Episode 810 - Kevin Bacon
Marc:Okay, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I am Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF, my podcast.
Marc:Maybe you can tell by the slight audio difference than what it usually sounds like that I am not at home.
Marc:I am in New York City.
Marc:I am directly across from Central Park.
Marc:I can look out the window and see horsies and people and joggers and bikers.
Marc:And it's beautiful here in New York looking over Central Park.
Marc:Just to the left, there's some...
Marc:Trump owned property that I went down to the restaurant and I sat there and they said, you want to look out the window at the door to the Trump park or whatever it is?
Marc:And I said, I don't know.
Marc:I think I see enough of that name everywhere else in reality.
Marc:When I look at anything that maybe I'll look towards the lobby.
Marc:That's New York City.
Marc:Kevin Bacon is on the show today.
Marc:That's exciting.
Marc:I always wanted, you know, Kevin Bacon's one of those cats, you know, it's like there's always been a Kevin Bacon, you know, not the game aside.
Marc:You know, it's just like throughout my whole life, we're about the same age, but he's just always, Kevin Bacon's always just right over there.
Marc:Where's Kevin Bacon?
Marc:Oh, he's around.
Marc:And he's just always been part of my life as a personality, as an actor.
Marc:And it was interesting to talk to him because he's a solid dude.
Marc:He's a solid actor.
Marc:He's always fucking good.
Marc:And it was exciting to have the opportunity to talk to him.
Marc:New York City is fucking beautiful.
Marc:I'm happy to be here.
Marc:I haven't been here in a while, but it has been very busy.
Marc:I'll tell you why I'm here.
Marc:Because we're doing what they call in the racket.
Marc:I am here doing a bonafide press junket for the upcoming Netflix show.
Marc:Hello, the gorgeous ladies of wrestling.
Marc:I'm here with Betty Gilpin and Alison Brie.
Marc:And basically what a junk it is.
Marc:And I'll be honest with you, this is the first time I've ever done this.
Marc:I'm very proud of the show.
Marc:It looks great.
Marc:It's original.
Marc:It's interesting.
Marc:It's funny.
Marc:It's deep.
Marc:It's a world that you haven't seen before.
Marc:And it's exciting.
Marc:It's exciting to be part of it.
Marc:Obviously, I acted on my own series for four years, but that got little to no attention and certainly not a press junket.
Marc:So this is my first time doing this.
Marc:It's where Netflix has flown us out here.
Marc:They put us up at a hotel I usually don't stay at.
Marc:It's fancy.
Marc:And yesterday you get up in the morning and the three of us go to another location, another suite in another hotel.
Marc:And we sit there in front of a camera crew.
Marc:And every four minutes, someone from a different local or national network outlet comes in and interviews us with slightly different approaches to interview four and a half to seven minutes for three hours.
Marc:And, you know, you get a groove going and we've got a good chemistry, me and the ladies.
Marc:And that was fun and interesting.
Marc:Then you eat an OK lunch and then you go do a series of roundtables for print interviews for the next three or four hours.
Marc:And then you do a little social networking platform stuff for Netflix.
Marc:And then I come back to the room and then the ladies go do some other stuff because it's their show.
Marc:It's the ladies show.
Marc:I'm just the guy on board.
Marc:I'm the one guy in the world of women of GLOW.
Marc:But it was great seeing people do the thing.
Marc:You know, we all kind of have to do the thing in show business.
Marc:You know, do the interview, turn on the juice, you know, sell the show.
Marc:And just to watch it evolve over time is pretty amazing.
Marc:There is professionalism.
Marc:Whatever you think of whatever we do, and I certainly am not at the level of Allison in terms of acting or anything, but the job of being in show business when you are working is pretty intense and it's beautiful to watch professionals do it.
Marc:You know, there's a camaraderie here.
Marc:We're in the same game.
Marc:And some people are great at it and some people are okay at it.
Marc:But, you know, showing up for this stuff is pretty fucking exciting.
Marc:And it was really fun to watch them, you know, do it as well.
Marc:Is it okay if I have a good time in these end times?
Marc:Is it okay if I have a good day, an exciting day, even though I'm still feeling a little under the weather?
Marc:I hope this isn't the end of me.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:You know, I don't like being this age where, you know, you get a little buggy and then you're like, oh, is this it?
Marc:Is this the harbinger of the end of me?
Marc:Spent some time with my pal, Sam Lipsight, had a little dinner.
Marc:You know, it's wild when you don't see friends as often as you probably should see friends.
Marc:And something I've learned from doing the podcast for so long is a lot of times you got to catch up.
Marc:And a lot of times that seems like a very stilted process and it seems somewhat, you know, forced.
Marc:So it's funny what me and Sam is that like when I see him, I'm like, you know, do you have a few hours?
Marc:Because we're going to have to sit and do it.
Marc:Because, you know, they I haven't talked to him in months.
Marc:So, you know, he's had his life going on.
Marc:I got my life going on.
Marc:He's got his problems.
Marc:I got my problems.
Marc:He's got his successes.
Marc:I got my successes.
Marc:So when we go out, you know, we meet, took a train and you start the conversation.
Marc:We get to dinner.
Marc:You continue the conversation, but not unlike a podcast.
Marc:Sometimes it takes a while to break through.
Marc:to the, uh, the, the engagement and the relaxation and the just hanging out part.
Marc:And, uh, it's, it's always sort of beautiful.
Marc:There's an arc to it.
Marc:It ends up, if it starts off a little like, uh, God things.
Marc:And then, you know, you have dinner and you get some laughs going, you get a little, you know, uh, yeah, some, some, uh,
Marc:Thoughts go in and some ideas go in just in conversation.
Marc:And then you kind of then we took a like a nice long 2030 block walk and kind of eased into a the friendship part and then just spending time together and talking it through.
Marc:But over the three or four hours.
Marc:It all came together.
Marc:There's no editing with that.
Marc:You can't go back and cut things or add things.
Marc:But sometimes to really connect with somebody, take some time and hang in there and you wait for it to happen if the relationship is important to you.
Marc:It's just something you got to do.
Marc:You got to do.
Marc:And it doesn't get any easier the longer time you spend not talking to somebody.
Marc:So stay in touch with the people you love.
Marc:if possible, and have those nice long conversations.
Marc:That's another little public service announcement from me because it's worth it.
Marc:It's worth it.
Marc:Those things are important.
Marc:Life goes by.
Marc:Things seem daunting.
Marc:Everything gets filled up.
Marc:You get busy.
Marc:You get distracted.
Marc:All of a sudden, your time is being eaten by any number of things.
Marc:Make sure you take time to really get in and connect with the people that are important.
Marc:That's what makes life good.
Marc:There are things that make it good.
Marc:It's not just like, oh, I got it.
Marc:And then I'm going to and then like, oh, my God, what happened?
Marc:Is this going to why I got to be that the thing?
Marc:And I don't know if I can do that.
Marc:Oh, what's what's on for later today?
Marc:Where do I got to be tomorrow?
Marc:Why is that person calling me?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Shut it down.
Marc:Take some time.
Marc:Connect with some friends.
Marc:Today's Thursday, so tomorrow I'm going to be in Philly.
Marc:I think there's a few tickets for the Philly show.
Marc:It's tomorrow night, May 12th at the Miriam Theater.
Marc:I think there might be a few tickets for that.
Marc:That's my second to my last date of this tour, which may be the final tour for a while.
Marc:And then on Saturday, May 13th, I'm going to be down at the Warner Theater.
Marc:In the Heart of the Beast, Washington, D.C.
Marc:I wonder how that place feels now that things are shifting.
Marc:But I believe that show is pretty close to selling out at the Warner Theater.
Marc:If you want tickets for either of these shows, you can go to wtfpod.com slash tour.
Marc:There's direct links for you there to go to the place that has the tickets.
Marc:And on June 3rd, the next live appearance is BookCon.
Marc:Also, there's a link for that at WTFPod.com slash tour.
Marc:That's me and Brendan, Brendan McDonald.
Marc:My producer and business partner are going to be down there doing a thing for the book, waiting for the punch.
Marc:Which is very exciting.
Marc:The more I think about that book, the more excited I am for you guys to get your hands on it.
Marc:You can pre-order it.
Marc:You can get that link too, I believe, at the website under book.
Marc:Very clever.
Marc:Waiting for the punch.
Marc:Yeah, you can pre-order the book.
Marc:And I'll tell you, man, it's so wild to read what people say.
Marc:And it's just one of those books that you can pick up anywhere and just open it up anywhere and kind of engage with it.
Marc:Sort of like conversation, but very proud of it and very excited to to get it into your hands.
Marc:So what else is happening next week?
Marc:I'm going to I'm going to be shooting another episode of Joe Swanberg's Easy in Chicago.
Marc:And then I think finally I get to to relax as much as possible in the current world that we live in.
Marc:Uh, it's been a long run between the tour of the podcast, um, glow, the, uh, you know, shooting the special, everything else.
Marc:I, I really weren't, I gotta, I gotta stop for a minute.
Marc:I'm not gonna stop doing this, but I, I've got to figure out how to take a breath.
Marc:Cause my body is, and my mind are wearing down.
Marc:I'm certainly not complaining.
Marc:I'm, uh, excited to be busy, but, uh, but, uh, you know, I gotta, you know, I feel beat up folks.
Marc:I feel beat up.
Marc:So I'm on the plane and I'm about to sit down in my seat.
Marc:I'm coming from L.A.
Marc:to New York.
Marc:And who gets on the plane?
Marc:Werner Herzog.
Marc:Now, I thought I had a pretty good conversation with Werner Herzog, and a lot of times when I talk to people, even though it's for a nice long time, whatever my emotional connection in that hour or hour and a half or however long I spend with them is uniquely mine.
Marc:It does not necessarily mean it's theirs or anything else.
Marc:And a lot of times I run into them.
Marc:I don't have any real expectations.
Marc:I don't assume that we're friends.
Marc:Some people I know and I see and I think I could be friends with, but generally I don't socialize with people I meet on the podcast.
Marc:But, you know, Werner Herzog, that was a big deal.
Marc:That was a big day.
Marc:And, you know, I felt like I had some familiarity with the guy that I could at least, you know, say hello.
Marc:So, you know, he's getting on behind me and I'm about to sit down and I go, Mr. Herzog, how are you?
Marc:And he looked at me like he had no fucking idea who I was at all.
Marc:But, you know, I think that's the way he looks.
Marc:And I go, it's me, Mark.
Marc:You know, we talked in my garage.
Marc:He's like, oh, yes, yes.
Marc:OK.
Marc:You know, and I'm like, OK, yeah.
Marc:He's like, hi.
Marc:And he just literally gave not a fuck, not one fuck.
Marc:And, you know, I wasn't hurt.
Marc:I wasn't surprised.
Marc:I'd actually be surprised if if if Werner Herzog didn't do that.
Marc:But there was part of me that I'm like, God, does he even remember that we talked?
Marc:You know, and oh, my God.
Marc:And then it was just it was it was kind of funny.
Marc:I found it funny.
Marc:I was not insulted.
Marc:I was sort of happy that that's the way he responded.
Marc:And, you know, and then I thought, like, OK, so he's sitting a couple of seats behind me.
Marc:There's Werner Herzog.
Marc:You know, what if the plane goes down?
Marc:Would he be narrating it in his mind?
Marc:The plane is crashing.
Marc:They're screaming all around me.
Marc:Smoke is filling the cabin.
Marc:I realize now I know the man who said hello to me.
Marc:It is of no consequence now.
Marc:I do a terrible Werner Herzog, and I'm not good at impressions, but I thought it was a good idea.
Marc:I thought it was a funny idea that maybe he would remember me in that flat presentation.
Marc:I'm not going to explain the fucking joke, folks.
Marc:So Kevin Bacon is on the show.
Marc:He's in this new series called I Love Dick, which I watched like three or four of, and I thought it was, again, not unlike a lot of shows now.
Marc:It's like a completely surprising show.
Marc:world that you would never know about or it's already believe it even exists but it's kind of an interesting show Catherine Hahn is fucking genius in it Griffin Dunn also great and Kevin is great it's produced executive produced by Jill Soloway premieres tomorrow Friday May 12th again on Amazon it's an Amazon series and this is this is me and Kevin Bacon back in the garage music music
Guest:so what how's it going it's going pretty well yeah you don't live out here though uh i finally uh a few years ago broke down and got a little place out here you did yeah um so my wife and i were kind of like very committed la haters yeah yeah sure and and uh you know we i think so often we kind of defined ourselves with this
Guest:new york kind of thing and and she grew up in new york i grew up in philly but i moved to new york when i was a kid when i was like 17 so i definitely felt more connected to that sure and um you know the reason uh i guess was kind of complicated but i think part part was sort of like this um kind of love hate thing that i have with this with with the business and with the city and all that kind of stuff you know yeah sure but
Guest:She was on a television show for seven years.
Guest:So for seven years straight, six months of the year, some combination of the two of us was living either in a hotel or a rented house.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And eventually, at the very last year of her show, or I guess it was eight years now that I think about it,
Guest:We stopped and said, you know, I think we're really going to miss this neighborhood.
Guest:And we were living in this great funky house.
Guest:You'd appreciate this.
Marc:Around here?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And this house was built, I think, in the 20s.
Guest:And it's owned by an Italian rock star.
Guest:He's like the Bruce Springsteen of Italy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he bought this house as an investment and rents it out.
Guest:But what's super cool about it is that there was an old speakeasy that was built into the basement of the house.
Guest:And they turned into a recording studio.
Guest:So it's like this fantastic- And you do the music.
Guest:Is it usable?
Guest:Oh, it's fantastic.
Guest:So we rented that house and then moved up the street.
Guest:And, you know, I love L.A.
Guest:now.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I've completely turned around.
Guest:It got you.
Guest:I think it was, I think it had, I don't really know what it is growing up or changing my attitude or appreciating a different neighborhood, you know, kind of being like over on this side of town.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:Now I'm like, I'm crazy about it.
Guest:And frankly, I think my wife is kind of digging on it more than New York.
Guest:I don't know if I'm quite there yet.
Marc:that's one of the things that, I mean, you might, maybe you're a sociable person, but, uh, out here, one of the things that's easy to get sort of isolated because you do have to drive.
Marc:Like everything, everything's diminished by the idea that sort of like, now we've got to go to their house on the West side.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Fuck.
Guest:No, I don't.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I'm the same way.
Guest:I'm the same way.
Guest:Can't we meet them halfway?
Guest:Is it a restaurant?
Guest:Well, a lot of times we have those negotiations with our friends.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, we're like, let's look at the map and see.
Guest:There's got to be a restaurant somewhere between us.
Guest:But the thing is that they always have it worse because they've got to get it on the other side of the 405.
Marc:Yeah, I can't.
Marc:I try to avoid the West Side entirely.
Marc:And I hear it's nice.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I can't.
Marc:I don't understand it.
Marc:I don't do it.
Marc:So it's weird.
Marc:I think I have this thing where a connection, like I think you and I were on a gig.
Marc:in D.C., but you were playing in the band with your brother.
Marc:I don't remember what it was for, but I think I did stand-up, and you guys closed it out, but I didn't talk to you.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But I have this weird connection, I think.
Marc:Your brother, the guitar player, his name is Michael, was a teacher at a camp I went to, Lighthouse Arts and Music Camp in Pottsville, Pennsylvania.
Marc:Is that possible?
Marc:I don't think he was there when I was there because he was like their big alumni and he came back and he played.
Marc:Like Jim Croce also, I think, taught there.
Guest:Well, I know that he had played at a camp in PA.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it was called Charlestown Playhouse.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I don't know if the lighthouse went in Pottsville, but it's certainly possible.
Guest:I'll have to ask him.
Guest:Well, yeah, I think he was actually like a teacher there.
Marc:No kidding, huh?
Marc:Well, that was the impression I got.
Guest:I might have forgotten about that, but he's 10 years older than me, so sometimes there's things in his life that I don't remember.
Guest:Well, you could have been 10.
Guest:You could have done it in his 20s.
Guest:Yeah, right, exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly, exactly.
Guest:So that's fascinating.
Guest:I'll ask him about that.
Marc:It's weird, man.
Marc:man because i remember him coming up and playing and it was like that's kevin bacon's brother which has to be at some point sort of the bane of his popularity but he's been playing folk music forever right oh yeah yeah yeah he he's never done anything other than than play music and now uh he's a composer uh doing a lot of movie
Guest:stuff does a lot of movie stuff and a lot of documentaries and he also is a professor now um so he's teaching composing and um film score and stuff like that so he's besides the band he's got a whole lot of other you know he made the shift he was like i gotta make a living yeah well it's interesting you know he when you talk about what we do you know a lot of people have done um other kinds of gigs in their life you know i i was a you know i worked on a
Guest:warehouse and then i was a bus boy and then i was a waiter you know i had a lot of sort of jobs my brother's never done anything right other than playing guitar then make music and make a living at making music right which is really like like when i think about that that's just kind of such a an accomplishment you know it's crazy life you know and i'm glad that he's he's sort of uh evolved into these other avenues with it
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Because sometimes if you're just hammering away, playing the music and things don't, and you don't, like I had that moment where you get to a certain point in your life and things aren't working out and you don't know how, what are you going to fucking do?
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:It's like, you know, like I can't, what am I going to reenter the workforce at 45?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The last job I had was like, yeah, I was a grill cook.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, sort of like, yeah, maybe a restaurant.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Big gap in the resume.
Marc:No, I know.
Guest:It's, it's, it's.
Guest:But when did you work?
Guest:Well, when I got out of high school, I had a high school where if I did enough kind of gathering of credits, sort of like it was set up more kind of like a college, I could graduate early.
Guest:So I got out half a year early and then I was still down in Philly and I was working packing and shipping medical books.
Guest:And then it was the summer of 1976 and Philadelphia was getting excited about having the bicentennial.
Guest:And I joined up with this kind of avant-garde theater group.
Guest:And keep in mind, I was literally like 17 years old.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they let me in and we were going to create sort of like a musical theater thing for this bicentennial that was going to be... And of course, I was really excited because here were these older actors and a lot of them were beautiful women.
Guest:They were probably...
Guest:20.
Guest:I thought of them as like older, kind of established people.
Guest:And we would have these rehearsals where we would sort of like do theater games and trust exercises and pretend that you're an eggplant and all that kind of stuff.
Guest:And it didn't really seem to be going anywhere.
Guest:And I was simultaneously working in this warehouse to make some money.
Guest:And I hadn't applied to college because I really didn't want to go to college because I was so clear on the fact that I wanted to be an actor.
Guest:And all of a sudden, about a couple of months before the bicentennial, I quit.
Guest:You quit?
Guest:Yeah, I quit.
Guest:I mean, it's like, I was just such a cocky little shit.
Guest:I was like, you know, I can't, I'm not going to do this.
Guest:I'm going to go to New York.
Marc:Well, what was the plan for the big performance?
Marc:Was it a guerrilla performance?
Guest:No, I think it was going to be like a show.
Guest:And, you know, frankly, I don't even know if it ever got together, but it was a pretty, you know, they were definitely people who had had sort of experience with this thing before.
Guest:But I just said, you know, man, I got to get...
Guest:I got to get to New York.
Guest:I loved Philly, but New York was like a giant magnet that was just kind of pulling me up.
Guest:That's where it happened.
Guest:And so when I got there, that's when I got a job as a busboy.
Marc:But when did you start doing acting?
Marc:I mean, you come from a huge family, right?
Guest:Yeah, I'm the youngest of six, but I don't remember ever not being an actor, even before I knew what an actor was.
Guest:Right, but did you do it in high school?
Guest:Did you do plays?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:i did everything i possibly could i did everything i could i did um every single play we didn't have much theater in my school but then i would work um on the weekends i i apprenticed at a theater called the uh manning street actors theater yeah and i would literally sweep the stage and you know anything i could do to hang around the right so it was words right sure yeah yeah so there was a community theater
Guest:there was always people around it had a full uh yeah you know crew all the time sure sure there were a couple of community theaters um in in philly uh manning street was a little bit more of a professional theater yeah um uh i i obviously wasn't getting paid but but there were people who were getting paid
Marc:Did you see big shows there?
Marc:Did you get an opportunity to watch?
Guest:No, I didn't really go to the theater that much.
Guest:I really didn't.
Guest:My parents didn't really take me, and I didn't really have the money, and I would go to the movies.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, as soon as I could... You know, it was that thing where R... All the good movies were R, let's face it, in the 70s.
Guest:You know, all the good stuff from Coppola and... Ashby and... Yeah, Scorsese and... De Palma.
Guest:De Palma, yeah.
Guest:That was all the good stuff.
Guest:And they were all R, so we would have to...
Guest:you know either pretend to be older than we were you know just try to figure it out and i was not an old looking guy so yeah um that was hard but i almost sometimes had a hard time watching movies because especially when i was a little boy because it was almost as though i wanted to get home and play that part like right it was so hard for me not to be in it right i mean to like look at it and not be a cowboy or not be you know whatever an asterman or fireman you know so like i would come home
Guest:and just dress up as that thing and start pretending to be that thing.
Guest:So that's what I mean.
Guest:You had an active fantasy life.
Guest:I did, a very active fantasy life, and I really always wanted to be another character.
Marc:Is that because were you... I have to imagine being the youngest of six kids, your parents were probably like... Totally.
Guest:Well, they had five kids and then eight years later I was born, so you do the math.
Guest:There's no way they wanted to have another child.
Marc:Was that a Catholic thing?
Marc:No, they're not Catholic.
Marc:No, no, no.
Guest:Just an accident?
Guest:Just an accident, yeah.
Guest:My mother kind of denied it and I was like, please.
Guest:And then she eventually came around to calling me a happy accident or something like that.
Guest:But you know...
Guest:So everyone was out of the house by the time you were 10?
Guest:They were, but even when I was very... Yeah, by the time I was 10, they were all gone.
Guest:But even when I was really, really young, I can remember walking into a room and just wanting people to look at me.
Guest:and figuring out some way to be entertaining.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:That was like a very, very strong drive.
Marc:But that sort of makes sense to be in an emotional environment where they just brought up five kids.
Marc:Like you must have on some level felt like, you know, where's mine?
Marc:Where's the attention?
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:It was awesome.
Guest:I was such an independent kid.
Guest:And look, I don't know if that's like nature nurture, right?
Guest:Maybe they weren't giving me the attention, so I had to become that person.
Guest:Maybe I naturally came out that way.
Guest:That I don't know.
Guest:But I often say that when I left home, and I'm not sure they noticed...
Guest:that I had split.
Guest:On the other hand, they were incredibly supportive of me doing what I wanted to do.
Guest:Nobody ever said, don't you need something to fall back on?
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, they were very supportive.
Guest:And your dad was like, what was his game?
Guest:My dad was a... He was a city planner of Philadelphia for many, many, many years.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:And he was actually kind of an important person because he...
Guest:And he was at the time when there was urban sprawl, not urban sprawl so much as a white flight.
Guest:A white flight.
Guest:White flight.
Guest:And suburbs were becoming the place to be.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it just took all the blood out of the downtown.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And his life's battle was to bring...
Marc:life back to cities and they did it they did it in philly philly's like one of those places where i go and i'm like this is great because it's got a there's definitely a defined type that philly is a place yes you know it's like you know i go there there's a couple of sandwiches i like i know that basically the type of dudes i'm gonna run into sure yeah but uh but like that whole downtown area has been you know reborn sure and your dad was sort of the beginning of that evolution and
Guest:He was, although I think that... Yeah, no, he definitely was.
Guest:And, you know, by the time he... In some ways, some things were more successful than others, but it was his... It ran through his veins.
Guest:And just cities in general.
Guest:I mean, he was obsessed with...
Guest:all cities was he saddened that they were dying or you know because because it was so vital in his you know he was he was and the and the older he got um the more sort of like impassioned he got yeah yeah and he didn't get less passionate he got more and more passionate and more kind of like eccentric and stuff i mean i'll give you an example he long after he retired in fact i think he was about
Guest:Wow, he lived for a while, huh?
Guest:Yeah, he lived until he was 94, but I think he was about 92 or 90.
Guest:There was a park in Philly called Love Park, and it's called Love Park because it has that L-O-V-E sculpture there, right?
Guest:And it became a mecca for skateboarders.
Guest:skaters yeah loved it because they could grind on all these built-in things and basically they were kind of like the only ones who were using it uh-huh and the city came to them and said you can't you know you're fucking up all the all the furniture and all the all the you know the the everything is like being destroyed so we have to kick all the skaters out of love park and
Guest:And my father- There's no love there.
Guest:There's no love there, right.
Guest:So it became illegal, okay, to be on a skateboard in Love Park.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He went down and got on a skateboard, tried to get arrested.
Guest:At 92?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They put a helmet on him.
Guest:And had a couple of people hold him and like rolled him around on a skateboard.
Guest:I think there's actual video of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I don't think the cops actually arrested him, but that was his dream because he, so he actually at that age, believe it or not, I'll run into skaters that'll say, oh, your dad was like,
Guest:Dude, your dad is such a hero for us, man.
Guest:And I think they actually ended up having like a, not having anything to do with him, but I think there's actually a Love Park video game or something like that.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So it's like that kind of stuff.
Guest:A skateboard video game?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People using spaces, public spaces, was really, really important to him.
Marc:And so are all your sibs still around?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And did any other ones other than your brother Michael go into show business?
Marc:No.
Marc:No.
Marc:Did they go into city work?
Guest:Yeah, some are in city work.
Guest:And one is an events planner.
Guest:Another works for Arts Council in Vermont.
Guest:And another is in the private sector.
Guest:They're in a whole bunch of other stuff.
Guest:And we're very close together.
Guest:Really?
Guest:That's great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We do the big family thing.
Guest:We do.
Guest:We have a giant Thanksgiving.
Guest:We don't do Christmas, but we do a giant Thanksgiving.
Guest:Well, that's nice.
Guest:It's amazing.
Guest:We do it at our house in New York at our apartment.
Marc:And everyone's got kids, so there's like 50 people there?
Guest:Yeah, it's usually about between 40 and 50.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah, because my wife has a big family, too.
Guest:She's got like a Brady Bunch kind of family.
Guest:Right, and she's like deep New York.
Guest:They're all around, right?
Guest:Yeah, it's crazy.
Guest:It's my favorite holiday, I mean, because what's wrong with eating and giving thanks?
Marc:No, nothing.
Marc:And sometimes, once a year, you see everybody, it's good.
Marc:For most people, that's like, just to write them out.
Marc:Then we got that day or two, and then we're out.
Marc:So when you started the acting, because it's weird that when you were coming over, my memory of you is pretty entrenched.
Marc:You're part of my cultural upbringing.
Marc:Kevin Bacon was sort of always there somehow.
Marc:But when you started, I mean, really young, going to New York, so did you train or were you just driven by cockiness?
Marc:How did it work?
Marc:I did train.
Guest:With who?
Guest:I went to the Circle in the Square Theater School first in their summer program, which was really for high school-age kids.
Guest:And then...
Guest:i asked them if i could audition for their winter thing it was a two-year program yeah and they said you're too young and i said can i please just audition and and i got into that and so i was um going to school there working as a waiter at circle in the square yeah i was going to circle square and and and working as a as a as a waiter uh or a busboy depending on which place i was at but at night
Guest:and trying to learn as much as I could and try to make a living.
Guest:Well, from those days, what things did you learn then that you still use?
Guest:Yeah, you know, it's funny because I was in school because I kind of felt like I needed to be in school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But on the other hand, I also had this sort of attitude that there was nobody that could teach me anything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I was so...
Guest:um such a combination of like the confidence for absolutely no reason uh and also terrified you know my you know my yeah that's the that's the artist line that's the that's the edge we go on just right paralyzing fear and weird cockiness exactly and i feel like you need to have that kind of sure you know combination of that it's like
Guest:The Emperor's New Clothes, right?
Guest:You're going to be exposed for being a fraud, but in order to not be exposed for being a fraud, you got to pretend like you know what the fuck you're doing.
Guest:And I didn't... While I was in school...
Guest:I often felt like I don't really know why we're doing this, and I don't know why this teacher is saying this, and it was kind of more about me trying to do well or do better or get compliments or something like that.
Guest:But the truth is that now, and for many years,
Guest:I'll go back and I'll think about something that I was taught.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:And I'll go, they were absolutely right.
Guest:Like, that was, like, if I just listened to that, you know what I mean?
Guest:Like, if I left myself, everyone's got their journey, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it doesn't really matter.
Guest:It's worked out okay.
Guest:But if I'd left myself open to the fact that there were people who could teach me, not just about acting, but also about, like, the business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:like you know i had an agent um who uh you know uh just passed recently and and he was you know my first agent and you know stuck with me for years and years and years but it's like i never let him guide me in a weird sort of way did he offer yeah sure yeah yeah and i was just oh i got this i'm not gonna do that i'm gonna do this i'm not gonna do that you know what i mean
Guest:And really, I think that if I could tell the younger me something, that's what I would say.
Guest:It's like, dude, just people know shit from having been around and seen things.
Marc:Hard to trust people, though.
Marc:It's hard to trust people in the sense that you don't know, especially in this business, whether someone's coming at you...
Marc:For their own benefit or, you know, actually thinking about your best interest.
Guest:But did you have a mentor or were you able to look at other, you know, comics and say, or listen to their advice?
Marc:Well, you know, with comedy, it's a little easier.
Marc:You know, you sort of like, what is the tone?
Marc:You know, it's all you up there.
Marc:So, you know, you're in a narrow context.
Marc:So how are you going to use that thing?
Marc:You know, you can look up to people and like people's comedy and aspire to honesty or one line, whatever it's going to be.
Marc:So it's a little more of a gypsy sort of approach.
Marc:But you still have to be yourself.
Marc:Well, yeah, you want.
Marc:That's ultimately what I wanted to get at.
Marc:But, you know, in terms of business, I didn't understand show business until a few years ago.
Marc:I mean, I'm in my garage, too.
Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, I was a stubborn asshole, and I never understood that, you know, maybe it's good to be diplomatic and acknowledge that, you know, that assistant's going to be the king of Hollywood at some point, that people hold grudges, and that, you know, you can fuck yourself real easy.
Marc:You know, just by being cocky.
Marc:I learned that.
Marc:But, you know, fortunately, I landed on my feet somewhat.
Marc:Sure did.
Marc:But I don't know.
Marc:I believe that people who act...
Marc:There's a lot of natural talent there.
Marc:I mean, either you can do it or you can't on some level.
Marc:I mean, like there's a lot that you can't explain.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think I think that's true.
Guest:I think that's true.
Guest:But I also think you can get better.
Guest:I mean, when I look at, which I really don't because it makes me so nuts.
Guest:It does?
Guest:Yeah, to look at early work, I mean, I just go, oh, fuck.
Marc:Well, how'd the first role come?
Marc:I mean, I remember you as, what was it, Fenwick?
Marc:I remember Fenwick.
Guest:Animal House was the first movie that I ever did.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And it wasn't my first role because I was very, very into theater.
Guest:And I, although I ended up on soap operas, but that was actually after Animal House.
Guest:What kind of theater were you doing?
Guest:Oh, I did an off-Broadway regional theater.
Marc:Weird shit?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was thinking about the other day about research, you know, how you throw yourself out.
Guest:I was talking to John Lithgow in an interview about the research that both of us had done to do those parts in Footloose.
Guest:I was thinking about a play that I did called 40 Deuce, which was probably back in the late 70s.
Guest:I was playing a male prostitute drug dealer.
Guest:In those days, they called him a chicken.
Guest:And there was a bar in an area in Times Square where these young boys would get off the bus and go, and they would meet these Johns at this bar.
Guest:The terminal bar?
Guest:It was actually called, I think it was called the Haymarket.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and i spent like a lot of time being that now i'd never turned a trick right but when i think back on that first off i was able to do that kind of research were you like 20 no no no no like 18. uh-huh you know yeah yeah i get like 18 or 19 i would think then there was 53rd street where at night these guys would cruise and um i would go down there and and and walk around and and you know like
Guest:it was so interesting to be in a situation where nobody knows who you are yeah obviously it's something that i couldn't really do now right and um and to just look at a different side of life that's not your experience and it's a little menacing it was menacing oh yeah it definitely was it definitely was so you're out there like presenting yourself as meat
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And you're getting all that weird juice.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But those experiences were incredibly rich and helpful, too, in terms of just playing the part.
Guest:It did help.
Guest:Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure.
Guest:So that's the kind of theater, to answer your question, that I was doing.
Guest:Down and dirty and very, very kind of strong character kinds of parts.
Marc:But you took it on yourself to, like research is an important part of your trip.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, in order to build the guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that sticks.
Marc:That still happens.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you go, well, what good did it actually do?
Guest:And you don't really know.
Guest:It's very hard to look at the performance and go, oh, I got that from doing that.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:What I was talking to John Lithgow about was when I got the part in Footloose, I was 23, I think, or 24.
Guest:And I was supposed to be playing a 17-year-old high school student.
Guest:And I was afraid that I wasn't... I was like, how can anybody think of me as a 17-year-old?
Guest:So I checked myself into the high school in Utah where we were shooting as a student that had just moved to town.
Guest:So basically, with the help of the high school principal and the guidance counselor, I was able to create for a day that experience of the character in the movie was going through.
Guest:Now, none of the students knew and none of the teachers knew.
Guest:yeah and that was for instance like very very informative how they treat you yeah well they treat me like shit i mean the thing is is that here's the thing is that i had this idea that if i'm from a big city yeah right and street wise or whatever
Guest:if I go to a small town, I'm going to be a badass.
Guest:Like, I'm not going to, you know, these... Got to make your mark.
Guest:Yeah, like these, you know, farm boys.
Guest:Cowpokes.
Guest:Yeah, they're not going to, you know.
Guest:The second I got there, I was like, oh, shit.
Guest:Shit, I am so out of my element.
Guest:And it was very much like the movie.
Guest:People making fun of me, making fun of what I wore.
Guest:In one day?
Guest:In one day.
Guest:My hair, girls giggling, one guy coming up to me, taking me under his wing.
Guest:Um, showing me the ropes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Uh, teachers not being very nice to me.
Guest:I mean, like, it was like a, it was amazing, like, microcosm of what, of what that movie was.
Guest:And it's also, I guess, amazing how well written the thing was because it nailed it, right?
Guest:It did.
Marc:It did.
Guest:Although I have to say I did change a few things, um, based on, on that experience.
Guest:Not much, but I mean, just little kind of details, but, uh.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, this is funny.
Guest:I, I, I just, this popped into my head.
Guest:I'll give you an example.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is that,
Guest:this is during the time of that look you probably know where you had skinny ties and it was like new wave new wave right new wave it was kind of and i was a really big um police fan and yeah yeah sure you know uh that whole thing and in the script originally it's the mother says to me shouldn't you wear a tie and a jacket if you're going to the first day of school and i say mom i'm not gonna wear a tie
Guest:And what I realized is that a tie, a skinny tie, was going to be way weirder than what she was suggesting.
Guest:So we switched it around.
Guest:So I'm putting a tie on.
Guest:And she's like, are you really going to wear that tie?
Guest:And when I show up at this school, the guys are in jeans and, you know, like high school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And here I am with like a kind of a jacket and a tie.
Marc:And it's like, I'm way more out of, you know, I remember when that happened in high school.
Marc:Cause I'm like, I'm 53.
Marc:So I was, I was in high school when the new wave thing took hold.
Marc:Everybody's wearing buttons, right.
Marc:Thin ties.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The knack, my Sharona.
Marc:Yeah, there you go.
Marc:That's what turned it, I think.
Guest:that's right well that's wild man but wait let's go back because animal house is pretty important well he came they sent the casting director to the school yeah and i didn't have an agent to the circle rep to circle in the square circle in the square yeah and the casting director said to the school do you have any kids that might work as like a preppy um um
Guest:college freshman yeah an asshole an asshole yeah yeah yeah preppy who's your who's your preppy who's your best do you have a preppy asshole here they're like yes we do um step right this way yeah so they sent me over and i had this meeting basically with the casting director there was really very little for me to read i mean i don't know if i had a lot of lines right i meant i did have a couple lines but not a lot
Guest:And then they sent me back to meet with John Landis, who was the director.
Guest:And he said, I want you to make a face like you're smarmy.
Guest:Smarmy.
Guest:I want to see smarmy.
Guest:And I literally had no idea what smarmy meant, but it's kind of an onomatopoeia.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:So I just kind of went, you know, sorry, it's radio.
Guest:I made a face.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was like, yeah, yeah, that's it.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so then I got a call back and then the guy just called me up and said, you got to get on a plane like, you know, in a couple of weeks.
Guest:And that face came in useful.
Guest:I remember that face.
Guest:It was horrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was absolutely awful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But yes, it did come in.
Guest:Like that one note, it kind of informed that whole character.
Guest:It did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It absolutely did.
Guest:It absolutely did.
Guest:And then, you know, speaking of kind of research, what was interesting about the Animal House situation was that, first off, I mean, talk about an amazing kind of like, oh my God, here I am.
Guest:I'm in a movie.
Guest:This is so fucking cool.
Guest:I mean, I flew to Oregon and I'd never been, I'd hardly ever been on a plane, but I'd definitely never been in first class.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:And everything about it was just like crazy, crazy cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But Landis kind of created a situation, I think on purpose, where he didn't, he wanted to bring the animal house, the cool guys, right, out early and have them sort of bond, which they did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They went to a frat party, they got into fist fights, you know, they got drunk, they had like a really bonding thing.
Guest:And wanted to kind of separate the rest of us, the losers, the assholes, from the cool people.
Guest:And what actually happened was that actually happened.
Guest:And they really wouldn't hang out with me.
Guest:And that was difficult for me.
Guest:Like Belushi and Mattson.
Guest:You know, John was in a different kind of category, honestly, because he was flying back and forth for Saturday Night Live.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he had a house and he wasn't staying in the same hotel as the rest of us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, but everybody else, I'll tell you, this is an absolute true story.
Guest:It's funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was seeing this waitress at the hotel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And these guys would have parties all the time in one of the guy's rooms.
Guest:The cool guys?
Guest:Yeah, the cool guys.
Guest:In fact, they took a upright piano and wheeled it across the parking lot.
Guest:I don't know where they got it from, like a conference room or something like that, and stuck it in one of their rooms.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So they would have like...
Guest:there were musicians there they would play I think Bruce McGill played the piano and and it was like always this amazing fucking party going on that I was never invited to yeah and so this waitress uh says to me one night listen um
Guest:you should know that the FBI is watching, uh, the, the cast and the company and the hotel and this entire shoot.
Guest:And they know all about, you know, the drugs and they know all about everything that's going on.
Guest:And there, you should just know that, you know, she had the, I don't know how she knows about the FBI, but I was, you know, at that moment high enough to be like super paranoid.
Guest:right so i thought that a good way in would be uh to tell these guys yeah that was going on right that that that i would be sort of like a hero yeah right because then everybody would like turn the music down or or whatever just be cool you know what i mean
Guest:And so I called up and they're having a party down there and I called up, I think it was Bruce McGill's room.
Guest:And I'm like, uh, Hey, listen, uh, it's, it's Kevin, uh, Kevin, Kevin Bacon.
Guest:I'm the guy that plays that, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And listen, uh, uh, the FBI, I just want you to know, cause I have a pretty good authority that the FBI has been in town and they're like watching everything and watching you guys and watching the hotel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I heard the music going on in the background.
Guest:He's like, fuck you!
Guest:Slams the phone down.
Guest:Nothing ever happened.
Marc:Nothing ever happened.
Marc:You didn't get the confirmation or anything.
Marc:The waitress just had some inside info.
Marc:So that movie was huge.
Marc:And then what happens after that?
Guest:I didn't work for a really... I went back to waiting tables.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah, I went back to waiting tables.
Guest:And I've told this story before, but I had to ask for the night off to go to premiere.
Guest:of animal house i had that night off from the restaurant my boss said yeah sure you'd see you know it's your big premiere right yeah there you go go ahead but make sure you're back tomorrow yeah exactly well exactly right and it was really really uh terrible because um i got down there i took the subway down to the to time square where the theater was and there was a red rope
Guest:But I was on the other side of the red rope and I saw the cast all arriving.
Guest:So they had a tier, I guess, of kind of tickets and, you know, and those guys, of course, I mean, I've just had a small part, you know, but they were like the animal house and like, you know, the guys.
Guest:and uh so like here i am at my big hollywood premiere and i'm like watching it sort of like from a distance and i i get down to the seats and and i don't have the right seat to get past the you know the the line where the good seats are then i get down to the party which was down at the village gate and and uh
Guest:I didn't have the ticket to get into the VIP.
Guest:So they were still icing you, the cool kids.
Guest:Yeah, the cool kids were icing me, exactly.
Guest:And I had this idea that because I was in the movie, I was going to be beating women off with a stick because everyone would recognize me and I was now... The asshole that all the women want to be with, right?
Marc:Exactly, that guy.
Guest:Yeah, they so didn't want to be with me, nor did they... I remember talking to a girl and trying to convince her that I was actually even in the movie.
Guest:And I got so depressed that I went back to the restaurant and just hung out with my friends at the Allstate Cafe.
Marc:What a sad premiere story.
Marc:Isn't that just tragic?
Marc:And then Levinson cast you?
Marc:Like, did you go back to soap operas and shit?
Guest:I did, yeah.
Guest:Then I went on the soaps.
Guest:Yeah, I was on the Search for Tomorrow and the Guiding Light.
Guest:No, not Search for Tomorrow.
Guest:Yeah, Search for Tomorrow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the Guiding Light.
Guest:And I was doing theater.
Marc:But you were working.
Marc:All that stuff adds up, right?
Yeah.
Guest:It all adds up.
Marc:I mean, doing soap operas, whatever that's like.
Marc:No, no, no.
Guest:Great.
Guest:Believe me.
Guest:I started working, yeah, pretty quick.
Guest:I mean, relatively quick.
Guest:I mean, sometimes I would run out of money, so I'd have to go back to waiting tables.
Guest:And I had a boss that was really cool about that.
Guest:And probably, I'd say three times, I said, I'm done.
Guest:Yeah, this is it.
Marc:And then I'd have to go back.
Marc:Because I remember, like, when I saw... Like, Diner was a huge movie for me.
Marc:And I'm assuming... I'm so glad.
Marc:Yeah, I'm assuming it was a huge movie for you.
Guest:It was a huge movie and amazing, amazing memories, you know, of making something.
Guest:I mean, sometimes we'll get together, like, I'll see one of the guys, you know, Riser I still see, or I'll, you know, run into Danny or Timmy or whatever.
Guest:And we have had these, at times, these kind of...
Guest:you know almost kind of like reunions with barry and stuff barry levinson and uh all the like there's more stories for us packed into that seven week shoot or whatever it was then then you know a hundred other movies really it was just a it was just an like a really fun fun intense and uh interesting kind of time for all of us i think
Marc:In the sense that you were all young actors and this was like, was it a loose environment in that you all really got to know each other and you all sort of hungry and excited?
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:And none of us were, some of us had been working, but none of us were stars.
Guest:except i would say maybe for mickey who was just kind of like exploding based on the thing that he had done in body heat oh the the bomb guy yeah yeah but we were uh in this hotel in baltimore um just guys single guys hanging out and and what was interesting was that
Guest:when if you if you look at the movie it's almost kind of random like who happens to be together at any given time sometimes there's three guys together sometimes there's two sometimes you know i mean you don't it's kind of not all that well planned out in terms of that yeah but the guys that were together would be hanging out on the set right together having a fun time yeah and the guys that weren't at work that day
Guest:would go and hang out and do something else.
Guest:So there was this kind of like thing where all of our different relationships were all sort of, yeah, and they all sort of bounced off each other in interesting ways.
Guest:And it was also a deal where Barry Levinson did kind of the same thing about bringing us down there early for what he called rehearsal, but it was really just a bonding kind of session.
Marc:Yeah, it seemed like there was a lot of authentic sort of,
Marc:you know interaction like he was able to honor each of your personalities there was it within the character like it really like that was the first time I was like when I saw Paul Reiser I thought he was hilarious and I had not really seen him do comedy and I knew him like from that movie and when I was in college I don't remember when that movie come out uh so I just my first year of college
Marc:And I saw that and I thought he was hilarious and all you guys were great.
Marc:But then I went to the comic strip and he was there just sitting there.
Marc:When I asked him, I said, I want to do comedy.
Marc:How do I do it?
Guest:No kidding.
Marc:Yeah, because of Diner.
Marc:And he was like, I don't know, you just do it.
Marc:And I'm like, great.
Marc:That's what I tell people.
Marc:It's like, you're going to spend your life afraid?
Marc:Just get it out of your system.
Guest:See if you like it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, Reiser was amazing because he didn't really on paper have much of a part.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like when we auditioned for Diner, you would go in and pick one of the parts to read.
Guest:I wanted to either play Boogie because he was cool, the part that Mickey played.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or the part that Tim Daly played because he was romantic.
Guest:So I was like, either I want to be cool or I want to get the girl.
Guest:I read both of those.
Guest:Barry went,
Guest:why don't you read Fenwick I was like Fenwick I don't know Fenwick is there anything there I didn't say that but I was disappointed frankly that I had gotten Fenwick because I thought the other parts were better and flashier and more interesting and he was such a reactive kind of character but when Riser got down there
Guest:He almost had no part.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And all of a sudden, we would get into these, like, rehearsal situations.
Guest:And he just fucking starts improvising.
Guest:And Barry's like, that's so funny.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:I'm not comfortable with the word nuance.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:You know, are you going to eat that or whatever?
Guest:Because he's brilliant with that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And now I see this guy's part start to get bigger and bigger and bigger.
Guest:I'm like, this fucking guy?
Guest:Jesus.
Guest:Riser's eating the movie.
Guest:He's eating the movie.
Guest:Well, you know, I made a choice when I realized that I didn't consider myself as a good improviser.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I was intimidated by Paul's skill.
Guest:But even by...
Guest:By all of them, you know what I mean?
Guest:They were all really good at that.
Guest:Danny and Timmy and Mickey and Steve.
Guest:Steve, you know, would just kind of say crazy shit and it was just fucking funny and Barry would love it.
Guest:So I was very intimidated by that and I literally made a choice.
Guest:that i needed to not be the guy that comes up with the funny thing to say that i'm the guy that sits there and reacts yeah to what everybody else is saying important part yeah because in any kind of dynamic you know if you have a bunch of friends that you know uh hang out yeah there's always one guy that's like the wise ass and you know there's other guys that just sit there and laugh sure you know what you know what i mean so
Guest:So that was kind of like what I chose, and I think that ultimately it worked out better.
Marc:Well, yeah, and your character is really, out of all of them, the most troubled character.
Marc:He is.
Marc:He's a mess.
Marc:What did you make decisions about your career at that point?
Marc:Because you never stopped working, but what were some of the challenges of being Kevin Bacon?
Marc:At that point as an actor.
Guest:There were a lot of challenges, both professionally and personally, because I was had a real difficult time with the, you know, the kind of pop star aspect of it.
Guest:Of Footloose?
Guest:Yeah, of that super, super kind of like, you know, pop star.
Guest:Kids loved it.
Guest:Yeah, and it's exactly what I didn't want to be.
Guest:I so desperately from the time I first set foot, even before I got to New York, wanted to be a serious actor, whatever the hell that means.
Guest:That's like what I wanted to do.
Guest:I wanted to do theater.
Guest:You know, I wanted to be...
Guest:De Niro.
Guest:De Niro.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Meryl Streep.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Dustin.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:John Voight.
Guest:You know, like, like, like, you know.
Guest:Respected.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Work, you know, work with Cassavetes.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like this, this is this, this was the stuff or theater or.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Kevin Kline, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And now I was a pop star.
Guest:and it's like one one it's like the next level uh it's just above child actor exactly right exactly and everything that i had done up to that point was sort of nobody knew it you know what i mean you you you doing an off off broadway play is you feel that it's just as important right nobody fucking knows right you know so it doesn't really we made a difference tonight yeah for those 12 people for those 12 people exactly
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And so I had a hard time.
Guest:I was very resistant of it.
Guest:And again, if I had been open to people giving me advice, people would have said, look,
Guest:embrace it take it as far as you can take it and then just do good work you know what i mean right right just just and and don't and make take your time with the choices that you're going to make but but you use the the the sort of star turn capital yeah yeah yeah but what did you choose to do i just made bad movies you know i just made bad choices you know and and sometimes stubbornness
Guest:God, I don't know.
Guest:I feel like it was self-sabotage.
Guest:I think it was a... I think I... And again, look, you know, I don't have much of a rearview mirror when I think about these things because I like to look down the road and stay moving forward.
Guest:And I also feel like, again...
Guest:The process by which you get wherever you get is the right process for you.
Guest:It has to be.
Guest:It has to be.
Guest:You can't go back and change time.
Guest:And so I learned a lot from that, from making bad choices.
Guest:And then I was able to kind of turn things back around.
Guest:So it was the right thing for me to go through.
Guest:Oh, The Big Picture, that was a sweet movie.
Guest:That was a good choice.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, nobody saw it.
Guest:So I like the movie.
Guest:I think it's great.
Guest:I love Chris Guest.
Guest:I had a blast making it.
Guest:You know, Chris Guest, I mean, has an unbelievable ability to take something that is...
Guest:really really true and really really familiar yeah and make it hilarious and you know when you see some of the characters like the studio executives yeah yeah and right and marty short is my agent yeah yeah you know and you go can these people like did these people actually exist in hollywood and then you meet them
Guest:and then they're like it's like exactly the same i mean there's things in that movie that we my wife and i still use to this day i mean marty short has a great line where he says they're having he's having the first meeting with me he goes nick i don't know you i don't know your work but i think you're very talented and it's like to me that's like you get that shit all the time yeah killing you with kindness yeah
Marc:Well, it's funny because that was a big sort of shift like in, I imagine, in Guest's kind of vision because he went the whole in completely improvisational direction.
Marc:I mean, that was a pretty tight movie.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That was written.
Marc:Right.
Marc:He went straight to mockumentaries after Spinal Tap.
Marc:Although Spinal Tap, I think he did right before the big picture.
Marc:But he was acting in that really, right?
Marc:But then like his whole oeuvre is now these weird kind of like improvised masterpieces.
Marc:Eugene Levy.
Marc:So brilliant.
Marc:So then you do like JFK and a few good men power pack.
Marc:That was a good punch.
Marc:Good one, two punch.
Marc:Well, you had a couple of movies in between there.
Marc:I'm sorry I'm doing this, but like you've done so much.
Marc:That's all right.
Marc:But like, I thought a few good men, like what was, uh, that was a fucking astounding performance.
Marc:Well, you know what?
Marc:I thank you for that.
Marc:Um, should have won an Oscar, buddy.
Guest:Oh, thank you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you got a chip on your shoulder about that about the oscars yeah i think that to say to say that um that's a tough question i'll tell you to to answer because on one hand if you say i really don't care right it's it's obviously bullshit right and it's and it's gonna feel like false humility clearly you're lying yeah and
Guest:And if you say you care a lot, then you just look like a bitter fucking asshole.
Guest:And the thing I always remind myself is that...
Guest:Well, first off, of course I would like to even be nominated for anything, which doesn't really happen.
Guest:He's won something.
Guest:A couple of things here and there.
Guest:But of course, and part of the reason is that it opens up more opportunities, right?
Guest:Because, for instance, there's a certain kind of movie that's made for a certain kind of budget that's going to come out in the fall.
Guest:And when those people are putting those movies together, what they want to put on the poster is Oscar nominee, Oscar nominee from this Oscar.
Guest:Ticket sellers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a selling of the tickets, but it's also positioning it in a way that's going to become an Oscar movie.
Guest:And especially in this day and age, in order for something to break out as serious at all, it has to get awards consideration.
Guest:um i think the best way to look at it is sort of like it's something i'd like to experience once in my life i'd like to get one of those there you go there you go yeah yeah or you know but the the truth is is that um when somebody comes up to you and says i loved you know when you say that was important to me diner for instance you know that's like i i
Guest:I can really, like, I can put that on an imaginary shelf.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Marc:The impact you have on people.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, yeah, it was a life-changing movie for me, really.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, good.
Marc:But so that means something.
Marc:That means more, ultimately, the impact you have on people that you don't even know.
Marc:Like, even this podcast, you know, you get these emails from people like, thank God.
Marc:And I'm like, well, that's what you do it for.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:I've heard you read some of them.
Guest:It's very touching, actually.
Marc:It is?
Marc:No, really.
Marc:I get them all the time, man.
Marc:I cry here.
Marc:I sit here and cry reading my emails.
Marc:No, it's really, it's very touching.
Marc:Yeah, but that movie was sort of,
Marc:That part was so controlled.
Marc:And so, like, there's a moment in that movie where, like, when you make choices like that, because whatever decisions you made about your acting career, you've had a very varied career, and these characters are very different.
Marc:And even the ones that seem similar are incredibly different.
Marc:Like, the humility of that guy, of that Marine, was he a Marine?
Marc:Marine, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:where, you know, he knew that moment where that moment happens, where, you know, Nicholson does that and you're in that position, that moment where you got to be like, you know exactly what happens next.
Marc:This guy doesn't go home.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And he doesn't seem to know that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then, you know, that moment with Cruz.
Marc:I mean, that was a, somehow or another, there was a lot of humanity in that thing.
Marc:That was a great run at that point.
Guest:And I'll tell you why.
Guest:Because...
Guest:The first part of that was JFK.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then Murder in the First and Few Good Men and The River Wild.
Guest:And what was good about that was that I was a character actor and I realized that that's really what I was.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Because after Footloose, I was sort of trying to get into this whatever it's called, leading man kind of box.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And even back that in the 80s, there was more of an instinct in our industry to make somebody into a leading man or make them into a character.
Marc:But then there's only like nine of those guys.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And I wasn't one of them ultimately.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You had that moment of realization?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, we talk about leaving yourself open to advice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had an agent who said to me, this is what we need to do, and you need to get back to this, and you need to stop focusing on the size of the part and all that other shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she sent me to meet Oliver Stone, and I did JFK.
Guest:And that literally spun things, both...
Guest:like in terms of perception but also in my mind the thing is is that and you were able to use that research from 53rd street exactly i was well i did some even crazier research for that that's a whole other thing oh my gosh well you know the gap the guy that i was playing was based on a real guy and he was a fascist sort of gay well i guess he was gay yeah um but really into um like leather and i don't even want to
Guest:you know certain kind of like really hardcore kind of sexual yeah stuff and i'm just don't want me to spend hang out with the guy so i did i spent like the night oh he's still alive he was alive when we made the movie off he's still alive spent the night running around to all these um leather bars in in uh in new orleans and uh
Guest:I was like, fuck.
Guest:And it was actually the night, it was night of the cast dinner, which was like, I was like, Jesus, thanks, Oliver.
Guest:You know, he sends me a, but, uh, Gary Oldman was in the movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, uh, he was Oswald, right?
Guest:Uh, and Gary, yeah.
Guest:And Gary, and, and, uh, I called, I called Gary.
Guest:I'm like, dude, can you, can you do this?
Guest:Can you do this run with me?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's like, okay.
Guest:And so it was so sweet of him.
Guest:So me and Gary ran around with this lunatic throughout.
Guest:Anyway, that was an amazing evening.
Guest:Yeah, saw a lot of stuff, learned some things.
Guest:Learned some things, yeah.
Guest:But you know what?
Guest:When I wanted to be an actor,
Guest:It was always about wanting to put on a different hat every time.
Guest:Wanting to be a different guy.
Guest:To me, that's what being an actor was.
Guest:When I look at Meryl Streep, she's the best at that.
Guest:Because when you line them all up, some of us have tried that, but then the most successful ones are kind of right in the same pocket.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Right.
Guest:When I look at her, I go, okay, I totally believe there is this one.
Guest:I totally believe there is this one.
Guest:And they don't, like in terms of like the social upbringing or, you know, whatever, those two people couldn't be anything.
Marc:Yeah, it's kind of fascinating that you don't see the technique.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And you're sort of like, what the fuck?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So that's the type of thing.
Marc:I think you do that, definitely.
Marc:And I think you're afforded that as a character actor.
Guest:What I do appreciate if I...
Guest:If I was to get, like I said, I have a lot of gratitude about being able to make a living at all as an actor or as any kind of an artist.
Guest:You know as well as I do that that's a real struggle.
Guest:The thing that I really appreciate is that when I get offered things, they're pretty varied.
Guest:In terms of the kind of characters that come my way, they're varied not only in terms of the men...
Guest:but also the genre.
Guest:Things come that are funny, and things come that are dark, and things come that are intense and weird.
Marc:Man, there's some moments of the weird humanity, because I'm flashing back on some moments of your roles.
Marc:I don't remember the JFK role clearly, but I certainly remember that moment in A Few Good Men, and I remember the moment in Sleepers.
Marc:No, but the weird moment that I remember is when he finds you after.
Marc:When you're just this fucking drunk fucking nothing.
Marc:Thank you for that.
Marc:I really appreciate that.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:And you just see in your eye that you're just completely morally bankrupt and done.
Marc:And that was the fucking moment.
Marc:Not the moment where you're fucking doing horrible things to kids.
Marc:But where the humanity of that moment is like...
Marc:what's going to happen now to that guy?
Marc:Because you have a moment of not empathy, but like that guy looks like he did himself in.
Guest:Yeah, he's a little man.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, he's a little man.
Guest:And he gets seven in the chest.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you're okay with that, though.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:If I play a character like that and you go to the movies and people...
Marc:cheer after he gets blown away you know you've done a good job you know that movie i thought was so good and i remember at the time there were some issues with i don't know what people's issues were with it but you know because the book was so fucking brutal but i thought the movie was good that was barry levinson it was and and it's so you work with him again but like and again again about you know four friends in a much more horrible circumstance yeah yeah yeah yeah
Marc:You know, it's really weird.
Marc:It's like some movies really don't do as well as they should because they have horrible endings or tragic.
Guest:Maybe that's.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, look, I mean, I always say that the last, you know, five minutes, first off, can take kind of a mediocre movie and make people have a really good feeling about it.
Marc:I remember that movie, but it was heavy, dude.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Apollo 13, you're real good with groups of guys in some weird way, right?
Marc:Paxton was in here like a week before he passed.
Marc:It was so good that he was here and so sad what happened, but God damn it.
Marc:I'm glad I had that time with him.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:He's a great dude.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Really fun.
Marc:So much enthusiasm.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And always delivers, man.
Marc:You know, he gets on the screen and it's sort of like, you know.
Marc:Hell yeah.
Marc:But that must have been a great... I love that fucking movie.
Guest:We had an amazing time.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And some of my fondest memories of any kind of shooting were... Well, I'm sure... I don't know if you ever... Did he talk to you about the KC-135, the Vomit Comet?
Guest:No.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Well, those are two things.
Guest:First off, when we were in the initial launch in the capsule, some of that we did on a soundstage.
Guest:And we would get strapped in because we were in our giant spacesuits and we couldn't really move too much for a really long time.
Guest:But we had communication between Tom and Bill and Ron and I and we could sort of like hear each other and we would hear each other just for like two, three hours just in between shots while they're setting up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:i don't think i have ever laughed as long or as hard and i wish i could i wish somebody fucking recorded it because just you guys in space bill is hilarious and and tom was hilarious and ron's like kind of like little reactions to us i mean we had such a blast but
Guest:there's a there's a um back then in order to uh create weightlessness yeah you would need harnesses and straps and then you would try to paint those things out and it was pretty um rudimentary and these days no problem you know i just saw life you know they're floating through the whole movie and it's you know it's all kind of digital stuff
Guest:There's a plane called the KC-135, also known as a vomit comet that NASA has, that they use to train astronauts and to create weightlessness on Earth, which is impossible.
Guest:People think there's such a thing as an anti-gravity chamber.
Guest:There's no such thing.
Guest:What the plane does is it goes out of the Gulf of Mexico.
Guest:And it climbs straight up.
Guest:It's like a big, big ass plane, like a 707.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Climbs straight up and then dives and straight up and dives.
Guest:And they're called parabolas.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when you go over the top, the combination of centrifugal force throwing you back up, you know, like a roller coaster and the gravitational pull balance out for 25 seconds.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:yeah and so we had to go up there to experience that yeah and you know i'm like this is terrifying and nauseating they call it the vomit yeah yeah um and we go and we do it and we you know do you do like uh i think you do 20 out and 20 back and then you know it came down we landed it was so fun well we experienced weightlessness that's so cool and you know high-fiving the whole thing and we're kissing the ground
Guest:Ron has a conversation with Steven Spielberg who says to him, why don't you shoot the movie up there?
Guest:And then you'll have actual weightlessness.
Guest:Just build the set and shoot it up there.
Guest:And he comes back to us and he's like, guys, guys, I got a great, great, great, exciting.
Guest:I'm like, oh, fuck, you're kidding me.
Guest:And we go out down to Houston
Guest:And shot quite a lot of stuff in an airplane hurtling up and down and up and down.
Guest:600 times we did it.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:So you got used to it.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:25 seconds at a time?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So 25 seconds at a time.
Guest:But, you know, that's a fairly long time to get a shot.
Guest:Then you get another one and you're, you know, the camera's floating.
Guest:So it can all be kind of like handheld.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:but it's like you know literally like um you know bite the water out of the air thing yeah and uh we would if we weren't in the scene we'd play in the back of the airplane play football and like i mean you could fly like peter pan i mean up and down so as i was speaking of paxton you know as a bonding sort of experience that was amazing and and bill and tom were way more gung-ho than me i'm like i
Guest:kind of family because it's you know it's terrifying and and uh and we also had to take some very very serious drugs to combat the nausea um so we were all a little bit like kind of you know druggy in a weird sort of way but anyway it was it was great we had such a blast and and he was so gung-ho man this is the greatest i can't believe it all
Guest:I mean, I just, you could not be in a bad mood around that guy on the set, you know, because he was so enthusiastic about the process of making movies.
Marc:Yeah, he loved it.
Marc:He loved it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I just watched Mystic River.
Marc:It's one of those movies, if it's on, I'm going to watch it from wherever it's on.
Marc:And I like doing that.
Marc:I'd rather than, you know, choose a movie to watch, flip around and go like, oh shit, the good part's coming.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:But those scenes with you, again, this vulnerability that you're able to offer up on those bits on the phone.
Marc:But that moment, look at me, I'm like that idiot.
Marc:That moment where you say to Sean Penn, what'd you do?
Marc:That was like, oh my God.
Marc:And the fact is, I'll ask you this because I just noticed it the last time.
Marc:is that you know him, you know Sean Penn's character, you guys come up in the same area, and you knew what he did, and he knew what he did, and then there was the morality of the script is that, well, he did kill somebody, but in that movie, I don't know how the book is written or how you thought of it, are you going to get Sean Penn?
Guest:Because I take my finger and I make it into a gun, and I point it out.
Guest:Yeah, we're at the parade.
Guest:I'll tell you an interesting thing about that.
Guest:I went to Clint, and I'm sure you've heard this before, but Clint is not somebody who wants to talk too much about motivation and those types of things.
Guest:No, he really does.
Guest:He wants you to go home, go into your room, do whatever you need to do, and come to work with your...
Marc:I heard that about like, that's an interesting thing that I'm learning from.
Marc:I just talked to Walter Hill and he said that this whole idea of directors directing actors is a kind of a myth.
Marc:And he said, it's sort of like they do a job.
Marc:You hire them to do the job.
Marc:You chose them for the job they do.
Guest:So do your job.
Guest:exactly yeah and horrible name dropping here but meryl streep said to me when we were doing uh the river wild she said you have to work with clint you're gonna love it because you like to work in that way where you figured it out and meryl's like that i mean she you know i mean she would take direction certainly but like when she comes to work it's not like she's discovering right character yeah yeah i mean yeah made choices
Guest:Clint's very much like that.
Guest:And sometimes he'll only do one take.
Guest:Sometimes he'll shoot the rehearsal.
Guest:Everything is very, very, you know, so all of a sudden all of us went, oh, fuck, we got to get our shit together.
Guest:Like we're not, you know, it's not going to be 18 takes, you know, whatever.
Guest:So we actually started to kind of like rehearse on our own.
Guest:You and Sean?
Guest:Me and Sean and Tim and Fish, you know, we would get together and read through the script and stuff and Clint was never there, you know.
Guest:and so when so so rarely did i ask him right i knew that wasn't his thing yeah but at that moment i said so clint um what what is that that i'm doing there it was in the script too it was in the script yeah to to take to take that it might have even been in the book i can't remember um uh and he said well
Guest:That's for the audience to decide.
Guest:And so I said, okay, I'm going to make a choice, but I'm going to take that to my grave because if he wanted it to be for the audience to decide, then I'm going to honor that.
Guest:I know what it was.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You're going to get him.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:No!
Guest:actor secrets are sort of for me they like I've had this happen once before I'm like what do you get to lose by telling us now it's the only it's the only moment that I've ever done that I that I will hold on to but look I think that I think that's a very astute observation
Marc:Well, it's so weird that I bring it up to you and I have this opportunity to talk to you, because after seeing that movie six or seven times, really, in bits and pieces and a few times all the way through, that struck me.
Marc:And that was just a week or so ago.
Marc:It was on cable.
Marc:And I was like, oh, you know what I mean?
Marc:I didn't know what is the real bond, ultimately, that these guys really have.
Guest:Yeah, well, you know, that's the thing is that could be interpreted as, you know, listen, you know me, I know you, we're cool.
Guest:No, no, I didn't see that.
Marc:And like when you work with Merle or Sean or like, you know...
Marc:Do you find yourself ever gleaning things?
Marc:Or are you set in your ways?
Marc:Or at least when you work with an actor, do you do a scene and go like, fucking Sean nailed that?
Guest:Oh, sure.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, definitely.
Guest:I mean, I think that you try as much as possible not to step outside and start watching what you're doing because you really have to be listening.
Guest:You got to fight that sometimes, don't you?
Guest:Yeah, you do.
Guest:You do sometimes have to fight it, but you really feel like you have to.
Guest:You know, especially even as I get, you know, older, I mean, it's like I really want to experience staying just kind of in it, you know, like like the difference between the time when you're waiting to go on to the time when they say action is.
Guest:In a way, I'm trying to learn how to make that sort of flow into one thing and to really feel like I'm walking in this person's shoes.
Guest:Not pretending to be the guy.
Guest:I don't make people call me by the character name or stuff like that.
Guest:But I want to feel like I'm walking in another man's shoes at this time.
Guest:So to actually stop and step out either and look at my own work or look at the work of the person that I'm working with is kind of counterproductive.
Guest:That being said, I don't look at, you know, Jack Nicholson saying you can't handle the truth.
Guest:You know, I'm going, fuck, this guy's nailing this.
Guest:Oh, my God, is this good?
Guest:You know, look, I mean, I can't, you know, of course I'm going to see that.
Marc:Even when he doesn't have to do the other side because they're doing a single, he'll do it.
Marc:I don't know if you had that experience with him.
Guest:He did it again and again.
Guest:It was one of the most... I have so much respect for him.
Guest:What was funny about it was that if you think about that particular scene in A Few Good Men, I mean, shooting a courtroom is...
Guest:there's a lot of coverage that you have to get because you got to get first you got to get jack and then obviously you know they shot his side of things out right first you know maybe three four sizes on on him amazing you know he's going to be off camera for the rest of the day now you're turning back around on tom and to me and and me and kevin pollock and you know it's like you got there's a lot of pieces that you got to get and
Guest:he just kept doing it and doing it and doing it and doing it.
Guest:And for every single one of us, it was just as cool.
Guest:But what changed was that, you know, those Marine uniforms are just really uncomfortable.
Guest:You know, they make them so that you're not comfortable in them.
Guest:You know, they're made to, you know, feel like shit.
Guest:I mean, he starts taking his jacket off, then his, you know, he's got his dye off, and then his hair starts getting all, you know what I mean?
Guest:So...
Guest:By the end of the day.
Guest:By the end of the day, he's still doing it, but he's more Nicholson than he is.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:He's comfortable.
Guest:Yeah, it was great.
Marc:Okay, so let's talk about I Love Dick, because I know Jill and Catherine I love, and I think I'm going to get to talk to Griffin.
Marc:I've met him once or twice.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:But, yeah, he is great.
Marc:He's doing a good job in that.
Marc:It's amazing.
Marc:Yeah, I've got to watch the rest of them.
Marc:Yeah, please do.
Marc:No, I will.
Guest:Because it gets very...
Guest:Oh, boy.
Guest:It really goes all kinds of pretty interesting places.
Marc:But like I said, being with an artist who's in that level of art, who sells paintings, she does well for herself, and getting to know that community a little bit, but still feeling outside of it.
Marc:It's a very insulated, odd world.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Which is really great for a show, because it almost...
Marc:It doesn't seem fictional at all, but it's definitely outside of almost everyone's experience.
Marc:So what was the pitch for you?
Marc:How did you get involved with it?
Guest:Because you're Dick.
Guest:I'm Dick.
Guest:I am.
Guest:I got a call that Jill Soloway had a new show, and it was called I Love Dick, and that I was Dick.
Guest:I mentioned it to my wife, and she said, so you're doing that one.
Guest:I was like, honey, I haven't read the script yet.
Guest:She's like, no, no, no, no.
Guest:You're doing it.
Guest:It's Soloway.
Guest:And Catherine was attached already.
Guest:She's great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's amazing.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:She's amazing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I spoke to a couple other women in my life.
Guest:Maybe my daughter, one of my sisters, whatever.
Guest:They're all saying the same thing.
Guest:You're doing that one, dude.
Guest:And then I read the script.
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Jill and I got on the Skype.
Guest:And she was in L.A.
Guest:I was on the East Coast.
Guest:and um we spoke about it and you know it was important to her um i think at this point or maybe always i don't know i didn't haven't known her before this but but um the notion of having a good person somebody that
Guest:um was going to be um a positive kind of influence and a positive vibe on the set was like really super important to her yeah you know she's kind of like i hear you're nice but i don't you know you know that kind of thing yeah um uh and what was important to me was to know whether or not
Guest:this character was just going to be objectified, which is cool, but whether you were ever going to get to know him and get a little bit deeper into who he is.
Guest:And she promised me that you would.
Guest:And then we sort of began the process.
Guest:And I feel like, especially in the last few episodes, they kind of delivered on that promise.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, the book was sort of controversial in that community, from what I understand.
Marc:I don't think I'm speaking out of school, really.
Marc:But, I mean, it's based on a real book by this Chris Krause person who went on this thing, this, what do you call them?
Marc:The...
Marc:What is that situation there?
Marc:A residence, artist residence in Marfa, which is now like sort of the capital of art.
Marc:Have you been there?
Marc:No, I haven't been there yet.
Marc:That's cool.
Marc:You should go.
Marc:I'll go.
Marc:We're going to go.
Marc:I'll check it out.
Marc:But it's really a kind of the sort of the idea that this woman who...
Marc:in the show is not an artist per se and becomes immediately obsessed with you and then, you know, starts to present for this art project as this, you know, these documents, these letters of obsession and things that, and you don't, you know, from the point on that is that you're,
Marc:There's a moment there where you're like, this person's crazy.
Marc:Your character is just holding strong to this onslaught of obsessive insecurity and need.
Marc:It's like, did you talk to the real dick?
Guest:No, no, I don't think he would want to talk to me.
Guest:He was not happy about the book.
Guest:The book is written sort of as a semi, I mean, it really is a memoir, but it's kind of presented almost like a novel, I think.
Guest:But no, I didn't.
Guest:And in the book, you learn very little about him.
Guest:It's more about her.
Guest:It's really more about her and about Silvera, about her husband.
Guest:And what I really wanted to do was make sure that I could create a character that had some more kind of depth and interest.
Guest:And one of the people that I latched on to...
Guest:See, the book actually takes place in Northern California.
Guest:Marfa had nothing to do with it, Marfa, Texas.
Guest:But Marfa, Texas was, there was a character there named Donald Judd, who was a famous sculptor living in New York.
Guest:who had driven through Marfa, Texas when he was a young man in the army and remembered it.
Guest:And he left New York and went to Marfa, Texas and started buying up buildings and ranches.
Guest:He was the guy.
Guest:And he was the guy.
Guest:And he's very, very, I would say, probably a lot more similar to Dick than to the Dick in the book.
Guest:And one of the things that I really wanted to explore with this was...
Guest:the nature of celebrity because dick um is a very big fish in a very small pond yeah and he has donald judd for instance was a successful sculptor in new york but maybe wasn't the most famous sculptor in new
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:And went to this tiny, tiny little town in the middle of nowhere.
Guest:I mean, it's West Texas.
Guest:It takes three hours to get there from El Paso.
Guest:That's the closest airport.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, it's very hard to get to.
Guest:And he created a world where he was a king.
Guest:He was, everybody knew him, everybody knows every move and everything he does.
Guest:And that to me is a lot like what being an actor is kind of like.
Guest:You try to create a world where you are the subject of attention and of focus.
Guest:And then once you've created that, you sometimes have a difficult relationship with that notion.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's what is going on for this guy.
Marc:From the beginning, that's where you were going.
Marc:That's the work you did.
Marc:Those are the choices you're making based on that dynamic within yourself.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And women throw themselves a dick, and this woman is no...
Guest:exception you know and i think that when you when we were kind of talking about this before but um you know when when you when people hang on every word admire you tell you that they love you and they love your work and and all those kinds of things on one hand it's like amazingly great and it makes you feel so good all the time right but on the other hand you're always kind of struggling going maybe i
Guest:is any of this deserved?
Guest:Yeah, you don't know me.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Or have I done anything that really is any good?
Guest:I don't know if you've probably, maybe not gotten there, but they talk about in the show that I haven't made any art in seven years.
Marc:And that... Oh, yeah.
Marc:There was that one yelling.
Marc:I think when she yells at you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When she shows up to audit the class.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:She's done all her homework.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You haven't made anything.
Guest:And so I think that's where he's at in his life is that he's kind of... He's struggling with this undeserved celebrity.
Guest:And then you do make something.
Marc:You retitle the brick piece.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I love that beat.
Marc:That's funny, man.
Marc:That was a funny beat.
Marc:I make it with a pen.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, now I'm excited to watch the rest of it.
Marc:And I think it's a great world.
Marc:I didn't know how I was going to feel about it.
Marc:But the weird menace of you're at this point where I am in the series, you're still pretty detached.
Marc:But whatever's going on with Griffin and Catherine and that unraveling and then these other surrounding artists, that one scene where they try to rehearse that play.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:It was like, it's really hard not to make that stuff look, I don't know if trite's the right word or hackneyed, but, you know, having been with an artist for a while now, it's like they live in a very specific space, artists.
Marc:And it's all very earnest and it's all very, you know, they are taking risks, but it just seems very insulated.
Marc:And I think that, you know, that to do that for a broader audience, there's some, you know, there's some traps to that, but it seems you...
Guest:that you've avoided it well I think that I think that you make a really good point um but I also think that uh even within trying to make it not look hackneyed I think um Jill is still is also willing to say maybe sometimes it is do you know what I mean oh no absolutely yeah maybe it's okay if this looks ridiculous yeah yeah right and I think that's that's a really fine line to walk plus the other thing is that
Guest:brilliantly they have chosen to uh intercut these kind of art films oh yeah they're great made by women these strange yeah yeah like one of them had a profound impact on my girlfriend like when she saw it she's like oh my god that i saw that at the show oh she had already seen it the milk one oh the milk oh that's crazy right yeah it's great it's great yeah great um i saw the whole one it goes on and on and on yeah but anyway yeah um
Guest:You know, one of the things that's kind of cool is that I have a long history besides like the mainstream movies that I've, you know, tried to make.
Guest:I've always gone back to sort of like indie art house type type things.
Guest:because I feel like whatever you know you don't get paid and you're making movie art and you know it's harder and harder to get that kind of stuff done in films these days because there's there's very little spot for
Guest:for it right you know what i mean and so you're really struggling you're struggling at uh film festivals and you're struggling to make this kind of art but i love dick is like a is like an art house movie you know an art house you know i mean it's very experimental in the way that it's shot in the way that it's cut the kind of music that it's even in the way that we we approached it from an acting standpoint
Guest:So that was really kind of fun for me.
Guest:I was like, this is fucking cool, man.
Guest:This is like being back, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Doing some little crazy movie in the streets of New York.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There's a great director named Andrea Arnold who directed two really stunning movies if you haven't seen them.
Guest:One is called Fish Tank and one is called American Honey.
Guest:She's a British director that Jill really admired.
Guest:And those are, they're super like art house, you know, kind of movies.
Guest:Brilliant, both of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She directed four of our episodes, which we were thrilled to kind of have her.
Guest:And I'll give you an example.
Guest:One of the things that she does, which is fascinating to me, is that you'll do a take, do take, you know, a couple of takes, and then we'll do a silent take.
Guest:where we just take all the words out and we just sort of play the scene with physicality or a look or just a feeling.
Guest:I've never done that in my life as an actor.
Guest:And I've done a lot of shit.
Guest:And I was like, this is like mind-blowing.
Guest:Really, really cool.
Guest:And how is she going to use that?
Guest:And you cut little pieces.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:And if you look at the show, you'll see that there's just moments that are just kind of like,
Guest:look at that look at her eye just for a second there or or just a hand on a on a leg or something right right you know uh they are sometimes from these silent oh that's that's a trip so that that's exciting doing something new totally and you're and well that must be great at you know where you're at in your career to actually be like all right i've never done this before yeah definitely and and i was a little bit resistant to it frankly because you know i'm old and jaded and bitter you know whatever yeah
Guest:And my wife just kept saying to me, just leave your heart open, you know, just leave yourself open to, you don't, you know, even at this level of experience, you don't know everything there is to know about acting and making movies and, you know, the process.
Guest:So just leave yourself open, you know, to a certain extent.
Guest:Sounds like you got a good partner there.
Marc:oh yeah yeah she's good yeah yeah yeah she's yeah yeah she's no she's she's smart and you respect each other uh craft we do yeah well it's great talking to you kevin i appreciate you taking the time you too man it's really fun i really enjoyed it
Marc:that was great i love talking to kevin bacon solid dude good guy i am in a hotel room i do not have my guitar i am just going to sign off boomer lives
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