Episode 878 - Ta-Nehisi Coates

Episode 878 • Released January 3, 2018 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:Alright, let's do this.

00:00:10Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck, buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fuckineers?

00:00:14Marc:What the fuckadelics?

00:00:15Marc:What's happening?

00:00:16Marc:I'm Mark Maron.

00:00:17Marc:This is my podcast.

00:00:19Marc:Welcome to it.

00:00:20Marc:It's called WTF.

00:00:21Marc:Have you been here before?

00:00:23Marc:Welcome back.

00:00:24Marc:How's the new year going?

00:00:25Marc:What day is it?

00:00:27Marc:Is it day four of the new year?

00:00:29Marc:Two days in!

00:00:30Marc:And the guy who is in charge...

00:00:37Marc:of uh planet maintenance just tweets out that he's got a bigger nuclear dick than the korean guy two days in what a fucking colossal global embarrassment we're living through make america great again how about make america irrelevant and sadly dumb again oh my god

00:01:04Marc:Happy New Year.

00:01:06Marc:I hope you're doing okay four days in.

00:01:09Marc:Today on the show, Ta-Nehisi Coates.

00:01:13Marc:I will talk to Ta-Nehisi Coates.

00:01:15Marc:I loved his old book.

00:01:16Marc:I like his new book.

00:01:17Marc:I like his writing.

00:01:19Marc:I'd never met him before, and it was very exciting to talk to him.

00:01:25Marc:I do want to tell you that it was before the big deletion of his Twitter account.

00:01:38Marc:God bless him.

00:01:39Marc:What a hero.

00:01:41Marc:Anyone who deletes their Twitter account is a hero.

00:01:43Marc:So I didn't talk to him about that.

00:01:45Marc:It was before Cornell West attacked the young buck.

00:01:51Marc:for intellectual differences that seemed a little bit misguided.

00:01:58Marc:But out of anything that went on, from what I can tell, it's just the courage to get off fucking Twitter, to pull your name off of the wall of that hellscape.

00:02:10Marc:God bless him.

00:02:12Marc:If you believe in that kind of stuff or good on you, is that good on him?

00:02:17Marc:That's what I say.

00:02:19Marc:Also, you can hear in this interview that the the the roots of it, the the the movement towards the move that he made off of Twitter and and and out of the the sort of.

00:02:31Marc:public spotlight the 24 7 public representation required of people who have uh public relevance uh you can hear the seeds of it in our conversation so that's coming up and also i finished watching darren aronofsky's mother all right yeah i never got so much shit

00:02:54Marc:You know, on this show, really, I think it was unprecedented, which is a word that should be one of the words of the year.

00:03:00Marc:Doubling down unprecedented and getting ahead of it.

00:03:05Marc:Those statements have been used more this year than I've ever heard last year.

00:03:10Marc:Unprecedented.

00:03:11Marc:Can we just switch that with that word when it comes to this administration?

00:03:16Marc:Unprecedented.

00:03:17Marc:Just say it was unprecedented or just say it was fucked up that this happened.

00:03:23Marc:In the modern lexicon, unprecedented means fucked up.

00:03:27Marc:That was fucked up.

00:03:29Marc:You mean unprecedented?

00:03:31Marc:Yeah.

00:03:31Marc:Yeah, fucked up.

00:03:33Marc:So, oh, but I got a lot of pushback because when I set up the Darren Aronofsky,

00:03:41Marc:interview i told i i promised him that i would finish the movie by the time i posted the interview and i didn't because they have fucking time but i finished it i watched the whole goddamn thing from the beginning again straight through and i don't know what happened to me i do not know what happened to me by exposing myself to that film something happened something came at me something fuck with my head but i'm not sure exactly what it was

00:04:05Marc:And I don't know that it would have been necessarily relevant to the conversation without spoilers.

00:04:11Marc:Maybe I would ask him about some nuanced things, some little things in it and watching it straight through all the way through without stopping or pausing it on a relatively big screen.

00:04:22Marc:Uh, having watched part of it and then rewatch that part again and have it knowing that it's an allegory though.

00:04:28Marc:I'm not great with allegories.

00:04:30Marc:It was fairly complicated allegory.

00:04:33Marc:And I,

00:04:35Marc:All I can say is it does seem to be, I don't want to simplify it, but yeah, relationships can suck sometimes.

00:04:43Marc:And it's 90% of the time it's the dude's fault.

00:04:49Marc:I don't know if that number is right.

00:04:51Marc:And I'm sure that's not the allegory that Mr. Aronofsky was looking for.

00:04:55Marc:Like, yeah, yeah.

00:04:58Marc:Relationships can be difficult.

00:04:59Marc:Yeah.

00:05:00Marc:Is that what mother's about?

00:05:01Marc:Is that is that did I miss something?

00:05:03Marc:Is it really just about, you know, don't date an artist?

00:05:07Marc:Is that the allegory?

00:05:08Marc:Was that is that is that what mother is about?

00:05:11Marc:Because if you simplify it, it's sort of like, hey, this is there.

00:05:14Marc:Make sure you notice the red flags, you know, when your floors are bleeding.

00:05:19Marc:And he's not paying attention to you.

00:05:22Marc:And he's let an entire, he's let a thousand strangers into the house.

00:05:27Marc:You know, don't let it go too far.

00:05:31Marc:Be careful when they're having public executions in your living room that maybe it's not good to date a poet.

00:05:39Marc:There you go.

00:05:40Marc:See, now, even that could be seen as a spoiler, but I don't know how many of you are going to see it.

00:05:44Marc:But that shouldn't be a spoiler.

00:05:46Marc:There's no way to spoil the movie, Mother, because it's so fucking out there.

00:05:50Marc:And I didn't think it was a bad movie.

00:05:52Marc:A lot of people were mad.

00:05:53Marc:They were viscerally mad at the film Mother.

00:05:57Marc:And I wasn't.

00:05:58Marc:I thought it was a very ambitious, a very big film, a very visually stunning and exciting movie to watch all the way through.

00:06:09Marc:And if you have any sort of

00:06:12Marc:experience with experimental theater or experimental film.

00:06:17Marc:It shouldn't have been that jarring for you in the sense of like, hey, what's going on here?

00:06:21Marc:It's like, well, just shut up.

00:06:23Marc:You know, sometimes you got to let art flow over you.

00:06:26Marc:As William Hertz character said in The Big Chill, I'm paraphrasing.

00:06:30Marc:You just have to, you know, let it happen.

00:06:32Marc:As I said, it was very complicated, and so many little elements seemed to be very deliberate.

00:06:38Marc:There was nothing in that film that wasn't deliberate, all the way down to anything that happened.

00:06:43Marc:It didn't seem like there was any room for spontaneity, even though there seemed to be a tremendous amount of room for chaos, but it just seemed that everything was loaded up.

00:06:52Marc:So on that level...

00:06:55Marc:I think you could get aggravated in that.

00:06:57Marc:What could that mean?

00:06:58Marc:How do I decode this?

00:07:00Marc:So you got to watch that thing, but I'm going to have to maybe talk to Darren privately to figure out just exactly, you know, why the floor had a bloody hole in it so many times.

00:07:11Marc:And what was up with that?

00:07:13Marc:Was it ghosts?

00:07:14Marc:Were there ghosts?

00:07:16Marc:Was it something that's always happened in setting up a home?

00:07:20Marc:Is there like there's so many provocative things that, you know, I don't know.

00:07:24Marc:I have to assume that he knew what they meant in order to put them in there so intentionally.

00:07:29Marc:But I will not dismiss it.

00:07:32Marc:And I take issue, I think, with people that just outwardly dismissed the film Mother.

00:07:39Marc:It's a stunning film.

00:07:41Marc:It's a bold film.

00:07:43Marc:It's a brain fucker.

00:07:47Marc:And I think if you're looking to make sense, if you're looking for it to make sense, you're going in with the wrong expectation.

00:07:53Marc:So there, I watched it.

00:07:55Marc:If Darren Aronofsky is not mad at me for not having watched it when I set him up on this show, then I will talk to him about it and I'll get back to you.

00:08:05Marc:I'll get back to you about what we talked about.

00:08:08Marc:So this morning, I'd like to say that...

00:08:12Marc:I don't know what to tell you, man.

00:08:13Marc:You know, East Coast, you know, we got, you know, our state, I think, is still on fire.

00:08:18Marc:And it seems like some of you guys are, you might get frozen.

00:08:21Marc:And that's not even a joke.

00:08:22Marc:I don't even mean to tinge that with a tone of silliness.

00:08:26Marc:It's fucking going to be crazy the next few days on the East Coast.

00:08:29Marc:And be careful.

00:08:31Marc:Do not get frostbite on your face just because you went out to get the mail.

00:08:36Marc:Holy shit.

00:08:38Marc:Holy shit.

00:08:40Marc:Yeah, let's just deregulate everything and let the plundering begin because clearly there's no planetary problems.

00:08:48Marc:Some guy's going to freeze on his way to his car.

00:08:51Marc:Some guy's going to be scraping his windshield and just, they're going to find him frozen.

00:08:56Marc:Scraping his windshield.

00:08:58Marc:But no, it's, you know, this is normal.

00:09:00Marc:This is normal.

00:09:01Marc:This is part of a cycle.

00:09:02Marc:Hannity says it's a cycle.

00:09:05Marc:Happens every once in a while.

00:09:07Marc:It was once as cold before, one time.

00:09:10Marc:Hannity says it's all right.

00:09:13Marc:Hannity says.

00:09:15Marc:That's my new hook.

00:09:18Marc:fuck it all right so i have ton assy coats here uh a conversation i had with him and as i said earlier on this was uh this was uh this conversation was had before he took the uh beautifully courageous move of uh ejecting from uh the twitter hellscape uh so this is me

00:09:39Marc:Talking to Ta-Nehisi Coates, his new book is called We Were Eight Years in Power, An American Tragedy.

00:09:45Marc:It's a collection of essays written over the course of the Obama presidency and the first year of the Trump administration.

00:09:51Marc:You know, I'm enjoying reading the new book.

00:09:54Marc:I've not gotten all the way through it, but I loved Between the World and Me.

00:09:59Marc:It just opened my mind up to an empathy that I couldn't have understood because there was no way for me to know.

00:10:07Marc:personally, and I talked to him about that, but I thought that was a beautifully poetic book.

00:10:13Marc:So this is me and Ta-Nehisi Coates here in the garage.

00:10:20... ...

00:10:24Marc:Yeah, I that's how I started interviewing people had a pure desperation and need to to do something with my life.

00:10:31Marc:Huh?

00:10:31Marc:Yeah.

00:10:32Marc:Why are you looking into it?

00:10:33Guest:No No, I am one of the unfortunate things about the kind of career transition I've had from From journalists to whatever the fuck this is right now Well, what is it?

00:10:51Guest:I don't know.

00:10:52Guest:You don't know?

00:10:53Guest:But I used to ask all the questions.

00:10:55Guest:People didn't ask me questions.

00:10:56Guest:I used to ask all the questions.

00:10:57Guest:Right.

00:10:58Guest:And I liked that a lot.

00:11:00Marc:Yeah, it's a better position to be in.

00:11:02Guest:It is a much better position to be in.

00:11:04Marc:Yeah, because then you don't have to repeat yourself.

00:11:06Marc:Nope.

00:11:07Marc:You don't have to feel like there's a lot in the balance.

00:11:10Guest:You're always learning things.

00:11:12Marc:Right.

00:11:13Marc:But the one thing about talking to people about yourself is occasionally you come upon something like, I'd forgotten about that.

00:11:20Guest:That is true.

00:11:21Guest:No, that does happen, but the person has to be good most of the time, yeah.

00:11:24Marc:That's right.

00:11:25Marc:Yeah, but you think out loud, but I can tell from reading your work, you're a very poetic and thoughtful writer, that you work out a lot of this stuff on the page.

00:11:35Guest:I do.

00:11:35Marc:Right.

00:11:36Marc:I can see it.

00:11:37Marc:Yeah.

00:11:37Marc:But when you talk, for me, I'm the opposite.

00:11:40Marc:If I talk, you get me talking, then I'll have moments where I'm like, oh, that's pretty good.

00:11:45Guest:Yeah, that happens occasionally.

00:11:46Guest:That happens occasionally.

00:11:47Marc:we think it through in conversation yeah yeah yeah but mostly no for me it's the page you're right well that's the relationship right yeah that doesn't happen in comedy does it what that uh like you hit upon something on stage oh all the time that's why well that's how I do it you know that's the only way I can do it it's in what I've grown to realize about it because some dudes write jokes some dudes write bits right

00:12:09Marc:But I almost need to, I go up there with an idea that I know is funny, but I don't know how it becomes funnier.

00:12:15Marc:So if I go up with the idea that's funny enough, then maybe in that moment where I'm like, shit, you know, I got to make it like that moment where you're like, can I take it one step funnier?

00:12:25Marc:It has to be delivered to me up there.

00:12:27Marc:Almost like I corner myself.

00:12:29Got it.

00:12:30Marc:to get out of that for that moment and you don't know what it's going to be but that's how you know you get the brain will take it i so you're not writing it down well i do it through memory you know i do it through repetition so like you know it's sort of like i i don't know why i do it that way but i write my i wrote my books like that and i'm i'm not really a writer but it starts with and i worked with christopher jackson

00:12:51Guest:Yeah, of course.

00:12:53Guest:That's my man.

00:12:54Marc:He's a great guy.

00:12:55Marc:Yeah.

00:12:56Marc:If I hadn't had him for the last book, and I don't like to write books.

00:13:00Marc:I didn't want to write the last book.

00:13:02Marc:But Attempting Normal is that.

00:13:05Marc:They wanted 60,000 words.

00:13:07Marc:I had a bunch of transcripts of things I'd said.

00:13:10Marc:I'd put some essays together.

00:13:12Marc:It was a hodgepodge of shit.

00:13:15Marc:And I'm like, here's 90.

00:13:16Marc:Yeah.

00:13:17Guest:But, you know, I think he does that, though.

00:13:20Guest:He's pulling something together from Prince, I believe.

00:13:23Marc:Oh, really?

00:13:23Guest:Really?

00:13:25Guest:It's like Prince died.

00:13:27Guest:Prince was going to write a book.

00:13:28Guest:I heard that.

00:13:28Guest:I heard he's dead.

00:13:29Guest:Right.

00:13:30Guest:He died.

00:13:31Guest:But he left all of this stuff.

00:13:32Guest:Oh, really?

00:13:33Guest:Yeah, they still want to do the book.

00:13:35Yeah.

00:13:35Marc:I think that it's, it's rare to find an editor that does that kind of work that does real editing that you build a relationship with.

00:13:42Guest:It's hard to get that across to people because, and I have begun to suspect, like, I remember I used to listen to, uh,

00:13:50Guest:people do, like, you know, like, say at the Academy Awards, right?

00:13:54Guest:Right.

00:13:55Guest:And you wait up to see Best Picture.

00:13:57Guest:Yeah.

00:13:58Guest:And whoever wins, and then there are a bunch of people on stage and you have no idea who they are.

00:14:01Guest:Right.

00:14:02Guest:And they thank all these people in the business who say, I could not have done it without this person.

00:14:07Guest:Yeah.

00:14:07Guest:And you're like, what the fuck are you talking about?

00:14:08Guest:You're the thing.

00:14:09Guest:Yeah.

00:14:10Guest:But they're not the thing.

00:14:11Guest:Like, now I can see.

00:14:12Guest:And it's tough to convey, like, when you're working with somebody who's not in the spotlight, like, how much...

00:14:19Guest:They did.

00:14:20Guest:You know what I mean?

00:14:22Marc:Yeah, it's an interesting moment where you know in your heart that someone deserves 25%, 40% of the credit.

00:14:33Marc:That's so true.

00:14:34Guest:That's so true.

00:14:36Marc:And a lot of times they'll let you off the hook.

00:14:38Marc:They're like, that's my job.

00:14:39Marc:I don't need this.

00:14:39Guest:See, Chris doesn't want credit.

00:14:40Marc:Right.

00:14:41Guest:And that's one of the things he's going through right now.

00:14:43Guest:Like, I think what's happening is people are beginning to figure it out.

00:14:46Guest:Because it's not just me.

00:14:47Guest:It's like all these other people, right?

00:14:49Guest:And it's like, huh, maybe we should be...

00:14:50Guest:And so now people are looking to him and that bothers him a little bit.

00:14:57Guest:The people actually can see now.

00:14:59Guest:Like there's some people who like, like they like the shot.

00:15:01Guest:Like I would be like, if I were him, don't talk about me.

00:15:03Guest:I don't want to.

00:15:03Guest:Right.

00:15:04Guest:You know what I mean?

00:15:04Guest:I don't want, because there are things that come with that.

00:15:06Guest:Right.

00:15:07Guest:You know, it's not just credit.

00:15:08Guest:That's not the only thing that comes with it.

00:15:10Marc:And then like it could backfire.

00:15:11Marc:Then all of a sudden people will start dismissing the genius that.

00:15:13Marc:That's true.

00:15:15Marc:You know, it ain't really that guy.

00:15:17Guest:Right, right, right.

00:15:17Guest:It's that guy who didn't want any credit.

00:15:19Guest:Man, you know, I would take that right now.

00:15:21Guest:I would take that.

00:15:22Guest:He would not take that.

00:15:23Guest:I would take that right now.

00:15:24Guest:You need a rest?

00:15:25Guest:Yeah, I would take it in a minute.

00:15:26Guest:I said, yeah, it was all him.

00:15:28Marc:Well, I mean, it's, but that relationship is, well, how does it work with you guys?

00:15:33Marc:I mean, because you put together, did you put together all, is all the books with him?

00:15:38Marc:Mm-hmm, all three of them are with him.

00:15:39Marc:Oh, really?

00:15:40Guest:And I mean, he is in every case he was there from inception.

00:15:44Guest:It has never been a case where I was like, here's a book.

00:15:49Marc:So you had like you had the deal in place and then you sat down to talk with him about how you were going to put together.

00:15:54Guest:We had to deal in place, in fact.

00:15:56Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:15:56Guest:First thing I started with Chris in 2000 and I had two, three, something like that.

00:16:02Guest:From where?

00:16:03Marc:How did he know you?

00:16:04Marc:From the Atlantic?

00:16:05Guest:Well, no, it was way, way before that.

00:16:07Guest:It's crazy.

00:16:08Guest:It's been a long time, man.

00:16:10Guest:I got an agent in New York, and the agent said to me, there's a guy, Chris Jackson, and this was probably like 2001.

00:16:18Guest:so he wasn't even at where at uh random house no no uh nope i don't i don't know i guess he would have been crowned oh really and this is like i don't know 16 17 years ago you guys about the same age or is he older yeah slightly older yeah not much but a few years older right so he was still a relatively young editor at that time and um she said you know you should meet this guy and you should also write a book proposal so i wrote a book proposal for a dumb idea

00:16:43Marc:What was that?

00:16:45Marc:Come on, do it.

00:16:46Marc:It's the early days.

00:16:47Guest:I grew up and I was enthralled with these guys like Peter Garal.

00:16:51Guest:Nick, you ever read him?

00:16:51Marc:Sure, the music writer?

00:16:53Guest:Yeah, he did this book, Sweet Soul Music.

00:16:56Guest:I love those histories.

00:16:59Marc:He did Elvis.

00:17:01Guest:Did he do the Robert Johnson book too?

00:17:03Guest:He might have.

00:17:04Guest:He might have done Robert Johnson too.

00:17:05Marc:A smaller book.

00:17:06Marc:The Elvis book is like a massive book.

00:17:08Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:17:08Guest:And it might be two volumes.

00:17:10Guest:It might be two volumes, I think.

00:17:12Guest:He has a lot of Elvis.

00:17:13Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:17:14Guest:I think it's two volumes.

00:17:15Guest:So he wrote a book about... He wrote a soul music book.

00:17:18Guest:It's incredible.

00:17:18Guest:It's a book, Sweet Soul Music, that I really loved.

00:17:21Guest:And there are other people who've done books like that.

00:17:23Guest:This dude, Robert Palmer, this book, Deep Blues, that I love.

00:17:26Guest:And I wanted to do something like that.

00:17:28Guest:That was a huge influence on me.

00:17:30Guest:At the time, I was writing a lot about music.

00:17:32Guest:So I wanted to do something like that for hip hop.

00:17:34Guest:And I wrote a proposal for it, which wasn't very good.

00:17:38Guest:And I was not capable of the right of doing it at the time.

00:17:41Marc:It's a lot to manage, a history.

00:17:43Guest:It's a lot.

00:17:43Guest:And Chris knew it, so he declined it along with everybody else.

00:17:47Guest:But Gloria was like, but you still should meet this guy.

00:17:49Guest:And at this point, I was struggling.

00:17:50Guest:I had no idea.

00:17:51Marc:How old were you?

00:17:53Guest:I would have been 26, 27, something like that.

00:17:55Marc:So this is, you didn't have, you weren't, what were you doing?

00:18:00Guest:Uh, I was freelance writing and if I made $5,000 in a year, that was a great year.

00:18:06Marc:So you were really, you didn't know what you're going to do.

00:18:09Guest:No, no, no, no.

00:18:09Guest:I mean, all I had was writing.

00:18:11Guest:That was all I knew how to do.

00:18:12Guest:You know, I dropped out of college.

00:18:13Guest:I had a one-year-old son and I had a wife who basically was my, you know, my girlfriend at the time.

00:18:20Guest:She was working and making most of the money and I had no ability to contribute anything really in terms of finances.

00:18:27Marc:So you didn't feel great.

00:18:29Marc:I felt horrible.

00:18:31Marc:I felt horrible, man.

00:18:32Marc:How are you going to turn this around?

00:18:34Guest:I often want to write about what happens when people come to New York to strike it big or to see their dreams.

00:18:41Guest:And that first year when New York just runs over you and you got to get it figured out.

00:18:45Guest:And that is an ugly period.

00:18:47Marc:Yeah.

00:18:48Marc:If anyone goes anywhere, because it's here too, LA too, right?

00:18:55Marc:Not many people are going to St.

00:18:56Marc:Louis.

00:18:58Yeah.

00:18:58Marc:yeah right i'm gonna make it i'm gonna make it big in st louis but but yeah because you don't know what you're looking for you don't know how it works right if you're and if you're going in blind really with one guy's phone number right you don't know what that means and you're hanging everything on that phone number right right right right and that was how it was right that was how it was that was how i came in and so we um

00:19:22Guest:So after the proposal got declined, I was like, geez, I don't know what I'm going to do.

00:19:28Guest:And she was like, you should sit and talk with him, though.

00:19:31Guest:Y'all should meet him.

00:19:32Guest:I know he said no, but you should actually sit and talk with him.

00:19:35Guest:So we did.

00:19:36Guest:We had lunch, and I started talking about my dad.

00:19:39Guest:And he said, well, there might be a book there.

00:19:41Guest:And that eventually, years later, became my first book, Beautiful Struggle.

00:19:45Guest:Right.

00:19:46Guest:And we put a lot of work into that.

00:19:49Marc:So that relationship became like a friendship and editorial relationship?

00:19:53Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:53Marc:Because that was like, what, four years putting that book together?

00:19:56Guest:Yeah, basically.

00:19:57Guest:And from idea to proposal.

00:19:59Guest:And writing a proposal was the hardest thing in the world.

00:20:01Guest:It's the worst.

00:20:01Guest:My God.

00:20:01Guest:Oh, it was terrible.

00:20:03Guest:It was terrible.

00:20:03Marc:What did you have to do?

00:20:04Marc:Pitch the book, then write a chapter or two?

00:20:06Guest:It was writing a chapter that was hard.

00:20:08Guest:And that was such a crucial point in my life.

00:20:11Guest:I could hear the writer I wanted it to become, and I knew what it sounded like, and I could not do it.

00:20:18Marc:What did it sound like?

00:20:19Guest:It sounded a lot like I am now, honestly.

00:20:22Guest:It sounded a lot like Between the World and Me.

00:20:23Guest:It didn't even sound like Beautiful Struggle.

00:20:25Guest:It sounded a lot like Between the World and Me.

00:20:27Marc:So it's sort of an incisive mixture of reporting and poetry.

00:20:31Guest:There you go.

00:20:31Guest:And I knew that.

00:20:32Guest:And I knew that.

00:20:33Guest:And I knew that.

00:20:33Guest:I had been a reporter early on while I was in college.

00:20:37Guest:I had been a poet early.

00:20:38Guest:I was thinking about getting my MFA in poetry.

00:20:41Guest:I loved history.

00:20:42Guest:All of that was in there.

00:20:44Guest:I knew that I wanted to be able to pull from all sorts of, from pop culture to wherever.

00:20:49Guest:I wanted to be able to pull on whatever I thought was interesting.

00:20:52Guest:And it just wasn't meshing.

00:20:54Guest:And I was trying to write it.

00:20:56Guest:And this is the thing.

00:20:58Guest:I always tell young writers that

00:21:00Guest:I know it may not be where you want it to be, but you have to do the thing anyway.

00:21:06Guest:You have to put it on the page.

00:21:07Guest:You have to go through that frustration.

00:21:08Guest:Sure.

00:21:09Guest:And even if it's not quite measuring up, like you got to turn it in.

00:21:11Guest:You got to send it.

00:21:14Guest:You must.

00:21:15Guest:You got to finish it.

00:21:16Guest:Yeah, you got to finish.

00:21:17Guest:You got to do the best you can.

00:21:18Guest:And then when I turned it was the best I could.

00:21:21Guest:I didn't like it at all.

00:21:22Marc:Your first book.

00:21:23Guest:First book.

00:21:24Guest:Well, what was it?

00:21:25Guest:For that first chapter.

00:21:26Marc:Yeah, for the proposal.

00:21:28Marc:But usually when you're in that mode and you got that opportunity and you want to write a certain way, but you're not writing a certain way, did you find yourself writing like somebody else?

00:21:37Marc:Could you identify what was happening on the page that you had to change?

00:21:41Marc:You just didn't feel it.

00:21:42Guest:i just didn't i just didn't feel it yeah yeah i just didn't feel it and but you know what i did so but i got the contract somehow anyway you know he said okay yeah i think this works and i got the contract and when i went to write the book um

00:21:57Guest:I reread the first chapter of E.L.

00:21:59Guest:Doctorow's Ragtime.

00:22:01Marc:Really?

00:22:01Guest:Yeah.

00:22:02Guest:And I was like, I think it's kind of like this.

00:22:05Marc:That was the book.

00:22:06Guest:Yeah.

00:22:07Marc:That was the model.

00:22:08Guest:Yeah.

00:22:08Guest:And then Ragtime begins with him just talking about where his family, the character's family lived, you know, in New Jersey.

00:22:14Guest:And I tried to do that about West Baltimore.

00:22:17Guest:Like I said, okay, I'm just going to write, here's where I live.

00:22:19Marc:Right, and that was from the point of view of the piano player?

00:22:22Guest:No, it's not clear who's talking.

00:22:26Guest:It's not clear who the narrator is, but it starts with the family, little brother, younger brother, mother, father.

00:22:33Guest:It just starts with different... So I said, okay, I'm just going to start with... I grew up, and when I was nine years old, I lived in this house, West Baltimore, and I'm just going to do that.

00:22:42Guest:And I was like, oh...

00:22:43Guest:That feels easy.

00:22:44Guest:But of course, as it happens, whenever something, that's not the actual beginning though.

00:22:48Guest:So I did that and that got me writing.

00:22:49Guest:Yeah.

00:22:50Guest:But what happened was I wrote my way into the beginning and then ended up lopping all of that off.

00:22:55Marc:Off, totally.

00:22:55Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:56Guest:But you need that.

00:22:57Guest:Sure.

00:22:58Guest:You need that.

00:22:58Marc:You got to get yourself into the environment, get yourself into the place again.

00:23:02Marc:And then all of a sudden, as you move through the words, you're like, ah, there's the beginning.

00:23:06Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:23:07Guest:And that's what happened.

00:23:07Guest:And that happens so much.

00:23:09Marc:Yeah.

00:23:10Marc:The discovery.

00:23:10Marc:Yeah.

00:23:10Guest:But you don't know it when you're young, and so you think you're wasting your time, but you're not.

00:23:16Marc:And also, I think when you're young, some part of you thinks of it as a business.

00:23:20Guest:That's right.

00:23:21Marc:Right?

00:23:22Marc:That's right.

00:23:22Marc:You know, there's money.

00:23:23Marc:I got to make a book that sells books.

00:23:26Marc:I think there's two kinds of people.

00:23:29Marc:They go into it like that, or they go into it like, well, I'm an artist, and I'm never going to.

00:23:33Marc:You know what I mean?

00:23:34Marc:Like, you're not going to get me.

00:23:36Marc:But that's a different world, really.

00:23:37Marc:My buddy's a novelist.

00:23:39Marc:Uh-huh.

00:23:39Marc:And that's a whole different racket in a way than reporting or memoir or essays.

00:23:46Guest:I was prepared for this book to fail, which it did.

00:23:52Guest:But I really, really wanted to succeed.

00:23:54Guest:Most books do, man.

00:23:55Guest:It's a tough racket.

00:23:57Guest:It is what it is.

00:23:58Guest:It is what it is.

00:23:59Guest:I was prepared for this to do nothing.

00:24:03Marc:The first book.

00:24:04Guest:The first book.

00:24:04Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:24:05Guest:So I wasn't hugely disappointed when it didn't.

00:24:08Marc:Well, that's good because, like, if you don't feel like you were where you needed to be, fuck it.

00:24:12Marc:That's the other thing.

00:24:13Marc:You know, like, it's like, all right, it's out there.

00:24:15Marc:You know, I'm not ashamed of it.

00:24:17Marc:Yeah.

00:24:17Marc:No, no, I wasn't.

00:24:17Marc:But I could do better.

00:24:18Marc:I could do better.

00:24:19Marc:Right?

00:24:19Marc:And I got the practice in.

00:24:20Marc:I've been through the thing.

00:24:22Guest:I think what it did, though, was it gave me, like...

00:24:25Guest:legitimacy yeah you write a book and suddenly you're now sure right yeah yeah you got a hardback and then you got a paperback there you go and then they offer you the thousand hardbacks they can't sell right exactly and that's what happened that's exactly what happened you got any you got you want thousand hardbacks why don't you stick those in your garage a buck a piece you want them that's exactly what happened did you take them i did take them

00:24:48Guest:I did take him.

00:24:51Guest:I was proud of that book, man.

00:24:52Guest:Even though it did nothing, I was like, wow.

00:24:54Guest:I was proud of myself actually having written a book.

00:24:56Guest:I was like, I could actually do this.

00:24:58Marc:But did that book must have put your sense of self in perspective?

00:25:02Marc:I mean, that was the type of book that it was.

00:25:04Guest:It made me, I think before then, before that book, I was dogged by this persistent feeling that I was destined for failure.

00:25:15Guest:And I just, I couldn't do anything.

00:25:17Guest:Like I had no ability to match skills.

00:25:20Guest:See, I grew up in this household and really in this neighborhood where it was felt that

00:25:26Guest:There was no model really for somebody screwing up in school, dropping out of college and then becoming something.

00:25:33Guest:Yeah.

00:25:33Guest:Unless you're like a basketball player or like an entertainer, rapper or something like that.

00:25:37Marc:There's no model for, oh, so the idea of like actually getting to college and then putting the time in and then bailing.

00:25:45Guest:No.

00:25:45Marc:It's like this didn't happen.

00:25:47Guest:No.

00:25:47Guest:It doesn't happen.

00:25:48Guest:No, there was no model for that.

00:25:50Marc:You know what I mean?

00:25:51Marc:You were the precedent.

00:25:53Guest:I was.

00:25:54Guest:I was.

00:25:54Guest:And it scared the hell out of my parents and it scared the hell out of me.

00:25:57Marc:Because they didn't know why you didn't finish school?

00:25:59Guest:No, they thought... And not only did they not know, but they knew why I didn't finish school because they had been struggling with me all those years before.

00:26:05Guest:But I think it just...

00:26:08Guest:You know, when you're black and from Baltimore in that period of time... 80s?

00:26:14Guest:Yeah, 80s and early 90s, and people just get lost.

00:26:19Guest:And horrible things happen to people who don't do good at school.

00:26:22Guest:Awful, awful things.

00:26:23Guest:And so...

00:26:25Marc:Because the streets and the... That's it.

00:26:27Marc:It just takes you in.

00:26:28Guest:And it's just lack of opportunity.

00:26:30Guest:What else are you going to end up doing?

00:26:31Marc:You're going to find a hustle.

00:26:34Guest:Right, right, right.

00:26:35Marc:Yeah.

00:26:35Guest:And so... So they were worried about you.

00:26:37Guest:They were worried.

00:26:38Guest:They were worried.

00:26:38Guest:Now, by that point, by the time the book came out, that was not going to happen.

00:26:42Marc:Right.

00:26:43Marc:But by the time you get through four years of college, how many did you do?

00:26:48Guest:Man, I think I was in and out of college for like six years.

00:26:51Marc:So like, I mean, the idea that you were going to come back to the neighborhood and start selling crack was not.

00:26:55Marc:No, I wasn't going to do that.

00:26:56Marc:That wasn't going to happen.

00:26:57Guest:I wasn't going to do that.

00:26:58Guest:But then now you enter into just the sort of disasters that happen to adults, period.

00:27:02Guest:Right.

00:27:03Guest:You know, maybe you become an alcoholic.

00:27:04Guest:Maybe you become a drug addict.

00:27:05Guest:Or a shitty job.

00:27:06Guest:You know, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:27:08Guest:I mean, when I came to New York, I was delivering food.

00:27:11Marc:Yeah, but the alcohol and drug addict, that would have revealed itself before.

00:27:14Guest:I guess it would have.

00:27:15Marc:Yeah, you would have.

00:27:16Guest:I guess it would have.

00:27:16Marc:You weren't destined for that.

00:27:18Marc:You just thought you were destined for failure.

00:27:20Marc:Sadness.

00:27:21Marc:Yeah, a lot of sadness.

00:27:22Marc:The guy who just is delivering food and in his heart he knows he's a genius.

00:27:29Marc:That's the worst character.

00:27:31Guest:The thing is, I didn't know I was in jail.

00:27:32Guest:I didn't have that.

00:27:33Guest:I didn't even have that.

00:27:34Guest:But you know what was cool about that?

00:27:36Guest:The cool thing was I developed a self-esteem out of a couple of really, really hard things.

00:27:44Guest:I knew I was a good father.

00:27:46Guest:And I knew I was a good partner.

00:27:48Guest:I knew I was very, very good.

00:27:50Marc:Those are important things.

00:27:52Guest:Yeah.

00:27:53Guest:To those two people in my life.

00:27:54Guest:But I didn't understand that...

00:27:57Guest:Like how, see there's, like when we think about lying to people or not being good to people, we think about the harm we do to them, but we don't think about the harm we do to ourselves.

00:28:09Guest:Like we're telling ourselves who we are.

00:28:11Guest:And if you lie to people repeatedly,

00:28:15Guest:You can often find it hard to actually trust yourself.

00:28:18Marc:Right.

00:28:19Marc:Oh, like am I trust yourself in a sense?

00:28:21Guest:That's who I am.

00:28:22Guest:I'm a liar.

00:28:23Guest:Right.

00:28:23Guest:I'm a liar.

00:28:24Guest:That's what I do.

00:28:25Guest:So if I, you know, this becomes crucial when it becomes time to make promises to yourself.

00:28:30Marc:Right.

00:28:30Marc:And also like when you live in that, you've insulated yourself into a bunch of relationships that aren't founded in reality.

00:28:36Guest:That's right.

00:28:37Marc:So you're sort of floating.

00:28:38Guest:That's exactly it.

00:28:39Guest:That's exactly it.

00:28:40Guest:So I wasn't floating.

00:28:40Guest:Good.

00:28:41Guest:I wasn't.

00:28:42Guest:Grounded.

00:28:42Guest:Yeah, I didn't have much in terms of money, finances, that.

00:28:45Guest:But I was.

00:28:46Guest:I had a pretty clear relationship with my wife.

00:28:52Guest:I had a pretty clear relationship with my son.

00:28:54Marc:And those are rewarding things.

00:28:56Marc:They are.

00:28:56Marc:And substantial and nurturing and good.

00:28:59Guest:good for the heart and mind they are they are they are yeah and it became crucial much much later when you know i actually did have you know some amount of success yeah uh because i knew who i was right you know i was very very clear on who i was yeah yeah um yeah so that that that stops you from getting away from yourself it's true it's true it's true i mean i you know and i've said this a couple times in interviews but

00:29:22Guest:After, really, after Between the World and Me, I had a new appreciation for athletes and entertainers.

00:29:30Guest:Yeah.

00:29:31Guest:Because for so many of them, it happens young and, you know, I got .00001% of what those guys get.

00:29:43Guest:Yeah.

00:29:44Guest:And it was a struggle for me.

00:29:45Guest:And had I not had that foundation...

00:29:49Guest:And had I been, say, 20, 21, I have no idea who I would have been.

00:29:52Marc:Yeah.

00:29:53Guest:I have no idea who I was.

00:29:54Marc:No, sometimes it's good to take the hits and then, you know, get it when you can handle it.

00:29:58Marc:Yeah.

00:29:58Marc:You know what I mean?

00:29:59Marc:Like, I got it when I was in my mid-40s.

00:30:01Guest:Uh-huh.

00:30:02Guest:And how would you have handled it at 21?

00:30:04Marc:It wouldn't have been good because I was fundamentally insecure.

00:30:08Marc:So I don't really know, you know, what would have happened or whether I was really ready for anything.

00:30:13Marc:You know, like I've seen it happen to people.

00:30:16Marc:You know, a lot of people get it too early.

00:30:17Marc:They go up and then they go down and then they disappear or they fight it out and they come back later.

00:30:23Marc:Like, I mean, I remember when like Bill Burr, Kevin Hart, like they got it and then it didn't happen.

00:30:28Marc:And then they had to go back and then they had to come back again and work.

00:30:31Marc:I don't know if I had to come back again thing.

00:30:33Guest:Yeah.

00:30:34Marc:You know what I mean?

00:30:35Marc:Yeah, I know exactly what you meant.

00:30:37Marc:But it sort of was a very slow build and it happened in a very unorthodox way.

00:30:41Marc:But when did the writing start?

00:30:46Marc:When did you start getting consumed with that?

00:30:48Marc:How old were you?

00:30:49Guest:Always.

00:30:50Guest:I mean, for as long as I can remember.

00:30:51Marc:So when you were a little kid?

00:30:53Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:54Guest:Like, I probably learned to read when I was like four.

00:30:57Marc:Is that normal or is that good?

00:31:00Guest:I've decided that it doesn't much matter because my son learned to read much later.

00:31:04Guest:He actually learned to read when he was seven.

00:31:05Marc:So you're not going to take any points for... No, no, no.

00:31:08Guest:And he reads much quicker than I do.

00:31:09Guest:Yeah.

00:31:09Guest:You know, he learned later.

00:31:11Guest:Yeah.

00:31:11Guest:You know, he's a much better reader.

00:31:13Guest:So I don't think it means... It only means something in the sense that

00:31:17Guest:In terms of like memory, like my memory of myself is always of someone reading.

00:31:22Marc:Well, maybe there was an urgency to it.

00:31:24Guest:Yeah, maybe so.

00:31:25Guest:I mean, I grew up in this household where that was really important.

00:31:27Marc:Yeah.

00:31:29Guest:Where reading and literacy was like a big, big deal.

00:31:32Marc:Oh, because your old man was a he had a press.

00:31:35Guest:Yeah, he did.

00:31:36Guest:He did.

00:31:36Guest:And he was, you know, at that point, a research librarian and he had been reading for as long as he could remember, you know.

00:31:43Guest:And so and my mom was a teacher.

00:31:45Guest:And so obviously it was important.

00:31:46Marc:What grade did she teach?

00:31:47Guest:she taught special ed.

00:31:49Guest:And so a lot of times there would be like combinations of, you know, different levels of students, you know, but she was, they both were just really, really huge in terms of, you know, like, gotta, gotta read, gotta read.

00:32:00Guest:And the good thing about my household was

00:32:02Guest:they weren't dismissive of reading weird things like so it wasn't like oh comic books are not real books yeah like i didn't grow up with that yeah you know or you're reading i read a lot of fantasy when i was a girl you know that's not real you need to go read this oh yeah you're like a fantasy kid i was yeah comic books yeah all of that stuff man i love that stuff as a kid like full on like you're like a full-on nerd guy

00:32:25Guest:I was.

00:32:26Guest:Except I wasn't because I didn't know what that was.

00:32:28Marc:Well, no one knew what it was then.

00:32:29Guest:I didn't know what that was.

00:32:30Guest:In retrospect.

00:32:31Guest:In retrospect, that's what I was.

00:32:33Guest:But there was no group of people like that.

00:32:36Guest:Yeah.

00:32:36Guest:You know what I mean?

00:32:37Guest:And I liked everything else.

00:32:38Guest:Everybody else.

00:32:39Guest:I liked basketball.

00:32:40Guest:I didn't hate sports or anything.

00:32:42Guest:So I didn't really have a...

00:32:44Guest:It was only later when people put a name on it.

00:32:47Marc:Well, back in the day, you had to find those three guys.

00:32:50Marc:Yes.

00:32:51Marc:They're the two guys.

00:32:52Guest:Yes, yes, yes.

00:32:53Marc:It was like there used to be a small huddle.

00:32:55Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:55Marc:It was before it was like a way of being that was like sellable and acceptable.

00:33:01Guest:Well, so for me, it was even worse because there was no one at my school.

00:33:04Guest:Well, you know, it's different though.

00:33:06Guest:Cause like comic, there were a lot of kids that like comic books.

00:33:09Guest:Sure.

00:33:10Guest:There were a lot of young boys that like comic books.

00:33:12Guest:So that was not so isolating.

00:33:14Guest:In terms of fantasy, it was like my older brother and that was it.

00:33:17Guest:But okay.

00:33:18Guest:It was like, this is a weird thing that went into.

00:33:20Marc:And your older brother was into it.

00:33:21Guest:Yeah.

00:33:22Guest:Yeah.

00:33:23Guest:My older brother Malik.

00:33:23Guest:Yeah.

00:33:24Marc:How many brothers, sisters yet?

00:33:25Guest:I have a six total, six total.

00:33:28Guest:You know, I got four brothers, two sisters.

00:33:31Marc:Yeah.

00:33:31Marc:And you have good relationships with everybody.

00:33:33Guest:Yeah, and considerably better than it probably should be on paper.

00:33:40Guest:Why is that?

00:33:40Guest:Well, it's four different mothers, man.

00:33:43Guest:So you would think that would just be the seeds of all sorts of bad shit.

00:33:47Marc:But how did you grow up?

00:33:48Marc:I grew up... Were they everyone around?

00:33:53Guest:Yeah, I mean, basically, yeah.

00:33:55Guest:I grew up with my mom and my dad.

00:33:58Guest:And they had different mothers, but they would come live there at different points.

00:34:01Marc:The other kids.

00:34:02Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:04Marc:Everyone's coming through.

00:34:05Guest:That's exactly.

00:34:06Guest:And the way it worked is if you fucked up at your mom's house, you had to come live with my dad.

00:34:10Guest:I'm sending you to your dad's.

00:34:11Marc:So he accepted the responsibility.

00:34:14Guest:Oh, that was like who he was.

00:34:16Marc:Yeah.

00:34:16Guest:That was like his essence.

00:34:18Guest:That was his identity.

00:34:19Guest:Oh, yeah?

00:34:19Guest:Yeah, you know, I was talking to him one time, you know, so he comes out, you know, he was in the Panther Party and, you know, he had all these, you know, sort of radical associates.

00:34:27Guest:And so folks, you know, coming out of 60s would do things like, you know, disappear from the country and be gone for like 20 years.

00:34:32Guest:He was talking about this one guy, he had gone to Zimbabwe or whatever.

00:34:35Guest:Yeah, right.

00:34:36Guest:And the guy had a kid here that he didn't see for like 18 years.

00:34:39Guest:And so I said to dad, you know, who had had his own troubles.

00:34:42Guest:I said, could that ever have been you?

00:34:44Guest:He said, no, I had to see my kids.

00:34:45Guest:I had to see my kids.

00:34:47Guest:I just don't have that.

00:34:48Guest:Whatever that is that allows you to be a part, I don't have that.

00:34:52Guest:So no, his kids were a huge part of his identity.

00:34:54Marc:Oh, so everybody was always around or he was going out to see them or everyone in the neighborhood?

00:35:00Guest:I think if it were up to him and he had had the space, he would have had them all at the house.

00:35:04Marc:Yeah, with the women, with the mothers?

00:35:06Guest:Probably so with the mothers.

00:35:08Marc:Probably so.

00:35:09Marc:That would be commune.

00:35:12Guest:Yeah, but it was never a thing where it was like, oh shit, I got to deal with my son.

00:35:17Marc:Right.

00:35:17Guest:That was not him.

00:35:18Marc:Well, that's maybe where you picked it up.

00:35:20Guest:Probably so.

00:35:21Marc:Right?

00:35:21Guest:Yeah, probably so.

00:35:22Guest:I mean, what I got from him was...

00:35:26Guest:I mean, it's not even so much that it was a privilege.

00:35:28Guest:It was like a defining part of who you are.

00:35:30Marc:Yeah.

00:35:31Guest:You know, what am I if not father to these kids?

00:35:34Marc:Right.

00:35:35Guest:You know what I mean?

00:35:35Marc:Well, not everybody thinks that way.

00:35:36Marc:No.

00:35:37Marc:And it's sort of astounding when I sort of think about it.

00:35:42Marc:Like, I don't have any kids because I knew I was too selfish and too panicky and, you know.

00:35:47Marc:And I never, I don't know what it was.

00:35:50Guest:It might have changed you, though.

00:35:51Marc:I know.

00:35:52Marc:I hear that.

00:35:53Guest:So I can tell you this.

00:35:56Guest:Before my son was born, I think he actually saved me in many ways.

00:36:00Guest:I think I was very capable of doing a lot of horrible things to myself.

00:36:05Guest:Putting myself in a situation that I should not have been in.

00:36:08Guest:To what end?

00:36:10Marc:Like, what are you talking about?

00:36:11Guest:Go out and do whatever the fuck I want.

00:36:14Guest:Right.

00:36:14Guest:You know what I mean?

00:36:15Marc:But you weren't self-destructive, really, were you?

00:36:17Guest:I wouldn't have thought about it that way, but I think I was open to all sorts of things as a young person.

00:36:24Guest:But Samari was born when I was 24.

00:36:25Guest:And so always in the back of my head was, if something happens to you, it will hurt these people over here.

00:36:34Guest:But absent that, I mean, who knows what I would have done.

00:36:37Guest:At that point, I didn't have regard for myself.

00:36:39Guest:I had much more regard for my son and my wife than I had for myself.

00:36:44Marc:But you didn't hate yourself.

00:36:45Marc:You were just disappointed or something.

00:36:47Guest:No, it's just like if I, you know, okay, whatever.

00:36:49Guest:I mean, it was just like they felt innocent to me.

00:36:51Guest:Yeah.

00:36:51Guest:In a way that I didn't feel innocent to myself.

00:36:53Guest:Right, right.

00:36:54Guest:You know what I mean?

00:36:55Guest:Yeah.

00:36:55Guest:Like they, you know, okay, well, whatever happens to you, that's cool, but you can't hurt them.

00:36:58Guest:I mean, they didn't ask for this.

00:36:59Guest:They didn't ask for you to, you know, go out and do whatever and end up in some sort of situation.

00:37:03Marc:So was it that you were like hard on yourself for not living up to something?

00:37:07Guest:Yeah, that was a huge part of it.

00:37:08Guest:And I just didn't have much...

00:37:12Guest:I don't know.

00:37:13Guest:I didn't have much regard for myself.

00:37:16Guest:I didn't think about, for instance, something bad happening to me in relation to me.

00:37:21Guest:It's only recently that I've started thinking like that.

00:37:23Guest:Yeah?

00:37:24Guest:Yeah.

00:37:24Guest:What do you mean?

00:37:25Guest:I think about what if something happened and all the work that I wanted, all the ideas I have in my head, I don't get to do them.

00:37:31Guest:Oh, that'd be horrible.

00:37:32Marc:Right.

00:37:33Guest:But I didn't have any of that as a young person.

00:37:35Marc:Maybe you had less ideas.

00:37:36Guest:Well, I had the ideas, but I didn't think I was going to get to do them anyway, so who cares?

00:37:41Marc:So I wonder what that is, though.

00:37:43Marc:I mean, your dad seems like he was doing shit.

00:37:48Guest:Yeah, he was.

00:37:49Marc:And your mom?

00:37:50Guest:My mom was on it.

00:37:51Marc:How did your mom handle all those kids of different peoples?

00:37:54Guest:Well, my mom, and it'd be interesting to think about why.

00:37:59Guest:My mom has a tremendous giving spirit.

00:38:01Guest:Yeah.

00:38:02Guest:And she just took it on.

00:38:04Guest:Folks came into the house and she just took it on.

00:38:07Guest:She had a deep, deep commitment to children.

00:38:09Guest:Yeah.

00:38:09Guest:In general.

00:38:10Guest:And that, I think, is reflected in, you know, why she became a special ed teacher.

00:38:13Guest:Sure.

00:38:14Guest:You know, my mom also has this thing, and I don't know why, again.

00:38:18Guest:But for people who seem to be dismissed.

00:38:23Guest:My mom started a scholarship in her mother's name for C students at the school she's at now.

00:38:29Guest:You got to be a C student.

00:38:32Marc:To get this scholarship.

00:38:35Marc:Give the C students, give them a little something.

00:38:37Guest:Yeah, because people overlook C students because she's like, listen, just because you got to see that don't mean you're not filled with potential X, Y, and Z. So the scholarship is for, so you have this thing for people who she feels like don't look good on paper or are dismissed or may not be X, Y, and Z or may not look like X, Y, and Z. And she, I don't know what that is.

00:38:59Guest:I guess it probably reflects something in her own biography.

00:39:01Marc:It's not a bad thing.

00:39:03Guest:No, it's not a bad thing.

00:39:04Guest:It's just interesting to think why.

00:39:05Marc:You shouldn't talk about it like a pathology.

00:39:06Marc:No, no, no.

00:39:07Marc:She's just nice to everybody.

00:39:09Marc:What the hell is our problem?

00:39:11Guest:All these A-stutes around.

00:39:13Guest:It's how these C-stutes.

00:39:16Marc:That's pretty amazing.

00:39:18Yeah.

00:39:18Marc:So what were your comic books when you were a kid?

00:39:21Guest:Oh, man.

00:39:22Guest:I loved Spider-Man and X-Men.

00:39:24Marc:Yeah?

00:39:25Guest:Oh, Jesus Christ.

00:39:26Marc:I read comic books for a little while when I was much older.

00:39:31Marc:I think I liked them for a couple of years, but I didn't do it when I was a kid.

00:39:35Marc:I did it later.

00:39:35Marc:I liked the Swamp Thing and Hellblazer, Sandman.

00:39:40Marc:It was where I came into them.

00:39:41Marc:It was like Hellblazer.

00:39:42Guest:Those are mature comic books.

00:39:44Guest:I know.

00:39:44Marc:Those are not for...

00:39:46Marc:Yeah, I didn't read them as entertainment when I was a kid, but I have a brain.

00:39:49Marc:Either you can lock in or you can't, the comic books.

00:39:51Marc:I don't know.

00:39:51Marc:It's a weird mind that can do it.

00:39:53Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:39:53Marc:Because when I read them, I tend to just move fast, and there's so much art there, but I'm still moving fast.

00:39:59Marc:Right.

00:40:00Marc:I don't notice the art as much as I should.

00:40:01Marc:I don't know why that is.

00:40:03Marc:But I read the narrative, and it's all there.

00:40:04Marc:It's all in front of me, and I know it's going in.

00:40:06Guest:But maybe you are noticing it.

00:40:07Marc:You are, yeah, but there's some of them, especially now, you want to stop and like, holy shit, man, that's nice.

00:40:14Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:40:14Marc:Because you're writing them now, right?

00:40:16Guest:Yeah, I am.

00:40:16Marc:So on some level, that must be the greatest thing in the world.

00:40:22Guest:My inner 12-year-old is blown away.

00:40:26Guest:Just completely fucking blown away.

00:40:28Guest:Yeah.

00:40:29Guest:No, I enjoy it.

00:40:30Guest:I mean, it's like- Black Panther?

00:40:33Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:40:34Guest:It's like playing with toys.

00:40:35Marc:Now, did you kind of... Were you part of reinventing that character or pulling the character off the... No, I think he was pretty well reinvented by the time I got to him.

00:40:47Marc:Had he been running for decades?

00:40:49Guest:He had.

00:40:50Guest:He had been running since the 60s.

00:40:52Guest:And this guy, Christopher Priest, who's a great comic book writer, had really made him cool and hip.

00:41:01Yeah.

00:41:01Guest:So that by the time I got to him, he was pretty well formed.

00:41:05Guest:If anything, I kind of felt like I wanted to go in the other way.

00:41:09Marc:Did you read him when you were a kid?

00:41:11Guest:No, because he didn't have an ongoing when I was a kid.

00:41:14Guest:He just appeared in other people's stuff, so I saw him that way occasionally.

00:41:18Guest:But no, I wanted to go in the other way.

00:41:20Guest:I felt like he had become basically Shaft.

00:41:23Guest:You know what I mean?

00:41:24Guest:He was just a black dude who didn't take shit, whip your ass, da-da-da-da.

00:41:28Guest:And I was more interested in his vulnerabilities and the chinks and the armor and et cetera, that sort of thing.

00:41:37Marc:Were you able to do that?

00:41:39Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:41:40Guest:Yeah?

00:41:40Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:41:41Guest:No, it has been... I just love it.

00:41:46Guest:It's a ball.

00:41:46Guest:Yeah.

00:41:47Guest:And I love it when the script is done and you can see it and it's all come together.

00:41:51Marc:How many have you done as of now?

00:41:54Guest:So I just literally finished my 24th script, but we probably are on number 16, I think, or 17.

00:42:03Guest:I can't remember in terms of what's out.

00:42:06Guest:Yeah.

00:42:06Guest:In terms of what I turned in, I just finished my 24th.

00:42:09Marc:So what compelled you to reassess?

00:42:12Marc:You thought the character was too one-dimensional in a way, a stereotype, maybe.

00:42:17Yeah.

00:42:17Guest:So here's the thing.

00:42:20Guest:There is a thing in the comic books and in pop culture at large where black audiences feel like they want to see a black character who is the badass kicking the shit out of people.

00:42:36Guest:Right.

00:42:36Guest:You know what I mean?

00:42:37Guest:Yeah.

00:42:37Guest:You know, because that comes against the backdrop of a lot of black characters being sort of passive and sidekicks and that sort of thing.

00:42:43Guest:You know, it's the blaxploitation impulse.

00:42:45Guest:Right.

00:42:46Guest:The 70s.

00:42:46Guest:60s, 70s.

00:42:48Guest:And I think like, you know, like I think different, like you probably can see a lot of this.

00:42:54Guest:across the board in terms of ethnic communities.

00:42:56Guest:I know, you know, the Jewish community kind of, you know, has gone through this from time to time where, you know, we don't want to be portrayed like these, you know, accountant dweebs or whatever.

00:43:03Guest:You know, we want, we got tough guys too.

00:43:04Marc:Yeah.

00:43:05Marc:We got some Jewish gangsters.

00:43:06Guest:Right.

00:43:06Guest:Exactly.

00:43:07Guest:Exactly.

00:43:07Guest:That's exactly it though.

00:43:08Guest:That's exactly it.

00:43:09Marc:Some Jewish badasses.

00:43:11Guest:Right, right, right.

00:43:11Guest:And I know Asian American community has gone through that, you know, where this idea of male being, you know, sort of this wimp, you know, the exact same sort of thing.

00:43:19Guest:So I think Black Panther was sort of, at least as he had been written in the last 20 years, was very much a reaction.

00:43:26Guest:Well, that.

00:43:27Guest:Well, actually that.

00:43:27Guest:Hey, here's the badass dude that's going to tell you what the fuck is up.

00:43:32Guest:But that's interesting and entertaining to read.

00:43:36Guest:Yeah.

00:43:37Guest:But I actually think that reaction deprives characters of their humanity.

00:43:44Guest:Like, okay, what if we accepted, yeah, all right, we got some badass, kick-ass people.

00:43:51Guest:You know, yes, we can do that.

00:43:53Guest:Yeah.

00:43:54Guest:And then we proceeded from there.

00:43:55Guest:In other words, not having to prove something to ourselves.

00:43:57Guest:Right.

00:43:57Guest:Not having to model anything.

00:43:59Guest:Not having to say, hey, we got Jewish gangsters.

00:44:00Guest:Yeah.

00:44:01Guest:Like, we just think, yeah, okay, all right, that's true.

00:44:03Guest:Now, what's interesting?

00:44:04Guest:Right.

00:44:05Guest:You know, and this became interesting.

00:44:07Guest:The badassness became the floor as opposed to the goal.

00:44:11Guest:Right.

00:44:11Guest:You know, and then I just felt like that opened me up to being able to ask all sorts of other questions.

00:44:16Guest:Right.

00:44:16Marc:Yeah.

00:44:17Guest:You know?

00:44:17Guest:Yeah.

00:44:18Marc:Like how would this guy handle an emotional situation?

00:44:21Guest:Yeah.

00:44:21Marc:Well, I mean- Personally challenging situation?

00:44:24Guest:Yeah.

00:44:24Guest:I mean, what I think about comic books is what you do when you start writing is you go and you read all the back issues and you get insight.

00:44:30Guest:And I guess actors do the same thing, right?

00:44:31Guest:Like you try to get insight.

00:44:33Guest:Like you take a part in a movie, you try to get your particular insight into this character.

00:44:37Guest:And the insight I found was, okay, this guy was king of this mythical, perfect African kingdom.

00:44:43Guest:Yeah.

00:44:44Yeah.

00:44:45Guest:But he was always going off to fight with the Avengers and do all sorts of shit that kings cannot do.

00:44:51Marc:Didn't want to stay home.

00:44:51Guest:There you go.

00:44:52Guest:That's exactly it.

00:44:53Guest:He had never dated a woman from his home country.

00:44:56Guest:You know what I mean?

00:44:57Guest:And so it came upon me that- What's he avoiding?

00:45:00Guest:Right.

00:45:00Guest:What's he avoiding?

00:45:01Guest:Maybe he don't like being king, actually.

00:45:04Guest:You know what I mean?

00:45:05Guest:Like maybe he actually does not.

00:45:07Guest:And that became interesting to me.

00:45:10Guest:Like maybe he feels a responsibility to be king, but if he had his druthers, this was not what he would be doing.

00:45:17Guest:Uh-huh.

00:45:17Guest:You know, he would be shooting across the universe doing X, Y, and stuff like that.

00:45:20Guest:He wouldn't be here.

00:45:21Guest:You know, being a king is fucking boring.

00:45:23Guest:I mean, you got all these reports you got to sift through and you got to, you know, deal with your ministers.

00:45:27Guest:I mean, come on.

00:45:28Guest:This guy's a superhero.

00:45:29Marc:A lot of responsibility.

00:45:29Guest:He's a superhero.

00:45:30Guest:Yeah, he's a superhero.

00:45:31Guest:You know, he wants to say, sit here and look at your economic reports.

00:45:34Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:45:35Marc:You know what I mean?

00:45:35Marc:Does his kingdom know that he's a superhero?

00:45:38Guest:They do, but those two things are always in conflict.

00:45:41Marc:Right.

00:45:41Guest:They're always in conflict because he's not here.

00:45:44Guest:There are coups that are always, you know, in the comic book, like there are coups that happen because he's not there.

00:45:50Guest:You know, there's always trouble in the kingdom.

00:45:52Marc:But is he not allowed to use his superhero-ness in his kingdom?

00:45:55Guest:He is allowed to use his superhero-ness in his kingdom, but...

00:45:59Guest:Like if you're a king, your loyalty, if you're a king and the only thing that allows you, if your source of your power is only I will beat the shit out of you.

00:46:08Guest:Yeah.

00:46:09Guest:You actually are a weak king.

00:46:10Guest:Right.

00:46:11Guest:Like you have the sources of legitimacy.

00:46:12Marc:Sure.

00:46:13Guest:That are beyond.

00:46:14Guest:Right.

00:46:14Guest:You know what I mean?

00:46:15Guest:You know, just strength, right?

00:46:16Marc:You'll be just a strong man.

00:46:18Guest:Right.

00:46:18Guest:And then you're just a strong man.

00:46:19Guest:That's exactly it.

00:46:20Guest:Yeah.

00:46:20Guest:It was actually a weak form of government.

00:46:23Guest:So it isn't even so much that he couldn't use his superhero power.

00:46:26Guest:It's that how does he inspire loyalty?

00:46:29Marc:Uh-huh.

00:46:30Marc:If he's just an asshole or a bat.

00:46:32Guest:Or if he doesn't like being king.

00:46:34Guest:Like, how do you inspire loyalty to the throne if he doesn't like being king?

00:46:37Marc:Right.

00:46:38Guest:You know?

00:46:38Guest:So these were the thoughts.

00:46:39Guest:These were the thoughts.

00:46:40Guest:Yeah.

00:46:41Guest:And that would be the struggle.

00:46:42Marc:Yeah.

00:46:42Guest:That would be the struggle.

00:46:43Marc:Well, do you see anything in your own life that's like that?

00:46:48Guest:See, that's interesting.

00:46:50Marc:Yeah.

00:46:52Guest:So I started writing Black Panther...

00:46:57Guest:Yup, right about the time Between the World and Me came out.

00:47:00Guest:And it was right about the time that

00:47:06Guest:I began to feel like people were putting a crown on me.

00:47:10Marc:And also with those expectations.

00:47:12Guest:Yes, yes, yes.

00:47:14Guest:That I was not interested in.

00:47:16Guest:And I wouldn't say the occupation of a writer is like a superhero.

00:47:22Guest:But you get to travel quite a bit.

00:47:24Guest:You get to ask interesting questions.

00:47:26Guest:You get to meet all sorts of people.

00:47:30Guest:It's independent.

00:47:31Guest:You decide what's interesting to you.

00:47:33Guest:People don't tell you what you should be doing.

00:47:35Guest:And increasingly, there was a public presence that was saying, you should be doing this.

00:47:43Guest:You should be looking at this.

00:47:44Guest:You should be able to answer this.

00:47:46Guest:And it would be shit that I had no idea about and sometimes no interest in it all.

00:47:51Marc:So you became like, what is the world of those questions?

00:47:55Marc:The world of the questions of race?

00:47:57Guest:They wanted you to become an authority on dealing with- Yeah, that probably was the most troublesome aspect of it, but interesting enough, not even limited to that.

00:48:07Marc:Yeah, like what else?

00:48:08Guest:Not even limited to that.

00:48:10Guest:Ta-Nehisi, you lived for, you're very interested in France.

00:48:14Guest:Can you give us some perspective on the politics of that country?

00:48:17Guest:And so you would say, yes, you should be able to do that because you're interested in it.

00:48:21Guest:You've lived there for a period of time.

00:48:25Guest:But in fact, no.

00:48:26Guest:I've lived in the United States for 40 years.

00:48:29Guest:I've been asking myself these questions about American politics since I was in middle school.

00:48:35Guest:So no, I can't give insight on France like that.

00:48:37Guest:I can't.

00:48:39Guest:I just can't.

00:48:40Guest:You know what I mean?

00:48:41Marc:It's out of your wheelhouse.

00:48:43Guest:Way out of my... It's just something I'm interested in.

00:48:45Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:48:46Guest:You know what I mean?

00:48:46Marc:It's just something, like, almost... Because I read the book, and I think that's when we first started, or we talked on Twitter, because after that book, you went to France.

00:48:56Marc:I don't know what the timeline is, but I know that we were talking about doing this, but you were going to France.

00:49:02Marc:But when I read the book, for me, that book, because of the poetics of it and because of the emotion of it and the connectivity to, you know, yourself...

00:49:13Marc:And, you know, your experience and the thoughts and actions behind it.

00:49:16Marc:Like, I experienced something.

00:49:18Marc:Like, it opened my mind.

00:49:20Marc:Right?

00:49:20Marc:So, you know, but in the sense that, like, it was a personal story.

00:49:24Marc:And when I was reading it, I was like, oh, man, I never thought about that.

00:49:29Marc:But I have an empathy deficit sometimes.

00:49:32Marc:Because I'm a selfish person.

00:49:34Marc:So, like, it's not just about... Like, I talked about this the other day in relation to women, too.

00:49:38Marc:It's that...

00:49:40Marc:When you're selfish or self-involved, you seem to be one of these people that naturally maybe because of your mom.

00:49:48Guest:No, no, no.

00:49:49Guest:I think that it is very... I think...

00:49:55Guest:You can have a kind of declarative sympathy, but I actually think one of the great things that art and journalism do is they can put you there.

00:50:08Guest:So take this post-Weinstein moment we're in right now.

00:50:12Guest:If you had said to me, sexual harassment is a huge problem in the workplace, I would have agreed.

00:50:18Guest:Yeah, that's probably true.

00:50:21Guest:I'm not like, ah, that's not a problem.

00:50:23Guest:I didn't know it was like this.

00:50:25Guest:When you read this, no, this is what actually happened.

00:50:28Guest:These are the stories.

00:50:30Guest:This dude held me down and did X, Y, and Z. I was just trying to go to work, and this dude was telling me I should be wearing tight dresses.

00:50:39Guest:Then it's like, oh.

00:50:44Guest:Sexual harassment is almost like a euphemism for what you're actually... I didn't have that.

00:50:50Marc:expected to to put up with right i didn't i can't say i had that that sort of you know no matter that sensitivity to it no right no no how and how can you right how can you how well that's well that's how i felt when when i read your book about just the simple elements of the black experience just like going on an elevator right whatever like and of course it makes sense and why wouldn't i have thought that well why would i have why would you have

00:51:14Marc:Why would you have?

00:51:14Guest:Why would anyone?

00:51:16Guest:Right.

00:51:16Guest:Unless you're in it and forced to think about it in a particular deep way, you can't.

00:51:25Guest:I mean, you can't.

00:51:26Guest:And as I said, the past month has really, really clarified that.

00:51:30Guest:Because when the book came out, I would get frustrated to some extent with the way masses of white people read the book.

00:51:41Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:51:41Marc:Which is if you're generalizing how.

00:51:44Guest:Yeah.

00:51:45Guest:Like, oh, you're going to interpret this experience for me.

00:51:48Guest:And then, you know, what I really realized again over the past month is, no, somebody does like you do need interpreters.

00:51:57Guest:You do.

00:51:57Guest:That's a valuable role because there are people who will never live in the world that you're living in ever.

00:52:03Guest:Right.

00:52:04Guest:Right.

00:52:04Guest:And what would you have them not know at all?

00:52:07Guest:Is that what you want?

00:52:08Guest:Do you want them to be completely ignorant of that?

00:52:11Guest:I mean, what are you asking for here?

00:52:15Marc:So you're accepting the role of interpreter to some degree?

00:52:23Guest:What is writing if you're not, though?

00:52:25Guest:I mean, even for other black people, you're interpreting.

00:52:29Marc:No, absolutely.

00:52:30Marc:But I guess the thing is, is that you're already doing that.

00:52:34Marc:But because of the nature of the conversation about race, you're put in a position, right?

00:52:42Marc:What is it happening?

00:52:43Marc:Am I doing something?

00:52:44Guest:No, it's just great.

00:52:44Guest:So I'm thinking about it.

00:52:45Guest:But I mean, you are following the natural logic of what I just said.

00:52:49Marc:That you don't want that.

00:52:50Marc:You did the work.

00:52:51Marc:Now you do your part.

00:52:53Marc:That's what I want you to do.

00:52:54Marc:Go over there.

00:52:55Marc:Go over there.

00:52:56Guest:Leave me alone.

00:52:56Marc:You got the book.

00:52:58Guest:Yeah, you're fine.

00:52:59Guest:Get out of here.

00:53:00Marc:Work on it.

00:53:00Guest:Get out of here.

00:53:01Guest:I mean, imagine like you do your stand-up, right?

00:53:04Guest:And you really, like you love your stand-up.

00:53:07Guest:It's not like you're proud of it.

00:53:09Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:53:09Guest:You're proud of it.

00:53:10Guest:Yeah, most of the time.

00:53:12Guest:Well, I mean, let's take one, I don't know, particular tour.

00:53:16Guest:You do one particular act, one particular night.

00:53:18Marc:The last special I did, I liked.

00:53:19Marc:It was the best thing I did.

00:53:20Marc:Okay.

00:53:21Yeah.

00:53:22Guest:What if people repeatedly came to you and asked you to explain it and talk about it?

00:53:30Guest:You know what I mean?

00:53:31Guest:You had to constantly have to discuss it and open it up, tell people what it meant, what they should get from it, how they should watch it.

00:53:41Marc:But that's because you've been chosen as a representative.

00:53:47Guest:Yeah, see, I don't want to do that.

00:53:48Marc:Yeah, I know.

00:53:49Guest:Who the fuck would want to do that?

00:53:50Marc:It should speak for itself.

00:53:52Marc:Right.

00:53:53Marc:You could answer all questions with, did you read the book?

00:53:56Marc:Right, right, right.

00:53:57Marc:I said it.

00:53:58Guest:It's all in there.

00:53:59Guest:Right, right.

00:54:02Guest:But for me, in terms of what I've chosen to write about, whether I like it or not, that's probably not entirely fair.

00:54:09Marc:Yeah.

00:54:10Guest:That's probably not entirely fair.

00:54:11Marc:To have the disposition you have.

00:54:12Guest:No, because some of these folks are coming this first time in their lives.

00:54:15Guest:Yeah.

00:54:15Guest:And it means something to them.

00:54:17Guest:In terms of understanding?

00:54:19Guest:Yeah.

00:54:20Guest:And I'm just trying to, you know, of course you have folks who are insincere, who are just, you know, sort of signaling to each other.

00:54:25Guest:Yeah.

00:54:25Guest:But I think like a cynical, I think it's like cynical to say that's, you know, most of it.

00:54:30Guest:I think you have to, you know, if somebody comes to you and says, this is a genuine thing I'm feeling, then you have to accept it and say, okay, all right.

00:54:37Guest:And here's the other piece of it.

00:54:38Guest:This I knew, but it's worth saying again.

00:54:41Guest:Most writers would kill for an audience.

00:54:43Guest:Yeah.

00:54:45Guest:You know what I mean?

00:54:45Guest:Most writing is completely fucking forgotten.

00:54:48Guest:Yeah.

00:54:48Guest:So you got to be really careful about complaining of the fact that large numbers of people are reading what you do or seeing what you do.

00:54:56Guest:You got to always ask yourself.

00:54:59Guest:You say, okay, that's a problem.

00:55:00Guest:But do you want the other problem?

00:55:02Guest:Yeah.

00:55:03Guest:Because life's a problem.

00:55:04Guest:Life is always a problem.

00:55:05Guest:Right.

00:55:06Guest:And you need to be clear about the problems you want and the problems you don't want.

00:55:11Marc:Right.

00:55:13Marc:And as a writer, you're doing well, and it's nice to have an audience.

00:55:18Marc:But it is sort of like the thing that's kind of mind-blowing that I think that I don't want to accept and that I think most people, entitled people, don't want to accept is

00:55:31Marc:is that moment like you had with Stephen Colbert where it's like... Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

00:55:37Marc:What did you say?

00:55:37Marc:You're looking to me for a hope?

00:55:38Guest:Yeah, why are you talking to me?

00:55:39Guest:Go talk to your pastor, man.

00:55:41Guest:Look at me.

00:55:41Guest:I mean, sir, and I mean that.

00:55:43Guest:What are you talking to me for?

00:55:45Marc:I can't give you hope.

00:55:47Guest:I mean, in that way.

00:55:47Guest:But see, in that way, I do.

00:55:48Guest:Like, I see myself kind of as an artist.

00:55:51Guest:And I don't mean that in a pretentious sort of way.

00:55:54Guest:I see journalism or the kind of journalism I do in that sort of way in the sense that, you know, folks who write in this long form way, they're thinking about presentation and moving things around.

00:56:02Guest:They're trying to affect emotion, da, da, da, da.

00:56:04Guest:How much of that shit do I read that's hopeful to me?

00:56:07Guest:How much of the art that I love, how much of anything does influence me would I describe as inspiring hope?

00:56:14Guest:Very little.

00:56:16Guest:Very little.

00:56:17Guest:I mean, I would describe it as illuminating.

00:56:19Guest:Sure.

00:56:19Guest:You know, enlightening.

00:56:21Guest:Right.

00:56:21Guest:You know what I mean?

00:56:22Guest:Right.

00:56:23Guest:But hope is not a word that I would use for much of what I've consumed.

00:56:29Marc:And so... Do you see a reason?

00:56:30Marc:Is that because...

00:56:32Marc:I don't look for hope in much of anything.

00:56:34Marc:I do look for relief occasionally.

00:56:37Guest:Right.

00:56:37Marc:And I do look to have my mind blown.

00:56:40Marc:Yes.

00:56:41Guest:I look for that.

00:56:42Guest:But truth is relieving to me.

00:56:43Guest:Yeah, truth.

00:56:44Guest:Truth is.

00:56:44Guest:Even if it's not, everything's going to be okay.

00:56:46Guest:It's like, okay, at least I know now.

00:56:47Guest:Now I know.

00:56:49Guest:I'm happy to know.

00:56:50Marc:Well, it's like that thing you said about, like I did, I think we, I was talking to somebody, my producer, about when James Baldwin saying that you should be aware that failure is a distinct possibility.

00:57:02Guest:It is.

00:57:03Guest:It is.

00:57:03Guest:And you should be.

00:57:04Guest:And you got to keep that.

00:57:06Guest:Yeah.

00:57:06Guest:Like, you got to really, really, you know, keep that, you know, eye in your mind.

00:57:10Marc:It's so funny that the sort of American narrative.

00:57:13Guest:That's right.

00:57:14Marc:You know, even the Hollywood narrative, the happy ending.

00:57:17Marc:Right.

00:57:18Marc:And, like, I find myself, you know, even, you know, despite my own intelligence, realizing that, like, this is, you know, because you want relief, man.

00:57:27Marc:Right?

00:57:27Marc:You want relief.

00:57:29Marc:Something's got to give.

00:57:30Marc:Yeah.

00:57:30Marc:And then you realize, like, eh, maybe not.

00:57:32Guest:No, maybe not.

00:57:33Guest:And maybe this is life.

00:57:34Guest:And then you have to, you know, I think your job as any sort of writer, artist, journalist, whatever, is then, you know, try to make something of what's there.

00:57:43Guest:And that's the kind of place I'm in, you know, or where.

00:57:47Guest:But I don't, again, see myself as that different, right?

00:57:53Guest:You know, is it live at the Sunset Strip?

00:57:57Guest:Yeah.

00:57:57Guest:Richard probably talks about burning himself up and all that.

00:57:59Guest:Right.

00:58:00Guest:I love that piece, man.

00:58:01Guest:It's the best.

00:58:02Guest:Oh, my God.

00:58:03Guest:Yeah.

00:58:04Guest:Does it make me hopeful?

00:58:05Guest:Yeah.

00:58:06Guest:Do I watch that and feel now everything's going to be OK?

00:58:10Guest:Or do I feel like there is something about humanity that's being revealed that I'm seeing something I have not seen before?

00:58:18Guest:He was good at that.

00:58:19Guest:And that's what I want to do.

00:58:22Guest:See, that's what I want to do.

00:58:24Guest:I want to show some aspect of humanity that maybe has not been... And that might be something really dark.

00:58:30Marc:Right, but I think you do do that.

00:58:32Marc:I mean, I've only read a couple of the essays in the new book, but after reading the last book, what I think Pryor also balanced was...

00:58:41Marc:you know, an amazing sense of community and acceptance, right, within that community, and then also his own crazy shit.

00:58:51Marc:So, like, you know, he was this kind of, like, disaster moving through a world that somehow took care of him.

00:58:57Guest:Right.

00:58:58Marc:You know, and it was a black world.

00:58:59Guest:Right, right, right.

00:59:00Guest:For most of the time.

00:59:01Guest:Right, right, right.

00:59:02Marc:So, you know, you got this amazing balance of darkness and at least consistency.

00:59:08Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:09Marc:A sort of elevation of the human spirit.

00:59:12Guest:Right, right, right.

00:59:13Marc:Which isn't hope.

00:59:14Guest:Right.

00:59:14Marc:That's the humanity you're talking about.

00:59:16Guest:Right, right, exactly, exactly.

00:59:17Guest:And oftentimes I think...

00:59:20Guest:Like what I'm being asked to do is read a bedtime story to somebody or, you know, again, going back to this because it's the closest thing.

00:59:30Marc:You're probably being asked to make white people feel better.

00:59:33Guest:Yes.

00:59:34Guest:And you know what?

00:59:34Guest:Again, I've become more sympathetic toward that impulse.

00:59:38Guest:Like, again, in this last month, reading this stuff.

00:59:43Guest:I find myself like thinking, not even like, well, what have I done that's that bad?

00:59:49Guest:But I find myself wanting to distinguish myself.

00:59:52Guest:Like not all men, literally not all men.

00:59:54Guest:I mean, I ain't done no shit like that.

00:59:55Guest:Like I found myself, you know what I mean?

00:59:58Guest:And I had actually a conversation with a couple of male friends about this.

01:00:01Guest:We're feeling the same way.

01:00:03Guest:And realizing because of what had happened with me that the last thing you want to do is call up any woman you know and say, please say, I'm not like that.

01:00:12Guest:Please offer me absolution.

01:00:14Guest:Yeah.

01:00:14Guest:Which is what I get a lot of.

01:00:15Guest:Right.

01:00:16Guest:You know, you know, I get a lot of people, you know, come to me.

01:00:18Guest:White people are so fucked up.

01:00:19Guest:White people are so sad things that like I don't even say.

01:00:22Guest:Yeah.

01:00:22Guest:You know what I mean?

01:00:22Guest:Because they want to.

01:00:24Guest:Right.

01:00:24Guest:They read it and they feel like horrible about it.

01:00:28Marc:These are white people saying that.

01:00:29Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:30Guest:And they want to, you know what I mean?

01:00:32Guest:Like distance.

01:00:32Guest:Like, I don't want any part of this, man.

01:00:34Guest:Can I get out of this, please?

01:00:35Guest:I don't want anything to do with this.

01:00:37Marc:What do you say?

01:00:38Marc:Like, nope.

01:00:39Guest:No, I just listen.

01:00:41Guest:I just listen.

01:00:42Guest:Because the fact that it matters, you can't get out of it.

01:00:43Guest:Anymore that I can get out of, you know, what I'm in.

01:00:46Guest:Anymore that I can get out of, you know, being a part of, you know, men and, you know, the shit that men have done.

01:00:50Guest:Like, you can't get out of it.

01:00:51Guest:You're connected to it.

01:00:52Guest:You know what I mean?

01:00:53Guest:Anytime there's a group with power.

01:00:55Guest:Uh-huh.

01:00:56Guest:You know what I mean?

01:00:57Guest:You usually do not have the ability to individually extract yourself, you know, from all of that.

01:01:03Marc:Yeah.

01:01:03Marc:Well, that's what when you came in, I think that's what I was sort of telling you I wanted to do.

01:01:06Guest:Yeah, right.

01:01:07Guest:Like you wanted to get out.

01:01:08Guest:Right.

01:01:08Guest:You want to get out.

01:01:09Guest:I want to get out.

01:01:10Guest:Yeah.

01:01:10Guest:I mean, out.

01:01:11Guest:Right.

01:01:12Guest:Right.

01:01:13Guest:Like what?

01:01:13Guest:Become a fisherman or something?

01:01:15Guest:Yeah.

01:01:15Guest:Yeah, I know.

01:01:16Guest:I know that impulse, man.

01:01:18Marc:Wait, what's your job out there in the off the grid land?

01:01:22Guest:I want to, and I've always wanted to be a taxi driver.

01:01:26Marc:Yeah?

01:01:27Marc:Yeah.

01:01:27Marc:You could probably do that.

01:01:29Guest:I don't think I could.

01:01:30Guest:My wife stopped me from doing it when I had no money.

01:01:33Guest:She wouldn't let me do it even then.

01:01:34Marc:Oh, yeah?

01:01:34Marc:Yeah.

01:01:35Marc:What, because it wasn't safe?

01:01:36Guest:Yeah, that's exactly it.

01:01:37Marc:She was like, it's not safe.

01:01:38Marc:What is it about taxi driving that's compelling?

01:01:41Guest:So when I first came to New York, the one job I had, the consistent money I had was I deliver food.

01:01:47Guest:And I liked that I didn't, I would pick up the food and then I would have to, and it would be for these corporate clients, I would pick it up from this deli and then deliver.

01:01:55Guest:You were a middleman?

01:01:56Guest:Yeah, basically.

01:01:58Guest:But my only responsibility was to get it there at a particular time.

01:02:01Guest:I didn't care how I did it.

01:02:02Guest:I didn't care what I did in between.

01:02:05Guest:It was like over my shoulder.

01:02:06Guest:You know what I mean?

01:02:07Guest:I would cut on sports radio and I would be in my own zone.

01:02:11Guest:And I just had to get the stuff there.

01:02:13Guest:And it felt so free.

01:02:15Guest:You know what I mean?

01:02:16Guest:It just felt free.

01:02:18Marc:It's a simple task.

01:02:19Guest:Yeah.

01:02:19Guest:You know what I mean?

01:02:20Guest:And it wasn't like, fill out this form, do this, do that.

01:02:22Guest:No, no.

01:02:23Guest:Can you just get this here?

01:02:24Marc:yeah oh yeah i was talking to a guy yesterday another comic about when i started out when he started out and all you're doing is you know just thinking about that joke yeah you know you got that thing you know you got to set it you know 10 at night for 10 minutes and the rest of the day is like it's yours man yeah yeah think about that joke yeah and walk around yeah but the truth of the matter is i probably prefer my life right now

01:02:46Marc:No, your life is good.

01:02:48Marc:So what are you doing out here?

01:02:51Guest:Writing.

01:02:52Guest:I wanted to just be away.

01:02:57Marc:Oh, really?

01:02:57Marc:And you wanted to feel the Southern California thing?

01:03:00Guest:No.

01:03:03Guest:This summer, when I had to do the last essay in the book, this essay, The First White President, I was...

01:03:11Guest:Somewhere away and like far, far away, far from New York, not here, but far, far away.

01:03:19Guest:And it was... You don't want to say where you were?

01:03:22Guest:I don't want to say where I was.

01:03:25Guest:My wife told me not to say where I was.

01:03:26Guest:I mean, I'll tell you once the end is over.

01:03:28Guest:But... You went there to write that?

01:03:32Guest:I went there on vacation, actually.

01:03:34Guest:And I was with some friends, and they would go swim in the morning, and they would go swim in the evening.

01:03:39Guest:And I would right through the morning until the afternoon, and I would go swim with them in the afternoon, the evening.

01:03:44Marc:You must have been a wreck.

01:03:46Guest:Man, it was the healthiest time.

01:03:48Marc:Oh, yeah?

01:03:49Guest:I was like, this is supposed to be my life.

01:03:52Guest:This is what's supposed to be.

01:03:54Guest:Like, I feel so natural.

01:03:55Guest:Yeah.

01:03:56Guest:Like, I just feel natural here.

01:03:59Guest:Uh-huh.

01:04:00Guest:And I wanted to, you know, I couldn't reproduce that exactly, but I wanted to get as close as I could to that.

01:04:06Guest:Uh-huh.

01:04:07Guest:You know, and I just, I wanted to clear my head.

01:04:11Guest:I wanted to clear everything.

01:04:12Marc:So, you're down on the beach.

01:04:14Marc:So, is it working?

01:04:15Marc:Is it...

01:04:16Guest:Well, it's only been two days, but yeah.

01:04:18Guest:Yeah.

01:04:18Guest:So far.

01:04:19Guest:Yeah.

01:04:19Guest:And you know, the thing about out here is, I mean, it's a, I don't want to insult anybody, but they can take it.

01:04:26Guest:Let's just say authors do not have the same level of profile here that they do.

01:04:30Guest:And say, New York, just another guy.

01:04:33Guest:Right.

01:04:34Guest:And that's fine with me.

01:04:35Guest:Yeah.

01:04:35Guest:That's so fucking fine with me.

01:04:37Guest:Yeah, you're a star in New York.

01:04:39Guest:Well, I tell you, I wouldn't say all of that, but what I would say is there's a cafe where I wrote almost all of my books where I've been writing since 2004.

01:04:46Guest:In Brooklyn?

01:04:48Guest:In actually uptown in Morningside Heights.

01:04:51Guest:I have been back there, but I should expect to get interrupted if I go there.

01:04:55Marc:Right, you can't work.

01:04:56Guest:I should expect that.

01:04:57Guest:I should expect that that's what's going to happen.

01:04:59Marc:That comes with it.

01:05:00Guest:Yeah, it does.

01:05:01Guest:It does.

01:05:01Guest:That's not going to happen here.

01:05:02Marc:No, no.

01:05:03Guest:You're free here.

01:05:04Guest:You're free amongst everybody.

01:05:05Guest:No one gives a fuck, man.

01:05:07Marc:So how was France?

01:05:08Marc:You were in France for a year?

01:05:10Marc:I was.

01:05:10Marc:Now, what is your relationship with James Baldwin?

01:05:13Marc:I mean, in terms of legacy, in terms of inspiration, in terms of being compared to him?

01:05:19Marc:Because I had Raul Peck in here, and I watched that documentary, and again, it was something I did not know about and the levels at which his brain operated on James Baldwin.

01:05:32Guest:God, you must be learning so much at this period in your life.

01:05:35Marc:Yeah, is that all right?

01:05:36Guest:That's great.

01:05:36Guest:Or is that another way of calling?

01:05:38Marc:No, that's envy.

01:05:39Marc:Is that a way of you saying like, where you been?

01:05:40Marc:Bullshit.

01:05:41Guest:No, bullshit.

01:05:42Guest:It's envy because I feel like maybe there was a point in your life

01:05:46Guest:where you're giving, and I guess you're still doing this because you're performing, but performing is so much out, out, out, out, out, but this is in.

01:05:53Guest:You must be taken in so much.

01:05:55Marc:I do, and I listen to people, and I've always taken things in, but it's always been fragmented and not very disciplined, right?

01:06:01Guest:It's like a job now.

01:06:02Guest:It's a craft.

01:06:03Guest:It's good.

01:06:05Guest:That is awesome.

01:06:06Marc:But to sort of be introduced to him and then to talk to Raul about him and then to realize that the depth of that intellect and that type of intellectual, and he was a public intellectual.

01:06:17Marc:He was.

01:06:17Marc:That when there were public intellectuals that could do the Johnny Carson show.

01:06:22Marc:Right.

01:06:22Marc:Right?

01:06:22Marc:Or the Dick Cavett show.

01:06:23Guest:Right.

01:06:24Marc:And have these, or William F. Buckley.

01:06:28Guest:Right.

01:06:29Marc:that I don't know what part of culture operated at those levels or took that in, but they were mainstream.

01:06:38Marc:And something went away.

01:06:39Marc:That whole urban intellectual 70s.

01:06:44Marc:So I was blown away by his thoughts and disturbed and enlightened.

01:06:52Marc:But as somebody who gets compared to him or seems to be

01:06:57Marc:somewhat in the same type of cultural criticism you know what do you find your relationship to him is well I mean I've been reading Paul since I was in college he is

01:07:10Guest:i mean my favorite american essay is beautiful that thing when we were talking about voice earlier yeah i mean i was aiming for i actually at that point i wasn't aiming for him but that mix of like poetry and history and actually journalism although this gets looked over he does you know quite a bit he you know there's reporting all through state of fire next time you know in fact the last scene is a the you know pivotal scene is actually just a work of journalism um

01:07:38Guest:He's the God.

01:07:39Guest:Yeah.

01:07:39Guest:I mean, he's a God.

01:07:40Guest:I mean, he will have the longest sentences in the world, but you'll be able to follow them.

01:07:46Guest:Yeah.

01:07:47Guest:And it'll just be like a wave.

01:07:50Guest:You know what I mean?

01:07:50Guest:Just sort of underlaying, flowing.

01:07:52Guest:Yeah.

01:07:52Guest:And it's beautiful.

01:07:53Guest:And it'll leave you feeling.

01:07:56Guest:Like I said, see, when I think about Bart, I think about his ability to make me feel.

01:07:59Guest:Yeah.

01:07:59Guest:You know, really, really make me feel to get to it.

01:08:03Guest:And, you know, when I was simply, when I was working on Between the World and Me,

01:08:06Guest:But even before that, but specifically for Between the World and Me, that was what I was aiming for.

01:08:10Guest:Yeah.

01:08:11Guest:You know, I wanted to do what he did.

01:08:13Guest:So any sort of craft-based comparison, which I think is actually the correct comparison.

01:08:19Uh-huh.

01:08:21Guest:I take his high praise.

01:08:23Guest:You know, I take his high praise.

01:08:24Guest:There's no point in me running, you know, from that.

01:08:26Guest:It's true.

01:08:27Guest:I mean, I model myself after.

01:08:28Guest:I read it.

01:08:29Guest:And we all need people that we model ourselves after.

01:08:31Guest:And for me, you know, in terms of my writing, you know, he's the one.

01:08:36Marc:Yeah.

01:08:36Guest:You know, he's the one.

01:08:37Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:08:38Marc:I could see it.

01:08:40Marc:Yeah.

01:08:40Marc:And it's like, you know what was amazing about him as a public personality?

01:08:44Yeah.

01:08:44Marc:The way he could articulate thoughts and then move away from them.

01:08:50Guest:That's right.

01:08:50Marc:And then come back around.

01:08:52Guest:That's exactly it.

01:08:52Marc:Holy shit.

01:08:53Guest:That's exactly it.

01:08:53Guest:And hold the thread.

01:08:55Guest:Right.

01:08:55Guest:Hold the thread.

01:08:56Guest:He's okay.

01:08:57Guest:He's okay.

01:08:58Guest:He may be over here for a second, but he knows where he's going.

01:09:01Guest:Yeah.

01:09:01Guest:And if you ever try to do that as a writer, you can find how quickly you will become lost yourself.

01:09:06Guest:Right.

01:09:06Guest:You know what I mean?

01:09:07Guest:But you're right.

01:09:08Guest:He would hold a thread and it would be elegant.

01:09:10Guest:Unbelievable.

01:09:11Guest:Elegant, like somebody dancing all the way through.

01:09:14Guest:No, and it's not just me, man.

01:09:15Guest:I think any essayist, anybody that writes essays in this period who is not thinking of him,

01:09:24Guest:You're missing out.

01:09:25Guest:I don't know any, you know, black assets who are not somehow, you know, thinking of him.

01:09:30Guest:I mean, it's like a basketball player saying, well, I never thought of Michael Jordan.

01:09:33Marc:Right.

01:09:33Guest:I don't mind myself.

01:09:35Guest:Come on, you're crazy.

01:09:36Marc:Yeah, I'm doing my own thing.

01:09:37Guest:No, you're not.

01:09:39Guest:You're not.

01:09:40Guest:You know, none of us who are in that tradition are doing our own thing, you know.

01:09:43Marc:And what was the time in France like?

01:09:45Marc:I mean... It was great.

01:09:46Guest:I mean, people often make the Baldwin connection there, but that, unless it was something subconscious going on there, I haven't teased out yet.

01:09:51Guest:That was actually my wife.

01:09:52Guest:My wife loves Paris.

01:09:54Guest:Uh-huh.

01:09:55Guest:Where's she from?

01:09:55Guest:She's from Chicago by way of Tennessee, actually.

01:10:01Guest:But she... What'd she do?

01:10:03Guest:She's a med student.

01:10:05Marc:Oh, good.

01:10:06Guest:Second year med student.

01:10:07Guest:Oh, really?

01:10:07Guest:Yeah.

01:10:08Marc:Oh, that's hard, huh?

01:10:09Marc:So you're full on dad responsibilities again.

01:10:11Guest:Well, no, our kid's 17.

01:10:13Guest:So you're not like, you know what I mean?

01:10:15Guest:You only got the one?

01:10:15Guest:You only got the one too.

01:10:17Guest:It was the one she decided that she wanted to, you know, make a career change.

01:10:20Guest:That was the second kid right there.

01:10:21Marc:Wow.

01:10:22Marc:What kind of doctor is she thinking about being?

01:10:23Guest:She's not sure.

01:10:24Guest:She went in thinking OB-GYN, but she goes every which way right now.

01:10:27Guest:It's her prerogative, right?

01:10:29Guest:It is.

01:10:30Guest:It is.

01:10:30Guest:And we'll see where it ends up.

01:10:32Guest:But she had this adoration for Paris and she went for her 30th birthday and she wanted me to go with her.

01:10:39Guest:But I was like, I don't know.

01:10:40Guest:What the hell am I going to go to Paris for?

01:10:41Guest:I mean, this is how I thought.

01:10:43Guest:I wasn't well-traveled at all at that point.

01:10:44Guest:I didn't have an adult passport.

01:10:46Guest:What the fuck am I going to go to Paris for?

01:10:48Guest:What's in Paris?

01:10:48Guest:You know what I mean?

01:10:50Guest:She came back and she was like, you really should go.

01:10:53Guest:You really, really should go.

01:10:55Guest:And I tend to regard her opinion about me rather highly.

01:11:02Guest:So I can't see why I should go, but if she says I should, it's probably correct.

01:11:06Marc:At least you know she understands you.

01:11:09Guest:Yeah.

01:11:10Guest:And so shortly after that,

01:11:13Guest:Well, a little while after I began studying French and we'd always wanted our kid to be bilingual.

01:11:19Guest:And so my son started.

01:11:22Guest:And the only real way to get it is to live a year over there.

01:11:25Guest:I like to actually immerse yourself in it.

01:11:27Marc:So it was really your choice.

01:11:28Marc:You wanted to do something.

01:11:29Guest:I did.

01:11:30Guest:I did.

01:11:30Guest:And I wanted it for him before he left the house.

01:11:32Guest:I wanted him to have- How old was he?

01:11:33Guest:15?

01:11:34Guest:So he went over 14 when we left.

01:11:37Guest:15.

01:11:37Guest:15 when we left.

01:11:38Guest:Did he dig it?

01:11:39Guest:Not for the first three months, and then he didn't want to leave.

01:11:43Guest:Oh, yeah?

01:11:43Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:11:44Guest:It was one of these situations where we got over.

01:11:46Guest:He was supposed to be in his bilingual school.

01:11:48Guest:And when we got there, in fact, it was not bilingual, it was just French.

01:11:51Guest:And he took the train there by himself, took the subway, came home, and was absolutely horrified, was scared out of his mind.

01:11:58Guest:I looked at him, I said, listen to me.

01:12:00Guest:In about three months, you're going to be thankful that no one's speaking English there.

01:12:04Guest:You're going to be like, this is nothing to me.

01:12:06Guest:I'm so glad I did this.

01:12:07Guest:Because that's how you build confidence.

01:12:09Guest:You have to have those fearful moments.

01:12:12Guest:And him being in such a different situation than I was as a child, I've had to intentionally create fearful moments.

01:12:20Guest:Not dangerous moments, not physically, but fearful moments so that he's always pushing, pushing himself and developing a moment.

01:12:27Marc:So you just mildly scared the shit out of your kid his entire life.

01:12:30Guest:I think you got to, man.

01:12:32Guest:If you ain't scared, I mean, if you don't have that in your own life, I feel like that's living.

01:12:40Guest:That's living.

01:12:41Marc:It's good to be a little nervous.

01:12:43Marc:On the edge, right on the edge.

01:12:44Marc:Sure, man.

01:12:45Marc:Yeah, I'm about done with it, but...

01:12:48Marc:I can't seem to get rid of it now.

01:12:51Marc:I can't seem to get rid of that edge.

01:12:52Marc:So, he learned the French.

01:12:54Guest:He's pretty good.

01:12:55Marc:Yeah?

01:12:55Guest:He's pretty good.

01:12:56Marc:And he had a good time.

01:12:56Marc:He ate good food.

01:12:57Guest:He did.

01:12:58Guest:He ate good food.

01:12:58Marc:We all ate good food.

01:12:59Marc:And you did some writing over there?

01:13:01Guest:Did some writing over there, yeah.

01:13:03Marc:What are you working on here?

01:13:03Marc:What are you writing?

01:13:04Marc:Another book?

01:13:05Guest:I am.

01:13:05Marc:You just finished a book.

01:13:06Guest:i did but that was a lot of essays there's a lot of essays and it was mostly written um and then i wrote about a half of it and i have this novel that i've been working on no shit 2000 and actually since i finished the first book since it's a fantasy novel sort of yeah yeah is it funny

01:13:25Guest:uh not very not very so we're how far into it are you uh well i already wrote a draft of it so i'm rewriting right now oh did you give it to christopher for for notes uh he has seen parts of it for notes he had to see parts of it before they gave me a contract for it so uh-huh yeah and they signed off on it

01:13:44Guest:They did.

01:13:45Guest:They did remarkably.

01:13:46Guest:I couldn't believe it.

01:13:48Marc:I know.

01:13:48Marc:Well, that's good.

01:13:49Marc:I'm glad that you're trying something new.

01:13:51Marc:But when you teach, because I know you teach a bit, when you teach journalism in terms of where we are.

01:13:56Marc:Because it seems like right now, real journalism is definitely cranking.

01:14:03Guest:It is.

01:14:04Marc:Right alongside of shitty journalism.

01:14:06Guest:Yeah, but it has a muse in Donald Trump.

01:14:08Marc:That's right.

01:14:09Marc:It woke it up.

01:14:10Guest:Right.

01:14:10Marc:Woke it the fuck up.

01:14:11Guest:Right.

01:14:12Marc:And now more people are sort of like, what's happening?

01:14:15Guest:Yeah.

01:14:16Marc:So when you teach journalism with such that urgency, how are you different in how you teach it?

01:14:21Guest:So I mostly, you know, so right now I'm teaching at the J school and I'm at NYU.

01:14:27Guest:Yeah.

01:14:27Guest:Before that, I was at CUNY and MIT before that.

01:14:31Guest:And I actually focus on writing.

01:14:34Guest:I focus on writing because the kids I get are going to have NYU mostly have reporting experience already.

01:14:41Marc:oh so they got the basics who what when where why there you go who what when where why is that it that's it that's it don't ask me because i didn't take i actually took no journalism courses i love that that you you dropped out of college you're teaching college i always like that story yeah so so that's how that story that's how it ended up that's how it ended up the unprecedented uh you know kid from your neighborhood who drops out of college is now teaching at college

01:15:04Guest:But yeah, no, so I try to teach them like Baldwin taught me.

01:15:10Guest:I try to teach them to try to write with intent, to write with aggression, with ferocity, on edge, in a really, really active way.

01:15:22Guest:Because I think the reporting and the research is the assembly of the information, but it really helps to know how to convey it in a way that people feel it.

01:15:30Marc:And who do you have them read other than Baldwin?

01:15:33Guest:Oh, God, I just finished the syllabus the other day.

01:15:35Marc:Yeah?

01:15:36Guest:Oh, don't start me lying.

01:15:39Guest:Do you know I start off with poetry?

01:15:41Marc:Yeah, well, you have a deep relationship with poetry.

01:15:44Guest:Yeah, I start off with poetry because I want them to understand the efficiency of sentences and the efficiency of words.

01:15:49Marc:Who is your poet?

01:15:52Guest:Robert Hayden is on there.

01:15:55Guest:Colin Foachet is on there.

01:15:58Guest:Mary Baraka is on there.

01:16:01Guest:And then, you know, by the second week, we've actually moved into articles.

01:16:06Guest:I have them read my colleague James Fallows, Caitlin Flanagan, who's at the Atlantic.

01:16:13Guest:I have them read The Great Elizabeth Colbert.

01:16:17Guest:Yeah.

01:16:18Guest:A little bit of Ian Parker, George Orwell.

01:16:23Guest:Orwell, yeah.

01:16:24Guest:Orwell, but I don't have them read 19.

01:16:25Guest:I had them read Politics in the English Language.

01:16:29Guest:That's great.

01:16:29Guest:So we got a good selection.

01:16:30Marc:No Hunter S. Thompson?

01:16:32No.

01:16:32Guest:No, you know, I've never read Hunter Thompson.

01:16:34Guest:Do you know that?

01:16:34Marc:Yeah, that's all right.

01:16:35Guest:No, maybe it's not.

01:16:36Guest:You know, maybe I should.

01:16:37Guest:I mean, he's so influential.

01:16:39Guest:You know what I mean?

01:16:39Guest:There's so many people who, you know.

01:16:40Marc:He could turn a phrase and he was funny.

01:16:42Marc:Could he really?

01:16:42Marc:Sure.

01:16:43Marc:Okay.

01:16:44Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:45Guest:I've heard of that guy.

01:16:46Marc:I would say like, you know, some people would do the, I just, you know, he's a certain type of journalist, but in terms of writing with ferocity, you know, fear and loathing on the campaign trail.

01:16:56Marc:Right.

01:16:57Marc:And, you know, the book of essays, The Generation of Swine in the 80s.

01:17:01Marc:it's good it's it's it's funny i mean and it's you know and it's solid okay and it makes you go like oh yeah fuck yeah yeah but uh maybe not you but me now what did you learn from you know from david carr when he uh like uh because he gave you the first gig y'all never crossed paths did you no i missed him he would have liked you yeah he liked you a lot

01:17:22Guest:He was a heavy cat.

01:17:24Guest:Yeah.

01:17:25Guest:And he likes, and I think because this was his life, he likes people who get the light later.

01:17:30Guest:Yeah.

01:17:31Guest:He always liked that.

01:17:32Guest:He was another guy who likes C students.

01:17:34Guest:Yeah.

01:17:35Guest:The underdog.

01:17:36Guest:Yeah.

01:17:36Guest:He loved that.

01:17:38Guest:Everything.

01:17:39Guest:I learned everything from David.

01:17:40Guest:He learned everything from David.

01:17:41Guest:I had the great fortune of meeting David Carr before he was David Carr, before he was at the New York Times as a recovering alcoholic, recovering drug addict.

01:17:52Marc:Where'd you meet him?

01:17:53Guest:In Washington, D.C., where he was editing an alternative paper to Washington City Paper.

01:17:58Guest:Yeah.

01:17:59Guest:And I was 20 years old and I would read the city paper and they would do these long articles that had the kind of creative mix that we started talking about at the beginning.

01:18:08Guest:Yeah.

01:18:09Guest:And I thought I wanted to do something like that.

01:18:13Guest:And I sent in an application to intern at the Washington City paper and he brought me in.

01:18:20Guest:I had never, ever like this is my first real contact with any amount of white people in mass.

01:18:26Guest:Yeah.

01:18:28Guest:So it was like a different world.

01:18:31Guest:It was a totally, totally different world.

01:18:35Guest:It wasn't traumatic.

01:18:36Guest:I didn't have bad shit happen.

01:18:38Marc:No, they were of the same species.

01:18:40Guest:They were of the same species, as it turned out.

01:18:42Guest:This is what I've been told.

01:18:44Guest:In fact, they are.

01:18:47Guest:In fact, they are.

01:18:48Guest:And David... But I have to say the racial thing was big, actually.

01:18:55Guest:But...

01:18:57Guest:If I'm honest, it was big for me because I think having not... There are different kinds of black people.

01:19:05Guest:There are those who grow up around white people and have something traumatic happen to them.

01:19:10Guest:And then they, you know, just feel, you know what I mean?

01:19:12Guest:A certain type of way about that.

01:19:14Guest:And then there are those who don't go around white people and just have no idea what to expect.

01:19:18Guest:Yeah.

01:19:18Guest:Just have no fucking idea, but know the history.

01:19:21Guest:And they're like, man, these motherfuckers.

01:19:22Guest:You've heard things.

01:19:23Guest:I've heard things.

01:19:24Guest:That's exactly it.

01:19:25Guest:You've heard things.

01:19:26Guest:And that's always in the back of your head.

01:19:27Guest:It took like a couple of years for my God to drop, you know?

01:19:31Guest:And even one of the sad things about David dying is I felt like it was not until, so he passed and,

01:19:40Guest:I think it was 15.

01:19:42Guest:He passed in 15, early 15.

01:19:44Guest:And I don't think I really got to the space where I could really accept him, accept him, and the kind of love he was trying to give until like 2008 or so.

01:19:52Guest:So it was like the last part of our friendship.

01:19:55Guest:Wow.

01:19:55Guest:You know, where I was much more open to him.

01:19:57Marc:Right.

01:19:58Marc:But he still mentored you despite the fact that you couldn't be open to him.

01:20:02Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:20:03Guest:And I wasn't like I was an asshole to him.

01:20:04Marc:Right, right, right.

01:20:05Guest:You know what I mean?

01:20:06Guest:But I didn't, I wasn't, you know, I was so much, I don't know if you've ever had friendships like this where you're filled with your own insecurities.

01:20:12Guest:Yeah.

01:20:13Guest:And you see the person through that.

01:20:15Guest:Yeah, of course.

01:20:15Guest:Yeah.

01:20:16Guest:You know what I mean?

01:20:16Guest:And so you can't really see... I was out one time with him and this meant the world to me.

01:20:21Guest:He used to call me up when I wasn't doing shit.

01:20:24Guest:On that first year in New York, he would take me to these fancy restaurants in Manhattan.

01:20:28Guest:And I would think, you know, in my insecure way... And he was at the Times then?

01:20:33Guest:Yeah, at the Times.

01:20:33Marc:Yeah.

01:20:34Guest:I think, what in the hell does this dude want to do with me?

01:20:38Guest:You know what I mean?

01:20:39Guest:This white dude is in New York doing X, Y, and Z. I'm over here losing.

01:20:43Guest:What does he want to do with me?

01:20:45Guest:I didn't have enough to say, maybe he just likes me.

01:20:48Guest:I didn't have that.

01:20:49Guest:People like each other.

01:20:50Guest:And this is a thing they do for people they like.

01:20:53Marc:They go out to dinner and talk.

01:20:54Guest:They go out to dinner and talk.

01:20:55Guest:And he would take me, and one time he took, and I...

01:21:00Guest:My dad and my relationship with my dad had changed at that point because my son had been born and my dad was very, very giving towards me.

01:21:06Guest:Whereas before I perceived him as being really hard, he had changed.

01:21:10Guest:He was like full of sympathy and compassion.

01:21:12Guest:And I said, Jesse, I can't understand why my dad keeps giving.

01:21:16Guest:I don't, I don't understand.

01:21:18Guest:Like I'm clearly doing nothing over here, you know?

01:21:22Guest:And he said to me, he said, no, I think you're a good bet.

01:21:26Marc:A good bet?

01:21:27Guest:Yeah, that's what he told me.

01:21:28Guest:He said, I think you're a good bet.

01:21:30Guest:And if anything kills me, is that he didn't get to see all of this.

01:21:35Guest:I mean, he saw some of it, but he didn't get to see all of it.

01:21:39Marc:You really come into your own.

01:21:41Guest:Yeah, no.

01:21:43Guest:But you need people to say shit like that to you when you're down.

01:21:46Guest:That meant the world.

01:21:47Marc:That's great.

01:21:50Marc:Are you still in touch with the last president?

01:21:54Guest:I have not spoken with him since I interviewed him, which I guess is about a year ago.

01:22:01Guest:Mm-hmm.

01:22:02Guest:Yeah.

01:22:03Marc:You think you guys are okay?

01:22:05Guest:I think we're okay.

01:22:06Guest:Yeah, I do know that.

01:22:07Guest:I mean, I know we're okay.

01:22:08Guest:I've heard from other people.

01:22:10Guest:I know we're okay.

01:22:11Marc:I know we're okay.

01:22:12Marc:You're a little hard on him here and there.

01:22:14Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:22:15Guest:But you know what?

01:22:16Guest:He is a sort of person that likes the back and forth.

01:22:19Marc:Yeah.

01:22:20Guest:You know what I mean?

01:22:20Guest:So I think he, I don't want to say he liked it.

01:22:23Marc:Yeah.

01:22:24Guest:But he enjoys a tangle, an exchange.

01:22:27Marc:You like the debate.

01:22:28Marc:He does like the debate.

01:22:29Marc:The thinker.

01:22:29Marc:He's a thinker.

01:22:30Guest:That's right.

01:22:30Guest:He is.

01:22:31Guest:He is.

01:22:31Marc:All right, man.

01:22:32Marc:So there's no hope necessarily, but I think we had a good conversation.

01:22:36Guest:We did.

01:22:37Guest:A lot of inspiration.

01:22:38Marc:Yeah, man.

01:22:38Guest:Thanks so much, Mark.

01:22:45Marc:Okay.

01:22:46Marc:I thought that was a great conversation.

01:22:47Marc:It was great talking to that guy.

01:22:49Marc:Nice meeting him.

01:22:50Marc:I'd like to talk to him again.

01:22:53Marc:Hey, I should lay down a riff.

01:22:55Marc:I can do it.

01:22:56Marc:I can do it.

01:22:57Marc:I can lay down a riff.

01:23:01Marc:I want you all to know that this is about the 90th take on this.

01:23:04Marc:My fingers are stiff.

01:23:06Marc:I'm not hitting it.

01:23:07Marc:You think I give a shit.

01:23:15Yeah.

01:23:39Marc:What a mess.

01:23:41Marc:Boomer lives.

01:23:43Marc:Oh, man.

01:23:44Marc:Fingers are cramping up.

01:23:45Marc:The strings are dead.

01:23:46Marc:I couldn't wrap my... Oh, man.

01:23:50Marc:Boomer lives.