Episode 812 - AJ Mendez Brooks / Fred Stoller
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuckadelics what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it i'm out in the world i'm in chicago
Marc:A city that I every time I come to, I like more and more.
Marc:I love this city.
Marc:I'm in this room in this hotel looking directly across at this gorgeous old, old, old apartment.
Marc:But I don't know.
Marc:It's a beautiful old building.
Marc:And I have those moments where I'm like, look at those windows.
Marc:I bet you life is better in there.
Marc:probably not if you've got an iphone if you've got access you have access to that roller coaster right in the palm of your hands where do you want to go today to hell and back you got it you don't even have to get out of bed so i'm working on another episode of easy that's joe swamberg's uh anthology series on netflix uh if some of you saw it last year i did one with um
Marc:Emily Ratajkowski and Jane Addams.
Marc:But this year it's a different story.
Marc:And I'm working with Michaela Watkins.
Marc:How is she not the best?
Marc:Jane Addams again.
Marc:I'm working with Kate Berlant, the comedian who I've only met once.
Marc:We're shooting today.
Marc:But it's been good.
Marc:It's been good.
Marc:I like being here.
Marc:And the shooting schedule is pretty easy.
Marc:And it's a great city.
Marc:I walked around.
Marc:Jane Addams coerced me, cajoled me, pressured me.
Marc:to buy a pair of fry boots.
Marc:Classics.
Marc:I don't know why in the back of my brain I was like, nah, fry boots, done.
Marc:Not my thing.
Marc:And for some reason, if the store is organized nicely enough, if the boutique is doing its job, you will put things on and think, how could I ever have not had these?
Marc:So that's going to happen.
Marc:Fry boots are going to happen on my feet.
Marc:They're happening.
Marc:They're happening as we speak, the fry boots.
Marc:But today on the show,
Marc:We have AJ Mendez Brooks.
Marc:You probably know her as AJ Lee.
Marc:If you are a wrestling fan, that is her name.
Marc:And many of you know her husband, CM Punk, Phil Brooks.
Marc:Many of you know that I will be on a wrestling show on Netflix called Glow.
Marc:The first major trailer with stuff in it is out there and available on the internet.
Marc:It looks pretty good.
Marc:Good pace.
Marc:I'm excited about it.
Marc:I know it sounds weird for me to say I'm excited about it.
Marc:I don't know what's going to happen.
Marc:I've only seen...
Marc:Five episodes of the thing.
Marc:I mean, I know how it ends and everything, but I don't know how at all.
Marc:It looks great, and I'm excited, and there's going to be sporadic wrestling-oriented interviews throughout the lead-up to the show.
Marc:But this one was really just about AJ's amazing new book about her struggles with some mental illness and some drugs and wrestling and child.
Marc:It's a full-on story, and she's pretty amazing.
Marc:And I was happy to talk to her.
Marc:And also before we talked to AJ, the always annoyed Fred Stoller stopped by.
Marc:Yeah, you know, every once in a while you got to check in with old Fred.
Marc:He's got a new Kindle single about the 1989 HBO Young Comedian special out, which it's pretty interesting because he was on it.
Marc:It's called Five Minutes to Kill.
Marc:You can get it on Amazon.
Marc:But I remember that show.
Marc:I remember those guys.
Marc:I remember all the people that were on that show.
Marc:I remember that I was not on it.
Marc:I also want to mention our friend Andy Kindler.
Marc:Those of you who know podcasts, who know comedy, you comedy nerds, those of you who know my TV show, if you're a comedy person, you know Andy Kindler.
Marc:And I needed to mention that Andy, my dear friend Andy, finally has a podcast to call his own.
Marc:If you listen to podcasts, you know that Andy is a podcast guest extraordinaire, and now he has his own place to do his Kindler thing.
Marc:That's a lot of Kindler.
Marc:It's called Thought Spiral, and you can get it now on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.
Marc:Andy and J. Elvis Weinstein from MST3K and Freaks and Geeks, they join forces weekly to solve the problems of the world and inevitably much smaller issues.
Marc:Go listen to the first episode of Thought Spiral today.
Marc:Now, do it now.
Marc:Get some Andy.
Marc:If your brain isn't working at a frenetic enough frequency, you might need some kindler in your life.
Marc:That's what I say.
Marc:Maybe he'll use that as a tag.
Marc:Just throw in my buddy Andy a little help.
Marc:You know, sometimes when I do this show, I don't know how to help.
Marc:I don't know what to do.
Marc:I know I can't see past my own insanity and fury and fear and whatnot, but every once in a while,
Marc:i get the email you know i get the email that uh that just uh you know it makes me feel like something you know something you know when everything is so overwhelming and then operating at such a an insane pace it's just this never-ending you know shit storm or tsunami or however you're looking at it whatever team you're on i mean it's it's a little exhausting and
Marc:And, you know, things get diminished.
Marc:Little things, quality of life things, just moments.
Marc:You know, if you have a cloud hanging over you, your brain is in the middle of chaos because you've engaged it.
Marc:You know, sometimes life...
Marc:Life gets lost in the undertow.
Marc:But, you know, every so often I get an email and I just wanted to share this because I it's exactly what this show can do.
Marc:And it makes me happy to know that these kind of things happen.
Marc:The subject line is Marin and Shakespeare in the classroom.
Marc:Hi, Mark.
Marc:I know enough about you being a fan that I think I can skip the Mr. Marin and go right to Mark.
Marc:I am a high school English teacher.
Marc:The fact of the matter is close to 90% of my students are Hispanic, many of whom are undocumented or have undocumented family members.
Marc:I am teaching a large group of students who are in quite literal peril in the age of Trump.
Marc:I get questions like,
Marc:My parents are undocumented.
Marc:Am I going to be okay?
Marc:My brother was arrested for possession of pot a couple years ago.
Marc:Will he be deported?
Marc:I do my best by saying, will he be deported?
Marc:I do my best by saying that California is a state that protects its immigrants, but I can't offer them false assurance.
Marc:Their families might be split up.
Marc:It's a fucking tough spot to be in.
Marc:I want to be honest with them, but that honesty can be so hard for them to hear.
Marc:I am not allowed to discuss my political beliefs, but I think it's morally my duty to teach all students, but specifically these students, about what the hell is happening in today's world so they are informed.
Marc:So I have to get creative.
Marc:I just heard your conversation with Sir Ian McKellen and specifically his beautiful monologue he read to you about strangers and refugees.
Marc:Oh, fuck yes.
Marc:That's my way in.
Marc:I've written a lesson where we use his monologue.
Marc:to talk about the dangers of discrimination, the dangers of fear of the other.
Marc:I tie in Lord of the Flies.
Marc:I connect it to Elie Wiesel's Knight.
Marc:Your experience with Sir Ian, I feel like I can be on a first-name basis with him as long as I have the sir in there, is the catalyst I've been searching for to allow me to help these students the best I can.
Marc:It allows me to talk frankly about what's happening.
Marc:with fucking William Shakespeare to back me up if anyone has a problem with my lessons.
Marc:The lessons are going well and I just want to let you know that you are directly helping kids who need to be helped now.
Marc:Thanks for that and thanks for everything else you do.
Marc:Best, Mike.
Marc:Yeah, well, I'm glad about all of that, and I'm glad that the power of Shakespeare has that power, and I was taught that face-to-face with Sir Ian McKellen, and I'm happy to hear that, if anything, there's some context, some historical context.
Marc:Some exploration of these types of hatreds and fears and horrors that really go back to the beginning of human beings.
Marc:Thanks for that email, man.
Marc:Seriously, I appreciate it.
Marc:All right, so Fred Stoller, what do you need to know?
Marc:If you listen to this show, you know Fred.
Marc:I love Fred.
Marc:I'm happy he's doing okay.
Marc:I'm happy he's doing this Kindle single thing.
Marc:And this one that's out now is about the 1989 HBO Young Comedian special called Five Minutes to Kill.
Marc:You can get it on Amazon.
Marc:And this is me and the inimitable Fred Stoller back in the garage.
Hey!
Guest:Fred yes how are you headphones on whatever you want buddy okay how you feeling I'm pretty good you know oh that makes things yeah okay is that all right yeah too loud yeah it is too loud yeah oh I think hold on hold on that's it yeah I'm always like the guy don't make trouble
Marc:What do you mean you don't make trouble?
Guest:No, you know, my favorite joke, you know, the Jewish, these two Jews about to be executed.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:One says to the other, maybe we should ask for a blindfold.
Guest:The other guy goes, Murray, don't make trouble.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's why, you know, like, hey, Mark's doing me a favor.
Guest:Don't ask about the volume.
Guest:Don't be nervy.
Guest:You know, that's why I haven't made it big.
Guest:The comics are nervy and I always get uncomfortable.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When people are pushing.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Trying to get free seats.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you know so yeah so you think that was the the liability i think so there's not entitlement when i used to headline i used to feel sorry for people that were waiting online an hour to see me as their weekend so that's not good comfort i feel sorry for them so wait now fred tell me about the success of the seinfeld book
Guest:my seinfeld year yeah yeah no it did well it was a kindle single yeah and it's um it was about my tumultuous right well yeah you're writing on seinfeld but how what's this amazon deal i didn't know they were doing you got a deal with them to do this one no a lot like a holding deal or anything no but i mean they paid you money
Guest:We'll see.
Guest:Yeah, I signed something.
Guest:Could I plug what it's called?
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:It's called Five Minutes to Kill, How the HBO Young Comedian Special Changed the Lives of 1989's Funniest Comics.
Guest:Oh, that's good.
Guest:So that was the year you were on.
Guest:Who was the lineup?
Guest:Okay, David Spade, Rob Schneider, Drake Sather, Warren Thomas, and Jan Karam.
Guest:Warren and- Don't give away too many endings.
Guest:It's a twist, but yeah.
Guest:Oh, there's a twist?
Guest:Well, but we know what happened.
Guest:Warren and Drake didn't end up well, ultimately.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:All right.
Guest:We gave it away, but that's okay.
Marc:What do you mean we didn't give anything away?
Marc:I'm just kidding.
Guest:I'm just kidding.
Guest:yeah their careers uh went down yes yes but that's what i thought actually i came up with the idea sort of because of you yeah i was listening to your podcast driving and rob schneider was the guest yeah and you said what was your big break he goes the 1989 young comedian special what the i was on that but what did i do wrong wait a minute why wasn't it my big break and it was david spade's big break
Guest:So I started thinking about it and I went, yeah, there's other people on it that wish they'd do whatever I do.
Guest:So I found it interesting.
Guest:I love all showbiz stories.
Guest:You probably do because you host this.
Guest:And this one, I think out of the Young Comedian Specials.
Guest:The six of us, all hopeful, had a very diverse trajectory of careers and lives.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I ran into Jan recently.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:She's still doing it.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:She's back.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And I loved Warren.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I knew Drake was very funny.
Marc:Warren was a force of nature.
Marc:We all know David Spade and Rob Schneider, of course, and you.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So basically, it's sort of like those.
Guest:I know you probably don't follow sports, I'm assuming.
Guest:Mm-mm.
Guest:But it's like those, what happened to the NCAA, five of some college and two became pros, one's a security guard, one got shot.
Guest:It's like that kind of story, which I love.
Guest:So basically, so how'd you put it together?
Guest:What was the process?
Guest:Well, I had to go out of my comfort zone and being- What, you mean outside?
Guest:Well, I-
Guest:I had to walk away from the grove.
Guest:Yes, I had to bug people, which I suck at and- You mean you suck at it intentionally.
Guest:No, I tried doing a podcast.
Guest:You can effortlessly bug people.
Guest:Yes, I'm annoying without thinking I'm being annoying.
Guest:You know, when I did your show, the IFC show, Andy Kindler was being a bully at lunch going, this guy's who?
Guest:He's the annoying guy.
Guest:The Jew, the Jew, the nebbish.
Guest:So he loved being someone he could bully that he thought was more Jewish than him.
Guest:I think it was tongue-in-cheek.
Guest:Okay, but he bullied me another time, but that's all right.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:The two of you, the perpetual neurotic spinning men, you know, bullying each other.
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:I don't bully him, but he was like- I'll tell you something.
Marc:I guess, you know what?
Marc:Andy can be a little righteous.
Marc:Yes, yes.
Marc:Very funny, but like when he's passionate about something.
Marc:But I have to believe that he's not honestly bullying you.
Guest:No, he's not wanting to hurt me and harmful, but he just... The show Bob's Burgers, they had pickups, so everyone was going one at a time.
Guest:Bob's Burgers, right.
Guest:You were both voices on that.
Guest:Yeah, I only did two.
Guest:He's a regular.
Guest:He plays it down.
Guest:All right, all right.
Guest:So he was hanging out there, and he wouldn't leave, even though his session was over.
Guest:He was schmoozing everyone.
Guest:And then I'm just sitting there, he goes, this guy's so annoying.
Guest:I go, Andy, you're the one schmoozing.
Guest:He goes, yeah, you're right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, Andy, you know, is great is that, you know, most people, when the cameras go on, that's when you turn it on.
Marc:When the cameras go on, Andy turns it off.
Guest:I did a few episodes of a sitcom with him and Bob Saget.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And this old character actor was going, God, you're so annoying.
Guest:Like, they would work, Paramount would have tours coming in, tours, and they'd be working the crowd.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Bob and.
Guest:And Andy, this one guy, just older, not Jerry Allback, Jerry, I forgot his name, but he was on The Sopranos.
Guest:He goes, you two, like they cared more about getting laughs from the tourists coming in than in their scenes.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:Andy's great with the crew.
Guest:But so I had to...
Marc:I felt like I was a detective.
Marc:Well, let me just say this before it gets out of hand.
Marc:I love Andy.
Marc:I had him on my show many times.
Marc:Obviously.
Marc:A very funny man.
Marc:And he's very aware of everything we're saying here.
Guest:Right, Andy?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:He's also a religious listener to this show.
Marc:Right, Andy?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It must be just terrible.
Marc:He's sitting there and he can't defend himself.
Marc:He can't go, oh, listen to the two of you guys doing the thing and the thing.
Guest:He was at a thing going, oh, Fred, what's your book called?
Guest:Chapter one, I'm nervous.
Guest:Chapter two, what if they don't like me?
Guest:Chapter three, I hope I didn't make a mistake.
Guest:So he's making... That's pretty good.
Guest:That's pretty good.
Guest:He got you pretty solid.
Guest:He got me.
Guest:So basically...
Guest:I had to interview relatives, managers, friends of all these people because this book, it's only one-sixth of me.
Guest:So if you find me annoying, there's other showbiz stories.
Guest:So I found it really fascinating to get out of my head and talk to people.
Guest:Mike, who'd you talk to?
Guest:I talked to...
Guest:Family members, great kids.
Guest:Oh, let's go each one.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:All right.
Guest:There's one I won't mention, right?
Guest:Because I would take everyone out to eat.
Guest:You know, I treat them.
Guest:They're giving me stuff for a book.
Guest:Right.
Guest:One of them...
Guest:I had to take him to Malibu, to Nobu, is it called?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And first he goes, I'm going to take it easy.
Guest:I'm just going to get appetizers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was $70.
Guest:And then he said, I got more information.
Guest:So I met him at a waffle place.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And so then he texted someone who set up a big interview.
Guest:He goes, now it's a real meal at Nobu's, not just the appetizers you owe me.
Guest:And this was straight out of a Seinfeld I wrote.
Guest:I don't know if you know Seinfeld, well, the Kenny Bannier episode.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Where Bruce Smirnoff in real life gave me an Armani suit and wanted a meal for it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he kept saying, I'm going to save the meal.
Guest:This doesn't count.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So this guy, he's a good guy.
Guest:But this is for your research.
Guest:Yes, I owe him another meal at Nobu's, he thinks.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:But he was friends of two of them.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:So he's a comic.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:So I said, you're being a schnur, this is the Jewish word.
Guest:He said, you got something out of this.
Guest:I should benefit too.
Guest:Because of me, you got a big interview.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So now a lot of people, young people under 30, didn't know about these HBO Young Comedian specials.
Guest:They were very important.
Guest:They broke Kennison, Dice, Seinfeld.
Guest:So it was weird just trying to get these interviews and bug people.
Guest:Did you talk to the people?
Guest:Did you talk to David Spade?
Guest:I talked to Schneider at length.
Guest:David, I got him, Norm had him on speakerphone when they, Norm would talk with, he would tour with Schneider and Spade.
Guest:So Spade, people, they thought the dirt, I'm not going for the pathology with Spade and Schneider, they're the contrast.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, the ones, hey, this is the good stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, so I didn't.
Marc:What do you mean, the contrast?
Guest:Meaning, this is the opulent life.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:These were the guys that... Right, that made it big.
Guest:That have the pools and the mansions and... Well, Spade's pretty open these days.
Guest:He is.
Guest:I should have stayed.
Marc:He gave me stuff.
Marc:So, now, ultimately, the destination of this piece, I imagine, is what did you find out about yourself in comparison to these people?
Marc:I mean, because it doesn't seem like... It seems pretty balanced how people ended up in a way.
Marc:Like, you know, some people, two people made it huge.
Marc:And three people, you know, for one reason or another, you know, three people made it big, made a lot of money.
Marc:And then a few didn't.
Guest:Well, I found out, which I'm giving away the ending, but I don't care.
Guest:No, it's not the ending.
Guest:But just in general.
Guest:What'd you find out about yourself?
Guest:That we're all basically... I learned a lot, even from talking to Drake's kids, about being proud of what you've done.
Guest:We're all really the same.
Guest:People are comic.
Guest:At first, I thought, these were the two, and these are the ones that didn't.
Guest:But when you find out in depth about everyone, I say...
Marc:frustrate you know we've all some of us have bigger houses deals but frustration level we're all the same you know i i learned that and also there's a lot of other factors that come into managing your talent into knowing what to do with it into having opportunities there's luck there's uh persistence there's uh you know uh you know genius and you know there's just you know cosmic circumstances
Guest:Yeah, I wanted to ask you.
Guest:Now, some people thought this was the best.
Guest:Some would say, no, no, it was a weak one.
Guest:A young comedian special.
Guest:Yours?
Guest:Yeah, because they like the more traditional.
Guest:But I'm from the era when these, it's called Five Minutes to Kill, because you got to kill.
Guest:And do you think that whole thing I grew up with in comedy, the five-minute, six-minute hunk you make it with is gone?
Guest:Because there are people who are very big comedians, and I go, what was their Carson thing?
Guest:Now I'm doing the voice.
Guest:Or what was their young comedian special?
Guest:So we're not in that era where five-minute hunks...
Marc:Nothing has the same traction as it did when there were three networks and one cable station.
Guest:Yeah, and in my era... Like, you're talking the whole country.
Guest:It was unheard of except for Carl and for everyone in the world to do an hour every year.
Guest:And it was so... You had to really hone those five minutes.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know.
Marc:Like, I don't know if that's necessarily true.
Marc:Like, it seems to me that...
Marc:I mean, for it to become a thing, like I think Louis sort of made it a thing.
Marc:You gotta do a new hour every year and Chris Rock as well.
Marc:But if you look at the guys who put out a lot of comedy records, there were plenty of guys that were doing a new hour or so every year or two.
Marc:Daffigan, yeah.
Marc:Even before that, you know, like guys who did, you know, the old comedy records, you know, like those comedy records were at least 35, 40 minutes, right?
Marc:Cheech and Chong, Bill Cosby, Steve Martin, Richard Pryor, all those guys that had put out multiple records.
Guest:But now there's about probably 30, 40 or 50 comics that have hours every year that aren't that big, but you know what I mean?
Marc:No, I know, because they need to generate, because I think audiences are less tolerant.
Marc:I mean, I think one of the reasons a lot of guys went down from the 80s was they never changed their hour.
Guest:Or because they were trained, or me included, in that very crisp...
Guest:I was curious, no, no, but like the five minute, joke, joke, joke, joke, joke.
Marc:Well, the five minute set was really for network television and now like it's still the same.
Marc:It's four and a half minutes now.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:Four and a half, five minutes for Fallon or I don't know what Colbert has, but even back then it was, but that was like a, wasn't a young comedian special like an eight?
Guest:Ours got a little less because what happened was there usually five people on it and
Guest:They really wanted to get Spade on.
Guest:He tried out twice.
Guest:He didn't get on.
Guest:And Dennis Miller, who hosted it, was really pushing Spade should be on it.
Guest:And they didn't want to bump any of the other five.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So they decided, let's put Spade on.
Guest:And they took a little bit of our time away.
Guest:Plus...
Guest:Dennis did a great 10-minute set.
Guest:He did something, a long opening 12-minute set.
Guest:Very solid.
Guest:Did you talk to him?
Guest:No.
Guest:I don't... I should have, yeah.
Guest:I wasn't nervy, yeah.
Guest:I kind of... Yeah, I felt... I learned from listening to the tapes why I don't do a podcast anymore.
Yeah.
Guest:Because I'm an asshole interrupting people and I go, I'd listen to them and go, fucking Fred, stop interrupting them.
Guest:You're interviewing them.
Guest:Let them talk.
Guest:Do you say that out loud?
Marc:Did I say it out loud?
Marc:During the interview, do you say, Fred, stop talking?
Marc:No, when I'd re-listen to them and transcribe them.
Marc:And you're saying that as you listen.
Guest:Yeah, if I was self-aware, some of them, I couldn't hear it because one woman wanted to go to a Korean steak thing where you sizzle it right there.
Guest:And it's shh.
Guest:And...
Guest:And I paid places to transcribe it.
Guest:It goes sizzling, sizzling on the transcriptions.
Guest:No, it does?
Guest:Yes, it was going sizzle, sizzle.
Guest:And so I had to... I wasted money paying for transcriptions, the worst place, because they got lazy.
Guest:Oh, that's the funniest thing.
Guest:They got lazy...
Guest:And so I'd have to listen to them a few times.
Guest:Wait, who got lazy?
Guest:The transcription places.
Guest:They got lazy where they didn't really... I'm thinking... I ended up rewinding and go, okay, this is what John Ross said.
Guest:He was good.
Guest:So it's out now.
Marc:It's called... Five Minutes to Kill.
Marc:I'm so happy for you.
Marc:I'm glad you're engaged and having a good time and out there talking to people.
Marc:It's good for you just to talk to people.
Guest:It really, again, if I wasn't a... Yeah, I see why you do podcasts.
Guest:You get out of your head.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yes, and it really... There were some people I became friends with.
Guest:The one guy until he demanded the Nobu, we hung out.
Guest:The Nobu.
Guest:Nobu, it's called.
Guest:We hung out a little bit.
Guest:He became kind of...
Guest:well you know you know but i mean comics are still comics but this i i became friends with drake say there's kids uh-huh i'm gonna play disc golf with one of them oh good yeah um they're doing okay they are so good good that's good they are really good good so hey rob schneider yeah i know i know you're wrapping this up but um i get that neurotic look but um you take all the time you want what about rob
Guest:It was interesting talking to him.
Guest:Chris rocked a little bit.
Guest:Eddie Murphy, I didn't talk to him about this, but I did a part in a movie with him I was cut from.
Guest:And they still think their best days were the 80s.
Guest:I'm talking to...
Guest:Eddie's musing about.
Guest:We had youth and Schneider, the 80s, the comedy boom at San Francisco.
Guest:And we're going, Rob, you're starring in movies.
Guest:But they muse about.
Guest:To me, those weren't the good old days.
Marc:right well no it's interesting how you know for me neither my depression was the worst in the 20s i was very unhappy and sweaty and on drugs and and and i was angry and bitter and well yeah i mean i guess it goes but i i guess that's the liability of being because with comedy it's very hard to hold on to the mantle you know like if you have a big success it's hard to evolve that into a career that that sustains itself so those guys were rock stars
Guest:I mean, sometimes if they didn't think of what to do next or they thought it's going to be forever and they.
Marc:Well, I mean, we say, well, I mean, I don't know any of us do that very well.
Marc:The what to do next.
Marc:The guys who are really calculating and you know who are the smartest guys, the guys who started with us and got into writing.
Marc:They're the smartest.
Guest:That I started with that were very average and became multi-millionaires writing that if you saw their act- But they knew that though.
Marc:It wasn't a liability.
Marc:They were like, I have a talent.
Marc:I'm not going to put all my eggs in this fucking ridiculous basket of becoming a comedy star.
Marc:Use my talent the other way.
Guest:A lot of us didn't think the comedy boom would end.
Guest:There were guys in New York, very funny guys you never heard of.
Guest:that when I talk about Rob Schneider and Rock, loving those days, or Murphy, they would drink top shelf all night long for free at the catch, screw women, sleep till four in the afternoon.
Guest:So a lot of them, yes, and they thought they were Rock, so there was no real reason for them to think, yes, so those were the best days of their lives.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:You know, then you get, you drink all night.
Guest:Not that I did.
Guest:I don't drink in New York.
Guest:Then you come to a place like the ice house and you get these like ski ball tickets for a drink, you know, those little tickets.
Guest:And I remember the last time I'm there, I go, could I have my drink tickets?
Guest:The guy goes, I gave them to you.
Guest:I'm thinking, I'm not like a con man trying to get free drinks.
Guest:I don't remember getting them.
Guest:You know, did you find in your pocket?
Guest:Oh yeah, a little ripped orange thing that you could get a Diet Coke with.
Marc:That's the big payoff, right?
Guest:Yes, you get like a coupon.
Marc:Some places you can get your own soda.
Guest:Yeah, so it's... You're doing good, though.
Guest:I am.
Guest:I'm happiest.
Guest:I don't know why I'm showing you paper like, hey, being creative.
Guest:Look at that paper.
Guest:Yeah, I had notes.
Marc:We covered everything.
Guest:Yeah, you... Mark.
Guest:What?
Guest:I'm not going to make the mistake I made before when people are menschers like you.
Guest:When someone is a good guy, then I go, why is this guy an asshole?
Guest:Why did this guy not return my email?
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:Do you ever do that when someone's such a nice guy?
Marc:Do I ever do that?
Marc:Of course I do that.
Guest:Like, why not just go, this guy's a mensch, this guy's a mensch, rather than go, why is this guy...
Marc:Yeah, he may be a mensch, but he still fucked me.
Guest:I saw him on a bus.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I'm saying not you.
Guest:I harp on the other guy that's not a mensch.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, right, right.
Marc:Yeah, because it's more exciting to be angry.
Marc:I guess.
Guest:I mean, it keeps your brain active.
Guest:I'm more angry at myself.
Guest:That cliche, no one has beaten me up, but I'm better.
Marc:Yeah, I just wrote a line, but I'm sure you probably did the joke already.
Marc:If anyone says they're going to kick my ass, I'd just say, like, I'm on it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I used to do these weird non-sequitur lines.
Guest:I used to go, I hate my guts.
Marc:And sometimes I go, oh.
Marc:So it doesn't get the laugh.
Marc:It's very hard sometimes when you do self-deprecating humor that there's just, it's a very fine veneer between funny and sad.
Marc:And if you don't pull it off, if you're just sad, it becomes more of a chore for the audience.
Guest:Yeah, I go, I'm all right.
Guest:Or stuff about my mother I write about, which is true, but they go, this makes me uncomfortable.
Guest:This is too sad.
Guest:I go, what I'm laughing about.
Guest:It's so ridiculous.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Sometimes it's a hard sell.
Marc:I've had that too.
Marc:Also speaking about my mother, I'm like, this has to be funny.
Marc:If it's not funny, I'm in trouble.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because if I can't disarm it by making it funny, it'd be a disaster.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But to me, to me, what's funny is it's so perverse.
Guest:It's so the pathology of how negative, how when I was a kid, this is true.
Guest:It's not even in my act.
Guest:I wanted to get a job at Burger King.
Guest:She goes, yeah, they're waiting for you.
Guest:She really said that.
Marc:Not real supportive, huh?
Guest:Well, she said she would live vicariously through me.
Guest:And she said when I was growing up, she was reliving the nightmare of school through me.
Guest:So she was instilling in me that life growing up is a nightmare because she was reliving it.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:But I don't mean to make people feel uncomfortable.
Guest:I just think I laugh at how demented it was.
Marc:Well, I love seeing you.
Marc:Mark, thank you.
Marc:Thanks for coming.
Marc:Can we wrap up now or no?
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:Sizzle, sizzle.
Guest:Please, please.
Marc:Sizzle, sizzle.
Marc:Please.
Marc:That's a great story.
Marc:Fred is like being on an exciting, very neurotic, not too scary amusement park ride.
Marc:that's enjoyable.
Marc:But, but sometimes you're kind, you know, sometimes it's like, wow, but that was just enough of that.
Marc:And that's not an insult, Fred.
Marc:So relax, will you?
Marc:So wrestling, many of you have, uh, have moved through with me.
Marc:My, uh, my, uh,
Marc:education, my being educated about wrestling, which began with, I think, years ago with Mick Foley a bit, and my producer, Brendan McDonald, is a wrestling fan.
Marc:I've been schooled without having been immersed in the form.
Marc:CM Punk, Colt Cabana, these guys helped me through.
Marc:CM Punk did some stuff on my show.
Marc:Marin, he's a good guy, good friend, and now I'm on a wrestling show, a comedy based on
Marc:women's wrestlers and this is the first time I've sat down had a long conversation with a woman who is a wrestler AJ Lee as many of you know her AJ Mendez Brooks is her real name her memoir Crazy is My Superpower is available now wherever you get books and I really had a nice time hanging out with her this is me and AJ Lee talking in the garage
Marc:Do you want to move over so I can see you?
Guest:Yeah, that might be helpful.
Marc:Well, I had two people in here.
Marc:I didn't get it rounded.
Marc:I rarely have two people.
Guest:Who did you have?
Marc:The creators of the show that I do, The Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Marc:The two women that created the TV show.
Guest:Oh, that's awesome.
Marc:I wonder how your community is going to react to it.
Guest:Yeah, I think there's like a special love in people's hearts for GLOW.
Marc:Right, but it's not.
Marc:The show is fictionalized.
Marc:All they really got the rights to was the name GLOW.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Okay.
Marc:So I think there's some people involved that are going to be like, fuck them.
Yeah.
Guest:I think there's always, you know, when we see like a bad clothesline or something like that, we get like very snooty about it.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Because we know the technique that you're supposed to have.
Guest:And there's definitely a, you know.
Marc:Well, Chavo.
Marc:Do you know Chavo?
Guest:I do know Chavo.
Guest:He's working on it, right?
Marc:He trained them.
Guest:See, then you're probably good.
Marc:He trained all the girls.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:All the women.
Guest:He's amazing.
Guest:So you're probably.
Marc:He is amazing.
Marc:And he comes from a wrestling family, right?
Marc:Because I, look.
Marc:I talked to your husband about this.
Marc:He tried to educate me on wrestling.
Marc:Now, since I've talked to Punk and done an actual wrestling show, I still know not enough about wrestling.
Guest:Right.
Guest:About the history or about the technique and stuff involved?
Marc:I know a little bit more about the technique.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:But I think basically my problem is that it wasn't my childhood thing.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Like my producer was a wrestling kid.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Okay, and you were a wrestling kid.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah, it like it was important to you But when you hear someone like the name Chavo Guerrero, right?
Marc:What I mean, what do you know about that guy?
Guest:Like you just know that he's like this historic guy for for if like in the industry, you know him as like a pure Like a pure wrestler like there's some people who are just
Marc:so talented like they are just like they are wrestling right kind of personified yeah so him and his entire family when I heard that he was going to be like teaching right like that makes sense like that's the kind of person you want to learn from right or like there's there's sort of this sort of old-timey roadshow of wrestling that's been going on for like a hundred years right and that you know WWE is the sort of the the utmost amplification of those concepts
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And it did start in the carnivals.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So but that that becomes then it's a full on circus.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But that stuff that they're doing is still a kind of has that like the carnivals in town kind of.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You always feel like you're running away with the circus when you go on the road.
Guest:Really?
Marc:No matter at no matter at what level.
Guest:Yeah, oh, definitely.
Guest:Because you're always, you know, you fit as many people as you can into a car, and you are in a different city every night, and you drive 300 miles every night to the next town.
Marc:That's with the Worldwide Wrestling Foundation?
Guest:Yeah, and you drive yourself.
Marc:So even at the beginning of that, when you came in when it was already, like, big deal shit, it was still getting on a bus with a few people?
Guest:You are in your own rental car, and you pay for your own rental car.
Guest:What is that, McMahon?
Marc:It really rips you off at all levels, doesn't it?
Marc:That guy's really made a fortune off you guys.
Marc:You gotta rent your own car?
Guest:I mean, yeah, you pay for your own hotel room.
Marc:You pay for your own, but is it part of the deal?
Guest:Yeah, because you're technically like independent contractors.
Marc:Right, okay, so you get an all-in deal and you gotta cover your car.
Guest:Yeah, but you can't work anywhere else, so you're technically not that independent of a contractor, but you get paid well if you know how to negotiate.
Marc:I don't know why I'm acting so surprised.
Marc:I just did a tour.
Marc:I'm in the middle of one.
Marc:I rent cars where I go.
Marc:And sometimes you'll drive the four hours as opposed to flying because why fly when you can drive?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Always.
Guest:Always drive instead of flying.
Guest:It's just such a soul suck to go through the airport.
Marc:Yeah, and it's actually sort of a nourishing, it's sort of a soul enhancer to drive.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like meditative.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Unless you're doing it at like three in the morning and it's just like you and another girl in the car and you're like, I hope I don't die tonight.
Guest:Then that's a little rough.
Marc:This is not the night to die.
Yeah.
Marc:But you won the championship three times?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Now, are you retired?
Guest:I am retired now, yeah.
Guest:I've been retired for the two years it took me to finish this whole book, so yeah.
Marc:Because the thing about the book, outside of it being a memoir,
Marc:It sort of serves also as a there's a little bit of cautionary tale.
Marc:There's a little self-help to it.
Marc:And there, you know, there's a transcendence of, you know, tremendous struggle, both mentally and professionally.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And advice.
Guest:I hope so.
Marc:So it kind of covers all the bases for who do you think your market is?
Marc:Lost girls like yourself?
Guest:I mean, I hope so.
Guest:Like my goal was to in writing, it was sort of thinking about who I was when I was kind of lost and alone and young and looking for anybody to help me out.
Guest:And so I kind of want to help that if I could go back in time and like tell her, like, it's going to be OK.
Guest:You can be a wrestler.
Guest:You can fight your physically fight your way out of this.
Guest:So it's sort of like for me as a young girl and for girls that are similar to
Guest:But the really cool thing doing these signings lately have been like there's like grown men and grown women and elderly people and like really, really young kids that I didn't even know knew me on TV that are just connecting to the message of mental health.
Guest:And some people who are like, I don't even watch you in wrestling.
Guest:But, you know, I think it's cool that you're talking about this and trying to break the stigma.
Guest:So it's it's kind of reaching a wide range.
Marc:The stigma of bipolar disorder.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:yeah that's a heavy one my dad's a bit of the bipolar really well yeah he is like the diagnosis seems to shift with him to accommodate right right i'm familiar with that his desire to not take medicine yeah that happens that happens for sure uh you know because that that mania is so good right
Guest:Yeah, that's the thing.
Guest:And a lot of people who are creative types like really enjoy the mania because sometimes you really do just you're on cloud nine and you think you can do everything, you know, under the sun and you can lift a car if you tried.
Guest:But then it sort of can get dangerous when you're like, I'm going to, you know, spend all my money on like online shopping and my family's money and my family.
Marc:I'm going to get into a bad business deal.
Marc:I'm going to gamble a little bit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then it's, you know, it's a very slippery slope.
Guest:And, you know, between that and like running into traffic because you're invincible.
Guest:And, you know, it's it's a little it can get scary.
Marc:How far were your poles apart?
Marc:I mean, how did you have psychotic breaks?
Guest:So there's like bipolar 1 and bipolar 2.
Guest:Bipolar 1 is the one that has like more of the psychotic breaks.
Guest:And when I was very young and I talk about a little bit like about an instance that scared me, I think I did identify more with bipolar 1 because I would...
Guest:There were sort of like delusions, I think, when I was younger.
Marc:What classifies as a delusion?
Marc:Because I'm usually in one.
Marc:I might be having one now.
Guest:Sometimes you don't know if you're having it.
Guest:I think it would just be like kind of paranoid delusions.
Guest:And I talk about a moment when my family of five was like living in one motel room, like sharing a bed.
Marc:I'm already paranoid.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Just that amount of information.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I'm terrified.
Marc:We're all in trouble.
Guest:Seriously.
Guest:And I think I was freaked out about looking into a mirror.
Guest:And to me, I was like, oh, there's another dimension in the mirror.
Guest:And that's a different...
Guest:AJ, that's not me.
Guest:And so I would have kind of moments like that growing up where it was first it had its onset.
Guest:But as I get older, my diagnosis was bipolar two.
Guest:So it's a little bit more common.
Marc:Yeah, because I think it's sort of a fantasy thing, too.
Marc:Like, you know, where does that lead?
Marc:It looks like a much more quiet and controlled place.
Guest:Yeah, I definitely like that to me, escaping to the fantasy worlds was my only way out as a child for sure.
Marc:Well, what was that?
Marc:What was the situation?
Marc:I mean, you know, you seem pretty well adjusted now in the four minutes that I've known you.
Marc:I would think she's got her shit together.
Marc:But I kind of want to backtrack, though, from the three championships and the character, because you fought under the name AJ Lee, and that was always who you were, right?
Marc:But my understanding of wrestling, because I've talked to Mick Foley, I've talked to Colt, I've talked to Punk, but someone like Mick...
Marc:Wasn't Mick Foley like three or four?
Guest:Mick Foley definitely was.
Guest:Mankind.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Dude Love.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like just name-wise, like legally, sometimes people would own the copyright to their name.
Guest:Like Phil owns CM Punk.
Guest:And so he's always been that.
Guest:But sometimes they would, well, most of the time they try to give you a new name so they can own it.
Guest:And so you have to pick your new name.
Guest:And mine was AJ Lee because a voice actress in an anime's last name was Lee.
Guest:And I loved her.
Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And from the get go, like once you got in, you were sort of the kind of crazy diva or girlfriend or stalker or just like psycho chick.
Guest:Yeah, I think, you know, there was a standard of like all the girls were like Pamela Anderson, like perfect, curvy, like sex pots.
Guest:And then I wasn't.
Guest:And so the idea was, OK, well, then what do we do with her?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also you're tiny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And if they were maybe like really jacked and like, you know, these Amazonian goddesses and I'm not.
Yeah.
Guest:And so it was like, OK, well, I don't know where to put her.
Guest:And so it was I was a very geeky character, which I am in real life.
Guest:But so they kind of took inspiration from that.
Guest:And then it just became into, OK, well, you would probably stalk guys because, you know, it's always going to be like an unrequited love situation with you.
Guest:You're the nerdy one.
Marc:They're pitching you this stuff.
Marc:You sit in a room with Vince.
Marc:How does this happen?
Guest:It could be like a bunch of different people.
Marc:So there's a whole board of creators.
Guest:yeah there's like writers and they pitch their storylines and he picks it like which ones he want right he wants um and there was one writer kevin eck who was like okay we're gonna do like this revenge of the nerds uh love storyline with with you and one of the other guys who's really nerdy um and then that just it was right place right time they needed uh characters to be put into the main event scene and the guy i was with um they pushed him to the main event scene i just happened to be along for the ride and got really lucky and
Marc:Because you were part of the story.
Guest:Yeah, because I was already part of it.
Guest:And then it was, you know, how do we keep this going?
Guest:And so I, you know, turned to a crazy stalker.
Marc:So that's really how it starts.
Marc:It starts with stories.
Marc:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:And they've got their cast of characters, their Marvel universe, their WWE universe of characters.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And how do we get them all engaged and bring them back or turn them into bad guys or good guys?
Marc:Because that happens in a career.
Marc:You can be a heel and a face, right?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Yeah, and I've been both.
Marc:But you're still AJ Lee.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But AJ Lee's somehow gone bad.
Guest:Yes, yeah.
Marc:And then gone good.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I imagine your fighting style is sort of like when a cat attacks a horse.
Guest:That's so accurate.
Yeah.
Marc:Like when you see those wildlife videos and you just see these giant animals and then like the leopard is going to take down a giraffe and it's just like on the back and it's just like, oh, she's going to annoy me to death.
Guest:That's kind of my MO in life is just to annoy people to death.
Guest:Is it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But yeah, definitely.
Guest:You know, I was never going to throw girls around, like overpower them or like, you know, be the jacked one.
Guest:And so I had to.
Guest:You're pretty jacked.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:I had to be very scrappy and, you know, sort of, you know, shyster and, you know, and throw myself on people.
Guest:And that was like my finishing move was like kind of wrapping myself around.
Marc:Like your neck, like a scarf.
Marc:Like just like this barnacle.
Guest:Yes, very much.
Guest:Very much.
Marc:This aggressive parasite that you can't shake off.
Guest:That's how my husband refers to me.
Marc:How sweet, you and Phil.
Marc:Okay, so I guess why I wanted to start there and the success you had, and now that you're out in the world kind of exploring and sharing your experience as somebody who had real problems, that the character that you created was sort of a caricature of those problems.
Guest:Yeah, I think you definitely and that was so they say like the best wrestling characters are just a an exaggerated version of yourself.
Guest:And I sort of stumbled into this character that was this exaggerated version of myself by accident because nobody knew I was bipolar.
Guest:Did you?
Guest:I knew I was bipolar when I was like 1920.
Guest:OK.
Guest:And so it was kind of the secret that I, you know, didn't tell anybody and was ashamed of.
Guest:And then I was this crazy chick character on TV.
Guest:And I thought that was my way to sort of hide in plain sight.
Guest:And every bad instinct I would get with my bipolar, I was like, oh, let me just put that on camera.
Guest:And maybe this character will come off like really truthful.
Guest:Yeah, amp it up a little.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Like your impulses that you were like, they're not do that unless I do it as AJ Lee.
Guest:Yeah, it was live on TV.
Guest:Yeah, it was therapy for sure.
Marc:That's inactive too and exhausting.
Marc:Exercise is always good.
Guest:Yes, definitely.
Guest:Definitely.
Marc:All right, so now going back, how were you in a family?
Marc:There's four kids?
Guest:Three kids and a giant dog.
Guest:Three kids and two parents.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:That were together.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:Now how do you end up in a hotel room?
Marc:I mean, what was the story?
Marc:Where are you from?
Guest:So we lived in New Jersey, sort of all over New Jersey.
Marc:Really?
Marc:What parts?
Marc:I'm from New Jersey.
Guest:Northern New Jersey, like Hudson County.
Marc:I'm from Morris County.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:So you're not too far.
Marc:Pompton Lakes.
Marc:My mother's from Pompton Lakes and my dad's from Jersey City.
Guest:Jersey City.
Guest:I lived in Jersey City.
Marc:Where's your family from?
Guest:They're from Puerto Rico.
Marc:Both your parents?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Were born in Puerto Rico?
Guest:They were born in New York, but their family's born in Puerto Rico and they live in Puerto Rico now.
Marc:So what was the story with the old man?
Marc:What was he up to?
Guest:So my parents just had like odd jobs, you know, they never really had a solid career path.
Guest:And so we just became sort of gypsies.
Guest:And my dad was like a mechanic or a security guard or, you know, a bellhop or whatever he could really.
Marc:Trying to get by.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so that made us, you know, kind of go from place to place and get evicted like more than 20 times.
Marc:So not having money, not managing money.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:A tall order.
Marc:How are you the youngest, oldest person?
Guest:I'm the youngest, but I call myself the mom.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:How'd the other ones turn out?
Guest:They're good.
Guest:I mean, they're both married, but I think I still feel like the caretaker of everyone.
Marc:So there was chaos.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, my parents had kids when they were like 16, 15.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So they were kids raising kids.
Marc:I don't know why I always say really like that.
Marc:Like, why wouldn't I believe you?
Marc:I think it's like, wow.
Guest:What if the answer was like, no, not really.
Marc:I knew it.
Marc:I knew it.
Marc:So your mom was 15?
Guest:My dad was 15.
Guest:My mom was 16 when they started having kids.
Guest:So they had to learn fast.
Guest:They were kids raising kids.
Guest:So like so many of the things that were the first time I was going through them, school-wise or whatever, it was their first time too for a lot of it.
Marc:Well, they were, like, 30 when you were, like, 10?
Marc:I can't imagine that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, my mom would, like, drop me off at school, and people would be like, girls, get to class.
Guest:And that's my mom.
Marc:And she was like, thank you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:There's a lot of that.
Marc:But where was the, like, in order for you to...
Marc:I like it seems to me that if you're the mom that there must have been like some serious chaos because like you're going to go either way.
Marc:Like if you're if you're the kid of alcoholism or insanity, either you're going to be insane or you're going to be the one.
Marc:I can I can make it better.
Marc:It's going to everything's going to be good.
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:You were that one.
Guest:I was definitely the one that stressed the most.
Guest:I think everyone was like, we'll be fine.
Guest:And I was like, okay, we're not going to be fine.
Guest:We have to fix this.
Guest:I will fix this now.
Guest:And I was like eight.
Guest:So I definitely went through my phase of being insane and breaking and going to absolute rock bottom and then kind of had to.
Marc:When you were a kid?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, teens.
Marc:But where does it come from?
Marc:What were they up to?
Marc:What was your parents doing?
Guest:So my mother was undiagnosed bipolar for, I mean, as long as I can remember, but got diagnosed at around 30 something maybe.
Guest:And then medicated or no?
Guest:And then medicated.
Guest:She's medicated now.
Marc:She stay on it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thank God.
Guest:But it took a while.
Guest:To get it right?
Guest:To get it right.
Guest:It does take a while to find the right formula.
Guest:And it took a while for her to just get the treatment.
Marc:Now, when you were growing up, how did that manifest itself before diagnosis?
Marc:I mean, what was her behavior like before you knew what it was?
Marc:It must have been just like, what was the deal?
Marc:In bed for a long time?
Guest:There are definitely days like that, but I always say that bipolar disorder takes who you are and it kind of distorts it into something different.
Guest:It's sort of like dark and twisted.
Guest:And that's not you, but it's it comes from a core of something that is you.
Guest:And so I was like the youngest one and like the you know, I was sick.
Guest:And so because she worried about me so much, I became like the object of like her aggression.
Guest:And we had a very you're the one draining her.
Guest:Yeah, and it was a weird, unhealthy relationship where she was just very emotionally and physically abusive toward me in a weird way to try to protect me and fix me so I wouldn't become her.
Marc:Really?
Marc:She was aware of that?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:It was very much, you know, I look like her.
Guest:I look just like her.
Marc:Because sometimes it's that they're so self-involved that if you're feeling bad and they're feeling good, they take it as some sort of attack.
Marc:It's like, why do you got to be feeling shitty on my good day?
Guest:right or vice versa if you're happy and they're sad they're like fuck you yeah because i think that's a you know i grew up with some of that that's a narcissistic thing and i think the bipolars have a little of that yeah you know that it's about their needs right then right and that's the hard thing like i think it's hard for the person who is bipolar but it's so hard for the people around them who are trying to just live with that um especially unmedicated what's the old man doing
Guest:Um, he is trying to get by and he's drinking and, um, you know, and I think like they kind of would spend money for that was supposed to be on rent on other things.
Guest:Partying.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, um,
Guest:And I never really blamed... When I was younger, I was angry.
Guest:I was like older.
Guest:I was like, okay, they didn't have childhood.
Guest:So they were like, okay, now we can have fun.
Guest:And so I think we were the parents to them.
Marc:No, yeah, I know, yeah.
Guest:It's rough.
Guest:We'd get everyone to bed on time.
Marc:Were they any good at discipline or making decisions or doing any of that stuff?
Guest:Oh, gosh.
Guest:I mean...
Marc:My parents were terrible at it.
Marc:They'd be like, I'd ask them if I could go somewhere and my mom would be like, do you want me to say no?
Marc:I'm like, wait, I thought you were in charge.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:I think they were, it was a long time where they were too strict.
Guest:And it was, you know, like if you, they wanted to kind of keep us pure and like untainted by the world for as long as possible.
Marc:How do they do that when they're moving from hotel room to New Jersey place over and over again?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when I'm, you know, you're like the, you know, around drug dealers and, you know.
Marc:Oh, they were hanging out the house?
Guest:Yeah, they're around.
Guest:I stabbed someone.
Guest:What?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:There's a story in the book about somebody that was like in that circle that knew my dad was in that sort of drug circle and came to the house looking for him and looking for money.
Guest:And I had to stab him through a window.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Your dad wasn't home?
Guest:No one's home.
Guest:They left me on Christmas Eve.
Marc:Where'd you get him?
Guest:In the hand.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Did it get him away?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And cops came and my pit bull was going crazy.
Marc:You had a pit bull when you were a kid?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was a little... How old were you?
Guest:Gosh, at the time, 13, 14 maybe?
Marc:You had a pit bull and a knife.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And those were your babysitters.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Those were Puerto Rican babysitters.
Yeah.
Marc:You got the dog.
Marc:There's the knife.
Marc:We'll be home later.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:It worked.
Guest:It worked.
Guest:And it made me tougher.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:But you said you were sickly?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When I was really young, I was just the tiniest little thing and I was born premature.
Guest:And so those are just like many of the things that were like, okay, you're clearly never going to be an athlete.
Yeah.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I think that was just a fun thing to say, okay, let me challenge that.
Guest:I can go from being the sickest person and the weakest, feeling so weak and tiny.
Marc:But did you feel depressed and awful and bleak?
Marc:It seems like there's a lot of excitement around.
Yeah.
Guest:I was never bored, that's for sure.
Guest:The depression started to kind of manifest in me when I was getting ready to go to college and I was like 17.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So when did you start?
Marc:What did you do?
Marc:Why wrestling?
Marc:When did you start to see that world as something you enjoyed or like where you claim you're a nerd?
Marc:I mean, I guess you are.
Marc:Are you?
Marc:Yeah, I think for me... Yeah, what means nerd to you?
Guest:Well, to me, I think that it used to be this derogatory term.
Guest:And there's so many of us that grew up and kind of had to be ashamed of that.
Guest:The things that we were into, it was a bad thing.
Guest:It was embarrassing to like comic books and video games and anime.
Marc:Was that your things?
Guest:Yeah, they were.
Marc:How'd you get hip to those?
Marc:Your brother's?
Guest:I like copied anything my brother did and and then fell in love with it.
Guest:And for me, it was kind of just a way to get out of the real world and feel strong in something.
Guest:You know, there were girls that were like powerful in these things.
Marc:Well, how old were you when you started reading that stuff?
Guest:Probably like 10, maybe a little younger.
Marc:And your brother, he was into it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He was like a video game comic book guy?
Guest:Yeah, he was the gateway.
Guest:And wrestling?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And in wrestling, it was like, oh, they're real life superheroes.
Guest:And so I was 12 when I decided I was going to do it.
Marc:Well, who were your comic book heroes?
Guest:I loved Jean Grey.
Guest:I loved her so much.
Guest:The Dark Phoenix saga was like something that I would recreate with my Barbie dolls.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, like recreate the suicide scene.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like kids do.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah, so I really enjoyed her.
Guest:I loved Fantastic Four.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I loved Spider-Man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then video games became the next passage.
Guest:And it was like Resident Evil and Final Fantasy and Metal Gear Solid.
Guest:And then I found wrestling and it was like, oh, these people are real.
Marc:That was the transition.
Guest:Yeah, that was definitely how it went.
Marc:So you watched it on TV and you're like,
Marc:Look at those costumes.
Marc:Look at them doing that shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's basically these characters come to life.
Marc:Larger than life, but human.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you still play video games?
Guest:I do, yeah.
Marc:Do you and Phil sit around and play video games?
Guest:He doesn't play, but he watches me play.
Guest:That's his peaceful time.
Marc:Oh, he meditates by watching you play video games?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He kind of spaces out, and he'll nap, and I'll just play video games for four hours.
Marc:Do you ever spar?
Marc:No.
Guest:No, no, he will like it randomly in the street, like pick me up and like take advantage of how tiny I am.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And throw me over his shoulder.
Marc:You never wrestled?
Guest:No.
Marc:I mean, I. Is that a thing in WWE?
Marc:Do men and women wrestle each other?
Guest:So they used to more and then they became like PG.
Guest:And so it wasn't very PG for guys to be hitting on girls.
Guest:Didn't want to inspire that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But the girls were able to hit the guys.
Guest:And so I always say, like, if we ever have kids, we can tell them our first kiss.
Guest:I pushed him 10 feet through the air through a table.
Guest:You did?
Guest:I did, yeah.
Guest:It was on television.
Guest:My character was stalking his character.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And then at first kiss, I forced a kiss on him and then threw him through a table.
Marc:Were you together at that time?
Guest:No, we got together years after that, but we were friends.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:From the place.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, everybody knew each other in the little world of wrestling.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:All you freaks and gypsies.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So, OK, so you find that this is you decide at some point when you're 10 or so that it's possible to be a comic book character.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Now, what do you start to do?
Marc:Do you start do you start dressing up?
Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I definitely broke furniture.
Guest:I tried to do flips and stuff onto a bed that was like a futon, so it was just wood on the bottom and broke that.
Marc:So now you're destroying hotel rooms.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I thought it was like a way to, if I was getting hit at home or put through the ringer.
Guest:Were you?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Who was hitting who?
Guest:My mother was like the more physical one.
Guest:And so in my twisted little child's head, I was like, okay, this is practice for wrestling.
Guest:It's making me physically tougher.
Marc:Oh, so, well, that's not unhealthy.
Guest:I guess it's one way to get out of it.
Guest:Well, it's a coping mechanism.
Marc:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:That, you know, it was probably painful that your mother was physically abusing you.
Marc:But in your mind at that point,
Marc:you were empowered by the idea that forward thinking, that this can only make you stronger and now you gotta learn how to dodge.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Everything from like 12 on, I was like, this is practice.
Marc:Right, did you shut your emotions off though?
Marc:Did you cry?
Guest:I think there was, for a lot of my childhood I was this kind of open wound and then once I found
Guest:wrestling and like realize like physical strength was going to be important I did kind of disassociate from that stuff and like probably not the healthiest way but in a way that you know it felt like it was not really real and it was like practice for you know being a superhero later on and
Marc:Well, I think that's probably the healthiest way to disassociate.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Like as opposed to just leave your body and watch it get hurt.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I did some of that for sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's some moments of that.
Guest:No.
Guest:And it's just interesting when you're older and you can look back and you've studied this stuff and you talk to psychiatrists and you're like, oh, that's what I was doing.
Guest:Okay.
Okay.
Marc:But it seemed to have a form that that served you.
Marc:I guess that's a lucky break for you.
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:It was it was good.
Guest:I was very lucky that I had something to kind of look forward to.
Guest:I guess like I have to get out of this house and I can go do that.
Marc:But did you you never got fucked up on drugs or booze?
Guest:No, so I was always very afraid of drugs because I had kind of seen the effects of it around me.
Guest:And then the only time I was ever on painkillers is when I overdosed.
Marc:How old were you?
Guest:19 or 20, 21.
Marc:So you were in college?
Guest:I had gotten kicked out of college.
Marc:No, let's talk about that.
Marc:So now you're an aspiring superhero with a pretty disturbing history of abuse and chaos.
Marc:And where'd you end up going to college?
Guest:Because I loved, you know, the world of fantasy, I would write a lot and write my own like fantasy novels.
Guest:And so I really wanted to get into like screenwriting.
Guest:And I went to Tisch School of the Arts at NYU.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For a solid six months before they were like, oh, you have no more money.
Guest:Please leave.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How did you get in there, on a scholarship?
Guest:On scholarships, yeah.
Marc:So you kicked ass in high school.
Guest:I did really well.
Guest:I kind of forced myself to.
Guest:I wasn't very naturally good at school, but I wanted to get out.
Marc:But you could wrangle it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Coming from your family, you got to keep that shit together.
Yeah.
Marc:I just have to apply myself, right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It was definitely... I was good at, like, bullshitting my way through some stuff that I didn't know, you know, like science projects and, you know, shit like that.
Marc:That's hard to bullshit through science.
Guest:I figured a way out to, like, present really well.
Guest:Yeah?
Marc:Were you wearing superhero costumes?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That would have been awesome if it was just like my entire high school career.
Marc:All your science presentations were like magic tricks.
Guest:Look over here.
Guest:But it was definitely, you know, like, what do they say?
Guest:Those like snake oil salesmen.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:There's one running the country.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That was me in high school.
Marc:It's a classic American disposition.
Guest:Oh, God.
Marc:The huckster.
Yeah.
Marc:But in a lot of ways, wrestling indulges all of that.
Guest:Oh, definitely.
Marc:In a spectacle as opposed to an actual system of government.
Marc:But there's no shortage of bullshit artists in this country.
Guest:But that was... To me, being creative and writing stories, that was where I wanted to go.
Guest:And so I started studying that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you're in school and you're not diagnosed yet.
Guest:Um, no, right when I got kicked out is when I got diagnosed.
Marc:So, was your behavior questionable?
Marc:Like, were you experiencing mania in that?
Guest:Yeah, um, I think I, my mania was different in, in, it was manifesting itself mostly in, like, paranoia.
Guest:And so, like, I would, it was hard for me to, like, leave my dorm room, um,
Guest:i would like walk up to the door and like i there was like a power in the handle of the door and i couldn't touch it and it was just too much and i would start having a panic attack mystical thinking yeah it was just very straight like magical thinking you know yeah it's yeah it felt like like the world could see was like looking at me and like kind of shaming me for being poorer than all the other students and um was there a conspiracy against you
Guest:Maybe a little.
Guest:I felt like any time I went to the lunchroom, everyone was like, oh, poor girl.
Guest:And it was very uncomfortable, just always.
Guest:And I was always on edge.
Marc:But you never got that... When I was at my worst, mentally, there was drugs involved, though.
Marc:I thought that I was being selected by forces that were unknown to me.
Marc:I was literally living in a comic book.
Marc:Like, you know, that...
Marc:that I was going to be given a task that was going to play itself out in a pretty big way.
Marc:I just wasn't clear.
Guest:Oh my God.
Marc:Thank God I never got the directions.
Guest:You might still, I don't know.
Guest:Someone might show up at your door.
Marc:Never say never.
Marc:You know, you remember we were after you back when you were 22.
Marc:Time to pay.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:There's definitely like other like thinking outside of yourself.
Guest:We're like, oh, I'm having these thoughts because, you know, there's some something else in control.
Guest:And right.
Guest:There's a weird way.
Guest:Oh, you had that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And and I just didn't realize that I didn't know what bipolar disorder was.
Marc:So with bipolar, is that still called mania, that kind of weird mystical paranoia thing?
Guest:I think they separate it between depressive cycles and manic cycles.
Guest:Okay, so it's part of the manic cycle.
Guest:Yeah, the up cycle is the manic cycle.
Guest:Some people love them.
Marc:So, yeah, no, I've seen it.
Marc:I've seen the love of the manic cycle.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah, it's not real capable of love, the manic cycle.
Marc:It's a very self-serving thing, that thing.
Marc:So did that play into you fucking up in college, do you think?
Guest:I had like straight A's and I just didn't have enough money.
Marc:That's a shame.
Guest:And it definitely was at the time, I thought it was the end of the world, but it worked out because I started training to wrestle.
Marc:But what about getting help?
Marc:Where did this, so you get kicked out of school and you talk about this painkiller.
Marc:Did you ever go see a shrink?
Marc:Why not?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So my at the time, my mom was really having a breakdown right when I went to school, I think just like being on her own.
Guest:And, you know, her baby was gone.
Guest:And so I at the time, NYU was known as the jumper school because so many kids were like jumping from the library and killing themselves.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, they had to put like fencing up in the library so people would stop jumping from like the top floor of the library.
Marc:No kidding, I didn't know that.
Guest:Yeah, and they had to like bolt all the windows because people were jumping out of their dorm rooms.
Guest:Because New York can be a very lonely place, especially if you're 18 and alone.
Guest:And so there was posters everywhere in school that said, don't jump really dramatically.
Guest:And there was hotlines.
Guest:The school would basically help you get the counseling if you needed it.
Guest:And so that was sort of the first step when I was still in school, trying to figure that out.
Marc:Never when you were a kid.
Marc:A house full of sickos.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But no one believed in mental illness.
Guest:And so they just thought, okay, she's in a bad mood.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:You were weak if you believed in it.
Marc:And that's part of the stigmatization.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:That is a general disposition towards any kind of mental illness or addiction problems that there's just sort of like, pull it together, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:So you grew up with that.
Marc:You grew up with drugs and booze and an undiagnosed bipolar and everyone's like, we're keeping it together.
Marc:Why can't you keep it together?
Guest:Yeah, toughen up, you pansy.
Marc:Boy, don't you realize you're part of the problem?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That was definitely it.
Guest:And then once I realized my mother was beyond help and I was like, okay, I'm starting to learn about depression and stuff, I thought I was going to counseling therapy
Guest:to help her uh and i didn't realize that like i was going i didn't realize i was also going through it well have you have you looked into codependency yeah oh yeah oh yeah does that stuff resonate with you too definitely i mean we my mother and i had both overdosed and were hospitalized um in the same year
Marc:Oh, we should have done it together.
Guest:I know.
Guest:We should have just held hands and Thelma and Louise did it.
Marc:Give me the rest of them.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:It's just, you know, you see something and you're so afraid of it and then that is what you end up becoming.
Guest:You know, you kind of can write your own self-fulfilling prophecy sometimes.
Marc:Well, but that's the tricky thing also with mental health is that...
Marc:There's a self-fulfilling prophecy, but there's also the wiring of who you are.
Marc:There's a biological component, and then there's an environmental component.
Marc:And both of them are equally as powerful in my belief.
Marc:I'm no clinician.
Marc:But once those things are set in,
Marc:All you can do is act against them and hope it sticks on a behavioral level.
Marc:Don't do that.
Marc:Don't ruin this.
Marc:Don't fuck this up.
Marc:So you have to have that self-talk.
Marc:But the biological component, the chemical component, it's harder to identify.
Guest:Definitely.
Marc:So when you say you overdosed, what led up to the pills?
Marc:Why were you taking them?
Guest:I just started, I'd get kicked out of school and I was going to see, it was sort of this like perfect storm.
Guest:I got kicked out of school.
Guest:I started wrestling training.
Guest:I broke my foot.
Marc:Where do you start wrestling training?
Marc:Where do you say like, I'm ready for my outfit?
Guest:So I got really lucky and there happened to be a school, a
Guest:Like maybe like a mile away from where my apartment was.
Marc:In New York?
Guest:In New Jersey.
Marc:Where was this now?
Guest:This was in Union City, New Jersey.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Like there was a wrestling school.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like a clown college?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's basically like if you have some sort of skill in wrestling, you can open a school.
Guest:There's no license or anything you need.
Guest:You could just put up a ring and say, hey, pay me money and I'll train you.
Marc:Well, there's a whole world of wrestling that Phil sort of came backyard shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it's like a step up from that.
Guest:And then when you train on your own in these things that are not WWE related, you do the independent circuit.
Guest:And it's like the smaller bingo halls and VFW halls and high school gyms and stuff like that.
Marc:Right, that's the old school kind of like meat and potatoes wrestling.
Guest:Yeah, not getting paid.
Guest:There's like six people in the crowd and you just do it for the experience.
Marc:It's sort of a little what you see in the wrestler, the film.
Guest:Right, and there is definitely a feel of like,
Guest:It being a little bit hokier, a little bit more of like exactly what we saw when we were growing up, like a callback to that, like the Macho Man days when you are on the Indies is definitely more of that.
Guest:And it's a little bit of an awakening, a rude awakening when you get onto the main roster and you're like, oh, they don't do it that way.
Marc:But it seems like those older ones, there's more blood.
Guest:Oh my God, yeah.
Guest:That's definitely a thing that they cut out just because it was PG.
Guest:But I remember being in developmental and my tooth went through my face and I was bleeding everywhere and I was like, this is the coolest thing.
Guest:This is what I used to watch.
Guest:Yeah, I thought it was the coolest thing.
Marc:Yeah, because I remember those wrestling magazines.
Marc:When I was a kid, I'm older than you, I'm 53, but I'd go down to the drugstore to get my mom cigarettes and they'd have those pro wrestling magazines.
Marc:And every week on the cover, it was just some guy covered in fucking blood and another guy holding his head.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:It was crazy.
Marc:And I was like, I don't know how or why I did not gravitate towards that.
Marc:I was just sort of like, what the fuck?
Marc:It was always like next to the true crime magazines.
Marc:There were true crime magazines where you just saw a corpse.
Guest:Oh, God.
Marc:No, but not like graphic.
Marc:But then there'd be the wrestling magazine, just like bloody guys with blonde hair.
Guest:It's making their hair pink.
Marc:Yeah, it's just a mess.
Marc:Oh, but anyway, so getting back to clown college and wrestling school.
Marc:So who runs this wrestling school?
Guest:Just like people who have trained and maybe they did something with the WWE at some point or one of the smaller federations.
Guest:It's basically like anyone can do it.
Guest:I trained in a building that is now condemned and got knocked down.
Marc:So now when you do this, see, now this is the thing, not unlike...
Marc:Like if you're going to box, you're going to fight.
Marc:So, you know, there's a skill set that's required in boxing that ultimately is spontaneous.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You know, it's a sport.
Marc:Now, when you're doing wrestling, I imagine that there's a series of basic moves that become more like a dance routine almost or certain things that, you know, you kind of have a series of
Marc:It's more like there's a... What am I looking at?
Marc:You have to train physically, obviously, to be in shape to do it, but you're really going there to learn the ballet of wrestling.
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Guest:I always say it's like the love child of Cirque du Soleil and SNL because there is so much you can choreograph and prepare for, and you guys have to be a team, and you have to make it look like you're murdering each other while saving each other's life at multiple points during the match.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But then you also have to adjust on the fly and like just make stuff up if something goes wrong or if the timing's off or if the crowd doesn't like what you had planned and you have to change it right then and there.
Guest:You have to be able to now talk to your opponent without anyone surrounding you hearing.
Guest:And you're surrounded on all sides.
Guest:So it's impossible to have a conversation.
Marc:So you do it in headlocks.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah, there's like definitely this art form to like as I'm lifting you and you're passing right by me and I can say, you know.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:It's like a shortened language that you use.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you have to learn that.
Marc:You learn those in basic?
Guest:You learn those as you go along.
Guest:Like I think at the end of your career.
Guest:The more experience you get.
Marc:But that's not, like you go to the wrestling school and what's day one like?
Guest:Day one was like 200 bumps.
Guest:Have you taken a bump in your... Have you trained at all when you're doing the show?
Marc:No, I'm not supposed to know anything about it.
Marc:I lucked out.
Marc:I'm a hack film director who got saddled with the job of making a women's wrestling show.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:So a bump is like... If you've seen the matches, it's when you fall on your back and you basically...
Marc:I saw them do it.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So it's basically a way that you hit the ground maybe like 30 times in one match, but you make the loudest noise you can make so it looks like your body's breaking, but you protect your head and your spine and your hips.
Guest:It's a way to flatten out safely.
Marc:So that's lesson one, falling.
Guest:Yes, lesson one really is falling, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because that's the basis of everything in wrestling is just falling down.
Marc:So now when you went to this school after NYU, after you're going to be a screenwriter, this was your real dream.
Guest:This was like, I definitely was like, okay, which one is going to take off?
Guest:But this was the one that was my childhood dream for sure.
Guest:So now it was like, okay, this is where I was supposed to be.
Marc:So when you got there, you're like, hell yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it nearly killed me.
Guest:I got like pneumonia after the first week because my body, I was like 90 pounds.
Guest:I had never lifted a weight.
Marc:Were you anorexic too?
Guest:No, God no, I love food way too much.
Guest:But I looked it, I looked really sick, and I could not handle falling that many times.
Marc:But you weren't depressed yet?
Guest:This was, yeah, I was in and out for sure, and wrestling was a bit of a reprieve.
Guest:And then when I got hurt, that's when I got prescribed painkillers, and I had also just started therapy.
Marc:With the pneumonia?
Marc:What got hurt?
Guest:I broke my foot.
Marc:You broke your foot doing what?
Guest:A backflip off of someone's back.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:It was basically a guy.
Marc:This is at school?
Marc:At the wrestling school?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're already down.
Marc:You're out for the season.
Guest:Yeah, I was out for a little while.
Marc:And they gave you what?
Marc:Oxys?
Guest:Well, I always make sure I never tell people the formula because I don't want people to try it themselves.
Guest:But you were prescribed a painkiller.
Marc:You were prescribed a painkiller for your foot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're not feeling great.
Guest:yeah and uh and i just happened to get hit with a depressive cycle at the exact same time and i had um antidepressants also yeah where'd you get those from the nyu doctor i started i started i started there like a counselor through school and then i started going on my own to a psychiatrist um and a therapist um and so yeah i had that and i was afraid of it and had it in a drawer and didn't look at it so you had the diagnosis
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I had a, I was diagnosed as depressed, not bipolar.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So they're giving you the standard Prozac-y whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the problem is when you're bipolar, you cannot take antidepressants.
Guest:It just makes it 10 times worse.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because it doesn't, like my understanding, or it used to be the thinking was you had to, you know, do something to level the baseline of the depression and then start to bring the poles together.
Marc:Something like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's basically that you have to find that balance, but antidepressants just shoot you through the roof and that's,
Marc:Certain ones, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so it's complete opposite of what you need.
Guest:And so what it ends up doing is making you way more depressed.
Guest:And it was just kind of the perfect storm of waking up one day in a really deep depressive cycle and not realizing I was in it and just saying, oh, I'm in a lot of pain.
Guest:Let's make this pain go away.
Marc:I don't always know what depression is for myself.
Marc:Because if you have bipolar II or you're dysthymic, which I've been diagnosed as both,
Guest:you know it's sort of like it's just the way your brain works so you're like you know like is doesn't everyone full of dread right isn't everybody doesn't everybody see how bleak it is yeah i mean now i know i know the difference now because i've been it's been 10 years of like therapy and medicine and everything now i'm like oh it's just a depressive cycle but at the time i was like oh the world is ending
Marc:Well, what characterized that?
Marc:I mean, what was the feeling exactly?
Guest:So for me, physically, it was like, there was like, I felt heavier, and I would wake up and just feel like I was covered in a lead blanket, and there was a cloud over my head, and I couldn't taste food, and I couldn't sleep, and it was just like,
Guest:oh, I'm completely broken.
Guest:And I didn't have an answer for that.
Guest:At the time I was told it was depression.
Guest:And so I was like, okay, how do I make the depression go away?
Guest:This bottle?
Guest:And yeah, it was just the same day and I got this splitting headache and I was just having this weird depressive cycle and I made the wrong choice and ended up overdosing.
Marc:But it was a choice.
Marc:You were like, I'm gonna do myself in.
Guest:So I definitely I'd like to like I when I talk about it now, I do say it's like it was my suicide attempt.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But in the moment, and I think for so many people, it's shades of gray.
Guest:You don't you just want to make a pain stop and you don't know what you're sometimes you're not in control and you're just doing what feels right to make you feel better right there in the moment.
Guest:And maybe you don't care if you live or die.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:that's different um and it's a little different because you don't really know in the moment right and so i in the book i try to say like i didn't know at the time if it was a suit like i call it that now but at the time i wasn't sure but i thought they should have treated it like it was a suicide attempt and they didn't that you were in so much existential pain yeah and then also on top of the physical pain that you got sloppy
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Guest:And I just said, okay, this, you know, this will make me feel better.
Guest:And, you know, the hospital was just like, okay, you know, you just, you accidentally overdosed on these painkillers.
Marc:Well, how'd you get, what happened?
Marc:Did you call the fucking ambulance?
Guest:No, so I got really lucky in my, I was living with my sister at the time and, and I can't even like remember taking everything, but I took everything and was just like, kind of like throwing up on myself, like laying on the floor in the living room.
Guest:My sister came home and,
Guest:And just threw me in her car and took me to the hospital.
Guest:And they, you know, saved my life.
Marc:Pump your stomach?
Guest:Yeah, the whole shebang.
Guest:I just remember waking up and I had track marks on my arms from everything that had been stuck into my arms.
Guest:And it was just these black lines.
Guest:And it was just like my shame lines of like, oh, look what you did to yourself.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And so that was my wake up call into like getting a proper diagnosis because I realized, OK, it's not depression.
Guest:I didn't react well.
Guest:You know, something's wrong here.
Guest:And my mom had just was also diagnosed with depression accidentally, you know, mistakenly and then was just diagnosed with bipolar disorder.
Guest:So I realized, OK, that's me, too.
Marc:Yeah, it does travel, right?
Guest:Yeah, it's definitely genetic.
Guest:all right so now you get the proper diagnosis and now they start trying the pills yeah let's see which ones work you know if you start slurring your speech or you can't wake up it might not be the right dosage yeah and that's what scares people because it's it's it feels like an uphill battle to like find your right dosage but like once you get past that like sometimes it can be six months for people sometimes it can be two months sometimes it's
Guest:Maybe longer.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:For me, it was just the right amount of time where, like, I could get through it.
Marc:And your foot's healing.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And, you know, you feel like a robot sometimes.
Guest:And then you feel like maybe it's not, you know, it's too much for you.
Guest:But you find the right combination of, like, the right medicine for you.
Guest:The particular brand, dosage, all that stuff.
Guest:And then the other stuff, too.
Guest:Like, working out really helped me.
Guest:Like, getting endorphins into my system.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:um just having like a job having a purpose helped me when did you get that gig so you now you're you're getting on medicine you're balancing out the medicine you're doing the wrestling school but when did you know what what was the audition process for ww what was it f at that time i think it it just turned it was wwe yeah for a couple years at that point so they would have a camp every year um and if you were on the independent circuit you could like um pay them to try out but you were doing the independent i was doing the independent circuit
Marc:So you went to school for how many years?
Marc:Wrestling school?
Guest:Wrestling school, two and a half years.
Marc:And then you started professional wrestling?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Like pretty much simultaneously.
Guest:You train and you try to do good shows.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So you meet people and it's sort of like, can I get on that ticket kind of deal?
Marc:Kind of like comedy.
Marc:Like you're like.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:is there a space is there like do you want to do a fight with me is that what you say yeah is there a girl do you need a girl for the show because those are very rare you know to have girls on the show and so yeah you definitely just kind of wheel and deal and you don't get paid anything but it's just experience yeah
Marc:And you get to try shit out.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:See, that's where you get to make your mistakes and nobody really sees it.
Marc:Except a room full of whatever comes.
Guest:Like six people.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Sometimes that many.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I didn't mean that, but like only that many.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So it's a lot like comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's, you know, I think those are like the character building years for sure.
Marc:But you're not really worried about...
Marc:story as much as you are just the practical moves.
Guest:Yeah, it's really just not being afraid in front of a crowd of six people.
Guest:But just like performing and not really, just getting the basics out there when it's scary and the pressure's on.
Marc:So how much had you done by the time you went to the camp?
Guest:I had not much.
Guest:I probably only had like 20 matches under my belt, maybe less than and paid to try out.
Guest:And everyone in the indies is like, oh, it's just a rip off.
Guest:They just want your money.
Guest:It's, you know, who pays who says, give me money and I'll let you try out.
Guest:But for me, it was everybody.
Guest:Yeah, for me, it's like, hey, they're going to be there, right?
Guest:They're going to see us, right?
Guest:So it's an opportunity.
Marc:In my racket, it's sort of like if you bring 10 people, you can go on stage.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's kind of... Bringership.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's sort of what, you know, you have to invest in yourself ultimately.
Guest:And so that's what it felt like.
Guest:And I saved for a whole year.
Guest:I missed the first one, saved money for a whole year and then paid to try out and got signed.
Marc:By who does that?
Marc:Does Vince do that?
Guest:It's basically like the producers and agents and like the people who do the hiring, like the talent department.
Guest:Yeah, they signed me.
Guest:It was like a group of like 70 guys.
Marc:And then what happens?
Marc:Did you know the women wrestlers?
Marc:Were there still women that you watched when you were a kid wrestling?
Guest:There were some, but they were already on the main roster.
Guest:And so when you get signed, you go to developmental, which is like the minor leagues.
Marc:But there were still some working that you looked up to?
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Guest:Beth Phoenix.
Guest:She was like one of the ones that started to break the mold.
Guest:And all the girls were like Pamela Anderson, but she was like Pamela Anderson jacked like Wonder Woman.
Guest:So she was really interesting to me.
Marc:Did you get to meet her?
Guest:I got to wrestle her for her last match.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she was at my tryout, too, and gave me words of encouragement.
Guest:Oh, I'm not kidding.
Marc:So that was exciting.
Marc:So you knew her.
Marc:When did you watch her?
Marc:When you were 13 or something?
Guest:I watched her.
Guest:Maybe I was 17, 16, 17.
Guest:And so we overlapped each other, and that worked out really well for me.
Marc:So what is that YouTube video of you crying when you met?
Marc:Which wrestler was that?
Guest:Oh, so that's Lita.
Guest:She wasn't wrestling at the time, but she was in and out.
Guest:And I met her backstage one time and I was like, you might not remember this, but this is us meeting when I was an infant.
Guest:And that was so important to me because if she had been like a dick that day, like when I was a kid, like maybe I wouldn't have wrestled.
Guest:God, maybe 12.
Marc:So where'd you find that footage?
Guest:um i had them find it um it told when we were doing when i was first signed there was like a competition show they put us into and um and i told them like that um i had been to one of her signings and i had been to like a wrestlemania like lined up for tickets and they have footage of that of me like they just had it yeah they keep like an archive it's really cool and they dug that up yeah it's so touching
Guest:Yeah, because for me, if she was mean to me as a kid, I maybe wouldn't have done it.
Marc:But she was your hero.
Guest:Yeah, she was definitely one of the girls that was like, hey, it's okay to be different.
Guest:It's okay to be the underdog.
Guest:And you can make your own way if you make it there.
Marc:That recording is so moving.
Yeah.
Guest:It definitely like changed.
Guest:It changed my life.
Guest:You know, it could have gone one way or the other.
Guest:And she was luckily really cool.
Guest:And then when I met her in real life, she was like, oh, that was cool.
Guest:You know, and it's got to feel weird for her.
Guest:But you don't understand.
Guest:You don't understand.
Guest:I love you.
Guest:But it's cool.
Guest:So I'll do signings now and people will do little split screens of a picture of me meeting her and a picture of a little kid coming up and meeting me and crying.
Guest:And it blows my mind.
Guest:You hope that this keeps going.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So how long did it take for you to get from what's the entry level stage?
Guest:It was FCW at the time.
Guest:So it's like a developmental stage.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:And when did you cross over in the big leagues?
Guest:It was like two and a half years in developmental, which is longer than normal.
Guest:And what do you do in developmental?
Guest:You just train every single day and like all day long.
Guest:You just watch tape.
Guest:You go to the gym.
Guest:You do like little shows that kind of reminiscent of the Indies.
Marc:Well, were you now because of your size and your weight, were you developing a style?
Marc:Were you conscious of that?
Marc:Because it seems that whatever your signature moves were, they were completely relative to tactics that you had to employ to make the winning convincing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Was there a precedent for that?
Guest:No, it was, I think like a lot of the time it was, it'd be hard because people would be like, well, I wouldn't, if she hit me, I wouldn't fall because she's so tiny.
Guest:And then it's like, okay, well, if I threw you against the ropes, you probably wouldn't run right back at me.
Guest:Like there's a suspension of disbelief in wrestling.
Marc:No, I get that.
Guest:But you do have to find stuff that makes it believable.
Guest:And for me, that was flying at people like a spider monkey.
Yeah.
Guest:That's all I could do.
Marc:Did you know the day you figured that out or was it a natural evolution?
Guest:I think it was in like training school in like the Indies when I realized, oh, I can't, I'm not strong enough to lift people.
Guest:Everyone's bigger than me.
Guest:I have to figure out a different way to kind of be like the scrappy one in case if I ever do want to like, you know, believably win a match.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was just like flying at people and doing more aerial stuff or just like sneaky underhanded stuff or submission moves where I could wrap around them.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And did you choke people out?
Guest:On their shoulders?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I did have some submission ones that were like sleeper holes and stuff like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like they couldn't get you off?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then it just started to happen?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I got to watch more wrestling.
Marc:Were you aware of the Glow Girls?
Yeah.
Guest:It's a little bit before my time, but we were all, especially in developmental, the girls in our group, we had watched the documentary about them together.
Guest:And that was sort of like a bonding experience.
Guest:And just to see what it had been for women at one point.
Marc:The first wave of that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that was that was really cool.
Guest:Like that's just a different world.
Marc:Yeah, it's sort of interesting that they came from all different factions.
Marc:So you wrestle, you develop a style, you become a wrestling star, you win three championships, you're on medication the whole time.
Marc:Nobody knows.
Guest:Nobody knows.
Marc:When did you go public with that?
Guest:A few months ago.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:With this book.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When I knew I was going to retire and I knew the next step was to start writing because that was what made me feel strong before wrestling did, was writing.
Guest:I knew that the message I did want to send was talking about mental health.
Marc:Well, the book is called Crazy is My Superpower.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, so I needed to kind of put my money where my mouth is and show the side of myself that I always kept hidden.
Guest:And I just didn't want to like blindside people and have the book come out and have them learn about it for the first time then.
Guest:So I like wrote like a post on my website about like, okay, hey, this has been going on since I was like 19.
Guest:And I think it's a strength.
Guest:I think it helps you see the world in different colors.
Guest:And so this is what my book is going to be about.
Guest:Don't be surprised.
Marc:And what was the response immediately?
Guest:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:I was so scared.
Guest:I thought, you know, it's the internet.
Guest:You think that everyone's just going to shit on you.
Guest:No, just men.
Guest:That's just dick pics.
Guest:Those still come.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:No, I know women can be awful, too.
Marc:But my experience with, like, even when we had comments on the website here, is that if I talk to almost any woman, that there's just what I call an army of unfuckable hate nerds out there.
Oh, my gosh.
Marc:that that you know just like they just live to shit on chicks yeah yeah like it's like an uh an ever-present wave of that yes constantly like it would be like i just have women in here comedians or whatever and no one hardly ever went to my comment board but as soon as i had a woman on it was just like this onslaught of garbage men
Guest:An antenna went up?
Marc:Oh, opportunity.
Marc:Yeah, time to shit on a chick.
Marc:But I know women can be pretty vicious, but that was not the predominant reaction.
Guest:Right, yeah, surprisingly.
Guest:And the coolest part of it was people I had known for years, people who were really close friends,
Guest:We're like we're either saying I love someone who is bipolar and I've never talked about it or I am bipolar and I've never talked about it or I have depression and I've never talked about it.
Guest:And so like it sort of opened up like people that have been ashamed to talk about it are now like, OK, now I can go to AJ and talk about it.
Guest:And that's like the coolest thing in the world to me.
Guest:That's all I wanted to come out of writing this book.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And yeah, man, you offer sort of suggestions to that.
Marc:I think what it really comes is people get isolated within themselves, you know, so they're out in the world, you know, feeling like they're, you know, fucked up and alone and they have to hide all this stuff.
Marc:But, you know, you're able to sort of show that
Marc:it really makes you a unique individual, not necessarily that if you treat your illness, that all those things that make you unique can be proactive.
Guest:Yes, definitely.
Guest:To me, I think that the world only talks about mental illness when it's too late, when either someone's killed themselves or had a breakdown or there's some sort of drama and salaciousness involved and so people don't want to be associated with it in that way.
Guest:And so for me, I think like the first step is just like finding someone to be to talk about it to accepting it and like treating it because my life didn't start until I started treating it.
Guest:And then the whole world opened up.
Guest:But also to realize that like it's not this like curse.
Guest:It can it can be a gift.
Guest:It is a superpower.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's treatable.
Guest:You can harness it and live every day healthily.
Marc:And really, there is always help available if you look for it.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:There are people out there that will want to help you, friends or family.
Guest:And if it's not, there's medical professionals.
Guest:There's options.
Guest:There's so many options.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there's free options.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:It's just that you don't have to be isolated with it.
Marc:Now, what is your experience with other people in wrestling?
Marc:Because comedy is sort of a bunch of misfit people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, like, as I looked through the book, I started to think, like, is wrestling sort of a bunch of kind of weird, you know, unique individuals that don't fit into regular society as well?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, like, what kind of group of people is like, oh, I want to wear spandex and, like, fight crime?
Guest:I guess it's a stupid question.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, it's not.
Guest:But it's definitely like you have to be so peculiar to say, I'm going to do this.
Guest:I'm going to be like the closest thing to a real life superhero.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's either something in you that, you know, wants to feel safe or wants to feel strong and never did.
Guest:Or you want to, you know, just feel like the good guy or there's definitely something a little broken in all of us, I think.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Marc:And then the beautiful thing about that world, no matter how exploitive it might be on a business level, is that
Marc:It does function as a community.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's the cool thing is that you better get along because you're on the road 300 days a year and five days a week and all these hours spent together.
Guest:You have to become a family or it's just miserable.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the thing about Phil or Punk is that... Now, did you really steal him from another wrestler or was that just...
Guest:No.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So I stalked him.
Marc:In real life.
Guest:What's a real life?
Guest:No.
Guest:In the show, I stalked him and like three other guys at the same time.
Guest:And I had...
Guest:i had kind of i think i like broke one guy's heart and went to another guy in the show in the show in real life we were friends for a long time and then we're then we dated and got married really fast we get married in like four or five not as not as dramatic as the show no no
Marc:Well, yeah, I'm glad you're doing what you're doing.
Marc:The book's great.
Marc:You seem good.
Marc:Say hi to Phil for me.
Guest:I will.
Marc:You feel all right about this?
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Guest:I'm sure he'll listen.
Guest:We listen to you all the time on our car rides.
Marc:He knows all this.
Guest:Yeah, he's over it.
Guest:He's really cute and been supportive and been watching every interview I have.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:Yeah, so he'll definitely tune to this.
Marc:And tell him to be careful for Christ's sake.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Oh, gosh.
Guest:I know.
Marc:I want to talk to him in a year when he realizes this real fighting business was some unresolved childhood bullshit.
Guest:Oh, I think I think he would say like his life just with like a Puerto Rican girl from New Jersey is more dangerous in his everyday life.
Guest:OK.
Guest:All right.
Marc:Well, thanks for talking.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:A lot of perseverance in that story.
Marc:It was really nice to hang out with her.
Marc:Maybe I could double date.
Marc:Me and Sarah could go out with AJ and Punk someday.
Marc:Are they here in Chicago?
Marc:I wonder.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:I can do this off mic in my own head.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I got to go to work.
Marc:I'll probably talk to you on Monday.
Marc:Back in the garage.
Marc:All right?
All right.
Guest:Boomer lives!