Episode 86 - Bring the Rock
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also... Eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:Okay, let's do this.
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck in ears?
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:Nick's?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:Mark Maron in San Francisco in a hotel room waiting to go to a sound check for the bring the rock show that Greg Barrett asked me to do.
Marc:I have been avoiding playing guitar and singing in front of people for almost my entire life.
Marc:Almost my entire life, nothing has frightened me more because of an experience I had.
Marc:I think when I was like 15 years old at a music and arts camp, but I put a group of guys together, got on stage and it was horrible, just horrible.
Marc:And there was nothing I could do about it.
Marc:And there's just something so vulnerable about singing.
Marc:And now, of course, like the day of the first show, uh,
Marc:The format of the show is you tell a story and then the band's supposed to play a song from the band you mentioned in the story or the song you mentioned in the story.
Marc:But, you know, I play, so I said, let me play.
Marc:And Greg's like, okay.
Marc:But I did this once before and I bailed.
Marc:And I don't know if I'm going to bail tonight, but I'm freaking out, man.
Marc:I couldn't sleep.
Marc:I feel all fucked up.
Marc:My throat, like, of course, this happens to me sometimes where, like, I know I have to do something tonight.
Marc:Like, this happens to me before I do television sometimes where...
Marc:My throat feels a little tight, maybe a little scratchy.
Marc:Y'all know if it's going to happen.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's just amazing how fear mangles my body when I have to do something that I'm deeply afraid of.
Marc:But I think I'm going to do it.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I think I'm ready.
Marc:I mean, I think this band is great.
Marc:We rehearsed it the other day and it went beautifully.
Marc:And I think it should be fine.
Marc:And I'm not feeling that freaked out about it.
Marc:But I know once I get up there, God damn it.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:The band is Dave Gibbs, Grant Lee Buffalo, Mark Rivers, who I've known for years.
Marc:A great band, laid back.
Marc:They're professionals.
Marc:Man, when we did a rehearsal, I couldn't believe it.
Marc:If you're an amateur guitar player and you play with other amateurs, just sort of weekend warrior shit, where you're just sort of like, oh, it's just jam.
Marc:Within seven minutes, it's so loud.
Marc:No one can hear anything.
Marc:You can't hear your voice.
Marc:You can't hear your guitar.
Marc:You can't hear anything.
Marc:But everyone thinks it's going great.
Marc:It's horrendous.
Marc:And then I sweat.
Marc:I sweat almost immediately when I pick up a guitar.
Marc:I'm freaking out a little bit.
Marc:But what happened was we did these songs, and they were perfect.
Marc:I mean, not perfect, but it felt great.
Marc:They laid back.
Marc:They followed me, did some background vocals with me, and I felt great in the rehearsal studio.
Marc:Man, we should have cut a record.
Marc:I mean, this could be it.
Marc:What if this goes so well that I just choose to do this?
Marc:I don't feel good, you guys.
Marc:I don't feel great.
Marc:Does my throat sound all right?
Marc:I have a headache, too.
Marc:I have a little headache, and I'm a little tired.
Marc:I didn't sleep that well.
Marc:Did I bring that up already?
Marc:But if this goes well, maybe an album, Marc Maron, just like Marc Maron, the music, something like that, or Marc Maron, the songs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Something like that.
Marc:Or Marc Maron sings.
Guest:Hey.
Marc:Maybe that.
Marc:Or Marc Maron.
Marc:Feel it, fuckers.
Marc:I'm fucking nervous.
Marc:All right, I'll keep you in the loop here.
Marc:Just hang out.
Marc:Just hang out.
Marc:All right?
Marc:Have some justcoffee.coopcoffee and hang out.
Marc:All right, I got to practice.
Marc:Okay, so rehearsal went pretty good.
Marc:I feel pretty confident, but I'm like, that's happened before.
Marc:I've felt confident before, and I've gone up and just fucked it.
Marc:This seems really fragile to me, but I'm kind of excited, but I'm kind of sick.
Marc:I feel kind of fluey, and I don't think it's just about the nerves.
Marc:This is fucking crazy.
Marc:I'd much rather not.
Marc:do this but i have to you know i have to get it out of my system you know enough already you know i don't want to die without having you know sung publicly and it's just fucking ridiculous oh fuck man what if my guitar buzzes if i forget the chord i think i don't feel well
Guest:my guest in my hotel room uh in the cat garage away from home is uh grant grantley phillips that's what you go by yeah yeah yeah grantley buffalo was a different name for that was the band yeah that was just the band that was the band and and uh well you know what i mean it all it started with me not being sure what i what i was and what i wanted to do and and so i thought well maybe maybe i need like a david bowie uh ziggy stardust alter ego right and so grantley buffalo was sort of that and
Guest:creation and then that became the band name, you know.
Marc:So now, okay, well, let's talk about that because you're the same age.
Marc:You're really my age.
Marc:You're legitimately my age.
Marc:I mean, our birthdays are about three weeks apart, I think.
Marc:Is that right?
Marc:Wow.
Marc:When's your birthday?
Marc:Let's find out.
Marc:Caller number three, what's my birthday?
Marc:When is Brentley Phillips' birthday?
Marc:Hey, you're wrong.
Marc:It's September 1st.
Marc:I'm in the middle of an interview with Greg Fitzsimmons, and I'd love to talk to you, but I got no time right now.
Marc:What are you doing?
Marc:Let me call you up.
Marc:I got a couple of interviews lined up because I'm a professional and I understand you are, too, but I'm busy.
Marc:I'll call you in a little while.
Marc:Bye.
Marc:That was Greg Fitzsimmons.
Marc:He's also a podcaster.
Marc:He's in the hotel.
Marc:It's a podcasting hub this weekend.
Marc:I didn't realize that.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:A lot of podcasters, they all come to the club quarters to do.
Ah.
Marc:Ah, right.
Marc:So no, so you're September 1st, right?
Marc:I am, yeah.
Marc:I'm September 27th, 1963.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Wow, that's crazy.
Marc:So did you make the, oh, so you're a definite Libra.
Marc:I'm a Virgo.
Marc:Oh, so, okay, see, I made the Libra cut.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, that would be Libra.
Marc:So I'm a little, yeah, I'm a little unbalanced.
Marc:How about that?
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:Isn't it?
Marc:So when, like, because now that you bring up the Bowie period, the Grant Lee Phillips Bowie period.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What did you start as?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I was a kid watching a Bing Crosby Christmas special.
Guest:So you started as a crooner.
Guest:Well, I didn't start as a crooner.
Guest:But I was watching one of those specials, right?
Guest:Bing Crosby, Bob Hope used to have those kind of shows.
Guest:And Bowie was a guest.
Guest:And he's saying, I have no gift to bring.
Guest:I was like, oh, that guy is kind of freaky.
Guest:And that was around the time Amanda Fowled to Earth had come out.
Guest:All of the above.
Guest:I guess that's what you need.
Guest:You need to be on a Bing Crosby special.
Guest:You need to have a sci-fi flick and a record out.
Guest:And then kids will find out about you.
Marc:But it's interesting you saw them in that context.
Marc:Because there are those moments in your life where you're like, that's a portal to something I don't understand.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Because that particular footage is so mind-blowing.
Marc:Because Bowie's clearly a freak.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:He doesn't belong there yet.
Marc:He's respecting and fitting into this and singing beautifully.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:But you just knew that he was a window.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Into like, I need to understand what's behind that weird eye.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And at the same time, you know, I mean, I was I was picking up all those rock and roll magazines with, you know, photographs of cream with the.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Crawdaddy.
Guest:Hit Parader.
Guest:All of those things, you know.
Marc:And when did you start playing guitar?
Guest:I was 13.
Guest:I think I had just... Well, I got it for Christmas when I was 13, I suppose.
Marc:Did you take right to it or was it something then?
Guest:I did.
Guest:Well, you know what?
Guest:I didn't learn how to tune it for about a year or so.
Guest:That's not necessary.
Guest:So I just made noises for a year.
Guest:Just made... You had an electric at 13?
Guest:Yeah, my first guitar was an electric.
Guest:and uh yeah an sg a nice little a real sg no fake one little sears yeah a number but uh um yeah that was great and then i took a couple of lessons for a week or two with um you know kind of a folky lady taught us a bunch of gordon lightfoot songs and and i had no use for those things so much but if you care to read my mind girl
Marc:So outside of Bowie, who were the people that blew your mind that made you learn how to play guitar a certain way?
Guest:Well, you know, it's people like Roy Clark when I was a kid.
Guest:Great picker.
Guest:Glen Campbell.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And Brian May of Queen, you know.
Guest:That's a nice jump.
Guest:Johnny Cash, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think all of those things, there was a lot of reverb maybe.
Marc:Well, those first three, those are virtuoso guitar players.
Marc:yeah they were great guitar players i mean well i mean i think we grew up in that weird time where the wave of the 70s was crashing and when we were in high school i mean you you know zeppelin was firmly in place and there was a lot of that hard rock and then i remembered you must remember it i mean like when van halen's first album came out i mean the entire parking lot was every every car window was open with eruption blaring that's right and then we had to go through foreigner we had to go through heart i mean the shit it wasn't until like what like 77 or 78 where thin ties and buttons started showing up and
Guest:punk started breaking yeah there was a period where they you know it was all kind of happening it's kind of like walking into the hot topic today i suppose where you know some kid has a torn up you know uh yeah heart yeah punk rock sequined heart no those things don't go together you can't do that make a choice which archetype are you following yeah yeah but did you did you grow up in a country western home
Guest:Uh, sort of.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My, my, my mom and dad were big country fans and you know, we'd watch hee haw on the weekends and you know, so I don't know.
Guest:The Porter Wagner show.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:The Porter Wagner show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was a little creepy.
Guest:He was a little creepy.
Guest:That wild hair.
Marc:And Johnny Cash had a show on briefly when we were very young.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you remember watching that?
Guest:Uh, you know what?
Guest:I went back and got DVDs that came out of that and that was incredible because he had people like Neil Young and Bob Dylan.
Marc:Bob Dylan on.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He was really supportive.
Guest:He was kind of a rock and roll spirit.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:So now when you did the first records, I mean, you've had a long career.
Marc:And I guess what's interesting to me, and I'm going to talk to Greg Berendt about it also, just as a performer, that you get past this certain point where you've had this career, you get great at what you do, you have a lot of fans and a lot of respect, but you find yourself, you get past the point of reinventing yourself, and then you all of a sudden hit this place where you're like, I just got to be honest.
Guest:and i have to be earnest about my craft i mean do you find yourself at that place yeah yeah definitely like in in terms of the arc of of what you've gone through oh yeah yeah and it is an arc you know because early early on you know you're you're writing songs and you're kind of just playing for yourself and you're you're singing out into this void and and then one day you know maybe a voice comes back and says
Guest:hello you know and then that's remember me yeah you know and that's a shock and you have to deal with that you know and how does that affect your work and uh now what do i do right and then you got to get over that and realize you know i got to get back to just kind of doing this for me yeah so that i can you know i can do it in some genuine way
Marc:Now, in the music business, like, I guess that, like, because I had to sort of catch up with you.
Marc:I mean, I met you once before at Largo.
Marc:I can't remember what show that was.
Marc:But you're sort of integrated into that whole kind of L.A.
Marc:sort of, I don't know what kind of scene you would call it, but they seem to be, like, well, John Bryan and Amy Mann, are they your contemporaries?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, you know, we all kind of fell together at Largo, you know.
Guest:a long time ago in the pretty early 90s, you know.
Guest:It's tough to do because everybody's sort of scattered and they're, you know, they're all gypsies, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, you know, you go through long periods where you don't see people that you know.
Guest:Are you touring a lot?
Guest:Yeah, off and on.
Guest:I have a new record that came out last October and so I've been out, you know, on that and I'm probably in Europe in a couple of months.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where do you go in Europe?
Guest:I usually go to the UK.
Guest:I do well in Scandinavia.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, what's Scandinavia like?
Guest:Because I want to do comedy in Scandinavia.
Guest:It's great.
Marc:I mean, I've heard that everyone is beautiful.
Marc:Like, there are supermodels working at the gas station.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's kind of true.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, they're the giants and, you know, they're...
Guest:And they have a great grasp of English, you know.
Guest:So there's no problem with that, you know.
Guest:I didn't realize that for a long time.
Guest:And so I just kind of, I didn't say anything.
Guest:I'd step out on stage and I just, I don't.
Guest:You just play?
Marc:Yeah, I just play, you know.
Marc:I used to have a real fear of traveling internationally just because I thought, I think that music affords you.
Marc:I think music's a lot more magical than comedy.
Marc:You know, we're just talking and making people laugh.
Marc:But music, you know, you can just play a couple chords and like, wow, take someone to some other place.
Marc:Yeah, that's kind of true, huh?
Marc:And you've got a good following.
Marc:I mean, you've got fans.
Marc:I talk to people like you, and there are people like, oh, fuck, that guy's the best.
Guest:Seriously.
Guest:You've got to meet these people.
Guest:Maybe one will come tonight.
Marc:You know who they are.
Guest:Maybe one of them will come tonight.
Guest:That'd be nice.
Marc:Well, I mean, I'd like to see this as sort of similar in that we're not huge mainstream successes, but it seems like we definitely have a loyal bunch together.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Do you find that?
Guest:I feel like I've just kind of just, you know, stayed on a certain path and maybe I've gone off it here and there, but it's kind of the forest has kind of grown around me and that's like the scene or something in some ways, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's something that you really can't seek out.
Guest:You just kind of, you wind up kind of being thrown into, you know, those of like mind.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, if you're lucky, I mean, if you stay, if you work, if you continue working and you continue doing what you do, hopefully people will come and there's enough of them to make you a living.
Marc:So like, no?
Guest:Yeah, I guess that's true.
Marc:No, no, you're right.
Marc:It can be, you know?
Marc:But there was a point, I guess, where you, I mean, did you feel like you were on the precipice of mainstream success?
Marc:I mean, was that what you were gunning for?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, that was something that, you know, it wasn't necessarily what lured me into things, you know?
Guest:in the early 90s well even at the end of the 80s there were you know people were starting to make records pretty cheaply on their own and putting them out on small labels and that's great you can do that that would be a goal um but you know the label that we were signed to slash had a deal with warner brothers and so quite quickly when you have a little teeny bit of success you know then they go okay we're gonna you know we're gonna prioritize you right that's what they say
Guest:Yeah, that's what they say.
Guest:And then you find yourself, you know, doing a lot of shows playing for industry folks.
Guest:And, you know, you kind of push down that certain path.
Guest:And then if it doesn't happen, then everybody's kind of let down.
Guest:And you feel like, oh, fuck.
Guest:What was I supposed to?
Guest:What was my job again?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, so you got to get back to that.
Marc:So is that what happened where you got a little bit of disillusionment?
Marc:Was it the first record?
Guest:Well, the first one did okay.
Guest:It did pretty good, actually, in Europe.
Marc:Was that fuzzy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Mighty Joe Moon did well, and then the third one was kind of crazy ambitious.
Guest:I just kind of disappeared and read Beach Boys biographies for a year or so, and
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:We wrote a bunch of songs and put vibraphone and a lot of reverb on every one of them and 13 vocals.
Guest:And it was great.
Guest:But, you know, maybe we were told it was kind of dense.
Guest:Dense.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Too complicated for the regular palate?
Guest:I guess so, you know.
Guest:But I don't know.
Guest:You know, when you're a band and you're... I don't know.
Guest:Maybe it must be this way with comedy.
Guest:When you put out a record and it's your first record, you've got like 10, 11 songs...
Guest:and you do these songs night after night after night, you get a little bit tired of yourself and you want to create new material.
Marc:Oh, it's that feeling where you actually sit backstage and watch yourself play out there?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Look at them doing that same shit again.
Guest:By the time you've done it a couple of rounds, you're aching to reinvent something.
Marc:Yeah, well, I think that's the creative drive, but I think that the record industry or any sort of industry and show business that makes a buck off of something you did wants you to do that over and over again as much as possible.
Guest:Yeah, that's just it.
Guest:Those things are at odds.
Marc:Yeah, they are.
Marc:If you're a creative person, even if you look at somebody like Tom Petty, who's great, who I love, that there's a point where he does the same record a few times, and then he does something like The Last DJ, and you're like, I didn't even understand that record.
Marc:I don't even know what happened there.
Marc:And now he's back to doing what he did, even though it's great and it's still Tom Petty, and he seemed to manage, and you're still happy to hear from him.
Marc:There is sort of a curiosity in terms of like...
Marc:is that the creative, is that what he wanted to do?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like, is just stay in that groove.
Marc:Like, there are certain people that depart their groove, which it seems like you did for creative reasons.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You take the risk.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think that's what it was, you know.
Guest:And when I, when the band kind of, when I felt like I had kind of exhausted that, you know, I set the guitar down.
Guest:I didn't even want to write songs with the guitar so much.
Guest:I wanted to make noises and,
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, I really wanted kind of a fresh start.
Guest:Like what kind of noises?
Guest:Like Tom Waits noises or more electronic noises?
Guest:Well, I love those noises, but more electronic.
Guest:The computer was becoming more of a tool for me to work with.
Guest:And now it's the case, but I've kind of actually gone back and rediscovered my joy of playing the guitar.
Marc:And I like the way you play because I like when people seem to be genuinely having a good time and not acting like they're having a good time.
Marc:I can tell.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Oh, I'm having a good time.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I can tell.
Guest:It's like wrestling an oil pig playing that guitar.
Guest:It wants to go off and howl.
Guest:Oh, that's good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It seems to me that your success has enabled you not to have those moments where you're like, I got to get a job.
Guest:Well, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Marc:That's good.
Guest:It's a freaky time, though, in this industry because, you know, the whole record industry, I mean, the bands, a lot of the bands are still around, but the record labels aren't around and the record stores and the record magazines.
Marc:It's all on us now.
Marc:We've got to sort of like do our own thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We've got to put ourselves out there.
Marc:It's kind of horrible.
Marc:But I mean, it's better, but it's more work.
Marc:I mean, it used to be a time where it's like, I can just sit around and write all day or think about things, or you could sit around and play all day, but now we've got to get our shit out there.
Marc:It's on us.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Are you finding yourself doing that more?
Guest:yeah yeah most definitely you know and i mean i'm not i'm not an introverted person necessarily but um but i'm somewhat shy you know if he can be both he can oh yeah of course i extrovert sure oh yeah and the extrovert is usually protecting the shy guy i guess that's right yeah yeah and i just kind of find it difficult you know just to find the time to to get out and you know with a sandwich board and stand on the street corner and say look at me you know
Guest:Here I am with my guitar and my sandwich board.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'd rather spend that time just playing the guitar and writing songs and all that kind of stuff.
Guest:So yeah, it's a little bit tough.
Guest:So you've got a new record coming out now?
Guest:It came out in October, and so I'm just slowly letting it seep in.
Guest:That's the other thing I've realized that...
Guest:I'm not going to go out and just blitz everybody and jam it down their throat for three months like a major label will do.
Guest:It's going to take me a year to get from... To build it?
Guest:Yeah, from Los Angeles to Bergen and Oslo and everywhere else that I hope to get to.
Marc:yeah well i find that in the sense that like uh like i've never had a huge following and now you know because of this the show we're doing right now and because i've stayed with it long enough that my issue has always been i always made this assumption that because i'd been on conan this many times that i've been out there that that that everyone knew me they've just decided that they didn't like me whereas like it's got nothing to do with that you know people might not have registered me at all right so it's really about you know
Marc:being registered being seen and staying with it long enough so I do find that in some places like a lot of people come but in other places nobody comes but because my self-esteem is what it is when I'm in a place when there's 30 people in a room you know I'll say this is bullshit but I'll have great shows yeah
Marc:Because like sometimes with 200 people.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:The more intimate.
Marc:It's like, you know, I've often said that I prefer a half a house because there's less pressure.
Marc:There's less expectations.
Marc:And the possibility of something happening that will never happen anywhere else is higher.
Marc:Right.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Well, that's for sure.
Guest:I mean, I've seen, you know, a few of your shows, quite a few actually over the years at Largo.
Guest:And in fact, it was Valentine's.
Guest:Do you recall?
Guest:Oh, boy.
Guest:A Valentine's show.
Guest:I can't even imagine what this story is going to lead to.
Guest:Where was it?
Guest:At Largo?
Guest:It was at Largo.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think the bit had to do with something a bit on the dark side, perhaps.
Guest:I think it had to do with mortality and a funeral or something along those lines.
Guest:You were there when I got attacked?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think the guy said, don't go there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He said, we're all going to take you out, bitch.
Marc:We're going to take you out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then I shot one back at him.
Marc:I said, you're still going to take me out, bitch?
Marc:And he did.
Marc:He did.
Marc:You were there?
Guest:Yeah, it was crazy.
Guest:That was Valentine's Day?
Guest:I think it was Valentine's, yeah.
Guest:Holy shit.
Guest:That is so bizarre.
Guest:The most memorable Valentine's, you know, since the massacre.
Guest:Thank God I was the last act.
Marc:Paul Tompkins was hosting.
Marc:You know who else was in that room that night with Grant Lee Phillips?
Marc:Mick Jones, the elite guitar player, Foreigner.
Oh, wow.
Marc:Yeah, for some reason he was there.
Marc:And Vincent D'Onofrio, the actor.
Marc:You're all there to witness that.
Marc:Do you remember how quickly that fucking room cleared out?
Marc:I remember what happened.
Marc:The guy came up.
Marc:He was standing me off.
Marc:And I knew I was the last act.
Marc:I knew I couldn't run because that would look bad.
Marc:So I was like, I'm going to have to take a hit because I'm not really a fighter.
Marc:But I was ready to go.
Marc:And then he tackled me.
Marc:And then Flanagan, the owner of the club, came up.
Marc:And Dave Rath came up and pulled him off me.
Marc:And that crowd split quicker than anything I've ever seen.
Marc:Like, you know, you think that someone's going to watch your back or that crowd dynamic, but everyone's like, I don't know what's going to happen.
Marc:I want out.
Marc:It was a pretty exciting thing.
Marc:I know the joke.
Guest:But what can you do?
Guest:I mean, if I was in your shoes, it would be, you know, I think any of us, that's your place of work.
Marc:That's your temple.
Marc:And that had never happened to me before.
Marc:And out of all places, Largo, you know, the precious little, you know, supportive, arty dinner theater.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I get jumped.
Yeah.
Marc:I never understood that about hecklers in general, especially those kind where it's like, you can't say that.
Marc:It's like, dude, just leave.
Marc:I mean, you're just a member of an audience.
Marc:Like, I don't agree with this.
Marc:I'm going to go.
Marc:Not like, uh-uh, no.
Marc:What is that?
Marc:What is that?
Marc:I don't understand what that is.
Marc:But you don't have to experience that shit as a musician, dude.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:Goodness, you know what?
Guest:I mean, most of the time people are respectful, but now and then you get those folks that come, and I don't know, it happened maybe a year ago.
Guest:I was in Boston, and it's usually in Boston when this happens.
Marc:Of course, yeah, Boston.
Marc:Who's this fucking guy?
Guest:yeah yeah just a couple of guys at a table right in front they're always right in front you know and and i just had to say hey you know what you've been jabbering through the whole show and that's great you know i do a bit of film composing so i'm used to you know making the music fit underneath the dialogue but uh yeah maybe maybe you know we want to we want to get on with the show yeah you know and um oh god and they would not stop it would not stop
Marc:And you're getting angry, and it's starting to affect your performance.
Marc:Yeah, that's what happens.
Marc:Maybe glaring a bit.
Marc:Yeah, that kind of thing happens.
Marc:Did it get awkward or uncomfortable?
Guest:Eventually, they bailed on their tab.
Guest:They got up and left, you know, bailed on their tab.
Guest:But they left their credit card behind, though.
Marc:Oh, they did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They thought they were making a statement, and they still left their credit card behind?
Marc:That's right, yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's hilarious.
Marc:So the waitress wasn't pissed off?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:You don't want the waitress to be pissed off?
Marc:No, you never did.
Marc:Because the waitress in that particular situation would have been mad at you.
Yeah.
Marc:You know, because it's sort of like, why'd you have to, they left without paying me because you couldn't perform for talking people.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:So, you know, I got to ask you, I mean, I was asking Nick Foon about this earlier, you know, you're a guitar player.
Guest:I mean, were you ever kind of poised with that, that moment where you go, you know what?
Guest:This way comedy and I go this way with a guitar Do I bring my guitar down the comedy path or do I bring my comedy down the guitar path?
Marc:Well, you know with me it's like I you know I've played guitar a long time and I love playing guitar But I know because of my insecurity I never understood that you know when I when I was going when I would have made that decision I never understood that you know virtuosity is
Marc:in playing rock and roll is only relative to feeling and basic skills.
Marc:So what I'm saying is that I never thought I was good enough to play like that.
Marc:It took me years to really understand that the trick of playing guitar and singing is getting your feeling through your skills.
Marc:It's not like being the best or any of that shit.
Marc:It's expressing yourself.
Marc:So I just don't think I made that jump.
Marc:And also I sweat a lot when I play guitar.
Marc:And I never really, I just was too afraid.
Marc:But I do make a joke about it that like, you know, in my darkest moments when I'm like, I think comedy is not going to work out.
Marc:I actually say to myself, well, maybe it's time to get the band together.
Marc:And I've never been in a band.
Marc:And that's just like sort of going from the second lowest rung on show business, the latter to the lowest.
Marc:Because like at this point, what, I'm going to get into a van and I'm going to drive around with three guys my age?
Marc:It's not going to happen.
Marc:But guys our age are coming out of nowhere and actually, you know, succeeding.
Marc:Like, I mean, they've been like to hold steady.
Marc:I went to see those guys at Bumper Shooter.
Marc:Was it?
Marc:Oh, it was in Austin, South by Southwest.
Marc:They got to be our age.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they've been kicking around forever.
Marc:And I just think that I've always believed that, you know, people who pay their dues and know themselves and know who they are with their craft.
Marc:I mean, they are a force to be reckoned with.
Marc:It's just that the entire commercialization and the entire momentum of the business is just to get kids to like things.
Marc:And if they can get kids to like other kids, they'll sell that.
Marc:So it's sort of watered everything down.
Marc:But guys like you are probably at your best right now.
Marc:i think that's true yeah i mean there are things that you get better at you know and oh hell yeah and um and more honest and deeper and the wisdom comes through yeah but there was no way i was going to do guitar comedy that was like i think you made the right the right choice hopefully uh tonight my voice will hold up see i do this thing where i decide that i'm going to lose my voice anytime i have to do something important but i want to thank you for making me look good thank you i think we're talking today this is good oh it was great and uh and i'm looking forward to playing tonight
Guest:He's an incredible comedian.
Guest:He's a really good guy.
Guest:Please welcome Mr. Mark Merrin!
Marc:Yay!
Marc:Aw, look who she is.
Marc:So, uh, yeah, Bring the Rock.
Marc:I, um...
Marc:Fuck, you know, I gotta be honest with you.
Marc:This is actually terrifying for me.
Marc:I'm gonna play that guitar in front of you.
Marc:Now, the reason that I'm terrified happened when I was 15 years old.
Marc:I put together a band at a music camp.
Marc:And, of course, the guys that I chose to be in my band were all fuck-ups.
Marc:Every one of them.
Marc:They couldn't play.
Marc:Robert, the drummer, was a pothead.
Marc:The other guys, well, essentially what happened, and this is just a setup for the story so you know where I'm at, is that there was a competing band in the music camp.
Marc:And these were these nerdy guys, and it was the night of the performance, and I think these guys went on stage
Marc:and played an entire Genesis album.
Marc:Perfectly.
Marc:And we couldn't even fucking get through Johnny B. Goode without one of the guys throwing up.
Marc:I mean, it was unbelievable.
Marc:So that's where I am with stage fright, but I don't feel that bad.
Guest:So let's sing a Grateful Dead song that makes me cry.
Guest:Never done this before.
Guest:It's going to be fun.
Why is it buzzing?
Guest:We good?
Guest:Gonna leave.
Guest:This broke-down palace On my hands and my knees I will roll, roll, roll Make myself a bed
Guest:By the waterside In my time, in my time I will roll, roll, roll In a bed, in a bed By the waterside I will lay my head Listen to the river sing sweet songs To rock my soul
Guest:River gonna take me, sing me sweet.
Guest:And sleeping Swingly sweet and sleeping All the way back home It's a far gone otherwise So many years ago Mama, Mama, many worlds I've come Since I first left home
Guest:Going home, going home By the water side I will rake my bones Listen to the river sing sweet songs To rock my soul
Guest:Gonna plant a weeping willow By the banks, green edge, it'll grow, grow, grow Sing a lullaby beside the water
Guest:Lovers come and go when the river roll, roll, roll.
Guest:Fare you well, fare you well.
Guest:I love you more than words can tell.
Listen to the river sing sweet songs.
Drop my soul.
Doo-doo-doo-doo.
Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo.
Do-do-do-do Do-do-do-do Do-do-do-do Do-do-do-do Do-do-do-do
Marc:Oh, my fucking God, that went.
Marc:It went great.
Marc:It fucking went great.
Marc:I want to go up there and do the other song on the same show.
Marc:I want to do this for the rest of my life.
Marc:I've made the wrong decision.
Marc:I'm so fucking relieved.
Marc:I'm just going to enjoy this.
Marc:I'm just going to be high for a while.
Marc:All right.
Marc:And I'm going to go downstairs and talk to people as they walk out about me.
Marc:I'm very excited.
Marc:I'm here with Greg Berent, who's taken me in this new direction.
Marc:He's going in a new direction, but what he did for me last night was give me the opportunity to sing and play on stage to the point where, you know, tonight's the second show, and I'm cocky.
Marc:I'm like, you know, can I do both songs?
Marc:You don't mind if I jam with the band a little in between shows, do you?
Marc:Yeah, it's a hard thing to do.
Guest:Why are we so afraid of it, though?
Guest:Because last night you sang, that was really the first time you sang on stage?
Guest:In front of people who really tried to sing, yeah.
Guest:Not just some horseshit punk song that I made up that was stupid lyrics from years ago.
Marc:It's weird, right?
Marc:Because you feel more present than you ever do, and you're very self-conscious.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, last week, my daughters have a piano teacher, and she gives voice lessons.
Guest:So I just said, come over and give me a voice lesson.
Guest:And I started singing with her, and she goes, yeah, you got it.
Guest:And that was all the permission I needed.
Guest:I was like, really?
Guest:She goes, yeah, you got it.
Guest:You were in tune the entire time.
Guest:You need to figure out how to transition and sing the vowels.
Guest:Just always, if you get stuck, sing the vowels.
Guest:You can't sing a consonant.
Guest:And that was it for one lesson.
Guest:So then I'm like, well, now I've got a new career.
Guest:I'll just go ahead and drop stand-up.
Guest:Can I really sing?
Guest:So it's like pretty.
Guest:It's like Chris Isaac-y.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, okay.
Guest:But it was fun just to get that permission and then figure you got to take a risk.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:At this point...
Guest:I've done enough.
Guest:Now it's time to take some risks and have some fun.
Marc:I was just saying that, you know, I mean, I was just thinking that or saying it.
Marc:Maybe I just said it in my head and I consider it said is that not not so much career risk that that like, you know, how long am I going to hold on to this fear?
Marc:I mean, I find that in our lives so many of the things that are obstacles or fears are like they're whatever we were afraid of is gone.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It doesn't exist.
Marc:I mean, I mean, there are emotional fears that I have.
Marc:They're probably like from when I was seven.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And I'm wired that way.
Guest:Well, but think about what we do.
Guest:Like one of the things people are afraid of the most is stand up and talking in front of people.
Guest:And we do that nightly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So how bad could the rest of it go?
Guest:Like how?
Guest:When you're by yourself and you're not being funny and a crowd tells you to fuck off and someone says something like that, that's as vulnerable and as open as you can get.
Guest:And we both had that happen to us and lived.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not only to tell the story, but to get better by it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:So how much risk am I going to take playing guitar?
Guest:I don't care if I'm not a great guitar player.
Guest:I like playing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's fun to do.
Guest:And there's nothing like playing with a band.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or trying any of these other things.
Marc:Well, I think what I was talking about with Grant and I think what is true is and I talked about this with Nick Thune the last night, too, is that it's not really about like if you are capable, if you have the craft enough of it to at least, you know, represent yourself in an honest way.
Marc:If you're honest, I mean, that's you know, if you can get your feelings across, I mean, that's what counts.
Marc:Yeah, certainly in rock and roll.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:I mean, virtuosity is is rare.
Marc:You know, but but but good, honest, you know, singing or playing guitar isn't.
Marc:And I think that us admitting that we're amateurs on some level is good.
Marc:But but also it's it's sort of like that even diminishes it a little bit.
Marc:I mean, we're just we're just singing.
Guest:Well, the other thing is, too, is like there's when you're young, everything you do, you think, fuck, I got it.
Guest:This is what I'm going to do.
Guest:And then it's got to it's got to mean something.
Guest:But when you get old, you're like, I'll just do this.
Guest:And if it's fun and I like it, I'll just keep doing it.
Guest:And if people show, you know, I have a surf and ska band who gives a shit.
Guest:But I do.
Guest:I like it and I play in it.
Guest:We make music.
Guest:We make records and I do it.
Guest:I'm not looking for an outcome other than I can listen to it in my car.
Marc:Yeah, but that's not completely true because both of us made a choice to do comedy when we were very young.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And the weird thing about comedy, I think one of the things you're wrestling with that I think is interesting is that we don't really know where it's going to take us.
Marc:And we had this brief conversation about how when we were younger and you're driving to these one-nighters for $50 and you're drinking and you're 100 miles out from any city and you just perform for seven people through a guitar amp.
Marc:Right.
Marc:and they left the TV on, that how is this gonna turn into anything?
Marc:And what that means, but the one thing I know about comics, and the one thing I know about myself, is that you can't quit.
Marc:Is that you can't quit.
Marc:So this idea that we're younger, and you just sort of, you hook your dreams on this, or whatever you may think, something unlike anything I've ever seen before, is once you're doing, if you're five years into comedy, there's so much pride involved into it, and how do you quit?
Marc:I mean, how does anybody quit?
Marc:I've never known anybody that quits.
Marc:If you quit, you better not have made any sort of mark on anything and just been able to disappear into the real world.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because there's such a tragic sense of like, well, fuck, if I throw the towel in, you know, who the hell am I?
Marc:And like, I lose.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you've got 20 years of it.
Guest:But I do find sometimes that it's like...
Guest:There are days where I think, do I have more to say that's more interesting than someone like Matt Bronger, who I'll go see and go, shit, that guy's great.
Guest:Or any of the other, you know.
Guest:I experienced that too.
Guest:Or any of these guys where you go, fucking well done, sir.
Guest:And then...
Marc:do i should i stand in line and be in front of that guy or should i get out of line and let him go and should i find something else to do and yet i find myself continuing to do it whether i almost whether i want to or not i continue to do it well no but you're a thoughtful guy you're an intense guy you've got you've got a unique performance style that you've honed i mean i think that when you look at somebody like bronger the difference between those type of comics and us is that we choose to talk about our struggles our self-awareness
Marc:You know, our experience, you know, you have children, you have, you know, you're in recovery as well.
Marc:You don't mind me saying that?
Marc:Not at all.
Marc:You know, so so we're doing a different type of stand up.
Marc:We're really speaking experientially, whereas some of these guys are just like, you know, they're they're they're caricatures of themselves, which is not to diminish them.
Marc:So what I'm finding interesting about where you are in your career is that you have a certain amount of financial freedom now because of creative choices you made that were fine.
Marc:I mean, you did the book.
Marc:She's Just Not That Into You, right?
Marc:She's Just Not That Into You.
Marc:And then you took a series of opportunities from that.
Marc:which were lucrative and provided you and your family with a certain amount of comfort.
Marc:And now, you know, it's interesting when you talk about on stage, how you're at this juncture where, you know, you feel that this, this thing you created, which there's nothing wrong with it, but it created sort of a monster in terms.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In terms of, of what you have to deal with in, in relation to your craft as a standup is that now you're seen as this, this other guy.
Guest:right which is which is uh uh and and you have to know too that the book was a an absolute afterthought the show was done sex in the city which i was a writer on the idea was launched there when i was with with i was with one of the writers who was a girl who was seeing a guy that wouldn't fuck her and she said you know what what's the deal he doesn't fucking like you if i like you i fuck you that's just how it goes right and that was it and it became sort of this thing that we all talked about and it made it into an episode and then later on
Guest:Liz Tuchillo, the other author, said, I think there's a book idea in this.
Guest:And I go, well, I don't, I go, I'm not gonna, I can't pontificate.
Guest:I don't know how to, but if you ask me questions, I'll answer them.
Guest:So the book is a series of me being asked questions exactly like that one.
Guest:The fucking answer's on the cover.
Guest:It's the same answer.
Guest:over and over and over and it just gets more and more severe from if he doesn't call you to if he's a drunk and hits you.
Guest:It goes to that level.
Marc:But was this book written as a comedy book in your mind?
Guest:Yes, on some level it was written, yes, the answers were kind of snarky and funny and everything because it was very self-evident to me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But we did it, you know, because I'm a sober guy, I did it with that kind of like
Guest:But you're a good person.
Guest:You wanted to help.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're a good person.
Guest:Why should you have a shitty life?
Guest:Why would you continue a series of bad decisions?
Guest:Why would you be with someone who doesn't want to do the shit that you want to do?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Life's too short.
Guest:So we wrote it for fun.
Guest:We didn't get paid anything to do it.
Guest:It was on a novelty book label that made the Man Show books.
Guest:And we put it out and we just let it go.
Guest:Liz will tell you that she knew it was going to be a big deal.
Guest:I just went about my business entertaining 13 people at the Baltimore Improv.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it got on Oprah and it became, it just became this thing, which then you don't know who, I remember coming off Oprah and the first thing I said to my wife was, what did I just do to my standup career?
Guest:Because I knew it was going to be bigger than anything that I probably will ever do again.
Guest:And that's what it became.
Guest:And it was fun, you're right, opportunities, another book, do you want to do a TV show?
Guest:And they're also the only opportunities I got, like nobody was asking me to do anything but those kinds of things.
Guest:Of course, I mean this was your ticket, what are you going to do?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I took those opportunities and I enjoyed them.
Guest:But at the same time, dudes stopped coming to the shows.
Guest:Everybody who didn't read the book, who was a guy, had a preconceived idea about who I was.
Guest:People who didn't know me had a preconceived idea, a stereotype about it, as I would.
Guest:I wouldn't go see the author of Venus and Mars do stand-up.
Marc:I just wouldn't.
Marc:I remember doing Alex Bennett show with him.
Marc:He's a bore.
Marc:You wouldn't want to.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I mean, you make these assumptions.
Guest:And so anyway, and it became women, women, women, women, women.
Guest:And they'd come out to the show.
Guest:Sometimes they like them, but they ultimately wanted more information about dating.
Guest:And in New York, on the 20th anniversary of my doing stand-up, there was a table full of girls.
Marc:Where?
Marc:Caroline's?
Marc:Caroline's.
Marc:And it was packed?
Guest:Thursday night.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's a big room.
Guest:It's a big room.
Marc:It's like 400 people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and this uh girl just wouldn't shut up and i tried everything i could that i know all my skills yeah and i finally said jesus fucking christ you ruined the show forever you fucking ruined it yeah what the fuck is wrong with you who the fuck are you and i'm not handling and it's not going well and she starts crying oh bawling oh and uh and then i'm like oh shit and she reaches down she grabs the book out of her purse and she lifts it up in the air so everyone in the room can see it
Guest:My boyfriend broke up with me and then I got in his book and I just went.
Guest:She starts crying.
Guest:Dude stands up at the back of the room and goes, well, no wonder nobody will fuck you.
Guest:Oh, New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Another guy stands up and goes, oh, fuck her.
Guest:And I fucking threw the book down.
Guest:I mean, I threw my mic down and I walked off stage and I called my manager from the from the green room.
Guest:Had you done your time?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:But not all of it, no.
Guest:And she'd wrecked it.
Guest:I mean, she ruined the whole fucking show.
Guest:I got no laughs.
Guest:I mean, it was a terrible night.
Guest:And I went back and I called my manager and I said, I'm fucking done.
Guest:I can't do this anymore.
Guest:This isn't what I got into this for.
Guest:Put me on the road.
Guest:Let me open for Louis C.K.
Guest:Let me do something.
Guest:I go, maybe Maren and I could go.
Guest:Like, really, like, I just want to do comedy in front of people that like comedy.
Guest:And if I can't, I don't want to do this.
Guest:Because this is babysitting.
Guest:And as much as I like these people, this isn't what I do.
Guest:I don't know what to do.
Guest:And so he did.
Guest:He took me off the road.
Guest:And...
Guest:And I sort of shut down an income stream that would still be very good for me, but I was miserable.
Guest:I was totally miserable.
Guest:And I'm like, the only person who can change this is me.
Guest:And I can only change this by going back and getting back involved in the comedy community and doing UCB and doing all the things that I could do.
Guest:Literally, I did another podcast.
Guest:I did the Jimmy Pardo's podcast, like maybe six months later.
Guest:And there were people that wrote in and went, I didn't know you still did comedy.
Guest:Or I didn't know you were funny.
Guest:Or I didn't know this is, like they just, people didn't know.
Guest:And I realized I had, if I wanted to do this, I needed to put more time into it, but in the right way.
Marc:Yeah, well, it's just like, to me, it's an amazing story.
Marc:And obviously, you know, you're not going to get people feeling sorry for you.
Guest:And I don't want them to.
Marc:No, I know that.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But I'm just saying that, like, it's just interesting how people judge us in show business in general is that, you know, we set out to do something that's our thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you really don't know, you know, how the opportunity is going to come or what the hell is going to pop.
Guest:No.
Marc:I mean, I've done some shit that I'm glad didn't take off.
Marc:I've hosted a game show because I was broke on VH1 and it didn't take off.
Marc:I need the money.
Marc:But it's just interesting that you had this tremendous amount of success with this thing that I knew in my heart was it must have been written as sort of a funny thing.
Marc:I guess there was no way to know it would take off like it did.
Marc:But then I couldn't imagine when you were doing the syndicated show...
Marc:Just from my own personal point of view, like I'd been given an opportunity to host a type of show like that where you had people with problems and you had to be the guy to sort of like, you know, be the buffer or the solver or the solver being, you know, S-A-L-V-E-R, if that's a word, to solve what's going on over there.
Marc:I'm a human poultice.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Or to even help problem solve.
Marc:And I think that, you know, given our experience in recovery and stuff, I think that we are just as equipped as any, you know, crackpot psychologist on TV.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But you don't want the burden of that.
Marc:So when I saw you doing that, like I watched it a couple of times and literally I had this moment where I'm like, yeah, that can't be easy for him.
Marc:I'm not going to watch this anymore.
Guest:No.
Guest:It's that weird thing, too, where as a as a person recovery, I go, well, this is like service.
Guest:So this is like this is I mean, it's paid service, which is not what it's supposed to be.
Guest:But maybe I can bring something to bear there.
Guest:I mean, I have always from the from the very get go from as soon as I got sober, my stand up has always had a small undercurrent of don't fucking blow this thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'm you know, I am.
Guest:I'm a genuinely optimistic person and I genuinely believe anyone can do whatever they want with their lives.
Guest:And so many people fucking waste it and they don't take risks and they don't try shit.
Guest:And then it's over.
Guest:It's over quick.
Guest:And I've always tried to say, look, man, especially when my first special, which was called Mantastic, I was like, look, if you're a dude and you're stuck in that fucking stereotype of being a man, you're going to miss this experience, man.
Guest:Don't just be a fucking sports guy.
Guest:Don't limit yourself while you're here.
Guest:And so that's always been a part of my thing.
Guest:And I thought I could do that.
Guest:And the show was just hard.
Guest:And it's an everyday thing.
Guest:And the other thing I didn't like was they bring in people who are genuinely fucked up and then they just, they come in, you try and throw something at them.
Marc:I can't, I can't, like, they're like, you know, go harder at them.
Guest:Like, you know, take, it's insane.
Guest:And because what they want is something that they can tease in the credits.
Guest:They want, they want conflict and they want you to yell and then they want to show it.
Marc:Was there a specific moment where you're looking at these people and you're like, I can't, I can't push them anymore.
Guest:Yes, a couple times.
Guest:And then a couple times where I came off stage and would say to the producer, you fucking go out there because these are people, asshole.
Guest:And then later on, they're going to go home.
Guest:We've given them nothing.
Guest:We don't have any money.
Guest:This isn't Oprah.
Guest:They're going to go home.
Guest:We're going to throw some psychologist at them in their fucking local area.
Guest:We've just exploited them.
Guest:Yeah, and yes, sure, we gave the guy new teeth.
Guest:And yeah, we had to kick those people off because of lice.
Guest:And yes, these people just want to be on television.
Guest:And yes, the entire audience is paid junkies.
Guest:They bust in an audience of fucking homeless and junkies.
Guest:The whole thing was just...
Marc:ah it was gross it's dirty that kind of really dirty dirty it's really dirty even the stuff even with you doing a higher brow version of that with comedic elements and raising guys that we know like dave and dave anthony and people yep is that when you're in that world and i just did a pilot for something like that and i was like this is filthy and like i once did montel on a comedy showcase years ago and just being in it it just feels dirty it feels evil it does and it and it's
Guest:Yeah, because those things are just money making machines.
Marc:They're exploiting people's pain in such a shameless way.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:And Oprah does it.
Guest:I mean, to a certain level.
Guest:And she also does a lot of good for people.
Guest:But, you know, watch the teasers for her show.
Guest:I mean, they bring in the same fucked up.
Marc:She had sex with her father.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Boom.
Marc:Now she's in pornography and drugs.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Is there hope for her?
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, you watch her.
Guest:I remember one where the where the teaser was Oprah saying and then he ejaculated on your face.
Guest:and I'm like oh my god like even Oprah has to that's the tease that's the thing that they were thrilled about in the booth when they got it and so it feels like it just is gross now I've listened to every single one of your show because I really enjoy it but I feel like you do something like this it's sort of like a book
Guest:People can listen to you.
Guest:They can take your information from you.
Guest:You're not telling anybody how to do anything.
Guest:You're sharing your experience, whatever, your strength.
Guest:I like listening to you struggle through your personality because I've known you for a long time.
Guest:And people can listen to that and they go, well, Mark did this.
Guest:And he's not telling me I have to do this.
Guest:He's saying this is what I did.
Guest:And that's what...
Guest:That kind of thing I think can be very helpful for people.
Guest:They can make the decision while listening to you, but you're not pontificating.
Guest:And that's the difference.
Guest:I think it's great to be able to say to somebody, well, you know what?
Guest:I mean, shit, people go, how'd you lose weight?
Guest:I go, well, I did this, this, and this, but it may not work for you.
Marc:That's the only way to do it because I made a conscious decision that because when I was angrier and and a little more self-righteous, you know, you you you can focus your anger in a way that that makes it condescending.
Marc:But it doesn't necessarily mean that I felt that way about what I was angry about because it wasn't angry about that.
Marc:I'm just an angry guy.
Marc:So when you get down to the core of it, that there's fear, and then on top of that, there's sadness, and then there's anger, that the individual experience, that's what needs to be traced.
Marc:That's what needs to be parsed, and that's what needs to be shared.
Marc:Is that, look, when young comics say, I want to do what you do, I literally say, well, I don't recommend my process.
Marc:Because it's inconsistent.
Marc:It doesn't always work.
Marc:And it's unique to me, not out of a decision I made.
Marc:It's just I don't know how to do it any other way.
Marc:But this is what I do.
Guest:Right, and yeah, and be inspired that... Here's what's also great about listening, when I've listened to this show.
Guest:None of us do it the same way, yet all of us have the same experiences.
Guest:And regardless of content, from Mencia to David Cross, we all, to use your phrase, we built our clown, but we all do it a certain way.
Guest:I can't write the way Patton does.
Guest:I cannot sit down and do it.
Guest:I have to work it out on stage.
Guest:I have to come up with a handful of thoughts, say it a bunch of times, and the shit that sticks, and I never do the bit the same.
Guest:There's always pieces that stick and some that go...
Guest:And I've never been able to do it any other way.
Guest:That just has to be my process.
Guest:It means it takes me longer to write.
Guest:It means sometimes I'm dreadful, but that's how it goes.
Guest:And I think that people, we're such a self-help addicted nation and we're constantly telling people how much they're doing things wrong.
Guest:Every show is about how you should be doing it better and how you're doing it wrong.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's horrible.
Guest:And we're addicted to it.
Guest:And one thing we never do is look at ourselves and go, well, what do I want to do?
Guest:How am I going to fix it?
Guest:And then just take a little bit from people who are like, why don't you write more books?
Guest:I go, because I said what I need to say.
Guest:Take a little bit of mine.
Guest:Grab something else.
Guest:It's like a fucking buffet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And build your own ideology, build your own religion, build your own thought process.
Guest:Cause that's the only way it's going to work for you.
Guest:I can't do what Eckhart Tolle did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I can't even listen to him.
Guest:I can't, I tried to read his book.
Guest:I'm like, I don't even know how you, you do your thing, but it works for, it must work for him on some level.
Marc:Some of it stick too.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I mean, that's the other issue with self-help is that like, you know, you can write uplifting shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like with you, I mean, you're pretty genuine, you know, and you've always had, you know, you're always a sort of glass half full guy.
Marc:And I think your clarity around your self-awareness and what you think people should do is good.
Marc:And it's earned, you know, because I think one of the things we all struggle with is like, I'm a guy that there were times where I would be so incapacitated by fear that like I couldn't fucking get out of bed.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I mean, I literally and it wasn't depression.
Marc:It was just sort of like the idea of the rest of the day or tomorrow, you know, was like, you know, what the fuck is going to happen?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, how the hell do I get out of this?
Marc:You know, what is anything ever going to work out?
Marc:you know period yeah i don't think that's depression but i just think that that these obstacles that we have to uh that we have to sort of that people deal with every day and that's always been my thought yep with this with this show and living my life right now is that every day is a heroic journey for most people because if they're at all aware of of their their fear and their pain or their their uh the the things they want to do even if they're just sitting there in their cubicle i mean what's going on inside them it's like it's massive
Guest:No, completely.
Marc:It's life-threatening.
Guest:But there's a difference.
Guest:I think you make a really good point.
Guest:There's a difference between how is it going to work out, which is fear, and it's not going to work out, which is depression.
Guest:Depression is it's not fucking going to work out.
Guest:I mean, that's where people go.
Guest:They're hopeless because they go... I mean, that's sort of at the end of my drinking.
Guest:I go, this doesn't end well.
Guest:This is the end.
Guest:This is what the end feels like.
Guest:It goes like this.
Guest:I fucking am hopeless and shitty and fat and unfunny and...
Guest:All of those things.
Guest:But how is it gonna work out is a fear, but it can be overcome.
Guest:You just have to fucking put, you just gotta get out of bed.
Guest:You just gotta push yourself out the door.
Marc:But that's just it.
Marc:It's the weirdest thing.
Marc:It's like there are those tricks you learn in recovery where it's sort of like you're exactly where you need to be.
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:I'm fucking miserable.
Marc:Why are you saying that?
Marc:But then when you really think about the logic of, well, where else could I be?
Marc:Like in that moment, if you don't accept your process, I mean, and really accept it, like, oh, it's just a bad day.
Marc:It's not the end of the fucking world.
Marc:Because if you have that disposition where it's like, you know, this day's bad.
Marc:Every day is going to be bad.
Marc:You're going to make it happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:And look, you got to like take your shit.
Guest:And like the great thing, one of the things that Amira and I in the second book, the thing we wrote about how to get through a breakup was just like you can take your fucking disaster and use it as an excuse for reinvention.
Guest:Now, the real real truth is when the talk show got canceled.
Guest:And we had a third book in line.
Guest:We got dropped by our publisher.
Guest:I got dropped by my agent.
Marc:After the second book.
Guest:After the talk show got canceled and after the second book, we had a third book slotted.
Guest:We got dropped by our publisher.
Guest:I lost my agent left.
Guest:I lost my manager quit.
Guest:I fired my book agent.
Guest:In a period of two weeks, I lost everything.
Guest:And the phone actually, genuinely stopped ringing completely.
Guest:I was completely career done.
Marc:Because they all said, well, you know, they built a machine for him and the machine didn't work.
Guest:Played out.
Guest:That's how that played out.
Guest:And it's done.
Guest:We need nothing from him.
Guest:We need nothing from him.
Guest:He can't sell our shit.
Guest:We don't know what to do with him.
Guest:He doesn't have a machine anymore.
Guest:He doesn't have anything to do with it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I don't feel bad.
Guest:You hear those stories and you go, that doesn't really happen.
Guest:No, it does.
Guest:It really does.
Guest:And you lose all your people.
Guest:I lost my agency.
Guest:I lost everything of that machine.
Marc:And a lot of people listening to this may think like, well, these are luxury problems or whatever.
Marc:But you have to take into mind that not unlike whatever job you do,
Marc:out there this is our job and and you know however well we do when this juncture happens that you know all of a sudden that you everybody represents you everyone who's part of facilitating your your income says you know fuck it i mean that's a that's like being fired that's it it totally is and and uh and again i didn't feel bad for myself but it gave me the opportunity to that's when i said you know what fuck it i'm gonna learn how to play guitar
Guest:I got time now, and I don't have anything to say, and I don't want to be doing the self-help stuff.
Guest:I'll take guitar lessons.
Guest:That's all I'm going to do.
Guest:And then within six months, it evolved into me writing a piece of music to go on stage to, to having a band, and going, oh, fuck, well, that was...
Guest:That's what was meant to be.
Guest:I'm supposed to go down this path now.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And now I'm giving myself permission.
Guest:I remember specifically, somebody gave me this fantastic picture of The Clash, and I put it up in my office, and I said, the next things that I do, if it doesn't look like this picture, if it doesn't feel like this picture looks of The Clash, I'm not going to do it.
Guest:So when somebody would offer me a game show, I'd walk down to the picture.
Guest:I'm not shitting you.
Guest:I'd walk down to the picture, look at the picture of The Clash, and go, I'm not fucking doing a game show.
Guest:And I'd go back and call my manager and go, I'm not doing the game show.
Guest:I need money too, whatever.
Guest:I got kids and blah, blah, blah.
Guest:But also I was like, I can't feel that shitty thing again.
Guest:From here on out, it's gotta feel like it matters.
Guest:It's gotta be bring the rock or it's gotta be something that I at least feel like, you know, that doesn't mean that I'm gonna make only punk rock things.
Guest:You know, Clash were a pop band really when you break it down.
Guest:I'm glad you qualified.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, I mean, no doubt it's my favorite band.
Guest:Let's not kid ourselves.
Guest:I love I love polka dots.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But the point is, is that I get to decide how it goes from here on out.
Guest:And and and because of all those things that happened, I just got to clean house and I got to reinvent.
Guest:And so for me, it was a great opportunity.
Guest:But it was a weird thing to know.
Guest:People will leave you.
Guest:They will bail on you when you stop working for them.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I was fortunate never to have made anyone that much money to ever.
Marc:You're right.
Guest:But it's changing for you now.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It is changing for you now.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Well, I'll tell you one thing I know about you.
Guest:What's that?
Guest:You're a good guy.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:So are you.
Guest:And I appreciate it.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:Okay, bye.
Guest:All right.
So you know it'll be all right.
I'm going up, I'm going down.
I'm going to fly from side to side.
See the bells up in the sky.
Somebody's going to shrink in view.
Maybe you do.
All right.
Marc:I gotta be honest with you folks I mean that was it wasn't that it was a rush it wasn't even that it was cathartic but getting on stage and playing guitar and singing
Marc:felt like i was supposed to be doing it that it was stupid that i hadn't done it i enjoy it so much and that fear had stopped me from doing it when i rehearsed with the guys i realized these guys are professional they're not judging me i can hold my own here i know how to play guitar a bit i know this song i learned it
Marc:And that we're going to have a good time up here.
Marc:We're going to work together.
Marc:We're going to be musicians playing together.
Marc:And that made me feel great.
Marc:And then all of a sudden, I just realized that the way that I think people judge me is so negative that I invent an audience in my mind of people that are saying, wow, this is embarrassing.
Marc:This sucks.
Marc:He really isn't good at this.
Marc:Wow, I had no idea it would be this bad.
Marc:It was something I wrote a long time ago.
Marc:Most of what other people think is something I make up.
Marc:And it's always bad.
Marc:And I think walking through the fear, it was just interesting.
Marc:I was prepared.
Marc:I wanted to do it.
Marc:I know I had to do it for myself.
Marc:I felt comfortable with the material.
Marc:And I decided that the audience was going to be supportive.
Marc:And I did it.
Marc:And it feels great.
Marc:It felt like it was like skydiving to other people.
Marc:It was like something sort of like, before I die, I need to do that.
Marc:And I just think that the fear was ridiculous.
Marc:I just feel thrilled.
Marc:Yeah, just to walk through that fear.
Marc:Well, I hope you enjoyed it.
Marc:If you need anything WTF related, go to WTFpod.com.
Marc:Get your Audible book there through that link.
Marc:You can get your JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:You can go to StandUpRecords.com and check out that catalog.
Marc:Maria Bamford, Doug Stanhope, myself.
Marc:several other artists on there uh please go to punchline magazine.com as well to get up to speed on uh on all the comedy news i mean louis ck did an exclusive uh interview there uh what else you can send a donation of any kind you know your 250 donation does get you
Marc:Three of my CDs, a best of what the fuck CD, two T-shirts, some stickers and a signed postcard.
Marc:And I would love to give that stuff to you.
Marc:So make a donation.
Marc:Go to the website.
Marc:Enjoy yourselves.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:Keep on rocking in the free world.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I'll talk to you later.
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