Episode 811 - Joel Hodgson / Jonah Ray
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuck sticks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast WTF.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:Some of you know me.
Marc:Maybe you're just tuning in for the first time because you're a big Joel Hodgson fan.
Marc:Yeah, Joel Hodgson.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:I think my ability to speak is deteriorating.
Marc:It's not senility.
Marc:It's not Alzheimer's.
Marc:I just think that my tongue...
Marc:And my ability to enunciate is just giving up.
Marc:It's giving up.
Marc:Joel Hodgson is here today from MST Mystery Science Theater 3000.
Marc:They're doing it again.
Marc:It's happening.
Marc:And coincidentally,
Marc:Also on the show today, someone who is on the new MST3K, Jonah Ray, to promote something else, but we got a little bit in for the other thing.
Marc:He's my buddy.
Marc:He's been on my TV show.
Marc:He lives down the street from me.
Marc:Always nice to see Jonah.
Marc:So big doubleheader here today, so I'll try not to go too crazy talking about my own shit.
Marc:But welcome to the show, if this is your first time.
Marc:If it's not, nice to have you back.
Marc:How are you holding up?
Marc:Are you okay?
Marc:I'm out of town still.
Marc:You know, I've been at it, man.
Marc:I have been at it.
Marc:But in all honesty, the two reel tour has concluded.
Marc:My tour dates are done.
Marc:But look, if you still want to see me live, I'll be at BookCon Saturday, June 3rd in New York City.
Marc:Come hear me talk about the new WTF book, Waiting for the Punch, with my producer, Brendan McDonald.
Marc:You'll get an advanced copy of the book and we'll sign it for you.
Marc:What do you think of that?
Marc:You can go to thebookcon.com.
Marc:for tickets so i've been out i've been around i've been pushing the uh the the the limits with the stand-up as as many of you know i taped that special i guess it's going to be a couple weeks ago now in minneapolis and we got to cut that lynn shelton and myself she directed it uh all the dates that were from the two real tour beginning with carnegie hall even a little it was actually before carnegie hall
Marc:Did some club dates and then moved into the theaters.
Marc:And it was all sort of converging on that, on the special.
Marc:Been doing a lot of stand-up.
Marc:And last weekend, which would have been the day before yesterday, last Friday and Saturday, it was kind of pretty crazy.
Marc:Because I think the last time I talked to you guys, I was in New York doing the glow junket, doing the press for the gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling.
Marc:But then I did a lot of running around leading up to the final show of the tour at at the Warner Theater in Washington, D.C.
Marc:So I was in New York and on the Thursday I went down to I took the train, took the train down to D.C.
Marc:Now, look, I you know, I'm not an elitist in any way.
Marc:And, you know, I don't I don't like making a big deal.
Marc:about things or or being ostentatious but i'll be honest with you brendan and i had to go down to dc on thursday to do some business friday morning we had somebody we had to talk to and uh i got i got his first class tickets on the acela train from new york to dc it's about three and a half hour run the acela is already a fast you know in terms of amtrak it's a little more pricey it's supposedly an all business class train but i figured hey let's let's live a little
Marc:And do the first class thing.
Marc:But you know what you know what it really comes down to is I don't know if you've ever had to get on a train in one of the major metropolitan areas like Philly or New York or D.C.
Marc:But the the panic, the panic of boarding is is something I wanted to avoid.
Marc:And apparently I was willing to spend a few dollars to do it.
Marc:Just that sort of you don't know what track it's going to be on.
Marc:If you're a Penn Station, you're just sitting there like in starting position.
Marc:You're in starting position.
Marc:You got one foot in front of the other when it's coming down to the wire on your time of departure.
Marc:And you're just looking at that board.
Marc:And when they drop that track number, you got to like you try to familiarize yourself with the architecture of the situation and figure out where all the tracks are.
Marc:And maybe you know that if you do it regularly.
Marc:I don't.
Marc:But then you're just waiting to bolt, waiting to bolt with everybody else.
Marc:Just that panic of 50 to 100 people just like, ah, the track's up.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:I wanted to avoid that.
Marc:And it was worth the few dollars extra to avoid that.
Marc:We sit in the first class on a train.
Marc:It's not like an airplane, but you do recline a little bit and they do give you some food.
Marc:And it was nice.
Marc:Give me a time to talk to Brendan, catch up.
Marc:And we didn't have to go through the panic, the bolting panic of boarding a train.
Marc:So we went down to D.C.,
Marc:And then Friday morning, we did the thing.
Marc:Then Brendan went back home.
Marc:And then when I went up to Philly to do the Miriam Theater with my buddy Nate Bargetzi and the Philly crowd was great.
Marc:It was just it was a great night.
Marc:And we did a nice tight show.
Marc:I wasn't feeling great, but I didn't I didn't I didn't make a big deal out of it.
Marc:I just did my job.
Marc:And the set is so goddamn tight right now.
Marc:I didn't it wasn't like I walked through it or slept through it, but I I did my job.
Marc:I was a little compromised physically.
Marc:And then somehow or another, we managed to get a roast pork sandwich in with the broccoli, Rob, and the provolone.
Marc:Mine was sitting in my dressing room.
Marc:The guy who, the stage manager over at the Miriam had set us up.
Marc:I didn't get over to John's or to Nick's.
Marc:Didn't have time.
Marc:There was no time coming up from D.C., getting settled, getting my shit together.
Marc:Then we do that show, eat the roast pork, crash.
Marc:Next day, up.
Marc:Take the train back down to D.C.
Marc:And you know what?
Marc:From Philly to D.C., I did it again.
Marc:I got first class.
Marc:I'm living it.
Marc:I'm living large getting first class on the Amtrak.
Marc:That's where I'm at.
Marc:So now I'm going back down to D.C.
Marc:And, you know, I spent some time in D.C., Washington, D.C., which, of course, is the focus of all of our attention, all of our anxious attention, all of our terrified attention, depending on which side you're falling on.
Marc:Some of you are...
Marc:I guess, a couple of years.
Marc:You're just thrilled with every minute of spontaneous horror.
Marc:But those of you who have listened to this show for a while know that...
Marc:i like dc i like going there it it it does still and always has represented something probably a dream and and it's seeming more and more like a dream uh of a country to to this day but i i still like walking around dc so i get to dc and uh you know i'm nervous because i'm i'm not hiding the fact that i'm i'm
Marc:sort of terrified as, you know, our democracy seems to be barely holding.
Marc:I didn't know if I would witness the carnage that was addressed in the inaugural speech.
Marc:Like, what is D.C.
Marc:like now?
Marc:I had not been there since this administration took control.
Marc:And I am happy to report, at least on this level, that that D.C.
Marc:was was thriving and diverse and exciting.
Marc:And there was all kinds of things going on with all kinds of different people.
Marc:I look around at all the people and they're okay.
Marc:They're getting through it.
Marc:These people were designed to endure.
Marc:Americans were designed to hopefully fight for what's right whenever we have the opportunity to do so.
Marc:But it just felt like America still in Washington, D.C.
Marc:Kind people, nice people, polite people of all kinds going about their day, enjoying the nation's capital and engaging whatever events they were doing.
Marc:The museums were all open.
Marc:The carnage was not present.
Marc:But it was a different experience for me in that I've been there.
Marc:And whenever you go there, whoever's president, it doesn't matter who it is.
Marc:You look at the White House and you're like, holy shit, there's the White House.
Marc:And there is always a sort of, I believe, maybe I'm unique as an American, a sense of awe to the buildings of government.
Marc:But this was the first time like, you know, I just remember going been there many times over my life and you're always sort of fascinated with it.
Marc:Why do I project?
Marc:I'm always sort of fascinated with it.
Marc:But this was like this time it was more of a disturbed and perverse fascination.
Marc:Like this is the first time I stood in front of the White House and thought, is he in there?
Marc:Do you think he's in there?
Marc:Is he just what's he doing in there?
Marc:he's just yelling at things is he what's he is he in there that guy is that guy in there right now and then there's this other thought like you know what if i just you know if i showed up with a bucket of kfc and some maybe some cheeseburgers you think that maybe i could go in and chit chat with him and see where his head's really at you think he's in there
Marc:A sort of weird panic, apprehensive feeling standing outside the White House, which I've had before in different forms.
Marc:I've been there for several different presidents, both Democratic and Republican.
Marc:But this time it was beyond party.
Marc:It was just like, do you think he's in there?
Marc:Is he?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I had not had that feeling before.
Marc:But I will report that, you know, even with whatever tremendous tension and discomfort that some of us are feeling, that the nation's capital still seemed to be a vibrant representation of a diverse country.
Marc:I did not see the carnage.
Marc:There was one building that was about partially demolished.
Marc:And I was wondering, is this a construction site or is this the actual beginning of the carnage?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Jury's out on that.
Marc:Jury is out on that.
Marc:So let's now talk to my friend Jonah Ray.
Marc:Jonah is entering season two of Hidden America.
Marc:That's his show, Hidden America with Jonah Ray.
Marc:It's now streaming on CISO.
Marc:You can also watch him in MST3K, The Return.
Marc:That is now on Netflix.
Marc:This is me and the lovely Jonah Ray back in the garage.
Music
Marc:So, Jonah, you seem to have, you know, landed on your feet.
Guest:It's a real touch and go there for a bit.
Guest:I landed on one foot and one ankle.
Marc:Stayed balanced for a while, then got the other foot planted somehow.
Marc:Yeah, I guess so.
Marc:So I literally haven't talked to you for a long time, and we're neighbors, and I guess we just can't find time to hang out.
Marc:I understand that.
Guest:Yeah, well, we text about music and then there's a couple complaints.
Guest:And that's it.
Marc:We should do something.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But it's really about busy.
Marc:It's about being busy and about the fact that I don't really hang out with anybody.
Marc:Do you not do anything?
Marc:No, dude, I don't do much of anything.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Maybe I'm old.
Marc:It might be it.
Marc:Did you expect this of yourself?
Guest:I never did much.
Marc:It's a lot to get me out to a show.
Marc:It's like I'll go do comedy.
Marc:I'm working a lot.
Guest:But that's like doing comedy.
Guest:That's faux social behavior.
Marc:No, it's not faux.
Marc:It's real.
Guest:It's work.
Guest:It's like if you're in an office all day, you're like, I have tons of friends that I talk to all the time.
Marc:Well, but no, but like doing the road stuff, that's the work.
Marc:But like if I want to just keep, you know, keep in shape or, but like if I want to socialize, like if I feel like, you know, I haven't talked to a bunch of dudes in a while.
Guest:Just talking about chicks and beers.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or whatever it is, a comedy or what, like I'll go to the comedy store.
Marc:You know, I'll go early.
Marc:I'll stay a little bit after my set and I get all caught up.
Marc:Yeah, I get all the dude energy I need.
Marc:I get all this sort of like who's doing what, you know, see who's doing what, you know, kind of where they're at joke wise.
Marc:And I like seeing people.
Marc:So so it works as sort of a clubhouse when I need it.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:But that's also, I guess, a thing that old guys do.
Guest:They join country clubs.
Marc:I would call the comedy store a country club by any stretch of the imagination.
Marc:Well, that's more of a VFW hall for Vietnam vets.
Marc:It's like a country club in hell.
Marc:I don't know if I'm old.
Marc:Let's not go crazy with it.
Marc:You said it.
Marc:Yeah, but that wasn't an invitation to clobber me with it.
Guest:Say it again.
Guest:Say it again.
Guest:You're old.
Guest:You're getting old.
Marc:I think I'm getting older.
Marc:No!
Marc:Oh, Mark.
Marc:No, come on.
Marc:You got so much life to live.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:I also want to talk about MST 3000.
Marc:We're talking about the travel show, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I, uh, just, uh, last, when we wrapped up the third season of, um, of the meltdown, uh, we were also, uh, wrapping up writing and we were shooting also a mystery science theater 3000.
Guest:And I was writing the second season of hidden America all around the same time.
Marc:Now, what was the inception of Hidden America?
Marc:What was the pitch?
Marc:How did it all come together?
Guest:I love Bourdain, and I love his show, and I love how awesome it looks.
Guest:Also, I like sketch comedy a lot, and I kind of found that
Guest:You can kind of do a sketch show that's also just a, like, a parody of Bourdain.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And have it be a secret sketch show within it.
Guest:But it's a real travel show, though.
Guest:Well, we go to real places, but everyone I talk to is fake.
Guest:Like, everyone's playing a character.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So, you know, I got Yvette Nicole Brown from Community.
Guest:Like, she's playing a DEA agent that I talked to while coked up in Miami.
Guest:Really coked up?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:But from experience, I was able to bring a lot.
Marc:Draw from your experience?
Guest:No, draw from experience of me being stuck in a bathroom with a guy talking about Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers.
Marc:Oh, that's not a bad topic.
Marc:I mean, I've had much worse topics in those situations.
Marc:At least that's something you can really lean into.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's a lot like the topics of our conversation.
Guest:It's like, I think I might have come inside that girl.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, that wouldn't go on for a while because that could always trigger like, oh, there's this one time.
Marc:And you're like, I don't know.
Marc:We need to do it.
Marc:Go that far into it.
Marc:No.
Marc:But petty.
Marc:Why not?
Marc:Let's go down the rabbit hole.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:I'm a big petty fan.
Marc:So you're coked up.
Guest:You're talking to a fake DEA agent.
Guest:I go to Nashville, and I talk to Jared Logan, who plays a Pentecostal preacher in a tent revival.
Guest:But you go to the places.
Guest:We go to the places.
Guest:Sometimes we'll fake it out here just if it's easier.
Guest:But what if you're in the place?
Guest:Don't you talk to any indigenous people?
Guest:Yeah, we talk to some indigenous people, some locals.
Marc:By that, I mean locals, yeah.
Marc:I don't want to misuse that word.
Guest:As much as I can, I'll cast local people for parts as much as I can.
Guest:Like in last year, we did New Orleans, and so I had Sean Patton play a part.
Guest:And Sean Patton was able to bring a ton of local perspective to the part.
Guest:And same with Chris True, who's an improviser guy down there, had him on.
Guest:And it's just people are able to bring a lot of that local flavor to it.
Marc:But why the choice ultimately?
Marc:Like what stopped you from just doing a real travel show?
Guest:Because I only want to be involved in fake things.
Guest:When I when I did the Bing commercials, it's like I got a ton of offers of just like, hey, there's like a science show where you go around talking to people with, you know, doing homegrown science project.
Guest:I was like, no, I don't I don't want it.
Guest:I don't want to be me.
Guest:I don't want to do things that, like, I want to try and make the things that I liked when I was growing up.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I never really liked any of those shows.
Guest:The real things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You might as well do a riff on, like Spinal Tap It.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:They got to be in a band, yet they also got to have it be fake.
Marc:But let's talk about this MST thing, because for me, like, when I was at Comedy Central hosting short attention span, it was sort of there at the same time.
Marc:And it was like I knew it was like had a very dedicated cult following.
Marc:And it seems like and I talk to Joel, too.
Marc:It seems like one of those things where those people never left.
Marc:They're just now in their 50s and they're very excited.
Marc:But there's a whole new generation of people that have watched it over the years that when it's been available.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or DVD or just tapes.
Marc:But it's definitely one of those things where people know every episode.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm a huge fan of the show.
Guest:And a lot of my friends were too growing up.
Guest:When you were a kid?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When I was a kid, I loved the show.
Guest:I wanted to be on, let's say, you know, I would watch, it's like, you know, early, I watched everything on Comedy Central.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So essentially I was watching your show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Were you really?
Guest:Yes, I was.
Huh.
Marc:yeah me and my bad outfits my hair looking awkward in that it was a weird set though you were set up to fail okay um always though no you had some good stuff it was just weird because i had seen you do stand up on tv and you're like you were you were hosting clips of stand i know no it was mostly promotional clips of movies and tv shows weird pack like stand-up stand-up was really the stand-up that's right that was
Marc:Mine was sort of like pieces of movie promotions that we could build, you know, themes and things.
Marc:It was ridiculous.
Marc:Nothing.
Marc:We paid for nothing.
Marc:Like, you know, when the DVD box set or the videotape box set of the Carson's Greatest Moments came in, we're like, great.
Marc:We can build a whole show around Carson and act like we made decisions around what we were going to put on.
Yeah.
Marc:It was fucking nuts.
Marc:And they'd just give you the EPK.
Marc:Yeah, and it was just... Nothing was paid for.
Marc:It was all... And then we'd have these dumb themes.
Marc:Today's theme is the color green.
Marc:That was terrible.
Guest:But it was like... But there wasn't that much on...
Guest:Comedy Central.
Guest:So I was watching you, stand-up, stand-up, Mystery Science Theater 3000, Kids in the Hall was on all the time.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Python and AbFab.
Guest:Exit 57, briefly.
Guest:Exit 57 came about after the end of Kids in the Hall.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because remember, after Kids in the Hall was done, it was Vacant Lot and Exit 57.
Marc:Well, Vacant Lot was Nick McKinney.
Marc:Yes, Mark's brother.
Marc:And Exit 57 was... And Paul Greenberg.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Marc:Exit 57 was Amy Sedaris, Colbert.
Marc:Paul Dinello and Colbert.
Marc:And Mitch Rouse.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:uh what i loved like jody lennon uh that's right but what i was always thinking about was the the opening of vacant lot might be the coolest sketch show opening of all time running was it no no it's like they're sitting in a dilapidated house and then uh pretty vacant by the sex pistol starts playing and then wind starts blowing and then the entire house yeah there's like just falls out down around them
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, it was like a fucking sex pistol song and this cool set piece for you.
Marc:It was like, ah, yeah.
Guest:It's that Venn diagram where you find yourself in the middle of it.
Guest:And that was always the thing about watching MST too.
Guest:It's like, you know, they throw out references to Zappa while you're a kid.
Guest:Like that's starting to get into music, starting to get into comedy and everyone starts to kind of, yeah, there's a portal.
Guest:It's a portal.
Guest:portal into another world yeah exactly yeah it's like these people like the same things i do that's a huge thing like what's that that guy likes it i gotta check it out yeah yeah yeah exactly so you're the main guy i'm the new uh test subject yeah i'm the joel mike than me yeah it's uh you know it's what what how how'd you feel when you got it like that must have been like you're like what
Guest:Well, when he asked me, it was still like not a real thing.
Guest:It's like he wasn't... The Kickstarter was long, long before that.
Guest:He was still kind of thinking about... Like Joel was like, he's like, yeah, I'm thinking about bringing it back, but I want to start slowly, maybe incubate it at a theater in Philly.
Guest:Really?
Guest:So I'd want you to move out to Philly.
Guest:Is he in Philly?
Guest:He's outside of Philly.
Guest:No, I didn't know.
Guest:Yeah, in Pennsylvania.
Guest:And...
Guest:And I was kind of like, oh, that's weird.
Guest:And it just just kind of was this thing where he wanted me to do.
Guest:And I was like, we weren't sure what it was going to be.
Guest:But then as it started, he got the rights back.
Guest:And then the Kickstarter, he was like, you're the guy.
Guest:So I hadn't known that I would be the guy for a while.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then, you know, you didn't know if it was going to happen.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it was nice to kind of know for a while before it was announced, just so I could steal myself from all the, you know, nerd anger and rage.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm a, you know, I'm a hipster looking dude.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, a lot of, like, it's a, you know, the meanest comments I get on the internet, I'll look at their profiles and they usually just kind of look like me.
Guest:Which is like, it makes me believe it's like, oh, they hate me because they are me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'd be doing the same thing probably.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I remember when Mike took over for Joel, there was a lot of, a lot of anger towards Mike.
Guest:And then there was like.
Guest:From these, like this, this subculture.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:But which is weird because it's like me and my friends, none of us care.
Guest:Like, we're just like, it's still a show about a guy with some robots and.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But like, they should be happy.
Guest:The show's coming back.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:A lot of people are.
Marc:These purists are like, it's not going to, no, it's going to be different.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it's funny.
Guest:Every once in a while, I'll see a guy go, I don't like Tom Servo's new voice, which is Baron Vaughn doing it.
Guest:I'm just kind of like, Baron Vaughn's one of the most talented- Voice guys.
Guest:Voice guys.
Guest:And he's a great singer.
Guest:He can do impressions.
Guest:And then the guy's like, I don't know.
Guest:It just seems like kind of- It's like, I mean, why does he have to be black?
Guest:I go, oh, there it is.
Guest:There it is.
Guest:Hello, Confederate flag.
Guest:Yeah, you've dismissed anything you've ever said.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but it's great.
Guest:It's been overwhelmingly positive for anything I've done before.
Guest:A lot of people seem to really dig it.
Guest:So how's the new house?
Guest:It's great.
Guest:It's a constant source of frustration.
Guest:Our front door doesn't seem to want to open up or close now.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:From the rain.
Guest:We're on a clay lot.
Guest:Yeah, so everything shifts around.
Marc:Yeah, well, that's what happens to houses.
Marc:You could do what I do, just let it all fall to shit.
Guest:Yeah, but I like it.
Guest:You want your house to represent you as a person.
Guest:Oh, boy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, but I'll get a new door.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:When completely necessary, I get a new door, and it's got windows.
Marc:So that is progress.
Marc:That is progress.
Marc:progress you're not keeping things out that's right yeah when when it gets ugly when things start to really like like i gotta do something i'll do something that's where i take the evolutionary step it's a matter of anxiety and dread and just sort of like oh it's gonna be a pain in the ass but then when when i have to i do it yeah i take the step that's life though i think it is i gotta ask you oh yeah you've had glasses for a long time i have uh i just got lasik okay uh did you ever think about that yeah you can't do it
Marc:No, I mean, it's like, why?
Marc:I mean, how are you feeling about it?
Marc:Weird.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, like I don't love, I mean, I like my face okay, but it's just as jarring to me as to anyone else without glasses.
Guest:Yeah, no, that's what I'm dealing with right now.
Guest:I still like, I'll be walking down the street and I'll catch a reflection in a storefront and I'll be like, I don't like that.
Guest:You left your glasses at home.
Guest:Yeah, it is really, I'm really odd.
Guest:The whole thing is that if there's an earthquake and I lose my glasses,
Guest:i'd be i'd be fucked oh so it was practical in your practical yeah and when the end comes i can't be hanging on to those things yeah i don't want to yeah i want to be able to see when i'm running i don't want to like i ended like last year i was shooting a horror movie and it was at night and had to be like running through the brush and right when they called cut i stopped i put my glasses on there was these i almost ran into these like dead branches like just broken branches sticking straight out oh my god i would have gone right into it with my oh my god
Marc:Okay, so I understand the practical elements, but did it work?
Marc:I mean, can you see like 2020?
Guest:I don't know if it's 2020 because I don't know really what that would be.
Guest:Things are a little blurry.
Guest:The halos at night while driving are a bit much, like big bright halos around lights.
Guest:That's a common thing that goes away after a little bit.
Guest:But the fact that I can see that that says Rolling Stones, I wouldn't have been able to tell that that says Rolling Stones.
Guest:Or that says Rolling Stones.
Guest:You've got a lot of Rolling Stones stuff everywhere.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Where's the other one?
Guest:You're making that up.
Guest:That's a big poster over there.
Guest:No, I can read anything.
Guest:We all die alone.
Guest:Everything in here.
Marc:Where does it say that?
Guest:It's in that second sec.
Guest:Portraits.
Guest:We all die alone.
Guest:Aphrodisia.
Guest:Those are graphic novels.
Guest:That should be exciting for you to see.
Guest:Oh, don't do that.
Guest:You'd love it.
Guest:Like, I remember when the Star Wars episode, when I was working at a record store, I was like, hey, how about that new Star Wars?
Guest:I didn't see.
Guest:He's like, what?
Guest:You?
Guest:Oh, come on.
Guest:Surely you.
Guest:If anyone in this room, you.
Guest:You know me and my self-esteem.
Guest:It really is teetering on the brink.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I'm the type of guy that seeks out YouTube comments.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, God.
Marc:No, I can't.
Guest:Do you look at comments?
Guest:Do you look at stuff like that?
Marc:Not really.
Marc:Sometimes, like, I don't do Facebook hardly at all.
Marc:I mean, the show, I have a Facebook fan page, and I'll go look at them occasionally.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But there's no other comments I would look at.
Marc:I'm not writing for Twitter anymore.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't do it.
Marc:Yeah, save it.
Marc:Yeah, and that's weird.
Marc:It's like, you know, once I, it really happened after the election where I was like, I don't want to make jokes, and I don't want to fight with Nazis.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that was like, it just took me out of it, and I kind of stayed out, and it was like, well, this isn't bad.
Guest:Yeah, I'll occasionally turn it off or take it off my phone.
Marc:I took it off my phone, but I still go through the web.
Marc:I don't have the app on my phone anymore.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:It is good.
Marc:But I'll still go through the browser, and it's a little harder.
Guest:Yeah, I do the same thing.
Guest:I don't need this app on my phone yet.
Marc:I'm signing in.
Guest:Yeah, but I scroll through.
Marc:It doesn't separate things.
Marc:So you're like, where's one thing about me?
Guest:Yeah, it was funny when – I think Bourdain's show, Parts Unknown, is so good, and I think it gets better and better.
Guest:But he's in Hidden America, and he posted a clip from it on his Facebook page.
Guest:And there was a couple comments about the actual clip, but a lot of it were just people going, your show sucks now.
Guest:To Bourdain.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not that he's going to see.
Marc:He's not going to look at his fucking Facebook fan page.
Marc:You don't think.
Marc:But you'd be surprised who does.
Marc:That's a good point.
Marc:You know, like, you make these assumptions about certain people.
Marc:Like, that guy, he's above it.
Marc:But, like, yeah.
Marc:Everyone's got a spare hour.
Marc:They want to do some emotional cutting.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:The only guy I know who probably doesn't do any of that is Louie.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah, he's off Twitter.
Marc:He won't do it.
Marc:It's principle with him.
Marc:I think people who know they're compulsive, they know the time suck of it, but he's just sort of like, fuck it.
Marc:I mean, when something breaks in the news or there's some bullshit out in the press world, it gets back to him, but he doesn't do any of that other shit.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, that's the...
Marc:there's there's sometimes a little bit inside of me that makes me go oh man i want to get to a point where i don't like i just do the work and i don't care about the social aspect right well that's what i tried to do that this last tour i just wasn't gonna be that guy tweeting dates twice a day yeah i'm like it if the theater tweets it i'll retweet it and i'm just not gonna get hung up on that you know facebook you know like i put all the dates on facebook
Marc:on the fan page and just sort of like, that's it.
Marc:And I would retweet the theaters and sometimes go like, come on, there's a few more tickets left.
Marc:But I didn't get into that cycle of like two or three times.
Marc:I just like, fuck it.
Marc:If he, you know, like I got the podcast, you know, if they're gonna come, they're gonna come.
Marc:And it worked out.
Guest:Yeah, and do you feel better?
Guest:For not doing that?
Guest:Well, no, not just that, but do you feel that there's less anxiety?
Marc:Well, yeah, because the downside of Twitter is you really don't know how many people see what you tweet, depending on how many people they follow or how compulsive they are about looking at their feed.
Marc:Your number of followers in the big picture doesn't really add up to much.
Marc:No.
Marc:And, you know, it's like you may be able to remind people because a lot of times people get on and I realize they don't listen to the podcast in order or whatever, and they may not hear about it.
Marc:But like literally the day after I do a place, after I tweeted it 90 times, someone from that place was like, what are you doing, D.C.?
Marc:I'm like, I was just fucking there.
Marc:And it's like, fuck this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, go old school.
Marc:Let the venue promote it.
Marc:I'll do a radio show if I have to.
Marc:But like, you know.
Guest:Yeah, I think that's good.
Guest:I like that idea of just doing the work.
Marc:And a lot of people aren't on Twitter.
Marc:No.
Marc:That's the weird thing.
Marc:I think my producer told me that 79% of adults are not.
Marc:And there's part of me that's like, why can't I be part of that majority?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Aren't we allowed, though?
Guest:There was so much in comedy in the past 10 years.
Guest:There's so much been put on the social media aspect because of some people succeeding off of it, because of Dane Cook's MySpace page.
Guest:It's a long time ago.
Guest:Yeah, it's a long time ago, and I like to think that we can all disconnect.
Marc:I wish Twitter would shut it off for a fucking week.
Marc:I wish Zuckerberg and whoever's in charge over Twitter are just sort of like, we're taking a week off.
Marc:Just like let the president sit and fester in his own garbage for a week and give the country a rest.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Give the country.
Marc:Where's that?
Marc:Where's the hiatus of social networking platforms?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We should start instituting like a summer, a spring break.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That'd be amazing.
Guest:That'd be real nice.
Guest:Everyone's like spring break.
Marc:Everyone go outside.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or just at least those two platforms.
Marc:Just Facebook and Twitter.
Marc:Shut them off for a week.
Marc:See how people, let people start talking again.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In real time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I do still like Instagram, though.
Marc:Still a fan of Instagram.
Marc:I got on it, and I go through flurries of it, but then I'm like, I don't fucking want to take a picture of that.
Marc:Do I got to take a picture of my sandwich?
Guest:No, you don't.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I like making videos and putting music to them and putting them up and stuff like that.
Guest:I don't use my time correctly, I guess.
Guest:For me, it's like I'll do videos and put music on, like edit it on the phone, like an iMovie app on the phone.
Guest:And I do that as like, it's almost instead of playing a video game or going on Twitter or reading like, you know.
Guest:You feel like you've done something.
Marc:I feel like I've made something.
Guest:It's almost like a little morphine drip of creativity being like, hey, you did something.
Marc:Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
Marc:And I just don't, I don't know.
Marc:I don't budget time well.
Marc:I always feel like I'm chasing my own ass.
Marc:And when I sit down, sometimes I play some guitar.
Guest:That's nice because that's all your thing.
Guest:That's why I started a new band, just because I wanted to have kind of a meditation.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I like playing drums because it's like you're using your creative brain in a different way than you normally are with writing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's no more now Zen kind of feeling then because you're just doing the thing you're doing right then.
Guest:You can't really do anything else.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because you're just thinking about the next hit, the next strum, the next lick.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, the thing I do that's so stupid and old school, God forbid I learn how to use GarageBand for something other than just talking on these mics, but on my phone, I'll tape sets on my phone, and then I'll come up with a lick in a very raw form, and I'll be like, I better record that.
Guest:Here's the thing about GarageBand.
Guest:already know how to use it if the interface is so is so easy that like if you know how to do this you just kind of get you you go okay press record i can i can show you if you need oh let's do that that's for years since i got a macbook i've been making songs on garage band like it's the best it's it's so much okay let's do that now we done talking about your shit yeah yeah let's do it okay thanks
Marc:Jonah.
Marc:That was me and Jonah.
Marc:Season two of Hidden America with Jonah Ray now streaming on CISO and the new MST3K The Return on Netflix.
Marc:Love talking to Jonah Ray.
Marc:Now, Joel Hodgson.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Joel Hodgson.
Marc:How is that so hard?
Marc:Joel Hodgson.
Marc:It is hard.
Marc:It's hard for me, that name.
Marc:Joel is somebody I've known about and known of for many years because back in the day when I was hosting a show on the old Comedy Central, when I was slowly putting short attention span theater to bed,
Marc:after many years, in 92, 93, maybe 93, 94.
Marc:I don't remember when the hell it was, but I was in-house over there, and MST3K, the original run, was still going on.
Marc:So I always had clips of Joel.
Marc:I always saw Joel's stuff around.
Marc:I always knew that MST3K was popular.
Marc:I didn't watch it at that time.
Marc:I've watched a bit of it, but I just knew that Joel and I worked for the same entity, and I saw a lot of Joel's face, and I knew he was around, but I'd never met him before.
Marc:And I knew that MST3K was a brilliant thing.
Marc:But I'd never met him before.
Marc:And over time, I'd heard that he's a genius, that he used to do stand-up.
Marc:I knew all these things about him, but I'd never met him.
Marc:And I was pretty excited to get an opportunity to meet him.
Marc:the creator of Mystery Science Theater 3000.
Marc:And you can watch classic episodes on Netflix, plus the brand new 14 episodes with Jonah, Patton Oswalt, Felicia Day, Baron Vaughn, and a lot more people.
Marc:They've restaffed the original characters, but there's also some other new stuff going on.
Marc:So this is me and the great Joel Hodgson in the garage.
Marc:So, Joel, I think that, you know, we were, you're older than me, but I certainly obviously remember the first iteration of Mystery Science Theater 3000.
Marc:And then, but like I knew, like I didn't know who you were and you were one of those guys that everyone talked about, like this guy's beyond, you know, he's at another level.
Marc:creatively we'll know what you were I mean that people love that show and I wish I'd watch more of it but I think that you know I was more concerned with drugs and music than I feel like and you knew Kinison and I want to talk about Kinison too so but this is the thing like I don't know how many people know that you know you were hammering away
Marc:At comedy.
Marc:But also, I don't know how many people know that.
Marc:How much did you raise on this Kickstarter for the new one?
Marc:It was like altogether over six million dollars.
Marc:And because there was like whatever the nerd culture was now, what you found them then.
Marc:Like there's a very specific type of sci-fi kind of like, you know, robot kind of nerd guy.
Guest:You should see the look on his face when he's describing this.
Guest:He seems like actually, I'm just doing color commentary.
Guest:Am I wrong?
Guest:No, but you seem genuinely happy when you describe that.
Marc:Well, no, but I'm just so happy that so many of them are like, I'm going to give Joel money to make more.
Marc:And they've got to be my age.
Guest:yeah right yeah i mean you grab them between like but there's a lot of them that are 35 so that's like 35 and up right like they were 12 when it came out right there's a lot of them like that right when when people know me from short attention span theater i'm like you must have been a
Marc:child yeah it's a little weird makes you feel old i don't feel bad about it yeah no but but i'm sure they appreciated it oh yeah it was like really important to those people i think the reason why i was bitter at that time was that you know short attention span theater mystery science theater like people would get some things confused but also you were doing this brilliant thing and you know i was you know hosting a clip show based on promotional material
Guest:But listen, I got to tell you something, though.
Guest:When they hired us, I think they thought we were going to do that.
Guest:I think it's a huge misunderstanding that they even really let us do Mystery Science Theater.
Marc:Was that with Comedy Network, pre-Comedy Central?
Guest:It was Comedy Channel, and then Comedy Channel merged with Ha for like nine or ten months, and then it became Comedy Central.
Guest:So we were in Comedy Channel, Comedy Channel Ha, Comedy Central.
Guest:And and I really think when I first met those guys, they were really treating it like this is going to be MTV with comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think they thought, oh, we'll just get Joel and these robots to host clips.
Guest:And I think that's what they were thinking.
Guest:And then we refused to come to New York.
Guest:We said, we're not coming to New York to do the show.
Guest:We have to stay in Minneapolis.
Guest:You can't afford to pay us enough.
Guest:And the studio was too small.
Guest:And we said no.
Guest:And then they had to rethink us.
Guest:But I really think they thought...
Guest:Like, you know how it was when Higgins Boys and Gruber, Tommy Sledge, Rachel Sweet, everybody was doing that.
Guest:And then they started to develop programming.
Guest:And the last remnant of that was short attention span theater.
Guest:But I believed when they started, it was all based on an MTV model.
Guest:And they thought, we'll have VJs who host comedy clips all the time.
Marc:Yeah, I think that's true.
Guest:They really thought that.
Marc:And that was also the mystery of you.
Marc:Is that like, where are they coming from?
Marc:Because I just looked at the dates.
Marc:You were in the prime of it when I was hosting that show.
Marc:But you were never around.
Marc:Like in that building, I was at HBO Downtown.
Marc:It wasn't even a real studio.
Marc:It was office space.
Marc:The ceilings were- Like this, like this low.
Guest:It was crazy to shoot in.
Guest:Yeah, they had to hang lights from the ceiling.
Marc:But you were the mystery man.
Marc:It's like, oh no, that's all made in a lab in Minneapolis.
Guest:It really, in some ways, it really served us.
Guest:In other ways, it really hurt us because we weren't really in the culture of show business.
Guest:But that's better.
Guest:They could kind of ignore us on certain things.
Marc:But look at it.
Marc:You just raised $6 million from 35 to 60-year-olds.
Marc:Who were excited to see the puppets come back, the robots.
Guest:That's right, that's right, yeah.
Marc:But let's go back because the thing that, like, I wasn't mad at you or anything.
Marc:I was sort of mystified by the whole, because I was new to show business other than being just a sweaty stand-up.
Marc:I was a child in a lot of ways.
Guest:Didn't you start in San Francisco?
Marc:Not really.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Where did you start?
Marc:After college, I did it maybe twice in college.
Marc:In 1986, I moved out here and became a doorman at the Comedy Store.
Marc:And I got all fucked up on drugs, and by late 87, I moved back to Boston, where I went to college.
Marc:And that's really where I started.
Guest:And then- That's a good town to do standup in.
Guest:Yeah, it was great.
Marc:I came in second in the riot, and I started working, doing all those one-nighters.
Marc:And then in 89, I moved to New York and I was going back and forth making money.
Marc:And then like 92, after hitting the wall on losing my sobriety again, I scrambled out to San Fran.
Marc:But yeah, it was like, it was San Francisco and Boston, LA and New York.
Guest:And Minneapolis, Chicago, that's how I looked at it.
Guest:I think it was sister cities were the really pretty hot comedy scenes.
Guest:That's true.
Marc:But like you started, so what, you come from, how big's your family?
Guest:There's five of us, three kids and two adults, yeah.
Marc:And you work with your brother sometimes?
Guest:Yeah, we did for years.
Guest:Not anymore, but yeah, we did for years when I used to live out here.
Guest:We had a production company together.
Marc:But when did you start?
Marc:So like what business was your old man in?
Guest:Oh, my dad was a teacher and my mom was a teacher.
Guest:My mom was a nurse and then taught nursing and my dad was like a teacher pretty much his whole career.
Marc:Like high school?
Guest:He taught like he started out grade school.
Guest:He was like my actual principal when I was in kindergarten.
Guest:And my friend Billy Creshawn went up to him and he said, hey, I know your little brother.
Guest:And he thought we were brothers.
Guest:And yeah, so he was pretty much involved with education like his whole career, either selling curriculum for some companies or teaching.
Guest:He taught at college.
Marc:Selling curriculum.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, you know, like SRA, do you remember SRA?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:The interdisciplinary, like, you know, kind of colored thing.
Guest:It was kind of during the worst time in education in the country's history, and they could sell stuff like that.
Guest:These little boxes that the kids read, these little pamphlets, and then got tested on.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:It was all individual.
Marc:So was that like a commission sales gig or was it?
Guest:I think so, yeah.
Guest:Interesting.
Marc:But they're noble people.
Marc:They work with the children and the sick.
Guest:Actually, he was an educator and he really cared about it.
Guest:So he was in it.
Guest:He was really living it.
Guest:I think he was happy.
Guest:I think he liked it.
Guest:Yeah, and you're the oldest or the middle?
Guest:I'm the middle kid, yeah.
Marc:So where does the interest in show business come from?
Guest:How did you... I don't even know how to explain it because, man, from the time I can remember, I was fascinated with it.
Guest:Who in particular?
Guest:Well, I can remember being in nursery school and they'd sing, Do You Know the Muffin Man?
Guest:And I'd go, let's sing, Do You Know the Mask Man?
Guest:I had gone into a novelty shop in Madison, the Moon Fun Shop, and the walls were lined with...
Guest:Don Post Monster Mask.
Guest:And I was going, holy shit, that's incredible.
Guest:And so I was five and I'm going, masks.
Guest:I want to be a mask man.
Guest:I want to know where those masks are.
Guest:I want to dress up.
Guest:So from the time I remember it, I just was like... It's one of those weird things where it's possible that you just decide super young that that's who you are.
Guest:I got to...
Guest:i'm just i was just fascinated with it but i didn't know how to get to it because i was in but it was masks i was in southern wisconsin but that's all analogous i think because masks horror movies yeah superheroes yeah the whole thing but theater some reason it's the oldest yeah for some reason i'm sitting there going yeah i gotta get near those masks somehow i gotta get part i have to find out about them yeah i want to sing about them yeah
Guest:I want to sing about being the mask man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I remember I could hardly say it.
Guest:When I said masks, I kept going, masks man.
Guest:And they kept going, what?
Guest:Masks man?
Guest:Do you know the mask man?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was so, yeah.
Guest:But even that was when I was five and that was like the earliest memory.
Guest:So anytime I'd see, and back then, you know, show business was so, I mean, media was so dull.
Guest:And intimate.
Guest:You only had a few options.
Guest:Yeah, like three channels.
Guest:But when something was on, like the Muppets were on Ed Sullivan, it is electrifying.
Guest:Like, oh, my God, it made my day.
Guest:There's a guy with a puppet on TV.
Marc:So you're always a puppet guy.
Guest:Yeah, it's like puppets, magic, ventriloquism.
Marc:Who was the first... Oh, yeah.
Marc:I had a ventriloquist dummy.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah, I had to...
Guest:they had charlie mccarthy and edgar bergen available yeah at some time and i had i had i think my brother had the edgar not edgar bergen that's the one i had you had nerd yeah the goofy one yeah and all the other kids even then all the other kids had danny o'day and i felt like i'm not gonna do danny o'day because the other kids have danny o'day i got to
Guest:I have to break out.
Marc:Which one's Danny O'Day?
Guest:He's the most classic looking one.
Guest:He looks like a smaller version.
Guest:In the Juro novelty doll ventriloquist figure Parthenon, you've got Danny O'Day, which is the smallest one, who looks the most like a ventriloquist dummy.
Guest:Then you have Charlie McCarthy who had a monocle and a little slit there and a top hat.
Guest:Then you had Mortimer Snurd.
Guest:Then later they rolled out, oh shoot, who was the black guy?
Guest:Oh, Lester and Willie?
Guest:Lester, Willie, Tyler, and Lester, yeah.
Guest:So anyway, that was like a big thing.
Guest:And I remember thinking to myself, if I'm going to get into ventriloquism, I mean, in fourth grade, I had a teacher who identified like I was really interested in it.
Guest:And she started playing this rock.
Guest:record in school instant ventriloquism and we'd practice ventriloquism in her fourth grade class and there were like four kids who had dummies and we'd bring our dummies in and practice like she was unbelievable it's unbelievable and i was there i was like so in my that year my my um my my picture for my class picture is me with my ventriloquist dummy i brought my ventriloquist dummy to get to
Guest:I was thinking that's how I'd get an 8x10, my class picture.
Guest:So I'm sitting there, and I'm smiling, and the dummy's mouth is open, and I'm saying, see, I'm doing ventriloquism, because I could actually talk with the dummy.
Marc:So you had that weird smile?
Guest:Yeah, I had that weird smile.
Guest:And it was all like... I'm smiling.
Guest:I'm smiling.
Guest:Hi.
Guest:Hey, how's it going, Joel?
Guest:This is fantastic.
Guest:And the...
Guest:And you'd think somebody would have stopped me, right?
Guest:Like some adult would have gone, like, do you really want to do that?
Marc:We're taking this class picture.
Marc:Put the doll down.
Marc:Put down the toy.
Marc:Put the toy down.
Guest:Yeah, I'm shocked, man.
Guest:They let me be, though.
Guest:That's what's lovely about the Midwest is- That is, that's right.
Guest:Everybody liked it.
Guest:Everybody was like-
Guest:That's amusing.
Guest:I mean, I remember I was carrying... In the neighborhood, I was carrying my ventriloquist dummy over to my friend's house and his mom opened the door and she goes, someday you're going to go really far.
Guest:You're going to go really far with that.
Guest:With the dummy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With Edgar Bergen's dummy.
Guest:She just was smiling.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And no one said, you're wrong.
Guest:You know, this is wrong.
Guest:You're wasting your time.
Guest:I never...
Guest:I don't think I ever heard it.
Marc:Well, that's interesting about the teacher, too, that idea that, like, well, these kids are excited about this.
Marc:It's harmless, and they're excited, and they're engaging.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Let them do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It was really bizarre, but I don't know how it happened.
Guest:I'm 57.
Marc:So you're a little older than me.
Marc:So, you know, ventriloquism for most practical purposes was not a lively art form at that time, really.
Marc:It was the sort of the end of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it was sort of fascinating because I remember being fascinated with it.
Marc:And I don't know what the idea of throwing your voice or the idea like I don't even know that I saw a lot of ventriloquist when I got that dummy.
Marc:And I didn't really commit to it like you.
Marc:I had it and I tried it kind of, but I wasn't in it.
Guest:We're at that age where you're trying to assign an identity.
Guest:And that was a big part.
Guest:I'm not interesting enough, but if I held this thing and I could make him appear like a character, then I'm interesting.
Guest:Then I have a place to be.
Marc:And you kind of can divert a little of the attention off of you because you're insecure onto this thing.
Guest:So if you just had the skill...
Guest:And it's like Bruce Wayne.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you're like, I'm really doing all this, but you can't tell.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:I'm really clever, but I'm acting like I'm not.
Guest:It's like it's a confection.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, social confection in a way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's it.
Marc:Well, you know, you talk to a lot of guys.
Marc:And it's like, it was the popularity thing about being insecure, feeling like an outsider when you're a comic or somebody's prone towards that.
Marc:You either do it in a way that's pleasant or you disrupt everything.
Marc:And it's really about.
Guest:Well, what did you do?
Guest:What happened?
Marc:I was just a smart ass.
Guest:Well, what were your parents like socially?
Guest:How did they behave?
Marc:They were kind of self-involved, hipstery.
Marc:They were kind of contemporary.
Marc:They're both from the East Coast.
Marc:My dad was a doctor, but we lived in New Mexico.
Guest:So they were graceful socially, right?
Guest:Not really.
Marc:They were embarrassing.
Marc:Not really.
Marc:Really?
Guest:He's a doctor and not socially skilled?
Marc:No, he's just inappropriate.
Marc:He was socially skilled, but he was always the guy like, oh, what's he going to say?
Marc:He wasn't that.
Marc:And my mother was always embarrassing.
Marc:They're very vain, but this is going on too long.
Marc:But they were sort of ice storm parents.
Guest:Gotcha, gotcha.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And not the Joan Allen, but Sigourney Weaver and Kevin Kline.
Guest:Yeah, great.
Guest:I love that reference.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That was the time to have a key party.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think they were at one of those.
Guest:That's great.
Marc:You know, I get that feeling.
Guest:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:So not Midwest.
Guest:So you wanted to be funny, but you weren't exactly queuing off them the way they behaved or they may be showing you the wrong way to be funny.
Marc:Well, I think I was fighting them.
Marc:I think that they were so self-involved that I needed to get attention elsewhere.
Guest:That was the thing.
Marc:And I always was trying to undermine structures innately.
Marc:Like the teacher, if I was bored, I'd fuck with the teacher.
Marc:I made a few Hebrew school teachers cry, and I got kicked out of a private school just because of my dumb mouth.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Yeah, that's what I come from.
Marc:But you seem to do it a little nicer.
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:My parents were really good socially, and my dad was really funny.
Guest:And I cued a lot off him, but I didn't really realize it at the time.
Guest:So he actually was kind of building... He actually was kind of making a little path, but I don't think he ever thought...
Guest:It was all by example.
Guest:He was kind of just doing it.
Guest:He never said, hey, Joe, why don't you do this?
Guest:It was it was almost like firewalled.
Guest:And later I realized, wow, it's kind of similar to what some of the stuff my dad would do.
Marc:But also, like, I imagine that they were selfless enough and responsible enough being teachers to afford you the space, but also give you the you learn the value of education and all that in doing your shit.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know what's weird is they never presumed I should go to college.
Guest:That wasn't even in there.
Guest:The only reason I went to college was... Those are interesting educators.
Guest:Yeah, I think they're worried about the money or something, but it was like, I remember going to college and it finally dawned on me, this is fantastic.
Guest:These women are beautiful.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:This is fantastic.
Guest:We're going to listen to records with really cute girls.
Guest:It's going to be great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was.
Guest:It really was.
Guest:But it was exactly the right thing for me to do.
Marc:I was still, I think in my point in college, I was still sort of looking for the identity thing.
Marc:So I kind of moved into a kind of beatnik, kind of outsider arty thing.
Guest:That's great.
Marc:Hanging out and listening to records with girls was part of it.
Marc:But I was more involved with smoking cigarettes and reading books with angry dudes.
Guest:i didn't do that till like right at the end of college that's when that all happened oh yeah yeah like yeah we would drum do you remember drum do you still smoke no do you remember drum cigarettes like that oh yeah you roll them up so great rome buglers were the old school ones the drums were a little more exotic from belgium i think beaties the like little tiny indian ones yeah i never liked those yeah that was intense they were the jarum
Marc:Clove cigarettes.
Marc:I was smoking Marlboro Reds from when I was in junior high, so I was pretty connected to that.
Guest:You should have just gone all the way and smoked Cools.
Marc:Yeah, Cools were more of a blues man thing.
Marc:Yeah, the mentholated ones.
Marc:I tried them, and I tried rolling my own.
Guest:You'd smoke those when you're sick.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Mentally open up the lungs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I just remembered something though, Joel, when I was a kid, when I was in third grade, I did some stage work.
Marc:Like I was able to recite all the presidents in order.
Marc:And I did that in front of the class.
Marc:In third grade.
Marc:And then I put together skits with this kid, Jerry.
Marc:Jerry Graves.
Marc:And he played Grover, and I was the setup guy.
Marc:We did a comedy team thing with this.
Marc:Awesome.
Marc:And so it must have worked, right?
Marc:Well, it was something.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It was sort of an impressive skill.
Marc:I'd learned the precedence from a coin collection booklet, and I didn't have the coins.
Marc:Like a commemorative coin collection book.
Marc:But I didn't have the coins.
Marc:I just had the book.
Marc:And I just memorized them in order.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So it's easy to kill with that.
Marc:You just got to nail it.
Marc:No laughs expected.
Marc:Just get them all and have the teacher go, yep.
Guest:That's awesome.
Marc:So when did it evolve into something that you were serious about?
Marc:And what was that?
Marc:Well, listen.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:A lot of my stuff came, like I said, from my dad.
Guest:A big part of this is the church.
Guest:We were in the evangelical church in the Midwest.
Guest:You were Christians?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And so that has a lot to do with what I do because...
Guest:First time I heard live music was in church.
Guest:First time I saw like a movie projected was probably in church.
Guest:First time I saw magic show was in church.
Guest:It's like they were always kind of like a little bit suspicious of entertainment on the outside world, which is rightly so, you know, and they would entertain horrible influence.
Guest:Well, part of it is, you know, part of it is, but it's like, but part of it's awesome.
Guest:And so it's like they were a little bit like suspicious.
Guest:And so that was a big, there's a big emphasis on being able to entertain.
Guest:So there was like a pocket that I got swept into.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Hey, you do ventriloquism, great.
Guest:Do this father-daughter banquet.
Guest:I was doing gigs, making money in the church seventh grade.
Guest:I had a magic show.
Guest:I'd do birthday parties.
Guest:I was a clown.
Guest:I rode the unicycle.
Guest:So you were a clown, magic, ventriloquist guy.
Guest:yeah yeah anything i could do anything i could do those are the all ages fair can't lose yeah right and i was doing that yeah i was doing that and there was a lot of places to play how good was your magic how good i was i was pretty i was pretty good like right away i um right away i i was capable but i understood that about being funny like that was a really cool thing yeah
Guest:And so I started to do that more and more.
Guest:And so I was like working a lot and there was a magic club in Green Bay that I'd go to and we'd like learn about magic.
Guest:So you're like 13?
Guest:Yeah, 13, 14.
Guest:I got just embedded.
Guest:I was that like kid magician.
Guest:That was kind of my identity.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And so you had business cards and a picture?
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And let me ask about the evangelical church at that time in the Midwest.
Marc:These aren't born-again Christians.
Marc:These are sort of grounded.
Guest:They're born-again, but this is before they got kind of commandeered by the Republicans in a way.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:It was a lot more like the Jesus story is very apolitical, really, when you look at it.
Guest:Of course, yeah.
Guest:So it was kind of like this is before they got kind of –
Guest:kind of swept into that and so it was a lot more it was a lot different and um it was just like again my experience there overall with the midwest is people were very nice and very encouraging so i that's kind of where i was at yeah they were just enthused at what i was doing and thought it was a charming or something sure sure are you still there with the christian yeah
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Held up.
Marc:I'm a believer.
Guest:Held up.
Guest:I mean, you know, it's like anybody.
Guest:It's faith, so vacillates, right?
Guest:Sometimes I don't believe it.
Guest:Sometimes I do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I'm really grateful for the culture of it.
Guest:Like I'm kind of explaining, like...
Guest:I kind of got to be in there and it kind of accelerated my growth in a way, like doing what I wanted to do.
Guest:And everybody was really nice to me about it.
Marc:I tell you, if you're not fighting that battle, if you're not fighting against God, there's a relief to it.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's covered.
Guest:What's that Gary Painter song?
Guest:I fought the Lord and the Lord won.
Guest:Ralph records.
Guest:Well, Ralph records.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Records.
Marc:So you held on to your faith.
Marc:It gave you a good foundation, and it gave you your early opportunities to perform and also take in entertainment product, no matter how compromised it may be by the Jesus.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:I got to remember that.
Marc:But, you know, it was in.
Marc:You knew you wanted to be up there.
Guest:Yeah, I struggle with it so much.
Guest:Like, that was a big thing in college.
Guest:I went to a Christian college.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Which one?
Guest:Bethel College, Bethel University.
Marc:So you really only were playing records with girls?
Guest:What do you mean?
Marc:I mean, like, how, like, what was this?
Marc:You mean, did I swing with dudes?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I mean, like, you know, it just seems like a Christian college.
Marc:Maybe I'm projecting that.
Marc:Maybe there wasn't a lot of drugs and fucking, was there?
Marc:Or was there more?
Guest:I think what it was is it wasn't decreed.
Guest:That thing that was great is it wasn't decreed.
Guest:You're in college.
Guest:You have to drink and fuck now.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Everybody kind of had to go on their own and go on walkabout and kind of figure out for themselves.
Guest:So it happened.
Guest:Walkabout on campus.
Guest:Yeah, sexual walkabout.
Marc:Yeah, we lost that guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I think, you know, there's a lot people don't get about it.
Guest:About what?
Guest:About Christian College and what the kids are doing.
Guest:Because they're really... The people that I found did so much for me for critical thinking and just like ideas.
Guest:People or teachers?
Guest:The kids I was hanging out with.
Guest:The kids I found at that school who were kind of outsiders, but they really...
Guest:Yeah, we were doing the bohemian thing towards the end and reading cool books and smoking cigarettes and having a drink.
Marc:Well, it has to happen eventually, but I'm not anti-Christian.
Marc:I think that there's something pretty amazing about having a sort of
Marc:what is supposed to be a moral foundation or a spiritual foundation or at least to have those questions answered and allow that to happen is not terrible.
Guest:It's a struggle if you really want to think about it and really try to find your way, regardless of what you believe.
Guest:Everybody's got to kind of do that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so that was just the hand that I was dealt.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I have to say it wasn't that bad.
Guest:Now, ultimately, you know, there's things that I... You know, there's things that you don't like about it because there's, by and large, a lot of people that could be kind of mindless and just accept it and are kind of towing the company line about it.
Guest:I'm not really talking about those people.
Marc:And I think that once the dubiousness of righteousness is where, you know, I think it runs into trouble.
Marc:I mean, you know, fanatics are...
Marc:I'm not fanatic.
Guest:But that's not the Jesus story.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Marc:But like, you know, but like anything you're using, because I thought about this this morning, like how many of my principles are principles, you know, based, you know, in a moral foundation or are they just things that I think and do to make me feel like I'm better than other people?
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And sacrifice, too.
Guest:What does sacrifice mean?
Guest:Is it just a game?
Guest:Do we really have to sacrifice?
Guest:A selfish game?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, to make ourselves feel better.
Guest:Like, I sacrificed.
Guest:I'm owed this.
Marc:Well, there's a difference between selfish and selfless.
Marc:It's that when it comes down to being progressive or a liberal or somebody who identifies with that team...
Marc:You know, the real question is how much do you care about people that have nothing?
Marc:How much do you care about poor people in your heart is really what's going to determine your moral foundation.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Guest:It doesn't, I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, it doesn't matter.
Guest:But it is part of my story.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I kind of want, I really want that to be clear that a lot of that came from that.
Guest:Like, how do you make, how do you actually be really funny if you're Christian?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How can you do it?
Guest:There's not much room there.
Marc:Pete Holmes has given it a good run right now.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You think he's funny?
Marc:I do.
Marc:I think he's annoying, but I think he's funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's something... Pete is a very proficient comic, and he's a very funny guy in a very sort of palatable way.
Marc:But he's a guy that has...
Marc:Same with Nick Thun.
Marc:I know a couple of Christian dudes who were real solid youth pastor type of Christians who had a crisis of faith.
Marc:And I think both of them did.
Marc:And I think that both of them came through it still with faith, but with a more personalized version.
Marc:And I think that the fact that they struggle makes it compelling.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Guest:I think that was a really cool movement that happened.
Guest:And I think it's part of, for me, it was embodied in that kind of hipster Christian movement.
Guest:Like, well, you know, we're kind of born to fail.
Guest:It's not like, you know.
Guest:There's no perfecting the machine.
Guest:Yeah, and you don't, and the Jesus story is kind of like you don't have to do that.
Guest:And it would be wrong for you to insist other people do it.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:Well, I've always been fascinated with the idea of the sins in that they weren't designed to perfect the human.
Marc:They were designed as warnings and as a way to judge and seek redemption for your inability to stay, you know, to be consumed by them.
Marc:It wasn't a template for the perfection of humanity.
Marc:That's a...
Marc:a cool way to look at it it was a it was a template for the the sort of flawed nature of human beings to to regulate that not to to fascistically you know perfect it like to eradicate it right like um like i guess the idea is great the idea of grace is you're really pretty much off the hook like you can't
Guest:let's just admit we can't do anything to be perfect.
Guest:Let's just accept that there's this grace that we're given and it's a free gift.
Guest:And I think where we run into problems is when we get boxes that we got to check.
Guest:Like I did this, this, and this.
Guest:Ergo, I'm a good person.
Guest:Ergo, I'm better than you.
Guest:But the other thing I was going to say is like...
Guest:I like, you know, it's just, it's Passover, man.
Guest:Are you being observant?
Guest:No.
Guest:What did you do?
Guest:Did you go eat anything?
Marc:I haven't done anything in a long time.
Marc:I sort of, I don't have a community of friends or Jews.
Marc:And...
Marc:And, you know, I sort of have relieved myself of, you know, even the kind of annual rituals.
Marc:I don't know why, really.
Marc:But, you know...
Marc:I don't miss it.
Marc:The religion never really functioned for me as a religion.
Marc:It functioned for me as a cultural identifier, which I think is really the weird difference between mainstream Christians and Jews in a lot of ways, isn't it?
Guest:I kind of like anybody in a way who's in their own way trying to be obedient to God.
Guest:And then the only time I don't like it is when they're trying to be obedient and they want to kill me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know?
Marc:And that's where I... That's where you draw the line?
Marc:Murder?
Marc:Check, please.
Guest:Good for you.
Guest:That's a...
Guest:I was really trying to do a joke and I couldn't do it.
Guest:That's my only joke for this whole thing.
Guest:Which is?
Guest:You draw the line at murder.
Guest:Yeah, now you're fixing my joke and you're actually making it better and more powerful.
Guest:Okay, that's what I should have done.
Guest:So first I started out segue from the Seder.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People being obedient to God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm for that except when they want to murder me.
Guest:But I should have just wrote it down or something.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:But I was really like.
Marc:It's a bold stance to draw the line.
Guest:And I started laughing.
Guest:I completely screwed it up.
Guest:No, you didn't.
Guest:All right.
Guest:We can fix that on post.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I took it seriously.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I thought it was a reasonable observation.
Guest:I guess it's true too, but I felt proud like I had constructed kind of a joke, but it's really not.
Marc:Almost a joke.
Guest:Yeah, it's there.
Guest:It's getting there.
Marc:Got the setup.
Guest:If I worked on it this afternoon, I'd get it together.
Guest:Sure, absolutely.
Marc:You want to come back?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:All right, so I like the, you know, after we've had this conversation about...
Marc:Uh, about grace.
Marc:I like the idea of grace, but more, more importantly, the, that, that, that was a context for you that you were like, I am Christian.
Marc:I identify Christian.
Marc:I believe this is my community.
Marc:Now, how do I be funny, uh, and, and stay within my, my comfort zone in a way of, uh, of faith?
Guest:Yeah, and I spent a lot of time working on that because we would talk about this all the time.
Guest:Who?
Guest:My friends at this Christian college.
Marc:At that time, you're still doing magic.
Guest:Yeah, and then what the funny thing is is there were regular bands that were awesome, and then there were Christian bands that weren't that good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Some things never change.
Guest:But they would package them like famous bands.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like there was a group called Servant and they marketed them as Super Tramp.
Guest:Their logo was like Super Tramp.
Guest:They sounded like Super Tramp.
Guest:The photos were like Super Tramp.
Guest:So you're going, it smells like Super Tramp, but it's Christian.
Guest:It's okay for me to listen to.
Marc:But then all of a sudden- I didn't think that Supertramp was really pushing the envelope of moral- Yeah, exactly.
Guest:We'd have to break that down.
Guest:Breakfast in America, when do they- Oh, demonic.
Marc:Take the long way home.
Guest:You know what he's saying.
Guest:He's asking you to be a sodomite.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you think you're a Romeo?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's an indictment of our Lord.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Romeo is as anti-Christian.
Guest:That's Shakespeare.
Guest:So anyway, that was kind of a struggle, but we knew there were these great records that weren't Christians that were people living their lives and telling their stories.
Guest:And then there were these kind of lesser bands that were Christian, but they weren't as good.
Guest:So there's this struggle, and we spent a lot of time talking about it.
Marc:Well, that's part of grace.
Marc:You just put up with the mediocre band,
Guest:Yeah, accept it.
Guest:Yeah, like just put the, yeah, that's just part of your, yeah, that's the penance of it, the suffering.
Guest:You have to listen to shitty music the rest of your life.
Guest:And they do.
Guest:There's a lot of them who do.
Guest:So anyway, the thing I wanted to say was I got to my thesis for my senior paper, which was about this.
Guest:And the premise was, and this will kind of tie it all up in a bow for you.
Guest:We'll be able to move off of this.
Guest:I won't have to tag it?
Guest:No, you won't have to tag it.
Guest:So basically I did a thesis paper based on meaning and people finding meaning in your art or your performance.
Guest:And basically my thesis was people are used to finding meaning in your art if they're used to finding meaning in other things.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:And so, basically, I realized I didn't have to worry about it.
Guest:I didn't have to.
Guest:It's not art if you're saying, I'm a Christian.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And if you're building your, like, that's fake.
Guest:That's not art.
Guest:To kind of be blunt and go, I'm a Christian, so you know this is okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's no interpretation.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It strips the most beautiful part of art out, interpretation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so that was when everything kind of fell into place for me when I go, I just, I don't have to worry about it.
Guest:I can just do my thing, whatever I think.
Guest:And they're going to find the meaning.
Guest:It's not my job.
Marc:But also like there's the faith in the fact that your shit is right.
Guest:that you know i'm right in the sense of you know my you know my spiritually i'm fit so like i don't need to pay lip service to that right that's fake right fake it's like just it's like an artist who stands next to his painting and says let me tell you what i was trying to yeah emote and you realize that and that was what was bugging me the whole time i'm in college like where's the art in this like what's going on are christians not artists
Guest:What's going on?
Guest:Does that mean if you say you're a Christian, then it's done?
Guest:Where's personal expression in this framework?
Guest:If you're the viewer, how can you build up any trust if you don't trust that they'll figure it out and find meaning?
Marc:And so you write this senior thesis, and when do you decide to, what was the art at that time?
Marc:And this is the same time you're listening to Ralph Records, or is it later?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So that's coming in.
Marc:It's right in there.
Marc:So you're saying, well, these guys.
Guest:Yeah, it's right in there.
Guest:There's this whole world of great music, and there's tons of stuff, tons of great things.
Marc:So what do you decide to do with this new enlightenment?
Guest:Well, what I realized, and then, you know, what's really weird is I happened, they taught a theater, the absurd class at the college, and I took it, and I realized, wow, this is like... Like Ian Esco?
Guest:Yeah, Pinter and Harold Pinter and all that, and it was like... Beckett?
Guest:Yeah, it was cool because the absurd gave you this fail-safe thing for comedy.
Guest:You can't fail at being absurd.
Guest:There's no wrong.
Guest:And that's right when Andy Kaufman was happening.
Guest:And it was like, that was the greatest thing that I've ever seen.
Guest:Freedom.
Guest:What he was doing.
Guest:He was actually creating this canopy that was above entertainment and kind of manipulating all of us
Guest:The show was all of us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there was something way above us that was observing it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And that's when those things all came together, and then I was kind of free, and then I started stand-up, and that's what...
Guest:And my thing was all kind of about inventions.
Guest:Like I was really fascinated with being an inventor.
Guest:And so I would invent these things.
Guest:I was trying to get them patented.
Guest:And I'll tell you another example.
Guest:I invented this thing called the frizz bat, which was like a bat you could hit Frisbees with.
Guest:So I built this thing.
Guest:I get this friend who's really good at throwing the Frisbee and we go down to the gym at the college and
Guest:And I had somebody set up a video camera because I'm testing it and he's throwing the disc and I'm hitting it and it's flying back across the gym.
Guest:It's working.
Guest:And I'm walking back and someone goes, what is that?
Guest:And I go, it's a frizz bed.
Guest:And he laughed at me.
Guest:He laughed really hard at me, this kid walking by.
Guest:And I understood that who I am is really funny.
Guest:I got it.
Guest:Like I just had to kind of pursue it and it would be okay.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's a frizz bat.
Guest:And he just laughed his ass off at me.
Guest:Like just a kid I didn't even know.
Guest:Right?
Guest:A frizz bat.
Guest:And that was kind of it where I just go, oh, I'm like already manufacturing all this.
Guest:I just have to let it happen.
Guest:And I just have to show it to people.
Marc:Not take myself seriously.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, if I just show them what I'm thinking and not... And the other thing I did was I guess, you know, I'm like slow.
Guest:I mean, I don't talk really fast.
Guest:It's like I'm not really energetic.
Guest:And somehow that kind of worked in my act.
Guest:And I didn't really understand this until I read Steve Martin's book.
Guest:Did you read that?
Guest:It's great.
Guest:Yeah, I hear it's good.
Guest:It's unbelievable.
Guest:And he...
Guest:He really describes how, in a really lucid way, how comedy works.
Guest:And it's kind of, I'm paraphrasing, but obviously he's a super smart guy.
Guest:And it was like he talked about tension and how you create tension and how the audience kind of rushes to figure out a way to release the tension.
Guest:And he kind of was using that theory.
Guest:And I, my age...
Guest:you know, Let's Get Small came out when I was like a junior or sophomore or junior in high school and it was like the biggest thing in the world.
Guest:Yeah, I was in junior high, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it was like the biggest thing in the world.
Guest:It was like the Beatles of stand-up in a way.
Guest:And so I didn't really understand that, but that's what was going on is I was actually like doing this thing and it was weird and it would create tension and then the audience started to find ways to pay it off.
Guest:And then I started to pay attention to what they were paying off and started building on that.
Guest:So...
Marc:so you know that's what stand-up is right you learn your stage self right yeah yeah it takes it can take a long time like you must have gotten figured out how to get to that like a few years ago it took me like 20 years really I mean I was effective but I wasn't popular in any way and I'm not sure I was my truest self it took me a long time to figure out like you know how to be me in the best form up there and I've been I've manifested a lot of different angles I was
Marc:angry and sweaty and provocative and then like, I always knew I was funny, but it was almost like most of my standup career was acting against that.
Guest:So you like rested and let it happen in a way.
Marc:Well yeah, the fear, it's a fear thing.
Marc:The fear goes away.
Marc:Like if you're funny because you're defensive or hostile and it's just how you deal with the anger or fear, that might not be the best night out for everybody.
Guest:Well, the other thing I got to tell you is I noticed just being here, you have a pretty strong aesthetic sense.
Guest:That's usually pretty unusual for guys that are comics.
Guest:Usually they don't gravitate to those things, but that's really obviously a big thing for you.
Guest:Pictures, instruments, records, you got to reflect.
Guest:You're always getting these beautiful things reflected back to you.
Guest:That's pretty unusual, I got to say.
Marc:But I know where that came from.
Marc:It's similar to you in the experience of masks.
Marc:You know, like this was, like when I was a kid, my grandmother's neighbors, the Nuricks, you know, they had a bunch of kids who were older than me.
Marc:Like they were like, you know, in their teens in the late 60s, you know, maybe 20 years old in the late 60s.
Marc:So when I was like five or six,
Marc:You know, I go over there and I go into Carrie's room, this dude, and it was just posters everywhere and pictures everywhere and records and records everywhere.
Marc:And I just sort of like, what the fuck?
Marc:This is the best place in the like.
Marc:It was the same feeling as seeing those masks.
Guest:Yeah, like you go, it's actually really great because this is waiting for me.
Guest:Like I get this one day.
Guest:Right, right, yeah.
Guest:It's so important.
Guest:It's so important.
Guest:The first mind-blowing.
Guest:Invitation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Invitation that this is going to be okay or this is going to be cool at a certain point.
Guest:And that's like so important that...
Guest:Well, how did they treat you?
Guest:Were they like cool?
Guest:Were they nice to you?
Guest:Oh, yeah, they were great.
Guest:They babysat us.
Guest:So it's like that's the best when there's an older kid who's cool and likes you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like means so much.
Marc:It's been my whole life because it's also because my dad was sort of absent.
Marc:emotionally and physically because he was working all the time so I was always sort of in that search and I didn't have an older brother but all the dads were pretty absent back then I guess and also my dad was pretty pretty good dad but he's pretty busy and pretty like working the whole time right they did that yeah
Marc:But like also the late 60s, because I was like in 69, 70, I was six and seven years old.
Marc:So culturally, that was what's coming at me.
Marc:You know, like Mad Magazine and just the news.
Marc:I remember seeing Vietnam on the TV, the protests like that.
Marc:It's frightening.
Marc:It was frightening, but I was like, those are the ones.
Marc:You know, those are the people who, they know who they are somehow or another.
Marc:They seem to be like there was a raw, wild, mystical trip going.
Marc:That resonated with me.
Marc:It wasn't the control guys.
Marc:You know, I didn't go for, you know, team military.
Marc:You know, innately, I was like, the chaos people, those emotionally fit what I'm into.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that stuck.
Guest:And that's ultimately playful, too.
Guest:Yeah, no, definitely.
Guest:It's like a child also goes, I don't want to ever grow up.
Guest:Like, it seemed to me like adults, all they ever did was, like, read stuff and talk on the phone.
Guest:And it's like, you're sitting there going, what the hell?
Guest:This seems terrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I got to talk on the phone.
Guest:Excuse me.
Guest:I'm going to write a check, and then I'm going to read a bill.
Guest:You go to bed.
Guest:Now, if we're really good, we'll watch the news.
Guest:If everyone's really good, we're going to sit down and watch Walter Cronkite.
Guest:That doesn't look like a good life.
Guest:No.
Guest:That's the last thing you want, even now.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:So your comedy act beginning, so you started doing it in like 81, 82?
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Basically, yeah, exactly.
Guest:81.
Guest:I was in college as my junior year of college when I started doing stand-up.
Guest:And I was right at the cusp of the comedy scene.
Guest:And Minneapolis was really right for it.
Guest:There were a lot of rooms.
Guest:There were a lot of good comics.
Guest:And it was just... Like who was your crew?
Marc:Johansson?
Guest:uh no uh louis anderson yeah a guy named alex cole yep jeff cesario yeah he was a midwest guy yeah he came from kenosha wisconsin um a guy named uh scott hansen who was kind of the empresario uh in there who ran all these rooms
Guest:Those were the guys, and they were all at Mickey Finn's.
Guest:Wild Bill Bauer, they were all at Mickey Finn's.
Guest:That was the place.
Guest:And I remember being in college, a guy named Roman Decare that was a really, really funny, cool guy.
Guest:But they were very hostile.
Guest:They had this attitude, the guys at Finn's.
Guest:I went in one night when I was in college and went and saw a show, and I didn't like the vibe.
Guest:It was kind of mean, mean shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then all these other rooms started opening up, the Comedy Cabaret and then the Comedy Gallery.
Guest:And they were a lot more open, a lot more nice.
Guest:And it was kind of infused.
Guest:It's a big improv town because of Dudley Riggs.
Guest:And so it's kind of a mix of improv.
Guest:And the Comedy Cabaret had everything.
Guest:They were trying everything.
Guest:So it was very wide open and very nice.
Guest:And there was no alcohol.
Guest:It was like a coffee shop.
Guest:So it was a good place for me to start figuring out my stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I've been performing since I was like in fourth grade, I had chops.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I knew how to end my act.
Guest:I knew a good opener.
Guest:I knew how to routine.
Guest:I had timing.
Marc:Were you bringing the inventions on?
Guest:Because I remember- Yeah, it was like a mix of a lot of retro stuff.
Guest:I'd use Rock'em Sock'em Robots and Etch-a-Sketch.
Guest:Rock'em Sock'em Robots.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And what were you doing with them?
Guest:What was the angle?
Guest:I mostly just was demonstrating them.
Guest:I mostly was just showing them.
Guest:I felt like I was kind of shocked that they were like psychic darts.
Guest:It was kind of like basically I figured out that there was a I mean, this this doesn't sound meaningful at all now because it's so in the culture.
Guest:But back then people were like electrified when I'd pull out these toys.
Guest:and it was like it was like it was weird and I'd sing the commercials so that was another weird thing because other comics were singing like Gilligan's Island right but I was doing commercials from the 60s and people were all remembering them so a lot of it
Guest:was these kind of psychic dart things where I was going, just kind of remember this, and people were really reacting to it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then I did, like, inventions, and I had, like, Bad Magic.
Guest:Bad Magic, well, that's a good one.
Guest:And stuff like that.
Guest:So it was kind of like... And I didn't really get that it was a lot... At the time, Steve Martin was so huge in my life, he really was like the Beatles that I didn't really understand I was, like, aping or doing a thing that was very similar to Steve Martin.
Marc:But there was a couple of guys that were doing...
Guest:like uh like prop oriented stuff it wasn't unusual yeah but but you know it seemed like your take on it was a little different and wasn't gallagher was like super like had a lot of energy and he's feisty but you were me like you were constructing things as well as yeah i was making things i was showing i remember that and so it was kind of a mix it was a mix of stuff it was just a mix of show showcasing things and
Marc:So when did the first wave of success come as a stand-up?
Marc:You did Young Comedians, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So what happened was when I got done with college, I did a brief tour through the Midwest, went through Kansas City and, you know, I can't remember, St.
Guest:Louis, I think.
Guest:I just kind of did a loop through.
Guest:And then my friend and I drove to L.A.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we went and lived in L.A.
Guest:And I auditioned.
Guest:uh i i already kind of had an in i got i got booked at the magic castle yeah that was like kind of my place i did the magic castle a ton like so you were you got real good at it yeah and it was like they liked me because i wasn't especially good at it like i was a calm i was like a valentine you know it was like kind of bad magic and bad weird bad props weird weird things yeah
Guest:It worked really good because I didn't threaten anybody.
Guest:It was really outside of that.
Guest:And that was another thing that really helped me as a stand-up is I was pretty different than anybody else.
Guest:And so I worked – really good comics didn't mind me opening for them.
Guest:So I would meet guys like –
Guest:Got to be good friends with Shanling and Jerry Seinfeld and those guys.
Guest:So it was like they liked me and helped me out.
Guest:So basically about two months in, I landed Letterman.
Guest:I got Letterman.
Guest:When you were out here, you mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There was like this guy who – it was really weird.
Guest:A mysterious guy stopped me one day in the Magic Castle, and he says –
Guest:Did you know Tony Giorgio's brother-in-law is Barry Sands, who produces Letterman Show?
Guest:And I said, no.
Guest:And he goes, yeah, and he's coming.
Guest:You should talk to Tony about showcasing.
Guest:You should go on Letterman.
Guest:And...
Guest:So Tony Giorgio was the guy, he's like a character actor and always played mafiosos.
Guest:Like he's in The Godfather and he's the guy who puts the knife in the guy's hand.
Guest:Yeah, I remember that guy, yeah.
Guest:And he was a really good, he's a great pickpocket, a really good card guy.
Guest:And he got me, uh, I got a showcase at the comedy magic club for Barry Sands and Tony Giorgio set it up for me.
Guest:And, um, and I got the gig.
Guest:So then two months in, I was 22.
Guest:I got on Letterman and that changed everything.
Guest:So suddenly I went from unpaid regular at the comedy store at Westwood to paid regular at the
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And then I was doing Letterman, so I was doing The Road.
Guest:And then I started, and then it kind of went dead for a while.
Guest:I think Letterman didn't have me back on.
Guest:And then I got the Uncomedian special.
Marc:That was the 1230 show, Letterman, not the daytime show.
Guest:Yeah, it was the night show.
Guest:So you flew to New York to do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it was exciting.
Guest:Yeah, it was great.
Marc:And Dave's a Midwesterner.
Marc:You must have hit it off.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:Yeah, he was really nice, and it was super cool.
Guest:And then we did the Young Comedian special, and then everything kind of turned around after that.
Guest:And then I got...
Guest:And then I became a regular on Letterman and a regular on Saturday Night Live for like, I was going back and forth like an episode on Letterman, episode on SNL.
Guest:So I did, in like a year I did eight of those.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then they started to go, you got to decide you're going to be on Letterman or SNL.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You have to decide.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Letterman wants you exclusive.
Guest:And so by that time I was kind of burning out on it and I didn't really have.
Marc:Were you touring as well?
Guest:Yeah, I was traveling.
Guest:As a headliner?
Guest:Yeah, I was headlining and just doing a lot of shows.
Guest:It was great, but it was kind of like I was starting to lose its meaning for me.
Guest:And I was like, I didn't know what I should do next.
Guest:I was like.
Marc:Well, how was the environment?
Marc:Like, you know, you're hanging out with drug addicts and freaks.
Guest:I didn't really.
Guest:I think I got spared from that for a lot of things.
Guest:There was a fair amount.
Guest:I mean, I was smoking pot back then.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And drinking a little bit.
Guest:But they were all pretty nice.
Guest:And I wasn't attracted to the danger, I think, the way you were.
Guest:I was kind of more scared of it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it was kind of easier for me to avoid that.
Guest:I ended up really gravitating towards the guys who are really into the craft.
Guest:Like, I love Shanling.
Guest:Shanling, like, he, like, mentored me kind of.
Guest:I didn't understand at the time, but he'd have me come over, and I'd bring my notebook, and he'd be writing, and I'd be writing.
Guest:And we did that, like, fairly often, and he'd, like, watch my set, and he'd talk to me about my sight lines and go, Joel, you got to... Why do you look in one spot?
Guest:You look... Your gaze is in one spot.
Guest:You got to...
Guest:you got to run your eyes over the audience.
Guest:And I go, but I can't see him.
Guest:He goes, yeah, but they can see you.
Guest:You got to like run your eyes over him.
Guest:And it's like, I go, oh, that's like really smart.
Marc:Yeah, I still have trouble with that.
Guest:After I did that, I just always do it and it's kind of fun.
Marc:Yeah, he mentored, you know, he was a very giving guy.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't get it at the time.
Guest:I just, I'm really frustrated that he's gone and I didn't like...
Guest:I haven't talked to him in 10 years.
Guest:And he passed.
Guest:Yeah, I'm frustrated about that.
Guest:And I remember coming back, and this is after I had moved back to Minneapolis, and I brought him a robot.
Guest:I was making these robots out of found objects, and I brought him one.
Guest:as a way of thanking him and he put it on his set like for it's gambling gary shannon so there's one of my robots on his set yeah but um and same with seinfeld too it was the same kind of relationship too but that was kind of we kind of got to be friends after i was doing stand-up and then um and we started like writing together i started writing with for him on a couple of things oh yeah
Guest:Are you guys still friends?
Guest:I wrote on his HBO special, his first HBO special.
Guest:And I helped him write the kind of interstitial stuff.
Guest:And yeah, we're still friends.
Guest:He's on the new Mystery Science Theater.
Guest:He does a cameo.
Guest:Oh, that's great.
Guest:And I did Comedians in Cars with him.
Guest:But yeah, he's still a friend of mine.
Guest:He's great.
Guest:Well, that's nice.
Guest:Yeah, right?
Guest:There's a bright spot.
Marc:So what happens when the meaning drained out?
Marc:It's because you're doing it.
Marc:You're at the top of your game, the comedy boom.
Marc:You're a Letterman regular.
Guest:You're a unique guy.
Guest:Yeah, the stress was kind of getting to me to have to create more and more material.
Guest:And build things.
Guest:And build stuff.
Guest:And travel with it.
Guest:And I didn't want to be on a sitcom.
Guest:Back then, the only thing you could do is be on a sitcom or write on a sitcom.
Guest:And I didn't like anything.
Guest:I didn't even like Cheers.
Guest:They brought me in to read for that part of Woody on Cheers.
Guest:And at that time, I didn't even think it was any good.
Guest:Now I think it's awesome, but back then I just thought, this is a sitcom.
Marc:Yeah, you were the anti-sitcom.
Marc:So that was where your pushback was.
Marc:You wanted to stay in the art.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't see myself.
Guest:And on top of that, I didn't fit in.
Guest:I'm not like that.
Guest:My stuff's really conceptual and I'm not like a joke writer.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it's not like I was a great joke writer.
Guest:Like I could plug into a sitcom and be that guy in the corners.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It wasn't that.
Guest:So then I, and then I just decided, oh yeah, it's like, maybe I should like quit and just see what happens to me.
Guest:Like, what is it going to feel like if I stop?
Guest:you know um what am what who am i right yeah so i went back to minneapolis and did like a big show to try to make money and then i like auctioned off all my props on stage on stage yeah at the end of the show and then i just kind of sat and was like trying to listen to myself just like what am i supposed to do now who am i now and so that was just kind of do you ask god for help hmm
Guest:That's interesting.
Guest:I don't remember.
Guest:It's not that clear to me.
Guest:I don't know if I did.
Guest:I'm not sure.
Guest:That's not part of my story, but I'm putting it in.
Guest:The day Joel asked God.
Guest:That's always the great thing, man.
Guest:I got to tell you, one thing that reminds me of is my family's from Cornwall, England, right?
Guest:And there was this family legend.
Guest:They had a ship.
Guest:And they'd go up from Cornwall to the North Sea and they'd get all this Norway pine and bring it down.
Guest:And supposedly the family legend was there was an incredible storm and your great, great, great grandfather prayed to God to stop the storm.
Guest:And if he did, if God stopped the storm and they lived, they'd become farmers in Wisconsin.
Guest:And that's the story.
Guest:And turns out like I ended up going to Cornwall, talking to some people and they said, oh, when did your family leave?
Guest:And I said, oh, like the late 1800s.
Guest:And they said, oh, that's right.
Guest:When there is a huge recession, everybody left.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it was like everybody dresses it up with the God story.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah, and they were giving away land in the American Midwest to Russian immigrants.
Guest:They got 500 acres for free just because they went there and put stakes in the ground.
Marc:Well, they had a real issue with actually farming in the terrain, so they needed people.
Marc:They brought in a lot of these people that, I can't remember who they were, but that were kicked out of Russia.
Marc:That's where you get the winter wheat.
Marc:The American government didn't know what to do with that land, but they knew that somebody could figure it out, so they let people
Marc:People are like, go ahead, take it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, Wisconsin is super, it's kind of a glitch because it's super fertile because the glacier moved through there.
Guest:So it's like the best farmland in the world.
Guest:So somebody screwed up.
Marc:I'm thinking about Minnesota too.
Guest:Somebody screwed up giving that away.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, all right, well, you corrected that, and now we're switching your story to you asked God for help, and he made you take some jobs, and then he delivered you robots.
Guest:He dropped Mystery Science Theater on me, and it was like so cool.
Marc:Which is weird, because there is sort of an omniscient element in the way it's structured.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Jeez.
Guest:Well, yeah, so I can tell you the story of that.
Marc:But did you like, how long were you in the wilderness, man?
Guest:Yeah, I don't know.
Guest:It seemed like a couple of years, but it was great because my friends were still hanging out and having this cafe society.
Guest:I was only in LA for like three years, so I had all these cool friends who were in bands and living in houses.
Guest:And that's when we were reading Jacques Ellul's The Technological Society, and I got into Marsha McCormick.
Guest:clune yeah yeah and all that so right and they were reading the the sacred canopy and all these you know theology books and talking about it and um and so that was like an unbelievable great time the replacements were happening it was like husker do yeah it was like uh the guy it was soul asylum it was all like perfect
Guest:That's great.
Guest:And so I got to be in on that and it was so, I appreciated it so much.
Guest:But anyway, so yeah, so I'm back in Minneapolis and I started doing this thing where I started making these robots out of found objects and it was a very instinctual thing.
Guest:As art?
Guest:Yeah, I was like kind of like, you know, at the Walker Art Center, there's this great sculpture that Picasso made where it's super simple, but it looks like a gorilla, but it's like a Volkswagen Tonka toy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he also would do that with like handlebars, like racing bike and bike seats.
Guest:Yeah, and make... And so I saw that and...
Guest:I kind of, it really spoke to me in a weird way because I realized like how primitive he was and like, you know, he could render stuff beautifully, but then he'd kind of alternate and do these really primitive things that were real.
Guest:Like it just spoke to me because all it was is, Hey, it kind of looks like a, it kind of looks like a gorilla head when you turn it this way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so that was part of it.
Guest:And also, um, you know, they, there was some information out, like, I think I saw a documentary about star Wars where they talked about kit bashing and,
Guest:And how they made all the vehicles and stuff out of, you know, model tank parts and stuff.
Guest:So then that kind of inspired me.
Guest:And I went to the Salvation Army.
Guest:Because I was always at the Salvation Army, like getting books and records.
Guest:Clothes.
Guest:And clothes and stuff that I would usually make into my act.
Guest:That's where most of my act came from.
Guest:It's just super cheap stuff from the...
Guest:salvation army that i'd repurpose and so there's all this brick brick so i bought a shopping cart of it cost me 10 bucks i got a hot glue gun and i just started trying to collage these robots out of found objects and they look pretty cool i like i was pretty capable i could put them together yeah yeah they look nice and there's a shop in minneapolis called props
Guest:And they started selling my robots.
Guest:So I sold like 50 robots.
Guest:I got pretty good at it.
Guest:Somewhere along the line, I guess I was starting to feel like I want to get back into show business.
Guest:I was kind of like growing out of thinking about it.
Guest:I had this idea so long ago.
Guest:This happened in high school.
Guest:You remember that Elton John record, Goodbye Yellow Brick Road?
Guest:Yeah, I love that record.
Guest:It's great.
Marc:Funeral for My Friend and Love Lies Bleeding?
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:That guitar comes in for Love Lies Bleeding?
Guest:It's great.
Guest:Best.
Guest:I used to do a magic trick to funeral for a friend.
Guest:And so anyway, with each song, there's these illustrations, right?
Guest:And in one of them, there's a song called I've Seen That Movie Too, and it's an illustration of a Clark Gable movie.
Guest:And there's theater seats and there's two people watching them.
Guest:And in high school, I looked at that and I said, oh, that would be a great thing for a show is like run a movie and then have these silhouettes and have these guys talk.
Guest:So that was that.
Guest:And then when I started thinking about it in Minneapolis, I started to go, well, I should do like a local TV show.
Guest:I should do just something that's cheap.
Guest:What's a cheap movie I could do?
Guest:And there was this other idea I had in college where there's this movie called The Turkey Awards.
Guest:The Medved Brothers did this book called The Turkey Awards where they basically did the opposite of the Academy Awards where they'd have the worst movies in the world.
Guest:And that's where I found out about Plan 9 and Robot Monster.
Guest:And I remember being in college saying, why isn't somebody making a show with these?
Guest:These are like adorable.
Guest:These are funny and great.
Guest:Why isn't anybody figuring out anything?
Guest:and so during that period i had the robots i had the idea with the silhouettes right i had the idea with the movies and i started to go you know i think these movies are like public domain i think i think are cheap i think robot monster plan 9 from outer space are public domain and i could do this movie like on a green screen i could do this show on a green screen
Guest:And so the first iteration was this thing called You Are Here.
Guest:And it was like a zombie apocalypse.
Guest:I based it on The Omega Man.
Guest:Remember that movie?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's Charlton Heston.
Guest:It's a zombie movie.
Guest:And there's a scene, this great scene where he goes to a movie theater and he watches Woodstock.
Guest:And I based it on that.
Guest:So it was me.
Guest:I was going to be like Charlton Heston.
Guest:And then there was a robot companion, Rex.
Guest:And that was the theater seats thing.
Guest:And we were held up in a TV studio.
Guest:And we were watching movies hoping it would attract who's ever survived.
Guest:So it was like a zombie apocalypse TV show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that was kind of where it sat for a while.
Guest:It was called You Are Here.
Guest:And then I started thinking about it and going, I don't know if I can make it funny with zombies.
Guest:Like it's a little...
Guest:It's an apocalyptic comedy show.
Guest:I don't know if I can do that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So then I started thinking about it and I realized, oh, I've always loved this Douglas Trumbull movie, Silent Running.
Guest:Do you remember that with Bruce Dern?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:these three robots i go oh that's it i'm a guy i'm trapped in space i'm having to watch these bad movies and i got three huey like huey doing louis from from silent running i'm gonna have three robots so i basically use that as a template right yeah and then that was it that was pretty much the idea and then along the lines of that
Guest:I had a warehouse space, the Colonial Warehouse, and in that space where these guys were making this slasher movie called Bloodhook.
Guest:And I met one of the guys, and it was Jim Mallon, and he was the director of it.
Guest:And he started to talk to me.
Guest:I think maybe this is six months later, and he had quit doing that.
Guest:He was working at this UHF channel.
Guest:He was managing it.
Guest:And he approached me and he said, oh, we want to do a show with comedians.
Guest:Like it's kind of like he pitched me like the gong show with comedians.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just was like so fed up with comics.
Guest:I didn't want to go back in the clubs.
Guest:I didn't want to work with the clubs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:are the comics and i just said oh get to know scott hansen he knows everything you need to know just go do that and um i'll build a trophy for you because i make stuff i'll build you a funny trophy but i didn't want anything to do with it just seems so pedestrian right and so but then i got home and i go shit this guy's got a studio
Guest:I got to pitch him my idea.
Guest:And so I sat down with him.
Guest:I always have kept notebooks since my freshman year of college.
Guest:And I showed him my notebook.
Guest:And it was basically the doorway sequence, the theater seats, watching a monster movie with the guy and a robot or two.
Guest:I had some designs for robots.
Guest:I was trying to think conceptually, but I really actually collage the robots.
Guest:So I, I kind of work with them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I don't really design them and then build them, but I was just trying to show, here's an idea for a robot.
Guest:Here's an idea for a robot.
Guest:And then, um, and I think that was kind of it.
Guest:And then he liked it and he said, well, we should, we should do a pilot.
Guest:We should shoot like a 15 minute pilot.
Guest:And so we set to work, working on it.
Guest:And, um,
Guest:Kevin Murphy was the editor there.
Guest:So if people know Mystery Science Theater, they know he became Tom Servo over a couple of years.
Guest:And we started doing it.
Guest:We started doing it.
Guest:And to do the creative stuff with me, I hired Trace Bullew and J. Elvis Weinstein.
Guest:And J. Elvis Weinstein was Tom Servo in Gypsy, and Trace Bullew was Crow.
Guest:And we started making these shows.
Guest:And
Guest:you know that's kind of it we started really slow i mean if you watch and i mean i were they public domain um well actually once we got to the once we got to the um once we got to the tv's channel they had already licensed all these movies and they happen to have some crummy movies that we use so they were already licensed so we didn't have to use public domain that was a local tv station
Guest:And that, yeah, the public domain thing was just my justification because I go, how am I going to riff on, how am I going to like say shit about people's movies without them suing me?
Guest:Is this against the law?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Could I get in trouble?
Guest:So the public domain thing kind of helped me get...
Guest:Kind of get into it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that was kind of it.
Guest:And then we did like 22 shows locally.
Guest:The whole idea was to sell it to cable.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then just around the same time, like I said, I worked.
Guest:During that time, I worked on Seinfeld's first HBO special and I met Stu Smiley there.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And Stu Smiley was the executive at the Comedy Channel.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so I had a friend there and I pitched it to him.
Guest:We made an eight-minute cell tape and that's it.
Guest:That's the story.
Marc:How many episodes did you end up making?
Guest:A total of almost 198 total.
Guest:that's insane yeah so you do all these and frank conness involved and yeah well after we got rolling you know we did the shows locally we got to go to comedy channel we finally got paid to do it and that's when we started writing it yeah before that we would just sit and it was like watching us riff at a party right just kind of talk and yeah we just started to figure it out but the the big thing was um
Guest:was the big thing was the thing that really canonized the show for me was when we cut together like an eight minute cell tape and we used our funniest bits and I go oh I get it the whole show's got to be like that rapid fire riffs and so when we went to got paid to do it we started writing it and that's when everything changed like if we would have tried to improv it would have been stupid but we wrote it and it worked
Guest:So, and people loved it.
Marc:It was so special and so important to so many people, but it was very specific.
Marc:And, you know, it's, it makes total sense that now would be the time to, to, to sort of reintroduce it to the world.
Marc:And, you know, and you've got all this new talent and new technology.
Marc:I remember there was a point there where you developed a show.
Marc:Cause I remember being asked if I wanted to be part of it somehow or something like, what was that?
Marc:Was it called the box TV wheel, the TV wheel?
Guest:It was first called the
Guest:Xbox.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then it became TV Wheel.
Marc:It was like a revolving set.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was built on a 32-foot turntable.
Guest:There was a lockdown camera in the middle, and it's all done in one shot.
Guest:So it was a sketch.
Guest:It was like Laugh-In or like a sketch show.
Guest:It was kind of like SNL, but you-
Guest:I think there was auditions for it at some point.
Guest:It had total context, though, because you understood there's a camera, there's a 32-foot turntable, and we have to do this all in real time.
Guest:There's no cuts.
Guest:There's no pre-produced pieces.
Guest:So the premise, all I was trying to do is just make something really live-feeling.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Because SNL was rolling more and more pre-produced films in, and I was just going, it doesn't feel live.
Guest:This is live.
Guest:It was just a pilot, though.
Guest:They didn't pick it up.
Marc:Right.
Right.
Guest:Well, I'm happy for you, Joel.
Guest:Thanks, man.
Guest:Sorry I've been handling this wicked-ass knife.
Guest:Whatever you got to handle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It just feels so good in my hand.
Marc:It's a nice weighty knife.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think someone left that in an apartment that I was living in or that I'd subletted to somebody and there was stuff and that was one of the things.
Guest:You got so many like...
Guest:It's really nice in here.
Marc:Thanks.
Guest:Like, I wonder like, what, what is it like when you're not, don't have this stuff?
Marc:I think about it all the time.
Marc:Like, cause I think like what happens to this stuff, how much of it is really important to me?
Marc:You know, like I've often thought about cleaning it out and, and,
Marc:making it different i just don't want to get dusty because it's starting to some days it feels like it like you know when those roadside attraction museums that are uncapped with freak shows and babies and jars and stuff but there's always like layers of dust on all the displays i don't want to become like that so i have to stay on top it hasn't got that vibe yet you kind of have a place for everything so it doesn't yeah not yet but um but there's a lot going on here i yeah
Marc:Yeah, it's cozy in a chaotic way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, all right.
Marc:Well, I'm going to watch.
Marc:I'll get caught up.
Marc:Thanks so much.
Guest:I really appreciate being here.
Guest:I'm a fan.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:That was me and Joel Hodgson in the garage.
Marc:What an amazing guy.
Marc:Great story.
Marc:Good dude.
Marc:Solid.
Marc:I'm very excited that that show is back.
Marc:You can watch the 14 brand new episodes and the old episodes now streaming on Netflix of Mystery Science Theater 3000.
Marc:No music today.
Marc:No music today.
Marc:Oh my God.
Marc:I need a break.
Marc:Boomer lives!