Episode 860 - John Hammond / Michael Rapaport

Episode 860 • Released November 1, 2017 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:All right, let's do this.

00:00:10Marc:How are you?

00:00:11Marc:What the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fucking ears?

00:00:14Marc:What the fuck nuts?

00:00:15Marc:What's happening?

00:00:16Marc:I'm Mark Maron.

00:00:16Marc:This is my podcast WTF.

00:00:18Marc:Welcome to it.

00:00:19Marc:Hope you're doing all right.

00:00:21Marc:I it's very early.

00:00:23Marc:The shooting schedules got me a little turned upside down and I got some other things happening in my life that are consuming and overwhelming and taking up a lot of my time.

00:00:31Marc:Right off the top here, I do want to thank everyone who's been reading Waiting for the Punch, Words to Live By from the WTF podcast.

00:00:37Marc:We're really thrilled with the response.

00:00:40Marc:The book is selling well.

00:00:41Marc:It's sweet.

00:00:42Marc:And we'll be doing our final Waiting for the Punch event of the year in Seattle, one week from Saturday.

00:00:48Marc:Brendan and I will be at Third Place Books in Seward Park, November 11th at 7 p.m.

00:00:53Marc:Tickets are available at the store with the purchase of Waiting for the Punch.

00:00:57Marc:And if you can't make it and you still want a signed book, you can get one by going to

00:01:01Marc:Podswag.com slash punch.

00:01:04Marc:It's the only site that has official signed copies.

00:01:07Marc:That's P-O-D-S-W-A-G dot com slash punch.

00:01:13Marc:Wow, man.

00:01:14Marc:I forgot about this.

00:01:16Marc:I forgot about five in the morning, man.

00:01:19Marc:It's like, it's not, it's five in the morning when I was doing morning radio at five in the morning was not an unusual place to be, but I judging by right now, I woke up this morning, really realizing I had to, to record this, you know, for this show.

00:01:35Marc:Cause I got to go to set and do shoot all day.

00:01:38Marc:And it's just, I got to bring my car in.

00:01:41Marc:It's early.

00:01:41Marc:It is early.

00:01:43Marc:Um,

00:01:44Marc:I want to read an email.

00:02:07Marc:I'm a Christ follower who has mostly attended non-denominational church as an adult.

00:02:12Marc:I do not consider myself evangelical, although I researched what it means to be evangelical, and it's not that far off from my beliefs.

00:02:20Marc:I guess I want to make sure you know that just because someone is a believer in the good news, it does not mean that all Christians stand behind Trump or his fellow criminals.

00:02:30Marc:I voted for Bernie in the primaries and Hillary in the actual election, so please don't assume that all Christians back Trump.

00:02:37Marc:I know you've been raised Jewish, and sometimes you lump all Jewish people into one category and catch flack from fellow Jewish listeners.

00:02:44Marc:All I'm doing is reminding you that not all Christians should be lumped into the same category, especially not one so offensive as to state that I want to spend time in the afterlife right now, so I choose Trump to bring forth what is stated in Revelations.

00:03:00Marc:That's it.

00:03:01Marc:Thanks for being my drive to work companion each day.

00:03:03Marc:Oh, and if you get the opportunity, you should interview Issa Rae from the HBO show Insecure.

00:03:09Marc:She's brilliant and hilarious.

00:03:10Marc:Best regards, Nora.

00:03:12Marc:We had Issa scheduled, and I'm trying to make that happen.

00:03:17Marc:I'll answer that right away.

00:03:18Marc:And you're right.

00:03:20Marc:I appreciate your email, but could you get your Christians together to stop the other ones?

00:03:26Marc:If there's going to be a war, I wouldn't mind it being between y'all.

00:03:29Marc:You dig?

00:03:32Marc:Because you know what I'm saying.

00:03:34Marc:Shit is real.

00:03:36Marc:So, 5 in the morning.

00:03:38Marc:Yeah, morning radio.

00:03:40Marc:Reminds me of getting up 2.30 in the morning, get up to get to the studio about 3, 3.30, get jacked up on Dunkin' Donuts coffee and M&M's to get on the air at 6.

00:03:50Marc:Yeah, we overworked.

00:03:51Marc:We had to do a lot of detailed and...

00:03:55Marc:significant research every morning to get on the air for Morning Sedition back in the Air America days.

00:04:02Marc:But I don't know how I did it.

00:04:04Marc:I don't know how I'm doing this.

00:04:06Marc:I guess I'm just a worker.

00:04:07Marc:I don't know what to tell you.

00:04:08Marc:Did I tell you who's on the show?

00:04:10Marc:I do have a sort of a, I don't know if it's a hero, but a guy I love a lot.

00:04:15Marc:Two guys, actually, it turns out.

00:04:17Marc:But John Hammond is on the show, the blues musician.

00:04:20Marc:And I was just excited to meet him and to talk to him.

00:04:24Marc:because I don't know where I got one of his records years ago, but I couldn't believe it.

00:04:30Marc:And he's done like 30 records, and he's always out there touring.

00:04:34Marc:It's just him and a couple of guitars.

00:04:37Marc:He's beyond great, and he's a very authentic blues musician, and he does something with the music that no one really does.

00:04:45Marc:And it was an honor to talk to him, so he'll be here soon.

00:04:48Marc:I'll tell you a little story before I start that interview.

00:04:53Marc:And coming up first, before John, Michael Rappaport wanted to come by to talk.

00:05:03Marc:When you have Michael Rappaport over, he's got a new book out.

00:05:06Marc:It's called This Book Has Balls, Sports Rants from the MVP of Talkin' Trash.

00:05:12Marc:You can get that where all books are available.

00:05:14Marc:But those of you who are familiar with Michael Rappaport know that a conversation with him is sort of like an amusement park ride.

00:05:21Yeah.

00:05:21Marc:You kind of get on.

00:05:23Marc:You don't know what's going to happen.

00:05:24Marc:And you just hold on and engage where you can.

00:05:28Marc:I always like having him over.

00:05:31Marc:So this is me having a short but intense conversation with Michael Rappaport.

00:05:41Marc:What the fuck's going on with you?

00:05:43Marc:Are you alright?

00:05:43Marc:Didn't you start some shit recently?

00:05:45Marc:No, what shit?

00:05:46Marc:I don't know.

00:05:47Marc:With Trump, did you start some shit?

00:05:49Guest:Oh, start some shit.

00:05:50Guest:With Trump, you're finishing shit.

00:05:52Guest:You're cleaning up shit.

00:05:53Guest:I didn't start any shit.

00:05:54Guest:He's like... Did you know him in New York?

00:05:57Guest:Did you ever deal with him?

00:05:58Guest:No, I never dealt with Trump.

00:06:00Guest:I've seen him around a couple of parties and things like that.

00:06:04Guest:But, you know, I mean...

00:06:06Guest:The thing about Trump in New York is we know what the fuck he's all about.

00:06:11Guest:We've seen him out and about chasing skirt.

00:06:14Guest:Forever.

00:06:15Guest:Forever.

00:06:15Guest:In New York.

00:06:16Guest:We've seen him on the corner before they fixed up times.

00:06:21Guest:He's a fucking three card money player.

00:06:23Guest:That's what he is.

00:06:25Guest:If you listen to him talk like his Alabama.

00:06:27Guest:Yeah.

00:06:28Guest:Talk last week.

00:06:28Guest:That was classic three-card Monty.

00:06:32Guest:Hustle.

00:06:32Guest:Shuck and jive.

00:06:33Guest:Yeah.

00:06:34Guest:Fucking, you know, bait and switch shit.

00:06:36Guest:That's what he does.

00:06:37Guest:He's brilliant in the same way that, you know, and not in a good way.

00:06:44Guest:The bad kind of brilliant.

00:06:45Guest:You know, and I have to admit, I do see...

00:06:49Guest:parts of myself in him yeah that's the difficult thing right if you're a little narcissistic if you're a little bit of a charming asshole yes you could sort of like i get what he's doing i get what he's doing but but but i'm not the president nor nor would nor would i i want to be not yet not yet not yet anything's fucking now anything's possible if this motherfucker could be president yeah

00:07:11Marc:anybody literally can be president you can he's lowered the bar on what's acceptable oh yeah in in everything and it all crossed the board so so you got to help me out because like you know i i got the book this book has balls i see you know it clearly is a sporting theme yes the theme of sports yes now i as a i am a non-sports jew yes

00:07:34Marc:There's many non-sports Jews.

00:07:36Marc:Did we talk about this before?

00:07:37Marc:We didn't.

00:07:38Marc:No.

00:07:38Marc:But you're like a full-on sports Jew.

00:07:40Marc:I'm a sports Jew.

00:07:41Marc:I love sports.

00:07:42Guest:Yeah.

00:07:42Guest:I love sports.

00:07:43Marc:And what is it, though?

00:07:46Marc:One guy said to me once when I told him I didn't like sports, he said, Frank Santorelli, a comedian, goes, well, how do you feel alive?

00:07:53Marc:I understand that.

00:07:54Marc:You never played sports growing up?

00:07:56Marc:Sure, I played Little League a little bit.

00:07:57Marc:I can hit a ball.

00:07:58Marc:I'm a physically fit guy.

00:07:59Marc:You look fit.

00:08:00Marc:Yeah, I'm fit.

00:08:01Marc:Well, how do you stay fit?

00:08:03Marc:Well, I work out and shit, but I mean, I don't... Competitive sports.

00:08:05Marc:I played a little tennis, played some baseball.

00:08:07Marc:I never basketball.

00:08:09Marc:I can hit a softball pretty good.

00:08:11Marc:I mean, I can do it.

00:08:12Marc:I swam when I was a kid on a swim team.

00:08:13Guest:But can you smack the shit out of... Like, you look like one of those guys who can hit a softball.

00:08:17Guest:I can hit a softball.

00:08:17Guest:Which is not an easy... I'm not a good softball hitter.

00:08:19Guest:You're a basketball player?

00:08:20Guest:I like basketball.

00:08:21Guest:I could play ball.

00:08:23Guest:I grew up playing ball, but I was never a big... I never had that big stick.

00:08:26Marc:Not to hit the ball with the stick kind of guy.

00:08:28Guest:I never could hit it far.

00:08:30Guest:You would think because of my size, but there's a technique.

00:08:33Guest:I don't have a good stroke, Mark, so you must have a good stroke.

00:08:36Marc:Well, you know, when I do it, I do it.

00:08:39Marc:But there's a lot of misses.

00:08:40Marc:There's a lot of, you know.

00:08:41Guest:But you're like a second baseman.

00:08:42Guest:I can see you in left field making diving.

00:08:45Marc:Center field.

00:08:46Marc:No diving.

00:08:47Marc:Fat center field kid.

00:08:48Marc:Just backing up.

00:08:49Marc:There's a lot of backing up.

00:08:50Marc:There's no diving.

00:08:51Marc:There's no, holy shit, that thing's coming at me too fast.

00:08:55Marc:Right.

00:08:55Marc:A lot of time.

00:08:56Marc:Right.

00:08:56Marc:There it is.

00:08:57Marc:It's hanging there.

00:08:57Marc:Right, right, right.

00:08:58Marc:I'll get under it.

00:08:59Marc:The story is, I broke my nose in center field because I fell backing up to catch a fly ball.

00:09:04Marc:And you fell on your face?

00:09:05Marc:I tripped backwards.

00:09:06Marc:And it hit me in the face.

00:09:07Marc:The ball hit you in your nose.

00:09:09Marc:So I had it lined up.

00:09:10Marc:But that's not a good indicator.

00:09:12Marc:You get hit in the face with a ball in center field, you're not a sportsman.

00:09:16Guest:If you get hit in the face with a ball in center field, you're not a fucking sportsman.

00:09:20Guest:And I could see why.

00:09:22Guest:But that was just like, you know, you didn't fight to overcome it.

00:09:26Guest:It wasn't in you.

00:09:27Guest:But I could see why.

00:09:29Guest:Yeah.

00:09:29Guest:I've always had a fear of breaking my nose, because I got a very prominent Jew nose, and I'm proud of this fucking nose, and I don't want anything to happen to it.

00:09:37Guest:Like, my father's got a nose that makes mine look like Rob Lowe's nose.

00:09:41Marc:Yeah, well, look, if I take my glasses off, I got... That's nice, too.

00:09:45Marc:Yeah, I got a thing.

00:09:46Marc:It's not as full as yours.

00:09:47Marc:You have the full Jew.

00:09:48Marc:I have the Roman Jew.

00:09:50Marc:Yes, yes, yes.

00:09:51Marc:You have a Roman Jewish nose.

00:09:53Marc:You got a little bulbous going.

00:09:54Marc:Yes, yes.

00:09:54Guest:My father's is like, you know, it's like old school...

00:09:57Guest:dinosaur Jew.

00:09:59Guest:He's that kind of dinosaur Jew that won't exist.

00:10:02Guest:Yeah, they're almost gone.

00:10:03Guest:They're almost gone.

00:10:04Guest:Like, that generation of Jews, they won't be here, you know, and it's, you know, they'll be extinct.

00:10:09Guest:It's sad.

00:10:09Guest:Like, with the giant ears.

00:10:11Guest:Sure.

00:10:11Guest:My father's ears are probably as big as my cock.

00:10:14Guest:Yeah.

00:10:14Guest:Like, his ears are huge.

00:10:16Guest:It's a weird comparison, but... I'm just saying, like, they're like, you know, like 11 inches, like my cock.

00:10:22Guest:I'm just like...

00:10:22Marc:I'm just playing.

00:10:24Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:10:24Guest:So, yeah, but so the book, this book has balls, sports rants from the MVP of Talking Trash.

00:10:29Guest:Who are your teams?

00:10:31Guest:New York teams.

00:10:32Guest:But I'm a players guy.

00:10:34Guest:Obviously, I love the New York Giants.

00:10:36Guest:I love the New York Knicks.

00:10:38Guest:I'm all fucked up about the Knicks.

00:10:40Guest:But I love players.

00:10:42Guest:I love different players.

00:10:43Guest:Basketball, football are my things.

00:10:46Guest:Because the Knicks suck, basketball, I go wherever.

00:10:51Guest:And I can't stand LeBron.

00:10:52Guest:You had to abandon the Knicks?

00:10:53Guest:I had to for my own well-being and my own health.

00:10:56Guest:Because you get too angry?

00:10:57Guest:It's too much.

00:10:58Guest:It's a really dysfunctional, abusive relationship, and we deserve better.

00:11:02Marc:Yeah.

00:11:03Marc:We deserve better.

00:11:04Marc:Wait, what's going on?

00:11:04Marc:Explain it to me.

00:11:05Guest:It's just the Knicks have not won a championship since 1973.

00:11:09Guest:The owner is Trump-like, this guy James Dolan, and he doesn't give a shit about the fans.

00:11:17Guest:He's a rich guy whose father was a billionaire, and he was handed Madison Square Garden

00:11:24Marc:He owns a Madison Square Garden?

00:11:25Guest:The Knicks, the Rangers, Radio City Musical.

00:11:28Guest:He owns a lot of New Yorkies.

00:11:29Guest:This little guy.

00:11:30Guest:Check this out.

00:11:31Guest:He's a billionaire whose father was a billionaire, and he has a blues band.

00:11:36Guest:Do I need to explain anything else to you?

00:11:37Guest:What's his name again?

00:11:38Guest:James Dolan.

00:11:39Guest:He's in a fucking blues band.

00:11:41Guest:Yeah, it's no good.

00:11:42Marc:Not a rock and roll band.

00:11:43Marc:A blues band.

00:11:44Marc:A fucking blues band.

00:11:45Marc:And he can play the garden whenever he wants.

00:11:47Guest:He tours on a private jet.

00:11:50Guest:He's a billionaire.

00:11:52Guest:The antithesis of blues music, you know your music.

00:11:56Guest:Fucking billionaire who owns Madison Square Garden and he was handed it by his father.

00:12:02Guest:This is the type of motherfucker.

00:12:04Guest:There's just been one mishap of handling after another.

00:12:08Guest:He doesn't just own the team, which we couldn't blame him.

00:12:11Guest:He owns the team and he's made basketball decisions.

00:12:14Guest:And you can tell he never even had the life experience of getting hit in the face with a softball in center field like you did.

00:12:22Marc:That was a hardball.

00:12:22Marc:A hardball.

00:12:24Guest:But he's never even had that.

00:12:25Marc:You can just tell he never.

00:12:26Marc:Just a gilded cage kid.

00:12:28Marc:Silver spoon.

00:12:29Guest:And he's in a blues band.

00:12:30Guest:He's got the balls to do public shows.

00:12:33Guest:What's the blues band called?

00:12:35Guest:The billionaire blues band?

00:12:37Guest:I don't fucking know.

00:12:37Guest:I mean, to have the bulls to be in a blues band.

00:12:41Guest:And he'll talk about it like, I understand the blues.

00:12:45Guest:And I'm like, no, you don't understand fucking anything.

00:12:47Guest:You don't even walk around your own city that you own half of.

00:12:51Guest:So, you know, the Knicks are fucked up.

00:12:53Guest:But the book is essentially that.

00:12:55Guest:It's all sports rants.

00:12:56Guest:What you just did?

00:12:57Guest:Exactly.

00:12:57Guest:I mean, that would be another.

00:12:59Guest:That's for part two.

00:13:00Guest:But it's essentially like it's just, you know, my frustrations.

00:13:05Guest:You know, it's not all like, you know, negative stuff.

00:13:07Guest:It's not all like they suck.

00:13:09Guest:You know, I fell in love with Mary Lou Retton in 1984.

00:13:11Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:13:12Marc:Yeah.

00:13:13Guest:i fell in love with everybody with the gymnast yes but i took it to i really fell in love i went to a you know a gym a gymnastics exhibition and i thought like that was going to be like we were going to fall i was 14 mark so don't judge me i'm not going to judge you so you so you went to see her on purpose i know i went to the garden i actually went to madison square garden to see her though to see mary lourette and and i went i was dressed up and i had cologne on and i thought like we're gonna yeah yeah it's gonna happen you're gonna connect

00:13:40Guest:And she saw me looking at her and God is my fucking witness.

00:13:47Guest:I said, this is what came out of me.

00:13:48Guest:This has been like a month of preparation.

00:13:50Guest:And my father, I was like, you know, I gave up my Christmas presents.

00:13:55Guest:I was like, can you just, because he was like, what the fuck do you want to go to see gymnastics for?

00:13:59Guest:What the fuck is it?

00:14:00Guest:And I was like, I want to just go.

00:14:02Guest:I want to go.

00:14:02Guest:And he was like, all right, but that's your Christmas present.

00:14:04Guest:I was like, all right, I'm on a Saturday by myself.

00:14:07Guest:And Madison Square Garden.

00:14:08Guest:Dressed up.

00:14:09Guest:We're in a turtleneck.

00:14:10Guest:In your bar mitzvah suit.

00:14:12Guest:And I'm thinking like, I'm going to go there and like Mary Lou Retton and I are going to fall in love.

00:14:17Guest:And I literally, while she came out, you know, it was like screaming kids.

00:14:19Guest:It was screaming kids and Michael Rappaport.

00:14:22Guest:Like a fucking crazy person.

00:14:25Guest:But in my head, I was like, she's going to see me.

00:14:27Marc:She's going to come.

00:14:28Marc:This is like destined to happen.

00:14:30Guest:Why shouldn't it?

00:14:31Guest:Yeah.

00:14:32Guest:And I said to her when she got on the mats, I said, I swear to God, me and you, Mary Lou.

00:14:39Guest:And she looked over, and God is my witness.

00:14:41Guest:She said to her brother, who was like her flunky security guard, that guy looks weird.

00:14:47Guest:It's a true story.

00:14:48Guest:And I went back to my seat and then left and then walked home in the fall place.

00:14:53Guest:The fall of New York City by myself.

00:14:57Guest:The sad leaves falling down.

00:14:59Guest:And then I went home and took down my little shrine I had made for her.

00:15:01Guest:I didn't rip it because I thought maybe we'd reconnect later, but I put it in my closet and that was the end.

00:15:07Marc:You know what's even more amazing to me?

00:15:10Marc:That if you had the opportunity to meet her now and just tell her that, she'd still be scared.

00:15:16Guest:Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

00:15:19Guest:Fuck.

00:15:20Guest:And you know, out of all the people I've ever met over the years, I've still never met Mary Lou Reddick.

00:15:25Guest:If you said, yeah, I got a funny story.

00:15:28Guest:She'd be like, that shit's not funny.

00:15:29Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:15:30Guest:She'd be like, that guy looks weird to her brother.

00:15:33Guest:So it's just shit like that.

00:15:34Guest:It's fun.

00:15:35Guest:You know, I mean.

00:15:36Guest:Whatever happened to her anyways?

00:15:37Guest:I don't know if she's resting her puffy little feet in West Virginia.

00:15:40Guest:She did a lot of jumping on those.

00:15:42Marc:She'll always be my sweetheart.

00:15:45Marc:It's funny, though.

00:15:45Marc:It's a scary moment when you look back on that stuff and you realize you get something in your head.

00:15:49Marc:I was thinking about the other day how much you project.

00:15:52Marc:Oh, there's something here.

00:15:54Marc:There's got to be something here, right?

00:15:55Marc:And you don't know anything.

00:15:57Marc:There's nothing here.

00:15:58Marc:You're making it up.

00:16:00Marc:And men do that way more than women.

00:16:01Marc:They do it throughout their life.

00:16:03Marc:I think I felt something.

00:16:04Marc:No, no.

00:16:05Marc:You want that to be there.

00:16:07Marc:It's not there.

00:16:07Guest:Yeah.

00:16:08Guest:I have a friend of mine.

00:16:09Guest:He had a story.

00:16:11Guest:I'm not going to name his name.

00:16:12Marc:Yeah.

00:16:13Guest:He's never been on this podcast.

00:16:15Guest:I'm not going to name his name.

00:16:16Marc:That narrows it down.

00:16:18Guest:Right.

00:16:19Guest:But I remember he was like, yeah, me and this girl were vibing and-

00:16:22Guest:We were looking at each other in the eyes and I finally went over to her and I was like, how you doing?

00:16:28Guest:And she was like, how you doing?

00:16:29Guest:And he was looking at her.

00:16:30Guest:He's like an eye contact guy, like you're having soul connection.

00:16:35Guest:And he said to her, are you thinking what I'm thinking?

00:16:38Guest:And she was like, yeah.

00:16:39Guest:And then she said, looks like rain, right?

00:16:42Guest:And then he was like, yeah, yeah, that's what I meant.

00:16:45Guest:but like he thought they had this you know like this long standing like eye contact thing and she was just like yeah it's gonna fucking rain you don't know what the hell people are thinking about no especially with women and when you're young you're so so dumb yeah and and that was at 14 that was the beginning of my dumbness yeah at 14 because 14 to 25 26 you're so dumb i was at my prime dumb like at 23

00:17:09Guest:yeah that's where it happens that's where the that you know if you don't if you live through 23 you're gonna make it till your 30s you're you'll make it there but it's a dumb time dumb because you don't you just try and figure out who you are right you can't see outside of arm's length but you think you got it all and your fucking parents are dumb yeah they're dumb they're dumb yeah and you have it all figured out at 19 yeah

00:17:30Guest:And I'm walking around with gonorrhea at 19, and I know everything.

00:17:33Guest:How'd you get that?

00:17:35Guest:Just one night.

00:17:36Guest:It was actually 16.

00:17:37Guest:I got that plane.

00:17:38Guest:I got gonorrhea once.

00:17:40Guest:Yeah.

00:17:42Guest:Once in high school when I first started having sex, and I was having sex with three girls.

00:17:47Guest:I had had sex with three girls.

00:17:49Guest:Oh, so you made a mess of a lot of people's wives.

00:17:50Guest:I made a mess.

00:17:51Guest:I caught it from somebody, but I was at basketball practice.

00:17:54Guest:I might have been 17.

00:17:55Guest:I might have even been 18.

00:17:56Guest:All right, so somewhere between 16 and 18.

00:17:58Guest:It was between 17 and 18, and I was at basketball practice, and this is before they had compression shorts.

00:18:04Guest:When you work out now, they have compression shorts and underarm.

00:18:06Guest:This is where you just had tighty-whities or a jockstrap.

00:18:09Guest:Who the fuck wants to wear a jockstrap when you're 17?

00:18:12Guest:I was in my tighty-whities at basketball practice at Martin Luther King High School in New York City, and I was guarding somebody, and I ... Did I just piss myself?

00:18:24Guest:And I look and there was like a little bit of like a green thing.

00:18:27Guest:I went to the- A green thing?

00:18:28Guest:Yo, gonorrhea.

00:18:29Guest:That's what it is, Mark.

00:18:30Guest:Green?

00:18:31Guest:It's like green.

00:18:32Guest:You know, like it's like a little drip.

00:18:33Guest:I've never had it.

00:18:34Guest:You're better off.

00:18:36Marc:I'm sure.

00:18:37Marc:Yeah.

00:18:37Marc:I never once thought like, hey, you know, I kind of wish looking back on it.

00:18:40Marc:Yeah, you never had that experience.

00:18:41Marc:Yeah.

00:18:42Guest:so that was yeah but so that was but only once only once you had to go to the doc i had to go to the doctor you had to go like it's not the nurse it's like the health room and you go in there and she's like what's the matter and you have to tell 17 you know humiliating that shit is and then you got a strip in front of a woman who's going to stick a cotton swab in the tip of your loaf yeah and then she tells you you have it's fucking terrible figure out how who gave it to you

00:19:08Guest:It's just one of these two or three women.

00:19:11Guest:Did you tell them?

00:19:12Guest:Nope.

00:19:13Guest:I was 17.

00:19:14Guest:I didn't have the balls to tell them.

00:19:17Guest:I mean, I didn't see them again.

00:19:19Guest:Yeah.

00:19:20Guest:But it was, you know.

00:19:21Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:19:22Guest:It's a shameful thing.

00:19:23Marc:Sure it is.

00:19:24Guest:But luckily it wasn't anything long term.

00:19:27Marc:They gave you a shot and that was that.

00:19:30Guest:They gave me a shot, yes.

00:19:33Guest:But the treatment for it isn't as bad as the sticking the cotton swab in there to see what's going on.

00:19:39Guest:And as a young 17-year-old, it's embarrassing.

00:19:44Guest:I don't even know how we got on.

00:19:45Guest:I just admitted I had gonorrhea.

00:19:47Guest:And that was 1987, folks, so the ramifications are.

00:19:51Marc:You were stupid then.

00:19:52Marc:Yeah.

00:19:53Marc:So what was I going to say?

00:19:54Marc:You're doing a show, right?

00:19:56Marc:I'm on a show now.

00:19:56Marc:With Jennifer Jason Leigh?

00:19:58Marc:Jennifer Jason Leigh.

00:19:58Marc:That I haven't watched.

00:19:59Marc:Atypical.

00:20:00Marc:People like it.

00:20:01Marc:It's a good show on Netflix.

00:20:03Marc:You like working with her?

00:20:04Marc:I love her.

00:20:05Marc:She's great.

00:20:05Marc:I had her in here not too long ago.

00:20:06Marc:Oh, did you have her in here?

00:20:07Marc:Yeah, it was great.

00:20:08Marc:She has good stories, right?

00:20:09Guest:Yeah, well, she's intense.

00:20:10Guest:She's a real deal.

00:20:11Guest:Yeah.

00:20:12Guest:But she's...

00:20:14Guest:She's got good stories.

00:20:15Guest:She had a great career.

00:20:16Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:20:17Guest:Worked with so many people.

00:20:19Marc:Good actress.

00:20:20Guest:Really good actress.

00:20:21Marc:Is you two working together a lot?

00:20:23Guest:Yeah, me and her working together.

00:20:24Guest:We're in a dysfunctional relationship, you know, and she's just good.

00:20:30Guest:You know, like I've always been a fan of hers.

00:20:32Guest:Yeah.

00:20:32Guest:And like she was like, you know, somebody who I've always... Did you think that... No, no, no.

00:20:36Guest:Well, when she was in Fast Times at Ridgemont High, it was either you were into her or Phoebe Cates.

00:20:40Guest:Yeah.

00:20:41Guest:Like it was like one or the other.

00:20:42Guest:Which way did you go?

00:20:43Guest:I was into Jennifer Jason Leigh.

00:20:45Guest:Yeah.

00:20:45Guest:But I mean, not like, not like, you know, like I wasn't like, not like Mary Lou Retton.

00:20:49Guest:Right.

00:20:49Guest:And I'll tell her like, I love you, Jennifer Jason Leigh, but not like Mary Lou Retton.

00:20:52Guest:But I will tell you this.

00:20:54Guest:When I worked with Jennifer Jason Leigh.

00:20:56Guest:Yeah.

00:20:57Guest:And we worked together for three months every fucking day.

00:21:02Guest:The Jackson Browne song.

00:21:03Guest:You got to be somebody's baby.

00:21:06Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:21:06Guest:Because that's the song she lost her virginity to in Fast Times.

00:21:10Guest:So every day it said, I'm like, got to be.

00:21:12Guest:And I'm like.

00:21:12Guest:Oh, she must have loved that.

00:21:13Guest:I never told her.

00:21:14Guest:I was too ashamed of myself.

00:21:16Guest:And she's cool.

00:21:17Guest:I asked her all kinds of stories.

00:21:18Guest:But I was like, every day.

00:21:19Guest:I'd be listening to it.

00:21:20Guest:It became my obsessive song.

00:21:22Guest:You play it?

00:21:24Guest:i'd play it i'd play it i'd sing it i was like you got to be some because that's it was very sexually charged movie yeah it was young for a kid but she's always been one of my favorites yeah and um so yeah atypical and then i got this other show um that's really fucking good that that's coming out on showtime with jay farrell called white famous which is nuts yeah what is that

00:21:46Guest:Jamie Foxx used to do this bit.

00:21:49Guest:He's an executive producer.

00:21:50Guest:He used to do this bit about when he first came to Hollywood, like he had made it to a certain level of fame and success, but he wanted to become white famous, like crossover.

00:22:01Guest:And Jay Farrow is the star of this show, and it's essentially about a young comedian, talented guy who's trying to get big.

00:22:08Guest:Big, big, big.

00:22:09Guest:But it's very provocative in regards to race.

00:22:13Guest:Yeah.

00:22:15Guest:you know, socially and things that go on in Hollywood, but it's really just about a guy trying to find his way and how much will he compromise or not compromise to reach his dreams.

00:22:26Guest:But it's fucking nuts.

00:22:27Guest:And what do you play?

00:22:28Guest:I play this director...

00:22:30Guest:who um is trying to get this young hot comedian in his show and the director's like he's just nuts he's like you know you know believes in method acting and like it has to be real and he keeps sort of tricking him and taking him out of his comfort zone and it's just very now and even the title to me like i think it's just a great like i would love donald trump and all his followers to watch white famous because it's going to drive them fucking insane

00:22:54Marc:Yeah.

00:22:55Marc:What did we talk about the last time we were here?

00:22:57Marc:Oh, it was with Sylvester Stallone, right?

00:22:59Guest:Copland.

00:22:59Marc:Yeah, Copland.

00:23:00Guest:Same type of shit.

00:23:01Guest:But what about De Niro?

00:23:02Marc:You work with him?

00:23:03Guest:Yeah, he's my man.

00:23:04Guest:I love him.

00:23:05Guest:Did we talk about him last time?

00:23:06Guest:I mean, we could talk about him.

00:23:07Guest:He never gets old.

00:23:08Guest:He's fucking Bob De Niro.

00:23:09Guest:Yeah.

00:23:10Guest:I mean, I've never talked to him about acting.

00:23:16Guest:Yeah.

00:23:16Guest:I've talked to him about New York and...

00:23:20Guest:And just being around him.

00:23:21Guest:Like, I don't want to be friends with him.

00:23:23Guest:Like, it's not like I wouldn't be friends with him.

00:23:25Guest:But I revere him and love him so much.

00:23:27Guest:Also, why would he want to be?

00:23:29Guest:He's a seven-year-old dude.

00:23:30Guest:He's Bob De Niro.

00:23:31Guest:What the fuck does he want to talk to me about?

00:23:34Guest:But I literally have been with him and met him.

00:23:37Guest:I've worked with him twice.

00:23:38Guest:Every time I see him, my heart palpitates.

00:23:41Guest:It races like a girl at a Michael Jackson concert.

00:23:44Guest:I just have so much respect for him, and he means so much to me, and he's influenced me and inspired me so much.

00:23:53Guest:But what are you talking about?

00:23:54Guest:How you doing, Bob?

00:23:55Guest:What's going on?

00:23:56Guest:I mean, when I see him, he'll kiss me on the cheek.

00:23:59Guest:Hello.

00:24:00Guest:Yeah.

00:24:01Guest:And I'm like melting, like fucking Fonzie.

00:24:03Guest:You know, like I'm like literally like, you know, like a girl running away from Fonzie.

00:24:07Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:24:08Guest:I just... I see him all the time at the Tribeca Film Festival.

00:24:12Marc:He must know you.

00:24:13Marc:He must get familiar with you because you both grew up in New York.

00:24:16Marc:There's a language.

00:24:17Guest:Yeah, no, totally.

00:24:18Guest:You know, he's familiar and he knows I love him and I've done things at the Tribeca Film Festival and I've worked with him twice.

00:24:24Guest:But I just... There's certain people...

00:24:27Guest:that means so much to me that I don't want to try to break that.

00:24:31Guest:Right.

00:24:32Guest:I just, he's one of them.

00:24:34Guest:Don't want to ruin it in a way.

00:24:35Guest:It's not that he'll be disappointed.

00:24:36Guest:I just adore him so fucking much.

00:24:40Guest:And now that he's gotten older, I think he's gotten more comfortable with people like me and the adoration that he's gotten for 40 years that has already made a very shy person even more shy.

00:24:51Guest:But the fact, I mean,

00:24:52Guest:In my opinion, like, you know, what he's done with New York post 9-11 and the outspokenness that he's taken towards Trump.

00:25:00Guest:I mean, that was one of his best performances when he called him a dog, a mutt.

00:25:05Guest:For him to do that, who doesn't talk about anything, you know that he's crossed paths with Trump over the years.

00:25:11Guest:This is a guy who's like, he knows this motherfucker's a dog, a mutt, a con, a lie, a cheat.

00:25:17Guest:Yeah.

00:25:17Guest:And I was just like, fuck yeah, Bob.

00:25:19Guest:Tell him what the fuck is up.

00:25:20Guest:Because we all love you.

00:25:22Guest:And we all want to call him a fucking dog, mutt, lie, con, and a fucking cheat.

00:25:26Guest:You memorized a monologue.

00:25:27Guest:Oh, it's one of his best performances.

00:25:29Guest:And it was off the cuff.

00:25:30Guest:Yeah.

00:25:31Guest:So.

00:25:32Guest:So how's everything you got?

00:25:34Guest:How's your kids?

00:25:35Guest:Good?

00:25:35Guest:My kids are good.

00:25:36Guest:They're 15 and 17.

00:25:37Guest:They are completely uninterested in everything I have to say or have to do.

00:25:43Guest:You know, it's like that white noise.

00:25:44Guest:Really?

00:25:45Guest:And now that they have Uber and stuff and one of them's actually driving, it's like they really don't need shit.

00:25:50Guest:Because in LA, like, you know, you're like a car service.

00:25:53Guest:A parent.

00:25:53Guest:Like, now it's like, you know, they're at the point where, I mean, when I was 15 and 17, my father was like, and I lived in New York.

00:26:00Guest:You were out getting gonorrhea.

00:26:01Guest:I was...

00:26:02Guest:you know i come in dad can i get five dollars that can you know you shut the door you come in you come and you go so that's so you know what's up with them but they're good kids they're good they're they're they're rapaports but they're they're they're doing those thus far one of the only guys that could say that and people are like oh okay you know yeah they have tendencies and dna stuff that they can't escape but they're they're doing better than than i was at at 17 yeah are they in show business

00:26:28Guest:I hope not.

00:26:29Marc:Oh, so it hasn't revealed itself yet?

00:26:31Guest:It hasn't reared its ugly head yet.

00:26:34Marc:All right, we're going to talk all day.

00:26:35Marc:The book, good book.

00:26:38Marc:This book has balls, sports rants from the MVP of Talking Trash.

00:26:42Marc:I always like talking to you.

00:26:43Marc:I love talking to you.

00:26:45Marc:I imagine you could.

00:26:46Marc:Sometimes I feel like you could be talking, and I could be like, I'll be right back.

00:26:50Guest:Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

00:26:52Guest:Just kidding.

00:26:53Guest:This is Michael Rappaport hosting the Marc Maron Perry podcast for Marc Maron.

00:26:57Marc:Exactly.

00:26:57Guest:You do it.

00:26:58Guest:You step right up.

00:26:59Marc:Good seeing you, man.

00:27:00Guest:Thank you, Marc.

00:27:00Guest:I appreciate it.

00:27:05Marc:Michael Rappaport, right?

00:27:08Marc:True character.

00:27:09Marc:True New York character.

00:27:10Marc:His book is called This Book Has Balls, Sports Rants from the MVP of Talking Trash.

00:27:15Marc:You can get that where you get books.

00:27:17Marc:John Hammond.

00:27:18Marc:You know, I thought about this talk that I had with him.

00:27:21Marc:A lot after I had it.

00:27:26Marc:His father was John Hammond Jr., who was a very famous A&R guy at Columbia Records, I believe, who signed Billie Holiday, Bob Dylan.

00:27:38Marc:He was involved all the way back, seemingly to the beginning of music, but he was Bruce Springsteen he signed.

00:27:45Marc:He was a sort of ever-present, sort of mythic A&R guy.

00:27:51Marc:And John Hammond, who I talked to today, is his son.

00:27:56Marc:It was not a close relationship from what I understand.

00:27:59Marc:And I don't know that I really got to the core of John Hammond here.

00:28:04Marc:But what's at the core is some real blues.

00:28:07Marc:That's for sure.

00:28:08Marc:And maybe some of that is from...

00:28:12Marc:that father and son relationship, I don't know.

00:28:15Marc:Maybe you can hear it underneath this conversation.

00:28:19Marc:I'm not one to psychoanalyze.

00:28:21Marc:I don't want to talk too much shit before interviews.

00:28:25Marc:But I found it resonant with me thinking about what that relationship must have been like.

00:28:31Marc:But my experience with John Hammond as a musician, like I had this one record years ago in high school.

00:28:37Marc:I don't even know where I got it.

00:28:38Marc:I probably got it from a box of records that they didn't want to play at the record store next to where I made sandwiches at the Posh Bagel on Central across from University of New Mexico next to Budget Records, which...

00:28:50Marc:dealt in mostly R&B sounds.

00:28:52Marc:At the time that I got the records, the owners were kind of R&B people and they had this box of records that they weren't gonna play in the store.

00:28:59Marc:In that box of records, some of them changed my life.

00:29:03Marc:Certainly Elvis Costello's first record and the John Hammond mileage album.

00:29:08Marc:And I just, I never heard anyone play like that.

00:29:12Marc:He plays harmonica and he plays guitar.

00:29:16Marc:Sometimes he plays a resonator guitar, a steel resonator guitar.

00:29:21Marc:And he does it simultaneously and he sings.

00:29:24Marc:And there's a pace to it, there's an intensity to it.

00:29:27Marc:There's something truly unique about the way John Hammond plays and sings.

00:29:31Marc:And he's been doing it forever.

00:29:33Marc:Back in the day, there were records that he made with all different types of bands.

00:29:37Marc:He made some stuff I didn't realize with Dwayne Allman.

00:29:40Marc:He, you know, he did records with Levon Helm, Robbie Robertson way back in the day.

00:29:47Marc:He did.

00:29:48Marc:He had a great combo for a while on SourcePoint.

00:29:51Marc:And they're just an entire history of music with this guy that goes all the way back to the all the way back to the late 60s.

00:30:00Marc:But the thing that I was a strange fan because of this one record mileage for years and I was visiting my brother.

00:30:06Marc:For some reason I was in Tucson, Arizona.

00:30:10Marc:My brother was going to school there.

00:30:11Marc:I don't remember what year it was.

00:30:12Marc:I know I wasn't sober necessarily.

00:30:15Marc:I don't know.

00:30:16Marc:I can't place it in time.

00:30:19Marc:But this is my memory of it.

00:30:20Marc:I went there, I was with my brother, and in the paper somewhere we saw that John Hammond was playing at the Tucson Blues Society.

00:30:28Marc:I don't even know if that exists or what it is.

00:30:30Marc:Maybe they didn't have their own venue.

00:30:33Marc:But I remember going to a small space.

00:30:36Marc:Didn't feel like a performance space.

00:30:37Marc:It felt like a bar.

00:30:39Marc:And it was me and my friend Laura Madden, who was living in Tucson at the time, and my brother.

00:30:45Marc:And we went into this room and there was no opening act, no nothing.

00:30:48Marc:And from what I recall was maybe 40 people.

00:30:51Marc:And I don't know how they brought him out or why.

00:30:54Marc:It must have been a bar.

00:30:55Marc:I don't know.

00:30:58Marc:But I'd never seen John Hammond and I'd never seen anything like this.

00:31:02Marc:You know, he came out with a national resonator guitar.

00:31:07Marc:And this is my recollection.

00:31:11Marc:And he did Robert Johnson's Hellhounds on My Trail.

00:31:19Marc:And that's a tricky song because it's kind of not a full song.

00:31:23Marc:It's sort of a meditation.

00:31:26Marc:It's sort of a haunted thing, that bit.

00:31:31Marc:And he just summoned the spirit of the history of blues and it all came out of him.

00:31:36Marc:The authenticity of his particular type of singing and his presence and the immediacy of what he does is mind-blowing.

00:31:44Marc:He didn't want to play when I had him over.

00:31:45Marc:I don't know why.

00:31:47Marc:but it doesn't matter, you can go listen to him.

00:31:50Marc:It would have been great, but it didn't happen.

00:31:53Marc:But when he played Hellhounds on My Trail, and I saw that that night in Tucson, Arizona for 40 people, this blues wizard, it just changed everything I understood or knew about the blues and made it very personal and very immediate and he was just a portal to the pain that has always existed

00:32:15Marc:In humanity and in that music.

00:32:18Marc:And for those reasons.

00:32:21Marc:For those reasons.

00:32:21Marc:What reasons?

00:32:23Marc:All the reasons.

00:32:24Marc:Anyways.

00:32:26Marc:I went and saw him down here at McCaves, and he was just as amazing as ever.

00:32:30Marc:I met his wife, and they just traveled together, just him and her in the dressing room, and it was great.

00:32:37Marc:It was very exciting for me.

00:32:40Marc:I wanted to share my excitement about John Hammond with you folks, and maybe you go listen to some John Hammond music.

00:32:47Marc:He's going to be in the New York City area tomorrow night, Friday, November 4th,

00:32:53Marc:at the Town Crier in Beacon, New York.

00:32:56Marc:And I would go see him if he could.

00:32:57Marc:This is me and the amazing John Hammond.

00:33:07Guest:Ash Grove was one of the great clubs ever.

00:33:11Guest:Yeah?

00:33:12Guest:It was out here?

00:33:12Guest:Yeah.

00:33:14Guest:8162 Melrose.

00:33:16Marc:Oh, I know.

00:33:16Marc:I think someone else told me about that place.

00:33:19Marc:It became a comedy club.

00:33:20Marc:Yeah, the improv.

00:33:21Marc:Yes, exactly.

00:33:23Marc:And back in the day, it was like they had all kinds of music, right?

00:33:25Marc:It was the best.

00:33:26Marc:It was like, but not just blues, everything.

00:33:29Marc:Everything.

00:33:29Marc:Bluegrass.

00:33:31Marc:Jazz, poetry.

00:33:33Guest:That's what became the improv.

00:33:35Guest:That's crazy.

00:33:36Guest:Back in the day, Cheech and Chong were a folk duo.

00:33:40Guest:Yeah.

00:33:40Guest:They did songs, and between songs, they had this patter that became so hysterical, the audience didn't want to hear the music anymore.

00:33:49Marc:Is that what happened?

00:33:51Guest:Yeah.

00:33:51Guest:I mean, they're both really good guitar players.

00:33:54Marc:Yeah.

00:33:54Marc:Well, I know that Tommy was a songwriter and part of an R&B outfit, Canadian R&B outfit.

00:33:59Guest:Yeah, I think from Vancouver.

00:34:01Marc:Yeah, he's from Vancouver.

00:34:02Guest:And Rich Marin, he lived not far from the Ashgrove.

00:34:07Guest:And they used to come hear me play.

00:34:09Guest:And when they hit with their record, they said, how'd you like to go on tour with us?

00:34:16Guest:So, I opened for them for a bunch of times and all through the Midwest on little chartered planes and stuff.

00:34:24Guest:On that first record, yeah.

00:34:25Marc:Oh, man.

00:34:26Marc:They were huge.

00:34:27Guest:Oh, they were so funny.

00:34:29Guest:I mean, genuinely funny.

00:34:31Marc:Yeah.

00:34:31Marc:They were in here together not long ago, a few years ago.

00:34:35Marc:And they were in and out as friends, but they're very close no matter what.

00:34:40Marc:But to hear them both on mic in my head just talking, I was like, oh, shit, that's a ginger chunk.

00:34:46Marc:I know, it's wild.

00:34:48Marc:Yeah, they were great.

00:34:49Marc:Well, I think the first record I had of yours, I'm 54, I just turned 54 yesterday.

00:34:54Marc:And somehow, I don't remember how I got- Happy birthday.

00:34:57Marc:Well, thank you very much.

00:34:59Marc:But I've always been sort of a blues freak since I was a kid because someone turned me on to it.

00:35:02Marc:But the first record I got of yours was Mileage.

00:35:05Marc:Mileage.

00:35:06Marc:Yeah.

00:35:06Marc:And I don't know where it came from in my back, but I had it in high school.

00:35:10Marc:And that, you know, Riding in the Moonlight?

00:35:12Marc:Yeah.

00:35:12Marc:That guitar on that?

00:35:14Marc:It just killed me, man.

00:35:15Marc:That album's great.

00:35:16Marc:But that was the door in, right?

00:35:19Marc:And then, you know, as I get older, I realize, well, he's done 100 records.

00:35:22Yeah.

00:35:22Marc:There's a lot of records.

00:35:24Guest:A lot of records.

00:35:25Marc:And then I kind of... Just the other day, I picked up one... What's it called?

00:35:33Marc:It was the one where I look at the back.

00:35:34Marc:I had no idea.

00:35:35Marc:67, maybe the fourth record.

00:35:37Marc:67.

00:35:37Marc:And I'm looking at the players, and it's Robbie Robertson, Levon Helm, Bloomfield on piano.

00:35:46Guest:Right, Charlie Musselwhite's first recording session.

00:35:48Guest:Oh, was it really?

00:35:49Guest:Yeah.

00:35:50Guest:Oh, he's a hell of a harp player.

00:35:51Guest:He's still around, right?

00:35:52Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:35:53Guest:He's doing better than ever.

00:35:55Guest:Oh, yeah?

00:35:55Guest:He's up in the Bay Area?

00:35:56Guest:He's up in, well, north of the Bay Area.

00:35:59Guest:And he's doing some touring, I think, with Ben Harper.

00:36:04Guest:Okay.

00:36:05Guest:All right.

00:36:06Guest:He's doing really well.

00:36:07Guest:He was with Cyndi Lauper on her blues adventure.

00:36:11Guest:No kidding.

00:36:12Guest:She did a blues adventure?

00:36:13Guest:Yep, she did.

00:36:15Marc:What is that?

00:36:16Marc:I know.

00:36:16Marc:Give me a break.

00:36:17Marc:What does that mean?

00:36:19Marc:So, which one?

00:36:20Guest:Oh, that's So Many Roads, right?

00:36:21Guest:So Many Roads, right?

00:36:23Guest:1964.

00:36:24Marc:But like, you're like, you've been, and then I saw you, I saw you, this is weird, because it was a pretty big moment for me.

00:36:31Marc:I was visiting my brother in Tucson.

00:36:33Marc:In Tucson, yeah.

00:36:34Marc:And you were like at the Tucson Blues Society.

00:36:37Marc:Uh-huh.

00:36:37Marc:Something like that.

00:36:38Marc:And I was in town, I'm like, that can't be, what, he's just going to be here?

00:36:42Marc:And there must have been like 40 people there.

00:36:44Marc:Yeah.

00:36:44Marc:But the thing was amazing, though, you played Hellhounds, and you just summoned the thing.

00:36:50Marc:I mean, I've never heard... Because when you listen to the Robert Johnson records, you can't picture that stuff being activated in the sense of being live, but you did it.

00:37:02Guest:I do so many Robert Johnson songs, yeah.

00:37:05Marc:Was that a relationship that, in terms of your relationship with that music, did that come later?

00:37:11Marc:Or was that there at the beginning?

00:37:13Guest:It was there in the beginning.

00:37:15Guest:I first heard Robert Johnson on a Folkways album called The Country Blues.

00:37:22Guest:Yeah.

00:37:22Guest:That Sam Charters produced.

00:37:24Guest:Yeah.

00:37:25Guest:It was out of his collection, I'm sure.

00:37:28Yeah.

00:37:28Guest:And there was just one cut, and who is this guy, you know?

00:37:32Guest:So I made it a... What cut was it?

00:37:36Guest:Preaching Blues.

00:37:37Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:38Guest:And then it became a quest to find out if he had recorded other things.

00:37:43Guest:Nobody seemed to know anything about it.

00:37:44Marc:Were you playing already?

00:37:46Guest:No, I was just a fan.

00:37:47Guest:Like, how old were you when you first heard that stuff?

00:37:51Guest:Oh, 16.

00:37:52Guest:Uh-huh, uh-huh.

00:37:53Guest:And...

00:37:54Guest:So I found two other cuts of his on a Origin of Jazz Library.

00:38:02Guest:I think it was Swedish label or something.

00:38:04Guest:Isn't that wild?

00:38:04Guest:And found two more.

00:38:07Guest:So they hadn't put it all out.

00:38:08Guest:They hadn't put that collection out yet.

00:38:09Guest:No, no.

00:38:11Guest:My dad was responsible for that.

00:38:13Guest:See, I didn't really grow up with my dad.

00:38:15Marc:John Hammond Sr.?

00:38:16Guest:Yeah, I knew him on occasion, you know, from, you know, weekends, certain weekends, two weeks in the summer, that kind of deal.

00:38:24Marc:But he signed Billie Holiday, right?

00:38:27Marc:Dylan, Springsteen, all of them.

00:38:30Guest:But you weren't hanging out there.

00:38:32Guest:No, no, I didn't hang out with him.

00:38:33Guest:So one day I was up at his house.

00:38:35Guest:Yeah.

00:38:36Guest:And I said, Dad, have you ever heard of a guy named Robert Johnson?

00:38:39Guest:He said, funny you should ask.

00:38:42Guest:And then he was trying to get him to play at his Spirituals to Swing concert in 1938.

00:38:48Guest:Yeah.

00:38:48Guest:And he had tracked him down and found out he had died.

00:38:52Guest:Ooh.

00:38:53Guest:Yeah.

00:38:54Guest:So he said not only that, and he opens his cabinet, and he had four Robert Johnson records.

00:39:03Guest:The 78s?

00:39:04Guest:On Vocalion, yeah.

00:39:05Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:39:05Guest:Oh, my God.

00:39:06Guest:Yeah.

00:39:07Guest:It was like a treasure trove.

00:39:08Guest:Oh, my God.

00:39:09Guest:I couldn't believe it.

00:39:10Guest:I felt the hair stand on my neck kind of.

00:39:12Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:39:13Guest:And he introduced me to this guy in Columbia who was in charge of the archives named Frank Driggs.

00:39:19Marc:Your dad did.

00:39:20Marc:Yeah.

00:39:20Guest:And Frank made me a tape, a reel-to-reel tape of like 12 Robert Johnson songs.

00:39:27Guest:It was like I died and gone to heaven kind of, and it was just unbelievable.

00:39:33Guest:So you were 16 about?

00:39:34Guest:No, I was 17 by then.

00:39:36Guest:Yeah.

00:39:37Guest:The album was released in 1960?

00:39:39Guest:Yeah.

00:39:41Guest:Those 30 songs or however many there were?

00:39:42Marc:No, there weren't that many.

00:39:43Guest:There was like 12, I think.

00:39:45Guest:And that was it.

00:39:46Guest:And that was it.

00:39:47Guest:Well, there were others.

00:39:48Guest:There were outtakes and stuff.

00:39:50Guest:But the king of the Delta Blues was that album.

00:39:57Guest:And not long after that, I started playing guitarra.

00:40:01Marc:Your old man put that out.

00:40:03Marc:He did.

00:40:04Guest:He produced it.

00:40:04Guest:And Frank Driggs was the guy who engineered it and made it sound really good.

00:40:11Marc:So that was your moment.

00:40:13Guest:That was a moment, yeah.

00:40:15Guest:I mean, I was a blues fanatic at that point.

00:40:17Guest:I was into Blind Boy Fuller, Blind Willie McTell, all the country blues guys.

00:40:25Marc:Who was the guy that lived in New York that Top Bromberg had to play?

00:40:28Marc:Which one was that?

00:40:29Guest:Maybe Gary Davis.

00:40:30Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:40:31Marc:Reverend Gary Davis.

00:40:32Guest:Yeah.

00:40:32Guest:I mean, he was in the Bronx.

00:40:35Guest:Yeah.

00:40:36Guest:I went to his house once.

00:40:37Guest:You did too?

00:40:37Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:40:40Guest:Yorma Kalkinen was like a real fan of his too.

00:40:44Guest:I went to school at Antioch College in Ohio.

00:40:49Guest:And Yorma Kalkinen was a student there, older than me by a year.

00:40:57Uh-huh.

00:40:57Guest:And he and this guy named Ian Buchanan were the guitar players.

00:41:02Guest:Uh-huh.

00:41:03Guest:And Ian Buchanan was like a really great guitar player and a good singer too.

00:41:09Guest:He was very shy.

00:41:10Guest:Yeah.

00:41:11Guest:So he never really got a career going for himself, but he was really phenomenal.

00:41:16Guest:And Jorma was hanging out with him all the time.

00:41:19Guest:Uh-huh.

00:41:20Guest:He played a lot of Blind Boy Fuller stuff and a lot of that Piedmont style.

00:41:24Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:41:25Guest:I used to watch them play and say, oh.

00:41:26Guest:Holy shit.

00:41:28Guest:Unbelievable.

00:41:29Guest:You were playing at that point?

00:41:30Guest:I had just bought a guitar, and I was too shy to ask anybody to show me anything, but I watched, and I picked up stuff, and oh, 1961 is when I started to really get intensely into it.

00:41:45Guest:So you grew up in New York City.

00:41:47Guest:I grew up in New York City.

00:41:48Guest:I went to art school in Skowhegan, Maine.

00:41:53Guest:And your folks weren't together.

00:41:54Guest:No, no.

00:41:55Guest:I grew up with my mother and my brother Jason.

00:41:58Guest:Yeah.

00:41:59Guest:In the village.

00:42:01Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:42:01Guest:Yeah.

00:42:01Guest:And so I watched the whole village scene.

00:42:05Guest:What did you go to art school for?

00:42:06Guest:I was a painter and a sculptor.

00:42:08Guest:That's what I did.

00:42:08Guest:That's what I was good at.

00:42:10Guest:Everything else was weird.

00:42:11Guest:When you were a kid?

00:42:12Guest:Yeah.

00:42:12Guest:Uh-huh.

00:42:13Guest:And so I got into this very prestigious art school.

00:42:17Guest:One of my roommates was a guy named David Goetz.

00:42:20Guest:Yeah.

00:42:21Guest:And David was a really good painter.

00:42:24Guest:Yeah.

00:42:24Guest:One of the teachers there was Alex Katz.

00:42:28Guest:Oh, sure.

00:42:29Guest:Yeah.

00:42:29Marc:I know his work.

00:42:30Guest:Talk like this.

00:42:31Guest:He's from Brooklyn.

00:42:31Guest:He says, I'm a painter.

00:42:34Guest:Not a painter, a painter.

00:42:36Guest:He was such a character and such a phenomenal painter and a good teacher.

00:42:42Guest:David Goetz was one of my roommates and I had a collection of 45s.

00:42:46Guest:Yeah.

00:42:47Guest:and they everybody wanted my records you know so we'd there'd be parties yeah i was 17 i was the the youngest student ever there uh-huh and all these guys were like uh uh scholarship guys from really well-known art schools and stuff and uh

00:43:06Guest:And you were this kid.

00:43:07Guest:And so, yeah, I was the kid.

00:43:10Guest:And David, after Skowhegan, he went to the San Francisco School of Fine Arts.

00:43:15Guest:And he loved to play drums and stuff.

00:43:18Guest:So, he was always fooling around and stuff.

00:43:21Guest:Well, he put together Big Brother and the Holding Company.

00:43:23Guest:No kidding.

00:43:24Guest:He was the drummer.

00:43:25Guest:Yeah.

00:43:25Guest:He was the one who got Janis Joplin and stuff.

00:43:29Guest:And it's a small world, you know.

00:43:30Guest:Well, it was then.

00:43:32Guest:Yeah.

00:43:32Marc:You know, I don't know if it's small anymore.

00:43:36Marc:But it's certainly like that's always fascinates me about the scene.

00:43:39Marc:Yeah.

00:43:39Marc:Because like, you know, you're only like the folk scene was rock and roll officially starts in 57 and the folk scene was even more intimate.

00:43:47Marc:And so, you know, it all you were there at the beginning.

00:43:50Marc:Yeah.

00:43:51Marc:At that stuff.

00:43:52Marc:So it all happened.

00:43:53Guest:So why'd you why'd you give a painting?

00:43:55Guest:uh because i once i had that guitar and started to sing those songs that i loved uh i just that's all i wanted to do it's like i found my calling so you you start playing guitar at what age 61 i was uh 18. that's late yeah i guess but i knew all the songs i knew all the words and because you've been listening to the blues for so long and wandering around the village

00:44:21Marc:Yes.

00:44:23Marc:Were you going to see those guys before you started playing?

00:44:25Guest:I saw Josh White and Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee, Lead Belly once.

00:44:31Guest:But when I was seven, my father took me to hear Big Bill Brunzi.

00:44:36Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:44:38Guest:This is 1949.

00:44:39Guest:Wow.

00:44:39Guest:And Big Bill was unbelievable.

00:44:43Guest:And my father knew him.

00:44:44Guest:Yeah.

00:44:45Guest:And so he introduced me to him.

00:44:47Guest:And I was awed.

00:44:48Guest:I think that was the point at which I...

00:44:51Guest:I knew that blues was in me somehow because, I mean, I really connected to that music.

00:44:56Guest:It really is in you.

00:44:58Guest:I guess after 55 years on the road, I guess.

00:45:02Marc:No, but like even at the beginning, I mean, your feel for it is insane.

00:45:05Marc:I mean, no one plays like you and the depth of it, because that's the experience I had listening to Hellhounds when you sat there with that national guitar in a small room with 40, 50 people in it.

00:45:17Marc:And it was like you brought that thing to life.

00:45:21Marc:And it's a dark bit of business.

00:45:23Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:45:25Guest:No, I mean, I was into it completely.

00:45:28Guest:You know, I think that club was called Terry and Zeke's Friendly Bar.

00:45:33Guest:In Tucson?

00:45:33Guest:In Tucson.

00:45:34Guest:And there was a great DJ called Kid Squid.

00:45:38Guest:And Kid Squid had this...

00:45:40Guest:great collection of records i mean all kind of stuff yeah blues to you know funky r&b to uh uh a lot of uh rockabilly stuff i mean he was the best dj i ever heard and he made me up some cassettes for the road you know oh yeah oh they were phenomenal that's sweet in 1961 you know i i made a trek to chicago hoping to see muddy waters or howling yeah yeah yeah

00:46:10Guest:And I met Michael Bloomfield and Charlie Musselwhite.

00:46:13Guest:And they took me all around to all these clubs.

00:46:18Guest:And I got to see Wolf and Muddy.

00:46:20Guest:No kidding.

00:46:21Guest:And not only was Michael a great guitar player, Muddy and Wolf would call him up to sit in on the bandstand.

00:46:29Guest:and no shit god he was 17 and i was 18 and he was just amazing and you just met him you just found it at the university of chicago there was a folk festival okay and uh and you went and you went to see it no yeah i went i didn't know chicago at all and then i met michael and them and they showed me around and charlie was a kid too charlie was a kid too if you turned sideways you couldn't see him oh really string bean lanky oh yeah

00:46:54Marc:So that was before Bloomfield was playing with anybody.

00:46:56Marc:That's before he was playing with anybody.

00:46:58Marc:With Paul Butterfield, right?

00:47:00Guest:Well, I mean, Paul and Michael had a kind of love-hate relationship.

00:47:05Marc:Wasn't he in the band or no?

00:47:06Guest:Oh, he was eventually.

00:47:09Guest:But the way it turned out was that Paul wanted to be the guy.

00:47:15Guest:Yeah.

00:47:17Guest:He had Elvin Bishop playing guitar with him.

00:47:20Guest:Right.

00:47:21Guest:And he wouldn't let Elvin take a solo.

00:47:23Guest:Right.

00:47:23Guest:But he's a harmonica player.

00:47:25Guest:Paul.

00:47:25Guest:Yeah.

00:47:26Guest:Yeah.

00:47:26Guest:He took all the solos.

00:47:27Guest:So no guitar solos.

00:47:30Guest:Just in the pocket.

00:47:31Guest:No kidding.

00:47:32Guest:So Electra Records said the only way we'll record you, Paul, is if you have a lead guitar player.

00:47:40Guest:And it's got to be Michael Bloomfield.

00:47:42Guest:And I don't think Paul was very happy about that.

00:47:47Guest:But they made some great records.

00:47:49Marc:They did.

00:47:50Marc:And Bloomfield went on to play with Dylan in the seminal sort of first electric thing.

00:47:55Guest:I introduced him to Dylan.

00:47:56Guest:You did?

00:47:57Guest:I introduced the band to Dylan.

00:48:01Guest:Come on.

00:48:01Guest:Dylan and I were really good friends.

00:48:03Guest:When Bob first moved to New York...

00:48:06Guest:There were three guys, Kerner, Ray, and Glover.

00:48:10Guest:And they were from Minneapolis.

00:48:11Guest:Yeah.

00:48:12Guest:And they were hanging out in New York playing gigs at coffee houses.

00:48:17Guest:And they were really good.

00:48:18Guest:Yeah.

00:48:20Guest:Dave Ray played a 12-string guitar.

00:48:23Guest:Uh-huh.

00:48:23Guest:John Kerner played six-string.

00:48:25Guest:And Tony Glover played harmonica.

00:48:28Guest:Uh-huh.

00:48:28Guest:And they were just wonderful.

00:48:30Guest:Yeah.

00:48:30Guest:And when Dylan came to New York, they introduced me to Bob.

00:48:34Yeah.

00:48:34Guest:Oh, because they were from Minneapolis.

00:48:37Guest:Yeah, and we got along really well right off the bat, and Bob was like a Woody Guthrie guy.

00:48:45Guest:He had talking blues and stuff, and he was fantastic.

00:48:49Guest:I mean, what a great solo man.

00:48:51Guest:That guy could really grab you.

00:48:53Guest:Yeah.

00:48:54Marc:Was he hanging out with Ramblin' Jack then?

00:48:56Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:48:57Guest:The whole folk scene was so intense.

00:48:59Guest:Dave Van Ronk and all...

00:49:02Guest:All these great players in New York, I mean.

00:49:04Guest:And you were in it, too?

00:49:05Guest:Oh, yeah, I was hanging.

00:49:06Guest:I was there.

00:49:07Guest:What year was this, you think?

00:49:09Guest:1961 and 2.

00:49:10Guest:So, you're playing out now.

00:49:12Guest:Yeah, I'm playing in little clubs, the past year had coffee houses.

00:49:18Guest:But not like Café Wah?

00:49:20Guest:Well, the Café Wah didn't come until a little later.

00:49:22Guest:Okay.

00:49:23Guest:But there were others, the Fat Black Pussycat and all these joints.

00:49:28Guest:Yeah.

00:49:28Guest:And me and Dylan, Richie Havens, John Sebastian, a guy who called himself a Juan Moreno.

00:49:38Guest:I think his name was Peter Cohen.

00:49:42Guest:Yeah.

00:49:42Guest:But he played flamenco style.

00:49:45Guest:Yeah.

00:49:45Guest:It was a scene.

00:49:46Guest:It was really a great scene.

00:49:48Guest:It was intense.

00:49:49Guest:And this is before it blew up.

00:49:50Marc:This was like as it was.

00:49:51Guest:This was 61, early 62.

00:49:54Marc:And there was that one record store that had.

00:49:58Marc:The Folklore Center?

00:49:58Marc:Yeah.

00:49:59Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:49:59Marc:It was like the headquarters.

00:50:01Guest:Izzy Young ran the whole thing.

00:50:04Guest:Dave Van Ronk was like the mayor.

00:50:07Guest:Right.

00:50:07Guest:He knew everybody.

00:50:08Guest:Anybody coming through that played a little blues or whatever would hang out with Dave Van Ronk.

00:50:14Marc:And then those old blues guys got integrated into this scene, correct?

00:50:18Marc:Later.

00:50:18Marc:Oh, it was later.

00:50:19Marc:So you meet Dylan and you meet the guys from the band.

00:50:23Guest:No, no, no.

00:50:23Guest:Okay.

00:50:23Guest:I was playing gigs starting 62.

00:50:26Guest:My career, I came to Los Angeles in March of 62.

00:50:33Guest:Really?

00:50:34Guest:And I started my whole career here.

00:50:36Guest:No kidding.

00:50:36Guest:I went as far away from home as I could get and made myself up and was playing at the Ash Grove and the Troubadour.

00:50:44Guest:You moved here.

00:50:46Guest:I moved here, yeah.

00:50:48Guest:I was ready to be somebody else.

00:50:51Guest:I wanted to be John Hammond, the blues singer.

00:50:53Marc:Not John Hammond, the kid of the guy.

00:50:57Marc:Right.

00:50:58Guest:Lots of luck with that.

00:50:59Guest:From the neighborhood.

00:51:00Guest:Yeah.

00:51:00Marc:Or the painter.

00:51:01Guest:But anyway, I was out here for about eight months.

00:51:05Guest:I got my first gig through Hoyt Axton.

00:51:08Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:51:09Guest:Hoyt was just the greatest guy.

00:51:11Guest:Oh, man.

00:51:12Guest:What a wonderful human being.

00:51:15Guest:And he got me my first paying gig at Southgate, the satire club.

00:51:19Guest:Frank and Joyce Thompson owned this place, and it was wonderful.

00:51:24Guest:From there, I played at the Insomniac.

00:51:27Marc:Where was that?

00:51:27Guest:Bob Hare, that was in Hermosa Beach.

00:51:29Guest:Oh, wow.

00:51:29Guest:Oh, and these were paying gigs.

00:51:32Guest:And you're with the band or just on the guitar?

00:51:33Guest:No, I was just playing solo.

00:51:36Guest:To me, that was the art.

00:51:37Guest:If you could pull it off as a solo, that was like being Robert Johnson or Willie McTell or Blind Boy Full.

00:51:44Guest:That was the thing for me.

00:51:47Guest:So anyway, I worked all these gigs out here.

00:51:49Guest:Who are you working with?

00:51:50Guest:Who's on the shows with you?

00:51:52Guest:Oh, God.

00:51:52Guest:I was so many.

00:51:54Guest:I played at the Ash Grove as an audition for opening for the Staples Singers.

00:52:02Guest:Oh.

00:52:02Guest:And that was, they were awesome.

00:52:05Guest:They were just pops on guitar, Roebuck Staples, Mavis, Purvis, and Cleotha.

00:52:12Guest:Yeah.

00:52:12Guest:I saw you open for them, I think, at the bottom line.

00:52:15Marc:Yeah.

00:52:15Marc:Like maybe a decade ago or so.

00:52:17Marc:Is that possible?

00:52:18Marc:It's very possible.

00:52:19Marc:And I remember- I worked a lot of shows.

00:52:21Marc:I remember watching you and I saw a string pop in the second song and I was like, oh, God damn it.

00:52:25Marc:Now he's got to deal with that.

00:52:26Guest:I can change it in 20 seconds.

00:52:28Guest:No problem.

00:52:29Guest:Anyway... Yeah, so, okay, so Staples and... And Pop Staples, you know, I played my little set and he came up to me and he said, Son, I don't know how in the world you learn to play like that, but whatever you do, don't stop.

00:52:45Guest:And it just...

00:52:46Guest:Filled me with a whole room.

00:52:48Guest:I just knew this was going to happen.

00:52:52Guest:Anyway, I got to meet all these players out here.

00:52:58Guest:I started to work often at the Ashgrove.

00:53:01Guest:The Ashgrove was the greatest club.

00:53:04Guest:I worked shows there with Lightning Hopkins, with Doc Watson.

00:53:08Guest:Yeah, Taj said he used to be a door guy there.

00:53:10Guest:Yeah, he was.

00:53:12Guest:That's who it was.

00:53:13Guest:Taj moved here from Boston.

00:53:14Guest:Yeah.

00:53:15Guest:And Taj put together The Rising Suns.

00:53:19Guest:They were so good.

00:53:21Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:53:22Guest:That first record?

00:53:23Guest:Oh.

00:53:24Guest:Yeah.

00:53:26Marc:That sounds like a chess record, that first record.

00:53:27Marc:I mean, Ry Cooter.

00:53:28Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:53:28Guest:And Jesse Ed Davis.

00:53:30Guest:Oh, my God.

00:53:30Guest:God, these guys could really play.

00:53:32Guest:And Taj was a great harmonica player and a great guitar player.

00:53:35Guest:He was the real deal.

00:53:37Guest:And you said you opened for Wolf?

00:53:39Guest:Yeah, I opened for Wolf at the Ashgrove for a week.

00:53:42Guest:It was incredible.

00:53:43Guest:His whole band with Hubert and the guys?

00:53:45Guest:Yeah, Hubert, the whole package.

00:53:47Guest:Wow.

00:53:48Guest:And Wolf told me stories and stuff.

00:53:51Guest:I mean...

00:53:51Guest:He was really nice to me.

00:53:53Guest:He really thought I could play.

00:53:55Guest:You can play.

00:53:56Guest:But you were like 22?

00:53:57Guest:I was less.

00:53:59Guest:I was maybe 20, 21.

00:54:01Guest:And it was just you and the guitar?

00:54:03Guest:Yes, that's all I aspired.

00:54:06Guest:And then I came back to New York and I auditioned at Gertie's Folk City, which was the club in New York.

00:54:15Guest:And I...

00:54:18Guest:Got the gig, and me and Phil Oakes played for a week and were held over for a week.

00:54:23Guest:Wow.

00:54:23Guest:And we both got signed up to Vanguard Records.

00:54:26Guest:Vanguard, yeah.

00:54:27Guest:I've been playing for less than a year professionally, and I had my first recording deal.

00:54:32Guest:And I knew Bob really well at the time.

00:54:35Guest:Bob Dylan?

00:54:36Marc:Bob, yeah.

00:54:36Guest:Bob was the guy.

00:54:38Guest:You still talk to him?

00:54:39Guest:No.

00:54:40Guest:Not really?

00:54:40Guest:No, Bob is, you know.

00:54:42Guest:He's off in Bob land.

00:54:43Guest:Yes.

00:54:44Guest:Yeah.

00:54:44Guest:But I mean, you know, he was just, I think he's incredible.

00:54:50Guest:Sure, yeah.

00:54:51Guest:And anyway, I was playing gigs.

00:54:54Guest:I got a manager and an agent in 63, Manny Greenhill, Folklore Productions.

00:55:00Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:55:00Guest:And I got all these gigs in Canada, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal.

00:55:05Guest:Really?

00:55:05Guest:Did they like you better up there or something?

00:55:07Guest:No, there was a folk scene that was happening.

00:55:09Guest:There was a circuit.

00:55:10Marc:So this is still before the blues folded in.

00:55:13Marc:Or around the same time where the old blue, the guy.

00:55:16Guest:I was playing gigs in Toronto and a guy came backstage after one of my shows and said, hey, listen, there's a band playing in town at the Concord Tavern.

00:55:26Guest:You got to come check them out.

00:55:27Guest:Yeah.

00:55:28Guest:So it was Levon and the Hawks.

00:55:30Guest:Yeah.

00:55:31Guest:And they were incredible.

00:55:33Guest:Yeah.

00:55:33Guest:And Robbie was like so intense, such a great guitar player.

00:55:37Guest:And Levon could sing his ass off.

00:55:39Guest:And they had a piano player named...

00:55:43Guest:Richard Manuel, and he was phenomenal.

00:55:47Guest:Yeah.

00:55:47Guest:And he could sing, too.

00:55:49Guest:I mean, they were great.

00:55:50Guest:So anyway, they would call me up and sit in, and we became really good friends.

00:55:55Marc:You'd go sit in with them.

00:55:55Marc:Yeah.

00:55:56Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:55:56Guest:And then they would come down.

00:56:00Guest:They were the backup band for Ronnie Hawkins.

00:56:02Guest:Ronnie Hawkins, yeah, yeah.

00:56:02Guest:And they left Ronnie and went out on their own, but played a lot of the same gigs that Ronnie played when he came to the U.S.,

00:56:10Guest:So they'd come down to Jersey Shore.

00:56:14Guest:Tony Mart was one of the clubs they played and Joey D's Starlighter Lounge.

00:56:20Guest:And I'd come and sit in with them and stuff.

00:56:24Guest:And one day they were trying to get a recording deal in New York and it wasn't happening.

00:56:31Guest:I was already signed to Vanguard.

00:56:32Guest:Yeah.

00:56:33Guest:So I said, well, how would you guys like to play with me on a record?

00:56:36Guest:Yeah.

00:56:37Guest:I said, sure.

00:56:37Guest:What the heck?

00:56:38Guest:Yeah.

00:56:39Guest:So I invited Bob to the session, and Michael Bloomfield and Charlie were in town that week.

00:56:46Guest:And we had one session.

00:56:47Guest:That's three hours.

00:56:48Guest:And we made that whole album in three hours.

00:56:51Marc:In so many roads?

00:56:52Marc:So many roads.

00:56:52Guest:Three hours.

00:56:53Guest:Yeah.

00:56:54Guest:Vanguard thought that they were kind of scruffy.

00:56:56Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:56:58Guest:Yeah.

00:56:58Guest:But anyway, I mean, it came out real good.

00:57:01Guest:I introduced everybody to Dylan.

00:57:03Guest:The next thing I know, Robbie and Levon are playing with Dylan, you know.

00:57:08Guest:Wow.

00:57:09Guest:So I'd introduced them all to Dylan, who used everybody.

00:57:12Guest:He used Michael Bloomfield.

00:57:14Guest:I mean, Bob and I were really good friends, and he really respected where I came from.

00:57:20Marc:Well, it was probably, too, because that wasn't really his world.

00:57:24Marc:He was a blues fan, though, always.

00:57:28Marc:Right, but he really built the folk thing.

00:57:30Guest:That's right.

00:57:31Guest:So when he broke out, it was monumental.

00:57:34Marc:And it was a smart next step, you know, the blues, electric blues.

00:57:38Marc:It was his thing.

00:57:39Guest:It was his thing.

00:57:39Guest:He really had the vision.

00:57:43Marc:I talked to Robbie.

00:57:44Marc:You did?

00:57:44Marc:I have.

00:57:45Marc:And when he talks about that tour, he was like, oh, my God.

00:57:49Marc:They're just getting booed off stage.

00:57:50Marc:it must have been unbelievable I can't imagine how and then he wanted to do more yeah you know and if he hadn't sadly had that motorcycle accident the band might not ever happen I know tell me about it man it's wow

00:58:06Guest:it's too much so what so the first three records you just dumped all at once they all came out in 64 your first three no no no no my my my first album i recorded in december of 62 okay it was released that all right summer yeah and then i went into the studio again that fall i made big city blues yeah um and then the next year i made uh an album called country blues which is

00:58:31Guest:um also acoustic solo yeah and then um that fall i mean it was i think november or so of uh 64 we we did this so many roads album and um then robbie and i yeah went up to the brill building the

00:58:52Guest:Tin Pan Alley into Lieber and Stoller's office.

00:58:56Guest:He did, yeah.

00:58:56Guest:And we talked them into giving us a session to do a demo single.

00:59:04Guest:Uh-huh.

00:59:05Guest:And they had a studio.

00:59:06Guest:The Rolling Stones were in town.

00:59:08Guest:Uh-huh.

00:59:09Guest:And they'd come to hear me play the year before.

00:59:11Guest:The Stones.

00:59:12Guest:Yeah.

00:59:12Guest:So Brian Jones and Bill Wyman came to the recording date.

00:59:16Guest:I got Bill to play bass on it.

00:59:19Guest:Yeah.

00:59:21Guest:Yeah.

00:59:21Guest:And Rick Danko.

00:59:22Guest:And they had a studio drummer named Charles Otis from New Orleans who had come up on Lieber and Stoller's request.

00:59:34Guest:And so we were going to make two sides, right?

00:59:40Guest:Yeah.

00:59:41Guest:And we had a three-hour session, and we cut like 18 songs.

00:59:45Guest:No kidding.

00:59:46Marc:Yeah.

00:59:46Guest:And that became I Can Tell.

00:59:48Guest:I Can Tell, right.

00:59:49Marc:Danko's on that record?

00:59:51Yeah.

00:59:51Guest:And Bill Wyman.

00:59:53Guest:I told Brian Jones, I'm sorry, I'm playing harmonica.

00:59:56Guest:Okay.

00:59:57Guest:And Robbie played as good as I ever heard anybody play guitar on that, man.

01:00:02Guest:He just killed me.

01:00:03Guest:Oh, man.

01:00:04Guest:I mean, Robbie, when he wanted to play blues, he played blues.

01:00:08Guest:He can, right?

01:00:09Guest:It always shocked me when he started playing, you know, more folk style stuff.

01:00:13Guest:But I guess that's, you know...

01:00:16Guest:Dylan's influence.

01:00:17Guest:Sure.

01:00:18Guest:Well, he cut his teeth in real roadhouse shit.

01:00:21Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:00:21Guest:I mean, they had to deliver.

01:00:23Guest:I spent a lot of time with those guys in Toronto.

01:00:26Guest:I mean, I've been to Robbie's home.

01:00:31Guest:I met his mother.

01:00:32Guest:I mean, it was a very tight-knit scene.

01:00:35Guest:That's sweet.

01:00:36Guest:And Toronto had so many great players.

01:00:39Guest:Oh, man, Toronto was a real scene.

01:00:41Guest:Really?

01:00:42Guest:Like who?

01:00:44Guest:David Clayton Thomas.

01:00:45Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:00:45Guest:They had a band called Powerhouse.

01:00:47Marc:Yeah.

01:00:48Guest:And they were phenomenal.

01:00:51Marc:It was just like a lot of people doing it up there.

01:00:52Marc:Yeah.

01:00:53Guest:Oh, man.

01:00:54Marc:Were you a fan like the British guys?

01:00:58No.

01:00:58Guest:Not really, not in the beginning.

01:01:00Guest:But when the Stones came to hear me playing, I got to know Brian Jones.

01:01:03Guest:Brian was a blues fanatic, just like me.

01:01:06Guest:He was into it.

01:01:08Guest:And if he had lived, I suppose they'd still be doing a whole lot more blues.

01:01:14Marc:Was that like 65, 66?

01:01:15Guest:64 and 5.

01:01:18Guest:That's when I knew them, yeah.

01:01:20Guest:And anyway- Because they were a real blues band.

01:01:22Guest:That's what they wanted.

01:01:23Guest:Yeah.

01:01:24Guest:I was on shows with Fleetwood Mac.

01:01:26Guest:Peter Green.

01:01:27Guest:Oh, man.

01:01:28Oh, man.

01:01:28Guest:I was on shows with them, and I heard them playing.

01:01:30Guest:I said, oh, this is a blues band.

01:01:33Guest:No kidding.

01:01:33Guest:And the next thing I know, they're doing rock and roll.

01:01:36Guest:Well, he kind of spun out somehow.

01:01:38Guest:Yeah, whatever.

01:01:38Guest:I don't know.

01:01:39Guest:Listen, I don't want to get into it.

01:01:41Guest:I didn't know everybody that well, so I didn't know.

01:01:45Guest:But he was a hell of a player, though, huh?

01:01:46Guest:Oh, yeah, man.

01:01:47Guest:And Jeremy Spencer.

01:01:48Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:01:50Guest:Man, these guys were into it big time.

01:01:52Guest:They were great.

01:01:52Guest:Blues fanatics.

01:01:54Guest:That's the thing, really, wasn't it?

01:01:56Guest:Eric Clapton.

01:01:57Guest:I did my first tour in England in 65.

01:02:00Guest:Yeah.

01:02:01Guest:I went over there not knowing much about the scene, and I met everybody.

01:02:07Guest:I went on tour with John Mayall.

01:02:09Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:02:09Guest:And I met Eric Clapton, who was playing guitar with him.

01:02:13Guest:And Eric was just...

01:02:15Guest:You know, phenomenal.

01:02:16Guest:I mean, his idol was Freddie King.

01:02:18Guest:Freddie King, yeah.

01:02:20Guest:And he had that down.

01:02:22Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:02:22Guest:But he was also, like, brilliant.

01:02:24Guest:You know, I mean, he had that upper vision, I guess.

01:02:28Guest:He really knew what he was all about.

01:02:30Guest:Yeah.

01:02:31Marc:And that was when he was playing with the Blues Breakers?

01:02:33Marc:Yeah, the Blues Breakers.

01:02:34Guest:And I met Stevie Winwood.

01:02:37Guest:I mean, these guys were really great players.

01:02:40Guest:I met Georgie Fame.

01:02:42Guest:There was a guy named Graham Bond, the Atomic Bond.

01:02:46Guest:Yeah.

01:02:47Guest:He played the organ and the saxophone at the same time.

01:02:50Guest:Sure, yeah.

01:02:50Guest:He was nuts, man.

01:02:51Guest:This guy was out there.

01:02:52Guest:Yeah.

01:02:53Guest:I was over in England and Bob came and played his first show in England and invited me to the Royal Albert Hall to hear him play.

01:03:01Guest:And it was, he killed it.

01:03:03Guest:With the band?

01:03:04Guest:Oh, no.

01:03:05Guest:Just by himself?

01:03:05Guest:By himself.

01:03:06Guest:Oh, before, yeah.

01:03:07Guest:Joan Baez was there.

01:03:09Guest:Oh, my.

01:03:09Guest:And I was hanging out in the back and everything was being filmed by the Penny Bakers and whatever it was.

01:03:17Yeah.

01:03:17Guest:Oh, that's that tour that Don't Look Back tour from the movie.

01:03:20Guest:Right.

01:03:21Guest:And then after the show, there was this big party and there were the Beatles.

01:03:27Guest:Come on.

01:03:28Guest:I know.

01:03:29Guest:John Lennon walks up to me and he says, Dr. Kildare.

01:03:33Guest:And I said, no.

01:03:35Guest:He says, I'd know.

01:03:37Guest:He said, how would you like to drive around Hyde Park in my Rolls Royce?

01:03:44Guest:I said, okay.

01:03:45Guest:And we drove around and it was really cool.

01:03:49Guest:Really cool.

01:03:50Guest:And John Lennon was something else, man.

01:03:54Guest:Sweet guy.

01:03:55Guest:Funny, right?

01:03:56Guest:And funny and brilliant.

01:03:58Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:03:59Guest:I felt intimidated, honestly.

01:04:02Guest:But you had a good time.

01:04:03Guest:Oh, man.

01:04:04Guest:So anyway, I went back to the US and all full of myself.

01:04:08Guest:I was 65.

01:04:11Guest:And 66, I was hanging out in the village playing at the Gaslight.

01:04:16Guest:Yeah.

01:04:18Guest:And I mean, it seems like so much happens in a short time when you're happening.

01:04:23Guest:I was playing at the Gaslight.

01:04:28Guest:A friend of mine, Ben Afflebaum, came down and said, man, there's a guy playing across the street at the Cafe Waugh.

01:04:36Guest:He's playing stuff off your record.

01:04:39Guest:I said, ooh.

01:04:40Guest:So I went over between sets and it was Jimi Hendrix.

01:04:44Guest:Yeah.

01:04:44Guest:He called himself Jimmy James at the time.

01:04:47Guest:Yeah.

01:04:47Guest:And he was hanging out.

01:04:49Guest:And when he got done playing, I was introduced to him.

01:04:51Guest:And he said, man, I'm starving.

01:04:54Guest:Can you get me a gig?

01:04:56Guest:Yeah.

01:04:57Guest:So I'd played a show at a place called the Cafe O'GoGo.

01:05:02Guest:Howard Solomon was the owner.

01:05:03Guest:Yeah.

01:05:04Guest:So I went over to Howard the next day and I said, you know, if I put a band together, he said, I got an opening next week.

01:05:12Guest:So I put this little band together with Jimmy James playing lead guitar.

01:05:17Guest:Come on.

01:05:17Guest:I think every musician that was in New York came to the show.

01:05:21Guest:We were there for a week.

01:05:23Guest:Because they knew about you guys?

01:05:26Marc:Yeah.

01:05:26Marc:I mean, man, Jimmy was unbelievable.

01:05:29Guest:He played with his teeth.

01:05:31Guest:He was just awesome.

01:05:33Marc:Was this like before the Isley Brothers or like hadn't he played with them a little bit?

01:05:37Marc:This is after the Isley Brothers.

01:05:39Guest:Okay.

01:05:39Guest:He'd been on the road with Curtis Knight.

01:05:41Guest:Right.

01:05:41Guest:And he was fired from the band.

01:05:45Guest:From being too good?

01:05:46Guest:In New York, yeah, probably, upstaging him.

01:05:49Guest:And so he was just hanging out in New York.

01:05:53Guest:He was kind of stranded.

01:05:54Guest:So you put a band together.

01:05:55Guest:I put the band together.

01:05:56Guest:Who's playing bass?

01:05:58Guest:Oh, God.

01:05:59Guest:So many guys sat in with us.

01:06:00Guest:Oh, really?

01:06:02Guest:Just an ongoing sort of parade?

01:06:04Guest:It was great, though.

01:06:06Guest:Were you playing electric?

01:06:07Guest:Yeah, I was playing electric.

01:06:09Guest:And at the end of the week, Chaz Chandler from The Animals came up to Jimmy and said, you know, I'd love to record you.

01:06:23Guest:Here's money for a plane ticket to England.

01:06:26Guest:I'll record you and I'll put you on the map.

01:06:29Guest:And he went to England.

01:06:31Marc:And that was it, man.

01:06:33Marc:Yeah.

01:06:33Marc:Oh, man.

01:06:35Marc:But when you guys were playing together at that time, could you just tell that he was beyond?

01:06:41Marc:Anybody that heard him play would just say, who is that?

01:06:44Guest:Yeah, what is going on?

01:06:45Guest:No, he was unbelievable.

01:06:47Guest:He was truly amazing.

01:06:49Guest:And anybody that heard him would flip out.

01:06:52Marc:And did you ever see or work with Jimmy Reed?

01:06:56Marc:Jimmy Reed, yeah.

01:06:57Guest:Yeah, because he lived a while, right?

01:06:58Guest:Oh, he was incredible.

01:06:59Marc:Yeah.

01:07:00Guest:He was the guy.

01:07:01Guest:Everybody loved him.

01:07:03Guest:Jazz guys, bluegrass guys, country guys.

01:07:06Guest:Everybody loved Jimmy Reed.

01:07:07Guest:Yeah.

01:07:08Guest:So I opened for him in Oakland.

01:07:12Guest:A guy named Chris Schrakwitz put together this concert, and I opened for Jimmy Reed.

01:07:17Guest:It was just awesome.

01:07:19Guest:And you were a fan, right?

01:07:20Guest:Oh, I was just like...

01:07:22Guest:I idolized him.

01:07:23Guest:Anyways, I got back to New York eventually, and I told my friends, you know, I was on the show with Jimmy Lee.

01:07:29Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:07:30Guest:And they said, right, uh-huh.

01:07:33Guest:Yeah, I bet.

01:07:33Guest:Yeah, after a while, I got, you know, I got tired of being told I was wrong.

01:07:40Guest:Yeah.

01:07:41Guest:And so I like to tell this story about 12 years ago, Martin Scorsese put on The Year of the Blues Spectacular.

01:07:50Guest:Uh-huh.

01:07:51Guest:Radio City Music Hall, 50 artists, count them.

01:07:55Guest:And there were two days of rehearsals.

01:07:56Guest:Yeah.

01:07:57Guest:My wife Marla and I are backstage and John Fogerty walks up to me.

01:08:01Guest:He says, man, I saw you open for Jimmy Reed.

01:08:05Guest:Whoa.

01:08:06Guest:It was like, yeah.

01:08:08Guest:No, it was really cool.

01:08:10Guest:Because he's from up there.

01:08:12Guest:Yeah, man.

01:08:12Guest:He's probably a kid who went to go see it.

01:08:15Yeah.

01:08:15Marc:i mean it was you know i mean i've had a lot of moments like that where you know it all sort of comes together right right so when did you start doing the uh you know because like i noticed on like you go back and forth but like source point that's 1970 already right and oh you did on the on the other records too but you put together a full electric band in 1967 after i had had the experience playing with jimmy yeah uh

01:08:42Guest:I approached Charles Otis, who had recorded on the I Can Tell record, and I said, would you be interested in going on the road with me if I put a band together?

01:08:53Guest:He's a drummer?

01:08:54Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:08:55Guest:He started his career in 1950 with Professor Longhair.

01:09:00Guest:Oh, down in New Orleans.

01:09:01Guest:Oh, he's a New Orleans guy.

01:09:02Guest:Yeah, so he got that swing.

01:09:05Guest:So Charles thought about it for a minute, and then he said...

01:09:08Guest:You know, I don't think I'd do it for anybody else, but for you, I'll do it.

01:09:12Guest:So we put together this power trio, right?

01:09:16Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:09:17Guest:And John Hammond and the Screaming Nighthawks.

01:09:20Guest:Is that what it was?

01:09:21Guest:Yeah.

01:09:21Guest:And we went to, well, came out to the West Coast in 67.

01:09:28Guest:Played at the Avalon Ballroom with the Grateful Dead and all these other bands.

01:09:34Guest:Bill Graham Presents?

01:09:35Guest:No, this was Chet Helms.

01:09:39Guest:Before Bill Graham?

01:09:41Guest:Maybe Bill was out here, but this was the offer that I had.

01:09:45Guest:I eventually played a lot of gigs for Bill.

01:09:48Guest:What a guy.

01:09:50Guest:He was the first guy that ever gave me a bonus.

01:09:53Guest:Oh, really?

01:09:53Guest:$250.

01:09:55Guest:I was in heaven.

01:09:56Guest:You played the Fillmore a lot?

01:09:57Guest:Yeah, I played the Fillmore East and West.

01:10:01Guest:But that was later in the 60s?

01:10:03Marc:Later in the 60s, yeah.

01:10:04Marc:All right, so tell me about this trio.

01:10:06Guest:Oh, so Charles Otis and Herman Pittman played the bass on some of the dates.

01:10:12Guest:Other times we used Lee Collins.

01:10:15Guest:Other times, Sherman Holmes.

01:10:23Guest:Charles knew everybody.

01:10:24Guest:I mean, everywhere we went.

01:10:25Guest:If we came to L.A., we had a horn section.

01:10:29Guest:If we went to, you know, I mean, he knew everybody everywhere.

01:10:31Guest:It was outrageous.

01:10:32Marc:And it's nice to go that loose with that music.

01:10:35Marc:Oh, man.

01:10:36Marc:Sure.

01:10:36Marc:Anyway, it's like jump in kind of music, right?

01:10:39Guest:It wasn't, but it was like my call.

01:10:42Guest:And Charles had enough respect for me to say, OK, listen to what he says.

01:10:47Guest:And it was, I mean, Charles was a real mentor to me in so many ways.

01:10:52Guest:He was so professional.

01:10:54Guest:And he had toured with Lloyd Price and Little Richard.

01:10:57Guest:He had toured with all these great New Orleans bands.

01:11:00Guest:And had done the whole Chitlin circuit.

01:11:03Guest:And I mean, he was amazing.

01:11:06Guest:And that's what led to Source Point?

01:11:07Guest:Yeah.

01:11:07Guest:That's what led to Source Point.

01:11:09Guest:And it was supposed to be produced by Lieber and Stoller.

01:11:11Guest:Yeah.

01:11:12Guest:One afternoon at Columbia, and they said, John, we're out of here.

01:11:15Guest:I can't work with these people.

01:11:17Guest:With who?

01:11:18Guest:With Columbia Records.

01:11:19Guest:Oh, okay.

01:11:20Guest:So all of a sudden, it was in my lap.

01:11:23Guest:And I had Charles on drums and Billy Nichols on the bass.

01:11:29Guest:And that was it.

01:11:30Guest:That was the...

01:11:32Guest:You produced it.

01:11:33Marc:Yeah.

01:11:34Guest:I had to.

01:11:35Guest:I mean, we had already booked the dates.

01:11:37Guest:It's probably the best thing, man.

01:11:38Guest:It was great, man.

01:11:39Guest:We had so much fun.

01:11:40Guest:It was so much fun.

01:11:41Marc:I can't imagine that record if Lieber and Stoller produced it.

01:11:43Guest:Oh, it would have been great.

01:11:44Guest:They had a keyboard player named SQ Reader who was going to be on the show.

01:11:51Guest:SQ Reader.

01:11:52Guest:Yeah.

01:11:52Guest:And he was a protege of Little Richard.

01:11:54Guest:Uh-huh.

01:11:55Guest:And he was out there.

01:11:58Guest:He didn't play?

01:11:58Guest:No, he didn't play because Mike and Jerry said no.

01:12:01Guest:Anyway... Good record, though.

01:12:04Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:12:05Guest:Columbia did nothing with it, nothing for it.

01:12:08Guest:I think they didn't know what to do.

01:12:09Marc:Wasn't that your dad's label?

01:12:11Guest:Yeah, but... He wasn't around?

01:12:13Guest:It was awkward, you know, very awkward.

01:12:16Guest:I got the thing because I got signed to Columbia because Arthur Penn had asked me to do the music for Little Big Man.

01:12:26Guest:Great job on that, by the way.

01:12:27Guest:And that's what, in order to do it, I had to sign with Columbia.

01:12:32Guest:Wow.

01:12:32Guest:So I signed with Columbia and flew out here to do the, I mean, I played live to the track.

01:12:42Guest:That was just you and a guitar, though.

01:12:44Marc:Was that a national you used on that?

01:12:46Guest:I used a national on some tunes and the others on my Gibson's.

01:12:51Guest:Yeah.

01:12:52Marc:I remember seeing that.

01:12:53Marc:It's haunting, man.

01:12:54Marc:That's like way before Bry Cooter did.

01:12:57Marc:What a movie.

01:12:57Marc:Oh, yeah, man.

01:12:58Guest:I was so impressed.

01:12:59Marc:It's a great movie.

01:13:00Guest:I said to Arthur Penn, I said, you know, the music I'm playing didn't exist then.

01:13:04Guest:He said, it doesn't matter.

01:13:05Guest:It'll work.

01:13:06Guest:Yeah.

01:13:07Guest:Arthur Penn was incredible.

01:13:09Guest:It didn't exist then.

01:13:10Guest:He said, it'll work.

01:13:12Guest:Yeah.

01:13:12Guest:Anyway, I mean, because he had done Bonnie and Clyde with Flatt and Scruggs, and that worked.

01:13:20Marc:Yeah, yeah, that's right.

01:13:21Marc:I remember that opening scene with Hoffman and the old man, turn that thing on, turn that thing on.

01:13:27Guest:Oh, man.

01:13:28Guest:Oh, so that's how you got into Columbia.

01:13:30Guest:Through the side, kind of.

01:13:31Guest:Yeah.

01:13:32Guest:So we made Source Point.

01:13:34Guest:And they just sat on it.

01:13:35Marc:And you had one of those.

01:13:36Marc:You had one of those Gold Top Deluxe.

01:13:38Guest:Yes, I did.

01:13:38Marc:It sounds so fucking good on that record, man.

01:13:40Guest:Oh, man, I had so much fun making that record.

01:13:42Guest:Anyway, the band was together.

01:13:45Guest:We were touring.

01:13:47Guest:And then we weren't getting any promotion.

01:13:51Guest:I was not making bucks, whatever.

01:13:55Guest:We'd go out on the road for a month and come back.

01:13:57Guest:I mean, I'd be broke.

01:13:59Guest:Yeah.

01:14:00Guest:Because I wanted everybody to get paid.

01:14:01Guest:With that band.

01:14:02Marc:Yeah.

01:14:02Guest:The Source Point Band.

01:14:03Guest:So I did some tours solo.

01:14:05Guest:I went back to playing solo, and I was on tour with Delaney and Bonnie.

01:14:10Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:14:11Guest:And Delaney kept saying, man, I'd love to produce a record on you.

01:14:16Guest:Yeah.

01:14:17Guest:So I went up to Columbia, and Clive Davis had just become the...

01:14:25Guest:The guy?

01:14:26Guest:The guy at Columbia.

01:14:28Guest:And I said to him, Delaney and Bonnie want to produce an album on me.

01:14:34Guest:And Clive looked at me and said, who?

01:14:36Guest:And they had the number one and number two singles on the Billboard charts.

01:14:42Guest:I said, Delaney and Bonnie?

01:14:44Guest:And I showed him that.

01:14:45Guest:He says, oh, oh.

01:14:47Guest:Yeah.

01:14:48Guest:So anyway, I came back out here and we made I'm Satisfied.

01:14:53Guest:Yeah.

01:14:53Guest:That was number two for Columbia.

01:14:56Guest:And Delaney said to me, man, if this ain't a hit record, I'm going to kiss your ass on Broadway.

01:15:02Guest:That's what he said to me.

01:15:04Guest:And Clive Davis was so impressed with Delaney and Bonnie that he signed them, bought everything they ever did for Atlantic.

01:15:13Guest:Yeah.

01:15:13Guest:Gave him a bonus check for a quarter of a million dollars.

01:15:16Guest:I know this because Delaney showed me the check.

01:15:19Guest:Yeah.

01:15:20Guest:And they did nothing for me.

01:15:21Guest:And they went in the studio with Delaney and Bonnie.

01:15:26Guest:And a month later, they got divorced and nothing ever happened.

01:15:29Guest:Oh, my God.

01:15:30Guest:They keep the money?

01:15:31Guest:What's that?

01:15:32Guest:I'm sure they kept my money.

01:15:34Yeah.

01:15:34Guest:But anyway, that was the end of that.

01:15:36Guest:And then the third record I made for Columbia was with Michael Bloomfield and Dr. John.

01:15:40Guest:Oh, yeah, I have that record.

01:15:42Guest:Triumvirate.

01:15:43Guest:How do you feel about that record?

01:15:45Guest:I thought it was really good.

01:15:47Guest:There were some cuts on it I thought could have been, you know, hit records or whatever.

01:15:51Guest:But never got promoted because every record label, Columbia, Atlantic, everybody got investigated by the FBI.

01:16:00Guest:For Paola?

01:16:01Guest:Yeah.

01:16:01Guest:Bad time.

01:16:02Guest:So, there was no promotion, no nothing.

01:16:05Guest:We had just taped- It's heartbreaking.

01:16:08Guest:Yeah, it was kind of a bummer for me.

01:16:10Guest:And so, I went from Columbia, I went to Capricorn.

01:16:17Guest:Yeah.

01:16:17Guest:Because I had gotten to know Dwayne Allman really well.

01:16:23Guest:He had recorded an album of mine, my last one for Atlantic.

01:16:27Guest:Which one?

01:16:28Guest:It was called Southern Fried.

01:16:30Guest:Oh, and he's on that?

01:16:30Guest:Yeah, man, is he ever.

01:16:32Guest:I got to get that record.

01:16:34Guest:And we got to be really good friends, and Dwayne was phenomenal.

01:16:39Guest:He's another guy that sort of had the gift, right?

01:16:41Guest:Kind of touched.

01:16:42Guest:Awesome, awesome.

01:16:43Guest:I've worked with some great guitar players, no kidding.

01:16:46Guest:Yeah.

01:16:46Guest:Anyway, so Dwayne had died.

01:16:51Guest:I had gone to Capricorn because he said, oh, you know, we got a really good deal down there.

01:17:01Guest:So I went down to Macon and I made an album called Can't Beat the Kid on Capricorn.

01:17:07Guest:And then he died?

01:17:09Guest:No, no.

01:17:09Guest:Dwayne had died before.

01:17:11Marc:Already?

01:17:11Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:17:12Guest:But I had done gigs with the Almond Brothers and I had signed up with the

01:17:15Guest:Paragon Agency in Macon.

01:17:17Guest:Yeah.

01:17:18Guest:And that was not good for me.

01:17:21Guest:Yeah.

01:17:22Guest:I opened for Wet Willie and Charlie Daniels and Marshall Tucker and all these boogie bands, you know.

01:17:28Guest:It didn't work.

01:17:29Guest:I got booed off the stage.

01:17:30Guest:Oh, really?

01:17:32Guest:Man, we want the Almond Brothers.

01:17:34Guest:Yeah.

01:17:35Guest:So it was one of those.

01:17:37Guest:Brutal.

01:17:38Guest:It was tough.

01:17:40Guest:And I was on a gig in Vancouver, B.C.

01:17:46Guest:with John Hyatt.

01:17:50Uh-huh.

01:17:50Guest:And John Hyatt's agent was this guy, Mike Kappas.

01:17:55Guest:Yeah.

01:17:56Guest:And he had just formed an agency called Rosebud.

01:17:59Guest:Right.

01:18:00Guest:And so I went to get paid after my show, and there was a double contract, and I got screwed out of a lot of money.

01:18:08Guest:And Mike was there.

01:18:09Guest:He watched the whole deal go down.

01:18:11Guest:That was my last show for Paragon Agency.

01:18:15Guest:And Mike said to me, listen, if you ever want to work with someone who actually likes what you do, I'm the guy.

01:18:23Guest:A week later, I called him up and I said, listen, I'm ready.

01:18:29Guest:So I was with Mike for 36 years.

01:18:32Guest:He booked more than 4,000 shows for me.

01:18:35Guest:That's great.

01:18:36Guest:And all over the world.

01:18:37Guest:Yeah.

01:18:38Guest:I mean, the Rosebud Agency was just incredible.

01:18:40Guest:And they're no longer?

01:18:41Guest:No, he closed the agency about three years ago, four years ago.

01:18:47Guest:And he had done so much.

01:18:51Guest:I mean, he did Muddy Waters and Willie Dixon and...

01:18:56Guest:Luther Owls and all these incredible blues and roots players Los Lobos John Hyatt Robert Cray I mean Mike Kappas was the guy he was really wonderful and

01:19:09Guest:So anyway.

01:19:11Guest:He retired.

01:19:12Guest:Yeah, basically.

01:19:13Guest:Although he's still very active and he does, you know, he's got his hands in a lot of pies.

01:19:20Guest:What was your relationship with Muddy?

01:19:22Guest:Did you have one?

01:19:22Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:19:23Guest:I worked a lot of gigs with Muddy.

01:19:25Guest:In fact, I got Muddy to sign with the Rosebud Agency.

01:19:29Guest:Oh, you did?

01:19:30Guest:No, I mean, there was another just king of kings.

01:19:34Guest:He and Wolf were like unbelievable.

01:19:36Guest:Yeah.

01:19:36Guest:So different, too, kind of, right?

01:19:38Guest:Yeah, totally different.

01:19:38Guest:And they weren't the best of friends.

01:19:40Guest:Well, they were fighting each other.

01:19:42Guest:Yeah, well, they were, you know.

01:19:43Guest:Competitive.

01:19:44Guest:Back in the day, you know, the chess years.

01:19:48Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:19:48Guest:It was, you know, everybody wanted to be the guy.

01:19:52Guest:Yeah.

01:19:53Guest:My wife, Marla.

01:19:54Guest:I had met Marla in 1989, and we got together in 1990.

01:19:58Guest:Yeah.

01:19:59Guest:And she saw me through all of these years of sort of being rediscovered, put on the map again.

01:20:07Guest:And she basically took care of a lot of the production stuff.

01:20:16Guest:She kept track of all the things that I did well or wasn't so pretty.

01:20:22Guest:Why don't you do that one again, John?

01:20:23Guest:Yeah.

01:20:24Guest:Oh, no kidding.

01:20:24Guest:Oh, she's got ears.

01:20:26Marc:Big time.

01:20:27Marc:And when these periods, though, because, like, I mean, you've done, you've put out, like, what, 30 or 35 records?

01:20:32Marc:35 albums.

01:20:33Marc:35 albums.

01:20:34Marc:You, like, see them do one every year or so.

01:20:37Marc:You tour your ass off.

01:20:39Marc:I have to assume that, you know, over the years, you've got a good following.

01:20:44Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:20:45Guest:I mean, it's going as well as it ever did for me.

01:20:49Guest:Maybe better, but I'm not playing as many gigs.

01:20:51Guest:Sure.

01:20:52Guest:I'll be 75.

01:20:53Guest:Yikes.

01:20:54Guest:And you put it all in.

01:20:56Guest:Yeah, you know, I mean, I'm still having fun.

01:20:59Guest:I mean, this is still good, but it's...

01:21:01Guest:You know, it's something that I got to pace myself.

01:21:04Guest:Otherwise, I'm just going to melt or something.

01:21:08Guest:But in the downtime, you didn't seem to get bitter, did you?

01:21:12Guest:You know, life is weird.

01:21:15Guest:And I knew that from the beginning.

01:21:17Guest:You know, when I told my father this is what I was going to do, he said, this is a big mistake.

01:21:24Guest:And, you know, I mean, the business is the business.

01:21:27Guest:You know, it's really rough.

01:21:28Guest:Yeah.

01:21:28Marc:But I got to imagine like, you know, having that father and then like knowing Bob Dylan, then knowing your dad signed Bob Dylan.

01:21:35Marc:There's got to be a moment where you're like, oh, man.

01:21:37Guest:Well, listen, I'm not my father.

01:21:40Guest:Yeah, sure.

01:21:41Guest:But at the same time, you just got to stand back and say, oh.

01:21:46Guest:Holy cow, what a guy.

01:21:48Guest:Yeah.

01:21:48Guest:I mean, he discovered Count Basie and Billy Holiday, Lester Young, Charlie Christian.

01:21:53Guest:He put the band together for Benny Goodman who married his sister.

01:21:57Guest:No kidding.

01:21:58Guest:He was Uncle Benny.

01:22:01Guest:And then to go on from there, I mean, he discovered Aretha Franklin and George Benson.

01:22:09Guest:God, he kept going.

01:22:10Guest:Oh, man.

01:22:11Guest:And then Leonard Cohen and did the last, I mean, put Pete Seeger back on the map.

01:22:19Guest:Right.

01:22:19Guest:And then, you know, Dylan and...

01:22:23Guest:Billie Holiday, right?

01:22:24Guest:Yeah, Billie Holiday.

01:22:25Marc:And Springsteen like it.

01:22:26Guest:Springsteen, hello.

01:22:27Guest:It's crazy.

01:22:28Guest:And, oh.

01:22:30Guest:Yeah.

01:22:31Guest:But the business is so rough and weird.

01:22:34Guest:I mean, my dad had a terrible stroke, you know, and he was like really hurting.

01:22:39Guest:My father never took a royalty from any of the artists he produced, ever.

01:22:43Guest:Oh, no kidding.

01:22:44Guest:And he took a salary from Columbia, and that was it.

01:22:47Guest:He never.

01:22:49Guest:Really?

01:22:49Guest:That was, I mean, it wasn't even much.

01:22:52Guest:And so here he is sick on his, you know, in bed and Columbia wouldn't pay for his hospital expenses.

01:23:00Guest:And it took Bruce Springsteen to come and say, if you don't take care of John Hammond's...

01:23:07Guest:Medical, I'm out of here.

01:23:09Guest:Wow.

01:23:09Guest:And they did.

01:23:10Guest:And they finally did.

01:23:11Guest:But it took that.

01:23:12Guest:No kidding.

01:23:13Guest:That's the business.

01:23:14Guest:It's rough.

01:23:16Guest:And he tried to warn you.

01:23:18Guest:He did.

01:23:18Guest:He said, this is a big mistake.

01:23:20Marc:But this was in me to do it.

01:23:22Marc:Did you have any sense if he listened to your records or liked the records?

01:23:26Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:23:26Marc:Oh, he did?

01:23:27Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:23:27Yeah.

01:23:28Guest:No, he became an advocate for me, I guess.

01:23:30Guest:But in the background, I never asked him for anything.

01:23:34Guest:Yeah, but he got it.

01:23:35Guest:He got it.

01:23:36Guest:He knew you were the real deal.

01:23:38Guest:Well, I don't know if he knew if I was the real deal, but he didn't want me to starve to death.

01:23:44Guest:No, he was an amazing human being.

01:23:47Marc:And what's your relationship with Waits?

01:23:49Marc:Because that's a beautiful record you did, the Waits songs.

01:23:52Marc:Tom produced that album, I mean, with my wife Marla.

01:23:56Marc:Whose idea was that?

01:23:57Guest:It was Marla's idea.

01:23:58Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:24:00Guest:Tom had asked me to do some stuff on his Mule Variations album.

01:24:05Marc:You played harp, right?

01:24:06Guest:Yeah, I did.

01:24:07Guest:And so we're hanging out in Northern California, and my wife Marla and Tom's wife Kathleen were hanging out.

01:24:15Guest:And this was, the studio was very near where Tom lives, the Prairie Suns studio.

01:24:23Guest:And Marla said, listen, what do you think the idea of Tom producing an album on John?

01:24:28Guest:He could be home every night, take care of the kids, you know.

01:24:32Guest:Yeah.

01:24:33Guest:And Kathleen said, you know, that would be a great idea.

01:24:35Guest:So all of a sudden, it was in our laps to do something, and out came Wicked Grin, and it was the best-selling record of any that I've ever done.

01:24:47Guest:Oh, yeah?

01:24:47Guest:Yeah.

01:24:48Guest:It's still selling.

01:24:49Guest:That's great.

01:24:51Guest:I was in L.A.

01:24:53Guest:about three years ago.

01:24:54Guest:I was up for a Grammy.

01:24:56Yeah.

01:24:56Guest:For which record?

01:24:57Guest:Oh, for Rough and Tough?

01:24:58Guest:Rough and Tough.

01:24:59Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:25:00Guest:And it didn't win and whatever.

01:25:02Guest:But Bug Music was having a party, and I went over there with my wife, Marla.

01:25:07Guest:And we're hanging out, and there's T-Bone Burnett and all these guys who I'd met over the years.

01:25:15Guest:And there's Jeff Bridges.

01:25:18Guest:And Jeff Bridges walks right up to me and says, man, Wicked Grin is one of my favorite records of all time.

01:25:24Guest:And Marla looks up at him and says, you'll always be Starman to me.

01:25:34Guest:She nailed it.

01:25:35Guest:That's hilarious.

01:25:37Guest:He's a player.

01:25:38Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:25:39Marc:That movie was phenomenal.

01:25:41Marc:What was it called again?

01:25:44Marc:Crazy Heart?

01:25:45Marc:Crazy Heart.

01:25:46Marc:Yeah, that was something, huh?

01:25:48Marc:You could see that guy.

01:25:49Marc:You know that guy.

01:25:50Marc:Do you feel like you get the respect, though?

01:25:52Marc:It seems like the blues community loves you, and that you get the respect.

01:25:56Marc:You get the Hall of Fame.

01:25:57Marc:I'm in the Blues Hall of Fame.

01:25:58Guest:Who knew?

01:25:59Marc:And you've certainly gotten nominated for Grammys a lot.

01:26:02Marc:I'm sorry you didn't win one.

01:26:04Marc:I did win one.

01:26:05Marc:For a collection?

01:26:06Guest:Yeah, back in 83.

01:26:08Guest:Yeah.

01:26:09Guest:As the guy handed it to me, he says, if the horn falls off, it can be replaced for...

01:26:14Guest:$75.

01:26:15Guest:That's what he said.

01:26:17Marc:That's what he said.

01:26:18Guest:As he's handing it to you.

01:26:20Marc:And you did the search for Robert Johnson.

01:26:23Marc:Right.

01:26:23Marc:Yeah.

01:26:24Marc:That was intense.

01:26:26Guest:Yeah.

01:26:27Guest:Mississippi, Alabama.

01:26:29Guest:He went down there.

01:26:29Guest:Tennessee.

01:26:30Guest:Yeah.

01:26:31Guest:Texas.

01:26:32Guest:Yeah.

01:26:32Guest:This was an English film crew that had really done their homework.

01:26:36Marc:And were you the host or the guide?

01:26:40Guest:I was the host guide on camera, no script.

01:26:44Guest:Chris Hunt was the producer for Channel 4 in England.

01:26:50Guest:And Kaz Gorham was the director.

01:26:54Guest:And we went to all these places where they had been a year before and scouted out locations and people.

01:27:03Guest:Mm-hmm.

01:27:05Guest:And there I was on camera with these guys, and I didn't know what to say half the time, but it came off.

01:27:13Guest:You just engaged with it?

01:27:15Guest:Yeah, I got right into it.

01:27:17Guest:Because I realized it wasn't going to be about selling his soul to the devil or something stupid.

01:27:22Guest:It was really who he was and where he traveled.

01:27:25Guest:Did you know all that stuff?

01:27:27Guest:I knew bits and pieces, but I found out way more than I ever thought I'd known.

01:27:32Guest:Did it move you?

01:27:33Guest:Yeah, big time.

01:27:35Guest:there were guys that that had gone to school with robert uh old girlfriends of his no kidding i mean feeling connected like that was like really intense um did you ever hear those um those those ones that they slowed down did you like the songs like somebody said that they were like i so i went down somebody told me that i don't

01:28:01Guest:believe it yeah but whatever yeah yeah yeah no yeah it's you know everybody who's gonna fool around with stuff that can never be really corroborated so sure it's just like it is what it is man yeah yeah yeah yeah those ones those were the the the songs the the recordings that moved me yeah big time it's it's interesting to me because like i listen to even all the records that you do all up to the present up to like 2014 is that

01:28:28Marc:There's honesty to your blues that, you know, I don't hear anywhere else.

01:28:33Marc:And you're like one of the few guys doing it.

01:28:35Marc:Do you feel like it's a responsibility?

01:28:37Marc:You just love doing it.

01:28:38Marc:I just love doing it.

01:28:39Guest:I feel so lucky, you know, to be still happening and rocking.

01:28:44Guest:And my wife, Marla, is like somebody that really helps make it happen.

01:28:49Guest:I'm a real Luddite when I...

01:28:51Guest:It comes to computers and smartphones and stuff.

01:28:55Guest:I'm a dummy.

01:28:56Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:28:56Guest:And she's right on top of it and takes care of stuff that, you know, I... Oh, good.

01:29:01Guest:Yeah, I'm a lucky guy.

01:29:03Guest:Where are you living now?

01:29:04Guest:I live in Jersey City.

01:29:05Guest:Okay.

01:29:06Guest:We've been there for 22 years.

01:29:08Guest:And what happened to your gold top?

01:29:10Guest:I gave it to a guy named Jimmy Thackeray who played with a band called the Nighthawks.

01:29:20Guest:And haven't seen it since.

01:29:23Guest:I was told, man, that thing is worth $100,000.

01:29:25Guest:A 1959 gold Les Paul album.

01:29:31Marc:That's a reissue, a new reissue from Gibson.

01:29:33Guest:Yeah, those are beautiful.

01:29:34Marc:Yeah.

01:29:34Marc:What's that other weird Gibson that you had on the cover?

01:29:39Marc:You're like in the grass.

01:29:41Guest:Oh, right.

01:29:41Guest:With that corner.

01:29:43Guest:It was a guitar that belonged to Felix Cavalier at Atlantic.

01:29:49Guest:We had one afternoon to do this photo shoot, and I didn't have my guitar with me.

01:29:55Guest:Yeah.

01:29:55Guest:Don't want to use this one.

01:29:56Guest:It's a wild looking guitar.

01:29:57Guest:What was that thing?

01:29:58Guest:It's a Barney Kessel model.

01:30:00Guest:Oh, okay.

01:30:00Guest:Yeah.

01:30:02Marc:Well, look, man, it was great talking to you.

01:30:04Marc:Oh, Mark, what a pleasure.

01:30:10Marc:All right, folks, I hope that was interesting.

01:30:13Marc:Go listen to some John Hammond.

01:30:14Marc:It'll blow you away.

01:30:15Marc:And don't forget, if you want a signed copy of Waiting for the Punch, go to podswag.com slash punch.

01:30:22Marc:That's P-O-D-S-W-A-G dot com slash punch.

01:30:26Marc:And if you're in Seattle, come on out to Third Place Books in Seward Park on Saturday, November 11th at 7 p.m.

01:30:33Marc:for our final book event of the year.

01:30:35Marc:I can't play any guitar right now because it's too early in the morning.

01:30:41Marc:Boomer lives!