Episode 835 - The Lucas Brothers
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck, buddies?
Marc:What the fuck in here is what the fuck, nicks?
Marc:What the fuck, crats?
Marc:What the fuck, publicans?
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:It's called WTF.
Marc:Thank you for enjoying.
Marc:Thank you for joining.
Marc:Thank you for being here.
Marc:I'm getting a lot of emails from people who are...
Marc:watching me on Glow and apparently never knew I existed, which is fine.
Marc:Not complaining.
Marc:It's nice to be discoverable.
Marc:It's nice to know that most people have no idea who I am.
Marc:And I'm being honest.
Marc:I'm very okay with that.
Marc:It is kind of interesting to get emails from people who see me, wonder about me, search my name, and then they have like 800, 900, whatever, however many podcasts we've done.
Marc:They've got my show.
Marc:They've got my five or six comedy records.
Marc:They're going to have the books, the two books.
Marc:I'm happy that they have a rabbit hole.
Marc:I hope it doesn't exhaust them of me.
Marc:Because God knows I'm exhausted by the Marin Rabbit Hole because I'm living in it.
Marc:It's in my head.
Marc:It's always open.
Marc:It's a very easy door.
Marc:There's no lock on it.
Marc:It's kind of blowing open.
Marc:It's kind of creaky and blowing open.
Marc:I'm like, what's going on in there?
Marc:Not again.
Marc:Not again.
Marc:But today on the show, I have the Lucas Brothers, which was pretty great.
Marc:It was a really good time.
Marc:Keith and Kenny Lucas are identical twin brothers that dress pretty much the same, and it's very trippy to talk to them both at the same time for over an hour.
Marc:I mean trippy in the real sense of trippy.
Marc:Like, what the fuck?
Marc:Oh, my God, there's two of you.
Marc:But I didn't know what to expect.
Marc:They've got a new special on, I believe it's on Netflix.
Marc:Yeah, it's called On Drugs, the Lucas brothers, On Drugs.
Marc:And that's a double entendre.
Marc:Is that the right word?
Marc:On as in terms of paper on something.
Marc:And then also on drugs like I'm high.
Marc:But either way, I didn't know what to expect.
Marc:And I had a really good time with these guys.
Marc:So that's going to be happening in a little while.
Marc:Also, speaking about drugs, I am a little squirrely.
Marc:You know, I'm squirrely.
Marc:And this happens every year around this time.
Marc:When you listen to this, if you listen on Monday, it'll be August 7th.
Marc:And on Wednesday, August 9th, I'll acknowledge the day.
Marc:I'll acknowledge the monumental achievement on Wednesday of 18 years sobriety for me.
Marc:18 years sober.
Marc:on wednesday so i don't know anything could happen between now when i'm talking to you and wednesday i'll let you know thursday hopefully thursday will be just another show and not just maybe no show at all like where's mark i don't know man he couldn't hack it he's coming up on that 18th uh sober anniversary and he just he's out in palm desert somewhere he's out in desert hot springs
Marc:With some dude in a trailer.
Marc:I don't know what the fuck they're doing, but it's not good.
Marc:Yeah, I'll bring the mics with me on that one.
Marc:On the meth relapse.
Marc:I'll make sure to have the mics with me.
Marc:I'll interview whoever I'm doing it with.
Marc:Not going to happen, people.
Marc:Relax.
Marc:Making a dark joke.
Marc:But I do notice a difference.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:Some of you who have some sobriety out there know that coming up on those markers...
Marc:You get, I get like, I'm irritable.
Marc:I, you know, I should be going to meetings, but even then, like, I'm sort of like, you know, I've fucked the meetings.
Marc:I don't want to deal with it.
Marc:I mean, you know, I just don't want to, I mean, you know, impatient, I'm edgy.
Marc:I mean, get, you know, I'm having dreams.
Marc:You just get squirrely, man.
Marc:And you don't realize it.
Marc:I don't want to believe it's true, but your brain fucking knows.
Marc:I, I, I, three days ago, I had a dream.
Marc:I mean, I'm a long time sober already.
Marc:Granted, I do my nicotine lozenges and I get jacked up on coffee, especially now that I have a little downtime.
Marc:I'm on my second pot of coffee here and I'm recording this before noon.
Marc:So it's not like I'm not activating the neurotransmitters.
Marc:But these aren't things that are making my life unmanageable.
Marc:And they're acceptable.
Marc:But the booze and drug thing, man.
Marc:So I have a dream.
Marc:I'm in the dream.
Marc:And it's real as hell, man.
Marc:Real as hell.
Marc:This is three days ago.
Marc:Coming up on my 18th sober anniversary.
Marc:And I got a dream.
Marc:I'm just sitting at a bar.
Marc:And I just ordered my second Jack and Coke.
Marc:It was a familiar-looking bar.
Marc:It looked like a bar that I must, in my dream, it felt like I lived there.
Marc:I'm getting my second Jack and Coke, and I'm smoking cigarettes.
Marc:And I'm with Dean Delray for some reason.
Marc:I'm not blaming him for anything.
Marc:I'm sure he didn't cajole me into drinking.
Marc:He's a pretty sober dude himself, very healthy guy.
Marc:But for some reason, it was me and Dean, and I'm just sitting there.
Marc:And the thing I remember from the dream...
Marc:is that feeling in my lungs from smoking cigarettes.
Marc:You know, when you smoke cigarettes and you've been smoking a long time, there's always a little bit of a kind of a wet ache in your lungs.
Marc:And I remember in the dream that I had that wet ache in my lungs from smoking cigarettes and I was about to get that second Jack and Coke.
Marc:And in the dream, I'm thinking, I'm like, man, I'm not sober anymore.
Marc:This is like, I'm drinking right now.
Marc:And am I going to tell anybody?
Marc:How am I going to handle this?
Marc:That's really all I remember.
Marc:The wet ache and wondering whether or not I would cop to drinking.
Marc:And also that first sip of Jack and Coke.
Marc:Whew, man.
Marc:Oh, bless you, go to a meeting.
Marc:Oh, fuck.
Guest:Fuck.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's got a little shivery shivs.
Marc:That wet ache.
Marc:That first sip.
Marc:A little shivery.
Marc:A little shivery.
Marc:So what do I do?
Marc:What do you do for a sober anniversary?
Marc:Well, here in the Los Angeles area, they call them birthdays and you go to a meeting and get a cake and you blow out a bunch of candles and
Marc:Share your gratitude and talk about your story a little bit and get a couple of your old pals to give you your cake.
Marc:And that's that.
Marc:You get a coin right on time.
Marc:Sarah the painter got me a 17-year coin.
Marc:Maybe she'll get me an 18-year coin because I just recently lost a 17-year coin.
Marc:Right on time.
Marc:Right on time.
Marc:Because they just build up the coins.
Marc:And it's funny, when you're going in and out, you know, when you're not quite getting the sober thing, you just start amassing coins.
Marc:They're not a great indication, you know.
Yeah.
Marc:You just got a lot of these attempt coins.
Marc:But, you know, keep going.
Marc:Keep trying.
Marc:But what I usually do inappropriately on my sober birthday is I will email my ex-wife who got me sober.
Marc:I don't speak to her.
Marc:She doesn't like me.
Marc:She doesn't want to hear from me at all.
Marc:But yet I insist on sending an email to an address that I'm sure...
Marc:She gets one email a year from that address, and it's me going, thank you for getting me sober.
Marc:I do that, despite the fact that it probably ruins her fucking day.
Marc:But, you know, I feel it's necessary.
Marc:I will give credit where credit is due, and it wouldn't have happened without her, despite what happened after that.
Marc:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:Life.
Marc:Life.
Marc:So that's what's going on with me.
Marc:Oh, I had this other dream.
Marc:Oh shit, I just remembered the other dream.
Marc:I think it was this house.
Marc:This is not an alcohol-related dream, but it fucked me up.
Marc:I think it was my house, it was this house, and there was a party going on.
Marc:And I don't know, there's a lot of people there, everyone was in costume.
Marc:But I was not in a costume.
Marc:But I was not dressed how I usually dress.
Marc:I was dressed like I used to dress maybe 10 years ago.
Marc:And maybe I was dressed as me 10 years ago.
Marc:But it was clearly a costume party.
Marc:I felt very out of place.
Marc:It was my house.
Marc:And I wasn't in costume.
Marc:And I went out the back door here by the garage.
Marc:And I walked down the hill here.
Marc:And I'm looking down on the hill.
Marc:There's a pond.
Marc:That doesn't exist in real life.
Marc:But it exists in the dream.
Marc:So this kind of muddy pond.
Marc:And I'm just up on the edge.
Marc:And I'm looking at the pond.
Marc:And out of the ground...
Marc:Just above the pond, this giant snake comes out.
Marc:And I'm just watching it come out of the dirt, like a giant, like anaconda size, like one of those massive goat-eating snakes just comes out and just slithers into the water.
Marc:And I remember in the dream, I made a mental note, don't go into pond, snake.
Marc:And then I walked around to this other, and there seemed to be a clearer water there.
Marc:And I saw a seal.
Marc:And what was the other animal?
Marc:Because I knew that they not only was a seal not supposed to be here in the hills of Highland Park in Los Angeles in some freshwater adjunct to a snake infested pond.
Marc:But there was another animal with it that didn't make sense.
Marc:It might not have even been a water animal.
Marc:I remember seeing the other animal being like, that's weird in the water and like, oh, there's a seal.
Marc:And that was all that was all of that one.
Marc:If you have any ideas, I'm open.
Marc:I do like the idea of being at a costume party and being the only one not in costume because that's happened in reality.
Marc:But why is it happening in my head?
Marc:All right.
Marc:So what have I been doing with my downtime?
Marc:Well, yesterday was a big day.
Marc:I went to a box of wires and cords.
Marc:You know, the one I'm talking about box of wires and cords.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:They just build up.
Marc:And I'm in this process of making life lighter.
Marc:So I was like, I got nothing to do.
Marc:The fucking world stinks.
Marc:You know, things are out of control.
Marc:I'm terrified all the time.
Marc:How do I make this manageable?
Marc:Well, there's that box of wires and cords that could use some organizing once you wrangle that fucker into place.
Marc:So you go, you know, these wires, they're just, you don't know what they're for.
Marc:Everything comes with more wires than you need.
Marc:You buy electronic things.
Marc:It's like they come with the wire you need and then a wire that you're like, what does this one even do?
Marc:Who knows how to use this one?
Marc:Should I read something?
Marc:Does it do more than I think?
Marc:Or is it for some other piece of equipment that I don't have?
Marc:What does this wire do?
Marc:Fuck it.
Marc:Put it in the box.
Marc:So eventually you have a box of these useless wires or wires you don't need, and then you got to go through it and make some decisions.
Marc:I don't know what to do with it.
Marc:It's sitting out on the deck now.
Marc:I don't need any of them.
Marc:I haven't looked at those wires in years, and now I've gone through them, and now I'm ready to throw them away.
Marc:But they still got the twisties on them, and some of them are in plastic.
Marc:They're good.
Marc:They're new wires.
Marc:What do you do?
Marc:What am I going to take them to Goodwill?
Marc:It's just, it's not, you can't do that.
Marc:I could go put them on the street and just maybe write on the box, wires, and see, maybe that'll work.
Marc:Or I could throw them away, throw them in the fucking garbage.
Marc:If I haven't used them in years, I'm probably not going to use them.
Marc:All right, look, let's talk to the Lucas Brothers.
Marc:As I said, their new special on Netflix is called Lucas Brothers on Drugs, and I had a great deal of fun talking to these guys.
Marc:It's funny, not unlike my first experience in seeing you two.
Marc:Like I drove up, I didn't think you'd be here, and then you both come out.
Marc:And I think the first time I met you guys, where the hell was that?
Marc:Like in Portland or Chicago?
Marc:It was Austin, Texas.
Marc:At a festival?
Marc:At a first moon tower.
Marc:Right, and I thought I was tripping.
Marc:Like I couldn't quite manage the 20.
Guest:You did seem shocked.
Marc:Not shocked, but it was like perplexed.
Marc:I was overwhelmed.
Marc:There were two of you.
Marc:very well-defined humans, both fashion-wise and appearance-wise, and I'm like, I'm going to have to take this in small doses.
Marc:That's fair.
Marc:It can be overwhelming, man.
Marc:But is that something you deal with your whole life as twins?
Guest:At birth.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:I guess you're kind of weird and special at the same time.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And you just sort of live with it.
Guest:It becomes so...
Guest:It becomes a part of your existence.
Guest:You're referred to as a twin.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You don't even have an identity as an individual.
Guest:Even our mom called us Kenny and Keith.
Guest:She didn't say Kenny or Keith.
Marc:Oh, it's always a dual thing.
Marc:It's always a dual thing.
Marc:You always came in a pair.
Marc:Always.
Marc:Mom didn't pull either of you aside and say, you're the good one.
Guest:She did a good job in treating us as equals.
Guest:I was two minutes older, so I would get the, I'm the older twin, but I'm like, come on.
Guest:That's like the joke, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Do you have other siblings?
Guest:Yeah, we have two younger brothers.
Marc:It's so funny I was about to say normal.
Marc:Yeah, they are.
Marc:They are normal.
Guest:They're younger?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I guess these twin questions don't have anything to do with anything other than curiosity.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Well, I mean, how often do you meet him?
Marc:You know, like out in the world.
Marc:Are you guys part of a club?
Marc:The Twin Club?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Do you have that?
Guest:Deuces, man.
Guest:Well, there is a festival.
Guest:Deuces is much better than Twin Club.
Guest:There's a festival that's dedicated to twins.
Guest:So I guess on some small level.
Marc:We are, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Twinsburg.
Marc:Twinsburg.
Marc:But I mean, that's sort of odd that you have this specific birthright and that it's unique and it's not incredibly common, right?
Marc:But you would think that, you know, what's the opportunity to meet other identical twins?
Marc:I'd love to see a support group of just identical twins dealing with the way they're misunderstood by people.
Guest:We just met a pair of twins, Kaplan twins, they're girls.
Guest:they're our first twins ever met in hollywood yeah like best friends now like we love you guys thank you guys for understanding our plight yeah it's not really a plight it's just it's just an existence that's fairly unique right black twins black male twins are the rarest black male twins so you're like uh yeah you're like you should we should be put in the bible we are like a miracle we should be placed in the new testament
Marc:But I like that you've done that research.
Marc:Oh, of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:I mean, you got to stay abreast.
Marc:How rare?
Marc:What are we talking?
Marc:One in a million?
Guest:More than that.
Guest:More than that.
Guest:I'm saying one and maybe like 10 million.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I think it's one to 10 million.
Marc:I don't know what a twins group would really talk about.
Marc:Just like a bunch of people at the end of the rubs going like, we just like to dress.
Guest:Do we have to split up?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Why do we have to split up?
Guest:Why is it okay for gangs to dress like and not twins?
Guest:all right but honestly why do you dress alike uh look it's part it's part just like because no one else can do it yeah it's almost just like why not you know like why not be eccentric yeah in a way that more eccentric than just being identical twins
Guest:Yeah, and he wears a lot of things that I like to wear.
Guest:So I was like, fuck, I'm not going to change up my wardrobe.
Guest:It's a lot easier, too.
Guest:I can just grab his clothes.
Guest:I don't have to think about my own shit.
Guest:If I was a stylish guy who wore blazers, that's a lot of work.
Marc:Yeah, it's like you don't have to make... Have you had those conversations where you're like, are you wearing that?
Marc:You're going to fuck this whole thing up because there's no way I can wear that.
Guest:Well, he tried to change up his wardrobe.
Guest:He was like, no, I'm going to start wearing toboggan hats.
Guest:And I was like, oh, come on, man.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:I don't want to wear that.
Guest:Not in this heat.
Guest:It's not wintertime, man.
Guest:So you have to have those negotiations.
Guest:We find a middle way on the headgear.
Guest:And when things get really tense, you got to threaten something.
Guest:So I'll threaten to shave off my beard.
Guest:Like if I'm like...
Guest:No, you got to pay extra.
Guest:I'm going to take it off.
Marc:You're going to be all alone.
Marc:I'm taking it off.
Marc:But, like, where did you guys come from?
Guest:We were born in Newark, New Jersey.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's where my roots are from, Elizabeth.
Marc:Oh, okay, Elizabeth.
Marc:Well, I mean, I wasn't born there, but my grandfather was born there.
Marc:I was born in Jersey City.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:Yeah, Jersey City's right there.
Marc:Yeah, it's all right there.
Marc:All those shitty places.
Marc:All those shitty places.
Marc:They're just right together.
Marc:Jersey City, Newark, and Elizabeth.
Marc:But how long did you spend there?
Marc:You got family there still?
Guest:We still have family there.
Guest:We spent a long time in Newark.
Guest:I mean, from one until 18.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We moved around a bunch, and we lived in North Carolina for a bit.
Guest:What part of North Carolina?
Guest:High Point.
Guest:I don't know where that is.
Guest:It's in between Charlotte and Winston-Salem.
Guest:Yeah, Greensboro.
Marc:Yeah, Greensboro.
Marc:But you're Jersey guys, really?
Guest:Yeah, Jersey dudes.
Marc:And so what kind of, was your mom and pop still together?
Guest:They never married.
Marc:Oh, no.
Guest:They were together for like eight seconds, had us, and then that was their relationship.
Guest:So it was a miracle.
Marc:But what about the other siblings?
Guest:They're half brothers.
Guest:Oh, got it.
Guest:So your dad's gone.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, he went to prison when we were six.
Guest:He's still around, but we don't really have much of a relationship.
Guest:No.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:No.
Marc:But your mom did, or how did you know about him at all?
Guest:They took us to go see him in prison when we were like five.
Guest:I was like, I don't want to go, man.
Guest:You know, it is what it is.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I want to just chill home and watch cartoons.
Guest:But yeah, I guess I'll go to prison on Saturday morning.
Guest:What was his reaction when the two of you turned up looking the same?
Guest:I think he was too concerned about prison.
Guest:I don't even think I was thinking about it.
Guest:I don't think he was too concerned about it.
Marc:He didn't have a moment where he was like, holy shit, what are the odds?
Marc:What are the odds that I had two of them?
Marc:Eight seconds.
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:So no relationship there, huh?
Guest:I mean, we tried, but it's hard.
Guest:There's literally something standing in between us and him, which is prison.
Marc:Oh, he's still there?
Guest:He's not there now.
Guest:He got out in 03, 04.
Guest:But by that point, we were... And what about your mom, the new guys?
Guest:Did he act like your dad?
Guest:He was a stepfather in every sense of the word.
Guest:The good senses?
Guest:Bad.
Guest:Horrible.
Guest:He was, like, terrible.
Guest:He wasn't the greatest dude.
Guest:They got divorced.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They got divorced when we were, like, 15.
Marc:Was he shitty to both of you equally?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, that's the thing.
Marc:He treated us equally.
Guest:He treated us equally.
Guest:I'll give him that.
Guest:I'll give him that.
Guest:I'll give him that.
Guest:He was an equal opportunity.
Guest:So if one of you fucked up, it's like, I don't care.
Guest:You're both paying for it.
Guest:Yeah, he did do that.
Guest:He fucked the sport over when I screwed up, so I apologize.
Guest:It's okay, man.
Guest:Look at that.
Guest:Burying hatchets.
Guest:What was that about?
Guest:Some bullshit?
Guest:I was a bit of a wow chow.
Guest:I think I starred for attention, so I would do things like, I don't know.
Guest:I stuck my middle finger up to my teacher once.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:She told me.
Marc:Your first act of comedy.
Marc:My first act of comedy.
Marc:I was like, go fuck yourself.
Guest:Everybody ratted me out.
Guest:But my stepfather didn't like that.
Marc:And then did you guys have to have a conference?
Marc:It's like, look, if you're going to do bad shit, I'm going to take the hit for it.
Guest:So we've got to talk about it before it happens.
Marc:And decide whether or not it's worth the risk.
Guest:You should have given me more pep.
Guest:I should have, man.
Guest:I just trusted your judgment.
Guest:But I guess I shouldn't have.
Marc:So did you guys go into the city a lot?
Guest:Yeah, we Our uncle, our godfather He would take us to the city all the time Because he would do business there And he would just drive there And I remember going over the Just like driving into it Out of the Holland Tunnel And I would see like the buildings And I was seven years old And I was just like, holy shit I'm amazed by this Wasn't that fucking exciting?
Guest:It was the most exciting And you get enamored You're like, what is this?
Guest:And you're just overwhelmed by the
Marc:because newark is a ghetto like it's like it's terrifying it's scary it's like but when you drive into new york it's something totally different everything levels out yeah yeah you know like how could this be a ghetto look at it yeah yeah how do people even fit into this place i remember doing that drive because i was i was a kid too and you know i i was in new jersey from like one to like six years old but my grandparents every the whole family was always there so we i went you know we moved to new mexico and i'd go back every year
Marc:But when you're a kid and whoever drives you in, whether it's the bridge, usually it was the tunnel, right?
Marc:It was the Lincoln Tunnel.
Marc:I went to Lincoln.
Marc:Yeah, we did Harlem.
Marc:So you go through the Lincoln Tunnel, you come out, and it's just sort of like, it's overwhelming and amazing.
Marc:Overwhelming.
Marc:Every part of it.
Marc:You're just looking out the window.
Marc:You're like, where does it end?
Marc:These buildings.
Guest:Yeah, it's just like you see so many people.
Guest:It's fast-paced.
Guest:I mean, the billboards.
Guest:It's just the mystique of New York.
Guest:You instantly gravitate toward it.
Marc:So when did you guys start being funny?
Marc:From day one, were you like... Well, it was crazy.
Guest:You know, for a lot of comedians, humor comes from sort of being alone and being able to observe the world.
Guest:So we started observing the world, and I mean...
Guest:Early.
Marc:Early.
Guest:Because we were really quiet kids, so we would like... Everyone was sort of baffled?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're twins, but are they okay?
Guest:They thought we probably had mental... Yeah, we never talked.
Guest:We barely talked in school, but when we were together... Yeah, we would create these fictional worlds, and it was crazy.
Marc:No one doesn't remember you guys.
Marc:I imagine that no matter whether you talked or not, I imagine at every level of your history, there are people in your classes going like, oh yeah, I remember those guys.
Guest:And that's what people say, oh, those guys never talked.
Marc:I didn't think they would be comedians.
Marc:We wouldn't have guessed it.
Guest:No.
Guest:And we didn't think we would be comedians.
Marc:But what was it?
Marc:Like how...
Marc:So because you guys have this thing, you didn't need to talk really because you always had each other.
Marc:Was that the way it worked?
Marc:Precisely.
Marc:Like you had your own world.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I didn't need to make friends.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you protected each other and you looked the same.
Marc:You probably could get away with things that other people couldn't.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:There's got to be... All right, tell me the one girl story.
Marc:What's that?
Guest:It's not the girl.
Guest:We did trick the government, though.
Guest:We tricked the government.
Guest:We went bigger.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:We don't like to limit our trickery.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We want to do things that go against the system.
Guest:So he took my driver's test for me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:oh really yeah yeah yeah i did not take my road tests i had no confidence that he could pass it and i was tired of hearing him complain about it so i said i'll do it and i did it were you nervous no no the first time i was super nervous but i failed my first time then i passed my second time with flying colors and yeah i'll just take his and then i kept failing and i was like all right let's just let's get this out of the way but do you let him drive now
Guest:He can drive now.
Guest:Yeah, he lets me drive now.
Guest:The first time I drove, though, I got into a car accident, which makes a lot of sense since I didn't know how to fucking drive.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So that was it?
Marc:That was the big scam?
Marc:The big twin scam?
Guest:Yeah, we never tricked girls because, I mean... I think it's a crime.
Guest:It is a crime.
Guest:It is?
Marc:Isn't it?
Marc:Well...
Marc:I would imagine that taking the driver's test on someone.
Guest:Yeah, but that's against the government, though, so fuck them.
Guest:I could spin that and say it was like activism or something like that.
Marc:I was fighting the system.
Guest:Why are you keeping my brother down?
Guest:Why are you keeping my brother down?
Guest:Let him get his license.
Guest:He already took my father away.
Guest:Give me my license.
Marc:Well, it's good that you don't have one of those horrible duping the girl stories.
Guest:I just don't feel right doing it.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't remember what those stories are usually.
Marc:They're usually like that girl thinks she's with one of you and she's with both of you.
Marc:And then we tag out and then we... Right, right.
Guest:But then it's like, what if you don't like the girl?
Guest:Or what if you don't want to date?
Guest:And what if you just want to be a decent human?
Guest:Yeah, what if you want to be a decent human being?
Guest:I trick people all the time.
Guest:I want to be a super villain.
Guest:I want to use my powers for good.
Marc:Well, good.
Marc:Okay, so I get out here.
Marc:Which one's Kenny and Keith?
Marc:Kenny's right here, to the left.
Marc:I guess we both have him.
Marc:When people ask you that, what is the identifying character?
Marc:It's like, I'm the one with the what?
Marc:I'm more depressed.
Guest:You can't see it, but it's there.
Guest:Are you, though?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I would say he's more depressed.
Guest:I mean, I have my stage of depression, but I feel like once you have that, when you plateau and have that breakdown, you sort of build yourself back up.
Guest:I feel like you're still sort of.
Guest:I had my breakdown last year.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So you had different breakdowns?
Marc:Yeah, I had different breakdowns.
Marc:And yours was before?
Marc:My breakdown was when we were in law school.
Marc:You're Keith.
Marc:I'm Keith, yeah.
Marc:Okay, so you had a breakdown.
Marc:Did you finish law school?
Marc:No.
Marc:Were you both in law school?
Guest:We were both in law school.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you figured like this is a, we got a, you know, our law firm is going to be like, think of the commercials.
Marc:Lucas and Lucas.
Marc:You would, like people would come to you just to see you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It'd be a spectacle.
Guest:It'd be a spectacle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We might be shitty lawyers, but they look the same.
Marc:Oh, those commercials would have been great if you were an ambulance chaser.
Guest:We could still do those commercials.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:We can still do this.
Marc:Have you done them?
Marc:We want to.
Guest:That's a good sketch.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:All right.
Guest:So you go to high school in Newark?
Guest:So we went to three different high schools.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, four.
Guest:Four.
Guest:Four different high schools.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Started off in High Point, North Carolina, and then we went to a few in Newark, New Jersey, and then we graduated from one in Irvington, probably the worst high school in Jersey.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:and where'd you where'd you go to college I went to the college in New Jersey it's a small liberal arts like real close to Princeton what were you studying what was the philosophy yeah that's what I was getting at like we get in here I'll get back around to it let's let's move through the the separate depressions yeah and how you took care of each other like where you're like I've been through this shit I know exactly you remember me yeah
Marc:I did this already, man.
Guest:Listen to me.
Guest:You can't understand my pain.
Marc:No, I can't.
Marc:I can't, literally.
Marc:We have the same DNA.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:So you studied philosophy because that's when we walk in here and you're dropping Spinoza.
Marc:Yeah, baby.
Marc:Because I've been obsessed with the guy.
Marc:I got his books over there.
Marc:I can't get through them.
Marc:I always wanted...
Marc:To understand philosophy, but there's a language to it that you've got to learn first.
Marc:And there's a lot of things that got to be laid down about things like phenomenon, being.
Marc:Substance.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I just never got hold of it.
Marc:I don't have the...
Marc:Like I would really have to nerd out and I'm not that nerdy.
Marc:That's fair.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:And like it always bums me out because I always look at those books going like, it's all in there.
Marc:And I can't access it.
Marc:Like Roland Barthes I could get.
Marc:I can get the postmodernists a bit because they're kind of funny.
Marc:Like Brogillard I can get.
Marc:Nietzsche kind of the poems are good.
Marc:But like still there's a... You got it.
Marc:It just seemed like anything that you would fucking pick up.
Marc:Start here, man.
Marc:Start here.
Marc:I think I had that.
Guest:Bertrand Russell, he elucidates the theories, I think, in a very clear fashion.
Guest:But obviously, you want to read through the original text, but...
Guest:But there's no point to read Promenides.
Guest:You can just read.
Marc:Oh, just the name exhausting.
Marc:I didn't even know that guy, but the EDs at the end.
Marc:I can't go back that far.
Marc:Yeah, that's fair.
Marc:I read Plato's Republic.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I read Aristotle, the Ethics, right?
Marc:Is that his?
Guest:Aristotle, the... The Symposium.
Guest:The Symposium.
Guest:The Symposium.
Marc:It's still pretty fresh with you guys.
Marc:You're still carrying around the history of Russell philosophy.
Guest:I consider that the Bible, man.
Marc:Really?
Marc:The Bertrand Russell book.
Marc:Didn't he write one that's a lot more simple?
Marc:Fuck it.
Marc:Hold on.
Marc:I think that was Bertrand.
Marc:Probably is.
Marc:Oh, here it is.
Marc:Right there.
Marc:Is that Bertrand?
Marc:Yeah, it's Bertrand.
Marc:Problems of philosophy.
Marc:This is what I was told as a novice.
Marc:It was like, just get that and we'll get into it, right?
Guest:That's a good one to start with, too.
Marc:Yeah, so I'm like, all right, this will lay it out for me.
Marc:The contents.
Marc:Appearance and reality.
Marc:All right, that sounds good.
Marc:And then right the second chapter, you get into the existence of matter.
Marc:I'm like, do I have time?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's fair.
Guest:That's fair.
Guest:You gotta love fly.
Guest:And I'm sure you love it, but you have to like...
Guest:It just takes patience.
Guest:It takes patience.
Marc:But it's like math, man.
Marc:It's very mathematical.
Marc:Yeah, because I took a philosophy class or logic class in college where I thought, like, this will be good.
Marc:I've done this twice, and I've talked about it a bit.
Marc:I took a logic class, and I was there for, like, not even an hour, 10 minutes.
Marc:I'm like, this is fucking math.
Guest:This is math, right?
Guest:Yeah, they deal with proofs and a lot of geometry influences.
Guest:Since Descartes, geometry has pretty much dominated philosophy.
Guest:Even since Pythagoras.
Marc:Pythagoras too.
Marc:But I did all right in geometry.
Marc:I couldn't handle algebra.
Marc:I couldn't handle chemistry.
Marc:But my senior year of high school, I aced philosophy because there are pictures.
Marc:But logic, I think I was looking for something else.
Marc:And I was like, I thought this was a logic class.
Marc:And that was, symbolic logic is what it is.
Marc:And then I took a philosophy class years later as an adult at the new school when I was smoking a lot of weed.
Marc:I was like, I'm gonna ace it now.
Marc:I took existentialism in college, but I was distracted.
Marc:Like, can't we just get to the answers?
Guest:We're asked to think about philosophy.
Guest:They always conclude with, oh, well, that's not an adequate answer, but we're going to still speculate.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:But you guys dug it.
Guest:I dug it.
Guest:And you still dig it.
Guest:Still dig it.
Guest:Even more now than I did in college.
Guest:I was still holding on to, I don't know, some false beliefs in college, but now I feel like my mind, ever since doing comedy.
Marc:But now I moved more into the poetic elements.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, there's a philosophy, like, you know, Nietzsche's got all the good poetry, and I move more towards art, you know, and poetry.
Marc:It's like, that's where we, like, my girlfriend's a painter, and I'm like, this is how you interpret shit.
Marc:This is what life is.
Marc:You know, what do we got to complicate it with the fucking equations?
Marc:Yeah, that's fair.
Marc:But Spinoza,
Marc:What's his trip?
Marc:Because why were we referencing it coming in?
Guest:So Spinoza, you know, what I like about him is that he tries to ground the spiritual basis of Christianity in science.
Guest:So he's essentially trying to shift religion from...
Guest:They say he was the first secular Jewish person in Europe.
Marc:Yeah, so he's a Jew.
Marc:He's saying, let's unpack this Christian business.
Marc:Yeah, that's fair.
Guest:I didn't think about it on that level.
Guest:I did not think about it on that level.
Guest:Yeah, and he's just like...
Guest:I just think his – based on, like, I looked at the Hubble scope.
Guest:You ever really look at the Hubble scope and you see, like – The telescope?
Guest:Yeah, and you see the universe.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I think his insights sort of predated that, where he's saying that, like, we're all sort of from the same source.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that time is unreal and that – Yeah.
Guest:There is objective truth in the universe.
Guest:We just can't understand it because our minds are limited.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, our perceptions are limited.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:there's only so much we can see.
Guest:And then after looking through that telescope, I'm like, holy crap, there's more out there that we just don't.
Guest:You can probably never comprehend.
Guest:Well, someone can probably comprehend it in the future, but I don't know if we can now.
Marc:Well, let me ask you, just on a practical level, see, when you say that to me, I'm like, yeah, obviously, the space seems vast.
Marc:It is vast.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, but, but, you know, how do you not, I, I, you know, obviously I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm pro science.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But like, you know, I, I'm like, I had to change my tire today and, and, you know, and that took, you know, two days of thinking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So.
Marc:Getting from there to like, what about this universe?
Marc:It's sort of like, I don't know if I have the time for that.
Marc:I'm not sure that it's going to help me right now.
Guest:That's fair.
Guest:I think for me, it's good to know that there's someone thinking about things that I think about, and he provides pretty reasonable arguments.
Guest:Like he says, yeah, the universe is deterministic, materialistic, and we probably don't have free will.
Guest:I think that's true.
Guest:But we do have a mind that can speculate.
Guest:We have a mind that can go...
Guest:It's limitless.
Guest:It's limitless.
Guest:Your mind can think about anything.
Guest:So in that sense, we are free, right?
Guest:We're free to think about the shit that we want to think about.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you're saying that like, okay, so this premise is that the universe is just entropic and deterministic and everything sort of happens outside of us and we have very little control over anything.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But we do have a freedom of mind.
Marc:We have consciousness.
Marc:We have consciousness.
Marc:Consciousness.
Marc:That's another way to put it.
Marc:Is that yours?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Certainly not.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:I'm going to write that down.
Guest:Consciousness.
Guest:Awareness.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Self-awareness.
Guest:But no, the connection to the universe.
Guest:I mean, if the universe is comprised of consciousness and it's through us, then we're connected to something large.
Marc:No, I get that.
Marc:But I guess really what you do then with all this information is just a nice sort of groundwork
Marc:to understand reality from.
Guest:Yeah, precisely.
Marc:We don't have any problem with reality, the idea of reality.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I think that we think that we live in a reality, but we're actually suspended in space, and the only reason that our Earth is the way it is are because of the conditions that are set by the universe.
Marc:Sure, gravity.
Marc:But you got no truck with the fact that I'm holding a cup.
Guest:Yeah, I'm not an extreme skeptic.
Guest:Well, I mean, if you reduce that to a subatomic particle.
Marc:No, I get that.
Guest:But there's something there.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Guest:But it's not what we think it is.
Marc:Yeah, but you can't be engaged on that level every day when you wake up.
Marc:It's like, I want some eggs.
Marc:It's like, what difference does it matter what you eat when you break it down?
Guest:But I think as a human, you just make certain assumptions.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:And then you just move on with your life.
Marc:You have to.
Marc:Yeah, you have to.
Guest:You can't get stuck at the cup or no cup.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Guest:But you can also speculate, and that's the beauty of the human mind.
Marc:Sure, when you want to annoy people.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:With your philosophical wisdom.
Marc:Two of you, two assholes going like, wait, but do we really know?
Marc:It's like, oh, fuck, the Lucas twins are doing it again.
Marc:Just you cornering one idiot who's like, but wait.
Marc:How many times has that happened?
Guest:I try not to be an asshole.
Marc:Well, that's open interpretation, isn't it?
Marc:It really is.
Marc:I'm going to bring in three people that met you in college.
Guest:What does it mean to be an asshole?
Guest:That's the question you must ask yourself.
Guest:Oh, I know what it means.
Marc:I'm very clear.
Marc:When the girl is crying.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:That's fair.
Guest:That's a definitive conclusion.
Guest:Yes, you're right.
Guest:You were probably being an asshole.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So the fact that you still carry the history of Western philosophy, we didn't finish.
Marc:Spinoza found some scientific, you know, what did he glean?
Marc:Why were we talking about him when we came in here?
Marc:I don't think he did much research.
Marc:I think he was more of a thinker.
Marc:He was a pure rationalist.
Guest:A pure rationalist, but I just think that he got it right on some level where he's saying that we're all from the same source.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Africa, right?
Guest:Africa, yeah, we're all from Africa.
Guest:We are all niggas.
Guest:We are all niggas.
Guest:So just suck it up.
Marc:You're all niggas, guys.
Marc:They retitled that book up, didn't they?
Guest:Isn't it called The Ethics?
Guest:Now it's called The Ethics.
Guest:Couldn't use the N word.
Guest:Yeah, they changed it up a bit.
Marc:yeah alright so I get that and he was like he was like banished from every major yeah he got the catholic church isn't that interesting that when you really think about those sort of cataclysms of history and persecution and you know that these thinkers were you know put away and like it's been a very kind of like horribly chaotic and destructive process civilization oh yeah and by then everybody was pretty well civilized I know
Marc:Crazy.
Marc:But it was church-driven, right?
Guest:It was just a church and a state.
Marc:The church had the power of the state, right?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And even now the cataclysms continue.
Marc:They just continue.
Guest:It seems like it gets more powerful, which is strange.
Guest:You would think that with the advances of science and the fact that we have more information...
Guest:Well, science is in its infancy, and then religion's been associated with politics in the state since Constantine.
Marc:Religion has been fighting science since day one.
Marc:Since day one.
Marc:Since one dude was like, oh.
Marc:Well, progress on those levels is less important to people who want to attain and maintain power.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And get shit done and get all the money.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's all it's about.
Marc:Greed and power, man.
Marc:You know, and you'll do whatever it takes.
Marc:I don't understand that.
Marc:I'm so, I'm fortunate in that, you know, I've got a lot of flaws, but greed ain't one of them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, I don't, I don't have that one.
Marc:You know, I don't understand the logic of it forgoing any sort of moral intent.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, or justifying or rationalizing out of greed.
Marc:I just don't have that one.
Marc:Same.
Marc:I got other problems.
Marc:You know, I got drug problems.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:i mean yeah me too i got you know i got the other six seven deadly but at least you don't got greed for some reason greed just strikes me as like not only do you want to acquire power and money but it's something that you have to constantly think about yeah like if you're not happy unless you have obtained this thing and even when you obtain all the material in the world you're still not happy yeah you know and that's what strikes me as like
Guest:I just don't.
Guest:Greed is such a mental thing.
Marc:Look in the index of the history of Western philosophy under happiness.
Marc:See what's listed.
Marc:How many pages in there?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Happiness, they probably have.
Marc:Give it a try.
Marc:Maybe it's not for happiness.
Guest:Maybe it's just power.
Guest:You just want to dominate other people.
Marc:But the question of happiness, as comics, as philosophers, and as an idea, is it in there?
Yeah.
Guest:That's definitely in here.
Guest:I bet.
Guest:That's all they talk about.
Guest:There it is.
Guest:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17.
Marc:Can you sum up some of the philosophical arc around happiness?
Guest:I think the big thing for philosophers is that to be happy, you have to live a virtuous life committed to reason.
Guest:To the study of philosophy.
Marc:And that's all philosophy.
Marc:That's metaphysics.
Marc:Metaphysics.
Marc:Epistemology.
Guest:Epistemology.
Guest:Logic.
Guest:Aesthetics.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Aesthetics.
Guest:All of it.
Guest:You have to be committed to understanding.
Marc:Living clean.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Living clean.
Marc:Balancing shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Making room for new shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But arguing about it.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Debating.
Guest:Discussing.
Guest:Criticizing everything.
Guest:So.
Guest:Being annoying.
Guest:Being an asshole.
Marc:Well, it's good that you guys didn't talk to other people much.
Yeah.
Marc:So you just have these conversations with each other?
Marc:Did it ever come down to like, you know, I'm going to hit you if you don't shut up because you're wrong about this metaphysical situation?
Guest:We've gotten to some very intense discussions regarding metaphysics.
Guest:Yeah, it's crazy.
Guest:It gets really, really heated.
Guest:Because I'm more of a rationalist and he's more of an empiricist.
Guest:I would say so.
Guest:He likes to say that I'm an extreme skeptic, which I'm not.
Guest:I think I'm more... I'm a little bit more cautious.
Guest:I mean, I'm a little bit more...
Guest:More skeptical.
Guest:You're skeptical, but not an extreme skeptic.
Guest:Yeah, I like to make bold assertions.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:Like free will doesn't exist.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Or that time is unreal.
Guest:And I would argue that there's not enough information to conclude that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:And that's an execution of his free will.
Marc:He's just shutting you the fuck down.
Marc:That's fair.
Marc:I think you're wrong.
Marc:That's fair.
Marc:What are you going to do now?
Marc:So I guess that proves it.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Shit.
Marc:If I was going to punch you, I would have done it already.
Marc:So you guys are, so this all gets, you get turned on to this shit in college.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then you're like, I guess there was a twin conversation of like, well, what do we do with all this bullshit?
Marc:And you thought law.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because you wanted to be this philosophically virtuous dudes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who were gonna, you know,
Guest:help i wish that was the the mode of thinking it was more i was poor so it was greed it was it was driven by i wanted to make money law was the law what seemed to be the the only path we did a like a internship at fellowship at princeton with professors and
Guest:We saw what the life would be like for PhD candidates, and we talked to somebody.
Guest:In philosophy?
Guest:Yeah, and it sounded brutal.
Guest:It was hard to get a job.
Guest:I was like, but you guys go to Princeton.
Guest:You should be able to get a job outside of... And they were like, no, it's difficult.
Marc:No one's looking for philosopher PhDs that focused on Kant.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So maybe constant metaphysics.
Guest:We need a doctor in here.
Guest:Can someone help us?
Guest:Yes, I am a doctor in philosophy.
Guest:You can't help, motherfucker.
Guest:This guy's bleeding.
Marc:You're going to think away the problem.
Marc:Well, is it a problem?
Guest:Is it?
Guest:Spinoza would say it's not.
Marc:So the compulsion towards the law had nothing to do with justice.
Marc:No.
Marc:No, no, no, no.
Guest:I don't even know what justice is.
Guest:Less disappointed.
Guest:I'm disappointed in myself.
Guest:It is what it is.
Guest:What is justice?
Guest:What is it?
Guest:What is it?
Guest:Beats me.
Guest:I mean, maybe some version of equality, but then you're like, what is equality?
Guest:I think it's equal treatment.
Guest:Fair treatment under the law.
Marc:That's a specific type of justice.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:Plato said justice is just allowing the greatest minds to rule the state.
Marc:Yeah, philosopher king.
Marc:Yeah, that doesn't pan out.
Marc:Generally, they're either relatively ineffectual or horrendously tyrannical.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Because, you know...
Marc:Yeah, the problem, the wiggle room on the best minds is like, it's the new idea guys that are a real problem.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Big problem.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:They are psychotic.
Guest:And they justify everything.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:I'm the smartest man in the world, and this is the way it's going to work.
Marc:Oh, you don't like that?
Marc:Put him in the hole.
Mm-hmm.
Guest:The dudes with the bold ideas.
Marc:Look at Mussolini.
Marc:Bold ideas in uniforms.
Marc:Nine times out of 10, not a good guy.
Guest:10 to lead to Terry.
Guest:Hundreds of thousands of people will probably die.
Marc:It's been going on since the beginning.
Marc:Since the beginning.
Marc:Unbelievable.
Marc:So you go to law school and how do you crap out there?
Marc:Man, you still- I think you guys would have been great teachers.
Marc:Everybody would have wanted to get high and go to the Lucas Brothers philosophy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:We still might do it.
Guest:Since I've rekindled my love for philosophy.
Guest:But yeah, law just was the antithesis of- How old are you guys?
Guest:31.
Marc:Oh, so you still got that thing like, we could still teach.
Marc:If this doesn't- Yeah.
Guest:We blew ourselves into believing that.
Guest:That'll go away.
Marc:If it doesn't work.
Marc:I know, I know, I know, I know.
Marc:Because eventually you get to a point, it's like, what credentials do we have to teach anything?
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:It's philosophy.
Guest:Yeah, it's philosophy.
Guest:Socrates didn't get a PhD.
Guest:He just sort of used some nonsense.
Marc:Sure, yeah.
Marc:So you want to be street teachers?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You want to be like those guys?
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:What are the weird twins doing over there?
Marc:They're talking about some shit.
Yeah.
Marc:And then people are hanging out.
Guest:If Manson was able to, you know, get a following, I think we can figure it out.
Guest:Yeah, that didn't go well either.
Guest:It went well for a bit.
Marc:Very, very short period of time.
Marc:Didn't seem to have the right answer.
Marc:The agenda was like a little dubious.
Guest:Well, I mean, he was talking about the black-white race war.
Guest:And I think, you know, we're inching closer.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:He wanted to start it.
Guest:He wanted to start it.
Guest:But his problem was it was already happening.
Guest:The race war has been around since...
Guest:Since we got here.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:It's been a perpetual war.
Marc:Right.
Marc:He was just trying to modernize it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:By some very small, violent endeavors.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:A lofty thinker, that guy.
Marc:Man, geez.
Marc:So you got to law school and you just were like, fuck it?
Guest:No, my first year, because I went to NYU, and I was literally right around the corner from the comedy cellar.
Marc:Where was he?
Marc:He was at Duke.
Guest:You guys split up?
Guest:We split up for two and a half years.
Marc:Holy shit.
Guest:How'd that go?
Guest:Brutal.
Marc:It was weird, man.
Guest:That was the first time I was treated as an individual.
Guest:yeah and it was a little shocking for me because i couldn't handle it i just yeah i don't like being known as keith like i'm not cute who is keith who's this keith guy you're talking about i had to flesh him out now like oh fuck this is way too much work for me as a twin where's kenny where's kenny where's the person that's always by my side and what is that when you went into your depression yeah
Guest:It is.
Guest:Yeah, it was when I wasn't really feeling law.
Guest:I didn't like the job.
Guest:I didn't like... But you both went to different law schools.
Guest:That was the deal.
Guest:And they were good ones.
Guest:Good ones, but when you don't have your brother there, I feel like that, at least for me, it impacted how I treated the career.
Guest:uh-huh it felt like we were slowly slowly just breaking apart yeah gradually you felt that too same yeah and i was in a relationship at the time and i i could only think about my brother and i i remember like when we would attack philosophy yeah we would do it together right have like discussions and so much hours yeah just talking about things making me sad i'm glad that i can see that it ended up in a happy ending yeah but like right now in the story i'm like oh what happened
Guest:Yeah, so you do get that separation.
Marc:So you were with a woman?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you were alone.
Guest:I was a free, free willer, free, just free.
Marc:And were you kind of kicking around campus alone going like, he doesn't like me anymore.
Marc:He's got that chick.
Guest:I started to just like lose myself into other things like
Guest:booze and oh really yeah yeah trying to find some sort of replacement to i developed a drug habit while in law school you did yeah same same oh really smoking a lot of marijuana and just trying to get my mind off of the idea of like traveling this universe you're mostly alone yeah so like i got so used to the philosophy the philosophy the philosophy fucked you
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:You understood it intellectually, but in a physical universe, you're like, but I'm not alone.
Marc:I got a guy who looks exactly like me.
Marc:Always by my side.
Marc:And we need to pull this shit together, because that's the only way we can fight the existential harm.
Marc:Horror.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:And like the dread, like you have all these thoughts in your head and they just stay there when you're by yourself.
Guest:When I had my brother there, I could always- Tell me about it.
Guest:I can always just talk to him.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Get it out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I sort of, it was unfair.
Guest:I treated him as my therapist.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When in reality- But I did the same thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was a mutual-
Marc:But is it really that or I imagine that there has to be some strange symbiotic ability that you guys have over other people in terms of emotional understanding to each other.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Like, you know, I like I know.
Marc:Oh, I know the Scar brothers.
Marc:I think they're identical.
Marc:They are.
Marc:When I first started watching the Square Brothers, I'm like, they're doing the act of one guy.
Marc:Like, there was no definitive, like, you know, oh, he's the setup guy.
Marc:He's the straight man.
Marc:It was just sort of like finishing sentences and finishing thoughts.
Marc:And it was very, you know, organic and kind of odd.
Marc:But it was really like two guys doing one guy's act.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think the argument that we can make is that we are kind of one guy.
Guest:We're just sort of splitting the fucking womb.
Guest:So now we're getting into medicine and philosophy.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:I think we are technically one guy.
Guest:I think it's because we have such a shared experience.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I think you want to get to the point where you can specify the two and see who...
Guest:Infuse some of your pain into it that's distinct from his.
Guest:I have distinct pain.
Guest:I have a different set of issues that I have to deal with.
Guest:Do you?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:I think we worry about different things.
Guest:I think our depression comes from the same source, but how we deal with it.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:So you're fucking drinking.
Marc:You're getting fucked up down in North Carolina.
Marc:He's in New York City, which he's already got the edge on.
Marc:He's in the world.
Marc:He's in a better place.
Marc:I'm not saying it's nice down there.
Marc:Durham's beautiful.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:I was just there.
Marc:It's a great town.
Guest:Again, it's that loneliness.
Guest:You're constantly in your mind.
Guest:You're starting to chase these things that you think will bring you happiness.
Guest:And when they don't, you sort of...
Guest:I don't know, you have a bit of an accidental breakdown.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I think that's it.
Marc:The thing about being in your head, if there are two of you, at least you can just jump into his head.
Marc:You can jump back and forth.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:Yeah, that's absolutely right.
Marc:And it's been there since the womb.
Marc:Since they were doing that.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:So what facilitated the reunion?
Guest:Well, I thought about suicide.
Guest:I was thinking suicide.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:What the hell would he do?
Guest:I know.
Guest:that's the reason i didn't do it like fuck it come on man i was like i can't leave my brother on this earth by himself so i said no but i i still you know what was it self-pity an intellectual exercise or when you look back on it do you feel like you were really there no it was it was it was more self-pity yeah more i wasn't i don't think i was there there yeah yeah i think i was just going through a moment yeah yeah i didn't know how to handle it right so it was one of those one of those things so did he come down and save you
Guest:I was actually in New York, but he did save me.
Guest:And he was there for me for what?
Guest:I was in... I don't know.
Guest:You were always there for me.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And at that point, I think he started to think, all right, maybe this law shit isn't the path for us.
Guest:Maybe law... Not just law, but maybe the circumstances of us not being together is having an effect on both of us.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was examining the consequences and saying to myself that...
Guest:If being separate and doing something that we don't like leads us here, then maybe we should do something together that we do like.
Guest:That was the simple logic.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And so comedy, I would go to a comedy show all the time.
Guest:It was right there, and I would just go watch.
Guest:And I was like, I don't think we can – I don't think we would be great at this, but it could be – it's fun.
Guest:We got a hook.
Guest:We got a hook.
Guest:We got an angle.
Guest:Yeah, and we love comedy, so perhaps there's something there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So where'd you start?
Guest:New York?
Guest:Started in New York.
Marc:Well, Jersey.
Guest:Jersey.
Marc:You dropped out of school?
Guest:So he called me up.
Guest:He was like, do you want to drop out?
Guest:And I was like, absolutely.
Guest:And so I dropped out, and I moved to Jersey.
Guest:He was living with his girlfriend at the time.
Guest:And we were going through a breakup because I told her I didn't want to be a lawyer.
Guest:I wanted to be a stand-up comedian.
Guest:And she was like, well, that's not realistic.
Marc:And I was like, you're right.
Marc:It's not.
Marc:You should probably leave.
Marc:But good for you.
Marc:My brother's moving back.
Marc:I got my brother back.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:He's cooler anyway.
Guest:We can play video games and smoke weed.
Guest:Can't do that with you.
Guest:You have babies over there.
Guest:What did your mom think of this decision?
Guest:Our mom has always been super supportive of anything that we've done.
Guest:She was just happy that we got out of high school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So when we said, well, we were going to do comedy for the sake of doing comedy, she was like, yeah, why not?
Marc:And she supported us.
Marc:And she's probably happy you guys were together.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She just wants us to be happy.
Guest:So anything that makes us happy, she's completely on board.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Did you tell her it was living a virtuous life?
Guest:No, she's like, make some money.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Virtue ain't going to pay the bills.
Guest:Virtue does not pay the rent.
Marc:I wish it did, though.
Marc:That would be awesome.
Marc:So you guys started in Jersey?
Marc:Jersey, yeah.
Marc:What were the first bits like?
Marc:What was the angle?
Marc:Man, I mean... Well, were you doing more sketch, did you think?
Marc:Or was it right from the beginning you had a dynamic?
Guest:Well, Kenny started before me, so he sort of had...
Guest:I took some comedy classes in New York.
Guest:Did you learn things in those?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I think I learned a lot of good things.
Guest:I think the one thing that stuck with me always was never hold the mic cord.
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:Keep the mic up.
Guest:Deliver your punchlines confidently.
Guest:I know that they seem basic.
Guest:Hold the mic cord.
Guest:Don't like, don't, because there were comedians who would get up and they'd be nervous and then they'd start like, playing with the cord and like looking around or playing with the, you do have to make some decision at some point.
Marc:It's like, is it going to stay in the stand or am I going to take that fucking thing out and deal with that business?
Guest:I like to do, I don't know.
Guest:I like to play around with both of them.
Marc:yeah me too you know it becomes obviously becomes habit of some kind of course you're at some point you're not hung up on you know what's gonna happen with the microphone yeah yeah yeah you know i i still go off mic sometimes but i like to do it but yeah the only thing i have a problem with the tripod stands like that one back there if i see one of those on stage i'm like that's no that's not happening yeah i hate it it's gonna fuck you i don't like those it's gonna fuck you you're gonna i hate when like it's attached to the piano and you gotta like
Marc:Oh, that?
Marc:I won't do cordless.
Marc:Oh, you don't?
Marc:No, can't do it.
Marc:No?
Marc:Yeah, but it's a philosophical thing.
Marc:I'm like, I don't believe in this magic.
Guest:Yeah, that's fair.
Marc:Yeah, it's just weird.
Marc:They don't fit in the stand right.
Marc:They're always bulky.
Marc:They have an ace to get.
Marc:Always bulky.
Marc:Yeah, but those stands will always fuck you.
Marc:You're going to be wrestling with one of those things during your act, if that's it.
Marc:And usually it's at music venues, and I'm like, nope.
Marc:What do they call it?
Marc:A 58 on a stick.
Marc:Yep, that's all I need.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:With a wire.
Marc:I need to know that I'm connected to something.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:But did you learn anything about structure?
Marc:I think the biggest benefit of those classes is that usually you get to go on stage at the end.
Marc:Yeah, that one showcase.
Marc:The big payoff is like, we're going to do a night at Stand Up New York.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it helps.
Guest:You did it too?
Guest:When I came to Jersey, we took a class.
Guest:We took Joe Matarese's class at the Stress Factor.
Guest:Joe was teaching one too?
Guest:Joe was teaching one.
Guest:Holy shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Joe's a good guy.
Guest:I love Joe.
Marc:I like Joe, man.
Marc:What'd you learn from Joe?
Marc:To be intense?
Guest:He was actually the one who said, just be you.
Guest:Be yourself.
Guest:Have fun.
Guest:Just whatever you feel is right.
Marc:I love that guy.
Marc:I think he's a sweet guy.
Marc:He's so great.
Guest:Yeah, he also said...
Guest:go personal like be personal yeah yeah talk about the issues that are affecting you yeah when we first started it was all just this observational stuff which we still kind of do but yeah we we realized at some point we had to get personal because you want to tell your story right like you i think yeah because like i imagine at some point there's an audience going like what the fuck yeah how do you guys live yeah there is a strange you sit there in the morning and go like do you want to wear these today
Marc:Or can I wear them?
Guest:That happens.
Guest:It does happen.
Guest:It does.
Guest:It really does.
Guest:And we think it's normal, but it's not.
Guest:It is normal for you.
Guest:It is normal for us.
Guest:It's a very symbiotic relationship.
Guest:I see him and I say, oh, this is what you should do or this is what you ought to do.
Guest:It's like a back and forth.
Guest:But you have this moment like we can't wear the exact same thing.
Guest:You know, when we first started, we thought we had to be a little different.
Guest:But as we're getting into it, we're like, fuck it, man.
Guest:What language do we use?
Guest:Let's maximize the gimmick.
Guest:Let's take it to its logical conclusion.
Guest:Let's take the gimmick to its logical conclusion.
Guest:Let's see how far it can go.
Guest:Because why not?
Guest:Because why not?
Guest:That's the intriguing thing, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I think what's intriguing, but also you guys are thoughtful guys.
Marc:That becomes like I imagine that becomes the bigger challenge is that once you realize, like, you know, we maximize the gimmick.
Marc:But, you know, what we really have to offer is our point of view, either together or separate.
Marc:You know, we're thoughtful, intelligent people that write thoughtful, intelligent stuff.
Marc:So, you know, that has to transcend the gimmick.
Marc:That has to be the surprise.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:I agree.
Guest:I totally agree.
Guest:I mean, I feel like if you can put some substance behind the gimmick, it'll have more of an impact.
Guest:Or at least it'll satisfy.
Guest:Because Hollywood wants us to be like stoners.
Guest:The happy stoner.
Marc:But you're going to be up against that.
Marc:If you're going to be doing this together and you're going to be working this angle, you're going to be a punchline until you're not.
Marc:If you can transcend that, who knows?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's a challenge, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I mean, obviously we can transcend it in your own work, but in terms of casting and that kind of stuff, it's got to be like, maybe when the thing on fire falls out the building, the two black guys, the twins, should be like, what happened?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:that's it that's no nuance the hollywood nuance right there i mean you know that's the thing like that's why i'm glad we have stand-up because stand-up gives you that freedom gives you that freedom to be you yeah uh whereas hollywood you know they're gonna put you in a box
Marc:But yeah, so you started in Jersey?
Marc:You were at Vinny's Club?
Marc:Where were you?
Marc:We were at the Stress Factory.
Guest:We did a lot of those small alternative rooms.
Guest:It's not many in Jersey, but we realized quickly that- Oh, they were already there when you started.
Marc:The alternative was a thing, yeah.
Guest:They were already, yeah.
Guest:Bar shows.
Marc:Bar shows.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It was always people who were just taking some time off from a job to do it part-time.
Guest:You could tell they weren't doing it.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:not all of them but they weren't lifers yeah there were some lifers there but they were always like we gotta make the move in New York those old jersey guys are sort of like I'll do the new thing they come down and then we but did you like Roger Paul rooms and shit were those around yet the one nighters and stuff no maybe that was done we were doing uh did you ever do rascals was that gone
Marc:No, I think it's still there.
Marc:I just don't think we ever did it.
Marc:Tony Camacho rooms.
Marc:We were doing a lot of open mics.
Marc:Yeah, you guys came a different generation than me.
Marc:But you did Vinny's room.
Guest:We did Stretch Factory once.
Marc:Once.
Marc:During that time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we did some of the open mics there, but we weren't really performing at big shows.
Guest:When did you have an act?
Guest:How long did it take?
Guest:Maybe three days ago.
Guest:I think it might be there.
Guest:We still got some time.
Guest:No, I mean, we sort of had a connection on stage, but we didn't have any substantive jokes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, maybe once we moved to Brooklyn.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's when we started to realize, okay, this is how you do stuff.
Marc:Well, because there's a community there.
Marc:Then the competition sets in.
Marc:Yeah, you see people like Mark Norman.
Marc:We got to get some game.
Marc:Who?
Marc:Like who?
Guest:We saw Norman and Michael Che.
Guest:Michael Che and Kevin Barnett.
Guest:Barnett and Lawrence.
Guest:All these guys were there at the same time.
Guest:Mike Lawrence.
Guest:They were all there at the same time.
Guest:We went to this open mic called The Woodshed at Legion Bar.
Guest:It was 50 to 60 comics.
Guest:And it was like those guys.
Guest:And they were just, in two minutes, just...
Guest:Some of the best jokes I've ever heard.
Marc:I'm like, holy shit.
Guest:Mike Lawrence is kind of a joke wizard.
Marc:I mean, he's a wizard master.
Guest:I mean, he's a maestro.
Guest:And Norman's a maestro.
Marc:Who's Norm?
Guest:Mark Norman?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's another guy who's just like, just spitting out jokes.
Guest:And you're like, holy shit.
Guest:This is real comedy.
Guest:This is actual comedy.
Guest:So you study those guys.
Guest:The Attell school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:or hannibal like all these guys like lucy k had it like and you i mean you guys yeah you guys set the set the stage but it's weird like you watch like i you know i worked with mike and like i remember because he was represented by the woman who represented me and he would the first time he opened for me uh you know and you meet him and it's sort of like where's this gonna go how's this gonna how's this gonna work yeah and the way he owns who he is on stage is fucking it's a
Marc:brilliant it is you're just like to see that guy go in front of a room of people who you know are immediately judging him completely like what the fuck is how did why is this guy out of his mom's house his mom's basement yeah and then he just fucking unloads i mean he's fearless and he's so good every punch on every three seconds oh yeah he can just ring them off i've never seen it that's your telephone
Marc:You know, that like, you know, different, different than Louie, you know, because Louie's sort of abstract.
Marc:But like, I always come back to Attell.
Marc:I was talking about him the other night.
Marc:Who's that?
Marc:Ryan Singer was out opening for him.
Marc:But like to watch Attell, you know, more than anybody else, you just and I'm not that kind of joke writer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sort of like, why should I even do this?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You marvel at it.
Marc:You're like, holy shit.
Marc:It's unbelievable.
Marc:It's unreal.
Marc:Mike's like that too.
Guest:I mean, it's incredible.
Marc:So you guys, you got the fire under.
Marc:You're like, well, we can't fucking fake through it anymore.
Marc:Yeah, we can't just be this twin gimmick anymore.
Marc:The maximizing the gimmick thing just got diminished.
Marc:How about we write some jokes?
Guest:Learn how to write jokes.
Guest:And Brooklyn is the place to be in terms of joke writing.
Guest:It was just expert joke writing.
Marc:And it's a good community.
Marc:Great community.
Marc:Great community.
Marc:Yeah, there's a whole, the whole generation you guys come from, you know, we were all kind of, I don't know, my generation, you never felt, well, we were all comics, but you know, and there was a community, but you guys all seem to, you know, kind of genuinely like each other.
Marc:I guess we
Marc:I did too.
Marc:Maybe I shouldn't diminish it.
Marc:It just felt more competitive when I was doing it because the club system was in place.
Marc:So you really were, you were all trying to get the same thing and it was limited.
Guest:Less opportunity, right?
Marc:I think so.
Guest:Especially with like, even in Hollywood, you know, it's just network TV.
Marc:Yeah, like if you're gonna do comedy clubs, if you're gonna make money as a comic at that time, you had to do the clubs.
Marc:You couldn't just sort of like, well, Hannibal's got that thing on Monday night.
Marc:Does it pay?
Marc:No, it doesn't matter.
Marc:It's like,
Marc:We were kind of like, if you're doing, you didn't do, the free spots were supposed to stop after your open mic day.
Marc:I see.
Marc:Even if it was 25 bucks.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The idea was like, we got to get these spots where you get the money and work the club.
Marc:We got to figure out how to work a club and work for any audience, not just like-minded people.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And I'm not being condescending.
Marc:I mean, I was there at the beginning of whatever alt comedy was called.
Marc:But for me, it was just sort of like, you mean I can just come here and I don't have to do jokes?
Marc:I can blow off steam?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:and think out loud that sounds good yeah you can't do that at a club no you gotta you gotta give him some jokes yeah yeah um and i think that that's good yeah but i also think there's a there's something great about also not thinking about the joke and arriving at it more in a spiritual way but i i spiritual way that's interesting how do you mean
Guest:We're not machines.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:No, I'm not either.
Marc:I know, I know.
Marc:But I'm curious if you, being that we're talking philosophy, what is the spiritual component?
Guest:Okay, so I think you can come up with jokes in two ways.
Guest:You can do it in a way that's eye priority, and that's just sitting there writing it and figuring out the formal structure.
Guest:That's not my way.
Guest:Normally not my way either.
Guest:I think a better way, not a better way, but the way that I've just grown accustomed to is living and then arriving at the punchline organically.
Guest:If you're telling a bit about- Riff it out.
Guest:Riff it out, a story.
Guest:Or dialectical talk it out.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:A more experimental way of arriving.
Marc:Well, yeah, because then for me, and it took me a long time to realize this, is that once you, for whatever reason, whether you believe it or not, you're a funny person, right?
Marc:So like you can write those jokes and you go up and like, I'm going to try this joke and you do the math of it.
Marc:That's like, that's symbolic logic.
Marc:That is exactly what it is, right?
Marc:So it's like, okay, there's the three, there's the five, there's the beat.
Marc:If I take that word out, boom, it's a math equation.
Marc:And then you go up and it's like, well, maybe I got it.
Marc:That didn't quite work the way I wanted it to.
Guest:Maybe if I get it.
Marc:Yeah, and I'm doing that a little more recently just because I want to give myself a break from the existential spiritual struggle.
Marc:But most of my jokes are written where I got an idea, I go up there, I start talking about the idea, and because of the pressure, the one thing I know is I gotta be funny.
Marc:So I corner myself, and then you just wait for the muse.
Marc:Is it gonna come?
Marc:And you think, you do the thought, and then you just out of necessity,
Marc:funny thing happens and isn't that beautiful it's the best it's beautiful because you don't know where it came from no like you have these jokes you do for a year and it's like it's beautiful and then and then something else will just add on to it yeah where'd that come from yeah i didn't did you write that i'm like no it came yeah i love that part that's the beauty of the human mind i think i love it yeah yeah oh to you yeah just like you're in your yeah the beauty of the human mind is being terrified and
Guest:And out of necessity, you have to... But it's like you're almost working with the crowd too.
Guest:You're working with the audience to come up with this sort of idea.
Marc:And there were moments that happened on stage where I'm like, that was the best thing that's gonna happen tonight and it's never gonna happen again.
Guest:I know.
Guest:That's the best thing.
Marc:When you do something, it's like, oh, it's great.
Marc:I'm never going to do it again.
Marc:I don't even know how it happened.
Marc:But I know enough to know it's not repeatable.
Guest:It's not repeatable.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But every show is different.
Guest:Every audience is different.
Guest:I mean, you never really perform in front of the same group of people.
Guest:You've never done it.
Marc:No.
Marc:Unless you're doing those bringer shows.
Marc:Another one.
Marc:Please, not again.
Marc:Are they still doing the same shit?
Marc:Like, when am I on?
Marc:You just look in the room and you're like, oh, fuck, how long has you been up there?
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:Yeah, I know that feeling.
Marc:I was watching, last night I went to the comedy store and I had not stayed late in a long time.
Marc:And I used to work the door there.
Marc:And there's just that shift.
Marc:I like going on early so it's a nice, fresh audience.
Marc:No one's too fucked up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:but like you know i stayed like till midnight and there's like this shift where you got a full room and then at some point you know just collectively for no reason like half the audience is like we're done oh fuck it and they just and they're bringing up a dude yeah and then half the audience is it was eric griffin and i like i just saw like 40 people they get up and they're walking as he's coming to the stage and i'm like uh this is where it really happened yeah
Marc:Now he's got to go fucking pull this shit together.
Marc:And it was kind of wild because that's the comic experience.
Marc:As a comic, how many times you've seen that?
Marc:Just a dude or a woman or two dudes just sort of working nine people.
Guest:That's what they've got.
Guest:I mean, you've got to work with what you've got.
Guest:It's great.
Marc:It's great.
Guest:Great.
Guest:Comedy prepares you for life, though, you know what I mean?
Guest:I think it's always the same.
Guest:It's like you got the audience, you got the mic, it doesn't matter if it's nine people or 50,000.
Marc:Yeah, but as you get older, you have these amazing things with nine people or with four people, but when you really think about it, if the stage wasn't there and the mic wasn't there, it's just you talking to four people.
Yeah.
Marc:People that you don't know.
Marc:Random strangers.
Marc:But things can happen in those shows.
Marc:They're like, that was the greatest show ever.
Marc:It's like, was it a show?
Guest:What's a show?
Guest:Now we're going back to a philosophy.
Guest:Now it's a philosophy.
Guest:What are the necessary and sufficient conditions?
Marc:But it is, and you remember them.
Marc:Nine people is always the number.
Guest:Yeah, it's always nine.
Guest:Ten's too many.
Marc:There's an odd one out there.
Marc:That one guy was by himself, and he was there all night.
Marc:Oh, fuck.
Marc:You know, it's like weird.
Marc:You go to the comedy store, and I'm wandering around, and I go right back, and I'm just shy of working the door.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because the muscles are like, you want me to see these guys?
Marc:But then you start looking at people, and I had this moment.
Marc:Because, you know, we live in the world we live in.
Marc:And, you know, it's like insanity over there.
Marc:And it's just this weird.
Marc:It's always been this vortex of loose people.
Marc:For sure.
Marc:And, like, there's just some guy sitting on a wall talking to himself.
Marc:And, you know, I walk by him twice.
Marc:And I'm like, ugh, what's going to happen?
Marc:What is that?
Marc:And I walk up to one of the door guys.
Marc:I'm like, who's the guy around the corner sitting on the wall talking to himself?
Marc:And I knew in my mind that he was going to walk over there and come back and go, yeah, it's a comic.
Yeah.
Marc:It's like, damn.
Marc:It was.
Guest:It was.
Guest:It was.
Marc:Okay, so as long as he's not preparing for something other than maybe a set.
Guest:But you never truly know, man.
Marc:You don't know.
Marc:Comedians are a very bunch.
Marc:We're a strange bunch.
Marc:All right, so when did you get depressed?
Guest:I got depressed last year.
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:You kind of waited.
Guest:I waited.
Guest:I waited.
Guest:I was too concerned about his depression.
Guest:I put mine aside.
Guest:I was like, I got to focus.
Marc:But you must have had a lot more sort of like, you must have had a bigger philosophical defense of your depression.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:I built up the years.
Guest:Yeah, no, I think it was just like coming from Brooklyn and moving to Hollywood.
Guest:Yeah, it was such a jarring thing for me because Hollywood is just a different place.
Guest:It's a different animal.
Marc:It's like it's there's nothing really like it.
Marc:And, you know, unlike anything.
Guest:and yeah there's no real like you know there's no center to it yeah that's the thing it's like there's no cultural center to it it's right it's just it's so infused with hollywood and i i love california i don't love the business but i love holly i love the idea of hollywood yeah yeah yeah i guess so i mean just like maybe i do too no i i mean i'm trying to figure out a better way to say this i love i mean we watch so much stuff yeah you have to be enamored by it yeah with the
Marc:I think it was different when it was a little more intimate, like there was less options.
Marc:Now it's sort of so broke open where people are like, I do a joke about it on stage where I say, it's gotten to the point, I don't know if I'm over, someone can ask me if I've seen a show.
Marc:Not only have I not heard of the show, but when they tell me where it's on, I don't know what that is.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:That's true.
Guest:We had a show on True TV.
Guest:What's True TV?
Marc:How do I get that?
Guest:What the fuck is that?
Guest:That's true.
Guest:It's so splintered now.
Marc:But there is the idea that if you do your creative work and you keep your shit together, that you can surface.
Marc:Precisely.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's still a thing, I think.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And you go to meetings at big buildings and offices with people, and you talk to them about yourself, and you pitch things, and you walk out going like, that guy's in charge of our future.
Right.
Marc:Those three people are going to make the decision.
Guest:Yeah, that's it.
Guest:It's so weird.
Guest:But I'm the comedic genius.
Guest:What do they know?
Guest:What do they know?
Guest:I know Lenny Bruce.
Guest:I read about the book.
Guest:They don't read Spinoza.
Marc:Yeah, they know they've got to fill their schedule with clowns that come in and they're like, what are you doing this afternoon?
Marc:Well, you know, I had two wines, but we got these twins coming in, so that should be fun.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you start to instantly realize, oh, I'm just a fucking commodity.
Guest:I didn't feel like a commodity.
Guest:And that's what threw you?
Guest:It threw me.
Guest:I've been trying to move away from that for so long with the law shit, and I wanted to do comedy for a spiritual reason.
Marc:But the commodity didn't have any historical ghosts.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:I didn't need to bring race into it.
Marc:that's a good point i didn't think about that okay that's probably better off no no but that's right but maybe that's a part of it maybe that was a part of it feeling like you know well that won't labor and i'm like it's not about the comedy but not only labor but you're also up against that you know you're not one black guy fighting against uh typecasting but you're two black guys fighting against a different type of podcasting that's right no they're nerdy stoner black guys and they're
Marc:twins so it's not really about them being black no no they're not doing a regular black thing no they're doing this twin thing which they can just sort of view the race into it and we can get the best of both worlds and it's like i just want to do comedy yeah right so how did you uh like how did you pull out of that what how'd you how'd you save him from the commodification it was him it was the existential commodification depression
Guest:Keith constantly said, look, man, we're doing this shit together.
Guest:This is fun.
Guest:It's still an experience.
Guest:For better or for worse, it's us going through an experience.
Guest:And like I said, I tell him, no great story is told without obstacles.
Guest:Even with the obstacles, you're still living a decent story.
Guest:Just embrace that.
Marc:Embrace that moment.
Guest:Not think about the end result.
Marc:And then he looked at you and he went,
Marc:All right.
Marc:What's that bit we're doing?
Marc:All right, all right.
Marc:Let's get back to the pot bit.
Guest:Let's do the weed thing.
Marc:Let's do the weed thing.
Guest:I mean, a lot of it was actually our past trauma.
Guest:We never really addressed growing up where we grew up.
Guest:And it sort of manifested itself in different ways.
Guest:With law, with comedy.
Guest:We just didn't address the childhood trauma.
Marc:Which was specifically what?
Guest:Growing up without a father.
Guest:Growing up poor.
Guest:Growing up with an abusive stepfather.
Guest:Growing up in a drug adult.
Guest:The deaths.
Guest:The suicides.
Guest:Honestly, I just repressed it all.
Guest:I never talked to a therapist about it.
Guest:I was just like, fuck it.
Guest:I'm going to attack law and attack whatever I do.
Guest:I'm going to transcend your action.
Guest:I'm going to become successful.
Guest:And when you don't achieve success and you don't address your past trauma, it's almost as if you tie your self-worth to what you perceive as failure.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because you already feel worthless because you grew up poor.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You never really...
Guest:To this day, I'm insecure about my looks.
Guest:I'm insecure about my intelligence, everything.
Guest:I'm constantly thinking I'm not worthy.
Guest:And then when you fail, it's an even bigger reaction.
Marc:Because then it's sort of like, of course I did.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Again, this is just what it was meant to be.
Marc:Right, victim mode.
Guest:Yeah, you try to put yourself in a victim mode.
Guest:And you take things, I think, out of proportion.
Marc:So how did you get hip to that process of grieving or acknowledging the trauma?
Guest:Kenny suggested therapy for the first time in our lives.
Guest:At 30, we were like, oh, let's talk to a therapist.
Marc:The two of yous.
Guest:Two of us, yeah, we went together.
Guest:Joint therapy.
Guest:Yeah, couples therapy.
Guest:Couples therapy.
Guest:It was couples therapy.
Guest:And we were having issues with communication too, like fighting all the time.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I think it was just, I hate myself, but I get to see him, so I hate him too.
Marc:Yeah, project it right onto him.
Guest:I get to punch him in the face and punch myself.
Marc:It's so much easier than projecting it onto an audience or a woman.
Marc:It's like, you got a guy that looks exactly like you.
Marc:It's like, I hate me, you.
Guest:That's exactly what it was, though.
Guest:Or is.
Guest:I hate me, you.
Guest:I hate me, you.
Marc:That's so great.
Marc:That is so great.
Marc:You can have it.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I hate you.
Marc:Yes, that's exactly what it was.
Marc:So I hate poetry.
Marc:Yeah, that's it.
Guest:So it's that inner hatred that you have for yourself.
Guest:And then, again, it manifests itself when you fail.
Marc:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:Because you've got to blame somebody.
Guest:You've got to blame someone.
Guest:Can't blame.
Marc:Hard to blame yourself.
Marc:Hard to blame yourself.
Marc:Hard to take the responsibility for that.
Marc:You'd rather think you're getting fucked somehow.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:You become navigatorial.
Guest:You become paranoid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so the therapy helped.
Guest:tremendously I mean our therapist just told us like we recognized is it a special twin therapist she's a child she's a children's therapist oh interesting yeah she deals with like childhood trauma oh interesting it was just like I never cried about my past oh good it was at that point where I was like
Guest:i realized i never cried about growing up the way i grew up yeah i finally cried for the first time about it and it was very relieving yeah it's like felt like let it go letting it go yeah yeah did you both cry oh yeah different times the same time for the first time in our lives we cried together we had a moment yeah holy shit yeah it was like yeah all this shit we just kept in and like you gotta let that stuff out you gotta let it out somehow that must have been an insane morning
Guest:Hey, man, you want to wear this?
Guest:No, man.
Guest:I'm crying too.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I hate my stepdad.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:That's so funny.
Guest:The immediate connection with someone else around it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:There was no distance.
Guest:You didn't have to call the other brother.
Marc:No, no, no.
Guest:We were very cathartic.
Marc:It was nice.
Marc:Oh, that's beautiful.
Marc:That's beautiful.
Marc:Do you still go or?
Guest:Yeah, we still go.
Guest:We're meditating more.
Guest:We're reading more philosophy and realizing that, you know, everybody has problems.
Guest:And everyone deals with their problems in certain ways.
Guest:But you got to recognize that this is a, I don't know, a special time for us.
Guest:We're engaging in comedy.
Guest:Like, it's like, it's amazing.
Marc:And you got this special.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:That's out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's why we're here.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I just wanted to talk to you.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:But this is the first special, right?
Marc:Yeah, this is our first special.
Marc:Have you done an album before?
Marc:No.
Marc:So this is the first thing.
Marc:The first thing.
Marc:The first big thing.
Marc:The first big thing.
Marc:What is it on?
Marc:Netflix.
Marc:Oh, and it's on The Big Thing.
Marc:It's on The Big Thing.
Guest:Everyone knows what that is.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:On Netflix.
Guest:Oh, you're great in GLOW.
Marc:Oh, thank you very much, buddy.
Guest:Fantastic.
Guest:I think it's you.
Marc:Yeah, it surprised everybody, me included.
Marc:It's a beautiful show.
Marc:It is, really.
Marc:For me, it's all gravy on some degree.
Marc:Somehow or another, I managed to make a life for myself here in the garage.
Marc:And when I started it, I'd let go of the, I'm going to be a big comedian, I'm going to be an actor, I'm going to have a show.
Marc:I let go of all that, and somehow or another, out of this garage, it all comes.
Marc:It's such a beautiful story.
Marc:It's a historic story.
Guest:It's crazy.
Marc:And I just wanted to try acting not as me, and I felt confident.
Marc:I didn't feel like I was an actor necessarily, but I knew that I'd gotten the experience to graduate school and doing my own show on IFC that a few people watched.
Marc:But I knew, like, I was comfortable.
Marc:I understood the fucking thing.
Marc:Dude, it's amazing.
Marc:So when I entered this, I'm like, I get how it works.
Marc:Now we just got to focus on being this guy and maybe it'll work.
Marc:And none of it was hanging on me other than the own challenge to me.
Marc:Like, you know, I got to become this guy.
Marc:The worst thing that could happen, the worst thing is that people are like, no, Maren didn't do it.
Marc:They didn't pull it off.
Marc:That was the worst thing.
Marc:It would hurt, but it'd be like, it ain't hanging on me.
Marc:You know, like...
Marc:If the show didn't work out, not my fault.
Guest:I already got paid, baby.
Guest:Look at the writers.
Guest:It ain't me.
Guest:Paycheck coming in.
Marc:If I didn't do a bad job acting, it's someone else's problem.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:That was a fucking cultural phenomenon.
Guest:I mean, you're integral to it.
Marc:well i'm excited it was a it was all like i said it was uh like i'm open to it i'm surprised about it in all honesty and i hope to god you guys can get to this place sometime i don't give a fuck that's where i want to get to that's exactly yeah i mean that's the key i think that's the key not giving a fuck yeah it's very hard to get there honestly of course and it requires something like you know obviously look i'm not louie i'm not kevin hart but you're you though
Marc:Right, that's it.
Marc:At some point, that's what you realize, that's what I'm working for.
Marc:And it's like, all I want to do is make a living.
Marc:I just didn't want to be like, fuck, what happens now?
Guest:But your story is very inspirational.
Guest:We see it, and we're like, okay, this is a guy who went up against forces that we have to go up against, and you're persevering.
Guest:That's important to us.
Marc:Yeah, it was complete desperation and fear.
Yeah.
Guest:But it doesn't seem like that.
Guest:You seem like a courageous hero.
Marc:Like a prophet almost.
Marc:That's where that comes from.
Marc:That's where that comes from.
Marc:All those guys start completely desperate and terrified.
Guest:But you didn't give up.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:But that's the problem.
Marc:It's like after a certain point, like I said to you earlier, it's like the teaching thing gets further and further away.
Marc:It's like there is no giving up.
Marc:Who's going to fire you?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:And the pride involved in it.
Marc:Well, you can jump off a bridge.
Marc:Well, that's it.
Those are the options.
Marc:Either I set these mics up in my garage or I fucking hang myself in it.
Guest:I guess I got to go with option one.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Yeah, that's where it comes from.
Marc:Yeah, but I feel better.
Marc:It's not like I didn't put the time in.
Marc:I don't think anyone's going to say, like, that guy didn't deserve that.
Marc:No.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:Not at all.
Guest:Not at all.
Guest:I mean, it's just like, yeah, once you live within yourself and realize, like, okay, this is my story, this is my life, and I'm going to do whatever I can do to make it
Guest:Right.
Guest:Make it my story.
Guest:And that's what you did.
Guest:You have no choice.
Guest:Yeah, you literally have no choice.
Marc:That's what I believe.
Marc:And then depending on when it happens, if it happens, then you got to figure out, like, well, what is my life now?
Marc:So I fought the fight.
Marc:I feel all right.
Marc:I'm doing what I want to do.
Marc:But I don't know how to have a good time.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:What is a good time?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Virtue, man.
Marc:Happy.
Guest:The virtue is life.
Marc:Well, I don't know.
Marc:The virtue, like, I'm going to need a little work.
Yeah.
Marc:I got some virtuous elements, but some elements not so virtuous.
Marc:You can't be too virtuous.
Marc:You don't want to be corrupt on all levels.
Marc:It's an ongoing dialogue.
Guest:The Aristotelian golden mean.
Guest:You want to find somewhere...
Guest:In the middle.
Marc:Well, you try to help.
Marc:You try not to hurt people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, you try to fight the good fight in the way that you're capable of.
Marc:And you try to make sure that some part of you is honestly doing it for the right reasons and not for selfish reasons.
Guest:Without a doubt.
Guest:And I think that, I mean, you are living a virtuous life.
Marc:I'm doing all right.
Marc:You're doing a great thing.
Guest:I think you have to really, like, sit back and marvel in it.
Marc:I do sometimes.
Marc:You should.
Marc:But I got to be careful because one of my virtuous liabilities, one of the liabilities to my virtue is that if I start feeling too good about me, then I'm going to start being like, who the fuck are you guys?
Marc:Yeah, that's fair.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, but that's fair.
Marc:So you guys are doing a twin thing?
Guest:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:Yeah, more twin shit.
Guest:I don't want to be that guy again.
Guest:That's fair.
Guest:But I feel like you can never become that person again.
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:You've evolved to a point where you're, at least from my perspective, it seems as if you're more at ease.
Marc:Well, I think that it reengaged me with an empathy that I had shut down out of my own sort of spite.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That like, you know, out of my own entitlement, out of my own self-pity.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If you're consumed with self-pity or angry that your life did not turn out the way you want, it's very difficult to be empathetic.
Marc:yeah i totally agree because you know because you you you're you know you're sort of this like you know how are you going to put yourself in the shoes of somebody else when you feel like you've been fucked absolutely like everybody should put themselves in your shoes yeah i got problems yeah and like and then you know that can lead to real real problems yeah you're so me oriented right oh yeah possible to think about other people yeah and i think this thing is like helped on a lot of levels spiritual philosophical yeah you know uh moral emotional
Marc:But I'm glad you guys got this special.
Marc:So are you happy with it?
Guest:No, I don't think anyone is happy with their... I'm happy that I was able to do it.
Guest:I'm privileged to have been able to do a special, but I'm always like, it has to be better.
Guest:I have to do better than this.
Guest:I'm happy.
Guest:I'm happy.
Guest:I'm happy.
Guest:But I'm hard on myself.
Guest:I always want to do better.
Guest:When I think about my comedy career, I think about it holistically.
Guest:Obviously, this is the first special.
Guest:And presumably, if you do another one, it should get better.
Guest:But it's not about that.
Guest:It's about being able to work with your brother.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Put comedy out there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, some people watch it and laugh and it makes their day.
Guest:It is a beautiful, yeah.
Guest:It's just a beautiful experience.
Marc:Yeah, and that's it.
Marc:Yeah, so you gotta fight that commodity thing.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Because the weird thing is, is that we don't live in a time where like everything is in the balance.
Marc:You know, it's not make or break.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there's a lot of specials to the point where it's like, how special are they really?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And it's just that like, if you can appreciate that you did that thing and it's good and you're happy, like not necessarily happy with it, but you did the best you could.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And where'd you tape it?
Marc:We taped it in Brooklyn.
Guest:Oh, great.
Guest:It's a special because it's special to me.
Guest:Yeah, it's special to me.
Guest:I don't need it to be special to everyone.
Marc:I think people are going to like it.
Marc:And it's, what's it called?
Marc:On drugs.
Guest:On drugs, yeah.
Guest:But it's not just about drugs.
Marc:Yeah, it's catchy.
Guest:You know how philosophers have that on.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:Oh, I get it.
Marc:It's that kind of on.
Marc:It's that kind of on.
Marc:Yeah, that might be one of those decisions that, in retrospect, you're like, I don't think people got that.
Marc:I'm sure most people have it.
Guest:That's all I have to say.
Guest:It's about, you know, it's like On Liberty by John Stuart Mill on drugs.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I've made those kind of decisions.
Marc:Yeah, like, you know, this is clever.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Lost on everyone.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:No one gets it.
Guest:No one gets it.
Guest:But yeah, comedy's so personal.
Guest:Sometimes we think about everything else but that personal relationship with the comedy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I like to just keep it there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it feels like your collective heart's in the right place.
Marc:No, I think so.
Marc:And I'm glad you guys leveled off.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And this was great.
Marc:I had a great time talking to you.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Okay, that was fun.
Marc:Philosophical.
Marc:I enjoyed that.
Marc:I get a kick out of those guys.
Marc:I get a kick out of those Lucas Brothers.
Marc:What can I tell you?
Marc:I do.
Marc:Go to WTF Pod for all your WTF Pod needs.
Marc:Get on the mailing list.
Marc:Pre-order.
Marc:The book is there.
Marc:And why don't I play, I'm going to play guitar with that new, that Keeley engineering pedal I got.
Marc:That came with the extra wire thing that I don't think I'm going to use.
Marc:Unless someone comes over here and tells me what the fuck it's for.
Marc:All right, so I'm just going to... I don't know what this thing does.
Marc:It sounds nice.
Marc:It's a double tracker, a 30 MS double tracker from Keeley.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:And I'm not using the extra wire.
Marc:I know that.
Marc:But it sounds pretty.
Marc:It sounds pretty.
It sounds pretty.
Thank you.
Guest:Boomer Lives!