Episode 829 - Edie Falco
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuck publicans?
Marc:What the fuck a crats?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:Keep in mind that I believe that he's guilty of all of it.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's the message.
Marc:That's the message.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:Is everything all right?
Marc:Are you all right?
Marc:Am I all right?
Marc:That's the big question.
Marc:That's the big question.
Marc:Am I okay?
Marc:I think that coffee is turning on me.
Marc:You know, it's one of those things when you do something compulsively and you rely on it and it's one of the things you look forward to probably more than you should.
Marc:Just thinking about that first cigarette and that first cup of coffee in the morning used to make everything.
Marc:All right, now it's the coffee and the lozenge.
Marc:But I think everything's starting to turn on me.
Marc:I think that my machinery has had enough.
Marc:Like I can drink coffee all fucking day now.
Marc:Now it's starting to taste funny.
Marc:You know, when you're addicted to something and then it starts to taste shitty, like your body's sort of like, no, no, no.
Marc:I think we've had enough.
Marc:But coffee, I can't.
Marc:You know, it's so much part of my life and I drink it like most people drink water.
Marc:I think it's having a diminishing effect.
Marc:Fuck.
Marc:Oh, pow.
Marc:I just shit my pants.
Marc:Just coffee doc co-op.
Marc:Old school WTF plug.
Marc:Unsolicited.
Marc:Just happened like an old habit.
Marc:I don't think I'm going to give it up.
Marc:So what's going on, man?
Marc:Edie Falco.
Marc:is on the show today edie falco wait now most of us have a relationship with edie falco as carmella soprano or nurse jackie so and of course her working horse and pete and uh you know movies she showed up in here and there but uh but carmella right carmella am i fucking right carmella um
Marc:But the thing is, it's so weird, and I have this situation when I interview actors who have become known for a part, is that you make assumptions about the person based on their performance.
Marc:And yeah, sometimes it's there, sometimes it isn't.
Marc:But I was a little nervous to talk to Edie Falco.
Marc:I'll go into it more in a minute.
Marc:Let's discuss...
Marc:To be honest with you, I'm doing this a little ahead of time, this episode, because my business partner would like to have a free week.
Marc:He's entitled.
Marc:Brendan is entitled to not have to do this the day before.
Marc:He's entitled.
Marc:And I was going to take a week.
Marc:I thought, well, fuck it.
Marc:If Brendan's going to do something, take a week to himself, why don't I do it?
Marc:And I was, what am I going to do?
Marc:Where am I going to go?
Marc:Because my brain, here's where my brain goes to.
Marc:It's like...
Marc:I wanted to get out.
Marc:I'm not talking about going to Ojai.
Marc:I'm not talking about going to Desert Hot Springs.
Marc:I was thinking, if I got four or five days, I'm going to go to fucking Ireland and just sit there in the greenness.
Marc:And then the rugged people with a sense of history that has sort of worn them down to fine nubs of humanity with a deep poetic sort of insight and a kind of a lyrical melancholy.
Marc:I'm going to go do that.
Marc:Eat some fish.
Marc:You know, right out of the ocean there.
Marc:Whatever my romanticization.
Marc:So I'm like, I'll just go to Ireland for a few days with no plan.
Marc:Then I looked up some fairs and some time frames.
Marc:Takes 15 hours to get there from here.
Marc:And then, you know, one day's fucked.
Marc:So that was out.
Marc:Then I started thinking Vancouver, like Vancouver's three hours away.
Marc:That seemed more rational.
Marc:That seemed more practical.
Marc:I really wanted to get out of this country for a minute just to have a reprieve from the intensity of garbage that
Marc:That is that is happening here on a cultural and political level.
Marc:And for me, I don't know about for you.
Marc:It works if I just hand someone my passport and they stamp it and I go right away.
Marc:I'm like, all right, that's that's behind me for now.
Marc:And, you know, I almost went.
Marc:Maybe I did go.
Marc:Maybe I will have decided by the time you're listening to this just to go.
Marc:But then I get into that thing.
Marc:It's like, what am I going to do up there?
Marc:I wanted to travel alone.
Marc:You know, Sarah, she's got a lot of painting to do.
Marc:And sometimes I just need to clear my head.
Marc:And then I think about myself alone in Canada and hotel.
Marc:It's a great hotel up there in Vancouver, the Rosewood area.
Marc:Georgia.
Marc:And it was like it was one of the best hotels.
Marc:I don't even know why.
Marc:I don't even know where my head was at.
Marc:Double pane glass, completely quiet, beautifully climate controlled, nice mattress.
Marc:So am I going to be one of those guys that just spends a little money and just goes and sits in a hotel and eats room service for three days and then comes back?
Marc:And then I thought, well, maybe I'll go to Granville Island.
Marc:I'll walk around a little bit.
Marc:I'll look at the water.
Marc:I'll see the nice people, the nice sort of like relatively stress-free, diverse palette of culture up there.
Marc:Everything that I used to think was boring about Canada, to me, it's just like, that sounds relaxing.
Marc:I remember going up there just like, what the fuck is going on here?
Marc:This is a city, right?
Marc:Why is that guy just sitting outside at 1030 at night?
Marc:What is that dude just doing like casually riding his bike?
Marc:It's midnight.
Marc:What the fuck is happening here?
Marc:Man, this is sort of weird and a little bit boring.
Marc:Now in my mind, it's like, sounds great.
Marc:Sounds relaxing.
Okay.
Marc:So I might be in Vancouver when you hear this.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Because the other side of it is I get up there.
Marc:What am I going to take a walk?
Marc:I'm going to sit.
Marc:I'm going to sit in the hotel room.
Marc:I'm going to watch TV.
Marc:I know two people up there.
Marc:I'm not going to work.
Marc:How many days of that do I need?
Marc:What's going to happen?
Marc:See, this is how I fuck myself out of all good times.
Marc:Maybe I'll just take a ride into the desert and hike in Joshua Tree in the 110 degree heat.
Marc:Almost die from heat stroke and exhaustion and feel cleansed.
Marc:See, that's the thing, man.
Marc:Sometimes I like the heat because having a propensity towards altered states...
Marc:even if you're exhausted, you're like, hey, man, this feels pretty good.
Marc:I think I'm about to pass out.
Marc:That's exactly where I want to be sometimes.
Marc:Things are going good.
Marc:Did I mention this?
Marc:The special that I made for Netflix, Too Real, will be out on Netflix on Tuesday, September 5th, and it looks good.
Marc:It looks good.
Marc:Lynn Shelton nailed it.
Marc:Lynn Shelton, who directed a couple Marins, who directed an episode of Glow, who directs her own movies, has been on this show.
Marc:She had never directed a stand-up comedy special before.
Marc:And I pulled her in and she fucking nailed it.
Marc:And it's hard to do those things, you know, and make them look, you know, different without forcing that or, you know, having a like, let's do it, you know, from, you know, from the ceiling.
Marc:And let's, you know, like there's not, you know, it is what it is, but there are subtleties and there's ways you can design the set and there's ways you can shoot.
Marc:Without making it obvious that you're trying to do something different that actually embraces the form of standup.
Marc:And she's a fan of mine, so she knows what I do.
Marc:She digs what I do.
Marc:So we were able to get something that looked fucking beautiful, moved beautiful.
Marc:You know, kept it real.
Marc:Not a lot of audience shots.
Marc:That's the weird thing about those standup specials.
Marc:Generally, when you see the cutaway to the two people that no one cares about, you know, laughing or clapping, usually out of context with the actual joke, it's because they want to take a chunk out.
Marc:It's an editing tool.
Marc:So we limited that.
Marc:The lighting was beautiful.
Marc:The theater was beautiful.
Marc:Did some interesting shots in terms of intimacy and close-up.
Marc:Anyways, all I'm saying is from where I'm sitting, when I looked at that final cut, I was like, this thing looks good.
Marc:It looks better than my material, I bet.
Marc:That's what I'll say.
Marc:The act was good.
Marc:I worked hard on it.
Marc:So that, too real.
Marc:Marc Maron's stand-up special, that's me, will be on Netflix on Tuesday, September 5th.
Marc:Like, I'm nauseous from coffee.
Marc:I'm nauseous now.
Marc:I'm sweating.
Marc:Ah, feels good, man.
Marc:Altered states, bro.
Marc:So, Edie Falco is here, and I was intimidated, and I realized I didn't... I was trying to figure out why I was a little intimidated going into this, and I realized because...
Marc:If I suspect that somebody is a kind of well-boundaried person, i.e.
Marc:has healthy boundaries, I get nervous about how to engage.
Marc:And this is all projection.
Marc:She seems tough and seems to have a pretty good sense of self, and she's grounded, and she seems to have boundaries.
Marc:And certainly her characters, though some of them have weaknesses and are dark in general, I still feel that...
Marc:She's a no bullshit kind of person.
Marc:Frankly, I'm sometimes a little bullshitty.
Marc:I'm not saying that I'm full of shit or that I'm lying, but I will engage my charm muscle.
Marc:That muscle, it's got some punch to it, but not always enough.
Marc:to, uh, to get through.
Marc:So I didn't know, you know, and, and I, I adapt to conversations and, uh, you know, sometimes too much.
Marc:Sometimes, you know, I will, I will, uh, sort of, uh, appropriate, uh, verbal accents and ticks without even knowing it.
Marc:I'm Zelligy like that.
Marc:But, uh, but all my fears were, were, uh, for not, uh,
Marc:We had a lovely conversation and I love her.
Marc:I love her work.
Marc:And it was a thrill to talk to her.
Marc:But I was nervous and I told her that.
Marc:She's in a new film that I watched from the director of...
Marc:Obvious Child, it's called Landline, which opens in select theaters this Friday, July 21st.
Marc:And Jenny Slate is in it again.
Marc:She was an Obvious Child as well, who I love and who I had a great conversation with.
Marc:Anyways, rambling on, we're heading into Edie Falco.
Marc:The movie is Landline.
Marc:It opens, as I said, Friday, July 21st.
Marc:This is me talking to Edie Falco
Marc:And being honest right up front.
Marc:Straightforward.
Marc:Just got to get in there and tell her how I feel.
Marc:This is exciting.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:It is exciting.
Marc:It is.
Marc:I like that you don't have any real idea who I am.
Marc:That made me happy.
Guest:No, I mean, I know that Louie did a podcast with you that was much talked about.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Louie and I go way back.
Guest:Is that right?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:We've had our moments in that podcast.
Marc:We patched up, and now occasionally I hear from him.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Did something controversial happen?
Marc:With me and him?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, we were very good friends years ago, and then his success somehow threatened me.
Guest:I understand.
Guest:Totally get it.
Guest:How brave of you to say so?
Marc:Well, that's sort of what the conversation was about.
Marc:I copped to it, and he took me to task about it, and then we decided we would try to make it work.
Guest:Go beyond it.
Marc:To be friends again.
Guest:Amazing.
Marc:He came here.
Marc:He talked about Horace and Pete very specifically for like an hour.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He told me about casting you.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:What was it about Horace and Pete that made you say like, oh, hell yeah?
Guest:Louie.
Guest:He's a smart guy.
Guest:People I respect, respect him.
Guest:Although I didn't know entirely all that much about him.
Guest:I certainly knew who he was, but...
Marc:But you hadn't seen necessarily his old show.
Guest:No, I hadn't seen his stand-up stuff.
Guest:I hadn't seen his old show.
Marc:You didn't know his tone.
Guest:No, no, not at all.
Marc:You didn't know the depth of the darkness of Louis?
Guest:No, no, but that speaks my language.
Guest:He came up to me, I think it was at the Emmys, and he said, hi, I've written this part for you with my thing.
Guest:And I said, yes.
Guest:And he said, so I'll send you this.
Guest:I said, no, yes, yes, yes, I'm in.
Guest:I'm in.
Guest:That's how it started.
Marc:And what was your experience on that thing?
Marc:Because it's a weird thing.
Guest:It's a weird thing.
Guest:It was even better than I had imagined.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I had to kind of be awake.
Guest:You get to a certain point in this business where everything is a little bit predictable.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, the way things go, the way things are written, the way a set feels.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Louis had this idea of doing this thing that no one had ever done.
Guest:I think the first day on set, he said, I have no idea if we'll be able to do this idea I have.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:What could be more exciting than that, you know?
Marc:The director and the creator say, I don't really know.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I put all my money into this.
Guest:At least it was his money and not mine.
Guest:He was the one willing to take the risk.
Guest:So I was completely down with it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And as an actress, was it more like theater?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What he was doing there?
Guest:it was it was also interesting because uh doing theater yeah for me the way i memorize although i never really thought about this until horace and pete yeah the way i memorize is by when you get the thing on its feet and you block it like when you walk to the couch you say this line and then when you walk across the room that's when you start this line and otherwise it's too right what we did is he said all right you come in on tuesday you have it memorized yeah and then we'll kind of get it up and moving and i so we had to i remember looking at buscemi's like there's so many words how
Guest:What the hell am I supposed to do this?
Guest:But we did.
Guest:We somehow did it.
Guest:We somehow did it.
Guest:And I was pleased to find it was something I could still do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Something as simple as just memorizing something point blank without.
Marc:Well, it's weird.
Marc:It's sort of like it's kind of like riding a bike on some level.
Marc:I mean, you do it.
Marc:You know, you have done it before.
Guest:Not like this, though.
Guest:I mean, seriously, you remember things from a play.
Guest:You know, pretty much many theater actors I've spoken to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In a play, you remember it in chunks, according to having had it up on its feet.
Guest:You put the script in your hand for a very long time.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And then you're like, I walk over, I say that to that guy.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:I say this out there.
Guest:And in anything other than that, film or television, for the most part, I would sit in the makeup chair at Nurse Jackie and say, all right, what are we doing today?
Guest:I could look at the script.
Guest:You know, it's a page.
Guest:It's half a page.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:When I first realized that, it was such a relief.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's like, I've got to memorize all this shit.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:It's three lines today.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Oh, I can handle that.
Guest:I can do that.
Marc:And you'll do it over and over again from several different angles until the life is sucked out of it entirely.
Guest:Until you sound like an automaton, which is what you're aiming for.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But that's the weird part of the job.
Marc:I know.
Marc:The part of the job is like, can you make it sound good the 90 times?
Guest:That's it.
Guest:That is the job.
Guest:That is the job.
Guest:For TV.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And movies.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:And then it's sitting and being able to sit and not eat too much.
That's right.
Guest:Or smoke too much, as it was back in the day.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So you're wheezing when you get behind.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you know Steve Buscemi for years, I'd imagine?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I do, I guess.
Marc:From New York?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I think I met him a million years ago on the sort of festival circuit.
Guest:I was going around with, oh, I don't remember, Laws of Gravity, and he was doing his Trees Lounge, was it maybe?
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Yeah, that was similar to Horace and Pete in a way.
Marc:Was it?
Marc:Well, I mean, it was dark and weird.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Not uplifting in any way.
Guest:All right.
Marc:You didn't walk out of the movie, you know, like.
Guest:Happy to be alive.
Guest:Yeah, this is great.
Marc:You might walk out of the movie with, that is kind of what it's like.
Guest:I would expect no less.
Marc:Yeah, but he's an interesting actor.
Guest:You know, I'm not great at articulating these things.
Guest:I just know when I watch him, I'm happy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Even if it's a crappy character or, you know.
Marc:Do you like working with him?
Guest:I love him.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:Love it, love it.
Guest:He's kind and he's so smart.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's a little bit like Popeye.
Guest:He has really funny jokes, but they're half under his breath.
Marc:Oh, right, right.
Guest:So if you're not paying attention, you won't catch him.
Marc:You miss it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But where did you, like, where were you born?
Guest:Where'd you grow up?
Guest:Grew up on Long Island.
Guest:I was born in Brooklyn and grew up on Long Island.
Marc:Like on what part of Long Island?
Marc:The Jewish part or the other part?
Guest:No, no, I'm not Jewish.
Guest:I'm Italian and Swedish.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Grew up on the South Shore and like Bay Shore and West Islip and Babylon.
Marc:So you moved around a lot?
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:I mean, not a ton.
Guest:And then my family moved to Northport, which is where some of them still are.
Marc:that's in long island too yes it is it's just directly north so you're completely long island person indeed yes yes long island townie long island townie but i've been away for a long time yeah but are they still out there anybody they are they are my family like i guess kind of everybody is yeah so you go out there yeah yeah sure i go out there and what do you come from uh like what what were the like what what were the jobs what did your parents do
Guest:Mom had all kinds of jobs.
Guest:Let's see.
Guest:She worked at a radio station for a while.
Guest:She was, in fact, a disc jockey.
Guest:And then she was also a copywriter for a while.
Guest:She's worked in factories.
Marc:So she's sort of an entertainer.
Guest:She was an actress when I was a young kid.
Guest:Really?
Guest:She was a community theater actress.
Guest:And I used to go with her.
Guest:I just thought it was the coolest thing in the whole world.
Guest:It is the coolest thing in the whole world.
Guest:But these were people who had real jobs during the day.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And at night they would get together and say these lines and then, and I just thought it was just the coolest thing in the whole world and it made no sense and I loved it.
Marc:And the first time you go backstage is really the, there's something amazing about that.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Isn't there?
Marc:Totally.
Marc:That's what show business is, is when you're waiting backstage to go on a talk show and you're like, it's just people working and there's an animal.
Guest:Something that stays with me was my mom.
Guest:I went backstage with my mom.
Guest:They all shared a dressing room.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was a sort of, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:you know, Long Island Theater.
Guest:Is this a naked story?
Marc:A what?
Marc:A naked person story?
Guest:It kind of is.
Guest:I was a kid and I don't know how old I was.
Guest:And they were talking, my mom was talking to some grown man and all of a sudden he pulls his pants down and he's in his underwear talking to my mom who takes her shirt off and I was at once like mortified and exhilarated beyond belief that this could happen.
Guest:The cops didn't come, nobody shut down the place.
Guest:It was just a normal part of the day.
Marc:She still loved your father.
Guest:Anyway, so that happened.
Guest:And it was one of the many magnificent things about being there with my mom.
Marc:Oh, it's great.
Marc:And when did you start doing it?
Guest:Well, they would occasionally throw me into some of these community theater plays.
Guest:And then I went to college, and I sort of thought I'd be a shrink.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And then what at the time was most interesting to me, I'm not sure it's not still what's most interesting to me,
Guest:But one of the teachers in high school said, you know, aren't you in the plays and stuff at school?
Guest:Why don't you become an actress?
Guest:And I thought it was such a strange thing to say.
Guest:I mean, I thought you'd become an actress if you're famous or if you're from a famous family or whatever.
Marc:You didn't know the path to it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It just seemed preposterous, by the way.
Marc:It does, right?
Guest:But I knew that I'd get to do plays at college, and so that's kind of how that whole thing started.
Marc:Was your dad in show business?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Dad was a drummer.
Guest:For real?
Guest:In like the Catskill thing.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like he was in a showroom band in the Catskill?
Guest:Yes, but I mean, four guys, I think, or something like that.
Guest:That's how he supported himself as a kid, yeah.
Marc:So he was like in a combo.
Guest:Drummer and a singer, yeah.
Guest:Frankie Falcon and his orchestra, it was called.
Guest:and they used to play up in the Catskills up in the Catskills when he was a kid that's how he supported himself but he went to the high school of music and art and he wasn't sure what path he would follow but I think he saw the drummers being they seemed a bit more devoted to their craft than he thought he might be so he ended up becoming an artist and doing commercial art more security like I'm going to be a painter of the two he was also a painter and a sculptor
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He's not around anymore?
Guest:He's not in great health, but he is still with us.
Marc:Did he do work?
Marc:I mean, did you see the paintings?
Guest:They were all around my house growing up, and they're still around my house.
Guest:A lot of his work is in my house.
Marc:Oh, that's sweet.
Marc:What kind of stuff do you do?
Guest:Oh, everything.
Guest:I mean, he's another one.
Guest:He wasn't much of a rule follower, so he has some sort of mixed media stuff, some straight-up sculpture, some paintings, little crafty things.
Marc:So you grew up in a creative house.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:The energy of that sort of rulelessness was always around me.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And I guess that's the positive side of a boundary-less, chaotic upbringing.
Guest:Yes, exactly right.
Guest:Exactly right.
Guest:But then, yeah, something to be said for that.
Guest:You find your own way because nobody's telling you that you can't do it.
Marc:Well, that's true.
Marc:I grew up like that, too.
Marc:And one of the things I was intimidated about you coming over for some reason.
Marc:Oh, please.
Marc:No, for having known your work, the work that I know that you've done,
Marc:You know, I'm like, oh, she's got such good boundaries.
Marc:It's going to be difficult.
Guest:I've recalled a lot of things in my day, but difficult isn't one of them.
Marc:No, but I mean, I just thought like, you know, because you seem tough.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Are you?
Guest:I love that.
Guest:No, I'm not.
Guest:I mean, you know, in some ways I am.
Guest:I got my badass side for sure.
Guest:But when it comes to this stuff, not really.
Marc:No?
Guest:No.
Guest:I wish I was tougher.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you have siblings?
Guest:Yes, I do.
Guest:Let's see.
Guest:I have an older brother, a younger brother, and sister.
Marc:And they do regular jobs?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know what?
Guest:My sister is in the art department of TVs and movie stuff.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, so she makes things?
Guest:She actually worked on Tree's Lounge.
Guest:Oh, she did?
Guest:I think that was her very first job, maybe in the art department.
Marc:She does set deck or something like that?
Guest:She does more like, you know, they have to do a scene in a living room.
Guest:So she'll go and figure out the dimensions on AutoCAD or whatever.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:She does a lot of computer stuff and a lot of measuring stuff and a lot of designing stuff.
Marc:Creates the room on the computer so they can.
Guest:So they can build it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, that's good.
Guest:That's important.
Guest:I mean, she was also trained partially as an architect.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:She's, you know.
Marc:Those are the people with the real jobs in show business.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:The people who have to be sort of smart.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, the people where you walk into the place, you're like, holy shit, this looks great.
Guest:How did this happen?
Guest:Yeah, I could live here easily.
Marc:So where did you study?
Marc:Where did you go to college?
Marc:What was that?
Guest:I went to SUNY Purchase.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, it was about, whatever, 45 minutes outside of Manhattan.
Marc:It's up north-like-ish?
Guest:Yeah, Westchester.
Marc:It's nice there, right?
Marc:It's like, isn't it pretty-ish?
Guest:Well, yeah, it was built as a prison.
Guest:So the actual place itself is less than stunning and inviting.
Guest:It's brown bricks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Um, but I was ecstatically happy during that time.
Guest:Uh, many of my friends, undergrad, many of my friends I have now were people I met then.
Marc:You were in the performing arts program as an undergrad.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So you just, you ditched psychology.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:I mean, they're pretty closely related in some ways, but yes, I ditched psychology.
Marc:And, and what to, you know, so you just did, what did you learn there as an undergrad?
Marc:Did you do graduate work?
Guest:I didn't do graduate work.
Marc:You just did the undergrad.
Marc:So was it a good program?
Yeah.
Guest:You know, it had great facilities.
Guest:It had very great teachers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, what I did over my time at acting schools, I lost a great deal of confidence that I went in there with.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I wasn't able to really verbalize what the hell I was doing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And a lot of the students at the school were.
Guest:They could say, well, you know, we would learn all these techniques.
Yeah.
Guest:When I first needed to access the information of the number of the address, I put my eyes to the upper right because that's where your eyes go when you're thinking about whatever it was.
Guest:And I was like, what?
Guest:What's happening?
Guest:I just felt like I'm the worst actor in the world because I didn't know what I was doing.
Guest:I couldn't tell anybody what I was doing.
Guest:I was very insecure.
Marc:But you were doing it.
Guest:You know, but I didn't know.
Guest:I just felt like I was doing it badly.
Marc:Yeah, but that's a good question because I've begun to talk, since I've been doing a little acting, I've begun to talk to actors about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:About specifically, you know, what they take and what they don't from what they learned.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, like, in your recollection of these other people that had these bizarre or different elements of craft or whatever, what do you remember that you still have with you when you enter a set?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it's actually a beautiful kind of a, I wish I could think of words.
Guest:It's one of the most awful things.
Guest:You can do it.
Guest:I have so much compassion for myself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:For what, for my journey over the years with this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because what I've come to realize is that I do know what I'm doing.
Guest:I know it in a part of myself that is wordless.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's okay with me now when it wasn't back then.
Marc:Well, that's a self-acceptance thing.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:But I didn't have that then.
Guest:I went through a lot of shenanigans between whenever that was, 1982.
Marc:In college, in undergrad.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:To now, to realize I do know what I'm doing.
Guest:I do know what I'm doing.
Guest:And I have no desire any longer to be able to put a pin in it and exactly explain it to anyone, including myself.
Marc:No, I think that's important.
Marc:I just had a conversation with my brother about it.
Marc:At some point, you have to accept yourself for all of it and then say, well, that might not get fixed, but I'm okay with it.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Guest:I also happen to believe, by the way, that the sooner you're able to say, I'm all right with it, it starts to unravel a little bit on its own.
Marc:Oh, you mean like fixing it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It starts to fix itself.
Guest:Exactly right.
Guest:You just leave it alone.
Guest:If it's going to untangle or if it's meant to, it will.
Guest:But you've got to walk away from it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You can't sit there.
Marc:You can't be in this perpetual state of like, I've got to work on this.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And suddenly you turn around and you realize, holy crap.
Guest:Look at this.
Guest:thing now that i'm able to do or this this sense of uh calm that comes over me now when it never used to in this certain circumstance i think that should that comes naturally from experience but not only experience but doing something successfully that's it unfortunately like if things aren't working out for you it's a harder oh yes a little harder to accept yourself if no one else is accepting you
Guest:And I want to send that out to the airwaves.
Guest:You can only accept yourself if you're accepted by everyone else first.
Marc:Yeah, that's a greeting.
Marc:It's a card.
Marc:Yes, Walmart.
Marc:So were there other people in your undergrad that went on to be successful actors and actresses?
Guest:i'm trying to think of the people i i was uh accepted into suny purchase one of 30 people you had audition yes um and there were 10 women and 20 no yeah 10 women and 20 men yeah my friend matt malloy yeah was in my company with me at purchase and he still works um other than that i don't i don't know if anyone else does and that's the god's honest truth and i
Guest:It's a tough racket.
Guest:Man, but the thing is also, I had nothing to fall back on.
Guest:It wasn't like, oh, I'll go do this thing.
Guest:I was like, no, this was it.
Marc:After a certain point, there isn't.
Guest:I know that feeling.
Guest:This was, yeah.
Marc:I mean, like in college, you could do, you know, but like what kept you going?
Marc:I mean, like did you start working right out of school?
Guest:Well, I did get a job where I had to be on set the day after I graduated.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I thought, what's everybody talking about?
Guest:This is easy.
Guest:This is so easy.
Guest:I went straight to set and then didn't work for five years after that.
Guest:So it was a movie called Sweet Lorraine.
Guest:And it was glorious.
Guest:It was so exciting.
Guest:You thought you were in.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:You thought this is it.
Guest:My agent said to me, are you sitting down?
Guest:When I got this thing, she said, you're getting paid.
Guest:$2,000 a week.
Guest:And I literally almost, I felt the color drain from my face.
Guest:I was able to pay off part of a student loan.
Guest:I mean, huge money when you're just starting out.
Guest:It's a constant preoccupation.
Guest:And this was huge, a huge piece of it.
Guest:But no, it didn't continue like that.
Marc:How was that movie?
Marc:I didn't see that movie.
Marc:Was it a small movie?
Guest:It was a very small movie.
Guest:Steve Gomer was his name.
Guest:Gosh, let's see.
Guest:Maureen Stapleton was in it.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So did you have a nice part?
Guest:Yeah, it was about a bunch of kids who worked at a Catskill resort.
Guest:I mean, so much of this stuff is circular in my life.
Guest:It's almost freaky.
Guest:But yes, and Maureen Stapleton owned the place, and the hotel was called Sweet Lorraine.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:So that's what that was.
Marc:And she was an old pro.
Marc:That must have been something.
Guest:She was really amazing, just beautiful, and I'd been a fan of hers forever.
Guest:And I didn't want to geek out, so I was very careful to keep a distance.
Guest:And it's such a funny thing I do, because when I'm so...
Guest:overwhelmed with feeling of respect for someone, I distance myself further because I'm embarrassed.
Guest:So they think you're an asshole.
Guest:So they think I'm an asshole.
Guest:So they think I'm this cold, narcissistic asshole.
Guest:I can't control any of that.
Marc:Who does she think she is over there?
Guest:She doesn't even say good morning to me, and the truth is I'm apoplectic.
Marc:Paralyzed, yeah.
Marc:I think I have that too.
Marc:I mean, I talk to a lot of people in here, and I never keep in touch.
Marc:I don't know if I'm supposed to, but there are people like...
Guest:You know, this is a very strange thing that you do also here.
Guest:It's very intimate between two people who don't know each other.
Guest:And then when it ends, it's not like you've actually put in the time to get to where you pretend to be during this podcast.
Marc:No, I think so.
Marc:I mean, I think it's a genuine thing.
Guest:Yes, I agree.
Marc:And sometimes things happen.
Marc:But, you know, I just have to leave it there.
Marc:It's not like I thought that me and Neil Young were going to be hanging out or anything.
Guest:Neil Young sat in this chair?
Marc:He did.
Guest:Holy crumb.
Marc:President Obama sat in this chair.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Somebody told me that.
Guest:Holy mackerel.
Marc:There's a picture right there.
Guest:This?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh my God.
Marc:The same orange chair.
Guest:Oh my God.
Marc:Him and I aren't hanging out.
Marc:I don't call him.
Marc:I think that was a miscalculation.
Marc:I meet people who I'm in awe of.
Marc:And then what happens to me,
Marc:after a little bit of talking to them, it's like you realize like, oh shit, they're just people.
Marc:And that's usually true.
Marc:It doesn't mean that they might not be assholes or whatever, but they are painfully human 99% of the time.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I think we forget that when you're in a work situation.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:You don't want to, like how has that happened to you?
Marc:Like what was another, what was the situation where you were just like, you know, beside yourself that you were working with somebody and you couldn't deal with it?
Guest:Oh, goodness.
Guest:Let's see.
Guest:Well, you know, it was not terribly long ago.
Guest:I was actually working with Louis again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And John Malkovich was on set.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:You know, I wanted to say all the things I wanted to say, like Bomb and Gilead.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was one of the first things I saw.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Laurie Metcalf.
Guest:And at a certain point when she finished her monologue, I realized I was perched on top of the seat in front of me.
Guest:For Louis, you mean?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:All these things you kind of want to tell John Malkovich about your early experience with all the Steppenwolf guys and burn this.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then I just think, really, does he need to hear that?
Guest:You know, is that going to change his day or somehow make it easier to pass the time with him?
Guest:So I say nothing.
Marc:But you know as an actress that, yes, yes, he needs to hear that.
Marc:And yes, it might change his day.
Marc:It's never, when a peer comes up to you and says, like, I think you were a genius in that thing.
Marc:Are you like, no, I don't need to hear that?
Guest:i don't know i have a weird experience i have a weird relationship with that stuff really it's kind of like you don't believe it i want to it's so hard to explain but like all right this is what's messed up i would love to read it somewhere yeah uh john malkovich said about right there was a scene then i can be alone with my reaction to it right right but if he comes face to face and says that and i say oh my god thank you so much and i just i feel like i come across like a snotty
Marc:so you jerk or something something about having to accept the compliment in the moment yeah well that makes me very uncomfortable sure i i understand that so i'm glad we're putting this out in the world if any you know peers have good things to say about you they should maybe tell your friend no no email it or put it in a guy at columbia university that comey contacted yeah and get it out in the news media that's right that's right that's the way everything gets out in the news apparently yeah yeah
Marc:Well, that's interesting because that means that there's some part like I guess there's no I guess it's hard to be like you're you're you are a gracious person, but you're not sure that you're communicating that.
Guest:Well, it's like when you said you don't really know much about me.
Guest:I'm so glad to hear that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:When I first I love to feel like when I meet someone, they're actually meeting me and they don't have a ton of.
Guest:backstory so that they've already made some sort of judgment about who I am or what it'll be like to be with me or whatever.
Guest:Or that you thought I might be... Boundary.
Guest:Boundary.
Guest:Very bound.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:Well, you are.
Marc:But it's good.
Marc:It's healthy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But not if it makes people feel something about me before they've actually met me.
Marc:But that's a problem because like, you know, and I've had this issue before where, you know, I like I'm very familiar with some of your work.
Marc:I mean, I just when I was on set for Glow,
Marc:You know, in the downtime, I rewatch the entire Sopranos.
Guest:Holy mackerel.
Marc:Like back to like every day, like two, three episodes a day.
Guest:That's crazy talk.
Guest:What are you going to do on set?
Guest:I got to do something.
Guest:Watch It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.
Guest:That's really funny.
Marc:No, I know.
Guest:I'm just saying.
Guest:I'm just saying.
Marc:But so people are coming at you with a very significant relationship with a character.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you make assumptions.
Marc:You're like, I've watched enough of that character to know that some of that stuff must really be her.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:Right?
Guest:That's right.
Guest:I mean, parking lots in New Jersey.
Guest:I pulled up in some mall.
Guest:Five different versions of Carmella came running up to me.
Guest:The nails.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I can't believe it.
Guest:We're having a poll party this weekend.
Guest:I would so love it if you could come.
Uh-huh.
Guest:And realizing how... And one woman said, I recognize you with your disguise.
Guest:Because I had jeans and a t-shirt on.
Guest:And realized how completely bored they would be with the person that I actually am.
Guest:So, you know what I mean?
Guest:It's just a funny position to be in.
Guest:Thank God.
Marc:Thank God on some level.
Guest:On some level.
Marc:I suppose, yeah.
Marc:No, but that's funny because that's going to happen for the rest of your life.
Guest:I know it.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And you know, I don't want to sound anything like ungrateful.
Guest:I am still pinching myself that I have the opportunities I have.
Guest:There's a lot of stuff surrounding it that I had not anticipated.
Marc:But I think that unlike some people, the type of work that you're doing and the type of television you're doing, a lot of people can't ever transcend certain roles.
Marc:But I think that happened more in network television and comedic characters.
Marc:But even James, rest his soul, I saw him...
Marc:on stage in Gods of Carnage, right?
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I had to- Of course.
Marc:You had to sit there and go like, it's not Tony.
Marc:It's not Tony.
Marc:It's not Tony.
Marc:And it was a totally different role.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes, he also has a physical being that's hard to escape from.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I had all the hairs, the hair, the nail, the jewelry, the costumes were so much a part of who this woman was.
Guest:It was easier for me to escape and harder for him.
Marc:Yeah, I got to watch that last one that was released posthumously with Julia Louis-Dreyfus.
Guest:Enough said.
Guest:I've talked about that a million times, how grateful I was that at least once people got to see him for the very regular guy that he was.
Guest:That was the closest I had ever seen him portray to his real self.
Guest:It's a great, great, great movie, and he's so good in it.
Marc:Yeah, it was so sad.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So you didn't work for five years after the first- Sweet Lorraine.
Marc:Sweet Lorraine?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So what'd you do?
Marc:Just freak out?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Honestly, I really did.
Marc:Were you auditioning?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I had an agent.
Guest:Oh, you know, I could sit here and tell you all these stories, but I waitressed.
Guest:I was in New York-
Marc:In the city?
Marc:Where were you living?
Guest:I've been living in the West Village for about 600 years at this point.
Guest:I moved in in 80... Same place you live in?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:Each job, I got a bigger house.
Guest:But they're all within a three-block radius of each other.
Guest:But no, I... So you live kind of by Louie.
Guest:Yes, actually, I don't live far from him.
Guest:But I never really had enough money to live there until I did, which is really nice.
Guest:But I'm very much a homebody, so I tend to stay in the same place.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:Look at this place.
Guest:No, it's fantastic.
Guest:It's what a life is.
Guest:It's the things you surround yourself with.
Marc:Isn't that weird?
Marc:See, that's another thing about accepting yourself is that like, you know, so what if I, you know, just because you have money doesn't mean you have to buy shit.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:I just, I moved out of this last place that I was in.
Guest:I moved to Tribeca for a short spell.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the place was just frigging huge.
Guest:And I just, at a certain point, I thought, what am I doing?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just because I can't afford this.
Guest:Is this really where I want to live?
Guest:And the answer was no.
Guest:It was like a loft?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a loft, like a two story loft.
Guest:And it was just me and my two kids living in this place.
Guest:And like my bedroom was upstairs and their bedroom was about six miles away.
Guest:It was like down the stairs and way down the hallway.
Guest:And I thought, what am I doing?
Marc:That was it?
Marc:That was it.
Marc:I moved.
Marc:To a cozy place.
Guest:To a much cozier place in the West Village.
Marc:So for five years you waitressed, you did odd jobs, you did what?
Guest:It was probably longer than five years.
Guest:But yes, I waitressed.
Guest:I waitressed and waitressed and waitressed.
Marc:But were you doing theater?
Marc:I would do anything.
Marc:Off the grid theater?
Guest:That's right.
Guest:I would do anything I could get my hands on.
Guest:Backstage magazine, show business magazine.
Guest:So you just go to cold calls.
Guest:Go to cold calls.
Guest:And I got to the point where I started to look at them as opportunities just to perform.
Guest:Try out a new monologue.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Were you taking classes?
Guest:At one point I took a class, but I really just wanted to work.
Guest:I had taken four years of conservatory classes.
Guest:Undergrad.
Guest:Undergrad.
Guest:And I kind of wanted to just do stuff at that point.
Guest:So it ended up being like classes, all these sort of very off-the-radar things.
Marc:But that's good because you get into a situation with that where...
Marc:It was sort of self-preserving in a way because there are people that go to classes forever.
Marc:That's what they do.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And you get really good at it.
Guest:Well, that was the same thing as in college.
Guest:I didn't want to be able to identify all the different things I did to make a moment feel real.
Guest:I just wanted to do it.
Guest:I just wanted to keep doing it.
Marc:And ultimately, a director just expects you to do it.
Marc:They're not going to deconstruct your process.
Guest:They're not interested in their eyes to the upper right to access a phone number.
Marc:However you got to do it.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Whatever tricks you got to play on yourself.
Guest:That's exactly it.
Marc:To get to where you need to be.
Guest:And they're all unspoken.
Guest:Like, none of them have language.
Guest:They're just very quiet, little private insanities.
Marc:Well, some people have real, like, you know, some people I've talked to, you know, do have some kind of, you know, consistent way of doing things.
Guest:Maybe.
Marc:In their head.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like, if you're going to, like, I talked to somebody, I think it was Paul Dano.
Marc:He's like, he did some animal work for his last...
Marc:You can laugh out loud.
Guest:I'm not laughing.
Guest:What are you talking about?
Guest:I think that's amazing.
Guest:I have nothing but respect for people who work in different ways.
Guest:It's not my thing.
Guest:One of the things I loved about Jim Gandolfini, we never sat down and talked about these people.
Guest:There was none of this.
Guest:I know how I come across sounding, and I'm aware of that, and I'm a little self-conscious all of a sudden.
Guest:But I think this goes back to my college stuff.
Guest:Jim and I didn't know.
Guest:I remember when we were picked up for the second season of Sopranos, he said,
Guest:Well, we're picked up.
Guest:I don't know what the hell we did, but apparently we got to do it again.
Guest:And I thought, that's the man I want to work with.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We don't know.
Guest:I didn't know.
Guest:We didn't know.
Marc:Do people really have those conversations?
Marc:I mean, I've done.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Those backs.
Guest:Like, do you want to talk about their backstory?
Guest:And how many times people have said that to me?
Guest:And I don't want to sound disrespectful for people who work that way.
Guest:But I think I would be less inclined to be so snotty about it if I was able to say, no, actually, I don't.
Guest:I don't want to talk about their backstory.
Guest:But I'm still not there.
Yeah.
Marc:The character I played, they gave me this whole backstory, and I'm like, well, that's nice, but can I just see the script?
Guest:Well, that's how I do it, too.
Marc:Because ultimately, and this is the one thing that, out of all the things, I think, and I think what we're saying here is that some people have it and some people don't.
Marc:And you can, like acting, there is a lot of natural, there's a natural element to it.
Marc:Either you have the thing or you don't.
Guest:Right, that's right.
Marc:You can be on camera.
Marc:You can be in a play.
Marc:You can talk to a person and not know it's, you know, you don't pay attention to this shit.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You're not self-conscious.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:In that moment.
Marc:And you're not, why is there a guy with a camera two feet away from me?
Marc:You don't think about it.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:That's a gift.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:And for some people, they're actually more conscious and more aware in those moments than they are in their real life.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And that's, yeah.
Guest:And that's right.
Guest:And they don't know how they get there.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Why they're one of the few people who can get there.
Guest:I mean, there are some people who have had tremendous success in this industry.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Very famous, very rich, well-known people who you can tell all they want is to be taken seriously as an actor.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they work and they try and you see their performances and it makes me feel great compassion for them.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Because as far as I'm concerned...
Guest:they don't got it and it breaks my heart because they really want it and it's one of the few things you can't pay for you know just continue to do your action movies and stuff and be grateful for that right right you know yes not everybody gets to uh you know gets to have this sort of blessing curse that's right that's right and also the the point i was making is that like if you have that that confidence that you've grown to have yeah that you know the script is the script and the story should be there yes
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And also, let me figure out what the backstory is.
Guest:Unless I'm doing something that does not ring true to the writer, director, producer people, then you can say, you know what, actually, I thought she came from this, you know, and then let me know and I'll make an adjustment.
Guest:But if I'm not doing something that you're not unhappy with, don't give me more information than I can metabolize.
Marc:I think ultimately they usually do it to help you.
Marc:They think they're helping you, right?
Marc:I mean, it's not, you know, they're not setting you up.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Less is more.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And just as an actress, so if there's an issue, the director says, can you do that again, but don't try to play it this way.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Good.
Marc:That's fine.
Guest:That's perfect.
Guest:That's perfect.
Guest:That's what I'm here for.
Guest:But if you give me 40 pages of a backstory, I'm not going to read it.
Guest:Or if I do, I will show up deeply confused next time you see me.
Marc:i don't know what to do with it right unless it involves a hint of a minsk accent yeah well then hopefully i knew that well in advance and i declined the project you know what i mean yeah i can't i don't do that's yeah i i it has to be within your wheelhouse so what do you got to make yourself crazy or or you know something that you thought oh that'd be interesting i haven't had a chance to do that i'd love to try it yeah but accents isn't one of them
Guest:No, it might be.
Guest:I mean, I want a long lead time, but I'm very hard on myself.
Guest:So if I can't do it perfectly, I'm not going to do a half-assed thing, which is why I would need to know well in advance what I'm being asked to do.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Like put on 50 pounds or speak Russian.
Guest:Oh, I can do that by tomorrow, but that's another story.
Marc:So when did you start feeling like you were having success?
Marc:I mean, like when was it?
Guest:You know, I used to, I guess, I don't know, I never really thought about it at the time, but I didn't want to have to waitress.
Guest:You know, I got to the point where, because of the kind of brain I have, I was very good insofar as dealing with a million tables at once.
Guest:But don't ask me to talk to people as if they're human, like make conversation and make jokes with them.
Guest:I couldn't.
Guest:I was so miserably unhappy.
Guest:As a waitress.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, I couldn't do that.
Guest:So, ugh, I was awful.
Guest:Somebody threw a bunch of pennies at me once as my tip.
Guest:And I sort of thought, I have to remember this moment.
Guest:This is the pinnacle of my misery.
Marc:Yeah, it's a good sign.
Guest:And that's right.
Marc:It's time to leave.
Marc:That guy just made many wishes for me not to be a waitress.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And eventually I did.
Guest:I did have that moment where I thought, I don't know how.
Guest:I will continue to support myself.
Guest:But this is something I can't do anymore.
Guest:But I think what I wanted was to be able to pay my rent solely on my acting work.
Guest:That's what I considered, I guess, a success.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:No day job.
Guest:And that took a long time.
Guest:It took a long time.
Marc:When did it happen?
Marc:What was the job?
Guest:Gosh, I don't know.
Guest:I mean, I did a movie called Cost of Living, another independent movie.
Guest:I don't know when that was, 20-something years ago.
Guest:And that was when I decided I quit my waitressing job when I got home, and I didn't know how it would continue.
Guest:Something about that leap of faith, if you believe these sorts of things, and I do, that you put that out there, somehow it was all right.
Guest:And I think for a short spell, I did some work with a dear friend of mine, Lisa Kennedy, who does set work on movies and films.
Guest:She threw me onto a job for a while, so I was able to get some side work done.
Marc:with her on the other side of the business that's right exactly and then I was then it kind of kicked in and you know not wasn't living flamboyantly but I wasn't having to but that's nice that you got that gig you know because that's sort of like in the nature it's in the tradition of everybody has a job in the like the Shakespearean theater that we all we all take our we all do our part have you ever done Shakespeare
Guest:I'm afraid of it a little bit.
Guest:No, I haven't.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:I did it in college and I never got that little, you know, blink of confidence that I get when I'm doing something else where I feel like I got it and I understand it.
Marc:You got to harness that language.
Guest:And I think if I put enough time and effort into it, it might be something I could get to.
Guest:But there are so many good Shakespearean actors, you know, I'll let them do that.
Marc:Yeah, but it might be like it feels like something you maybe try.
Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I also did Will and Grace because I never thought I could understand.
Guest:I also did 30 Rock, too.
Guest:Because that is a genre I don't understand.
Marc:Just delivering jokes?
Guest:Something like that.
Guest:The patter?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But I had to make an entrance.
Guest:And Sean Hayes' character saw me and went like, ah!
Guest:And then ducked under the table.
Guest:And I thought, now, did I see him do that?
Guest:And is that an unusual thing?
Guest:Do I respond?
Guest:And I realized this is, I am out of my comfort zone here.
Guest:And I did, I remember thinking, if I did this more often, I know I could come to understand it, but I just, I didn't find it as interesting as the other stuff I was lucky enough to do.
Guest:That's right, because it's a... And I have nothing but respect for the people who can do these things beautifully, like Alec Baldwin and all of those people who are masters at what they do, but I am certainly... I was not.
Marc:It's a skill set.
Marc:It is a skill set.
Marc:And it doesn't have... It doesn't immediately have the depth...
Marc:in that moment.
Marc:It has something else.
Marc:Yeah, it's a patter.
Marc:It's like a lot of those things are joke.
Marc:It's a rhythm.
Marc:They're joke machines.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:And sometimes if you have a live audience.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You get the feedback right away.
Marc:Do you like to do comedy?
Marc:I do.
Guest:I do.
Marc:You've done some on stage.
Guest:I've done some on stage, but it's never been under the guise of being a comedy.
Guest:It's like Sopranos.
Guest:There's definitely funny stuff in there, but it's based on what's real.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But to get a laugh in a live audience is exciting, no?
Guest:Not really?
Guest:I'm trying to think if that's... You don't acknowledge it?
Guest:In plays.
Guest:In plays, yeah.
Guest:But my character doesn't hear it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know what you're talking about.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:You hear it.
Guest:You do hear it because you have to hear it because you have to take a beat before you deliver the next line.
Guest:So, yeah.
Marc:so that you became like there was a period there in new york where stage was working out for you yeah what was that play the side the side man i did a play called sideman my my my producer loves that play and he saw you in it and he knew he's like i don't this this woman is gonna this is she's the real deal wow like you know he like he can't like he it's in his mind when i talked to him today he's he's like that was amazing
Guest:Isn't that nice?
Guest:It was a long time ago, and to this day, it's still one of the, I think it's probably the most meaningful project I've worked on.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Why?
Marc:What made it that?
Guest:I was out of work.
Guest:I was on a bus and ran into Warren Light on that same bus.
Guest:He's the writer side man.
Guest:And he said, listen, I'm having a reading done of my play.
Guest:Marissa Tomei dropped out at the last minute.
Guest:She's not able to do it.
Guest:Can you just fill in for her and do this reading for me?
Guest:And that was the impetus for this whole thing.
Guest:We did a reading and the reading went well.
Guest:And then we ended up getting a production on 13th Street in Manhattan.
Guest:And then it went to Roundabout.
Guest:Then it went to Broadway.
Guest:Then it went to London.
Guest:I did this play in various incarnations for four years.
Guest:And it is still, I think, the richest film.
Guest:piece and character that I've ever had to play.
Marc:You played the spouse of a musician?
Guest:The spouse of a musician.
Guest:And she ages from like early 20s to 70s in the course of this thing.
Guest:And it's deep stuff.
Guest:Stuff I could relate to as my dad was a musician growing up.
Guest:And, you know, coming from an artistic family and, you know, dysfunction and all the stuff that everybody can relate to.
Marc:So it enabled you to connect all that.
Guest:A lot of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that must be that's satisfying.
Guest:Oh, deeply.
Guest:It's therapy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I have to say that from a selfish standpoint.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, this is not a totally, totally selfless thing that I do.
Marc:You know, of course not.
Guest:There's a reason you pick certain characters.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And there's nothing wrong with that.
Guest:No, I agree.
Marc:And then people think she's a genius.
Marc:It's sort of like, nah.
Guest:Actually, no.
Guest:All I know is I feel much better now.
Marc:If that's what happens when you're a genius, I'm good.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, God.
Marc:But you've got the opportunity to do The Sopranos while you were doing that.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was a terrible time.
Guest:I mean, I know that sounds crazy, but I...
Guest:We were about to be a big stage actress.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:It was about to go to Broadway.
Guest:It was about to open on Broadway, and I couldn't join it.
Guest:I couldn't take the play to Broadway.
Marc:How did you weigh that choice?
Guest:Well, money.
Guest:I was going to get paid, which in this day and age is not considered a tremendous amount of money, but to do the pilot of Sopranos...
Guest:Was going to completely wipe out my student loan.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Was going to get me out of my fifth floor walk up.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That was, you know, one teeny room in the West Village.
Guest:There were real life things to, and I was, I guess, in my early 30s.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And there were real life things to think about at this point.
Marc:But was there ever, because I mean, HBO wasn't what it is now in terms of, I mean, Sopranos made it this sort of art house that it is on some level in terms of how they handled television.
Guest:Yeah, I don't have that perspective on it, but I know it was early on in the series thing.
Marc:Well, that's what I mean, right?
Marc:It was a TV job.
Guest:Right, that's right.
Marc:And there must have been that battle inside yourself having so much success in the stage and being at the precipice of being a stage actress, which has this lofty credibility that you were like, what am I doing?
Marc:Did you have that?
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, you know, my memory is that I had been doing Sideman for such a long time.
Guest:And I know, certainly the more you continue to do something, the deeper and richer the character and the experience become.
Guest:But also, I had done it.
Guest:So my experience with it, I mean, I figured out who I thought this character was, and I had kind of fleshed it out enough to do a performance of it.
Guest:And here I was presented with this other character, completely different character.
Guest:And a substantial sum of money.
Guest:And I remember Warren Light, the writer, said to me, this is a TV thing.
Guest:You're really going to choose this TV thing over taking this thing to Broadway.
Guest:A mob show?
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:And I wasn't, you know, you're never really sure ever if you're doing whatever the right thing is.
Guest:But I was pretty clear at the moment what I had to do.
Guest:Also, my family didn't have money.
Guest:It wasn't like when things went bad, I could just fall back on.
Guest:No, I couldn't fall back on anything.
Guest:It was all me all the time.
Guest:So if I was able to take this big chunk of money and get some of that giant black cloud off of my head.
Marc:Why not?
Guest:Why not?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And if the stage thing was meant to be, it'll come back.
Guest:And as it turns out, it sort of did.
Guest:I did the pilot of Sopranos.
Guest:And I was able to join Sideman on Broadway.
Guest:Because the woman who was playing the character that I was playing got pregnant.
Marc:oh so i took over the role and continued it on broadway and then took it to london and all this i'll tell you stuff works out yeah stay out of the way do what you think is right do the make the best decision you can at the moment and move on yeah and when when soprano's doing that first season because it's interesting like you know when i think when having watched it fairly recently and i remember that it was exciting when it was on because you look forward to sunday you know like it was like it's gonna be on and you couldn't
Guest:So great.
Guest:I'm so glad to hear that.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:It was like it was something to do.
Marc:Like, you know, you built your day around it.
Marc:But like rewatching it, like some of that stuff between you and James was the thing that's interesting is that you say you didn't discuss a lot of things, but you were both so emotionally engaged that there was so much space there.
Marc:They afforded you all this space for things to sit there.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:That was big news in the day.
Guest:It might even still be.
Guest:When I remember some scene, he said, listen, there are no words in the scene.
Guest:You go, you get something out of the refrigerator, you go, you stand by him, you walk around.
Guest:Part of me is doing this thing thinking, I got to say something.
Guest:But that's what they wanted.
Guest:They wanted to let it breathe a little bit.
Guest:And I just had so much respect and gratitude for The Room to do that, which HBO always gave us.
Marc:Yeah, and you barely have that kind of room on stage.
Guest:No, that's exactly right.
Guest:Especially now.
Guest:In this day and age, you've got to keep them, you know.
Marc:Or in a movie.
Marc:Like, it was very unique like that.
Marc:I mean, because, like, he, you know, the two of you, with him, like, you know, God knows what emotions are running through him at any moment.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And how it shifted in his face.
Marc:And he did that weird, he had that weird thing he'd do where he'd just go into this blank stare thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was sort of like, what is going on?
Marc:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I remember it well.
Guest:Like it was yesterday.
Marc:So that character, what did you do to prepare for it?
Guest:Oh, I don't know.
Marc:No, but I mean like you put the hair on.
Marc:It's one of those things where they dressed you up and you're like, this is it.
Guest:You kind of look at yourself and you're like, yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:That's a big deal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, when I read the thing, I was like, oh, my God, of course, I know exactly who this woman was.
Guest:It was a no-brainer for me.
Guest:And at the same time, I was completely sure that I would never get cast.
Guest:Because, you know, in the way things go, they're going to get someone who looks like this.
Guest:Sort of the dark hair and dark skin, sort of more stereotypically Italian.
Guest:Or maybe that's my own prejudice.
Guest:But I am Italian, but I guess I'm not the first person you'd pick to play in Italian.
Yeah.
Guest:So there's a great sense of calm that comes over you when you're auditioning for something that you're absolutely sure you're not going to get.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's how I went into that.
Marc:Like you have nothing to lose.
Guest:You have nothing to lose.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was doing Oz at the time, too.
Guest:So I had a little bit of dough coming in.
Guest:I had a little bit of a steady-ish game.
Marc:And HBO knew you?
Guest:They knew who I was, yeah.
Right.
Marc:Boy, one environment, those two environments, one like very literally menacing and the other one menacing on different levels.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:A lot of darkness back in those days.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like I read because I don't know how anyone talks about like I'm sober myself.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:25 years I have this year.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:I'm coming up on 18.
Guest:Fantastic.
Guest:I didn't know that.
Guest:That's great.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:I was going to open the interview telling you I'm a little dry.
Marc:I feel a little... I need a meeting.
Guest:I understand.
Marc:I'm with you.
Marc:I'm a little brittle.
Guest:I hear you.
Guest:I hear you.
Guest:A little white knuckling going on.
Marc:Well, no, it's weird.
Marc:You know, you get to a certain point with it where I don't want to drink and it's not the list of solutions, but I'm not acting like a person that's living in the present.
Guest:I totally get it.
Guest:Letting go and letting God.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:The resentment thing.
Guest:Oh, I get it.
Marc:When did you get sober?
Marc:So 25 years ago.
Guest:Was it during The Sopranos?
Guest:It was.
Guest:Let me think.
Guest:It was before The Sopranos.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was doing a play.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Dating a crazy man.
Guest:And I had a horrible experience and woke up one morning and realized, oh, my God, I'm done.
Guest:I'm done.
Guest:I didn't know how it was going to pan out, but it really was as sort of miraculous as that.
Marc:And I've never looked back.
Marc:Did you know somebody who told you what to do?
Guest:I knew a lot of people.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I went to school with a lot of people at SUNY Purchase who are still my friends now who got sober before me.
Guest:And it just seemed like, how do you do that?
Guest:Drinking was such a big part of my life and my social life and my dating life.
Guest:But I saw them do it and I saw them turn into different people and they just walked me through it.
Marc:You do turn into a you turn into some better version of yourself.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:It's a weird thing.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:That, you know, this idea that people can't change.
Marc:There are some things that can change.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:You're always going to be you.
Marc:And there's always that panic because, you know, one of the one of the things I do with the podcast, if anyone emails me about questions about sobriety, I'll take it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I'll and I'll respond.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And I'll tell them what I did.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'll tell them what they they could do if they choose.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, you know, and then I hear back and they're like, well, I'm doing better.
Guest:Amazing.
Marc:It's the best.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:All you can do is tell them what you did.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Who the hell knows what will work for them, you know?
Marc:But also the amazing thing about, you know, that whole, the model.
Marc:And, you know, I don't, like, I try not to be too explicit.
Marc:I try to honor their tradition, but fuck it.
Marc:You know, there's a point where you're like, you know, that's some old-timey shit and I'm not a representative of the program, but it works for some people.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Marc:It's the only one that you got that, you know, you can go back to and, you know.
Marc:But there is something about connect when you're self self centered like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There's something about doing it that connects you to your empathy in a way that, you know, that is it was it was it's a miracle.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Just by listening to people's story in that context.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Guest:you're like oh my god you know like it's made me a better person emotionally in a lot of other ways yeah right part of being in this business i think was based on the experience i had seeing things as a kid movies and television and right theater yeah where i think oh my god that person understands me or they're going through what i've been through the i think what saves us every time is realizing we are not alone there's very little we can experience
Guest:someone else somewhere has not experienced that's totally true and then you're sitting in an aa meeting that's what you have right there all around you yeah people sitting with you saying i you know i used to drink to cover this shit up yeah but now i'm just going to talk about it right and and what they did while they were drinking that that can vary and sure there's some of those moments how bad it went before they could get out for sure but usually you don't judge it other than like oh i'm glad i didn't that's
Guest:I had spent a lot of that.
Guest:Like, man, I never got there.
Marc:Yeah, thank God.
Marc:I don't need to do that research.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I got it.
Marc:That's something that I don't do innately.
Guest:Gratitude?
Marc:Well, you said you're hard on yourself.
Marc:Does it come easily for you?
Guest:I'm hard on myself, but man, the gratitude that comes...
Guest:Floating out of my system is not something I even could have wished for.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It's beyond my comprehension.
Guest:I wasn't supposed to have this life.
Guest:I wasn't supposed to have these opportunities and just the abundance.
Guest:I hate the words that are coming out of my mouth.
Guest:I just don't know other ones.
Guest:I have these two magnificent kids.
Guest:I have money to live.
Guest:I can help people out when they need it.
Marc:It's great.
Guest:It's just beyond.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I feel like it wasn't meant for me on some level.
Guest:But what does that mean?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I can say those same things, you know, but then somehow or another I'll end it with, well, fuck that guy.
Guest:Yeah, no one better than you in that way.
Marc:Well, you've got a few more years of me.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:No, listen.
Guest:Wait till you see.
Guest:Wait till you see what happens next.
Marc:Well, I don't say it like I used to.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:I used to say it.
Marc:I know enough to keep it inside.
Marc:Maybe go to a meeting and deal.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So how many seasons of Sopranos did that happen?
Guest:We had six and a half, whatever that means.
Guest:So good.
Marc:And then you did a little theater in between things and movies.
Guest:I think I did Sideman and some movies, yeah, which I also was able to do between seasons.
Guest:You did Frankie and Johnny?
Guest:I did Frankie and Johnny at some point.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a big play.
Guest:That's a sweet play.
Guest:It was a very, very sweet play.
Marc:That's one of those ones that everyone does monologues from.
Guest:Is that right?
Marc:I think so, yeah.
Marc:I remember doing one in some class at some point in my life.
Marc:But you showed up at movies a lot here and there.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I have to say, for a long time when you play a mob wife, that's all the scripts you get for a very long time.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Did you fight against that?
Marc:Did you have to push back?
Guest:No, all you have to do is say no.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I mean, you knew you didn't want to be typecast forever.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And the only way to control that is to say no.
Guest:It's as simple as that.
Guest:And it may mean you don't work as often as you might have wanted to.
Guest:But...
Guest:You're the one controlling that.
Guest:And then I get a letter out of the blue from John Sayles.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Who says something, handwritten, who says something like, I don't really know your work.
Guest:I think he saw me in Laws of Gravity, this movie I did a gazillion years ago.
Guest:And I wrote this part for you in a movie that had nothing to do with anything I'd ever done before.
Guest:And I thought, man, somebody's looking out for me.
Guest:This is just somewhat a gift.
Marc:Which film was that?
Guest:Sunshine State.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:And beautiful, beautifully written.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had to have an accent, which I was thrilled about.
Guest:Which accent was it?
Guest:Southern.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Florida.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Georgia, Florida kind of accent.
Guest:And Timothy Hutton was in it.
Guest:And a lot of great actors.
Guest:It was so off the beaten track for me.
Marc:And this was after The Sopranos.
Guest:It was like...
Guest:between seasons uh-huh uh-huh uh anyway it was just one of the many many many tremendous like just handed to me gifts and it was uh and it was a great experience tremendous a tremendous experience i loved every second of it oh you were in random hearts i fucking love that movie yes i did too i was in it really very briefly was that sydney pollack yes it was yes it was
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:People don't make too many grown-up movies anymore.
Marc:There's certain movies, and for some reason I was thinking about Random Hearts recently, where it's like, we're the movies that are sort of sophisticated, adult-themed.
Guest:It doesn't seem to be happening there these days.
Guest:It seems like it's TV.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So how'd you get Nurse Jackie?
Guest:Nurse Jackie I got because we finished Sopranos and I went around with agents and managers and we took meetings with the heads of networks and everyone was like, yes, yes, that's very exciting.
Guest:And then nothing seemed to happen.
Guest:At some point, I got a script called Nurse Mona.
Guest:And it was, I got a, my friend Matt Malloy, who I mentioned earlier, he's an actor, a dear friend of mine.
Guest:He lives in Venice.
Guest:And he sent me a script.
Guest:He said, I know, listen, this was written by my next door neighbor.
Guest:I was like, oh, please, Matt, don't do this to me.
Guest:Evan Dunsky.
Guest:And he said, but really, I think this is good.
Guest:You should read it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was Nurse Mona.
Guest:And I totally responded to this character.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She was very, very dark.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Very different from what it ended up being.
Guest:But I kind of, I liked it.
Guest:And we talked about it a bit.
Guest:And then I forget what happened next.
Guest:We kind of put it aside.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I think it was maybe a little too dark.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:At some point, Liz Brixius and Linda Wallen got a hold of the script and made it sort of lighter and funnier.
Guest:Showtime signed on.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And changed it to Nurse Jackie.
Guest:And that's how it kind of continued on.
Marc:But the character, like, so what was it in the newer version that took the edge off?
Marc:Because it's still a little dark.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, she did things like, first of all, she had, in the original version, had like an aura.
Guest:No.
Guest:She was able to read the auras of other people.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Is that a good person or a bad person?
Guest:She used to steal something from everyone who died.
Marc:Oh, so it was a kooky character trait that might not have made her sympathetic.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And also, you know, she kept talking about, well, you know, having dinner with my husband and blah, blah, blah, whatever.
Guest:And then it's, I think the last episode, the last scene in the pilot is you see her and she's eating a meal and talking.
Guest:But I think the camera pulls back and there's nobody there.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:So she has this sort of fantasy boyfriend husband.
Guest:But anyway, it was very scary and weird and dark.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I kind of love that.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:But also I thought that people said, are they going to want to hang with this woman every week?
Marc:I just don't know.
Marc:Well, that's an interesting question about what drives you in that way, because there are points in The Sopranos where that character is very aware of her struggle to not be aware of the depth of the horrible world she is in.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, you know, how do you continue on that line where you I mean, you're not obviously not thinking like, well, people got to like this character, but the character is challenging in the sense that she's in this darkness.
Marc:She's not just she's part of it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yet.
Marc:Yet.
Marc:That's her life.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So in Nurse Jackie, too, that like, you know, there's a sort of.
Marc:The connection, I'm just wondering, the darkness thing is that some people are fucked up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And yet that doesn't mean they're all fucked up.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:They're not monsters.
Marc:Even if they are monsters, maybe they are redeemable.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right?
Guest:I think you need to find the thing that they wake up for in the morning.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Carmela loved her family.
Guest:She was all about her family.
Guest:It was legitimate love.
Guest:Her version of love was the husband and the kids.
Guest:And the rest of the stuff, her place in society, what her husband does for a living, you find compartments to put them in to make it okay.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Everybody does.
Guest:I think the extent to which you have, I mean, how many compartments you have is about how screwed up you are.
Marc:But the fact is, everyone does that, but not everyone's running a concentration camp.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, I'd love to think that if that's the case, that little compartment won't stay compartmentalized very long.
Marc:Can't live with it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:So eventually it will overtake the part of you that pretends everything's all right.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I think that's how you have a society.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:But I think Jackie was doing the same sort of thing.
Guest:What she loved was taking care of people.
Guest:Right.
Guest:This was legitimate.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She really did want to help these people by taking from the rich and giving to the poor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But she was also, you know, a frigging mess, a drug addict and everything else.
Guest:And it depends on, you know, what the ratio is to a good person, bad person.
Marc:And, you know, and also, you know, having been, you know, somebody who has addiction issues, it's sort of like, you know, at some point you get into your mind, well, this is how I have to deal.
Marc:This is how I deal.
Guest:You don't even make the sentence.
Guest:It's there in your head, but you won't even allow... You just... Yeah, you're behaving without thinking.
Guest:So much of that show, I was just frigging falling to my knees in gratitude that I just... This was not me anymore, but it was also...
Guest:It's hugely satisfying and therapeutic to be in the behavior without the consequences.
Marc:Tell me about it.
Marc:I just had to smoke and do blow for 10 episodes.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:Comes right back.
Guest:That's funny, oddly enough.
Guest:Comes right back.
Guest:Like it was yesterday.
Marc:Yeah, it's like riding a bike.
Guest:People would say, you know, it doesn't make you want to.
Guest:I was like, no, God, no.
Guest:It makes me so, so grateful.
Marc:Smoking those fake cigarettes.
Marc:The worst.
Guest:They're awful.
Marc:And snorting whatever the fuck it was.
Guest:Were you actually snorting something?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, I think it was, you know.
Guest:Vitamin B or something.
Marc:It was something that they put in blow, but it wasn't a blow.
Marc:It was the thing that made you mad when you bought blow.
Marc:Bring it on over.
Marc:What the fuck is in this stuff?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:It's the stuff that you do on the movie set.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:Sorbitol or Manitol or one of them maybe.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:Oh my gosh.
Guest:Yucky.
Marc:Yeah, it was yucky.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the ritual of both of them, of smoking and, like, I don't think, like, I was very grateful that I knew how to smoke.
Marc:I had to smoke half my life.
Guest:I'm with you on that.
Marc:You know, and that, like.
Guest:You watch an actor who doesn't know how to smoke.
Guest:It's the worst.
Guest:Oh my God, it's the first thing you notice.
Guest:Like, it takes me right out of the movie.
Marc:Right, yeah, because I was very specific with them.
Marc:I was like, I need a flip top box because that's where I'm going to put my bindle in.
Marc:I'm going to do it with a key or a pen top because I'm not sharing it.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:And it's so funny because Carly and Liz, when I told them this about the character, they were both standing there and they were like, we're so glad you're here.
Guest:Oh, those ladies.
Guest:I love them so much.
Marc:He knows.
Marc:Well, you did one of Liz's plays, right?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I did a play called The Madrid.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I was relatively new to parenting at the time.
Guest:And it's a story of a woman who gets up and leaves her family.
Guest:And I found that interesting.
Marc:Because you were like so in.
Guest:I was so deep in this parenting thing and totally overwhelmed by it.
Guest:So it was another way to kind of work through that stuff without actually having to do it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Thank God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And people were not all that open to it.
Marc:They didn't like the play?
Guest:Yeah, it was not totally well received.
Guest:Too dark?
Guest:It was too dark.
Guest:Nobody could understand how someone could leave their family.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Do they look at the news?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do they look at life?
Guest:Or they weren't willing to see it on stage.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Whatever it was.
Marc:It's funny.
Marc:Well, theater audience, the New York theater audience is a difficult thing.
Guest:Especially with a new play.
Guest:That's why you don't see so many of them.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:And it's like it's interesting now because I've talked to Annie Baker.
Marc:I've talked to Stephen Karam, you know, like these newer playwrights.
Marc:And sort of like and I've done what I can to get this generation to the theater.
Marc:But really, when you go to the theater in New York, you're like, oh, my God.
Marc:How old are these people?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's not that it's bad, but it is the theater audience.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it should be more important and relevant to people.
Guest:It was like Nathan Lane said about Manhattan Theater Club Sleeps 400.
Guest:You know, the hearing aids going off and, you know, oh, my God, I got to use the bathroom.
Guest:In the middle, I swear to God, in the middle of a scene.
Guest:You just get used to it.
Guest:But, you know, something's got to shift there.
Guest:If there are to be new voices, there's got to be a place where they can be heard.
Marc:Well, you work with the 52nd Street.
Guest:52nd Street Project.
Marc:I mean, that seems to be very proactive along those lines.
Marc:Can you explain to me what that is?
Guest:That's more about helping grow a sense of self in some of these inner city kids who may not find that at home or in a school environment.
Guest:These Hell's Kitchen kids that go after school to this 52nd Street project.
Guest:They have help with homework and they also have classes, playwriting and play crafting.
Guest:And now they have like filmmaking and I think dance.
Guest:And I mean, it's...
Guest:It is a good, on every level, good organization.
Guest:And I got involved because I saw my dear friend, Kevin Gere, who passed away all of like a couple of months ago.
Guest:I saw him in a play.
Guest:He was in Sideman with me.
Guest:But I saw him in a play at 52nd Street Project where he had a head of plastic hair with like little curls that come up with this.
Guest:And he was playing some little girl or something in this theater.
Guest:I myself have played broccoli.
Guest:I played a deer a couple of times.
Guest:I played flowers, characters.
Marc:These are plays that the kids write.
Guest:The kids write them and adults perform them.
Guest:And you are not allowed to fix the grammar.
Guest:You're not allowed to make the sentences make sense so that you can say them.
Marc:But these are big actors.
Guest:These are grown-up actors and little kids writing them.
Guest:Kids who aren't writers.
Marc:And you play them straight.
Guest:You play them straight.
Guest:Never have I seen funnier or more engaging or more honest theater in the city.
Guest:Anywhere.
Marc:Again, my producer and my business partner, he went.
Marc:He's gone.
Marc:And he loves it.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:He's a big theater nerd.
Guest:Not only that, you see these little kids who are, I don't, you know, they didn't grow up in these, you know, theater families.
Guest:And there they are sitting on a little, you know, foam core desk watching their play come to life with, you know, Frances McDormand and Billy Crudup.
Guest:And, you know, and you see their faces like, it's just so beautiful.
Guest:It's such a beautiful, life affirming organization.
Guest:That's unbelievable.
Guest:Thrilled to be involved in any way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you make time for it.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:I mean, they make time for me as far as I'm concerned.
Marc:And it must be just so interesting to see which kids are are, you know, utilizing fantasy in which you're actually trying to fix their home environment.
Guest:There's a lot of heavy stuff.
Guest:There's guns.
Guest:There's drug abuse.
Guest:You know that these kids are not trying to make deep plays.
Guest:They're writing what they know.
Marc:How old are they?
Guest:I'm going to make this up, like 10 to 13 or something.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Or 9 to something like that.
Marc:And these are like, how long are the plays usually?
Guest:They're short.
Guest:They're like 10, 12-minute plays.
Guest:And in an evening, you'll see 10 of them or something like that.
Marc:And then after, do you talk to the kids?
Marc:For sure.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Well, beforehand, you sit down and the kids will interview you.
Guest:I remember I sat down for one, the most recent one I did.
Guest:He said, okay, are you gay?
Guest:And I was like, no.
Guest:Do you like to sing?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And it goes like that.
Guest:So they end up basing a play.
Marc:So you get hooked up with them before they actually write the play.
Guest:Then they go off to this weekend where everyone goes away to some sort of house, some home that someone has donated for a weekend, writes these plays with these grown up playwriting helper people.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Come back and give them to you.
Guest:And you're like, holy crap, I'm playing a broccoli.
Yeah.
Guest:It's fantastic.
Marc:That's a first?
Guest:It's fantastic.
Marc:How old are your kids?
Guest:12 and 9.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So they're coming into it.
Guest:They're people.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, they're people now.
Guest:Shocking.
Marc:And are they interested in the arts?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:I think my daughter wouldn't mind being a pop star.
Guest:She's 12?
Guest:She's nine.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:You have a daughter and a son?
Guest:Yes, and my son is 12, Anderson.
Guest:But yeah, so Macy I think would like to sing in front of an auditorium full of people, but I don't know how that will pan out.
Marc:Yeah, and you love being a mother?
Guest:I love it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, bar nothing.
Guest:And the most satisfying.
Guest:It's like everybody says.
Guest:I had not anticipated how deep it would be.
Marc:And how did you get into it?
Guest:Well, no, I had a number of relationships in a row where it got to the point of marriage and kids.
Guest:And so the idea, I never thought I'd be a parent.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Came from a crazy family and a broken family and all that.
Yeah.
Guest:It was never really all that interesting to me.
Guest:And in these relationships, I started to talk about, we started talking about having kids.
Guest:And the idea kind of germinated in me.
Guest:The relationship didn't pan out.
Guest:And then I got involved with someone else.
Guest:It was marriage and kids and things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then we split up.
Guest:And I thought the kid thing didn't go away.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:So I was as surprised as anybody else.
Guest:I thought, holy shit, it's time to be a mom.
Guest:But I was single.
Guest:So I started paperwork for adoption.
Guest:And that was 13 years ago.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:It took about a year for them to hand me my son, my brand new son.
Guest:And then three years after that, they handed me my brand new daughter.
Guest:And that has been my life ever since.
Marc:That's beautiful.
Yeah.
Marc:it's tremendous and you don't have to deal with relationship stress on top of how people keep a relationship going and parenting i just don't i don't know i i they're both so challenging and i really i'm not a good multitasker it's so funny that like you say that because like i'm one of those people like i don't have kids i've been married twice and i come from chaos and and you know uh you know boundaryless selfish parents and whatever and
Marc:They didn't divorce until I was in my 30s.
Marc:But like I never think about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like and I've been with women who was like, let's have a kid.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, yeah.
Marc:But there's part of me that there's nothing wrong with that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, you know, you do have to deal with that life, you know, but like I don't think I was cut out for it.
Marc:I never like when I was a kid, I never thought like, you know, I want a family.
Marc:I just thought like I'd like to feel good about myself.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:I mean, it's also hard if you grow up in a family where perhaps you weren't, you know, you weren't grown the way a lot of kids are and you weren't necessarily given everything you need when you needed it.
Guest:And so you grow up feeling all the time is my experience.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I got it for me.
Guest:What about me?
Guest:I need to get another massage.
Guest:I got to get a juice.
Guest:You know, I need a, you know.
Marc:So.
Marc:Something to fix it.
Guest:So who am I to take on someone else who needs stuff all the time?
Guest:And after four million years of therapy and many years of sobriety, I felt like, yeah, I think I'm all right.
Guest:I think I'm all right.
Guest:I think I can.
Marc:And you could do it.
Guest:And you know, I don't do it perfectly.
Guest:God knows what the messes I've made.
Marc:But you found a situation where you took it on yourself and you made it happen.
Guest:I did make it happen and 12 years have gone by and I have these people who are growing into people right before my eyes.
Marc:It's amazing.
Guest:It's absolutely amazing.
Marc:And in this movie, you play like a mother with like difficult kids.
Marc:The one that I just watched.
Guest:Landline?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Difficult.
Guest:Well, grownups at this point too.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But like that age, that must another cautionary tale I imagine dealing with the younger.
Marc:Terrifying.
Marc:What's that woman's name?
Guest:Abby Quinn.
Marc:The actress Abby Quinn.
Marc:You know, she plays, what is she, like 14, 15?
Guest:She's a little older than that.
Guest:I think she was like 17 or 18.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:But that, like, you know, on some level as a parent, you're like, God forbid.
Marc:But it might happen.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I can't even talk about it.
Guest:I mean, I'm pretty sane about most things, but all that stuff, I know.
Guest:I've engaged the help of my...
Guest:team of dear friends godparents yeah yeah and therapists yeah listen i'm gonna need to step back from this a little drug alcohol thing and children i'm gonna need a lot of help with that because i i'm my skew is you know i'm i'm off but also i'm so concerned about it
Marc:Yeah, right, right.
Marc:You're preemptively concerned.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:To the point where you're going to end up throwing them right into it.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:My brother, he's got three kids.
Marc:It's the same.
Marc:Yeah, there's this like, what do we got to do?
Marc:I feel like this moment is like, I feel they're going in that direction.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:It's right.
Guest:And I know I need to back off.
Guest:And so I've said to my friends, can you just keep an eye on this, please?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also there's another program.
Guest:And that's where I am right now, where I get home like, oh, yeah, I could look into that again.
Guest:That wouldn't be the worst thing.
Marc:A little detachment might not hurt.
Guest:You're absolutely right.
Marc:Right?
Marc:But the movie, I thought that was great.
Marc:Jenny's great.
Marc:She's so great.
Marc:And you get to work with John Turturro.
Guest:Who I've known socially for many years, and we'd never gotten to work together before.
Guest:So that was a big treat.
Marc:Because he seems like a similar actor than you.
Guest:I think so, too.
Guest:Although he's also got a director's eye, which I definitely don't have.
Guest:So he was always like, how much room are you getting?
Guest:And are you going to do this shot, too?
Guest:And I just can't do this.
Marc:Obviously, I'm not a real actor in this sense.
Marc:But there's some people on set are like, is this my shot?
Marc:I don't even know when it's my fucking shot.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Same here.
Guest:I don't know where the cameras are half the time.
Guest:And I prefer that.
Marc:They just know that's your camera, and they're working it.
Marc:And I'm like, do I need to know?
Marc:Is that part of this job?
Guest:But that brings me back to the college thing.
Guest:If you don't know it, and you're doing a good job, then you don't need to know it.
Marc:Let them do it.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:But then you watch someone like Louis, who writes, directs, and stars in all these things, where he's like this thing I just finished, where he does a scene, and I'm talking, and he's talking.
Guest:Is it a movie?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You think.
Guest:Yeah, I think it is.
Guest:And he'll do something, you know, and he'll finish the scene and he'll go, cut.
Guest:All right.
Guest:So, you know what we need to do?
Guest:And he can completely come out of this.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That is something I can't do.
Guest:That quick jumping back and forth.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It took him a while.
Marc:It took him a while.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You know, like, you know, he's definitely like evolved as an actor and he's evolved as a director and as a, you know, a comic.
Marc:I think he always, you know, wanted to be a director.
Marc:His short films, I don't know how far back he went with looking at his... No.
Marc:Like he used to do these short movies that were really bizarre.
Marc:Then he did like...
Marc:Two features like when we were kids almost.
Marc:When he was in his 20s.
Guest:Oh my gosh.
Marc:He did Caesar salad was his first feature and it's like insane.
Guest:I'm laughing already.
Marc:It's insane.
Guest:Really?
Marc:And then he did another feature in black and white about a photographer ostensibly about a photographer that got very weird.
Marc:But he did shoot features.
Guest:I didn't know that.
Marc:When he was a kid.
Guest:So he's been doing this a long time.
Marc:yeah yeah well it's like people have said i'm sure they've said it to you too like so how do you want to direct you want to write like i don't i get anxiety just that's it i can barely do the one thing i i want to do that's right yeah and and fortunate for people like us like where it's immediate where you're in it and you're doing it and like the idea of planning like to and you talk to people that make movies it's like well it took five years i'm like five
Guest:Five years.
Guest:Five years.
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:I can't get a tattoo.
Guest:I can't make a decision that's going to last that far into the future.
Marc:Yeah, I dread next week.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Like, I'm like, oh, I got to do that thing.
Marc:You know?
Guest:Yeah, I'm with you.
Marc:It doesn't require anything.
Marc:I think you also work with my friend Lynn Shelton on a movie.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yes, I didn't know you knew Lynn.
Guest:Yeah, I love her.
Guest:Boy, she's just great, too.
Guest:Oh, she's the best.
Guest:I've had such good luck with these people.
Marc:Yeah, she directed my comedy special just a month ago, and she directed some Glow.
Marc:She did an episode of Glow and two episodes of my show.
Marc:I've had her in here.
Guest:Oh, my gosh, I didn't know that.
Guest:I didn't know all those things.
Guest:I had not heard of her before I worked with her, and then I thought, I don't know how I didn't know her.
Marc:She's a real actor's director.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:You can tell that she has done it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And she's got to like she feels the thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, like when she's watching it, she's like, did you get there?
Marc:Did you think?
Guest:Right, right, right, right.
Guest:And she was also not afraid to say when she didn't know.
Guest:She was like, you know, oh, gosh, let me think about that.
Guest:I'm not.
Guest:Well, why don't we try it that way?
Guest:I mean, you really got the idea that she was also OK with coming up with it as we moved through it.
Marc:I'm excited.
Marc:What that movie ended up being called?
Guest:Long Shot.
Guest:I think it's called Long Shot.
Guest:And I so loved it.
Marc:You saw the cut?
Guest:I have seen a very early cut of it.
Guest:Yeah, you like it?
Guest:Well, I need to see it like 50 more times before I'm able to not actually see myself.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:Takes that many times?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:And often I don't ever get to that version of it.
Guest:So it's a lot of me and it's...
Guest:one of the things I don't often care about how I look it's not what I admit it's for and especially I think I want to look like a regular person so anyway so then there I was looking like a regular person and it was hard it's hard to watch but anyway Jay Duplass is in it and he's just so just such a lovely also another sort of non-actor actor he's getting good though so good so yeah I just had such a glorious time working on that thing
Marc:Oh, wait, wait, real quick.
Marc:I watched a comedian on the plane.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:Who says no to working with Robert De Niro?
Marc:I know, I know.
Marc:It's hard for me as a comedian to watch it, but I thought there was some good stuff in it.
Marc:Jessica Kurson.
Marc:Oh, yeah, she's crazy.
Guest:Holy mackerel.
Marc:What a powerhouse.
Guest:I think that was one of my favorite parts of the movie was three seconds of her act.
Marc:Doing that thing that she does.
Guest:Holy crap, she's funny as hell.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I know a lot of the people in there.
Marc:I bet you do.
Marc:I know Jeff.
Guest:All those stand-up guys.
Marc:But having those scenes with Robert, I think it's a very weird thing.
Marc:I talked to Anne Hathaway about this.
Marc:I think that the work he's doing now
Marc:When he puts his mind to it, and it's not so menacing as it used to be, it's some of the best shits he's ever done.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like, I've watched The Intern, like, four times.
Guest:I gotta see that again.
Guest:I've had some people tell me, actually, it's really quite a lovely movie.
Marc:Well, for him, like, to, like, you know, like, that he's not, he doesn't have to be this thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like, he's really, he's got, he's got his chops, and he's, like, doing things.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Like, even in that movie, it must have been kind of fun to do it with him.
Guest:Well, that...
Guest:Going back to an earlier question, I could say nothing to him.
Guest:I stood next to the man for hours and hours.
Guest:I said not a word.
Guest:I mean, there's also this piece with Mr. De Niro that he reminds me so much of my dad.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:You know, a very close bond that I just had an ease around him that was not earned.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So I didn't feel the need to talk the whole time.
Guest:But what the hell do you say to Robert De Niro that's not, you know?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:There was no chitchat.
Guest:No chitchat.
Guest:And you wonder, for a man who's done as much as he's done, why does he need to do these movies?
Guest:But someone said that he really just loves being on a set.
Guest:And I can relate.
Marc:Well, yeah, right?
Guest:Just like being around the whole... Me too.
Guest:This person does this thing, and you learn more about... You hit your mark, and then if they cover you this way, then just...
Marc:I would never go to the trailer.
Guest:Same here.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:I just love it.
Marc:You know who said that?
Marc:Who directed A Few Good Men?
Marc:Rob Reiner?
Marc:Rob Reiner, I think.
Marc:But there was these scenes where they weren't doing Nicholson's coverage.
Marc:And it was a fairly taxing part.
Marc:I think it was in A Few Good Men in the courtroom scene.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:And if I'm remembering correctly, and they were doing Cruz's coverage or someone else's coverage.
Marc:And Nicholson was kept doing it, you know, and full on.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:And and and someone said to him, he said, you know, Jack, you don't you can you have to you don't have to do you can just do the lines.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And he goes, I'd love to act.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:And there you go.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And that's it right there.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:It's certainly a pleasure talking to you.
Guest:Oh, and you as well.
Marc:And I appreciate it.
Marc:It worked out.
Marc:It worked out good.
Guest:It worked out great.
Marc:I don't have to go to a meeting now.
Guest:I don't know if I agree with that.
Marc:Well, good luck with the movie and everything else.
Guest:Thank you so much.
Marc:Okay, that was amazing.
Marc:Truly amazing.
Marc:I got a little teared up, I gotta be honest with you, talking about that 52nd Street thing, you know, about working with the kids.
Marc:You know, I just, I tear up and you can't see it or hear it.
Marc:And I don't know if she saw it or heard it, because I was choking them back.
Marc:You can't just have the waterworks going right there in the middle of an interview.
Marc:You can feel it anyways.
Marc:It's visceral.
Marc:It's tangible.
Marc:You know when somebody's there.
Marc:I don't have to squirt them out.
Marc:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:But that was great talking to Edie Falco.
Marc:Okay, what else do I got to tell you?
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's a little hot out here.
Marc:I think I'm going to forego the guitar today.
Marc:I know that's heartbreaking to some of you.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Everybody okay?
Marc:You good?
Marc:All right.
Marc:Boomer lives!
Boomer lives!