember.
Marc:But I remember you and I remember talking to you and I know why we were talking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that whole time period, it's sort of like, I don't know where it was in the arc of whatever was going on there at the time.
Marc:I knew if it was 2009, which is when we started this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But we talked about Moon.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That was the first film.
Marc:Yeah, Sam Rockwell in a spaceship.
Marc:I like the movie.
Marc:I remember I liking the movie.
Guest:Yeah, no, it's done me well.
Marc:It has?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:Because it got a lot of critical acclaim and people dug him.
Guest:Good acclaim and people still love it today.
Guest:So it's been remembered, which I think is a good sign.
Marc:So has it found like an audience in that world of sci-fi nerddom?
Marc:Definitely.
Guest:Definitely.
Marc:That's an important, they'll keep, they'll hold onto it forever.
Marc:They'll make sure it stays vital for the rest of time.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And I know Sam gets talked to, you know, whenever people talk to Sam, they always bring up Moon.
Guest:That's one of the first things they talk about.
Guest:Oh, really?
Yeah.
Marc:And it's funny, because in the new movie, you see Sam briefly.
Marc:In a couple of moments, there's several Sams in one clip, which is sort of funny.
Marc:But before we get to the new movie, so you walked in, he said, you're more angry.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:than you were back then.
Guest:I was a young, naive, you know, open-eyed guy when I came and saw you on Moon.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:So usually people do the young... I'm an angrier dude.
Marc:Really?
Guest:People usually do the young and angry thing.
Guest:No, I went the opposite way.
Guest:is it is it because of the world i think it's the world and and and and life and um yeah i know it's just been a it's been a wild ride those last 10 years yeah so you're starting to realize like uh it doesn't always work out yeah yeah yeah it doesn't work out the way it's supposed to the way you think it should maybe it's no no no mark the way it's supposed to the way it's supposed to happen
Marc:So that disposition will that is a sure recipe for anger.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:This is not how I want it to be.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I don't I don't know.
Marc:We I think we only spent a little bit of time together last time.
Marc:But so let me get some.
Marc:Let's do the standard.
Marc:Like where do you live now?
Guest:I live here in L.A.
Guest:My wife is actually from Pasadena.
Guest:In fact, she grew up a couple of blocks from here.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Back when this neighborhood wasn't quite as nice as it is now.
Marc:It's still true.
Marc:I have mixed feelings about that.
Marc:She grew up in Highland Park?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Your wife did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So did you tell her you were coming to Highland Park?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:She wanted me to make sure that I got back safe as quickly as possible.
Marc:It is a little better than that now.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, and she went to what?
Marc:Then she moved to Pasadena?
Guest:Yeah, I think her dad was in the U.S.
Guest:Navy, so they moved around all over the country when she was growing up.
Marc:Oh, no kidding.
Guest:She ended up back here.
Marc:That's wild.
Marc:So you actually, by default or by one degree of separation, you have history in my neighborhood.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:A couple blocks from here.
Guest:I got to bring my son in here at some point so you can see where his mom grew up.
Guest:How long have you been here?
Guest:Since Source Code, which is my second film, which I was about, 2011, six years.
Guest:I've been out here for about six years now.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And do you like it?
Guest:I'm grudgingly growing to love aspects of it.
Marc:And you moved here from London?
Guest:Yeah, I lived in London before that.
Guest:But with the films, we traveled so much.
Guest:I was in Montreal for one film, then Vancouver for another.
Guest:This most recent film, we were in Berlin for a year.
Guest:You went to Berlin, huh?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Now, where did you grow up primarily?
Guest:Again, all over the place.
Marc:Why?
Guest:Your mother wasn't in the army and your dad was... My dad was traveling though, so it was kind of like the army.
Guest:So you were with him most of the time?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No kidding.
Marc:Because I was trying to put it together.
Marc:There was some weird... Your mother lived out here for a while.
Marc:yeah i yes that's correct do you are you guys talking you're not talking no not since i was 13 really that then that holds absolutely really but you think that has anything to do with why you're angry no no you just find it safer not to talk to her you just she she was a corrosive person oh yeah
Marc:so so that's interesting so you you don't talk i only know one other guy in my life that has has completely not talked to a parent right just like yeah that i'm done with that yeah and it's just not not getting any better there's no resolving it and that's just the way it is absolutely that is correct but it doesn't you don't have it doesn't it doesn't drain you in any way no no
Guest:No, no, I was I was fortunate in that when my dad was traveling and I was, you know, with him, there was this amazing woman by the name of Marion Skeen, who was actually, you know, came into my life when I was two years old to look after me.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:She was there.
Guest:My she was basically essentially my mother growing up.
Marc:Was she like a nanny?
Guest:Yeah, she was.
Guest:And she died while we were making Mute.
Guest:So my dad died the year before we started.
Guest:She died while we were making it.
Guest:But I also had, you know, I've started having my family.
Guest:So my son was born just before we started.
Guest:My daughter is coming right now.
Marc:Wow, that's a lot.
Guest:Yeah, it's been heavy.
Guest:Well, I mean, you're getting both sides.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:You got to make room for the new guys with the, you know, make some space from the old one.
Marc:That's a heavy few years, man.
Marc:And you're making a movie.
Marc:How long was your dad sick?
Marc:Because, like, you know, I mean, none of us obviously knew details.
Marc:And I'm sorry for your loss.
Marc:I'm sorry for everybody.
Marc:Everybody's lost because that one for that, his death was a very big hit for, I think, a lot of us.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm not comparing myself to you, but you always thought he'd be there for some reason.
Guest:Listen, if you don't know and the information's not out there, then I really would want to respect the rest of my family who haven't put that information out.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Well, there were rumors that he was sick, but I mean, you knew that he knew.
Marc:He knew he was sick.
Marc:And he made that last record.
Guest:Yeah, no, there was an amazing effort by him to keep focused and produce something that meant a lot to him.
Marc:Well, I think then, like, if you don't mind talking about a little bit, not the death necessarily, but just the fact that like, because there's, you know, when you grow up with somebody like David Bowie as your father.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, we we don't know anything, but like it seems to me you seem like a pretty well adjusted guy that, you know, like I you we don't necessarily picture him as a father.
Marc:Yeah, but he he also moved through a lot of personalities like intentional personas.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But the one you knew was probably much different.
Guest:Yeah, I sort of saw him as he naturally was in his native state.
Marc:Yeah, which was what?
Marc:A proper English guy?
Marc:Just a nice guy?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely a nice guy.
Marc:Yeah, and he was a good father.
Guest:He was a great father.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, I had an unusual upbringing, but not a negative one.
Guest:Traveling on the road.
Guest:Traveling.
Guest:Watching the shows.
Guest:Watching the shows.
Guest:Seeing Clockwork Orange at too young an age.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you must have been on film sets.
Marc:There must have been something that inspired you.
Marc:Where were you when he did Man Who Fell to Earth?
Marc:I mean, New Mexico, right?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:I grew up there.
Marc:They were doing that when I was there.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:I was a kid, though.
Marc:But that's where they shot him, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:absolutely yeah and that's why there's there's you know i was i was out there for that i mean obviously i was very young so it didn't have an impact for me as far as making me want to make movies but right you know as as i got older i was on shoot other shoots um and those were more impactful yeah like with who like with what directors like like who did you like at that time or were you when you started registering obviously when i got older for the labyrinth right right um so you're a real sci-fi guy
Guest:Yeah, partially.
Guest:That's part of my interest.
Guest:But I like the fact that science fiction allows you to kind of push people into examining stuff without them feeling judged.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:So where did you do most of your schooling?
Marc:I mean, if you were traveling so much, where did you end up going to school?
Guest:um well we were in germany for a little while so there was a an american military academy there and then in berlin in berlin yeah back in the 70s say how long was that a few years that was like a like a year and a half or something when he did heroes yeah then it was um i was in switzerland for a while wow you know that became a kind of a base for him while he was while he was traveling uh-huh we were oh my god you know a little bit of tutoring in australia and school in the north of scotland a boarding school in scotland and
Marc:So there was a boarding school involved.
Marc:Maybe the kids shouldn't be on the road so much.
Marc:Let's put them in a place where, and that was in Scotland.
Guest:And in New York as well, there was a great school there called the Little Red Schoolhouse I went to.
Marc:That was down the street from where I lived.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then where'd you end up going to college?
Marc:Where'd you end up?
Guest:Worcester, Ohio.
Guest:Really?
Guest:In Amish country.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:What was the name of that school?
Guest:Worcester.
Guest:It was called the College of Worcester.
Guest:It was a small liberal arts place.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Just kind of near Akron.
Guest:How'd you end up there?
Guest:What was the choice?
Guest:I got kicked out of boarding school.
Guest:In Scotland?
Guest:In Scotland.
Guest:After I got kicked out of boarding school, I spent like a year and a half trying to work out what I wanted to do in my life.
Guest:Took my SATs, which obviously in a UK school, you wouldn't normally take.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:i took them and did pretty well in those and then got a an academic and a and a soccer scholarship to uh to worcester in to to college of worcester and that's why you're like well they you know i can go for free or partially i had to pay a bit yeah yeah yeah but yeah it just it just seemed like wow this is a whole different thing than where i've been kind of where my head's been at lately so i went out there
Guest:Did that and then went off to graduate school for three years at Vanderbilt in Nashville, Tennessee.
Marc:What were you studying in graduate school?
Guest:Philosophy.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that was where you ended up.
Marc:You went to undergrad and you're like, I'm going to study philosophy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had a really good time at undergrad.
Guest:Vanderbilt graduate school, I realized pretty quick that I did not want to be a teacher, which is one of the few professions you can really get into with a philosophy doctorate.
Marc:But like philosophy, I sort of like, when people say they study philosophy, I'm always curious because I can never wrap my head around it.
Marc:Were you moving towards something?
Marc:Did you have favorite philosophers?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:I mean, I was trying to find the path that was most in sync with my interests, which were science fiction.
Guest:So I was looking at artificial intelligence and the application of morals and ethics into how do you treat artificial intelligences as far as ethical entities, as entities that have their own agency.
Marc:And that was what you were studying when you were in college.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what philosophers covered that?
Marc:Who were you reading?
Guest:I guess Peter Singer, who was more from the animal rights side of things.
Guest:Yeah, sure, sure.
Guest:And then Daniel Dennett, who was kind of much more known for sort of artificial intelligence and things like that.
Marc:And now Peter Singer was right.
Marc:So he wrote some book.
Guest:Practical Ethics.
Guest:There's a great book he wrote called Practical Ethics, which is really just kind of building up the case of how do you ethically use animals?
Guest:Because obviously, you know, we're custodians for them.
Guest:How do you manage to make that work when you're trying to create the least cruelty possible?
Marc:Right.
Marc:That was it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then I remember I had the book and had pictures like vivisection pictures.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's heavy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's heavy, but also it's what the title says.
Guest:It's very practical.
Guest:It's looking at it in a very cut and dry way.
Marc:And how did that affect you as a student?
Marc:I mean, are you a vegetarian?
Guest:Nope.
Guest:no but in that book he doesn't really kind of drive towards that he drives more to a much more practical solution of of if you are going to eat animals try and try and give them the best possible life that you can right um and then use them you know and what do you think like on a metaphysical level like in terms of i don't know if it's metaphysics or not about you know unleashing all of that pain into the world
Marc:Do you think along those lines?
Marc:Do you know, like, you know, with these kind of agri-farms and these just thousands of animals being cruelly managed and then, you know, kind of violently killed, do you believe that it does enter our consciousness or atmosphere somehow?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I certainly think it sets up an environment where we become desensitized to certain things and practices.
Guest:I don't think... I mean, I am absolutely... I would be very happy to eat something alternative to meat if I felt that it tasted and had the texture of real meat.
Guest:Have you tried some of those things?
Guest:I have.
Guest:I haven't been sold yet.
Marc:No, you don't like the... But I think it's coming.
Marc:I think it's coming.
Marc:Jackfruit tacos?
Yeah.
Guest:There's a place actually called Locali.
Guest:Have you ever been there?
Guest:They serve a Reuben.
Guest:They serve a vegan Reuben.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Which is really pretty good.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where's that at?
Guest:Gosh, where is it?
Guest:It's just south of the hills.
Guest:Locali?
Guest:Yeah, Locali.
Marc:There's some guys that set up here that's all sort of like plant-based food.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Meats for tacos and stuff they set up down here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's pretty good.
Marc:I haven't been eating red meat in like five months.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because primarily just because of cholesterol reasons.
Marc:And I'm okay without it.
Marc:I do get a little tired of fish.
Marc:And tofu is okay.
Marc:Do you find yourself more low energy?
Marc:Are you okay?
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:I am all right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You seem very happy these days.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know if I'm happy.
Guest:I saw places.
Marc:Yeah, I'm better.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:I think I'm better.
Marc:I think some things worked out that didn't necessarily look like they were going to work out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what do you do?
Marc:You drop out of philosophy.
Marc:What did you end up like?
Marc:What provoked you in your thinking to study film?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think my dad realized that this was not going the way I had hoped it was going as far as pursuing philosophy into any kind of career.
Guest:He realized it?
Guest:Yeah, I think he realized it before me.
Guest:Well, he realized that I was miserable before I did.
Guest:I mean, I kind of thought, all right, this is just part of the process of being in graduate school.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And he said, no, you seem unhappy.
Guest:No, this is not a healthy choice.
Guest:So he was actually working on something with Tony Scott.
Guest:It was not the original film, The Hunger.
Guest:They did a TV show of The Hunger.
Guest:Before or after?
Guest:No, this was after.
Guest:So Terrence Stamp, I think, was the kind of host of the first season of that show.
Guest:And my dad was asked to come and be the host for the second season of the show.
Guest:So they were shooting that up in Montreal.
Guest:my dad asked me if i wanted to come and join them and i went and spent my time you know spent a couple of weeks with them uh shooting on one of the cameras him and tony him and tony and tony gave me you know a lot of his time in very generous man and and and i got hooked i was absolutely hooked oh yeah so you're sitting behind the camera with tony scott and he's showing you what's up basically in a sense basically yeah well what what did what did you learn from him in that in that moment or was it just more of an impression
Guest:It was an impression and just the excitement and creativity of making movies and just how much fun it can be.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And how obviously there's a blueprint when you've got a script.
Marc:Sure, there's a way to do it.
Guest:But at the same time, there is the actual activity of doing it and the improvisation and just the fun that you can have on the day.
Guest:It's a great blend of art and being able to be creative and at the same time jamming.
Guest:with a bunch of other people.
Marc:Right, the sort of group effort, the ensemble, actors, gaffers, all the people.
Marc:Yeah, everybody.
Marc:Lighting, ADs.
Marc:Catering.
Marc:Yeah, oh yeah, very important.
Marc:Everything, absolutely.
Marc:Food, food, crafty, gotta have it, good crafty.
Marc:All right, so then you just go back to Vanderbilt and you're like, I'm done.
Marc:I'm done with Tennessee.
Guest:Yeah, pretty much.
Guest:Almost as soon as that was done, I moved back to London and spent my time there working in low-budget music videos, commercials, and sort of- No school?
Guest:Yeah, I went to film school too.
Guest:Which one?
Guest:I was doing a place called London Film School.
Guest:It's right off Covent Garden, right in the center of the city.
Guest:yeah and what now what do you what do you learn in film school like because now like i i talk to actors more specifically now but like in film school like what do you learn at london film school there's a lot of basic technical things about you know how you how you put a project together how you how you make sure that you're budgeted and oh it's a production stuff production stuff but but to be honest most of the learning happens when you're working with other students on their short films and on their projects and you all help each other out and you try out different jobs and you understand what all the jobs are
Marc:Did you do some short films?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:I did some short films.
Marc:What were the early Duncan Jones short films?
Guest:One of them was a Celtic love story in Welsh and Icelandic language, so there was no English in it.
Marc:Those are two tricky languages.
Marc:You pretty much guaranteed no one would be able to just roll with
Guest:It was an exercise for myself in that I wanted to see, can I tell the story with not being able to rely on dialogue, which obviously comes up in mute too.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But Welsh, that's... Well, that was the closest I could get to an original Celtic language.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:It's an odd language, right?
Guest:Between Gaelic and Icelandic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was kind of a...
Guest:a battle for me as the director to understand what the actors were saying.
Guest:And how long was that film?
Guest:That one was like 10, 12 minutes.
Guest:Did it work?
Guest:Yeah, I think it was okay.
Guest:And then I did another one, which is actually on the DVD for Moon called Whistle, which was a contemporary sci-fi film set in London.
Guest:So that was another one.
Marc:Where's the... See, I'm not a sci-fi guy in general.
Marc:I'm not a fantasy guy, really.
Marc:It took me...
Marc:I don't know why I watched A Shape of Water, but I did, and I found it very moving and beautiful and compelling, but I don't think to do it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I know you have- You're a practical man, though.
Guest:You want practical answers to practical questions.
Guest:How do you know that?
Guest:I watched you.
Guest:I've seen you.
Guest:I hear you.
Guest:I know what you are.
Guest:So you already have those answers then?
Guest:Or are you avoiding them?
Guest:No, I just think that you can hit those same questions from a different perspective.
Marc:But did you always like sci-fi?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It was just your thing?
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:And I think I enjoyed the fantastical elements of it before I realized how useful it was as a tool to get to practical things.
Marc:hmm so you got to go to space to get to here i think i think there's it i think it's a different perspective you get a chance to look at things in a different way all right so what what are some of the inspirations that like so you're growing up and you're getting into sci-fi like do you read like you know what what do you start with how do you get to jg ballard do you do you read asimov do you read uh allison who do you read
Guest:um all of those a ballad was one of the later ones for me it was actually i was introduced to that much later on but um i think you know i think a william gibson was a big one for me as well early on um yeah as soon as i read neuromancer i mean my dad actually gave me neuromancer to read and and i thought that was just the bee's knees that was the big one that was the one where he discovered the internet
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He sort of came up with everything that we know today.
Marc:Put on the goggles, we're going in.
Marc:I read those.
Marc:I felt like I had to read those.
Marc:Like there were ones that, for me, there were ones that were referred to me by people that I kind of respect that were like what I met certain highbrow expectations I had.
Marc:Because there were other ones, like what's that guy's name?
Marc:Harlan Ellison?
Guest:Harlan Ellison, yeah.
Marc:But like, you know, I tried to read him and people love him and there's hundreds of books and he's an interesting guy.
Marc:But there was such a sophomoric approach to women and sex in them that I just like, I'm like, but where's the literature here?
Marc:I mean, maybe the device is great.
Marc:And maybe like as a device writer in science fiction, he's a genius.
Marc:But I couldn't get past the prose.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I can get that.
Guest:I mean, did you get anything more out of maybe Philip K. Dick or something?
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, I could read that because like, you know, the ones that, is that Android's Dream of Electric Sheep?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So he did the original thing that Blade Runner was based on.
Marc:Yeah, I read that because he's like, you know, he's lean and poetic and, you know, thoughtful.
Marc:There was a, he could create a tone with his language.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:Same with Ballard, I think.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I've always dug Burroughs, and Burroughs will go to space occasionally.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Ballard had this amazing house, actually, just down the street from Shepperton Studios in London where we shot Moon.
Guest:I was always amazed whenever you drive past it, it is the most quaint, normal-looking cottage.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:I think all those guys with the imagination, it's like Tolkien, too.
Marc:I never was a Hobbit guy, but he seemed like just a proper guy who lives in a cottage.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:See, this is the same thing I was asking about your dad, is like, does he live in a spaceship?
Marc:You know, like, did you grow up and where did you grow?
Marc:But I have to assume, like, Britain has a certain thing.
Marc:Like, they have, you know, the intellectual life and also the fantastical artists that live there.
Marc:They always end up, even if it's a big house, it looks like a fucking hobbit house.
Marc:It looks like an English countryside.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:the most cool house you're going to get in Britain, you're going to be like, oh, that's like a British house.
Marc:It's a farm, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, like your dad didn't live in like some modern fucking weird.
Guest:He did not.
Guest:We never lived in a big modern crazy house.
Guest:English house?
Guest:No, we lived in other countries, but it was never, they were never crazy houses.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:So you're reading Ballard, you're reading, you know, these things.
Marc:And so when do you start kind of chipping away at the vision, you know, in that second short?
Guest:No, I mean, I was always interested in making films, even if it was just sort of as a hobby.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, one of the things I never really got into music.
Guest:It was never something that felt like a natural fit to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think I kind of pushed away from it.
Guest:But one of the things that I always did enjoy.
Guest:You pushed away from music.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, didn't want to play guitar.
Guest:Didn't want to do drums.
Guest:Didn't want to play saxophone.
Guest:You're surrounded by it.
Guest:And I was constantly, you know, urged to learn an instrument.
Guest:By who?
Guest:By dad.
Guest:And I just, I just wasn't interested.
Marc:But like when you're a kid, it's like weird Mick Ronson hanging around and, you know, these guys play guitar with him.
Marc:Like, you know.
Guest:Dennis Davies, amazing drummer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was trying to teach me drums and I just like, no.
Guest:No.
Marc:I don't want to do this.
Marc:I don't want to do drums.
Marc:Did you meet like Fripp and those guys when you were a kid?
Guest:I met a lot of people when I was a kid, but most of them were just dudes.
Marc:They're just guys who work with your dad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're like, no, no music for me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Do you like listening to it?
Guest:Not with any great enthusiasm.
Guest:It was just work.
Guest:It's like watching your dad do accounting.
Marc:But everybody has to have a little music in their soul.
Marc:I'm not telling you whether your dad was who he was or not.
Marc:Like, you don't have to turn your back entirely on enjoying music.
Marc:Nothing resonates?
Guest:No classical?
Guest:I listen to a lot of CNN.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I watch a lot of news.
Marc:Yeah, I get that.
Marc:These are not helpful things.
Guest:I know, but it's not music.
Guest:No, it's not music.
Guest:But that's kind of when people ask me, what do you listen to?
Guest:I listen to Mark Maron, NPR, CNN, MSN.
Guest:Sometimes when I want to really punish myself, I watch some Fox.
Marc:You never think to listen to music?
Marc:No, not really.
Marc:Doesn't that strike you as odd?
Marc:No, it's almost too obvious.
Marc:oh you'd be like so there's two kinds of people like if they there's uh people grew up with uh and this is just an analogy yeah like uh people who grow up with the fathers who smoke yeah they either they smoke or they they're totally against it right same with booze same with anything so because your dad was immersed in music yeah you're just sort of like nah it doesn't register doesn't register with me
Guest:But he also spent a lot of time with me with cameras and teaching me how to film and edit.
Guest:He got me this beautiful little Super 8 camera when I was a kid and taught me how to edit.
Guest:And that took.
Guest:That I loved from an early age.
Marc:And was he always on board?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:In fact, I think he was waiting for me to get back into being interested in film when I went off on this academic jaunt.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:For three years?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I think it seems to have served you somehow.
Marc:I mean, I have to assume that studying philosophy at a graduate level for three years has got to do something.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It has to inform something.
Guest:It's no coincidence that three years of Sam Bell on the far side of the moon is the same amount of time I spent in graduate school in Nashville, Tennessee.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:So that movie, so you just went right into film.
Marc:You didn't have any other interests in your life that you were thinking about pursuing?
Guest:I kind of, I dipped my toe into computer games.
Guest:I worked at a computer games company in London for a couple of years when I was there.
Guest:early on this was no this was actually um after just after just after uh film school right so i was trying to pay you know pay the rent with the with working at this games company and with the money that i was saving there i was spending it on these low budget music videos and things to try and build up my show reel so i could hopefully move into commercials did you ever do any commercials
Guest:Yeah, I did a bunch of commercials in the UK.
Guest:Before I did Moon, that's what I was doing.
Guest:I worked at an advertising agency.
Guest:And music videos?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's a guy called Nick Armstrong who wrote a song called Broken Mouth Blues.
Guest:You should listen to that.
Guest:It's fun.
Guest:And it's your video?
Guest:That's one of the videos I did.
Marc:And it's a blues song?
Guest:No, it's not really a blues song.
Marc:So you're directing music videos and you don't give a shit about music.
Marc:It's great.
Yeah.
Guest:I concentrate on the visuals.
Guest:The music's made.
Guest:When you do a music video, you're not trying to make the music.
Guest:You're just putting visuals to the music.
Guest:And do you get to script all that?
Guest:Is that on you?
Guest:Yeah, I do the scripting.
Guest:And then obviously I have to run it past the bands and the record companies and make sure everyone signs off on it.
Guest:But the budget I was doing them at, which was super low, as long as you deliver something, they're happy.
Marc:Oh, so you were that guy?
Marc:You weren't doing the high-level ones?
Marc:No, I wasn't doing the high-level ones.
Marc:What about the commercials?
Marc:Were you just doing like- Those got bigger.
Guest:Those got bigger and better.
Guest:I saw, yeah.
Guest:Do you like ketchup?
Guest:You like Heinz ketchup?
Guest:Sure, I do.
Guest:I did one of those.
Marc:Yeah, I like Heinz ketchup.
Marc:I got a Heinz ketchup ad.
Marc:Was that the angle?
Marc:Was that what they said?
Marc:Do you like ketchup?
Guest:Or are you just asking me?
Guest:I was just asking you about it.
Marc:I thought that was the ad.
Marc:I'm like, I do like Heinz ketchup.
Marc:You see, I'm good at this.
Marc:I prefer Heinz ketchup.
Marc:There is no other ketchup.
Marc:We're writing an ad right now.
Marc:Is there another ketchup?
Marc:Why does Heinz even need to advertise?
Marc:Just to remind you how much you like them.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, don't forget it.
Marc:It's like tradition.
Marc:Yeah, don't go over to Del Monte or whatever they got in England.
Guest:You don't call.
Guest:You should call me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Call your mom.
Guest:Call Heinz.
Guest:That's it?
Marc:That's the subtext?
Marc:That's what it should be.
Guest:Remember us?
Guest:Don't forget.
Guest:You didn't put ketchup on your hot dog.
Marc:Oh, who does that?
Marc:That's not a ketchup thing.
Marc:Fries, chips, come on.
Marc:So you don't really spend much time in Britain anymore?
Guest:We were out there for post-production on mute.
Guest:So we shot in Berlin, and then we went to London, and we were there for a while.
Guest:But we had a little baby, so it was really hard to be traveling so much.
Guest:Yeah, the second one's due in April.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Very soon.
Marc:that's soon yeah how old's the one um 19 months oh these are little kids yeah so you're not sleeping much no it's part that doesn't help with the anger no you're up all night because the kid's crying and you're reading the fucking news exactly it's like you know the world is ending and now what am i gonna do with this king this is a phase mark right it's just a face i don't have any but i hear they grow up i hear that yeah
Marc:But you just, you got another one coming, so it's back to back.
Guest:I know, I know.
Marc:It'll be a few years of fun.
Marc:But do you, but the kid's good?
Marc:He's amazing.
Marc:All right, so let's get to, like, so with Moon, how long did you, but I have to assume that when you're doing commercials and music videos, you're learning the shit.
Marc:You're getting, you're learning your way around the camera.
Marc:That's why I wanted to do it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Especially on the lower budget level, because, you know, you get a chance to experiment and try crazy, stupid shit, and hopefully it all comes together, and...
Guest:You pick out the stuff which is working and you realize why people have turned away from stuff that doesn't work.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you learn that in a hands-on way and you can fail without it costing anyone a lot of money.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:You just sort of get frustrated and maybe the band gets upset, but no one's like, you're never working again.
Marc:You just lost $50 million.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:So when do you start thinking about Moon and how does that sort of come together?
Marc:Because obviously, you know, Sam thinks a great deal of you to kind of pop up in this movie in a very passive way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I've been working in these adverts for a couple of years and had this mentor, a guy called Trevor Beatty, who's a big deal in the advertising industry in the UK.
Guest:And I've been working for him, basically writing commercials and then directing them.
Marc:So he was a mentor in copywriting and in filmmaking?
Guest:More in copywriting and also just as a supporter of... Your creativity?
Guest:My creativity.
Guest:I told him that I was probably going to leave advertising because I really wanted to try and move into feature films.
Guest:would he be interested in maybe helping me out if I did a little British film?
Guest:And he was kind of the first person to put some support behind me when we made Moon.
Guest:In the form of money?
Guest:In form of money.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then we were able to find some other people who helped out.
Guest:And you wrote Moon, right?
Guest:Co-wrote it is the fair way to say.
Guest:I wrote the treatment, so the story is mine.
Guest:I wrote the treatment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Very talented guy called Nathan Parker came in and wrote the first draft.
Guest:And then we bounced back and forth.
Guest:You know, I'd write a draft, he'd write a draft.
Marc:And you got a foot now.
Marc:Forgive me for asking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you know, did you, you didn't think to ask your dad for money?
Guest:I've tried to, you know, hold as much as possible wherever I can.
Guest:Separate yourself.
Guest:Forge my own path.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I imagine that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And forgive me if I keep bringing it up occasionally.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I, you know, but because, because I, look, I've had, I had Jacob Dillon in here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and he doesn't want to talk about Bob Dylan at all.
Guest:I understand.
Guest:I don't want to talk about him either.
Marc:Who, Bob Dylan?
Marc:Bob Dylan.
Marc:But there comes a point where I'm asking him about songwriting, and I'm like... Yeah, what are you going to do?
Marc:And I'm like, you don't talk to him?
Marc:He's like, of course.
Marc:Of course I talk to him.
Marc:He's my father, for Christ's sake.
Marc:And I'm like, do you understand him?
Marc:He's like, yes, I understand.
Marc:Because I guess it's difficult.
Guest:Look, there's this weird little group of us who don't know each other, who don't know each other, but all have the same experience, whether it's me or Jacob or Stella McCartney or Julian Lennon.
Guest:There's all these kids that have had to find, how are we going to be people that we actually can live with?
Guest:And we've all found different paths.
Marc:the the ones you've mentioned you know i i don't know how julian's doing but it seems like the the other ones have done all right yeah i mean i think you know it's it's it's everyone's experiment no no one there is no there is no uh uh textbook on how to how to be this not in the modern world you know like yeah i imagine like you know i think you know some of the marx brothers have kids and i don't think anyone gave that much of a you know but when you know in the modern world where these people are mythic people you
Marc:You know, that they're that large.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's a whole, you know, you guys don't keep in touch.
Marc:There's not like an email.
Guest:We have our own Facebook.
Marc:I talked to Mark today.
Marc:Don't go in.
Marc:He's just going to bring up your dad.
Marc:He's just going to bring up Bob Dylan.
Marc:Over and over again.
Marc:No matter what.
Marc:He's going to pretend like he doesn't want to talk about you.
Marc:your famous parent, but he'll bring it up over and over again.
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:So you never met anybody of your ilk and had the conversation?
Guest:Like, how are you doing?
Guest:I've met a few people, but no, we've never had the conversation.
Guest:I'm actually fascinated to, though, one day.
Guest:To talk to the McCartney kids or the... We'll have an anonymous, like a... Chat with Jacob.
Guest:Celebrities anonymous.
Marc:Celebrity offspring anonymous.
Marc:Celebrity offspring anonymous.
Marc:Well, I mean, you're fortunate in that the name doesn't travel.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:You can get under the radar.
Marc:I noticed that you did dedicate the movie to him, which is nice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because it does end up being about parenting.
Marc:Yeah, it is about parents, isn't it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So before we get to that, I just want to talk about the Sam Rockwell thing, because I like that guy.
Guest:He's great.
Guest:And I think, you know, hopefully this is the year for Oscars and stuff.
Guest:Not that that matters.
Guest:It feels like it.
Marc:It feels like it.
Guest:Yeah, it feels like it.
Marc:Did you see that film?
Marc:I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I saw it.
Guest:He's amazing in it.
Marc:He's great.
Marc:Yeah, he really did it.
Guest:And Frances McDormand is mind-blowing.
Marc:He's amazing.
Marc:But Sam did something that he never did before, is that he shut something off to turn something else on.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because Sam is great, but he relies on a lot of Sam juice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:so like yeah yeah you're right you're right you know so he kind of he tempered that sam juice to make this guy have a different depth different you know he can do different characters but this guy was like there was you know yeah he shut something off yeah it's like i don't know if he'd look at that and maybe that's not exactly the right word there was no there was no dance break that's right and it was almost like when nicholson did pritzy's honor i don't know if you saw pritzy's on yeah
Marc:Where he's just like, oh, he's playing this guy.
Marc:And he shut off Jack.
Marc:He shut off that charm.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's very true.
Marc:Yeah, you're right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And then all of a sudden it's like, hey, he can do it.
Marc:He can really do it.
Marc:because like you know movie stars they you know they come to the table some of them that with so much charisma that you know you you don't need to yeah yeah the necessity to do much of anything is limited they just charm the audience and that's it job done one way or another you know it doesn't i'm not taking anything away from them they obviously have a like someone like george clooney is roughly george clooney yeah no matter what you know but that's good you kind of yeah
Guest:And I think Sam is sort of like that.
Guest:I didn't come here to watch some schlub on the screen.
Guest:I want George Clooney.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I want George Clooney.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Don't take too much of the Clooney out of this guy.
Marc:But he's got a lot of range too.
Marc:It's very interesting that, because I've had that conversation before with people where,
Marc:or maybe just with myself, where a movie star fundamentally can be a great actor, but you're always going to sort of see them.
Marc:There are character actors that sort of get lost in everything, and they don't have the same level of intensity or the same level of you know them as movie stars, but they just kind of move through characters in a different way.
Marc:But like Brad Pitt or Clooney or some of these other cats, they can do all these other characters.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Let me give you an example.
Marc:Paul Rudd.
Marc:Yeah, in your movie.
Marc:But I want to talk to you about that, about the dynamic there.
Marc:Because I like the movie.
Marc:I like Mute.
Guest:I liked it.
Marc:And I thought it was beautiful.
Marc:And when I read...
Marc:that you had such a long commitment to this.
Marc:That was sort of what I was getting at, was that you did this thing with Sam.
Marc:How long did that take, Moon?
Guest:Moon was 30 days shooting.
Marc:But when was the story done?
Marc:What was the total commitment?
Guest:It was one year.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:It was basically, I had a meeting with him because I wanted him to be in mute.
Guest:But this is before Moon.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I wanted him to play the character that Justin Theroux ended up playing up, Duck.
Guest:So I had the meeting with him.
Guest:He wanted to play the lead, Leo.
Guest:And I said, no, you just don't.
Guest:It's not going to work out.
Guest:So I said, but I really want you to be in my first film.
Guest:I'm going to write you something.
Guest:I went away and wrote Moon.
Marc:Oh, so you pitched him Mute first.
Marc:I pitched him Mute first.
Marc:So Mute was like festering with you before Moon.
Marc:16 years I was trying to make Mute.
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:So like you were like 20 to 25?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:God, how old was I?
Marc:What am I now?
Marc:Maybe 30 or 40.
Marc:So like 30.
Marc:So you're 30 when you come up with this idea.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, what was it at that time in your life that made you so hung up on this story?
Marc:What was the exact like without giving away the ending?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was the one liner that, you know, what was the poetry of this thing?
Marc:Because this is a very human movie and it's not.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Moon is too.
Marc:Like now I'm starting to see the whole, you know, sci-fi, you know, human.
Marc:No, because these are not you're not dealing with aliens.
Guest:No.
Marc:There may be robots around, but they're not... Yeah, it's not about that.
Marc:Right, it's not about robots.
Guest:These are character movies.
Guest:They just happen to be in futuristic settings.
Marc:So what was it that got you hung up on this story?
Marc:Where'd the story come from for you, for Mute?
Marc:For Mute, it was two things.
Guest:It was, I wanted to make...
Guest:I wanted the technical challenge of a lead who didn't talk.
Guest:I wanted a protagonist who didn't say a word.
Guest:Because I thought if I could pull that off in the same way with Moon, we have Sam Rockwell playing multiple characters who are separated by their age.
Guest:And those made different people just because they had different life experiences.
Guest:With Leo, I wanted to see, can I create a character that the audience is actually going to get to know?
Guest:even though they never say a word.
Guest:So that was part one.
Guest:The other part was I was a huge, well, I am a huge fan of Robert Altman's M.A.S.H.
Marc:That's what I was going to ask you.
Marc:Why the nod to Trapper and Hawkeye?
Guest:Why the nod?
Guest:It's like them.
Guest:It's them gone bad.
Marc:Gone totally bad.
Guest:And I love that film and I love the relationship between those two guys, between Trapper John and Hawkeye Pierce.
Guest:But they've always come across to me as they think they're the smartest guys in the room.
Guest:They probably are the smartest guys in the room.
Guest:And they're funny and you wish that they were your friends too.
Guest:But then the more you watch them and the more you think about them, the more you realize these guys are actually kind of mean.
Guest:There's something kind of nasty about them.
Guest:They can be mean, I guess is what it is.
Guest:And that's why I decided, well...
Guest:why do I feel that way?
Guest:And what is it about them?
Guest:And I have, you know, growing up and living in houses with a bunch of other guys, just when you're trying to live in the city and it's too expensive and you live with four or five other guys, you get to, you know, you get to live out of other people's pockets sometimes, you know, when you get that friendship and it can, it's kind of a love hate thing where you're kind of pissed off with people and you love them at the same time.
Guest:And I wanted to see that relationship, but just turned up a little bit and just made a little bit meaner.
Guest:And that's where Cactus and Duck came from.
Marc:These guys are morally bankrupt motherfuckers.
Guest:Yeah, but I mean, I don't know.
Guest:Maybe you didn't feel it, but you're charmed by them at the beginning of the film.
Guest:They're funny and they're smart and they're kind of like- You don't know what's up.
Guest:They're the coolest guys in the room.
Marc:Yeah, but I think what you did, now if I'm going to rethink M.A.S.H.,
Marc:And I think you captured a little bit of it by, you know, you did make them veterans.
Marc:And in MASH, you see the carnage every day.
Marc:And so you see the sort of detachment that is necessary.
Marc:And certainly that Sutherland's character, is he Pierce or is he Hawkeye or is he Trapper?
Marc:He's Hawkeye.
Marc:He's Hawkeye.
Marc:Struggling with it, you know, and both of them struggling to a degree, just the relentlessness of war.
Marc:It is an anti-war movie to...
Marc:So, like, they do have to create... There's obvious cynicism that's going to happen in that environment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hey, listen, I love the movie, too, and I love those characters.
Guest:So I don't get defensive about them, Mark.
Guest:I love those characters.
Guest:But at the same time, when they don't like something, when they see an injustice in the world, they can become very mean.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they do it from the right place.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But at the same time, when you see that, it's very easy to see, well, what if it comes from the wrong place?
Guest:What if they just want to...
Guest:you know, what if they're vindictive?
Guest:What if they just hate someone?
Marc:It's weird that you landed on those two characters.
Marc:Of all the characters in the history of film that you decided to make into these, to kind of riff on.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:On a morality level.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You pick those two guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Now, what is your experience with Altman in general?
Marc:Are you a big Altman fan?
Guest:I'm a big MASH fan in particular.
Guest:I mean, I'm, you know, I know some of his other films.
Marc:Like McCabe and Mrs. Miller is my fucking movie.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:I like that one.
Marc:Yeah, and I like M.A.S.H.
Marc:too.
Marc:But like McCabe and Mrs. Miller, I watch over and over again.
Guest:I think why I gravitate to M.A.S.H.
Guest:is that brotherly bond.
Guest:That, to me, was always such an interesting relationship.
Guest:You see man-women relationships all the time, and you see other kinds of relationships.
Guest:But the strangeness of male bonding, I think, is something that I find really kind of intriguing.
Guest:You a Peckinpah guy?
Guest:Uh, not, I mean, I, I, I know Peckinpah films, but no, I'm not, not in any kind of.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because like, you know, like, cause there's like a, the end of straw dogs, you know, like where, where it's just Dustin Hoffman, the mathematician and the local pedophile driving away.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, as the, the closing marriage of the film in a way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:getting out uh you know that's some dark man shit he's real good with dark male shit bonding dark male bonding yeah is the peckinpah thing you know you may should do a i need to to do yourself a film festival yeah exactly watch the wild bunch and then you could see bob dylan maybe talk to jacob about it and then uh circles circles i love it they're very clever
Marc:for those who haven't seen this room it's just a circle there are no corners to hide in it all ends up in bob dylan doesn't everything really so but but like okay so you because i i'm wary to give away too much about the dynamic but yeah paul rudd who like as we were saying before movie star who is generally cute yeah uh you know starts out cute here and when i felt him starting to get menacing in the movie yeah i'm like i don't know if i'm going to be able to
Marc:I'm not going to be able to suspend my disbelief to believe that he's a fucking monster.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, he does.
Marc:He gets there.
Marc:You get there.
Marc:Justin Theroux, I'm never clear about anyway.
Marc:So for him to shift morally or be a monster.
Guest:It was too easy to be like, yep.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:I think he might really be like that.
Marc:Of course not.
Marc:That's a lot to put on a guy.
Guest:Not that I need to say this, but he's an amazing, very funny, very sweet guy.
Marc:I've met him.
Marc:I gave him a ride once to a thing.
Marc:And I do appreciate... I'm a big fan of Tropic Thunder.
Marc:and i and i know like he he is a part of the conception of that yeah yeah he wrote uh he wrote it and like uh you know i talked to him he seemed like good guy yeah yeah and and and you and what was the process of getting uh scars guard what's his first name again alexander alexander scars guard yeah um
Guest:like you couldn't have who did you originally think when you're 15 years ago yeah but like who did you think that could do it one of the guys was ray stevenson i don't even know if you'd know him there was a tv show on hbo called rome did you ever see rome no um he's he was he was in that in that show and i thought he was terrific in that i mean he he he was really an interesting actor irish actor uh-huh
Guest:He's an amazing actor and, you know, I thought he would be great.
Guest:And then, you know, 16 years later, you know, as time flew by, it just, you know, things moved on and then saw Alexander in, it was, gosh, what was that show called?
Marc:Big Little Lies?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:This is a long time ago.
Guest:Generation Kill.
Guest:I saw Alexander in Generation Kill.
Marc:That was the war one.
Guest:Yeah, I thought he was really interesting in that.
Guest:So when I got the chance to look at the short list, because the short list of tall people is what I was looking at.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:He was someone that I always thought, oh, yeah, there is some real nuance and interesting things that he could do as an actor.
Guest:Because I needed the physical presence of someone that...
Guest:All of the people that he meets in the movie can bring their own baggage.
Guest:They sort of see this big, quiet guy.
Guest:Are they intimidated by him?
Guest:Do they think he's a dummy?
Guest:Do they think that he's just a tall, silent type?
Guest:But at the same time, I need a great actor who can carry that character when they're on their own and there's no dialogue to hold that character.
Marc:That was some discipline.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And the vulnerability and strength of it.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:That was no easy trick.
Guest:It's real acting.
Marc:It really was.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what was it like being on the set with that?
Guest:It's great.
Guest:In between takes, he was talking as much as he could.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Yeah, he's a funny guy.
Guest:He's a fun person to be with, and I think he had to kind of put himself in that place when we were doing takes.
Marc:But how he becomes mute is the way the film opens, and it's pretty lurid.
Marc:LAUGHTER
Marc:I imagine it's not a riff on the opening of Sunset Boulevard.
Guest:No, but I don't mind talking about it.
Guest:It's right at the start of the film.
Guest:Basically, as a kid, he gets hit by a motorboat and the propeller cuts open his throat.
Marc:You don't see that.
Marc:The movie opens with a kid floating in the water with his neck cut open.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, you put it together in a second.
Guest:And I wonder why the studios didn't want to make it and we had to do it on Netflix.
Guest:Is that really?
Guest:It was too dark.
Guest:It was always considered too dark and too weird.
Guest:And, you know, you've seen it.
Guest:You know what the characters are like.
Guest:It's a lot of ugliness, hopefully buoyed up by some charm and some humor and...
Guest:an ending that we can feel good about.
Guest:No, I loved it.
Guest:I loved the ending.
Marc:And I, you know, I didn't, I don't know, like, you know, I know that you talk about Blade Runner, but, you know, in terms of... Just aesthetic.
Guest:I mean, it's just really having a living... That period?
Marc:A living, breathing... That period of possible future.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's set in a similar period.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:It's a science fiction believable city.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:It's set in a, in a, in the same fake...
Marc:manufactured possible future.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:While Rutger Hauer is walking around Highland Park, this is going on in Berlin.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:It's going on in Berlin.
Marc:But that movie, I haven't watched it in a while.
Marc:So that was Ridley Scott.
Marc:Did Ridley Scott?
Marc:Yeah, Ridley Scott made that.
Marc:And Tony Scott, what was Tony the guy you met when you were a kid?
Guest:Top Gun was probably the one he's most well-known.
Marc:Did he do the American Gangster too?
Marc:that was Ridley that was Ridley Scott I like that movie yeah I can watch Denzel do anything True Romance was a good Tony Scott yeah yeah absolutely that was a Quentin Tarantino script yeah right Days of Thunder he did some big movies Enemy of the State what was that oh yeah that was Will Smith and Gene Hackman Gene Hackman
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Why did he retire?
Marc:I know.
Marc:He's so fucking good.
Marc:French Connection.
Marc:Anything.
Marc:The guy just had a thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the French Connection, when was the last time you watched that?
Guest:Probably not that long ago.
Marc:It's great, right?
Guest:Just for mood and tone.
Guest:I think we kind of watched it as part of getting ready for mute.
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Marc:Because you're driving under the... You're chasing the... Yeah, you see?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:yeah they're looking up and chasing yeah exactly yeah that's from french connection i know it i immediately knew it yeah i immediately fucking knew it yeah and then uh paul schrader's hardcore as well was a big inspiration for this film oh my god do you remember that one sure do i didn't realize he didn't direct it but he wrote hardcore i thought he directed it with georgie scott yeah yeah paul schrader directed that
Marc:Oh, no wonder.
Guest:I don't know why it didn't put that together.
Guest:So that mixed with a little sci-fi.
Guest:That's kind of what I was going for.
Guest:That little Lee Marvin from Point Blank.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:He did it.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Of course that's fucking... I don't know why I didn't put that together.
Marc:I just talked to Nick Nolte in here.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, because Paul Schrader, Affliction, Taxi Driver, Autofocus was him writing and directing it.
Marc:I think he did the third Exorcist, maybe.
Marc:i didn't know about that i i think but like wow man see like that just blows my mind because of course that's a fucking paul schrader movie right yeah or hardcore yeah i mean that's straight out of his his i mean why wouldn't he does
Guest:But you can see the inspirations now of kind of where it's at.
Guest:I mean, it's not a science fiction movie in that there's some technology and it's all about how that affects the world.
Guest:It's a 70s noir-ish thriller that happens to take place in the future.
Marc:I talked to Elliot Gould in here too.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I would, oh, I would die to have Donald Sutherland and Elliot Gould watch this movie.
Guest:I just, that would be my dream.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Just to be a fly on the wall with those guys watching this movie.
Marc:I wonder what, you know, Elliot's kind of a, you know, he's a circuitous talker.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:A loopy dude.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sort of semi-spiritual kind of, you know, ongoing.
Marc:Like, you feel like, you know, every time you've talked to Elliot, because I had him on my TV show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That you're entering the conversation mid-conversation.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like, you know, right when you start, you're like, whoa, whoa, wait, what, back up?
Marc:Wait, wait, what's happening?
Marc:Yeah, where are we coming from?
Marc:What are we talking about?
Marc:That's his trip.
Marc:And, you know, and then you think it's your fault.
Marc:You're like, wait, okay, I got to follow this.
Marc:So now the shooting it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That must have been kind of tricky.
Marc:So, I mean, you did shoot in Berlin.
Marc:Was that necessary?
Guest:Maybe not 100%, but it was necessary for me.
Guest:Budgetarily?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, it would have been probably cheaper to find some other Eastern European city to shoot in.
Marc:But it seems like a lot of it was on set.
Guest:Half and half.
Guest:It was 50% in sets that we built at Studio Babelsberg where Fritz Lang shot Metropolis.
Guest:Oh, so there you go.
Marc:So that's amazing.
Marc:But did you go there on purpose because of that?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So you got a little mysticism going.
Guest:I don't know if it was mysticism or just I got a filmmaker chubby about the idea of being at Studio Babelsberg.
Guest:But you're telling me you didn't think there was magic in there?
Guest:No, I don't believe in that stuff.
Guest:no how can you be fucking every god oh my god all right and then the other half of the film was shot in locations around berlin so and and what's the the beauty of being in berlin is that we were able to find places that we would have never have thought to look for you know what is berlin like now
Guest:It's amazing.
Guest:It's an incredibly dynamic, fast-changing, artistic city that really is right now, I think, at the crash of Eastern and Western civilization.
Guest:I mean, between all the Eastern European and Russian immigrants coming into Berlin and all the Turks coming up, and then those from the West who want to come there for some kind of artistic inspiration, it's an amazing, incredibly vibrant place.
Marc:But I imagine that artistic inspiration is different than when your old man did like Heroes Era because that was the Cold War thing.
Marc:It was dark, right?
Marc:It was like Fassbender.
Guest:It was cheap is what it was.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Back when my dad went there, we were broke because he had no money.
Guest:And we went to Berlin and he was trying to sort of find himself and clearing himself up and things like that.
Guest:These days, it's more of an artistic mecca.
Guest:It's kind of just somewhere that a lot of people want to go for inspiration.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:I think people want to go there because they want to be inspired, whereas we went there out of necessity.
Marc:Yeah, and it was dark and gloomy, and what was coming out of there felt like that.
Marc:The tension of the Cold War and the disposition that was left over from the Second World War.
Guest:But I would say in all cases, whether it was back then or now, it's always had this really interesting energy.
Guest:It feels not an energy in a supernatural way.
Marc:Why are you so against that?
Marc:I mean, come on.
Marc:You come from magic.
Marc:Own it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It just feels like there is a sense that things are changing and people are excited about the change there.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's interesting, though, that you don't have any of that.
Marc:And I don't always either.
Marc:I'm not a full believer in mystical ideas.
Marc:But the idea of making science fiction movies is magic.
Marc:Movies are magic.
Marc:Now I'm watering down my... You go to where Fritz Lang shot Metropolis and you're just sort of like, eh, just a nerd thing.
Guest:Not like, you know, now we can pull some of the energy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:I will be a conduit for this power.
Guest:None of that?
Guest:No.
Marc:All right.
Marc:All right, dude.
Marc:So what about the... Now, since this was something that evolved in your mind, why the Amishing?
Marc:Did you get that from the movie Witness?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, that was four years in Worcester, Ohio, Amish country.
Marc:Oh, that's where that came from.
Guest:When I was at college there.
Guest:And when I was thinking about the film and why is this guy in the future not able to talk, surely the technology would exist, as you see in the film.
Guest:But to me, it made sense.
Guest:Well, it's probably a religious reason.
Guest:And if it's a religious reason, what religion is it?
Guest:Amish makes sense.
Guest:Why did the Amish end up in Germany?
Guest:Well, in the same way that the Jews have come to Israel because they've been called to come back to the homeland,
Guest:In my crazy idea of the future, the German, you know, German politicians have wanted to draw all Germanic people back to Germany to try and reinvigorate, you know, cultures and traditional German morals.
Guest:And they've asked the Amish to come back to Germany.
Marc:That's the backstory.
Guest:That's the kind of, yeah, my idea is that after Angela Merkel and the mass immigration of other cultures into Germany, there would be a backlash.
Guest:And that backlash would involve far right German parties asking white Germanic people to come back to Germany.
Guest:The Amish that were originally Germanic?
Guest:Switzerland, Germany.
Guest:Is that true?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they came over with the big need to have the Midwest farmed.
Marc:Why did they end up here?
Guest:I think it was like a second phase of freedom of religion and the chance to live their lifestyle the way they wanted without being interfered with.
Guest:And America seemed to be the place to do that.
Marc:And I think that if I'm remembering properly the book, The Great Plains, that there was sort of an open invitation.
Marc:to people that were able to farm in rough terrain to come and have land in the states if they would figure out how to make the fucking land work in the midwest wow yeah that makes sense yeah like that's where you get like scandinavian that's where you get winter wheat yeah that like these people that come from generations of farming hard land yeah they're like we'll give you some if you can come make it work yeah yeah yeah
Marc:So, okay, so the Amish.
Marc:Now, when you're scripting it, what's the decision to not include some of that rich, bizarro backstory?
Guest:There's only, you know, you want to make a movie that... Tight.
Guest:Yeah, you want to make a movie tight.
Guest:We did shoot some stuff.
Guest:We had some things that were there to fill that out.
Guest:But just in the editing process, you go to the core of what is the story that we're trying to tell.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:I like the way that there's several movies for evil intent and also for good reasons have the recurring trinket.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You like the trinkets.
Marc:I like the recurring trinket where the whole movie gets tied together with the trinket.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Rosebud.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a sled.
Yeah.
Guest:He just ruined that movie for... Oh, spoiler words on the Citizen Kane.
Marc:It's a fucking sweat.
Guest:It's a sweat.
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:Too early, too soon.
Marc:Yeah, but believe me, now that everything's available, people will accuse you of spoiling movies that are 50 years old because they haven't gotten to it yet.
Marc:You know, fuck you.
Marc:You can't talk about anything.
Marc:It's a sweat, you know...
Marc:Scheider kills the shark.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:But I am glad that it did have that poetically... There's a head in the box.
Guest:There's a head in the box.
Guest:that had a poetically satisfying ending you know yeah had your father seen some of your work did he watch moon yeah yeah he did he came to sundance to watch it oh yeah yeah which was amazing because he didn't like to travel much by the by that point yeah you know he already wasn't wasn't keen on traveling but he came out to sundance and we had an amazing time um watching you know having having him in the audience watching moon with me oh wow so that was great yeah and um he must have been proud did he say it
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's always been very, very supportive of anything that I tried to do because I've tried to take stuff seriously.
Guest:I try to do it properly.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:Hard worker.
Guest:I try to be.
Marc:Well, he definitely was too.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, if there's one thing you got there, that guy was always working.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It took me a long time to work it out, what I wanted to do, but when I got there, I go for it.
Marc:And what about, how many siblings you got?
Guest:Um, I've got, uh, half, I have two half sisters and one stepsister.
Marc:Oh yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And does everyone get along there?
Guest:Um, well, they're all really different ages and no, I mean, there's, there's, you know, I, I, I keep in contact mainly with my, my one half sister who's Iman's daughter.
Guest:Um, you know, that she's the one that I'm closest to of, of the three.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:In age?
Marc:Uh, no, I mean, huge difference.
Guest:I'm 30 years older than her.
Guest:Oh wow.
Guest:So my relationship is more as like a fun uncle.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Well, that's nice that you show up and they're part of your family.
Marc:They know your kid.
Marc:Ah, see, that makes me happy.
Marc:But here's a question.
Marc:In terms of this science fiction thing and in terms of your life in general, do you think...
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That your sort of obsession with it is a way to manage your own feelings?
Guest:Like to get away from them or to... No, I mean, I definitely see Moon and Mute in particular are therapy in their own way.
Guest:I channel a lot of my own stuff into my movies as much as possible.
Guest:Even something as...
Guest:superficially commercial as Warcraft, which was this big fantasy film that I made.
Guest:I channeled a lot of personal stuff into that too.
Marc:That was based on the game?
Guest:That was based on the game.
Marc:And did a lot of people enjoy that movie?
Guest:It did well internationally.
Guest:It did not do great here in the US.
Guest:So it was kind of a weird one.
Marc:Did Warcraft fans like it?
Guest:um pretty split between loving it and and those who were just you know fuck this he doesn't get it yeah exactly but it was it was it was a good split but wasn't that your audience though i mean those were i mean you were banking on at least half of them were you right yeah but um you know did you play work was what it was yeah i played warcraft yeah when i was in graduate school
Marc:So then along that same line, what were you working out in Moon, like in terms of emotionally?
Guest:In Moon, I was going through a long-distance relationship at the time.
Guest:And I had just left, you know, not just left, but it was recent enough graduate school, three years of graduate school, feeling totally alienated from the culture and the place where I was that I felt very isolated.
Guest:So that's what was going into Moon.
Guest:Oh, interesting.
Guest:And the long-distance relationship, obviously, was part of it.
Guest:So that was the sort of therapy side of Moon.
Guest:And then Mute really does have a pretty strong subtext about parenting and about what parenting can do to you and what your responsibilities are as a parent to look after those that are looking up to you.
Marc:Now, when he's drinking the water like he drinks it, is he constantly trying to transcend the trauma?
Marc:Do you know all that time in the water?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, the fact that water... Again, the film begins and ends with water, really.
Guest:That was something I took away from... I think it was a talk that Takeshi Kitano gave about movies.
Guest:You know him, B Takeshi?
Guest:He's a Japanese actor and director.
Guest:Worth looking up his movies if you haven't seen any of his.
Guest:He's fantastic.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:What was it talking about?
Guest:It was really just about how...
Guest:Going back to sort of spiritualism, but not believing in it, but just that there isn't.
Marc:You want to make that clear.
Guest:He doesn't believe in magic.
Guest:No, I do not believe in this.
Marc:No spiritualism.
Guest:He's got a math brain.
Guest:But I do like the idea that life comes from water and in telling stories.
Guest:I think that there is something which feels fundamentally right about a film or a story that begins at water and ends at water.
Guest:It's that circle that you're talking about, that cycle.
Guest:So I tried to make that work in Mute.
Marc:And he had the wood shop.
Marc:That was interesting.
Marc:Throw that in.
Marc:He shows up with his hand-carved bat.
Guest:His big phallic bat that he's made.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:about his love with dolphins on it.
Marc:Oh, fish again.
Marc:Fish and dolphins also.
Marc:You can breathe in and out of water.
Guest:I mean, there are a couple of little semi hidden allusions to dad and what he did.
Guest:And obviously in Heroes, there's this whole dolphin theme in that.
Guest:So there's kind of stuff throughout the film that's a little more subtle.
Marc:Well, I felt that, because I had to think that because it was in Berlin, and that he certainly had written songs about future scapes, but I didn't know there was a dolphin thing in Heroes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What is it?
Guest:It's in the lyrics.
Marc:Oh, yeah, if dolphins get swimming.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Well, I hope I didn't offend you by talking about him a little bit.
Marc:Not at all.
Guest:And I love the movie.
Guest:This is the fourth film I've made.
Guest:And I always promise myself, if people bring it up on my fifth film, I'm going to stab them.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that part of what's making you angry?
Marc:I won't bring it up.
Marc:I won't bring it up.
Marc:Really?
Marc:But I think all people want.
Marc:The weird thing is that I don't want you to tell me stories about him.
Marc:I want to know what kind of guy he was.
Marc:Because all we know, we've got about 10 to choose from.
Marc:Oh, there's so many books.
Marc:But so many Bowies.
Marc:You can choose your own.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So like when I got you, I'm like, does he just eat like a person?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Marc:That's all.
Marc:I'm not taking away from your talent.
Marc:I love what you do.
Marc:You've become a fine man, a great director, and he was great at what he did.
Marc:You're totally different, but it's nice to know that he was a good dad.
Guest:Just promise me when my son has a career as a dancer that you ask him all about me.
Guest:Just me.
Marc:Just talk about me.
Marc:I don't think I overdid it today.
Marc:Do you?
Marc:No, you got away with it.
Marc:Oh, thank God.
Marc:I know there was a frozen, you froze up for a second.
Marc:I'm like, oh, but didn't stop me.
Marc:Didn't stop me from weaving it in.
Marc:You're a pro.
Marc:And you volunteered the dolphin thing.
Marc:I did.
Marc:I did.
Marc:Thank you for doing that.
Marc:Yeah, you're welcome.
Marc:And it was great talking to you.
Marc:Yeah, you too.
Marc:Thanks, Mark.
Marc:Okay, that's our show.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Go to the tour.
Marc:WTFPod.com slash tour for my dates in London, Oslo, Stockholm, Amsterdam, and Dublin, and also Pasadena.
Marc:I can play guitar because I hooked up these boxes.
Marc:And I hooked them up the last time I played, and it was fun, so I'm going to do it again.
Marc:All right?
Okay.
Marc:Thank you.
.
.
Guest:.
Guest:Boomer lives.