Episode 884 - Don Was
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fucksters this is mark maron uh this is wtf this is my podcast welcome to it i just realized sometimes when i do that what the fuckers what the fuck you know like i mean i've been doing that a long time and uh
Marc:There are moments where I'm like, wow, I just annoyed myself.
Marc:But I keep doing it because it's a signature thing.
Marc:I mean, if I started taking away all the little things that I do on a regular basis, what am I left with?
Marc:If I take away all the ticks and habits and recurring bits of business that I've been doing most of my life or at least my life, public life on this show, what have we got?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Those things protect all of us from what's inside me.
Marc:You got to have your tics and habits and idiosyncrasies and repetitions just so you don't fall apart.
Marc:So today on the show, music producer and musician Don Was.
Marc:Don Was, you would know.
Marc:You would see Don Was.
Marc:You know what Don Was is.
Marc:You know who he is.
Marc:Was not was, was his band.
Marc:But he's also a prolific producer, and now he's the president of Blue Note Records and doing some cool things over there.
Marc:But this was a good conversation because he's worked with the Stones exclusively a lot.
Marc:I don't know, not exclusively.
Marc:Why do I even use that word?
Marc:But he produced the last one, Blue and Lonesome.
Marc:And he's worked with the Stones before.
Marc:And I'm a Stones person.
Marc:So I'm just giving you Stones people a head up that there's some good chat about producing the Rolling Stones and also about working with the Stones.
Marc:But there's also some good talk about remastering and stuff.
Marc:The music talk.
Marc:But I was engaged and I like it.
Marc:And I like seeing him in my garage because he's always one of those guys, a bass player generally.
Marc:And you kind of see him in backing bands here and there over the years.
Marc:He's got these dreads and this little beard and he usually wears sunglasses and a hat.
Marc:And you're like, there's that guy.
Marc:And I talked to that guy.
Marc:And he's done a lot of stuff.
Marc:And it was kind of a great talk.
Marc:So that's happening.
Marc:That's happening today momentarily.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I do want to tell you about my experience at the SAG Awards, if you didn't.
Marc:Well, I mean, you can only watch so much.
Marc:But first, out of the gate here, some guy called me out here in an email.
Marc:Subject line, Radio Shack?
Marc:Question mark, question mark, question mark, question mark.
Marc:Hi, Mark.
Marc:Going to Radio Shack to acquire the parts to fix your cable will require a time machine.
Marc:I could tell you how to build said time machine, but it will require a parts list from Radio Shack.
Marc:Good luck.
Marc:Love the show.
Marc:I hope the transition to your new home goes smoothly from here on out.
Marc:Sincerely, Bowser.
Marc:Yeah, I did say I was going to Radio Shack on the last show.
Marc:And not only did I say I was going to go, I went to where the Radio Shack was, knowing in my brain that all the Radio Shacks are gone, but seemingly some part of me unwilling to accept.
Marc:That all Radio Shacks are gone.
Marc:You didn't go to Radio Shack much.
Marc:And a lot of times what you bought there was relatively disposable because you buy too many of them because you're trying to fix something yourself or whatever.
Marc:But but it was a sort of a constant.
Marc:But the Radio Shack is gone.
Marc:And if you want to get that stuff day of, you know, it's hard.
Marc:You can get a day after on Amazon, I guess.
Marc:I guess everything happens quicker.
Marc:But what happened to the journey?
Marc:What happened to the journey, folks?
Marc:That's what we're missing now is that, you know, I got to get a thing.
Marc:I got to see what store has it.
Marc:Where is that place?
Marc:Are they open?
Marc:Let's drive over there.
Marc:Maybe we'll get something to eat on the way.
Marc:Oh, shit, it's not here.
Marc:But look, there's this store.
Marc:I wonder what's in this place.
Marc:Remember that?
Marc:Remember getting out in the world and doing things?
Marc:Remember where, you know, a sort of a shopping rabbit hole could actually require a car?
Marc:You just go and you're like, God, we passed a place.
Marc:It looks like it might have that.
Marc:Let's go there.
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:I didn't even know this was here.
Marc:Did you know this whole thing?
Marc:What happened to that?
Marc:Gone.
Marc:Human engagement with the outside world.
Marc:Gone.
Marc:Sad.
Marc:I'm not grieving for Radio Shack.
Marc:And then there was that brief time where they tried to call it the hut.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:Radio hut?
Marc:No, the shack.
Marc:Where are you going?
Marc:Going to the shack.
Marc:Pick up a plug.
Marc:They tried to hipsterize Radio Shack to save it.
Marc:Let's go down to the shack.
Marc:Get some batteries.
Marc:Let's hang out at the shack.
Marc:I'm going to get some blank cassette tapes at the shack.
Marc:See?
Marc:Again, I used to go down there, get blank cassette tapes.
Marc:They had the Memorex brand, the Ultras, and the Hightech, and then they had the Radio Shack brand.
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:Back in the day, he used to go out.
Marc:I did do some driving to do a thing today for Laurie Metcalf.
Marc:There's a tease for you.
Marc:What's that story about?
Marc:Maybe I'll tell you.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So what was I saying?
Marc:Oh, the SAG Awards.
Marc:were very exciting.
Marc:They were very fun.
Marc:As some of you know, I lost.
Marc:I was not expecting to win.
Marc:I was up against William Macy, who won.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:And there were other people too, but I wasn't expecting to win.
Marc:I was actually excited to be nominated and to be at this thing.
Marc:So many of the people...
Marc:have been on this show, but it's all actors, and it's almost like a community event.
Marc:These awards were decided by the community of actors.
Marc:They were voted on by actors, and it's an actors event.
Marc:There's a lot of celebrities there, sure, but it doesn't feel like a...
Marc:like a business event or a producer's event or an agent's event or a critic's event.
Marc:It's just a room full of actors and people who are related and connected to these actors.
Marc:And it was very exciting because I like looking at celebrities.
Marc:Everyone knows that.
Marc:But I got to be honest with you, and it's not...
Marc:I'm not tooting my own horn.
Marc:I was happy to be there with a purpose.
Marc:I felt part of something.
Marc:Glow was nominated for ensemble and stunt work, and I was nominated for Best Male Actor in a Comedy, and Allison was nominated for Best Female Actor in a Comedy.
Marc:So it was very exciting.
Marc:We were all at the table, and right behind me, Susan Sarandon was sitting next to Geena Davis.
Marc:I saw Laurie Metcalf was over at the Lady Bird table, and so was Greta Gerwig and Tracy Letts, who I interviewed, who will be on the show soon.
Marc:who I love, Tracy Letts.
Marc:It's a funny story about Tracy Letts.
Marc:I don't know if I'll tell it now or when his episode is on, but everyone was there.
Marc:Everyone was there.
Marc:And, you know, I said hi to Susan Sarandon.
Marc:She's been on the show.
Marc:We had a little chat, said hi to Greta Gerwig.
Marc:Like, I felt okay saying hi to these people.
Marc:I didn't feel okay for some reason at the Critics' Choice because I thought, well, who am I?
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Even though I was nominated, I don't know.
Marc:It's not humility.
Marc:It's just insecurity.
Marc:But for some reason in this room...
Marc:I was very excited to say hi to everybody.
Marc:And I didn't.
Marc:I met some people.
Marc:I saw some old friends.
Marc:I saw Matt Walsh over there.
Marc:Veep won for Best Ensemble.
Marc:Beat us.
Marc:But I was happy to see Matt.
Marc:Hadn't seen him in a while.
Marc:I saw Sam Rockwell.
Marc:He's been on the show.
Marc:He's winning everything.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:He was sitting at the next table over with the three billboards table.
Marc:He gave me a big hug.
Marc:I gave him a big hug, congratulated him.
Marc:The first joke or the second joke that Kristen Bell made was about GLOW and about my podcast, and it got a big laugh.
Marc:Again, I'm not tooting my own horn.
Marc:I feel like I was there because I belonged, not because I was a guy that just interviewed people.
Marc:It was exciting.
Marc:It was fun.
Marc:I liked seeing everybody and I liked that they knew me.
Marc:And I liked that not only did they know me because they'd been in my garage, but they knew me because, you know, I was nominated for a thing.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:I don't think that, I don't, whatever.
Marc:I wore my suit.
Marc:I went with Sarah the painter and I felt part of part of man part of a community.
Marc:I'm a part of the community of comics, which I've always been last night.
Marc:I was behind the comedy store hanging out with Bill Burr smoking a cigar with some old pals from the Boston days.
Marc:Jackie Flynn and Al Ducharme just hanging out telling stories and
Marc:holding a little court with Burr and the cigars and the Boston guys.
Marc:The comedy, the rogues and gypsies of the comedy world are really my family, but it was nice to be in the acting world.
Marc:Well, here's what happens.
Marc:Outside of having a joke made about me, which I found very flattering.
Marc:And chatting with different people.
Marc:Jason Bateman, I ran into him.
Marc:He was very nice.
Marc:And I ran into Jordan Peele, congratulated him.
Marc:But I will tell you this story.
Marc:So we're all hanging out at my table, the glow table.
Marc:There's two tables, a table and a half of glow.
Marc:And people have to kind of move through the room.
Marc:There's thin little in-between tables.
Marc:There's not a lot of room.
Marc:And then all of a sudden, I'm standing up and I see Francis McDormand.
Marc:And a few people moving towards me.
Marc:They need to get by me because I'm at the head of the table.
Marc:They need to walk behind me and I'm standing up.
Marc:It's on a break or it's before the show starts and she's coming right at me.
Marc:And I'm a big fan and I respect her a great deal.
Marc:And I've always wanted to have her on the show.
Marc:I was just going to step out of her way.
Marc:And then I thought, like, just introduce yourself, man.
Marc:so she's walking right towards me to get around me with all these people and i said hi francis i'm and she goes i know who you are mark maron i know who you are and i'm like oh okay she goes you were great on glow you were great i thought it was a i didn't i don't usually watch things but i started watching it and i watched it and you were great i mean everyone knows that guy everyone's known one of those guys so like on some level
Marc:She liked Glow.
Marc:She thought I was great in it as an actor.
Marc:So I won.
Marc:I won at the SAG Awards.
Marc:I won.
Marc:Frances McDormand made me a winner.
Marc:I'd love to have her on the show.
Marc:And Willem Dafoe actually chatted with me this time.
Marc:Remember I said at the Critics' Choice, I thought maybe he didn't.
Marc:I didn't think he registered.
Marc:But we had a nice chat on the red carpet waiting to get pictures taken.
Marc:I'm still a little bit of a who's this guy, but that's all right.
Marc:You look, I, I'm completely, I'm, I'm, I'm way ahead.
Marc:It's all gravy.
Marc:I didn't anticipate any of this.
Marc:And, and, uh, it was a, it was a good time.
Marc:It was a really good time.
Marc:I'll tell you.
Marc:Oh, I want to tell you this.
Marc:So Robert De Niro's there, right?
Marc:After the SAG Awards, you go basically next door to a bigger to another room where they have the party and you kind of move in through this one door.
Marc:And then there's separate areas.
Marc:There's like booths in this food and whatever.
Marc:So I walk in with Sarah and like Robert De Niro is just sitting on a couch there, you know, talking to another guy.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, my God, it's Robert De Niro.
Marc:And Sarah's like, you should go introduce yourself.
Marc:I'm like, no, what am I going to?
Marc:I'm not going to what?
Marc:I'm going to interrupt Robert De Niro to do what?
Marc:What am I really?
Marc:What am I going to?
Marc:No, I'm not doing that.
Marc:I'm not going to introduce myself to Robert De Niro or tell him he's whatever.
Marc:I just it didn't feel right.
Marc:And then I walk about another 10 feet.
Marc:I'm like, all right, okay, maybe I should go introduce myself to Robert De Niro.
Marc:I don't know what I'm going to say, but maybe I'll go try.
Marc:So I'm walking back to where Robert De Niro, he's sitting down at a little couch.
Marc:It's a circle, it's around a pillar kind of thing.
Marc:And there's a lot of people around, but everyone's moving, but he's just sort of there talking to another guy.
Marc:And I'm walking towards Robert De Niro.
Marc:And then I see a guy, maybe like five to 10 feet away, just standing there by himself.
Marc:uh a dude just standing there just you know not talking to anybody big guy and he looks at me and i look at him and he and he you know he no he not acknowledges me so i walk over and he introduces himself as this guy chris sullivan from uh this is us he said he was a fan of my work or whatever and he's just standing there and and then i realized i'm like are you are you waiting to
Marc:try to say hi to robert de niro he's like yeah kind of and i'm like oh i didn't realize there was a line he's like how what are you gonna do he's like well i'm just gonna wait for my window you know there's a wait for my and i'm like i was gonna do that too but i think i'm gonna keep moving because i don't really think we should it was just such an awkward thing like you go ahead and do it i'll do it another time maybe another event i don't you don't you don't want to be a line of people trying to act nonchalant you know
Marc:Six feet away from where Robert De Niro is talking to a friend of his.
Marc:Just like, you know, I'm growing massive people.
Marc:Me, some other guy, another guy steps up.
Marc:It's like, yeah, we're kind of, we're kind of waiting.
Marc:Not even talking to each other.
Marc:Just kind of acting like nothing's going on.
Marc:So needless to say, I did not meet Robert De Niro.
Marc:I hope Chris did.
Marc:So maybe, maybe he'll let me know.
Marc:So anyways, okay, let's get on with it.
Marc:Remind me to tell the Tracy Letts story.
Marc:How are you going to remind me?
Marc:You're the listener.
Marc:I'll tell it when he's on because it was kind of funny, but it ties into something he said at the end of his conversation with me.
Marc:Anyways, Laurie Metcalf left her hoodie here, her Steppenwolf hoodie.
Marc:So I had to go out into the world.
Marc:Because she needed it.
Marc:She went to New York to do a play and they were going to do a photo shoot and she needed it to do.
Marc:They wanted her to wear a thing.
Marc:And it's her favorite hoodie.
Marc:So I went down the post office and I overnighted Laurie Metcalf her hoodie.
Marc:I got out in the world.
Marc:You people think that I'm a mid-level celebrity.
Marc:I don't have people running around doing things like that.
Marc:And I like to do it.
Marc:I'm just supportive of getting out in the world to do mundane errands, you know, buy things, whatever.
Marc:Oh, you're probably going like, why didn't you use the stamps?
Marc:Why didn't you use the stamps for the overnight?
Marc:Don't call me out on stamps.com.
Marc:It needs to be there tomorrow.
Marc:So Lori could have her hoodie.
Marc:Anyway, Don was.
Marc:I enjoy this conversation.
Marc:It's a music conversation.
Marc:As I said, you may know him from the guy with the hat and the dreadlocks and the beard and the sunglasses.
Marc:He was and was not was.
Marc:He's a big music producer.
Marc:He's a bass player.
Marc:And now he's the president of Blue Note Records.
Marc:and they've just launched this Blue Note Review, Volume 1, Peace, Love, and Fishing.
Marc:It's a box set subscription series, and it's limited to a production of 1,500 sets.
Marc:You can get it at bluenotereview.com.
Marc:So Volume 1 just came out.
Marc:I think they're going to come out twice a year.
Marc:I got it.
Marc:It's a beautiful box.
Marc:It's got a reissue of a Blue Note record.
Marc:It's got a new record of live performances.
Marc:This one had different ones.
Marc:It's got some other stuff in it, some pictures.
Marc:scarf the yeah it's anyway we'll talk about it this is me and Don was
Marc:so you're you're you're don was you're the guy i'm a guy yeah but you're the guy i've been seeing like there in the background for my whole life who's that guy on bass what's that guy doing the zealot of rock and roll here's that guy there's that guy again and then people mention you oh yeah don was on that one oh that guy you're like always there your presence
Guest:where'd you where'd you grow up i'm from detroit really yeah what's the real name faginson faginson yeah it's too close to donald fagan what kind of name is faginson it's uh it's an ellis island name sure yeah like they all are but what's the background uh my grandfather came over from russia family uh family legacy yeah which i don't think is true by the way yeah legacy is that he said they said what's your name he said vergusson
Guest:Ferguson?
Guest:Yiddish for forgotten.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Because he was pretty sure the czar was going to come over here and take him back.
Guest:So he was just saying like, yeah, just let it be nothing.
Marc:But I don't think that's true.
Marc:Actually, the name exists in Russia.
Marc:I come from Russian Jews.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:From where?
Marc:You know, I just looked it up.
Marc:Now I can't remember.
Marc:But yeah, my father's side's Russian.
Marc:My grandmother's Polish.
Marc:Polish and Russian, mostly.
Marc:We're on it.
Marc:We're probably cousins.
Marc:That's one of the brand.
Marc:That's a brand of Jew.
Marc:That comes over.
Marc:The American Jew, Polish, Russian, or the darker ones.
Marc:The Sephardic ones, the swarthy ones.
Marc:But, well, yeah, man, so Detroit.
Marc:So the whole family comes from Detroit?
Marc:Your grandfather moved to Detroit?
Guest:My grandfather moved to Detroit.
Guest:All my grandparents moved and my mom and dad.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Because I don't think I've met a full clan or heard about a full clan of Detroit Jews.
Guest:They're like, fuck New York.
Guest:I think you got to be my age.
Guest:I'm 65.
Guest:I grew up in the 50s and 60s.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:But Motor City.
Marc:So what was going on?
Marc:How many siblings you got?
Guest:I got a sister.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's the official statistician of the United States of America.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:She's still got a job?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's not a government job?
Guest:Is it a government job?
Guest:It is a government job.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I better not talk about it.
Marc:I want to get axed.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Marc:We've got a president that only likes numbers a certain way.
Marc:Yeah, in his favor.
Marc:So what was it like in Detroit?
Marc:Because I just saw the movie Detroit and it was not good.
Marc:I mean, the movie was good, but it seemed horrible.
Marc:Like a war zone in the 60s.
Guest:Well, that week, yeah.
Guest:But, you know, I mean...
Guest:it wasn't a great place to be a person of color, but what is?
Guest:You know, your show with Benny Maupin was great, and Benny talked a lot about growing up in Detroit.
Guest:He's about 12 years older than me.
Guest:So take out Yusuf Lateef and put in MC5 and the Stooges, and you got the era I come from.
Guest:The Stooges played in my high school.
Marc:The other side of town.
Marc:It was your high school, that famous high school?
Marc:Did they do it a lot?
Marc:Because I know there's one.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where there's pictures of them.
Guest:Yeah, it's not that one.
Guest:I went to Oak Park High School.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But they played a sock hop or something.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Are you making it up?
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:Were you there?
Guest:I was kind of there, yeah.
Guest:What year?
Guest:68 maybe, 69, somewhere in there.
Guest:So they were just making that, did they have a set?
Guest:They were a local band.
Guest:Bob Seger played in my high school.
Guest:Parliament Funkadelic played in my junior high school.
Guest:Stop it.
Guest:Well, they were called the Parliaments.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:But that must have been before they broke it open.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, they lip-synced.
Guest:I just want to testify.
Guest:They came with a DJ from a local AM station, and they moved like the Temptations, but they were dressed like hippies, and they blew everybody's mind.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I bet you they did.
Marc:But they didn't do any long sort of spaced out kind of synthesizing.
Marc:No, they lip synced to 45.
Marc:I heard that that was not an uncommon thing, the lip syncing.
Marc:I talked to Hunt Sales and him and Tony were like kids and they do the lip syncing gigs.
Guest:You had to.
Guest:There were no PAs.
Guest:You couldn't set up a band.
Guest:You'd go with the DJ.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was kind of an early form of payola.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:A DJ would get a gig at a sock hop.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Maybe at 150 bucks for showing up and emceeing.
Guest:And all the kids loved the DJ.
Guest:The kids loved the DJ.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:But the bands played free.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he'd play the record.
Marc:Right.
Yeah.
Marc:No PA needed, really.
Marc:No PA needed.
Marc:I can't believe the Stooges.
Marc:That must have been something at that time.
Marc:They were badass, man.
Marc:They were, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, what were they doing?
Marc:Were they doing covers?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:They were doing the first album.
Marc:Did people look just like, well, what the fuck?
Marc:What the fuck is happening?
Marc:Or were they already accustomed to?
Guest:No, it was the Detroit thing, man.
Guest:There was a whole, you know, Stooges and the Five were like it.
Guest:A really pivotal experience for me was one night we went down to Joel Landy's print shop where he printed up the Fifth Estate, which was the local underground paper, the guy I went to high school with.
Guest:And the MC5 were there, or members of the MC5, I know Wayne was there, jamming with members of Pharaoh Saunders Band.
Guest:Wow, yeah.
Guest:Now, I know I didn't even have half my wits about me that night, but I do know that I never heard anything like that before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or really after, you know, required those individuals under those circumstances.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The one-time thing.
Guest:It was a one-time thing, but it was a first.
Guest:And that really stayed with me.
Guest:You know, make something that no one's ever heard before.
Guest:That's a really good thing to do.
Marc:Yeah, if you can do it.
Guest:Right?
Guest:You can do it.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But it's not easy.
Marc:But is selling it a part of that equation or that doesn't matter?
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:I believe that if you do original soulful stuff that comes from an honest place, that's your best business plan.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And people will dig it.
Marc:Someone will.
Yeah.
Marc:But the more I talk about it, or just thinking about it right now with you, it seems that Detroit was equally as important American music on some levels as New Orleans, in a way.
Guest:Yeah, I know my friends from New Orleans will take umbrage at this, but I'm 100% with you.
Guest:Deeper history.
Guest:Deeper history in New Orleans, right?
Guest:But Detroit- Deeper history, but Detroit- To rock and roll.
Guest:After World War II.
Guest:People came from not just all over the country, but all over the world to work in the auto factories.
Guest:Make those cars.
Guest:And they brought their cultures with them.
Guest:And that was the beauty of growing up when they actually made cars in Detroit.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Was that you heard every kind of music.
Guest:And when people would come together and combine the music, you'd get...
Marc:incredible stuff sure man i was really fortunate to grow up in a in that time yes it was a huge industry huge man yeah yeah making the cars for the world for the world motor city yeah and then i guess i guess some of that i mean i don't know if that's more of a metaphoric or poetic idea that some of that like kind of like that that groove of a you know making machinery like you know assembly lines i don't i don't think that really made its way into the music necessarily
Guest:Here's what I think made its way into the music, is that everybody who was from Detroit in that period of time came from a situation where their fate was inextricably tied to the auto business.
Guest:Through family?
Guest:My parents were both teachers, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But if auto sales were down, they'd lay off workers.
Guest:Workers would move away to another city to find new work, and so there'd be fewer kids in school, so they'd lay off teachers.
Guest:They'd lay off barber.
Guest:So, everybody was in the same boat and there was really no point in putting on any airs because everyone knew the story.
Guest:So, no one was renting Mercedes.
Guest:I never saw a Rolls Royce till I got out here.
Guest:There's maybe one limo in Detroit when I was and it's probably like parked at the airport.
Guest:You never saw that stuff.
Guest:Because there was really no point in pretending you were something else.
Guest:That's the beauty of it.
Guest:So, you get a really honest population and the music and the art and the culture of Detroit reflects that.
Guest:It's basic and it's raw and it's for real.
Guest:John Lee Hooker to me is the epitome of Detroit music.
Guest:When did you start playing?
Guest:In the late 50s when I was, you know, in like six or seven.
Guest:Always bass?
Guest:No, I was piano and guitar.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:And then like a lot of guys my age, I was born in 1952, we were 12 when the Beatles were on Ed Salton.
Guest:Yeah, I hear about this, that moment.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:And at 12, you looked at it and you thought, wow, I could use that edge with chicks, right?
Guest:That's what everybody says.
Guest:A little help would go a long way.
Guest:And at 12, you're just dumb enough to think that you can actually pull it off.
Guest:If you were a little older, maybe you'd have said, well, I'd like to do that, but maybe I should get that law degree to fall back on.
Guest:And if you were eight, it didn't register.
Guest:So a lot of musicians my age, an inordinate number of people born my year, and I really attribute it to that.
Guest:So we started forming rock and roll bands.
Marc:To the Beatles on Sullivan.
Marc:You're like, that's our window.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:We just got to wear the same clothes and play okay, and we can get girls.
Guest:Yeah, well, it seemed that way.
Guest:It's a little more complicated, but it kind of works.
Guest:So what was the first band?
Guest:First band was called the Saturns, and we won a local TV talent show.
Guest:Originals, covers, what?
Guest:We'd had some originals.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:They weren't very good.
Guest:I think we covered, we did Let's Twist Again.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:Chubby Checker and- Not the twist, the let's twist again like we did last summer.
Marc:Like we did last summer.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:People were already twisting.
Marc:People were twisting.
Marc:And we won.
Marc:We just wanted to make sure they keep them twisting.
Yeah.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:So you want to be part of that.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you won.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, we won.
Marc:Did you do a record?
Guest:No, we won a portable TV set.
Guest:Four guys, one TV set.
Guest:And so we sold it at the drummer's dad had a drugstore.
Guest:Sold it for 60 bucks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And what'd you do with that?
Marc:split it up probably probably bought records sure man yeah and and and then what did when was the when did you start uh like did you do you do any records with bands before your bands uh right before like was not was like way back no it was hard you had to you had to earn your way into a studio
Guest:yeah oh really well you didn't have you couldn't just pay no one had a garage band on my laptop sure so you had to have some money yeah and you had to get a backer have a hit have a song someone wanted to move well you had to earn it you had to earn the slot and so I was just I was just playing a lot and ultimately took a class in engineering where they taught everything wrong but it got me in the studio oh really wait how old were you
Guest:I was probably in my early 20s at that point.
Marc:After high school?
Marc:Did you go to college?
Guest:Yeah, I went to University of Michigan for a year.
Marc:In Ann Arbor?
Guest:In Ann Arbor, yeah.
Marc:That's a good town.
Marc:It's a great town, man.
Marc:But this is like, so you're, like, Kramer and those guys, they were a little older than you, right?
Marc:By what?
Marc:Two years or something.
Marc:That's it?
Guest:Yeah, but that's a big difference in that, you know, when you're, there's a difference between being 14 and 16, you know.
Guest:In the late 60s.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:i guess yeah but i mean you were of that age so you know you saw the culture kind of breaking apart oh you're old enough to you're born in 54 52 52 so i was born in 63 so by 65 i mean you're wide awake yeah oh yeah you just saw the whole thing the wheels come off oh yeah yeah yeah no it was an exciting time you know not uh not too dissimilar to this time in many ways but uh the the
Guest:The counterculture has not quite manifested the way it did then.
Marc:Well, no one goes outside anymore, man.
Marc:It takes a lot to get people out.
Marc:And also everybody can live in their own fucking world on their computer.
Marc:They can just cherry pick the community they're in if they're in any at all.
Guest:Going outside is the thing.
Marc:Yeah, go to the thing.
Marc:Not like, how far away is it?
Marc:Is there going to be parking at the protest?
Guest:How are we going to... Let me check ways.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:It's jammed for you.
Guest:No, it's going to look like we're getting in.
Marc:But did you go?
Marc:Were you part of that?
Marc:Did you go to those MC5 shows?
Guest:Yeah, I went to MC5 shows.
Guest:I went to anti-war riots.
Marc:Because Sinclair was sort of out there, and he was doing this.
Marc:John Sinclair.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was my hero, man.
Guest:We were still good friends.
Guest:Yeah, I love John.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:He's still around?
Guest:Yeah, but he was the guy.
Guest:He was the leader of the city, man.
Marc:He was, of the counterculture.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so you were hanging out at his place?
Marc:On the young side, I couldn't move in.
Marc:Right.
Marc:To the comic with the MC5 guy.
Marc:You know, it probably saved you.
Marc:The fact that you couldn't move in probably saved you a life of drug addiction and horror.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Maybe you made it out of that one.
Marc:I dabbled anyway.
Marc:You seem all right.
Marc:You seem queer, right?
Guest:You come out of it all right.
Marc:Yeah, you did all right.
Marc:You don't look too beat up.
Marc:So you take this engineering class.
Yeah.
Marc:And what happens?
Marc:How do you get?
Guest:I caught my way into a job at a studio and just started recording.
Marc:In Detroit?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What studio?
Marc:Who are you?
Guest:Well, a guy named Jack Tan had a little place called Mastermind Studios, $10 an hour, on top of an abandoned, it was the Westinghouse building.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we had these cardboard boxes on the walls, and it was funky, but it was making records.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And who were you making records of?
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Just anybody who come through.
Guest:You know, some jazz.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The first session I did was for a jazz saxophone player named Sam Sanders.
Guest:Someone just put it out, by the way.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:In the UK.
Guest:Someone licensed it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was the first session I ever did.
Marc:And were you just an engineer?
Guest:I was just engineering it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Someone put it out because of you or because everyone's putting out all.
Marc:There seems to be a tremendous global race on who can find the weirdest, most esoteric records to put on 180-gram vinyl or re-release of something.
Marc:That's exactly what this is.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It's like, I found one.
Marc:I found one of Chet Atkins under his car.
Marc:Didn't even mean to be playing.
Marc:For me, like, those Acquired Taste, the out there shit, like, I like that just on when I'm doing shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sort of like, where are we going?
Marc:I think a lot of that stuff, people go like, what the fuck is this if you're sitting there with expectations?
Marc:But if you just let it roll, you can kind of edit, okay.
Guest:Well, the stuff will jump out.
Guest:A really important thing happened to me when I was about 14.
Guest:I was driving around with my mom running errands, and she left me in the car with the keys so I could play with the radio.
Guest:It was on a Sunday, and the local jazz station broadcast on AM on a Sunday.
Guest:And I tuned into the station just as a song that I later discovered was part of the Blue Note catalog.
Guest:Mode for Joe by Joe Henderson came on.
Guest:And if you play that song, check out, I came in just as a saxophone solo was starting.
Guest:And it wasn't about notes.
Guest:It wasn't about techniques.
Guest:He was like howling with anguish.
Guest:yeah yeah uh through the horn yeah and he was speaking to me i actually i was 14 man i was stunned to hear this and well just listen to the soul yeah it was anguished yeah he was in pain yeah and then the drummer joe chambers kicks in about 20 seconds yeah and the thing starts to swing like crazy and and he falls into the groove and the message that
Guest:came through to me as a 14 year old was Don you got to groove in the face of adversity and really it really struck me like what kind of music is this I went out and I bought an FM portable FM radio just to listen to the jazz station just to listen to WCHD yeah and uh
Guest:Yeah, I soon found that a lot of the music that was speaking to me was coming out of what was then a very obscure little label called Bluno Records.
Guest:Back then?
Guest:Back then.
Guest:And my buddies and I, we'd ride buses across town just to hold the albums.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We couldn't afford them.
Guest:They were four bucks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you could read the liner notes and see that you'd check the names because it was like a repertory company of musicians.
Marc:So that was your first, you're a jazz guy.
Marc:At heart.
Guest:I don't really differentiate.
Guest:I mean, Bob Dylan was super important to me.
Guest:Stones was super important to me.
Guest:But yeah, the jazz really spoke to me from the time I was a young teenager.
Marc:But it's interesting because that form, you're kind of a popular music guy, really, production-wise, right?
Marc:As a producer, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because there's a certain level of chops, and I don't know how much jazz you play.
Guest:Not that much anymore, but that's how it came up.
Guest:I played bars, played bebop in Detroit until I was in my 30s, just playing bars.
Marc:Did you play stand-up bass?
Guest:Yeah, stand-up and electric.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you go to engineering school, but you're still playing.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:That's how I lived.
Guest:When did you pick up the bass?
Yeah.
Guest:I picked up the bass when I was in high school because there were a couple of keyboard players who were better than me and a couple of guitar players who were better than me and there were no bass players.
Guest:So it was just a practical decision at the time.
Guest:Although Paul McCartney was a pretty cool bass player.
Guest:He was, right?
Guest:And I could relate to what he was playing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, Ron Carter was a mystery.
Guest:Paul McCartney, I was like, this is genius.
Guest:And I can play this thing.
Guest:I can kind of do that.
Guest:You can figure this out.
Guest:I don't know where that other guy's going.
Guest:That takes some work.
Guest:all right so that so that was your thing you're playing behind who do you do any the the main person i worked with was like a hard bot piano player woman by the name of lenore paxton i played with her for 10 years and we just did bars in detroit and uh mostly the club called bob and rob's lounge out in class in michigan and i probably learned more about music from her than anybody for the rest did she record
Guest:Not really.
Guest:Really?
Guest:But 10 years, you were with her.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Maybe longer even, you know, on and off.
Marc:Was you, her, and a drummer?
Marc:Horns, no horns?
Guest:No, no horns.
Guest:It was a trio, and the owner of Bob and Rob's was a singer who had this kind of Dick Hames...
Guest:He was good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was really too good to be like owning just a bar in Detroit.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And he'd get up and sing with us.
Guest:It was great, man.
Guest:It was a great period of time.
Guest:We'd do four or five sets a night.
Guest:I wouldn't know any of the songs.
Guest:I'd have to... She'd start...
Guest:And she'd help me a little bit with her left hand, pointing out what the chords were.
Guest:And then one time through, I better remember it because she was taken off.
Guest:And it was great, man.
Guest:It was great for building my ears and my chops and for exploring things.
Guest:And also the whole scene, man, playing in Barris is...
Guest:It's so much fun.
Guest:I just walk around and you just talk to the wildest people and hang out with them and it was really cool.
Marc:So, you're doing that, you're playing with her, you're playing with other things?
Guest:Yeah, all kinds of stuff.
Guest:I played with a great local folk musician named Ted Lucas.
Guest:The strangest booking we ever had was we had a multiracial folk band that somehow got booked to open for Black Sabbath.
Guest:at the toledo sports arena what year early 70s uh-huh and we didn't make it throughout the first song we were pelted with bottles and the drummer was bleeding and we stopped oh my god but i met ozzy there so that was after like the second sabbath record something like that maybe the first yeah well they were on a u.s tour but it's pretty early on but they were big enough to sell out the toledo sports arena uh-huh
Marc:Yeah, so it must have been after that.
Marc:Yeah, they were probably a couple records in.
Marc:Yeah, it could have just as easily been in 74.
Marc:What was it like watching them at that point?
Marc:Oh, he's great, man.
Guest:Yeah, that's a great band.
Marc:Yeah, it is a great band.
Guest:And Ozzy ended up singing on a Was Not Was record.
Guest:He did?
Guest:He sings.
Guest:I'll tell you a story, man.
Guest:We had a song that none of our singers could sing.
Guest:And so Michael Zilka, who ran Z Records, said, there's this wonderful girl from Detroit.
Guest:You should use her.
Guest:She's going to be a very big star.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was Madonna, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Before she put out her first record.
Guest:So we recorded her.
Guest:We spent a couple days doing it.
Guest:And she was great, man.
Guest:I loved her.
Guest:She was really sweet.
Guest:And she worked real hard.
Guest:But it didn't sound like was, not was.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I said, Michael, we...
Guest:We can't put this out.
Guest:He said, you're making a huge mistake.
Guest:She's going to be very big.
Guest:I said, no, man, she's a disco singer.
Guest:Is this the first record you're talking?
Guest:This is Born to Laugh at Tornadoes.
Guest:A song called Shake Your Head.
Guest:It's on the second album, the Geffen.
Guest:And so we took her off.
Guest:And then it was like, well, what are we going to do now?
Guest:So my attorney also represented Ozzy.
Guest:And he said, well, call Ozzy.
Guest:And Ozzy did it.
Guest:Now, years later, we had Ozzy and Madonna on parallel tracks.
Guest:And so we redid it as a duet with Ozzy and Madonna.
Guest:And to her credit, Madonna nixed it.
Guest:And Kim Basinger came in and sang it.
Guest:And it's actually, it was outside of the United States, it was our biggest hit single ever.
Guest:Which one?
Guest:It's called Shake Your Head, duet with Kim Basinger and Ozzy Osbourne.
Guest:And Kim was so sweet, man.
Guest:She flew to London and she did a video with us.
Marc:Kim Basinger's not known for that kind of thing.
Guest:Well, she can sing, man.
Guest:She's a wonderful person, man.
Guest:I don't think people have a clue as to how... I just know her as an actress.
Marc:I don't know if she was a singer.
Marc:Yeah, good singer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:But that record, it seems like you had Mitch Ryder on there, too?
Marc:Yeah, Mitch Ryder.
Marc:And Kramer was on there?
Marc:Wayne?
Guest:Wayne's on it.
Guest:Yeah, Marshall Crenshaw's on it.
Guest:Doug Figer from The Knack.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Are they a Detroit band?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, Doug, I was in a band with him when I was 12.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, no, he's a good friend.
Yeah.
Marc:I was in high school and that shit hit.
Marc:My Sharona.
Marc:Alright, so you're playing all these different gigs with these people, so you put together Was Not Was, and it was sort of like, what was the vision of the band, man?
Marc:Division of the band was to... Because it's sort of a funk band, eclectic band.
Guest:It was very eclectic, although if you're from Detroit, it makes perfect sense.
Guest:It's just everything we grew up with.
Guest:In fact, the first album had Wayne Kramer playing guitar and Marcus Belgrave, a great jazz trumpeter who played with Charles Mingus and Charles, he was playing trumpet.
Guest:And we had guys from P-Funk playing, Larry Fratangelo, the percussionist on all those records was on it.
Guest:It was just an amalgamation of our roots.
Guest:Of the Detroit sound?
Guest:Yeah, with David's lyrics on top, which were heavily influenced.
Guest:That wasn't so Detroit.
Guest:That was more Zappa and beat poetry and him.
Guest:David was an original man.
Guest:There's no one like him.
Marc:Is he still around?
Marc:Yeah, he's still around here.
Marc:He lives in L.A.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:And were you a Zappa guy?
Guest:Love Zappa.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I met him at the airport.
Guest:They were on a local TV show called Swingin' Time in Detroit in the 60s promoting their upcoming Freak Out album, the first release.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They blew our minds.
Guest:We saw that.
Guest:And then I saw him at the airport the next day.
Guest:And he gave me an autographed picture and stuff.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you work in and then you put out an 81 Was Not Was record, the first one.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:This is where production in records gets a little odd, doesn't it?
Marc:You mean in that period of time?
Marc:Yeah, in the 80s where the style of production, like there's a lot more tools at hand.
Guest:Well, I mean, it was before the computer stuff.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But we did those things.
Guest:They didn't have the digital drum machines.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they had like little 808s were around and that kind of thing.
Guest:But what we did was we'd have a drummer come in first.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and play the beat that i had in my head right and then we'd take the two best bars and you'd cut a tape loop which is you'd take the two inch tape uh-huh and you'd measure the start of one bar and and cut it for two bars yeah cut on the bass drum right the next one and then you'd
Guest:tape it together into a circle.
Guest:Then you set up these mic stands all over the control room and you'd keep running it through the cap stand and it would play over and over.
Guest:They didn't have samplers and it was beautiful, man.
Guest:So it had the feel of a live guy and it had the sound of analog tape and it was super steady.
Guest:And then we would build the tracks on top of that.
Guest:That's how you got the groove, the bass groove.
Marc:The drums.
Guest:And then we'd build up from the drums.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you'd put another live drum track on top of that?
Guest:Yeah, at the end, you'd have a live human come in and play on top.
Marc:Oh, so you'd pull the loop out and then put the live guy in after everything's set up?
Marc:That's sort of the backward way of doing it, right?
Guest:It's a terrible way of doing it.
Guest:But I didn't know how to do it any other way.
Guest:That's just how I did it.
Guest:Mainly because we didn't have the bread to pay for a room full of musicians.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:In time, eventually, really the first live band that I produced was the B-52s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That record, Love Shack, I produced.
Marc:How many?
Marc:Oh, in 89.
Marc:In 89.
Marc:Is that right?
Guest:And then I had to change my way of making records.
Guest:I remember asking them, well, how do you know when it's the take?
Guest:Because we didn't have multiple takes.
Guest:If you're building from a loop, there's only one take.
Yeah.
Marc:Oh, because you're just adding things.
Marc:You're not actually playing together.
Guest:You're not playing together.
Guest:You're building on one piece of real estate.
Marc:And that's how you did all those records?
Marc:You did all your records like that?
Guest:All the Was Dom Was albums were done like that.
Marc:You had a couple of hits, right?
Guest:Yeah, later in the... We had some big hits at the end of the 80s.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:What was the big hit?
Guest:Big hit is a song called Walk the Dinosaur and one called Spy in the House of Love.
Guest:And we had a few other ones over in Europe.
Guest:We were bigger in Europe.
Marc:Right, so that was exciting.
Marc:It was really exciting.
Marc:It was fun.
Marc:And you toured?
Guest:Yeah, we toured for years, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and you just put out, didn't you guys get together again?
Guest:In 2008, which has now been like almost 10 years.
Marc:Isn't that wild?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And we did one more album, which I actually think was our best record, and we toured then.
Guest:And I still get together with the guys and we play.
Guest:We do a show in Detroit every year.
Guest:Not everybody.
Marc:But was that the dream ultimately or did you always... Was production always something you're like... Was that your sort of like your fallback in your head that you had these other skills or were they all sort of coming together at the same time?
Guest:I wasn't separating them out.
Guest:There was something that happened around the time of Sergeant Pepper, I think, where...
Guest:where production techniques became a musical color.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To me, it was another instrument.
Guest:It still is.
Guest:What you do in the studio is you don't approach it that differently from the way you play your instrument.
Marc:So, but yeah, but you've sort of evolved as a producer over time.
Marc:Like, I mean, if you're telling me that from 81 to 89, you're not really letting them play live together.
Marc:Yeah, no, there's... Well, hopefully you evolve over time.
Marc:But like in that time, you work with Carly Simon.
Marc:I don't know these Ward Brothers records.
Guest:It's a British group.
Guest:Carly actually might have been on.
Guest:No, I think we cut it to a click.
Guest:Yeah, and what about Bonnie Raitt too?
Guest:No, Bonnie Raitt.
Guest:No, Bonnie Raitt was just after the B-52.
Guest:It was like a month after.
Marc:So you're like, guess what?
Marc:You can all play together.
Guest:Well, Bonnie wasn't going to have it any other way.
Guest:She cannot and will not play to a drum machine.
Guest:And I learned a whole lot making Nick of Time, man, and just being around Bonnie because she's as soulful and honest and genuine as a musician, as a singer, and as a human being as anybody I ever met.
Marc:Yeah, she's great.
Marc:She's a real blues legend.
Guest:Oh man, I love her so much.
Guest:I get so moved when I hear her sing.
Guest:Sometimes I can't play her records because I get too emotional.
Guest:And I loved her long before I knew her.
Guest:I remember seeing her at the Ann Arbor Blues and Jazz Festival
Guest:in 1969 or something.
Guest:I bought her first album when it was new.
Guest:And I was just always a big fan.
Guest:So it was thrilled to be able to make those four records with her.
Guest:And it's still a thrill to play her.
Marc:Did you do the one that has Angel from Montgomery on it?
Marc:No, I wish.
Marc:Her cover of that is fucking insane.
Marc:It's killer.
Marc:Yeah, it's like heartbreaker, huh?
Yeah, yeah.
Guest:and you got to work with iggy too and i like that record yeah brick by brick brick by brick yeah thank you man i've done a couple with them yeah what was the other one uh it's called avenue b so huh that's a weird one is it it's a beautiful album it's an underrated album it's i love the song i won't crap out on brick by brick yeah thank you yeah i dig that one too that was a that was a fun record to make man
Marc:So how do you guys find each other?
Marc:I mean, why you?
Marc:Why do people, like, when they were like, I want that Don Was thing.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Come on, man.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I guess because I had other records on the charts, probably.
Guest:You know, it was 1989.
Guest:It was, in fact.
Guest:Oh, because the B-52s.
Guest:Well, you know, in fairness now to him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I left the session from... I said, I got to leave early.
Guest:We're doing brick by brick, and I left the session.
Guest:I said, I got to go to the Grammys.
Guest:I nominated for something.
Guest:I didn't even talk about it.
Guest:And that was the year we won Best Album of the Year for Nick of Time.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So it wasn't like he was jumping on the bandwagon because there wasn't really a bandwagon.
Guest:So I would say that... That was the album of the year, the Bonnie Raitt record?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that was 1989.
Guest:That's exciting.
Guest:And I was in the studio with Iggy, and I just, I left, and they were looking on TV.
Guest:I didn't even tell them why I was going.
Marc:It was here?
Marc:You were out here?
Marc:We were out here, yeah.
Guest:And then there I was, and then we just went back to work the next day.
Marc:And what's he, as a vocalist, exclusively a vocalist, what's he looking for?
Marc:What's the relationship with him and the producer, with you specifically?
Marc:what was he looking for in that record what were you going to do for iggy pop knowing iggy pops having seen him in high school should you tell him oh yeah no i did yeah but you know something he as wild as he is on stage he's also a very deep guy you should have him i've had him on yeah he's very oh yeah very thoughtful intelligent dude brilliant he's he's surprising he's like keith where you're like oh i get it it's a character
Marc:It's the other part of you.
Guest:It's a part of you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's for real.
Guest:I don't think you can.
Marc:Oh, no, no.
Marc:You can't.
Guest:It's not like Alice Cooper or something like that where he'll tell you he's playing a character.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:I'm doing shtick.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:It's definitely that.
Marc:Well, that's what, you know, Rollins said that to me.
Marc:He said, you know, when you're talking to Jim, it's different than Iggy.
Marc:You know, Iggy is Iggy.
Marc:Jim is Jim.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, that's absolutely right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But you see where it comes from.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I think he just wanted good tracks.
Guest:He wanted to make a quality record.
Marc:Did he want to make a... Because there's a single on there, right?
Marc:Yeah, it was a big single, Candy Candy.
Marc:And was he thinking in terms of that?
Marc:Because it doesn't seem like certain artists are ever really thinking in terms of that, but I imagine producers are always kind of thinking in terms of that.
Marc:You want a single on a record.
Guest:Can I tell you something, man?
Guest:I've always been a little removed from popular, like top 10 pop record.
Guest:I don't really have a whole lot of hit singles that I've worked on.
Guest:So my orientation as a producer is just to try to get an artist with a great vision and help them realize it, whatever that vision may be.
Guest:And if I feel I can be of assistance...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'll do the record.
Guest:And sometimes I think, I don't know how to do what you're talking about.
Guest:And you should probably call this person.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:I'll buy the record the day it comes out.
Marc:Who have you sent away down?
Marc:I wouldn't tell you.
Marc:But I have declined.
Marc:I can't help you, man.
Marc:It does seem like there have been some people that you work with that were on the other side of the arc of their career a little bit.
Guest:In a way, you know, someone John Mayer once said to me, how come you always do the album after the big one?
Guest:And John's a real good friend.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love him.
Guest:And I know he was just being a bit of a, or he might just want to know the answer.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:Just busting your balls a little bit.
Guest:I didn't bust him in the chops to ask him, but I thought about it and I thought, well.
Guest:Got you thinking.
Guest:It's usually, if you have some big hit single, it may not be an accurate reflection of who you are.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:And maybe people want to get back on track.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think that's the kind of record I make.
Marc:Because you did that, you sort of did that with Elton John, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He played piano.
Guest:He didn't play an electric piano.
Guest:We got him on a grand piano, which at the time was something he was shying away from.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you did it like, well, the Dylan record, what was that like?
Guest:Well, you know, Bob's my hero.
Guest:I believe we were woefully unprepared to produce that record.
Guest:Under the Red Sky?
Guest:Under the Red Sky, yeah.
Marc:I don't know if I know the record specific.
Marc:I don't know if I have the record.
Guest:It's not hailed as one of his masterpieces.
Marc:Yeah, but there's a few of those.
Marc:It's not your fault.
Guest:Well, I can tell you what I did wrong on that.
Guest:It's just that I went in thinking, all right, let's make Blonde on Blonde part two or something like that.
Guest:And that's the furthest thing from Bob Dylan's mind is repeating himself.
Guest:It's the furthest thing from most great artists.
Guest:He was trying to do something else.
Guest:The assistant engineer ran a cassette of the talking between songs on the first session I did with him.
Guest:And he said, man, you may want to have this as a souvenir.
Guest:And I plopped it in when I was driving home from the session.
Guest:And I landed right on a spot where Bob was telling me something he wanted to do.
Guest:And I was telling him why it wouldn't work before we tried it.
Guest:I waited all my life to work with this guy, man, my hero.
Guest:And I didn't even chase up his idea.
Guest:And I pulled over.
Guest:I wanted to throw up.
Guest:I was so sick.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:But it was a good lesson.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What you can hear in Under the Red Sky is the beginnings of what he later went on to do, which was this kind of rootsy American music, I think, based in blues.
Marc:The weird, the sort of ghost troubadour time traveler of Americana music.
Guest:That's actually a really good description, man.
Guest:And I think he would like that description.
Guest:But he was headed that way, and I was probably not helping him get there, and I learned a lot from that.
Marc:You guys have friends or no?
Marc:Yeah, still friends, yeah.
Marc:But like friends' friends, or like when you see him, he says hi?
Guest:No, we just did something fairly recently that I can't talk about.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:How's he doing?
Guest:He's great, man.
Guest:And I still, I love his music so much.
Guest:I watch all his shows.
Guest:I follow his tours on YouTube.
Guest:There's always someone with a phone taping it.
Guest:And I think he's a great singer.
Guest:You have to really listen.
Guest:You got to forget about the original versions of the songs.
Guest:But if you really listen to what he's doing, he's inhabiting
Guest:every word of those songs and approaching them with a beginner's mind, a fresh mind every night, and they ring true.
Guest:He's a deep guy, man.
Guest:And he's really a great singer.
Marc:No, I agree with you.
Marc:I think that there are periods where he was doing something up there that was either out of,
Marc:uh spite or or or exhaustion but i always think it's funny that you know for years people be like i don't know what song this is i don't know what he's saying you know he'd do a whole tour like that right yeah i don't know what's going on and then he released a record of like crooning like you know completely clear perfect uh audible vocals and to me that's sort of like i wasn't feeling it fuck you you know in a way
Guest:I love the Sinatra records.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I think he's really found... First of all, it's really hard to tackle those songs and follow... You can't follow Frank's footsteps in or you're doomed, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he's found a really... A totally original way to inhabit those songs and be himself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's brilliant.
Marc:I think it's a very interesting...
Marc:Because I have to assume that he doesn't need to tour other than for his own emotional and creative needs.
Marc:He tours because that's what he does.
Marc:You play.
Marc:Musicians play.
Marc:And I think that his commitment to it at this point in his life and the way he is approaching it, which is sort of like a performance piece,
Guest:you know every year that this this particular manifestation of dylan is sort of it's it's very interesting and it's it's very sort of timeless it's i i think he's great uh yeah i mean i saw him he did a that desert storm concert yeah i love that show but i love this tour that he's on right now i i think he's delivering a hundred percent every night
Guest:I think so.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I agree with you.
Marc:But obviously we can't go through everybody, but you got to work with Seeger on a record that, I don't know, The Fire Inside.
Marc:But you were just playing bass?
Guest:No, I produced it.
Guest:And I play bass too.
Guest:Yeah?
Marc:Do you play bass on a lot of these?
Guest:If asked, I never offer.
Marc:You did another with the B-52s, Glenn Frey.
Marc:Detroit.
Marc:Rest his soul.
Marc:Rory Orbison, that must have been something.
Marc:That's beautiful.
Marc:He's a sweet guy, really good guy.
Marc:And when he opened his mouth, it was like, wow.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Waylon Jennings did a country trip.
Marc:You did the Brian Wilson doc?
Guest:I directed a documentary about Brian Wilson.
Marc:I think I saw that doc.
Marc:It's good.
Guest:I just wasn't made for these times.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's heartbreaking.
Marc:He's heartbreaking to me.
Marc:well just not not because it's he's sad it's just there's a couple of people and i've said this before on the show where i have a hard time listening to it because i can feel the vulnerability and the pain of it well that's what makes him a great artist too no doubt no doubt but like some people hear the beauty of it and for me it's sort of like when i hear it i'm like oh he's so sad like it's just like it's hard for me to hear yeah i understand that yeah you don't you don't
Guest:I think at his best, what he did was make kind of sad, wistful songs with this great harmony and upbeat thing underneath and you don't necessarily, it's like Hank Williams kind of, Hank Williams wrote the darkest, saddest, most depressing songs, but he was going out playing roadhouses and he knew that people had to stay and drink, right?
Guest:So, he put, you know, Cold, Cold Heart, you know, that's like got this beat and it's up and major key and stuff.
Guest:Yeah, listen, it was lyrics, but that was Hank's thing.
Guest:We tried to copy that a little bit in Was Not Was.
Guest:I tried to do music that would be the opposite of the lyrics.
Guest:It was based on a theory that if you had a beautiful diamond and you wanted to show it to somebody, if you put it down on ice, you won't see it.
Guest:You put it down on black velvet.
Guest:yeah people can see the diamond right so i it was a device didn't always work sometimes you go too far and it's just an alienation device sure but it's an old blues device too right i mean that's the heart of it i think it has to do with playing bars you know right you you got to keep people drinking or you don't get paid at the end of the right they don't ask you back it's sort of like hard buck like the transition from you know into interesting hard buck you know what i mean yeah
Marc:Like, you know, like maybe we can't go all the way out there.
Marc:Why don't we tighten it up a little bit and give people something they can swing to?
Guest:Well, that's very... You know, that's something I... Once I took the gig at Blue Note, I really had to figure out... I was hired to continue the aesthetic of the previous 73 years, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So what is that aesthetic?
Guest:Well, it turns out the...
Guest:The guys who founded the label, Alfred Lyon, Frank Wolf, and a couple of their buddies wrote this little manifesto when they started in 1939.
Guest:And they dedicated themselves to the pursuit of authentic music and to providing uncompromising freedom of expression.
Guest:That's the essence of the manifesto.
Guest:But if you really follow the history of what they did...
Guest:They just pushed the envelope in every era.
Guest:They started doing like stride piano players, but by 10 years in, they wanted to get into bebop.
Guest:They chose Monk of all the people, man, the most out there cat at the time.
Guest:But they made these incredible seminal records with Thelonious Monk that changed the face of music, changed the way people wrote songs, changed the way people approached solos, changed the way people voiced chords and how you played behind the solos.
Guest:So, so influential, but they saw that and no one else was really seeing it at the time.
Guest:Jump ahead to what you're talking about, the hard bop stuff.
Guest:That was Horace Silver and Art Blakey.
Guest:Art Blakey's throwing in backbeats, Horace Silver's doing this funky gospel stuff.
Guest:And you couldn't do that at Minton's Playhouse.
Guest:You kicked off the bandstand for that.
Guest:That was revolutionary music.
Guest:You listen to it now, it sounds pretty much, it's become such a part of the musical vocabulary that it sounds normal.
Guest:But it was radical at the time.
Guest:You jump ahead to the 60s, you got Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter making these modal jazz records reflecting what they were doing with Miles.
Guest:That was pretty radical.
Guest:So what happened to Blue Note?
Marc:Why are all these two, they're Japanese, owned Blue Note for a while?
Guest:What was that?
Guest:Well, it's gone through a series of ownerships, but it costs money every time you've got to reissue a record.
Guest:You've got to remaster it and you've got to do some costs at the front.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there have been times when Blue Note's been owned by companies that haven't appreciated the value of the catalog and didn't want to invest in it.
Marc:So, in those time periods- Were there time periods where there were shitty reissues, like quality-wise?
Guest:Yeah, it's uneven.
Guest:You know, there's a whole philosophy to remastering.
Guest:I think it's something you can dramatically alter the character of a record when you remaster it.
Guest:You don't want to do that though, right?
Guest:No, you don't, man.
Guest:But a lot of people think, well, let's improve it.
Guest:We can improve this now with the technology.
Marc:It's so weird, man.
Marc:It's so weird when people do that.
Marc:I know there are some rock acts that are sort of like, well, let's reissue.
Marc:They can sell it again.
Marc:You can sell a thing nine times, nine different formats.
Guest:I'll tell you a story.
Guest:We were...
Guest:In 1993, when I started working with the Stones, they signed Virgin Records, and they were going to reissue the catalog.
Guest:So everything had to be remastered.
Guest:From the beginning?
Guest:The whole catalog?
Guest:No, no, from what they owned, which the post-apco.
Guest:The first thing was Sticky Fingers in Exile were the first two.
Guest:And so we got the original tapes and sent it to the maestro of mastering.
Guest:Yeah, whoever that is.
Guest:It was Bob Ludwig.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:He was a genius.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Look at his discography.
Guest:It'll blow your mind, man.
Guest:But we didn't give him any instructions.
Guest:So Bob went in and made it sound up to par with 1993, like added an octave, a low end and stuff.
Guest:He was doing what he thought the record company wanted, but we listened to it and you couldn't recognize it.
Yeah.
Marc:Really, you listen to Sticky Fingers and be like, what is that?
Marc:Well, it just sounded different.
Guest:Really, not Bob's fault.
Guest:He's a genius.
Guest:But we'd listen, all right, what's wrong here?
Guest:Well, let's put up the original tapes and see what we got.
Guest:So we listened to the unmastered Exile and Sticky Fingers, and that doesn't sound like the album you remember, that I remember, that they remember.
Guest:It doesn't?
Guest:No.
Guest:It's because someone mastered it and did something to it.
Guest:Originally.
Guest:And that's how you heard it.
Guest:You didn't hear it raw.
Guest:They're all really different.
Guest:Every song is different, especially Exile, which was made all over the world.
Guest:Did you work on that remastered Exile?
Guest:I worked on two different versions of Exile.
Guest:I didn't do the remaster.
Guest:I worked on the remastering in 93.
Guest:And then a few years ago, we did a second disc of where they finished, somewhat finished songs.
Guest:And I worked on those.
Marc:Yeah, I got that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:A couple of those songs are pretty good.
Marc:There's some cool stuff.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's definitely worth hearing.
Marc:Oh, yeah, it's great.
Guest:So anyway, so then we started, we got all the CDs together.
Guest:And you listen to all the different CDs and the cassettes, everything.
Guest:And they're all radically different.
Guest:And it turns out like some guy working a plant in Germany on the midnight shift decides to add treble.
Guest:And that's the new sound of Exile on Main Street going forward.
Guest:So we thought, all right, what are we going to do?
Guest:Finally, we answered an ad in Goldmine Magazine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A guy had virgin vinyl copies still in the shrink wrap from 1972, Exile, and he had a version of Sticky Fingers too.
Guest:So he brought it up to my house in Mulholland where we were recording Voodoo Lounge, not knowing that he was bringing it to Mick and Keith, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's when you wish they'd invented iPhones earlier.
Marc:You want to get that on tape?
Guest:It was great, man.
Marc:But we put that on.
Marc:So he comes over with the records and you introduce him to the guy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did he just melt?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, it blew his mind.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:It was one of the greatest things ever.
Guest:Could he talk?
Guest:They're buying their own record from him.
Guest:Could he talk?
Guest:Could he even function?
Guest:Yeah, he was cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he could function enough to know not to charge them for it, but to ask them to sign a dozen albums.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So everyone made out like bandits on the deal.
Guest:So what'd you do with those records?
Guest:Well, you put it on.
Guest:Ah.
Guest:There's Exile.
Guest:So, we sent that to Ludwig and we said, this is what it's supposed to sound like and he got it.
Guest:And the remasters from 93 sound great because they adhere to the aesthetics of the original artistic impulse.
Marc:So, he didn't rip it from the wax, he just got this- He could hear it.
Guest:He understood what it was.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:But you have to have some frame of reference and even the Stones didn't have a frame of reference.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It had been so long.
Guest:I wouldn't expect him to with Exile or either of those records.
Marc:I'm surprised they have a frame reference for that decade.
Guest:So, same thing at Blue Note.
Guest:But it's so much more simple.
Guest:Well, it's not.
Guest:It's simple having gone through that exercise.
Guest:But if you put up the unmastered tapes, it doesn't sound like the records you remember.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:But Rudy Van Gelder did his own mastering.
Guest:Rudy Van Gelder, who engineered all those classic albums in the 50s and 60s.
Guest:And not just for Bluna, but he did the Impulse records.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He did Love Supreme.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he'd master them, and there was a sound there that everybody liked.
Guest:But over the years, the reissues get fogged.
Guest:Sometimes they're amazing.
Guest:There's a company called Music Matters that does our audiophile work, and they sound incredible.
Guest:But they figured it out.
Guest:You've got to go back to the original virgin vinyl that everybody approved.
Guest:and match to the feel of that.
Guest:So that's what we do now.
Marc:So listen to the record.
Marc:Don't rip it from the record or the CD.
Marc:Just get a guy with good ears who's a genius at that shit to take it from the record.
Marc:Because there are certain things you listen to.
Marc:I don't think it's a Blue Note record.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Who did the Giant Steps record?
Marc:The Coltrane?
Marc:That's on Atlantic.
Marc:So I got the new one, the vinyl on that.
Marc:It was a 10-inch, 45-speed, 180-gram thing.
Marc:and it sounds like it's in the fucking room it's so clean yeah there's no mess on it at all yeah and it just feels like it's just a balance thing like you know like bring that up that bring that level it out and that's it is that like isn't that how a lot of that jazz was recorded
Guest:well the the blue note stuff that's considered to be classic was they they cut it live to two track right they mixed it as they were recording yeah you don't have the option of bringing it's great yeah it's crazy yeah yeah so so now you just don't mess with it man that's really the thing is don't don't impose yourself on the scene man you know
Marc:So what is the vision that you have for Blue Note?
Marc:What is that thing I got in the mail that I listened to?
Guest:Oh, the Blue Note review, yes.
Guest:Well, the overall vision for Blue Note.
Marc:It's a nice box.
Marc:There's pictures in it.
Marc:There's paper.
Marc:There's a reissue of an old record.
Marc:Then there's a new record that's recorded live.
Marc:There's a scarf in there, I think.
Guest:John Varvatos designed a Blue Note scarf.
Guest:We got a magazine.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:The idea was, you know how we're talking about the liner notes for the Frank Zappa record and just my experience driving around Detroit on a bus trying to hold the albums, to restore that kind of experience of holding something and connecting with the artists.
Marc:It's a nice box.
Marc:Whenever I get something like that, I'm like, should I even play it?
Marc:Yeah, heck yeah, you should.
Guest:But there's actually a... The centerpiece of it is an anthology of new tracks from artists on the roster that aren't available anywhere else.
Guest:They don't stream.
Marc:They're live tracks, right?
Guest:No, a couple are live, but they're whatever.
Guest:But they're new and they've never come out.
Guest:And in some cases were created specifically for the box.
Guest:We're on box two now.
Guest:And that's all stuff recorded specifically to a theme for the box.
Guest:what's the theme the theme is uh the theme of of the album is uh it's about tony williams the album and tony williams great drummer played with miles davis in the 60s and and really totally revolutionized the approach to drums he made some great albums for blue note between uh late 80s and early 90s right up until the time he passed away really
Guest:Six albums that are kind of really underrated classics.
Guest:So we're trying to shine a light on those.
Guest:So the drummers on the roster are reimagining those songs.
Guest:So these are all new tracks.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:And what reissue are you putting in there?
Marc:It's going to be Bobby Hutchison record.
Marc:Okay, so that's nice.
Marc:So this is going to be a twice a year thing you do.
Marc:Twice a year, yeah.
Guest:It's by subscription.
Guest:We're just trying to do cool new stuff.
Guest:One of the things I felt taking the gig was that, you know, look, I stream music every day.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:But I miss that connection from the liner notes and from the package.
Guest:So how can we get back to that and maybe go past it?
Marc:and so we're just trying to uh well i'm in a vinyl hole i'm doing i you know i got a lot of records and i you know i got good equipment to listen to them on and i like it yeah and like and so you're on top of the newer blue note reissues too you're you're you oversee all that stuff yeah we got some great we got an 80th anniversary coming up in 2019 and we got some really cool and because there's a lot of audiophiles around now who are into the vinyl you know they're getting it
Guest:Vinyl's got an amazing sound, really distinctive.
Guest:It's a kind of distortion, really.
Guest:It's not pure, and that's what's good about it.
Guest:It's got some .
Guest:That gives it a soul and a feel.
Marc:Some more than others, depending on how many times it's been played or someone ate off it.
Marc:You buy used records sometimes, you're like, what was this guy doing with this record?
Marc:What is that?
Marc:How come I can't get this fingerprint off?
Marc:Was he handling it with shellac on his hands?
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Was he so high he melted like his hands were on fire?
Marc:That I can relate to, yeah.
Marc:Definitely happened.
Marc:His flesh was burning.
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:But that's what you do.
Marc:If you have a question, you're like, go find the original wax, put it on, give it to the guy, tell him to match it.
Guest:Yeah, just trust the initial impulse of the artist.
Guest:If everyone was, if they were all slapping hands at the end saying, yeah, this is great,
Guest:who are we to editorialize right right room man you know so sure and and if especially if it stands the test of time yeah why would you change that there was one of all the reissues we've done in the last six and a half years one of my favorite albums or net coleman live at the golden circle it's just a trio yeah david isenson and charles buffett and we discovered that the the left and right side are out of phase on the original tape yeah and
Guest:But because of that, the cymbals got this crazy sound.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But also because of it, the bass is a little blurry.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:So we put it back in phase.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the crazy sound on the cymbals went away.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you could hear the bass really well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What would you do?
Yeah.
Marc:Well, it's a tough question philosophically because if you want the record that people know, you know what I mean?
Marc:But that's also one of those things where it's like, well, you fixed it.
Marc:But you didn't fix it in a way that was idealized.
Marc:It wasn't like a preference thing.
Marc:It was like, no, this was engineered wrong and this is what it sounded like.
Marc:Unless Ornette did that on purpose.
Guest:I guarantee you he didn't.
Guest:It was done by an engineer at Stockholm who didn't realize that the mics were out of phase.
Guest:We put it in phase but figured out how to get the crazy sound out of the cymbals.
Guest:And so, it's got, because it's got a real quirky character.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It took weeks.
Guest:It really took weeks.
Guest:And a lot of people involved.
Guest:Meticulous.
Guest:But we got the quirkiness back in, but got it in phase.
Guest:And that's the one time we editorialized.
Guest:Oh, now I got to get that record.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You can't lose with that record.
Marc:And it's new.
Marc:You got a new reissue of it.
Guest:Yeah, a few years back.
Marc:We got to talk about the Stones before we go.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Do some Stones talk.
Marc:Because I talked to Keith, and it was a very fanboy interview.
Marc:It was goofy.
Marc:I got him laughing.
Marc:He had a good time.
Marc:But you did what?
Marc:Blue and Lonesome was the fifth Stones record you did?
Guest:Yeah, I've done some live ones too, a fifth studio album.
Guest:They all have these enormous personalities.
Guest:And they're all really different, and they pull in different directions.
Guest:And if you listen to any one track, you go, hmm, I don't know.
Guest:But when you put it together, you realize that it's this...
Guest:perfect blend.
Guest:Really quirky, but really perfect.
Guest:And they're still like that.
Guest:Oh, they're great, man.
Guest:You know, I've played with them a number of times.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you really understand it when you get inside of it because forget all the hypes and everything.
Guest:It's a really jocular, loose, fun, musical conversation that's going on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's so much fun to play bass in the Rolling Stones.
Guest:And they're great listeners.
Guest:They're like jazz musicians.
Guest:They never play it the same way twice.
Guest:Someone does something, they hear it.
Guest:You could tell just by talking to Keith, he's fast, he's quick, he's fast, he's sharp, he's really smart.
Guest:Charlie would do some little thing on the hi-hat, Keith would react to it, it'll impact how Mick sings, Ronnie would play something back.
Guest:The interplay is so brilliant in this band.
Guest:They're really on top of it that much in it.
Marc:They're so in it.
Guest:Yeah, and they still are.
Guest:I saw them in Stockholm in October on this No Filter tour.
Guest:They were awesome.
Guest:They're not playing backtracks on there.
Guest:They're playing live, all live.
Guest:They can't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I went with them to the Super Bowl.
Guest:And they were the first, maybe the only band to play completely live.
Guest:So you have seven minutes from the end of the second quarter to get the entire stage set up on the field and everyone to be balanced and tuned in.
Guest:And they didn't have Ronnie's guitar for like the first 30 seconds.
Guest:And it was like, oh my, I was sitting in, actually, you know what my gig was?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My gig at the Super Bowl was that the ABC or whoever, I think it was ABC, the censors didn't like two lines in the song.
Guest:You make a dead man come and start me up.
Guest:Am I still your roosted baby or am I just one of your cocks on Rough Justice?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And I had to hit the mute button on Vic's microphone on Cox and come.
Guest:And if I missed it, it was like a $5 million fine they had to pay for.
Guest:It was a thrill.
Guest:You got it?
I got it.
Marc:So like, but this last, like I was completely blown away by the most recent record by Blue and Lonzo.
Marc:Yeah, thank you.
Marc:Because, you know, people like me had been talking, I talked to Keith about it when I talked to him.
Marc:I'm like, why don't you guys do a blues record?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they're like, I talked to Mick, you know, like, so...
Marc:So when that happened and, you know, and I got it and I was like, oh, my God, they did it.
Marc:They like I felt like, you know, like, you know, like I just felt like I was cheering in my car like that.
Marc:It worked because that's what they come from.
Marc:That that record could have been their first album.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:In terms of the song list.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:And I was so impressed that, you know, not only the production, but just how they got into those songs.
Marc:And because the problem with the blues, if there is a problem, is that, you know, any idiot can play it.
Marc:And God bless the idiots.
Marc:And I hope they're having a good time.
Marc:But to own it, you know, especially covers.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is no easy trick.
Marc:No.
Marc:So, you know, for them to own that, like they own that whole record.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because they're the fucking rolling.
Marc:It was one of those things where it's like, of course.
Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:It was an accident.
Guest:If we'd have said, let's do a blues record, it never would have happened.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We were getting used to a new studio.
Guest:We're at British Grove Studios at Mark Knopfler's place in London, which is a great studio, but we'd never been in there before.
Guest:So just getting used to the headphones, it was a little awkward.
Guest:So Keith, and I know he had it in the back of his mind anyway, the way to get everyone focused was he was holding on to Blue and Lonesome.
Guest:the song yeah yeah and he said let's do blue and lonesome yeah so they played it and it was magnificent yeah thankfully chris sharma the engineer hit record and we went in and listened to it and you know it was undeniable right so i said
Guest:Yeah, well, let's do another one.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And at the end of the first day, we'd done five blues songs.
Guest:Now, no one said, hey, do another five.
Guest:We got a blues album.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But we came back the next day and did more, but no one talked about it.
Guest:It's a little like a guy pitching a no-hitter.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No one talks about it in the dugout.
Guest:You jinx it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No one mentioned blues album.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And at the end of like...
Guest:Two and a half days we had the whole record in the can.
Guest:And still no one said, great, let's put out a blues album.
Guest:All playing live.
Guest:All live.
Guest:There's not a single overdub.
Guest:The thing is they were all in the same room.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And a lot of the drum sound comes from the vocal mic, for example.
Guest:Oh, that's what that is?
Guest:So if he punched a line, you'd lose the drums.
Guest:So you couldn't fix anything.
Guest:So that's exactly as it happened.
Marc:that's amazing and and like you know mick is like there's a because of that you know the sad thing that happened with that woman he used to date like there's a lot of recent blues in that guy and you know like he played the hell out of it the harmonica and he sang the out of some of those songs he's great on that record it's like unbelievable
Guest:There's something else.
Guest:They're really giants who walk the earth.
Guest:I'm not being hyperbolic.
Marc:When I saw them live, and I hadn't seen them live since 81 in San Diego, and they did, in the encore, they did Midnight Rambler.
Marc:Maybe it was the last song.
Marc:And to know that that song is just five guys.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Because the original is its own thing.
Marc:It's a studio thing.
Marc:But the live version on Get Your Yaya's Out is pretty astounding.
Marc:But then just to hear them do it, just basic fucking rock.
Marc:And it's just so big.
Guest:One time, I think it was in the 90s.
Guest:Yelling, like yelling at you.
Guest:They're great.
Guest:Well, I appreciate your enthusiasm and I share it.
Guest:There's one time we were recording Bridges to Babylon in the 90s, mid 90s.
Guest:We were over in Hollywood at what's now East West Studios.
Guest:And it's a big room, Studio One.
Guest:It's where Sinatra recorded with big orchestras and everything.
Yeah.
Guest:Mick and Keith and Charlie were alone in the room.
Guest:Everyone else was on dinner break.
Guest:And I walked in to tell them something.
Guest:And these three guys, their personalities so far exceed the boundaries of their skin that the room was full with the three of them standing.
Guest:The person, if you could view the, if there was a charisma camera, they're like, remember when they used to have those blow-up dolls on the stage that were like five stories high?
Guest:That's who they are.
Guest:Right, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And they have to contain that in the normal body.
Guest:But they're just, they're larger than life cats.
Guest:And when they play together, there's nothing like it.
Marc:You also did David Crosby records, Willie Nelson records, Chris Christopherson.
Marc:So you work all angles of all types.
Marc:Yeah, it's just a couple kinds of music, man.
Marc:But like Waddy Wachtell's always around.
Marc:Yeah, Waddy's right, yeah.
Marc:And then there's a few other guys that are always around.
Marc:Like the David Crosby record, how is that working with him?
Marc:Oh, I love David.
Marc:He's been over here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think he would have moved in.
Marc:trying to sell them the house i got a deal for you david and i'm glad you're doing this thing with blue note it was great talking to you it's been a real pleasure do we cut do we cover enough i i feel confident about that
Marc:Yeah, could work on that Blake Mills album, too.
Marc:Oh, thank you, yeah, Blake, he's a brilliant kid, and it's a real honor to play bass on that.
Marc:He's got good sound, man, he can do, like he's one of those wizard kids, where you're like, oh my God, it's from outer space, this guy.
Marc:He's gonna be around for a while, yeah.
Marc:It's interesting, though, because he's got a great sense as a producer himself, right?
Marc:And he's got a great feel for a guitar, and he plays amazingly well, but he seems to really be excelling as a producer.
Guest:He's got a real sense of color.
Guest:He paints an impressionistic canvas.
Guest:It's really hard to do because so much has been done already.
Guest:And there's so many electronic ways of getting to sounds that to come up with something fresh that's not just sound for the sake of sound, but is actually contributing emotionally to the record.
Guest:And he's great at that.
Marc:He's an analog cat.
Marc:He likes the old toys.
Marc:I talked to Neil Young.
Marc:Neil Young literally gets on stage with an amp rig where he doesn't know if it's going to make it through the show and that drives him.
Guest:No, there's a whole lot to be said for that.
Guest:There's just something about old gear in general.
Guest:Certainly, if you're talking about real instruments,
Guest:I just got a... Carlene Carter gave me a 1967 Fender Jazz that belonged to her dad, Carl Smith.
Guest:And it's been sitting around since like pristine new.
Guest:But the wood has aged since 1967.
Guest:And there's nothing...
Guest:like old wood.
Guest:You cannot manufacture what that does to the sound, even on an electric instrument.
Guest:So this is just the greatest bass I've ever played.
Guest:Wow, man.
Guest:I've been using it on everything.
Guest:I always played Precisions for years.
Guest:I said, well, I play Precisions.
Guest:It's a jazz bass.
Guest:I left it sitting.
Guest:She gave it to me a few years back.
Guest:This year I pulled it out and we're in Super Bowl now.
Guest:yeah it's just the old stuff sounds better i know i like i tend to buy new stuff like that thing that's the only one i got over here but that's like an 86 it's not even that old but that's old now well yeah it's got some patina now yeah yeah i uh years ago um the guys in the fender custom shop uh came up to my house when uh we're doing the stones we do launch and they made a guitar for keith and he and the guy is jay black yeah and he's really good with
Marc:Was this the one that he made exactly off that old blonde telly?
Marc:No, that was later.
Guest:This was just, he made him a guitar, made him a Strat.
Guest:But it was all new looking.
Guest:And Keith said, it's great, but I'm never going to play this thing.
Guest:And I said to him, I said, can't you, like, we had a mic cabinet that was like something I got over at Arte de Mexico.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I'm sure it was two years old, but it looked like it was 300 years old.
Guest:I said, can't you just distress a guitar?
Guest:And the guy came back a couple of years later.
Guest:He said, you gave me the idea for the Fender Relic series.
Guest:So here is Relic number one.
Guest:And he made me a precision bass with all 1963 parts on it.
Guest:And it's really good bass.
Guest:And it says Relic one on it.
Guest:And that was 1993.
Guest:So now it's older.
Guest:And now it's getting its own patina.
Marc:uh-huh and uh so it's not only a relic um manufactured but it's actually got some uh yeah yeah grease on it yeah i don't i don't like i i have not bought a really old thing these amps are that's a that's an original champ there that's like yeah are you playing through the bell and howl
Marc:That's, you know, his... Blake's guy.
Marc:Yeah, Blake's guy.
Marc:That's his.
Marc:He lives around the corner.
Marc:Austin.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Is that his name?
Marc:I don't know the guy's name, but they're really good.
Marc:I have one.
Marc:Blake gave me one.
Marc:That's going to bother me.
Marc:I don't want to... Let's get him, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, get the guy short.
Marc:Is it Austin?
Marc:Austin Hooks.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Austin Hooks.
Marc:Yeah, he lives around the corner.
Marc:And this is the first one.
Marc:This is the prototype.
Marc:I don't know if he knows I still have it.
Marc:But he said, because he would fix, he fucking fixed that old champ for me.
Marc:Or that old deluxe.
Marc:And that's a 65 champ.
Guest:That's beautiful.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But he like, you know, he said, you know, he wanted me to play through one of these.
Marc:So this is like the one his dad made the cabinet.
Marc:And he gave it to me.
Marc:He said, just keep it so I don't sell it.
Marc:So I just had it.
Marc:It's been years now.
Guest:Well, now he's going to know where it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can have it back.
Marc:I don't quite understand it.
Marc:I don't understand how to work it.
Marc:It seems complicated to me.
Marc:You mean like... Well, I mean you plug inside and then there's two plugs, there's two holes, and I don't know what knob means or what.
Marc:I play it sometimes.
Marc:Just mess with it.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I don't do enough messing because every time I mess with someone, I'm like, someone knows how to do this and I don't know.
Guest:All the cool stuff came from having no one around who knew how to do it.
Guest:It really is.
Guest:I listen to Motown records and I knew those guys.
Guest:I got to play with a lot of those guys when I lived in Detroit and they were jazz musicians who were trying to imitate New York R&B records and they got it wrong and they came up with something
Guest:at least as good and as enduring.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But it was because there was no one around to tell them how to do it.
Guest:All right.
Marc:Well, that's inspiring to me.
Marc:I'm not going to be daunted.
Marc:I'm going to go fearless into just playing in my garage by myself.
Marc:All right, Don.
Marc:Good talking to you.
Marc:Pleasure, man.
Marc:So that was Don Was.
Marc:Pretty interesting stuff about the Stones, right?
Marc:How's everybody okay?
Marc:Is everybody okay?
Marc:So I'm going to play a little guitar.
Marc:You all right?
Marc:Everybody all right?
Marc:I'm just going to do some wah-wah and get out, all right?
Marc:So the guy can smear cement on my house.
Marc:Okay, I'll do this.
Marc:I'm going to do it.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Boomer lives!