Episode 844 - Lorde
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuckadelics what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf how's it going so today on the show i'm
Marc:Sort of.
Marc:I don't know if it's certainly not an off the grid guest, but it might not be a guest that you would assume I would have on the show.
Marc:The singer and songwriter and pop phenom.
Marc:She's great.
Marc:Lord.
Marc:Lord is here.
Marc:Well, she was.
Marc:I talked to her the other day.
Marc:She was here in this garage with me sitting right over there.
Marc:Big pop star.
Marc:Lord.
Marc:And I'm old, but I got to be honest with you.
Marc:You know, I'll tell you why.
Marc:I like her a lot.
Marc:I actually love her voice.
Marc:She moves me.
Marc:What can I tell you?
Marc:So when I got the opportunity to talk to her, I took it.
Marc:My buddy, John Daniel, who you've heard on this show.
Marc:is actually her manager right now at this point, his company and him.
Marc:But I don't know if it came through him.
Marc:It must have come through him somehow.
Marc:But we get pitched people and I'm like, I'll talk to Lord.
Marc:I like Lord.
Marc:She works a lot on this new album with Jack Antonoff, who I've had on the show, who I also like.
Marc:You know, I'm not a pop fanatic, but I can certainly appreciate it.
Marc:I'm always sort of astounded by people that manufacture the big pop music.
Marc:So that's going to happen.
Marc:That's going to happen right in your ears here in a minute.
Marc:I'm going to talk to Lord.
Marc:I know it's weird, right?
Marc:It was weird for me too, believe me.
Marc:Felt a little nervous, you know?
Marc:It's a little generational difference.
Marc:But I can hang with the youngsters, with the folks, the young people.
Marc:I can.
Marc:The special is up and out.
Marc:My special, Too Real, is available on Netflix and you can go watch it.
Marc:I'm very happy with it.
Marc:I'm proud of it.
Marc:It looks good.
Marc:It's a whole piece of work.
Marc:People are digging it.
Marc:I'm getting a lot of good feedback.
Marc:I appreciate it and I'm glad you like it.
Marc:I'm glad you're getting some laughs.
Marc:It's very laugh efficient, this special.
Marc:What else is happening?
Marc:Still no nicotine, man.
Marc:Still no nicotine.
Marc:And I, you know, it's made me a little, I'm not sure what's happening now.
Marc:I'm drinking tea because I got off the coffee with the nicotine.
Marc:And I'm not, I don't think I'm very good at, you know, always paying attention to ordering online because I like the PG tips.
Marc:I like the British tea.
Marc:So I ordered some British tea, but I didn't realize that I got a bag of 1,150 tea bags.
Marc:So this fucking pillow sized bag, you know, it's delivered to my house.
Marc:And I'm like, this is too much pressure.
Marc:Like that's a lifetime's worth of tea.
Marc:And I literally mean that.
Marc:I don't know how much I'm going to drink.
Marc:I don't drink it every day.
Marc:That tea could outlive me at this point.
Marc:And that kind of bothers me because then this bag of 1,100 tea bags becomes this harbinger of doom.
Marc:Like, am I going to outlive this bag of tea?
Marc:That looks awkward.
Marc:It's just a lot of pressure.
Marc:I've got a little tin that I can put like 60, 70 bags in, but then there's another 1,100.
Marc:This is the problem with bulk.
Marc:It's too much pressure.
Marc:I guess the nicotine, the lack of nicotine is not helping my clarity per se.
Marc:Is what I'm saying.
Marc:And also there comes the question of where's it going to go next?
Marc:You know, when you have an addictive personality, like, and you, if you really got it and you get rid of one, it's going to, what's, where's, where's it going to, where's it going to show up?
Marc:It's whack-a-mole business.
Marc:So where's it going to come out?
Marc:I mean, it's either going to, it's going to be like, like I got Lord on the show coming up here and I, I know there's going to be young people listening, but with this addiction thing, first of all, try to avoid it.
Marc:if you're a young person and you're listening, don't vape the nicotine because that's a lifelong commitment.
Marc:Try to not do the meth because, again, your teeth will fall out and your hair will fall out.
Marc:The weed is a little insidious.
Marc:I mean, if you can handle it, fine.
Marc:If you like it, okay.
Marc:Maybe you don't think it's a big deal to smoke some weed or vape some weed every day, but it could become your life and it can distance you from reality.
Marc:So stay aware of that.
Marc:Lay off the opiates, all right, because that's a lifelong commitment if you live.
Marc:If you don't know me and you're just tuning in, I've got 18 years sober, but I was doing the nicotine lozenges for a long time, and now I've taken them away.
Marc:So either I'm going to start eating, which I've already begun.
Marc:The eating has commenced.
Marc:The filling the pie hole constantly has already commenced.
Marc:So now it's just a matter of preparing enough healthy food to shove into my face when I eat compulsively.
Marc:So this is where I'm at now.
Marc:A lot of work in the kitchen.
Marc:There's a lot of stuff being prepared.
Marc:Sweet potatoes, yams, mushrooms.
Marc:I cooked some cabbage, brown rice, chopped a jicama up.
Marc:That's not an easy thing to get that skin off a jicama.
Marc:So now I've got all these healthy snacks, so I'm just shoveling that into my face.
Marc:So that's active.
Marc:Now, the one you got to worry about is the one that we keep in our pants.
Marc:That addiction can be a little gnarly.
Marc:Thankfully, I have a girlfriend, but, you know, there's always the Internet, and that's no way to spend a day and feel good about yourself.
Marc:You don't want to spend a day just pulling at that thing or rubbing at that thing.
Marc:I mean, it's nice.
Marc:It'll get you away.
Marc:But you don't finish and feel great.
Marc:So I'm trying to manage that.
Marc:Right now, it looks like we're moving a lot of stuff into the face.
Marc:which can become a problem.
Marc:It's all part of a bigger cycle.
Marc:Eventually, I'm going to be like, I'll just have a cup of coffee.
Marc:Eventually, I'll be like, I'm going to maybe have a cigar.
Marc:And then eventually, you're going to hear me sucking on those lozenges again.
Marc:I've certainly got enough tea.
Marc:That I can tell you.
Marc:So, Lord.
Marc:Oh, Lord, Lord.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Lord is here.
Marc:Now, I got to be honest with you.
Marc:I enjoy Lord's music and I seek it out.
Marc:And sometimes when I'm working out at the gym with my trainer, I'll have her put on a Lord station.
Marc:The first time I saw Lord, I saw her at that when they do inducted induced.
Marc:They induced Nirvana.
Yeah.
Marc:Would somebody please?
Marc:They induced Nirvana into the into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Marc:They inducted and Lord did a song.
Marc:And I was like, what?
Marc:Who is this girl?
Marc:What is happening?
Marc:What is this voice?
Marc:What is this intensity?
Marc:What is this talent?
Marc:What is where where does this come from?
Marc:And then I saw her in SNL not long ago, and I'm like, there she is again.
Marc:What is this voice?
Marc:What are these feels?
Marc:See, I'm using the language.
Marc:What are these feels I'm feeling?
Marc:And I tried to wrap my brain around something that it's very hard to explain.
Marc:You can't just go like, why do you move me with that voice of yours?
Marc:Where does that come from, youngster?
Marc:That's not the right approach.
Marc:But I think I did all right.
Marc:Her second album, Melodrama, came out in June.
Marc:And the Melodrama World Tour kicks off later this month.
Marc:This was recorded just three days after the VMAs.
Marc:where she did her flu-inspired dance, and she was on the mend a bit when this was recorded.
Marc:Still a little flu-y.
Marc:So that's where we're at.
Marc:This is me and Lorde.
Guest:I had those ladies come.
Guest:Those hot ladies, the drip doctors.
Guest:Do you know about this?
Marc:What?
Marc:The drip?
Marc:The what?
Guest:You can just pay these ladies $200 and they will come and just shoot you up with this cocktail.
Guest:It could be for a hangover.
Guest:It could be a semi-professional sports person.
Marc:And they'll shoot you like what?
Marc:With like B12s?
Guest:It's like all the Bs, all the Cs, all the electrolytes, you know.
Guest:But it's like the start of a porno.
Guest:They're like in their little uniforms.
Guest:They're like so cute, you know.
Marc:It seems like such a Hollywood thing to me.
Guest:It's so fucking... I mean, you could not find that in New Zealand.
Guest:They wouldn't do that for you.
Guest:It's not a service.
Guest:No.
Guest:It's not a service anywhere.
Guest:No.
Guest:It's like a completely... I had it.
Guest:I had it.
Guest:So I'm hoping it's going to help me.
Marc:It's a complete... Well, no.
Marc:I mean... Help me recover.
Marc:Vitamins are good.
Marc:How could it be bad?
Marc:Vitamins are good.
Guest:I think it's fine, right?
Guest:I think it's...
Marc:But like the real question is, so, okay, so you're about to do, was this before you did the VMAs or after?
Guest:This was maybe an hour and a half pre-VMAs.
Guest:Just the time you want to have a drip directly.
Marc:So it's like an IV drip?
Guest:It's an IV drip, yeah.
Guest:Just push it in.
Marc:So like what I want to know is like, what was the, like what's probably more interesting than them coming or whatever that job is.
Marc:These like emergency holistic practitioners.
Guest:Hotties, holistic hotties.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:The real question is, who knew them?
Marc:Who was like, oh, I know who we got to call?
Marc:Which handler?
Marc:Which department did that come from?
Guest:Yeah, I have a lot of departmental heads.
Guest:I just sort of like, I mean, my tour manager handles people way fancier than I am and is like very used to.
Marc:Not my friend, not John.
Guest:No, his name is Richard Coble.
Guest:He's looked after a lot of famous divas in history.
Marc:Like?
Guest:I mean, you know, like Madonna.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:You know, like the whole... Oh, so he's run quite a circus.
Guest:He's used to, I think, asking for a vitamin drip at 3 p.m.
Guest:on the day of the V-Maze is like a chill ask.
Guest:He's like, that's easy.
Marc:No problem.
Marc:I know exactly who to call.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, the drip doctors.
Marc:The disposing of a body thing.
Marc:That's a little trickier.
Guest:I think he even would be okay with that.
Guest:Of course he would.
Marc:He'd be like, I will make it happen.
Marc:He's a tour manager.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I got a guy.
Marc:What town are we in?
Marc:Oklahoma City?
Marc:I know a guy here.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:So you started Googling, and then what was the panic?
Marc:What did you come up with?
Marc:What did you self-diagnose?
Guest:Well, I thought that I had toxic shock syndrome, which every woman is afraid of.
Guest:You get it from using tampons.
Marc:Is that still a thing?
Marc:I didn't know if that was...
Guest:I mean, I don't know.
Guest:I read about one girl who had to have some amputation from toxic shock.
Guest:So I think I'm like, that's just going to stay in my mind.
Guest:But it's like every girl's secret fear is that they're going to get toxic shock.
Marc:I guess, you know, I guess like to me, it's not.
Guest:I don't think dudes are too stressed about.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I don't have problems with that generally.
Marc:But I mean, I remember hearing about that a lot.
Marc:And then it just sort of was out of the news.
Marc:But why wouldn't it still be frightening to women?
Guest:Yeah, I decided I had that and I was apparently get itchy hands and feet and I like my foot started to itch and I was like, that's it.
Guest:The big show is calling.
Guest:They're summoning me up to the big show.
Marc:Is that what you call it?
Marc:The big show?
Guest:The big show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Pop on up to the big show.
Marc:You don't want to be sick when you get to the big show.
Guest:No, no.
Marc:So how long have you been in town for?
Guest:I've been in town since last Wednesday or Thursday.
Marc:And do you come here a lot?
Marc:i come here about as little as i can help yeah yeah what's your feeling about it like when you come to i mean look i know you've been at it since you were like 13 and like your entrance you i mean you understand to some degree what show business looks like from the top level you know you you kind of came in at the you know there was
Guest:But I still find it like very... No, it's got to be weird as fuck.
Guest:Puts me ill at ease.
Guest:It's still a strange thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I... Like what part of it?
Marc:You land in LA, the car comes.
Guest:Well, you land in LA, all the fucking paparazzi are at the airport.
Marc:Oh, they're there.
Guest:And so you dream about paparazzi for the next two weeks.
Guest:Are they going, hey, Lord, Lord.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Lord.
Guest:Over here, Lord.
Guest:Yeah, but they're like right... Do they call you by your regular name?
Guest:Touching your face.
Guest:Oh, never.
Marc:No, it's always Lord.
Marc:When am I supposed to call you?
Marc:Because that was sort of awkward.
Marc:That was awkward out on the deck.
Guest:I feel really bad.
Guest:I didn't even make that up.
Guest:You were shouting, Lord, Lord, and I was walking the other way.
Marc:Yeah, and you were going down my hill.
Marc:You were going down the hill.
Guest:What is down that hill?
Marc:Nothing, just another patio.
Guest:Chickens?
Guest:You have chickens down there?
Guest:I should have chickens.
Guest:You should.
Marc:There are people who have chickens around here.
Guest:Chickens are very hip.
Guest:Did you grow up with chickens?
Guest:I did not, but I grew up with every other animal.
Guest:Are you serious?
Guest:You can imagine under the sun.
Like what?
Guest:Anything from... Dogs, cats, gerbils?
Guest:Axolotls, dogs, cats, guinea pigs, rats, mice, baby mice.
Guest:What's an axolotl?
Guest:An axolotl is like a walking water snake.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Is that a pet in New Zealand?
Guest:That's a chill pet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There are a lot of, there are axolotls bumping around.
Guest:Um, we had it all.
Guest:We had literally, we had many fish.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:Fish.
Guest:We got a lot of pets.
Marc:So, so what do people call, what is your name?
Marc:What should I call you?
Guest:Ella?
Guest:So my name is Ella.
Marc:Ella.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Just Ella.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So I'm yelling Lord like an idiot.
Guest:And I'm just ignoring you.
Marc:Not turning around.
Marc:I'm like, of course that's not her name.
Guest:Do I call you Mark?
Marc:Yeah, Mark is good.
Guest:Mark.
Guest:Good.
Guest:Okay, cool.
Perfect.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:I couldn't resist.
Guest:Please.
Guest:I can't resist it.
Guest:Jack Antonoff, who you've met.
Guest:I love Jack.
Guest:Yeah, the best.
Guest:He just rips the shit out of my accent all the time.
Guest:But his favorite word is festival.
Marc:Fistival.
Guest:He goes, festival?
Guest:We're going to the festival.
Guest:I'm like, all right.
Guest:Come on.
Marc:It's been two years.
Marc:My manager's Australian, and it's hard not to make fun of it.
Guest:I get it.
Marc:It's different.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:Yours is a little, it's like Australian, but then just a little further tweet.
Yeah.
Marc:Like, it makes perfect sense in the proximity.
Guest:Oh, gosh.
Marc:The difference in the accent, right?
Guest:Yes, I think so.
Marc:Because you can tell the difference, right?
Marc:Oh, deeply.
Yeah.
Marc:All right, so you get past the wall of paparazzi.
Marc:They drive you off to the fancy hotel.
Guest:Yeah, it's just, it's like so far away from what my life is.
Guest:And I think, I mean, just New Zealand and America are such different places.
Guest:And it's something I will never get used to in my life.
Marc:How many people are like, I'm coming.
Marc:Do you know a neighborhood I should live in?
Marc:I'm about ready to... A lot of people have hit me up.
Guest:I've been like, I have a spare room.
Guest:You know, you can take turns.
Guest:It's a nice spare room.
Guest:It's so fucking crazy how different it is.
Guest:And even like, you know, every product here I feel like is like...
Guest:yelling at you they're yelling but they're yelling in this like voice that makes me feel like an idiot they're like no ouchies you know it's like what the fuck is that i'm an adult like just tell me the product's gonna work you know what i mean like it's like uh yeah it's there's a lot of like weird cartoon shit sure products seek to infantilize everybody that's the way the american economy is built on making sure we're we're in need better in new zealand constant constant need oh they do
Guest:They must get better.
Marc:Is it more practical there?
Guest:It's much more practical, but also like, I think there's a thing here, which is like, they would never, like, I feel like every ad here, it can be an ad for like children's vitamins.
Guest:And then they're like, may cause.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Guest:List of serious ailments.
Marc:They gotta do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's like a lot.
Guest:And you're like, oh my God, we're really going there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right away.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Internal bleeding.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They've like,
Guest:fucking go there right on TV never ending diarrhea yes yes active active diarrhea as they call it when you stay at a hotel they say don't swim in the pool if you have active diarrhea I've never heard that in my life disgusting active go to any pool in West Hollywood the little sign will say do not swim with active diarrhea it says maybe I didn't know it really snaps you out of that motel reverie you know you're like okay fuck it snaps you out of your spa day yeah
Marc:Just wondering who's like... Who's active.
Marc:Yeah, who's active and not following the rules.
Marc:So we need to talk about New Zealand, I think.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:What do you want to know?
Marc:You just live there in a neighborhood?
Marc:I live there in a neighborhood.
Marc:But you grew up there your whole life.
Guest:I grew up there my whole life.
Marc:And it's beautiful, right?
Marc:Everything about it is beautiful.
Guest:I mean, it has problems like any country.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:Well, we have a housing crisis going on right now, which sucks.
Marc:What does that mean?
Marc:Too many rich people bought up the old houses?
Guest:Pretty much.
Guest:I'm definitely part of that problem, I think.
Guest:I bought a house in the last two years.
Guest:It's hard for young people to buy houses and to rent.
Marc:Now, your parents are both from New Zealand?
Guest:My parents are both from New Zealand.
Guest:My mother is Croatian.
Marc:How did she get there?
Marc:How did the Croatians get to New Zealand?
Guest:There are actually like, there's like 100,000 kind of Dalmatian, Croatian, Yugoslav people.
Marc:So it's like a big... And they've been there for generations?
Guest:A lot of them have been there for a long time.
Guest:There's a lot of wine.
Guest:Dalmatians make a lot of wine down there.
Guest:And...
Guest:Yeah, so I'm Croatian.
Guest:I have a Croatian citizenship.
Marc:You just get that from being Croatian because your mom's Croatian?
Guest:I got that from being, I think, a bit of a fancy famous Croatian.
Marc:I think not every Croatian.
Marc:They're taking ownership.
Guest:She's one of ours.
Guest:I think they hooked me up, so to speak.
Guest:My dad's Irish.
Marc:Straight up Irish, like from Ireland?
Guest:No, he was born in New Zealand also, but his family is like full Irish.
Guest:There are corners.
Guest:He's one of seven.
Marc:Full on Catholic.
Guest:Full Catholic.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Full Catholic treatment.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:And your mom, Catholic?
Guest:I think they grew up Greek Orthodox, very religious, but we're not really a religious family.
Guest:You're not.
Guest:It's more abstract for us, I think.
Marc:It's more abstract, the religion idea.
Guest:I feel quite uncomfortable when I walk into a church.
Guest:Is that the goal?
Guest:Are they trying to make you feel?
Marc:They're designed to terrify you into being humbled.
Guest:Yeah, I'm so in touch with the universe on a spiritual level, but I don't get it.
Marc:And you walk into a church and it just shuts it right off.
Guest:Yeah, it's terrifying.
Marc:But it's elaborate enough trying to trick you into thinking that's the universe.
Guest:Maybe, yeah.
Marc:Have you been to Italy?
Marc:I have.
Marc:Have you ever gone to those cathedrals in Italy where you're just like, what the fuck?
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:Maybe that would take it to a level I would understand.
Marc:Well, I don't know if it'll make you feel any better.
Guest:Oh, that's worse.
Marc:But it's certainly designed to create awe.
Guest:I am a fan of the...
Guest:of the awe yeah the beauty terror sure uh right intersection yeah you know but it doesn't need to be all gaudy yeah i think of being all gaudy i mean it doesn't get more gaudy than like a giant beach in new zealand i know where the waves are just like smacking you know it's like kind of i can only imagine i've not been there i've been to australia and that means nothing i know that's almost condescending for me to say that like i was i was close yeah it's not relatively close to new zealand yeah you got to get down there i'm
Marc:gonna i'm gonna come i'm gonna i'm gonna show up at your house like hey remember please don't do that no i got the spare room yeah just book it um but but what did you grow up with like what was your mom like what if it wasn't uh a religious house did you what what inspired you when you're a kid you know like what what was your what did they lay on you your parents
Guest:What did they lay on me?
Marc:For better or for worse.
Guest:For better or for worse.
Guest:They just... I think my main thing when I think about it is my mom is a poet.
Guest:She was a school teacher.
Guest:Was she a real poet?
Guest:She's a big deal poet.
Guest:She's like a real poet.
Guest:She's won awards in New Zealand.
Guest:She's an amazing poet.
Marc:A lot of books out?
Guest:She's put books out, yeah.
Guest:She hasn't put one out in a while, but they...
Guest:are all like big deals when she puts them out she's badass yeah um but i think poetry's tough oh i couldn't imagine i find it but you're a songwriter i mean you do know oh it's so different though i'm writing short stories you know right i'm not writing poems but so what kind of form does she is she like free verse or she was tightly structured like she's she's pretty she's pretty free verse yeah she yeah yeah she's so good and you're reading her poetry like when you were a kid
Guest:I wasn't, but I think what she really instilled in me was this like sensory kind of like magnification.
Guest:Like I am such a, I'm so governed by all of my senses and all the work that I make.
Guest:I have like crazy synesthesia.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:Synesthesia is like when like senses overlaps with me, you know, colors and textures and tones.
Guest:correspond with music and words and linguistic stuff and oral stuff.
Marc:How does that manifest itself?
Marc:Do you go into an overload or when you hear certain sounds, you see things?
Guest:It's a lot.
Marc:Do you have to stop talking sometimes?
Guest:I have to.
Marc:Is it medicatable?
Guest:I wish.
Guest:I actually do wish sometimes because it is very overwhelming.
Marc:What does it feel like when it's overwhelming to have that?
Guest:I mean, it guides a lot of the music that I make.
Guest:For sure, I make very visual music, very colorful music.
Guest:So for me, when something is just at peak ultraviolet or peak blue or whatever, I'm heading in the right direction.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:it can be a lot and it is like hard to um i basically have to make music with my eyes closed like it's a lot i can't you know some people have tvs going in the studio i would find that impossible because you know my girlfriend has this the hypersensitivity thing where noises kind of yes yeah yeah h i don't know i forget what it's called it's but it's a real thing yeah it's where you're like if you go into an echoey room you're like ah
Guest:I gotta get out of here.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:When I'm in, I've been in a couple of near car crashes, and both times the person next to me has said, why did you put your hands over your ears instead of your eyes?
Guest:You know, most people would not want to look, but I don't want to hear it.
Guest:Because it'll just blow your mind out?
Guest:Yeah, it's too potent.
Guest:It's terrifying.
Marc:So how did you, like, what music were you listening to as a kid where, you know, this wouldn't destroy your brain?
Guest:I mean, everything sort of destroys one's brain.
Guest:You know what is quite good for synesthesia is, weirdly, guitar music is not so overwhelming in terms of, so like I can listen to- Acoustic guitar music, you mean?
Guest:Like I could listen to Neil Young or I could listen to- Oh, that's good.
Guest:Even Fleetwood Mac was not so overwhelming synesthetically.
Marc:Like how, which era of Fleetwood Mac?
Marc:The girls or?
Marc:I go way back with Fleetwood Mac.
Guest:I go way fucking back with Fleetwood Mac.
Guest:You go back to the blues?
Guest:I'm Peter Green.
Guest:Come on!
Guest:Come on!
Guest:I mean, I was just saying yesterday I was like, I need some Peter Green Fleetwood Mac merch.
Guest:Because they have Rumors Fleetwood Mac merch.
Guest:Everyone's got Tango Fleetwood Mac merch.
Guest:Where's the Peter Green Fleetwood Mac merch?
Marc:I just got a Peter Green record I didn't even know about.
Marc:I talk about him constantly.
Guest:I'm obsessed with Fleetwood Mac Peter Green.
Guest:And I think you have to think of them as two different bands, don't you?
Guest:They're so different.
Guest:It's the greatest shit ever.
Guest:And it's so fun to start as a rumors Fleetwood Mac fan and go back.
Guest:I mean, it's like Genesis.
Guest:It's like getting to hear the two Genesis.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the thing with Genesis is like those guys know like Peter Green becomes this mysterious figure.
Marc:Oh, like insane.
Marc:Did you see the documentary?
Guest:I have not seen it.
Guest:I've heard about it.
Guest:I got to see it.
Marc:You can just watch it on YouTube.
Marc:It's the man of the world.
Guest:God, I'm obsessed with it.
Marc:He's just this little chubby guy now, like a little old dude.
Guest:I wish people gave him more credit.
Marc:I never, you know, anyone who knows about Peter Green, I never shut up about it.
Guest:It's the best.
Marc:He's the best singer, the best blues player.
Guest:It's the best.
Guest:But so that stuff is a little more, that's a bit intense synesthetically.
Guest:But so like stuff growing up that I, which I've sort of all just come back to now, like
Guest:Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Just simple Graham Nash demos.
Marc:The Graham Nash guy?
Marc:You like Graham Nash person?
Guest:Obsessed.
Guest:The best.
Guest:You're not a Graham Nash person.
Guest:You're out of all of them.
Marc:Are you a Stills person?
Marc:I like Stills voice.
Guest:I can imagine you being more of a Stills person.
Guest:Graham Nash is for the ladies.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:Yeah, he's a little too... It's a moche.
Marc:It's a moche.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I like Stills as an early guitar player.
Marc:He's a great singer.
Marc:I had Crosby in here.
Marc:He's great.
Guest:Shit.
Marc:You know who said nice things about you is Randy Newman.
Guest:Oh, my goodness, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:He's like, I'd like to write a satirical song for someone like Lorde.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Randy Newman.
Marc:He said that.
Guest:Shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, thanks, Randy Newman.
Marc:Randy Newman's great.
Marc:So you're going back to those guys, the harmonies and stuff.
Marc:You love it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I sort of like, I fucking love it.
Guest:And I love Mamas and the Papas.
Guest:That gets a little bit intense anesthesia-wise for me.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Mamas and the Papas.
Marc:Because of all the voices?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, just not the voices, but, you know, instantly they're just like, there's this crazy modulation going on.
Guest:All of a sudden we're in a different key and it's like, that can get crazy synesthesia wise.
Guest:Put on some mums and papas.
Marc:That's like, really go there.
Marc:But is it a good feeling?
Guest:It's the best.
Marc:I mean, it's again, it's beauty terror.
Guest:It's horrific and it's wonderful.
Guest:It's very frightening.
Marc:It's built in.
Guest:It's fully built in.
Guest:You don't have to go outside yourself to access it.
Guest:It's not getting off this train.
Guest:It's what I'm dealing with.
Marc:So where the hell did you find Peter Green?
Guest:Where did I find Peter Green?
Marc:Because someone's got to turn you on to that shit.
Guest:I remember I got into this...
Guest:I was on YouTube in, like, a YouTube hole when I was, like, 14.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I found this, just, like, a 20-minute, like, they just must have had some, like, room mic going.
Guest:And they just sort of all, he's just sort of talking to everyone.
Guest:And they just sort of start.
Marc:The sort of depth of sadness and feeling in his playing and his singing.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:It's sort of mind-blowing.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Oh, fuck Showbiz Blues.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's a great song.
Guest:So fun.
Marc:Yeah, that's a great song.
Marc:I used to play that before I performed.
Marc:I had it on my mix.
Guest:Oh, man.
Marc:Yeah, I love that one.
Guest:It's good.
Marc:It's kind of a hard one to find.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:So this is that bizarre little clip on YouTube.
Guest:It was just sort of them talking to each other and building it.
Guest:And I was like, oh, I'm about to have a little moment with Peter Green.
Marc:Oh, building the song.
Marc:Well, what's that experience?
Marc:Because I noticed when I was looking at the credits, because I've talked to Antonoff before, and he's like a little wizard.
Marc:And his whole story is kind of amazing.
Marc:He's such an amazing musician, but he's also got an incredible feel for things.
Marc:The difference between, what is it, Steel Train and Bleachers is kind of profound.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that he just sort of... He kind of appropriated this sort of hippie trip to sort of ease him through grief.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:And then he was sort of done with it.
Marc:He didn't look back on that album or those albums.
Marc:But he obviously has gotten an amazing talent and intuition for music.
Marc:So when you see something like...
Marc:Peter Green and those guys just building up from a song.
Marc:How do you guys do it?
Marc:Because I noticed on the credits, there were no... When I looked at... I don't know where I looked at them up.
Marc:Maybe on Wikipedia.
Marc:There were people involved, but it didn't say who played the instruments.
Marc:It said people mixed or produced.
Marc:It was a bunch of producer listings.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Like, who the fuck's playing piano?
Marc:What's going on?
Guest:That's a good question.
Guest:What the fuck's going on?
Guest:So our process is like...
Guest:Everything with me starts in the smallest possible capacity.
Guest:I don't like to write with anyone in the room.
Guest:It's very minimal.
Guest:It will really just be two bodies, and that will be Jack and I. But did you show up with these songs for the new record?
Guest:No.
Guest:I would show up with like big arms of them.
Guest:I like to let stuff happen in a room because I think it can be kind of amazing.
Guest:And we would sort of sit at the piano and kind of things would start growing.
Guest:And then like a lot of that production stuff is because we wouldn't let anyone in our room.
Guest:We would send it out, get it back, get the session, take tiny little moments and add them to our studio.
Guest:mess but like what are those moments like i don't like for me like i'll record some guitar in here yeah like but yeah yeah but it seems like things are are much more complicated at the level that electronic music like it all gets a bit kind of weird i mean obviously jack is playing a lot of like uh analog synths all the time he played the piano on the record there are like occasional moments there's a lot of piano yeah yeah yeah but it's actual piano real yeah jack's on that
Guest:Jack's tickling the old ivories.
Guest:He played a tiny bit of guitar, a lot of synths, and we just programmed a bunch of drums.
Guest:And that was it?
Guest:It's kind of it.
Guest:I mean, my last record, I had literally not one real instrument, and not one in the whole record.
Guest:Not even a nice analog synth.
Guest:We were fucking broke.
Guest:It makes me sad.
Guest:Why?
Guest:I think it's magical.
Guest:It's definitely magical.
Guest:I come from that culture of no one having any instruments.
Guest:What does that mean?
Guest:Sounds come from computers.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I think it's...
Guest:really magical there's something kind of like communist about it like you don't have to often as you get uh like more into music like you know i started making like a second album which by that point people were like oh should we show you some rich stuff and they like put you in the rich studio you know they show you like the rich mixing desk and you're like
Guest:This doesn't feel like any kid could have.
Guest:I love the idea of every kid getting the same set of cracked plug-ins that they steal from the internet.
Guest:And that's how we made the song that won us a Grammy.
Guest:It's literally cracked plug-ins.
Marc:That's how you made Royals?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you didn't want to... We didn't pay for Pro Tools for like a year after that.
Guest:We should start paying for this thing.
Guest:Don't worry Pro Tools, we pay now.
Guest:I guess it's not a culture that I come from.
Guest:I don't play any instrument well enough, really.
Guest:But I can program the shit out of a drum.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's what you grew up doing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But when you first started singing or writing songs, when did that start?
Marc:I know it has to be relatively recent memory.
Marc:When I started singing and stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you do it in school?
Marc:Were you a performer or what?
No.
Guest:I didn't really do it in school because I feel like you had to know how to like read music at school, which I couldn't do.
Guest:But I was like in and out of the like, I was always in the barbershop room, like putting together some crazy barbershop quartet piece, which I feel like is very much my roots now.
Guest:You know, I'm like stacking vocals.
Marc:What's the barbershop room?
Guest:You know, like, quartet music.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So you're putting together, like, baritone and bass.
Marc:So you're doing that by yourself, though?
Guest:Kids' crazy blends.
Guest:No, I would be with, like, the other, like, singing nerds.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:So there were humans involved at that time.
Guest:There were sometimes other humans involved.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I did, I was in, like, a theater company when I was a kid, like a local.
Marc:Kids' theater?
Guest:Kids' theater, yeah.
Marc:So you were a show person?
Yeah.
Guest:I was somewhat a show person, but I was, like, cripplingly nervous and, like, I would have to step so far outside of myself for that to, like, even be something I could do.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And even now, I'm, like, it's very hard for me to, like, be an outward person.
Marc:Is it?
Marc:So do you have to go into, like, a trance almost?
Marc:Because it seems like when you perform, it's very engaged and very, like, you know, like, it has an effect on it.
Guest:That's what they say.
Guest:They say it makes people very uncomfortable.
Guest:I'm enjoying looking at this hammer, just as a side note.
Guest:What's going on with this broken hammer?
Guest:With the broken hammer?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You're like Peter Green.
Marc:Dropped it off one day.
Marc:Yeah, it's a Peter Green artifact.
Marc:That's actually Peter Green's hammer.
Marc:I think I found it on the street.
Guest:I like this.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It was a piece.
Marc:It was a fragment.
Guest:With the cat.
Marc:Yeah, that's an unpressed record right there, that orange bit.
Marc:Oh, fuck.
Marc:Shit.
Marc:That's right before they squish it into a record.
Guest:That's amazing.
Marc:Isn't that wild?
Guest:I've never seen that before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:Sorry I cut you off.
Marc:Oh, no, but... Yeah, but... Oh, it's performing.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it's...
Guest:I really have to just dial all the way out of the rest of my life and all the way into that and totally live inside it to be able to do it.
Marc:Do you choreograph?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I mean, I choreographed a dance for the first time at the VMAs the other day.
Marc:So you don't do that kind of show?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I just let it happen.
Guest:I think it was like fun.
Guest:All of a sudden you're like, I'm on my knees, on the grass, 200 meters away from the stage.
Guest:Everyone's like, get back here.
Guest:Does that happen?
Guest:Do you go that far?
Guest:I run.
Guest:I really run.
Guest:I run far.
Guest:I've gotten way far before.
Marc:It feels good to do that.
Guest:It feels amazing.
Guest:I always take my shoes off down there as well.
Marc:When you perform?
Guest:Yeah, if it looks like there's not going to be a bunch of used syringes down there, I'll just take a shoe off and go for a run.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:I'm glad that you're at least careful.
Marc:So you're doing barbershop music with other nerds.
Marc:You're in school.
Marc:You're performing a bit.
Marc:But at some point, there must have been, you know, how does it come together that you start writing and performing music?
Marc:It wasn't all electronic at the beginning, no?
Yeah.
Guest:It's always been pretty.
Guest:It's way less electronic now.
Guest:The fact that I had this big renaissance with all of this 60s and 70s guitar music.
Guest:I truly come from a very hip-hop, very electronic background.
Guest:And the vocal stuff was kind of the main live element for a long time.
Guest:But I don't know.
Guest:I was...
Guest:I got into it, I guess, like... I started... I mean, I've always been a singer.
Marc:There's never been a guitar guy in your life?
Guest:A guitar guy.
Marc:You know, the guy that plays guitar.
Guest:I mean, there was like...
Guest:I did like a handful of, you know, I played some like covers when I was like 12.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For a short time.
Marc:You're saying that like it was so long ago, but that's like a year before you became famous.
Guest:That was like a solid nine years ago, Mark.
Guest:I will have you know.
Marc:But you were on the brink.
Marc:Hot decade.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I think when I was 14, I started like properly writing music.
Guest:We wrote Royals.
Guest:I was 15.
Guest:We?
Guest:Who's we?
Guest:Joel and I. So Joel was the guy who I first started writing songs with, and he produced stuff.
Marc:Where did you know him from?
Guest:We met in New Zealand.
Marc:He's a New Zealand guy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He lives in LA now.
Marc:He's a producer.
Guest:He's a producer and a songwriter, yeah.
Marc:Did he find you?
Guest:He did not.
Guest:We were introduced.
Guest:I basically was sort of approached by...
Guest:the record company because you were performing where because i they saw me sing in a school talent show they sort of video of it like high school intermediate school so that's junior high yeah it's sort of yeah so they're like you gotta see this somebody said someone said you gotta someone's parents would take you get this so this is the guitar guy the short-lived moment of guitar guy his parents right actually sent it in my parents were like
Guest:What are you doing?
Guest:How dare you do this?
Guest:My parents are like, we want you to be a lawyer.
Guest:Like, don't do this.
Marc:So you were on stage with that guy and his parents shot it?
Guest:Yeah, his dad shot it, I think.
Marc:And at that time it was you singing and he was playing guitar.
Guest:He's playing, yes.
Guest:Guitar guy.
Guest:Guitar guy.
Guest:His name is Louie.
Guest:He's a very sweet boy.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And are you guys still friends?
Guest:I am gonna, he lives in a different country now, but I'm gonna try to see him on tour.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you and Louie, so Louie's parents are like, just these kids got something, and they send it in to a friend of theirs who they know, or?
Guest:I'm not actually, like, that part of it is weirdly unclear to me, and it's something that I've never, like, pursued, because it was just one of those bizarre, like, moments of fate, I think.
Guest:But for a long time, the record company were like, we want you to do this thing.
Guest:And I was like, no, thanks.
Guest:Like, I don't...
Guest:what was the thing well so funny they initially were like oh we could just like you know just stone you you know just like sing a bunch of like old school songs yeah loved i mean she was wonderful but um you know i knew that like i was already writing then and like you know making my own clothes and like my room was just like this insane fucking collage fest like it was never gonna be like i was never like sit down and sing like a change is gonna come you know what i mean
Guest:So I was like, let me just think about a way this is going to work.
Guest:So they sort of introduced me to a couple of songwriters.
Guest:Then I met Joel.
Guest:Then I realized, oh, fuck, I've just met the rest of my life.
Guest:This is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life.
Marc:He impressed you.
Guest:He showed me what it was that I could do.
Guest:understand how fucking compulsive writing a song is and having it tick the boxes you need it to tick in your brain.
Guest:And that was like the first moment where I really met my synesthesia in a big way, writing songs.
Guest:And it's just like, it's like drugs, you know, seeing all these colors and just sitting in the studio and chasing it for like 18 hours.
Guest:Cause you're like, I just have to get this thing down.
Guest:Like I was like, Oh God, it's very clear to me.
Guest:I've like, I've met the thing that is going to compel me for the rest of my life.
Marc:Well, so, like, when you talk about a challenge like that, like, because I've only, you know, I recently watched the Jimmy Iovine.
Marc:Oh, yeah, I haven't seen that yet.
Marc:Dr. Dre thing.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:You know, to spend 17 hours on a song.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Like, okay, let's take a song, like, I'm sure you've talked about Royals enough, but let's, like, let's, now that, you know, this is the new album when the single is Greenlight.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:which I saw you do on SNL and it reminded me that I liked you because the last, but my only experience really has been visual both times and singing, but it was with the Nirvana induction.
Marc:Like that's the first time I saw you where I was like, what the fuck just happened?
Guest:Me too.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:What am I doing?
Guest:Stupid.
Marc:But but like the challenge of a song like that.
Marc:So you're sitting with Jack now.
Marc:What do you do for 17 hours?
Marc:So you have words and what's the nitpicking?
Guest:oh the nitpicking i mean like when yeah jack would happily not nitpick to the level that i i mean i'm just i really come from such a um like i grew up listening to all this like classic 70s music and i also just was obsessed with pop music i was a kid in the best pop music time ever which was you know 2001 to 2007 right uh okay
Guest:you're like fine yeah well if we take the 80s out like who are these artists tell me because i i mean just you know it was like it was the timberland moment it was like you know we have nelly fatata making sure the most profound pop music of the 2000s like it is just you know we have justin tim blake making so these these six love sounds like right so that was your aspiration
Guest:I saw how powerful it was when you really believed in the tenements of it and you really stick to the rules of it.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:What are the rules telling you?
Guest:If you add an extra syllable onto a verse in a pop song or if you fit in a word that doesn't quite sing when you sing it, you're just shooting yourself in the foot.
Guest:You have to be so...
Marc:And you're looking for that hook too, right?
Guest:I mean, like even in Royals, I think on the first day it went magnums, Maybach, diamonds on your tongue.
Guest:Like magnum of champagne.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But magnums, Maybach, that doesn't fucking sing.
Guest:Like even if you want the word magnums in there, it's like, no, no, no, no.
Guest:We've got to bounce crystal, Maybach.
Guest:You know, it's just shit like that that you have to obey.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I really like.
Guest:So the meticulousness comes from like.
Marc:I want you to sing the whole verse now.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:I'm so sick, Mark.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:It's just so funny.
Guest:I almost died.
Marc:You're just making an example, and I'm like, oh, that's from this album.
Guest:Yeah, but so with a song like Greenlight, it's just like I'm very specific on tenses and stuff.
Guest:Jack would be like, you can just say this, it sounds good, and I'm like, no, no, because using that tense completely transforms this.
Marc:Like then or now?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:kind of thing I don't know there's like little things like so the first verse goes I do my makeup in somebody else's car which is like a specific vignette from my life literally sitting in the front seat trying to do my eyeliner in a different boy's car which is like very like boom new relationship second verse is so it goes I do my makeup in somebody else's car next one is
Guest:Sometimes I wake up in a different bedroom.
Guest:You know, it's just those tiny little things that cinch your pop song together in the best way.
Marc:Yeah, and they're tight.
Marc:They're poetic and they have legs.
Marc:There's math, but the images, you know what I mean?
Marc:I think so.
Marc:Yeah, they're very concise.
Guest:I think, yeah, I'm like the biggest Carver head of all time.
Guest:I just grew up reading Carver.
Marc:You like it tight.
Guest:I like it fucking tight.
Marc:Tight and sad if you like Raymond Carver.
Guest:Tight.
Guest:Tight and sad.
Guest:That's the vibe.
Guest:Dancing and crying.
Guest:Tight and sad.
Marc:Good.
Guest:That's it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But so there was like four years between these records, right?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:What were you doing?
Marc:Just having a life?
Guest:I was touring for ages.
Guest:I feel like people forget.
Marc:On Royals, on that first record?
Guest:On Pure Heroin, yeah.
Guest:You're like, what is it?
Guest:Let me find it on the computer.
Guest:It's okay, Mac.
Guest:I listen to it.
Marc:It's okay.
Marc:You're an easier artist to research.
Marc:There's only two fucking records.
Guest:There's two records.
Marc:Even if I like somebody.
Guest:What are you going to do when you get Peter Green in here?
Guest:You're going to have to like.
Marc:I've had Neil Young in here.
Marc:I've had people with, like, you think they only have, you love five of their records, and you think maybe they have 10 records out, but then you go look, they're like, oh, there's 90.
Marc:But it gets a little tricky.
Marc:But you know what's interesting, though, is it's two records, but because I talked to Antonoff, and I know that this math you're talking about, it's sort of fascinating, the idea of fully consciously making a hit record.
Marc:You know, like to try to make a pop song.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know, like when I heard Greenlight for the first time when I saw you on SNL, and it goes into like the little Caribbean almost.
Guest:Yeah, the French house little moment.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I'm like, oh, this is going to be good.
Marc:I'm moving around.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm visualizing you boogieing.
Marc:Yeah, I can boogie.
Marc:But was that in the... Because the song is about moving on, right?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:So where'd the island theme come from?
Guest:The island theme... Well, I would say it's more French than Caribbean.
Guest:I'm going to hold it to that part of the world.
Guest:But I don't know.
Guest:It was just like an interesting vibe.
Guest:That sort of actually came from Jack, the idea of that French...
Guest:Piano kind of knocking in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It felt so sort of joyous.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's like important to signpost that joy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it was just an idea you had in the moment.
Marc:That was part of building the song.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I think that was just like... Did you have the words already?
Guest:They came... We had... I had the... Actually, I had the first verse, which like was in another song.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In this really different context.
Guest:And I had the...
Guest:I thought you said, did you would always be in love, which is very like Shangri-La's, you know, da-da-da, da-da-da, da-da-da, like all those sort of rhythms.
Guest:Yeah, so I had like a lot of it sort of coming together and then Jack kind of introduced that piano part and then we're away.
Marc:And is Jack like referencing, he knows where you're going with these references?
Marc:Is he contributing references?
Guest:We definitely, I would like play him, you know, I'd play him that Shangri-La stuff, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He definitely, we don't sit around playing a lot of references, but we do, we'll put it, we'll take a lot of songs to the piano.
Guest:So we'll take like, you know, a Crosby Sills song and tear it apart.
Marc:Like which one?
Guest:I think I enjoy those guys most separated out.
Guest:I get the most out of them as separate people.
Guest:We would play Our House and work out these little things that make it such a special pop song.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's a sweet song.
Guest:It's sweet.
Marc:Is that Graham's?
Guest:Him and Joni, but I think Crosby's a big part of it.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:He'll tweet at you if you tweet at him.
Guest:Oh, I can't.
Guest:I can't meet my heroes.
Guest:It's too stressful for me.
Guest:My fear is that I'm going to meet Paul Simon somewhere and just fall over.
Marc:How fucking good is Paul Simon?
Guest:How fucking good is Paul Simon?
Guest:And how underrated?
Marc:I don't think he's underrated.
Marc:I think he's done all right for himself.
Guest:I don't think you've got to worry about it.
Guest:I think people think of him as not one of the cool guys.
Marc:But he is the cool guys.
Marc:I think that's true.
Marc:And I wonder why that happens too.
Marc:It's also like, why don't more people know about Peter Green?
Marc:I've taken it upon myself for the last five years to champion Peter Green wherever I can.
Marc:And Paul Simon gets a little trickier.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's easier to, I can understand why people don't.
Marc:Like I go, like lately I've been championing his very first record a bit.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:Wait, Furry Hood?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:okay can we just have a moment to talk about run that body down oh my god how good is run that body down yeah i mean it's crazy that really does it because i love baby paul simon he sat i mean like duncan he sounds like a little baby he kills me doesn't he sound so he sounds you think about that man who's gonna sing he's the child from my first marriage and you can't even you can barely picture him in that kid it's but run that body down i'm like oh there he is you can see the kid that's gonna he said that
Guest:Paul, you better go down.
Guest:Drive to Graceland.
Guest:How long you think that you can run that body down?
Guest:Yeah, oh, man.
Guest:How long you think that you can do what you've been doing?
Guest:Oh, shit!
Guest:Okay, good.
Marc:Yeah, I did.
Marc:Like that record just blew.
Guest:We sampled him on the album.
Marc:You did?
Guest:We sampled.
Guest:So there's this amazing Graceland documentary.
Guest:He's like driving back and forth from like Montauk or something.
Guest:And there's this tape in his car.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's Ladysmith Black Mombasa.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he actually can't find the source of the tape.
Guest:And so he has to go to Warner Brothers and be like, find this tape.
Guest:This is like so far preaches them.
Guest:It's like a blank tape and they have to find it.
Guest:But he says, in the best Paul voice, he says, what is this tape?
Guest:This is my favorite tape.
Guest:and we put it on the album.
Guest:It makes me so happy that he's on there.
Guest:And Graceland was really... I listened to it and it's sort of like... I hadn't listened to it in a while and it sort of smacked me across the head in the way that My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy did when I was 12.
Guest:Which one?
Guest:The Kanye record.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It was the pink cover, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's sort of like a Kanye record, Graceland, and it's so fucking...
Guest:succinct and it's just like, this is what it is.
Guest:It's just so kind of obvious.
Guest:Production is pretty amazing.
Guest:I mean, it's the best.
Guest:And I just sort of listened to that and I was like, oh, a lot of these disciplines are what I need to apply to this record.
Guest:I need to just keep it simple.
Marc:Keep it simple, but keep it tight and sad.
Guest:Tight and sad.
Guest:Shit, man.
Guest:Tight and sad.
Marc:How much like, okay, so you were touring forever because the Royals came out when you're like, what?
Marc:14, 13, 14?
Marc:So it was actually 16 when it came out.
Marc:16, okay.
Marc:So you toured, so you didn't really have much time in between these records?
Marc:Is that what you're trying to tell me?
Guest:Oh, that's where we started.
Guest:Sorry, that was the question we hit on literally half an hour ago before we talked about Paul Simon.
Guest:Very strong pull around there.
Guest:So I was touring for like almost two years after that came out.
Marc:I stopped touring.
Marc:You wanted to though.
Guest:You weren't being like, I did want to, I did, but I do find it.
Guest:It takes a lot out of me touring.
Marc:And you go all over the world.
Guest:Oh, we go everywhere.
Guest:I think we're going to hit every continent.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Maybe not Antarctica.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And how do you, how do you handle that on the road?
Guest:um do you just take care of yourself i mean you just like you're not you're not a party person but i mean you just not not really do you have a like a structure do you do you like just i don't sleep very well so i find it general difficult yeah i don't think many do you do buses musicians do hotels we do buses uh the bus is quite a good sleeping yeah tool we do buses in in america and then we do hotels a lot of other places but um
Guest:Yeah, so we did that record.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then it was early 2015.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I kind of wrote with people, tooled around, nothing really.
Guest:I hadn't done anything.
Guest:I didn't have another album's worth of stuff to write about.
Marc:Did you sing on anyone else's records?
Marc:Did you show up and do things with people?
Guest:I did one thing.
Guest:I was on my friends who were Disclosure, who were like an electronic act in the UK.
Guest:And I curated a soundtrack.
Yeah.
Marc:For The Hunger Games.
Guest:For The Hunger Games.
Marc:How does that come up?
Marc:They're just sort of like, let's have this Lorde girl do this.
Guest:They were like, do you want to do the end credit song?
Guest:And I was like, I want to do the whole album.
Guest:And you have to let me do what I want.
Guest:And that may include getting an insane song from Grace Jones.
Guest:And having teenagers be like, what is this bizarre Grace Jones song?
Marc:You did it.
Marc:I did.
Marc:And so they just allowed you to curate this.
Marc:And were you a fan of the books?
No.
Guest:I was a real fan of the movies.
Guest:I had seen that first movie and I remember being so gripped by like how good it was and how simple it was for a blockbuster.
Guest:You remember that first one?
Guest:It was all kind of handheld and Jane was just so fucking good.
Guest:It was just her in the forest the whole time.
Guest:She just crushed it.
Guest:So I was like, I'm going to do this.
Marc:And they just let you do it.
Guest:They let me do it.
Guest:They literally, I just did it on a tour bus for five months.
Guest:And we had like, we got Simon Le Bon on there doing like this awesome verse on my friend Charlie song.
Guest:It was fun.
Guest:We just did all this weird shit.
Marc:Simon Le Bon.
Marc:Did you decide Simon Le Bon?
Guest:I decided Simon Le Bon.
Guest:And he signs off all of his emails with whoosh.
Guest:Whoosh.
Marc:He writes whoosh?
Guest:He writes whoosh, which I think is kind of very Simon Le Bon to like whoosh the email out into the atmosphere.
Marc:So you really like, you know, you're sort of like obsessively feeding this personal rabbit hole full of music.
Guest:Yes, it's very selfish.
Guest:No, it's good.
Marc:It's good because it gives you all these different points of reference.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I think so.
Marc:So, okay, so you were working, in other words.
Marc:It wasn't like you took all this time off to kind of have a life or whatever.
Guest:I was working, yeah.
Guest:No, I haven't had life.
Guest:But work is like, I don't feel like I need to relax because work is... Yeah, it's time to work.
Guest:And it's like I'm feeding my soul also.
Guest:So, you know, if it was just like number crunching or something, that would be terrible.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But once you perform, once you get it all together, once the song comes together, I mean, it seems like doing electronic music.
Marc:Are you a Brian Eno fan?
Guest:I'm kind of a Brian Eno fan.
Guest:I think I need to go there more.
Guest:I'm like Phil Collins.
Guest:That's my pop shit.
Marc:You don't like Phil Collins?
Marc:I don't know, man.
Guest:You don't like Phil Collins?
Marc:Fuck!
Yeah.
Marc:Shit, man.
Marc:Eni?
Marc:Look, I know the songs.
Marc:They played them a lot.
Marc:I don't seek them out.
Marc:There's something about him personally that annoys me.
Guest:Really?
Marc:I don't even know what it is.
Marc:Are you friends with him?
Marc:No.
Marc:Have you met him?
Marc:No.
Marc:I mean, I'm a troll from New Zealand.
Guest:Why would I have met Phil Collins?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You'll meet people.
Marc:You can meet whoever you want.
Marc:Randy Newman would play piano for you happily right now.
Marc:I can't handle it.
Guest:My favorite pop males are the guys that sound like a combination of your boyfriend and your dad.
Guest:That's Phil.
Guest:He's your dad and he's your boyfriend.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I'm not going to begrudge you it.
Guest:And I know that he's a great- I wish you liked Phil.
Marc:Oh, God.
Guest:Will you just talk about it?
Marc:I'd rather sell me on Phil.
Marc:Okay, give me the boyfriend, dad thing.
Guest:Oh, boy.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Which Phil Collins song has inspired you the most?
Guest:oh i mean i think the disciplines of a lot of the like real pop ones have like inspired me very tangibly but the one that i would play to you if we were like yeah dark outside yeah would be take me home okay it just journeys it uh he's like he's singing from the perspective of a mental patient but it um you know it's so simple it's just the drums yeah take take me home oh yeah of course i don't remember
Guest:Take, take me home.
Guest:It's just all these harmonies.
Guest:It's a six-minute song.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I have no far horizons.
Guest:I don't like to go outside.
Guest:You've got to listen to it in the rain sometimes.
Marc:You're helping me appreciate it.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I can love it.
Guest:What about something happens on the way to heaven?
Marc:I'm late to the party with a lot of things because I don't know how to get in.
Marc:And just hearing you do that.
Guest:That's a great point.
Marc:But it's pure pop.
Marc:It's sugar.
Guest:Full sugar.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I can understand that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, it's really a personal problem I'm having with Phil.
Guest:I can understand that.
Marc:I know that he's a musical wizard.
Marc:I know he's one of the magicians.
Marc:I get it.
Guest:I think when you're like a little drum kid, you know, someone like Phil Collins is like Jesus because he just like, he taught all of us how to do it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So this record, I'm going to listen more intently now.
Marc:I'm going to take your advice.
Marc:Because like when you talked about...
Marc:Because what you do vocally, which is, you know, what you do, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, you have to have certain, you know, launching points.
Marc:And, you know, when you just captured that moment of what he did vocally, it would make me appreciate that more.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Do you see?
Marc:But I don't even notice those things all the time.
Marc:Like, I know when Bowie changes pitch on Heroes, you know, and I'm waiting for it.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So, you know, and I can definitely appreciate him in all his nuances.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:But I just like, I'm much more interested in him as a person.
Marc:So, you know, I've got to somehow get past my judgment of Phil.
Guest:Right.
Marc:As this annoying little guy.
Guest:Well, are you a Eurythmics person?
Marc:No.
Marc:No, I don't mind.
Guest:I like her.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:But do you like him?
Marc:He's okay, he's annoying, but I can take the Eurythmics record because of her.
Guest:Are you into the best Tom Petty song of all time, Don't Come Around Here, Don't Know What?
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Dave Stewart, right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I don't have a problem with Dave Stewart.
Marc:And he can play guitar too.
Guest:Do you have a problem with me calling that the best Tom Petty song of all time?
Marc:you're like a little bit a little a little what's your favorite song uh well i actually like oh yeah very much uh there's some songs off the second there's like that country song uh mystery man on the second record i think and i like i'm a big fan of that very first record i love american girl uh but i also love i love american girl too
Marc:There's so many Tom Petty songs.
Guest:Yeah, I mean.
Marc:I just got the boxes.
Marc:We're very spoiled.
Guest:Oh, shit.
Marc:There's two boxes.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I need the boxes.
Marc:You need the box.
Marc:Do you do vinyl?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:Not yet?
Guest:That's all right.
Guest:I've had a few moments where I've put on a record and I've put it on at the wrong speed.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Why would you do vinyl?
Marc:You don't even do instruments.
Guest:I don't.
Guest:It's a little past my... I mean, it's like very... I know, it's old guy stuff.
Guest:It's not, though, but I just... Not a vinyl nerd.
Guest:I want to be.
Guest:I would want to be.
Guest:So let's talk about the... Sorry, I really took you down a rabbit hole with the Phil, Dave Stewart, Tom Petty...
Marc:No, I like Eurythmics.
Marc:And there's that song that she does with... I think it's on a Eurythmics album.
Marc:It might be on a solo album.
Marc:I'm not sure.
Marc:No, it's on the one she does with Elvis Costello.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I like that.
Guest:I like that.
Guest:The one that I like that... And again, it's like...
Guest:it's not it's the same with Phil it's not subtle I think that's why people find they had to get an entry point but like all that stuff is like the reason I make pop music must be talking to an angel must be talking to an angel it's just like it's a little it's the best it's the best
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Marc:I get it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But the funny thing about you, though, is that your voice, just by virtue of your natural gift and magic, is that it brings a depth to it somehow.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:And I'm trying not to be undercutting.
Marc:Because I know that there's nothing you're going to tell me that, like, oh, the reason that happens.
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:My voice?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Maybe.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What do you want to know?
Marc:um well how do you and like because i would i read a couple people's what how they described your voice it's hard to describe but it's very moving and i guess you know because of what we talked about earlier that you you're not a choreographed person you're not a person that you know does anything but fully immerse yourself in the performance that you know you make yourself very emotionally uh open
Marc:To having, you know, it seems somewhat, though controlled, raw feeling in the voice.
Marc:So, like, that's my projection.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, that's, I think that's right.
Guest:I think it's like striking a balance between...
Marc:total rawness and total uh you know pop control right so it's like the where those two things meet being able to like capture it in this very controlled environment is what i find really exciting well that's that's that's what makes you different and amazing is that uh that you can have that you know because like pure pop is great and you know you can dance to it and sometimes the words are cute and sometimes they'll make you laugh or cry but is it tight and sad
Marc:Tight and safe.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:But how much of this was it... I know it's like... I read some of the press.
Marc:There's a breakup record and whatnot.
Marc:Is it?
Marc:Are you just hitting that bell a little too hard?
Guest:That's a good way of putting it.
Guest:I think I hit a lot of bells a little too hard.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I have this thing where I'm like... I realize this about my music.
Guest:Like...
Guest:I'm not trying to immortalize anyone.
Guest:It's not about, like, carving anyone else's statue in marble.
Guest:I'm only trying to crystallize my own experience.
Guest:So if it's about the reaction of someone saying something which makes me feel something, which makes me do something, that's cool.
Guest:But, like...
Guest:And yes, something can be a breakout record, but the people fall away so fast when it comes to my work.
Guest:You'll notice I never really go to length to describe other people.
Guest:It's more just someone will be a catalyst or something they say to me gets reported for a second.
Guest:It's not about...
Guest:And I think, I mean, that's, I guess that's a Paul Simon thing too.
Guest:You know, these characters appear, but it really is about him personally and the colors of his spectrum.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's also, you know, it seems like a lot of good songs are cryptic enough or vague enough to mean a lot to a lot of different things to as many people as possible.
Marc:Everyone's going to have their own relationship with a pop song or with a lyric, especially if it's not that specific.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think like dancing between like hyper specific and hyper like broad is like a cool balance.
Marc:But like even like like even putting your makeup on someone else's car.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That like that's a experiential, but it means something.
Marc:But it could mean like, you know, I didn't automatically think it was a dude's car.
Marc:I just thought that, you know, your life was harried somehow and you were you're out doing something and you weren't driving.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:I'm never driving.
Guest:I don't drive.
Marc:It's metaphoric.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It still works, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You don't drive?
Guest:I don't.
Guest:And someone actually raised an interesting point, which is so many of my songs are coming from this perspective of the passenger seat.
Guest:They were like, how's the music going to change when you start driving?
Guest:I'm following the river down the highway through the cradle of the Civil War.
Guest:How are you going to do that?
Guest:I guess I'm going to do that.
Marc:How are you going to take that Graceland drive?
Marc:How are you going to go to the Delta?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I got to do it.
Guest:Mississippi Delta, yeah.
Marc:Okay, so the heartache and the heartbreak was not some major crushing turning point in your life.
Guest:I mean, it was, but it was more what happened afterward that I found really transcendent.
Guest:I think joy is so much more transcendent than pain.
Guest:I think it's really easy to make work out of pain.
Guest:Everyone can make something really burnished and special out of pain, but I think...
Guest:Choosing joy is quite difficult and quite noble.
Guest:It's not chic.
Guest:Joy is not chic.
Guest:Misery is very chic.
Marc:I have a hard time with joy.
Marc:Does it come easy to you?
Guest:You know, I think it does because I think to be as insane as I am, you have to find something like that and just stick with it.
Marc:As a relief.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, when I'm like, you know, like I can...
Guest:The stuff that can make me cry and deeply move me is so infinitesimal and ridiculous that I have to find an outlet.
Guest:I have to find joy in the world also.
Guest:Really?
Marc:So you're saying that you get saddened by trivial bullshit?
Marc:No.
Guest:Oh, I mean, I'm just like, you know, I don't know.
Guest:I was leaving New Zealand last week and I drove past this sports field and the sun was kind of out and some kids were training for playing soccer or something.
Guest:I was just like, fuck, I need to get a handle on this.
Guest:It made you sad?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, you know.
Guest:Why?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'm just, you know, my life is like weird.
Guest:I think a lot of things are symbols for other things.
Marc:But like the simplicity of it or just a vulnerability of it or just like that was just what they were doing.
Marc:I mean, I know what you're talking about.
Marc:Yeah, it's kind of what it's like.
Marc:How moments can be moving without really, you know, you really can't attach where those emotions are coming from.
Guest:Yeah, but like every moment is like so, I just find like too much stuff moving.
Guest:So I think I have to like really make an effort to just find like simple joy in the same things.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So, right.
Guest:You have a problem with joy, do you say?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Why do you think?
Marc:Because it's hard.
Marc:Like, if you're prone to holding on to pain, whatever it is, there's a consistency to it.
Marc:And I don't know that joy has a consistency.
Marc:No, no, no.
Guest:There's no steady joy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I think that pain, if you're prone to it or hold on to it, it's a control thing.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:So, you know, the joy thing...
Marc:Yeah, like you said, the reason it's not chic is because there's a type of vulnerability to it that's very human.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think that's sort of embarrassing to watch someone experience intense joy.
Guest:It is.
Guest:Way more than pain.
Guest:You're like, I'll just leave you to do this.
Guest:And I think that's why people find what I do quite disconcerting.
Guest:I mean, this VMAs thing, people just, I don't even know if you know about it, people got so angry about me performing at the VMAs.
Marc:Why?
Marc:What did you do?
Marc:I know you were sick.
Guest:I just danced.
Marc:I just heard you were sick.
Guest:I just danced.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:And I danced with full fucking joy.
Guest:And people were like, some people were like, we get it and we love it.
Guest:And some people were like, this is offensive that I have to watch this.
Guest:And I'm like, oh, it's because it's so private seeing someone experience such joy.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:And I think that's a sad thing.
Marc:Because ultimately, if anything we should be comfortable with around each other is joy.
Marc:I'm uncomfortable with it.
Marc:When someone else is having it, I get embarrassed for them a little bit.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But you realize there's a vulnerability to it.
Guest:I think it's really changed my life, opening up to being very unafraid of intense joy publicly and privately.
Marc:Yeah, but you can't do it all the time because then you wouldn't get anything done.
Guest:I'll end up in the hospital if I have too much joy.
Guest:They'll go, okay, we'll just put this thing on you.
Guest:Yeah, medicate that joy.
Guest:Take you away, yeah.
Marc:Well, don't medicate your joy.
Marc:And thank you.
Guest:Nice parting words.
Marc:Yes, thank you for talking to me.
Marc:Thank you so much.
Marc:I think we talked about a lot of stuff.
Guest:Sorry for nerding out on that.
Marc:On Phil Collins?
Guest:On Phil Collins.
Marc:No, you got mad at me, and maybe you should.
Marc:Oh, I forgot.
Marc:Oh, what?
Marc:What compelled you to cover that Paul Westerberg song, that beautiful replacement song?
Marc:Oh, my goodness.
Marc:Talk about it.
Marc:There's your unsung hero.
Guest:There's my unsung hero.
Guest:You know, it's funny.
Guest:Whose house was I at?
Guest:I was...
Guest:Someone just played me a lot of music I'd never heard before, a lot of old music I'd never heard.
Guest:And someone played me that song and I was just like... Some songs you hear really infrequently and you feel this like just... You feel like you were robbed.
Guest:How did they get there before you?
Guest:How did they express that sentiment before you?
Guest:And that one I was just like, this is...
Guest:Someone knew me in another life and wrote the song, so I just think I had to cover it.
Guest:And we just did it really fast.
Guest:It was a quick thing.
Guest:It didn't actually, yeah, it was kind of adjacent to the album, but God, I love that song forever.
Guest:I haven't thought about that song in a long time.
Marc:Swing and Party?
Marc:Such a good one.
Marc:Did you talk to Paul Westerberg?
Guest:Never.
Marc:You got to start meeting some people.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:I'm too... It's too much.
Guest:What am I going to do when I meet Paul Simon?
Guest:What do I say to him?
Guest:What do I say to him?
Marc:It's too much.
Marc:I just shout his lyrics.
Marc:No, you just sort of go like, I really love you.
Marc:Why don't you... You know what you can do...
Marc:Is you can cover a fucking song, man.
Guest:Jack and I sung Me and Julio at Outside Lands the other day.
Guest:We just got on stage and dicked around and sung Me and Julio.
Marc:Why wouldn't you just throw a cover of, what was that?
Guest:Run That Body Down.
Guest:I should cover Run That Body Down.
Guest:Why not?
Guest:I should.
Guest:I should.
Marc:The only thing that happens is you do this thing that you love the artist and Paul Simon can put another stack of money on his stack of money.
No.
Guest:I don't think Paul Simon's going to make very much money from me seeing Run That Body Down.
Marc:I wonder about that.
Guest:Oh, goodness.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, who have you met that's been like your big number one idol?
Marc:There's been a couple.
Marc:Randy Newman was pretty big for me.
Marc:And Keith Richards I interviewed.
Marc:And I just stumbled all over myself.
Marc:Cool.
Marc:You know, those guys.
Marc:And then there are other people whose work I really like.
Marc:But Keith Richards was sort of a big deal.
Marc:But I didn't handle it that well.
Marc:It's better if I have a little distance.
Marc:It's better if I know somebody's work, but I don't love it.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:You can crash it.
Marc:Well, they can have a good conversation about it without going like, what about that time you did that thing?
Guest:That was so good.
Guest:Oh, that'll be me.
Guest:Me and Phil.
Guest:Siding at Phil.
Marc:Well, maybe you'll be on the same show and it can be sort of a respectful kind of thing.
Guest:Yeah, I think I'll just shake my hand.
Marc:Just don't like, we don't need to end again, but we're going to end again.
Guest:Oh, shit, sorry.
Marc:No, no, it's the second ending.
Guest:Oh, good.
Marc:There's two endings to this.
Marc:Thanks for talking.
Guest:Thank you so much.
Marc:okay all right so that was enjoyable um since you guys are enjoying some dirty guitar i pulled out the pulled out the dirty uh one of the dirty gibsons and i'm gonna plug it into the dirty old man and just let it rip a little but you know just just raw gut shit no noodling
Guest:guitar solo
Boomer lives!