Episode 79 - Ben Stiller
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also... Eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:Okay, let's do this, what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fucking ears, what the fuck nicks I like.
Marc:I got to be honest with you right now.
Marc:I am sitting in my garage.
Marc:The door is open, which is unusual.
Marc:I usually kind of lock myself in here to do this.
Marc:But I'm waiting for Ben Stiller.
Marc:And it's kind of gotten me a little emotional, a little weird.
Marc:I've met Ben a few times.
Marc:We've had a couple of conversations.
Marc:We know each other.
Marc:We know of each other.
Marc:But let's be honest, he's the biggest fucking comedy star.
Marc:Certainly a household name.
Marc:And I didn't think he would necessarily do the show, but I thought if he did do the show...
Marc:that I would go to him I'd go to his office maybe to his house I don't know you know well anyway so after back and forth back and forth with his assistant a couple email exchanges with Ben he's coming here he's coming to my house and it brought up a lot of shit for me I don't you know I'm not even sure why my first thought was like you know Ben doesn't want me in his house I literally thought that I'm like Ben doesn't want me in his house
Marc:What is that?
Marc:And then I started thinking like, well, maybe Ben wants to come here because he wants to see how the other half lives, that kind of thing, which is ridiculous.
Marc:He doesn't know my life.
Marc:And then all of a sudden I'm like, well, I better tidy up.
Marc:I just sent my intern to get some water.
Marc:I got nothing to offer him.
Marc:Then I start thinking like, what if I offer him water from a pitcher that it's dirty?
Marc:Like he's going to come in the kitchen and everything's going to be dirty.
Marc:I was concerned that I have an ant problem in the garage.
Marc:I mean, I don't know what the hell happened.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:He's just a guy that is one of the biggest stars working.
Marc:But I'm sitting here freaking out.
Marc:Like, God, it's so stupid.
Marc:I was like, I felt like I needed to apologize for my life.
Marc:I mean, I've known of Ben and I've known Ben a long time.
Marc:I mean, I remember back when Dave Cross moved to Los Angeles and then he started doing the Ben Stewart show.
Marc:I started with Janine.
Marc:I knew Janine.
Marc:I knew Janine when she was sort of dating Ben when he was in New York producing a show, but I had no sense of anything.
Marc:I remember being jealous of him, but that doesn't seem to be there anymore.
Marc:I don't know what the hell happened, but I certainly felt this nervousness about my life because he's coming up here.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I'm just surprised.
Marc:I'm happy to spend the time with him and to talk to him, but I'm surprised at my reaction, especially the one where he doesn't want me in his house.
Marc:Maybe he doesn't.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's not like I would take anything, but...
Marc:Whew.
Marc:It's ridiculous.
Marc:It's very revealing.
Marc:It's very revealing that I have this thing in me that assumes that I'm not, you know, good enough or like, you know, I've somehow failed.
Marc:Whereas the truth of matter is I like my life.
Marc:I like my house.
Marc:I like my garage.
Marc:It's a little cluttered, but it's getting better.
Marc:I'm happy with my work.
Marc:But there's still that thing where it's like, you know, I feel like I need to apologize for it.
Marc:It's ridiculous.
Marc:I better get my shit together before he comes over.
Marc:I'll tell you that right now.
Marc:So don't you guys say anything to Ben about this conversation.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:Don't say anything to anybody that I'm having this weird, anxious, nervous, insecure, self-judging, crazy situation.
Marc:reaction to him coming over my house.
Marc:My house could fit in his living room, I bet.
Marc:But what's that got to do with anything?
Marc:Fuck.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:I know I'm going to bring this shit up with him.
Marc:Maybe if I talk it out here, I won't bring it up with him.
Marc:Alright, so let's just be cool.
Marc:Alright, everyone act cool when Ben is here.
Marc:... ...
Marc:I can't believe you're here, man.
Marc:Oh, I'm happy to be here.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:It's just, it's baffling to me because, you know, when we started talking a bit about doing the show and then I got in touch with your assistant and whatever, I was sort of amazed at what it brought up in me.
Guest:Really?
Marc:If I could start that way.
Marc:Well, like, I'm sitting here, I'm like, Penn Store's coming to my house.
Ha!
Guest:It's weird for me to think that that would bring up anything for anybody.
Marc:Well, I know.
Marc:I'm a little nuts.
Marc:So I'm thinking, I would have gone to his office with my rig and taped it, and now he's coming to my house.
Marc:And then I go to, do you not want me in his house?
Guest:That's probably true out of my own insecurity about my house.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Well, as long as it's that, not like, you know, I don't know, Marin, yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:It's because I feel like I'm always, I've always had issues about, you know, what my house should be and how I should.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Well, I thought that I, not only did I think I had to tidy up, I was thinking about, you know, putting on an addition.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Really quick?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then in here I had some ant issues, and I'm like, what if Ben doesn't like ants?
Marc:I love ants.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Because the other night I came in here, it was like a sequel to the Hellstrom Chronicle.
Marc:I mean, there was like thousands of ants, and then I started to envy their organization.
Marc:They're gone now, but you know when they get those ant parades?
Marc:Anyways.
Marc:You do have a spider happening, though.
Marc:Well, yeah, I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, it's still a garage.
Guest:Which my mom says is always good luck to have spiders.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Yeah, that's what she says.
Guest:Whenever there's a spider in the shower or something.
Marc:Don't kill it?
Marc:Don't kill it.
Marc:So in the garage here at the Cat Ranch is Ben Stiller, and I'm very happy you're here.
Marc:I think now that we've gotten out of this, I've shared my insecurity with you.
Marc:And mine.
Marc:And it goes right back.
Marc:There's a couple of things that are happening for me with you right now.
Marc:I saw Greenberg.
Marc:And I have this experience when I see all your movies.
Marc:It's like, holy fuck, he did it again.
Marc:How is he in such good shape?
Marc:That's what I hope to inspire.
Marc:But honestly, there's other things, but I'm just speaking as a guy who is self-involved and thinks about food a lot.
Marc:It may be an awkward way to start the interview.
Guest:I understand.
Marc:How much time do you put into exercise, honestly?
Guest:Well, you know what?
Guest:I'm not very consistent with it at all.
Guest:But for Greenberg, it was Noah asked me to either, he said he wanted to change my appearance and he didn't want me to look like I'd been exercising.
Guest:So I feel like I might have failed because he wanted me, I actually lost weight and didn't work out for that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You just wanted the gaunt.
Guest:He wanted it to be gaunt.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So he said either fat or gaunt.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:So you went with gaunt.
Guest:We decided to go with gaunt.
Guest:But also because I felt like I didn't want it to be fat, like pathetic fat.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or maybe it's just because I wanted to lose more weight.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It's a difficult character.
Marc:I mean, when I saw The Coming Attractions, there was a moment where I'm like, holy fuck, this is about me.
Marc:And then when I saw the movie, he was a little more disturbing than maybe our peers or people you know like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I felt like I had that reaction when I saw the movie.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Guest:That's about me?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:That it was about you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, that it was slightly more, the character was slightly more disturbing, I guess, than I thought of playing him.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:But I think that, you know, it was one of those things where I kind of trusted Noah to sort of have a tone that he felt was right for the movie and then just go with it.
Marc:But when you do a character like that, because a lot of the smaller movies that you've done in the independent films, they may not have been small, but Permanent Midnight and Your Friends and Neighbors and this film, it seems to me that your ability, I mean, you've got a pretty broad talent and it's pretty amazing.
Marc:And your ability to show up for the roles with a lot of yourself intact is sort of mind-blowing to me.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, with myself, I mean, I feel like that's what you have to do.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Especially, I mean, like, it's been a long time since those two movies and Greenberg for me, so it was actually, you know, I've been really wanting to work in a movie in that world, in that context.
Guest:So, you know, I kind of just felt like, okay, this is a chance to really, when we were doing it, I felt like, oh, this has been, it's been a long time since I've had this feeling of being connected to something like this and trusting the filmmaker like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Even with Tropic Thunder, there's a vulnerability that you have that is sort of rare in somebody who is as big a star as you are and as talented as you are that a lot of times I feel like your humanity is right fucking out there.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Do you feel that?
Guest:You know, I don't think about it that much because I honestly feel like it's whatever the role is or whatever the movie is that it has to somehow connect personally.
Guest:Right.
Guest:With you.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But don't you think every actor does that or strives for that?
Marc:I guess.
Marc:When I think about you, I've known you a long time.
Marc:We've talked before here and there, but not in depth about anything.
Marc:I remember before the Ben Stiller show, when you were doing a show in New York, because I knew Janine then, and you knew Janine.
Marc:Then all of a sudden, there was a Ben Stiller show, and then you've built this amazing body of work that went on IMDb.
Marc:It's just mind-blowing.
Marc:But the thing that I always find amazing is that you're not a clown, and you can do a lot of things, and that your sense of physical timing is impeccable.
Marc:And it just seems to me that unlike other film comedians, that you have this broad emotional range that shows up in all the roles.
Marc:But I guess what I'm saying is how close...
Marc:When you do something like Greenberg, we're all a little narcissistic, we're all a little selfish, we're a little full of anxiety, but that guy was clearly detached beyond the point that you or I would be.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But how much of you shows up in that thing?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, again, I feel like it all has to come out of something that you personally connect with.
Guest:I mean, for me, that guy was specifically written by Noah, and I understood the places where I could connect with issues that he had that might have been a little bit more exaggerated in certain places.
Guest:Other places, I could just connect with it in a real way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But his circumstances in his life are different than mine.
Guest:So, and there are people who I know that really, I felt like, oh, that guy is like somebody I know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, in my life.
Marc:Right, he was a very familiar guy.
Guest:Yeah, and elements of his personality where he could, you know, he's able to judge people.
Guest:I mean, I feel like it was all things that I understood on a certain level, some more viscerally than others.
Guest:And then the parts that I didn't really connect with as much, though I saw in someone else,
Guest:I kind of had to get involved with that connection with the people, you know, trying to understand that more.
Guest:And that was just – so it was sort of a combination.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:And there's people I know really close to me in my life, one person in particular that I really connected with in terms of this person.
Guest:And that – it actually ended up giving me more of a feeling of empathy for that person because I was sort of forced to have to understand, like, how does somebody –
Guest:How is somebody like that?
Marc:How they stifle themselves with their own emotional blind side.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the pain of that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, so I guess I felt like there was a connection with that feeling, the pain underneath of that.
Guest:And, you know, I don't know.
Guest:It's hard because then, like I said, when I saw the movie, it was like a different experience than doing it.
Guest:Because it is like, you know, the guy is pretty disjointed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it was really, for me, I felt like having to get to try to know what that person's outlook on life, where they were coming from without sort of looking at it from the outside, but like from the inside, was helpful to me just as a person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To sort of have an empathy for that, for people who you can go, well, what's your problem?
Guest:Well, that's interesting.
Marc:Come on, get over it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Come on, pull it together.
Guest:And obviously, we all would if we could.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:And that's interesting.
Marc:So that empathy, because in show business, that character, there's a lot of them.
Marc:That's somebody that had these dreams, that had maybe an initial wave of success, and then just for whatever reason, just crashed and burned.
Marc:Because in that movie, you have a guy that had some success in music,
Marc:But, you know, for excuses, I don't know how you connected it emotionally, you know, he pulled out.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you see that all the time.
Marc:I mean, you see that with our peers.
Marc:I mean, I think I've been that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And because of your work ethic, the one thing I'm learning about people that are successful in this industry is you work your ass off.
Marc:I do a twice a week podcast and I'm overwhelmed.
Right.
Guest:Yeah, but there's a flip side to that, too.
Guest:I mean, the working, working, working can also be a way to not stop and feel, too.
Guest:Oh, of course, yeah.
Guest:And that's something I've learned over the years.
Guest:Like, oh, when I actually stop...
Guest:There's a life around you?
Guest:Yeah, there's a life around you.
Guest:There's also kind of chaos, and there's not order necessarily.
Guest:There's a real simplicity in working that I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily, but having kids and learning that life doesn't just sort of happen on its own if you just go off and work all the time has sort of...
Guest:you know, forced me into figuring out, well, what's the balance?
Guest:And I'm trying to figure that out still.
Marc:Yeah, well, I have to assume that, and I don't want to be presumptuous, but I have to assume that given, you know, what I know of your parents and their careers and how they, you know, present themselves on stage, that chaos was not unusual.
Marc:No.
Guest:No, I mean, it was a very intense working situation they had with each other growing up because they had a comedy team and they were having to write and create these, you know, sketches and commercials and their act and go out and do it.
Guest:And I think that was incredible pressure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And being in a show business family, you know, let's get to that in a second.
Marc:I think what I wanted to ask you about in terms of being empathetic for people that have that sort of self-sabotaging, self-righteous narcissism.
Marc:I mean, what do you think in your own career and from people that you know?
Marc:Why do you think that people, because we know talented people that have just sort of stopped.
Marc:Get in their own way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you get any insight?
Marc:Oh, stopped, yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, stopped or just stopped themselves, get in their own way, certainly, but on some level and remain there spinning.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Blaming everybody else.
Marc:Did you get any insight into that?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think the thing in Greenberg is he's a guy who really had these ideals and an ego and really felt like he really knew something, knew what he wanted, knew what it was about.
Guest:And it's that thing when you're young where you just don't understand that you're not always going to have your whole life in front of you and you're going to have all these opportunities.
Guest:And when you're in a moment where things are happening, you don't know that it's not always going to be like that.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, especially if stuff happens at a young age.
Marc:And also that you're going to have to work.
Guest:Right.
Marc:That to follow up any initial success creatively, that can't be it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and judging yourself against that or whatever you think about can't be it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think that, you know, it's that sort of like in your head that you don't allow yourself that...
Guest:You know, the perspective on that, you don't have it.
Guest:I mean, no one should be expected to have that perspective, you know, unless you just have this preternatural sort of sense of, oh, this is how it's going to be.
Guest:So I think he sort of didn't realize that.
Guest:And, you know, and then just life sort of happened, you know, and it happened and happened.
Guest:And it's that way you can delude yourself and be in denial or whatever it is to get through the day.
Guest:And, you know, he was just getting through the day and living, and slowly things just sort of, you know, went away and changed.
Guest:I mean, to me, it goes to a very basic fear in show business where, you know, you never know when it's all going to dry up.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And I very much, you know, can identify with that feeling.
Guest:I think it's an actor's thing.
Guest:You know, you don't know where the next job is coming from.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:And then all of a sudden you look around and you go, oh my God, you know, it's not happening.
Marc:It's gone.
Marc:So the way that that character protected himself like that is just to avoid that entirely.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And he got very critical of the world and sort of put himself outside of it, which I think we all kind of do.
Guest:Or maybe I'm just saying this.
Guest:In a way, you have to go, well, I don't want to be a part of this.
Guest:I don't want to be a part of that.
Guest:And I'm happy doing what I'm doing.
Guest:And if you are happy doing what you're doing, great.
Guest:But sometimes you have to sort of create that because it's not an option for you.
Marc:Yeah, and I think that's true, and I think it's an amazing thing that you acknowledge that fear, but because your need to and also your professional ethic is to stay open and keep creating.
Guest:That's the balance is then also not to get cynical and to be able to stay open to it, and I think that's the big challenge.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And I mean, and you've been doing it for years because I can't, it's amazing to me that if I look at the cast of the Ben Stiller Show and I look at, you know, all the dudes that you had on board there, Judd Apatow, Bob Odenkirk, Dino Stematopoulos, and Dave Cross.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Janine, Andy Dick, that all those people were insanely talented.
Marc:Some of them surfaced more than others, but all of them have continued working in show business.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That the creativity there from the beginning of that, did you know, I mean, how did that thing happen?
Marc:Because it was sort of an interesting story.
Marc:It was almost like in the late 60s in the film industry where Hollywood didn't know what to do anymore, and you came in with a new comedic idea.
Right.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I think we all felt like we were just – I mean, I've been with Jeff Kahn.
Guest:We've been trying to get a sketch show going from MTV because we've been doing a show on MTV, this little sort of half sketch show, half showing videos called The Ben Stiller Show.
Guest:That came out of us doing an act together.
Guest:We sort of did this sort of half-assed live act in New York at the China Club in the late 80s.
Guest:Because I just had always been going back and forth and doing little parts in movies, wanting to be a director.
Guest:And when I wasn't getting work as an actor, going off and making little shorts or parodies.
Guest:You were directing some stage shows as well, right?
Guest:Colin Quinn did a one-man show at the Tamarin Theater.
Guest:That was like the only thing I really ever directed.
Marc:Which is now the UCB.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:But, you know, I was just sort of trying to figure out how to keep busy and do what I wanted to do, which was direct and act.
Guest:And I was kind of trying to figure it out, I think.
Guest:And sometimes I'd get work as an actor, and then other times I would just be sort of trying to keep things going.
Guest:And then Saturday Night Live was something I always wanted to do, and Jeff and I met in L.A.
Guest:I was staying at John Cusack's house in L.A.
Guest:He was shooting Say Anything.
Guest:I met him because we did this movie called Hot Pursuit, where my dad and I played the bad guys who played drug runners.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:which we never did again.
Marc:But you have worked with your father a few times.
Guest:Yes, I have.
Guest:So I met Jeff through John, and Jeff and I started just riffing on ideas, and then we moved in together, and then we started doing this little live show where we did characters, and then MTV gave us a chance to do something, this thing called It's Your Hour, where you could just do whatever you want for no money.
Guest:And we did that, and then they gave us a shot at this little...
Guest:half video show where he did videos and did sketches and sort of like a Larry Sanders-esque idea of me having a show in behind the scenes of the show and then that led to this Fox situation where Fox wanted to develop a sketch show and that took about two years and we didn't get anywhere
Guest:And then I met Judd Apatow in line at an Elvis Costello unplugged taping.
Marc:Really?
Marc:That's where you met him?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was a stand-up, and he was writing for Jim Carrey.
Guest:And Shandling, right?
Guest:And Shandling and Tom Arnold.
Guest:In fact, I just saw Tom Arnold a couple nights ago.
Guest:He's very visible these days.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Tom is out and about.
Guest:And Judd wrote his special, his HBO special, and he gave me a little part in that.
Guest:And then Judd and I started talking about the sketch show and the thing I've been working on with Jeff.
Guest:And he said, oh, what?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It was one of those things where we just met and we thought, hey, maybe we could do something together.
Guest:And he was doing the Young Comedian special.
Guest:Janine was doing that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I remember going to Phoenix with them to tape the Young Comedian special.
Guest:I think Spade was in that.
Guest:Yeah, I think that one.
Guest:It was Spade, Janine, maybe Stoller.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe Andy Kindler.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was and then I started hanging out at the improv and watching those guys do their thing.
Guest:And it was, I guess, what, 1990 ish, I guess.
Guest:Something like that.
Marc:It's interesting how it works.
Marc:So that really it is about, you know, just hanging out with people sometimes.
Guest:It was totally about hanging out.
Guest:I mean, I think we were all just kind of going, okay, well, you know, what are you doing?
Guest:What are we doing here?
Guest:And then you redefined comedy.
Guest:Well, I think we were just sort of ripping off SCTV is what we were doing.
Guest:We loved SCTV.
Guest:We thought, oh, let's do something like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, Albert Brooks.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, we wanted to be Albert Brooks.
Guest:And we just sort of...
Guest:That was the influence, really.
Guest:And we were just trying to get on the air.
Guest:And then we did a pilot that started out with a story of me being Ben Stiller moving to Los Angeles to have a show on Fox with these little short sketches in between.
Guest:And they kept on rejecting the pilot because the wraparounds, the story was pretty lame.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And we reshot the pilot three times, and every time in between the sketches got shorter and shorter, and then finally it just became me just sort of introducing the sketch.
Guest:So we gave up on the whole sort of backstory.
Marc:But you also were able to do these amazing characters, which is something I'm envious of because I don't really know how to do it.
Marc:It takes every bit of energy for me to maintain whatever character I've decided to live in.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And when I see other people do characters, to me, it's just, it's mind-blowing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think the range, like the O'Pooder Toot sketch is one of my favorite sketches still.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because it was deep, it was interesting.
Guest:Right.
Marc:It said something about franchises, it had some satirical elements to it.
Guest:Yeah, sort of a Soylent Green sketch.
Marc:Yeah, and I thought it was hilarious and it was resonant with me.
Guest:Well, that was fun for us also because I remember we did that.
Guest:It was very near the end of the show.
Guest:I think we might have known we were canceled already.
Guest:And it was like a little movie.
Guest:We got to do a little movie.
Guest:And that was what really appealed to me as a director.
Guest:It was like, oh, let's just shoot this.
Guest:And it was like one day.
Guest:I think it was like 11 pages, way too long.
Guest:And we just shot the whole thing in one day and did it like a little film.
Guest:And that was the fun part.
Marc:So that sketch was a breakthrough for you in terms of knowing that you wanted to direct films?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, well, it was just like, yeah, approaching it like a little movie, like a little short.
Guest:And that was definitely, you know, what I enjoyed doing on the show.
Guest:I enjoyed directing.
Guest:I enjoyed working with all the people on the show because I thought they were so funny.
Guest:It was fun to – as a director, I always enjoyed that, more working with the actors.
Guest:And you can work with other people well.
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:No, but I mean, you do it.
Guest:I mean, like – I always feel it's good to have a lot of funny people around you.
Guest:Yeah, to make you seem funnier.
Guest:Me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, it's always been, to me, that's like, definitely, please.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, bring them.
Guest:Yeah, have them around.
Guest:And how long did before Reality Bites?
Guest:Well, what happened was I had gotten the script for Reality Bites while we were still working on the show and started working with Helen Childress, the writer on it, who she'd written sort of her life story from being from Texas.
Guest:And then the show got canceled, and then the movie got a go-ahead sort of simultaneously.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was kind of just fortunate that I kind of got a job after that.
Marc:Because that movie, like I tour with Janine sometimes, and I think that it's one of those weird situations where it seemed to define a generation, where the timing was awesome.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you feel that at that moment that there was some sort of, like you were in the crucible of what became this Gen X definition of the new generation of kids?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it seemed like around that time, singles came out in that book, Generation X, Douglas Coburn.
Guest:Within it, it was just sort of like making this movie about Helen's life.
Guest:But I think there was an awareness that it was trying to sort of capture an experience that was happening.
Guest:I don't think we had any idea that it would be sort of like...
Guest:such a thing, you know?
Guest:And the movie didn't really make any money.
Guest:It was just kind of like, you know, it just, I think it became like, the title became something that people like to use in articles, and it worked as a headline.
Guest:But it was, but doing it, you know, at the time was, I had a great time doing it.
Guest:I recently saw some footage, like behind the scenes footage of when we were shooting it.
Guest:And I was laughing just because I feel like we all thought we really knew what we were doing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, so cocky.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, you look back at yourself and you go, like, what the hell was I thinking?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Like, I'm a kid.
Guest:I'm a kid.
Guest:And I'm there joking.
Guest:I saw this footage of me joking behind the scenes with the crew.
Guest:And it's like all these crew guys who obviously just don't, you know, they've just been through this a lot.
Guest:And I'm, like, making little jokes behind the scenes.
Guest:Like, oh, and this is a camera.
Guest:Ooh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I look like such an asshole.
Marc:Well, you have to do that.
Guest:You can't be aware of that stuff.
Guest:You're not aware of just sort of the brashness, I think, when you're younger, which is obviously necessary to be able to go out and say, okay, I'm going to do this.
Marc:Did you have any idea at that time that your career would be what it is?
Guest:I mean, did you just want to work or were you like, I'm going to be the guy?
Guest:I really was thinking and always thought of it in terms of directing.
Guest:And it was a strange thing because I would go through periods where I was not getting any work as an actor, but I would have a movie to direct.
Guest:And in Reality Bites, I gave myself a role in it because Helen and I started improvising this character that she said, oh, you should play the guy.
Guest:I was like, all right, yeah, I'll play the guy.
Guest:Sure, I got to do that.
Guest:She didn't have to twist my arm.
Guest:But it wasn't like I was getting hired away to do other movies as an actor.
Guest:So it was a strange thing where sometimes I was getting work as a director, sometimes getting work as an actor.
Guest:And I always thought of it as being a director.
Guest:So I didn't think I'd have the acting opportunities.
Marc:So you really set out to be a director.
Guest:Yeah, but I think I was conflicted because I liked being an actor also, but it was really always, for me, making movies was always the most enjoyable thing.
Marc:Yeah, and now it seems that... I guess there's a question that's sort of in my mind because it seems like now in...
Marc:after you guys all paid your dues and you made yourselves and a bunch of other people money and you entertain people that there's really like two or three comedy camps in terms of film comedy right like there seems to be the the mckay ferrell camp the apatow camp and the stiller camp now
Marc:We have tribal fires.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:Well, that's my question.
Marc:I mean, are you all still peers?
Marc:Do you acknowledge that that is really happening, that there really are three camps, or am I misreading it?
Guest:I've never seen it broken down into three camps.
Marc:Well, I think there was a Vaughn, you know, uh, uh, he directed.
Marc:Favreau?
Marc:Yeah, camp, but they seem to be doing other things.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Am I wrong?
Guest:No, I don't think you're wrong when you break it down like that.
Guest:I think the thing that's sort of acknowledged is that a reality is, and I've talked to Judd about this, is that people become...
Guest:quote-unquote successful and all of a sudden there's a reality to the world of just people working and doing their thing.
Guest:So it becomes like you gravitate to where you're comfortable working, right?
Guest:and people that you're comfortable working with.
Guest:I love working with Judd.
Guest:We always would come together and work on something and then go apart and then come back together.
Guest:Like we did the show and then we sort of drifted apart for a few years.
Guest:Then we did Cable Guy together and then drifted apart.
Guest:It always seemed like we came back together.
Guest:It seems like now there's been a long time that we haven't worked together directly.
Guest:But I feel like there's always the desire to do that.
Guest:And with Will, you know, Will and I have come together and then gone off.
Guest:It's not like,
Guest:And that sort of stupid bullshit frat pack name that got... The Sandler Crew?
Guest:Well, no, I've been thrown into that.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, where it's like Will, sort of an artificial group, because again, like a name that rhymed, that worked for... Right, right, sure.
Guest:That never really existed.
Guest:I think people just end up going down their path, and it seems like you want to kind of do your thing,
Guest:uh but it's not intentional that we don't that like that that will and adam don't do as many films with us i think it's just that they're doing their thing and well yeah that's what that and i think once you guys acquired the power to produce yes that you know you're all production elements you all and and it's yes right right yeah and sandler definitely you know like i mean madison has done like a very you know very productive and very specific thing and
Guest:And Will and Adam do very specific things.
Guest:And I think sometimes the bullshit of the business gets in the way a little bit.
Marc:But you guys are all friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Well, I mean, we're friends.
Marc:No, no, I know show business friends.
Marc:I mean, you know each other.
Marc:We wave at each other.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you can call Will and go, what's up?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I'm literally seeing Will tomorrow.
Guest:For what, lunch?
Guest:We're having lunch tomorrow.
Guest:Is that a funny thing?
Guest:He's one of those guys.
Guest:Will, to me, is one of the funniest people on the planet.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:So I can watch him in anything.
Guest:Just watch him eat.
Guest:I'll enjoy watching him eat.
Guest:But it's a real thing you're saying, which is just naturally people sort of separate.
Guest:But I also feel like there's a real...
Guest:goodwill between all of us and people support each other too.
Guest:But like the budgets and what people get paid and all of that stuff does get in the way of people just coming together like we did 15 or 20 years ago or whatever and saying, hey, let's do something.
Guest:I'm going to come over.
Marc:That's why when you came over, I'm like, Ben's coming over.
Marc:When was the last time you did this?
Marc:I'm going to come over.
Guest:Well, I mean, it definitely doesn't happen as much.
Guest:I also think you get older, you get families, all that stuff.
Guest:But you make a good point, I think, which is that it's sort of like people get pushed apart, and I think you have to fight to sort of overcome that.
Marc:Well, I'm just happy that there's no meetings in the Stiller camp saying, like, you know, Apatow's going down.
Marc:This movie's going to bury him.
Guest:No, I mean, that doesn't really happen.
Guest:I think naturally, to be perfectly honest, everybody sort of is aware that we're all out there doing our thing.
Guest:Comic.
Guest:And I think comics have always had a tough world all the time.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But you want to, I think you have to fight against that.
Guest:I really feel like you have to fight against that sort of, you know, those instincts to be supportive of each other.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's hard.
Guest:I mean, it's hard.
Guest:You know, Judd and I had, because Judd and I go way back.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I do consider us really good friends.
Guest:Right.
Guest:but uh we don't see each other all the time but when we come together it's like friends who've known each other for a long time yeah but like a couple years ago we had movies that were out very close to each other uh-huh uh had release dates that were out very close to each other and that became a huge thing that because the studio became us having to deal with our own feelings about each other and not and not wanting to get into you know not wanting to affect the other person's movie but then also these two giant studios which had their agendas too and then you start to realize who
Guest:in charge yeah and it becomes a it's a very tough thing to negotiate it to navigate a friendship through and what how'd that how'd that pan out i mean were there phone calls or yeah there were phone calls and you know and we had i think we had to figure it out ourselves personally through all through because we both you know i think cared about our movies having you just in the basic the concern was like if we're both opening comedies up within a week or so it's not good it's not good for either you know for the for either and what and what eventually happened did they go ahead
Guest:We separated by a couple weeks.
Guest:There was enough space.
Guest:But what I'm saying is just that type of experience is a strange sort of experience for two old friends to have to go through.
Marc:What were those calls like, I got nothing to do with this?
Guest:Well, that's the thing.
Guest:That's where you have to really be honest and say, hey, this is... Out of my control?
Guest:Well, but the reality is for both of us, we have a certain amount of input where it's not totally out of our control, you know?
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:But then there are these giant corporations that do, you know, no matter how much, you know, control you would have over a project, are going to have agendas for their, you know, their hundreds, millions of dollars that they have riding on these things.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:So that kind of thing is just a situation you never in a million years picture yourself being in, you know, 15 years earlier.
Guest:And how did it end up?
Guest:It ended up that it was a little bit bumpy for both of us, but I think we came out of it okay, because both movies did okay.
Guest:Thank God.
Guest:Yeah, thank God.
Guest:But, you know, I think we both learned a lot from it, too.
Guest:About who you guys have become and where you are.
Guest:Yeah, and never to have movies open that close to each other.
Guest:But we got through it.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:That's the important thing.
Marc:We got through it.
Marc:That's amazing.
Marc:So Will Ferrell, see, this is a good example.
Marc:You're going to have lunch with him.
Marc:And sure, I'd like to talk to him.
Marc:But I feel like I know you for some reason.
Marc:And when I watch Will, he's the funniest guy.
Marc:I mean, he's one of the funniest people in the world.
Marc:But I don't feel like I get a sense of who he is.
Marc:I wouldn't know what to talk to him about.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:That's interesting, yeah.
Marc:Because I'd be sitting there with him, and I'd be like, I wouldn't even know where to start.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because I get a sense, for some reason, I always have, and this is like even... I mean, you did Permanent Midnight.
Marc:You did a lot of roles that weren't these broad comedy roles.
Marc:And as I said before, you always seem to bring yourself to it.
Marc:And I think that it's interesting that it started out that you really wanted to be a director, and now you're this huge comedy star.
Marc:But when I talk about you...
Marc:I think that, you know, I always find myself saying that you don't realize the intelligence of it, and you don't realize that you're a very thoughtful guy.
Marc:And the stuff that, like Tropic Thunder, I think, is one of the best Hollywood satires ever.
Marc:Oh, thanks.
Marc:And I had to watch it a couple of times to really see that there are some jokes and there are some nuances in there that are going to be lost on a lot of people.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But nonetheless, you know, you really took on the monster that feeds you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Guest:But, I mean, that never was an issue for me.
Guest:To me, that's actually where I've always gravitated.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Then Story Show did that as well.
Guest:That's always where I've found the humor that I've enjoyed, where you are able to make fun of this ridiculous world.
Guest:and how caught up we all get in it, and be able to look at ourselves and see that.
Marc:But I thought that thing did it in such a way.
Marc:I didn't feel like, obviously, a threat to the industry is decided.
Marc:That's decided upon whether or not it makes a lot of money.
Marc:So on some level, you were protected there because the movie did well.
Guest:It did well enough, yeah.
Guest:When you break it down, I think the real chance that was taken was by the studio to make a movie that was that...
Guest:You know, that big budget movie that was about a subject matter that historically has not really ever been successful at the box office.
Marc:When they decided that, was their decision based primarily on you being in it and Jack being in it and Downey?
Marc:I mean, were they like, well, how can we lose?
Guest:I think, no, you know, I honestly think it was a unique situation at a studio, DreamWorks, that it was not, you know, has changed in the last couple of years since then.
Guest:I think it was a moment in time.
Guest:I don't think that movie could get made today at that budget.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because everything has changed so radically in the last couple of years.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's a very, you know, DreamWorks is a very personal place in terms of a studio, unlike, you know, Sony or... They're all...
Guest:These corporations run these places, but DreamWorks was basically Steven Spielberg and David Geffen and Jeffrey Katzenberg started it.
Guest:So it is a strange situation where you go to Steven Spielberg and he has to say, yes, I want to make this movie.
Guest:And if he hadn't said, yes, I want to make that movie, then it wouldn't have gotten made.
Guest:and he liked it he liked it and decided to take a chance with i mean it's i honestly don't know if that that could happen in another situation were there moments where you were like coppola in the tropics where you're like i'm making the biggest disaster ever there definitely it was you know when we got around to shooting the end of the movie with all the stuff blowing up and that last sort of you know um you know escape there and we were over budget and we had to cut things and
Guest:You know, it was like the whole scene was basically like the, you know, the guys get in this truck and they ride down this truck and the truck gets blown up and then they run over this bridge and they get to this helicopter.
Guest:So it was like we shot it in sequence and it took like, you know, it was like two, three weeks to just get down that road.
Guest:And there were just times during that period where it's like, are we ever going to get down this road?
Guest:You know, because there were so many things that had to happen along the way.
Guest:We had to blow up, the car has to blow up, and then the bridge has to blow up.
Guest:I mean, like, literally had to blow up a bridge.
Guest:And, you know, the reality is when you get to screening the movie for an audience, you know, an audience, it just was such a lesson for me.
Guest:It's like, you go to the test screening and it's a comedy.
Guest:And people go to a comedy, they want to do one thing, they want to laugh.
Guest:And if they're not laughing, it's not happening.
Guest:And I realize all those explosions and all that stuff, for us as filmmakers and people who are psyched about the movie and different things going on, ultimately, the audience just wants to laugh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so you'd see these giant explosions, and you'd go, and that bridge, we built that bridge, and we blew it, and it took months and months.
Guest:And nobody really cares that much until there's the joke of Jack Black going, like, my ass, my ass.
Guest:That's where the...
Guest:You know, that's what people want to see.
Guest:So there's a lot of money and a lot of fire that went into an ass joke.
Guest:And you realize that that's what, you know, it's the context, I think.
Guest:But you knew on that movie that you were operating at a couple of different levels.
Guest:Yeah, we were, yeah.
Guest:I mean, there was a really delicate balance.
Guest:There was a goal to try to, you know, the idea was like, yeah, if we can have this thing be sort of satirical, but also, you know, kind of be, you're invested in the characters too.
Guest:It's amazing.
Guest:And then also have some action and all that.
Guest:But, you know, again, I think sometimes, you know, you do these things like, you're talking about like seeing a movie and then you look and you go, wow, that came off differently than I thought, like a character.
Guest:It's the same thing when you're doing, you're invested in something, you're doing it.
Guest:You have these ideas and these thoughts, and then you can go back and look at it and go, wow, what were we thinking, really?
Guest:Because there really are some crazy, now when I look at that movie, I go, there's some ridiculous plot twists.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:Well, just the idea that a character would stay in, like an actor would stay.
Guest:Well, no, like an actor would, yeah, well, that.
Marc:The Stockholm Syndrome.
Guest:Yeah, the Stockholm Syndrome.
Guest:Or that Downey's character would stay in character.
Marc:But that's hilarious.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, it's ridiculous.
Guest:But that assumption to have a reality that's based in that, you kind of have to sell yourself on it when you're doing it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then in retrospect, you go, well, that's kind of ridiculous.
Guest:But I think as long as you sort of invest yourself in the reality of the movie and say, okay, we're going to have a consistent reality and it might be sort of heightened.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you can really find that.
Guest:I think it's always about no matter what the tone is, just finding the real moment within it.
Marc:It's a beautifully written thing.
Guest:Trying to find that.
Marc:And to do satire.
Marc:Because watching it two or three times, I'll watch it every time it comes on, it runs pretty deep in its attack and also in its investigation of fame, of the personality of somebody who is famous, and the movie industry in general, and marketing and everything else.
Marc:I mean, there's a couple of scenes in that movie that I think are... And they might be different than what other people like.
Marc:But the scene where...
Marc:where your agent thinks you killed a hooker, it's a hilarious beat.
Marc:And the hilarious thing about it is the way Matthew played it.
Marc:Was that like, without even missing a beat, it's like, okay, as if it had happened before.
Guest:He has a plan.
Guest:He's dealt with it before.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Fucking great.
Guest:Well, that's sort of, yeah, that's Justin, you know, Justin Theroux, who wrote it together with Etan Cohen.
Guest:And, you know, that tone is basically the idea of like, you know, underneath everything in Hollywood, there really is.
Guest:And that's not so far from reality.
Marc:Right, and the fact that he would get hung up on the TiVo and his big payoff.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, that's something I've dealt with with agents a lot over the years, where it's like they can't get something done for you that's like get you a job.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, basically.
Guest:Right, but they can get you a swag bag.
Guest:They're going to focus on something that they can do, or they're going to make a whole big deal about something that they're making happen, because ultimately it's just because they can't get you what you want.
Marc:Right, sure, and they want you to keep working with them.
Guest:crazy plate spinning.
Guest:And for me, agents have always been an interesting area because I just think that that world is such a crazy sort of reality that they live in.
Marc:Well, the agent that you did on the Ben Stiller show was also amazing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That was sort of the impetus for that character.
Marc:Well, I think Matthew McConaughey was less creepy than the guy that you created for the Stiller.
Marc:But they all seem to have some sort of odd thing missing in their personality.
Guest:Agents.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And managers as well.
Marc:I think it's called a conscience and the ability to differentiate between truth and lying.
Marc:And I'm not saying that in a negative way because obviously it's part of their job.
Guest:And they have to have an incredibly thick skin too because they just deal with so much rejection in terms of what they're putting out there all the time.
Guest:and they seem not to... They have to enjoy that.
Guest:To me, sometimes there are days when I really have trouble making a phone call.
Guest:I have to talk to somebody.
Guest:Do you ever have that feeling where you just go, I don't know if I can... I'm having it now.
Guest:You know that where you just go, I just don't know if I can really get it up to really just...
Guest:engage with somebody i don't know maybe yeah well there's avenues now you can text there's a lot of right exactly to detach yeah but like agents love that they love getting on the phone that's their thing you know what i mean they want to get on the phone and have a confrontation with somebody or get somebody to try to do something they don't and that's a different personality that i that i don't connect oh yeah i i'm not i'm not that guy i feel uh it makes me uncomfortable
Guest:But I look at my agent now, I'm amazed at what he does and how he does it, because he really enjoys it.
Guest:Well, he's apparently doing a good job.
Marc:The other thing in Tropic Thunder that was mind-blowing was that whole bit of business.
Marc:The insecurity that your character had...
Marc:in relation to the real actor in the movie.
Marc:And then that whole bit of business with the drug compound.
Marc:And it was a very weird movie.
Marc:There's a section of that movie where the identity thing and the Oscar and the like, who am I really?
Marc:And then everybody starts to break down.
Marc:And then it turns out that the only guy that's really got his shit together in the moment is the drug addict.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But, I mean, those are real questions.
Marc:And I guess I want to know, in your darker moments, I mean, do you find yourself in a place where you're like, you know, what does this all mean?
Marc:Who am I really?
Marc:I mean, am I... I mean, sure.
Guest:I mean, I feel like all that stuff, you know, for me, that's why it's in the movie.
Guest:I feel like that's, you know...
Guest:you have to put in stuff that you can somehow identify with.
Guest:I felt like I was doing that, doing the movie with Robert Downey.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it was so funny to me because I felt like I was, I found myself watching him do this character and he was just in some groove that was just so, like, right off the bat.
Guest:I found myself, as Ben Stiller, watching Robert Downey going, how the fuck?
Guest:How the fuck is he doing that?
Guest:And watching him while he's doing scenes with him, wanting to figure out, like, what's his process?
Guest:Let me see how he's doing it.
Guest:Which is exactly what was going on in the movie.
Guest:But that's just the reality of actors.
Guest:You can be totally in awe of an actor and at the same time also be envious because you're like, oh, fuck, why can't I do that?
Guest:The great thing for me as a director is...
Guest:As a director, it's a great gift when you have actors who are that good because you can just enjoy what they're doing, encourage them, guide them a little bit.
Guest:But once they're doing their thing, you have this great feeling of like, wow, that gets to be in my movie.
Guest:And I get to help in some way, whatever little way.
Guest:But really, it's that enjoyment of actors.
Guest:So I think that's always sort of helped me get over my own actor envy issues in the movie.
Marc:And also, I guess when you're director and you're having actor envy, you've got to sort of deliberate between where's my next directorial choice coming from?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:For sure.
Marc:Am I doing it to honor my actor ego?
Guest:Well, that's real.
Guest:But that's actually a real thing when you're directing an actor.
Guest:Because you want to be there for the other actors as a director.
Guest:That's so important.
Guest:Because you know as an actor yourself, when the director is – you need the director.
Guest:You need the director.
Guest:You need that I that you trust.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But then as an actor, you also want to be sort of giving yourself a shot to do what you need to do.
Guest:It's a very strange situation.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:But you can't do it without the support of the other actors.
Guest:And that's the thing, like, for me with Jack, because I've known Jack for a long time, and Downey I didn't know before in the movie.
Guest:But, you know, the fact that those guys, everybody in the cast was sort of supportive of what the process was, because otherwise they could just kill you as an actor-director.
Guest:In a lot of ways.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, if they're not there for you, you know.
Guest:So it was an interesting process, but it was really fun.
Guest:I mean, I had more fun doing that movie than I had in years.
Guest:It shows, man.
Marc:I mean, it's a movie that has to be rewatched.
Marc:Yeah, that's good.
Marc:So you've known Jack a long time, and I guess a lot of people want to know what happened with Heat Vision and Jack.
Marc:The pilot, it was a pilot?
Marc:It was a pilot, yes.
Guest:It was a failed pilot for Fox about 11 years ago.
Marc:But I've heard people talk about it.
Marc:I don't know the history of it.
Guest:It was basically – it was just a script that we got from Rob Schraub and Dan Harmon.
Guest:Dan now runs a show called Community, and Rob Schraub's a really – I think he's directed Sarah Silverman's show.
Guest:Yeah, very, very talented guys who came from Milwaukee and had an underground comic book called Scud, the disposable assassin that they'd written.
Guest:And they came out and they were I think they were developing a show.
Guest:They got some deal and they got frustrated with the development process and went off and wrote Heat Vision and Jack in two days as just sort of like to vent their energy.
Guest:And it ended up being something Fox wanted to do.
Guest:uh and so we did it you know we it was jack black is this uh astronaut named jack austin sort of a steve austin guy who flew too close to the sun and his brain expands during the day and he becomes the smartest man in the universe and then at night he's a normal guy and his best friend got turned into a motorcycle uh by at nasa which is an evil organization run by the late ron silver who was undercover as ron silver the actor but was really the evil head of nasa
Guest:And Owen Wilson was the voice of his best friend who was a motorcycle and got zapped into a motorcycle.
Guest:So it's them going on the road every week.
Guest:I can take no credit for it.
Guest:When I read it, though, the tone of it to me was so great because it was really taking these elements of Six Million Dollar Man and Knight Rider and every 70s, 80s show that we loved watching and kind of taking it seriously enough in a way that you actually...
Guest:It wasn't just making fun of the characters, but there was a real sort of care for this relationship between these two guys.
Guest:And so we just went off and did it and then didn't get picked up.
Guest:Very quickly didn't get picked up.
Guest:Really?
Marc:They were like, what is this?
Marc:Because people didn't understand it?
Guest:They didn't get it?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I literally just produced a pilot for Fox that didn't get picked up.
Guest:Was that the one with Whitney?
Guest:Yes, the station.
Guest:Again, I thought it was great.
Guest:It was directed by David Wayne.
Guest:Just a lot of really funny people.
Guest:Justin Bartha, John Goodman.
Guest:A very interesting idea about a CIA station.
Guest:in Central America that doesn't get any action.
Guest:It's written by a guy named Kevin Napier because all the action's in the Middle East now.
Guest:So it was just sort of this slow, sleepy CIA station.
Guest:Anyway, what the process is of how these network people decide.
Guest:I mean, I can kind of on the surface see what they go for, but when it comes down to it in a room like them saying yes or no, I don't.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:I think that if somebody with enough power gets frightened and they can't blame the possible failure of the project on someone else, they nix it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That could be true.
Guest:I mean, we also had a turnover at Fox during the process.
Guest:We had it for a year.
Guest:That's happened to me every time I've had anything in development.
Guest:That's what happened in the Ben Stiller show, too, on Fox.
Guest:We got canceled when Sandy Grushow took over the network.
Marc:Yeah, I had to deal with them when he was there, I believe.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's not my world.
Marc:I don't know that I can handle the rejection as readily as other people because when you're a comic and you write a script, it's you.
Marc:I'm not a writer guy.
Marc:So when I put something together finally, and it has to be spaced by eight years when I pitch something because my life has had to have changed enough for me to be the center of this thing.
Marc:So when they say no, it's like, oh, I guess I've got to wait eight years.
Marc:I'll play an old guy.
Guest:Your life.
Guest:No to your life.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I don't know if it's a great way to live in show business, but it is what it is.
Guest:It isn't a great way to live.
Guest:It's not.
Guest:But I mean, I feel like that's the experience of show.
Guest:I feel like that any script that doesn't, I mean, literally, I'm dealing with that in a movie right now.
Guest:I'm trying to get made.
Guest:It's just like, I take it very personally.
Guest:I get upset with these people.
Guest:I go through the whole thing.
Guest:I was talking to my wife about it last night.
Guest:Like, you know, I get upset with these executives who are making these decisions.
Guest:And I take, you know, what does that mean?
Guest:Because it's really hard these days to get anything made.
Guest:that isn't Iron Man 3.
Guest:I mean, it really is hard.
Guest:Or people see you in a very specific way in terms of what is bankable or not and all that stuff.
Guest:And when you put yourself out there and you write something or you develop something, it's hard not to take it personally.
Guest:If you get too hard into that, I don't think you're... How do you react when you take it personally?
Marc:I mean, do you get angry?
Marc:I get sad.
Guest:It's better than angry.
Guest:I get sad and angry.
Guest:I'm used to the feelings now because it happens.
Guest:I just know I'm going to have that feeling if something's not coming together the way I want it to.
Guest:And I've dealt with that on certain projects where...
Guest:I've had a movie called Civil Warland and Bad Decline, which is based on a story by George Saunders, who's a really great writer.
Guest:Great writer, yeah.
Guest:And literally, it's been almost 14 years we've been trying to get that movie made.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And I got great actors attached to it.
Guest:And it hasn't been able to get... It's literally one of those... At night, I'll just like...
Guest:I'll just think about it, and I go, what is it?
Guest:Is it the script bad?
Guest:No, I don't think the script is bad.
Guest:Is it me?
Guest:They don't want to work with me as a director?
Guest:And there's no answer to it.
Guest:It's just the reality of show business.
Guest:You have to let it go.
Guest:You have to be able to feel it and acknowledge the feelings.
Guest:It's like anything.
Guest:It's like any rejection in life.
Guest:It goes back to the green breathing.
Guest:You can stew on it and then suppress it.
Guest:Forever.
Guest:Yeah, and it can eat you up.
Guest:And you have to figure out ways to move on.
Marc:Now, talking about your parents, I can't help but when I see your dad working, I see your mom in movies, and I see you working, it makes me proud.
Marc:Like, it's touching to me because your dad is such a character and your mom is so unique and you've got your thing going and you're unique.
Marc:And I just how I mean, because they seem much like volatile people to me.
Marc:But I mean, what what is their experience with you and in your your extraordinary success?
Marc:I mean,
Marc:Being that they've been in the business for, what, 50 years?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We have a really good relationship now.
Guest:I think our relationship has developed.
Guest:I feel like as parents, they've always been supportive.
Guest:They've always been understanding of show business, obviously, because that's what they do.
Guest:And they had to deal with parents who didn't get it.
Guest:My dad's parents didn't understand it all.
Guest:My dad grew up very poor on the Lower East Side during the Depression.
Guest:His dad was a bus driver.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And his mom... You want to do what?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, literally that.
Guest:And he really wanted to be a comedian, and he really worked hard.
Guest:My mom grew up in Long Island.
Guest:Her dad was a lawyer, sort of middle class, and her mom died at a young age, and she sort of was on her own.
Guest:But very serious actress from a young age.
Guest:She really wanted to be a serious actress.
Guest:And then she met my dad, and they both were starving and not making ends meet and decided to start a comedy team.
Guest:So they worked really hard, and I think they understood what it was to be not understood by your parents.
Guest:So I think they, for my sister and I, they really were supportive, seeing that we wanted to do it.
Guest:But that being said, I think any relationship with your parents is always going to be complicated.
Guest:And it was complicated growing up because they did work a lot and they went away a lot and they had the stress of having to...
Guest:to go on the Ed Sullivan Show 30 times.
Guest:Just imagine what that is, to have to go on that show in front of 40 million people.
Marc:And there's two of them.
Marc:So it's not just like you with your wife spinning your problems in your head about the business.
Marc:It's them going like, we got to do this, and you're not
Guest:carrying your weight yeah that kind of shit there were a lot of that and and i think my they both very different people and my mother took it much more in stride and my dad was much more of like preparing and rehearsing and my mother wanted to kind of sort of just go with it and was naturally i think my mother was it was easier for my mother to go out there and just kind of wing it because she just had a natural facility where my dad was like i want to run it run and run it
Guest:And they had to write it together and they both were, I mean, they're so interconnected.
Guest:Yeah, but when they got out there together, they had just had a very special thing together.
Guest:And even to this day, when I see them, when they get up in front of anybody and do something, it's this amazing sort of, you know, symbiotic thing that is just, it's, you know, it's hilarious and it's so well honed over the years.
Guest:But yeah, but growing up with that is a little bit crazy.
Guest:But what I like about our relationship now is that it's evolved and parents have both changed as people over the years, which I feel like that's what you got to just, you know, hopefully that's what any relationship is.
Guest:It's like you're trying to grow and somehow evolve and not be stuck in what, you know, getting caught up in where you were.
Guest:And so I've really seen them grow over the years.
Guest:And we talk about it.
Guest:We talk about how hard it was for them to be parents back then and, you know,
Guest:Um, my mother will talk about all the time her, you know, um, she's, uh, you know, about just about how, how demanding it was for her and how she feels like she wasn't a great mother a lot of the time.
Guest:But you know, the fact that we can talk about it like that and she actually even, you know, wants to engage about it to me is amazing.
Guest:And she's 80.
Guest:My mom's 80.
Guest:My dad's almost 83.
Guest:And they're both they're both very vibrant.
Guest:And, you know, they both my mom reads voraciously and is very connected with what's going on, but doesn't have sort of any need to have to be out there doing it.
Guest:My dad really needs to keep on working to just to I think just keep going.
Guest:Yeah, my dad's the same way.
Marc:It's interesting that you bring that up because there's a point, like even on that bulletin board right there, you see that piece of paper up there that says Barry curse?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That's my dad.
Marc:Now, at some point, I wrote that.
Marc:At some point, I needed to make a list of his shortcomings or the liabilities of being wired by that guy and then also counter it with the good things and eventually realize at some point you got to say, you know, they did what they did.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And I love them.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Very, very important to have acceptance, I think, because... Because then you'd be Greenberg.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:You know, you can hang on to that.
Guest:But that's what I realized, because my mom has really changed a lot, I mean, over the years.
Guest:And I think I probably had a lot of upset about kind of like feeling like, well, where were they when we were younger?
Guest:And they'd go out and...
Guest:But they were working.
Guest:They were like, you know, when you look back, they were doing the best they could.
Guest:And they were great.
Guest:They were great parents.
Guest:It's just like they had to work and they had to go out and play nightclubs for drunken crowds.
Guest:And they had to go and go to L.A.
Guest:But they never wanted to move to L.A.
Guest:They were New Yorkers.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so they traveled more and they were away more than if we had moved out to California.
Guest:But that was something that was a choice that they made that I really appreciate.
Guest:That New York's a better place to grow up.
Guest:That I got to grow up in New York.
Guest:And then, of course, the ultimate sort of realization when you have kids, when you think, okay, now I'm going to have my kids and I'm going to right all the wrongs.
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:With spite.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Some spite.
Guest:And, you know, then you just realize how hard it is to be a parent.
Guest:I mean, and I've made so many mistakes.
Guest:Different mistakes than my parents have made.
Guest:Some the same, too.
Guest:But, like, trying not to.
Guest:You just realize it's a really, really challenging thing to be a parent.
Guest:Because I work.
Guest:And I know it's important, you know, obviously, you know, to create...
Guest:you know, a living and all that and also for creativity.
Guest:But there's no way you can do that and not explain to your kids, justify to young kids.
Guest:They don't understand why you're going away.
Guest:No.
Guest:So I have much more empathy for my parents, you know, being a parent.
Guest:And I just give them a lot of credit for continuing to just sort of look at themselves.
Guest:And so now our relationship is as good as it's ever been.
Marc:And they get to pick up a little slack because when the grandkids come, it gives them a second chance in a way.
Guest:Yes, for sure.
Guest:Yes, for sure.
Guest:But what I like is that our relationship now is a real relationship, and we're not talking about the past a lot.
Guest:Oh, that's great.
Marc:And do they express pride?
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah.
Guest:My dad, yes, my dad is, you know, they both do.
Guest:You know, my mom is a tougher audience.
Guest:She's just always naturally been, had a pretty sort of high bar in terms of comedy and writing and all those things.
Guest:So, like, if I do something that she seems to like, you know, I feel like that's sort of, you know, something I can appreciate.
Marc:Oh, it means more when you kind of break her and she's like, that was good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:She goes, I like that, you know.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's sweet.
Marc:So I guess in closing here, I mean, you know, you do a lot of stuff.
Marc:You do it very well.
Marc:And like you do, you know, big family movies.
Marc:You do small independent movies.
Marc:You know, you seem to have a lot of freedom and you're a hard worker.
Marc:And things seem to be, you know, you're at the top of your game right now.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know, I hope I'm doing okay.
Guest:I'm not good at sussing out where I'm at in my game, other than I just know that I'm trying to be as connected as possible to what I want to be doing and really looking at that.
Marc:And what are your big fears?
Marc:I mean, in terms of outside of the work drying up, because that's not going to happen in the next couple years.
Marc:You're probably pretty backed up with work, right?
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, it's, you know, things are going okay.
Guest:It's just, it's, you know, it's what we're talking about.
Guest:You know, the movies that are really interesting to me now, trying to go in different directions, you know, movies like Greenberg or something like that, those are the harder ones to get made, no matter what.
Marc:So do you find, are you concerned about, and for yourself, do you approach a movie like the Fockers movies or the Night at the Museum movies as, in a different way?
Marc:Do you look at yourself like, is that easier?
Marc:Is it harder?
Marc:Is it like, you know, you get to be broader or you know that you're going to make more money possibly?
Marc:I mean, how do you approach them differently?
Guest:Well, it's just a different context.
Guest:I mean, I don't approach them differently in terms of how hard I work on them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's just a different context for, you know, what you're doing, you know, in terms of who the audience is, what the expectation is.
Guest:You know, success in those kinds of movies is you have to be aware of what a studio needs to happen in a movie like that.
Guest:Now, you don't have to engage in it, and you can say, well, I don't care, but you have to be aware of it.
Guest:And for me...
Guest:I'm trying to work as hard as I can on a movie like that to make it as good as I possibly feel it can be for that audience.
Guest:The smaller movies?
Guest:The smaller movies, I don't give a shit about.
LAUGHTER
Guest:No one's going to see him.
Guest:It doesn't matter.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Honestly, it's like on a case-by-case basis, you just approach everything you're doing with you try to be as engaged as possible and try to make the best decisions.
Guest:Continually, I find myself making mistakes every time.
Guest:Every time I go out, I go, okay, I'm going to try not to make the same mistake.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:People you work with and go, okay, how can I figure out how to not...
Guest:put myself in a position where I feel like that was a frustrating experience.
Guest:And then, honestly, it comes back to me a lot of the time.
Guest:I realized over the years that my point of view, sometimes this quote-unquote perfectionism thing, which I don't mean that by thinking I can get it perfect, but just focusing on something.
Guest:When you realize that if you don't focus on trying to make something the way you think it should be as much...
Guest:it's going to be what it is anyway, and trying to allow that to happen.
Guest:A little breathing room for yourself.
Guest:Yeah, in other words, realizing that my attitude towards people is probably as much of an issue as anything else.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That kind of stuff, I think, is just sort of like where you're at in your life.
Guest:So every time I go out, I try to be more aware of that.
Guest:Because then it's going to be more enjoyable for me, too.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I mean, you might as well give yourself a little space.
Marc:It's almost like saying, I know what I'm doing.
Marc:Why can't I enjoy it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, also, the other thing that over the last few years I've been much more aware of is that the experience is all you have.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:I mean, it really is.
Guest:These movies exist, whatever.
Guest:You get in the editing room and you work on whatever.
Guest:But at the end of the day, you're there for three or four months working with these people.
Guest:And if you're not there, present, enjoying it, then there's no reason to do it because that's what most of your time is taken up doing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you worry about what people think about you in a broad sense?
Marc:I mean, do you get a feeling like if I don't balance out these larger family-type movies with movies that I find emotionally and creatively challenging, that I'm going to be judged a certain way?
Guest:Well, I'm aware of that.
Guest:But also, at the end of the day, it's much stronger motivation is my own feeling about it.
Guest:It's much more important to me because I cannot control what other people think about me.
Guest:And nowadays, I mean, there's always been a lot of opinions whenever you put something out there.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:everybody out there judging stuff and writing stuff is way too much to engage in.
Guest:And I think that the challenge is to not block yourself off where you're living in a bubble.
Guest:Of fear.
Guest:Of fear and I don't want to know anything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:All of a sudden you're not in touch with anything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But then to really just be doing what's going to make you happy.
Guest:Because honestly, I'm much more concerned about what's – that I'm feeling creatively fulfilled doing something because I know that's the only way that it's going to be any –
Guest:good to anyone is if I'm actually engaged in it to yourself the rest of it I of course I'm aware of that stuff but I can't unfortunately no matter how much I try I cannot control it I can't do it I cannot make the people who aren't into it be into it you know and I remember I remember realizing that very early on I did this play House of Blue Leaves it was one of the first jobs I had and I got slammed in a review it was the first professional job I had like me and Chris Walken Chris Walken was in the play who was like you know Chris Walken this amazing actor
Guest:And Chris Walken and I got slammed in the same sentence by John Simon, the reviewer for New York.
Guest:It's like he's a famous reviewer who just relishes ways he can slam actors.
Guest:And I realized, oh, wow.
Guest:So right off the bat, I was like, wow, I'm getting slammed with Chris Walken.
Guest:That's...
Guest:that's good that's good that's good yeah okay he's in it with me yeah yeah i'm somehow now i'm like i'm with him somehow yeah yeah i'm up here yeah but then you know you just realize right off that you know that's just the way it's gonna be and it doesn't make i'm saying it makes it easier necessarily to deal with but it is just a fact that you just have to accept and then you go is that gonna affect me is am i am i gonna quit acting tomorrow
Guest:Because am I really going to engage in that and stop doing what I'm doing?
Guest:And I know.
Guest:So I might as well just keep on going and doing my thing and trying to feel good about what I'm doing.
Marc:That's awesome.
Marc:Another difference between you and the Greenberg character.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But that's the constant struggle for sure.
Marc:Well, I really appreciate you coming and doing the show.
Marc:And I wish you nothing but continued success.
Marc:Thanks, Mark.
Marc:It's great to talk to you.
Marc:Thanks, Ben.
Marc:Well, Ben just left, and I've got to be honest with you.
Marc:As nervous as I was, I had a great time.
Marc:He's a very sweet guy, and he took some WTF coffee, and I hope you enjoyed that.
Marc:Anyways, go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs, and we are listener-supported, so if you find it in your heart to get on board for a $10 a month rolling subscription donation, I'd love it, or anything you want to give.
Marc:There's also merchandise available, and PunchlineMagazine.com for all your...
Marc:your comedy news needs.
Marc:And I guess I just got to come down from this because that was a nice conversation and I hope you enjoyed it again.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Bye.
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