Episode 869 - Greta Gerwig
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuck nicks what the fuck of crats what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it on the show today i talked to the director greta gerwig the actor and director greta gerwig about her new film ladybird i'm happy that greta's here today
Marc:I hope you feel all right.
Marc:It has been a roller coaster, continues to be a roller coaster culturally and politically, and I find it exhausting, but I am trying to find some space where I can be okay with the life that I've worked for and settled into.
Marc:But man, it's hard.
Marc:But I'll tell you, everything that's going on, somehow or another has made me appreciate life a bit more.
Marc:I always sort of took it for granted.
Marc:You take life for granted.
Marc:I'm living.
Marc:And you sort of avoid your ultimate destiny any way that you can on a daily basis.
Marc:But now I'm sort of like...
Marc:It might happen.
Marc:It's obviously going to happen, but it might happen.
Marc:You know, I've talked about this before.
Marc:I feel like I'm being morose.
Marc:I watched some comedy.
Marc:I did some comedy.
Marc:I'm trying to continue evolving my craft.
Marc:I hope you all are as well.
Marc:I hope you're trying to do the best you can do so you can at least feel good about that.
Marc:I am in the garage.
Marc:I am in between homes.
Marc:I am spending equal time almost at both places in a way doing the work here at the here at the cat ranch and doing the work at the other place.
Marc:I was outdoors in front of my new house.
Marc:I met the woman who is the head of the neighborhood watch.
Marc:Yes, I met her, and she introduced herself and then pointed out the homes of who lived in where and where the other neighborhood watch people and who her co-watch person was.
Marc:Caddy Corner gave her my email, so I will be getting the coyote updates, the suspicious drifter updates, the water main breaking updates.
Marc:Did anyone hear that updates?
Marc:I haven't been on a neighborhood watch in a while.
Marc:I had one.
Marc:I was on one up here.
Marc:And just got to be a bit much.
Marc:It got to be a bit.
Marc:It just got to be.
Marc:I couldn't keep up.
Marc:And I was constantly looking out my window because there's always one or two people on the neighborhood watch, which it seems to be their life.
Marc:That is their life.
Marc:And, you know, you got to you got to pull out, man.
Marc:I had to get out of that one.
Marc:Had to get out of that loop.
Marc:We'll see how the new loop goes.
Marc:Sarah, the painter's on one and she gets updates about cats and coyotes and people breaking into cars.
Marc:And it just I got enough on my mind with the broad based fear.
Marc:I don't need, you know, I need, there's the micro fears within, the macro fears from without, and then there's the, just around the block fears that I guess they're probably more important than the larger ones, the umbrella fears that we all have because of what's happening in the world.
Marc:But I don't know, trying to get past it, man.
Marc:But I watched some comedy, that was the point.
Marc:I'm trying to like do the one thing that, you know, I've been doing all my life, that is the craft that I have honed with the most diligence.
Marc:and see what i can do see where i can take that what do i got to do to challenge myself and make it exciting next what do i got to do so i watched um i do like watching comedy i i do i do find myself when i go to the comedy store you know going in to see people and like you know i just want to want to get a nice laugh i i could use a nice laugh you know i and i i appreciate getting a nice laugh
Marc:And not everybody can do it to me.
Marc:Like last night, I got a couple of Kyle Dunnigan laughs.
Marc:He brought me up, and he made me laugh a couple times.
Marc:That was good.
Marc:I think he was really the only one I watched for very long.
Marc:But at home, I hooked up my television, and I guess every television comes with Netflix.
Marc:I watched some comedy.
Marc:I watched Brian Regan's new special.
Marc:I always like watching Brian Regan.
Marc:I'm always going to get at least a few deep, solid, can't-stop-it laughter.
Marc:It was a good special.
Marc:I enjoy watching Brian.
Marc:And then I watched Jerry Seinfeld special.
Marc:And I have to be honest with you.
Marc:I have, I don't think I've ever watched him do standup really with, you know, in terms of paying attention.
Marc:I had, I decided that he really wasn't my thing a long time ago as a standup.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I do know why.
Marc:I absolutely do know why.
Marc:Obviously, I'm not taking anything away.
Marc:I'm not going to criticize Jerry Seinfeld.
Marc:He's done all right for himself as a stand-up.
Marc:It was just never my bag.
Marc:I never felt any depth to it.
Marc:And I never felt connected to it because I couldn't tell whether he was really connected to it.
Marc:I thought it was structurally fine, but I don't even think I paid that much attention until the other night when I watched his new special where he goes back to the comic strip and he talks a bit about his life.
Marc:And then I think he was doing classic bits that he did early on.
Marc:But I watched the whole thing because I guess I'm in a space now where I can take it in and not be judgmental and just like, well, why don't you try to appreciate Jerry Seinfeld?
Marc:I mean, it's never too late.
Marc:People love this guy.
Marc:Why don't you take it in?
Marc:I mean, there's plenty of people that are peers of his that you like.
Marc:There's plenty of people that show up in that special who I used to enjoy watching.
Marc:Mark Schiff, who has been on this show, was one of Jerry's early friends.
Marc:I always got a kick out of Mark.
Marc:But I watched Jerry and I saw what he does.
Marc:I see what he does.
Marc:I see the technique.
Marc:I see the structure.
Marc:I see the commitment to to the script and to craft and to what it is exactly that Jerry Seinfeld does, how he builds a bit, how he sort of peppers it all with punchlines and how he talks about.
Marc:things that you would never notice in your, you don't know whether you're happy that he noticed them or not, but now you, now you're going to notice them and maybe get a laugh in the future, I guess is the point.
Marc:It's like, I would have never thought of that.
Marc:Now I am thinking about it.
Marc:And now next time I see that maybe I'll get a little chuckle.
Marc:I'll get a little chuckle and that's not nothing that, you know, helping people get through the day by, you know, laughing at mundane bullshit is, you know, certainly it's, it's in the plus side of,
Marc:But he did say something very interesting that I found very revealing.
Marc:And I think the fundamental difference between whatever he does and whatever I do.
Marc:Again, I'm not comparing myself to him.
Marc:He's had tremendous success as a stand-up.
Marc:But I don't feel that him and I would get along.
Marc:And I don't feel that I'm on his radar.
Marc:But whatever the case is.
Marc:He said something in this special.
Marc:He said, I don't, I'm paraphrasing.
Marc:He said, I don't really care if people like me or not.
Marc:I'm not concerned whether or not people like me.
Marc:I just want them to like the joke.
Marc:which is interesting, isn't it?
Marc:Like, I imagine that I want people to like me.
Marc:Obviously I do.
Marc:I don't think that's necessarily why I do stand up.
Marc:I'm not one of those people that needs love up there.
Marc:Like, you know, I need to feel like I'm alive and present and in the moment and connecting with the audience.
Marc:But I don't know that I'm looking for love, but I am looking to be seen.
Marc:And by by being seen, I mean, I want them to see who I am.
Marc:And it seems to me that is the fundamental difference.
Marc:Like if I do an observational bit, I'm going to put a little bit of me in there, whether it's my neurotic insanity or my paralyzing dread and fear or my my own sort of darkness or my own sort of, you know, obsessive take on.
Marc:On something, it is specifically mine.
Marc:And that is, you know, a big part of my standup.
Marc:I think it's more important to me than the actual writing of the joke.
Marc:So that is the fundamental difference.
Marc:And that is what I always felt about him, is that I just could not...
Marc:figure out who the hell he was, and I'm not sure that was a good thing.
Marc:It felt like, you know, what's that guy hiding?
Marc:What is that guy hiding behind all this talk of nuance, compulsive, observational nuance?
Marc:What's behind that?
Marc:And I guess you see it a little bit, but to me, that moment where he said, I don't care if people like me, which, you know, I will extend to.
Marc:I don't care if they know me.
Marc:Matter of fact, I'd rather they didn't.
Marc:Just...
Marc:laugh at the joke, put it out there.
Marc:It's like, that is the barrage that I put in front of me to protect myself from you.
Marc:Now, I've used comedy to disarm people and to, you know, I've done it defensively.
Marc:I've done it embracingly.
Marc:I've done it a lot of different ways.
Marc:But the point being, in thinking about how I want to do it in the future, I've been experimenting with persistence and creating a sort of nonstop giggling.
Marc:I'm into creating nonstop sort of like giggling in people.
Marc:There are people that can do that.
Marc:It's a very specific thing that comes from a persistence, usually through repetition, where you just sort of get a roll going and you just keep pushing it and pushing and pushing it.
Marc:And I know I can do it.
Marc:but you know i don't do it uh you know consistently and i don't do it necessarily on purpose so i'm going to try to do that on purpose obviously i'm not doing it here i'm not doing it right now i'm talking about doing it right so i saw the disaster artist but maybe i'll talk about that thursday when uh when my guest james franco joins us but today today on the show i talked to greta gerwig the director
Marc:the director of Lady Bird.
Marc:I've seen her in the Noah Baumbach movies.
Marc:Why did I say that like that?
Marc:I've seen her in the other movies she's been in.
Marc:I've seen her in movies, but she directed this film Lady Bird with Saoirse Ronan.
Marc:Is that her name?
Marc:Come on!
Marc:Yes, Saoirse Ronan.
Marc:And I learned how to say her name from watching her monologue on SNL.
Marc:But the movie Lady Bird is a coming-of-age teen movie about a teenage girl.
Marc:And, you know, God knows that that terrain has been explored and there are motifs and tropes.
Marc:And it's a genre in a way.
Marc:I just want to drop some critical terms.
Marc:But somehow or another...
Marc:Greta really humanized and wrote a line with this film that was quite stunning.
Marc:And Tracy Letts is the father and Laurie Metcalf, both of them, you know, Steppenwolf geniuses.
Marc:And Tracy playing a... He's actually the sort of slightly beaten down, benevolent force, sweet force in this movie as the father.
Marc:But it takes place in Sacramento.
Marc:I have some experience with Sacramento, having performed up there and having spent time in Sacramento.
Marc:But ultimately, this movie is a beautiful...
Marc:It's a beautiful little movie about a teenage girl and her parents in Sacramento, you know, growing up, you know, about to finish high school.
Marc:And it just, there's something so natural about it and something so stunning about the performances.
Marc:And the direction was just right on the mark.
Marc:It was really a great, great film.
Marc:And I was excited to talk to her.
Marc:I'm excited when I see a movie and it's great.
Marc:And I get to talk to the person.
Guest:This is me and Greta Gerwig.
Marc:How long have you been out here?
Marc:You came out yesterday?
Guest:Yeah, I've been out here.
Guest:I was out here the week before.
Guest:I'm kind of on a lot of planes right now.
Marc:How do you handle that?
Marc:All right?
Guest:Mostly all right.
Marc:Do you freak out?
Guest:I have minor freakouts.
Marc:Oh, just on takeoff or landing?
Guest:Oh, no, no, no.
Guest:I'm mostly, I'm okay on planes now.
Guest:I mean, it's sort of just like.
Marc:You mean just in life?
Marc:Yes, I thought we were just talking in general.
Marc:General freakouts here and there.
Guest:I've given over to planes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, good for you.
Marc:You've surrendered.
Guest:Have you given over to planes?
Marc:You sort of have to after a certain point unless you want to be exhausted every time you get someplace.
Marc:I know.
Marc:You really don't have control.
Guest:No.
Guest:You have to kind of accept it.
Guest:And I think I had a moment where I was like, you can keep being nervous every time this happens.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Or you can just say, this is your life.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:If this is the way it ends, this is the way it ends.
Marc:I'd rather not.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I'd rather not picture it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I tend to picture it.
Guest:I picture it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I picture it.
Marc:Just the terror, strangers screaming.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:No?
Guest:Please don't remind me.
Guest:No, I actually... I did... A friend of mine, though, said something comforting to me, which doesn't sound comforting, but was comforting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My friend George said...
Guest:Yeah, but if you die in a plane crash, that would be awesome.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And I said, why?
Guest:And he said, well, everyone would say, did you hear about Greta?
Guest:How'd she die?
Guest:And they'd say, a plane crash.
Marc:She was on that plane.
Guest:She was on the plane.
Guest:And I was like, that sounds terrible.
Guest:But also, I'm glad that my friend George thinks it sounds exciting.
Marc:Yeah, he found it comforting.
Guest:Or he sort of thought it sounded... I don't know.
Marc:The one thing a guy said to me once that I found helpful was he said, you know, they're built to fly.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That doesn't comfort me.
Marc:No?
Guest:No.
Marc:They're not just sending them like, I hope this works.
Guest:Planes want to fly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, you've heard that before.
Guest:I don't... For some reason, that doesn't...
Marc:But when you fly a lot, eventually you'll have that horrendous, terrifying flight that you judge.
Marc:That kind of breaks it open for you.
Marc:Like you have a precedent.
Guest:Oh, please.
Marc:I don't want this.
Marc:Not the conversation we want?
Guest:I can't.
Guest:I know it'll happen at some point.
Guest:I mean, just that something will happen.
Guest:I'm just getting really scared.
Marc:No, you'll be fine.
Marc:I'm just talking about turbulence.
Marc:I'm not talking about the worst of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I saw the new movie.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Marc:I've seen you in other movies.
Marc:Like I'm familiar with you.
Guest:You're familiar with me.
Marc:I don't know everything.
Marc:I haven't seen everything.
Guest:I'm so glad you haven't.
Marc:But I've seen enough.
Guest:Okay, good.
Marc:And I worked with Joe Swanberg a couple times.
Guest:Yes, that's right.
Guest:Yes, that's right.
Marc:On his series Easy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I've had Joe in here.
Marc:I don't know if he's still your boyfriend, but I had Noah in here.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:We have common friends, I think.
Marc:At least those two guys.
Marc:I know.
Guest:I talked with Noah this morning.
Marc:About this?
Guest:He said he really liked talking to you.
Marc:He did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:That was a while back.
Guest:Yeah, he says he really, and he doesn't, he's not, he doesn't say that about everything.
Marc:Yeah, I think we connected, I think I got through, you know, he's like a New York guy.
Guest:Yes, yes, he's a New York guy.
Marc:I just saw his New York movie, his new New York, the Meyerowitz story.
Guest:Yeah, it's great.
Marc:It is good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I liked it.
Marc:He got some pretty painfully kind of angry performances out of a couple of funny dudes.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I mean, all of the actors break my heart, but I don't know.
Guest:There's this one line in it where Adam's saying, he says something like, we needed to believe he was a genius, otherwise he was just an asshole.
Yeah.
Marc:which i just that's just the best line but isn't that true with all fathers i mean especially as a guy like you know at some point you know it all breaks down but you know you sort of for a while believe that your dad's pretty great you know it's sort of in the it's in it's part of the rule book
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:You know, I think it's not being a son to a father.
Guest:I don't know that I totally ever quite understood that.
Guest:Intimately.
Guest:I understand it kind of intellectually.
Marc:Well, the breakdown of that is pretty awful.
Marc:As you grow older, whenever it happens where you realize, this guy's kind of...
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Fucking horrible.
Guest:It's all like mini death of a salesman happening all over the country.
Marc:Every day.
Marc:Every day.
Marc:At all times.
Marc:A mini death of a salesman happens every six seconds in America.
Guest:Someone who's like, dad's a schmuck.
Guest:My dad's an asshole.
Marc:So, but you, but your movie seems very personal, this new movie.
Guest:It is, yeah.
Marc:And it seems like that dynamic between your mother, Laurie Metcalf, who's a genius.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And how do you pronounce the actress's name played, I assume you?
Guest:Well, no, actually, you know what's so funny?
Guest:The character she played, her name is Saoirse Ronan.
Marc:Saoirse.
Guest:But actually the Irish way to pronounce it is Saoirse.
Marc:Saoirse Ronan.
Guest:And I heard her explain that to Charlie Rose the other day because we were on Charlie Rose.
Guest:And then the whole interview, then I also called her Saoirse.
Guest:And then she said, why did you just change the way you say my name?
Guest:And I was like, well, I just felt like if Charlie was going to say it that way, I had to match it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, maybe she wasn't you, but she did a very good job.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:It was funny.
Guest:We actually have talked a lot about this, obviously, making the movie, but now also doing press.
Marc:On the junket?
Guest:In a way, it was sort of the opposite of me.
Guest:I was not a... I mean, in the movie, for someone who doesn't know, everybody call her by the name Lady Bird, and that's not her name.
Guest:I never made anyone do that.
Guest:I never...
Marc:But what about the dynamic between the mother and, because that was very specific.
Marc:That's sort of where we were coming off the father-son thing.
Guest:Yes, yes, yes.
Guest:That, I mean, I definitely had a very complicated but very rich, loving relationship with my mom that was just, in teenage years, we just fought.
Guest:And the thing is, I kind of remember the broad strokes of the fight, but I don't actually remember the details of a lot of the fights.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't remember what exactly all the issues were, but I remember fighting.
Marc:But it's a very painful relationship, that one, in the movie because it's persistent and it's repetitive emotional dismissal and belittling and manipulation.
Yeah.
Marc:And the challenge is to find that character, to have empathy for that character, right?
Marc:But you do.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, I guess I've always sort of seen the character of the mother and the way the relationship is playing out is like, we're meeting them at this moment and it hasn't always been this way.
Guest:And that even though it's bad,
Guest:bad right now but still within that context her mom's still always helping her out and making sure that everything is as good as it can be even while she's completely frustrated and not sure that her daughter is ready for the world and I think that that's the thing that makes it so understandable is like that still doing anything for her
Marc:Right, but there's an emotional price to pay for a character like that, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:In the sense, and the fact that Saoirse, that her awareness of it in the film, that she knew that her mom had this problem.
Marc:She didn't know what exactly it was, but she knew that as herself became more defined, that she was up against this.
Marc:So it didn't feel all out, it didn't feel like emotional abuse for the whole.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because she was struggling with her mom's persistence of belittling her, really.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think, too, it's like the thing or the way I think about it, too, is like...
Guest:The dynamic of, to me, in some ways, the way I write is so... I allow myself to kind of do things unconsciously.
Guest:And then I try to craft them after I've done it unconsciously.
Guest:And the part that I...
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:You stream of consciousness or you just sort of blow it out?
Guest:Not stream of consciousness, but I have the distinct experience of tapping into something where I can just...
Guest:Right and right and right and it doesn't feel like I am doing the choosing of the words, which I'm sure everyone who writes at some point feels like that.
Guest:And then I come back to it later and it's almost a sense of I don't know who wrote this and now I have to make it into something that has form.
Marc:That's good that you can do that.
Guest:It's good.
Guest:It's good, but it's odd and it doesn't make you... There's an odd disconnect with it.
Guest:Because in a way, it's like you've found something that someone's left.
Marc:Well, that's better than being sort of self-conscious about something you've done as it's happening.
Marc:It's nice that you can kind of blurt it out wherever it comes from and then work with it as opposed to sort of like over every sentence.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, I can't.
Guest:There are moments where I just, once I start structuring those things and making them have more form, I have to then move it from A to B. And I do have some just teeth pulling moments of getting story down.
Guest:But for the most part, it comes out like that.
Guest:And so in some ways, I have this strange experience with a script of knowing that it works on the page, but also...
Guest:I have a certain amount of mystery to what I'm saying and how these characters function.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And when I have great actors, they give me more understanding of what it is I've written, and that informs how I'm going to direct it.
Guest:And there's just a scene where Saoirse is... It's a bad moment, and she's...
Guest:She's trying to get her mom to talk to her and her mom won't talk to her.
Guest:And then all of a sudden the character starts yelling at herself.
Guest:She starts saying everything her mom has said, but her mom isn't even saying it.
Guest:She's saying it.
Guest:And I knew kind of that that's what I had written.
Guest:But the first time I saw Laurie and Saoirse rehearse that scene, I was like, oh, that's the thing is your parents don't even need to do it to you.
Guest:You will do it to yourself.
Marc:That's the worst.
Guest:The rest of your life.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You will have those tapes playing.
Marc:Forever.
Marc:And even if left to your own devices, if you want to create just out of necessity a parent in your mind that's different than the one you have, it's not going to give you a break either.
Guest:No.
Guest:You're doomed.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:But ultimately, I feel that why Laurie and why this relationship is something that you sympathize with and understand, even though you're frustrated with it, is that I think I see Laurie as creating a character who, despite...
Guest:making mistakes and not not doing everything perfectly that she actually does give her enough good things enough courage to go do what she needs to do right so she didn't squash her
Marc:Right.
Marc:But there's also that weird, you know, the element, because it's really just a coming of age story, right?
Marc:Is that what you would call the, it's about a teenager.
Guest:Well, I've always sort of, the way I looked at it, or like conceptually, I looked at it was like, I wanted it to be one person's coming of age is another person's letting go.
Guest:And I wanted it to be with just as much attention on the letting go side of it as the coming of age side of it, which often I think movies about teenagers,
Guest:The adults are just sort of played as jokes.
Marc:Right, right, just kind of like stereotypes.
Guest:Yeah, and especially with not just parents, but then also teachers or other figures in their life.
Guest:Yeah, and I wanted every person to feel like...
Marc:they they're in their own story yeah I thought that was a pretty amazing you know because I like seeing Tracy Letts do anything me too and Laurie Metcalf so like it was pretty dynamic for me and I love the movie um and I you know and I don't love all movies but like I didn't I didn't know like you know a lot of times I talk to people whose movies I thought were okay yeah I try to find something nice to say
Marc:But right when people start singing, I start crying.
Marc:I don't know why it just happens.
Guest:Singing.
Marc:Singing.
Guest:Singing.
Guest:Me too.
Marc:Really?
Guest:That's why I love musicals.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I don't even know what it is.
Marc:I don't see a lot of them, but every time I watch, even when the kids were just singing, when they were auditioning, I'm like, oh, good.
Marc:I don't even know.
Guest:That's how I feel.
Marc:What do you think that is?
Marc:Why?
Guest:Because it's so vulnerable, right?
Guest:It's so vulnerable.
Guest:It's so sincere.
Guest:There's something about singing, particularly people singing who are not great singers.
Marc:The kids were great.
Guest:I mean, there's nothing more just raw than that.
Guest:And I still love going to see high school musicals when I'm home in Sacramento.
Guest:I'll go see the local high schools put on musicals.
Marc:Do you sing?
Yeah.
Guest:I don't sing well, but I do.
Marc:You let yourself?
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:I let myself sing.
Marc:That's right, you sang in the, you kind of were jumping around and rocking out in that movie with Annette Bening.
Guest:Yeah, I did, but I really sang in Greenberg.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I saw that.
Guest:I sang a Judy Sill song in Greenberg.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Was that a party or something?
Marc:Like, where did it happen?
Guest:My character sort of wants to be a singer, and she invited Greenberg to go see her sing at the Silver Lake Lounge.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Now I'm remembering.
Guest:She sings that Judy Sill song.
Marc:So you do sing?
Guest:I do sing.
Guest:I mean, I can carry a tune.
Guest:I was in choir in high school.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:But I was always second soprano, so it's always, that's like, you don't get the melody, you get the harmony, so you're kind of singing the other thing, and it's just kind of like, you don't ever get to soar.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:I was terrified of it.
Marc:I like to sing, but I was terrified of it for so long.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's scary.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know why, you know, it's just a matter of like, you don't think you're going to do it well, but people, if you do it, you know, honestly, people will respond if you're not horrible.
Marc:And then even then people are relatively sympathetic depending on the venue.
Marc:And if you're not singing the national anthem.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I think it's very, it's very appealing.
Guest:And I've also always liked, um, you know, that my favorite musical theater singers have in a way peculiar voices.
Guest:Like who?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, like, you know, Elaine Stritch is, it's not a straight ahead, beautiful voice.
Guest:There's something else there.
Guest:Even Bernadette Peters is.
Marc:Well, those two like are on the kind of cabaret-ish.
Marc:I don't know a lot about musicals, but there's a, you know, there's a character to it.
Guest:There's a character to it.
Guest:I mean, Elaine will talk, sing.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:We actually, Saoirse and I talked about, when she sings Everybody Says Don't in the movie for her audition, there's an Elaine Stritch version of singing Everybody Says Don't.
Guest:And she talks through the whole thing and she kind of runs everything together.
Guest:And Saoirse was sort of doing a version of that.
Marc:Yeah, it was great because the funny thing about that audition and just in terms of who she is and what you're building that character into is that she owned it so well you thought for sure she'd get it and she doesn't because the guy was like, all right.
Marc:Yeah, you got a showboat.
Marc:She needs to be, you know, harnessed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Humbled.
Guest:It's just too much.
Guest:Everything's too much.
Guest:That character is kind of living on the edge of a cliff always.
Guest:And that's what I love about her.
Guest:But it's amazing to watch her fling herself at stuff.
Yeah.
Marc:And also you maintained a sort of innocence that, you know, we've grown to think is no longer there.
Marc:That, you know, the assumption is like, you know, these kids today, they've got access to everything.
Marc:But this is 2002, right?
Guest:This is 2002.
Marc:So it's a little different.
Marc:A little different.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:I just realized that as I was saying it.
Guest:I mean, well, one thing that I did on set, and I took this from Noah, it's something he does, and it's a great policy on set, is no one had any cell phones.
Guest:Because I don't like cell phones on set, because if you need to make a phone call or text someone, you can leave set and go do it there.
Guest:But there's nothing that bums you out more than looking over and seeing...
Marc:Everybody.
Guest:Everybody texting in between.
Guest:And someone said to me, oh, good luck with that.
Guest:With the younger kids in your cast, they're attached to their phones.
Guest:And actually, I think for them, it was such a relief not to have to deal with their phones and that they loved it.
Guest:They all left their phones in their trailer and then they were totally present.
Guest:Because they had to.
Guest:They had to.
Guest:But then they really enjoyed it.
Guest:And I sort of re, I made them innocent again.
Guest:Yeah, that's great.
Guest:I think, I mean, obviously there's like,
Guest:The internet giving you access to all kinds of things.
Guest:But one thing is, yeah, everybody knows things all the time now.
Guest:And I don't know.
Marc:But there is a context to childhood that you can't, like you're not going to fill it up more than it can be filled up.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Guest:That's true.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like their range of interest and what they're going to take in and what they can take in is relative to the brain at that age, not to how much is out there.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So that's right.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:There's only just a certain amount.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:And so they may have thought of it that way.
Marc:And so they maintain it naturally.
Marc:Naturally.
Marc:Because they're sort of like, I don't know what that is.
Marc:I'm not going to deal with that.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Although, I mean, I even remember, though, like when I came to college, I went to college in New York and I remember having this sense of like...
Guest:where did everybody hear about the cool cool stuff right like i don't know that like i actually literally don't know where you would have heard of that yeah and like the guy the guys who somehow at 18 already knew all the cool well they were they were not in sacramento yeah and maybe they had more of a i don't know how to it was definitely an exposure issue
Guest:Yes, there was an exposure issue, which is less now because of the internet.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:And that thing of like getting information through magazines is something I was, I kept trying to explain to the cast of like, there was a time when you would have, that was where the cool stuff was.
Marc:You got it?
Marc:Yeah, every month.
Guest:In the magazine.
Guest:I always remember 17 Magazine was, I mean, they would, obviously the people who made 17 Magazine were people who lived in New York or L.A.
Guest:and stuff and they knew.
Guest:But it was this disconnect between what clearly the editors knew about and then what we were hearing on the radio.
Guest:So there would be like this, you know,
Guest:Bjork being really cool.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But we never heard Bjork on the radio.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where would you hear Bjork?
Marc:That's right.
Guest:It was a sort of strange.
Marc:You'd have to go seek it out somewhere.
Guest:But like I knew about Bjork from 17 would do a sidebar on her.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like how do I get that?
Guest:But like studying magazines.
Guest:I mean, but I like that idea of sort of like this moment where all of this stuff is rising, but it's not there yet.
Guest:It felt like, I mean, it's actually like, it's a little bit after when I was actually in high school, but it felt like a way to talk about now without actually having to shoot smartphones, which I didn't want to shoot at all.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And also, right.
Marc:You had a flip phone or two in there.
Guest:I have like a couple of kids had flip phones, but I just like that feeling of, I don't know, not knowing where someone is.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know how we did it.
Marc:It's a very weird thing how quickly and how effectively these technological conveniences have consumed our extensions.
Marc:There are extensions of ourselves and that now the idea that you would come home at the end of the day and listen to your machine.
Guest:I know.
Guest:What?
Marc:Let me just check my messages.
Marc:Let me check my messages.
Marc:Remember when you could check it on your phone with the tone?
Marc:It's sort of like, wow, this is the greatest.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I'm checking my messages on my phone from another phone.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And you could see if anyone had called.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, I mean, it was something that we talked about a lot, even in terms of production design, of like...
Guest:And before everybody had a Pinterest page and, you know, there was, you know, you would have the furniture that would be around you would be stuff that you would have gotten when you got married or from your grandmother.
Guest:And then, you know, you could like Sears and pennies and maybe there's a Costco or you could buy a computer chair.
Guest:But, like, the stuff that was around you was, like, pre-Ikea, pre, like, kind of design in the way that we experience design now.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Design's very accessible and completely turned out now.
Marc:It's, like, everywhere.
Guest:Yes, everywhere.
Marc:But even, you know, like, everyone celebrating Target.
Marc:But, yeah, and Sacramento also is this sort of this weird kind of, you know,
Marc:A middle America city in California.
Marc:I've been there several times.
Marc:I dated a woman briefly for a few years from Sacramento.
Guest:Did you ever do stand up in Sacramento?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:At the Punchline.
Marc:At the Punchline.
Marc:At the Arden Mall.
Marc:Across from the Arden.
Marc:What is it?
Guest:Arden Fair Mall.
Marc:Is it Arden Fair?
Guest:Arden Fair.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And I stayed at the horrible condos across from the Arden Fair Mall.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And I wandered around that mall.
Marc:I used to go up there fairly frequently to the Punchline.
Marc:It's right next to the mattress store on the second floor of that strip mall there.
Guest:There's a number of comedians who come through.
Guest:We all did.
Guest:My dad was always interested in comedy.
Guest:He always had comedy albums and stuff, and he'd go see people who came through.
Marc:Well, it's a very healthy.
Marc:That was a good club.
Marc:And there was a very healthy comedy scene out of San Francisco.
Guest:Right.
Marc:That ran a lot of people through there.
Marc:And all the major headliners would play Punch Y in Sacramento.
Marc:It's a big room.
Marc:You could make some money.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:If you could sell some tickets.
Marc:There used to be that 50s diner.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Right there in that strip mall.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then it went away and I was sort of upset because it was open late.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:This is all... And it's all right by the fairgrounds.
Marc:Yeah, the fairgrounds.
Guest:The state fairgrounds.
Guest:There's something about growing up in a place where the state fair is a really big deal.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Even though Sacramento is the capital and it's a city, but it does have sort of a small town feeling and that definitely connected to the agricultural roots of California and it's in the Central Valley of the Agricultural Valley.
Guest:I remember so much...
Guest:My childhood was like being excited for state fair and then just loving state fair and then being bummed when it was done.
Guest:But there's like, you know.
Marc:Because they had the midway and they had.
Guest:Serious livestock competitions.
Guest:Kids would come in and they were like, I've raised this pig.
Guest:I love my pig.
Guest:And it was always exciting.
Guest:And then there was also this thing of like, if an animal was about to give birth, like a cow or a pig.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It would be they'd put them in this area where you could just keep watch on them.
Guest:And then one you'd wait for hours and hours.
Guest:They're like, it's coming.
Guest:You'd watch a cow give birth.
Guest:And then this little cow would come out and just just be so gooey, but so cute and instantly start walking.
Guest:And it was amazing.
Marc:It'd be like a 14-year-old with a cowboy hat on.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And his boots with his dad dealing with shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there was also this thing, this amazing thing.
Guest:They had the county exhibits.
Guest:It was in one of those big expo rooms.
Guest:And every county would make their own life-size diorama.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Which was always just... I just loved it.
Guest:And it was kind of...
Guest:It was kind of, I don't know who judged the county exhibits, but I always felt like L.A.
Guest:did not put as much effort into it as they could have, given it was like.
Marc:That was supposed to be the creative.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But they sort of just had a California raisin and were like, we're done.
Marc:Sure, and every other county was like, we're going to beat L.A.
Guest:Yeah, and it was like Yolo County.
Guest:It was incredible.
Guest:And like Mendocino County.
Marc:What were they, exhibits?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Representing the county.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like what is it about the county like trout or that's all I can think of is trout or, you know, the redwoods or, you know, whatever the county in California was.
Guest:And, you know, California is such a big state.
Marc:I grew up in Albuquerque, and they had the New Mexico State Fair, and it was kind of a big deal.
Marc:There was a bit of the rodeo business, but not a lot of agriculture, but there was also indigenous people.
Marc:You'd go, and there was that whole area where you'd go get Indian fried bread and had Indian jewelry.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Marc:And then there was the Midway and they had like the babies in a jar and the freak show and a couple of rides.
Marc:And then there was the horses and the exhibition halls and then rodeos and concerts with Roy Clark and Buck Owens and Willie Nelson and George Jones.
Marc:That sounds like fun.
Marc:I didn't do all that.
Marc:You didn't do all of that.
Marc:But we'd go to the fair.
Marc:You go to the fair.
Marc:Get the Indian fry bread.
Guest:We'd get the two week pass so you could go to the fair every day.
Yeah.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, they had this area called the farm where there'd be agricultural.
Guest:There's always a thing in Sacramento, particularly in Davis, trying to create an avocado tree that will stay alive during the winter.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:California, Northern California, the avocado trees will grow, but they will not produce avocado fruit because the winters it drops down to be too cold.
Guest:So there's always like big avocado.
Marc:Problem.
Guest:Shortage.
Guest:Exhibits about trying to keep them warm and avocado trees wrapped in blankets.
Marc:Isn't it weird what makes an impression on you that you remembered that?
Marc:That there's an avocado problem.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the way it was illustrated is something you've held on to your entire life.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because there was something about the device of warming the avocados that was ingenious to you.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I mean, the whole thing.
Guest:It's so funny because it's just like that where the comedy club was, where Arden Fair is, where the fairgrounds are, all of that.
Guest:I mean, the fair, it's just one of those things in my life where the state fair was such a magical kingdom to me when I was growing up.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And then as an adult and when definitely when the state fair is not going on, fairgrounds don't look like anything.
Guest:It's impossible to explain why this was so meaningful.
Marc:They're like dormant and they're waiting.
Marc:They're just sort of like, look, it's all going to be happening in a year.
Guest:I know.
Marc:But now nothing's going on there.
Guest:I know.
Marc:And there's always like one or two cars.
Marc:And you're like, what are those people doing there?
Guest:I know.
Guest:I wanted to.
Guest:I mean, maybe I'll make a movie that has the state fair in it because I had wanted to put a state fair in the movie, but it just didn't make it in.
Guest:It had no place.
Guest:It would just be completely unnecessary.
Marc:But you did, it was sort of a bit of a weird love letter to Sacramento.
Guest:Yes, definitely.
Guest:I mean, it's a love letter through the eyes of somebody who thinks she wants to get out, but then looking back, it's like, oh no, that was my life.
Marc:I get a little choked up just thinking about that.
Marc:What she said to her mother, the driving.
Guest:The driving, I know.
Guest:It's a killer.
Guest:It's a killer.
Guest:I think that's one of the things about particularly being a teenager is you just have this certainty that life is going on somewhere else and you're just positive about it.
Guest:And then you get to the place that, for whatever reason, you think life is, and then you think, oh, no, this is not it.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Wait, maybe it never happens.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Or maybe it's... Did you feel that?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I feel like I'm trying to think.
Marc:So did you have siblings?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I have an older brother, older sister.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you grew up in Sacramento your whole life?
Guest:Whole life, yeah.
Guest:My parents still live there.
Guest:My brother lives there with his family.
Guest:My sister lives in Berkeley with her family.
Marc:And what do they do?
Guest:My mother's retired.
Marc:She was a nurse?
Guest:She was a nurse.
Guest:She was actually an OBGYN nurse.
Guest:And my dad works for a credit union.
Guest:He does small... I don't know how to explain his position.
Guest:He does small business loans.
Guest:He sort of vets them and...
Marc:So you kind of base these characters in the movie pretty close.
Guest:Pretty close, yeah.
Marc:And what do your brothers do, the siblings?
Guest:Well, my sister works for the EEOC of California, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.
Guest:And my brother is a landscape architect, but he does like sort of...
Guest:Kind of like more large scale things, like if you're going to build a freeway, how do you preserve the plant life?
Guest:That kind of thing.
Guest:Problem solving.
Guest:Not personal landscape architecture.
Marc:Not like, I really want a pond.
Marc:No.
Guest:I mean, I think he can do that, but I think maybe he moved away from it.
Marc:Why wouldn't you?
Guest:He drives a truck.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Trucks are good.
Marc:Trucks are Sacramento.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Get the truck.
Marc:You got to have a truck if you're a landscape designer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Landscape architect.
Guest:Driving out to sites.
Marc:So that's sort of a creative thing.
Marc:But you went full on like, I got to get out of here.
Marc:I'm going to be an actress.
Marc:What?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Well, they all were creative.
Guest:My sister, she was a really gifted artist and also a gifted writer.
Guest:She still writes.
Guest:But I decided to do it for my job, which I think was scary for everybody.
Marc:Everybody involved.
Marc:Everybody involved.
Marc:Yeah, they're concerned.
Marc:It's hard to be a parent, I think, and not worry about somebody who wants to pursue the arts.
Guest:It feels like you're just letting your kid sign up for disappointment forever.
Marc:And that could be the way it goes.
Guest:Yeah, it's true.
Guest:I'm qualified to do some things because my mom was worried that I would not have a... But when I was a teenager, I became a certified step aerobics instructor and also a certified paralegal.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yeah, so that I could help.
Marc:Because your mom was like, you've got to have something to fall back on.
Guest:You've got to have a trade.
Yeah.
Guest:And step aerobics was kind of a big deal at that moment.
Guest:So I'm one of the, I think, youngest step aerobics instructors.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Did you get a plaque?
Marc:Do you have a plaque?
Guest:I got a certificate.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:16.
Marc:So you're 16 and you're just sort of standing in front of a room full of, I imagine, women doing the step aerobics.
Guest:Doing some step aerobics.
Guest:Being chipper?
Guest:It's just a lot of choreography.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:It's a performance.
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Guest:And...
Marc:And what does a paralegal do exactly?
Guest:Well, I never actually did it, but I took the class at Sacramento City College to get certified, but I never was hired as a paralegal.
Guest:But I think it's a lot of stuff where you sort of have to know you are not authorized to make contracts, but you know about the law enough that you can look for cases to support things.
Guest:I'm making this up.
Marc:Yeah, they know a lot about the law and they can organize things for the lawyers.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:I think I think I remember someone telling her that if I didn't technically need a pair of a certificate that I had a certificate.
Marc:Good.
Marc:So and you still have that.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Do you refresh it every year just in case?
Guest:No, no, I should, just in case this goal doesn't work out.
Guest:But yeah, I mean, being in our, I mean, your family must have also been like a little.
Marc:I guess, you know, I don't know.
Marc:I think they were all pretty self-involved.
Marc:There wasn't a lot of.
Marc:You know, they're just sort of like, he seems like he's doing all right.
Guest:He seems okay.
Marc:He seems to be confident.
Marc:Let him go ahead and do this.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Whatever the hell he's doing.
Marc:But yeah, it took a long time for it to work out.
Marc:I think they were worried.
Marc:But what good is that going to do anybody?
Marc:They can't forbid you.
Marc:They can.
Marc:Are they going to forbid you out of their own fear?
Guest:Right.
Marc:Which I think the mother character does a bit of in a way.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Guest:I mean, I think...
Guest:I guess you could forbid, you could sort of say, I'm not, if you're going to, like, now we won't, you know.
Marc:Support you.
Marc:Support you.
Marc:Like, you know, you're on your own.
Marc:You're on your own.
Marc:Thank God you have your paralegal license and you can be a staff instructor.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:And when you go to New York.
Guest:Yeah, when you go to New York.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And all that talk of UC Davis, like I've performed at UC Davis too.
Guest:UC Davis, I mean, my brother went there.
Marc:It's a good school, I think, as far as the state schools go.
Guest:It's a very good school.
Guest:It's just that it was close.
Guest:That was the essence of her complaint is that it's close.
Marc:You can't get away.
Marc:You're not far away.
Guest:It's too close.
Guest:Someone could drop in on you.
Marc:It's so funny that you handled like, you know, there were those tropes of these kind of movies.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you did them, like you said, you went a little more in depth because I do think that they're real events in teenage life.
Marc:They are.
Marc:And, you know, it is easy to sort of, you know, make them hacky.
Marc:And you did not do that.
Guest:I tried not to.
Marc:No, it was great.
Marc:It was very touching.
Marc:The old best friend, the real best friend, and the shitty new best friend.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the lying, the shame of this girl and her mother.
Marc:And it was all class shame.
Guest:Yeah, there's a lot of class shame.
Marc:Yeah, and so you leave Sacramento after doing your paralegal classes and you got into Columbia?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, Barnard College.
Marc:You got into Barnard?
Guest:And I was at Barnard.
Marc:Did it work the way it did in the movie where you got some loan or scholarship or how'd it go?
Guest:Yeah, there was like a combination of things that enabled me to go to Barnard, which I eventually, I remember there was a moment in my mid-20s when I was able to pay off a lot of it all at once and it felt...
Guest:Amazing.
Marc:Did you get it all paid off now?
Guest:It's all paid off, and it was the best feeling of my life.
Guest:So good, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm so grateful that certain breaks happened for me and that I was able to do that because it really is a crushing feeling.
Marc:It hangs over you.
Guest:It does.
Guest:Did you have that experience?
Marc:No, I did not.
Marc:My parents had a little bread.
Marc:But the house, this was my first house.
Marc:And when I got it, there was no way I was going to pay it off.
Marc:And then at some point, I'm like, I'm going to pay it.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Oh, that's exciting.
Guest:Somebody, a friend of mine just bought an apartment and said, oh, I've just bought a lot of debt.
Guest:And I thought, oh, that's true.
Guest:It is that.
Marc:Yeah, you don't feel like you really own it.
Marc:And then when you really do own it, you're like...
Marc:All right, so it's mine, now what?
Marc:Now what?
Guest:I know.
Marc:But so what do you study at Barnard?
Guest:I did, I eventually majored, I majored in English literature and philosophy.
Marc:What was the focus in English?
Marc:Did they make you focus on a period?
Guest:Yeah, I was really into sort of Renaissance and medieval studies stuff.
Guest:I really liked.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Like the Canterbury Tales?
Guest:Yeah, but I was really into Shakespeare and Milton and other Renaissance dramatists.
Guest:And then I had a great, I just had, I had a lot of great professors who kind of blew my mind.
Marc:That's what they're supposed to do.
Guest:And I didn't have a chip on my... I think sometimes some of the people I knew who came to college had gone to the sort of high school that gave them what college gave me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so they were bored by college.
Guest:But I had not heard of any of this and I was thrilled.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like, where am I?
Guest:I was like, Nietzsche, shut up.
Guest:This is crazy.
Yeah.
Guest:I was reading it for the first time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, this is great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or, you know, Foucault.
Marc:Yeah, who was this guy?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like any of those guys who just sort of like burst the world open.
Marc:Could you wrap your brain around it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I actually, I still remember having a very...
Guest:that feeling of satisfaction when something that felt impenetrable clicks into place.
Guest:And I also, I don't remember, I remember struggling with texts and then going into class and feeling like I had had a hunch of what it was about and then it was confirmed for me.
Guest:But that, it's a very, I think if you've ever had that satisfaction of
Guest:struggling with something and then having it suddenly make sense to you.
Marc:Just open up.
Guest:It's a thing you look for continually in your life.
Marc:Yeah, I've had it with poetry.
Marc:I've had it with some things.
Marc:I don't know if I've had it a lot, but it sounds similar to your writing process.
Guest:It is.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:And I think it also... I remember talking to a professor who was very wonderful who taught Lacan, a philosophy philosopher.
Guest:And I remember going to her office hours once and I was just... He has all these sort of equations, which I didn't totally understand.
Guest:And I remember asking her, she was French.
Guest:I said, why...
Guest:Lacan, why is Lacan your person?
Guest:And she said, because it is difficult.
Guest:And I thought, that's a really good answer.
Guest:Because if you're going to spend all your life working on something, it's nice that it be difficult.
Marc:Right, and it keep revealing itself.
Marc:You never quite get to the bottom of it.
Guest:And that's how I feel.
Guest:Filmmaking feels that way.
Marc:I think that's right.
Guest:It's difficult.
Marc:Yeah, I like this.
Guest:You never...
Guest:you won't run out of ways to improve and, and, and you will never get on top of it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But also, you know, it's still your form of expression.
Marc:So like, instead of thinking about improving or getting on top of like, you can like surprise yourself with the writing and you're like, Oh my God, like, I guess that's why I do comedy.
Marc:It's a little more immediate, but certainly there's discovery, constant discovery, you know, that happens on stage in the moment in conversation where it's sort of like, I wonder if I can get that to work again.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And I think too, I think, I mean, I've never done comedy like the way you do like stand up or anything like that.
Guest:But I've always really loved listening to comedians talk and I like comedians a lot because it's that high altitude learning.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You never learn anything faster in your life.
Yeah.
Guest:Because the stakes are so high.
Guest:And I feel like there's something about that that I... The stakes are high.
Marc:High-ish.
Guest:They're high because it's your ego.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's not like if we don't pull this off, a lot of people are going to die.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:It's high altitude inside yourself.
Marc:Oh, no, absolutely.
Marc:Because failure is imminent.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's right there.
Guest:It's like yourself can crumble in front of you, but also publicly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Right away.
Marc:Like right away.
Guest:Instantly.
Marc:But part of the job is getting numb to that.
Marc:Yes, that's right.
Marc:And moving through that and just taking the hit.
Marc:I thought about that even last night.
Marc:I did a set at the comedy store.
Marc:And the audience was demanding.
Marc:And they meant business.
Marc:And sometimes on a Wednesday night, I don't necessarily mean business for 15 minutes.
Marc:I kind of want to fucking just be loose.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:But there was a moment there where there were these loud, drunk people talking right there.
Marc:And I'm like, you know, I knew this was good.
Marc:I said to him, I knew you were going to be a problem.
Marc:I had an instinct about it because I've been doing this a long time.
Marc:And they gave me stink eye.
Marc:And I felt it there.
Marc:And I just focused in on an audience that was sort of like, all right, so you shut them up.
Marc:Now what?
Marc:And you just, I felt that menace.
Marc:And then I realized, like, I'm a professional.
Marc:And if they don't fucking laugh, I don't really, whatever.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:no it'll come around yeah I know this shit's funny so like if I'm gonna take a hit for you know schooling those drunks right fine right that's yeah that's amazing professional it's a professionalism that you know you have it too and what you do well that's I remember reading I mean that that that that born standing up when he talks about kind of failing and failing is that Steve Martin yeah I didn't read it yeah
Guest:Oh, well, he has this thing about talking about how you sort of get this armor and they know they can't touch you anymore.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Because you have seen the worst.
Marc:That's a great feeling.
Guest:I mean, I think in a way, actually, for me, it's it's not that I mean, I still have the ability to, you know, I'm still can be, you know, sensitive about stuff I've made.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think because I've acted and written and made stuff for a long time, I've learned to not be quite so invested in the moment of whatever is going on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because either way, they'll go away.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but I mean, film stays around.
Guest:The film will stay around, but the feeling of, like, I have gotten bad reviews.
Guest:Like, you get used to it.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, fuck it, man.
Marc:You get used to it.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's sort of like, and then you just sort of learn from it and you move on.
Marc:And a lot of times in what you do, if you're not at the helm, you know, this is not on you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:necessarily.
Guest:That's true, but this one is.
Marc:No, this one is, right, sure.
Marc:But you know what I mean.
Marc:Yes, yes, yes.
Marc:There are projects, I would imagine, as an actor, where you're like, yeah, the movie's okay, but I think I did pretty good.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:But you sort of came up through this world of...
Marc:You know, I mean, Swanberg's world, Duplass world, you know, I don't know, like, it seemed like there was a great deal of effort put on certain outlets to make it a separate world of film, but it is just a variety of independent film, right?
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's stylized and improvised a lot of it, but it is still, yeah, it is, like, I don't know who the mumblecore people are, what that means, really.
Marc:neither do i but you know there are certain people that are like swanberg's great at it he has a way of doing it and it's pretty it's pretty wild yeah to to the way that he directs you know in the moment to you know because you know you're given because i've done two episodes of easy so i you know i've you know you're literally writing with him yes that's right that's right
Marc:But the way he has to conceive of how these shots fit together in his head to make the thing function, you know, continuity wise is sort of fascinating.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean.
Marc:How many movies did you do with him?
Guest:We did two movies together.
Guest:We did Hannah Takes the Stairs and Nights and Weekends.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that very kind of real commitment to improvisation as the organizing principle of it, he was the most extreme version of that.
Guest:Like the Duplass brothers, they did a lot of improvisation, but it was still more structured than what Swanberg was doing.
Marc:Well, the thing about Swanberg is sort of like, you know, he's discovering the fucking story.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:As it's happening.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:As it's happening.
Marc:And that's ballsy.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You know, and then you realize like, well, a lot of this is on me.
Guest:Yeah, it's on you.
Guest:In a way, I always said it was a way I could write while I was acting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was part of the task.
Marc:Did you do any training in acting after your philosophy in English?
Guest:oh well i mean this is this is it says the full story is it's really hot i i've done a lot of different things so so i didn't i didn't major in theater but i did a lot of acting so it's a lot of playwriting and particularly playwriting in college but we were very lucky at barnard and and columbia but both of us together that we had a lot of julia professors who were teaching and in our drama department so all of them main acting instructors from julia were also teaching classes to us
Guest:So I had the benefit of these really great acting teachers.
Guest:And they were the first ones who said to me, you should take a playwriting class.
Guest:You seem to be really interested in writing because I was sort of writing my own monologues and stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then so I started taking writing classes from these Juilliard writing teachers.
Guest:And so I was I was very I was doing like, you know, whatever, an entire semester on Chekhov for an entire semester on Shakespeare with acting.
Guest:And then I was also taking playwriting classes.
Guest:And then I was also doing a lot of there's a show at Columbia called The Varsity Show.
Guest:Uh huh.
Guest:which is the show to be part of.
Guest:It's all the cool comedy kids do it.
Guest:And it's an original musical written and performed every year.
Guest:I remember I showed it to a boyfriend who had not been at school with me after.
Guest:And he said, whoa, you guys put a lot of effort into this.
Guest:And I said, we certainly did.
Guest:But it was, that was, you know, a big part of my experience too.
Guest:But I, so I had, I was, I wanted to be a playwright.
Guest:And then I got rejected from Yale, NYU and Juilliard.
Guest:Playwriting for graduate for graduate school.
Guest:And then I and then but I had already sort of started working on these movies.
Guest:And I had also, as a sidebar, fallen in love with cinema, which I hadn't really been exposed to as an art form until I was in college.
Guest:So I wasn't making a living making those movies with Joe or the Duplass brothers.
Guest:And I had no idea how this was all going to really shake out over time.
Guest:But it became almost like a film school for me.
Guest:And in a way, I found...
Guest:on all levels as an actor as a writer and as a director and also just as as a as a how like what you were saying before like how are they constructed do you do you need an extra shot between this and this because it was also everyone was editing at night yeah so joe would edit at night but also when i shot with the duplass brothers their editor jay dubie would work at night and then we would come back the next day and realize we needed some connective tissue between this thing or that thing and
Guest:So that was a big part of learning how stuff was put together.
Guest:But I had never really lost my taste for something that was quite written and something that felt like a piece of writing that existed that you were trying to work on that was outside of improvisation.
Guest:And then when I read...
Guest:I was writing already, but then I remember when I read the script for Greenberg, which I auditioned for, I thought, that's it.
Guest:This is the kind of- Right.
Marc:You can write this thing that these guys are kind of noodling with.
Guest:I wanted to do that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I knew I loved Noah's other films.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But then when I read that, it was a feeling that I got a couple of times with different writers where-
Guest:I thought I didn't write that, but boy, do I wish I had.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I felt that way when I read Kenneth Lonergan's plays for the first time.
Guest:Well, you know, when I read his plays, I had that very strongly.
Guest:There are people whose genius eludes me until I see it on stage.
Guest:Like I felt that way about this playwright, Carol Churchill.
Guest:I didn't understand until I saw it.
Guest:And then I was like, oh.
Marc:I have a hard time with scripts in general, like really picturing them properly.
Guest:It can be hard.
Marc:Yeah, like some people can just do it.
Marc:Like for me, I end up not paying attention to direction.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So I just go voice to voice and then I start to, like I can't, it's hard for me to conceive of what's happening.
Guest:I think when I read Greenberg, it was the first time I had read a film script that felt like a piece of writing that I could understand just fully as a piece of writing.
Marc:And also because it's like generationally, it's not far away from you.
Guest:It's not far away from me.
Guest:And it's also, he takes time with the stage directions.
Marc:Oh, he does.
Guest:Yeah, like everything's beautiful.
Guest:It reads like a very long poem.
Marc:So that was a mind blower.
Guest:I mean, and then obviously we ultimately ended up writing together and that was such a fun experience.
Marc:With what, Frances Ha?
Guest:That was the first one we wrote together.
Guest:And then we wrote Mistress America together.
Marc:Yeah, I saw Francis Ha, the black and white one.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, I like that.
Marc:You were good in that.
Marc:I think I like that movie, and I like Greenberg a lot because I knew the guy, and it was familiar to me.
Marc:It seems like Noah, he comes from a sophisticated background, and the way he creates characters is from a very intellectually informed place.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But he's very sensitive to emotions and to broken Jews, I think.
Guest:I mean, he pays attention and he's very... He's also just a beautiful... Again, he's just a beautiful writer.
Guest:In a way, he could have been a novelist.
Guest:I could see him being a novelist as well.
Guest:I mean, he's a great filmmaker, so...
Marc:But I think what's interesting, too, is like, I mean, obviously, not talking about you directing yet, but the fact that you've become a better actress, I think.
Guest:Definitely.
Marc:Over the arc of things.
Marc:Because even in Jackie, I mean, that was a very controlled role, right?
Guest:Yes, it was very controlled.
Guest:I mean, part of it is what are you being asked to do?
Guest:And sometimes you're not asked to do something that's terribly different from what you've done.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I have definitely become a better actress.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I've always felt, for me,
Guest:Everything's gone together.
Marc:You weren't bad, but the varieties of yourself were apparent, whereas with Jackie and with, I think, with 20th Century Woman, that there was a kind of control.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:And also, I think...
Guest:I mean, that's always how, for me, I felt like I became a writer because I was acting great writing.
Guest:And then the acting made me a better writer.
Guest:And then that all made me kind of have a different eye on directing.
Guest:And I feel like I've never been a person who just exists in one lane and they all support each other.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:they don't operate independently.
Guest:I remember listening to, I felt a lot of kinship with Mike Nichols because he had been a performer and then a director.
Guest:He has this sort of trajectory and the way he talked about coming at directing and then sort of using his background as a performer, as a comedy writer and then other performing.
Guest:I just felt like I understood that
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, I mean, like the way you put together the sort of the learning process of working with Swanberg, working with the Duplass, doing parts in those movies where, you know, everybody, you know, is sort of equal pay, equal work.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like there's an ensemble of kind of like low budgetness and kindred spirits in terms of, you know, wanting to do something new generationally.
Marc:But then kind of like moving into the bigger time and taking, you know, that...
Marc:But what I'm saying is I could see how it all built your brain going back to keeping the avocados warm, that you're an integrator of information.
Guest:I'm an integrator.
Guest:I remember taking a personality test once.
Guest:It's based on this Jungian typology.
Guest:I'm an ENFP.
Guest:That makes me sound.
Marc:It's not an Enneagram.
Guest:No, it's like there's 16 different types because for every category you can be an I or an E, which is an introvert or an extrovert.
Guest:Anyway, under my thing, I remember it saying they often see everything as part of a cosmic hole, which is I do.
Guest:I almost feel like my brain needs to do that.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:I mean, you know, I mean, the fact that you don't choose to.
Marc:Well, I don't know if that's true, though, but I mean, like that would be the same kind of brain that would believe in God.
Guest:That is the exact brain that would.
Marc:And well, how do you feel about that?
Guest:I'm a theist.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:You're okay with it?
Guest:I don't have, I don't know, I don't subscribe to, I'm very interested in religion and I'm interested in all different kinds of religion, but I don't subscribe to one, but I have some belief in it.
Marc:Faith?
Guest:I have some faith.
Guest:But actually I was listening to something the other day that said, they were sort of saying like, oh, it was on This American Life.
Guest:It was like all these things we don't know.
Guest:And they said, oh, you know, how many people believe the earth orbits the sun and everybody raises their hand.
Guest:And then they said, and what is your evidence for that?
Guest:Nobody has, I mean, can you tell me the evidence right now?
Marc:Some people told me at some point in time that scientists got some closure on that.
Guest:There is evidence.
Guest:We believe there's evidence.
Guest:We don't know what the evidence is.
Marc:Well, I mean, it's there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's there, but I bet it's harder to understand than you think.
Marc:Yeah, but I mean, that's not my job.
Guest:No, but meaning that's, you know, there's a lot of things we just sort of... Sure, I know.
Marc:We take.
Marc:There is sort of an amazing... The amazingness of how it all holds together.
Marc:Why, how, you know, why is it okay?
Marc:And certainly, you know, given the administration where...
Marc:within now that you start to feel existentially threatened of these things that we've grown to rely upon.
Marc:Then you start to really kind of go like, you know, is this like, is the order going to be, are we going to live through it?
Marc:Are we going to see the end thing?
Marc:But I didn't want to be negative, but it is interesting that
Marc:You take for granted a lot of things, I think is what you're saying.
Marc:You do.
Guest:You do.
Guest:I mean, I don't know.
Guest:I don't have any.
Guest:I have absolutely no answers.
Guest:I don't even really have convictions.
Guest:I just kind of have a feeling.
Marc:You just see.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You just feel that, you know, it's eventually kind of.
Guest:I think.
Guest:Well, there's this in being and nothingness.
Guest:It starts with a question.
Guest:Why is there something rather than nothing?
Marc:Don't tell me you got through that book.
Guest:No, of course not.
Guest:But I definitely read the first sentence.
Yeah.
Guest:Which is supposed to put us in the frame of mind of why is there something rather than nothing, which is a really good question.
Marc:I have that book up there still, I think.
Guest:There's a great book called Reality is Not What It Seems by this physicist Carlo Rovielli.
Guest:And I think I have it in my backpack.
Marc:It's so good that you do.
Marc:I like what you said about...
Marc:Well, go ahead.
Guest:Well, I was just going to say that he's just explained.
Guest:He sort of he chronologically takes you through what we know, what physicists know about the origin of what's all this stuff, what's going on with time.
Guest:And he takes us through like figuring out different things and figuring out what is the universe constructed of and how does it fit together.
Guest:And it's sort of through the present moment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it gets crazier and crazier and sort of like Einstein's three sphere, which just you can't even... If you try to think of what that is, your brain will stop functioning.
Guest:But there's something about it that instead of making me feel like, oh, and we figured it out, it makes me feel very in awe of everything.
Guest:And I think that sort of that awe feeling is...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It's almost like it's increased the more that I'm confronted with fact.
Guest:It's not diminished.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:You don't get the sense sort of like, glad that's figured out.
Marc:Now I can eat.
Marc:No.
Guest:There's something that's... I remember... I forget what it was.
Guest:I think it was when I was taking enlightenment literature, but it was like...
Guest:There's some amazing letter from the British Philosophical Society or maybe scientific, but there was some letter where they said publicly, I think we've almost figured it all out, which is just my favorite thing.
Marc:Yeah, finally.
Guest:Yeah, and they're like, I think we're just maybe two weeks away.
Guest:When was that written?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was like 1887.
Marc:They were on it.
Guest:And they were like, I think it's almost over.
Marc:Nothing to worry about anymore.
Guest:But I'm very compelled by that confidence.
Guest:And there's something so sweet about it that I just think.
Marc:Maybe that's your next movie on those guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How lovely we are.
Guest:We thought, I think it's about done.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's in the bag.
Marc:We got it.
Marc:Well, like I did have this weird question in a meeting.
Marc:In Noah's Meyerowitz stories, the one thing that stood out to me was that, you know, how he left scenes.
Marc:And then I'm just comparing the conversation that the way you ended...
Guest:um lady bird was was similar and it has something to do with that there there is no closure and there's something about that you're not saying that this story has a uh well i was gonna say i mean i mean to speak i like movies where um i was very careful about the very end of it it cuts off on an inhale yeah and
Guest:Because to me, and I look through this footage a lot, the minute she exhales, there's something on her face that she's in a new story.
Guest:And we're not telling that story.
Guest:That is the end of that story.
Guest:And I've always liked the end of movies where you feel retrospectively, oh my God, that was the end of that story.
Guest:And I like it when it cuts off just as it ends and it lets you remember that that was the end.
Guest:You know, in a way, I feel like so much of filmmaking...
Guest:if you've written it and you've directed it, it has to make sense to you because there's no other reason to make it.
Guest:I mean, it has to fit your weird need in some way because that's the hunch that everybody else is going off of.
Guest:That's the thing that everyone else is bringing their talents to and collaborating with.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Even the structure of the movie and certain things that if people said, oh, does it need to be this way?
Guest:One of the good reasons about putting together a movie is it forces you to consider everything because it all takes time and money and do you really need it?
Guest:And you get very real with yourself very fast about what you need.
Marc:Sure, yeah, for budgetary reasons you got to get lean.
Guest:Yeah, but then what's great about it is you realize that the things that matter, that you need, that you absolutely need,
Guest:You'll probably develop more intellectualized reasons for later, but in the moment, you just know you need them and you don't question it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because if you start questioning it, then it all goes out the window.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because I'm not making movies about, you know, I'm not making a crime caper.
Guest:It's not like I need to know this information to know how they broke into the safe.
Guest:It's more subtle than that.
Guest:But if I lose track of it, then we're all lost because there's no reason to make anything.
Marc:Yeah, then it's just darkness and hopelessness.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Why is there something rather than nothing?
Yeah.
Marc:You don't want to live there.
Marc:No.
Guest:I think maybe I'm getting like this because this marble I'm looking into has a very cosmic.
Marc:The giant marble.
Marc:The giant cosmic marble.
Guest:The cosmic marble.
Guest:And I think maybe that's putting me into a particular space.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, we can stop.
Marc:It was great talking to you.
Guest:It's so nice talking to you.
Marc:Go see Lady Bird.
Marc:It's open across the country.
Marc:It's a beautiful movie.
Marc:Elevating the human spirit.
Marc:That's the best we can do right now in our individual ways.
Marc:Elevate the human spirit.
Marc:Make it important.
Marc:Make it vital.
Marc:Make it worth it.
Marc:Yeah, okay.
Marc:All right, I'm going to play some dark, elevating guitar, slightly psychedelic, but with the three-chord progression that is hypnotizing and relieving to me, and at this point, tedious, but in a good way.
.
Guest:.
Guest:.
Guest:.
Guest:Boomer lives!