Episode 848 - George Schlatter
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf i feel a little better than i did the last time i talked to you but geez man i'm okay i'm
Marc:All right, I'm not complaining.
Marc:I don't like to be misunderstood as complaining.
Marc:Today on the show, George Schlatter is here.
Marc:George Schlatter has been... He's almost like a Zelig-like character, but he maintains the same form...
Marc:and disposition throughout all the years.
Marc:He doesn't change, but he's always there somewhere in the background, lurking in the background of comedy, of television comedy.
Marc:Schwatter is always there.
Marc:Schwatter has always been there.
Marc:Schwatter will probably always be there.
Marc:But he did create Laugh-In.
Marc:And it's celebrating its 50th anniversary.
Marc:And Time Life has released the complete series on DVD.
Marc:And that got him out.
Marc:Got him out in the world to talk to me.
Marc:And I believe that you're actually... When I talk to George Schlatter, you're hearing...
Marc:what it sounds like to be pitched on something, to be hustled, to be cajoled with a true show business charm and wit into doing something.
Marc:I believe I might have agreed to making a show with him, but I'm not sure.
Marc:You'll have to parse it.
Marc:Because I'm not sure.
Marc:I'm not sure.
Marc:I don't know if we're in business together or not.
Marc:But it felt like a good part of the interview had something to do with that.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I don't feel like I'm talking correctly.
Marc:So I go back to the doc today.
Marc:And I'm happy I have insurance and a doctor.
Marc:Everybody should.
Marc:And it should be affordable and reasonable.
Marc:That's why you must push back.
Marc:Push back on the repeal and replacers.
Marc:Yeah, you shouldn't be afraid that you're going to die of something in your mouth because you can't get it looked at other than going to an emergency room.
Marc:Anyway, I went back to Dr. Gooey.
Marc:Dr. Gooey in Pasadena.
Marc:So they took all this stuff out and they sent it out to be biopsied.
Marc:So in the back of my mind, I'm like, that's just hanging there.
Marc:It was right around where I used to do the lozenges, right around where I used to do the occasional dip-a-doodle every once in a while to get my brain jacked up and get the real...
Marc:Hum of the nicotine buzz on.
Marc:I'd occasionally dip.
Marc:So says right there on the label causes mouth cancer, causes teeth loss, causes gum disease, causes dumb disease.
Marc:Yeah, you're dumb if you do it.
Marc:But it's, you know, you just ride a line with these dumb addictions.
Marc:But so I took all this shit out of my mouth and I sent it out to be biopsy today.
Marc:I went back for the follow up.
Marc:Apparently everything's healing well when they had not got the biopsy back a week later.
Marc:And that's driving me fucking nuts.
Marc:And then the doc looks at me, and he's like, I don't know how your face would look after I stitched it up.
Marc:And I'm like, he goes, it looks fine.
Marc:It's like, well, thanks for gambling.
Marc:Thanks for rolling the dice.
Marc:Thanks for not doing whatever.
Marc:My lip's still numb, and I can't talk right, and it's hard to hold liquid in my mouth.
Marc:But if that's the way it's going to be for the rest of my life, that's the way it's going to be.
Marc:As you get older, things get cut off.
Marc:Things get taken away.
Marc:Things get moved.
Marc:Things...
Marc:You know, you're just like a pirate.
Marc:You might lose an eye or a leg, but you got a patch and you got a thing, a peg.
Marc:So, you know, everybody's a pirate eventually.
Marc:Just chipping away.
Marc:Life just chips away until you're just a pirate.
Marc:So they called the biopsy place and they were like, do you want to wait?
Marc:And they're going to fax it over.
Marc:I'm like, I don't want to be panicky guy in the lobby.
Marc:So I drove away and Dr. Gooey called me, said it's exactly what we thought it was.
Marc:It's a clogged salivary gland.
Marc:It was just big and everything's okay.
Marc:And thank God.
Marc:But that terror that existed before hearing that news of that's the way I'm going to go, that's what's going to happen to me.
Marc:The guy who makes a living off his mouth, his mouth is going to rot out.
Marc:That's how it's going to go down.
Marc:That terror just dissipated, obviously.
Marc:I'm grateful that it is what it is and it isn't what I thought it was, right?
Marc:And I get a little relief from that, but how am I going to change my life?
Marc:Like, I'm never going to go back to nicotine and lozenges.
Marc:I'm not going to dip anymore.
Marc:That's just stupid.
Marc:I guess I won't smoke any more cigars either.
Marc:It's just like these are one of those lessons.
Marc:Not even if this wasn't caused by that shit.
Marc:Like they start cutting shit out of you, you start to make compromises, right?
Marc:Isn't that the way it's supposed to go?
Marc:You lose a thing, maybe you live differently.
Marc:Is that it?
Marc:Is that the saying?
Marc:If something is removed because of something you did, try not to do that anymore.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Isn't that the bumper sticker?
Marc:So what's going on?
Marc:Went over to the lot, to the sound stages for GLOW to do a fitting to try on all my new wonderful 80s shirts and
Marc:For the upcoming season.
Marc:And try on some new pants.
Marc:Say hello to the folks.
Marc:Ran into Alison Brie.
Marc:She's looking lean and mean.
Marc:I mean really.
Marc:She's all muscle that chick.
Marc:But we're excited.
Marc:It's going to be fun.
Marc:Also, really astounded and excited by all the feedback coming back from my special, Too Real on Netflix.
Marc:That will be there.
Marc:Too Real will remain there on Netflix for you to watch.
Marc:And you can get my last special, More Later, at Epics On Demand, I believe, and also on iTunes.
Marc:I believe you can rent it or buy it on iTunes.
Marc:And the special before that, Thinkie Payne,
Marc:is on netflix and there is an evolution people there's an arc there there's a landing okay it all comes together it's all going to come together right in time for everything to end miserably for everyone that's upbeat i am mr upbeat today
Marc:George Schlatter.
Marc:This guy's a legend, and he's the real deal, and he's been in television for many years, and I think after you listen to this, we're probably making a new laugh in.
Marc:I'm not going to commit to that, but I think that's where this was going.
Marc:I believe that's what was happening during this conversation.
Marc:The 50th anniversary box set of all the laugh-ins is available.
Marc:I have it.
Marc:It's quite the time capsule.
Marc:It's on DVD.
Marc:Time Life has put it out.
Marc:You can get it now.
Marc:And this is me and George Schlatter talking show business.
Music
Marc:You know, in terms of like a joke junkie, and you don't feel like you can keep up, but we're talking about technology, but you're just saying the power of the joke, is it diminished because there's so much shit going on?
Guest:It's intimidating.
Guest:I thought the other day, I thought we're going to do a whole new thing.
Guest:We may do a new laugh-in.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, and I thought, you know what I'm going to do?
Guest:I'm going to come up with another way to do commercials.
Guest:And I went through this whole thing about how I could get Sacha Baron to come in and do interrupt commercials and do non-commercial commercials.
Guest:I had a whole vast plan, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I was really proud of myself until I picked up this morning's new LA Times, and they're doing it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're doing it in real life.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:No, they just talked about... Or as a comedy show.
Marc:You're saying that real life has become so non-ironic and farcical that comedy becomes difficult.
Guest:Comedy becomes reality.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If you just look this morning...
Guest:You can't beat this Monty Python in Washington.
Guest:I know.
Marc:So what do we do?
Marc:Are we all supposed to get serious now?
Marc:I mean, I find that, you know, laughing was a part of my childhood.
Marc:I'm 53.
Marc:So I remember seeing it.
Marc:I remember it represented that there's a different world out there.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because I was I was a kid.
Marc:I was.
Marc:What was it?
Marc:What year?
Guest:It was 1968 when we did the pilot.
Marc:All right, so America is coming unglued.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It's a fucking blood in the streets insanity.
Guest:It's overdue to do it again.
Marc:Vietnam is at fever pitch.
Marc:The country is turning on it, and it's coming unhinged.
Marc:And then this comes out, and it provides some satirical relief, but also I imagine for that side of things, the left, it was sort of like, well, thank God at least we got a voice in show business.
Guest:And the thing was, they never really understood what we were doing until it was too late.
Guest:Well, who didn't?
Guest:The networks and the sponsors and so forth.
Guest:And once we said it, then we went on to something else.
Guest:And then they thought about it and said, wait a minute, what did they just say?
Guest:And we were doing a thing the other day.
Guest:I read how much money they're spending to promote and develop tobacco and how many people are dying.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I looked back and I saw the salute we did to smoking.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we said, Smoke King is good for you, no matter what they say.
Guest:Smoke King is good for you, so just ignore the AMA.
Guest:And then you cut to Dan Rowan, and he says, sure, I save the coupons.
Guest:How do you got this?
Guest:Well, iron lung.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:And the network said, you can't put that.
Guest:We have tobacco sponsors.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:And I said, it's going to go on.
Guest:I'll lose them.
Guest:Anyway, the sponsors wanted to stay on that show because they wanted the rating.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They didn't mind what we were saying.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That piece today is on the front page.
Guest:So nothing, we haven't learned anything.
Marc:Right.
Marc:We haven't learned anything.
Marc:Well, the one thing we've learned is that corporate power trumps everything.
Marc:Capitalism trumps everything.
Marc:And if you can get enough suckers to buy your shit, then you'll keep selling it.
Guest:This is true.
Guest:Put that on a bumper sticker.
Guest:Suckers.
Guest:But it's now a science.
Guest:It's gone beyond reality.
Guest:When you read this morning's paper, you say, no, this is impossible.
Guest:Right.
Marc:No, I know, but it isn't.
Marc:And then you have to ask yourself, whose fault is this?
Marc:What the hell happened?
Marc:Has the bottom fallen out?
Marc:Is truth that tenuous?
Guest:Everybody's sold out.
Guest:We were blamed with the Smothers Brothers and laughing, partially for ending the Vietnam War because we kept harping on it.
Guest:And when people are laughing, they're learning.
Guest:So you can say anything with a joke.
Guest:that's right well the thing is is that as it has become more commodified you know they are laughing and learning but they they may not be doing anything with that education that's where we come in yeah oh yeah you got a team yeah i'm gonna say i'm gonna say we're just putting out this collection of laughing i know it's beautiful i just got the box did you get it okay i got it yesterday so i haven't watched all right all right i wanted to be sure you got i know what it looks like the box looks nice
Guest:Well, it's 144 shows plus one whole reel of outtakes.
Guest:Oh, great.
Guest:Party reels and so on.
Marc:Oh, those are funny.
Marc:Just like a lot of outtakes of Goldie Hawn laughing at things.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, they asked me if we could do a show of outtakes.
Guest:And I said, are you kidding?
Guest:I aired my outtakes.
Guest:Laughing was an outtake.
Marc:I know, I know.
Marc:I remember.
Guest:But see, can we do that?
Guest:Today we've developed new rules.
Guest:We've put up new barriers, new walls, and they're just ready to get knocked down.
Marc:Well, I think the issue really becomes about the outlets.
Marc:I think what you're talking about when you say you can't keep up is that content is available through so many different outlets, right?
Marc:So back in the day, and I'm nostalgic about three networks.
Marc:I mean, because then everybody was...
Marc:really on the same page give or take a show or two focused right that's right so you know you had a lot of eyes you had a lot of conversation you know you didn't have people isolated in bubbles or you know some people liked cbs some people like nbc but if a show was a show that people liked everybody watched the whole fucking country that's right that's right and now i you know i do a joke on stage about i say it's gotten to the point where someone will come up to me and ask me if i've seen a show and not only have i not heard of the show but when they tell me where it's on i don't know what that is that's right
Guest:That's our fault.
Guest:Is it?
Guest:Who's yours?
Guest:TV?
Guest:It's our fault.
Guest:Who are you representing here?
Guest:Well, the world.
Guest:We have become conformists.
Guest:All the non-conformists.
Guest:I want to be a non-conformist like everybody else.
Guest:Sure, right.
Guest:And we're letting them get by with it.
Guest:So my new thing...
Guest:I knew it was going to go light years.
Guest:Instead of trying to catch up, we've got to try to leapfrog over it, and then we own it again.
Marc:What does that look like?
Marc:I mean, it seems to me that I did a little bit of research.
Marc:There's a lot to do, so I figured if I could just get you talking, I don't have to be fucking responsible for it.
Guest:You got to blame somebody.
Marc:But you did do a show that seemed kind of foreshadowed something that didn't go.
Marc:Your first attempt at the variety show was something called Turn On.
Guest:It wasn't a first attempt.
Guest:That was once Laugh-In was a hit.
Guest:And I went in and I could do anything.
Guest:It was 60 years ago and I was, you know.
Guest:You're making money for the networks.
Guest:Well, I'm arrogant now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But do you want to see me with a 50 share?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, Jesus.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so we went in and we went in to deliberately do a show that would break all the rules.
Guest:And it was turn on.
Guest:And they bought it.
Guest:What was the premise?
Guest:The premise was just a blood.
Guest:It was like a computerized television show.
Guest:It all came in a computer.
Guest:And there was no audience.
Guest:The audience reactions were all sound effects.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And now at that time, given that computers are just, you know, we don't even look at them as unusual anymore.
Marc:They're just part of our life.
Marc:They're appendages, psychic appendages.
Marc:Like I imagine at that time, 1969, was it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what was the concept?
Marc:You know, the computer, was this a 2001 style?
Guest:We had two guys sitting in front of a computer.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Giant thing, right?
Guest:And he says, I've never programmed a program before.
Guest:And he's heard computer sounds.
Guest:And it was all of this stuff that at that point you couldn't even do.
Marc:Like a movie.
Marc:Moog synthesizer.
Guest:Yeah, that was it.
Guest:And the Moog synthesizer, you're the only one that remembers that.
Guest:Moog synthesizer was the soundtrack.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:There was like one guy that could play one of those.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And so we scored the show.
Guest:We scored the show with the Moog synthesizer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when they saw the pilot, they increased the buy.
Guest:They went from 13 to 18.
Guest:And it was Bristol Myers.
Guest:Who was the star?
Guest:Who was the cat?
Guest:There was none.
Guest:It was just all, you know, the opening of the show was a little old lady on a motorcycle.
Guest:She says, hi, boys and girls, time to turn on.
Guest:And she gunned the motorcycle and went back through a wall.
Guest:always funny that would be funny today George it's always funny you put an old person on a vehicle you hurt a little old lady and you're a winner but the thing was the thing was there was a guy in Cleveland some brain donor owned a station back there and he wanted to keep Peyton Place on the air and turn on replace Peyton Place so he called all of the affiliates and said we can't allow this to happen so he called the affiliates and as the show aired in New York and came across the country they were canceling at one station
Guest:at a time.
Marc:Was that a political move or just a guy that liked Peyton Place?
Guest:Yeah, he liked Peyton Place and he also did not like that this didn't have a political base.
Guest:It had no base.
Guest:What it was was looking funny at everything.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:And so anyway, it was canceled by the time it got to California.
Guest:And I had told him, I said, let's put it on the air and then I'll back off a little bit and we'll do a thing about it being canceled.
Guest:I laid it all out.
Guest:The only thing was it came true.
Guest:So it didn't even air really.
Guest:What air
Guest:one episode no it aired one episode in new york yeah and by the time it got to california it had been canceled and it was we had tim conway trying to commit suicide and it had a nun trying to break into a vending machine that said the pill on i mean there were things that would be how is that not political well it was you sought to piss off exactly who you pissed off well you know
Marc:But no, I definitely appreciate that, but it seems to me that the programmer who had the syndicated stations was like, fuck these hippies.
Marc:But see, anger is one of the emotions that's okay to stimulate.
Marc:I got no problem with it, but I'm just wondering.
Guest:You make a living on it, what do you mean?
Marc:But I'm just wondering if I'm just trying to cite whether or not the reason it didn't have a life was because of conservative forces.
Guest:yeah yeah and it was because this one guy and it was it was pretty shocking and then but i said we'd back off the next week there was no next week that was it one of my proudest accomplishments but but laughing was still on so you didn't laughing was still on laughing was still on laughing got a 50 share we were getting that doesn't even that those words don't even aren't even said anymore no one knows what that is and like how like those it's it's like the henry ford shit
Marc:Like, you know, like when did that happen?
Guest:Well, yeah, and see, I was arrogant today as trying to say fuck on the air.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That, no, we tried to avoid it.
Guest:We did the Farkle family, and we did look that up in your Funkin' Wagon, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So we never did get to that, but we always, there was always the threat.
Marc:Where did you start?
Marc:I mean, how did it start for you in show business?
Guest:Where did you come from?
Guest:Well, where you came from is more colorful than where I came from.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:What, a Jewish family from Albuquerque?
Guest:Stop it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, they started in Jersey.
Guest:Started in Jersey.
Guest:Everybody does.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Yeah, one of the places.
Marc:Jersey, Lower East Side.
Marc:Actually, Jersey's the second stop, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And so you wound up here in this wonderful place.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:You're Jewish?
Guest:No, I wanted to be, but the operation scared me.
Guest:i can't spare anyway but i mean it's a long long story my mother was a concert violinist my aunt was a concert pianist i worked with the st louis municipal opera when i was a kid you grew up in st louis yeah pre-arch st louis well yeah and uh then we spent some time in east st louis yeah i was the last white guy out of east st louis uh-huh that was colorful but then we came out here the story the story will take up your whole program i get very boring
Marc:Well, we've met a few times.
Marc:I feel like I've done a show of yours at some point.
Guest:Oh, I'm sure you have.
Guest:You could be my kid.
Marc:Yeah, I feel like I met you at the Laugh Factory years ago.
Marc:You were producing something.
Marc:It's just the comedy people.
Guest:One of my jobs was at Ciro's, and Ciro's became the comedy store.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Well, that fascinates me.
Marc:I know you know my buddy Cliff Nesterov.
Marc:What a piece of work he is.
Marc:Has he moved into your house yet?
Guest:He's trying to.
Guest:What a piece of work.
Guest:The condition is that I would move out.
Marc:Yeah, okay.
Guest:What a piece of work he is.
Guest:Can you imagine him walking into my office with that little silly hat?
Guest:With the silly hat and his curiosity?
Guest:Oh, God.
Marc:His nerd encyclopedia of the history of comedy, bringing up people, third or second stringers that only you would know.
Guest:He's the only person alive that knows some of those people.
Guest:Herky Stiles.
Guest:Who knew Herky Stiles but me?
Marc:Did you know Herky Stiles?
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:You know?
Marc:That's why Cliff loves you.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Cliff came in.
Guest:I was amazed that he had done the research he has.
Guest:Oh, he loves it.
Guest:He loves it.
Guest:Get him to play the interview we did one night.
Guest:They almost closed the place.
Guest:But he is as knowledgeable as anybody about the history of show business.
Marc:Well, I think he's a new generation of that, and it doesn't really exist anymore.
Marc:There were guys that used to do what he does years ago, but I don't think there's anybody as curious and as thorough with it and making sure the legacy of these...
Marc:These B-level comics is intact.
Guest:But see, they were, B-level, B-level is a definition, a description.
Marc:Well, I just mean guys that people don't know.
Guest:That's it, that's it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, that's a better description.
Guest:I remember one time we were doing a comedy awards and I wanted to book, well, B.S.
Guest:Pulley was another guy that I knew very well, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What's he famous for?
Guest:You know what the BS stands for.
Guest:BS Poet was the most obscene comic in the world, you know, other than The Woman.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The Woman?
Guest:Which one?
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:I'll tell you in a minute.
Guest:See, the memory's the third thing to go.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, sure.
Marc:That's sad.
Marc:It should be the first.
Guest:I know it's not, unfortunately.
Guest:First thing went twice.
Guest:By the way, I'm having a hell of a good time in here.
Guest:I like this little environment.
Guest:It's not too hot?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:On the way out here, I was trying to figure out how to move you into town.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:But it would be pointless.
Guest:No, I don't want to go back.
Guest:This only works here.
Guest:It is.
Guest:Yeah, you got to take the full trip.
Guest:B.S.
Guest:Pulley.
Guest:B.S.
Guest:Pulley.
Guest:Well, their mom's Mabley was in there.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And Bell Barth was the other one.
Guest:B.S.
Guest:Pulley and Bell Barth worked one night together at the Macombo in the Stoneshead Strip.
Guest:The most obscene language you've ever heard in your life.
Guest:But he was funny.
Marc:But that existed, and people don't know about that guy.
Guest:Well, they don't, unfortunately.
Guest:It's just as well that they don't, because now today, the use of the language is abused.
Guest:Once you drop the F-bomb on a stage, you can't say anything else.
Guest:That is the joke.
Marc:Right, but you know what you don't get is that at that time, and I still think at this time, when you're in a live situation and somebody's out there on the ice doing dirty shit, it still has an impact.
Marc:You know, like it still feels kind of weird and kind of electric and kind of wrong.
Marc:Like I can imagine seeing people like that back in the day on the strip, even Red Fox, you know, early Richard Pryor, you know, or Lenny Bruce.
Marc:I don't know if you knew Lenny Bruce.
Marc:Those are all my buddies.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So like I would imagine seeing Lenny, whether he was funny or not, was a very visceral and raw thing.
Marc:Like you knew you were kind of like something's happening with this guy.
Guest:Lenny didn't get in trouble, by the way, for dirty language.
Guest:He got in trouble because he pissed off a judge, right?
Guest:No, it was religion.
Guest:Religion was what hung up Lenny.
Marc:What, the Catholics?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, his jokes about religion, about the Pope, and about Jesus, you know, that's what they couldn't tolerate.
Guest:The language they could tolerate.
Guest:They could have worked with the language.
Guest:They could have worked with the language.
Guest:Lay off of Jesus.
Guest:If he had just left God alone, he'd still be around.
Marc:But did you know him through the transition?
Marc:Did you know him before he... A little bit, yeah.
Guest:I didn't know him real well.
Guest:I was working at Ciro's and Crescendo.
Marc:What year was that when you were at Ciro's?
Marc:It must have been right before it became nothing.
Marc:Wasn't there a period there where it was just empty in a rent space?
Guest:No, it was the...
Guest:Best club.
Guest:Yeah, but after.
Guest:After that, then what happened was business changed.
Guest:And so I convinced the owner to turn the main room into a restaurant and take that little room in back and turn it into a little nightclub, a little place.
Guest:That became the Sirouette Room.
Guest:And the opening show was Diane Carroll and Jimmy Comek.
Guest:Doing what?
Guest:Doing comedy, just as that little room.
Guest:In the original room.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's the original room now, before the comedy store became the comedy store.
Guest:The front room was a restaurant.
Guest:The front room used to be Ciro's.
Guest:The big room.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The main room.
Guest:Martin and Lewis and Danny Thomas and everybody worked there.
Guest:What year were you there managing it?
Guest:Must have been 52, something like that.
Marc:And who were the headlining acts?
Guest:Martin Lewis, Danny Thomas, you know, all of them.
Guest:And Red Skelton.
Marc:Red Skelton?
Guest:Yeah, Red Skelton.
Guest:And Danny Thomas?
Guest:Red Skelton was interesting.
Guest:He had this whole God image, you know.
Guest:But his dress rehearsal was the filthiest thing you ever saw in your life.
Guest:And he had this wonderful, God love, you know.
Guest:And so one day they taped it by accident.
Guest:They weren't supposed to.
Guest:He fired the whole staff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But Red was a piece of work.
Guest:Yeah, Red Skelton was?
Marc:How so?
Marc:I remember watching his show when I was a kid, the variety show.
Marc:He'd come out as the clown and did the faces.
Guest:God love.
Guest:How was he a piece of work?
Guest:Well, there were two Red Skelton.
Guest:There was the onstage Red Skelton and there was the after hours Red Skelton.
Guest:And I imagine you saw that with a lot of people.
Guest:A lot.
Guest:Danny Thomas also wasn't quite the Jesus freak he pretended to be.
Marc:Who the hell did I talk to?
Marc:Was it Norman Lear who started writing for Danny Thomas?
Guest:Was that who it was?
Guest:Simmons and Lear, yeah.
Marc:Okay, good.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I'm glad I have some memory.
Marc:Mine's going too.
Guest:That's good, that's good.
Guest:But Norman Lear, Norman Lear is a godsend.
Guest:We should thank whoever created Norman Lear, we should thank him.
Marc:But so like this onstage, offstage thing is sort of fascinating.
Marc:Given that I've been in show business now for like more than half of my life, part of what makes show business great, it's not so much the parties, but it's actually backstage.
Marc:Just being backstage, knowing that you're about to enter that other space.
Marc:And obviously how people use that backstage space can vary, you know, and there's extreme.
Marc:So what, Red Skelton was a drinker?
Guest:Well, he did a lot of stuff.
Guest:I mean, he was a lovely man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But his offstage material and language was much different than the image he had on stage.
Guest:So it was Danny Thomas.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But was it funnier?
Guest:Was it better?
Guest:Oh, it was...
Guest:It was much better if you were like nine years old.
Guest:And I did the first Danny Thomas specials.
Guest:And so I remember we were going up to Vegas to book one of the shows.
Guest:As we're getting on the plane, he kisses his hand.
Guest:He goes, goodbye, God.
Guest:I'll see you when I get back from Vegas.
Guest:And he did.
Marc:Well, are all those stories true about Danny Thomas?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It would have been possible for anybody to live up to the stories about Danny Thomas.
Guest:It's kind of crazy.
Guest:And Milton Berle.
Guest:Milton Berle's the one that nobody could have lived up to.
Marc:But he was sort of shameless about it.
Marc:He used to wave his dick around, didn't he?
Guest:I'm the only person I know that ever saw it real.
Marc:I thought a lot of people saw it.
Guest:Well, not like this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What did you do, George?
Guest:I was like nine years old.
Guest:I was producing the Dinah Shore show.
Guest:Dinah wanted to do more comedy, and my whole background was comedy.
Guest:So I'm producing my first show as Milton Berle.
Marc:With Dinah Shore?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Milton Berle walks in, closes the door, and drops his pants and his shorts.
Guest:And I see this anaconda.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And he inserts a suppository that looked like a submarine.
Guest:And he said, oh, boy, these things are killing me.
Guest:And then he said, now, what did you want to talk about?
Guest:You can't after you've seen that.
Guest:And then for the next five days, he'd slap me on the cheek.
Guest:And he said, how old are you?
Guest:How old are you?
Guest:You're going to tell the king?
Guest:How old are you?
Guest:And finally, after about a week of this, I said, Mr. Burrell, I'm not very old, and I wouldn't ever tell the king what's funny, but if you touch me once more, I'm going to knock you on your ass, and I know I'll get a laugh.
Guest:The greatest moment, he looked at me, and he said, what took you so long?
Guest:He wanted me to stand up to him.
Guest:He was a piece of work.
Guest:Do you think he was great?
Marc:oh yeah oh milton burr was one of the greatest technicians of all time in terms of uh joke craft timing and craft and i mean he taught comedy he was he was brilliant and at that time like you know there's a lot of conversation this is something that's interesting to me uh somewhat is that you know over the last decade the idea of joke theft uh has become sort of paramount in uh in attacking people sure
Marc:Which, you know, is understandable.
Marc:If someone has an original bit, you know, fuck it.
Marc:You know, you don't want to steal it.
Marc:But, you know, you read Cliff's book, or I'm sure you've seen, that all those guys back then were sharing jokes.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, it was—see, but you didn't have—back then, somebody would do a joke at the Copa in New York, and two hours later, it would be on stage at Ciro's.
Guest:But there wasn't the communication.
Guest:Now, there's this wealth of access to everybody's material.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But also, it wasn't until the late 50s and the 60s that you got these guys who were point-of-view comics, who were personality-driven, who the premium was put on creating your own material.
Marc:I mean, that didn't really happen till later, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But you didn't really have the windows until later.
Guest:As television came along, you had more ability to put it out in the window.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Comedy is such a fragile thing, but it's a valuable part of our environment.
Guest:That's why I'm proud to view what you're doing here.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:Now, tell me about the Variety Show, because when you were at Ciro's or wherever, was that your first job in show business, Ciro's?
Guest:Well, I'd been with the... It's a really long story.
Guest:I started out booking piano players for MCA.
Guest:Oh, so you were like a manager, an agent?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Piano players at bars and shit?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Clubs?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Got a gig for you in Vegas in the lounge kind of shit?
Guest:That's right.
Guest:While I was out late at night, I couldn't make any money on piano players, so I started booking strippers, and I was working for MCA, and when MCA found out I was booking strippers, they were livid.
Marc:Booking strippers where?
Guest:All over, all over.
Guest:I had like a thing.
Guest:Like a route where they were all working.
Marc:But there weren't strip clubs then.
Marc:They were burlesque clubs.
Guest:They were strip clubs.
Guest:They were not like they are now.
Guest:They were more in the shower.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They weren't.
Guest:My history is somewhat colorful.
Marc:Not as colorful as yours, by the way.
Marc:That's not true.
Marc:That's not true.
Marc:Yours is much more colorful.
Marc:You're older than me, and you were here when it was a small, dirty world.
Marc:And I'm still here.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And guess what?
Guest:What?
Guest:To me, now, this sounds weird.
Guest:I think this is the beginning.
Guest:I think we have such a window now with all the new media and all the new devices and all the new technology and subject matter and access to information.
Guest:If we use it right, we can really revolutionize the whole world for the better.
Guest:Because the comics are what will make our survival.
Marc:They'll certainly help.
Marc:there's got to be some i think they're functioning as a pretty good check on power you know but it is uh again the fragment fragmented media landscape i don't know i want to believe you uh but but i think that market forces uh you know are more powerful in that they keep making new outlets and new ideas and new things and new rules right and they keep paying people less and less and then you know they get you on the whatever
Marc:you know yeah i i'm nostalgic for a time not only for three networks but when hollywood like because like i look at like uh like the the dinosaur show that you did that you did how many years of that it's a lot of years a lot of years i also did the judy garland show well those two shows when you look at the list of guest stars yeah see these are people that that you basically put on the entire neighborhood
Marc:of Hollywood.
Marc:And whoever was still alive and still around, whether they were working or they weren't working, stars from movies, comics, singers.
Marc:And there were hundreds of them.
Marc:And in my mind, they hold this mythic place because no one knows them anymore.
Marc:You know, like if you go and you look at the list of people...
Marc:Like, oh, my God, just for Dinah Shore, Edie Adams, Julie Andrews, Paul Anka, Eve Arden, Cliff Arquette, Pearl Bailey, Tony Bennett, Polly Burke, Joey Bishop, Pat Boone.
Marc:You look at this list, and you must have had the whole town in.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And we did it once a week on Sunday night, and we did it live.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And everybody seemed like, am I wrong in thinking that everyone knew each other?
Marc:It was a community.
Marc:The business was smaller and everybody was.
Guest:You got it.
Guest:That's it.
Marc:And like it was a new business in a way.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Now it's so vast.
Guest:And there's so many agents and managers and.
Guest:And it's so fragmented.
Marc:I guess like, you know, when you watch those roasts or whatever, you know, you're sort of like, I really wanted to believe that everybody knew each other and everybody kind of.
Guest:They did.
Guest:They did.
Guest:They did.
Guest:But I saw the, you know, see, it's not gone.
Guest:It's just different.
Guest:And what we need, what we need is a real revolutionary.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And maybe my time has finally arrived.
Marc:Mahalia Jackson you had on there many times.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And Michael Jackson.
Guest:She was a great singer.
Guest:Huh?
Guest:Great singer, huh?
Guest:Pearl Bailey.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Al Hurt.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But what happened at like the variety show in it?
Marc:Because when I grew up, I remember what do I remember?
Marc:I remember laughing.
Marc:I remember the Smothers Brothers a little bit.
Marc:But I remember Sonny and Cher, Tony Orlando and Don.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You know, Carol Burnett show.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That format.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You know, when did that come to be?
Marc:Like, when did that, you know, how is that the format?
Guest:It grew out of vaudeville, and some of it grew out of burlesque and so forth, but it grew out of vaudeville, and they would come in and they would bring, you know, now today, nobody wants to do their hit.
Guest:Somebody, they want to introduce their next song.
Guest:So you don't have the magic we had then.
Guest:They would come in and sing whatever it was that was familiar, whatever it was they were famous for.
Marc:But the idea was you had a host or a celebrity-driven thing where you'd have some dancing, you'd have some singing, you'd do a couple comedy sketches, maybe a little stand-up.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:It was a golden time.
Marc:And there was tons of it, and that was your bread and butter.
Marc:You were the guy, right?
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And why do you think that format didn't hold up?
Guest:Because the business changed so much, you know, and then Vegas happened.
Guest:What happened in Vegas?
Guest:Well, when Vegas—see, when Vegas happened, Vegas was only about four clubs in the old days.
Guest:I used to work at the Frontier Hotel in Vegas, too, when Vegas was like— Doing what?
Guest:I was a booker at the Frontier Hotel, and it was like when Vegas was Vegas—
Marc:My grandmother once said, it was nicer when the boys ran things.
Marc:It was cleaner.
Guest:It was easier.
Guest:Everything could be done.
Guest:So I, as a result, had some friends in Vegas.
Guest:I was like 19 years old.
Guest:But I knew everybody, and I could fix anything.
Marc:What were the problems?
Guest:Whatever the problem was, whether it was a girl or money or whatever, or a problem.
Guest:Drugs.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So I'd done a favor for them one time, and a guy came to me.
Guest:I think his name was Fungi.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he said, I want to talk to yous.
Guest:I said, how are you doing, Mr. Fungi?
Guest:He said, look, we're very grateful to yous for what yous did.
Guest:I said, good, that's fine.
Guest:I said, we're grateful for you.
Guest:We want to do something for yous.
Guest:I said, well, you don't have to.
Guest:I'm fine.
Guest:No, we're grateful.
Guest:You don't understand, do we?
Guest:He says, we want to do something for you.
Guest:What do you need?
Guest:I said, I don't need anything.
Guest:I'm glad I could help.
Guest:And that's it.
Guest:He said, well, okay, what do you want?
Guest:I don't want.
Guest:Look, I'm glad I could help.
Guest:Okay, who don't you like?
Guest:Now, when somebody asks you that, you get very nervous.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I bet.
Guest:But it was a very colorful time in Vegas.
Marc:Well, did you know at that time, I never got to talk to Shacky Green or Buddy Hackett or any of those guys.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Those were all buddies.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And my grandparents would go to Vegas, and it used to mean something.
Marc:They used to love it.
Marc:They used to feel like you were special just when you went there.
Guest:Yeah, well, it was.
Guest:People got dressed up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And was it like when you saw, because you've done shows with Sammy Davis, you've done shows with Frank Sinatra and stuff.
Marc:I mean, was it different?
Guest:It was a sense of community.
Guest:They were all friends.
Guest:And after Sinatra's show, we would all go over to the thing.
Guest:We'd see the late night show with Rickles or with Louis Prima.
Guest:And there was a feeling of family.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It wasn't so big.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And everybody was hanging out.
Marc:Everyone was eating together.
Guest:Everybody knew everybody.
Guest:Everybody hung out together.
Guest:It was a very colorful time.
Marc:And was Shecky as crazy as everyone says?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, Shecky's big thing is he said that Frank Sinatra saved his life.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:That's enough.
Guest:Go ahead.
Guest:Tell it.
Guest:But it was like he had done something, and they were beating up on him, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And so Frank walked in, and he said, that's enough.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's enough, fellas.
Guest:So he saved his life.
Guest:Shecky is still one of the funniest people in the world.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I wanted to interview him.
Guest:Why not?
Guest:Why didn't he do it?
Guest:Because he was mad at Cliff.
Guest:Why?
Guest:It's a crazy story.
Guest:Well, you could get mad at Cliff.
Guest:There's a whole list of reasons why you could get it.
Guest:He's a pest.
Guest:Not only that, but he's so...
Marc:damn accurate yeah well he well that's the thing and i say pest with love but but like i read a piece that uh that cliff wrote on shecky and it was all about the driving the car into the fountain the fight this is all true right and you know i it reminded me like you know i wanted to go out take a drive out and interview shecky green i was doing a lot of the old guys and i thought that would be great right and i and i you know and i and i read the article and i asked and i emailed the website shecky green's website looked like it hadn't been touched in a decade
Marc:Right.
Marc:So I email info at Shecky Green.
Marc:And about a week later, I get I get an email back.
Marc:It says, Shecky, you'll do your show.
Marc:This is his phone number.
Marc:Don't tell anybody.
Marc:Don't give his number out.
Marc:Like, who the hell is asking me for Shecky Green?
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So I forget about it.
Marc:And I like a few months later, I call the number and say, hello.
Marc:And I'm like, I'm looking for Shecky Green.
Marc:He's like, who's this?
Marc:I said, I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:I emailed you about a podcast.
Marc:It's like a radio show.
Marc:I thought you were interested in being interviewed.
Marc:I'm not doing any more interviews.
Marc:No more interviews.
Marc:I don't know where the fuck that guy got that stuff.
Marc:Like, he's going off.
Marc:And I just happened to know there was only one thing he could be talking about, and that's Cliff's piece.
Guest:Cliff, yeah.
Marc:So so I said, I don't know anything about that.
Marc:He goes, where do you get his fucking information?
Marc:Where do you get that fucking information?
Marc:Probably from Shaggy.
Marc:Well, here's the thing.
Marc:He says he didn't say nothing about the charities.
Marc:Nothing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So he's yelling at me and I go, look, all right.
Marc:Well, OK, I understand.
Marc:Let me let me see if I can figure out what's going on here.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So I'd never met Cliff before and I'd never talked to him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And this is the first exchange.
Marc:Maybe I'd emailed him.
Marc:He's a lovely guy.
Marc:No, I love him.
Marc:I had him in here.
Marc:I talked to him all the time.
Marc:So I email Cliff.
Marc:I say, look, I just talked to Shacky Green.
Marc:He's furious, and he wants to know where the hell you got that information.
Marc:And I shoot that email off, and two seconds later, email comes back.
Guest:He told me.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Absolutely right.
Guest:And it was all true.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Driving the car into the fountain, it was all...
Marc:I think these guys get concerned about their legacy.
Marc:Like, you know, it's like, okay, I did this crazy shit, but I also did this other shit to balance it out.
Marc:You know, it's that same thing you're talking about offstage and onstage is that, you know, they're monsters.
Marc:They get known as monsters, but, you know, they want balance.
Guest:But their imbalance is their charm.
Guest:Well, I know, but they want history.
Guest:Checking green is not what you put in the window in the mental health monthly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Marc:But you worked with people like Pryor.
Marc:You did a show with Pryor later on.
Marc:I mean, at what phase was he at?
Guest:Oh, I worked when he was just a baby in the village.
Marc:You were in the village too?
Guest:What are you, Zelig?
Guest:No, I was all over the place.
Guest:What were you doing in the village?
Guest:You working with Manny Roth?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You know a lot of people.
Guest:But that's when I first met Richard.
Guest:And Richard was working in a little club in the village.
Guest:And Richard occasionally used artificial stimulants, you know.
Guest:I heard that.
Guest:And so if people were talking, he would get angry and he would lie on his back on the piano and do the whole show to the ceiling.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that was before he broke out, right?
Marc:That was when he was still doing like a more watered down version, more Cosby-ish.
Guest:Yeah, well, Cosby took a lot from Richard.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.
Guest:So it went back the other way.
Guest:That's what everybody said.
Guest:Well, there's a lot of myths about Cosby, you know?
Guest:Yeah, one of them's turning out to be true.
Marc:What was he, crazy?
Marc:Something, sick.
Marc:He was sick.
Marc:There's definitely, you know, it's not a sympathetic position.
Guest:It's horrible.
Guest:Richard was funny, and he was very funny.
Guest:He was also troubled, you know?
Marc:Yeah, Manny Roth, the reason I know Manny Roth...
Marc:Is because when I started doing comedy in the late 80s, Rafi DeLugoff, Art DeLugoff's son.
Guest:Oh, there's a credit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Had begun booking some comedy at the gate, which was sort of falling off.
Marc:And there was weekend shows at the gate.
Marc:And Manny Roth, I don't know what his affiliation was, but he was hanging around, you know, and he was in his 80s probably, you know, and he said he always used to say I was Richard Pryor's first manager.
Marc:I owned the Cafe Waugh originally and whatever else he did.
Marc:So he was just one of those guys I met when I started out who was this old timer.
Marc:But he was the real deal, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you knew all those guys.
Guest:Oh, I worked with all of those guys.
Guest:And I mean, and I enjoyed them.
Guest:And of course, Red Fox.
Guest:I did Red Fox's first time on network television.
Guest:I think he might be one of the funniest people that ever lived.
Guest:Is one of the funniest.
Guest:Also one of the meanest.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Did you ever hear the thing he did on The Grand Wizard?
Guest:No.
Guest:I did a show called Soul, and it was the first all-black variety show.
Guest:How long did that last?
Guest:One show.
LAUGHTER
Marc:What year was that?
Guest:Oh, it was around maybe 70-something.
Guest:Why the fuck didn't that take?
Guest:Well, you'll know.
Guest:I couldn't sell it.
Guest:Matter of fact, the show did very well.
Guest:They ran it, and the network didn't buy it as a series because they said they couldn't cancel it because the reaction was so intense.
Guest:Red Fox did a thing.
Guest:What do I wish for the Grand Wizard?
Guest:I wish for the Grand Wizard a five-car accident with no survivors, and the fire hydrants froze over from Nome to Nova Scotia, and the Grand Wizard being the fire, and they buried the Grand Wizard in a plain brown box, and the possums crawling around looking for something strange to eat, and made a glorious type of Grand Wizard with a bolt of lightning through the heart.
Guest:Just on and on.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It goes on and on.
Guest:The Grand Wizard.
Guest:Oh, anyway.
Guest:But Red Fox was really funny, but also disturbed.
Guest:I did a lot of stuff with Red.
Guest:I did a movie with Red.
Guest:I did the only movie ever done on videotape at the time.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:What was it?
Guest:It's called Norman, Is That You?
Guest:It was Red Fox and Pearl Bailey.
Guest:Yeah, what was the angle?
Guest:Well, here you go again.
Guest:See, you were touching on all the things where I got in trouble.
Guest:This was a couple.
Guest:It was a white guy and a black guy, and they were a gay couple.
Guest:And Red Foxx was married to Pearl Bailey and came to Los Angeles to console his son because his wife had run off with somebody.
Guest:And that's the basic, and they find out that his son is gay.
Guest:And when they find out, he walks in with this big, huge, gorgeous hooker.
Guest:And Pearl Bailey says, Norman, is that you?
Guest:But it was really funny.
Guest:But the reaction was so intense, they thought they could never.
Guest:It was a film?
Guest:Yeah, it was a film done on videotape.
Guest:It was the first movie done on videotape.
Guest:What year was that?
Guest:Oh, God, it had to be about 70, something like that, 72 or something.
Guest:Really?
Guest:See, and the thing is, the thing is that where you are right now is right on the brink, right on the threshold of a whole new kind of show business.
Guest:Because there are no rules anymore.
Guest:Nobody has rules.
Guest:Apparently.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And boy, the sky's the limit with what you can do now.
Marc:But what's interesting, though, is what you're saying is that I understand the sky's the limit, but really, and I think it's optimistic and it's hopeful and I appreciate it, the sky's the limit in a sea of garbage.
Guest:Yeah, but see, the limit is not language.
Guest:The limit is not being able to use the F word.
Guest:I know that.
Guest:The limit is being able to put Obama on the shelf.
Marc:No, I get that.
Marc:But sadly, it seems to me, having just watched a 10-part documentary on Vietnam, that the cultural and political opposition to what our side or our ilk is looking at is really the same as it was in the 60s.
Marc:It was invented in the 60s.
Marc:Nixon's silent majority, the legacy of that is now in control of our government in our country.
Guest:I don't think it's in control.
Guest:I think it's only in control because we let it be.
Marc:Yeah, because of the messaging.
Guest:We let it be.
Marc:But what I'm saying is that the pushback is not unlike what you were originally pushing back against.
Guest:It's the same thing.
Guest:It's the same shit.
Guest:They just need somebody with enough huevos that doesn't care about losing the job to come in and have fun.
Guest:See, the thing is, anger isn't what you need.
Guest:You need humor.
Guest:You need fun.
Guest:You need playful.
Guest:You need something.
Marc:Well, let me ask you this then, you know, having, you know, worked in all these, did you know Woody Allen when he was starting?
Guest:Very well, yeah.
Marc:So you were in the village, you were doing all this stuff previous, you were booking CROs, you saw the transition of old timey show business into the 60s, you shepherded it in, you and Dennis Hopper and Hal Ashby and those guys.
Marc:But, you know, the transition was that TV didn't know what to do.
Marc:Movies didn't know what to do.
Marc:So that's where you get Easy Rider, Five Easy Pieces, Laugh in the Smothers Brothers.
Marc:So there was a cultural shift that was leaning left and pushing up against what Lenny had laid out to begin with.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We knew what to do.
Guest:It was just somebody having the huevos to do it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So what what what it seems to me that, you know, given that the movie you just told me about in 1972, that from early on, at some point you said, fuck these assholes.
Guest:No, let's go.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I said, I love you.
Guest:I want to help you.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:Once you say, fuck you, the fight is over.
Guest:You got to say, hey, babe, I love you.
Guest:What do you need?
Guest:And then do whatever you want.
Guest:You lie to him and you can get by with it.
Marc:Yeah, well, that goes on both sides, buddy.
Guest:Oh, well, it does, except for the fact that they've got a day job.
Guest:We can stay up all night long figuring out new and exciting diversions.
Marc:So when you started making Laugh-In, who was in the room?
Marc:What was the angle?
Guest:It was based upon a lie.
Guest:I had been doing a show called The Best on Record, which was the early Grammy Awards, and there was no award yet.
Guest:We couldn't even make the awards until we got the money from the show.
Guest:There was no Grammy Awards?
Guest:But no, it was called the Best on Record.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And every award we gave had Henry Mancini's name on it because we had no money to make awards.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I was pretty much given an award to anybody who'd show up.
Guest:And this was a show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it was doing very well, and NBC wanted to do it again.
Guest:And I said, no, guys, I've done it.
Guest:I don't want to do that anymore.
Guest:So I said, I'll do it one more year if you let me do one show my way with no interference.
Guest:So they said, okay.
Marc:So just backing up a little bit.
Marc:So basically your hustle and your thing in show business up to that point was creating these yearly or monthly, not just the variety shows, the weeklies, but you found that there was a racket in special shows.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that you could do it yearly or buy yearly and make some money and be entertaining and not risk a lot in the sense that it's not a great word because I would do anything I could sell.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was a racket.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I mean, you know, you're one of the great racket racketeers and raconteurs of show business.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So so that you know, that was how the beautiful thing about those things is if they hit, it's sort of like, we'll do another one next year.
Marc:And you're a genius.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, this was.
Guest:What happened is they agreed to let me do one show my way with no interference, no notes, no rules.
Guest:NBC.
Guest:NBC.
Guest:And so we came in with this show, and they said it was totally different.
Guest:When they saw the pilot of this thing and they went crazy, they said, what is this?
Guest:This is no television show.
Guest:68?
Guest:Yeah, this was 68.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I had made a deal with them where I could do one show my way, and they didn't have anything to put on after the Miss America contest.
Guest:And so they put this in just because they had nothing else to put on.
Guest:But they were convinced it was a disaster.
Guest:And they said, you're going to have to slow it down.
Guest:So I said, okay.
Guest:And so I took some more time out and tightened it up a little.
Guest:And then they looked at it and they laughed.
Guest:And I said, well, you laughed and the audience is smarter than you.
Guest:so anyhow they they put it on and it got a pretty good reaction no rating or anything but when they saw it they were angry they said what the hell is this this is no television show nothing makes sense you say we'll be right back and then you come right back i said you know and so i said yeah they said well this it doesn't make sense i said no you don't understand the newest thing on the continent they call it comedy verte i made it up yeah comedy this comedy verte we never heard of that i said see how new it is so god
Guest:It was Comedy Verite.
Guest:And they put it on and promoted it as Comedy Verite.
Guest:You look it up, you can't find it anywhere.
Marc:But, I mean, it makes sense that you're doing things that happen in the moment on television.
Guest:That's right, but it didn't make sense then because the whole thing was, you know, my wife was so, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so then it did well, and then they put it on as a series because they had nothing else, and it cost nothing.
Guest:The show was very, nobody on the show had never heard of anyone.
Guest:Who created it.
Guest:I did.
Guest:With Rowan and Martin?
Guest:No, Rowan and Martin.
Guest:See, the show was designed as just a happening, just with comics coming in.
Marc:Now, what blew your mind in the 60s?
Marc:Did you take some acid?
Marc:Did you go to San Francisco?
Marc:What are you calling it a happening?
Marc:Where are you getting at?
Marc:Well, it was just I was bored.
Marc:Right, but you weren't part of the, you didn't go investigate the counterculture?
Guest:I had been burned, and I'd taken so much painkiller that I couldn't do anything.
Guest:I still today can't do any kind of drugs.
Guest:It's sad, because I would have been a fun guy.
Marc:Yeah, well, you're pretty fun.
Marc:So you were just on the pulse of the counterculture?
Guest:Yeah, my own boredom prompted me into doing different things.
Guest:And when I did Dinah, it was the same thing with Judy Garland.
Guest:It was the same thing.
Guest:We did stuff with them that they hadn't done before.
Marc:What phase was Judy Garland when you started working with her?
Guest:She was great.
Marc:How old was she?
Guest:Was she in trouble?
Guest:She had just gone back with Sid.
Guest:Sid left.
Guest:I wanted to do the show, but I didn't know how to audition.
Guest:So I said I didn't meet her until after I was hired.
Guest:yeah so now my first meeting with judy garland she said so i said so you're judy garland she said so you're george slaughter i said i didn't know what to say yeah so i said i don't care what you may have heard there's no truth to the rumor that i'm difficult yeah and she said you're difficult i said see even you've heard about it from there we just had fun with her just great fun what made her great
Guest:It was magic.
Guest:Part of it was the unbalanced.
Guest:She was not a balanced person, but that enormity of that talent was so overwhelming and her magic, and she enjoyed the audience as much as they enjoyed her.
Guest:So just on all levels, she was funny, she could dance, she could sing, and she could drink a lot of white wine.
Guest:Yeah, and she was erratic.
Guest:She was erratic.
Guest:And then she had been married to Sid Luft.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was the problem.
Guest:He's a producer, right?
Guest:He was her husband.
Guest:I don't know what he was.
Guest:And so he said, you're going to do the Judy show?
Guest:And he said, I want you to know I was married to her, and I can tell her to do anything, and whatever you want, I'll handle it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I said, no.
Guest:I said, let me explain.
Guest:You're her husband.
Guest:I'm her producer.
Guest:I will never come in your house.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And that's where we started out.
Guest:And how long did you do her show?
Guest:I did six of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then Judy loved me, but the network thought I was not cooperative.
Guest:I mean, one of the things she sang, Old Man River.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they said, she can't sing Old Man River.
Guest:I said, she can sing the Lord's Prayer.
Guest:She can sing anything she want.
Guest:But they wanted a much more traditional variety show with guest stars and so on.
Guest:And this was an event.
Guest:They said, well, it's just too intense.
Guest:It's too high energy.
Guest:So then they fired me.
Guest:They brought in Norman Jewison.
Guest:Norman Jewison came in, looked at the six shows I'd done.
Guest:He said, those are perfect.
Guest:That's exactly what I do.
Guest:But in the meantime, I was gone.
Guest:Got a lot of money.
Marc:But so then you started to realize that, you know, that the suits didn't necessarily know everything.
Marc:I mean, did you always sort of know that?
Guest:You see, they're not the enemy.
Guest:That's jeopardy.
Guest:See, you can do something.
Guest:You can sit down at a typewriter and start from nothing and do something.
Guest:You can write.
Guest:You can read.
Guest:You can do.
Guest:And they don't have those skills.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you've got to sell them on the idea, and they don't know anything.
Marc:And then, like, they'll put a mental back.
Marc:What they'll do is, okay, so this sounds good.
Guest:I don't want to interrupt you.
Guest:You have to sell them that it's their idea.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's a big help.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Until it doesn't work and then they need someone to blame.
Marc:So they got to make sure they've got a network of people to blame.
Guest:That's it.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:You're the first one.
Marc:But then there's the guy, the other producer that's a part of their team.
Marc:He's going down.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:See, what do you want to do?
Guest:What do you want to do next?
Marc:Me?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because this is a temporary thing with you.
Marc:I just acted on a Netflix show.
Guest:I know.
Guest:A big hit, by the way.
Guest:Yeah, it seems to be.
Guest:It's a huge hit.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Can you imagine you with your background working with women wrestlers?
Guest:No.
Guest:Sweet Jesus, help me.
Guest:There's a lot of women I worked with.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It's all a big surprise to me, George.
Guest:It shouldn't be a big surprise.
Guest:You are a force field of energy and enthusiasm and fun, and there's always a place for that.
Guest:I like the fun part.
Guest:You are fun.
Guest:You're having a good time.
Guest:Okay, bring my girlfriend in, make sure she knows.
Guest:You could have a good time in an avalanche.
Marc:I mean, this isn't... See, you know, I must be a good hustler if you're putting this on me.
Marc:I'm the guy that causes the avalanche, George.
Guest:There's a lot to be said for that.
Guest:That's why I'm having a good time.
Guest:What do you want to do next?
Guest:Because it's unlimited where you're going to go.
Marc:Well, you know, I'm taking a little break.
Marc:I just did a stand-up special.
Marc:I did the show for Netflix.
Marc:I'd kind of like to do a nice little part in a movie.
Marc:That'd be fun.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, just something that works for me.
Marc:There's a few things.
Marc:I'd like to play some rock music.
Marc:My dreams are small, George.
Marc:Well, dream bigger.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:You want to give me a lesson in empire building?
Guest:You know what I would do?
Guest:First of all, we're talking about doing a new laugh-in.
Guest:And the time is right now because the facilities are there, technology is there.
Guest:I've got no money, George.
Guest:No, you don't have money.
Guest:You make money.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I thought you were pitching it to me.
Guest:No.
Marc:Make me think it's my idea.
Marc:Maybe I'll find some backers.
Guest:Hey, wait a minute.
Guest:Let me write that down.
Guest:No.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Take this, okay?
Guest:What?
Guest:People watch television now.
Guest:They don't watch it like we used to watch it.
Guest:No, they don't even watch it on television.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:They watch it on their cell phone.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Right?
Guest:So you can make it smaller?
Guest:You can make the set smaller?
Guest:That's right.
Guest:We used to have, I've got a 30-inch set.
Guest:Now I've got a 2-inch set.
Guest:What happened?
Guest:I don't know, people.
Guest:It takes less to occupy people's minds.
Guest:See, where is there nothing?
Guest:I mean, there's nothing on at 2 o'clock in the morning.
Marc:Oh, that's our market?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but that's beholden to time.
Marc:No one's beholden to time.
Guest:No, nobody cares about it.
Guest:If you do a show, all right, here, try this.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:We do a show at 2 o'clock in the morning.
Guest:There are no rules.
Guest:Nobody's watching.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But you tape it.
Guest:Your friends will tape it, and they'll run it in the morning.
Guest:Nobody sits down and watches.
Marc:They're going to watch it the next day in sections.
Guest:Like we used to.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:8 o'clock was dying to show at 7 o'clock.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now, nobody does that.
Guest:It doesn't matter what time it's on.
Guest:It matters when you watch it.
Guest:So we do a show at 2 o'clock in the morning.
Guest:There are no rules, no interference, no money, but you don't need any money at 2 o'clock in the morning.
Guest:And you put that on, and then you do one show, and then you put on pieces of that every night.
Guest:And you do a show that airs every night, 2 o'clock in the morning.
Guest:And I guarantee you people would watch it.
Guest:They would wait to hear what it was you said.
Guest:And they would see what you did and who you introduced.
Guest:There are people out there who are marvelous that are not on the air because there's no room.
Marc:Well, they are on the air.
Marc:They're just not on the air in any big way.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:What is the big way, George?
Guest:Where is this place that everybody's going to go?
Guest:It's this window.
Guest:The big way is the effect.
Guest:If you can go on here and do some political things.
Guest:Politics is now the new open window.
Guest:You can say anything.
Guest:Donald Trump's making it so easy.
Guest:You don't even need to be in the writer's guild.
Guest:All you have to do is quote him.
Marc:Well, what were some of the obstacles you had when creating the first laughing?
Marc:Oh, everything.
Marc:So how did Rowan and Martin get involved?
Guest:Because Timex wanted a host.
Guest:The show was designed without a host.
Guest:Rowan and Martin did one of the funniest nightclub acts ever.
Guest:Really?
Guest:So they wore tuxedos.
Guest:They were older.
Guest:You knew them?
Guest:Oh, very well.
Marc:From where did you see them in town?
Guest:My wife, Jolene, used to do the Ernie Kovacs show.
Guest:And so I became very friendly with Ernie Kovacs.
Guest:He's another unappreciated genius.
Guest:Oh, he was.
Guest:You would have loved Ernie.
Guest:He would have loved you, too.
Guest:Was he a nice guy?
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:Delight.
Marc:What was it like?
Marc:He was such an abstract thinker.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We used to argue all the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because my whole life was punchlines.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he never did a punchline.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Ernie, you're so close to a joke.
Guest:It's a punchline.
Guest:He said, I don't want to do punchlines.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who needs closure?
Guest:We would argue about this.
Guest:So one night he calls me.
Guest:He says, you got to come over to the studio.
Guest:My wife, Jolene, was doing his show.
Guest:And he'd tape at 2 o'clock in the morning, 3 o'clock.
Guest:So he says, you come over right now.
Guest:So I go over to the studio.
Guest:And he's doing a commercial for a car.
Guest:And the car is on this raised stage.
Guest:And Ernie says, this wonderful automobile.
Guest:And he hits the fender.
Guest:And it went through the floor.
Guest:And he says, now, is that a joke?
Guest:I said, yeah, Ernie.
Guest:That's a joke, all right.
Marc:He just had to prove it to you.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:He did one thing to prove to me that he could do a punchline.
Guest:But when Ernie died, Edie Adams wanted to go to work, and so I produced her nightclub act.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we brought Ronan Martin in as the opening act.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they did it.
Guest:Very funny nightclub act.
Guest:It went on and on and on and on.
Guest:And so we put them in because NBC wanted to host and Timex wanted to host.
Marc:And no one knew those guys?
Marc:Were they popular?
Guest:Yeah, they were a big-time nightclub act.
Guest:They were not television.
Guest:Vegas?
Guest:Vegas and Reno and whatever.
Guest:And they wore tuxedos, and they did the same act.
Guest:When they left stage, they never talked to each other until the next night when they came back out on stage.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:They didn't get along too well.
Guest:But anyhow, they were a great nightclub act.
Guest:So we put them in and they would come in and they would do whatever it was they did.
Guest:And then they went on and on and on because laughing was very staccato.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we would tape them.
Guest:Then I brought in Gary Owens.
Guest:Gary, do you know Gary?
Guest:The announcer, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah, I remember him from, yeah, I can see his face even.
Guest:Yeah, and one day I'm in the men's room of the smokehouse, and he says, why, George, good evening.
Guest:I said, whoa, wow.
Guest:He said, the acoustics are there.
Guest:I said, Gary, that's wonderful.
Guest:That's what I want you to do.
Guest:He said, what?
Guest:Put your thumb in your ear and say later that same evening.
Guest:And he said, that's a job.
Guest:I said, it's a job.
Guest:So that's what Gary's job was.
Guest:Roy Martin would be talking and talking, and he'd say later.
Marc:Was he a classic announcer?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He was a radio announcer, but he loved jokes.
Guest:And he would say later that same evening, we would cut out eight minutes of talk, and we'd be right back and go to the cocktail party.
Guest:And Rowan and Martin worked because they were older.
Guest:Dan was very straight.
Guest:Dick was silly.
Guest:And Dan was a hell of an actor, by the way.
Marc:So that was interesting.
Marc:So what you were able to do with that is sort of link the two culture, youth culture and what was before.
Marc:So they appeared conservative in looks and their age was the right age for the audience, yet they were sort of at odds with the entire cast.
Guest:Dan, Dick went back and forth between the crazies and Dan.
Guest:Dan was straight.
Guest:Dan did a character that I love.
Guest:He did General Bull Wright.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And General Bull Wright here, he said, you know, smoke him if you've got him.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he said, while we were fooling around, there's a little war in Southeast Asia.
Guest:We need a big war.
Guest:What this country needed is an annual war.
Guest:He was a war freak.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we put him on, exposing what the right was saying anyhow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they loved him because he was saying their message, and we loved him because it was anti-war.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it worked both ways.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And it worked because NBC had nothing to put on opposite Lucille Ball and Gunsmoke.
Guest:They were the number one in two shows.
Guest:And so we put it on at 8 o'clock Monday night.
Guest:There was no way to get a rating.
Guest:And we put it on.
Guest:And about the fourth show...
Guest:Sammy came down the hall and we were fooling around with an act that used to be Pigmeat Markham in the old days.
Guest:Sammy Davis Jr.
Guest:Sammy Davis.
Guest:Here comes the judge.
Guest:So I said, Sam, that's what we've got to do.
Guest:So he came in at 2 o'clock in the morning and we taped him going down the hall in a white wig.
Guest:Here comes the judge.
Guest:Well, we put that into the next show.
Guest:Just dropped it in.
Guest:Here comes the judge.
Guest:It didn't have to make sense.
Guest:It was Sammy in a white wig.
Guest:And we put it on.
Guest:And the next week, about three days later,
Guest:After the show had aired, the people, the Supreme Court justices came in and sat down on the bench.
Guest:And as they came in the room, somebody in the audience said, here come the judge.
Guest:And the entire courtroom cracked up because the judges didn't get a lot of laughs.
Guest:They get them now, but they didn't get them there.
Guest:So it landed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then everybody said, here come the judge.
Marc:Didn't you have pig meat on the show too?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We dug him up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So-
Guest:But see, what would happen is anything that was funny, we had Digby Wolfe on one side, and then we had Paul Keyes, who was Nixon's closest friend on the other, and he was to the right of right, you know?
Guest:These are writers?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But Digby was brilliant.
Guest:Digby had been with the Goon Show and the Running, Jumping, Standing still.
Marc:How many writers were on the show?
Marc:About, at that point, about 12.
Marc:Now, was it true that in talking to people about the SNL lore that you guys would write at one place and then they'd deliver the scripts and you'd shoot it somewhere else?
Marc:Or were the writers on set?
Marc:Where do you get this stuff?
Marc:I'm not sure.
Guest:The writers were in the beautiful Toluca Capri Motel.
Guest:And there were a group of people who were outcasts.
Guest:One of them had been a professor of political science in Bemidji, Wisconsin.
Guest:Another one was a hopeless junkie, another drunk.
Guest:But they were funny.
Guest:How'd you find them?
Guest:Just found them.
Guest:You know, how'd I find you?
Guest:This is an accident.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You're just wandering the neighborhood.
Marc:Where's my car?
Marc:Am I in Beverly Hills?
Guest:And they, people that made me laugh.
Guest:And looked at material.
Guest:One of them was Don Rio, who's a big writer today.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Big producer.
Guest:And we would bring them in and then Digby Wolf would have these meetings and they would sit down and they would write.
Guest:It was just a vast amount of material we needed.
Guest:And they would come in and do it and then we'd put it on stage and tape it.
Marc:How'd you find the cast?
Marc:Who were the original players?
Guest:Artie Johnson was selling clothes at Carol's.
Guest:And he did voices.
Guest:And he came over to the house one Easter morning dressed as a German.
Guest:And he was the Easter Nazi.
Guest:And he was funny.
Guest:He was outrageous.
Guest:That was very interesting.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:They used to bring in a linguist once a week to listen to what Artie had said to be sure it wasn't some foreign language.
Guest:And then Ruth Buzzi had been with Dom DeLuise.
Guest:What was that?
Guest:Were they a team?
Guest:Yeah, well, they did Shigundala.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:It was an act they did with a magician, Ruth Buzzi, who's one of the sweetest, most talented women.
Marc:And she played the lady with the purse.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And then Joanne Worley.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And Goldie, of course, walked in and I said, she was a dancer.
Guest:So I said, well, come in.
Guest:She said, what am I going to do?
Guest:I said, I don't have the slightest idea.
Guest:Goldie on.
Guest:Whatever you're going to do, we're going to get it wrong.
Guest:And she came in and we never let her read.
Marc:We're going to get it wrong because that's made her funny.
Guest:We never let her rehearse.
Guest:We never give her a script.
Guest:No, Goldie, you'll be fine.
Guest:She would do an introduction and we would change the words just to screw her up.
Guest:A delightful woman.
Guest:And of course, Lily was a godsend.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Where'd you find her?
Marc:I'd seen her.
Guest:She was auditioning for the Gary Moore show.
Guest:She was doing a tap dance with taps taped to the bottom of a barefoot tap dance.
Guest:And I just loved it.
Guest:And I could never find her.
Marc:What do you mean you could never find her?
Guest:I could never.
Guest:Well, because where are you going to find?
Guest:You go looking for a barefoot tap dancer.
Guest:There weren't any, you know.
Guest:And so then I saw her do a thing on a show that she did.
Guest:It was a rubber freak.
Guest:It was a woman who ate rubber.
Guest:And she was a junkie for rubber.
Guest:And she was cured.
Guest:She went to the psychiatrist.
Guest:knelt down to thank him and ate his galoshes and i said i must have this woman so lily came in nobody auditioned for laughing yeah they came in and i said i like that and hired her and what a delightful experience like a circus it was it was a circus but it was it was a circus and it was everybody having fun
Marc:But you also had, I mean, Richard Dawson was on there.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And he went on to Hogan's Heroes and the other guy from Hogan's Heroes too, right?
Marc:Larry Hovis.
Marc:Yeah, Larry Hovis.
Guest:We did a thing with Larry Hovis one night and he said, today, I can't remember, I have to think about it because it was like a
Guest:It was the first time, first successful transplant of a liver was transferred from Larry Oz.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, liver transplant.
Guest:We're off to see the liver, the wonderful liver of Oz.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And...
Marc:That was it?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That was the bit?
Guest:That was the bit.
Guest:And Larry was brilliant.
Guest:And Henry Gibson, of course, who was sort of like a unique fucking guy.
Guest:Henry came in.
Guest:With the poetry.
Guest:Did a poem and a backflip.
Guest:I remember the poetry.
Guest:He did a poem and a backflip, and I loved him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Joanne Worley I hired on the phone.
Guest:That voice, I said, this is wonderful.
Guest:With that laugh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's so weird because I remember seeing this too young.
Marc:What was I?
Marc:I was seven years old, six years old.
Marc:And my parents would watch it.
Marc:And it was all those quick cutaways.
Marc:They added nowhere.
Guest:You watched one show.
Guest:Your parents watched another.
Guest:You saw the girls, the bikinis, and the trap doors, and the water.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Well, I got a kick out of Ruth Buzzi and the Nazi.
Marc:No, I got it.
Guest:I got what was- But there were jokes there you didn't get.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:But you didn't have to, the color and everything.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Your parents saw a different show.
Marc:And everybody's sort of swinging around.
Marc:I remember everyone's sort of dancing in and out of things.
Marc:Let me ask you.
Guest:Is that true?
Marc:Should I do another one?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who would you cast?
Guest:I'm thinking about it.
Guest:There are people out there who, the only show using these people is Saturday Night Live.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, but there are people out here who grew up on.
Marc:Well, the question is, what would be the cultural signifier?
Marc:Because right then, you know, the 60s and the fashions of the 60s were being appropriated by the mainstream.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So there was, you know, a sort of across the board new fashion and it was like kind of sexy and swingy and half hippie and half mod, you know, and that grounded the whole show aesthetically.
Marc:How would you ground this show aesthetically now?
Guest:First thing I think I would do, right, is probably bring you in as an advisor.
Guest:Because first of all, you're crazy.
Guest:You are a little bit weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you are tuned into the culture.
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we don't want to be at the center.
Guest:We want to be on the periphery of it.
Guest:We want to do things that nobody's doing.
Marc:I think I think one of the things that you guys did that I think that could work.
Marc:And I think it comes from the original variety shows is that there are definitely separate, you know, huge markets and bubbles of show business.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You know, there's pop and there musically, you know, there's very they seem very distinct to me.
Marc:And I think that's happening with with acting and comedy and everything else that because the market is fragmented so much.
Marc:That they're just like, you know, like you got people that watch certain shows that don't know what else is going on that are very progressive.
Marc:Then you got people that are watching very mainstream shows.
Marc:But I think what the variety shows did to create the sense of community back in the day was you just cross pollinated with all these different things with ease.
Marc:Not like it's a freak show.
Marc:Like everybody sort of fit in under the bubble of show business.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I think it really becomes about using these people that really don't interact much in the marketplace to do these fun things.
Guest:And finding a way to piss them all off equally.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Because what you got offended with here, you like there.
Guest:And if we can do that as a happening, as a whirlpool of energy and fun and laughing, we had no agenda other than just to be funny.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But you did want to.
Marc:I mean, but come on, you had a little bit of an agenda.
Guest:Oh, yeah, sure.
Guest:But you were never aware of it because the next joke was so fast that you never really understood what we'd said the last time until it was too late.
Marc:Now, Hart and Michael, Lorne Michaels and Hart Pomerantz wrote for you briefly.
Guest:Yeah, they came in from Canada, and Ron Martin loved him, and NBC loved him because he was a sane voice in this wilderness of tumult and trouble and fun and happenings, you know?
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:He came out as the grounded guy?
Guest:Well, he came out kind of sane and quiet, and he was with Dan and Dick.
Guest:Dan and Dick loved him.
Guest:So what do you mean, like, he's a good politician?
Guest:He just... He just, he schmoozed.
Guest:He was great.
Guest:I wasn't, you know...
Marc:Do you think that his experience with you influenced the history?
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:Oh, sure it did.
Guest:But then he went on to New York, and he did this show.
Guest:And let's face it, I mean, 40 years on the air, that's a record, man.
Guest:He did it.
Guest:And it started out as a variety show with a floating host.
Guest:And then he did The News, which is what we did.
Guest:And God love him.
Guest:He's done a whole thing about reactivating late-night television or creating late-night television.
Guest:Now, when you do these other gigs that you do, do you still do the comedy awards?
Guest:No, I stopped because it just got too—it wasn't that much.
Guest:The sitcoms were all about sex, and the variety shows, it was a bad time.
Guest:So now we may do it again now.
Guest:Too broad?
Guest:well no it was just it got kind of seedy you know the monologues the monologues were all were all dirty and the sitcoms were all just sex and there was a whole period there where there was not political humor and i wasn't having fun anymore where do you um but i may do it i may do the comedy awards again and i'm i'm really seriously thinking about doing well how do you feel about the roasts coming back you like them
Guest:Yeah, yeah, the roasts are great.
Guest:They did one last night with, you know.
Guest:Like a real, oh, an in-house one at the Friars?
Guest:No, no, it was, but anyhow, it was a good show, and it's great, but it's a one-joke kind of a thing, you know?
Marc:Yeah, well, yeah, it's people shitting on a guy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But the world out there, first of all, technically we can do so much more.
Guest:Research-wise, we have access to more information very quickly, and the audience is there with nothing to do.
Guest:They've got this vast population.
Marc:prairie of available entertainment but there's no focus i like the idea of doing something with the pace of laugh in with the what we have uh now uh you know production why i think that one of the things that made oh yeah laughing interesting was that there was a tremendous pace to it but it all happened in real time
Guest:And the other thing is there's a new breed out there.
Guest:There's these people working on the internet.
Guest:You, what is this?
Guest:I mean, I would come in here with a camera.
Guest:There's a new arena out there, and we're not really taking advantage of it yet.
Marc:Yeah, but I know, but I think that the show would have to be live.
Marc:No, we could never do it live.
Marc:No, not live on camera, but live to take.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:You don't want to start showing clips, and you don't want it to be real people.
Marc:You did real people.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I think that sort of started something.
Guest:Yes, the reality television was the first one.
Marc:And that did well for you, huh?
Guest:Very well.
Guest:We did 145 of those.
Guest:That paid the mortgage.
Guest:I've been very lucky.
Marc:I've gotten fired a lot.
Marc:You know, I think Byron Allen's still on TV.
Marc:Is he?
Marc:I think so.
Guest:God love him.
Marc:He's always like, you know, all of a sudden you get a call.
Marc:It's like, Byron Allen wants you to do a show.
Marc:He's like, he's got a show?
Marc:And he could go out to some hangar somewhere.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And then charge you for parking.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Marc:But I forget what it's called.
Guest:Byron Allen.
Guest:I love Byron.
Guest:He did a Carson show, and I saw him, and I said, this kid is good.
Guest:We didn't have any black, and we didn't have any young.
Guest:So we hired him to come in.
Guest:He was like 16, 17 years old.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And so we brought him in, and so I hired him to do some shows.
Guest:We had an ex-Green Beret producer, Bob Long.
Guest:He was, you know.
Guest:and Bob Long, I sent him out with him, and Bob Long calls me and says, we're going to kill him.
Guest:I said, what, Bob?
Guest:He said, he's having them carry his things.
Guest:He won't come on until we're ready to shoot.
Guest:He's talking about the Byron Allen T-shirts.
Guest:He said, we're going to kill him.
Guest:He's thinking big.
Guest:So I said, Byron, I went to a meeting.
Guest:He said, well, I'm not a vet.
Guest:Yes, you are.
Guest:Come in now.
Guest:So Byron came in, and I said, Byron, you understand me.
Guest:Half of the world hates you because you're young.
Guest:The other half of the world hates you because you're black.
Guest:I hate you because you're stupid.
Guest:Now, we're not going to do that anymore.
Guest:And then he behaved himself, and he went on, and he went on, and his mother is his manager.
Guest:Byron's a bright little guy.
Marc:No, he works his angles, and he's always on television.
Marc:Yes, he is.
Marc:My point is that how much were you influenced by, it just dawned on me, that the pace of laughing is sort of Marx Brothers-y.
Guest:My own, my own.
Guest:You like the Marx Brothers?
Guest:Yeah, I loved them.
Guest:I did Groucho's last variety show.
Guest:How old was he?
Guest:Oh, he was very old, very old.
Marc:Oh, he seemed like a great guest at parties.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I called him up and I said, Groucho, I said, Mr. Marx, my name is George Slaughter.
Guest:He said, that's your problem.
Guest:And I said, we want you to do the Bill Cosby show.
Guest:He said, who is he?
Guest:And I said, he's a comedian.
Guest:I never heard of him.
Guest:He said, is there any money?
Guest:I said, yeah.
Guest:He said, that's not enough.
Guest:I mean, he just abused me on the phone.
Guest:And he came in and sat down.
Marc:That's your problem.
Guest:That's your problem.
Guest:And he was delightful.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:But my Groucho and my stories go on and on and on.
Guest:Oh, that's so funny.
Guest:See, what I'm worried about is...
Guest:We've now become nonconformists like everybody else.
Guest:I mean, there's a world, there's a new horizon out there with the technology, with the subject matter, with the acceptability of subjects.
Marc:Do you like what SNL's doing right now?
Guest:Some of it, yeah.
Guest:Some of it, I think.
Guest:It's too long.
Guest:And it depends on the host entirely.
Guest:If we do laughing again, I won't have a host.
Guest:I'll just have different stars come in and talk.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Who has to say, good evening, I'm your host?
Guest:The minute you do that, the whole show takes another thing.
Marc:I guess, but that seemed to be the anchor of the original idea was to find somebody to move that through.
Guest:The original idea, the cast is what makes Saturday Night Live.
Marc:No, I get that, but then it's just sketches.
Guest:It doesn't have to be.
Guest:There's so many possibilities now that we don't explore because we want to be a nonconformist like everybody else.
Guest:Another Saturday Night Live.
Guest:You don't need another Saturday Night Live.
Marc:No, I know that.
Marc:I know.
Marc:That's why I'm saying.
Guest:What you need is a new form.
Marc:Well, why wouldn't you?
Guest:I guess, but... I wouldn't do a musical number in a new show.
Marc:But you're saying that everyone's a nonconformist, but it sounds to me that there's something about some of these older structures that have been forgotten.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And that might work again.
Marc:It would.
Marc:It would.
Marc:If you took today's... But the no host idea, I don't understand that.
Guest:I don't know who the host would be, but it would seem... I don't either.
Marc:huh the first thing i do would not be who's going to be the host the cast is of course yes but like the the host you know given their dynamics sort of functioned as this strange straight man even though they had their own does it have to no okay but i haven't seen that in a while why you yeah because everything is host host host who's going to be the host well what do you mean who's the tell me a hosted variety show that isn't a talk show
Marc:Well, yeah, go on.
Marc:There aren't any.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So?
Marc:So it's time.
Guest:Now you tell me you don't want a host.
Guest:It's time for a new show that breaks all the rules.
Guest:When I do another laugh-in.
Marc:There are no rules to break.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:So we conform to the non-rules.
Guest:When I do a new laugh-in, it won't have a host.
Marc:It hurt my brain.
Guest:No, it would be good for you.
Guest:Matter of fact, I would drag your sorry ass in there to do it because you have the proper outrage and the proper awareness of what's going on in the culture.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:No, you do.
Guest:You do.
Guest:You're super hip.
Guest:You were hip when the rest of the world was still hip.
Marc:Well, I'm curious.
Marc:I'm thinking about laughing and how exciting it was.
Guest:Yeah, it would be again.
Guest:It would be more now because now you have access to the news.
Guest:There's a lot of characters around, dude.
Guest:There definitely is a lot of characters around.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Why give that time to a host who's already famous and not give it to somebody else?
Marc:No, you just have them there to anchor the thing.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Because then it just floats.
Guest:That's it.
Marc:Yeah, floats the right word.
Marc:You're making me feel like it's my idea.
Marc:You're doing it.
Marc:I can feel it happening.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I get all excited when I talk about coming out and doing another one.
Guest:We're talking about the success.
Guest:What are you talking about it to?
Guest:Well, Time Life had this.
Guest:That's still a thing?
Guest:Time Life?
Guest:Because I sent you the collection.
Marc:I have the collection.
Guest:I know.
Marc:That's from Time Life?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, look at that.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:I just remember the books.
Marc:You get three for free, and then you get the rest forever.
Guest:No, it's a whole day.
Guest:You open that box, and you'll see.
Marc:I'm not talking about the box.
Marc:I'm talking about the old days when they had the Time Life Library.
Guest:Yeah, well, no, but the old days.
Guest:I don't want you to talk about the old days anymore.
Guest:I want you to talk about the next thing.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:The next thing is what's going to happen, and the next thing will take advantage of the fact that you've got a computer here, the fact that on your cell phone, you can do a movie on your cell phone.
Marc:Yeah, this is the opening bit, a guy that doesn't know where to watch something, and nothing's working.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:And that's the truth.
Marc:That's the truth.
Marc:People don't watch television anymore.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know.
Guest:Look, I'm excited about it.
Guest:So who's going to produce?
Guest:Well, that's another... Well, first of all, there are other producers out there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're doing some stuff right now that I could use as you do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Put it on the air.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there are... I saw a kid the other day.
Guest:Unbelievable.
Guest:Just card tricks.
Guest:You could take him and do funny card tricks with him and just the visual of it would be exciting.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:If you...
Guest:Throw away all the rules.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you say, okay, we're not going to do the F word and we're not going to whatever, but we're going to do political.
Guest:I mean, I think Sean Hannity is the funniest man on the air.
Guest:You want to use your Sean?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I'd put Sean Hannity in him.
Guest:No, I'd do a tribute to Sean Hannity.
Guest:I mean, help me, Jesus.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He'd probably do it.
Guest:And Rush Limbaugh, I would do.
Guest:Rush Limbaugh must be watched.
Guest:It's like an accident.
Guest:You're not proud that you saw it, but you had to see it.
Guest:Well, he's a showman.
Guest:There's no doubt that these guys have.
Guest:Oh, he's a clown.
Guest:He's a balloon buffoon, I call him.
Marc:Well, I mean, that's really what's at the core and what's, you know, the biggest joke for people who run a little deeper than the people that think they're watching the news is that these guys are hucksters.
Marc:They're clowns.
Guest:They're show business people.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:But nobody's- Carnival show.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:P.T.
Guest:Barnum's alive.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Nobody.
Guest:He's in the White House.
Guest:I mean, when he's in the White House.
Guest:Come on, will you tell me, how does he get the hair that color?
Marc:I don't know, but I heard that whatever he's using is making him nuts.
Yeah.
Guest:He belongs in the home.
Guest:He really does.
Guest:He belongs in a silly city in a rubber room.
Guest:There's your open.
Guest:Trump in the home.
Guest:But he's our president.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I like her.
Marc:Of course you like her.
Marc:You want her to be a dancer on The New Laughing?
Marc:Even more.
Guest:I thought we were getting dirty.
Guest:I would offer a shot on New Laugh-In.
Guest:Sure you would.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You could probably get that.
Guest:And I like the new son who doesn't remember meeting with the Russians.
Marc:He remembers now.
Guest:Oh, I remember that.
Guest:How did that happen?
Marc:They just need their memory jogged by investigative reporters.
Guest:He needs the memory jogged by us.
Guest:He needs for us to come in there and do a caricature.
Marc:I'm understanding now the broad palate of your brain, and I like it.
Marc:I like what you're saying, and when I frame it in the context of the original laughing, I kind of half see it.
Guest:Well, you'll see it.
Guest:There's no way to stop it, because it must happen, because of our national boredom.
Marc:But it's a very aggravated boredom in the sense that there's no shortage of shit to distract and engage, and yet you're still bored.
Marc:That's something other than boredom.
Marc:That's beyond boredom.
Marc:It's paralysis.
Guest:And you're only two degrees away from funny.
Guest:When you get all of that stuff you just mentioned.
Guest:You're a hell of a salesman.
Guest:When you get past all the stuff you just mentioned, cue the audience, and the audience will be there waiting to laugh.
Guest:We're waiting to laugh at something.
Guest:That's how Trump got a laugh.
Guest:I feel like you're offering me a job.
Guest:Are you offering me a job?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:We may have to move this environment a little.
Guest:You ought to see.
Guest:Do people see what this is?
Guest:Some people know what it is.
Guest:This is wonderful.
Marc:This could be one set on the new laughing.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:You got it.
Guest:You got it.
Guest:I don't think I can afford this many books and records and toys and things.
Guest:Take the new laugh in.
Guest:Put you and the new laugh in in this set, and I guarantee you, within two weeks, well, you are already...
Guest:famous.
Guest:What am I talking about?
Marc:I'd just be a bit, though.
Marc:You'd only use me for two-second shots of me saying like three things.
Guest:I don't need any.
Marc:I don't want to use anybody for two seconds.
Guest:No, no, we would do more than that.
Guest:No, no, no, no, no.
Marc:But you want to do that pace again, don't you, where you just cut away to ridiculousness?
Guest:You would bring the necessary intellectual input into that show.
Marc:So I could be like a part of the brain.
Guest:Because you're on the periphery of the establishment.
Guest:You're almost normal.
Guest:I'm definitely on the periphery of the establishment.
Guest:You're almost normal, but not.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:That's very promising for my world.
Guest:Don't tell anybody.
Marc:Don't tell anybody.
Guest:No, I wouldn't.
Guest:Who would believe it?
Guest:I know, right?
Guest:I'm having more damn fun than I've ever had with my clothes on.
Guest:Stop it.
Guest:You've had better times with better people.
Guest:Well, okay.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Guest:That was an easy sale.
Guest:No, we will do it.
Guest:We're going to do a new laugh-in.
Guest:We're going to do it.
Guest:I may do it.
Guest:See, what happens?
Guest:You're hiding something.
Guest:You've already talked to me.
Guest:I hide a lot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:You think I got here by the bus?
Guest:Everything I do is hiding something.
Marc:I didn't think you got here by the bus.
Guest:No, but the thing is... I love that saying.
Guest:There's more stuff to be done that we're not doing.
Marc:I know.
Guest:All right, so we'll talk again.
Marc:This was good.
Guest:Please, let's do it.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I'm going to watch the shows.
Guest:I don't know if this worked or not.
Guest:It worked for me because I had a good time.
Guest:Yeah, no, I had a good time.
Guest:And we will do it again.
Guest:Yeah, we're going to do laughing, right?
Guest:I've got to tell you right now.
Guest:Right now, I will put you on the pilot, the first show for sure.
Guest:And we'll tape it in here.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:On a phone?
Guest:No, not on the phone.
Guest:No, because you have more fun than people are allowed to have with their clothes on.
Guest:I know.
Guest:You just had George Schwatter over.
Guest:Do you know him?
Guest:I used to.
Guest:I knew he was this dude.
Guest:You didn't come over here on a bus.
No.
Guest:See, I dropped off some stuff here you may use.
Marc:I think the high point was, my name is George Schlatter.
Marc:That's your problem.
Marc:I wish I knew Groucho Marx.
Guest:Oh, God, it was funny.
Guest:It was funny.
Marc:Always the brain was just popping, huh?
Guest:He brought his secretary with him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so she said, we taped some stuff with Groucho.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I said, that's it.
Guest:She said, what do you mean, that's it?
Guest:I said, well, we've got everything we need.
Guest:She said, you can't send him home now.
Guest:She said, I've got enough stuff in it.
Guest:It'll be up for three days.
Guest:And I said, she said, you can't send him home now.
Guest:We went in and Groucho was there.
Guest:She was in the dressing room naked, dancing, keeping Groucho's attention.
Guest:See, I'm talking about writing a book, but the problem is my life is so weird that nobody's going to believe a lot of it.
Marc:Well, just ask Cliff to hang out.
Marc:He'll write it with you.
Guest:Well, he's working on it.
Guest:He took some notes.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, he's a piece of work, isn't he?
Guest:Do you see him?
Marc:I talked to him, sure.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, when I started reading him, I had him on this show because I thought his mind and his writing needed to be out in the world, and we just produced a series of podcasts with him.
Guest:Well, that's good because he needs that window.
Marc:Yeah, no, I'm a big Cliff fan.
Guest:Because he fools you.
Guest:The way he looks and the way he writes and the way he researches, he fools you.
Guest:He is in it, man.
Marc:He lives in the rabbit hole of show business.
Yeah.
Guest:And he's the rabbit.
Guest:He is the rabbit.
Marc:There's no fucking doubt he's the rabbit.
Guest:I know, I know.
Guest:And he's having more fun than you're allowed to have.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And the book is doing well.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:We did a couple of personal appearances together.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And I was not invited back.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:I think I may have been a bit disruptive.
Marc:Well, that's all right.
Marc:He's going to rotate all the guys that still remember the guys that he gives a shit about through.
Guest:There's only about eight left.
Guest:I know.
Marc:It's sad.
Guest:You?
Guest:Now, what are you doing the rest of today, or is this it?
Marc:I talked to you, and then I'm actually going to go play guitar with some guys for the first time ever.
Marc:I've always wanted to play with them.
Guest:Their first time or your first time?
Marc:Well, I mean, I like to play, and I never get together with guys to play, so I'm going to go try it.
Marc:Is that your guitar there?
Marc:No, that's a thing.
Marc:That's an old guitar that I keep in here, and sometimes people pick it up.
Guest:I'm not going to do that.
Marc:No, I know.
Guest:I used to play clarinet.
Marc:It's not going to sound good.
Guest:It was funny, though, because I played it upside down.
Guest:No, you didn't.
Guest:What?
Guest:You did not play it upside down.
Guest:I know.
Guest:That was a silly thing to say, but I wish I hadn't said.
Guest:So, George.
Guest:Now I've lost your respect.
Guest:Not at all.
Guest:Not at all.
Guest:You didn't come here on the bus.
Guest:They can't all be zircons, you know.
Marc:Zircons.
Marc:That's the tag for the new laughing.
Marc:They can't all be zircons.
Guest:All right.
Guest:We'll talk again.
Guest:I've got a lot more trivia waiting for our next appearance.
Guest:Okay, buddy.
Guest:This was fun.
Guest:It was.
Marc:all right folks that's it i am i doing a show with george swatter is that what happened there i don't i can't tell let me know don't forget to pre-order our new book waiting for the punch and when you do use your proof of purchase to enter our podcast fan sweepstakes you can win a king-size mattress from casper or a three-piece luggage set from away plus signed posters from me go to markmarinbook.com or click the book links at wtfpod.com
Marc:to pre-order and enter to win.
Marc:I've got the Black Les Paul out here plugged into the little Fender Champ, and that's going to make some major Sonic mush.
Guest:Boomer lives!
Guest:Yeah.