Episode 87 - Daniel Handler (Lemony Snicket) / Almost Dr. Steve
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:All right, let's do this, what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fuckineers, what the fuck nicks, what the fuck is going on?
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:I can't get it together.
Marc:I've not... Okay, I've been off the nicotine for... It'll be two weeks.
Marc:It'll be two weeks.
Marc:Things are going okay, aside from that constant yearning.
Marc:I've been doing little things to try to placate that.
Marc:Little mints, maybe some Altoids.
Marc:I've been doing the Altoids.
Marc:I also dug up these old licorice things that I was addicted to at one point in my life.
Marc:Licorizia Amarelli.
Marc:These strange little candies that I remember ordering from Italy because I was so hooked on them.
Marc:And they're what you call an acquired taste.
Marc:An acquired taste is usually something that tastes like shit, but then if you do it enough, you can't get enough of it.
Marc:That's not to say it's good or bad.
Marc:It's an acquired taste.
Marc:That's what these licorice things are.
Marc:But I just need to put shit in my mouth.
Marc:I just do.
Marc:Let's get to the heart of it.
Marc:Can we talk frankly about it?
Marc:I know I'm a little manic.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Okay, I got some justcoffee.coop going.
Marc:Hold on.
Marc:pow i just shit in my head that's what i've been doing i've been shitting in my own head just pulling down my pants shitting in my head anybody relate to that anybody if i shove another thing into my face i went to the doctor last week had a full physical got finger banged did the whole 10 yards talk to the guy to try not to cry too much have my blood work done got the std screen got the cholesterol screen got the numbers back you know what
Marc:cholesterol a little high a little high you know why because i've been on the road and you know i've been doing on the road eating bacon breakfast lunch and dinner shoving meat right into my face whenever i can scoop an ice cream out of pint jugs doing that that is that's the whole business i am too old for this shit but this is where we get to the core of my my issues i think beyond drug addiction beyond alcohol beyond sex
Marc:There is food.
Marc:Beyond it all, it's just a mountain of food.
Marc:It's a never-ending buffet that I'm late for.
Marc:I am a man with food issues, and I'm not proud of it.
Marc:But now I'm off the nicotine, and all I can think about is getting fat.
Marc:I'm looking at pictures of myself, folks.
Marc:I'm scanning pictures.
Marc:I'm going through the boxes because I just figured out how to scan.
Marc:And there are some doughy periods.
Marc:I like to call them doughy as opposed to fat.
Marc:Some doughy periods.
Marc:I'm noticing that I eat like an inmate, like somebody who's been incarcerated for a while.
Marc:I put my arm around my plate, and I kind of lean into the plate and start shoveling into my mouth.
Marc:I don't know many people that do this, but I'm one of those guys that no matter who I'm eating with, they're like, Jesus Christ, you ate fast.
Marc:They just served the food, and it's gone.
Marc:And I say things like, well, I want to eat it while it's hot.
Marc:What's the point of letting it sit there?
Marc:It starts to get shitty.
Marc:I just shovel stuff into my mouth because it feels good to shovel it in.
Marc:And I barely even chew it.
Marc:I think that's why I'm gassy.
Marc:I'm a little gassy sometimes.
Marc:And I think it's because I swallow my food whole.
Marc:I do not masticate properly.
Marc:I just want to shovel food into my mouth.
Marc:Now, why I'm talking about this to you now is because now I'm off the nicotine and I just want to shovel the food in.
Marc:I just want to eat.
Marc:And I do this thing where I'll bake shit.
Marc:I'll bake a cake to have a bite.
Marc:But then it just sits there and I'll eat half a cake.
Marc:There's a cake in there now.
Marc:Ate half of it.
Marc:And I know you're saying, shut up, Mark.
Marc:You're not fat.
Marc:It can always happen.
Marc:I can always get fat.
Marc:I can feel myself getting fat right now.
Marc:My problem is why the fuck do I think about it 24-7 just about?
Marc:Most of my brain is filled with like, oh, Christ, do I look shitty?
Marc:Do I look fat?
Marc:I'm ashamed of this.
Marc:It feels good to eat.
Marc:It feels good to shove food into your face.
Marc:Are you kidding?
Marc:Ice cream?
Marc:It just feels good.
Marc:Pie?
Marc:Feels good.
Marc:Steak?
Marc:Great.
Marc:How about a turkey burger?
Marc:Excellent.
Marc:What do you got in the cake department?
Marc:I'll have some of that.
Marc:And I'll just wish I could eat that way all day long.
Marc:And then if I eat something, like right now, I cook this cake.
Marc:It was an experimental cake.
Marc:And I ate half of it.
Marc:That was part of the experiment, apparently, is to see how much I could eat.
Marc:And I know I've complained about this before, but I'm just a little concerned.
Marc:I have to fucking talk to somebody about this.
Marc:I seriously have to talk to somebody about this.
Marc:I have to talk to Dr. Steve.
Marc:Almost Dr. Steve.
Marc:Who's the doctor, I believe.
Marc:Pretty soon he should be.
Marc:I'm going to talk to him about this food business.
Marc:On the show today, I had an interesting opportunity to interview Daniel Handler, or as you may know him if you have kids or are a child at heart, Lemony Snicket.
Marc:Daniel Handler is the author of all the Lemony Snicket books, and I caught up with him in San Francisco.
Marc:I hope you enjoy that.
Marc:And then after that, I will talk to Dr. Steve about this manorexia problem I have, about this weird body image problem I have.
Marc:Because I'm about to go shit crazy.
Marc:I'm about to go back on Weight Watchers.
Marc:I've done Weight Watchers.
Marc:I've never been more happy than I have when I was counting my calories and weighing my food.
Marc:There's a certain amount of control in that.
Marc:And then you just get emaciated and you get to continue to weigh your food.
Marc:But the problem is if I lose a lot of weight, folks, my head looks like a bobblehead toy.
Marc:Which is not a bad look if you're a bobblehead toy.
Marc:What else is going on?
Marc:Let's pitch.
Marc:Let's plug some dates.
Marc:And I'll be eating, by the way, in all of these places.
Marc:On July 17th in Minneapolis, I'll be eating some food, and then I'll be doing a show at the Triple Rock Social Club that evening.
Marc:On July 19th and 20th, I will be in Brooklyn, probably eating some pizza, but I'll also be appearing at the Union Hall in Brooklyn on the 19th and 20th.
Marc:On the 23rd of July, I will be, of course, I will be eating some food, and then I'll be performing at Great Scott in Alston, Massachusetts.
Marc:and on the 24th i'll be doing a short set at the comedy studio but also eating some food there in cambridge because that's what i do folks i do comedy and i shove shit into my face and i hate myself for one of those things can you pick which one so
Marc:I do want to tell you one thing that I was the adult on the plane reading the first Lemony Snicket book.
Guest:So I bet you that got the whole row.
Guest:You got your whole row to yourself.
Guest:Well, I, you know, I said creepy man reading children's books.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:What?
Guest:I'm going to move back to row 80.
Guest:I'm going to let this guy have that whole row.
Marc:Well, I mean, I've done a couple of shows with you, and I think you're very funny and very smart, and I enjoyed listening to you talk, but I had never read the book because I don't have children.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, it's a sensible choice.
Marc:And you've written, what, 12 of them?
Marc:13.
Guest:and i by the way my guest is a daniel handler aka lemony snicket hello aka is there another one you use another name um i wrote a book under the name of the pope the pope yeah how was that called how to dress for every occasion by the pope did that sell good not that well no but the lemony snicket books gangbusters yeah the lemony snicket books that's definitely paying the mortgage i uh pope book not so much
Marc:I found that because I don't read children's books because I don't have children.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So I haven't really read a children's.
Guest:Do you have plans to have children?
Marc:Not that I know of.
Marc:I mean, at this point, it's either going to happen spontaneously or someone's going to show up with a child I had.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Which isn't that the only way it would happen?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Which I'm not sure I would be horrible with.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Depends who it was.
Guest:Who it was and how old the kid was.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:If he's gotten or hurt.
Guest:If it was Condoleezza Rice and it was a teenage boy, you'd be in trouble.
Marc:Well, I'd certainly remember that.
Marc:I think I'd remember if I'd had sex with Condoleezza Rice.
Guest:That seems like actually something you would blot out.
Guest:Not you, but something one would blot out.
Marc:Well, I'd be pretty proud of it, I think.
Marc:Maybe because she would have been a different type of person then.
Marc:I was the thing that turned her to the right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:You were the bottom she hit.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:She said, you know what?
Guest:I got to go back to school.
Guest:I got to turn my whole life.
Guest:Look what I've done.
Guest:Dear God in heaven.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I'm going to be Secretary of State.
Guest:Fuck it.
Guest:I'm going to the Republican Party.
Marc:I'm never going to end up in bed with a Jewish comedian again.
Guest:I've got to take a long, hard shower and wash the juice off me.
Marc:What was I thinking?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:What I was interested, because I think the last time I read a children's book, the ones that I remember reading are like the five Chinese brothers.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:But that's younger than this.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And I think it's seven Chinese brothers.
Marc:Is it seven?
Marc:See, when I read it, it was five.
Marc:They must have added two.
Guest:Way back.
Marc:There was just a guy that held the ocean in his mouth and a few other ones.
Guest:Yeah, that's the only part I remember.
Marc:How can you forget that?
Marc:But this thing, like, what is this, for 11 to 15 or something?
Guest:Something like that, yeah.
Guest:Some really young kids have them read to them.
Guest:And then if you get past a certain age, this I always think is funny, they call it a cult following.
Guest:That must be like you, because you do a certain kind of comedy, so it would be called a cult following.
Guest:Even if you were hosting, if you were on the biggest sitcom in the history of the world, they would still, because of the kind of comedy you do, you'd be like, well, he had a cult.
Marc:Right, the sitcom.
Marc:And the cult would be very angry that I did a sitcom.
Marc:And I'd have a hard time holding my cult together, because now I was a sellout.
Guest:Of course, it's always hard, holding a cult together.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Guest:Eventually, you've got to get out the Kool-Aid and the Reeboks.
Marc:That's right, because the energy it takes to delude them into thinking that you're the leader.
Guest:It's not worth it.
Marc:It's not worth it.
Guest:You wake up every day as a cult leader and you say, is this what I want to do with my life when I'm 50, when I'm 60?
Guest:Let's just have everyone kill themselves.
Guest:Seducing virgins?
Marc:Well, yeah, that doesn't sound so bad.
Marc:But I always said that.
Marc:I always thought, like, I wanted to be a cult leader.
Marc:I think I have the charisma to do it, but I just don't have the vision.
Marc:I don't want to get, you know, like 40,000 people together in an arena and get behind the microphone and say, so what do you guys want to do?
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:I think I would be bad at any kind of roughing it.
Guest:You know, any kind of industrial food.
Guest:Bunker life.
Marc:Going underground.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where did you grow up?
Guest:I grew up here in San Francisco, born and raised.
Marc:You're a Jew from San Francisco?
Guest:I am.
Marc:There's not many, like, would you be Jews here?
Guest:No, we've been hunted nearly to extinction.
Guest:The Buddhists take us over one by one.
Marc:Pressured to pass, anyways.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Depends as what?
Guest:Depends as a Californian?
Marc:Yeah, that's it.
Marc:I lived here for a couple years.
Marc:I could not find any Jewish identity at all here, really.
Guest:Yeah, there's like a vague leftist one, I guess.
Marc:Yeah, well, that's better than the other ones.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Lunatic Zionist righties.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:I mean, yeah.
Guest:Well, this is the thing with Judaism, right?
Guest:What is your choice?
Guest:Yeah, my choice.
Guest:Your choice is either kind of fascism.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or hippie, buddha.
Guest:Yeah, it's kind of Jewish if you stay home on a Friday.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, we have Seder plates, and we have people over that night.
Marc:We do our version of the Seder.
Guest:We don't have a picture of Jesus on the Christmas tree, so maybe that doesn't count.
Marc:It's a Hanukkah tree.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you went to school here as well?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Lowell High School, Herbert Hoover Middle School.
Marc:And you went to college here?
Guest:No, I went to Wesleyan University in Middletown, Connecticut.
Guest:Right, so you got fancy at college.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you studied English.
Guest:I milked my parents for all they were worth.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I studied English and American Studies.
Guest:That was my double major.
Guest:The two big money makers.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Guest:I was English in film crit.
Guest:Oh, there you go.
Guest:Yeah, film crits are very popular.
Guest:Because people get nervous when they say English major and then you're like, boom, American Studies.
Guest:I'm on top of it.
Guest:I'm thinking.
Guest:See you in the Hummer.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What was your original goal?
Marc:In college?
Marc:No, I mean, yeah, in college.
Marc:Because I know you do music, too.
Marc:But yeah, in college, were you setting out to be a writer or were you just wasting time?
Guest:No, I wanted to be a writer.
Guest:But I mean, at Wesleyan University in Middletown, Connecticut, everybody wants to be a writer.
Guest:Everyone was like, well, I could work as a fiction editor at The New Yorker if it didn't work out for me.
Guest:But basically, I'm going to be the novelist.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when did you write your first novel?
Guest:I think I was the only one who was like not kidding.
Marc:And when did you write your first novel?
Guest:I wrote my first novel right after I graduated from college and then I threw it away and then I wrote another novel.
Guest:That seems to be the path most people take.
Guest:And what was the first novel about?
Guest:It was about two married couples who get drunk and shoot the celebrity mayor of the small northern California town, inspired by Clint Eastwood back when he was the mayor of Carmel, and then they hide out in their summer home and see if the cops are going to catch them.
Marc:Was there swinging or was it all just blood and guts?
Guest:No, it was all blood and guts.
Marc:So there was no Updike, Cheever?
Guest:No.
Guest:And I think actually that it says something about the sad state of my affairs that that didn't even occur to me when I was writing it.
Guest:That's one of the things when I threw it away.
Guest:I was like, you know what would have spiced this novel up a little bit?
Guest:Four people trapped in a house, real tense.
Marc:No sex.
Guest:No, why would you put sex in it?
Guest:It cheapens the philosophical content.
Marc:well okay so it's getting back to the book like i i read the book and i and i like the book as a grown-up i liked it i'm glad but i i guess the make it awkward on the podcast yeah yeah i'm glad i liked it i i i would have uh it would have been awkward but no i would have said if i didn't like it but the thing that interests me is that it's morbid it's dark uh there are life lessons in there there are some fairly uh
Marc:Some concepts that I think might be a little important for kids to know that I don't think I've seen in other books, put it in that way.
Marc:And I imagine you've had this conversation about these books before.
Marc:But what do you think it is about, like when you wrote a book for people this age, were you challenging them?
Marc:I mean, did you want it to be dark for a reason?
Guest:No, I didn't really think about them.
Guest:I didn't know any children when I started writing the book.
Guest:I'd written this book about young people.
Guest:My first published novel was about kids in high school, but it wasn't for kids in high school.
Guest:And then somebody read it and they said, oh, well, you should write something for young people.
Guest:And I thought it was a terrible idea.
Guest:But then I sort of began to have this idea pop into my head anyway.
Guest:But I didn't know anything about children, and I hadn't read any children's books forever, really, except maybe when you go home and you're in your childhood bedroom.
Guest:Yeah, oh, this one.
Guest:Yeah, and then you spiral down like that, and you end up, you know, crying about the flight to the mushroom planet again.
Guest:But I just thought it would be interesting and funny to have terrible things happen to children over and over again.
Guest:That just seemed like funny to me.
Marc:Did you get any flack from parents?
Marc:I mean, initially when the books came out, did you... No.
Guest:No.
Guest:And I've gotten really little flack now for more than 10 years since they came out.
Guest:And in fact, the flack is so little that I feel like whenever I talk about it, it makes it seem like I'm drumming up controversy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It reminds me of like...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Sell some more books.
Guest:Well, I always think controversial is this word that gets overused.
Guest:You know, like Lady Gaga's controversial new video.
Guest:And I think there has to be a controversy.
Guest:It can't just be a woman wearing a mask and no pants.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There has to be like real controversy.
Guest:People have to be like, I'm not watching TV ever again.
Guest:And neither are 100,000 of my friends because of this video.
Guest:That would be a controversy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Otherwise, it's like, should Lady Gaga do that?
Guest:It's like, yeah, sure.
Guest:What are you, her mom?
Guest:Like, don't worry about it.
Guest:She's doing fine.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:She'll work out her problems later, probably.
Marc:Have you had kids that are now 25 come up to you and say that, you know, you changed my life or that you taught me something?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Like, what do they say?
Guest:They mostly... Most of the kind of 20-somethings that I have met who were 10 when the books first started coming out, mostly what they say is that they were lonely.
Guest:Like, they...
Guest:were lonely and that they didn't know that there were any books that were dark and spooky or dismal and that it made them really happy.
Guest:It made them feel like they had a friend.
Marc:Because the life was so difficult for the Baudelaire's.
Guest:Yeah, and I think just that they found something.
Guest:I mean, it reminds me of when kids find punk rock or a gay lesbian association or kind of whatever that they thought they were the only one who had this particular random brain.
Guest:And then they find something that makes them think there's more of it.
Guest:And I think that it's...
Guest:I don't know I always find that moving because I had less of that growing up I think because this is such a fantastic town to grow up in you know you can take a walk and find food and bookstores and movies and all those things and that you know like my wife grew up in suburbia and she just used to there was one terrible record store she used to go into in one really lame library and you know it was like it was all terrible thrillers in the library and like
Guest:I was going to say Celine Dion, but she wasn't born yet.
Guest:Whoever it was, you know, the equivalent.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that, you know, and then like one day someone said you should listen to the Smiths.
Marc:And it's like, oh my God, there's a whole world out there.
Guest:of morosely depressed people that are yeah you know like oh wow there are four of them they made a record together and it's like oh no there's also the people who bought the record like look there is a picture of them in concert you know it was before the web so you couldn't just be like oh a new band now i'll listen to 85 songs and see all their videos and read an interview with them you know it was isolated yeah you had to do your homework yeah and get out in the world now these kids that came up to you who were in their 20s did you find uh
Marc:Are they similar?
Marc:Were they goths?
Marc:No, they were all kinds of kids.
Guest:Some of them are really gothic.
Guest:But there's also, I think, just a kind of ironic, for lack of a less cliché term, look at the world.
Guest:Just kind of a gimlet gaze at the world that the Snicket books have that you don't have a lot.
Guest:That says the world is ridiculous.
Guest:It's sad, but also ridiculous.
Guest:And those things go hand in hand.
Marc:Well, that's what I took from this because, like, you know, if I was that age and someone put it to me plainly that life doesn't work out for you most of the time and that that's just part of it.
Marc:And this is about as bad as it can get.
Marc:And these kids are dealing with it.
Marc:So you're going to be OK.
Marc:I can see how people would find solace in that on some level.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or, you know, you can behave well, but that it's not going to you're not going to be rewarded because of that.
Guest:You should behave well.
Guest:So let go of your dreams, 11 year old.
Guest:Well, you know, I think I always think when you're young, you see all this kind of injustice in the schoolyard.
Guest:You know, you just see like bullies who the teacher thinks are really smart or really handsome who don't really get punished.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Goodie goodies and you want to hit them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, you just don't see a world that actually makes any kind of moral sense.
Guest:Where were you in that?
Guest:I was going to tell a joke so as not to get beaten up.
Marc:Yeah, I did that too.
Marc:It got me out of it.
Marc:It definitely does.
Guest:They're like, we'll keep you around for a while.
Guest:One more day.
Marc:He's funny.
Marc:Let's not kick his ass today.
Marc:And Baudelaire, because I'm a big fan of Baudelaire the Poet, was that on your mind, his sensibility?
Guest:Well, I think for me, reading Baudelaire when I was about 13 was a big step for me.
Guest:Because he kind of disdains the world, but he's hungry for all the details of it.
Guest:It doesn't stop him from wanting to chase women, where he's like...
Guest:sex and love are the worst thing in the world oh my god look at her yeah she's awesome yeah and that um that you know that was me at 13 oh yeah that's me at 46 yeah well that never has to go away but he was the first 13 was you at 46 i have to do some math hold on i was that way 13 where's the calculator but
Marc:But that idea that, well, he was also really the first of those poets, or one of the first poets to really kind of romanticize bleakness, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And romanticize the grotesque.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:And elevate it to this level of giving a certain voice to the downtrodden and the disgusting.
Guest:And then he'd kind of rather be lonely.
Guest:You know, he'd like rather be alone.
Guest:like drinking cheap wine with the rats scurrying around him.
Guest:And some parties with all those phonies.
Guest:Right.
Guest:For a 13 year old who's not getting invited to the parties.
Guest:You know, you're like, me too, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm with you.
Guest:Baudelaire.
Marc:So do you think any of these kids that read your books were, went searching for Baudelaire?
Guest:Oh, definitely.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think the good news about the web and children's culture is that you can do things like that.
Guest:You can just call things Baudelaire, MMA.
Guest:They're going to check it out.
Guest:When I wrote it originally, I was like, oh, 10 years later, they'll be in college and then it'll be another shoe dropping.
Guest:And that's funny.
Guest:But I didn't think like, no, actually.
Guest:they'll google it and then right now two minutes after they read it they'll be like oh that's crazy yeah so how old do your how many kids you got i just got this one kid he's six and a half you like graduated kindergarten yeah he's still charming yeah um you waiting for the other shoe to drop
Guest:Well, inevitably, yeah.
Guest:But he's not on to me.
Guest:I'm still fascinating to him.
Guest:And yeah, he's great.
Guest:But he's been fantastic throughout.
Guest:I was about to say it's a good age, but actually he's always been a good age so far.
Guest:How does he compare to you?
Guest:I'm better.
Guest:If I had to choose one of us, I would choose me.
Marc:Were you a dark kid, though?
Marc:Were you lonely?
Marc:I mean, for some reason, when I read the book, and some other questions I want to ask about being a children's book writer, because I have to assume that on some level, that's going to be with you forever.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:And you don't mind?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:There's no part of you that's like, but what about my novel?
Guest:No, well, I mean, I also write these novels for grown-ups that go out into the world like novels for grown-ups, and that only book... You've written three other novels?
Guest:Yeah, three.
Guest:Oh, yeah, there's one more coming out in a little bit.
Guest:And what was the Jew book you wrote?
Guest:The Jew book?
Guest:Wasn't there a book with latkes in the title?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That's another Snicket book.
Guest:Oh, it is?
Guest:The Latke Who Couldn't Stop Screaming.
Guest:Is that the last Snicket book?
Guest:Well, it's not part of a series of unfortunate events.
Guest:It's like a bonus holiday book.
Guest:Yeah, it's actually... The full title is The Latke Who Couldn't Stop Screaming, A Christmas Story.
Guest:And it's about a latke who's frustrated...
Guest:by the kind of cheerful, inclusive symbols of Christmas.
Guest:We're like, you're just like us.
Guest:And he's like, I'm a totally different holiday.
Guest:It's like that.
Marc:Now I'm going to have to read all the books?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I think you definitely should.
Guest:Yeah, you should order them right now while you're Googling.
Marc:While you're sitting here?
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Guest:Your wallet's, in fact, right here.
Guest:It's right there.
Guest:I can do it.
Guest:Let's read your Visa number into the podcast.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I've done that.
Marc:I've given my phone number away by accident in a conversation.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:I left a message on a live...
Marc:uh internet radio show or a tv show on the internet and there are still people that text me occasionally wow who got my number yeah very few assholes though i was surprised because that's usually an invitation of people going douchebag a long time ago on um slate magazine a long time ago i wrote this piece in which i was complaining about i went out to coney island with a friend of mine and
Guest:We had to use the bathroom, and the aquarium at Coney Island wouldn't let us.
Guest:And so I wrote like a screed on Slate Magazine.
Guest:And then you could click on a link and email them, which actually Slate Magazine set up.
Guest:They were like, we found the email address.
Guest:And for years, I used to get emails from whoever was in charge of, like, publicity at the aquarium.
Guest:For years, they would email me and say, you know what?
Guest:We just got another complaint.
Guest:And, like, we have good reasons for not letting people in the back.
Guest:Like, I have to get the, like, we have the argument.
Guest:And it used to happen, like, every 18 months.
Guest:But I loved the fury.
Guest:I loved that I was still... And I would always write back and say, you should have let me use the bathroom.
Guest:I really, really had to go.
Guest:I'll never forget you.
Marc:I have no regrets about what I've done.
Guest:Well, because... I don't know.
Guest:Now I'm about to recreate the beast.
Guest:But it's actually...
Guest:There are moments in life that I feel that you need to expand the critical thinking of others.
Guest:And that's one of them.
Guest:Like, whenever I've asked to use the bathroom in some weird place, like an aquarium, and anyone's given me a hard time, I'm like...
Guest:You know how when you really need to use the bathroom and then you find yourself in a place where there's not an obvious bathroom and you're asking, this is the situation that's going.
Guest:Like, what do you think it is?
Marc:I'm not here testing you.
Marc:I need to go.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And like, you must know that if you are ending up at the aquarium, not going to the aquarium and asking you to use the bathroom, that you've already crossed some lines.
Guest:So like, don't cross a further line.
Guest:Just let me use the bathroom.
Marc:I'm in trouble here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Some towns are different.
Marc:Like I've gone into situations where I'll buy something because I don't even want to ask without having something to buy.
Marc:And then there was a period of time where you knew where bathrooms were.
Marc:Like Barnes and Nobles were always very reliable.
Guest:Oh, I have a map in my head of this city.
Guest:There's so many.
Guest:And then there's some bathrooms you walk in.
Guest:There's that Thai restaurant where it's right when you go in.
Guest:And so no one even knows you're at the restaurant.
Guest:You're out of the bathroom.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what are they going to do then?
Marc:Give it back or take it with you.
Yeah.
Marc:But like sometimes you go into Barnes and Nobles, which clearly got, you know, the the homeless population got hip to that because I've been to Barnes and Nobles where it's like, oh, there's a shower going on.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We've got half naked guy in here and it's OK.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I imagine some of those places are I don't know, but I imagine they get pretty, pretty nasty.
Guest:I guess so, but I'm not going to be nasty, so I don't really have any patience for that.
Marc:Sometimes I don't want to walk into nastiness.
Marc:Like, no, just here to do what you're supposed to do in here.
Guest:I have it the same when there's been some screw-up in a building where you're supposed to get in and they can't.
Guest:You know, when they're like, well, I don't have you on the list.
Guest:I'm like, well, could you call the person?
Guest:You know, and they're like, no, I can't do that, sir.
You know, and you're like...
Guest:Does it happen a lot that people come in and they miraculously know the name of someone who works on the 17th floor of this building and they're trying to fake their way in with a name?
Guest:Like they're not faking their way with a fake name.
Guest:I've given you my idea.
Guest:Like you have everything.
Guest:Put the pieces together of this mystery.
Guest:What do you think it is?
Guest:You know what I think it is?
Guest:I think you just got to call that guy.
Guest:He's going to say, sure, send Helner on up.
Guest:That's what I think.
Marc:Well, you know, that gets into this whole problem of people that are just unwilling to take any risks out of fear that we blame for something.
Marc:So this is my job.
Guest:I'm sure in a miserable job, they are blamed for things all the time.
Guest:But I want to be like, this is going to be one of those things where they're just going to let me in and it's going to be off your plate entirely.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Be a good person.
Guest:You're going to go home and it's going to be a distant memory to you.
Marc:Take the leap of faith with me.
Marc:I know that guy.
Guest:Who's in?
Guest:I would be a good cult leader.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:I was convinced.
Marc:I kind of want to go somewhere now and just try it.
Marc:So, OK, so now you've written these 12 books and you weren't a morbid kid or you were?
Guest:I was, I guess, a morbid kid.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, I think it's that Jewish morbidity that's morbid.
Guest:But, you know, you don't stop laughing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But like how morbid were you?
Guest:Life is devoid of meaning and it's nothing but pain and suffering.
Guest:But that's like no reason to don't whine about it.
Marc:That is sort of a Jewish thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you sort of accept it and you go, why?
Marc:OK, I'll live with it.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you realize that's awful.
Guest:We're always staring into the face of a skull.
Guest:But like, you know, we could see a movie for a little while and then we wouldn't be doing that.
Guest:I don't know why... Rent the Three Amigos.
Guest:That's hilarious.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There were certain things.
Marc:There were certain comedies that really changed my life.
Marc:They did make me feel better.
Marc:I don't think I was that deep as a kid, but I did get obsessed with circus freaks for a while.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:My wife is obsessed with circus freaks.
Guest:Is she really?
Guest:Yeah, she's writing a circus freak graphic novel right now.
Guest:Really?
Guest:That I find...
Guest:I find it really cool as a piece of art, but I find it as a psychological portrait of my wife.
Guest:I find it kind of unsettling.
Guest:What do you make of it?
Guest:She's like, what if they didn't have any legs?
Guest:And then they had some mechanical legs.
Guest:And I'm like, maybe some Mexican food.
Guest:Let's go for Mexican food.
Marc:What do you think that indicates?
Marc:You dirty freak.
Marc:Because I had a real fascination for it.
Marc:And I think it's the same reason why people read why kids get fascinated with Lemony Snicket books is that you're dealing with some you're dealing with a real person that is up against such adverse adversity and weirdness and has exploited it for themselves to be accepted, which I think is something that that lonely kids feel.
Guest:I guess that could be yeah there's in a later volume of a series of unfortunate events they are at a carnival and they're in a freak show but the freaks are all like one of them is a contortionist you know and she's like like I'm a freak I'm a freak and they're like well actually if you stop twisting yourself into weird positions no one would know so they're all freaks they're all like kind of self-made freaks oh really who are like the world has cursed me and they're like but you just stop doing that yeah doc it hurts when I do this don't do that
Guest:but i'm a jew yeah i have to continue doing it i was like that with like vocalists with like extreme vocal i remember i read an interview with bjork once where she said that a lot of singers could get kind of straight professional work but that back before she hit it big her voice was so strange that she couldn't get it and it was i i was i didn't have much sympathy you know right maybe stop singing like a crazed elf
Guest:And then if you want to get the tire commercial gig, they'll do that.
Guest:But they're not going to hire.
Guest:No one's going to say, like, that's the freakiest voice I've ever heard in my life.
Guest:Perfect for Pepsi.
Guest:Pepsi loves that.
Marc:But then she waited full circle, and I'm sure she would be in high demand for that stuff.
Marc:I'm sure she is, yeah.
Marc:But you have to, like, there's something about integrity, I guess.
Guest:I wouldn't know.
Guest:That's it.
Marc:You never fought that fight with yourself?
Marc:I can't imagine that somebody would say, fuck that guy, he writes children's books.
Marc:I mean, he created this world that is very appreciated internationally.
Marc:I mean, do you ever get flack from other writers that are like, yeah, that pussy?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I think I only get flack from other writers when I complain in front of them.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I'm like, I'm on deadline now, and...
Guest:And they're like, oh, poor thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Writing a book someone might read.
Guest:It's rough all over.
Marc:What do you think about the the the actual public that reads literature?
Marc:I mean, that reads real writing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's now this strange little demographic that is it's almost disturbing how few there are.
Marc:Do you find that?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, my experience is so strange because then I'm in a Walmart in Nowheresville and there are all these people standing in line to read about orphans named Baudelaire.
Guest:So I'm kind of a bad example.
Marc:Well, I think that's a little different because you sort of touched a nerve.
Marc:But there was a different time in our culture where weren't writers celebrated?
Marc:Wasn't Norman Mailer on The Tonight Show?
Guest:Well, I always kind of wonder.
Guest:He was on The Tonight Show, but I wonder what that translated to in terms of the...
Guest:the regular people yeah who's this guy right yes i mean i mean my parents were both readers but you know my dad worked as an accountant and came home late and it's difficult for me to imagine that before i was born he was like i'll just read the naked and the dad you know i mean he was a good writer i mean a good reader yeah he but why do you want to believe he was like oh my god susan sontag has a new book out like it's it's hard to imagine that that was really what the golden age was it always seems to me that it was more
Guest:that you know media was just controlled by a slightly different set of people yeah so they it was they hadn't figured out oh susan sontag should be on this on the radio all the time she's an important writer right there was an intelligentsia that still had a voice yeah uh in the media
Guest:Well, I think the media was less – well, it was because under Reagan they broke down all those kind of fair media laws.
Guest:But that just became profit-centered, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so now – Garbage.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So now it's commerce.
Guest:Just dumping garbage directly into people's heads.
Guest:It doesn't necessarily have to be garbage, but it's kind of whatever sells.
Marc:Do you find – are you frightened for the future?
Marc:No.
Guest:Sometimes I am.
Guest:It's hard to say.
Guest:It seems, I mean, publishing is definitely approaching a crisis, and then I've watched, I have a bunch of musician friends, and so I've kind of watched the record industry go through its crisis.
Guest:And there does seem to be certain kind of upsweeps that happen from it.
Guest:So only time will tell, I guess.
Marc:And you play accordion?
Guest:I do.
Marc:Did you play since you were a kid?
Yeah.
Guest:No, I took it up in college.
Marc:Do you play conjunto music or polka music?
Guest:I play all kinds of stuff.
Guest:I mean, the nice thing about the accordion is that it's kind of a bastard, gypsy instrument.
Guest:So you can fit in in a bunch of situations.
Guest:I was in a klezmer band for a long time.
Guest:I played country western.
Guest:And then now, mostly I sit in with the magnetic fields.
Guest:But friends of mine are coming into town this weekend.
Guest:I want to play with them.
Guest:They're Canadian pop.
Guest:So you're a good accordion player.
Guest:I'm not very good, but the thing with playing accordion is that you're probably the best accordion player anybody knows.
Guest:So it's really, if I played guitar as well as I played accordion, no one would care.
Guest:But then instead, people are like, oh, an accordion.
Guest:I haven't played with that guy.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Try him out on a couple numbers.
Marc:How come there's no Lemony Snicket cartoon series?
Guest:Oh, I don't know.
Guest:When they made this movie.
Guest:I remember the movie with Jim Carrey.
Guest:Did you have problems?
Guest:No.
Guest:Well, I mean, I worked on the movie for a long time, and then I was fired.
Guest:But other than that, I didn't have problems.
Guest:Fired from your own movie.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:There was actually a great moment where I was visiting the set and they said, oh yeah, go around to this side door and we'll let you in.
Guest:And they couldn't hear me because they'd started something.
Guest:And so I was banging on this door that set on it, Lemony Snicket, and I just felt like I wanted this moment captured on black velvet.
Guest:So they're like, let me in to the thing with me.
Guest:I created it.
Guest:It was scary to watch.
Guest:For a while, it was Paramount and Nickelodeon that were kind of in charge of spreading the Snicket news.
Guest:And, I mean, talk about cults.
Guest:They could spread news of anything.
Guest:You know, they just had this power.
Guest:They had just made a couple of teenagers into rock stars.
Guest:And I don't remember what their names are now because that was five generations of teen star ago.
Guest:But it was like they could sell anything.
Guest:They just could.
Guest:You know, they just said, oh, yeah, we got this guy.
Guest:We put him on Nickelodeon.
Guest:And I'd been to the meeting where they'd mentioned him and I'd never heard of him.
Guest:And then like six months later in Times Square, huge images of him.
Guest:Everyone loved that guy.
Guest:His name was Nick Carter, but I feel like that's a detective from the 30s.
Marc:Well, I think at some point that's what happened to culture and what happened to to entertainment product was that they realized that.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I always think it's funny because it's not actually like grownups like it too.
Guest:It's just that kids can't go to the movies by themselves.
Guest:You know?
Guest:But they throw in a couple jokes.
Guest:I just always think that's funny when they're like, and it's for grownups.
Guest:And I'm like, it's not for grownups.
Guest:The grownups are just there.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There's no.
Marc:Because you don't want to leave your kid at the theater.
Guest:Well, you can't.
Guest:You should be able to.
Guest:There should be.
Marc:I did when I was a kid.
Marc:My parents would drop me off just about anywhere.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think at a very young age.
Marc:They were more than willing to.
Guest:Now that's frowned upon.
Guest:But it's still for younger kids.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I was sent to camp just because my parents... I'm kind of unplugged from that whole thing because our kid is something of a scaredy cat.
Guest:I mean, we're something of tight intellectuals.
Guest:No, we're not nervous parents, but he hasn't been to a movie.
Marc:What do you mean he hasn't been to a movie?
Guest:He hasn't been to a movie in a theater.
Marc:What are you talking about?
Guest:It's six and a half.
Marc:It's time to take him to the movies.
Guest:Yeah, I want to.
Guest:We keep on looking because we live right in the Castro Theater, which is so fantastic.
Guest:And sometimes they show great.
Guest:And I don't mean like a Casablanca.
Guest:I just mean like Shrek or something.
Guest:Because it would be so fun to go to one.
Guest:I don't think he even has a sense of what going to a movie theater is and seeing a movie.
Guest:Because he's never...
Marc:I think this is freakish, Daniel.
Guest:He's only six and a half.
Guest:Also, he's scared of everything.
Guest:But how are you going to... What's your plan?
Guest:To take him to the movie someday.
Marc:Well, I mean, what's your plan to get him over these fears?
Marc:Because I was a frightened kid, and I'm still frightened, and then I got angry.
Guest:So you never got over it?
Guest:No.
Marc:Well, I pretended not to be frightened.
Marc:What happens when you're frightened, if you don't overcome the fear, then you just get angry, and you pretend like you're not afraid.
Marc:That's no way to go through life, but that's the way we all go through life.
Guest:My sister was just talking to me about this because she's...
Guest:She fundraises for a living and she's really good at it.
Guest:She's super charming.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I said to her once, how do you walk into these rooms?
Guest:I've seen the rooms of people you walk into and they're often not at all interesting to you.
Guest:And you managed to charm them.
Guest:And she said, I think of what a person who would be interested in these people would say.
Guest:And then I say that.
Guest:And I thought it was a fascinating answer.
Guest:It was almost like she was acting.
Guest:My character thinks that person's interesting.
Guest:I never think that.
Guest:I'm with a boring person and I think, where's the bourbon?
Guest:That's all I think.
Guest:What do I say that offends you that'll make you move away from me?
Guest:But that's not so offensive that you'll go around saying you won't believe what Handler just said.
Guest:Or at least make the conversation interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But how do you plan to have roller coasters, that kind of stuff?
Guest:No, he's six and a half.
Guest:You don't know anything about kids.
Guest:He's too young.
Guest:Okay, I understand.
Guest:He just graduated from kindergarten.
Guest:You didn't go on a roller coaster in kindergarten.
Guest:I won't go on one now.
Guest:You probably saw like two Disney movies when you were in kindergarten.
Guest:But you have a big screen TV?
Guest:No, we have actually a small crappy TV.
Guest:Oh, see, now I'm worried about your kid.
Guest:I want him not to be afraid.
Guest:We don't really watch TV.
Guest:You don't?
Guest:No.
Guest:What do you do for entertainment?
Guest:You play games?
Guest:Board games?
Guest:What, do you make candles?
Guest:Is that what you do?
Marc:Or do you just sit around and drink bourbon with your kid?
Guest:Yeah, we do that a lot.
Guest:Yeah, we have some DVDs.
Guest:He walks his electric company.
Guest:The old ones with Morgan Freeman?
Guest:There is no new one.
Guest:Yeah, so Morgan Freeman and Rita Moreno.
Marc:Is there still – you can get that in a box set?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The Morgan Freeman electric company?
Guest:Yeah, in fact, sadly, what the box set says on it is –
Guest:for it says something like for nostalgic purposes only not for education because um even though it does teach you to read and it's what teaching my kid to read some of the subject matter is um it's not even it's not racy or anything but it's not what they would ever put in children's public like what children's television now do you know just watching it last night and one of the words they just had all these words that they were sending out and one of them was rum
Guest:And it's just an example, because Otter said, what is rum?
Guest:And we said, oh, it's something you put in cocktails that grownups drink.
Guest:But now they would never use the word rum to help you sound something out on children's television, which is ridiculous, of course.
Marc:It is ridiculous.
Marc:What do you think about that?
Marc:I mean, you're in the lofty crew.
Marc:You're running with the McSweeney's bunch.
Marc:I mean, they all have children.
Marc:I mean, do you have moments where you're like, why are we parenting like this?
Guest:Well, I don't parent like that.
Guest:And I don't know people who, I mean, I don't know, no friends of mine parent people like that.
Guest:I've seen parents like that.
Guest:But I don't think, I don't actually think that's because of parental demand.
Guest:I think that's because of corporate paranoia about getting sued.
Guest:That's it?
Guest:I just think of it.
Guest:I don't think there are really so many people who say, oh my God, I have to explain rum to my children.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But do you think that's... I always think that about homosexuality.
Guest:There's all that like, what am I going to say to my kids?
Guest:I always think, it's like a two sentence explanation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What's so complicated?
Marc:The sentence is, he likes men.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they're happy.
Guest:And I have a memory of when my parents told me about homosexuality, which they did young because it was here in San Francisco.
Guest:And I had like a minute and a half freak out about that.
Guest:And I always think there should be like a minute and a half freak out from the nation and then get over it.
Guest:You know, Barack Obama should be like tomorrow at 2.35 p.m.
Guest:Everyone has to.
Guest:Freak like anyone who's not over it needs to freak out about it.
Guest:And then you're done.
Guest:You don't get to talk about it ever again.
Marc:But you think it's corporate fear?
Marc:But you don't think that there is a sort of virulent, puritanical, ridiculous streak in this country that is serviced?
Guest:Oh, a streak, but I don't think it's like the majority.
Marc:No, but I think that the corporations are afraid of losing that market.
Marc:So they're more pandering to them by monitoring this shit than they are really afraid of being sued.
Marc:Don't you think?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It's hard to say.
Guest:Here's an example.
Guest:At my kid's elementary school, there's a morning assembly every morning.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they do exercises as part of it.
Guest:And one day they said to me, would you leave the exercises?
Guest:Like different people took turns.
Guest:And so I was like, yeah, sure.
Guest:So I said, I'm going to teach you guys how to go-go dance.
Guest:And we all, I was like, on top of all these steps.
Guest:And one of them was a shimmy.
Guest:You know, it was like 20 seconds long.
Guest:And the kids loved it.
Guest:So then I got to do it like once a week.
Guest:It was like Thursday, here he comes again, go-go dancing.
Guest:And then some parent complained once said, go-go dancing objectifies women.
Guest:It really took me off because the only people I know have ever go-go danced have been men.
Guest:Like I know like five men who've go-go danced for a living.
Guest:I don't know, a single woman.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so the principal said, maybe we ought not to do it.
Guest:And I said, we're going to stop something that everybody loves because that person, it's undemocratic among other things.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it's also like that's such a weird progressive puritanical complaint.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's not even like go-go dancing is the dance of the devil.
Marc:It's like, look, in the world where I come from, go-go equals stripper equals making meat of women.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and I was like, not in this town, honey.
Guest:It's Knob Hill Male Theater.
Guest:If you're skinny enough and you don't care, you make good money right after you graduate from college.
Guest:But not if you're a woman.
Guest:No, not here.
Guest:Yeah, that's what I said to the principal.
Guest:I said, if you really want to delve into the sexual politics of go-go dancing, it's not misogynist.
Guest:Whatever you want to call it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You said that to him?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And what did he say?
Guest:She said she laughed.
Guest:She didn't care.
Guest:She just said, I'm nervous now about this parent.
Guest:And I just thought, but it's the only one parent.
Guest:So we didn't cancel it.
Marc:You didn't?
Guest:No.
Guest:You won?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, did that parent take his kid out or her kid?
Guest:No, I just think they want to grumble.
Guest:I don't, you know, I don't know where the notion got to be that you don't get to be uncomfortable.
Guest:I always think that's weird.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's sometimes too much progressive is bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's very annoying.
Guest:It just seems weird to me.
Marc:Because it's a censorship belt based on guilt as opposed to principles.
Guest:And self-righteous Jews do it.
Guest:They're like, there's a Christmas tree in the airport.
Guest:And I'm like, I don't like Celine Dion, but there's nothing I can do about it.
Guest:She's everywhere.
Guest:I want to thank you for coming to my hotel room and talking to me.
Guest:My pleasure.
Guest:Thanks for having me.
Marc:Yeah, it was great talking to you.
Marc:And I probably will read more Lemony Snicket because I don't think you're ever too old.
Guest:um well thank you i don't think you're ever too old oh no wait you meant i'm sorry never mind what's the new book gonna be about uh i have a book for grown-ups coming out about pirates and then i'm working on something for children that's kind of top secret top secret yeah i want a scoop um no way i'm not giving it to you really not even the missus you're not telling your wife
Guest:Well, she knows I'm working on it, but she doesn't.
Marc:What's the book about pirates?
Guest:It's about some people, some teenage girls and some people at an old age home who get angry at the world and try to become pirates in the kind of classical mode.
Guest:They steal a boat and are trying to steal treasure and harass people around the San Francisco Bay.
Guest:But it doesn't go that well.
Guest:is this for this for adults yeah and it's teenage girls and as pirates old men and ladies yeah who all become pirates yeah they're angry and they try to escape into a world of piracy with the outfits yeah parrots are there parrots there's a parrot is there eye patches walk on the plank there's eye patches yeah there's the whole thing it's funny i'm assuming i hope so
Marc:So we're looking forward to the pirate book.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:And whatever else you offer up.
Marc:And I'm glad you stopped by again, Daniel Handler.
Guest:Thanks for having me.
Guest:See you later.
Marc:In the studio right now, why am I calling the studio?
Marc:Just because I got a new table?
Marc:I got a new table, and all of a sudden it's a studio.
Marc:In the garage at the Cat Ranch with the new table is almost Dr. Steve.
Marc:Are you a doctor yet?
Guest:It's, you know, we're going to milk this for what we can, or maybe I'm just having trouble finishing the dissertation, but it's almost Dr. Steve for another month or so.
Marc:Okay, so we can milk it for a little while longer.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:So now the issue today, Steve, is I am...
Marc:How do I put this?
Marc:I'm an anorexic girl.
Marc:I have a problem.
Marc:I mean, I know where it comes from.
Marc:I know that my mother had eating disorders, but it goes beyond that.
Marc:And I think it's my deepest fucking issue.
Marc:I can't get around it.
Marc:I have body dysmorphia.
Marc:I think, like right now, I'm uncomfortable because my fat is hitting the chair.
Marc:Do you see that fat?
Guest:I can't see it.
Marc:Okay, so what's that about?
Guest:It's the studio setup, actually.
Guest:I might be able to see it if I look closely.
Marc:Maybe it's something that only I am making up, but I tell you, it's been the guiding force of my life that if I feel heavy or I feel uncomfortable in my body, I want to disappear.
Marc:Is it a common thing with men, first of all?
Guest:Well, first of all, it is becoming more and more common with men.
Guest:What do you make of that?
Guest:And what do I make of that?
Guest:It's so multi-layered, but one of the layers is the sort of revising of the media image of what the perfect male body is.
Guest:Too many abs around?
Marc:A lot of abs.
Marc:Being hit in the face with abs all the time.
Guest:I can't look anywhere without being smacked in my brain with abs.
Guest:V-shaped bodies.
Guest:Actually, I read something the other day that was pretty hilarious that if...
Guest:The extreme GI Joe of the current day were to be extended into a five foot ten man.
Guest:He would have like 50 times bigger biceps than the greatest weightlifter ever.
Marc:So we're going to blame some of this on cultural mediated images.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Okay, so that explains a lot of the sort of metrosexual gym culture.
Marc:You know how little body fat you have to have for abs?
Marc:I mean, I think I had abs for two weeks once when I was emaciated.
Marc:So outside of the cultural indicators, why do I feel great like that?
Marc:Because it's the only time my mother would like me?
Marc:Is that it?
Guest:Something like that.
Guest:I think with you, that's probably one of the biggest areas is being the son of someone who struggled with eating disorders.
Marc:okay but let's talk about eating disorders in a general way i mean what is that i guess it's about control right i mean when some like i saw an anorexic girl last night which makes me nauseous uh with sadness where you just like you know eat something but they can't eat something because they think they look good or they still think they look fat or what well it's a combination of those things after a certain point
Guest:Things go on chemically, neurochemically that actually really start to make the anorexic unable to see anything close to reality.
Marc:Because from lack of nourishment, they're delusional on top of them being already delusional?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:That's a good high though.
Guest:It seems like one at the time perhaps, but like the kinds of other highs that you looked for before that were very detrimental to your health.
Marc:Okay, so you're saying that's not a healthy thing.
Guest:I understand that.
Marc:It's extremely unhealthy.
Marc:But then what about all this fatness?
Guest:do i do i look fat no you don't look fat what and and i you know what what did you say i said you don't look fat oh you know how i was able to do that so easily i have that conversation with my wife every day are you serious every day now what's what's the issue there because you carry a little punch yeah i've got a punch as a matter of fact i like the way you looked over i don't want to i don't want to be in
Marc:Right.
Guest:The only reason I'm doing a podcast is so no one has to know that, but here we go.
Guest:Yeah, you got a little punch.
Guest:I got a little punch, and it's actually, some of it I would say is kind of a natural thing, and some of it is something that I should work on.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's part of it is the almost doctor thing, sitting around writing a dissertation all the time, took me out of my exercise regimen.
Marc:So wait, so you're saying excuses?
Marc:No.
Marc:Right, excuses.
Guest:But then the other part of it is that a lot of this is genetic.
Guest:And I come from a family that has struggled with weight all their lives, pretty much.
Guest:Everyone else in my family.
Guest:Is this part of the big boned argument?
Guest:It's not just an argument.
Guest:It's actually a fact that if you look at what people consider to be the ideal body.
Guest:And the thing is, is that your version of things, the sort of...
Guest:as you're putting it, anorexic girl, but anorexic man or anorexic thinking man, is more of kind of a 70s, 80s rocker kind of look that has continued into our day where there's a belief that it's not about the muscle mass, it's about this thin... How lanky you are.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Don't you hate guys that don't get any weight?
Guest:that can just eat and eat and eat and not gain any weight?
Guest:It used to bother me, and I guess it still bothers me now, in a sense.
Marc:The other thing is that when you're immersed in Weight Watchers or OA, Grayscale, whatever you're doing to manage your weight, even if it's just an exercise regimen and not eating carbs...
Guest:it's all you think about and and it's one of the few things that you do have control over what you put in your dumb face right that's right and the fact is that this culture of dieting which has been going on forever and ever right right that is in a lot of ways or for many people is the beginning of it that you get into that
Guest:culture of dieting and you believe that dieting is going to work.
Guest:And the number is just insane.
Guest:Like the different studies, you know, it's numbers up to like 97% of people who diet gain the weight back within five years.
Marc:Well, five years, that's not a bad run, man.
Marc:If you can take 20 off, 25 off and get like a three year ride out of it.
Marc:That's pretty good.
Guest:Yeah, well, we'll look at those percentages to see if it looks as perfect as that.
Marc:One time a guy, Mitch, said to me when I was freaking out about weight, he goes, you know how you solve that?
Marc:Just eat the same thing every day.
Guest:Where's the joy?
Guest:I had a friend do that, but what he did was, this is as he exited his heroin addiction, every day for a year he ate the same thing every day, which was pancakes, bacon, and eggs in the morning and a double bacon cheeseburger.
Guest:Did he have a heart attack?
Guest:He didn't, but he gained about 80 pounds.
Guest:And then he stopped.
Guest:You got to forgive people.
Guest:They quit smoking.
Marc:They quit heroin.
Marc:You know, you got to give them a little leeway.
Guest:And that is the way, you know, some people don't develop full blown eating disorders like we're talking about or talking about different aspects of it.
Guest:But some people do switch to the food when they're coming off of another addiction or they're trying to fix their feelings in some way.
Marc:But some people, it is the food.
Marc:And that's one of the reasons we have such an obesity problem.
Marc:Okay, granted, there's bad food.
Marc:But just by virtue of the fact of people that write me here at the podcast or just by virtue of the fact that people in this narcissistic culture we live in are hiding a lot.
Marc:They're stuffing a lot of feelings.
Marc:They're trying to get by.
Marc:They're not honoring the voice of frustration and sadness that they have in them.
Marc:So food is one of the few things that is insanely accessible any time of day.
Marc:Don't need an ID for it.
Marc:Don't need to be a certain age to shove whatever you want into your face.
Marc:And I think people find it comforting.
Marc:Now tell me a little bit about the obese people.
Marc:It's sort of an old concept that when you are obese or you have that type of eating disorder, it's like you know that you're half obese.
Marc:How come it continues?
Marc:Because I know there must be self-hatred involved in that, and I know that feeds the discomfort, which feeds the addiction.
Marc:I've been in other addictive processes before, but after a certain point, I mean, how can they not stop?
Guest:Well, in that way, it's the flip side of the same coin with people who are starving themselves in as much as
Guest:There are a lot of disorders comorbid with these eating disorders.
Guest:Comorbid?
Guest:Which means, you know, that go along with.
Marc:I like that word.
Marc:Comorbid, folks.
Marc:Make note of it.
Marc:Comorbid.
Marc:Why can't you just eat goes along with?
Marc:Why does that have to have morbid in it?
Guest:Then I wouldn't have anything to talk about in doctor school.
Marc:I know, but comorbid, does that mean it has to be morbid?
Marc:Like it has to be like a pathology, like comorbid?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, comorbid disorders.
Guest:So we're talking about when things go to a place that you give it a diagnosis.
Guest:I've had a comorbid relationship or two.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've heard about them over the phone and on your podcast.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In any case, depression, anxiety disorders, mood disorders and anxiety disorders in particular.
Guest:So a person either starts with, let's say you start with a depression, you're eating on top of it, and then it becomes a snowball, or you're eating,
Marc:a lot and you start to get your self-esteem gets affected by you know getting larger yeah and you could fall into other aspects of depression etc and again snowball so and also the the biggest problem is it tastes so fucking good to just shove food in your mouth well i mean like ice glass night i'm like if i start with ice cream it's gonna go on for a few days and then some you know girl scout or some form of you know
Marc:beautiful teenage girl comes by with peanut brittle and scented candles and uh chocolates for something i didn't even question you know what it was she needed help of some kind there was a group of them so i said give me peanut brittle so now i'm like crunching up peanut brittle into vanilla ice cream and then putting some chocolate fudge ice cream on and there's nothing better than that like it there it's i want to get some right now yeah
Marc:That's the other problem.
Marc:It tastes so fucking good, doesn't it?
Guest:It does, and the thing that we have here in the United States, and it's spreading throughout the world, or has spread throughout the world, I mean, you cannot ignore the influence of fast food.
Guest:Corn syrup.
Guest:Corn syrup, very, very high fat, very, very high salt.
Guest:Very, very high sugar diet.
Marc:Salt holds water.
Marc:It does.
Marc:Like sometimes you think you're really fat, but you're just full of water.
Marc:So how do you treat this, Steve?
Marc:I mean, what would you tell me to do?
Marc:Because I'm clearly in pretty good shape.
Marc:I'm not fat, but I think I am all the time.
Marc:Would you say, hey, stop thinking about that.
Marc:Give me the tough love thing?
Guest:No, I probably wouldn't do that, but I would work with you on the thought processes because that's a lot of what's going on with you.
Marc:I guess what it is with me is that...
Marc:I think I need something to sort of fester about like that, to sort of make me go, I'm not a good person.
Marc:I'm not good enough.
Marc:I'm not attractive enough.
Marc:I need to fight that struggle because in some fucked up way, I think it grounds me.
Marc:Is that possible?
Marc:I mean, it's not grounding me in anything good, but it's consistent.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, that's where you start to look at it from the addiction perspective.
Guest:Because what addictions feel like they do at a certain point is they ground you.
Guest:Like when I was a kid, I needed that drink.
Guest:When I was a kid, I needed to eat that ice cream.
Guest:Or when I was a kid, I needed to shoplift or whatever it is.
Guest:And then it feels so good.
Guest:It feels really good.
Guest:And then at a certain point, it doesn't feel as good anymore.
Guest:Food always feels pretty good in my face.
Guest:And that is one of the problems.
Guest:That's also why I have a friend who we talk about this a lot.
Guest:And we talk about if we were to put the ultimate rehab together, it would always involve food, sex, and money.
Guest:Because those are the three things.
Guest:Those three things are the core of life.
Guest:And they are the things that tend to go together.
Guest:Going back to what you're talking about with the control, that is a huge part of eating disorders.
Guest:And a huge part of it has to do with people wanting to have boundaries or create boundaries where boundaries maybe weren't there in the first place.
Guest:How do you explain it?
Guest:well you know I get to choose like you said I get to choose what goes in my mouth I get to choose how my body ends up being constructed through the food that I eat yeah and so that that's mine yeah and you can't take that from me you know I get to control that yeah and so that also fuck you where's my pizza like that yeah or fuck you I'm not eating pizza what are you trying to do to me right those those are the options so let's get back to you and your wife that's that's interesting to me interesting to me let me wear the doctor's hat sure go ahead
Marc:So what are you experiencing at home around this issue, Steve?
Guest:Basically, it's a daily struggle with her focusing as much as she can on my lack of abdominal structure and her also focusing completely on that.
Guest:I mean, she practically has washboard abs.
Guest:You know her, but she doesn't.
Guest:show them off that way a lot.
Guest:But she practically has washboard abs and daily she talks about how she is fat.
Guest:Just before I came over here, she said, I feel like a fat piece of shit.
Guest:That's what she said.
Guest:That's what you left the house with?
Guest:That's just before I left the house.
Guest:She got a little more cheerful.
Marc:What kind of set you up for our conversation?
Marc:conversation all right so let me see what's the next step here for me uh uh almost dr mark i'm not even almost but okay dr mark so she she brings up her body issues and then she she says then she transposes it projects it yeah i know she she projects it onto you and says when are you gonna go to the gym that's right and how does that make you feel it makes me feel not so good
Guest:but you know what i've i've gotten used to it in terms of the negotiations that go on you know every now and then she will say enough things about that are completely demented and delusional about her appearance that i will say you know we're sending you in-house you've got to go for some 30 days and then you also realize this isn't about me i know that i have a punch but it's got hurt a little bit
Guest:A little bit, you know, like, I mean, it hurts a lot a bit.
Guest:I grew up in a house, like I said, where actually it was a little strange.
Guest:I was kind of, I never struggled with weight or even had any degree of a punch until a very, you know, like in my thirties.
Guest:And the rest of my family has struggled with weight throughout their lifespan.
Guest:And so there always seemed to be, they used to seem to like they were eyeballing me, you know, like what's, what's up with you?
Guest:You know, they, I was on board.
Guest:getting the same cloud of food but for some reason i had like the metabolism of hummingbird or something i don't know what was going on i used to eat yeah but um i never had that struggle and my dad used to you know like i remember mickey lolich pitched for the uh detroit tigers you know big big more than a punch you know and he used to point out all those kind of fat athletes and go hey that's an athlete right there you know like it's the old keith richards is still alive same argument right and the drug use and smoking
Guest:So that was put to me as sort of like a vision of beauty in my family.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Fat people can make it.
Guest:Yeah, sure they can.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And as for me, I was different and other than in the family.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that's a button that it pushes since we're doing almost Dr. Mark.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, that's a button that it pushes for me is it pushes the sort of that sort of I'm the outcast in my family.
Guest:At the same time, I'm now I belong to my family.
Guest:But at the same time, society is telling me I shouldn't have the punch.
Marc:Right, and to share some common experience, my mother said fairly recently that she didn't know she could love me if I were fat.
Marc:I mean, that's recently.
Marc:Now, I guess then what I would say to you is, are you able to separate from those bad childhood images or that feeling and those experiences and acknowledge the reality of your fat?
Guest:Well, that was a good quote of my wife calling it fat.
Guest:What would you call it?
Guest:I would just call it my pizza baby.
Guest:I guess that's the same thing.
Guest:Well, that's cute, but let's be honest.
Guest:It needs to go.
Guest:In terms of health, when I've looked at the statistics and the chances of me dropping dead, I should lose it.
Guest:I really do need to lose it.
Guest:And as soon as I finish this dissertation, I will be back on my regular exercise regimen.
Marc:Sure, you'll kick tomorrow.
Guest:But...
Guest:Mark bust Dr. Steve's denial film at 11.
Guest:So in any case, I'm able to see how her projection onto me and my starting to filter it through the family thing.
Guest:I am able to start to answer your question really.
Guest:I am able to stop that.
Guest:I'm able to step back and see that the combination of my own family stuff and the cultural stuff that I was raised with, you know, because I was raised sort of in my teen years in a rocker culture that, you know, and I was able to fill that suit for a long time.
Guest:And ever since I haven't been able to, I felt like I didn't have a place where my body could live.
Marc:You know, what I was actually, you know, I got here's here's how I help myself around this stuff is that.
Marc:Not about a year ago, I lost a bunch of weight in a contest with my friend Sam, and I got very skinny, more skinny than I'd been in a long time, and I was wearing skinny jeans on stage, and I looked like a bobblehead.
Marc:Because my head doesn't get any skinnier, and I have a big head.
Marc:So what I started to realize is that even though that makes me feel great, that it's really not healthy, it doesn't make me look good, and that I have to have some self-acceptance around where I am, and I have to somehow
Marc:You know, maintain an exercise regimen and try not to eat compulsively.
Marc:Right.
Marc:On a practical level.
Marc:And the other thing I think that, like in talking to you, that I think people should realize is that it's a slow process.
Marc:And it takes a certain amount of discipline and commitment.
Marc:But once you slowly adjust to it, you know, to exercising a little more and not eating certain things, you don't have to go crazy, that it will change.
Marc:You will feel better about yourself just for doing that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you stay with that and you will see results over a month or two.
Marc:And it's just a matter of realizing that because I think a lot of us also in this culture, like, I want to lose it tomorrow.
Marc:I need to lose it in a week.
Marc:How come I'm not seeing any results?
Marc:Fuck it.
Marc:But the truth of the matter is, is that, you know, you got to sort of try to accept who you are, where you are at that moment.
Marc:Like if you're uncomfortable, instead of saying like, I'm five pounds overweight.
Marc:And then the next thing you should say is, well, I'm gonna change my diet a little bit and exercise a little more.
Marc:Not, I'm a fucking idiot.
Marc:God damn it, look at me.
Marc:This is fucking disgusting.
Marc:I mean, I've gotten to the point where if I feel fat and someone I'm with tries to touch me, I'm like, I literally want to leave my fucking body.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:That's how it manifests.
Guest:That's how it manifests for a lot of people.
Guest:And we're not even talking about people with eating disorders.
Guest:We're talking about that, you know, probably crawling around L.A.
Guest:today at this moment are people who are experiencing those kind of experiences, which is not to be a walking billboard for therapy, but that's.
Guest:All that, that mind stuff that goes with it, some of it is dealt with through just the very practical notion of improving the exercise regimen and improving the eating and getting the residual feelings from that.
Guest:But a lot of that mind stuff has been with people and with you, with me, for a long time, programmed into us.
Marc:Fighting the switch that goes, I'm an idiot.
Marc:I'm fucking worthless.
Marc:I'm unattractive.
Marc:I look horrible.
Marc:That's the same thing.
Marc:I'm an asshole for eating like that, like that way that we beat each other, beat ourselves up.
Marc:So you still belong to the Y?
Guest:I had to think about that because it's been a while.
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:Because I used to see you down there occasionally.
Guest:Yeah, but I'm at the South Pass Y now because it's closer to where I live.
Marc:All right, so you want to go to the gym?
Marc:Yeah, let's go to the gym.
All right.
Marc:Well, I guess that helps.
Marc:I guess I'm all set.
Marc:I guess I'm fucking hungry, man.
Marc:I'm going to go eat the rest of that cake.
Marc:It's got, uh, it's got like orange zest, almond meal, corn meal, ricotta cheese, eggs, sugar, a little bit, some figs and rosemary.
Marc:It's really lovely, too crumbly, which means I can't serve it.
Marc:So I have to shovel it all into my face.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com and please get on the mailing list.
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Marc:I'd like to send you some.
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Marc:I'm not begging.
Marc:I think I'm doing a good show here.
Marc:So why don't you donate a little money if you could.
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Marc:Also, I told you the dates.
Marc:Boston, or let's just run through them real quick.
Marc:You can go to the website, wtfpod.com, get my dates, or go to markmarin.com.
Marc:But let's run through them again.
Marc:The 16th, there'll be a live WTF at UCB and LA with Craig Robinson and Ed Krasnick.
Marc:17th, I will be in Minneapolis at the Triple Rock Social Club, okay?
Marc:The 19th and 20th of July, Union Hall in Brooklyn, New York.
Marc:The 23rd of July, I will be at Great Scott in Boston.
Marc:The 24th, I will be at the Comedy Studio in Cambridge, but just for a short set.
Marc:So don't stop yourself from going to Great Scott.
Marc:And then come around the 28th, I will be going to England.
Marc:I'll be doing a run at the Soho Theater through the first week of August.
Marc:And later in August, I believe the second week, second weekend of August, I'll be at the Laughing Skull in Atlanta.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com or markmarin.com to check those dates and get tickets.
Marc:Go to punchwyemagazine.com.
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Marc:These are people that help me, so I'm helping them go enjoy what they have to offer.
Marc:Okay, now I'm going to go eat cake.
Marc:Cake, here I come.
you