Episode 819 - Ariel Leve / Wheeler Walker, Jr.
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuck of crats?
Marc:What the fuck publicans?
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my show.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:The podcast founded in 2009 and
Marc:Is that right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:God, man, we've been doing this a long time.
Marc:How are you today on the show?
Marc:Someone I've known a long time, kind of.
Marc:Have I really?
Marc:Well, I knew her way back when for a short period of time, maybe a little bit.
Marc:Maybe I met her a couple of times like 20 some odd years ago.
Marc:How's that?
Marc:So maybe saying that.
Marc:I know her a long time is not exactly right, but I met her and she was familiar to me.
Marc:And then after I talked to her, even more familiar to me because we're very similar.
Marc:It's one of those conversations where it's like, wow, this is getting deep here in terms of issues.
Marc:But Ariel Levy, she's got her book coming out in paperback, An Abbreviated Life, a Memoir,
Marc:It's available now, and it's kind of an intense talk.
Marc:I guess this is sort of intense talk time.
Marc:I got a lot of feedback for the Phil Elverham, Mark Mulcahy conversations.
Marc:Most of the feedback was, you know, I'm crying at my desk, but it's good.
Marc:It's always good when crying is good.
Marc:Those are the big moments in life.
Marc:When crying is good, it's good.
Marc:When crying is bad, maybe you should get out of that situation.
Marc:What do you think?
Marc:Oh, and also on the show, I'm not sure I should have done this, but look, I'm a fan of country music, and I have an open mind, and I can respect artists, but this is one of those things where it's like,
Marc:What are people going to think of this guy?
Marc:You know, I have his first record.
Marc:He's got a new record coming out.
Marc:But, you know, he wanted to come by.
Marc:He came by.
Marc:So I was going to I'll indulge him.
Marc:Wheeler Walker Jr.
Marc:So, you know, so that's coming up.
Marc:You should you should look forward to it.
Marc:So I hope you're keeping it together and you're fighting the good fight still.
Marc:It is a country worth fighting for, even when it seems daunting and full of fucking idiots.
Marc:And just scary as the sort of foundations of reality kind of shift and move happens.
Marc:And become unclear.
Marc:Just know who you are.
Marc:All right.
Marc:You just got to know who you are.
Marc:When you come back, you got to know who you are.
Marc:That was like an old rule of hallucinogenics.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Just hang on.
Marc:Remember your name.
Marc:Just remember your name and where you're standing and what you are and what you stand for.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:how about i just fucking relax can i just fucking do that would that be all right with you people can i just fucking relax for a couple weeks i don't know if i can i i hadn't done stand-up in a couple weeks maybe a week or so but i spent all that time doing the big sets on the road and i come back and and a couple weeks go by and i'm like no i don't think i want to do it anymore and then i think well what the fuck what does that even mean man what are you gonna do it's like i don't know does anyone really care i mean what's the point you know it's like i don't know what i want to say and
Marc:And then I go a little deeper in it because I'm thinking, where does that come from?
Marc:Because I'm kind of causing myself stress.
Marc:And I put in for a spot at the comedy store on Saturday night.
Marc:And I felt like I hadn't done the store.
Marc:I haven't been there in months.
Marc:That's a very specific place.
Marc:I know I'm going to do the spot on Saturday.
Marc:And I'm kind of like, ah, what am I going to, how come I just, Jesus, I don't know what I'm going to say anymore.
Marc:I mean, what's the point?
Marc:You know, I just, it's like, haven't I done enough?
Marc:Can I just take a break?
Marc:And heading into a Saturday night spot in the main room, I was trying to figure out what the fuck is the struggle here?
Marc:Like, how does that happen that I've been doing something more than half my life?
Marc:And and then sometimes I'm just sort of like, I can't I don't know how to do it.
Marc:I'm like, I don't have any new jokes.
Marc:Why would I have new jokes?
Marc:I've been on the road for months doing this hour, hour and a half, hour 40, whatever the hell I was doing.
Marc:So those jokes know most people don't know those jokes.
Marc:Because I don't have a new fucking joke or two or a new bit or a new idea, which happens a lot in these very monologues, arguably this could be one of them.
Marc:I just kind of undermine myself completely.
Marc:And I'm like, well, fuck it.
Marc:Where are the new jokes going to come from?
Marc:When does that happen?
Marc:When does the muse deliver them?
Marc:But I went to the store and then I just got it in my head.
Marc:I'm like, dude, just go up and fucking kill.
Marc:Just go up and kill.
Marc:It's a full house.
Marc:Do the jokes you like.
Marc:Stay present.
Marc:Do the ones that keep it current.
Marc:Take some shots.
Marc:But do the good ones.
Marc:It's 15 minutes.
Marc:Just go up.
Marc:Take your place.
Marc:You haven't been to the store in a couple weeks and fucking kill.
Marc:So I go back, I go up to the, you know, I get there, I hang out.
Marc:They put new bathrooms in the back hallway.
Marc:Now that may not be a big deal to some of you.
Marc:But to those of us that have been going to the comedy store for half our life, any little structural improvement is sort of like, wow, man, things are really turning around.
Marc:There's a couple of clean bathrooms in the back hallway, not the single occupancy ones that smell funny.
Marc:And you never know what you're going to be looking at when you walk in there.
Marc:I know this is probably, you know, the people that like to do blow and fucking bathrooms, this is going to, you know, they're taking a hit on this one.
Marc:But but people who enjoy having, you know, the option to go to the bathroom with a couple of stalls and it's clean.
Marc:You know, welcome to the new comedy store.
Marc:And then I just got on stage and fucking killed.
Marc:And I don't always do that because it's not always what I'm thinking about.
Marc:Sometimes I'm just thinking about I hope this works.
Marc:But I'm like, dude, just go up and do the fucking job and and kill.
Marc:Just pick it out.
Marc:Just pick out the shit and do it.
Marc:So in other words, I'm probably going to be doing comedy for a while longer.
Marc:Because it felt fucking great.
Marc:You hear me?
Marc:Yeah, so I feed my cat fish.
Marc:Look, I go to the fish store, I get fish for myself so I don't clog my heart up with other garbage animal products.
Marc:And, you know, there's some fresh fish that is cheaper than cat food, to be honest with you.
Marc:I don't know if you have a fresh fish place.
Marc:But, like, I get some, like, I don't remember, rock fish.
Marc:It's like eight bucks a pound.
Marc:And I just get, like, you know, like a quarter pound.
Marc:And I just give them little treats of fish.
Marc:So they feel wild.
Marc:So they feel like they've done something with their day.
Marc:You give a cat some chicken or some fish.
Marc:I'll get some Trader Joe's chicken breast just for the cats.
Marc:Yeah, I'm living large.
Marc:That's how I'm spending my money.
Marc:Feeding my cats like wild animals.
Marc:I'll tell you though, man, you give a cat some raw fish and they are flying around the house like they've just achieved something amazing.
Marc:They were in the water killing fish in their mind.
Marc:Just that little taste of the fresh fish and just trigger something in their little wild animal heads.
Marc:And they just fly around the house, proud and wild.
Marc:Man, it's that easy.
Marc:It's that easy.
Marc:Don't you wish it was that easy?
Marc:When was the last time you felt proud and wild, huh?
Marc:When was it?
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:So Wheeler Walker Jr.
Marc:came by and
Marc:I don't really know why I had him over.
Marc:It was probably a mistake, but he's here and he's a character.
Marc:So I'm going to go ahead and share with you my little chat with Wheeler Walker Jr.
Marc:His new album, Old Wheeler, is available now at WheelerWalkerJr.com.
Marc:That's J-R, not Junior.
Marc:So WheelerWalkerJr.com or wherever you get music.
Marc:So listen to me and Wheeler talk.
Marc:So, Wheeler, what is it with you guys?
Marc:You can't take the hat off to wear the headphones?
Guest:No, man.
Guest:I got to look.
Guest:I got to keep, you know.
Marc:Yeah, but no one's looking.
Guest:Well, we got David over here.
Marc:All right, all right.
Marc:But, I mean, are you hiding something?
Marc:Are you...
Guest:Yeah, well, I mean, I'm losing my hair.
Guest:You are.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I always said that the difference between a guy who goes into rock and roll and the country guys, I think the country guys are the guys losing their hair so they can wear the cowboy hat.
Marc:Well, I mean, I always thought when I was younger, growing up, that the cowboy hat would cause baldness somehow, that you're not getting enough sun or putting too much pressure on your hat.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, I guess it's a catch-22, I suppose.
Marc:Yeah, let me see the record.
Marc:You know, I liked the first album.
Marc:You know, I got behind it.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:You were a lot of help with... Did some tweeting.
Guest:Did a lot of tweeting.
Guest:You also tweet about a lot of, you know, other great country artists there, too.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:Remember you liked this girl, Aubrey Sellers' record?
Guest:Aubrey Sellers.
Guest:She was good.
Guest:And Margot came in here.
Guest:Margot came in here.
Marc:Sturgill came in here.
Guest:Isbell, right?
Guest:He's been in here.
Marc:Isbell, yeah.
Marc:Years ago, I talked to Isbell.
Marc:So you see yourself... Those are your peers.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, to me, I don't think they'd say that, but to me they are.
Marc:Well, did you sell any records on that?
Guest:Yeah, I did real.
Guest:I mean, the goal with the first record was to sell enough to make a second record.
Guest:And you've got it in your hands.
Guest:So, yeah, it was.
Guest:Did you make any profit at all?
Guest:More than I thought.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it's weird in independent music.
Guest:It's like, what's a profit?
Guest:It's enough to do the next one.
Marc:But I still wonder, these songs, how are you going to get radio play on some of these songs?
Marc:It doesn't matter anymore.
Guest:It don't matter.
Guest:We actually put out a, you know, they have those trade magazines where you put out the like, you know, how many stations added you.
Guest:We've actually put out a fake one in the trades.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because we sent one of the songs out to radio.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it got zero ads and they actually printed zero ads.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like zero stations added.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we actually bought an ad in the paper, you know.
Guest:Put zero.
Guest:Congratulations to Wheelock Jr.
Guest:for zero ads.
Marc:Let's just talk about some of these on this, the new record, Ole Wheeler.
Marc:Do you want me to read these song names?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Pussy King.
Guest:I mean, I understand it, but I mean, like, how do you... I mean, I'm the, I mean, you know, like I said, it's like, you know, Elvis was the king, Michael Jackson was the king of pop.
Guest:There's nothing else left.
Marc:So, okay, so you're the Pussy King.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Finger Up My Butt.
Marc:What's that one about?
Marc:How's that going to get ready?
Guest:Well, there was a, I'm not going to lie, we're kind of struggling with getting that one on the radio.
Marc:You're struggling with getting Finger Up My Butt on the radio?
Guest:Yeah, well, the thing, I'd heard a story, there's a big-time country star that I'd heard stories of who he can only really get off when he has a finger up his ass.
Marc:So it's not even about you?
Marc:It's about some other guy?
Guest:Correct.
Guest:But I can't say his name.
Guest:I'll get in trouble.
Marc:But it doesn't matter.
Marc:They're not going to play it anyway.
Marc:Now, Drunk Sluts, that should be popular.
Marc:Yeah, I think that could be the hit.
Marc:The single?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, I mean, what happened?
Marc:I mean, because I've heard the album, the other album, and, you know, it's not novelty music.
Marc:I mean, it's real country music with real country sentiment, and it's honest, but it seems like you're almost making it more difficult for yourself to get radio played by making it filthy.
Guest:Yeah, well, I mean, that's why I'm here.
Guest:You know, it's like...
Guest:I can say, fuck here, you know, it's like, fuck it, I'll just do the podcast, I'll do it my way, and I don't wanna censor myself, you know, it's like.
Marc:Okay, I get that, but I mean, there's ways to capture the same sentiment, maybe not with finger up my butt or pussy king, but it seems like fucking around and drunk sluts and if my dick is up, why am I down?
Marc:Well, that's a pretty good lyric, but still, I mean, it's going to be tough to, you know, get it on the way.
Guest:Yeah, I was like, you know, I was just, I'd spent so many years bumming around Nashville, you know, trying to do it their way.
Guest:I'm like, you know what?
Guest:No more sense.
Guest:I'm just going to, you know, you write a song and then you kind of clean it up before you record it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You put your first thoughts down.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:What if I made a record where I just didn't, you know...
Guest:censor yourself i didn't i put i recorded the first drafts almost i wanted it was kind of you know i figured this was my last shot you know well why is that i mean what the fuck happened to you i mean i can say that here i mean it's like when i saw you years ago it sounded good you're on the right trajectory uh you're a little younger but you you know yeah well 15 years of having my ass handed to me was just i'd had enough and i go i want to put you know i want to put that shit down and you know
Guest:onto a record and honest and also i i knew it would piss off nashville so i'm like well i know but isn't there a fine line like what the hell happened to that first record i remember there's a bunch of buzz on the first record what was that like uh like that was like fucking over 15 years ago that yeah it was like you know it was marketing shit you know like what happened well i blame you know it's been lon's fault it was a 9 9 11 you know the record came out on 9 11 yeah on that day
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, but, I mean, yeah, that's tough.
Marc:That's tough, but it's a record.
Marc:It should still be out there.
Marc:I mean, what's it called?
Guest:Well, it's called No Love for the City because, you know, I'm a country boy, so we kind of put a, you know.
Marc:So your album No Love for the City came out on 9-11.
Guest:And there was a picture of the towers behind us.
Guest:That was probably the bigger issue.
Marc:It's just you in front of the old World Trade Center.
Guest:I never was a big fan of New York City, and that was the worst week to say that, obviously.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it was a bad week for the record to come out.
Marc:You had no control over that.
Guest:Yeah, it's not my fault.
Guest:Then after that, yeah, I think I took that, I internalized it, and then just kind of took it, you know.
Marc:And so what happened after that?
Guest:Then, you know, got another record deal, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Fuck the CEO's wife or whatever.
Guest:You know, that's the kind of shit that got me into trouble, you know.
Marc:You fucked the CEO of the label's wife?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And that was probably... Self-sabotage, maybe?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I don't get that deep into it.
Guest:I mean, it could have been, yeah.
Guest:You don't get that deep into it?
Guest:But, I mean, was it worth it?
Guest:Was it a good time?
Guest:Looking back, I could have used the money more than that night, but yeah.
Marc:Than the pussy?
Guest:Yeah, well, looking back, that was definitely one of the dumber moves.
Guest:What are some other ones?
Guest:i mean i just you know i just you know i would get in fights in the studio fire the band fire the producer then realize i'd blown because these these record labels are more just like banks you know it's not like uh-huh if i fire everyone i go tell the label and they go uh-huh we don't have the money to hire anybody else i can't just so it's just you sitting alone in there like fuming
Guest:Yeah, just it's, you know, they got like, there's a lot of camera footage of me just, you know, smashing, mixing, but I would blow my advance on, you know, smashing, you know, guitars I smash.
Marc:So you're a guy with a second record deal with the shit luck of having a record come out
Marc:on 9-11 with other problems, so the first thing you do in that first year of the next record deal, you fuck the CEO's wife, you fire your band, you fire the producer, you've got no juice of your own, no real traction, so how long did it take for them to say fuck you, the record label?
Guest:I mean, that one was pretty damn fast.
Guest:I mean, probably I would say it could be counted in hours.
Marc:Oh, hours after you fired the producer and the band?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I think it was the fucking that got me.
Marc:So that all timed out?
Marc:Like the CEO found out you fucked his wife around the same time that you fired?
Guest:Yeah, well, I knew after that I was probably on my way out.
Guest:Yeah, so you're like, why not just burn it down?
Guest:Yeah, let's just burn it down.
Guest:That's kind of what I'm doing with the new shit, is just like, what's gonna piss off Music Row the most?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Is playing this traditional country that I love, that they obviously hate, since they're putting out all this pop shit.
Guest:I'll put it out my way, you know, and just...
Marc:So did Dave Cobb do this one too?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, so you're working with a real guy.
Guest:I'm working with, yeah, I'm working with the best of the best.
Guest:It's just, you know, there's some legal issues on whether they're going to have their names on the final.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:You may have to put a sticker on the record.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:So why not just do, you know, real country music that's not filthy?
Marc:I don't want to.
Marc:Well, I understand that.
Marc:But, I mean, do you want to make a living?
Marc:How are you making money?
Marc:I mean, what are you doing?
Guest:Well, I mean, like I said, now it's kind of really, you know, it's make it or break it time, really.
Marc:But that's happened before, it sounds like.
Guest:I know, but this one I just wanted to see.
Guest:These are crazy times out there.
Guest:I wanted to see what would happen if...
Guest:If I put out me, you know, Wheeler Raw, you know, put it all out there, see what's happening.
Marc:But what have you been doing for the last 10 years?
Marc:You don't drink, you didn't get fucked up, drugs, drinking?
Marc:No, I drank.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:All right, did that become a problem?
Marc:I mean, it just sounds like there's still a gap in time there that, where you just hold up somewhere, where you, you know.
Guest:Yeah, well, I guess time moves pretty fast when you're just drinking and sitting around the house and being upset, you know.
Guest:So you lost maybe a decade, or?
Guest:I would say I lost seven years.
Guest:Seven.
Marc:So you don't remember what was going on?
Marc:Did you have any?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, obviously the big thing for me was losing the wife.
Guest:Where'd she go?
Marc:Is she dead?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I'd have to check my phone, but I don't think she is.
Guest:But she's a...
Guest:She'd had just about enough of me, so.
Guest:Oddly, she digs the new record, because this is me not trying to pretend to be somebody I ain't.
Marc:Oh, so she says, at least you're being honest, I'm glad I left kind of deal?
Marc:Maybe that's a good name for a song.
Marc:That's not bad.
Marc:Yeah, like, at least you're being honest.
Guest:Somebody write that now?
Marc:I'm glad I left.
Guest:so are any of these songs about her like uh yeah fucking around is a fucking around about that's me and her you know fucking around each other and she was supposed to sing on that one but no good no no she she with another dude now no i'm not she better fucking not be i mean we'll get back together i'm sure okay poon poon is kind of my fuck you to nashville
Marc:It seems to be the theme, right?
Guest:Yeah, but that one I actually named names.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like who?
Guest:The artists I don't like.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Like Florida Georgia Line.
Guest:I even mentioned Reba and Garth Brooks just to start some controversy.
Guest:Start some shit?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You think it's gonna?
Guest:Or you think they're just gonna be like... I'm guessing Garth don't check his Twitter that much.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What are you gonna do if this doesn't work out?
Marc:What are you, like 40-something now?
Guest:Yeah, I'm 42.
Guest:I mean, I'll probably just move back to my parents' farm and just sit around, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is there any animals out there?
Guest:Yeah, we got a couple cows.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah, so your folks would have you back?
Marc:You think you could just move into your old room, or...?
Guest:No, we got a little farmhouse in the back.
Guest:I'd sleep back there.
Guest:I'd probably be happy just hanging out there, seeing my old butt.
Guest:A lot of my buddies growing up didn't really make it out of town even.
Marc:Oh, so they're all there?
Guest:Yeah, we just get around, get fucked up, go to the bowling alley and shit.
Guest:Right, so they'd just be like, he's back!
Guest:I think they expected me to be back sooner than that.
Guest:They've been waiting for me since then anyway.
Marc:Well, I mean, I wish you luck.
Marc:I don't know you, but it's a bold move.
Marc:I don't know how you're going to get any airplay with this thing, but I hope you succeed in pissing off Nashville enough to make you feel like you've achieved something.
Guest:Yeah, I felt like I was on my way out anyway.
Guest:Let's just go out with the biggest fucking bang I can.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Are you playing these songs live when you go out?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And people are enjoying it?
Marc:You got a draw?
Marc:Are the people coming to see you?
Guest:Well, we're about to tour.
Guest:We're going to find out.
Guest:Oh, so you don't know, you haven't played any of them, right?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, my guess is no, and then, like I said, this is kind of my, most likely my swan song, so I wanted to go out and try to promote it.
Marc:But why do I feel like you're so committed to this?
Marc:It almost feels like, you know, the best thing that could happen is this fails.
Guest:Maybe I've just been at it too long, I think, you know?
Guest:I think I, I don't think it's self-sabotage, really, like you said.
Guest:I think it's more just like,
Guest:I'm so fucking pissed I can't take it anymore.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Nashville, fucking look what you've done to me kind of thing.
Marc:But you look good.
Marc:I mean, you seem together.
Guest:I mean, I put everything I had into the record, no doubt.
Marc:Right, but you kind of made it so it makes it very difficult for you to succeed, but you're going to feel good if you succeed.
Guest:It's almost like I'm thinking about the whole story, so I'm thinking about the end, too.
Guest:It's like...
Guest:how to work out and then I can go, man, you should just, I did the craziest fucking thing you'd ever seen.
Marc:So you're already thinking about the stories you're gonna tell your friends back at the farm.
Guest:Yeah, maybe that's where I make the money, on the book.
Marc:Oh, on the book.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that you're looking ahead.
Marc:You haven't started writing that yet.
Marc:No, I ain't gonna, yeah.
Guest:They don't give you some guy to write it for you?
Guest:Sure, if they give a shit about you.
Guest:That's a big if, I guess.
Marc:All right, man, well, you know, best of luck with it.
Marc:It's always nice talking to somebody who's, you know, got a, you know, is committed to their vision, you know what I mean?
Guest:Oh, thanks, man.
Guest:Yeah, same thing for you, man.
Guest:I mean, it's cool to catch up with you again.
Guest:Thanks for having me.
Guest:It's cool that I actually, there's about, we did the, you know, we looked down, there's about seven places, outlets where I'm allowed to even name the songs here, so it's cool that one of them that you said yes.
Marc:Sure, we can name a couple other ones.
Marc:Well, we got the dirty ones, like Small Town Saturday Night.
Marc:That sounds like a regular country song.
Guest:Yeah, well, me and my buddy end up jacking each other off at the end of that song because we get bored.
Guest:Did that happen?
Guest:All right.
Marc:I'll say no comment.
Marc:All right.
Marc:How about Summers in Kentucky?
Marc:That sounds nice.
Guest:Yeah, that's a pretty one.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, that's one that I think we could get some radio play from.
Guest:What happens in that one?
Guest:It's just like looking back at how much I miss the old days about getting old and what my fucking life has turned into and how the girls I've grown up with are now looking kind of nasty.
Marc:See, now it's all going well until... Yeah, that's what happens.
Guest:About two minutes into that song, it kind of all falls apart.
Marc:But you say that like it's exactly what you wanted to do.
Guest:Yeah, well, I don't know that that song would have worked without me talking about the stretched out pussies and stuff, you know?
Guest:Yeah, I think that's... There's people who would argue with that, I'm sure.
Marc:Well, no, a lot of songwriters I've talked to have run into that problem.
Guest:They're like, how do I... Yeah, you've had some of the biggest... Yeah.
Marc:Keith Richards had that problem?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He was here, right?
Marc:He was here, but usually they figure out another way to say it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I guess that's what makes you you is the honesty.
Marc:Yeah, I never claimed to be Keith Richards.
Marc:You brought him up.
Marc:I'm just saying that I don't know that there's any Stone songs that outwardly say, what a stretched out pussy, but on some level.
Guest:But yeah, I mean, I guess he's better at, you know, they had some pretty...
Guest:edgy edgy shit that they sure they did so yeah yeah i'm not as clever to figure out i didn't want to do i didn't want to do any i didn't want any innuendos i didn't want to like right it's like it's 2017 enough with the fucking metaphors right yeah straight shooter yeah yeah maybe that should be the title of your next record straight shooter that's probably already taken oh yeah it's got to be right right i don't know we can google it do you have a computer or did you
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I got a phone.
Guest:Straight shooter.
Guest:That's a good fucking... Can I just take that?
Marc:I would.
Marc:I would just take it and not even research it.
Marc:See what happens.
Marc:It seems to be in your thing.
Marc:Like, you know, fuck you.
Marc:I didn't know.
Marc:Maybe that's another good title.
Marc:Fuck you.
Marc:I didn't know.
Marc:You think about that one?
Marc:Yeah, fuck you.
Marc:I don't know why I'm pitching you titles.
Guest:Yeah, fuck you.
Guest:I didn't know you couldn't talk about pussies on the radio.
Guest:That's a little long for a title.
Guest:But, yeah, I mean.
Guest:But I know what you're saying.
Guest:You know what I'm saying.
Guest:I do.
Guest:It's like, I want them to come to me.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:I want them to go.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:We'll bleep it ourselves.
Guest:Because I ain't sending it out.
Marc:That's another good one.
Marc:We'll bleep it ourselves.
Marc:That's a good title for something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you need to ride anywhere?
Guest:Do you have a car or?
Guest:Well, my piece of shit manager just took his cousin to Disneyland or something.
Guest:So, yeah, he'll be back.
Guest:He'll be back in a little bit.
Guest:Like how long?
Guest:I'll just wait outside.
Guest:What time is it?
Guest:You're going to wait out in front?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it'll be six hours max.
Guest:I got my guitar.
Guest:I can work on some tunes.
Guest:Out front?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you mind?
Marc:No, it's all right.
Marc:Yeah, just not in the yard.
Marc:Like at the end of the drive.
Guest:Okay, just on the street?
Guest:Well, the sidewalk's fine.
Marc:All right, cool.
Marc:I mean, I can give you a bottle of water, too.
Guest:I would appreciate that.
Marc:All right, buddy.
Marc:Well, thanks for talking.
Guest:Of course, man.
Guest:Thanks, dude.
Guest:Thanks for having me, and everyone go out and buy the record.
Marc:Again, the new Wheeler Walker Jr.
Marc:record, Old Wheeler, is available at WheelerWalkerJR.com or wherever you get music.
Marc:So, Ariel Levy.
Marc:This book she wrote about her mom, the memoir, and where she's at emotionally.
Marc:you know, what, you know, her journey.
Marc:I tell you, you know, this interview took place in the evening and, you know, it was kind, it got kind of, I don't know if it got heavy, but a lot in common, you know, and we just...
Marc:I remember at some point where I was talking to her and I'm like, God, we're just kind of working through stuff, aren't we?
Marc:But the book is great and it's available in paperback, An Abbreviated Life, a memoir, okay?
Marc:It actually comes out tomorrow, June 13th.
Marc:So this is me and Ariel in the garage talking some issues, some stuff, some family, some things.
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:i remember you hanging around luna lounge i remember it i remember you like when you sent the book the book that you're you're gonna tell me about yeah i was like yeah i do remember you i don't know if you told me an abbreviated life that's the name of your book but i don't know if you like it was sent with like do you i know you do you remember me did you
Guest:No, I said you probably won't remember me.
Marc:But like I do remember you.
Marc:Why do I remember you?
Marc:You were around.
Marc:You must have been around.
Guest:I was around.
Guest:I wasn't in the foreground.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:No, it was like Luna Lounge, right?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Mid-90s.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I don't know if I never asked you out or like I never... Because I was sort of... We didn't go out.
Marc:Not even once.
Marc:No.
Marc:Not even for a dinner.
Marc:No.
Marc:Not for a coffee.
Marc:No.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But why were you hanging around comedy then?
Yeah.
Guest:I was working at MTV.
Guest:I was working on a show, a comedy show at MTV, so I was with a lot of the comedy writers.
Guest:I was not really a part of it.
Guest:I was more of an observer.
Marc:Right, a regular.
Guest:Yeah, and then I drifted away because I wasn't in the comedy scene.
Marc:Well, what did you end up doing?
Guest:Journalism.
Marc:Okay, so how does that go?
Guest:So that was in my early 30s.
Marc:Really?
Marc:The comedy thing?
Guest:Luna, yeah.
Guest:I don't know, I'm 49 now.
Marc:I'm 53.
Marc:That was like 95, right?
Marc:I guess.
Guest:It's like we're 90.
Marc:I know, it happens.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:What was that back in the day?
Marc:Well, it had to happen.
Marc:Yeah, it is back in the day.
Guest:When they had taxis and they had like, you know.
Marc:It was still kind of filthy in New York, just barely.
Guest:Yeah, pay phones.
Guest:Oh yeah, pay phones.
Guest:Remember?
Marc:Sure, I do.
Marc:I remember the first cell phones.
Marc:Pagers.
Guest:Bee burst?
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Yeah, so it was around that time.
Guest:And then I got into journalism in my mid-30s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I started working for the Sunday Times Magazine in England.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:How did that happen?
Marc:Like, why England?
Yeah.
Guest:You know, oh, so this is interesting.
Guest:It was after 9-11.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I wanted to write a story on what had happened to the Muslims in New York post 9-11.
Guest:Because everybody was writing all of these stories about Americans.
Guest:And I thought it was really important to get the voice of what was actually happening.
Guest:Remember, they weren't allowed to go to the Statue of Liberty.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I was living two blocks away from Steinway Street in Queens.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So it was crazy there.
Marc:That was where like, you know, like within a day or two, some kids went pissed off.
Marc:New Yorkers went in and just broke up a coffee shop, you know, and there was a lot of like tension over there because all the Arabs are over there.
Guest:Right, and nobody wanted to do that story.
Guest:And if you remember, I think it was Susan Sontag wrote something for the New Yorker.
Guest:She was vilified.
Guest:So I had a story I wanted to do about some of the shopkeepers who were in the shadow of 9-11.
Guest:They had all those newsstands that were decimated.
Guest:And nobody would do it.
Guest:And I pitched it to, someone had said, you should try England.
Guest:I'd never really had any connections.
Guest:Never thought about it?
Guest:No, I'd read the Sunday Times and I was a big fan of The Guardian and a lot of these papers.
Guest:So this is a true story.
Guest:I called up the switchboard at the Sunday Times magazine.
Guest:In England?
Guest:In England.
Guest:There was actually a switchboard in I Love Lucy.
Guest:And they connected me to an editor in the features department.
Guest:uh-huh and you just said i'm an american i'm here i said i i said i would like to write a story yeah who can i pitch it to yeah and they gave me the name of the editor that would never have i mean can you imagine the new york times it's impenetrable so i pitched the story and he said to me well if you know go ahead and write it and if we like it we'll run it and i went off and i reported it and where'd you go
Guest:I went to some of the mosques, and I found a guy who had lost the business, and I really had no idea what I was doing, but I knew that I wanted to tell the story.
Guest:And then he...
Guest:He ran it in their 9-11 anniversary issue.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:He became, the editor of the magazine became like a mentor to me as a journalist.
Guest:He said, you are pretty good at, you're terrible at reporting.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But you're pretty good at interviewing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I sort of moved in that direction.
Guest:And I started writing for the Sunday Times Magazine.
Marc:Regularly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that was your gig.
Yeah.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:The first interview I did was Martin Scorsese.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's not hard to get talking.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:That's not a tough interview, is it?
Marc:Yeah, he's not shy.
Marc:No, he's kind of going to guide him, throw things into the machine that maybe trigger him in the direction you want, I would imagine.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was fun.
Guest:It was fun.
Guest:I had a really, really great experience with journalism for about 10 years.
Marc:You stayed in New York?
Guest:I went back and forth between London and New York.
Marc:That's exciting for your 30s.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:35 to about 44.
Guest:And then everything changed.
Guest:yeah well i mean he left business well yeah everything because it was almost like this golden era yeah where there was an editor the magazine and he had like a newspaper yeah he had writers and we would all go out to dinner and talk about ideas and then the budget started getting slashed and you know everything started to change and and once he left the magazine i lost the contract and i went back to new york and did what
Guest:I had to start freelancing.
Guest:It was awful.
Guest:And I'm very bad at it because I'm not really good at being pushy or hustling and chasing checks.
Guest:It's freelancing.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Yeah, it's a pain in the ass.
Guest:And then I got the book.
Guest:So I wrote the proposal for the book.
Marc:So this brings us up to that.
Marc:So like you wrote, you did the Times for 10 years and after 10 years you wandered the freelancing plateau.
Guest:No, no, I did.
Guest:So when I was at the magazine, I did a column.
Guest:I did a humor column, pessimism.
Guest:It was called Cassandra.
Marc:At the Times.
Guest:The Sunday Times magazine.
Marc:So that was weekly?
Guest:Yep, I did it for five years.
Marc:Good gig.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Guest:It was hard.
Guest:It was hard.
Guest:Writing a column, people think it's great because it's consistent, but you have to write a column every week.
Marc:You show up for work and figure out what the fuck to write about.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I know, I do a weekly newsletter, so I dread it sometimes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, do you ever run out of things to say?
Marc:Well, you know, fortunately for me, you know, over the last decade, I focus primarily on me.
Marc:So like if something happens to me, there's somewhere to go.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I'm not really reaching out into the world.
Marc:I'm reacting to it.
Marc:So if I if I'm active in my life, even if it's going to a restaurant or if I travel, usually there's something.
Guest:Right.
Marc:you know it's all memoir driven i guess in that way i'm not looking at phenomenon necessarily uh or commenting on something unless it moves through me right yeah but do you ever feel like there's nothing you have left to yeah all the fucking time i feel it now and you know now like uh you know it's uh it's all very crushing you know there's a you know the the the
Marc:My fundamental inability to experience gratitude or happiness or joy is now only kind of buttressed by the political climate we're in now.
Marc:My brain is always...
Marc:going to go there anyways but now it's like there's a reason right you know right that you know that's the way my self-centeredness works that i'm prone towards anxiety and depression but usually it's self-generated over bullshit you know so now so now it's sort of like no now we got something right right you know so my brain's sort of like i'm in i'm occupied
Guest:Right.
Guest:But does it ever, does it ever have, like, there must be gradations of it, right?
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, it took me a long time to realize that, you know, that I wasn't a depressive, that, you know, it was really, you know, profound anxiety.
Marc:panic and dread that you know you know fluctuated you know either through anger or through just you know kind of paralysis but it was not like it wasn't a depression as much as it was an exhaustion you know which I was able to track towards more anxiety but what's the what's the trigger for your anxiety
Marc:I think the trigger is in some way, and it's normal, I think most people just don't think about it as much, is anticipating bad things.
Marc:The trigger is like, I don't know what's going to happen there.
Guest:The not knowing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Personally, as well as in the world?
Marc:Well, I think I just experienced a lot of dread.
Marc:My first thought is always sort of like, well, this is going to be shitty, or this is going to be scary, or I'm in trouble.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I think that was my way of getting through to my parents.
Marc:I had to be...
Marc:In crisis to get attention in some way, you know, because that's the way my parents, their selfishness sort of, you know, they were, I think, worried.
Marc:I don't know if they were good at I know they weren't good at loving or nurturing, but they were good at worrying.
Guest:Were they good at reassuring?
Marc:No, not at all.
Marc:No, it was always sort of, they always put the question back on me.
Marc:Like, yeah, it's going to be all right, right?
Marc:And my mother would be like, I don't know, is it?
Marc:You know, that kind of thing.
Marc:So it was very nebulous.
Marc:Like, yeah, I was very confronted with sort of the need to attempt self-parenting at a very young age.
Marc:There was really no help with the reassurance there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, that's what the anxiety is about.
Guest:It's about seeking that kind of safety.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And there isn't any now.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So it's like really horrendous.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Nobody's going to tell you it's going to be OK that you're going to believe.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But in a way, it's also kind of freeing because we're all going to die.
Marc:Well, we are going to die anyways.
Marc:I just didn't think we'd all do it together.
Guest:But then there's a kind of, what is that, misery loves company?
Marc:Yeah, well, that's a big problem.
Marc:Even before whatever's happening now happened, you've got to keep moving.
Marc:But usually I was driven by compulsion or just whatever it was.
Marc:to keep moving, but right at the point where I was like, I think I'm ready, I can ease up now, because I've done okay, I've achieved some things, then this happens, so now I'm like, well, now there's no possibility for joy or whatever.
Marc:But that's my brain.
Marc:But from your book, which is really about growing up with profound, aggressive narcissism,
Marc:Fortunately, it seems like your mother ran the gamut of emotional, that there was an emotional spectrum there.
Marc:It wasn't all just abuse.
Marc:There was the need for sympathy and victimness and all that shit.
Marc:I mean, my dad was like that too, but my father didn't have as an elaborate a life as your mother.
Marc:But when did this stuff happen?
Marc:The repercussions of this, you know, because I imagine they were unidentified throughout your life, you know, in terms of like you felt a certain way, which wasn't good.
Marc:Numb.
Marc:Numb.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When did you start to track that as being pathological or an issue?
Marc:Like, I mean, you know, you're working at MTV or whatever, you're a kid, you've got your own, we got our problems in our 20s and our 30s, but I mean, this was not unlike me, you know, once you get the key in to tracking it to that, directly to how you were brought up, then, you know, you start to look back and like, oh, all of this shit.
Guest:Right.
Guest:was because of this when did that start happening oh gosh there wasn't um it wasn't like it was one tectonic moment it was i think a series of of moments yeah cumulatively added up to i got to a point where i was in my mid-40s and i just
Guest:I mean, the title of the book, An Abbreviated Life, refers to living a life within brackets.
Guest:Like, I was functional.
Guest:I was able to have a career.
Guest:I had friends.
Guest:I had a life.
Guest:But on the inside, I never felt...
Guest:I never had any feeling of safety.
Guest:I never felt, you know, the ground was always shifting beneath me.
Guest:And I had no center of gravity.
Marc:So were you a drain on your friends?
Guest:I'm pretty sure I was.
Guest:I thankfully have very loyal friends.
Marc:Right, because for me, I always had one or two that were just there.
Marc:And at the time, you don't really give them credit for knowing just how nutty you are.
Guest:That's true.
Marc:But clearly, the good friends that you have know that.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:And most of my close friends are friends I've had all my life.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:You know, at least 20 years.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, you know Martha Plimpton?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:She was just here.
Marc:She's an old childhood friend.
Marc:Well, yeah, you grew up in all that crazy New York shit.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, the world that your mother comes from and that her mother came from, that sort of weird 1970s intelligentsia, theater, art, fashion, literature world...
Marc:was like that was a big deal then.
Marc:They dictated culture.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And you grew up in that.
Guest:I did, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it was almost like, and I wrote about this in the book, that bad behavior was excused.
Guest:It was a very self-indulgent time.
Guest:So if you were an artist, you could get away with the kind of bad behavior that to a certain extent my mother got away with.
Guest:Separate of how it was with her as a parent, I think that that kind of indulgence was accepted.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And it's very specific what you went through, but I don't think that having a bad behaving narcissistic parent is cultural.
Marc:I mean, I think it happens at all tiers of families.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, but like your, you know, your story is like it takes place and, you know, what a lot of us romanticize.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Right, which for me was really very unappealing.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I wanted a very conventional home with a mother who was cutting crusts off the sandwiches.
Guest:I wanted that.
Marc:Did you have friends that had that?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I did, yeah.
Guest:And by the way, I would say to my mother, I wish you were more of a mommy mommy.
Guest:That's what I call it.
Marc:Yeah, they don't like that.
Guest:I was completely ungrateful for having her as a poet and an artist.
Marc:Well, I always pushed back.
Marc:That was, I think, the one thing that saved me in terms of I always fought them.
Marc:I always pushed.
Marc:And I remember a breakdown on a family trip where I'm like, why can't you be more like Eric's parents?
Marc:And there was just like crying in the car and my father going, why don't you go fucking live with them?
Marc:You know, fuck you.
Guest:It's always go live with them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and it was like crazy.
Marc:It was crazy.
Marc:It just, you know, I don't.
Guest:But because they feel taken for granted and it's all about them.
Marc:It's all about them.
Marc:But like, you know, and I hate to admit it.
Marc:I do.
Marc:I do not think they knew how to do it differently.
Marc:And I don't I don't like to let them off the hook, but they're still like they are what they are.
Marc:And, you know, they didn't, you know, I don't know.
Guest:They're still together?
Marc:No.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:But they're alive.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:okay but so you're okay so let's go back before we get into the the core of it like so you're in your 40s yeah and you know you're starting to realize you you know you you feel you don't have any grounding but you're a bit of a control freak right definitely because you go either way like you know kids of alcoholics or kids of narcissists or whatever the problem is either you do everything to manage your environment or you just become like them
Marc:two ways to go right either you're a drunk or you're a person that would never drink and can't stand drunks right yeah or you're a person who would never drink but doesn't care to be around drunks so a polite control freak right right so you're a polite control i would say that's correct not to be too specific uh-huh yeah but but your mother wasn't a drunk
Guest:She did drink, but that was the least of it.
Marc:So what do you do in your 40s when you find that, like, you know, I imagine if it wasn't a tectonic, is that the word you used?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Shift, you know, it was a problem.
Guest:Well, I had gotten to a point where I felt I was so imprisoned by my past that I didn't want to be tyrannized by it anymore.
Marc:And you still had a relationship with her at that point.
Guest:I did, yeah.
Marc:So you were tyrannized because you were constantly triggered by engaging with her.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:I was afraid.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I was afraid of her as an adult the way I had been afraid of her as a child.
Marc:And that's sort of the abbreviated life idea right on another level, which is like, you know, as soon as you engage with them, the emotional interaction is timeless.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And when you're a child and you're helpless, you feel helpless as an adult.
Guest:So that powerlessness had not left me.
Guest:And I think that the cumulative effect of it, of always acquiescing and always making it easy so that I didn't have to engage and have the conflict, created this sense of going through life with a...
Guest:You know, like an armor on.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that only acts to insulate that, you know, terrified kid.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You don't evolve.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You get to a point where then you're ready to evolve.
Marc:What'd you do outside of write the book?
Guest:Well, I did a therapy called EMDR.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I got a buddy that is one of the big practitioners of that.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:I did it.
Marc:I have recordings of me doing it.
Guest:You do?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And did it help you?
Yeah.
Marc:I think in the moment it did.
Marc:I do not think I went deep enough.
Marc:Explain it a little.
Marc:Because, I mean, he talked about it.
Marc:Explain to me what it sets out to do.
Marc:Because it's a bizarre kind of thing that could easily be dismissed as something almost huckstery, you know.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Well, it's used mostly for people with PTSD.
Marc:Yeah, a lot of vets.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And what it, I mean, obviously I'm not a spokesperson or a therapist.
Marc:Sure, but like when it was pitched to you, how did you find?
Guest:So I started to do it because my therapist, my long time therapist, became a practitioner.
Guest:So I would not have known about, I didn't seek it out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she said to me, I think this would be very helpful for you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was completely cynical going into it, obviously, thinking it wasn't gonna work.
Guest:And when she told me about it, it seemed like it's bilateral stimulation.
Guest:So you're hearing sounds, beeps in your ears, you're seeing, watching moving light.
Guest:And what that's doing is it's stimulating your right brain and left brain at the same time.
Guest:But the point of what it does is that there are memories that are frozen, like that have you frozen emotionally.
Guest:So you have reactions to things and you feel certain consequences of things that aren't necessarily logical.
Marc:Or in the current reality.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And by going through this process, it's like unfreezing those memories.
Marc:Yeah, because they remain kind of like on a loop.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And you're reacting as though that is still you're you're frozen in that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:And so it breaks the loop.
Guest:Yeah, I think of it almost like melting the memories.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And you're able to then see, like in my case, without getting into too much about it, I was able to recognize, ah, I...
Guest:was not responsible for her behavior.
Guest:Like that's who she was.
Guest:I was just a kid trying to grow up.
Guest:And I saw her for who she was rather than feeling the anger and the outrage and all of the pain.
Guest:I could actually see it from a distance, which was very helpful.
Marc:You could separate the two of you.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:So I think you should do it.
Marc:I did a little bit, and I did find some success with it.
Marc:I think that PTSD, obviously there's a spectrum of it, but I do think it's a real thing.
Marc:And I did find some relief around some things.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But again, it was him doing it here.
Marc:at your in the garage yeah yeah i did we recorded i don't know what i'm gonna do with it oh okay but when i was in it i don't know if that's the most effective no no i know but you know but we do a podcast of i didn't i didn't put it up okay because i did get choked up and you know it is very vulnerable place as you know when you're in it i was afraid i was gonna have a psychotic break i was really yes i was very i was going into it or do or during it
Guest:going into it i was afraid that it would un you know that i would open a door to memories i had blocked out for a reason yeah and i was scared and i didn't by the way of course i had to play out the worst case scenario right before before to prepare yourself of course i had to you have to that's what you do
Guest:Um, and, and then what happened was when we, you do a timeline of, you know, it's hard to, I won't get into all the specifics, but I'm sure you understand, like you have to talk about ahead of time.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Some of the stuff, the stuff around the trauma, around the trauma.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But in my case, it was, it was sort of a chronic feeling of aloneness.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So how do you isolate that?
Marc:We pick, uh, outstanding memories of that.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Times when I felt completely helpless.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that helped.
Marc:And that was this before you wrote the book?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So when you were going through those things where you're like, this is going to go in the book.
Guest:No, no, no.
Marc:Like this memory is going in.
Guest:No, no, no, because I think unlike you when you did your EMDR, I wasn't like thinking, oh, maybe I'll do something with this.
Marc:I know, but did things come up that you hadn't really thought about in a long time?
Guest:You mean memories?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, a lot of, well, what was weird was that I found, it wasn't the headline traumas that did the most damage.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:It was like little things, like a promise being broken or something.
Marc:Yeah, I got those memories.
Marc:Like just weird little moments of hurt.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That were so profoundly disappointing.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:That you wouldn't have, you don't walk around telling people like, oh, and then when I was eight years old, she broke a promise to have dinner with me.
Guest:It wasn't as though they were that significant, but it came up that those very innocuous moments were actually very painful.
Marc:Yeah, because that pain of rejection or embarrassment.
Marc:Invisibility.
Marc:Invisibility.
Marc:Yeah, well, that's a big one.
Marc:See, that's one thing that I always did throughout my upbringing with selfish parents was I ranted and raved a lot.
Marc:I demanded to be seen.
Marc:Did they hear you?
Marc:Yeah, sometimes.
Marc:Like, there were ways, you know, my old man.
Marc:They were sort of like...
Marc:I think they were kind of taken aback that I was so cocky and so opinionated and so charismatic.
Marc:So there was a default to it.
Marc:I mean, my dad would be pretty brutal emotionally and my mother somewhat detached.
Marc:But I think that because of my charisma or intelligence or my desire to know things, they were kind of like, well, he seems like he's going to be all right.
Marc:Like, you know, he seems to have his own thing.
Marc:Like they were...
Marc:displaced his parents and like inside i was just like being erased constantly right you know right so they disavow your feelings i don't know like like it was like it always became confusing it wasn't there wasn't the there was manipulation like you experienced i think
Marc:But it was more sort of like they were sort of detached.
Marc:My father was very detached and my mother was very indecisive.
Marc:There wasn't much discipline.
Marc:There was no helping with the homework.
Marc:There wasn't necessarily that much interest in what I was doing.
Marc:You know, in terms of feelings, if I was upset or sad, I think it embarrassed my mother somehow and she would laugh at me a lot.
Marc:My father would, you know, like he was just very emotionally detached.
Marc:So there wasn't any...
Marc:you know, like you stink or you're terrible.
Marc:There was a little bit of like, you know, why can't you do better?
Marc:You know, what's the matter with you?
Marc:But it wasn't, the competition became more pronounced later.
Marc:Like when I was a teenager, then it felt like I threatened him.
Marc:I threatened the old man or I threatened her somehow.
Yeah.
Marc:But where did it start with you?
Marc:So you grew up wealthy, right?
Marc:Like Upper East Side?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I had a very bohemian life.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:Man, wealthy is not right.
Marc:You grew up like New York arty.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And your mom was an artist.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My mother was an artist and a great poet and a great writer.
Guest:Known for it.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Famous.
Guest:As famous as a poet can be, right?
Marc:Right, but she was tapped into that.
Marc:It's relative.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Sure, but at that time.
Guest:Yeah, there were a lot of people around who admired her as an artist.
Marc:But I just picture that scene that I used to see on television in the 70s.
Marc:You watch Dick Cavett or something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you'd see... Dick Cavett was great.
Guest:He's still alive.
Marc:I know.
Marc:You'd see George Plimpton, Norman Miller, Andy Warhol, this scene that really kind of was at the forefront of culture, even in stand-up to some degree in the late 70s, that New York, that world of that generation of Bohemians were real rock stars.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And this is after...
Marc:Maybe during the factory, right?
Marc:Warhol?
Guest:A little bit after, yeah.
Marc:So like we're heading into the 80s where everything is... No, it was in the 70s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Early 70s.
Marc:And you're like a kid.
Marc:How old?
Guest:I was... Well, I would say between zero and 10.
Guest:In the 70s.
Guest:So 68 to 78.
Guest:All right.
Marc:So you're young.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was a kid.
Marc:And it's crazy.
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:Who's coming over?
Marc:What are you dealing with?
Yeah.
Guest:Oh, well, there was raucous parties on weeknights, which was very disturbing to me because there would be a lot of people there who I guess you now as an adult would think was exciting.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Norman Mailer and Andy Warhol.
Guest:They were there?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:At your apartment?
Marc:Drinking, yelling.
Guest:I was a kid who needed to sleep.
Guest:So I would come out of my bedroom.
Marc:In your nightie?
Guest:In my nightgown.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And open the door and shout into this crowd of crazy artists, like, can everybody please go home?
Guest:I have to go to school tomorrow.
Guest:I have to go to sleep.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And my mother would say, after the belly dancer or, you know, come join the party.
Marc:And Warhol's just standing there.
Marc:He was detached and odd.
Marc:I mean, you know, I wrote the smoking in there and they're drinking.
Guest:They would come in my room, you know, and I'm an only child, so I was really... To talk to you?
Guest:To talk to me, to sit, to smoke, to get away from the crowd, to use my bathroom.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:You know, it was a... Just like smelly, alcohol, boozy, arty people.
Guest:And I was, like, I felt the only adult.
Guest:At that time, really?
Guest:And I was about eight years old.
Guest:And I think people would...
Marc:Did you feel that or are you putting that back into it?
Guest:Did you feel like the only adult or is that something- I don't think I had the intellectual capacity at that time to recognize it, but I think my constitution was what the fuck is going on?
Guest:Why are these people behaving so inappropriately?
Guest:I'm a kid.
Guest:I shouldn't be the one telling them to be quiet.
Guest:In my head, that's what was going on.
Marc:Then they probably thought you were a precocious, cute kid.
Marc:Oh, look at her, the little square-
Guest:Yeah, or they thought I was a brat.
Marc:Oh, right.
Guest:You know, like, oh, she's such a party pooper.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right, because they're all infantilized grownups.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I was like, you know, the bratty kid who was telling everyone to go home.
Marc:And then how did this, like, and then what, how'd your mother answer for this?
Marc:You know, what was the relationship?
Guest:Well, my mother was very, she was like a kid herself, of course.
Marc:Emotionally.
Guest:Yeah, and she also loved entertaining and she loved being the center of attention.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What would happen is the next day, I was always negotiating for peace.
Guest:I was making her promise, please don't have dinner parties on weeknights.
Guest:Can you just have them on the weekends?
Guest:And then she would say, okay, and then they would come.
Guest:The dinner parties would be on the week.
Guest:There was no consistency.
Mm-hmm.
Guest:And I would say to her the next day, you know, something about this is too much for me.
Guest:I have to go to school.
Guest:And she would say, what's the big deal?
Guest:You know, so it was sort of and that was a, you know, kind of a facet of gaslighting because my perception was being canceled and overwritten.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So gaslighting is a theme throughout this thing.
Marc:In the book, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, because you did the TED Talk on gaslighting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Let's explain that because I hear the word now and I've had to look it up and try to understand what it means.
Marc:I get it.
Guest:Oh, you hadn't heard it?
Marc:I think I heard it, but I don't think I saw it in so much common usage until recently.
Marc:But I heard it, but I didn't know exactly what it was until a few months ago.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And you did a TED Talk on gaslighting.
Guest:Yeah, well, I did it on surviving gaslighting.
Marc:But this is something that happens in interpersonal relationships.
Marc:It's like, explain what it is.
Guest:Gaslighting is when someone manipulates you into questioning your sanity.
Guest:That's probably the most, you know, still down.
Marc:Relationship.
Yeah.
Marc:Any relationship.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I guess you could say that for people like us.
Guest:But it has, you know, it's obviously and it can come in various different forms.
Guest:And sometimes it's when you see things with your own eyes and that you're told you didn't see.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, or I mean, I don't know whether I should talk about it properly.
Guest:I mean, politically now, the reason people are talking about it is because things are happening that are being denied.
Guest:And when reality is denied, that's a form of gaslighting.
Marc:In a big way.
Marc:It's a tactic to destabilize and take power in this particular example you're making.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's also, it's a real...
Marc:tool or it's deployed by extreme narcissists right so is that is that generally the case yeah so and it's a form of abuse okay psychological so when did you you know get this key into your childhood i mean when did you know you you went because it feels like that would be a tectonic moment to have a name for it oh
Guest:You know, there was a moment in my... I talked about this in my 20s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which now feels like 100 years ago.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That I confronted my mother.
Guest:I was very... I never really confronted her because I knew there was total futility.
Guest:It would always backfire and make things worse.
Guest:But I did confront her once and said the words out loud...
Guest:Child abuse.
Guest:And I said it in this very playful way so she didn't feel attacked.
Guest:What about child abuse?
Guest:And her response to that was, what about mommy abuse?
Guest:And no one ever talks about that.
Guest:And I knew in that moment that everything that I had experienced was disavowed.
Marc:She didn't see it.
Marc:She couldn't see it.
Guest:Couldn't see it.
Guest:Couldn't have.
Marc:Empathy.
Guest:Acknowledgement.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, which is important.
Marc:And that's like real narcissism.
Guest:Yeah, and that I think crystallized for me.
Guest:I was sort of like, all right, now I have to recognize I'm never going to get the wish for it to be different.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's the most powerful thing is when you have a parent, you want so desperately to be loved in the way that you need to be loved that it's hard to give up the wish for it.
Marc:Yeah, no, I know.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Marc:But it's interesting because like my experience with my father's narcissism is that, you know, I could, he could get sad, you know, and he was sad a lot.
Marc:And, you know, when, you know, sort of pressured to sort of even, you know, take ownership of any of my feelings and,
Marc:he couldn't quite do it you know he would bring it back to like you know i i was uh yeah i remember when when i was doing this and that and the other thing but you always do this it always goes back to me right like but like i know you you're you're like this and then it becomes like you're just me like they i the way i sort of characterize it is that they a narcissist see you as sort of a some sort of extension or prosthetic limb of theirs right and
Marc:that there's no boundary there.
Marc:So if you're acting up, it's some sort of weird problem they're having with a limb almost.
Marc:And they just need to get it behaving properly so it fits the body.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Like it couldn't possibly be that you have these feelings on your own.
Guest:That you're a different person.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:But does he feel, on the flip side of that, does he feel that he can take credit for your success?
Marc:I don't know that he is able to acknowledge it fully.
Marc:He is now because it becomes undeniable.
Marc:And I wrote a book and I had some stuff about him in it and it leveled him.
Marc:Like, you know, he got paranoid.
Marc:He felt betrayed.
Marc:He got nervous for his own reputation.
Marc:You know, I don't even know if he read it.
Marc:And, you know, he just hears about it like he does has a detachment from almost everything I do.
Marc:And he's primarily since the book preoccupied that I'm going to bring him into it.
Marc:He used to get a real kick out of me when it wasn't, you know, directed at him.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:and then i had to really question my intentions about writing about him you know you know was it spite or you know is it part of my story right right uh you know is it a betrayal and you know and and you know why did i handle it right you know do you feel that way because of you're afraid of hurting him
Marc:Well, it's like, I think gaslighting and Stockholm Syndrome have some crossover, right?
Marc:Right.
Guest:Overlap, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, you know, I guess gaslighting is the more self-aware component of beating Stockholm Syndrome, of identifying with the oppressor, right?
Marc:Because they're always in your head.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Yes, I hadn't thought about that.
Guest:That's true.
Marc:You know, so they live in you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you're always going to kind of like go to their point of view in there.
Guest:Because you're also seeing it from their perspective.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And so like, I don't know how I really felt.
Marc:I felt like really what it comes down to is I felt like this was a radical way of establishing a boundary.
Marc:And I did not regret that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, I think that I felt that way, too.
Guest:I mean, when I wrote, for me, writing the book was because it was crossing a threshold.
Guest:I really didn't think about it being published.
Guest:I thought about writing this book because I always felt...
Guest:if I'm going to jump off a roof, I have to write this book first.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it was a book that had to be written.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And then I could get on with my life.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I feel like I did feel that way to a certain degree, but there is also this idea that you're going to show them once and for all on some level.
Guest:Yeah, I never had that.
Guest:Because I think I knew that...
Guest:it was yeah i know i i can't say i had that because i felt she wasn't going to learn a lesson do you know what i mean like she it was it wasn't going to get through to her right and she is who she is and she is the way she is and the only thing i could do is look out but you didn't think it was going to hurt her
Guest:everything hurts her.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:It was a feeling of I had to put myself first.
Guest:And I think that in some ways the feeling, I mean this is a bigger conversation about memoir in general, but I think that you're always betraying someone when you tell the truth.
Guest:And you have to decide to, you know, in my case, I had managed her feelings for so long that I really had, and maybe this answers your, it's a circuitous way of getting back to your question, but I think I learned I had to put myself first.
Guest:And that was okay.
Guest:That it was protecting myself.
Guest:It wasn't being self-centered.
Marc:Right, it was allowing you to maybe grow that scared kid up to integrate your body.
Marc:Right, you know what I mean?
Marc:How am I going to find the space if this woman lives in my head?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or that if I'm always thinking of how do I get what I need by managing what she needs first.
Guest:Like if she's okay, I'm okay.
Guest:And that's how I grew up as a kid.
Guest:I really had to make sure she was calm because when she was calm, then I could be calm.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, that's the weird thing, but you don't talk to her now?
Marc:at the moment no for how long it's been about um well like i guess i don't know but i can't three or two no i i like say i don't know we had one conversation before the book came out so yeah because i've gone through periods with him where i where i don't talk to him and like in you know if i'm vulnerable i try not to engage with him but i'm still the guy unlike my brother who continues to resent him like i engage with this fucking guy you know i deal with him
Guest:And are you close to your brother?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I get it, but I still try to navigate him.
Guest:Well, what would happen if you didn't?
Marc:Well, it's just like what I notice is I don't that much, but I do need to, because I've had some success in my life and he kind of blew his, that there is like...
Marc:years previous i would be like well it's not my problem but now like you know i have a little more empathy and you know the biggest i just try to stay out of his sadness because he will try to draw me in and if i show vulnerability he will try to exploit it one way or the other you know we use the window if i have any vulnerability then he'll sort of exacerbate it to to keep a connection
Guest:Right.
Guest:But he doesn't require 24 hours of time and attention.
Marc:No, he used to.
Marc:He used to call me up and he's going to kill himself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The emotional manipulation.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, totally.
Marc:And that's still sort of there.
Marc:But I can manage it, but it makes me sad.
Guest:That it's still there?
Marc:Well, just like, you know, like I have to protect myself from it.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:And I could choose not to engage with them, but it's hard not to do that without seeming hostile.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So I try to do the kind of like mature check in with the old man thing.
Guest:Yeah, it's like parenting yourself.
Marc:Well, that's what you got to learn to do, right?
Marc:So what was the boundary situation though?
Marc:How like outside of having to, you know, kind of be the grown up in it, you know, how did she, you know, annihilate the boundaries?
Guest:well there there were so there are no boundaries right because you're just part of her yeah there was no yeah there was no and that that was something that i recognized later on yeah because i was in that situation not knowing what was appropriate or not and yeah i um i was i mean are you speaking about something in particular that you weren't
Marc:Well, I mean, the parts that I read or that you talked about a little bit elsewhere were these weird games and these... Oh, the being born.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's profoundly disturbing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But what was very...
Guest:I think trenchant about that, putting that story in the book was not because it was a disturbing story.
Guest:It wasn't there to be a disturbing story.
Guest:What was disturbing about it was that it wasn't disturbing to me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That what everybody would say was such a disturbing story to me was just everyday life.
Guest:Well, what was the game?
Guest:So the game was called Being Born.
Marc:And how old were you?
Guest:I was about six years old.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I should, just to put this in context, I talked about this story in therapy when I was in my 40s for the first time.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And my therapist, when I told her this story, like the look on her face was total shock and horror.
Guest:And she was like, have you not mentioned this?
Guest:It's like 20 years of therapy.
Guest:And I was like, I don't know.
Guest:It just didn't have any emotional resonance to me.
Guest:Because I think I was so conscious of my mother's.
Guest:role which was that for her it was a very playful and fun thing you know it wasn't uh it wasn't salacious or titillating sure right well it wasn't sexual abuse right right it was just completely inappropriate balance right
Marc:Yeah, I'm familiar with that.
Guest:So anyway, the game was that I would come home from school and she would say, let's recreate the happiest day of my life when I gave birth.
Guest:And I would get into bed with her and she would be naked and I would go under the sheet and still be in my school uniform.
Guest:And she would recreate giving birth.
Marc:And you'd pop out.
Guest:And she would, you know, do the heaves and the size and what on the count of three pop.
Guest:And then I would come out out of the sheet and she would, you know, rock me in her arms like I was an infant and kiss me.
Marc:And and then that was probably the only time she felt like she had complete control over you.
Guest:I think for her it was really just a fun game.
Guest:And he played it a lot.
Guest:Well, you know, for me it was an opportunity to have my mother's attention.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which was huge, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we played, one day she played it actually with a friend of mine who came over.
Guest:And then that friend wasn't ever allowed to come over again.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Why?
Guest:Well, she probably went home and said, you know... Oh, you mean from her end?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like her mother was probably like, what did you do at Ariel's house?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She's like, well, her mother got naked and we played being born.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was the end of that.
Guest:She's like, yeah, you're not going over there again.
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:I have a story about like they're... Like it seems like my parents are self-involved and as they were, were not...
Marc:My mother was very insecure.
Marc:And my father, obviously, narcissists at the core of it are paralyzingly insecure.
Marc:Almost empty in a way.
Marc:But there was a story that my mother thought was so funny was that one time when I was three years old, I fell and I hit my head on the table.
Marc:And I was crying.
Marc:And my mother felt terrible.
Marc:So what she did in that moment was she went and smashed her own head into the table so she could be in pain, like feel what I was feeling.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's so sweet.
Marc:It's so fucked up.
Guest:I totally understand why as a kid you would think that was like the most empathetic thing.
Marc:I imagine I was shocked.
Marc:I mean, I imagine she took it all away.
Marc:There was nothing comforting about it.
Marc:It was like the exact opposite.
Marc:I don't know how I responded to it, but I would imagine I'd be like, what the fuck?
Marc:Right.
Marc:I think the instinct should be like, come here, it'll be okay, it'll be okay.
Marc:Not like, well, now we're both fucked.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Now who helps us?
Guest:Right.
Guest:See, I'm so... My perception of that was she wanted to feel the pain you were feeling so that she and you could be one.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, but no one's helping the pain.
Marc:No, but you're looking at it from a logical perspective, which is totally... Right, she had an opportunity there to, you know, kind of move me through it and just decided to have no boundaries at all and hijack the situation.
Marc:Right.
Marc:With her fucking insanity.
Marc:Right.
Marc:She's gotten very contrite about it all and tries her hardest to behave properly now.
Guest:Does she have remorse?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Does that help you?
Marc:Sometimes.
Marc:The saddest part about all of it.
Marc:Really, for me, with, I don't know what role your father played in your life.
Marc:Where was he?
Guest:In Thailand.
Marc:Just avoiding everything?
Marc:They were married?
Guest:They were divorced when I was two, and he went back there, and I would spend time with him there.
Marc:Why was he there?
Marc:He worked for who?
Guest:He's a lawyer and when he met my mother he was working for the State Department in Hong Kong.
Guest:But he was living in Southeast Asia my whole life.
Guest:So I would spend part time in New York with her and I would have this respite where I would go spend time with her.
Marc:It was a relief?
Guest:It was.
Guest:Because I was away from the anxiety and the chaos.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And he knew about the anxiety and the chaos?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But he couldn't do anything about it.
Marc:Other than just be there for you when you were there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was powerless.
Marc:Well, I think the biggest regret I have is that I do not look to them for any sort of help.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:emotionally it's got to be a pretty dire situation that's very focused you know because like if i talk to my mother i'll act like my if i need help or i'm in some sort of pain or something i'll act like my father and you know just defy her to help me and then she can't and then i make her feel shitty and with him you know if i ask him for help then it just becomes this nightmare where i have to just you know disengage myself from him
Marc:So I just, there's no sort of like, you know, I can just call my parents.
Marc:It was never helpful.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Never like, you know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But that nurturing, which I think, you know, that's a loss.
Guest:Like you feel the loss.
Guest:I know.
Guest:You have to grieve for that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I believe you do, yeah.
Guest:Because that's what every kid should have as an essential.
Guest:I mean, people talk to me about, oh, I had this great life.
Guest:I grew up in Manhattan with all these famous people.
Guest:I just wanted to be able to feel safety and cared for.
Guest:and heard, those are the nutrients that a kid needs in order to really grow up and feel safe in the world.
Guest:And so I think when you recognize that you didn't have that, there's a period of time that you have to kind of, it's like a death.
Marc:Yeah, no, I agree, and I deal with it.
Marc:I know where the problems are.
Marc:I know that the intimacy stuff is difficult.
Marc:I know that trust is difficult.
Marc:I know all that stuff.
Marc:But knowing it and then... Transcending it, moving through it.
Marc:Yeah, it's hard because it's fucking scary because you don't have the tools for it.
Marc:You didn't have it.
Marc:You don't have nurturing wired into you and you don't have trust wired into you.
Marc:So it's a lot to ask from somebody sometimes.
Marc:It's a real pain in the ass, the wrestling, emotional wrestling match that has to go on just for you to feel safe for fucking five minutes.
Marc:I know.
Guest:You know, and then it just, it doesn't have traction.
Guest:It's a constant.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It doesn't stick.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It has to be.
Marc:You got to find somebody where they're like, okay, here we go.
Guest:Again.
Marc:Starting from square one.
Guest:Again.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But the trust, no, the trust thing is really, that's, that's the killer.
Guest:That's the killer.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, when you talk about, when you publicly talk about gaslighting, what is the arc of that conversation?
Marc:I mean, you know, you're talking about a relationship with your mother where your reality was canceled and destabilized to, you know, to supplement her impulses.
Marc:Yeah?
Yeah.
Guest:And by the way, she couldn't help herself.
Guest:I mean, that's where the compassion comes in.
Marc:Later.
Guest:Later, right.
Guest:And in the moment, I had no idea.
Marc:But how did that play out in your life?
Marc:I mean, how many relationships did you go through?
Guest:Did I burn through?
Marc:Well, I mean, what is the arc of that conversation?
Marc:I imagine you're doing a TED Talk that has some positive closure.
Marc:Isn't that the punchline of a TED talk?
Guest:Oh, the positive closure is the healthy detachment.
Guest:I think that you, well no, first of all, I should say when I did the talk, I wrote it like a writer.
Guest:And then what I learned in the process was that, and you're a performer, I'm not.
Guest:When you're speaking to people in an audience, you can't, it's a totally different type of writing.
Guest:You have to make connections for them, because they don't have time.
Guest:It's not like reading a book.
Guest:So the arc of that talk was the comment that was made to me by this stranger.
Guest:Well, he wasn't a stranger.
Guest:He'd been at my house when I was a kid at one of my mother's parties.
Guest:And I met him as an adult.
Guest:He's a writer.
Guest:who, when I went to go have the first interview I had with the man who became my editor at the Sunday Times magazine, he showed up at the end of that.
Marc:Just out of nowhere.
Guest:Well, he was having dinner with him.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:They were having dinner.
Marc:And did you have like a, like, oh my God, kind of?
Guest:No, I didn't recognize him.
Guest:I was introduced to him because the last time I'd seen him, I was five years old.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So my editor, Robin Morgan, introduced me to him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he later said to him, I'd always thought there were only two options for that little girl, suicide or murder.
Yeah.
Guest:It was a great line.
Guest:He'd seen what was going on.
Guest:And when I was told that he said that, I felt such validation because it was an observer who'd seen what I'd been living through.
Guest:So in the talk, I go into how this was the situation with gaslighting, but then at the end I said there were three options.
Guest:There was writing a book.
Guest:So that was the third option.
Guest:Suicide, murder, or creative expression.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And that's, I think, what saved me and what saves all of us who have such anger and turmoil that we live with from our childhood.
Guest:It's being able to express yourself and tell your story that gets you through it.
Marc:And also is a tremendous help to others.
Marc:i i think so because absolutely it makes people feel less alone right people suffer with this shit and they don't know what to do with it and you know they don't know how to identify it and they don't know you know that this might be why right they're having the problems they're having and sometimes it's key a window in a door right yeah well what kind of response are you getting to the book
Guest:People, it's been very gratifying because a lot of people have said that, first of all, I shouldn't be, but I'm surprised how many people have pernicious relationships with their parents.
Guest:And a lot of people do.
Guest:A lot of people go through it.
Guest:And the response has been great because they tell me it's helped them a lot and it's made them feel less alone.
Guest:And they always say, oh, my story wasn't as bad as yours.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Is that a good thing?
Guest:Is that a compliment?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:But I feel I'm still in the aftermath of it.
Guest:I feel like I did what I had to do, and now I don't know what else is as important.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, where am I going next?
Marc:Well, how does she react to it?
Marc:Now, you don't really identify her in the book, so that's why I'm not pressing you for a name.
Yeah.
Marc:What's her reaction to it?
Marc:Have you gleaned anything?
Marc:Have you heard?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Her reaction was very upset at first and then very apologetic and then very remorseful and then very angry.
Guest:It was as unpredictable as I predicted.
Marc:Did she make it about her?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but I think she, I think on some- I guess it was about her, so.
Guest:Yes, and on a deep level, she knows.
Guest:A level that she can't really talk about or access in a way that is useful to us, but she knows.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she had it too.
Guest:She had a horrible, horrible life.
Guest:She never got over it.
Guest:And she had a wonderful life and a horrible life.
Marc:It's always... Yeah, I just like sometimes it's weird.
Guest:It's never one thing.
Marc:Like the pain of moving through stuff and whatever relief you get or whatever clarity you get of acknowledging and sort of dealing with the wound or the trauma.
Marc:something stays the same.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:Well, I know a lot about myself and I know a lot of people go through things, but a lot of times you open all this stuff up and there's a relief to it, but once you really identify and own yourself, especially at the age that I'm at or you're at, you really get this moment where you're like, okay, so what do I want to do with my life?
Right.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Totally.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:That's done.
Marc:I figured that out.
Marc:So now let's start living.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's such a part of your identity.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I guess.
Guest:And then it's an identity crisis.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Whereas then you get people who just sort of, you know, stiff upper lip or, you know, just kind of like get on with it.
Marc:And they just live locked in that pattern without the investigation.
Marc:There's moments where I'm like, I don't know if that's terrible.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Right.
Guest:Some people are disabled.
Marc:I mean, emotionally disabled.
Marc:And I guess the I guess the real problem with that and like something I see, you know, my brother struggling with is that on some level, the responsibility, if you are able to have empathy or be a little bit of selflessness, is that, you know, you can your responsibility is to stop the cycle.
Marc:In the sense that if you do do the work and you do the vulnerability and open yourself up at the risk of that, once you do get to a place where you have some peace with it, that hopefully you don't treat people the same way or your children or whatever the fuck it is.
Guest:And you think of other people.
Marc:Right.
Guest:That's a big one.
Marc:Empathy was very hard for me.
Marc:Like I had it, but it was inverted in some weird way.
Marc:That wasn't like acknowledging separateness as much as it was like, oh man, I just thought about how you probably feel and I feel terrible.
Right.
Guest:You have to work at that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I can't hold the space and let you have your feelings.
Marc:I can take them and sponge them up and then make it about me.
Marc:But I can't give you your space.
Marc:But doing this podcast really helped me with that.
Marc:It made me do it.
Marc:It made you have empathy.
Marc:Well, it made me connect with it.
Marc:Like, I think it was there, but it was not it was not quite right.
Marc:You know, the ability to and I still talk over people or I'm quick to sort of absorb what they're feeling and, you know, and then, you know, make it about me.
Marc:You know, like I do do that.
Marc:but but i'm much more aware of like you know like just don't say anything it's okay you can just all you gotta do is be present for this right and that's enough right you know you're not gonna fix nothing here you're not gonna you know it's not your you know this isn't your life and they've been living it so you you don't have to there's no advice that has to be here you just have to hold the space and bear witness right right and that's helpful
Guest:And sometimes to say, oh, that must be really hard.
Marc:Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah, that's horrible.
Marc:Yeah, I get choked up.
Marc:But now it's for the right reasons.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Not because, like, God, if I wouldn't do that.
Guest:Like, how do I prepare for that not happening to me?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I don't do that.
Marc:It doesn't really happen.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So this is a bigger one, but forgiveness with your parents?
Marc:Sometimes.
Marc:I don't know how.
Marc:More than I used to.
Marc:You know, like, because I had to do, like, at some point I had to see them as people.
Marc:Without expectations.
Marc:And without the idea that they were going to show up for what they didn't or that they were going to change.
Marc:But just to really have that moment where you're like, that's who that person is.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I can accept that.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I guess that's sort of forgiveness.
Marc:In terms of how they treated me or what I became, I did all right.
Marc:I am emotionally crippled in some way.
Marc:But there's a lot worse there.
Guest:To me, I've been thinking about that a lot because people say, do you forgive her and all of this?
Guest:And I think compassion is really different than forgiveness.
Guest:I have compassion now.
Guest:I've moved through that anger.
Guest:I have compassion.
Guest:But forgiveness is different because it's opening a door that allows people, I think, to continue to hurt you to a certain extent.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:right it's trickier yeah it's trickier so well I mean but you can it's like forgiving somebody after they're dead or something like you know you can do then I mean like forgiveness does not have to be interactive right no that's true you can forgive someone without having to have to be engaging with them yeah we'll work on it alright thanks for coming okay thank you for having me yeah
Marc:So that was heavy.
Marc:Was it heavy or was it helpful?
Marc:You know, sometimes I don't know.
Marc:Sometimes they're one in the same.
Marc:Aren't they?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I need to meditate.
Marc:Let's play some meditative guitar.
Marc:A little bit of meditative guitar.
Marc:Let's go back to the electric.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Boomer lives!
Marc:Boomer lives!