Episode 858 - Lizzy Goodman / Dana Gould

Episode 858 • Released October 25, 2017 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:Alright, let's do this.

00:00:10Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck, buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fuck, Nicks?

00:00:14Marc:What the fucksters?

00:00:15Marc:What's happening?

00:00:15Marc:I'm Mark Maron.

00:00:17Marc:This is my podcast, WTF.

00:00:19Marc:How are you?

00:00:19Marc:Are you okay?

00:00:22Marc:I am okay.

00:00:23Marc:Back in the studios, shooting the TV.

00:00:26Marc:It's exciting, but it's long hours, and I'm actually recording this late at night after I've shot.

00:00:32Marc:But fortunately...

00:00:33Marc:I don't have to meander too much or noodle around or think out loud too much because I've got a couple of guests.

00:00:40Marc:I got a nice short talk with the amazing Dana Gould.

00:00:45Marc:And then later after that, I talked to Lizzie Goodman about her book.

00:00:50Marc:Did you read her book, the Meet Me in the Bathroom, Rebirth and Rock and Roll in New York City, 2001 to 2011?

00:00:58Marc:I was in the book, and I feel like I completely missed music at that point in time.

00:01:03Marc:I talked to her about that.

00:01:05Marc:But Dana, he's got a new comedy album out called Mr. Funny Man.

00:01:09Marc:It's available on Kill Rock Stars Records.

00:01:12Marc:And the new season of his IFC show, Stand Against Evil, is premiering November 1st.

00:01:17Marc:And Dana and I go way back.

00:01:18Marc:I love them.

00:01:20Marc:I love him.

00:01:21Marc:He's one of the guys I knew when I was just starting out.

00:01:24Marc:He was sort of a child prodigy.

00:01:26Marc:Is that what you call it?

00:01:28Marc:A comedic child prodigy almost.

00:01:30Marc:He started when he was like 15 or 16 in Boston.

00:01:34Marc:But always pretty genius-y.

00:01:38Marc:So, oh, I know what I want to tell you about.

00:01:40Marc:If you live in Los Angeles...

00:01:42Marc:You Los Angelinos this Sunday, October 29th.

00:01:47Marc:I want to see you at our only L.A.

00:01:50Marc:book talk and signing.

00:01:52Marc:I'll be at the Ann and Jerry Moss Theater in Santa Monica with my producer and co-author of Waiting for the Punch, Brendan McDonald, doing a little Boston spin on the talking.

00:02:04Marc:This is all part of Live Talks LA.

00:02:06Marc:It's a 7 p.m.

00:02:07Marc:event and we'll make it worth your while on a Sunday night.

00:02:10Marc:You'll get some book talks, some behind the scenes stuff about WTF, some secrets that you didn't already know.

00:02:15Marc:We'll take your questions.

00:02:17Marc:We'll sign your stuff.

00:02:18Marc:It'll be great.

00:02:19Marc:Bring your copy of Waiting for the Punch if you already have one.

00:02:22Marc:Or you can get one with your ticket.

00:02:24Marc:Go to LiveTalksLA.org to get tickets or go to the tour page of WTFPod.com.

00:02:29Marc:That's Sunday, October 29th, LiveTalksLA.org or WTFPod.com.

00:02:38Marc:Oh, my God.

00:02:41Marc:Long day today.

00:02:44Marc:For me, as I told you, I'm recording this in the evening, and I'm back in it.

00:02:49Marc:I'm shooting the glow.

00:02:50Marc:I'm shooting with the ladies, the gorgeous ladies of wrestling.

00:02:54Marc:We're doing it again, me and Allison, Betty, and the crew.

00:02:58Marc:But, you know, you got to get up, go to work, hang out, wear costumes, stay in one place, stay in another place, do the talking, wait, go out, another camera, change the lens, do the talking again.

00:03:13Marc:It's a little tedious, but when you do get to do the acting and you engage and you have that emotional connection, it's nice.

00:03:21Marc:It's good.

00:03:22Marc:It's exciting.

00:03:23Marc:It makes the world go away for a few minutes, which gets harder and harder to do.

00:03:28Marc:I hope you guys are hanging in.

00:03:32Marc:And as I said, I'm a little tired and I've got two guests, so I'm going to lean on that a little today.

00:03:37Marc:So Dana Gould, what can I tell you about Dana Gould?

00:03:40Marc:He's been on the show before.

00:03:42Marc:He's had his he's had his problems.

00:03:45Marc:He's had his ups and downs.

00:03:47Marc:He's a warrior of the mind, a battler of the depression, a survivor of an alcoholic family, a father, a writer, Simpsons writer in an inspired stand up.

00:04:02Marc:He's the whole package.

00:04:03Marc:If you don't know him, you should check out his stuff.

00:04:05Marc:And as I said, he's got an album out now, Mr. Funny Man.

00:04:09Marc:That's on Kill Rockstars Records.

00:04:10Marc:And his IFC show, Stand Against Evil, premieres November 1st, the new season.

00:04:16Marc:And he just stopped by to chat.

00:04:18Marc:And it was...

00:04:21Marc:It was a treat, and I want you to listen to me and Dana talking, because me talking right now, not great.

00:04:28Marc:Not great in the head, not great in the heart, and a little tired.

00:04:30Marc:But this is me and Dana on a different day having a conversation.

00:04:42Marc:I don't know, man.

00:04:43Marc:How old are you?

00:04:44Marc:I'm 53.

00:04:45Marc:I just turned 53.

00:04:46Marc:I'm 54 today.

00:04:47Marc:Happy birthday.

00:04:48Marc:I had no idea.

00:04:49Guest:Yeah.

00:04:50Guest:I'd have bought something.

00:04:51Guest:Now I feel like shit.

00:04:51Guest:Now I feel bad.

00:04:52Guest:It's just nice to see you.

00:04:53Marc:Thanks, Mark.

00:04:54Marc:It's nice to see you.

00:04:55Marc:I didn't do that to you.

00:04:56Marc:You did that to you.

00:04:57Guest:Well.

00:04:59Marc:Don't you blame me.

00:04:59Marc:You've cracked it.

00:05:00Marc:I'm not going to play that game.

00:05:01Guest:You've cracked it.

00:05:02Guest:You can play that game with ladies.

00:05:03Guest:Oh, I play that game.

00:05:04Guest:I play that game pretty fucking well.

00:05:06Guest:I know you do.

00:05:09Guest:Not on my watch.

00:05:09Guest:I'm a Jesse Owens of that game.

00:05:12Marc:Well, happy birthday.

00:05:14Marc:Thank you very much.

00:05:15Marc:Do you have plans?

00:05:16Marc:We're going to go out to dinner, me and the girlfriend.

00:05:19Marc:Let me ask you a question about that.

00:05:21Guest:I know this is your podcast, but I want to ask you a question.

00:05:25Guest:She's not a girl.

00:05:26Marc:No, I know.

00:05:26Marc:I have this.

00:05:27Marc:I don't like partner.

00:05:29Guest:Nor is mine.

00:05:30Guest:But woman friend sounds like she's my nurse.

00:05:34Guest:Grandpa's coming over, but he's going to have to come with his woman friend.

00:05:37Marc:Yeah.

00:05:38Marc:You're getting close, Grandpa.

00:05:39Marc:Yeah, I know.

00:05:40Marc:A few more years.

00:05:40Marc:I don't know what to call it.

00:05:41Marc:I don't know what to call it.

00:05:43Marc:Some people go with partner, but I don't know.

00:05:45Marc:I just go with girlfriend.

00:05:47Marc:Yeah.

00:05:48Marc:What does yours do?

00:05:50Guest:She's an editor.

00:05:52Guest:An editor.

00:05:53Guest:This a new thing?

00:05:54Marc:Yeah.

00:05:55Marc:Yeah.

00:05:55Marc:How's it going?

00:05:56Guest:very good very happy yeah how long not long like a little over like like two months or something but really oh good so you she's an adult you know like okay yeah she's a grown woman has the children you know like we have yeah yeah

00:06:13Marc:Oh, really?

00:06:14Marc:Yeah.

00:06:14Marc:Oh, that's good.

00:06:15Marc:Yeah.

00:06:15Marc:So, like, even playing field.

00:06:18Marc:Level playing field.

00:06:19Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:06:21Marc:Yeah, very much so.

00:06:21Marc:Mature relationship.

00:06:23Marc:Yeah, I imagine that at this point, maybe you've met somebody that doesn't give a fuck about the things that you both used to give a fuck about.

00:06:30Marc:Totally, yeah.

00:06:32Guest:Well, especially...

00:06:34Guest:With kids, it's just you really got to prioritize.

00:06:37Guest:Sure.

00:06:38Guest:The first thing that goes out the window is going to see bad movies ironically.

00:06:46Guest:Done.

00:06:46Marc:I can't do that.

00:06:48Guest:No time.

00:06:49Guest:Yeah.

00:06:50Guest:But I am at that point like...

00:06:52Guest:all right i don't want to fuck this up yeah oh good so yeah i feel that too now great now i have to grow yeah yeah or turn some shit off yeah i have to turn some shit off and be an adult yeah it's the worst right i'm gonna grow he muttered yeah muttered as he stuffed all his feelings exactly like i'm just like a halloween dummy of feelings instead of leave just walking around going well what am i supposed to do with this tone yeah

00:07:22Guest:I have to save this for horror movies.

00:07:27Guest:Where does this go?

00:07:28Guest:Why are you going in the basement when your friend was just killed in the kitchen?

00:07:32Guest:And why am I doing Albert Brooks now?

00:07:34Guest:Why not?

00:07:34Guest:It's relieving.

00:07:35Guest:Why am I not?

00:07:36Marc:No, I'm angry and I'm Albert Brooks.

00:07:38Marc:Because we wish we could make it as endearing as Albert Brooks.

00:07:43Marc:When I'm operating at that tone, it's never endearing.

00:07:46Guest:Yeah, there's nothing I'm angry.

00:07:48Guest:And I've honestly, like...

00:07:51Guest:You get to a point in your life where you can't keep blaming your parents for your shit.

00:07:56Guest:Not actively.

00:07:58Guest:Exactly.

00:07:59Guest:Like, you can't say it, but we both know.

00:08:01Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:08:03Guest:You know, my family of origin, God love them, and I have great relationships with all of them, but I have still such little self-esteem.

00:08:11Guest:Like, it took me the longest time.

00:08:13Guest:Like, oh, you actually like me.

00:08:15Guest:Like, when I come over, you're happy.

00:08:16Guest:Yeah.

00:08:17Guest:Okay.

00:08:18Guest:Your funeral.

00:08:19Yeah.

00:08:21Guest:All right, then.

00:08:22Marc:Good luck with that.

00:08:24Marc:Let's see how that works out.

00:08:24Marc:I'm going to show you some pictures of the last ones I tried.

00:08:29Marc:This one's from college.

00:08:30Marc:Yeah.

00:08:32Guest:Look at the eyes in that one.

00:08:34Guest:Look at that one.

00:08:35Guest:Just bats and screaming children.

00:08:37Guest:That's all you can see.

00:08:39Guest:You thought it was going to be okay.

00:08:40Guest:Are these pictures of people just out of Dachau?

00:08:42Guest:Oh, they wish.

00:08:45Guest:Well, you know Dan Klaus, the brilliant cartoonist?

00:08:48Guest:I've talked to him.

00:08:50Guest:You know what he did for a while, especially in 8-Ball, the characters would have these crazily existential stricken face.

00:09:01Guest:What he would do is he would go into towns and he would buy old mug shots.

00:09:06Guest:So he was basing these drawings of people at the worst moment of their life.

00:09:12Guest:Oh, really?

00:09:12Marc:Getting fingerprinted.

00:09:13Marc:I don't think he told me that.

00:09:15Marc:I interviewed him.

00:09:16Marc:I know that he makes note of people like he sees people a certain hat or a certain way.

00:09:20Marc:He'll see people in passing and sketch.

00:09:23Guest:And he's such a brilliant observer of people in the way like when he was in Chicago.

00:09:29Guest:You look at the eight balls that he did when he was in Chicago and everybody in there looks like people from Chicago.

00:09:33Guest:You know, everybody looks like a ham sandwich.

00:09:35Guest:Yeah.

00:09:35Guest:And then when he moved to Berkeley and Oakland, it took on more of that cast.

00:09:40Marc:That's interesting.

00:09:41Guest:He's really great.

00:09:41Guest:Where did you record this new special?

00:09:44Guest:It's just an album.

00:09:45Guest:It's just the audio.

00:09:47Guest:Yeah, it's a comedy record.

00:09:49Marc:But available digitally as well or just on vinyl?

00:09:52Marc:No, it's only on digital.

00:09:53Marc:I want no one to buy it.

00:09:54Marc:So I made a thousand copies, a small pressing of a record.

00:09:57Marc:Yeah, it's on Edison Cylinder.

00:10:01Guest:No, it's just digital.

00:10:03Guest:And I said to the record company, let's do a vinyl thing.

00:10:05Guest:I went, eh, it's okay.

00:10:09Marc:they make money they're a real record no no we actually we're in this to make a profit we're not going to do that i think mine came out like i just it was weird because i shot a special for netflix yeah bobcat directed it no not that one this is a new one lynn shelton directed okay bobcat directed my epics special okay yeah but uh but they wanted to do record and i'm like all right and then they're like i was gonna do the set uh take it do the same set but elongated sure yeah and then like by the time it came to the wire i'm like

00:10:37Marc:Yeah, just take that.

00:10:38Marc:Just take the thing.

00:10:39Marc:Yeah, I did it already.

00:10:40Guest:I think that's how to do it.

00:10:41Guest:And I wish this was a special, but nobody... Because there was a point, there was a brief period of time when Netflix gave comedy specials to everyone between the ages of 25 and 45.

00:10:54Marc:Maybe I just got in under the wire on that.

00:10:57Guest:No, a lot of people have comedy specials on Netflix that aren't even comedians.

00:11:00Guest:There's a guy at my Trader Joe's that has one.

00:11:04Yeah.

00:11:04Guest:i know that guy yeah the guy that sprays the broccoli he has a special called still spraying and i i got there it's like i i always miss the door like i get like i get you know no and hey you're gonna have your own tv show i'm gonna be rich no not anymore no you still still have to go out to acme in minneapolis and do a weekend

00:11:29Guest:Oh, but I'm an exec producer of a TV show.

00:11:32Guest:Yeah, I know.

00:11:32Marc:It's six.

00:11:33Marc:Yeah, that says that right at the end of the show.

00:11:36Guest:I can have a comedy special.

00:11:36Guest:No, actually, no.

00:11:37Guest:But you should plug the MC's comedy special because he did get one earlier.

00:11:44Guest:Oh, you'll have a comedy.

00:11:45Marc:I have many of them.

00:11:46Marc:I know.

00:11:47Marc:You'll have another one.

00:11:48Marc:But what I found is- How do you feel about this moment where I did the comedy special with Netflix and it was good.

00:11:52Marc:I was glad that I got the opportunity.

00:11:55Marc:Sure, yeah.

00:11:56Marc:But then you hear about Seinfeld, Chris Rock, and Louis.

00:12:00Marc:They just gave Jerry Seinfeld a half a billion dollars.

00:12:03Marc:Thank God.

00:12:04Marc:Because I was worried.

00:12:05Marc:If anybody needed it.

00:12:06Marc:I was worried.

00:12:07Marc:It's not, I'm not even jealous, but it's sort of like, can you give me like maybe, maybe like 5%?

00:12:13Marc:Yeah.

00:12:14Marc:Yeah.

00:12:15Marc:I'm not complaining, but if you're throwing money away.

00:12:18Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:12:19Guest:I'll take a little.

00:12:20Guest:No, I was, you know, I, they were, it was one of those things where I was going to tape it and then I was going to do it with a company that I did my last special with.

00:12:30Guest:And then there were the dates were confused and then they were like, well, we can only do it on this date.

00:12:35Guest:And I was getting ready to go into production on season two of the show.

00:12:38Guest:And I, you know, you can feel the material ripening and reaching putrescence.

00:12:45Guest:Sure.

00:12:45Guest:And then you feel it dying.

00:12:46Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:12:47Guest:And I was looking at a necrotic set list, as they call it.

00:12:52Guest:And I really wanted to get it down.

00:12:55Guest:And I have a really great agent at William Morris named Silvio Lund, who's really a terrific guy.

00:13:01Guest:And he goes, let's just do an album.

00:13:02Guest:And he called up this record company.

00:13:04Guest:bam nailed it and and got it in and i do find that the audio lives longer than the video yeah i think so people listen to comedy on the radio they listen to comedy on their phone i it's rare that they will sit down and watch a special again that's true

00:13:21Marc:That's true.

00:13:22Guest:But I will watch... Because it's passive.

00:13:24Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:13:25Guest:But I'll listen to, especially again... I'll listen to comedy records I've heard before.

00:13:30Guest:I listen to... Because now, you know, you have that done and then you're getting ready to go back out on the road and you've got to frantically... Get new shit.

00:13:40Guest:Get new shit, yeah.

00:13:41Guest:I mean, I'm not...

00:13:42Guest:I don't believe it has to be 100% new, but it should be.

00:13:46Guest:Do you really not believe that?

00:13:47Guest:Or are you just telling yourself that?

00:13:49Guest:No, I really do.

00:13:50Guest:But I'm much lower than the percentage that it should be.

00:13:53Guest:I think people want to hear one or two things.

00:13:55Marc:I want to believe that.

00:13:57Marc:I don't know.

00:13:58Marc:Because I think you and I are similar in that.

00:14:00Marc:Whoever's judging that, whoever's saying, this is a shit from the record.

00:14:05Marc:Whoever's saying that, usually we make them up.

00:14:08Marc:Yeah.

00:14:08Guest:Well, no, there are a couple.

00:14:10Guest:You always get that, 20% of the stuff is new.

00:14:14Guest:Yeah, but why do we listen to that guy?

00:14:17Guest:Because he's the guy that hates us as much as we do.

00:14:20Guest:That's why.

00:14:21Guest:No, he's just a little disappointed.

00:14:23Guest:Sorry, it's just the way we are with us.

00:14:25Guest:Just a little disappointed.

00:14:26Guest:Almost got it, but not quite, right?

00:14:29Guest:But I probably saw George Carlin, I don't know.

00:14:33Guest:a dozen times in my life and i would always love it when it was like oh well he's gonna do baseball and football great this is and you go to this is great listen to this i still enjoy it sure i i listen to i like hearing beats like you know there's because this music it's it's a form of music it's a form of music like when you know like i you know who i can listen to over and over again if it comes up because i got the uh shuffle going i'm like if if schimmel comes up i'm like oh

00:14:59Marc:Because, like, he was such a master of this very specific type of timing.

00:15:04Marc:You know, this kind of, like, morose Jewish.

00:15:07Guest:You know who it's?

00:15:09Guest:He's descended from Jackie Vernon.

00:15:10Marc:Jackie Vernon.

00:15:11Guest:Yeah.

00:15:12Guest:Good pull.

00:15:14Guest:Well, he told me.

00:15:15Guest:Oh, and you know who else was heavily influenced by Jackie Vernon?

00:15:18Marc:Let me guess.

00:15:18Marc:Who?

00:15:19Marc:Stephen Wright.

00:15:19Marc:sure that makes a lot of sense yeah i love jackie vernon yeah jackie vernon was amazing it's great i saw he was the guy i saw my parents took me to see him when i was like 11. oh my god where that's what changed me because i saw him on tv do the slideshow and then he came to albuquerque and i saw it in the paper and out in albuquerque it was a lounge in the hilton hotel and my parents took me that's to see him and that was what you know i was like that's when i knew but what if he opened with him so i'm taking a shit yeah

00:15:47Marc:They would have been fine.

00:15:48Marc:But we were close enough just to see like, you know, he's old and he's like, you saw all of it.

00:15:54Marc:All of show business.

00:15:55Marc:And I was not afraid.

00:15:57Marc:I was like, this is still good.

00:15:58Marc:It's good.

00:15:59Guest:I had this conversation with somebody the other day.

00:16:01Guest:This is really, really interesting.

00:16:02Guest:I was talking about how much I love Rickles.

00:16:04Guest:Yeah.

00:16:05Guest:And I was talking to a younger comic.

00:16:08Guest:Well, they're all younger.

00:16:09Guest:Yeah.

00:16:10Guest:And I was quoting some of his stuff.

00:16:12Guest:And this guy's like, oh, yeah, it's not so good.

00:16:14Guest:Because he's so unwoke.

00:16:19Guest:It has nothing to do with that.

00:16:23Guest:It's all music.

00:16:25Guest:And I love the beauty and the rhythm of the music.

00:16:28Guest:And I remember seeing him...

00:16:30Guest:Sometimes he said things that didn't even make sense.

00:16:33Guest:No, I will give you a beautiful example.

00:16:36Guest:I was with your friend and mine, Rob Cohen, at the Desert Inn.

00:16:40Guest:And they had just had a giant renovation of the Desert Inn.

00:16:43Guest:And it was sweltering in the showroom.

00:16:46Guest:And he goes, I got a $40 million renovation.

00:16:48Guest:They got a great air conditioning system.

00:16:49Guest:Two fags on the roof with a piece of loose leaf paper going, fah.

00:16:54Ha, ha, ha.

00:16:54Marc:What does that even mean?

00:16:56Guest:It doesn't mean a goddamn thing.

00:16:59Guest:He could have said tortoises.

00:17:00Guest:He needed one syllable.

00:17:02Guest:He could have said bears.

00:17:04Guest:I'm not laughing because I'm straight and therefore I'm exerting my heterosexual privilege in a derogatory way.

00:17:12Guest:No, he says... That's what I'm laughing at.

00:17:16Marc:But the weird thing is that if you listen to someone like Schimmel,

00:17:20Marc:who is usually the victim of his own jokes.

00:17:24Marc:Yes, and in life, had the life of fucking Job.

00:17:27Marc:Yeah, and then the political, whatever is politically incorrect about it, it's self-directed.

00:17:35Marc:Self-directed, right.

00:17:36Marc:He's the victim of every joke.

00:17:38Marc:Every joke has a victim, and in Schimmel's act, it was him.

00:17:41Marc:Yeah, and somehow that can elevate.

00:17:43Marc:I agree.

00:17:44Marc:I agree.

00:17:45Marc:Yeah, I don't know if I've had these discussions, but for some reason, I'm just able to separate.

00:17:50Marc:I don't know that revisionism is necessary just because times change in terms of what you feel personally attached to or what you like.

00:18:00Marc:Yeah, I don't know.

00:18:01Marc:Cosby's a little difficult, but I can still make- As is Woody Allen for me.

00:18:04Marc:Yeah, but I can still- But do we delete all that stuff?

00:18:08Marc:Do we delete our emotional connection to it?

00:18:11Guest:Right.

00:18:12Guest:I don't see how that's possible.

00:18:13Guest:Exactly.

00:18:14Guest:And it's like my love of- Do we condemn?

00:18:16Guest:My love of Hitler's paintings.

00:18:18Marc:I have to separate.

00:18:19Marc:You have that book too?

00:18:20Guest:It's just terrific.

00:18:22Marc:I have to separate.

00:18:23Marc:I have the coffee table book inside.

00:18:25Marc:Yeah.

00:18:26Marc:It's just called Hitler's paintings.

00:18:27Guest:A lot of angles.

00:18:28Guest:A lot of hard angles.

00:18:28Guest:Not a lot of people, but a lot of beautiful buildings.

00:18:31Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:18:31Marc:But I used to do a joke about that.

00:18:32Marc:It's like, well, you know, Hitler was a vegetarian.

00:18:36Yeah.

00:18:39Guest:you know but but but yeah there's and i think i also and a lot of it is just being nostalgia nostalgia for being to being a kid like watching rickles on the dean martin roast and everybody it's a totally different school of show business than you and i grew up with gulfway told me a story that when he worked with rickles rickles would would just roast him all day and then afterwards would pull him aside now are you upset are you smart with your money do you

00:19:04Guest:He was a very caring, loving kid.

00:19:07Marc:That's what my grandmother said.

00:19:08Marc:She'd go see him in Vegas and he'd shit on everybody, but she put it like this.

00:19:13Marc:He apologizes very nicely.

00:19:14Guest:But the only thing with Bob that he couldn't understand is that he wore jeans on stage.

00:19:20Guest:He's like, Bob, you can't.

00:19:21Guest:You have to dress nicely.

00:19:22Guest:And that's the thing that broke for that generation.

00:19:26Guest:These kids.

00:19:28Guest:They wear t-shirts and jeans.

00:19:30Marc:But that was Carlin, the kid he's talking about.

00:19:32Guest:Right.

00:19:32Guest:But what I'm saying is in that era.

00:19:33Guest:Right.

00:19:34Guest:And for us, I think it's like we understand that he can say fag or he can say whatever and it doesn't have any meaning.

00:19:43Marc:Well, he's ultimately got to shoulder that.

00:19:45Marc:And if it's going to, you know, like you can attack me for, you know, still respecting somebody who has not updated his arsenal.

00:19:53Guest:And that's a valid point that you do have to update.

00:19:56Guest:And he didn't.

00:19:57Guest:Honestly, he didn't need it.

00:19:59Guest:I was watching him.

00:20:00Guest:I went down a Jerry Lewis rabbit hole when he died.

00:20:02Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:20:03Guest:And I was watching the Jerry Lewis roast from 1968.

00:20:06Guest:Rickles was on it.

00:20:08Marc:Uh-huh.

00:20:08Marc:The two things that- But that's a friar's roast.

00:20:10Marc:That's not even the- Right.

00:20:11Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:20:12Guest:The one, the first one that killed me was just like, Jerry, I say this from the bottom of my heart.

00:20:17Guest:Jerry, you're a Jew.

00:20:19Guest:It's just like- All right, yeah.

00:20:21Guest:But the other one was, didn't he go, you know, Jerry's a clown and there were a lot of great clowns.

00:20:25Guest:Emmett Kelly-

00:20:26Guest:That's about it.

00:20:31Marc:LAUGHTER When he came up, I don't remember who he was roasting.

00:20:35Marc:It was one of the D. Martin ones and James Stewart was on the dais, right?

00:20:40Marc:And he goes, Jimmy, I spoke to the family, you're doing fine.

00:20:43LAUGHTER

00:20:46Guest:There was one where he was on, it was his last Carson appearance.

00:20:51Guest:It was his last Carson appearance because Johnny was retiring, and then he made Johnny laugh so hard Johnny got into a coughing fit.

00:20:57Guest:Yeah.

00:20:58Guest:Careful, John.

00:20:59Guest:Every time you cough, Leno's at home high-fiving the wife.

00:21:03Marc:Oh, good one.

00:21:04Marc:I love when he got mean, like when it was like, that's a real shit.

00:21:09Marc:Have you seen that one where they built him a club filled with just celebrities?

00:21:14Marc:The Dean Martin?

00:21:15Marc:There's a Dean Martin roast.

00:21:16Marc:It might have been the Dean Martin show where they wanted to recreate a live Rickles show.

00:21:21Marc:I have it because I signed up for the goddamn...

00:21:23Marc:Yeah, the Dean Martin Rose thing.

00:21:25Marc:Yeah, and they never stopped coming.

00:21:26Marc:I had no idea there were so many.

00:21:27Marc:But there was one that came.

00:21:28Marc:It might have been the Dean Martin show.

00:21:30Marc:But they set up a club.

00:21:32Marc:They made it on a soundstage.

00:21:33Marc:And they had people like Pat Boone in the audience, all the celebrities, Ricardo Maltabon.

00:21:37Marc:Like, it was probably 1970, early 70s, mid-70s.

00:21:41Marc:And Rickles just went up and did his club act and insulted everybody.

00:21:45Guest:Yeah, it was great.

00:21:46Marc:It was great.

00:21:47Guest:He's just sweating.

00:21:48Guest:In mid-70s, when the American flag had wide lapels.

00:21:52Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:21:52Marc:He wore an ugly jacket.

00:21:53Marc:I know it's an interesting question, though, about because I had this moment where, you know, being a comic as long as we have, you know, you and I are old guys already.

00:22:03Guest:Yeah.

00:22:03Guest:And by the way, just I am fully aware before anybody jumps down my throat.

00:22:07Marc:Yeah.

00:22:08Guest:About Don Rickles and whatever.

00:22:09Guest:Yeah.

00:22:10Guest:I know I'm I'm I'm done.

00:22:13Guest:I'm in I'm with this is not what is contemporary.

00:22:16Guest:This is my view of it.

00:22:17Guest:Pete Townsend was talking about that John Entwistle used to bitch about rap.

00:22:22Guest:Yeah.

00:22:22Guest:That he didn't get it.

00:22:23Guest:Yeah.

00:22:23Guest:And he said, it's not our job to get it.

00:22:25Guest:It's our job to get out of the way.

00:22:29Guest:Right.

00:22:29Guest:And I'm aware of that.

00:22:30Marc:Yeah.

00:22:30Marc:Yeah, I get it.

00:22:31Marc:I get it.

00:22:31Marc:Yeah.

00:22:32Marc:Well, no, I mean, I, you know, I can, it becomes difficult depending on what the transgression is.

00:22:38Marc:to stay supportive.

00:22:41Marc:You don't have to be supportive of somebody.

00:22:43Marc:You can condemn somebody, and you think somebody's awful, but still say, like, that second record, though.

00:22:49Marc:Sure.

00:22:50Guest:And somebody said a really smart thing.

00:22:52Guest:Do you know Marcella Arguello?

00:22:54Guest:Uh-uh.

00:22:54Guest:new comic really really funny really funny and really smart and somebody was you know bashing some unwoke person who then apologized for it and and she said you know you have to let people make their mistakes and grow in public you kind of let have to you have to let people grow yeah you can't just like you know you know uh terrorize them into some sort of cultural siberia

00:23:17Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:23:17Guest:And the, you know, my last special, the one before this one, I had a whole thing at the end about the R word and how it's now equated with the C word and the N word.

00:23:32Marc:I tried to do one of those bits, yeah.

00:23:34Guest:Yeah, and...

00:23:36Guest:I wouldn't.

00:23:37Guest:And I did.

00:23:37Guest:I mean, the bit was about the strictly the nomenclature of equating that word with the N word and the C word.

00:23:45Marc:Oh, it was actually addressing the that that whole thing.

00:23:49Marc:Yeah.

00:23:49Marc:It wasn't about like, I don't use it that way.

00:23:52Guest:no because then i did use it you know i you know i said i would never do this and then i did i cheated all over the place and i you know i i said it and i said the n word and the c word too um and i say them now with relish no at home it's how i mutter myself to sleep but what happened i wouldn't i would nothing happened but i wouldn't have done i wouldn't do it today

00:24:13Marc:I did a bit about it, about defending the use of it in a sense of like in a nostalgic way.

00:24:26Marc:You know what I mean?

00:24:27Marc:I grew up with that.

00:24:28Marc:Yeah.

00:24:28Marc:Right.

00:24:29Marc:But then I got someone, I think it was an email that just said, I'm the parent.

00:24:36Marc:And then that was it.

00:24:37Marc:And then I had a couple of slips, but eventually I got a handle on it.

00:24:42Guest:I did it, and then I met John McGinley.

00:24:47Guest:who's very on the forefront of all those issues.

00:24:54Guest:And it becomes real.

00:24:58Guest:And it's not about First Amendment.

00:25:00Guest:It's about, oh, these people have...

00:25:02Guest:Feelings and their yeah, and their lives you go.

00:25:05Guest:Oh, yeah, okay.

00:25:05Guest:I guess that's the thing.

00:25:06Marc:Hey, how attached are you to that?

00:25:09Marc:Do you really need it?

00:25:10Marc:The freedom of using that word?

00:25:11Marc:It's not no one's censoring anybody.

00:25:14Marc:It's like you're hurting people's feelings and it's already hard for them.

00:25:17Marc:exactly yeah that's brilliant yeah it's like yeah they have a rough enough time and you and you can and that is true like you can say that with rickles talking about sure fags on the roof they have enough they have enough they have enough trouble i my my feelings about that are like you say whatever you want but you shoulder the you're gonna have to take take the burn yeah take the burn and then handle it

00:25:37Guest:um what uh what's this new uh the new season stand against evil what's it did you finish it it's all done yeah we finished it it premieres november 1st on uh on ifc how is it different uh it takes this story uh it takes the story further the premise of the story uh is the whole idea of the show is was quite simple yeah um i love horror movies they're my football um

00:26:00Guest:So I just thought, what if I did a horror movie but put a character in the middle of it that didn't belong there?

00:26:06Marc:Yeah.

00:26:07Guest:And it was basically, what if my dad was in a horror movie?

00:26:09Marc:Because he wouldn't give a shit.

00:26:10Marc:And he doesn't know.

00:26:12Guest:No, he does know.

00:26:13Guest:He doesn't give a fuck.

00:26:14Guest:Right.

00:26:15Guest:And we used to make that joke.

00:26:17Guest:If you remember the end of King Kong when he's on the building and the planes are flying around, my brothers and I used to joke that if our dad was in one of those planes that he would fly out of formation, check the score in the baseball game, come back, shoot a little bit more, go back.

00:26:30Guest:And I just thought it would be interesting if like, what if instead of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, it was just an old Irish guy that didn't give a shit.

00:26:37Guest:And that was the premise.

00:26:40Guest:And I didn't, my mother is still alive, but his wife, who would have been my mother, dies before the show starts.

00:26:51Guest:And because I needed him to have a giant vulnerability or he's just an asshole.

00:26:56Guest:Okay, yeah.

00:26:57Guest:Then what John McGinley did with that

00:27:00Guest:was created this amazingly nuanced character.

00:27:05Guest:He's a good actor, huh?

00:27:06Guest:He's a real actor.

00:27:07Marc:He's been around for a long time.

00:27:08Marc:Yeah, he's not fucking around.

00:27:09Marc:He doesn't seem to age much either, does he?

00:27:11Guest:No, he lives at the gym.

00:27:13Guest:I mean, his arms are... Yeah.

00:27:15Guest:And I say this knowing he's listening to it.

00:27:17Guest:His arms are terrifying.

00:27:19Guest:Yeah.

00:27:19Guest:No, he's in Crazy.

00:27:21Guest:He's like an old Irish boxer from like a poster from the 1800s.

00:27:24Guest:But he was like in Platoon, wasn't he?

00:27:25Marc:Yes, he was.

00:27:25Guest:He was in like five Oliver Stone movies.

00:27:27Guest:He was in Wall Street.

00:27:27Guest:He was in Platoon.

00:27:28Guest:He was in Any Given Sunday.

00:27:30Guest:But he's built like an old Irish boxer.

00:27:31Guest:He's all upper body.

00:27:34Guest:But he gave this character so much more than I had given it on the page.

00:27:40Guest:And I have to also give Janet Varney amazing kudos for the way she balances him, the ballast that she is such a strong actress.

00:27:54Guest:But because John had done so much of this work that for the second season, I had to write up to him.

00:28:00Guest:So I developed a whole arc of a storyline where there's a time travel element where he's going to try to go back and save his wife's life.

00:28:08Marc:Oh, wow.

00:28:09Guest:And as has always happens, makes things much worse.

00:28:12Marc:Oh, good.

00:28:13Marc:And that's the arc this season?

00:28:14Marc:That's the arc this season, yeah.

00:28:15Marc:And what's the name of the record?

00:28:17Marc:The CD?

00:28:17Marc:The digital?

00:28:19Guest:I call it a record because I don't know what else to call it.

00:28:22Guest:What's the name of my download?

00:28:23Guest:Because my download sounds vaguely filthy.

00:28:27Guest:Yeah.

00:28:28Guest:Mr. Funny Man.

00:28:29Guest:and this is what what do you catch on huh do you count how many you've done how many records how many specials uh i have the worst i proudly have the worst album titles uh funhouse is fine yeah but it's an icky pop album and his version his album is much better yeah uh let me put my thoughts in you i know it's wrong which is okay and this is mr funny man

00:28:50Marc:it's good well i mean the bigger problem is really the artwork generally yes is it like looking at you look at almost any comedy record and you know somebody was like what was i thinking yeah almost every comedy record well it's every comedian gets to be a rock star for that that one day where you get to look figure out your album cover yeah um i did i did all right like you know in retrospect i don't have any stupid ones

00:29:16Marc:and the last you know the last don't try to be funny on your cover exactly don't try to be funny on your cover that's it that's it or in your quad split headshot oh yeah the worst people from boston we both know yeah yeah yeah oh yeah what were there different panels like in different hats and yeah i can't say it on the air but i'll tell you what we're done

00:29:36Marc:Pauly Shore had one of those.

00:29:38Marc:I remember seeing it at the comedy store.

00:29:39Guest:I like how if they wear different hats, I know they can play different jobs.

00:29:42Guest:You can be a fireman and a chef.

00:29:44Marc:Is it Frankie Face?

00:29:45Marc:Who is it?

00:29:46Marc:I can't.

00:29:47Guest:I can't.

00:29:47Marc:All right.

00:29:48Marc:All right.

00:29:49Marc:Well, good.

00:29:49Guest:Well, it's good talking to you, man.

00:29:54Guest:Great to see you.

00:29:58Marc:Dana Gould.

00:30:00Marc:The great Dana Gould.

00:30:01Marc:So, Lizzie Goodman, who I'm going to be talking to next in just a second, she was very good friends with Mark Spitz, the late Mark Spitz.

00:30:13Marc:They dated years ago, and Mark Spitz was a...

00:30:16Marc:a great writer in his own right, a music writer, and wrote a great memoir.

00:30:19Marc:And he was on this show.

00:30:21Marc:And because he passed not too long ago, you can still listen to that episode in the free feed if you'd like.

00:30:29Marc:It was a great episode.

00:30:30Marc:It was very personal, very engaged, and we miss old Marky.

00:30:33Marc:We miss him.

00:30:34Marc:So Lizzie Goodman...

00:30:36Marc:The writer is my guest, and I met her with Mark once, but she put me in her book, and we talked about it when she was writing it.

00:30:48Marc:Then she sent me the galley, and I didn't quite get to it.

00:30:51Marc:Then she sent me the real book, and honestly, I just skimmed it, looked at my part, but I have very little recollection of

00:30:59Marc:I talked to her about this, but whatever was happening in rock and roll from 2001 to 2011, I got to tell you, I think I missed most of it.

00:31:08Marc:I don't know what I was doing.

00:31:09Marc:I don't know where I was.

00:31:10Marc:I mean, the last time I knew I was really locked in,

00:31:15Marc:to rock and roll happening in real time was probably in the late 80s.

00:31:20Marc:And then I went away.

00:31:23Marc:I don't know where I went, but I wasn't locked in.

00:31:27Marc:I'm locked back in, but the 2001 to 2011, I was just a struggling comic trying to figure it out.

00:31:38Marc:I got sober.

00:31:40Marc:I guess it was right after I got sober.

00:31:41Marc:That might have something to do with it.

00:31:42Marc:But I just wasn't keyed in to the New York music scene.

00:31:46Marc:I was just keyed into the comedy scene.

00:31:47Marc:There was some crossover.

00:31:48Marc:We hammer it out.

00:31:51Marc:Lizzie and I hammer it out.

00:31:53Marc:And I like talking to her.

00:31:54Marc:The book is called Meet Me in the Bathroom, Rebirth and Rock and Roll in New York City, 2001 to 2011, which apparently are my lost years.

00:32:02Marc:But that's not true.

00:32:03Marc:I did...

00:32:04Marc:I did radio, did Air America.

00:32:06Marc:I got divorced.

00:32:08Marc:Did I get married?

00:32:10Marc:I got married and divorced in those years.

00:32:12Marc:That would have something to do with it.

00:32:13Marc:So I was listening to music, but it was like 12 to 15 songs that I put on a fucking mix after my wife left me.

00:32:22Marc:A lot of that.

00:32:24Marc:A lot of those 12 to 15 songs.

00:32:26Marc:If you need a heartbreak mix, I got one.

00:32:31Marc:How long have you been in LA?

00:32:39Guest:I have a real problem here.

00:32:40Marc:Really?

00:32:41Guest:Yeah, I've been here three days.

00:32:43Marc:Were you frazzled?

00:32:43Marc:You know how to drive?

00:32:44Marc:Did you drive?

00:32:45Marc:Did you Uber?

00:32:45Guest:I know how to drive.

00:32:46Marc:Did you drive here?

00:32:47Guest:I'm from New Mexico.

00:32:48Guest:I know how to drive.

00:32:48Marc:That's right.

00:32:49Marc:We grew up.

00:32:49Marc:You're friends with... I always forget that.

00:32:51Marc:I want to go.

00:32:52Marc:I'm going.

00:32:53Guest:You should.

00:32:55Guest:I think that's a great idea.

00:32:56Guest:It's great there.

00:32:57Marc:How long did you stay in New Mexico?

00:32:59Guest:Till like 14 seconds after I graduated from high school.

00:33:03Marc:Which high school?

00:33:04Guest:Albuquerque Academy.

00:33:06Marc:You didn't tell me all this.

00:33:08Guest:No, probably not.

00:33:09Guest:I don't know.

00:33:09Marc:You went to the Academy?

00:33:10Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:33:11Guest:How old are you?

00:33:12Guest:I'm 37.

00:33:14Guest:I'm 25.

00:33:15Guest:I don't know.

00:33:16Guest:I just had a birthday and I realized that I've been telling people my old age for at least the last couple of weeks because I forgot.

00:33:24Marc:I'm 37.

00:33:25Guest:I was born in 1980.

00:33:26Marc:What was your old age?

00:33:27Guest:36 as it turns out I thought you meant you had a go-to no no no I just I have this joke with my friend Rob Sheffield that my age is is 26 forever I have not really evolved past that I may I'm moving I think I might move I have to maybe come here a lot more now what's happening and so I'm thinking oh don't just drop that I will but one of my biggest I've been thinking about where I want to live for a long time yeah I mean it seems to be happening but yeah in what way

00:33:57Guest:But I will tell you, but just my biggest concern is that I'm going to miss winter.

00:34:02Guest:And one of my friends who's, I mean, half my friends live out here.

00:34:05Guest:And one of my friends who's lobbying, been lobbying me for an LA move for a long time was just suggested to me recently.

00:34:10Guest:And I never thought of this.

00:34:11Guest:Like you go to New Mexico for winter, go have winter in New Mexico.

00:34:15Marc:So how do you just go have a mild winter?

00:34:17Guest:Well, I mean, it's cold.

00:34:19Guest:It's not New York cold.

00:34:20Guest:I live in upstate New York right now.

00:34:22Guest:Oh my God.

00:34:23Guest:Where?

00:34:24Guest:High Falls, New York.

00:34:25Guest:It's,

00:34:26Guest:What are you doing up there?

00:34:26Guest:I was finishing a book.

00:34:29Marc:This book?

00:34:29Marc:Yeah.

00:34:30Marc:No, a different one.

00:34:31Marc:The one I'm avoiding talking about?

00:34:33Guest:The one you're avoiding talking about, because you probably hate it, which is fine.

00:34:37Guest:Hate is not the word.

00:34:39Marc:Disagree with?

00:34:40Marc:No, it's not even a disagreement thing.

00:34:42Marc:I missed it.

00:34:44Marc:Of course.

00:34:45Marc:I missed this.

00:34:46Marc:It's called The Rebirth in Rock and Roll in New York City, 2001 to 2011.

00:34:51Marc:I know none of the bands in here, really.

00:34:54Yeah.

00:34:54Guest:Would you like some help?

00:34:56Marc:Well, that's what we're going to do, but we're not done yet.

00:34:58Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:35:00Marc:So, yeah, I like the idea of spending the casual winters in New Mexico where it's pretty.

00:35:04Guest:Pinion fire, some parkas.

00:35:06Marc:White snow.

00:35:08Marc:Yeah.

00:35:08Marc:Luminarios.

00:35:10Guest:The luminaria vibe in Corrales is awesome.

00:35:13Guest:When you get your house there.

00:35:13Marc:Everyone's doing the lights now, though.

00:35:15Marc:No one does the candles anymore.

00:35:16Marc:You can't go set them on fire.

00:35:18Marc:Oh, good.

00:35:18Guest:They 100% do.

00:35:19Guest:It's the real thing.

00:35:20Marc:All right.

00:35:21Marc:Some people still do the real thing.

00:35:22Guest:It's a very traditional place, Corrales, New Mexico.

00:35:24Marc:What do you think about living here?

00:35:27Guest:I'm not admitting that I'm thinking about living there, but no, I don't like cool people.

00:35:32Guest:I don't like them.

00:35:34Guest:I don't want to be near them.

00:35:35Guest:Like I don't, wherever the Williamsburg of LA is, I don't want any part of that.

00:35:38Marc:There's no Williamsburg of LA.

00:35:39Guest:Thank God.

00:35:40Marc:It's not because here it's like block to block, you know, Williamsburg.

00:35:43Marc:I don't know.

00:35:44Marc:It's different here.

00:35:45Guest:I mean, I want to live by the beach, but everyone says that you can't live by the beach because you'll, you know, fall off the face of the earth or something.

00:35:52Marc:Why is show business courting you?

00:35:54Guest:Because of the book.

00:35:56Marc:Oh, really?

00:35:56Guest:Yeah.

00:35:57Guest:Mark's like, oh, that didn't even occur to me.

00:36:01Guest:What an awful idea.

00:36:03Guest:I have to tell you something important, which is going to disturb you, but some people like it.

00:36:08Marc:No, no, I know.

00:36:10Marc:People love it, and I understand that.

00:36:11Marc:I'm not being condescending.

00:36:12Guest:Yeah, for a TV show.

00:36:13Guest:No, I know you're not.

00:36:14Guest:I'm totally teasing you.

00:36:15Guest:That's funny.

00:36:15Marc:This book is about a period where you could actually get most of the people to play themselves as their younger selves, and it'd be pretty close.

00:36:22Guest:Pretty close.

00:36:22Guest:Yeah, it is very recent.

00:36:24Guest:No, it's going to be, there's like documentary and narrative, like fictional adaptation series ideas.

00:36:32Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:36:32Guest:That's great.

00:36:33Guest:I'm excited about it.

00:36:34Guest:I mean, I want to do more of that stuff anyway and always have or have in the last few years.

00:36:39Guest:And so it's like fun to think about.

00:36:40Guest:how to make, I mean, people, I've just felt really gratified by the kinds of ideas that have been, you know, because I was skeptical about the whole Hollywood thing, but so far, the people that I think we're gonna be working with are awesome.

00:36:53Marc:Well, how'd you start out?

00:36:54Marc:Where'd you end up?

00:36:55Marc:You went to the academy, you graduated, you got brothers and sisters?

00:36:57Guest:Yeah, I got a younger brother, Jake.

00:36:59Marc:That's a good name.

00:37:00Guest:Yeah, he's good.

00:37:01Guest:He lives in Nigeria.

00:37:02Marc:Really?

00:37:03Guest:He's a foreign service officer.

00:37:04Guest:He's a diplomat.

00:37:05Marc:Oh, good for him.

00:37:06Guest:Yeah, I know.

00:37:07Marc:The State Department didn't cut him loose yet?

00:37:08Guest:No, no, not yet.

00:37:11Marc:That's good.

00:37:12Marc:Maybe in Nigeria, they're sort of like, let the guy stay in Nigeria.

00:37:15Guest:He just got there.

00:37:16Guest:He just got there.

00:37:18Guest:And it's funny, we're talking about luminaries.

00:37:20Guest:He's going to have luminaries or something.

00:37:23Guest:He's getting married in December in England, in London, and he's going to have all this New Mexican stuff.

00:37:28Guest:We've been talking a lot about bringing the New Mexico Christmas vibe to London.

00:37:35Marc:Oh, that's nice.

00:37:35Marc:Yeah.

00:37:36Marc:So, but where'd you go to college after you ran away?

00:37:39Guest:I went to Philadelphia.

00:37:40Guest:I mean, I wanted to be on the East Coast like right away.

00:37:43Guest:Yeah.

00:37:44Guest:I was all about New York.

00:37:46Guest:I was obsessed with New York and with the idea of like Eastern urban magic.

00:37:52Marc:Yeah, you'd get that.

00:37:53Marc:When you grow up in a smart household in New Mexico, you're like, I want to go to where it really happened.

00:37:58Marc:Yes.

00:37:58Marc:I like all this cowboy.

00:38:00Guest:Yeah, cute.

00:38:01Marc:Cowboy intellectual shit.

00:38:03Yeah.

00:38:03Guest:That's exactly how I felt.

00:38:05Guest:I mean, it is disturbing to be talking to you about this because there's basically no one who gets out of New Mexico.

00:38:09Guest:So those of us who do all have the same kind of like core spirit about that.

00:38:13Guest:People go back.

00:38:14Guest:They go back.

00:38:15Guest:Oh, tons, tons.

00:38:18Guest:Yeah.

00:38:18Guest:I mean, you're going back.

00:38:19Marc:Not yet.

00:38:21Marc:I've been thinking about it though.

00:38:22Marc:It's drawing me back.

00:38:23Guest:I think about it too.

00:38:24Marc:The way of life.

00:38:25Guest:Yeah.

00:38:25Guest:like me too like i don't like i i don't i'm done with new york i'm almost done with la where else am i gonna go this is how i feel you say i'm too young to feel this way this is literally the conversation i've been having while i'm here i'm like i will always feel like i live in new york but i don't need to live there anymore and so therefore where do i feel good well that's only corrales exactly oh jesus like literally only corrales i'm starting to feel that

00:38:51Guest:It's the only place.

00:38:53Marc:For me, it's not quite Corrales, but I always romanticize Corrales, but I'm a couple miles away.

00:38:57Marc:I'm very close to Corrales.

00:39:01Marc:All right, so you go to Penn and study what?

00:39:04Guest:English and classics.

00:39:07Marc:And the plan was to be a writer?

00:39:09Guest:No.

00:39:10Guest:What a crazy idea.

00:39:11Guest:What idiot would do that?

00:39:13Guest:You can't be a writer.

00:39:14Marc:What was the plan to go to New York and what?

00:39:16Marc:Just like hang out?

00:39:17Guest:No, the plan was to... You know, I was 18.

00:39:20Guest:I didn't have a... I had a homing...

00:39:23Guest:instinct not a plan it was like i'm gonna come to college because you have to go to college and like i'll go as close to new york as i can go and i was really a good student and i cared about being a good student and i loved school and i had a great time at penn but no the plan what it what happened was and this is the right call like i now understand this in a way that i can articulate and didn't at the time but i advocate for it it's like i had to put myself near stuff that would

00:39:51Guest:So I could be in a position to have what should happen next revealed to me.

00:39:55Guest:You know what I mean?

00:39:56Guest:Like that's what New York is.

00:39:57Guest:It's a notion, you know, for me and, and for others that that's kind of what the book's about is that sense of, I don't know why I'm going here.

00:40:07Guest:I'm just going here because it seems something's telling me to do that.

00:40:11Guest:And I can't tell you why.

00:40:12Guest:And I may not even know right away or for years, but it's where my next myself is going to emerge.

00:40:19Guest:Right.

00:40:19Marc:Well, oddly, you know, it's because the place that New York holds in the cultural unconscious.

00:40:29Guest:Yes.

00:40:30Marc:For years, you know, at least since the 70s.

00:40:32Marc:Yeah.

00:40:33Marc:Especially if you're groovy, artistic, you know.

00:40:39Marc:Yeah.

00:40:39Marc:literary it's like it's looms large yeah it means something it means something it's an idea and and but there but still to this day there's nothing else like it I mean you you know you can that's why I can't live anywhere I'm like well but do you did you find always that like I was just in New York and for the first time in my life I went over to jazz at Lincoln Center as a 53 year old and it's always been there and I was there for for 15 years on and off and I did nothing you're like oh yeah hey

00:41:05Marc:Like all this stuff's available to me.

00:41:07Marc:Like people, like, did you go to the Museum of Modern Art?

00:41:09Marc:I did once, twice.

00:41:10Guest:Yeah, once twice.

00:41:12Marc:And now, like, I feel like I'm ready to do that stuff.

00:41:14Marc:And it's fortunate because now I understand New York pretty fucking well.

00:41:17Marc:I can get around.

00:41:18Marc:I know how to do it.

00:41:19Marc:So if I go in for three days, I'm like, is there a show we're going to see?

00:41:22Marc:All right, let's do it.

00:41:23Guest:But that's... Okay, that is exactly why my... I feel like my current relationship with New York is among the best that I've had, which is like when you leave, you are able to be a kind of... It's almost like the first 15 years are investing in understanding the place enough that you can become an informed tourist when you go there.

00:41:41Guest:So now I do that too.

00:41:42Guest:Like I go in from upstate...

00:41:44Guest:you know, every week or so, every 10 days.

00:41:46Guest:And I do three days of city stuff.

00:41:49Guest:I see all my friends.

00:41:50Guest:I go to restaurants.

00:41:51Guest:I do all these things that I had no energy to do because I was so relentlessly overstimulated by the time I left that I was like, I can't even like, I just want to hide.

00:42:01Guest:And so now there's this, the slate has been cleared and it's like, New York is fun again.

00:42:06Guest:But, but I don't ever feel when I was 19 and started coming to the city from Philly all the time, I felt like I,

00:42:13Guest:I needed it to kind of work on me in order to help me figure out how to become myself.

00:42:21Guest:And now I know how to be myself.

00:42:24Guest:How did it start?

00:42:24Marc:What year did you go there?

00:42:25Guest:1998, I moved to Philadelphia.

00:42:29Guest:And I was in school.

00:42:31Guest:My dad is a New Yorker.

00:42:32Guest:So my dad grew up in Stuyvesant Town.

00:42:34Guest:And my grandparents still lived there.

00:42:36Marc:I was on a waiting list there for a while.

00:42:38Marc:Who's going to get that apartment?

00:42:40Marc:Yeah.

00:42:40Marc:Come on.

00:42:41Guest:You.

00:42:41Marc:Tell me about your grandparent's apartment.

00:42:44Guest:Okay.

00:42:44Guest:Well, it has pink walls.

00:42:46Marc:Yeah, but who's getting that next?

00:42:48Guest:Ruth Goodman lives there.

00:42:49Guest:Yeah.

00:42:51Guest:She's, you know, she's... It's her place, man.

00:42:55Guest:Yeah.

00:42:55Guest:I mean, no one's... It's a rental.

00:42:57Guest:It's still like...

00:42:58Marc:I know.

00:42:58Marc:Rent controlled rental.

00:42:59Guest:It's a deeply rent controlled rental.

00:43:01Guest:Yeah.

00:43:01Guest:Your eyes are like glinting.

00:43:03Guest:Always a New Yorker.

00:43:06Guest:Always a New Yorker.

00:43:08Guest:Oh, you've got two bedrooms, two real big.

00:43:12Guest:What's the kitchen like?

00:43:13Marc:It's the last of the rent control.

00:43:15Guest:Listen, everything you're thinking is true.

00:43:17Guest:It's your fantasy come true.

00:43:18Guest:It's like the it's a big.

00:43:20Guest:No, it's not.

00:43:20Marc:You walk over there, you're like, this would be good.

00:43:24Marc:When I was there, the idea of rent control was like, I had rent stabilized, but that doesn't mean something.

00:43:29Guest:No, I had rent stabilized too, but they're like, it's not as brutal.

00:43:33Marc:So really, when you move to New York in earnest, this is when this book starts.

00:43:36Guest:Yeah.

00:43:37Guest:I mean, I started coming to the... Exactly.

00:43:39Guest:Like, I started coming to the city from Philly to see... Well, the story is... It's in the introduction to the book.

00:43:47Guest:It's basically like I moved to New York the first summer that I was in college.

00:43:51Guest:So after freshman year, I moved to the city.

00:43:55Guest:I lived in my grandparents' apartment.

00:43:56Guest:I worked at Sesame Street.

00:43:58Guest:Yeah.

00:43:59Guest:Yeah.

00:43:59Guest:And I got a job in a restaurant.

00:44:00Marc:You worked at Sesame Street?

00:44:01Guest:Yeah, I had an internship at Sesame Productions or whatever.

00:44:04Guest:It was a production company that produced Sesame Street.

00:44:07Guest:That was my internship.

00:44:08Marc:You were going for show business.

00:44:09Guest:I was not going.

00:44:10Guest:I was like, this is the justification for me being here.

00:44:13Marc:That's the one?

00:44:14Guest:Yeah.

00:44:14Guest:You picked Sesame Street?

00:44:15Guest:I didn't pick it.

00:44:16Guest:It was like available.

00:44:18Guest:And really, I was like, I need to go hang out in New York City.

00:44:22Marc:Did you see the trash can where Oscar lives?

00:44:24Guest:No, no, they never let me near it.

00:44:25Guest:It wasn't a it was like, I don't even remember what I did.

00:44:28Guest:I wasn't near actual Sesame Street.

00:44:30Guest:It was the production.

00:44:31Guest:It was, you know, it was a midtown office building that was over.

00:44:33Marc:You didn't go to the set?

00:44:34Marc:No, no.

00:44:36Marc:How could you work for Sesame Street and not go see where Oscar lived?

00:44:38Guest:Sesame Street's production company produces a lot of shows.

00:44:43Guest:Sesame Street is the crown jewel.

00:44:44Guest:I was a lowly intern.

00:44:45Guest:I love that you're acting like this was my choice.

00:44:48Guest:Yeah.

00:44:48Guest:One day they rolled in and they were like, do you want to go to the Sesame Street set?

00:44:51Guest:And I was like, nah, no, that's not how it happened.

00:44:53Guest:No one invited me.

00:44:56Guest:I was, I was.

00:44:57Marc:You didn't meet Ernie or Bert?

00:44:58Guest:I didn't.

00:44:59Guest:I wanted to meet Rock Boys, Mark.

00:45:02Guest:I did not care.

00:45:03Guest:Grover?

00:45:03Marc:No Grover?

00:45:04No.

00:45:04Guest:All right, Grover, I met.

00:45:06Marc:He hung out with me in the clubs.

00:45:08Guest:I took him to a stroke show.

00:45:12Guest:We were like, all right.

00:45:13Guest:Yeah, he taught me how to ride the subway.

00:45:15Marc:All right, so you're there, you're working at Sesame Street, not going to the set.

00:45:18Guest:Not doing all the things that I know I've disappointed you deeply.

00:45:21Guest:And just, I got a job in a restaurant because I needed to make money because I wasn't in school and I had to support, I had free rent, but I had to eat or whatever.

00:45:33Guest:By...

00:45:34Guest:clothes I guess whatever I cared about at that time records and so I got this job at this I got this job training to work at this restaurant across the street from Grand Central Station so they were opening any day now and they were hiring up staff and I got this job and

00:45:53Guest:Um, we, and of course it took much longer for them to open than they had anticipated.

00:45:57Guest:So they basically had hired this staff of kids, bored, hot city kids who went there every day for like four hours and got paid this lowly amount of money and did things like practiced waiting tables and learned the wine list and stuff like that.

00:46:11Guest:And my coworker was Nick Valencia, who was the guitarist in the strokes.

00:46:15Guest:And he was in this band, like with his friends called the strokes at that point.

00:46:20Marc:The portal opened and you're like,

00:46:22Guest:Hell no.

00:46:22Guest:I mean, no, it was years.

00:46:23Guest:That was 19.

00:46:25Guest:That was the summer of 99.

00:46:26Guest:And it was, I mean, it was a couple years before, like Albert, the other guitarist had not joined the band yet.

00:46:33Guest:They weren't, they, it was my friend Nick's like band.

00:46:36Guest:Nick, I was, Nick was like half-heartedly in college and,

00:46:39Guest:They were just city kids.

00:46:41Guest:And it was, I mean, the portal that opened that summer was not rock and roll.

00:46:45Guest:It was New York.

00:46:45Guest:It was like, oh, Nick was cool in that he grew up in the city and understood how to sort of like wander well.

00:46:54Guest:Yeah.

00:46:54Guest:And how to get into bars and how to do stuff.

00:46:58Guest:It was what I had been learning with training wheels in Philadelphia about as a New Mexico kid.

00:47:05Guest:How do you orient yourself in urban life and let these places kind of...

00:47:12Guest:you know wash over you and expose you to the things you're supposed to be exposed to how to get the rhythm down um and that like nick and i would just hang out after uh after pretending to wait tables and uh you know like wander around office parks and smoke weed and office park pillar you know behind office park pillars and sort of like just wander around midtown it wasn't and then sometimes i would go downtown to like saint mark's and

00:47:39Guest:sneak into bars and do stuff like that.

00:47:41Guest:But basically it was like, that was what was powerful about that summer.

00:47:43Guest:Yeah.

00:47:44Marc:But that summer was, that was when my marriage was falling apart.

00:47:48Guest:That was the other big thing that was happening for me.

00:47:50Marc:For you, yeah.

00:47:50Marc:You knew Marc Maron's marriage was falling apart and he was out in Astoria.

00:47:56Marc:And then he got thrown out of that house and he had to find a sublet.

00:48:00Marc:Way down on the lower side.

00:48:01Guest:You should have hung out with us instead.

00:48:03Guest:It was way chiller than what you were dealing with.

00:48:05Marc:I was trying to do comedy, doing one-man shows.

00:48:08Marc:I was at the Westbeth Theater.

00:48:10Guest:Oh, my God.

00:48:11Guest:The Westbeth.

00:48:11Marc:Yeah.

00:48:12Guest:Yeah.

00:48:12Guest:That became significant for me later.

00:48:14Guest:Really?

00:48:15Guest:Yeah.

00:48:15Guest:Because all the artists had their studios in there and still do.

00:48:18Guest:It's still... Oh, the area connected to it.

00:48:20Guest:Yes, right.

00:48:21Guest:The West Village became... Later, after I finally moved to the city in 2002, became my spot.

00:48:28Guest:Because I don't like coolness.

00:48:30Guest:I didn't like...

00:48:32Guest:I did not want to be on the Lower East Side or Alphabet City or those places.

00:48:36Marc:For me, when I moved there, I guess it was 89 the first time.

00:48:40Marc:And then I went back in 94.

00:48:42Marc:Yeah, I remember you saying that.

00:48:47Marc:Yeah.

00:48:47Marc:But, you know, and I talk a little bit in the book about what happened then.

00:48:53Marc:But it really wasn't.

00:48:54Marc:I was just a little weird historical artifact you put there.

00:48:58Marc:This guy from this guy from the generation before reflects on Giuliani for two minutes.

00:49:05Guest:Well, I needed that.

00:49:06Marc:I didn't mind.

00:49:07Marc:I thought I was well represented.

00:49:08Guest:Good.

00:49:08Guest:You were.

00:49:09Guest:I agree.

00:49:11Marc:So.

00:49:12Marc:All right.

00:49:12Marc:So.

00:49:13Marc:So this is all just before 9-11.

00:49:15Marc:Yeah.

00:49:16Marc:And, you know, you found your place on the west side where it's not hip with artists that are, you know.

00:49:21Guest:Well, no, I mean, I went back to Philly for like, so what I'm saying is that the, that's why it's, this is important about the book.

00:49:27Guest:It's not bands.

00:49:29Guest:Like I wanted to be a lawyer or something.

00:49:31Guest:I thought it was going to be a lawyer.

00:49:32Guest:I was a school kid, but I was pulled towards this sense of magic and mystery about New York city.

00:49:37Guest:That is the idea that we were already just talking about.

00:49:39Guest:And I didn't,

00:49:40Guest:Yeah, I loved writing, but I didn't work for my school newspaper.

00:49:43Guest:I didn't.

00:49:43Guest:It wasn't like what it was, was it was like I'm I was being drawn to some expression of culture that was related to my generation that I that had not happened yet.

00:49:54Guest:And I did not know that that's what I was being drawn to.

00:49:56Guest:But I during the next few years in the part before 9-11 where all these bands, Interpol, Yeah, Yeah, Yeahs.

00:50:03Guest:strokes and in you know white stripes and other places like around the world they're all the stories that converge in the book all of those people were feeling similar things like a scent they were this basically the same age as i was and feeling a kind of like i want to make something but i don't entirely know what it is and like the world is not really receptive for this kind of this kind of vibe it's not supposed to be about urban cool right now it's not supposed to be about notions of new york city what was it supposed to be about

00:50:33Guest:In the music industry, it was supposed to be about dance music in America in, you know, I mean, in England, it definitely was about dance music or it was about like post Brit pop stuff.

00:50:43Guest:I mean, and in my business, it was like, I mean, in the writing and what became my business, it was like it wasn't that exciting to imagine yourself as a rock journalist because there wasn't a lot of cool rock band.

00:50:54Marc:So that's right.

00:50:55Marc:It was sort of submerged in jam, jam, too, for a little while there.

00:50:59Guest:Right.

00:50:59Guest:I didn't think, oh, I'm going to be a music journalist.

00:51:02Guest:I thought there's something about the way it feels to wander around Manhattan at 4 p.m.

00:51:08Guest:on a really hot day in the summer where everyone rich has left.

00:51:11Guest:And that's making me feel like I'm getting somewhere.

00:51:15Guest:And I can't really tell you why.

00:51:17Guest:And so I went back to college and I studied and I kept in touch with Nick and a couple other people that I knew.

00:51:22Guest:And he would come and play shows.

00:51:24Guest:And then I would see in Philly and we would go see him.

00:51:26Guest:And I had friends in Philadelphia who were starting to like want to go to shows.

00:51:30Guest:So it was like it was a thing to do that had nothing for years.

00:51:34Guest:It was a thing to do that had nothing to do with aspiration of any kind.

00:51:37Guest:And that was really important.

00:51:38Marc:And it was also like traditional rock in a way coming back.

00:51:42Marc:It was not necessarily art rock, punk rock was sort of finished in a way.

00:51:48Marc:And I guess like I'm sort of, because like some of the bands in the book I was given, like for some reason at that time when I was there in late 90s and then like I had left by 2002.

00:52:01Marc:Yeah.

00:52:03Marc:But I was given CDs and stuff.

00:52:05Marc:Yeah.

00:52:05Marc:For some reason, I have the Jonathan Fire Eater CDs.

00:52:08Marc:Shut up.

00:52:09Marc:I do.

00:52:09Guest:That's awesome.

00:52:10Marc:Yeah.

00:52:11Guest:They were so amazing.

00:52:12Marc:And I listened to it, and I was into it.

00:52:14Marc:But, like, what year would that have been?

00:52:15Marc:How did I get that?

00:52:16Guest:Mid-90s.

00:52:17Marc:Yes.

00:52:17Marc:Okay.

00:52:17Guest:Yes.

00:52:18Marc:Okay.

00:52:18Marc:So that time's out, right?

00:52:20Guest:Yeah.

00:52:21Marc:Yeah.

00:52:21Guest:They were the...

00:52:22Marc:Yeah, they were around.

00:52:23Marc:The Great Hope.

00:52:24Marc:Right.

00:52:24Marc:I had my buddy, John Daniel, was involved with music, so I was sort of up to speed on some things.

00:52:29Guest:Yeah, okay.

00:52:30Marc:In the 90s.

00:52:31Guest:Well, that's all right.

00:52:33Guest:I mean, is it only good if you were there?

00:52:36Guest:I mean, that theoretically.

00:52:38Marc:Well, the thing about looking at the book and reading through some of it is that when I read Please Kill Me, those were before me.

00:52:45Marc:And that was what everybody was going to New York to find, was that.

00:52:48Marc:that's what this is about no i get that but these guys were going to find that for sure and you kind of write about that yes like that's we're all looking for that thing that was like just it was just the the remnants of it and the and the people that were involved with that you know first wave of whatever made new york cool were just kind of droopy gray-haired dudes walking around in their leather pants that don't fit anymore with somebody going like that guy used to be something

00:53:13Guest:Yeah.

00:53:14Guest:If that if they were even living there anymore.

00:53:16Guest:But I guess I just think that that's the continuum.

00:53:18Guest:I mean, it's not like everyone in Please Kill Me weren't weren't pulling on.

00:53:23Guest:I see the continuum of that notion of New York identity as much, much as going much further, much further back than just 70s punk.

00:53:31Guest:I mean, I think that whole idea it's it's it's I mean, this is later, but it's.

00:53:37Guest:50s yeah I mean it's jazz it's it's fucking Ellis Island man it's like come to it's it's in the American identity of New York you're gonna come here and you're going to reinvent yourself and the cultural potency of that has is almost as old as you know as the city in some way and so but specifically in the world of the arts yes

00:54:01Marc:what came out of New York and then what sort of defined it is you had wealthy people who were willing to kick in to make shit happen, right?

00:54:13Marc:In a lot of ways.

00:54:14Marc:That's where you get a lot of the art from the 50s.

00:54:17Marc:Yeah, benefactors.

00:54:18Guest:But then, I mean, you know, for us, because this is my taste and I think yours too, like the punk, the 70s punk scene in CBGBs is just like, I mean, Please Kill Me was my total Bible.

00:54:32Guest:I'm obsessed with everybody in that book.

00:54:34Guest:I love that music.

00:54:35Guest:That's my stuff.

00:54:35Marc:I even came to that late.

00:54:37Guest:It's another of your specialties.

00:54:40Guest:More material for the business card.

00:54:42Marc:Yeah.

00:54:42Marc:Late to the party.

00:54:43Guest:Late to the party.

00:54:44Guest:Catastrophic thinking.

00:54:47Guest:Wrong kind of leadership skills.

00:54:49Marc:The future doesn't look good for any of us.

00:54:51Marc:Mark Maron.

00:54:52Guest:Mark Maron.

00:54:53Guest:Love Mark.

00:54:54Guest:Yeah.

00:54:54Guest:But, you know, I mean, obviously, there's also the whole Greenwich Village.

00:54:59Guest:Like, I mean, Dylan, for most people, Dylan is a touchstone for this.

00:55:02Guest:And it's so the idea that New York is this place that's constantly pulling on a previous constantly kind of co-opting and borrowing its own past self.

00:55:12Guest:Yeah.

00:55:13Guest:To reinvent for a new group of young people.

00:55:15Guest:Essentially.

00:55:17Guest:Yeah.

00:55:17Guest:the a new for them version of the same thing however that gets articulated that's eternal right they could still find the space there if they can still find the space there which is the question now but like for my for this book for me in the bathroom like i don't see it as i see it as just the sort of the the the chapter in the canon of that new york cultural story it's just goes right into the bookshelf and

00:55:42Guest:Right there, you know, after Please Kill Me and after Madonna and like before whatever comes next.

00:55:49Guest:But it's just, it's a stop.

00:55:50Guest:It's a stop on the larger train.

00:55:52Marc:I think what comes next is going to be a prominent either Chinese or Russian trend in rock music.

00:56:00Yeah.

00:56:00Guest:Do you have that on good authority?

00:56:01Marc:It seems like it.

00:56:05Marc:That's me speculating in a non-catastrophic way.

00:56:10Guest:Your vibe is not catastrophic at all as you say that.

00:56:14Marc:So soothing.

00:56:16Marc:When did you meet the late, great Mark Spitz?

00:56:20Guest:I met the late, great Mark Spitz pretty early.

00:56:22Marc:Because I assume he served as some sort of guide to whatever the fuck happened to you.

00:56:29Guest:Wow, yeah.

00:56:32Guest:I think he'd really like you putting it that way.

00:56:34Guest:Well, what Mark would say is that he taught me everything I know.

00:56:38Guest:Okay, there you go.

00:56:39Guest:So he would want me to say it that way, actually.

00:56:40Marc:So you're this bright-eyed kid from New Mexico through Philly who's looking for a rock fantasy, and that demon comes out of somewhere.

00:56:47Guest:Yes, yes.

00:56:48Guest:He's like, I can help you out slash ruin your life.

00:56:51Guest:And I was like, great.

00:56:53Guest:That's basically our story.

00:56:54Guest:Yeah.

00:56:55Guest:He talks in his memoir about how I was wearing flip flops when he first met me.

00:56:58Guest:And he's like, they're not shoes.

00:57:01Guest:Like he was very, my New Mexico vibe was pretty, you know, I didn't wear any makeup.

00:57:05Guest:I didn't like, I was still kind of like fresh scrubbed girl at that point.

00:57:09Guest:And I think Mark was based, Mark dated like,

00:57:12Guest:you know, bad, badass rock girls with like peroxide blonde hair.

00:57:17Guest:And he was sort of like, you are entirely too clean for me basically.

00:57:22Guest:And I was like, okay, but you like me.

00:57:26Guest:So.

00:57:26Marc:Oh no.

00:57:27Marc:That's a recipe for disaster.

00:57:29Marc:Who's going to win?

00:57:30Marc:Well, it looks like you did.

00:57:34Yeah.

00:57:34Guest:fast forward to later when he would say things to me like you chased me you know just and I was like uh-huh can you do this thing I'm asking you to do or what was he writing for spin when you met him yeah so the way I met Mark was Sarah Lewatin who is also a great character in the book and one of my best friends was my roommate um

00:57:53Guest:in new york when i first moved there so i graduated from college and by that time it was clear that like the city's music scene was happening and i felt i was like there to i was inspired by all of i was inspired i was inspired by and i was suddenly there was something to write about and so i then was like i want to be a writer who writes about this um but i i taught second grade for two years first because like you know you can't be a writer i

00:58:16Guest:Oh, you taught?

00:58:17Guest:That's nice.

00:58:18Guest:I taught at an all-boys private school on the Upper East Side.

00:58:20Guest:Blazers.

00:58:21Guest:Oh, really?

00:58:22Guest:Yeah, it was a double life for a while.

00:58:24Marc:You were a real full-on teacher, not a sub-teacher?

00:58:26Guest:Miss Goodman.

00:58:27Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:58:27Guest:Miss Goodman, second grade.

00:58:28Marc:And how did that end?

00:58:30Marc:Why did that end?

00:58:31Guest:It's a two-year thing, and it's like your assistant teacher, and then maybe you kind of, the carrying on of that would have been to go get a degree in education and stay in school.

00:58:41Marc:And what stopped you from doing that?

00:58:42Guest:Oh, you know, by that point.

00:58:45Guest:No, no.

00:58:45Guest:But he loved it.

00:58:46Guest:He would talk about how I would wake up in the middle of the night and I would go, because I talk in my sleep and I would go, boys, get in line.

00:58:53Guest:And he would be like, Jesus.

00:58:55Guest:Fuck.

00:58:57Guest:Who is this girl?

00:58:58Guest:Like, this is scary.

00:58:59Guest:She's like, yeah.

00:59:01Marc:So now, okay, so now you're getting involved with the rock scene.

00:59:05Marc:Your roommate is, what is she?

00:59:07Guest:So Sarah was Mark's little protege at Spin.

00:59:11Guest:Okay.

00:59:11Guest:So I met Mark before I graduated from college, actually, at Coachella, one of the first Coachellas.

00:59:16Guest:I went out with Sarah to see if we could live together.

00:59:18Guest:We went to this rock festival together to try it on.

00:59:21Guest:Yeah.

00:59:21Guest:And she introduced me to Mark, who was, I mean, it's in the book.

00:59:25Guest:Their meeting is pretty awesome.

00:59:27Guest:He didn't understand Instant Messenger because...

00:59:31Guest:I mean, he's Mark and Sarah was like this sort of proto tech savvy little Jewish girl in New Jersey who is who liked his writing.

00:59:39Guest:It was like, hi, I'm Ultra Girl.

00:59:40Guest:And he's like, why is this window coming up on my computer?

00:59:43Guest:Eventually she wore him down and they became pals.

00:59:46Guest:And so she introduced me to him and we had, you know, a sort of series of battles for about a year and a half, but then got together and.

00:59:55Guest:Yeah, I mean, Mark was my tour guide.

00:59:57Guest:He was writing for Spin.

00:59:59Guest:He was a hot shit writer, writing cover stories about all these bands.

01:00:03Marc:How'd you manage not to get all fucked up?

01:00:06Guest:I don't know.

01:00:07Guest:Honestly, I think it's genetic.

01:00:11Guest:i i really do i just i don't know you didn't have the thing i i went out and drank every night like everybody else and like you know there was all kinds of drugs around and it's but i just didn't care that much about it good for you but it's not good for me that makes it sound like something i get credit for and it's not like i get credit i mean not be compelled by that to like to get like to just to drink and smoke some weed and just enjoy the music you don't have to go you know you don't i mean i like you don't have to die twice

01:00:39Guest:But it makes it sound like it's a matter of sort of will, and it's not.

01:00:43Guest:That's why I'm saying it's genetic.

01:00:45Guest:It's like I don't have... I'm compulsive in other ways.

01:00:47Marc:Right.

01:00:47Marc:No, I get it.

01:00:48Marc:I get it.

01:00:49Marc:But that's why I'm saying you're lucky.

01:00:50Guest:I'm lucky.

01:00:51Marc:Yeah.

01:00:52Guest:So that's how.

01:00:52Marc:Okay.

01:00:53Guest:I'm lucky.

01:00:53Marc:So let's talk about the bands that define this thing and the arc of this book.

01:01:01Marc:Yeah.

01:01:02Marc:I think I got my first Walkman album six months ago.

01:01:08Guest:Okay.

01:01:08Guest:How are you liking it?

01:01:09Marc:It's okay.

01:01:10Marc:I think I got that guy's solo record, and I thought he was a good singer.

01:01:13Guest:Yeah.

01:01:14Marc:So the Strokes, you saw them become what they were.

01:01:17Marc:Yes.

01:01:18Marc:And then the White Stripes, I guess, were coming in from Detroit occasionally.

01:01:22Guest:Yeah, but I didn't... The White Stripes were not sort of first generation in New York of that world.

01:01:28Guest:I didn't know them.

01:01:28Guest:Well, who were the bands that were the... Strokes, Interpol, Yaya's, and LCD Sound System.

01:01:34Marc:See, like the whole LCD sound system thing, people were like, you gotta interview Murphy, you gotta interview him.

01:01:39Marc:I'm like, I don't know what he did.

01:01:41Marc:So I had to play catch up with DFA.

01:01:44Guest:Me too.

01:01:44Marc:Jonathan, the guy over at, what's his name?

01:01:46Marc:Yeah.

01:01:47Marc:He sent me all this shit, and I like that Prince Horn Dance Call record.

01:01:52Guest:Yes, good.

01:01:52Marc:That first record, I love that record.

01:01:54Guest:Okay.

01:01:54Guest:Well, you're starting well.

01:01:55Marc:They had to go find me that record.

01:01:57Marc:Like I said, do you have one of them around?

01:01:58Marc:They're like, it's not a good copy.

01:02:01Marc:We have one that's been laying around here.

01:02:03Marc:We're using as a mat for when you eat.

01:02:08Guest:You're time-castling your way into this.

01:02:11Guest:You will love James, and you'll... I listen to it.

01:02:14Marc:No, it's great.

01:02:14Marc:It's great.

01:02:15Marc:I watched the movie, and I actually narrated a short documentary on LCD South Pacific.

01:02:20Guest:You're like, who the fuck is this?

01:02:22Guest:Anyway, blah, blah, blah.

01:02:22Marc:No, they gave me the script and I laid it out.

01:02:25Marc:But I know he's something because he meant a lot to a lot of people.

01:02:27Marc:I can see how they meant something to people.

01:02:31Marc:And I can also see how they kind of like, well, there's a gap here that was once occupied by the talking heads that we should climb into.

01:02:41Guest:Totally.

01:02:41Yeah.

01:02:42Guest:But the talking head said that.

01:02:44Guest:I mean, that's what I do.

01:02:44Marc:I got no problem.

01:02:45Marc:That wasn't condescending.

01:02:46Guest:Okay.

01:02:47Guest:I am not James, so you don't have to... No.

01:02:50Marc:I understand how music works.

01:02:53Guest:Tell me more.

01:02:54Marc:I understand.

01:02:55Marc:Do tell me more.

01:02:56Marc:I understand that there's not a lot of new shit.

01:02:59Marc:Yes.

01:02:59Marc:And that you just keep reinventing the old shit.

01:03:02Guest:I think... I mean, yeah.

01:03:03Guest:All right.

01:03:04Guest:Sure.

01:03:04Guest:I think the thing that all the...

01:03:07Guest:The the period that the book covered what the book is about is not music.

01:03:11Guest:It's about all the things we already talked about.

01:03:13Guest:It's about it's about New York.

01:03:15Guest:It's the central character.

01:03:16Guest:It's about what it feels like for this group of people at that period of time under.

01:03:23Guest:To do a thing that is eternal, as we just described, which is to be young and to feel unseen and to get together with certain friends serendipitously that you meet who unlock something in you and to in the shadow of like...

01:03:38Guest:theoretical anonymity makes something beautiful that makes you feel alive I mean it's pure that's like that's art that's young people that's New York City that's rock and roll but it's important for the book that the context is also for my generation or these people that we're talking about it's happening in coincidence with all these other major global events like Napster which is 2000 and 9-11 which is 100% you know

01:04:06Guest:a huge part of this story obviously and it's about and then the reinvention of brooklyn and the commodification of brooklyn and the exporting of that via the internet the newly born internet to the world as this sort of notion of how to live like a lifestyle brand birthed by like when i interviewed james he said i was sort of trying to dip into that like the brooklyn idea and williamsburg and all this stuff and kind of ease my way and he goes

01:04:31Guest:oh yeah that's all our fault it's like cool thanks glad you know and it's that's what so this story is about that but it's about that through the lens of paul banks and carano and yes you know later jack white or the kings of leon guys or whatever and then off to england and off to the killers in vegas and around the world but i had that record

01:04:55Guest:We should just make a little pile of what you did have.

01:04:57Guest:It'll be about three albums deep.

01:04:59Marc:No, I've got more than I know.

01:05:01Guest:The Jonathan Fire Eater call is pretty big.

01:05:04Guest:That's an outlier.

01:05:05Guest:Yeah, you get points for that.

01:05:06Guest:That's a big cred point for you.

01:05:08Guest:Yeah, and I liked it.

01:05:10Marc:I thought it was pretty good.

01:05:11Marc:I thought it was pretty good.

01:05:12Guest:But those bands, I mean, to answer your question, such as it is, it's like there's no like, yeah, there's nothing new under the sun.

01:05:19Guest:And this is a retelling of a generational story.

01:05:23Marc:I believe that people make things new.

01:05:25Marc:I'm not one of those people that I don't have a problem with appropriation.

01:05:29Marc:I don't have a problem with with the evolution of music.

01:05:33Marc:And because, like, if you really look at rock, it's.

01:05:36Marc:The people that really make something completely new are generally misunderstood.

01:05:41Marc:And maybe years later, people are like, I think I get it.

01:05:45Guest:And somewhere they're like, no, you don't.

01:05:49Marc:But there's a core group of fans that are sort of like...

01:05:52Marc:We're the only ones that get it.

01:05:53Guest:Yeah.

01:05:54Guest:That bullshit.

01:05:54Guest:I mean, basically the story of the book to, to, I mean, if this is, Mark says this in the book, I mean, he's one of the greatest characters in it where he's basically like, look, I was 28 and writing for spin or whatever he was 30 something.

01:06:07Guest:He was 30 already and writing for spin.

01:06:09Guest:And like Mark, who had an encyclopedia, however you say that, you know what I'm saying?

01:06:14Guest:Encyclopedic.

01:06:15Guest:Thank you very much.

01:06:16Guest:Um, Sandia prep.

01:06:17Guest:Thank you.

01:06:18Guest:Um, knowledge of music and film and all that stuff was sitting there in New York city, loving New York city sort of, but just bored.

01:06:27Guest:And, and the, the thing that this, that this, that the, the sort of beginning of the book that everyone had in common.

01:06:33Marc:Energized boredom.

01:06:34Guest:Energized.

01:06:35Guest:Everyone was bored.

01:06:36Guest:James Murphy was bored.

01:06:37Guest:He did not know Karen O. Karen O was bored.

01:06:40Guest:She did not know Julian.

01:06:41Guest:Julian was bored.

01:06:43Guest:Julian didn't know Paul.

01:06:44Guest:Paul of Interpol.

01:06:45Guest:Paul was bored.

01:06:46Guest:And it was like in their own independent corners of this town at that period of time, they all did something about that boredom.

01:06:53Guest:And Mark Spitz or Sarah or, you know, any of the other sort of non-musicians, but journalists, future bloggers, A&R people, like all the different sort of...

01:07:05Guest:I don't know, contestants in this, in this like roadshow all had in common that sense of what we have here right now is really not enough.

01:07:14Guest:And we need to like build something cooler and no one else is doing it.

01:07:18Guest:So we're going to do it.

01:07:19Guest:So when Spitz heard, like, I mean, he says this hilariously in the book where he's just like, you know, when I heard the white stripes, it took me a minute to figure out that I was being saved because it was my job to write about Mark McGrath every day.

01:07:32Guest:And like there, it was boring.

01:07:34Guest:Yeah.

01:07:34Guest:It was bloated and boring.

01:07:36Guest:And that's the story.

01:07:37Guest:I get it.

01:07:38Marc:I get it.

01:07:39Marc:It's like, well, boredom, like to classify all those artists as bored.

01:07:43Marc:I understand that.

01:07:43Marc:But I think that, you know, in the history of what happened with punk rock and the sort of like, you know, kind of strange, angry, apathetic posturing that happened is that what it comes down to, though, anybody who surfaces with any consistency may be bored, but they're workers.

01:08:00Marc:Right.

01:08:01Marc:Oh, right.

01:08:01Guest:Well, that's totally.

01:08:02Guest:I mean, and that's also New York City.

01:08:04Guest:Like everyone in that town has to labor.

01:08:08Marc:Yeah.

01:08:08Guest:Yeah.

01:08:08Guest:And you've got to want it.

01:08:09Marc:Yeah.

01:08:10Marc:And you've got to keep pushing to to to sort of break away from the pack of garbage, because in any city, especially that size, you know, for every one maybe original band, there's going to be like 20 guys just tooling through rehash.

01:08:25Yeah.

01:08:25Guest:Especially in an era where, I mean, it's hard to overstate this and it seems crazy now, but I mean, it really seems crazy now, but like being in a rock band, I love the guys in Jonathan Fireator talk about this and later the Walkman.

01:08:40Guest:They talk about how like telling your friends that you were in a band was like, ugh.

01:08:45Guest:Now I have to go see you play.

01:08:47Guest:Yeah.

01:08:48Guest:It was like, really?

01:08:49Marc:Didn't electronic music kill something?

01:08:52Guest:Do we have to go through this charade of seeing you play?

01:08:54Guest:Do we have to go to Brownies?

01:08:55Guest:Yes.

01:08:56Guest:On Thursdays at seven.

01:08:58Guest:You know, like you're going to make us do that.

01:09:00Guest:You'll buy us drinks, right?

01:09:01Guest:I mean, it was like the least.

01:09:03Guest:possible cool thing to do and and it was like lame and and kind of an imposition on your friends to ask them to come see you play sure so this whole it's hysterical because relatively quickly people would be dressing across the country and around the world like they had just been thrifting on the lower east side but not when these bands formed

01:09:23Marc:But that's interesting because that whole thing, you know, that thrifting thing has reinvented itself with every generation of people.

01:09:31Marc:Yeah.

01:09:31Marc:It's like now like they're thrifting 1980s clothing.

01:09:34Guest:And I'm like, no, I know.

01:09:36Guest:I know.

01:09:36Guest:I'm feeling that, too.

01:09:37Marc:It's weird.

01:09:38Marc:Because when I was in high school, we were thrifting shark skin.

01:09:41Guest:Yeah.

01:09:42Guest:That's better.

01:09:43Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:09:44Marc:And then that kind of the whole, you know, that rockabilly kind of blues, like whatever the fuck it was.

01:09:50Guest:Yeah, better.

01:09:50Marc:You're going after those suits and those skinny ties.

01:09:52Guest:Can we speak to someone about this?

01:09:53Guest:Like, can we address this with the culture in general that we just nominate certain eras as out of the loop of going to be rediscovered?

01:10:03Marc:Well, some of them, that shit's not even around anymore.

01:10:05Marc:Like, you know, fortunately for now, everything is made so badly.

01:10:09Guest:I know.

01:10:09Guest:People will never be thrifting 2017.

01:10:12Marc:No, the H&M shit is not going to hold up.

01:10:15Guest:Maybe we've inadvertently solved the problem.

01:10:17Marc:The Urban Outfitters that was stealing the fashions that were previously thrifted is not even making shit that will hold up to be thrifted.

01:10:25Guest:So maybe we just need a generation to cycle through that.

01:10:27Guest:In like 20 years, people will actually have to create new stuff because it literally will have all disintegrated.

01:10:32Marc:We're going to have to create outfits that will withstand the heat.

01:10:35Marc:Oh, God.

01:10:36Guest:i'm sorry you're picking me right out there i did it i did it yeah you did yeah i'm sorry we're gonna be wearing enclosed outfits of some sort you know new mexico is supposed to fare relatively well i mean water is gonna be a huge problem but water is gonna be a problem but we have the mountains we have aquifers don't we right on an aquifer oh yeah we give a lot of as i understand it no no wait i think we give a lot of water to california so motherfuckers

01:11:00Marc:Yeah, well, you know, California's thirsty, man.

01:11:02Marc:It's always thirsty.

01:11:03Guest:Okay.

01:11:04Marc:So, like, I know Eleanor Freeburger.

01:11:05Marc:This is what I did with the list of names.

01:11:07Guest:No, you read all your quotes first.

01:11:10Guest:Come on.

01:11:10Guest:Of course.

01:11:10Guest:Yes, okay.

01:11:11Guest:Then you looked at the list of names.

01:11:12Marc:Yeah, and then I kind of poked around it, like, you know, the chapter headings.

01:11:16Guest:Yes.

01:11:16Marc:But I don't know Grizzly Bear.

01:11:18Marc:The National I came really late to, and I understand why they're good.

01:11:22Marc:But I don't know that I go back to the records that much.

01:11:24Marc:TV on the radio.

01:11:25Marc:Amazing.

01:11:26Marc:I listened to their first and second record.

01:11:28Marc:I'm like, holy shit, this is amazing.

01:11:29Guest:Yeah, they're incredible.

01:11:30Marc:Yeah.

01:11:31Marc:The AAS, first couple records, I listened to them.

01:11:34Marc:I had them.

01:11:35Marc:The Hives, I had that record.

01:11:36Marc:I remember liking it.

01:11:38Guest:So what's your problem?

01:11:39Marc:Nothing.

01:11:40Marc:Vampire Weekend, don't think I've ever heard them.

01:11:41Guest:All right.

01:11:42Marc:Interpol.

01:11:43Marc:I think I got a recent record with like their back and I'm like, I missed it the first time.

01:11:48Marc:Pretty good.

01:11:49Marc:Libertines.

01:11:49Marc:Just got a Libertines record.

01:11:51Guest:How are you feeling about it?

01:11:51Guest:Pretty good.

01:11:52Marc:Yeah.

01:11:52Marc:Kind of punky, right?

01:11:53Marc:Yeah.

01:11:54Marc:Hopefully we'll come up on something and you'll be like, you really have to go and do that.

01:11:58Guest:Is that what you're looking for?

01:11:59Guest:Yeah.

01:12:00Marc:Well.

01:12:01Marc:I buy a lot of records.

01:12:02Marc:I'm like, I'm in a renaissance of music appreciation.

01:12:07Yeah.

01:12:07Guest:I'll send you a list.

01:12:08Guest:I mean, I don't know.

01:12:09Guest:I have your book.

01:12:10Guest:I know.

01:12:11Guest:Well, you do, though, actually, because you can't start.

01:12:13Guest:Go on.

01:12:14Guest:Moldy Peaches.

01:12:15Guest:Yeah.

01:12:16Guest:Amazing.

01:12:16Guest:Did you play Who's Got the Crack?

01:12:17Marc:I don't have it.

01:12:18Guest:All right.

01:12:18Guest:Well, you should play that.

01:12:20Guest:Play Who's Got the Crack by the Moldy Peaches.

01:12:21Marc:It's just one song?

01:12:22Guest:Well, that song in particular is your gateway drug for them.

01:12:25Marc:David Cross, comedian.

01:12:26Marc:I know him.

01:12:27Guest:Familiar with his work.

01:12:28Guest:Yes, are you?

01:12:29Marc:Yes.

01:12:30Guest:Uh-huh.

01:12:30Marc:Hold steady.

01:12:31Marc:I like that guy.

01:12:31Guest:Craig's a good guy.

01:12:32Marc:Yeah, Craig's pretty great, right?

01:12:33Marc:Yeah, he's a good talker.

01:12:34Marc:He's a thinker.

01:12:34Marc:He's good.

01:12:35Marc:The Killers.

01:12:35Marc:I like that, okay.

01:12:36Marc:Kings of Leon, first two records.

01:12:38Guest:Incredible.

01:12:38Marc:Then what happened?

01:12:39Guest:Well, yeah.

01:12:40Guest:But, okay, that's another alternate title for this book.

01:12:44Yeah.

01:12:44Marc:Sure is.

01:12:46Marc:Where's the staying power?

01:12:48Guest:Well, they're all still making albums and touring and doing well.

01:12:51Marc:Yeah.

01:12:52Guest:Like literally all of these people.

01:12:53Marc:Yeah.

01:12:54Guest:Well, okay.

01:12:55Marc:So like, okay, let's talk about then what happened.

01:12:57Marc:What did happen?

01:12:58Marc:Well, let's first talk about like the whole that...

01:13:01Marc:9-11 left in the world.

01:13:03Marc:And you're all over that chapter.

01:13:06Guest:See, that's another place they used you.

01:13:07Marc:But compounding whatever that boredom was, was that horrendous existential terror, sadness, grieving.

01:13:16Marc:I think I talked to Spitz about that a bit too.

01:13:18Guest:Yes, you did, yeah.

01:13:19Marc:But a lot of this came out of that.

01:13:22Guest:Well, it didn't come out of it.

01:13:24Guest:It was positioned, as gross as that word is under the circumstances, to be heard in a different way and by more people as a result of it.

01:13:34Guest:Right.

01:13:35Guest:You know, none of these important records, the first Yaya Yaz record, the first Strokes record, the first Interpol record, early DFA stuff.

01:13:43Guest:None of that had been was written post 9-11.

01:13:46Guest:It was not a response to that.

01:13:49Guest:It was written before, but it was about, you know, it was about all these themes that we were just talking about.

01:13:54Guest:Yeah.

01:13:54Guest:culture considered obsolete, like sadness and anxiety and loud guitars as a solution to that or as an expression of that as a response to being alive.

01:14:05Guest:Right.

01:14:06Guest:It was like, oh, that's old news.

01:14:07Guest:And then, you know, the towers come down and New York City is under attack and America is under attack.

01:14:12Guest:And it makes you kind of return to the sort of like core aesthetics of

01:14:21Guest:of rebellion and that's rock and roll so what do you want to hear you want to hear jack fucking white playing guitar you want to hear uh the urgency of the first strokes record you want to you want a kind of um a manic toughness you want that i'm hip to that yeah

01:14:38Guest:And I think so these bands who it's not like if 9-11 hadn't happened, the strokes wouldn't have broken in England.

01:14:45Guest:They had already broken in England and kind of ignited this industry wide, like double take towards New York before 9-11 happened.

01:14:52Guest:Their album was supposed to come out like the week after 9-11, the first one in the States.

01:14:56Guest:So it was already kicking off.

01:14:58Guest:But what 9-11 did is a couple of things, I think.

01:15:01Guest:And this is argued in the book.

01:15:02Guest:It it it animated it.

01:15:05Guest:It increased the number of people who were immediately feeling the need for that kind of sound.

01:15:11Guest:And it also turned the world's attention to New York City culturally in a way that it had not been.

01:15:17Guest:It had not had the attention of of sort of like global cool hounds in that way.

01:15:22Guest:In sense.

01:15:24Guest:I don't know.

01:15:24Marc:And also like it.

01:15:25Marc:They were it was also attention for.

01:15:28Marc:Perseverance.

01:15:30Guest:Yes.

01:15:30Marc:Everyone, I mean... Strength.

01:15:32Marc:Yes.

01:15:33Marc:Sympathy.

01:15:33Marc:Yeah.

01:15:34Marc:You know, Bruce Springsteen had to go to work.

01:15:37Guest:Yeah, Bruce Springsteen got the bat call.

01:15:39Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:15:40Guest:It was like, time to hit it, you know?

01:15:41Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:15:42Guest:And yeah, and I think, I mean, all these bands talk about touring in the wake of that and being...

01:15:46Guest:doing comedy in the wake of sure and and but being cast as kind of um emissaries for new york and again for this idea of what new york is about that the entire world on some level was either either loving or hating at that point in new ways because yeah it was it was interesting time because if you were a new yorker and you did live there yeah you were like we're we're gonna fight

01:16:09Guest:Yes, totally.

01:16:10Guest:And we're thinking about that now.

01:16:12Guest:And the other thing that it did, I think, for the purposes of this scene, such as it is, and Tunde from TV on the radio talks about this in the book.

01:16:21Guest:When he said this to me, it really kind of, it was a turning point from my understanding of this.

01:16:25Guest:He talked about how basically he thinks 9-11...

01:16:28Guest:put a kind of pause button on the gentrification race that was already happening I mean the sort of post the Giuliani into Bloomberg cleaning up of everything that would eventually result in the New York the slick anodyne I don't even know who lives there

01:16:44Guest:No one does.

01:16:46Guest:It's Saudi billionaires who have apartments.

01:16:48Guest:Right, they're summer homes.

01:16:49Guest:Yeah, they're summer homes that they might go to.

01:16:52Marc:It seems French, Russian, Saudi.

01:16:54Guest:It's interesting.

01:16:56Guest:Chinese.

01:16:56Marc:I don't know what it is.

01:16:58Marc:It feels like it doesn't have...

01:17:01Marc:a cultural identity, has an architectural identity.

01:17:06Guest:And the identity right now is money.

01:17:08Guest:Money has a bleaching effect eventually on culture, I think.

01:17:13Guest:And right now, New York feels to me like burnt out, like whited out.

01:17:20Guest:I'm not talking about race.

01:17:21Marc:Not burnt out in the way that it was burnt out when it was bankrupt, but burnt out in the way that...

01:17:28Guest:Like acid has been poured on it and it's, it's like bleached out, you know, like, I don't know.

01:17:34Guest:I mean, I keep seeing, you know, I don't know what causes this, but when a creative spirit has been deadened.

01:17:40Guest:Yeah.

01:17:41Guest:By capitalism.

01:17:43Guest:Yeah.

01:17:43Guest:By money.

01:17:44Marc:And by people that don't, that, that there don't like, it's, it'd be interesting to, to, to really explore what is rooting there.

01:17:52Marc:Yeah.

01:17:52Marc:You know, in the sense that, you know, it is completely antithetical to what it used to be when it was.

01:17:57Marc:Well, I think the big difference was there was a time where always money there.

01:18:01Marc:But the people that worked there could live there.

01:18:04Guest:Yes.

01:18:04Guest:And now that's not true.

01:18:05Guest:And what's funny and not ha ha funny.

01:18:07Guest:But of course, like the it's all connected to this era because that's why James saying it's our fault is funny.

01:18:14Guest:And again, Brooklyn.

01:18:15Guest:Brooklyn, because it's all those people.

01:18:18Guest:New York became the kind of place where you would invest in that kind of apartment because of all of the culture that that re enlivened it and made it interesting and sort of buzzy and brandable in that way.

01:18:30Guest:And now all these people who bought there on some level, whether they know it or not, as a result of this this latest incarnation of that New York thing.

01:18:41Guest:Right.

01:18:41Guest:live in a place where none of those people can be but this is also like in a way so boring because it's like no shit yeah that's called the cycle of art that's called like art versus commerce 101 i mean it's going to just play itself that way over and over they all moved out of the city like that that generation of artists once they got money they all live here

01:19:00Guest:They all live here.

01:19:01Guest:Or they live in New Jersey or Connecticut or Brooklyn or, you know, a lot of them keep sort of like, I love this.

01:19:07Guest:I understand this instinct.

01:19:08Guest:I feel this instinct.

01:19:08Guest:They keep places in New York, like a little apartment on near the Bowery or a little whatever.

01:19:14Guest:And just to kind of be like, no, no.

01:19:16Marc:I still got a bed there.

01:19:18Guest:Yeah, I still have a place to rest.

01:19:19Marc:So like this.

01:19:20Marc:So this the arc of this book from, you know, 2011 sort of ends in Brooklyn becoming the like the the the wealth center of hipsters.

01:19:31Marc:Totally.

01:19:32Marc:And but also just that that did it ever have any integrity other than.

01:19:36Guest:Yes, for sure.

01:19:37Guest:But I also just think it's yes, it did.

01:19:39Guest:I will answer that.

01:19:39Guest:But also that the idea that that would have one of the things that's hard to see from now, because it's so obvious that that is what took place is how unlikely that seemed that that would at the time, if you had been sitting there in 2002 and and sort of prognosticating that in 20, in 10 years or whatever, like Williamsburg.

01:19:59Guest:a place you could not get cabs to take you was going to be the default locus of cool for the globe.

01:20:08Marc:But it's weird because there was some... You would have been laughed out of that conversation.

01:20:12Marc:Well, it's sort of like I lived in Astoria.

01:20:14Marc:I had an apartment in Astoria from 95 until like 2000 and whenever my subletter was just informed by the new owner of the building that he now had the lease.

01:20:25Marc:Yeah.

01:20:26Marc:Quick note, a note under the door.

01:20:29Marc:But there were people like Louie had a place in Williamsburg.

01:20:31Marc:There were people moving into Long Island City.

01:20:34Marc:Yeah.

01:20:35Marc:And like, so it was sort of happening, but that was because you could get space for still relatively little.

01:20:39Guest:It's just like everyone moved to Williamsburg because it was cheap.

01:20:43Guest:And because and to return to what Tunde is saying, I mean, it was like you could get free.

01:20:48Guest:He and Dave Siddick met each other because they lived in the same converted loft and they were passing each other's rooms enough and seeing that the same shit basically was on the floor of each other's rooms.

01:20:58Guest:And it was sort of like, I guess we should probably talk.

01:21:01Guest:You know, you've got the same weird stuff in there that I have in like.

01:21:04Guest:And that's not like, it's so easy to be like, wow, that must have been so cool.

01:21:09Guest:And it's like, it's only romantic later.

01:21:12Guest:At the time, it's like, I need to live somewhere and be able to paint.

01:21:17Guest:Right, but that's... That's the story of the, I mean...

01:21:20Marc:Right, but that context or that framework of life has repeated itself.

01:21:25Guest:Yes, exactly.

01:21:25Marc:Generation to generation.

01:21:26Guest:Totally.

01:21:27Guest:The loft.

01:21:28Guest:Yeah, the loft.

01:21:29Guest:That's another title that we hear.

01:21:30Guest:But the thing about 9-11 that Toonday was saying that's important is that whole gentrification we're talking about and the money and the bleaching out or however you want to phrase it.

01:21:38Guest:Basically, his theory, and I...

01:21:40Guest:buy this now is that that was coming much sooner and 9-11 paused it because there was a sense.

01:21:48Guest:I mean, people thought no one would travel there anymore.

01:21:51Guest:No one wanted to get on planes.

01:21:52Guest:It was like, oh, for a second, it was like, is New York's economy going to die?

01:21:56Guest:So there was this really like...

01:21:57Marc:Are things going to get cheap in the East Village?

01:22:00Guest:They were, I mean, are things going to, you know, plummet here?

01:22:05Guest:Is it going to be the 70s New York thing again because no one will, tourism will die and no one will want to live here and all that stuff?

01:22:10Guest:Is there going to be, because it was terrifying and it was like, you know,

01:22:15Guest:every plane that flew overhead.

01:22:16Guest:It was, I mean, people, there were a couple years where, and so what that created for the purposes of this book is this weird period of uncertainty that was really a gift to these bands because there was a couple years and this is my, my heyday really of like going out and seeing shows during that time.

01:22:34Guest:It was,

01:22:35Guest:2002 2003 maybe into 2004 but barely where it was like it was just wild everyone was like are we gonna die okay let's party and it got druggy and it got dirty and it wasn't that expensive yet rent wasn't going up really it was sort of just like the whole the whole apparatus was trying to figure out how this was gonna shake out and it was like cool let's play yeah

01:23:00Marc:Yeah, you should read, you know what book sort of answers some of those questions behind the scenes?

01:23:05Marc:What?

01:23:06Marc:Did you ever read that book, Securing the City?

01:23:08Marc:Mm-mm.

01:23:08Marc:Oh my God.

01:23:10Guest:Who wrote it?

01:23:11Marc:I recommend this book to so many people.

01:23:14Guest:Did you secretly write it?

01:23:16Guest:No.

01:23:17Guest:Oh, good cover.

01:23:19Guest:It's ominous.

01:23:20Marc:Yeah, it's about.

01:23:21Guest:It looks like the beginning of every Law and Order, old school Law and Order episode.

01:23:25Marc:It's by Christopher Dickey, who I believe is James Dickey's son.

01:23:28Marc:And I still see him as he shows up on shows on CNN and stuff.

01:23:32Marc:But it's really about how how New York had to create its own counter.

01:23:37Guest:Yes.

01:23:37Guest:Oh, I should read this.

01:23:39Marc:It's great.

01:23:39Guest:Yeah, because it was like we're our own city and we have to protect ourselves.

01:23:43Marc:Yeah, because the federal government and the CIA and the FBI were not talking really.

01:23:47Marc:Yeah.

01:23:48Marc:And the federal government was not really stepping up.

01:23:50Guest:And clearly didn't know what was going on.

01:23:52Marc:Yeah, and it was Giuliani still who was like, we've got to make our own counterterrorism force and we've got to have international- And Ray Kelly.

01:24:00Marc:Yeah, Ray Kelly, yeah.

01:24:01Marc:Dude.

01:24:01Marc:And this guy Cohen, it's great.

01:24:04Guest:Okay, I'll read this.

01:24:05Guest:And then I'll be like, I should have talked to him for the book.

01:24:07Guest:Fuck.

01:24:08Fuck.

01:24:08Guest:This is my life.

01:24:09Guest:Like, I wake up still at night being like, damn it.

01:24:12Marc:Next edition.

01:24:13Guest:Don't even joke about that.

01:24:14Guest:Why?

01:24:14Guest:I'm never writing another oral history ever again.

01:24:17Marc:It's hard to organize.

01:24:19Guest:Oh.

01:24:19Guest:It made me move upstate to a cabin in the woods by myself because I had an emotional breakdown.

01:24:24Guest:Like, it's so hard.

01:24:25Guest:The organization is really a nightmare.

01:24:27Marc:Well, you did it and people like it.

01:24:30Marc:Yeah.

01:24:30Marc:And, you know, it seems to be all in there.

01:24:33Yeah.

01:24:33Guest:Yeah, you did a little perusal, check it out, make sure.

01:24:35Marc:What are you talking... What do you want from me?

01:24:37Guest:I think it's hilarious.

01:24:38Guest:I'm excited.

01:24:39Guest:My favorite people around the book are... One of my favorite pieces written about the book was by my friend Dan Ozzy, who hates... Who does not like any of this music, basically.

01:24:51Guest:He's in the book talking about Conor Oberst, because he loves Conor Oberst.

01:24:54Guest:But he basically...

01:24:55Guest:He's a music nerd and a rock critic.

01:24:59Guest:And he's just like, all of these fans suck, basically.

01:25:02Guest:I mean, not literally, but it's not his stuff.

01:25:04Marc:But the thing is, I'm not a Conor Oberst fan, but I had him in here.

01:25:09Marc:Some of my best interviews are with people who I'm like, I don't get it.

01:25:12Guest:Well, that's why I'm saying.

01:25:13Guest:That's basically what I'm saying.

01:25:15Guest:I enjoy the fact that this isn't your world.

01:25:18Guest:I think that's more fun.

01:25:19Guest:Well, I can learn more.

01:25:20Guest:As the creator of this project to talk to someone like that than someone who's like, Julian Casablanca is my favorite rock star of all time.

01:25:27Guest:You're like, well, you're going to love this.

01:25:29Guest:Yeah.

01:25:30Guest:Boy, do I have a book for you.

01:25:32Guest:This is writing.

01:25:33Guest:I take this part of journalism seriously.

01:25:35Guest:It's not my job to write a press release for one of these bands.

01:25:38Guest:It's my job to convince those who aren't naturally inclined to take this as interesting that there's something there.

01:25:46Marc:Well, here's what I have to say.

01:25:47Marc:I'm happy you kids had your time.

01:25:49Guest:Okay.

01:25:50Guest:Are you going to try to say that that was not condescending?

01:25:53Guest:Because I'm not going to, that's not sellable.

01:25:55Guest:That was a joke.

01:25:56Marc:That was a joke.

01:25:57Guest:Oh, was it?

01:25:58Marc:It was a sarcastic condescension.

01:26:00Guest:Ha, ha, ha, ha.

01:26:04Marc:Ha, ha.

01:26:05Marc:let's let's shift shift gears to more serious shit okay um you know i then the private police state arranged by juliana no just personal stuff i mean like i you know i haven't talked to you really since mark uh passed away i eulogized him on this show yes thank you for doing

01:26:22Marc:and uh you know because i like the guy and i literally you know texted him like like a week before it happened yeah do you talk about what happened can you talk about it or no i can totally talk about i like talking about i think people are a little afraid understandably to ask me about him because it's because you guys were friends you were romantically involved on and off you were best friends he was you know on the up and up again it seemed

01:26:48Guest:Yes, 100 percent.

01:26:49Guest:It's really tragic.

01:26:50Guest:I mean, the answer to what happened, which is what I guess is like not known, I suppose.

01:26:55Guest:I mean, I don't really know.

01:26:56Marc:I don't know anything other than he died.

01:26:58Marc:And then I texted you to say sorry, but then I got no information.

01:27:04Marc:And then, you know, you just sit there and go like, well, what happened?

01:27:06Marc:What that you know, it's not he's one of those guys where you're like, it was bound to happen, but it didn't seem like it was going to happen that way.

01:27:12Guest:Well, a lot of people you feel like it's bound to happen and then it doesn't.

01:27:15Guest:I mean, Mark was had a history, obviously, of drug use.

01:27:19Guest:And I think most people assume that he died of an overdose.

01:27:21Guest:And that's not what happened.

01:27:23Guest:I mean, he didn't.

01:27:25Guest:He we don't know for sure because there was not an autopsy performed.

01:27:29Guest:So there's no like there a cause of death.

01:27:33Guest:Heart attack?

01:27:34Guest:I mean, cause of death unknown, as far as I know.

01:27:37Guest:Really?

01:27:37Guest:Yeah.

01:27:38Marc:So this is what you're not afraid to talk about?

01:27:39Marc:We have no information?

01:27:41Guest:Well, kind of, except, I mean, I guess I just think, so I was here, and we shared custody of our dogs.

01:27:48Guest:So Mark and I were together for six or seven years in my 20s, and then we broke up like 10 years ago.

01:27:55Guest:But we stayed incredibly close friends, and he was my creative...

01:28:00Guest:partner basically like that mark this book would not exist without mark he was the person on the other end of the line consistently throughout my entire career well like not i mean sometimes but like sometimes it was nitty-gritty stuff but more just all writers need like the the all people i guess but create the the sort of like who do you who's on the red phone you know he was on it was like

01:28:23Guest:I don't know.

01:28:24Guest:And this isn't working.

01:28:25Guest:And what do I do?

01:28:25Guest:And like help.

01:28:26Guest:And also I just need to vent.

01:28:28Guest:It's like, that was Mark.

01:28:29Guest:We were really, really tight creatively.

01:28:32Guest:And he would do the same.

01:28:33Guest:We would talk to each other about writing every day and our dogs.

01:28:37Guest:And so I was out here and he had been in a period of incredibly bad depression for a couple of years.

01:28:42Guest:I mean, probably his whole life, but it had been really bad.

01:28:47Guest:And, um,

01:28:48Guest:I was helping him and his family was helping him try to get the right mental health care, which never quite came together for him.

01:28:56Guest:And so eventually, after a couple of years, in the month before he died, he was better than I'd ever seen him.

01:29:05Guest:He may have told you that.

01:29:07Marc:Like running a little bit.

01:29:09Guest:Yeah, he was taking better care of himself.

01:29:11Guest:No, no.

01:29:11Guest:And he hadn't been.

01:29:12Guest:I mean, I think I know that Mark lied to me about drugs over the years, but he wasn't like, here's what happened the night that he died.

01:29:21Guest:He went to a bar the night that I think he died.

01:29:24Guest:He went to a bar because he.

01:29:26Guest:i mean we don't know exactly when he died he went to a bar on february 2nd yeah and he had a couple of drinks like a drink and a half with a friend and at 6 30 something like that and he came home and he walked the dogs with this friend and he was inside his house with the chain on the door and the locks on the door and a bowl of pasta on his uh on his like coffee table that's where they found him

01:29:52Guest:And I couldn't hear, I didn't hear from him the next day and I was worried and I didn't hear from him the next morning and he didn't do that with the dog.

01:30:00Guest:I mean, he was the dog thing.

01:30:02Guest:Mark loved those dogs more than anything in the world and wouldn't fuck around with their health and knew I was all the way out in California.

01:30:08Guest:I mean, he was like more neurotic about the dogs than I am.

01:30:11Guest:And that's how his, eventually I woke a bunch of people up and his super went into his apartment and he found him just slumped over on his couch with dinner on the table.

01:30:21Guest:So like as I have never done heroin, but my understanding is you don't make a big bowl.

01:30:27Guest:And also there was no drug paraphernalia in his house and no drugs.

01:30:31Marc:Oregon went.

01:30:33Guest:Yeah.

01:30:33Guest:I mean, it's an aneurysm or a heart attack or what.

01:30:36Guest:And he, I mean, the dogs were fine.

01:30:39Guest:They were in that house with him for 36 hours and they were thirsty and they were pasta.

01:30:46Guest:He would love that.

01:30:48Yeah.

01:30:48Guest:He would have fucking loved it if Joanie had been like, pardon me, asshole.

01:30:53Guest:I'm hungry.

01:30:54Guest:And, like, there's sausage in that.

01:30:55Guest:Like, she's too short.

01:30:57Guest:She couldn't get up to the... Too short.

01:31:00Guest:Short legs.

01:31:01Marc:Well, you know, it's nice to know that it probably wasn't some, you know, grisly relapse.

01:31:10Guest:No.

01:31:11Guest:I mean, if it... You know, I don't know enough about... You tell me.

01:31:14Guest:Can you, like...

01:31:16Guest:have secretly done a bunch of heroin five hours before and then go home and make dinner and then die from doing that?

01:31:21Marc:I mean... It doesn't quite add up, but it seems to me that he put himself and his body through a lot.

01:31:27Guest:Yes, I think that's it.

01:31:28Guest:It caught up to him.

01:31:30Marc:And if you don't know what your... I don't know when his last physical was.

01:31:33Guest:He had one.

01:31:35Guest:I made him go and get one.

01:31:37Marc:What was the information?

01:31:38Guest:All systems go.

01:31:39Marc:Huh.

01:31:40Guest:But you don't, I mean, this is what the, there's, I mean, I'm going to be dealing with Mark's death for the rest of my life.

01:31:46Marc:It's probably not heart stuff then.

01:31:47Guest:Well, I mean, right.

01:31:48Guest:Like this is, if you have a like blood clot, if you have an, an aneurysm is undetectable.

01:31:53Guest:I mean, you can't like, you can go people and this, we don't have any control over any of this.

01:31:58Guest:And the illusion is that like,

01:31:59Guest:If you take good care of yourself and you get physicals and you sort of like drink your green juice, that there's a sense of control over warding off death.

01:32:08Guest:And it's just not like that.

01:32:10Guest:And like Mark abused the shit out of his body, but that's also no guarantee that he was going to die in that way.

01:32:15Guest:And you can take really good care of yourself and you can get hit by a butt.

01:32:19Guest:I mean, you know, or die of something undiagnosed.

01:32:21Guest:It's just what happened.

01:32:23Guest:And it's horrible.

01:32:25Marc:It's horrible.

01:32:26Marc:But the one thing we do know was quick.

01:32:29Guest:Yeah.

01:32:30Guest:And he was there with the two people in the world that he loved the most, which are those two dogs.

01:32:34Marc:Oh, good.

01:32:35Guest:Swear to God.

01:32:36Marc:Well, I'm sorry for your loss.

01:32:37Marc:Thank you.

01:32:38Marc:And congratulations on the book.

01:32:39Marc:And it was nice of you to dedicate it to him, of course.

01:32:43Guest:Well, my friend Imran told a really potentially off-color but actually amazing joke about this when this happened because Imran loved Mark and knew him very well and loves me.

01:32:53Guest:And he goes, so that's what it took, huh, to get...

01:32:56Guest:to get to get them because it was dedicated to my parents yeah and they got this is the only thing Mark could have done and I mean you know you knew him quite well and you guys have a shared sense of real black humor and so do I and Mark I mean I can hear him sometimes just being like the biggest problem with that book was there was not enough of me in it so I had to do something yeah that's funny well yeah you got to have the dark humor so you don't you know so the bottom doesn't fall out exactly yeah

01:33:25Marc:Well, it's nice talking to you.

01:33:26Guest:Nice talking to you.

01:33:33Marc:That was fun.

01:33:33Marc:That was good.

01:33:34Marc:That was emotional in some ways.

01:33:37Marc:Don't forget, if you're in L.A., you can join me and Brendan for our only L.A.

01:33:41Marc:book event and signing this Sunday, October 29th at 7 p.m.

01:33:45Marc:Go to LiveTalksLA.org or the tour page of WTFPod.com.

01:33:51Marc:I can't play guitar.

01:33:52Marc:I'm tired and I'm a little depressed.

01:33:56Marc:Boomer lives!