Episode 799 - Jason Zinoman / Hank Azaria
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuckineers?
Marc:What the fuckadelics?
Marc:What the fucktuckians?
Marc:What the fucksikins?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my show.
Marc:Today on the show, I talked to the New York Times comedy critic.
Marc:That's Jason Zinneman.
Marc:I'll be honest with you, I didn't want to like the guy when we started, and I found it to be a great conversation.
Marc:He's got a book coming out.
Marc:He had sort of amazing access to David Letterman, and he wrote Letterman, the Giant of Late Night.
Marc:That comes out a little later this month.
Marc:Is it April yet?
Marc:Yeah, it is, right?
Marc:April 11th.
Marc:You can pre-order it now.
Marc:So that's me and Jason Zinneman.
Marc:Then Hank Azaria.
Marc:his area wanted to stop by because he's got a new show on IFC a network that I'm familiar with called Brock Meyer so he said he wanted to come by and talk about that and check in and say hello that's always an exciting situation when Hank Azaria wants to come by and hang out for a minute he's kind of a live wire that dude so Austin Texas gracias what a fucking great couple of days I had there
Marc:This is really the first time I went out to Austin outside of the Moon Tower Festival in a long time.
Marc:So it was just me at the Paramount.
Marc:And I think we came pretty close to selling that thing out.
Marc:And what a spectacular fucking theater that is.
Marc:And what great audiences, man.
Marc:And Austin is... I'll walk you through, Austin.
Marc:First, I'd like to read this handwritten letter, if I could.
Marc:A woman and her husband were back in the back alley with some other fans after the show.
Marc:I went out the back door.
Marc:She gave me some brownies that she made.
Marc:I said, are these on the level?
Marc:She goes, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm sober, too.
Marc:Totally on the level.
Marc:She gave me some on the level brownies and this letter that I read later in my room.
Marc:Hey, Mark, I'm writing this in the car in Austin traffic while my husband drives us to your show.
Marc:Much like you, my process does not include much prep.
Marc:It's well within the possibilities of my life that upon meeting you, I will get very nervous and not be able to tell you how much I enjoy and appreciate your podcast and stand up.
Marc:It is the closest I can get to listening to my dad talk again.
Marc:He died suddenly of a heart attack last year.
Marc:And what I really missed most was listening to his manic, excited appreciation and critique of music and movies.
Marc:Him and I saw countless live shows and movies together, and I credit him for my deep love of various media.
Marc:You and him are about the same age and shared many of the same experiences, so hearing your viewpoint and your stories has given me a feeling I thought I wouldn't ever have again.
Marc:So thank you for sharing yourself with all of us.
Marc:I think that much like my dad, you'll never truly know how many lives you've touched.
Marc:Keep up the great work, sir.
Marc:We love you for it.
Marc:Jenna.
Marc:So you're welcome, Jenna, and thanks for the brownies.
Marc:That ate a couple of and then then he couldn't sleep.
Marc:So they were on the level.
Marc:But man, they're chocolatey and sugary.
Marc:I was up and thinking till about three in the morning.
Marc:Then I had weird dreams.
Marc:The reason I read Jenna's letter first here is because the manic excitement.
Marc:So here's what happens in fucking Austin, Texas.
Marc:I get there.
Marc:I fight the fight with self.
Marc:I'm going to Opie's.
Marc:I'm going out to Spicewood.
Marc:I rented a car.
Marc:I didn't call anybody I know.
Marc:I just sort of like, I'm doing this myself.
Marc:I'm going out there.
Marc:You walk in.
Marc:They got the meats in the open casket dead smoker.
Marc:And you pick your meats.
Marc:The woman who owns the place, Kristen, she's always nice to me when I go there.
Marc:So I walk in.
Marc:And I see her.
Marc:She says she wants to go to the show.
Marc:She said she couldn't get tickets.
Marc:I'm like, I'll put you on the list.
Marc:No problem.
Marc:I had a good meal.
Marc:I drove back to the hotel.
Marc:I was just in a meat coma, in a sugar coma.
Marc:And I didn't feel great, but I was happy that I enjoyed myself.
Marc:So I get up from the meat nap.
Marc:I go out the door, go next door to Joe's Coffee.
Marc:I'm sitting there having a coffee and the guy walks by me on the street.
Marc:I'm like, holy shit, that's Jimmy Vivino from Conan O'Brien, one of my favorite guitar players and friend of mine.
Marc:And he's just walking down the street in Austin.
Marc:And I go, Jimmy, what's up?
Marc:He goes, oh, hey, man, I'm just in town.
Marc:I'm going to hang out with Jimmy Vaughn tonight and we're going to jam.
Marc:I'm like, wait, what?
Marc:Jimmy Vaughn's here?
Marc:yeah he lives here and when he's not on the road he just goes friday and saturday he plays up the street and i thought i'd fly in sit in with him hang out friend of mine i'm like wait jimmy vaughn one of my favorite fucking guitar players is playing tonight and you're gonna sit in he's like yeah why you keep repeating that i'm paraphrasing this and probably adding things to it to make it funny but i'm like holy shit i'm at the paramount tonight you want to go he's like yeah i'll say i'll put you on the list he goes then we'll go up and we'll hang out with jimmy i'm like are you fucking yeah
Marc:Fuck yeah.
Marc:So now all I'm thinking about is hanging out with Jimmy Vaughn and watching Jimmy Vaughn's fingers play.
Marc:I've not seen Jimmy Vaughn, who's Stevie Ray's brother.
Marc:And between me and you, I like his guitar playing better.
Marc:So I'm fucking excited.
Marc:So now I'm going into the show.
Marc:But I forgot to add a thing.
Marc:Kristen over at Opie said, you know, I'm going to bring somebody tonight.
Marc:And I'm like, well, that's great.
Marc:And she goes, well, I'll tell you who, because you might know him.
Marc:Chuck Woolery.
Marc:who lives out here now, he's a friend of mine, we hang out, and I'm like, you know, I'm thinking like, wait, Chuck Woolery, isn't he sort of like a, kind of a conservative guy that is a bit outspoken and maybe a little trollish on the social media?
Marc:Has he made some right-wing scenes on the social networking sites?
Marc:I didn't say all that, but it was going through my head, so I figured I had to tell her, I'm like, look, you know, I gotta be honest with you, I don't know how old Chuck's gonna respond to the show, I am sort of doing some, you know, some material about the scoundrel at the helm,
Marc:who's delivering humanity into a dark cloud right now as we speak.
Marc:I said, I'm doing some shit.
Marc:I don't know how long to go on for, but I don't need Chuck Woolery, host of several game shows, to get up in the middle of the show and storm out as those type of people, not him necessarily, but Trump supporters want to do, just tantrum out like little babies that can't sit through 15 minutes of reasonably funny criticism.
Marc:of a guy that deserves it.
Marc:But I tell her all this.
Marc:She goes, no, he's a good sport.
Marc:He's got a good sense of humor.
Marc:It'll be fun.
Marc:So now I got that in the back of my head.
Marc:I got, hell yeah, I'm going to see Jimmy Vaughn.
Marc:Hell yeah, I'm going to do a big show at the Paramount.
Marc:And oh, shit, Chuck Woolery is going to be there.
Marc:I go on stage.
Marc:I had this wonderful opener.
Marc:LaShonda Lester did a great job.
Marc:I go out.
Marc:And in the back of my head, I'm like, I don't want to go on too long because I'm going to go see Jimmy Vaughn.
Marc:And I do about an hour and a half.
Marc:I close on something new.
Marc:And the audience is fucking spectacular.
Marc:Just awesome.
Marc:It's a great theater.
Marc:And it was a great show.
Marc:And I did things I'd never done before, which is always great for me.
Marc:And then I'm like, I got to get up to see Boys to see Jimmy Vaughn playing his Fender Eldorado.
Marc:Weird guitar.
Marc:Hard to find.
Marc:Watching those fingers.
Marc:Hearing that phrasing.
Marc:I was in it, man.
Marc:I was there for like three hours.
Marc:And then Jimmy Vivino got up there and jammed with him.
Marc:And it was fucking great.
Marc:It was fucking great.
Marc:It was a genuine good time, and people were having a good time.
Marc:Just dancing, hanging out, watching, getting old-timey.
Marc:Nice vibe.
Marc:I met Jimmy.
Marc:Maybe he'll come on the podcast.
Marc:It was a real honor to meet Jimmy Vaughn.
Marc:I hadn't seen him since he played with the fabulous Thunderbirds when I was in fucking high school at the Golden Inn in Golden, New Mexico, in between Santa Fe and
Marc:in Albuquerque.
Marc:It was a biker bar that eventually burnt down, but I remember going up to see the Fabulous Thunderbirds, because I had those first two records, and I had a sharkskin suit, and I was greasing my hair up, and I probably had an old-timey tie, and I went up there, got shit-faced, danced my fucking high school ass off to the Fabulous Thunderbirds, and made it home alive.
Marc:And that was the last time I saw Jimmy Vaughn, and I asked him if he remembered that, and he didn't even pretend that he did.
Marc:And as a side note, Chuck Woolery apparently had a great time.
Marc:Hank Azaria is here.
Marc:He's got a new show on IFC.
Marc:It's called Brockmire.
Marc:It premieres on Wednesday, April 5th.
Marc:He wanted to come over.
Marc:I said, sure, Hank, let's chat.
Marc:So we did that.
Marc:Here it is.
Here it is.
Marc:What do you mean fly out?
Marc:Did you move?
Marc:I live in New York now.
Marc:You do?
Marc:I do.
Guest:I moved there three years ago.
Marc:Since the last time I talked to you?
Guest:Yes, definitely.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why?
Guest:I'm a New Yorker at heart.
Guest:I love New York.
Guest:You're right in the city?
Guest:In the Upper West Side.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:I wanted to raise my son in New York.
Guest:I wanted to raise a Mets fan is the simplest way to put it.
Marc:And you're totally out of LA?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Was that a relief?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, right?
Marc:Big time.
Guest:I mean, God bless you.
Guest:Yeah, I think about it all the time, pal.
Guest:I think about it all the time.
Guest:Well, you know, look, Ben Stiller's a friend of mine.
Marc:He was right in Westchester, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We have a little summer place not far from where he lives.
Uh-huh.
Guest:You know, it's just nice to be able to shut off show business.
Guest:In New York, show business is 174th of society.
Guest:Right, exactly.
Marc:And you can walk outside and there are people.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:And you walk and just lose yourself in the crowds and the humanity.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah, it's great.
Guest:You know, my son...
Guest:walk down the street with my son, he would see more of life and diversity in people in literally 20 seconds in a block than he would see in three months out here.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, I like it, but for me, it cuts both ways.
Marc:Like, eventually, I'm exhausted.
Marc:It is stressful.
Marc:You do need an outlet.
Marc:You need to escape to get out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, because I was there for years.
Marc:And then one day I was on a subway with someone's sweaty face next to my head who I didn't know.
Marc:And I'm like, I'm tired.
Guest:The personal space thing actually does become very stressful.
Guest:You find yourself getting literally physically edgy wanting to shove people out of your way.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But aside from that.
Guest:Apart from that.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:It's at least show business is dialed down.
Marc:But IFC is there.
Marc:IFC is there, yes.
Marc:So you're close to the source that you'll be working with.
Marc:You can just run down to the IFC office and say, what the fuck is happening?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You don't have to use the phone.
Marc:If you've got an extra hour, you can go down and just barge into Jen Caserta's office.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:You know all the players there.
Guest:Yeah, I just honeymooners that I just yell out the window.
Guest:Hey, Jen!
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:What the hell?
Yeah.
Guest:Is it Brockmire?
Guest:Jim Brockmire.
Guest:Brockmire.
Guest:I think I might have... Did I talk about this a lot?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Baseball announcer.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:One of these guys who sounds like this, who I grew up listening to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know why they all sounded like this, but they did.
Guest:Why was this the voice?
Guest:Why was this the generic vanilla announcer voice?
Guest:Well, I think it was because that's how broadcasting was taught.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:And it wasn't only the baseball guys and the sports guys.
Guest:It was the guy who sold you the Ginsu knife.
Guest:All of them.
Guest:It was just this voice.
Guest:And I was growing up fascinated with voices.
Guest:And the comic premise that I started with...
Guest:long time ago was, do these guys always sound like this?
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:You know, do they sound like me and you?
Marc:It's almost a stand-up bit.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it was.
Guest:I mean, Jim Edwards, he used to do a really funny baseball announcer thing.
Guest:A lot of guys, George Carlin did a really funny one.
Guest:Robert Klein did a hilarious one.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I always wondered if these guys are, like, do they come home, you know, honey, what is for dinner?
Guest:I am starving.
Guest:I'll tell you what, you know, do they...
Guest:And when they have sex, they're just like, oh, man, Brockmire not taking any chances.
Guest:Starting off with a missionary.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And oh, surprise finger in the keister.
Guest:Brockmire's in it.
Guest:I mean, so that was the idea.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then it became like, what if he flipped out on the air?
Guest:And then what if he was basically like Winnebago man?
Guest:What if he became like a viral video?
Guest:Oh, so that was.
Guest:That's famous for flipping out.
Guest:So we're talking about the pilot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:yeah yeah we're talking about well i did it as a short unfunny or die yeah it was that premise of the brought like as if he was a real broadcaster and he and he just loses it yeah he gets drunk he walks on his wife having sex with someone gets drunk and you know goes on the air yeah my welcome back folks to the bottom half of the fucking whore yeah yeah that kind of thing
Marc:The idea of the premise of a guy who's established somehow and losing it as the beginning, I always liked that.
Marc:Because I actually put together a show about a guy who was an advertising guy, copywriter, who snaps because of the corporate pressure and he sees the truth and ends up naked in a fountain.
Marc:And then he decides to do good work.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, help the world.
Marc:Went nowhere.
Marc:But I mean, I like the idea.
Guest:No, it's a chestnut.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a good nugget.
Guest:It'll work if you can find the gold in there.
Guest:So who'd you write it with?
Guest:I didn't write.
Guest:A very talented writer named Joel Church Cooper wrote them all.
Guest:But it was your idea.
Guest:It was based on a short that I wrote with some friends of mine.
Guest:But you're created by Hank Azaria and the other guy.
Guest:Technically, it's based on a character created by Hank Azaria, which is more technical.
Marc:Well, let me tell you something.
Guest:That back end money on IFC, you're lucky you got your name on there.
Guest:Listen, it took me so many years to make this thing.
Guest:I'm so happy that I made it and I like it.
Guest:And IFC, as we said before we sat down, they really do let you do what you want to do.
Guest:It is hard to get eyeballs.
Marc:Well, that's right.
Marc:They're great.
Marc:Jen's great, and Christine is great, and the people I work with, they were very supportive.
Marc:They gave us a lot of room.
Marc:People will watch it, and eventually they watch it on Netflix if it gets there, like my show.
Marc:I would be happy.
Guest:I'd love to have buzz and critics, but I'm happy with the show, and if we get to make it for a while, that's also good.
Guest:But, you know, once you're done with it, you're like, well, I did this beautiful thing.
Guest:And it's out there and people can watch it.
Guest:I actually thought of you a lot as we were making this show and coming up with the idea of it because it's a guy who... Look, you know, it's weird.
Guest:It's like about 10 years ago, I walked into my agent's office like, you know, come on.
Guest:What am I going to... I got to drum up business, basically.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, I had a bunch of characters that I did, this being one of them, but I'm not on SNL and where am I going to be at that point, age 42.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So they're like, you know, Funny or Die exists, go do a short there, which I did.
Guest:And you say like, and look, maybe if it's good, you develop it into something.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:But that never happens.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That actually happened with this.
Right.
Guest:But it took that long, huh?
Marc:I mean, that was 10 years ago?
Guest:We made the short, and then we were going to make it as a movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we got six weeks into prep, and then they pulled the financial plug into great loss of money.
Guest:And funny that I stayed with it.
Guest:I gave them a lot of... I'm very appreciative.
Guest:But, you know, I thought of you because...
Guest:In the same way that I was able, thanks to digital media, I was able to kind of reinvent myself or go completely, I wasn't going to pitch this at NBC and they weren't going to buy it.
Guest:And then if they were going to buy it, they were going to completely fuck it up.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which I've had happen a couple of times.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To be able to do that and go, well, fuck it.
Guest:I'm going to do what I want to do.
Guest:And then people go, hey, that's actually good and like it.
Guest:And then it actually does lead to something creative is awesome.
Guest:And that happens to Jim Brockmire.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He reinvents himself as this guy who'll say whatever on the air, you know.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That seems to be working for public people.
Guest:Which he has mixed feelings about.
Guest:But still, it's like, I mean, I can go on the air and be some kind of weird drunk and people will listen.
Guest:That's awesome.
Guest:It's like network.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore.
Marc:Well, that's great.
Marc:So how many episodes of this thing?
Marc:We did eight.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:And you're the guy all the way.
Marc:I'm Jim Brockmire the entire time, Mark Merritt.
Guest:And he's got a wife and children.
Guest:No, no, God, no.
Guest:He left his horrible wife publicly out of there, you know.
Marc:Oh, right, right.
Guest:So that really happened.
Guest:Which turns out she was this sex addict he had no idea for years.
Guest:She was the only woman he had ever had sex with.
Guest:They met in high school.
Guest:She was out there.
Guest:Ruined his life.
Guest:He went off traveling the world and calling, you know, finish Latvian wife-carrying competitions, which actually exist.
Marc:Did you shoot internationally?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:He just tells a bit.
Marc:Oh, he tells a story.
Guest:Where'd you shoot all of it?
Guest:In Atlanta.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:In Macon.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's set in actually more like Western Pennsylvania.
Guest:Everything shoots down there.
Guest:It's the law.
Guest:You must shoot down there.
Marc:In Atlanta.
Marc:So they've got the tax benefits down there.
Marc:Is that why?
Marc:Because I know CNN and Adult Swim and a lot of... There's a lot of TV presence.
Guest:At the time we were there, there were 57 shows shooting there.
Guest:57.
Guest:So they did the tax incentive thing, I guess.
Guest:They do, but a lot of states do that.
Guest:New York even does it.
Guest:New Mexico, where I grew up, does it.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:They built a studio out there.
Guest:Yes, but then it...
Guest:It goes musical chairs a bit because then only for a few years, I think, can a state sustain how cheap it is to be there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then the prices start to kind of go up and then Hollywood goes elsewhere because it's the next state that's hungry for it.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, it used to be Vancouver.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is that still happening?
Guest:Vancouver?
Guest:Believe that it is, but not as much as it used to.
Guest:How's the kid doing?
Guest:He's awesome.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's truly awesome.
Guest:Do you go out to Central Park and stuff?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We live right on Central Park, yes.
Guest:Oh, that's nice, huh?
Marc:So we're there constantly, yeah.
Marc:Oh, you got the good New York thing going.
Guest:Oh, I love that park.
Guest:Park's a miracle.
Guest:Are you going to musicals and stuff?
Guest:I have been to many a musical.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, I'm due to, like, I haven't seen a lot of the latest, like, Dear Evan Hansen, and I guess Jake Gyllenhaal's about to do Sunday in the park, which supposed to be great, and...
Guest:That's exciting.
Guest:You like it.
Marc:You like doing the theater.
Guest:That's the reason I love New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I like doing theater.
Guest:I did a play at the public about a year ago, and I really like going to the theater.
Guest:What did you do at the public?
Guest:I did a play with John Krasinski and Claire Danes called Dry Powder about private equity in New York.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Was it good?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was very good.
Guest:A woman named Sarah Burgess, a young aspiring, wonderful writer named Sarah Burgess.
Guest:It was her first play.
Guest:That Claire Danes is a very earnest individual.
Marc:Yeah, she's a very intense actress.
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:I've had her in here and it's sort of like she's in it and straight up.
Marc:And you know what I mean?
Marc:It's intense.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She brings that energy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, she doesn't do theater all that often.
Guest:So she was very focused on doing her best.
Guest:And it went well?
Guest:It did, actually.
Guest:I really enjoyed doing it.
Guest:Did you go see Hamilton with the kid?
Guest:I didn't bring the kid.
Guest:You didn't?
Guest:The kid loves the music.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But, you know, I'm still old school enough.
Guest:I think that's actually... There's too much... Too much dirty words?
Guest:You know, besides that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's too much to try to explain to him afterwards.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then also see something like that when you can actually appreciate it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like even that goes for Star Wars, too.
Guest:I'm like, that's a big deal.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Don't...
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Don't do it too young.
Marc:Yeah, watch it when you know what's going on.
Marc:Well, it's like your old school in that like, I don't want to have to backload explaining things when it can happen organically.
Marc:Why not, you know, let the kid be out in the world and come back and go like, what does that mean?
Marc:As opposed to just it all dumped on him one night and you got a lot of questions to answer.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Look, we showed him Star Wars because the movie was coming out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And all the kids in the class were talking about it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So, he was behind the curve.
Guest:And I was like, all right, I'll show you this because technically- The first one?
Guest:Yeah, the first three.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Good ones.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, sure enough, I had to pause it every two minutes to explain what he was seeing.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it was just beyond his reach following a plot like that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, I get it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, just like, wait a minute.
Guest:Why is Luke doing that?
Guest:Look, his uncle and aunt who raised him were just killed, so there's no reason for him to stay on the planet.
Marc:They should have, like, what do you call it, on the extras where you have, like, they should have parents explaining on the extras for kids that are too young.
Marc:Just a parent going, all right, if you're under seven, what's happening?
Guest:The whole time, the movie turned into a five-hour experience because they had to stop and explain it all.
Guest:Is he a sports kid?
Guest:he's more of him like a i mean he actually is quite uh coordinated and athletic but he takes after his mother and prefers music and magic so how are you going to get him into the mets what are you going to do oh i just say he has absolutely no choice about that yeah i just bring him yeah and if he's had if he'd rather focus on hot dog and ice cream that's fine with me
Marc:But you want to make sure you did your job as a sports fan, as a Mets fan, to at least indoctrinate the kid.
Guest:He'll take it from there.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:He can take it or leave it, but I'm going to present it.
Guest:So what do you got going today?
Guest:After I leave you, Mark Maron, I'm headed over to my friend Rich Eisen's where I'm going to do his podcast, both as myself and then as Brockmire.
Guest:I do a lot of Brockmire schtick with him.
Guest:He's a friend of mine.
Marc:You have a costume?
Guest:I actually do.
Guest:I have my Brockmire drag with me.
Marc:So the next thing you're doing is also on video?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:All right.
Guest:So you're going to do half hour or whatever is you?
Guest:I'll do myself and then we'll pre-tape something for later as Brockmire.
Marc:Oh, God.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And what's the big rollout?
Guest:What are they going to do for you?
Guest:You know, the response to this has been awesome.
Guest:I have, you know, you know I'm going to do Colbert.
Guest:I'm a New York guy.
Guest:But like, you know, I got a Vanity Fair spot, which I've never cracked Vanity Fair before.
Guest:I was like, really?
Guest:I was like, wait a minute, really?
Guest:Really?
Marc:they're gonna do a little piece on you little piece yeah and then uh howard stern i've never never been on stern never been on stern gonna go on howard oh that'll be fun yeah i'm you know i was nervous about doing it i only did it once and it took years it was only a few years ago and i was just i was terrified i'm a little nervous about it too i just kept thinking like oh what's he gonna find what's he got on me what's he gonna come at exactly but he's a thoughtful guy now he's a little different
Marc:Yeah, no, totally.
Marc:It's a different tone.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:A little self-aware.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Done a little therapy.
Guest:He's a little older.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's softened a bit.
Guest:For years, I've really wanted to get on the show.
Guest:I have been a fan.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I'm very excited to go chat with him.
Marc:Well, that's thrilling because if you are, and obviously, even if I'm not, it's not that I'm not a fan, but he is Howard Stern.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So as you get older, there's fewer and fewer things that make you go like, I'm excited about that.
Guest:I've got to tell you, that play I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We had some fancy folks come as the public.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I don't really get nervous about that stuff.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But the night I knew that Howard was there was the only night that I was pretty uptight performing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just really wanted to do well for Howard.
Guest:I think it may be also knowing that he'll probably talk about it the next day.
Guest:I mean, he always talks about whatever he did the night before.
Guest:Did he?
Guest:He did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was very kind, actually.
Guest:But, you know, if you suck, then he's going to say, yeah, I think it's very kind of suck.
Guest:He didn't do it.
Guest:No, he was actually very complimentary.
Guest:I'm just happy he's going to the theater.
Guest:I know.
Guest:He doesn't usually, I think.
Guest:I think he's friends with John Krasinski through Jimmy Kimmel.
Marc:Okay, because it used to be his schedule didn't really allow him to do anything.
Marc:Yeah, no, true.
Marc:But now I think it's a little easier.
Marc:He's got a little more time.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Well, best of luck with it.
Marc:And say hi to Jen and Christine and the gang.
Marc:I will.
Marc:At IFC.
Marc:Despite however difficult I became in moments, they were very supportive.
Guest:Oh, I see.
Guest:And they were good.
Guest:Therein lies a tale or two, eh?
Guest:I'm going to go ask about this.
Guest:I'll tell you when we get off the mic.
Guest:I'll tell you it all and I'll tell you what to look out for.
Marc:But great, great, great creative, supportive people over there.
Marc:They are, actually.
Guest:They don't over-note you.
Guest:They give you suggestions and say, do what you feel is right.
Marc:Sometimes they're good suggestions.
Marc:I mean, it's not network.
Marc:It's not like a bunch of people second-guessing themselves, wondering who they can blame when it fails.
Guest:I've been through so much of that.
Guest:Yeah, I bet.
Guest:It's so soul-crushing.
Marc:It's horrible.
Marc:I just I don't I'm not cut out for it.
Guest:It's very hard.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you know, it's why it's thrilling about this, you know, second golden age of television we're living in where at least you can go, you know, however, it might be frustrating where maybe it's hard to get traction or eyeballs, which it is.
Guest:but you can make the thing man just to be able to do what you want like you know i remember you know genji cohen for example who created orange is the new black and she was a writer i met about you back in the day when i was there and that was a pretty good show but i remember she was pretty frustrated creatively i just did a show of hers did you i did the the wrestling show the glow oh yeah gorgeous ladies wrestling i'm in all of those oh that's awesome and uh yeah i'm excited about it was a blast working with her and allison brie and and the writers
Guest:uh liz and carly it was like i'm like the weird thing about doing a thing like that where we shot 10 episodes and it was you know it was intense and it was unique and then you got to wait half a year yeah i'm gonna watch it when's it gonna be oh i'm having that with brockmeyer like because actually i'm so used to i'm so zen trained to whatever i do i just forget about it because what difference does it make right like i'm fortunate enough to have a long career i'm a character actor and right something's gonna come up
Guest:but i i really am happy with how this came out which is a tough spiritual place to be in because you get very attached yeah you know to it wanting it to do well yeah and then you wait yeah then you have to wait a long time but genji it's like so thrilling to see somebody like that who's so creative get to do what she really wants to do oh she's great and laid back and like you know thoughtful and just uh yeah she's great yeah and
Marc:And it was amazing.
Marc:Like, she produced it.
Marc:She didn't create the show.
Marc:That was Liz Flayhive and Carly Mensch.
Marc:And it's basically me and 14 women who were, you know, and I've got to somehow, without knowing anything about wrestling, create a wrestling show.
Marc:That's pretty awesome.
Marc:Did you have fun doing that?
Marc:I did.
Marc:It was my first, you know, foray into not being me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Which really was about just turning off a little bit of the neurotic and wearing clothes from the period.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was the acting job.
Guest:That sounds completely like a good acting advice.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Just don't take that part that you do away and just weave the other stuff.
Marc:How's Mr. Stutz doing?
Marc:You know, I don't speak to him as much.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:But he's great.
Guest:I talk to him sometimes.
Guest:Luckily, I'm not so fucked up that I need to talk to him.
Guest:This is another good Phil Studd story.
Guest:I was seeing him a lot at one point and I said, so Phil, I think mostly because of money, I said, Phil, I'm doing all right.
Guest:I think I'm going to maybe instead of once a week, every other week, maybe once a month.
Guest:And he went very earnestly, yeah, all right, you can come once a month, but do come because you're really fucked up.
Yeah.
Guest:Straight up, honest.
Marc:Well, it was great seeing you, Hank, and best of luck with the show.
Marc:Thank you very much, Mark.
Marc:Nice to see you, too.
Marc:Fun.
Marc:Hank is energizing.
Marc:He's one of those guys, you get around, you feel energized.
Marc:Jason Zinneman.
Marc:You know, I think a good critic is important to the evolution of things, of art.
Marc:It's, you know, good critics can teach you something about the form and about yourself if you're the one being criticized sometimes.
Marc:But, you know, it's always a bit contentious.
Marc:Jason Zinneman has always been kind to me or reasonable to me when he's written about me.
Marc:And he's upset me when he hasn't.
Marc:And he's challenged me personally just by some of his opinions about things.
Marc:So that's a good credit.
Marc:Uh, but when he came over, I didn't know what to expect.
Marc:I didn't know, you know, I, I had a little chip on my shoulder about something to do with Lenny Bruce, but, but like, uh, it, this was, it seems to be happening a little more now where we, you know, there's a interesting mix of personal conversation and intellectual conversation going on that I really, I dig it.
Marc:I dig it.
Marc:And, uh, you know, and once we got going, I was, it was great.
Marc:It was great to talk to Jason and his book is great.
Marc:He had a sort of, uh,
Marc:Amazing access to David Letterman for his book, The Giant of Late Night, which comes out April 11th.
Marc:And this is a Jason is a New York guy and he was out here and it was a lovely conversation.
Marc:And here it is.
Marc:Is it new?
Marc:Yeah, I'm not used to this.
Marc:Jason, come on.
Marc:You have to... I sit and write.
Marc:I sit and write.
Guest:This is... I guess so.
Guest:Is this your first book?
Guest:Second book.
Guest:Then I did an e-book also on Chappelle, but second real book.
Marc:What was the first one?
Guest:It was about horror films in the 70s.
Marc:When did you write that?
Guest:Five years ago, and all the sources were all around here, too.
Guest:They're Carpenter.
Guest:You've had a lot of them now.
Guest:John Carpenter.
Guest:John Carpenter, Toby Hooper, Wes Craven.
Guest:I spent five years with those guys.
Marc:Chappelle, you wrote an e-book on Chappelle.
Marc:He's been elusive for me.
Marc:I mean, I run into him.
Marc:I talk to him.
Marc:He acknowledged it, and I made the offer to him.
Marc:You did?
Marc:Yeah, but I mean, I think with him, it's like you're going to have to catch him in some weird moment where he...
Guest:I think that's exactly right.
Guest:I think if you like, you see people who bump into him at a club and then spend the next 24 hours with them.
Marc:Well, that's it.
Marc:You know, like if I had the equipment in the car or something or, you know, I was like, you know, when we do it now, it's like, all right, you know, maybe that would happen.
Marc:But I've, you know, I've known the guy.
Marc:I can't say that I know him.
Marc:But I mean, I remember when he came to New York when he was like 17 or whatever, however old he was.
Marc:I mean, I was there, you know, working, you know, coming up myself.
Marc:So I remember him as a kid.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I've had, you know, pretty long conversations with him at different junctures in life.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, you know, he's sort of a mythic presence in a way.
Guest:Well, he's become, I mean, it's interesting.
Guest:I don't think he designed this.
Guest:But, you know, if you look back when he left Comedy Central.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:From a pure career move, at the time it seemed crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think you could look back and say that was the smartest move he could have done.
Guest:Because he turned down whatever it was, $50 million, and he was probably one of the most popular, if not the most popular comedians in the country.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he became mythic.
Guest:And he remains, he could show up at any city.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Announce a show the day of and it's packed.
Marc:Yeah, no, it's fascinating.
Marc:And but the real hinge to that was it may have been in retrospect and framing it retrospectively as a great career move is that the fact that he delivers the goods is everything.
Marc:So like, you know, if he did what he did and then showed up and stunk, it would have been a bad thing.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:True, true.
Marc:But, you know, he happens to have the goods consistently and remains interesting and engaged and intelligent and funny.
Marc:So it continues on.
Guest:But a lot of people, as you know better than anyone, a lot of people have the goods and then they think, if I don't get on TV, then people aren't going to see it.
Guest:What's exciting about Chappelle, the late Chappelle, is he is an event.
Guest:He's a live stand-up event.
Guest:You have to go.
Guest:You have to work to go to see him.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:There are other guys like that.
Guest:There are.
Marc:I mean, I think that, you know, I mean, they don't have the same heft of cultural importance, but, you know, Brian Regan, I haven't seen him on TV in a million years, and he's a huge act.
Guest:That's true.
Marc:You know, Gaffigan is not really on TV that much.
Marc:You know, everything's sort of fragmented.
Marc:I mean, it seemed that your career sort of hinged on your specials at some other point in time, but, I mean, it seems now that maybe someone will watch your special.
Right.
Yeah.
Marc:You know, you just did your third hour for whoever.
Marc:Yeah, I hope people can find it.
Guest:Well, I think also what's happened is now everyone's so accessible, you become, you know, that if you're on Twitter, you're on YouTube.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Going back a little bit, not letting people see you has a different kind of power than it did before the for social media.
Marc:I think if you do have some momentum, I think that, you know, that only applies to certain people that, you know, occupy a large space in the cultural consciousness.
Marc:You know, like if I disappeared for a year, I don't think, you know, when I came back, I'd be filling arenas or anything.
Guest:I don't know about that.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'll tell you, when I did the Chappelle book, you know, Chappelle's from DC, which is where I'm from.
Guest:And so I spent a lot of time in the DC standup scene in the 80s.
Guest:And I talked to his best friend from high school who started as a standup with him.
Guest:Dave?
Guest:Yes, Dave Edwards.
Guest:And he said that Chappelle always talked about how much he loved Bobby Fischer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And how Bobby Fischer disappeared.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he became... Now, out of no clue, that's real or whatever, but that's what he said.
Guest:I've always been fascinated by that comment by...
Guest:Bobby Fischer, the chess player.
Guest:The chess player, right.
Guest:Bobby Fischer was the greatest chess player in the world.
Guest:He played Spassky.
Guest:And then he went MIA.
Guest:And he returned, you know, and he seemed like kind of a crackpot.
Guest:But the fascination about him, right, the famous movie Searching for Bobby Fischer endured.
Guest:And I just thought, I mean, if that's close to true.
Marc:That it was in there.
Guest:That it was in there, that's just amazing.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Well, I mean, you know, I, it's sort of like people have these, even with the, the current president, it's, it's, everyone thought it was some publicity stunt, but if you really look at, you know, how he's engaged in around what for the last decade or two, it seems like it was always sort of on his mind.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:But, and, and, and he's an entertainer as well.
Guest:He really is and was a part of not just entertainment, but comedy and reality TV.
Guest:I mean, publishing, you know, I think a lot of people like you and me, I'm in the media and comedy have a different attitude toward Trump because in a weird way, our world's created him.
Guest:I mean, he was the art of the deal was written by a New York magazine publisher.
Marc:writer yeah and then a reality show producer took that idea and blew it up to create the apprentice and his his appearance on roasts you could see him honing i followed him on conan once really yeah there's a i don't know which one it was but i knew i like i made a joke about him and it was in the 90s and after i made the joke about him because he he had pulled out a condom and just started fiddling with it in the middle of his segment and
Marc:and i and i made a joke uh i think the joke was um why why's he got a condom doesn't he know prostitutes carry their own these days and then i said uh well this might be my last tv appearance you might find me in the east river i mean i said that in 1990 something when was that early late mid 90s yeah interesting and you know i was already intimidated
Guest:I've been studying old Trump Letterman appearances.
Guest:I'm going to do something on it.
Guest:I don't know what.
Guest:But I think there hasn't been a story written about how huge a part Trump was of Letterman, both late night and late show.
Guest:And most of those appearances haven't been seen or not on YouTube.
Marc:So you don't discuss that in the new book?
Marc:I don't.
Marc:No, I don't.
Marc:Letterman, the last giant of late night.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:He was.
Marc:He was.
Marc:I hope I think so.
Marc:So let's go back to, you know, because you've written on me.
Marc:You've seen me.
Marc:I don't really know you.
Marc:I'm usually happy with what you write about me.
Marc:I don't think you've really you know, you were very kind to me after the big Brooklyn Opera House performance, that marathon show, which was an interesting show.
Marc:And you did a nice piece.
Marc:You didn't have to.
Marc:I didn't know you were there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's the weird thing about, you know, most when a film critic comes to review or theater, they know the critics there.
Marc:I'm glad I didn't know.
Guest:A lot of people don't know I'm showing up.
Marc:I had no idea.
Guest:Are you glad?
Guest:I'm curious about that.
Guest:Does it bug you that this piece showed up that you didn't know was going to be there?
Marc:No, I never know when anything's going to be there.
Marc:I, you know, and for me with criticism or with, with people that know how to write what you do, like a, I find that generally it should rise above a review and that it should be, you know, engage me.
Marc:And if there is critical elements that if they're thought out, I can handle it.
Marc:You know, a lot of, you know, I learned from, from criticism.
Yeah.
Marc:I don't learn much from reviews because they're usually shallow.
Marc:But if somebody takes the time to write and is a real critic, cultural or otherwise, usually it's thoughtful.
Guest:I mean, I feel... I mean, I don't know if there's another critic who's reviewed... I've reviewed your work in a theater, in theater work, solo show in 2000.
Marc:You did?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:For who?
Marc:For what magazine?
Guest:For Time Out in New York, when I was starting my career.
Marc:You did... You reviewed Jerusalem Central?
Guest:I've reviewed you as theater, as stand-up, as podcast, as TV, as... I've reviewed all of these parts, and it's been absolutely fascinating.
Guest:I mean, what...
Guest:I come to your work in a different way than I do for other people because I've seen how you've evolved and changed and grown.
Guest:And, you know, you've created this.
Guest:And now in a weird way, it feels like along with being a stand-up, you've moved into my territory.
Guest:I mean, I consider this.
Guest:I mean, you know, one cliche about critics is that we're failed artists who are jealous of artists.
Guest:And for the most part, that is not true with me, that I never really wanted to be an actor or a stand-up or any of that stuff.
Guest:Right.
Guest:want to do what I'm doing but you're an exception in that I am a little jealous of because I know how hard it is to interview in fact that's the part of my job where I feel like I still have the most to learn and it's still the part that I think the most about
Marc:Really?
Guest:And I think you, I don't even know if you know it, but just intuitively, you have figured out certain things about interviewing that it takes people a long time to figure out.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, and in a weird way, you're someone who I look like, obviously, you do different stuff than I do in stand-up, but when I hear you with Matt Graham...
Guest:I mean, I've been in interviews like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a tough terrain to figure out how to handle that.
Marc:Well, you know, where'd you come from?
Marc:Where'd you grow up?
Marc:D.C.
Marc:Okay, you just said that.
Marc:See, that was a bad interviewing thing.
Marc:I should have remembered that, but you reminded me.
Marc:So you grow up in D.C., and what is the life there?
Marc:What kind of world do you grow up in?
Marc:You got brothers and sisters?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I got two, I got a brother and sister, both much older.
Guest:My mom, my dad's worked in the State Department, so that's why we're in D.C., but my mom found- Is he still there?
Guest:They're still there because my mom founded a theater the year I was born, a theater and acting conservatory, which is now one of the bigger regional theaters in the country.
Guest:So I grew up around- Is your dad still at State?
Guest:No, he's retired.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:He's retired.
Guest:And my mom's still working.
Marc:What was the last administration he was in?
Guest:Well, he doesn't see himself as part of any administration.
Guest:He's like a career bureaucrat.
Guest:Now you're seeing all these stories about them having tension with the Trump administration.
Guest:I don't know what the equivalent of my dad would say today, but when he was working there, he would say, politicians come and go, guys like me stay.
Guest:We would make the government run.
Guest:And so he wasn't a political figure, although he spent a lot of time overseas.
Guest:My brother and sister were both born in Thailand, and I spent time in Malaysia.
Guest:He was focused in Southeast Asia.
Guest:But the reason we stayed in New York was my mom's theater.
Guest:In D.C.?
Guest:Yeah, in D.C.
Guest:I mean, I'm sorry, in D.C.
Guest:And it started out as a small operation?
Guest:Tiny.
Guest:I mean, it was like there were actors in my basement doing scenes.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you were a mistake, or they had you later in life?
Guest:That's the first time I ever... See, this is a... Yes, I was a mistake.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was actually a mistake.
Guest:There was a... There was a birth... There was an IUD called the Copper 7.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it didn't work.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's a whole generation of kids
Marc:Copper Seven Baby?
Marc:I was a Copper Seven Baby.
Marc:That sounds like a good band name.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:My parents were done with kids.
Marc:We were done with kids.
Marc:And there you come.
Guest:And my mom was starting a theater.
Guest:The last thing she needed was a kid dragging her down.
Guest:But she had you.
Guest:She did have me.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And what's the age difference between you and your siblings?
Guest:My sister's 13 years old and my brother's 10 years old.
Marc:Oh, they were really done.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I had an only child kind of childhood.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And that was like a latchkey kit.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:My parents, they had done it.
Guest:They sort of left me alone.
Marc:And, well, yeah, they'd done it twice and they probably had a handle on it.
Marc:You know, maybe.
Guest:Maybe, maybe.
Marc:But you have a good relationship with your siblings?
Guest:Yeah, pretty good.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:And both your folks are still around?
Guest:They are.
Guest:They are.
Marc:All right, so you're a little kid and you got actors.
Marc:What was the bent of the theater?
Marc:What year are we talking about that the theater came around?
Guest:Like 75.
Guest:Oh, so it was like 80.
Guest:exciting like kind of uh you know probably cutting edge ish you know there was pushing some envelopes in the theater then people taking chances still i think that's right that's right and it was definitely like they would do you know the the off-broadway shows the next year you know edward alby david mamet yeah they would do a lot of uh solo shows you know a lot of like you know people who were doing performance art the next year they would come to dc right show there and uh that was at your mom's theater
Guest:That was my mom's theater, yeah.
Guest:And so, I mean, I didn't realize at the time, but looking back, that was a huge asset to grow up.
Guest:She was a director, too, so she would, you know, the kind of dinner conversation would be about solving some problem with some pain.
Guest:Staging.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:So, a lot of your childhood, I guess, like, she would bring you to the theater?
Guest:Yeah, I saw a lot of stuff I probably shouldn't have seen.
Guest:And you were hanging around?
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it was exciting.
Guest:I met a lot of, you know, you know, I mean, I was excited to see these plays early and to see, you know, whatever August Wilson would come or Israel Horowitz had a play.
Guest:And he'd come in, you know, who at the time for me was the Beastie Boys dad.
Guest:That was really exciting.
Marc:I was in Indian Wants to Bronx in college.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Do you ever think about going back and like doing a Broadway show or something?
Marc:Yeah, I don't know if that opportunity is really, you know, one that I can get.
Marc:But I did like it.
Marc:You know, it is sort of, you know, acting is exciting to me.
Marc:But I don't know if I lost my confidence or I didn't follow through or I didn't know if I was good or not.
Marc:But like over the course of doing the TV show, I think I learned how to do it.
Marc:And, you know, I can see that.
Marc:And, you know, I was ready to...
Marc:to accept that because I'd seen other comics kind of bumble through a season or two before they kind of lock into how to be there.
Guest:Theater is different though.
Guest:I think you'd also, I mean, most people who aren't built for theater, but that's not true for standups.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Who know what it's like to perform in front of an audience.
Marc:No, it'd be interesting.
Marc:Maybe I should seek out an opportunity to do that.
Marc:Maybe not on a huge scale, but certainly when I perform, like when you saw me in Jerusalem Syndrome, I don't know, but even that night...
Marc:at BAM when you saw me, and I did like over two hours or whatever the hell that was.
Marc:There were moments when I'm in front of like, that's 2,000 people, and if I'm at my best, I have to be pretty there.
Marc:I have to be pretty vulnerable.
Marc:There's no like, me kind of plowing through an act is not really an option.
Marc:Obviously, I have an act, but if I don't have some sort of very tangible emotional connection to an audience, I don't like it.
Marc:It frustrates me.
Marc:So when I was sitting there in front of that many people, there were moments there where I'd bring it all the way in and I almost became too small.
Marc:But I kind of thrived on it.
Marc:There was something really organic and strange about just sitting there on that stage and not doing anything.
Marc:Yeah, I'm not knowing.
Guest:I remember at some point you sat on the edge of the BAM opera host stage.
Guest:Right now.
Guest:So why did you do that?
Guest:Why make that decision?
Marc:Because I felt like I wasn't connecting.
Marc:So like, I think it's impulsive for me to at least, you know, make it as human as possible in those moments where I feel like it wasn't that I didn't feel like the act wasn't working.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was just that it was hard for me to gauge what was happening with so many people.
Marc:And I was sort of reaching out.
Marc:And I sort of psyched myself up a little bit.
Marc:But usually if I'm doing over two hours, it's not because I'm doing great in my mind.
Marc:It's because I'm going to keep doing it until something happens.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:See, that's fascinating to me because I think as someone who's covering comedy now, I think one of the biggest challenges in this moment when there's a lot more comics playing big rooms.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:is how do you maintain this connection with the audience?
Guest:With 2,000 people.
Guest:And the people who are geniuses at doing it in small rooms aren't necessarily... You have to relearn how to play a big room.
Marc:I think there's a way to play it, but I'm not always convinced that the method works for everyone.
Marc:Because if you talk to Louie or probably Bill or some of these cats who are doing it, is that they stay big.
Marc:and they make sure the shit is tight.
Marc:And they know exactly where those laughs are gonna come.
Marc:I think the nuances that can happen in a smaller room, improvisationally or intimacy wise, happen naturally because of proximity.
Marc:But if you're gonna do a big room, you can't really rely on that as fuel.
Marc:So you gotta make sure your bits are fucking hammers.
Marc:And you pace them out.
Marc:But the weird thing that I learned that I think is true as somebody who has dealt with theater is that those rooms, no matter what size, are all capable of handling profound intimacy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And it's really on the performer to be present for that.
Marc:So that became the interesting thing to me when I started working big rooms was how small can I make this room?
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:Yeah, no, I mean, look, that's a big issue.
Guest:You know, Broadway houses are big.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And this is a challenge for actors when they go from off-Broadway houses to a Broadway house.
Guest:If you talk, this is a universal issue.
Guest:I mean, I've done a lot of reporting.
Guest:I'm actually going to see the last, Barnum & Bailey Circus is closing.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And I've talked to- Moved to the government.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:The clowns will tell you that Cirque du Soleil killed clowning, or some clowns will say it, because the scale got so big and that the acrobats kind of came to the fore.
Guest:And it's a different art to perform for 150 people clowning to 2,000 people.
Guest:You can do it.
Guest:In fact, you can do clowning as well suited because it's big.
Marc:That's interesting, though.
Marc:The acrobats...
Guest:took center stage whereas like in a functioning kind of varied circus it was just another element it was a death defying element but it wasn't all of it exactly in fact clowns were the stars that are beginning early Cirque du Soleil and you know that was in the history of circus yeah you know Bozo the clown clowns were stars yeah they've been a little bit marginalized from most of the big circuses people go to see
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:And that's how you're moving into that piece?
Guest:Well, I've been thinking about it because I'm writing, I'm working on a sort of elegy for Ringling Brothers.
Guest:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:Which is, you know, I don't think people, I mean, this is, I'm going to write about this next week, I think, but the people don't realize what a big deal it is.
Guest:This is like if Disney closed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, if you talk to someone from 100 years ago and you told them Ringling Brothers, Barnum Valley Surrogate is going to close.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It would be like if you're telling someone now that Disney's going to close.
Guest:Right.
Marc:It was the circus.
Guest:I mean, before radio, if you lived in Sacramento or whatever, and you wanted to see entertainment from New York, that was the circus.
Guest:The circus came to town.
Guest:A lot of our language comes from the circus because that was mass entertainment before we had radio and TV and all this stuff.
Marc:They'd erect the tent.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:There's a reason people wanted to run away and join the circus.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:It seemed like a whole other world.
Marc:It was a world unto itself.
Marc:It's sad.
Yeah.
Marc:I think it is sad.
Marc:Did you see the circus when you were a kid?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I love the circus.
Guest:And I love Barman Bailey.
Guest:I think I was the last... I'm giving her my whole story, but I think I was the last generation that saw Ringling Brothers as the greatest show on earth.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, when I was a kid, Cirque du Soleil was a quirky, arty, European circus.
Marc:Right, it was only in a couple... Yeah, right, right.
Guest:And Ringling Brothers was a big spectacle.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then Cirque just... I mean, what's interesting is if you look at...
Guest:In a way, it's like the auto industry.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The Ringling Brothers was a symbol of American scale.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And now it got beat by a fucking French Canadian country and no one gives a shit.
Guest:Like if GM goes down, it's a blow to our ego.
Guest:How come this isn't a blow to our ego?
Guest:This is why I want to write this piece.
Guest:Like this, if you talk to someone from the 30s and 40s, I mean, Ronald McDonald comes from, you know, Ringling Brothers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:America didn't invent the circus, but we supersized it.
Marc:Yeah, it's an American institution.
Guest:And now it's dying.
Guest:So if you want a symbol for the Trump era, this is, I mean, it's interesting that, but yet no one's sort of- Making those connections.
Marc:That's on you, man.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:So you're this little kid, you're sitting through Edward Albee, you're watching actors spit and sweat, your mom's directing things, you're hearing August Wilson talk.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:You're sitting around watching actors converse.
Marc:You see how they light the place, how they stage manage the place, how they build the sets and everything else.
Marc:But it never struck you as something you wanted to do.
Guest:Well, for exactly that reason.
Guest:I mean, you don't want to do what your parent wants to do.
Guest:I mean, what struck me is when the reviews showed up at the door.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And for about 10 years, my mom got panned from the Washington Post, which was- Oh, really?
Guest:And there was kind of a ritual to getting that review.
Guest:A rage ritual.
Guest:And that struck me as a kid.
Guest:And looking back, some of those vivid memories are my mom's response to getting, then she got about 10 years of good reviews.
Guest:What was her response?
Guest:I mean, just apoplectic rage.
Guest:I mean, she'd read it quietly, then there'd be a pause, then she would take sentence by sentence, and she would just rip into each sentence, and then she would- And you were like, that's what I wanna do.
Marc:Pretty much, pretty much.
Marc:That seems to have an effect.
Marc:Okay, that guy's getting through to my mother.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Well, it must be like if she cared that much about it, right?
Guest:Something important is there.
Guest:Something important is there.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So, I mean, you could cycle and say, oh, it's a rebellion that I became the enemy of the performer.
Guest:But I think it's more that I think on some place, some level, my mom, like a lot of theater people, hated critics.
Guest:She still probably will tell you she hates critics, even though her son is one.
Guest:But she cared about what they said, and she was a...
Guest:And remains a real arguer about art.
Guest:I grew up in a household where art mattered, was a consequence.
Guest:That movie didn't just suck.
Guest:It should make you mad how bad it sucked.
Guest:And if a great work is exhilarating and discussions about art were not secondary discussions about politics.
Guest:And that definitely had a big impact on me.
Marc:Yeah, it's a world of intellectuals and people who believe in the power of creativity and art to change things and people.
Marc:I worry about that world.
Marc:My girlfriend's a painter, and as we were talking about at the beginning here, these books, whether or not I've read most of them or not, represent a time where you probably grew up in a house that looked like this.
Guest:oh yeah oh yeah fetishizing book my dad takes my dad's favorite pastime was going to used bookstores which are all gone and he would spend a good bit of his time his for fun yeah knew all the used bookstore owners in dc and the surrounding areas and they knew him right and he had these eccentric interests he was interested in medieval history and all the stuff it was nice to go to those places and talk to the guy yep maybe there's someone else sitting around yep
Marc:I completely revered that world.
Marc:It was a world that I think that in my mind came out of the 50s and 60s where a lot of media, the small amount of media that was around then, indulged intellectuals in those discussions like Cabot and even Carson to a certain degree.
Marc:There was definitely a place where these guys could talk about, even in small bits and pieces.
Marc:I just watched James Baldwin on Dick Cavett.
Marc:And it was profound.
Marc:I mean, it was an elevated conversation.
Guest:That was challenging.
Guest:On national TV.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:On national TV.
Guest:I mean, on network TV at a time when network TV really meant something.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Everybody watched one of the three movies.
Guest:No, I mean, I worry about that.
Guest:You know, there was a time when there was a critique of the kind of simplistic distinction between high and low culture.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that was a good critique to have.
Guest:And a lot of my favorite critics wound up reading Pauline Kael and Susan Sontag.
Guest:But we've gone so far in the other direction that I do look at like, again, this goes back to how I was raised.
Guest:My mom, in a lot of ways, was a kind of old-fashioned snob.
Guest:Right.
Guest:She...
Guest:High art was better than low art.
Guest:You did movies to make money, but you did theater because you were an artist.
Guest:That's not right, but she had a standard about this.
Marc:And art films were there to elevate the form of film and could be differentiated from movies.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And TV.
Guest:She had no use for TV.
Guest:Now she does.
Guest:But back then, I grew up in a household that had... And where that came from is complicated.
Guest:There's probably some insecurity that goes into.
Guest:But I think now it's become... That point of view is way out of fashion.
Guest:You won't find a critic who will say, oh, all of...
Marc:Right.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:TV, reality television is all shit.
Guest:You can't even say reality.
Marc:I think there was an evolution of that, too, in criticism, you know, with film critics that, you know, were taking, you know, people like I think like maybe Kale did it.
Marc:But I'm trying to remember some of the other ones who were, you know, assessing the history of mainstream movie entertainment.
Marc:And, you know, once the tour theory sort of revealed itself in France in the 50s, that, you know, started to kind of backload that.
Marc:Into the studio directors who had a point of view and then elevating, you know, what was once considered, I think at the time, these mainstream entertainments, but were clearly the visions of these directors and kind of established that, you know, outside of the parameters of what those movies were intended for.
Marc:And that's how you get a sort of more robust film criticism.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Theory.
Guest:Yes, no question.
Guest:And I mean, there are problems with that view in auteur theory.
Guest:And a lot of my career has been about questioning the auteur theory in a way, both in film and in even this Letterman book.
Guest:That these art forms are more collaborative than the auteur theory allows, etc.
Guest:That said...
Guest:those thinkers who came about created this intellectual discussion and created a belief in standards that I think served them and then their sort of successors well.
Guest:That not everything has the equal ambition.
Guest:It's not just about execution.
Guest:It's that certain works of art have a higher execution and are more difficult to access.
Guest:And we should consider that when judging this works of art.
Marc:So then what do you do?
Marc:You go to college and you study what?
Guest:History.
Marc:Just straight up?
Guest:I studied actually history of the treatment of the mentally ill, actually.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What compelled you?
Guest:It's a good question.
Guest:I went through several majors.
Guest:I was with philosophy and then English and then I went to history.
Guest:And then I had a professor who I really liked who studied it and I was interested in...
Guest:the sort of mental hospital as an institution, as a way to keep people out.
Guest:And the way that our definition of mentally ill has changed over the generations and what that says about us as a culture.
Guest:And then I got fascinated.
Guest:I wrote my thesis on
Guest:In the early century, there was this millionaire named Harry Thaw who shot and killed Stamford White, who was probably the most famous architect of his day, on top of Madison Square Garden and over a woman.
Guest:Stamford White was sleeping with his wife.
Guest:And the trial about it, which was like the O.J.
Guest:trial of his day, had this great debate over, he pleaded insanity.
Guest:And so because I think I like this sort of story, the story is so great in New York, and I got dug in and made it all about the sort of debate among shrinks of the day.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And but there's no good reason for it.
Guest:I just I didn't really have a lot of direction, to be honest with you, about what I wanted to study.
Marc:But I guess it was that that focus seems sort of compelling and loaded up and full of possibilities of, you know, kind of like trying to contextualize, you know, sorted and disturbing vulnerabilities in people.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's, I mean, it's great stuff, right?
Guest:Like what, and also like how you could be considered crazy in one generation, but three generations later, not, or how the number of the, you know, the DSM has been grown and what, what we now know is being gay used to be, you know, mentally ill.
Guest:Pathological.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Pathological.
Guest:This, I mean, you can learn a lot about us as a culture on how we are mentally ill.
Marc:Cause like, this is a unique thing that you have.
Marc:You, you are the first New York times comedy critic.
Marc:That was a position that was made for you.
Guest:Well, in a lot of ways, what's great is that I kind of helped make it.
Guest:They knew they wanted to cover comedy, and they had a few ideas about what they didn't want to do.
Guest:But one of the benefits is I got to kind of map out what it would look like.
Guest:But it took a while.
Guest:I mean, I covered theater before that for about 10 years.
Marc:Right, so how do you get into that?
Marc:Because I did a little film reviewing in college for the paper.
Guest:I did a little tiny bit, but the truth, I didn't go to journalism school.
Guest:I didn't do that much.
Guest:I wrote a few reviews here and there in college, but everything happened by accident.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Everything happened by accident.
Marc:What was the first accident?
Guest:I mean, I didn't know what I wanted to do.
Guest:I went to this publishing course in Radcliffe, which was recommended to me and really teaches people how to be in book publishing.
Guest:And I really hated it.
Guest:And my first published story was in Salon and was like a critique of this thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Of the thing you were studying.
Guest:Of the thing I was, yeah, of the course I did.
Guest:Troublemaker.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And that was, I enjoyed, that was the first thing I published.
Guest:Then I got a job at the Jewish Forward, the newspaper, and I got fired from the Jewish Forward.
Guest:For what?
Guest:Well, this is, I'm responsible for the most anti-Semitic thing to appear in the august history of the Jewish Forward.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My job, I was a copy editor, and one of my jobs was to type in all the letters to the editor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we had this one letter to the editor from an old lady, I assume it was an old lady, in Virginia responding to an article about Hebrew schools.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Half the articles were about Hebrew schools.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she was talking about how in her day, the Hebrew schools were better.
Guest:The rabbis were better and the students were better.
Guest:And she had one sentence which was, we all knew that Micah taught us first to do justice, then to love mercy.
Guest:Now I'm typing and, you know, typing, typing, typing, typing.
Guest:There's like tens of thousands of words.
Guest:Some figure in the Bible.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'm bad Jew.
Guest:So I make a typo.
Guest:which then gets past all the editors and into the Jewish forward.
Guest:Instead of we all knew that Micah taught us first to do justice, then to love mercy.
Guest:I wrote, we all knew that Micah taught us first to do justice, then to love money.
Guest:So this woman picks up the paper, sees that she said under her name, calls up the editor of the Jewish forward.
Guest:I'm fired that day.
Marc:And it was an honest typo?
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:This goes back to Freud, I guess.
Guest:No, it was an honest typo, but it was a low moment for me because I didn't know what else.
Guest:I was unemployed for a while.
Guest:I needed to pay my rent.
Guest:I mean, New York was cheaper back then, but it was desperate times.
Guest:And now it's a great story.
Guest:I love telling the story, but I didn't know what I wanted to do.
Guest:And it was the...
Guest:i temp for a while and then i got a job um at city search which was like the first online boom was like timeout online and i worked as a book editor and i did reviews here and there yeah and a job opened up a timeout new york for a theater critic when i was real young and really just be i think probably because i grew up around theater most 22 year olds haven't seen all of
Guest:David Mamet's works, you know?
Guest:And I hadn't because theater's too expensive.
Guest:That's why comedy is sort of past it in cultural relevance.
Guest:And so I had, no credit to me.
Guest:I just grew up around it.
Guest:So I got a job at Time Out reviewing downtown stuff, which is where I reviewed you for the first time.
Marc:The Jerusalem Syndrome.
Guest:The Jerusalem Syndrome.
Guest:And I was pretty much under the radar because I wasn't covering Broadway.
Guest:I could screw up without big conferences.
Marc:And it was Time Out, which was primarily a guide.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You know, the pressure was different.
Marc:It was really just a listing magazine.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:And you could...
Guest:You had a little more word count than you do now.
Guest:So from there, the Times back then had a Friday column for theater, news, gossip, business stuff that was a very powerful column that had been around for a long time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was where if you were a Broadway producer and you wanted to announce you were doing a new musical, you would break it in that column.
Guest:And the guy left.
Guest:And I applied and got that job, which was the scariest year and the year I learned the most in my life about how to be a reporter.
Marc:Well, because this was an establishing that had a format, in a way, and you had to then be this greenhorn in the world of New York theater, and you had to be brought through the, what do you call it, run through the, not the rings, the...
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Obstacle course of the obstacle course, but sort of like, you know, it's a baptism by fire.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In the politics of New York theater.
Marc:We ever see sweet salt success.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's like that.
Guest:Everyone's lying to you and you got to and you have this, you know, you have this column, which is everyone wants to get in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you and you have to the coin of the realm is breaking news.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you have to.
Guest:And the problem is it was at the same time the internet was beating the paper.
Guest:So you'd have to threaten producers.
Guest:My job is to go out with Broadway producers every day at lunch and try to dig up stories or do a lot of gossip.
Guest:I was doing gossip column stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was this 26, 27-year-old kid who, you know, I was just, and these are the greatest liars in the world, the Broadway producers, right?
Guest:They were so, and it was the times, it was very intimidating.
Guest:So, and I remember the first week, because basically the column, I killed the column.
Guest:I basically, this is this legendary column, all sorts of great writers came out of this column.
Guest:And I remember the first week there, Frank Rich, who was sort of running the show back then.
Guest:You like the way he writes?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I grew up on Frank Rich.
Guest:He's brilliant.
Marc:He is a real great critic, that guy.
Guest:No question, no question.
Guest:But I remember he, and I was obviously really intimidated by Frank Rich.
Guest:And he said, because the thing is the internet was making this column obsolete.
Guest:We couldn't hold stories.
Guest:So he said, you got to save the column.
Guest:And his wife, by the way, was the greatest writer of this column ever.
Guest:It's like his wife is Muhammad Ali of this.
Guest:What's her name?
Guest:Alice Patel.
Guest:She's just brilliant.
Guest:So I was always I was like a year of stress.
Guest:And then I did kill it.
Guest:So I did not save it.
Guest:And then I was you didn't kill it.
Guest:I didn't kill it.
Guest:He couldn't keep up.
Guest:This is one thing I've learned over my career, that you are put in some positions to succeed and you are put in some positions to fail.
Guest:Now, you have a lot of say in whether that happens, but the situation is almost as important a lot of times.
Guest:And that was a situation where if I knew what I know now, I think I could have made it work.
Guest:But it was a situation that was sort of doomed.
Guest:The comedy column was a situation set up to fail.
Guest:If it screws up, it's on me.
Guest:I mean, all the advantages, well, that had all the disadvantages.
Guest:But I was sort of in the wilderness for a few years after that.
Guest:And I was doing third string theater reviewing.
Guest:And that's when I decided I wasn't very happy.
Guest:I looked to go to law school.
Marc:Third string for the times?
Marc:For the times.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it was great because I was doing some of the same downtown stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Which I love and still love.
Guest:And then I wrote a book.
Guest:So then I wrote this book on horror films.
Guest:And then when that book came out, that's when the comedy job was offered.
Guest:It was offered?
Guest:Well, I got a call.
Guest:I mean, it was a call that kind of changed your life.
Guest:And I said, like, you know, it was from the culture editor at the time, John Landman.
Guest:And he said, we want to cover.
Guest:And, you know, the Times had been dropping the ball on this.
Guest:You know, we had never covered all these people until they got TV shows.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And they were doing work in New York institutions.
Marc:Constantly.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, so we would cover the most obscure off-Broadway play, but we wouldn't cover Jerry Seinfeld.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And moreover, we wouldn't cover the economics of Catch a Rising Star.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right?
Guest:I mean, there's all sorts of... Well, we would cover the economics of Lincoln Center.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Why?
Guest:It doesn't make any sense, right?
Marc:Especially because it was invented there, in a way.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:totally it's as New York as you know and you could say it's as New York as you know it's in a lot of ways some of the greatest stories are business stories and history stories and I've tried to write those and that was one of the first decisions I made is that I didn't want it to I wanted it to be a column I wanted it to do some reported stories and I wanted to write about the business I wanted to write about gatekeepers and also service the city
Guest:and service the city i wanted to cover these i mean this it's a fascinating world as you know i mean i look i've been listening to this podcast since the start yeah and part of what my education besides just going to clubs constantly yeah it's i mean it's a great time to be covering this field because you got shows like this in which you don't have to do any legwork and you can learn a ton
Guest:onto shit yeah we're here to service the critics yeah make it easier for you guys you do you do i mean when it when i was covering theater i had to go to sardis and you know i had to talk to some old guy who ran the schubert theater now you just look at the wtf list it's like oh maron talked to him let's see if i can pull a quote
Guest:pretty much pretty much yeah um so uh so yeah i decided i was going to do criticism and reporting and i decided i was going to do um they didn't want to cut they didn't think you should cover like oh that mark maron's got a show we're going to review it in this that one show the way we would review a dance performance it's harder because sometimes that's the only one show
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I mean, with a dance or a theater, it's the beginning of a run.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:So, like, what's the point of publishing something about a show retroactively unless you can frame it in a bigger context?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I mean, I'll be honest with you.
Guest:I'm surprised I haven't gotten into more trouble with comedians about... I mean, there was this question that I struggle with, which is what is a unit of comedy worth reviewing?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, in theater, there's an opening night.
Guest:You review the opening night, right?
Right.
Guest:Now, in comedy, there's some of that.
Guest:Like, Chris, you know, there's people who have shows that you get invited to and stuff.
Guest:But you also have people performing every single night at these clubs.
Guest:A lot of them are doing it to working out material.
Guest:Right.
Guest:At the same time, they're charging money.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the journalistic ethic says if they're charging money and people are going to see it, this isn't a preview.
Guest:This is a journalist.
Guest:You cover what's there.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But also then you have to learn the way that comedy works is that, you know, the comic isn't necessarily making money if he's dropping in to do 15 minutes on a paid show.
Marc:And all those people are thrilled that he's there, but he's not.
Marc:That's not that's not why he's doing.
Marc:Very true.
Guest:Very true.
Guest:So it's a balance, which I had to figure out.
Guest:I want to respect the comedian and the artist.
Guest:And I also need to be, you know, live up to the kind of creative covering this field, honestly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, you know, it's evolved a little bit, but, you know, I would try to not write about someone who I'd seen once.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I would try to see, I would try to, I thought of like Mark Maron's set as a unit.
Guest:Right.
Guest:As a, I mean, not one show, but I would like listen to your work.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Well, that's what you're afforded in that world that, you know, was relatively unexplored before you started the column is that, you know, with most comics, you have a sort of like really undocumented history to the form itself.
Marc:they're engaging in to what part of comedy they came from to how it plays against what used to be I mean there's there is that whole place to draw from that gives it a context that is always you know relatively new to people I think to readers yeah yeah and that's the way people when people go see your show they know who you are they have this context of what you're done in the past and that's part of what you're sometimes the jokes are riffing off that image sure so to ignore that seemed to be a mistake so let's talk about the letterman book a bit yes and
Marc:How much access did you have to him?
Guest:I started this book saying, I don't need to talk to him to write this book.
Guest:And I said that to, I sold the publisher on that idea and I told my friends that and I said it for like a year and a half and essentially lying to myself.
Guest:And I, from the beginning they said like, you know, they were open to it.
Guest:They didn't say no, but they, I was unsure if I was going to get it.
Guest:So I reported the hell out of it, everything around him.
Guest:It turned out to work out perfectly because by the time he agreed to do the interview, it was he had finished the show and he gave me, he wanted to talk.
Guest:And I knew his, you know, it was almost, I think, you know, I talked, I've been to Indiana.
Guest:I talked to his old friends.
Guest:I've been to LA.
Guest:I've been all over and I wasn't on a fishing expedition.
Guest:I knew exactly what I wanted to know and I knew the things I didn't know.
Marc:And you still didn't factor him in necessarily.
Marc:You were good writing the book without talking to him.
Guest:I had written the book without him, but then I talked to him and it was supposed to go for an hour.
Guest:I went for four hours.
Guest:He probably could have gone for 10 hours if I had not prepared for one hour, which was the hardest part.
Guest:If I could do one thing over, I would prepare for a longer interview.
Guest:He was incredibly open, direct.
Guest:He's a great interviewer.
Marc:And this was after he retired?
Guest:This is after he retired, yeah.
Guest:And then I basically rewrote a lot of the book.
Guest:But I didn't change the essence of the book and the structure and the ideas and the narrative.
Guest:But a good part of it was just like, is this true?
Guest:Is this true?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And then once I got that done, then we talked kind of more at length.
Marc:You talked about his old days as a weatherman.
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:We talked about... The first chapter goes into... I think one of the reasons Letterman got The Tonight Show so fast and was big so quickly is that he had a long backstory of performing... Broadcasting.
Guest:Of broadcasting in Indiana.
Guest:He was like a minor celebrity in Indiana.
Guest:He had the confidence.
Guest:And when he came to the comedy store, he was confident in front of a crowd.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Now, he wasn't seasoned as a joke teller.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But that confidence, you know, the people, you know, the management company, the people in the night show saw.
Guest:And so, yeah, and, you know, you could, I have a, you know, I talk about a time at Ball State when he was kind of a troublemaker.
Guest:He went to Ball State.
Guest:People forget.
Guest:People think Letterman is this older generation, you know, the heart of the culture wars in the late 60s.
Guest:And he was a fraternity brother.
Guest:in a fairly conservative frat house.
Guest:But in his own kind of way, he created this culture war on the campus of Ball State.
Guest:There was a radio station which didn't play rock music.
Guest:And he would introduce, one, he would sneak rock music on it.
Guest:He was a DJ?
Guest:He was a DJ.
Guest:And he would make kind of, turn the straight news, he would make up elaborate lies, essentially.
Guest:And would piss off these like, the teachers and the boss.
Guest:And they, you know, it was eventually fired from his first broadcasting job, but he kind of polarized the broadcasting campus.
Guest:And from that was that relationship, I think you could see kind of echoed in how what happened with NBC.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He has a he's a very conservative guy on paper.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Indiana small, you know, broad, broad ripple.
Guest:But he has a kind of his impulse is to be always irreverent towards what's in front of him, particularly if it's a powerful institution.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's not an intellectual thing.
Guest:It's just his impulse is to make fun of, you know, whatever it is.
Marc:Yeah, take down the big guys.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And I think one of the reasons I wrote this book is, you know, I was a huge Letterman fan as a kid.
Marc:That's a very short jump to speaking truth to power.
Guest:Well, I think people today forget why Letterman was great to a kid seeing it in the 80s.
Marc:It blew my mind.
Marc:When I was in college, I had to watch it.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Because he'd have these guests on, you're like, what's he going to do?
Marc:Right.
Marc:He was confrontational.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:He was not just irreverent, but literally it was uncomfortable sometimes.
Marc:And he would sit there in it.
Guest:This podcast in a lot of ways, I mean, is the only thing that resembles those interviews today.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It doesn't exist anymore.
Guest:That kind of hostility between host and a guest that was fascinating.
Marc:I mean, I don't have that as much anymore, but yeah.
Guest:But, you know, there's a challenging, you know, it's not just come on and promote your thing and do your canned story.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And there was a sense that Letterman was counterculture in this weird way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also, back then at 1230 at night, that was real late back then.
Guest:There was nothing else to watch.
Guest:And you had kids like me who grew up outside of New York who Letterman to me was New York cool as like a nine-year-old, 10-year-old.
Guest:Which is weird when you think about it.
Guest:Here's this guy from Indiana who's a weatherman.
Guest:And to kids like me, he seemed, there was something a little dangerous about him.
Guest:And in a way that what I've learned is, of course, many comedians had the same experience.
Guest:And it's something that doesn't exist now because now at 1230, there's limitless options.
Guest:But back then, people who were interested in something that was oppositional to show business, that was criticizing television,
Guest:they would watch letterman and he spoke in a kind of code that was really exciting yeah um and i think the people who are young um see letterman as this kind of grand old man yeah and people who are old had or my age uh i guess i'm old they have forgotten because they hadn't seen those shows it's hard to find them relative to snl episodes sure which are replayed constantly yeah
Guest:So I was worried, there's a long history of giant talk show stars being forgotten.
Guest:I mean, how many people really know Jack Parr?
Marc:Yeah, I had to go to the Museum of Broadcasting when I lived in New York to watch Jack Parr's shows and to see weird Woody Allen appearances and to see Jonathan Winters on Jack Parr.
Marc:And then I had to go out of my way to watch Steve Allen.
Marc:There was a time where I wanted to do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And with Letterman, once you start to learn how compulsively he was trying to take the next step past Ernie Kovacs and past Johnny Carson, but still have a certain respect for the context.
Marc:That you have the mode, which is the talk show, so how can I just wreak havoc on this without fucking with the desk in a way?
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:And then after he did that, as I see it, he made it a forum for personal expression in a way that all great artists do.
Guest:You saw him every night for 30 years, and in his own very ironic, repressed, tightly wound way, he revealed himself.
Marc:No doubt.
Guest:And that's what artists do, right?
Guest:And that's why I think, you know, the title, Ask John and Late Night, I mean, that's sort of the next step for the reason Letterman, I think, should be remembered.
Guest:And the reason he is, is that, you know, he's a complicated eccentric.
Guest:He's a neurotic
Guest:You know, what I learned in reporting this book is Letterman's personality has got more in common with your personality than I would have thought.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Even though he's, and one question I thought of is sort of like, what is the difference between like a Jewish neurotic and a Midwestern Gentile neurotic?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think in some ways it's darker, it's harder to be a Midwestern Gentile neurotic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Jewish neurotic, it's sort of like when people, it's hard to be a Jewish comedian for having the press not call you neurotic.
Marc:Well, you have this weird relationship with self that is really the fuel of it.
Marc:Like the compulsion of the Jewish idea of having to push harder to get somewhere is very hard on yourself.
Marc:So the dialogue between you and your unmet expectations...
Marc:I think, fuels a lot of neurosis.
Marc:It's inherent in it.
Marc:Whereas, you know, if you're repressive by nature, you know, I imagine a lot of it festers more.
Guest:That's interesting.
Guest:I think that's right.
Guest:I think that's actually... I think that's exactly it.
Guest:It festers, and if...
Guest:I think it came out only on air for him.
Guest:And only if you watched religiously.
Guest:You could see what he thought about GE through a shift in the way he looked.
Guest:The intonation of a line.
Guest:You could see that he was making, and I go into it,
Guest:That, you know, he would make jokes.
Guest:You know, at one point when the strike, the writer strike, he did this, the head of NBC sent him a toaster because he was making fun of GE.
Guest:So he did the, he stopped the show.
Guest:He didn't have any writers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he made toast.
Guest:And he just sit there and he waited there.
Guest:He put the toast in.
Guest:And that was, I see, like a subversive radical act.
Guest:He's like, look, you got this TV show and this major national network and you're not paying, you're keeping a strike.
Guest:I'm just going to sit here.
Guest:and make toast.
Guest:I'm not going to tell a joke.
Guest:I'm not going to do anything.
Guest:I'm going to sit here and make toast.
Guest:You gave me this gift.
Guest:And that was a great example of how a guy who's like a tightly wound, you know, Midwestern guy can express himself very articulately to his fans.
Guest:As a kid, that's what I related to.
Guest:Then I, you know, I kept, the book is about his whole, is a biography of his whole life, but it focuses on the first show and about, I try to,
Marc:The first late night show?
Guest:The first late night show at NBC.
Guest:I pinpointed three different periods in that show, and they're distinct aesthetically.
Guest:And I talked to everyone who worked on the show, and I think one of the fundamental beliefs, which we talked about earlier, is that I think...
Guest:Most things written about late night hosts all rest on this assumption that I am skeptical of, which is, I think Johnny Carson said this once, where he said, it's all about the man behind the desk.
Guest:If you want to figure out how to understand these shows, it's all about the man behind the desk.
Guest:I don't believe that.
Guest:I think that these are huge collaborative affairs, and there's writing staffs, and there's production people, and there's context of the time in the network, and there's a lot of brilliant people who came through this show who had a huge impact.
Guest:A big part of this book is about Letterman's relationship with Meryl Marco.
Guest:That's kind of a backbone that snakes through the whole book.
Marc:But also, though, in speaking to Carson's statement, that it needs to move through that guy.
Marc:True.
Marc:That once that show, once he established what he would and could do,
Marc:You know, people would write to it and know where the risks that they could take would be received and encouraged.
Marc:But it had to be moved through the sensibility of that guy behind that desk.
Guest:A hundred percent.
Guest:And that's why that's in part why.
Guest:In the early years, I do more reporting on, like, what the writer's room is like.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then, because the early years, he wasn't some famous guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was just some guy.
Guest:He was a weatherman.
Guest:And he was... You had these writers like George Meyer and, you know, Max and Tom.
Guest:These guys who went out to create The Simpsons and all this stuff who didn't... Weren't in awe of him.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But the next generation... Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They were in all of him.
Guest:They were trying to figure out what he wanted.
Guest:So they became, as the years go on, it became more and more about him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he's building, of course, on the reputation that was created collaboratively.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Through him, always, really.
Guest:But, I mean, this is where I feel like my experience as both a critic and a reporter comes into play.
Guest:That I tried to, I began with this critical idea that he's important.
Guest:and we've ignored this period, or I want to remember this period.
Guest:But then I sort of take off the critic's hat, put on the reporter's hat, and try to approach it with an open mind and be like, all right, let me talk to everyone I can to figure out how are these bits created?
Guest:How can we explain the fact that David Letterman worships Johnny Carson, and yet to a lot of people, including myself, he seemed the antithesis of him?
Guest:I think it got to a place where, you know, you tune into the Tonight Show to see the guests.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think you tune in to Letterman to see him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then he would have some people on who, like, you would never see Brother Theodore or whatever.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You wouldn't see anywhere else.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, you know, Sandra Byrne.
Guest:I mean, the guests I liked were the ones who were real.
Marc:The recurring, yeah.
Marc:Richard Lewis, Leno, Bernhardt, Brother Theodore, and then, you know, Chris Elliott's stuff.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But also, I think there was something... Letterman...
Guest:As a kid, there's no performer who shaped my, not just sense of humor and sensibility, but really down to the way I talked.
Guest:There was a whole generation of people who imitated the way Letterman, the sort of ironic detached style he had.
Guest:He had a sensibility.
Marc:Well, yeah, and that was interesting, too, because I always tune in for just him.
Marc:And, you know, and I was like, and also the other thing is, is that, you know, you build a relationship with these people.
Marc:And as I got older and he got older and, you know, once the CBS show sort of got its legs and then he had the heart problem, you could sort of feel...
Marc:that a vulnerability opened up in him about life and about how he engaged with people and about what he thought about the world.
Marc:There was a wisdom and a sensitivity that wasn't there before.
Marc:And then you sort of saw him slowly really not give a fuck anymore.
Right, right.
Marc:And that was beautiful.
Guest:Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Guest:Well, what I say in the book is funny because in his early days, he would present the idea that he didn't give a fuck.
Guest:Like making the toaster is kind of like, but he really did give a fuck.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:In his late days, he really did.
Guest:And you're right.
Guest:It is something beautiful about it.
Guest:And he became this...
Guest:I mean, his late period is really fascinating.
Guest:He became more storytelling.
Guest:He was more off the cuff.
Guest:Took more time at the desk.
Guest:He got political, which he was not.
Guest:It was interesting.
Guest:Look back in the 80s.
Guest:You could watch Letterman and think he's conservative.
Guest:He wasn't, but you could think he was.
Guest:People like Rush Limbaugh loved... He listened to Rush Limbaugh in the 80s.
Guest:Anne Stern, who's also totally different than him, but he really respected him.
Marc:So what, after spending all the time in him...
Marc:in his mind and in his life, what was the takeaway of him as a human?
Marc:What was surprising where you were like, oh, there's something here that I could never have anticipated?
Guest:Well, Steve Young, who is a writer for Letterman for decades and really brilliant guy, he said something.
Guest:He said, everyone's born at an emotional temperature and it goes up and down, but you have that temperature.
Guest:And he said, Letterman, his sort of natural state is seething with unhappiness.
Guest:That's his natural state.
Guest:And the, I think during the, I think, you know, off camera, you know, he was often kind of a tortured guy.
Marc:And- Oh God, I remember the one time, like there's one time where, you know, I did the show, I think four times, but the moment that I'm talking about was that, you know, I was going up to the floor, to the dressing room, and I guess he, you know, used to run the stairs for exercise.
Marc:Right.
Guest:and it was just me getting off this elevator and just seeing him like just kind of move through right and i'm like wow right what's going on there yeah i mean it's a weird position because he he's the rare i mean i don't know now it's different now you have a lot of comedians who people look to for yeah but he was a comedian with gravitas like after 9 11. yeah right and i i believe
Guest:that part of the reason people really believed him when he would be soul searching is that for the first part of his career he was so detached from emotion.
Guest:He kept that at a distance.
Guest:It's like the end of The Godfather when you see Marlon Brando play with the kid.
Guest:everyone cries because seeing a guy like that get emotional hits you harder.
Guest:And I think Letterman was like that.
Guest:Letterman was never, he wouldn't be gushing on the show.
Guest:So when he did, which was at the end of his career, he would do it more and more at the end of his time at the show.
Guest:It really had a disproportionate impact.
Marc:Yeah, and also the way he handled that blackmailing situation was spectacular.
Marc:But it was spectacular.
Guest:Yeah, I read about that.
Guest:In some ways, I think I say it's one of his greatest performances.
Marc:Like he just copped to it and then like leveled the guy's ability to do anything.
Marc:He's like, and like my thought after that is like, so what?
Marc:He's not, he's not the president.
Marc:He's a fucking entertainer.
Guest:And he did this thing.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:He did.
Guest:And he did.
Guest:Actually, I'll tell you something.
Guest:I haven't said this, but the, I had the craziest experience in writing this book.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I get the interview with Letterman, and I show up early, and I go across the street to the Au Bon Pain, and I'm waiting, and I'm nervous.
Marc:I had that with Springsteen.
Marc:I was at a Dunkin' Donuts down the street.
Guest:It's bad when you're early.
Guest:You gotta kill that time, and you don't know what to do.
Guest:So I'm at the Au Bon Pain.
Guest:I make up something to buy so I could sit, and I'm sitting there, and I'm like, what am I?
Guest:This could be my fever dream.
Guest:I notice what looks like that guy who blackmailed him, I think his name is Joe Halderman, if I'm getting right, was sitting at that au bon pan across the street from where I was going to do the interview.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And I didn't trust my own sight, like, is this my nervousness coming?
Guest:But I must have stared at him enough that he noticed me staring at him and started, like, who is this guy?
Guest:And stared at me back.
Guest:And so I just got shook up.
Guest:I went to the bathroom.
Guest:And I came back and I swear it, it wasn't far from CBS where that guy worked.
Guest:I don't know the, or he used to work.
Guest:And then I just, I thought it was him and I went out and did the interview.
Guest:But to this day, I mean, because I was like, how crazy would that be if that guy was right there?
Guest:His greatest antagonist.
Guest:Anyways, I'll know him now.
Marc:Yeah, maybe you constructed it to get you jacked up.
Marc:Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Marc:Well, great.
Marc:Well, congratulations on the book.
Marc:And I guess you told me before we started, you were just in North Carolina a few days before me.
Marc:You're following Rock on the Road, seeing how that comes together or what?
Guest:Yeah, well, I wanted to see his first time, his first tour in nine years.
Guest:It's good.
Guest:It's not the funniest tour I've seen, but it's his most personal.
Guest:So in that sense, it was as compelling.
Marc:And he's probably building too.
Marc:He's probably still working it.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:I mean, he talked about, he had divorced last year.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so he talked about that pretty frankly.
Guest:And, you know, I don't usually... Chris Rock has talked about some personal stuff, but I think of him as more of a political or social commentator.
Guest:So seeing him open up a bit was really interesting.
Marc:So, all right, so you're following him.
Marc:And I recently went back and read your Lenny Bruce piece because I thought I was mad at you, but it turns out I wasn't.
Marc:I'm mad at Patton.
Marc:About...
Guest:I think Pat took some shit for that for that quote.
Guest:Yeah, I actually I let me defend Pat.
Guest:I think he was I wouldn't just throw him under the bus.
Guest:I think he was speaking for a number of people.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:But see, the weird thing is it's sort of not unlike not unlike Bill Hicks in a way.
Marc:OK, right.
Marc:Who Patton would never say that about.
Marc:right is that you know my favorite bill hicks joke out of everything he's fucking ever done really right is a very short joke where he says to the girl he's dating he's been dating a girl like a year and a half he said he says uh i guess it's time to to you know pop the big question why are we still going out
Marc:And I think what gets missed with Lenny is that he had a lot of great jokes like that.
Marc:He had a lot of jokes that weren't just connected to the times or dated or irreverentially stream of consciousness.
Marc:He had solid fucking jokes.
Marc:And I think they hold up.
Marc:So I get mad when people contextualize him as this guy that didn't make sense and they watch that one fucking piece of film that is him at his worst.
Yeah.
Marc:You got the only thing there.
Guest:I listened to all Lenny Bruce songs.
Guest:I think it's an interesting subject to examine, the question of how comedy ages.
Guest:And I don't think it's the same as how great somebody is.
Guest:No, I agree.
Guest:There's better comedy that ages worse and worse comedy that ages better.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, the context is so important.
Guest:And you can't entirely, I think what Patton was saying was sort of like, just as like a consumer, I listened to some of the stuff and it doesn't make me laugh.
Guest:The impetus for that story actually was this question I thought was, what I think is unfair, there's a kind of prejudice out there.
Guest:The idea is that comedy doesn't age as well as other art forms.
Guest:And I was thinking about it a lot.
Guest:I still think about a lot of this.
Guest:Like, what are the stuff from long ago that seem like they haven't aged a day?
Guest:And, you know...
Guest:And I think Bob Newhart doesn't age a day.
Guest:I think there are answers to that.
Guest:I think Lenny Bruce has... You're absolutely right.
Guest:He's got real jokes and a lot of his stuff is still really funny.
Guest:And there's some stuff which is the politics have changed, but you could still get it enough.
Guest:But I think there's no question that...
Guest:listening him to now in the current context you lose something just like you lose something when you listen you see letterman now i mean yeah um right now what what do you lose is sort of the question the uh but
Marc:Yeah, that's interesting.
Marc:And I agree with you.
Marc:Also, I think that a lot of times comedy, if it's not visual and it's just audio, you listen to it a few times and you don't really see the need to listen to it again.
Marc:Whereas you watch a movie over and over again.
Guest:That's true.
Marc:Or you'll see a play with a different cast over and over again.
Marc:But once you've heard the bit three times, how many fucking times can you listen?
Marc:You're going to wait a few years.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:So the challenge now in the political climate, which we talked about, it's going to be interesting to see how that unfolds.
Marc:Are you on the pulse of that?
Marc:Are you formulating ideas?
Guest:You know, it's hard because sometimes I feel like not writing about Trump is silly because that's what everyone's thinking about.
Guest:And then I have ideas that have to do with Trump and it seems silly to write about it through the context of comedy.
Guest:I've struggled a little bit.
Guest:to figure out the way to, but I mean, I've done a lot of reports, I've talked to a lot of comedians about what it's like to perform post-election.
Marc:And what are you hearing?
Guest:The first couple of weeks, people were saying things that was like they were comparing it to after 9-11.
Guest:I mean, it's people like, you know, Ted Alexandro and Judah Freelander, they were both from the sense that the audience was upset, people against Trump, but also there were some pro-Trump people who were talking back to the stage.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then you had Amy Schumer booing and all this stuff.
Guest:And now I think it's going to be really interesting to see the first couple specials that come out that are really digging into what it means to be Trump.
Guest:I just saw a preview of Gerard Carmichael's first special, and the first line is something like,
Guest:it's a close-up of his face.
Guest:It's actually really interesting.
Guest:I haven't seen a special close-up, and he says, like, are we okay?
Guest:That's the first, and it's just like a tight close-up.
Guest:So I think, you know, if you look back at Bush, you had guys like David Cross.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Who made their, you know, made their stand-up bones on really strong Bush material.
Guest:I'll be interested to see who really figures out a way to go at Trump.
Guest:He's a unique...
Guest:or to address the response to it.
Guest:But I mean, in the short term, I feel like one of the great things about stand-up is that you can react to current events immediately.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you can talk in an incredibly polarized climate where the left and the right don't talk to each other.
Guest:Stand-up comedy is one of the few areas where people from both sides are often in the same room.
Guest:And that's a powerful thing.
Guest:And I mean, the fact that people walk out, booed Amy Schumer,
Guest:says something about that we're not so fragmented that she's not drawing Trump people.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Where if you go to the theater, if you're doing a political play at the public theater, you know, there's no one who's going to boo you if you're criticizing Trump.
Guest:The only way you get booed or disrupt people is criticizing the left.
Right.
Marc:Well, I do hope that it continues to cross pollinate and that the bubbles don't become so secure that we are completely living in two different countries.
Marc:And I think the thing that's difficult is even with Bush is that, you know, the people that were, you know, in charge with him were evil, but they were pros.
Marc:You know, this is a whole new agenda and it doesn't seem to have a lot to do with with, you know,
Guest:dialogue right no true and on top of that these people are not only uh amateurs but a lot of them come from the same world uh that entertainers come from i mean you look at you know steve bannon you made movies uh great a bitter screenwriter
Guest:Yeah, there's the Mnuchin, whatever, Stephen, the Secretary of Treasuries.
Guest:He had money in other Hollywood films.
Marc:Oh, I don't know.
Marc:We don't have to get into the specifics of it.
Marc:We'll see what happens, right?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:That was good, man.
Marc:That was a great talk, Jason.
Guest:This was super fun, Mark.
Marc:Thanks for doing it.
Guest:Yeah, great time.
Marc:I enjoyed that chat immensely.
Marc:So, yeah, I got dates coming up.
Marc:You can go to WTFPod.com slash tour.
Marc:I'll be in Boulder and Denver this weekend.
Marc:And then the following week, I'm doing a bunch of shows in Portland.
Marc:I do not know where they're at ticket-wise.
Marc:I do know I had to add a show.
Marc:Boulder Theater, April 7th.
Marc:Paramount Theater, April 8th in Denver.
Marc:Then the Aladdin on April 21st and 22nd.
Marc:I believe there's two shows.
Marc:Yeah, checking to see if there's tickets for that second show.
Marc:And then I got Milwaukee, Madison, Minneapolis.
Marc:Coming up, Philly and D.C.
Marc:And that's the end of it.
Marc:The end of my stand-up career.
Marc:But yeah, wtfpod.com slash tour is where you can get that information.
Marc:What am I going to do?
Marc:Oh, it's also that.
Marc:That's powered by Squarespace.
Marc:I'm just going to throw in a gratuitous tag to our sponsor because that's one of the perks.
Marc:It's one of the perks.
Marc:I'll play a little guitar on the new monster.
Okay.
Thank you.
Marc:Boomer lives!