Episode 886 - Ezra Furman / David Wain

Episode 886 • Released January 31, 2018 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fucksters i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf

00:00:18Marc:Welcome to it.

00:00:19Marc:Welcome to the show.

00:00:21Marc:How's it going?

00:00:22Marc:You all right?

00:00:22Marc:Oh, come on, man.

00:00:23Marc:Don't be that way.

00:00:26Marc:Come on.

00:00:27Marc:Come on.

00:00:27Marc:Open up your heart and let all the terror in.

00:00:32Marc:Go ahead.

00:00:33Marc:Open up your heart and just feel.

00:00:35Marc:Feel the panic.

00:00:37Marc:I'm the worst meditation leader.

00:00:42Marc:Hey, I want everyone to take a deep breath.

00:00:46Marc:Yeah, take a deep breath.

00:00:47Marc:Let it out through your nose.

00:00:50Marc:I think that's the way it goes.

00:00:51Marc:That's right, right?

00:00:52Marc:Clear your mind.

00:00:53Marc:Clear your mind.

00:00:54Marc:Just focus.

00:00:55Marc:Focus on...

00:00:56Marc:on the day ahead.

00:00:58Marc:Focus on the day ahead.

00:00:59Marc:Focus on just everything that can go wrong today.

00:01:02Marc:Just focus on just the little things.

00:01:04Marc:Start off small.

00:01:06Marc:Have you gotten your coffee yet?

00:01:07Marc:That could spill on your lap, right?

00:01:09Marc:I don't even know if I'd stop.

00:01:11Marc:Did you stop already?

00:01:12Marc:Just be careful with the coffee.

00:01:13Marc:Don't dump that new thermos of coffee onto your lap or onto the car.

00:01:17Marc:Don't drop any food onto your lap.

00:01:19Marc:Think about all the things that could go wrong today and just dwell on them a minute.

00:01:24Marc:Yeah, you could get to work and, you know, your job's not there.

00:01:27Marc:Yeah, think about that.

00:01:28Marc:Yeah, how's that?

00:01:29Marc:You getting angry?

00:01:30Marc:You getting aggravated?

00:01:31Marc:You getting tense?

00:01:32Marc:You getting terrified?

00:01:34Marc:Yeah, think about the world.

00:01:35Marc:Think about how there's no, you know, we're not part of the Paris Accords anymore and how, you know, we're just going to push aside all the clean energy entrepreneurial adventures and all the possibilities of clean energy and just reinvest in fossil fuels and coal.

00:01:50Marc:Think about that day where all of us will not be able to breathe at the same time, that look we'll have as we go.

00:01:56Marc:I guess we're all going together.

00:01:57Marc:Think about the piece of that.

00:01:59Marc:Think about that, how nobody will miss anything because we'll all be gone the same few hours.

00:02:03Marc:Is this negative?

00:02:04Marc:I don't think it's negative.

00:02:05Marc:I think it's important to acknowledge and realize this.

00:02:07Marc:Think about your own time on this planet and how short it is.

00:02:13Marc:Breathe in.

00:02:15Marc:Open up your heart to this.

00:02:16Marc:Open up your heart to just the pure existential terror that we're constantly trying to hide from ourselves.

00:02:21Marc:Breathe out.

00:02:22Marc:Just breathe out all that peace of mind.

00:02:24Marc:Breathe out all of that well-being.

00:02:26Marc:Breathe out all of that gratitude.

00:02:28Marc:Breathe in the darkness and the fear.

00:02:32Marc:am i doing this wrong am i doing it wrong god damn it i think i'm doing it wrong all right folks look i didn't mention who was on the show today uh two guests david wayne you know david wayne from the state from stella from his directorial adventures in film uh he's got a new movie it's about doug kenny from the national lampoon and it's about the that that beginning and

00:02:57Marc:of that magazine it's called a futile and stupid gesture it's now streaming on netflix he'll be here in a minute and i was very happy to have ezra firman on the show ezra firman has a new album it's called trans angelic exodus comes out on february 9th and he was just a guy that i don't know i got some i'll get into in a minute what do we what do we need to talk about where where are we at the cats are starting to come to the new house isn't that odd

00:03:22Marc:i'm sorry you know i'm sort of dug in over there a bit kind of still in between houses obviously i'm still in here here at the garage still work getting gun going on here but uh saw a cat on my uh on my new front uh stoop a cat they're coming they know where i am word is out the cats are on the move on the move david wayne and i go back

00:03:44Marc:David Wayne and I go way back to the beginnings of our comedy careers.

00:03:49Marc:I didn't know him during the state, but I knew him after when all of those guys started to do stand up.

00:03:54Marc:And it's been a long time since I had him on.

00:03:57Marc:He was on he was on a very early WTF.

00:03:59Marc:And he's here now to talk about his new film about the National Lampoon, a futile and stupid gesture.

00:04:06Marc:Now streaming on Netflix.

00:04:07Marc:This is me and David Wayne.

00:04:09Marc:so david wayne it's been a long time since we chatted i looked it up with eight years ago is it really yeah eight years ago is the original wtf isn't that incredible it's a whole different world i don't even remember what you're promoting but you were married changed i wasn't promoting anything you ran into me on the street in new york and said i'm doing a podcast come talk to me it was that early on oh yeah

00:04:35Guest:A lot of my life was pretty different, yeah.

00:04:39Guest:I lived in New York at the time.

00:04:40Guest:New York, diehard New Yorker.

00:04:42Guest:Yeah, I had a second kid since then.

00:04:43Guest:Right.

00:04:43Guest:I've made like three movies.

00:04:45Guest:I've done a lot of things, moved to LA.

00:04:48Guest:You're not married anymore?

00:04:49Marc:Not married, got divorced.

00:04:51Marc:Wow, a lot of this happened.

00:04:52Marc:Yeah.

00:04:53Marc:The entire country has changed for the worse?

00:04:55Marc:The whole country has changed.

00:04:55Marc:Everything's terrifying?

00:04:57Marc:And you've made another movie.

00:05:00Marc:And I just made another movie now, yeah.

00:05:02Marc:I know, that's why you're here.

00:05:03Marc:That's what brings you here.

00:05:04Marc:Aside from friendship.

00:05:06Guest:That was the impetus.

00:05:08Guest:What reminded me to want to come was that.

00:05:11Guest:How long have you lived here?

00:05:13Guest:About four years now.

00:05:14Guest:Really?

00:05:14Guest:Yeah.

00:05:15Guest:When my oldest son started kindergarten and I'm like, I was looking at the calendar and it looks like I'll probably be away nine months next year.

00:05:22Guest:Right.

00:05:22Guest:In LA.

00:05:23Marc:Yeah.

00:05:23Guest:So I'm like, this is stupid.

00:05:24Marc:And how old's that kid now?

00:05:27Marc:He just turned 10.

00:05:28Guest:And how old's the other one?

00:05:29Guest:Seven.

00:05:30Guest:Just today.

00:05:31Guest:They're young kids.

00:05:32Guest:Today's his birthday.

00:05:33Guest:Really?

00:05:33Guest:And you're here?

00:05:34Guest:Yeah.

00:05:34Guest:Where's he?

00:05:35Guest:He's in school.

00:05:36Guest:I was just at his school.

00:05:36Guest:Oh, it's Friday.

00:05:37Guest:Yeah.

00:05:38Guest:I was just giving him and his classmates some donuts.

00:05:41Guest:And is the mom here?

00:05:43Guest:The mom's here too.

00:05:43Guest:The mom was there with me.

00:05:45Guest:Uh-huh.

00:05:46Guest:We're friends.

00:05:47Guest:You are?

00:05:47Guest:Yeah.

00:05:48Marc:Well, that's good.

00:05:49Marc:We see each other all the time.

00:05:50Marc:Oh, good.

00:05:50Marc:Yeah.

00:05:51Marc:That's nice.

00:05:51Marc:And what part of town did you settle in?

00:05:54Marc:Studio City.

00:05:55Marc:Oh, there's some nice homes up there.

00:05:57Marc:Oh, it's great.

00:05:58Marc:I know a lot of people that live up there.

00:05:59Guest:Well, coming from New York, I found a little spot where I can walk to the coffee and the pizza.

00:06:05Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:06:06Guest:Do you really do that, David?

00:06:07Guest:I do because it's really right there.

00:06:09Guest:And so I go with my kids.

00:06:10Guest:Like this morning, we walked to the little coffee shop for breakfast.

00:06:13Marc:Okay.

00:06:13Guest:Special birthday breakfast with my kids.

00:06:15Marc:Because I did that when I moved here.

00:06:16Marc:I moved over by Franklin, by that one block where the Gelson's is and the old UCB and the bourgeois pig and the chicken place.

00:06:25Marc:And I was like, this feels like New York.

00:06:26Marc:It's a block at three stores.

00:06:28Marc:Within a week, you're driving everywhere.

00:06:30Guest:I don't think it feels like New York, but it's just a nice thing to not have to get in your car sometimes.

00:06:35Marc:Yeah.

00:06:35Marc:Rarely though, right?

00:06:37Guest:Yeah.

00:06:39Marc:I go to that strip a lot.

00:06:40Marc:Oh, good.

00:06:40Marc:All right.

00:06:41Marc:I also bike a lot.

00:06:43Marc:I try to stay on the car.

00:06:44Marc:Oh, I need to exercise.

00:06:45Marc:I can't even talk about it.

00:06:46Marc:I've been on a shoot for months and the craft services, I'm just eating out of self-contempt.

00:06:52Marc:Yeah.

00:06:53Marc:So the National Lampoon movie.

00:06:55Marc:Yeah.

00:06:56Guest:A Feudal and Stupid Gesture, it's called.

00:06:58Marc:I ended up, I got a screener of it the day before yesterday and I watched it yesterday because my call time was pushed.

00:07:06Marc:So I'm like, well, I guess I'll watch David's movie.

00:07:08Marc:I'm so glad you did that.

00:07:09Marc:It's the first one of your movies I've seen in a while.

00:07:11Marc:Nothing personal.

00:07:11Marc:Don't worry about it.

00:07:12Guest:Yeah.

00:07:13Guest:I think we live in this great era in our business where there's absolutely no expectation that you've seen your friend's stuff because there's too much stuff out there.

00:07:21Marc:Yeah.

00:07:21Marc:And it's sort of like, I don't really, it's a matter of time.

00:07:24Marc:Yeah.

00:07:25Marc:And then you're like, oh, that's right.

00:07:26Marc:He did that one.

00:07:27Marc:I should get back to that.

00:07:28Marc:And also I think we live in an era where the party's always ongoing.

00:07:32Marc:There's no late to the party.

00:07:34Marc:You just get back to it.

00:07:35Guest:You're never going to have an, everything's on all the time.

00:07:37Marc:That's right.

00:07:38Marc:Everything's on all the time.

00:07:39Marc:But I had an interest in the subject matter.

00:07:42Marc:I'm a heavily National Lampoon influenced person.

00:07:46Marc:And are you interested in comedy?

00:07:48Marc:No, that had no pull from you.

00:07:50Marc:But the Lampoon, I... Yeah, of course I am.

00:07:55Marc:But how old are you?

00:07:56Marc:48.

00:07:57Marc:Okay, so I'm 54.

00:07:59Marc:Yeah.

00:08:00Marc:Like when I was, I guess the first issue of Lampoon was probably like 71 of National Lampoon or so.

00:08:06Guest:Yeah, 70, I think.

00:08:06Marc:1970.

00:08:06Marc:Somewhere in there.

00:08:07Marc:With the duck and the woman.

00:08:08Marc:Right.

00:08:09Marc:Like there's a chapter in my life where I coveted the National Lampoon because in 1970 I was like...

00:08:17Marc:Seven.

00:08:18Marc:But like I'd see it on the newsstands and it was always very compelling and lurid and something grown up about it.

00:08:23Marc:And then I started reading it around.

00:08:25Marc:I can't remember what issue it was, but it was all very mind blowing.

00:08:28Marc:It was clearly adult humor.

00:08:30Marc:Yeah.

00:08:31Marc:Because I was a Mad Magazine kid.

00:08:32Marc:Me too.

00:08:33Marc:Right.

00:08:33Marc:So like that was the jump, you know, Mad Magazine to National Lampoon.

00:08:37Marc:Right.

00:08:37Marc:And when you made that, you definitely felt like it was a rite of passage.

00:08:41Marc:And it was for me, it was like, you know, 13, probably 14, maybe years old.

00:08:45Guest:Yeah, see, I never quite made the jump.

00:08:47Guest:I never felt like I was smart enough.

00:08:49Guest:Because I think being just that much younger also, the height of the lampoon was, I was already, it was already kind of declining by the time I was old enough to read it.

00:08:59Guest:Uh-huh.

00:09:00Marc:oh i get it i get it yeah no i it was still pretty vital uh by when i was in it because it was still the 70s because i was i was bar mitzvahed in 76 okay good so you know it was still i think it was still at the height really wasn't it at that time it was and it was it was like i just remember like there were certain things that like stick in my mind uh the what's the great story where the guy wakes up with a vagina

00:09:26Marc:Right, yeah.

00:09:26Marc:That was great.

00:09:28Marc:I remember the Eddie Bauer catalog satire because of the pictures.

00:09:33Marc:Some of it goes so far, too.

00:09:35Marc:It really gets edgy in a way that I don't know.

00:09:37Marc:Oh, it's crazy.

00:09:38Marc:And the Michael Donahue stuff was way out there.

00:09:41Marc:Out of his mind.

00:09:42Marc:And I still have, I think I still have somewhere the yearbook satire.

00:09:47Marc:Which is awesome.

00:09:48Marc:Which you spent a lot of time on in, or a little bit of time on in the movie.

00:09:51Marc:Yeah.

00:09:51Marc:And the comics in National Lampoon were great too.

00:09:53Marc:And the photo funnies, which you used to sort of, you used a lot of devices in the movie to keep it going, keep it moving, keep it funny.

00:10:01Marc:Yeah.

00:10:01Marc:And keep it cohesive too.

00:10:03Marc:Well, it was cohesive, but you have a timeline there.

00:10:05Marc:Yeah.

00:10:06Marc:But there were some very meta elements that were funny devices that kind of did not distract from the story and it made it kind of lively.

00:10:14Guest:Doing a biopic is an interesting challenge and I've never done anything like it.

00:10:18Marc:Well, what compelled you?

00:10:20Marc:What comedic spirit compels you?

00:10:22Guest:Well, I mean, there's obvious reasons why I'd be interested in it because it's about the thing that I do, comedy, and it's kind of like chronicling the generation that came one or two before mine did.

00:10:32Guest:Yeah.

00:10:33Guest:It's our community paying homage to the earlier community.

00:10:36Guest:But the project was not initiated by me.

00:10:38Guest:Colton and Abood, Michael Colton and John Abood, got together with Peter Principato and John Stern, who were the producers of it, and then they came to me with the book that was written by Josh Karp in 2003.

00:10:53Guest:And we've been working though together on it since before they wrote that first draft of the biography of Doug Kenny, the biography of Doug Kenny, the founder.

00:11:01Guest:Yeah.

00:11:01Guest:And so, uh, it's been almost 10 years we've been working on this together and trying to crack the nut of how do you tell a whole life story and you know, how do you put it on film?

00:11:12Guest:And it was a really, uh, it was a really cool thing.

00:11:15Guest:I've never done anything that was about real people and some of whom are still alive.

00:11:18Guest:And, um, so we together kind of did it.

00:11:23Marc:So how did you, like early on, because when you think biopic and you think about biopics, the one thing that was sort of playing in your favor is that your main character was not as visibly recognizable to most people.

00:11:39Guest:Well, to me, this is one of the big appeals of this.

00:11:41Guest:This is somebody that most people have never heard of.

00:11:43Guest:Right.

00:11:43Guest:And if you're a comedy nerd, maybe, but most people have never even heard the name.

00:11:46Guest:Right.

00:11:47Guest:But he was such a pivotal, central figure in the creation of comedic point of view that we all are part of.

00:11:53Guest:Right.

00:11:53Marc:Sure.

00:11:53Marc:Well, yeah, going to SNL, to Ivan Reitman, to the film careers of that first crew of SNL people.

00:12:02Marc:Harold Ramis, yeah.

00:12:02Marc:Yeah, and the Lampoon in and of itself.

00:12:05Marc:It was very interesting.

00:12:06Marc:What made you decide to have...

00:12:08Guest:martin mull in in essence be a non-existent older doug kenny uh what what was that the initial impetus was that when i first uh started talking to the writers about how to shape it i felt like we should be as outside the box as we can uh and not just do a plotting chronological generic biopic about this guy who was far more interesting than that to me and and

00:12:33Guest:I wanted to, I feel like, well, what would Doug Kenny have enjoyed as his own life story?

00:12:38Guest:And also this idea of having the modern Doug Kenny narrate ended up being useful in so many different ways that helped us to tie together all these disparate episodes.

00:12:49Guest:And it gave it a modern day point of view on all this stuff, which I thought, which turned out to be pretty important to us because...

00:12:55Guest:the humor of it you know it has its own it exists in a time in a place in a context it's not all of it is funny in the way that it would be if you were saying like here it is today so you think so well it depends I mean certainly there's plenty of stuff in if you think about it you look at the first season of SNL the same thing there's some stuff that just doesn't feel as funny just because it feels old or not fresh and other things have changed because of the cultural yeah eyes have changed and

00:13:20Guest:Certainly, everyone's talked, you know, people talk a lot about how misogynist it was, which is true.

00:13:25Guest:It's hard.

00:13:25Guest:You can't deny it.

00:13:27Marc:But it seems like if you contextualize some of the more poignant and pointed satire from National Lampoon, you know, it's certainly worth its weight.

00:13:38Marc:You know, they weren't pulling any punches.

00:13:40Marc:And in some ways, you know, it was meant to go beyond funny to just tasteless.

00:13:44Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:13:45Guest:They were looking to push boundaries.

00:13:47Guest:Yeah.

00:13:48Guest:Sometimes more than be funny.

00:13:49Marc:Right, yeah, because there's that great scene where Matt Walsh is Maddie Simmons.

00:13:53Marc:Is it Maddie?

00:13:54Marc:You know, comes running down the hall in a montage of people suing.

00:13:57Guest:Right, everyone sued them.

00:13:58Guest:Yeah.

00:13:59Guest:And you know that they got off on that.

00:14:00Guest:You know, they were all about how exciting that was.

00:14:02Marc:But I noticed that there were, am I wrong in that, were there actors from Animal House, secondary actors from Animal House?

00:14:08Marc:Yes.

00:14:08Guest:in the film like was the woman on the tour bus was one of the cheerleaders smith who was the one who was the one who at the end of the of animal house not the cheerleader the babs the uh the uh sorority girlfriend yeah and was the guy who played nietermeier right he was he was one of the executives and he and so we tried to you know and made a little reference and in fact he says in the movie what are you going to do with your life right which is a reference to his that move that twisted sister music video that yeah yeah

00:14:38Guest:Right.

00:14:39Guest:You know, we like to just, we thought, why not have fun with this?

00:14:41Guest:We don't, we, we wanted to, in anything I do, I try to not take it too seriously in the wrong way, but take it seriously in the right way.

00:14:47Marc:But you did, how were the facts?

00:14:49Marc:Were they tight?

00:14:50Guest:I mean, did you bend the truth at all?

00:14:52Guest:It was so exhaustively researched and we knew everything that we were doing and what was right and what was wrong.

00:14:59Guest:But then we knew there's a part in the middle of the movie where we list all the things that we changed to, for dramatic reasons, you know?

00:15:04Guest:Yeah.

00:15:05Guest:And so, yeah, there's plenty of things in there that either we don't know or that we changed to tell a more clear story.

00:15:12Guest:And that's just, I think, what you have to do.

00:15:13Marc:And he had all these people that we had some, yeah, Joe's in it.

00:15:17Marc:Joe Giulio, yeah.

00:15:18Marc:Tom Lennon.

00:15:19Marc:Tom Lennon was great.

00:15:20Marc:Michael O'Donohue.

00:15:21Marc:He was great.

00:15:21Marc:He was really inspired, yeah.

00:15:23Guest:It was really a good performance.

00:15:25Guest:He's amazing.

00:15:26Marc:Because there is footage of Michael.

00:15:28Guest:There's plenty of footage of Michael.

00:15:30Guest:Well, anyone who watched SNL in the early days knows him.

00:15:32Guest:Or that fucked up movie he made.

00:15:34Guest:Right.

00:15:34Guest:Mondo Video.

00:15:35Guest:Do you remember that?

00:15:36Guest:Yeah, Mr. Mike's Mondo Video.

00:15:37Guest:That was crazy.

00:15:38Guest:I remember watching that late night on VHS.

00:15:40Guest:Like, what the fuck is this?

00:15:42Guest:Well, that guy was out of his mind in the best way.

00:15:44Marc:Joel McHale played Chevy.

00:15:46Marc:Jackie.

00:15:47Marc:Jackie Tone.

00:15:48Marc:Played Gilda.

00:15:49Marc:Played Radner.

00:15:50Guest:And all those people.

00:15:51Guest:I mean, every one of those characters and those performances, I wanted to... We didn't have room to do much with any one character.

00:15:57Guest:And I would love to see a whole movie with these same cast even of the early stages of SNL.

00:16:02Guest:Yeah, Daly.

00:16:03Marc:John Daly.

00:16:04Marc:Was that John?

00:16:04Marc:Yeah, John Daly playing Bill Murray.

00:16:05Marc:That was good.

00:16:06Marc:He did a great job.

00:16:08Marc:But I was surprised Tom Lennon was really, you know... He really...

00:16:11Marc:He locked in.

00:16:12Marc:And Natasha.

00:16:14Marc:Natasha Leone played Anne Beetz.

00:16:16Marc:Anne Beetz.

00:16:17Marc:Yeah, and Matt Walsh was there.

00:16:18Marc:Yeah, it was the powerhouse.

00:16:20Marc:Sounds like an amazing cast.

00:16:21Marc:Comedy ensemble.

00:16:22Marc:Wow.

00:16:22Marc:Yeah, everybody was represented there.

00:16:25Guest:It was cool.

00:16:25Guest:And Emmy Rossum plays a key role as his girlfriend, Catherine Walker.

00:16:30Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:31Guest:Yeah, I thought that, yeah, and who played the guy, who played Beard?

00:16:37Guest:Henry Beard is Donald Gleeson, who you might not even recognize, but he's like one of the top actors.

00:16:42Guest:Now he's the guy in Star Wars who plays the redheaded colonel, and he's been in a million, he's been in like six or seven movies this year.

00:16:51Marc:Oh, wait, was that him from The Revenant?

00:16:53Guest:yes donald gleason oh he's in everything yeah he's an irish redheaded actor but he's almost unrecognizable in this yeah no he's great that guy's in everything yeah i thought that was a good because i'd seen the um the documentary recently right uh drunk uh stoned yeah yeah yeah that's i don't that where did that go it just seemed to be it was that no people saw it was it was like all documentaries and maybe a tiny release in theaters but it was on netflix and a lot of people saw it i thought it was awesome

00:17:18Marc:I found myself very impressed towards the end of the movie with the transportation of the cocaine in a tennis ball.

00:17:26Marc:For some reason, that detail is like, wow.

00:17:28Guest:That was true.

00:17:29Guest:It was true?

00:17:30Guest:Yeah.

00:17:30Guest:And also, the story we heard about Chevy Chase having this very fancy case where he kept all his cocaine and all the paraphernalia as if it was the bomb.

00:17:41Guest:It was amazing.

00:17:42Marc:So I like how you went through all the stuff that they were sort of, you know, the pitch meetings and then the type of stuff they were satirizing, the enemies, because this was an intimate media landscape where, you know, the magazine like that could have some impact and effect.

00:17:56Guest:Yeah, it's a different time.

00:17:57Guest:That's another thing I tried to communicate to maybe younger audiences is magazines were huge.

00:18:02Guest:And Lampoon was really the voice of counterculture.

00:18:06Guest:There wasn't anything on TV like that until Saturday Night Live came along.

00:18:09Guest:right and it was still like sometimes and you used the photo funnies to document his the the dissolving of his marriage that was clever photo funnies were important the photo funnies were amazing i mean for people who might not know that they would take these little dumb photographs yeah in their office right and then turn them into comic strips yeah not even turn just like literally write little comic balloons on them right make these dumb jokes and they became very popular and often had boobs

00:18:34Marc:Yeah, a lot of boobs.

00:18:36Marc:It was good because if you couldn't get hold of a Playboy as a 13-year-old, you could get those into the house.

00:18:42Marc:You could get National Lampoon in the house.

00:18:44Guest:And that was really the window.

00:18:45Guest:That was why so many people ended up ultimately picking that up.

00:18:49Guest:Because of the boobs.

00:18:50Marc:Yeah.

00:18:51Guest:That's why I watched John Viner's Bazaar on Showtime because it had boobs in 1981.

00:18:55Guest:Oh, did it?

00:18:56Guest:Remember that?

00:18:56Guest:It was the first cable show that I was aware of.

00:18:59Guest:on a premium network and they actually had sketches and every two sketches somebody would take their shirt off for a second and it was incredible.

00:19:07Marc:It was important.

00:19:08Guest:Even if you didn't pay for showtime and it was scrambled, you'd wait for a minute to unscrabble for a second.

00:19:13Marc:So what did you ultimately learn?

00:19:16Marc:What was it in this process about comedy or about yourself or about anything?

00:19:20Marc:Anything?

00:19:21Marc:I mean, how long did it take to shoot that thing?

00:19:23Guest:Well, it took, I don't know, 20-some days to shoot, maybe 30-some days to shoot.

00:19:30Guest:But it was a long, gestating thing because we spent years and years putting it together and thinking about it, and then we actually stopped for six months during the editing so that I could, and a lot of us, could leave and then spend the time writing, prepping, shooting, editing, and releasing the Wet Hot American Summer miniseries, the second one on Netflix 10 years later.

00:19:52Guest:But anyway, the point is we had a big chunk of time away from the movie, which was really helpful for us to understand because a movie like this has so many different parts and modules and ways to attack it.

00:20:05Guest:So we did a lot of creative storytelling thoughts work in the editing and did a couple days reshoots and then finally put it all together.

00:20:16Marc:Could you have ever imagined that that camp movie would be a franchisable business?

00:20:22Guest:Of course not.

00:20:24Guest:I remember when we were shooting it, I was praying we'd have enough money to finish shooting it.

00:20:29Guest:And then I was never sure it would even come out in any form.

00:20:34Marc:And now it's developed this loyal cult and aging following.

00:20:39Marc:I have to assume that a lot of the people it was a defining movie for have got to be almost 50.

00:20:44Guest:yeah they're getting it well yeah we are but i'm happy to say younger people seem to like it too but it's i who knew who knew is that camp experience still the same you think no i mean give or take no not at all it's i think the liability insurance actually changed camps experience a lot and parents have expectations for their kids to have all sorts of computers and stuff oh that's right and then some are going the better vetting of uh counselors

00:21:09Guest:Yeah, there's a lot of, I mean, the looseness, which I remember so fondly in my camp is just would never fly today.

00:21:16Guest:Right?

00:21:16Guest:Yeah, it was loose and ramshackle and like we would just sit around all day.

00:21:20Marc:Sit around all day and all the counselors were fucking each other.

00:21:22Guest:And there was no like sending photos back to parents, like nobody knew what was happening.

00:21:26Marc:It was amazing.

00:21:27Marc:It's a secret place.

00:21:28Marc:You'd get a box from your parents every once in a while.

00:21:30Guest:You'd hang around all day, go make out all night, and then come home at the end of the summer.

00:21:34Guest:And I remember coming back from my summer, and I didn't realize how dirty my mouth had become at all.

00:21:39Guest:And I'd say to my mom, oh, I had a fucking great time.

00:21:41Guest:Fuck mom, fuck this, fuck that.

00:21:43Guest:My parents were like, what the hell?

00:21:44Marc:What happened?

00:21:45Marc:What kind of camp did we send them to?

00:21:46Marc:Now, wait, is there a plan for another eight?

00:21:49Marc:Not at the moment.

00:21:52Guest:We sort of put a little... You've done 16 total?

00:21:54Guest:We did 16 half hours plus the movie.

00:21:57Guest:And the last one was The Ten Years Later, which has a bit of an ending to it, if you watch it sometime.

00:22:05Guest:And I think we have other ideas to now expand in other ways in the WHU, Wet Hot Universe.

00:22:14Guest:Is that what you call it in the office?

00:22:16Guest:That's what I'm starting to call it now, putting that out there.

00:22:19Guest:So we're just exploring that now and we'll see, you know, probably down the line somewhere.

00:22:23Marc:Now, do you keep in touch with all the other state people?

00:22:26Marc:Yeah.

00:22:26Marc:I have to ask you that.

00:22:27Guest:We still work together all the time in different configurations.

00:22:31Marc:I saw Showalter the other night.

00:22:32Marc:Yeah.

00:22:33Marc:I guess I didn't realize or put it together that he directed The Big Sick.

00:22:38Marc:Yeah.

00:22:38Guest:It's an amazing achievement this year.

00:22:40Guest:Yeah.

00:22:40Guest:I saw him at the Critics' Choice.

00:22:43Guest:And he also does that show Search Party.

00:22:45Guest:Yeah.

00:22:45Guest:And we did Wet Hot together.

00:22:46Guest:He had a great, crazy year.

00:22:48Marc:Yeah.

00:22:48Marc:Good.

00:22:49Marc:Good.

00:22:49Marc:Because out of, out of a lot of you, he, he looked like he had a tough year or two.

00:22:54Guest:Well, everyone, it's like one of those horse races where at the, at the fair where the one comes ahead and it's like, we, everybody has their moments that they just want everyone to keep working.

00:23:03Marc:You know what I mean?

00:23:04Marc:There was a period there.

00:23:04Marc:I'm like, Oh, is he just going to be a professor?

00:23:06Marc:Yeah.

00:23:07Marc:You know?

00:23:07Guest:And then it all of a sudden, no, I think it's cool that you, you got all of us on your show.

00:23:11Guest:I think I did.

00:23:12Guest:Did I?

00:23:13Guest:I think you did.

00:23:13Guest:Got them all.

00:23:14Guest:Or maybe not Todd Holabek.

00:23:16Marc:No, he's the outsider though, right?

00:23:18Guest:Yeah, he moved to Korea, but he was the founder.

00:23:19Marc:I know, I know, but it doesn't seem like it's good.

00:23:21Marc:Is it good?

00:23:22Marc:Is everybody okay?

00:23:23Marc:Is he good?

00:23:23Guest:Oh, yeah, he's fine.

00:23:25Guest:He's come back.

00:23:25Guest:We've done some things as the entire group in recent years.

00:23:29Guest:We did a Festival Supreme show and we did some new material.

00:23:32Marc:I think I only had Ben on a...

00:23:34Marc:On a live one.

00:23:35Marc:Did I do a one-on-one with Tom?

00:23:37Marc:Or did I have Tom and Ben?

00:23:38Marc:I think I did do a one-on-one with Tom.

00:23:40Marc:Yes, you did.

00:23:41Marc:And then I had the two of them.

00:23:43Marc:And Joe, yeah.

00:23:44Marc:And Michael, Ian Black, yeah.

00:23:46Marc:And Carrie.

00:23:47Marc:Carrie, yeah.

00:23:47Marc:Kevin.

00:23:48Marc:Kevin, yeah.

00:23:49Marc:I think I did get most of them.

00:23:51Guest:Oh, maybe.

00:23:51Guest:And Marino?

00:23:52Marc:Yes, I did a one-on-one with Marino.

00:23:54Marc:Yeah, and then he was in my TV show, too.

00:23:56Marc:But what have you done?

00:23:56Marc:800 of these?

00:23:57Marc:Almost 900.

00:23:58Marc:Oh.

00:24:00Guest:So you're not gonna... I'm at the place where I don't know.

00:24:03Guest:And aren't you at the place also where someone could say a name and you'll be like, I don't know that name.

00:24:07Guest:And you're like, but he was a guest on your show.

00:24:11Marc:No, I usually know the name, but sometimes I'm not sure if we did one.

00:24:14Marc:Right.

00:24:15Marc:It's a lot of episodes.

00:24:16Marc:Right?

00:24:17Guest:Yeah.

00:24:17Guest:I definitely am at the point, I guess I'm grateful, where I forget whole things I did.

00:24:22Guest:Somebody said, I worked with you on Blah Blah Show and I'm like, I don't even know if I remember what that is.

00:24:28Guest:Yeah.

00:24:28Marc:Oh, my God.

00:24:29Guest:We're getting old.

00:24:30Guest:But it's good.

00:24:33Guest:It means that we're not luxuriating in the past.

00:24:35Guest:Or dead.

00:24:36Marc:Or dead.

00:24:37Marc:Yet.

00:24:38Marc:Yeah.

00:24:39Marc:All right, buddies.

00:24:39Marc:Good talking to you.

00:24:40Marc:Congrats on the movie.

00:24:41Marc:Good luck with it.

00:24:42Marc:Thank you.

00:24:52Marc:That was me and Mr. David Wayne.

00:24:54Marc:The movie is fun and it's educational in parts.

00:24:57Marc:You'll learn.

00:24:58Marc:If you didn't see that documentary too on the National Lampoon, forget what it's called.

00:25:02Marc:You should watch that as a primer.

00:25:04Marc:Is that the word I want?

00:25:05Marc:A primer.

00:25:06Marc:Get your pump primed with some lampoon shit.

00:25:11Marc:Changed my life, that magazine.

00:25:12Marc:Changed my life.

00:25:13Marc:So, oh yeah, I got an email.

00:25:16Marc:Mark, email, Rita Moreno, the worst whooping I ever got.

00:25:22Marc:That's the subject line.

00:25:23Marc:Hey, Mark, thanks for years of enjoyment with the podcast, comedy sets here in Charlotte and the TV shows.

00:25:30Marc:In about 1978, I was five years old and downstairs with my little sister and brother watching The Electric Company.

00:25:35Marc:My memory is of Rita Moreno as the director teaching us about punctuation.

00:25:40Marc:She concluded the lesson by raising her megaphone and shouting, the TV is on fire.

00:25:45Marc:to show us what an exclamation was.

00:25:48Marc:So to show what I'd learned, I walked up into the kitchen and yelled, the TV is on fire at my parents.

00:25:54Marc:My dad took off like a shot down the stairs, and when he came back up, I didn't get a chance to explain at all.

00:26:00Marc:I still remember that as the worst spanking in a childhood that definitely deserved some spankings.

00:26:05Marc:Thanks again, and take care, Doug.

00:26:07Marc:Doug, I got to say, it didn't sound like you deserved that one.

00:26:10Marc:And I think, you know, I'm glad you got this out.

00:26:12Marc:I'm glad you had this memory.

00:26:13Marc:But I think maybe if you're if you're if your father's still alive, you might want to discuss this and explain to him exactly what happened and just maybe get a little bit of that, a little piece of apology.

00:26:24Marc:Just a little bit.

00:26:26Marc:You didn't get a chance.

00:26:27Marc:He jumped the gun.

00:26:28Marc:You were you learned something.

00:26:30Marc:I don't know how you feel about exclamation points now.

00:26:33Marc:Do you avoid them?

00:26:35Marc:Do you avoid yelling because of that?

00:26:39Marc:Do you get a tinge, a twinge, a twitch when you text someone an exclamation point or write an exclamation point?

00:26:47Marc:I don't know, man.

00:26:48Marc:It sounds like I would take this email and read it to your father.

00:26:51Marc:That's what I would do.

00:26:54Marc:So Ezra Furman, look, this kid, I don't know.

00:26:59Marc:I got some records and there was something to him.

00:27:03Marc:That's really how it happened.

00:27:05Marc:I think I got his first two records, and there's a lot of kind of structurally familiar stuff.

00:27:13Marc:It's good rock, definitely rocks, but there's something really amazing about his songwriting and about his passion and about his rawness, man.

00:27:22Marc:It was like Phil Elverum, but different, because that was painfully sad.

00:27:28Marc:But...

00:27:29Marc:And I had him on to talk about his his his album.

00:27:33Marc:But but Ezra just sort of like, you know, there was something some some songs were kind of 50s ish.

00:27:37Marc:And so it just there was a lot of familiar drive to them.

00:27:41Marc:But unique songwriting, unique voice and just the passion and the rawness of it.

00:27:47Marc:Just it got me going.

00:27:48Marc:So I'm like, who is this kid?

00:27:50Marc:Who is this kid from Chicago?

00:27:52Marc:So I asked him to come on the show.

00:27:54Marc:As I said earlier, Ezra's got a new record out called Trans Angelic Exodus.

00:28:00Marc:It's actually out February 9th.

00:28:02Marc:And this is me talking to Ezra Furman.

00:28:10Marc:And now you're going out for the big tour.

00:28:14Marc:You're going to Europe?

00:28:15Guest:Yeah, Europe, USA.

00:28:17Guest:Yeah, the first chunk is just a solid two months away.

00:28:21Marc:Yeah.

00:28:22Guest:Two plus months.

00:28:23Marc:And what are you afraid of?

00:28:24Guest:So I break down.

00:28:26Guest:I break down on tour.

00:28:29Guest:Yeah.

00:28:30Guest:I have fun, but if I'm not sleeping, I go insane right away.

00:28:38Marc:The first week?

00:28:39Guest:It's like two weeks in usually.

00:28:44Marc:Yeah.

00:28:46Guest:Really start to skate along the bottom of my psyche.

00:28:49Marc:How does that manifest itself?

00:28:55Guest:You got your depression.

00:28:56Marc:Yeah.

00:28:57Guest:And you got your anxiety.

00:28:58Guest:Yeah.

00:28:58Guest:And then there's sometimes...

00:29:01Guest:It's between those two things.

00:29:05Guest:Sometimes it's just like lying on the back bench of a van and someone's like, it's time to sound check.

00:29:11Guest:And I'm like, I can't do anything.

00:29:12Guest:And that kind of breaking down.

00:29:17Guest:And then there's like, yeah, just anxiety in different modes.

00:29:21Marc:Like panic about things not going well or dread?

00:29:26Guest:It's a lot of stage fright sometimes, but more often it's not about anything.

00:29:32Guest:I mean, I think I have a...

00:29:34Guest:some kind of panic disorder.

00:29:39Guest:I've had panic attacks that get kind of heavy and serious.

00:29:43Marc:Like gotta breathe in a bag kind of thing?

00:29:46Guest:Is that what people do?

00:29:48Marc:That's old school.

00:29:49Marc:If you can't catch your breath, you know what I mean?

00:29:53Guest:Breathing...

00:29:54Guest:I was remembering to breathe, I guess.

00:29:56Marc:Right, yeah, my chest tightens up.

00:29:59Marc:That's where I go out of my anxiety.

00:30:01Marc:I can feel like I can't get a deep breath.

00:30:03Guest:But I've learned some skills.

00:30:07Marc:Yeah?

00:30:07Guest:I've gotten way better with that.

00:30:09Marc:What do you do?

00:30:10Marc:Do you ground yourself, kinda?

00:30:13Guest:Well, yeah, at some point I learned that...

00:30:21Guest:What gets it going is that you think it's, you feel it coming on and like, this is bad.

00:30:27Guest:Something bad is happening.

00:30:28Guest:Everything's wrong.

00:30:29Guest:I'm losing my mind.

00:30:31Guest:And it's actually being afraid of it that makes it a problem.

00:30:33Guest:Whereas if you just like, here it is, it feels bad.

00:30:37Guest:Yeah.

00:30:37Guest:But it's just a, it's just my brain doing a little thing that goes away.

00:30:41Guest:And like, that really makes a huge difference.

00:30:42Marc:Kind of separate yourself from it as opposed to feed into it.

00:30:46Marc:It's not the truth.

00:30:49Marc:It's just my brain.

00:30:50Guest:Right, yeah.

00:30:51Marc:Yeah.

00:30:52Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:30:53Guest:No, because I used to think like, oh, wait, something's dawning about me about what it is to be alive.

00:31:00Marc:Right, right.

00:31:00Guest:Everything's actually horrible and I have been ignoring it.

00:31:02Guest:That's right.

00:31:03Marc:Your muse.

00:31:04Marc:It's your muse that you're ignoring.

00:31:06Marc:It's it.

00:31:07Marc:The dark, depressing, void muse.

00:31:10Guest:The Void Muse.

00:31:12Guest:Yeah.

00:31:12Guest:That's a good metal band name.

00:31:15Marc:Yeah, let's do it.

00:31:17Marc:I'm fine with it.

00:31:19Marc:So, you have a big following in Europe.

00:31:21Marc:How's it working for you out there?

00:31:24Guest:They, so far, care about us more in England and Europe.

00:31:31Marc:And it's been that way from the beginning.

00:31:34Guest:Well, at the beginning, obviously, nobody cared about us at all.

00:31:38Guest:And...

00:31:40Guest:No, the first weird thing is that we somehow had this... When I was with my other band, my first band was called Ezra Furman and the Harpoons.

00:31:50Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:31:51Marc:Three records worth?

00:31:53Guest:Yeah, and we formed that band in college, when I was in college.

00:31:57Guest:Which college?

00:31:59Guest:Tufts University in Boston.

00:32:01Marc:I know where that is.

00:32:02Marc:I used to live down the street from there.

00:32:03Marc:Oh, really?

00:32:03Marc:Where'd you live?

00:32:04Marc:I lived on Cottage Ave in Somerville, a couple blocks down from Red Bones.

00:32:10Guest:Oh, yeah, of course.

00:32:11Marc:Like Davis Square.

00:32:12Marc:I lived in Davis Square before it was cute.

00:32:16Guest:Now it's really cute, isn't it?

00:32:17Marc:Did you grow up in New England?

00:32:19Guest:No, I grew up in Chicago.

00:32:21Guest:You're a Chicago guy?

00:32:22Guest:Well, Evanston.

00:32:23Guest:I should say I'm from Evanston.

00:32:25Guest:I've been trying to say Evanston because that's where I'm from, the first suburb north of Chicago.

00:32:30Marc:So how'd you grow up?

00:32:32Marc:You talk about being Jewish in the music.

00:32:34Guest:Yes.

00:32:35Marc:How many of you are there, you Jews, you Jewish firmans?

00:32:38Guest:There are, so I'm from a family of six.

00:32:42Guest:I have- Six kids?

00:32:42Guest:No, no, four.

00:32:43Marc:Okay.

00:32:44Guest:Four kids.

00:32:44Marc:Yeah.

00:32:45Guest:Three siblings.

00:32:45Guest:Yeah.

00:32:46Guest:Yeah, my parents are liberal Jews.

00:32:50Guest:And as a child of Holocaust refugees.

00:32:53Marc:Really?

00:32:54Marc:And he grew up in Boston.

00:32:55Marc:Your grandparents.

00:32:56Guest:So yeah, my dad's parents escaped.

00:33:01Guest:They weren't in concentration camps.

00:33:04Marc:Got out under the wire.

00:33:06Guest:Yeah, really.

00:33:07Marc:Did you know him?

00:33:08Guest:I didn't know my grandmother.

00:33:10Guest:I knew my grandfather.

00:33:12Guest:Oh, yeah?

00:33:15Guest:A haunted man.

00:33:16Marc:Yeah.

00:33:17Marc:How old were you?

00:33:19Marc:Also very sweet.

00:33:19Marc:Yeah?

00:33:20Guest:Wonderful grandpa to me.

00:33:22Marc:Could you tell he was haunted or you felt that from him?

00:33:25Guest:Well, I just remember...

00:33:29Guest:you know, kind of learning about what the Holocaust was.

00:33:32Guest:And then, uh, I think maybe some teacher encouraged me like, yeah, you should go ask your grandfather about this story.

00:33:39Guest:And I tried to ask him and he just, uh, I think immediately broke down crying and couldn't speak, you know?

00:33:46Guest:And just like, so, and it was this mysterious thing.

00:33:49Guest:Um, um,

00:33:51Guest:And I never really got the whole story of his childhood.

00:33:55Guest:I think he was like seven years old or something and the Nazis were invading and they left home.

00:34:01Guest:They were like, let's get out of here.

00:34:03Guest:And so to me that's always like...

00:34:07Guest:there was a message of that, of like, they were paranoid enough, you know?

00:34:12Marc:Yeah, they got out ahead of the curve.

00:34:15Guest:Yeah, no, they survived.

00:34:16Guest:I bet all their friends were like, you're overreacting, you know?

00:34:21Guest:So that makes me a paranoid person.

00:34:24Marc:Yeah, I'm paranoid.

00:34:25Guest:It's inherited.

00:34:26Guest:Yeah.

00:34:27Marc:And how old were you when that incident happened?

00:34:30Guest:When I talked to them?

00:34:32Guest:Oh, I don't know.

00:34:33Marc:Like really young?

00:34:34Guest:Maybe I was 10 years old.

00:34:35Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:34:36Marc:So it's a real memory.

00:34:38Guest:Yeah.

00:34:39Marc:Are you the oldest kid?

00:34:40Guest:I'm the second of four.

00:34:42Marc:You have an older what?

00:34:43Guest:Older brother.

00:34:44Marc:Younger brother who was in a band?

00:34:46Guest:Yes, that's right.

00:34:47Guest:Jonah.

00:34:48Guest:Jonah Furman of the band Krill.

00:34:50Marc:Yeah, he's got some fans at Krill.

00:34:52Guest:Yeah, they broke up.

00:34:54Marc:I know.

00:34:54Guest:He put a hard end on that band.

00:34:58Guest:It's over.

00:34:59Guest:And then he went to go do...

00:35:02Guest:get into the labor movement.

00:35:04Guest:Oh, so he's going to... And unions, he worked with... He worked on this Teamsters election of the underdog candidate.

00:35:10Marc:Oh, really?

00:35:11Marc:So is he just... He's a volunteer or is he an administrator in the labor movement?

00:35:16Marc:What does he do?

00:35:17Guest:So now he... He's a lawyer or what?

00:35:19Guest:He's not a lawyer.

00:35:20Guest:He's working on...

00:35:23Guest:He's working for the New Jersey Teachers Union and trying to unionize teachers and grad students.

00:35:32Guest:Yeah, he's doing cool stuff.

00:35:35Guest:It was an impressive transition.

00:35:38Marc:Did the rock dream die for him or did he feel like he wasn't doing enough?

00:35:46Guest:It didn't die.

00:35:47Guest:He was like, we did it.

00:35:49Guest:We did our band and I think he was making a new record and he was like, it's kind of the same as the last one and...

00:35:56Guest:Then they were all just like, I think that we want to do other things with our lives than just go from dive bar to dive bar, rockin' out.

00:36:06Marc:Right.

00:36:06Marc:And it was very different musically.

00:36:09Marc:Obviously, you're different people.

00:36:11Marc:I listen to some of it.

00:36:12Marc:It's a trio, right?

00:36:14Marc:Yeah.

00:36:15Marc:Power trio.

00:36:16Guest:power trio almost like um there's a little pavement influence a little like um minute men you know kind of you know they get noisy yeah yeah uh strange yeah yeah odd time signatures right stuff that really i admire and impresses me because i'm such a i'm just so terminally three chord oriented i love that about you

00:36:42Marc:I think that's why the first record hit me.

00:36:45Marc:It was sort of like, this guy's got to respect for that 145 business.

00:36:48Marc:That's right.

00:36:50Guest:It still works.

00:36:53Marc:It does, but there's so many almost homages to that era of rock and roll that you do.

00:37:01Marc:It reminds me a lot, too, of...

00:37:03Marc:Of the New York scene, the first wave of punk rock.

00:37:07Marc:They sort of... Ramones, the Dolls, the Heads.

00:37:12Marc:A lot of them played with that stuff.

00:37:15Guest:Well, that stuff is kind of where I come from.

00:37:18Guest:It was the first music I loved, loved.

00:37:21Guest:Like who?

00:37:21Guest:I mean, the thing at 12 years old that made me realize that I was like...

00:37:31Guest:more than a little bit into music was Green Day.

00:37:35Guest:And then that's a good game.

00:37:37Guest:First of all, that is the music.

00:37:40Guest:The first album?

00:37:41Guest:Was it Dookie?

00:37:41Guest:It was Dookie that got me.

00:37:43Guest:That's the music for a hyperactive 12-year-old.

00:37:47Guest:It's so perfect.

00:37:49Guest:And then, of course, to read about them, it's this branching path.

00:37:53Guest:They're like, oh, who are the Sex Pistols?

00:37:56Marc:What the clash?

00:37:57Marc:They were the portal.

00:37:59Guest:Yeah.

00:37:59Marc:Into the punk.

00:38:00Guest:Yeah.

00:38:01Marc:Yeah.

00:38:02Guest:And then, so I thought that's what, I thought that was my destiny too, was to be a punk rocker.

00:38:08Guest:And then some other stuff kind of took me by surprise.

00:38:11Marc:Like?

00:38:13Guest:Bob Dylan.

00:38:15Marc:A lot of Dylan.

00:38:15Marc:A lot of Dylan in the early records, the early Furman records.

00:38:19Marc:Yeah.

00:38:20Marc:Yeah.

00:38:20Marc:That's right.

00:38:20Marc:You can definitely hear it.

00:38:21Marc:And there's also some like, there's some sort of Phil Spector-y, Springsteen-y kind of thing too, maybe?

00:38:27Marc:A hint of it?

00:38:29Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:38:29Marc:Did that do anything for you?

00:38:30Guest:i i mean i oh yeah i i got really then then then the yeah like the ronettes hit me and i was like oh wait no this this is the thing like it was just thing after thing like no wait this is it yeah and then like growing i don't know i grew up listening like to mix cities and mixtapes and violent femmes i can't focus is the thing yeah

00:38:53Guest:Yeah, I heard about the Violent Femmes because somebody saw me play it on open mic and they're like, oh man, it's great.

00:39:00Guest:You love the Violent Femmes, don't you?

00:39:01Guest:And I was like, Violent, let me write that down.

00:39:03Marc:Well, you sound a little like him sometimes, like Gano, like Gordon.

00:39:08Guest:Some of us are just blessed with the golden Gano voice.

00:39:12Marc:The nasal, like...

00:39:14Marc:Well, you don't do it all the time, though.

00:39:15Marc:It's almost like when you hit a certain note, you're reminiscent of it.

00:39:21Marc:And there's a rawness to that.

00:39:22Marc:The familiarity of that, of whatever he does, which isn't a lot, it definitely delivers.

00:39:29Marc:I don't listen to many rock guys' words, but I have to listen to you.

00:39:35Marc:And it's nice.

00:39:37Marc:It's good.

00:39:38Marc:It's not a bad thing.

00:39:39Guest:Yeah.

00:39:40Marc:But your voice is very commanding.

00:39:41Guest:That's a Gordon Gano thing and a Johnny Rotten Sex Pistols thing, that enunciation.

00:39:46Guest:Uh-huh.

00:39:47Guest:Because I remember I saw Johnny Rotten on TV, on like a VH1 thing or something, and I was like, the way that he's, everything he's doing is who I am, you know?

00:40:00Guest:That's how I felt at age.

00:40:02Marc:Angry?

00:40:02Marc:You were angry?

00:40:04Guest:Yeah, and just wanting to make sure you knew what the fuck he was saying.

00:40:11Guest:Antichrist.

00:40:12Guest:He really gives you all those consonants.

00:40:17Marc:Sure, yeah.

00:40:18Marc:Annunciation is very important.

00:40:21Marc:Yeah, I believe in it.

00:40:23Guest:I'm a words guy also.

00:40:24Guest:I feel like I'm a writer.

00:40:26Marc:You definitely are.

00:40:28Guest:That's the first thing.

00:40:30Guest:I mean, that's what I thought I would be when I was a kid.

00:40:32Guest:I was into creative writing.

00:40:35Marc:Yeah.

00:40:37Marc:But, no, you definitely write the shit out of songs.

00:40:39Marc:There's no question about it.

00:40:40Marc:And there's, like, certain, like, right at the very beginning, you know, you take on big themes and you move through, you know, very Dylan-esque kind of turns of phrase and long narratives.

00:40:52Marc:It's great.

00:40:53Yeah.

00:40:53Marc:And then you filter in the sort of bebop stuff, and then you filter in a little good old-time Buddy Holly rock.

00:41:01Marc:Sure, sure.

00:41:02Marc:You go through all of it.

00:41:04Guest:I mean, I was diagnosed with ADHD at age 16, so it's musically expressed.

00:41:11Guest:I can't focus.

00:41:12Guest:I sometimes feel like I should have just choose a sound and stay with it as well.

00:41:18Marc:yeah but uh but you do the oddly still you do you do have that i think a mood and a and a kind of worldview hangs over it all but a tone too i mean just you know because of the way you you know you're you got a very urgent uh you know sensibility so you know that kind of you know moves through uh you know all of it no matter what the what style you're playing in

00:41:45Marc:What about your other sibs?

00:41:46Marc:What are they doing?

00:41:50Guest:All boys?

00:41:52Guest:No, my sister, I have a younger sister.

00:41:55Guest:Older brother, younger sister, younger brother.

00:41:57Marc:What's the older brother up to?

00:41:59Guest:He's an artist, so we're all artsy types somehow.

00:42:03Marc:Like a painter or what kind of?

00:42:04Guest:He's a visual artist, a painter, sculptor.

00:42:07Guest:In Chicago?

00:42:08Guest:Well, he lives in New York now.

00:42:10Marc:Yeah.

00:42:11Guest:Actually, Jersey City.

00:42:12Marc:Jersey City.

00:42:14Marc:Home of the former Maxwells.

00:42:16Guest:That's right.

00:42:17Marc:No, no, that's Hoboken.

00:42:18Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:42:19Guest:But yeah, that kind of.

00:42:21Marc:Yeah, I was born in Jersey City.

00:42:23Guest:Oh, really?

00:42:23Marc:Yeah, but that was really the last time I'd spent any real time there.

00:42:27Marc:I hope you enjoyed it.

00:42:28Marc:Yeah, it was nice.

00:42:30Marc:I did all right.

00:42:30Marc:Yeah, my dad was from there.

00:42:32Marc:Jersey.

00:42:33Marc:So what'd your dad do?

00:42:37Guest:Nothing artsy.

00:42:38Guest:A stock options trader at the Chicago Board of Trade.

00:42:42Marc:Yeah?

00:42:43Guest:Yeah.

00:42:46Guest:Still around?

00:42:47Guest:The stuff that numbs my mind.

00:42:48Marc:Yeah.

00:42:49Marc:Is he still around?

00:42:50Guest:He's still around, yes.

00:42:51Marc:Yeah.

00:42:52Marc:You guys get along?

00:42:53Guest:We do.

00:42:54Guest:We do.

00:42:54Guest:I'm one of the lucky ones.

00:42:57Marc:Yeah?

00:42:57Marc:Out of your family or in general?

00:43:00Guest:In general, in this world.

00:43:01Guest:I think our family is like really, it's just one of those close families.

00:43:05Guest:I mean, we used to have, we had all kinds of troubles and conflicts growing up and they really faded away and we just are just tight.

00:43:14Guest:We're buddies.

00:43:15Guest:All of you?

00:43:16Guest:All of us.

00:43:17Guest:What's your sister do?

00:43:19Guest:She's a poet.

00:43:20Guest:I mean, so now she's, I don't know how we all turn into artists like that, because our parents are not, they don't seem particularly artsy, although my mom does do like a poetry group and writes poems in her spare time, kind of.

00:43:39Marc:Uh-huh.

00:43:40Marc:So your sister's a serious poet.

00:43:43Guest:Yeah, well, she got the whole MFA, and yeah, she's a serious poet.

00:43:50Guest:But she's living in Nashville, and she's working at Vanderbilt University, I think.

00:43:57Guest:Uh-huh.

00:43:59Guest:Teaching?

00:44:01Guest:Not teaching.

00:44:02Guest:Doing administrative stuff.

00:44:04Guest:She likes it down there?

00:44:06Guest:She loves Nashville, yeah.

00:44:10Guest:Yeah?

00:44:10Marc:I do, too.

00:44:11Marc:I do, too.

00:44:11Marc:I like the city, yeah.

00:44:13Guest:It can be a tough music town.

00:44:17Marc:Sure.

00:44:17Guest:There's a lot of people who, I don't know, there's tons of musicians there, and then some people, sometimes they get a little snobby about it.

00:44:26Marc:Sure, yeah, it's a real industry town of a certain industry.

00:44:30Marc:I don't hear much country in your catalog.

00:44:34Marc:Yeah, it's... I can hear a lot of the bebop, the Dylan, the old-time rock and roll, some ballady stuff, but there's nothing noticeably twangy.

00:44:48Guest:Am I missing something?

00:44:50Guest:I'm very suburban.

00:44:51Guest:Did I miss one?

00:44:52Guest:Yeah.

00:44:53Guest:Is there a twanger on there?

00:44:54Guest:There's some twangy moments.

00:44:55Guest:I've written some country-esque weepers.

00:44:59Guest:You did?

00:45:01Guest:There's one called Hour of Deepest Need.

00:45:03Guest:Uh-huh.

00:45:04Guest:That's... Well, I guess Dylan had a lot of country elements, too, right?

00:45:08Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:45:08Marc:Hour of deepest need.

00:45:09Guest:I mean, if you're trying to be... I mean, like, I am trying to be a student of the great songwriters.

00:45:15Guest:So, you know, you gotta go to Townes Van Zandt, et cetera, at some point.

00:45:21Marc:Yeah, you can only dip in... Don't go in too long.

00:45:25Yeah.

00:45:25Marc:That's right.

00:45:25Marc:For any one time.

00:45:26Marc:I know.

00:45:27Marc:You come out real sad.

00:45:28Guest:I sense a enveloping darkness there.

00:45:32Marc:Oh my God.

00:45:33Marc:You can feel it right away.

00:45:35Marc:I know.

00:45:36Marc:Like, you know, before you even start singing.

00:45:37Marc:Have you ever seen video of them where it's just sort of like, it's like fucking heartbreaking.

00:45:42Marc:I know.

00:45:43Marc:It's like just drowning in liquor.

00:45:44Guest:Yeah.

00:45:45Guest:It's very upsetting.

00:45:48Marc:What was your first Dylan experience?

00:45:50Guest:So that was a special thing.

00:45:55Guest:Cause that was like, I, I, I wanted to get a guitar and play punk songs.

00:45:59Guest:Right.

00:45:59Guest:You know?

00:46:00Guest:And, uh,

00:46:02Guest:I think my mom was like, we'll get you a guitar, you're gonna get an acoustic guitar, and you're gonna learn some songs that we like, right?

00:46:14Guest:Here's your song book.

00:46:16Guest:So she got me a book of Bob Dylan's songs, chords, and I was like, okay, I will...

00:46:23Guest:I will listen to one of these songs and learn to play it and show my mom and I'll be off the hook.

00:46:28Guest:Yeah.

00:46:29Guest:And then so I went... It was an alphabetically organized thing.

00:46:32Guest:So I went to the first song, Absolutely Sweet Marie.

00:46:35Guest:Found my parents blonde on blonde CD.

00:46:36Guest:I was like, okay, what's this?

00:46:38Guest:How would I do it?

00:46:39Guest:And then...

00:46:40Guest:You know, suddenly it's like, this, this, wait a second, wait a second.

00:46:44Guest:It's all here.

00:46:44Guest:Let me hear that again.

00:46:45Guest:And then, you know, Blonde on Blonde became my thing.

00:46:49Guest:Then my, that's what started like- Blonde on Blonde.

00:46:54Guest:I want to be a great writer.

00:46:56Marc:I want to be like a- Visions of Johanna is like one of my favorite songs ever.

00:46:59Guest:That shit is incredible.

00:47:01Marc:It's insane, man.

00:47:02Marc:It's like everything's in there.

00:47:04Yeah.

00:47:04Marc:I know.

00:47:05Marc:There's so many songs with Dylan's where you're like, it's all a year.

00:47:09Marc:Everything.

00:47:10Marc:All questions are answered.

00:47:12Guest:He's a special guy.

00:47:13Guest:And by that time, he's sort of like, he's built this world where he can do anything.

00:47:17Guest:And on Blonde on Blonde, he's just like, he's moved all the parameters.

00:47:22Guest:Yeah.

00:47:23Guest:He's broken down all the fences, and now he's got like a playground to make this giant double record on.

00:47:28Guest:The songs feel, yeah, they feel like there's everything in there.

00:47:31Marc:So when did you first start writing the songs?

00:47:34Marc:How old were you?

00:47:36Guest:I guess I was 14.

00:47:38Guest:Uh-huh.

00:47:40Guest:Did any of those songs?

00:47:42Guest:It was just taking that Dylan songbook and changing the words and then changing a few chords.

00:47:49Guest:I would take a song and do it exactly, but it'd be a song I never heard, so I didn't know actually how it went.

00:47:54Marc:Right.

00:47:54Guest:Then I'd change all the words, and then I wrote a song.

00:48:00Marc:So he figured out how the way he rhymes, the way it works with him.

00:48:04Marc:I mean, it's a very specific way he turns phrases.

00:48:07Marc:I guess it's a poet's game.

00:48:09Marc:No one writes songs like him, really.

00:48:12Guest:Yeah.

00:48:12Marc:Right?

00:48:13Guest:I mean, I'm amazed that I stuck with it.

00:48:19Marc:With Dylan?

00:48:20Guest:Well, actually with writing songs.

00:48:23Guest:Because I was really, from the get-go, I could not sing well at all.

00:48:29Guest:And my parents tell me now, they were really... Concerned?

00:48:34Guest:They were like, should we take that away from him?

00:48:36Guest:Because we can't allow him to think that he's good at this.

00:48:40Guest:He won't stop making that sound.

00:48:43Guest:They told you that?

00:48:44Guest:They told me much later.

00:48:45Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:48:47Guest:They were like, let him figure it out.

00:48:50Guest:But I was content to be bad at it for a long time.

00:48:52Marc:Well, Dylan, there's a lot of people that would argue he's a horrible singer.

00:48:55Guest:That's crazy.

00:48:56Guest:He's an amazing singer.

00:48:58Marc:Yeah.

00:48:59Guest:He's got control.

00:48:59Guest:He's got an unusual voice, but...

00:49:01Marc:No, I agree.

00:49:03Marc:He knows what he's doing.

00:49:04Marc:And he's played around with it over the years.

00:49:06Marc:So you were writing at 14.

00:49:08Marc:Did any of those songs remain?

00:49:09Marc:Did any of them make their first record from when you were a kid?

00:49:14Guest:I think the first one that I kept and eventually released, I probably wrote when I was 16.

00:49:20Guest:Yeah.

00:49:20Guest:On the first record?

00:49:23Guest:On the first record, like stuff like American Highway.

00:49:26Guest:Uh-huh.

00:49:29Guest:Which, you know, it makes me kind of cringe now.

00:49:32Guest:Does it?

00:49:33Yeah.

00:49:33Guest:A little bit.

00:49:36Guest:Yeah.

00:49:37Guest:Actually, that's not right to say.

00:49:39Guest:It's just you nitpick your old stuff.

00:49:42Marc:Of course.

00:49:43Marc:You could have done something differently.

00:49:45Guest:Right.

00:49:47Guest:I would now, but it was...

00:49:49Marc:But I don't know.

00:49:51Marc:I mean, I listened to a lot of them, and I listened to them recently.

00:49:55Marc:There's a lot of interesting ideas on that first record, like God is a Middle-Aged Woman.

00:50:00Marc:That's a good song.

00:50:01Marc:And My Soul Has Escaped My Body.

00:50:04Marc:That's a good one.

00:50:05Guest:It was very alive.

00:50:07Guest:Yeah.

00:50:08Marc:You're all jacked up.

00:50:09Guest:I'm a little, I cringe also because I didn't care that I was like singing way out of tune or whatever.

00:50:16Guest:Yeah.

00:50:17Guest:I mean, I remember at that point, I didn't care about anything musical.

00:50:20Guest:Like we would do the first take of the song and I'd be like, okay, next song.

00:50:25Guest:And the guy recording, he's like, maybe we should do it a few more times.

00:50:31Guest:And I'm like, what?

00:50:31Guest:We did it already.

00:50:32Guest:It sounded, it was cool.

00:50:34Marc:Yeah, that's good though.

00:50:36Marc:But where'd you record that thing though?

00:50:37Marc:Were you in college or was it after college?

00:50:39Marc:Were you in?

00:50:40Guest:It was during college, yeah.

00:50:41Marc:So you were like what, 19?

00:50:45Guest:When we recorded, I think I had turned 20.

00:50:48Guest:Yeah, but we formed the band when I was 19.

00:50:52Marc:Who were those guys?

00:50:53Marc:Any of those guys play with you anymore?

00:50:55Guest:No, I see them from time to time, and we're good pals.

00:50:58Marc:Are they still in the game?

00:50:59Marc:In the music game?

00:51:00Marc:No.

00:51:01Guest:They really got out, and they're all kind of much happier.

00:51:06Guest:Really?

00:51:07Guest:No, I mean, I feel like they were all like, you're good at this.

00:51:12Guest:You're going to maybe be in this for life.

00:51:15Guest:We're going to go become...

00:51:18Marc:So did you do those?

00:51:19Marc:They became lawyers?

00:51:20Marc:Well, one of them was a lawyer.

00:51:21Marc:So you guys did those first two or three records all when you were in college?

00:51:26Marc:And they were able to sort of like, that was a college thing.

00:51:29Marc:Good luck with everything.

00:51:30Guest:And then we did a few years after college and they were starting to be like...

00:51:36Guest:Is this really my life?

00:51:38Guest:Right.

00:51:40Guest:It's a heavy commitment.

00:51:41Guest:People didn't care about our band.

00:51:43Guest:We didn't make money.

00:51:46Marc:You didn't have a following in Boston?

00:51:48Guest:A little following.

00:51:52Guest:We could maybe sell out the upstairs Middle East.

00:51:57Marc:Oh, upstairs?

00:51:58Guest:Upstairs, a little room at the Middle East.

00:51:59Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:52:02Guest:Or fill it anyway, but yeah.

00:52:06Marc:You weren't launching or anything.

00:52:08Guest:It's like a couple blogs that liked us, and that was enough to keep us going somehow.

00:52:12Marc:So they peel away, and then you do the solo record?

00:52:15Yeah.

00:52:16Marc:You do three records with the harpoons in college.

00:52:19Guest:Where did you record them?

00:52:20Guest:In your house?

00:52:21Guest:Well, we did a demo in a dorm room, and then, no, we got a record deal.

00:52:27Guest:That was the shocking thing.

00:52:29Guest:We formed the band, and we were like, well, we could get summer jobs or take summer school classes, or we could go on tour this summer.

00:52:36Guest:Yeah.

00:52:36Guest:Because I had a friend who became my manager, Mitch Marlowe, a hero of my life, who was like, you could actually...

00:52:46Guest:In college you met that guy?

00:52:48Guest:I actually met him in high school.

00:52:49Guest:For a Chicago guy?

00:52:51Guest:A Chicago guy.

00:52:52Marc:Yeah.

00:52:52Guest:He saw me play at an open mic, which I used to do all the time.

00:52:55Marc:In Chicago?

00:52:57Marc:When you were in high school?

00:52:58Guest:When I was in high school.

00:52:58Guest:Actually, I'd go usually with my dad down the street to a bar, because I couldn't get in alone.

00:53:06Marc:So you're just acoustic guitaring it?

00:53:08Guest:I play acoustic guitar.

00:53:09Guest:And, you know, surprise all the, like, 35-year-old dudes who are at the open mic.

00:53:16Guest:Right.

00:53:16Guest:I'm like, that kid, oh, that was kind of interesting.

00:53:19Guest:Uh-huh.

00:53:20Guest:And so...

00:53:21Guest:Yeah, so I met this guy, Mitch, and he was like, if you ever want to do a real music career with this, I can help.

00:53:29Guest:I'd manage another band.

00:53:30Guest:I could manage you if you want.

00:53:32Marc:Who was his other band?

00:53:34Guest:They were called the Red Walls.

00:53:37Guest:They were a great, very old, kind of 60s sound and garage group from Chicago suburbs.

00:53:44Guest:They were fantastic.

00:53:48Guest:So he took you on.

00:53:49Guest:So he took us on once we had formed a band and he was like, I'll call in some favors, get you on like first of three at various dive bars across the Midwest, you know?

00:53:58Marc:Yeah.

00:53:59Marc:First of three.

00:53:59Marc:I never heard that term.

00:54:00Marc:I like it.

00:54:01Guest:Yeah.

00:54:02Marc:That's a rough spot.

00:54:03Guest:Or yeah, maybe first of five.

00:54:06Guest:Yeah.

00:54:07Guest:And some of the bars made us stand outside because, you know, we weren't old enough to drink.

00:54:13Guest:So you wait till you play, then you play, then you get out.

00:54:16Marc:Yeah, no one's closing us down because of you kids.

00:54:19Guest:Right.

00:54:19Guest:Yeah.

00:54:21Guest:So, yeah, and then the shocking thing was that he got a Chicago indie label's vice president or A&R guy to come to our show in Chicago, and they were like, that was an amazing show.

00:54:38Guest:You're signed.

00:54:38Guest:Let's do it.

00:54:39Marc:With the harpoons.

00:54:40Marc:You guys traveled over the summer.

00:54:42Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:54:43Marc:Where are all those other guys from?

00:54:45Guest:Um... Around the East Coast?

00:54:49Guest:Iowa, Philadelphia.

00:54:49Guest:We met at Tufts.

00:54:50Marc:Sure, right.

00:54:51Marc:They're all different places.

00:54:54Marc:But you got some chops playing around Boston, then you went and did the gig in Chicago, and you get signed.

00:54:59Guest:I wouldn't call them chops.

00:55:01Guest:And we got signed somehow, and that was very shocking to us.

00:55:03Guest:It was like...

00:55:05Guest:The thing with me is my highest ambition was to record something and be on somebody's mixtape that they gave to their friend.

00:55:17Guest:I was like, if that could happen, that would be making it.

00:55:20Marc:I think that's happened.

00:55:21Guest:And that happened very quickly, and I was left with a problem of like, oh, is there other things I want out of this?

00:55:27Guest:Do I... You made some mixtapes.

00:55:32Marc:Some people put you on a mixtape, and you're like, am I done?

00:55:36Marc:Yeah.

00:55:37Mm-hmm.

00:55:37Guest:I mean, it didn't occur to me that this could be my career.

00:55:42Guest:I thought that was like a one million thing, that you somehow become famous and you're in a band.

00:55:46Marc:I was a dumb... So once you asked yourself those questions, how many years did you do the first three records?

00:55:56Marc:Two years?

00:55:57Guest:07, 08, and 010, I guess.

00:56:03Marc:And you were writing all the songs?

00:56:04Guest:Yeah.

00:56:06Marc:How bad could you have the attention deficit disorder if you can kind of hold it together to play music and write songs?

00:56:12Marc:Or is that what focuses you?

00:56:12Guest:I mean, I thought maybe I was going to be like a novelist.

00:56:16Guest:I could only concentrate to write like a three-minute thing.

00:56:19Marc:That takes hours sometimes, doesn't it?

00:56:22Marc:Yeah, that's true.

00:56:23Marc:That's true.

00:56:24Marc:I've got some... Like even like on the solo record, like American Soil, which is a great song.

00:56:28Marc:That must have taken days.

00:56:31Yeah.

00:56:31Guest:That took some time.

00:56:32Guest:By then I started, I started to edit, you know?

00:56:35Guest:Yeah.

00:56:36Guest:I first started, I was like, I would write the song in one sitting.

00:56:38Guest:Uh-huh.

00:56:40Guest:And then just go with it?

00:56:41Guest:And then it's like, it's done.

00:56:43Guest:Yeah.

00:56:43Guest:But I was also, my goal then was to write a song every week.

00:56:47Guest:I felt very disappointed in myself if I didn't write a song a week.

00:56:49Marc:Yeah, so that's a work ethic.

00:56:51Guest:Yeah, which nobody told me that's a lot more than most people write.

00:56:56Marc:But it paid off.

00:56:57Marc:I mean, you put a lot on vinyl.

00:56:59Marc:You laid a lot of tracks down.

00:57:02Marc:Do you know?

00:57:02Marc:Yeah.

00:57:04Guest:I mean, the other thing is I had my foot out the door a lot of the time because in college I thought I was going to do comedy, which I wanted to...

00:57:13Guest:mention to you because it was like the road not taken for me.

00:57:17Marc:Really?

00:57:19Guest:Because I was in a sketch group in college.

00:57:21Marc:Really?

00:57:22Guest:And I would write humor articles and stuff for the newspaper when I was in high school.

00:57:29Guest:Yeah, I really almost did it.

00:57:30Guest:I saw people coming out of that and going into comedy careers.

00:57:36Guest:Did you try stand-up?

00:57:39Guest:I didn't try stand-up.

00:57:41Guest:I was kind of into improv.

00:57:43Guest:I also used to go to Chicago Improv a lot and IO, and that was so fascinating to me.

00:57:49Guest:But you never tried stand-up?

00:57:51Guest:I never tried stand-up.

00:57:54Guest:It's interesting to me why I went away from it.

00:57:59Guest:I think I didn't get along with those comedy guys.

00:58:03Guest:Too rough for you?

00:58:05Guest:It was too...

00:58:06Guest:bro-y and like I was like do we ever get to connect in a serious way with each other or is everything like a bit you know like I just need all these guys who are always on and you have to learn how to decode it yeah yeah and I think I just like they would ultimately it's not my instinct to to poke holes in in pretentious things I think that's the comics

00:58:31Guest:That's what comedy people want to do.

00:58:35Guest:And I just like being serious.

00:58:41Marc:But you do it, though.

00:58:42Marc:I understand what you're saying.

00:58:43Marc:I think that what comedy does as far as...

00:58:47Marc:you know truth to power or confronting uh uh you know big ideas and big topics or hypocrisy or any of the stuff that comedy is fueled against uh you do you do with your your songs maybe you just yeah maybe comedy was too limited for you i'm not sure about that i i

00:59:09Marc:Yeah.

00:59:09Marc:I mean, Dylan is pretty funny, but Dylan can be very serious, and a turn of a phrase that packs a punch doesn't have to be funny.

00:59:20Guest:I mean, that's my favorite.

00:59:23Guest:I like Kyle Kinane because of his turns of phrase.

00:59:26Guest:He writes those sentences.

00:59:28Guest:I like people who play with words.

00:59:31Guest:That's my favorite.

00:59:32Guest:Yeah.

00:59:33Marc:But it doesn't have to be funny.

00:59:37Marc:But I understand that maybe the community was a little too harsh.

00:59:41Guest:Yeah.

00:59:41Marc:Yeah.

00:59:42Guest:They're harsh and I don't know.

00:59:44Guest:Maybe I was also too pretentious for it.

00:59:46Guest:I've got a pretentious streak.

00:59:49Guest:I'm an artist.

00:59:50Marc:Yeah.

00:59:51Guest:I don't know.

00:59:52Marc:Well, it also seems like on some of the records that you were kind of struggling for years with how you fit into the world.

01:00:02Yeah.

01:00:03Guest:Well, aren't we all?

01:00:05Guest:Aren't we all?

01:00:06Marc:Yeah.

01:00:07Marc:Yeah, to some degree.

01:00:09Marc:I mean, more so I think when you're younger.

01:00:11Marc:Yeah.

01:00:15Marc:Because the solo record, what was that for you?

01:00:17Marc:I mean, who were the guys playing on that?

01:00:21Guest:on uh the year of no beat returning some some people it was a lot of me playing a bunch of different parts yeah stuff that i you know never really played lead guitar before that exactly yeah or if a chord basher um

01:00:36Guest:But the thing was that I moved into this house with some new people that I kind of just met, friends of friends.

01:00:42Guest:Where?

01:00:43Guest:In Chicago.

01:00:44Guest:Oh, you went back home?

01:00:45Guest:In Lincoln Square.

01:00:46Guest:Yeah.

01:00:47Guest:After kind of basically two years of straight touring and almost not really having a home a lot of the time.

01:00:55Guest:With the harpoons?

01:00:55Guest:With the harpoons.

01:00:57Guest:And then I moved into this house in Chicago.

01:00:59Guest:And I'm like, let's take some time off from touring.

01:01:02Guest:And at the top of the house, the guy who became my new producer and bandmate, Tim Sandusky, he had built this home studio.

01:01:11Guest:And I kept going up there and looking around and being like, I've got to do something in here.

01:01:16Guest:Yeah.

01:01:16Guest:And I kind of went into this anti-social period of like, I just want to be a megalomaniac about a recording and make all the decisions myself.

01:01:28Guest:No band democracy, no voting on which song is the best.

01:01:31Guest:I'm just going to make a really insular thing.

01:01:34Guest:I liked doing that.

01:01:38Guest:It's also like your college friends, you've got your dynamic and you've known them for five years.

01:01:44Guest:We've been spending 24 hours in a day in a car together and you kind of just have your old dynamic and I was trying to break it, trying to go somewhere different.

01:01:59Marc:Did you think you did it?

01:02:01Guest:Yeah, it was a step in a good direction.

01:02:04Marc:Yeah?

01:02:05Guest:Yeah.

01:02:06Marc:What do you think about those old relationships that kind of held you back?

01:02:11Guest:Well, they didn't...

01:02:13Guest:It was kind of weird just in a holding pattern at that point.

01:02:16Guest:I mean, the other thing about it, I guess, is that I felt pretty closeted.

01:02:21Guest:I felt pretty among a bunch of bros and trying to get along with the bros and kind of tamping down my queerness and my... But they knew or they didn't?

01:02:45Guest:I mean, they knew I was, I told them that I was bisexual.

01:02:50Guest:Yeah.

01:02:51Guest:But like, I was just still saturated in the bro-iness and the, like, I didn't really have many gay friends.

01:03:00Guest:And I, I was just kind of, there was something culturally suffocating me a little bit.

01:03:05Guest:It was me.

01:03:06Guest:It was me.

01:03:06Guest:It was me just like,

01:03:08Marc:refusing to tell anyone where i was at ever and just like in any room i would walk into i just try to either be invisible or make everybody more the most comfortable possible take on their way of speaking uh right right i just sort of like yeah zella get a little bit like kind of like you know just adapt to whatever the flow is and you know you kind of uh it's a boundary thing where you just sort of like become kind of absorbed to protect yourself

01:03:37Guest:Yeah.

01:03:39Marc:Yeah.

01:03:39Guest:And over the years, it never seemed like a big enough deal to have... That's the thing that I think not everybody talks about coming out.

01:03:54Guest:For some people, it's like you tell everybody, it's a big moment, and it's a big break with the past of being closeted.

01:04:01Guest:But for a lot of people, it's just like...

01:04:04Guest:sloppy and you mentioned some stuff to some people but like it's not really clear where you're at and you don't know and they don't know and there's a lot of alienation and like distance from people and kind of tacit dishonesty and it's just habits that I

01:04:23Guest:That I had to break.

01:04:25Marc:Well, you had to make a clear decision for yourself somehow.

01:04:28Marc:Yeah.

01:04:29Guest:Yeah.

01:04:29Marc:I mean, it just sounds... Yeah, I mean, I can only imagine it that, you know, the confusion...

01:04:37Marc:The not wanting to make waves thing or the risk of losing the affection or friendship of people must loom pretty large.

01:04:49Guest:Yeah, and you just don't know if they're going to hurt you.

01:04:52Marc:Or whether they will go away, right?

01:04:55Marc:Yeah.

01:04:57Marc:But these bros must have been okay, these guys you were traveling with.

01:04:59Guest:They were great.

01:05:00Marc:They're not bad bros.

01:05:02Guest:No, not at all.

01:05:05Guest:It was more of a me thing.

01:05:08Guest:I just feel like making that solo record...

01:05:12Guest:All these moves I made in my personal life were mirrored by the musical choices I was making.

01:05:19Guest:Deciding I need to go somewhere and be alone and make a record kind of mostly alone was like taking some time to figure out what's going on with me.

01:05:34Guest:And then...

01:05:37Guest:And then I just started coming out more.

01:05:39Guest:I started dressing feminine in public and wearing dresses or makeup.

01:05:48Guest:And I started on stage first because that seemed easier.

01:05:52Guest:Sure.

01:05:53Guest:It's just a show.

01:05:54Guest:It's still vague.

01:05:56Guest:Right.

01:05:56Guest:I don't know if it's a thing about who I am.

01:05:58Marc:David Johansson and anybody.

01:06:00Marc:It's like makeup and rock and roll is fine.

01:06:02Guest:Yeah.

01:06:03Guest:Sometimes it's a political statement.

01:06:05Guest:You don't have to commit if you're on stage.

01:06:07Guest:Right.

01:06:07Marc:Well, so the year of no returning was the beginning of you kind of, in your mind, coming out publicly in your music in general.

01:06:18Marc:Slowly, yeah, it was sort of a step toward that.

01:06:21Marc:Right, so that's 2012, and certainly by...

01:06:25Marc:perpetual motion people, you're pretty, you know, you're dressing up.

01:06:30Guest:Yeah, sure.

01:06:31Guest:I'm in a dress on the record cover, writing about gender and stuff.

01:06:38Guest:That's a whole weird thing because years and years of like playing dive bars and like being a very obscure band, nobody really cared about us.

01:06:49Guest:And we had this like weird moment where we had a hit song in Austria.

01:06:52Guest:I went to Austria like three times.

01:06:53Guest:Which song?

01:06:54Guest:It was called Take Off Your Sunglasses from... Oh, yeah, that's a good song.

01:06:58Guest:Yeah.

01:06:58Guest:Yeah, and they really adored that.

01:07:01Guest:What was that, Day of the Dark?

01:07:02Guest:No, that was from Inside the Human Body, the second harpoon's album.

01:07:05Guest:Oh, really?

01:07:06Marc:Okay.

01:07:06Guest:So that kind of kept us alive.

01:07:08Guest:But then it's just mostly like...

01:07:11Guest:Playing shows and, like, people not coming a lot of the time.

01:07:14Guest:Yeah.

01:07:15Guest:And even when Day of the Dog came out, like, people didn't care.

01:07:20Guest:Yeah.

01:07:20Guest:But then it was that record.

01:07:22Guest:Somehow it connected.

01:07:23Guest:And the funny thing is I was just about to quit at that point.

01:07:26Guest:Of course.

01:07:28Guest:I actually had quit.

01:07:29Guest:I had decided in my mind that I think it's over.

01:07:33Marc:Uh-huh.

01:07:33Guest:Being a touring musician, I can't take this anymore.

01:07:37Marc:And you've been at it for a few years by then.

01:07:41Guest:Yeah, like seven years.

01:07:44Marc:Yeah.

01:07:45Guest:Seven years of touring.

01:07:46Guest:A ton.

01:07:47Guest:Yeah.

01:07:47Guest:A ton.

01:07:49Guest:I mean, yeah, this kind of thing, when musicians give their personal history and stuff, I would always listen to it and be like, what did you actually do?

01:07:56Guest:What did you do first?

01:07:57Guest:And then what did you do after that?

01:07:59Guest:Because a lot of people are like, I don't know.

01:08:01Guest:Well, this happened and somehow lucked into this.

01:08:04Guest:It just kind of happened.

01:08:06Guest:But for us, it was like, we...

01:08:10Guest:I mean, the lucky thing was we got that first record deal.

01:08:12Guest:We never expected it.

01:08:13Guest:Then we just played shows forever.

01:08:16Guest:Yeah.

01:08:17Guest:For seven years.

01:08:19Guest:Yeah.

01:08:20Guest:And like, yeah.

01:08:22Guest:And then that band broke up.

01:08:24Marc:Then Sandusky comes into your life.

01:08:28Marc:Is that his name?

01:08:28Marc:Tim Sandusky.

01:08:29Marc:Yeah.

01:08:29Marc:In the upstairs studio.

01:08:31Guest:Yeah.

01:08:31Marc:Changes the game.

01:08:32Marc:He plays with you now still?

01:08:34Guest:Yep, he plays the saxophone.

01:08:38Marc:Yeah, there's some stuff on, I don't remember which album, but there's some out there sax work on a couple.

01:08:44Guest:He does wonderful things.

01:08:47Guest:I found out that he played saxophone after I'd known him and recorded a little bit with him.

01:08:52Guest:And I was like, oh my God, we need this.

01:08:55Guest:Saxophone used to be the, before every band had a lead guitar player, in the 50s they'd all have a sax solo, like a ripping sax solo, I love that stuff.

01:09:03Marc:Yeah.

01:09:05Marc:You got a real thing for 50s music.

01:09:08Guest:Yeah.

01:09:09Guest:I've been trying to break that habit a little bit with this new music.

01:09:14Marc:Really?

01:09:15Marc:I don't know.

01:09:16Marc:I just listened to the new single.

01:09:18Marc:It's not quite 50s, but it's definitely a three quarter.

01:09:21Marc:It's a three quarter.

01:09:22Guest:Yeah.

01:09:24Marc:All right.

01:09:25Marc:So, okay.

01:09:25Marc:So you're going to quit and all of a sudden you're big in England.

01:09:28Guest:All of a sudden, yeah.

01:09:30Guest:And I still was gonna quit.

01:09:33Guest:I was like, yeah, okay.

01:09:34Guest:We got some.

01:09:35Marc:Everyone's gonna quit.

01:09:36Guest:Five-star review.

01:09:37Guest:I don't care.

01:09:38Guest:I've been through too much.

01:09:39Guest:It's over.

01:09:40Guest:I'm gonna move on to some other new phase of my life.

01:09:43Guest:Yeah.

01:09:45Guest:And then I felt bad.

01:09:48Guest:I had been dragging my band through the mud, and I was like, well, we should take this trip to Europe.

01:09:53Guest:I should give them the trip to Europe.

01:09:55Guest:I can't cancel that.

01:09:57Marc:This new band, The Boyfriends.

01:09:58Guest:Yeah, so it was gonna be the last tour, and then we're on tour in England, and every show sells out.

01:10:05Guest:And people know the words.

01:10:09Guest:It's just like a whole kind of... Just like the thing that I dreamed of

01:10:14Guest:for the first few years before I gave up on that ever happening.

01:10:20Guest:And we kind of had this night where I stayed up in this hotel room with Tim and we're just like, this actually might not be the time to quit.

01:10:32Guest:This might be getting interesting now.

01:10:33Marc:You're a real genius.

01:10:34Marc:You haven't figured that out.

01:10:37Yeah.

01:10:37Marc:Yeah.

01:10:38Marc:Yeah, we sold out all the shows.

01:10:40Marc:Maybe we're finally on to something.

01:10:42Guest:Yeah.

01:10:44Guest:That's exciting.

01:10:45Guest:The mood all changed.

01:10:46Guest:I mean, it still was a ton of like, I don't know, somehow the way we do it, it's always like, we just work really fucking hard.

01:10:55Marc:Yeah, well, I mean, it's a tough gig, man.

01:10:57Guest:We scheduled maybe too many shows, you know, and just like pound the pavement.

01:11:03Marc:All right, so now...

01:11:04Marc:What happens?

01:11:05Marc:You're about to go on the road.

01:11:06Marc:You're about to drop a new record.

01:11:08Marc:Yeah.

01:11:10Marc:And this is actually... It's going to be your... Seventh?

01:11:14Marc:Seventh.

01:11:15Marc:Full-length record.

01:11:16Marc:Seventh.

01:11:17Guest:Yeah.

01:11:18Marc:In one form.

01:11:18Guest:And that's not counting, like, the little other releases.

01:11:21Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:11:22Guest:EPs and V-side collections and stuff.

01:11:24Guest:But...

01:11:25Guest:It'll be the seventh.

01:11:27Guest:Yeah.

01:11:29Guest:I know.

01:11:29Guest:I think it's like being a Beatles fan.

01:11:32Guest:You're like, they did two records a year, man.

01:11:34Guest:We got to keep putting them out.

01:11:36Guest:I just write a lot.

01:11:37Marc:I love... You still do the one song a week thing?

01:11:41Guest:No, I don't.

01:11:43Guest:I started to realize that that was making me write a ton of bad songs.

01:11:46Guest:And then I'd have to sort through them and be like, I think there was a good one in here somewhere.

01:11:51Guest:So I started trying to take more time on each one and really treat them like a writer writing a piece of literature.

01:12:02Marc:Which one did I just listen to?

01:12:03Marc:What's on your website, the new song?

01:12:06Guest:Probably Love You So Bad.

01:12:08Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:12:09Marc:That's a good song.

01:12:09Guest:With the cellos.

01:12:10Guest:Just cellos and drums.

01:12:12Guest:That one.

01:12:12Marc:Yeah, it's good.

01:12:14Marc:Like, it's a good story.

01:12:15Marc:It's relatable to everybody.

01:12:19Marc:Thank you.

01:12:21Marc:It's a little sad, but it's good.

01:12:23Guest:I know.

01:12:23Guest:I'm working on storytelling.

01:12:27Marc:Yeah?

01:12:27Marc:Are you?

01:12:28Marc:Consciously?

01:12:30Guest:Yeah, I mean, the new record is very characters in a setting and it's not really about me and my personal life so much anymore.

01:12:42Marc:Oh yeah?

01:12:43Marc:So is it a concept record?

01:12:46Guest:I have this hesitation.

01:12:48Guest:It is.

01:12:49Guest:I would say pretty much it is.

01:12:51Guest:I've been hesitant to say concept record about it because that makes you think of... I don't know.

01:12:56Guest:It ain't a rock opera.

01:13:00Guest:It doesn't really have a story, an arc of a story, but it's a situation.

01:13:04Guest:It's called Transangelic... Transangelic Exodus.

01:13:09Marc:Where'd that title come from?

01:13:11Guest:Well...

01:13:13Guest:A few places, but it's just that this song, which is the first song on the record called Suck the Blood from My Wound, just kind of dropped into my head.

01:13:23Guest:I found this song in my brain, which for some reason was about an angel escaping from a hospital and me and the angel driving in a car trying to escape a hostile government, an authoritarian takeover.

01:13:41Guest:Uh-huh.

01:13:42Guest:Which, like, the undertones here are not that hard to understand, you know, of just paranoia about a government gone bad.

01:13:54Guest:Yeah.

01:13:55Guest:And what they might do to vulnerable people.

01:13:57Guest:Yeah.

01:13:58Guest:So then I kind of just, like, had written this song.

01:14:00Guest:I guess I have to deal with this.

01:14:02Guest:What is this idea that I've uncovered?

01:14:07Right.

01:14:07Guest:And so most of the record is set in a car escaping hostile authorities, me and my damaged angel.

01:14:16Marc:You're bloodied in songs throughout your career.

01:14:21Guest:Is that right?

01:14:22Marc:A little bit.

01:14:23Guest:There's a lot of blood and guts imagery, huh?

01:14:25Marc:Yeah, fighting.

01:14:27Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:14:28Guest:Well, I took it from Lucinda Williams, I think, mostly.

01:14:31Guest:I don't know if you're into Lucinda Williams at all.

01:14:34Marc:I love her.

01:14:34Marc:I talked to her in here.

01:14:35Marc:I love her.

01:14:35Marc:Oh, you did?

01:14:36Guest:Oh, I should hear that.

01:14:38Marc:Yeah, she's great.

01:14:40Guest:Yeah, she can really write like a visceral image, you know?

01:14:45Marc:Yeah, it's good.

01:14:48Marc:So how does it end up with you and the beat-up angel?

01:14:52Guest:You know, I think we're, I think it does, I think that's part of why it's not a rock opera, it's not a story, it's, it's a perpetual situation of perpetual paranoia and flight from, from hostile authority.

01:15:12Marc:Yeah.

01:15:13Marc:You feel that in your day-to-day life?

01:15:18Guest:Yeah, kind of.

01:15:20Guest:I mean, I think there's a deep paranoia and siege mentality thing that's just in me from just, I don't know, growing up closeted queer.

01:15:33Guest:Yeah.

01:15:35Guest:and now current events are certainly aggravating that tendency.

01:15:42Marc:Sure.

01:15:43Marc:And you're living in Berkeley though now, right?

01:15:46Guest:I'm living in Berkeley, California.

01:15:47Marc:You have a good community up there?

01:15:49Marc:You have friends?

01:15:50Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:15:53Marc:It's definitely a city of fighters.

01:15:55Guest:I'm in love with somebody who is a grad student, a PhD candidate at UC Berkeley in political theory.

01:16:07Guest:Oh, really?

01:16:08Guest:So I'm hanging out with a lot of people talking about stuff like authoritarianism.

01:16:16Marc:So that's playing on you.

01:16:17Guest:a little bit yeah uh yeah my partner wanted to wanted me to mention that they're a big fan oh good that's very nice of your show and actually i am too well thank you since back in like 2010 or something i've been listening to this oh yeah yeah uh yeah i'm on the pretty regular not every episode sure a bunch of them well thank you so how long you've been with this uh person

01:16:42Guest:A while.

01:16:42Marc:Yeah?

01:16:43Guest:A while.

01:16:43Guest:We met at Tufts.

01:16:46Guest:Oh, really?

01:16:47Guest:Yeah, we haven't been together that whole time.

01:16:49Guest:There was breakups and moveaways, and we ended up together.

01:16:53Marc:That's a nice story.

01:16:55Marc:That's a good story.

01:16:57Marc:That's a long time, man.

01:16:59Guest:yeah it's it's so is he like the first and now he's the you know he comes back around uh kind of yeah yeah yeah you gotta you you gotta maybe not maybe not many people honor that you've come back sometimes you gotta break up to understand what it's like to break up and then be like oh we shouldn't have done that

01:17:22Guest:Oh, wow.

01:17:22Marc:That was a periodic move.

01:17:25Marc:That's great.

01:17:26Marc:Now, the tour, what are you gonna do to take care of yourself?

01:17:31Guest:That's the question of the hour.

01:17:36Marc:Are you druggie?

01:17:36Marc:Do you drink too much?

01:17:38Marc:What do you do?

01:17:39Guest:I'm very mild on all that stuff.

01:17:42Marc:Yeah, that's good.

01:17:42Guest:I mean, I can feel myself when I start to get compulsive with drinking a little bit.

01:17:48Guest:I can see that's like, be careful.

01:17:51Guest:But I think I was saved from being an addict or anything by being just a very fearful person.

01:17:59Guest:And I'm an alarmist.

01:18:01Guest:If I have a bunch of emails to answer, I'm like, I don't want to answer these emails.

01:18:06Guest:I'm going to drink three beers.

01:18:09Guest:Then I'm like, I'm out of control.

01:18:10Guest:I got to get what's going on with me.

01:18:13Guest:I'm an alcoholic.

01:18:14Guest:That's all it takes, huh?

01:18:15Guest:I just get very afraid of it very quickly.

01:18:17Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:18:18Marc:Well, that's good.

01:18:18Marc:It's the saving grace.

01:18:19Marc:Fear is good in that situation.

01:18:22Marc:Yeah.

01:18:23Marc:But do you have a plan to somehow make this a good experience?

01:18:27Guest:I think I gotta remember to, if I need to just lie on a hotel bed for an hour instead of go and see my friend who's in town, maybe I'll just lie on the bed for an hour and I'll see them another time.

01:18:44Marc:And have you been to all the cities you're going to?

01:18:47Marc:Before?

01:18:48Guest:I think so.

01:18:49Guest:Actually, we're going to New Orleans, which we never played in New Orleans, which is surprising to me.

01:18:53Marc:That's a trippy place.

01:18:54Marc:Have you been there?

01:18:55Marc:I've never been there, actually.

01:18:56Marc:It's got its own vibe entirely.

01:18:59Marc:I've been... Like you feel it.

01:19:02Marc:I've heard things.

01:19:04Marc:You get into the city, you're like, there's no place like this place.

01:19:07Guest:Yeah, that's what I hear.

01:19:08Guest:And also, it's particularly musically rich.

01:19:15Guest:Good food.

01:19:17Guest:Yeah, I've been to 48 American states, and one of the ones I haven't been to is Louisiana.

01:19:22Marc:Oddly.

01:19:22Marc:So you've got... So I'll be at 49 once I go to New Orleans.

01:19:26Guest:The other one's Alaska.

01:19:27Guest:I'm not sure how I'll get up there.

01:19:29Marc:You're not that far in Berkeley.

01:19:32Marc:Book a gig in Anchorage.

01:19:33Marc:Just to make it the clean 50.

01:19:35Marc:Yeah, why not?

01:19:38Marc:I feel like I need to listen to some of your brother's stuff.

01:19:42Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:19:43Guest:It's magical.

01:19:45Guest:Some of it's so intense.

01:19:48Guest:He's also a writer.

01:19:51Marc:He's like a... Did you guys play together when you were kids?

01:19:56Guest:No, not really ever.

01:19:59Guest:For some reason, I was like, my parents would be like, hey, our friends are over for dinner.

01:20:03Guest:Come play us music, you know?

01:20:06Guest:And I was game.

01:20:07Guest:And Jonah was like, I'm never going to do that.

01:20:13Guest:Like, you know, I don't know.

01:20:15Guest:Yeah, I think you can tell in your styles that that was... Yeah, he's more insular or something.

01:20:20Guest:I have like a lot of traditionalist instincts.

01:20:24Marc:Yeah, you got some pop music instincts.

01:20:26Guest:Yeah.

01:20:27Guest:This thing is a lot more there.

01:20:30Guest:Three chords, you could do that for your whole life.

01:20:32Marc:Oh, you're preaching to the choir, buddy.

01:20:34Marc:Seriously.

01:20:35Marc:I fucking love that shit.

01:20:38Marc:I remember listening to your record.

01:20:42Marc:I'm like, what is this guy?

01:20:43Marc:He's just nailing it.

01:20:47Marc:It was great talking to you.

01:20:48Marc:I'm happy to meet you.

01:20:48Marc:Great talking to you, Mark.

01:20:49Marc:Have a good tour.

01:20:50Guest:Thanks.

01:20:56Marc:Okay.

01:20:58Marc:Go listen to him.

01:20:59Marc:Go listen to Ezra.

01:21:00Marc:It's good.

01:21:01Marc:It's good.

01:21:03Marc:You'll like it.

01:21:04Marc:And I'm not hard selling.

01:21:06Marc:I'm just saying I like it.

01:21:07Marc:So that was Ezra Furman, the new album, Trans Angelic Exodus, comes out February 9th.

01:21:14Guest:Oh, man.

01:21:15Marc:Am I playing guitar?

01:21:17Marc:Am I?

01:21:17Marc:Am I playing guitar?

01:21:21Guest:.

01:21:27Guest:.

01:21:28Guest:.

01:21:53Marc:Boomer lives.

Episode 886 - ​Ezra Furman / David Wain

Episode 886 - Ezra Furman / David Wain