Episode 778 - Martha Kelly / Bruce Talk with Dan Pashman
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:All right, let's do this.
Guest:How are you?
Guest:What the fuckers?
Guest:What the fuck buddies?
Guest:What the fucking ears?
Guest:What the fuck nicks?
Guest:What's happening?
Marc:Before I get too caught up, my guest today is Martha Kelly, comedian and also a regular on the show Baskets with Galifian Nicotopolis, Zach Galifianakis.
Marc:Zach Galifianakis.
Marc:Yes, Martha Kelly will be here today.
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast, WTF.
Marc:We've been going strong for how long now?
Marc:A lot of episodes.
Marc:When did we start this?
Marc:How far back was it?
Marc:Was it 2009?
Marc:Wow.
Marc:That's a long time, man.
Marc:It's been going.
Marc:I got to be honest with you.
Marc:Everything changes tomorrow for everybody in this country in a significant way.
Marc:And I will say this, that my life changed dramatically and for the better during the Obama administration.
Marc:It wasn't...
Marc:because of obama but i feel like we both had uh an incredible arc during those years i was privileged enough to speak to the president here in the garage that was a definite high point but uh tomorrow
Marc:The tone of culture officially changes.
Marc:A few of you may be thrilled and excited.
Marc:I imagine just as many are terrified and feeling hopeless.
Marc:And then I imagine there's a few people that are, all right.
Marc:I did what I thought I had to do.
Marc:I hope this works out.
Marc:But the one thing I knew about Obama was not a lot, but, you know, that he was just there doing his job.
Marc:He didn't have to bother me every day.
Marc:I didn't have to hear from him every day.
Marc:He didn't have to, you know...
Marc:with the world in a way that would make everybody wonder if everything's okay today.
Marc:So that's going to be a little taxing.
Marc:Personally, my brain over the last...
Marc:several years has gotten a little spoiled in that, you know, things were OK.
Marc:I thought that the country was being managed OK and I was feeling OK.
Marc:But what I'm learning now is I have a natural disposition towards, you know, somehow I could keep my own personal anxiety and panic at bay because all evidence was indicating that things were OK.
Marc:But boy, my brain just is like, you know, when there is something that I see is terrifying or hopeless or unresolvable or depressing and it's real and it's big and it's right in front of me, my brain is just sort of like, ah, well, that looks like home.
Marc:Now, finally, a reason to be miserable and anxious and hopeless.
Marc:But this is a here's an upbeat thing quickly.
Marc:For those of you who have been following last week's show, when I told you about that letter I got from that kid I knew, Ted, and I told you about how he punched me in the stomach after I sang a song for his girlfriend as a kid, and he wrote back a subject line, sorry I punched you.
Marc:Hey, Mark.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Listen to yesterday's podcast.
Marc:The song.
Marc:Seriously blocked memory.
Marc:What can I say?
Marc:I would like to make it up to you if possible.
Marc:Let's talk sometime.
Marc:Come visit New Mexico early to mid-April before your Boulder show.
Marc:If you can, I'll buy you dinner and we can catch up on life.
Marc:I know the power of the grudge.
Marc:Best.
Marc:Ted.
Ted.
Marc:Yeah, the power of the grudge.
Marc:Yeah, that might be a theme next few years.
Marc:So...
Marc:Go to WTF pod dot com slash tour for all my upcoming tour dates.
Marc:I will be in Tallahassee on Tuesday night.
Marc:I will be doing some sort of I think it's part of a festival there.
Marc:I've never been there.
Marc:I'm excited.
Marc:I think we've sold about 700 some odd tickets.
Marc:But come.
Marc:I think there's more seats for you.
Marc:I believe it might be even a 1,200 seat situation.
Marc:700 is fine with me.
Marc:That's January 24th.
Marc:That is Tuesday next week.
Marc:Tallahassee at the Ruby Diamond Concert Hall.
Marc:Got a surprise for you today.
Marc:Dan Pashman.
Marc:I've had him on the show a few times.
Marc:He has a podcast called The Sporkful.
Marc:He was with me back in the day when I started broadcasting on radio.
Marc:We go back.
Marc:We have a nice al dente dynamic, but not really.
Marc:He's a softy and a bright guy, and I've always enjoyed his laugh.
Marc:but I also like busting his balls.
Marc:But to tell you why he's here, really, he was in town doing some other stuff, but he's the biggest Springsteen fan I know, all right?
Marc:Like he's Jersey, full-on, all-in Springsteen guy.
Marc:And I could have...
Marc:asked for counsel before i talked to the boss but i did not i could have i could have reached out to dan but i didn't want to get into the mire of the springsteen fan head but i did want to do some uh talk about it after so i had dan over when he was in town for a bit and we talked about that among other stuff so this is me and pashman uh breaking down my springsteen experience from his point of view me and pashman here we go
Marc:I watched that four-hour-long Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers doc.
Guest:Great.
Guest:That sounds... Great.
Guest:Two and a half hours too long.
Marc:No, it's great.
Marc:I was crying at parts.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah, just listening to the songs.
Marc:Like, he's my Springsteen.
Guest:Really?
Marc:No, a little bit.
Guest:I guess because he's like California guy.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I mean, I love Bruce.
Marc:But like in terms of listening to music, I think that their place in American culture on some level is a little similar.
Marc:I don't think Tom Petty's really dark, you know, or that exploratory.
Marc:But I think that as American songwriters and bands, the Heartbreakers and the Eastry Band are, you know, they had common trajectories.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:But I think what you said is right.
Guest:I just felt like there's not a whole lot of emotional depth to his music.
Guest:It sort of feels like he decided 40 years ago that he was going to play rock and roll.
Guest:And I get that there's some nobility to just being like, I'm going to get really good at doing this one thing.
Guest:I'm going to do it forever.
Guest:And that's cool.
Marc:He's made some great songs.
Marc:There's a slight condescension.
Marc:There's a couple of things you said quickly with a sort of chipper confidence that they didn't fall into the right slots in my brain.
Marc:If I'm not wrong, you're basically implying that Tom Petty's been doing the same thing for 40 years and he's just got this thing he does and it doesn't change much and I'm glad that he found his thing.
Guest:Do you disagree with that?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:He does work within popular music.
Marc:He likes to write pop songs, and he likes to write well-constructed songs, but his band, the Heartbreakers, is one of the best bands that's ever played rock and roll, really.
Marc:I was just watching the new version, the new Blu-ray of The Last Waltz last night with the band.
Marc:How do you feel about the band?
Guest:I like the band.
Guest:But I also think that if the band had been around for 40 years, I think that they would have run out of creative steam.
Guest:I think part of the reason why the band holds up for so long is because they stopped.
Marc:But also because of the space they were able to create between the instruments and the sort of time they gave the music and also whatever their muses were sourcing in terms of American music and folk tradition, they were just a great band.
Marc:And they weren't overworking it.
Marc:There was an ease to it all.
Marc:But when I view Petty through that, I think a lot of his songs are about yearning.
Marc:I think there is darkness in his songs.
Marc:I think that a lot of them are about love.
Marc:And a lot of them are about not really knowing.
Marc:I understand that there was a few albums there you might not have liked.
Marc:But very comforting and provocative music to me, Mr. Petty.
Marc:And I'm always happy that he's around.
Marc:That's that.
Guest:What, are you trying to get him on the show now?
Marc:No, I'm not, this is, I'm not using you.
Marc:Why would I, you think like, great dance here, finally I can do a subtle plea to get Tom Petty on.
Marc:But, you know, I almost called you as I was heading to New Jersey because
Marc:Look, do not misunderstand me.
Marc:I love Bruce Springsteen.
Marc:I listen to his records over and over, but I'm not a fanatic Bruce Springsteen guy.
Marc:And I had to go through a sort of complete reevaluation of his stuff and re-listen to a lot of it before I talked to him.
Marc:It's really better that I wasn't like you.
Marc:And I didn't say that with any stink to it.
Marc:going into the interview.
Guest:Well, I feel the same way in the other direction, Mark.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, but I mean, could you imagine yourself with, you know, what if Bruce came on the Sporkful?
Marc:I mean, you wouldn't be able to talk.
Guest:Yeah, I would need a few minutes to collect myself.
Marc:But my point being, and I'm not insecure about it, but I was going to call you, and then I realized, like, why am I going to call Bruce Springsteen Fanatic before I go talk to him?
Marc:I know how I want to talk to him.
Marc:I had an hour.
Marc:You listened to it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And?
Guest:I thought you did a great job.
Guest:Good.
Guest:I thought your interview was excellent.
Guest:I thought you guys really connected.
Guest:That's important.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Well, that's a huge part of what your show's about, and...
Guest:um i thought it felt like even though some of the topics that you talked about he's talked about in other interviews there was a different tone to it because of the style of interview that you do that right more like a conversation right less like a one a one-way street of i ask a question and then you provide an answer yeah so that gave it sort of a different air to it right there was a there was about 25 minutes in where it just clicked into something else yeah it became a personal thing like i could feel it
Guest:What I liked most about it... I mean, I felt... Look, I'm sure that you have... When the story of WTF is written, you'll have other shows, the Obama show or whatever, that will have gotten more listens.
Guest:And people... I'm sure people have many different opinions about their personal favorite WTF guest ever, who that is.
Guest:But I think that this was the quintessential WTF episode.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yes, because at its core, as I hear, what this show is about is...
Guest:exploring a person's background and journey, and then connecting that to their art.
Guest:The central question of this show is like, what happened to you?
Guest:What did you experience in your life, personally and professionally, that led you not only to be the person that you are, but to create the art that you create?
Guest:And to draw connections between personal experience and artistic expression.
Marc:And my experience.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Please see me while I talk to you.
Guest:But I mean, because you, you're like, part of what brings that out is your connection with your guests.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're often, you are often talking, especially in your opening monologues, about your own issues and making that same connection.
Marc:But it was funny with Bruce, because I was like, you know, I gotta, I gotta, like my, outside of listening to all the music, knowing that I wasn't really going to talk about it.
Marc:And thank God I read enough of the book to sort of get a sense of him personally, because I don't always realize going into these things that, you know, how much he's talked publicly or how much his fans know.
Marc:But there is a definite sort of group of Springsteen fans that are like, I've listened to everything.
Marc:I've seen everything.
Marc:I've read everything like he's got those people.
Marc:And I knew that.
Marc:And I always know that going into a big artist.
Marc:But like, I really needed to see if I could, you know, talk to him as a person.
Marc:And it took a little while.
Marc:It took like 20 minutes for me.
Marc:Like, I knew when I started talking to him, I didn't waste any time, you know, getting into the meat of things.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I don't know that he was expecting it.
Marc:But I felt right away, because I am genetically New Jersey, and I brought that up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But just right away, for some reason, when I said there's a lot going on in the house because of Christmas, he goes, correct.
Marc:I was like, I'm in, in a way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, that's not like, that correct was hilarious to me.
Guest:What was it about his demeanor that switched at a certain point that, that sent you the signal?
Guest:Like we've, we've crossed over from like, well, there was a couple of moments when, when I related to him as a performer, that was one thing.
Marc:And then that moment where I'm like, I basically say like, yeah, I, I, you know, it's like, you know, offstage in my emotional life, you know, I, I, I have a hard time trusting anyone.
Marc:He goes, of course you do.
Guest:Right.
Marc:That moment I was like, okay.
Yeah.
Marc:We're talking like a couple of guys now.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, he was just so damn eloquent.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And thoughtful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the reason why he's the quintessential WTF guest in my mind is that he...
Guest:drew connections between personal struggle and artistic expression more explicitly than any other guest.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I thought when he talked about, you know, these things happen to you growing up and it burns and burns, but if you can take that fire and point it in the right direction, it becomes a powerful weapon.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He said that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's pretty good.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I gotta listen to this thing.
Yeah.
Guest:And the other part that he said was, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but something to the effect of you don't become a rock and roll star if you had a nice placid upbringing.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know, you need chaos and tumult.
Guest:That single sentiment is the underlying assumption of this entire show and of your whole approach to your own creative evolution.
Marc:yeah and in art in general i mean i i don't want to say that's always the case because you know people get upset you know like i feel okay and i'm trying to draw you know i don't but you know i don't want to alienate those people but i yeah i'm sure that didn't come across as condescending to them at all go on
Marc:No, but I mean, like, I think that's true.
Marc:I think there's something about, you know, the the kind of like lifelong broken heart or the you know, the the sort of fragmentation of your emotional being from an age before, you know, you had any control over that.
Marc:That does lead to finding relief and expression.
Marc:I mean, I don't know if I've ever thought about that way, and it's obviously more complicated, but I appreciate the the validation from a true Bruce Springsteen fan.
Guest:no you did a great job how many times have you seen him live uh i haven't i'm not the kind i'm not so hardcore that i have an exact count like 100 no no no i would say like 20 yeah 20 times first time ever was on the born in the usa tour in giant stadium in new jersey when i was eight years old no kidding um
Marc:Your dad took you?
Guest:My parents took me.
Guest:All four of us went.
Guest:My brother was five.
Guest:We didn't stay until the end, which I was very upset about.
Marc:You want to get past the traffic.
Marc:Let's go.
Marc:We can get out.
Guest:But the last time I was here with you, I was a little bit...
Guest:I guess a little down on Bruce because I had seen him and it wasn't a great concert experience.
Guest:And I sort of talked about how I felt like maybe he was creatively spinning his wheels and you defended him very well.
Guest:And then subsequent to that conversation we had, I saw him again in Brooklyn and it was a fantastic show.
Guest:And I was like riding the high of that show for days.
Marc:You know, a job is a job sometimes.
Guest:well i don't even know to what degree it was his fault that the first earlier show wasn't as good it was shorter and the set list just didn't happen to connect with me quite as well but it was also partly like i didn't have great seats the people around me weren't that into it and it happened to be a night that like i was uh very distracted with work the friend i was with had just had a death in her family and she wasn't exactly like ready to party and you're you're gonna lay that on bruce yeah you you walk out of that situation yeah and without doing the math and working the angles like
Marc:Wow, Bruce didn't pull me out of this shit situation I'm in.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It must be his fault.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He must have lost a step.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:We expect a lot out of these people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But there's one thing that you said in the setup to your interview with Bruce that I want to double back on.
Guest:Because you said something when you were describing kind of coming into the studio before Bruce came.
Guest:And then you glossed right over it.
Guest:And this, to me, this was like a record scratch moment for me.
Marc:You need some gaps filled in?
Guest:Did you say that Bruce had cronuts?
Marc:Yeah, there were some cronuts.
Marc:But they were... Wait, go back.
Marc:Let me, I'll give you.
Marc:Well, here was the situation.
Marc:So we get there and there's, you know, the guy who let us in, the publicist was there waiting and she was nice.
Marc:And, you know, it's on his property.
Marc:And a carpenter let us in and helped us plug in and set up.
Marc:And we were just there in the studio for a while.
Marc:And she said, well, you know, you're free to make a coffee.
Marc:There was a kitchen in the studio building.
Marc:you know, with a coffee maker.
Marc:And there were cronuts there.
Marc:And when she brought up the cronuts, I was like, I never had one.
Marc:But to be honest with you, they were in a box.
Marc:They were individually wrapped.
Marc:So it looked like the kind of thing you get as a gift.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Like in plastic bags, like mass produced.
Marc:Perhaps.
Marc:They may be from a valid cronut maker, but it was definitely a gift box type of thing.
Guest:Was there like a brand name or a bakery or anything written on the box?
Marc:Probably.
Marc:What do you want from me?
Marc:I had other things on my mind.
Marc:I had to interview Bruce Springsteen in 10 minutes.
Marc:I wasn't going to be like, I'm going to make note that I didn't love this cronut.
Marc:And if this is the best they can be, I'm not on board.
Guest:I'm just very curious to know what kind of cronuts Bruce has in his studio.
Marc:I don't think that Bruce put them there personally.
Marc:And my belief is that they got them up at the house as a gift, a Christmas gift box.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:And he said, get these out of here.
Guest:They're going to make me fat.
Marc:Probably.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Like he seems to be a little weight conscious.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They were like, what should I do with them?
Marc:It's like, well, we've got people coming.
Marc:There's a guy.
Marc:Let's just put them down there.
Marc:Maybe they'll eat them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:There's a place here.
Marc:that can't keep the cronuts in stock like there's a new bakery open down the street very expensive and they're known for the cronuts i believe but uh i've never had one because they're never there right now i imagine you've probably done one or two shows on the cronut i did interview it was a month-long series uh on the sporkful folks yeah look up cronut one two and three yeah
Marc:What?
Marc:What did you do?
Marc:We're going to submit it for a Peabody.
Marc:Good.
Marc:You'll probably get it.
Marc:I can't get one.
Marc:I talk to the fucking president.
Marc:But your cronut one will probably burst through.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:I did interview Dominique Ansell, who's the sort of famous fancy baker who invented the cronut.
Guest:So technically speaking, like he is like the only quote unquote real cronut is at his bakery.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where's that?
Guest:In Manhattan.
Guest:He's very precious about it.
Guest:I had an interview scheduled with him and he still wouldn't let me have a cronut.
Guest:Like the bakery could just put one aside for me in the morning and I could pick it up.
Marc:You went to the bakery to interview him?
Marc:It was a location interview?
Guest:I interviewed him at a live show, but I said before I interview him, I'd like to eat a cronut so I can talk about the experience.
Guest:You do live shows in front of people?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How do they go?
Guest:They go really well.
Marc:Where do you do them?
Guest:Some at the WNYC performance space called the Green Space.
Guest:I did one at the Bell House in Brooklyn.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Going to do some new ones.
Marc:Sell that out?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Good for you.
Guest:Yeah, the Bell House.
Guest:We had John Hodgman came to the Bell House, so that helped, because I'm sure more people were coming to see him than me.
Guest:But yeah, I mean, I would love to do more live shows.
Guest:It gives me the tiniest taste.
Guest:I mean, I can't even imagine what it must be like for you to...
Guest:Because I'm sure you're so much better at it.
Guest:And I know that you are.
Guest:And going on the road.
Marc:I'm glad you added that.
Marc:Dedicating half my life to doing live performance.
Marc:I'm glad you conceded that.
Marc:That maybe I might be a little more adept at it than you.
Guest:You are.
Guest:But it has given me a tiny insight into or like a different appreciation for what you do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Uh, because I do find that I'm, I, when I'm up on stage, I'm interviewing someone.
Guest:I'm so highly attuned to the vibe I'm getting from the crowd.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, um, which I think is mostly probably a strength because I, but do you feel like you want to get laughs or you just feel the crowd?
Guest:I do feel I do always perceive that the audience is getting impatient.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Often before they really are.
Guest:But I guess.
Guest:How do you know it all?
Guest:Maybe I don't.
Guest:Maybe I'm wrong half the time.
Marc:I mean, they're there to see a guy talk about food with people.
Marc:I mean, what do you think?
Marc:Like, God, get to the payoff.
Guest:Just like if we end up on a certain topic for too long or an answer goes on for too long.
Guest:So you're actually getting like, I'm actually getting tired of this.
Guest:They must be.
Guest:And sometimes after the fact, I'll talk to people and they'll be like, oh, that part was so interesting.
Guest:And I'm like, my first question for people when I finish is like, did that go on too long?
Guest:But I think it probably makes for better live shows because, you know, always leave wanting more.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:No, no, I think that's true.
Marc:But, you know, and we don't know what people are thinking.
Marc:A lot of times they're just listening and they're having experience and you're not expected to be doing a rock show or a comedy show.
Marc:And they know that the fans of the Sporkful are there because they know the show and they, you know, they're there to listen.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Anyway, on stage, I interviewed the creator of the cronut, and he would not give me a cronut ahead of time to eat to prepare for the interview.
Guest:He told me I had to go wait in line with all the tourists at 6 o'clock in the morning.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Now, see that?
Marc:And he told you that in front of people?
Yes.
Guest:No, his people told me that ahead of time.
Marc:Really?
Marc:And you didn't bring that up?
Guest:I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't do it in an especially aggressive or accusatory way, but what I did is I had a friend of mine who's a pastry chef take the modified cronut recipe in his cookbook and make them, and then I presented those to him on stage.
Guest:Ooh, good.
Guest:You like that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And was like, okay, I can't get a cronut from you.
Guest:I guess this is what I'm going to experience as my cronut experience.
Marc:Yeah, and what do you say?
Guest:He ate it and he said, it's a little doughy, but it's pretty good.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Fuck that guy.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:It's like, I'm not going to give that guy a cronut.
Marc:I'm going to do his radio show and talk about my cronuts.
Marc:But basically he was saying like, I don't need him.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So what?
Guest:He was very nice to me personally.
Marc:Give me the lowdown on the cronut.
Marc:Cause I, I, I find that I barely give a shit.
Guest:Um, yeah, I honestly, like it's a block from my office.
Marc:If I cared that much, I could go to, it's what it's a croissant pressed into a donut.
Guest:It's a hybrid croissant donut.
Guest:You take croissant dough, which is lighter and flakier.
Marc:Oh, so it's all flaky and buttery.
Guest:Right, but it's layered.
Guest:It's rolled very thin and folded many times.
Guest:You get many, many very thin, delicate layers.
Guest:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:And they add a cream filling inside.
Marc:But to me, oh, there's a cream filling involved?
Guest:And a frosting on top.
Marc:Yeah, maybe that's why I didn't like the ones I had over there.
Marc:Because for me, a lot of times, the really thin, flaky business...
Marc:You know, that texture to me, it just means like, well, there's a lot of air here where shit could have been.
Marc:There's a lot of space that could have been filled with some doughy good stuff.
Guest:Well, you know what you can do in that case, just take your hand and flatten it.
Marc:Yeah, that might be better.
Marc:But I sort of like, I have that like with phyllo dough stuff.
Marc:I'm like, yeah, it's an interesting texture, but it could be a little more, you know, it's not as satisfying as I might want it to be.
Guest:Have you considered putting another cronut inside the holes of this cronut?
Marc:Yeah, there you go.
Marc:It would be a croducken.
Marc:You and your fucking ideas of cramming other shit into other shit.
Marc:But I'm just saying a lot of times simple food is the best.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like Tom Petty.
Guest:Nice and simple.
Marc:wow you brought it all around are you closing this are you wrapping is that a wrap yeah it's nice to see you it was fun are you gonna go eat uh yeah i think i am gonna go eat really i was thinking of getting some sushi maybe oh really yeah all right well we'll talk about it yeah see you later later buddy
Marc:Always nice to see Mr. Pashman.
Marc:We go back at this point.
Marc:It's funny, as like, you know, I have a couple go-backs.
Marc:Like, you know, back in the day with Dan, and then there's another.
Marc:There's back, back in the day.
Marc:I've got like three back in the days now.
Marc:There's back in the day, back, back in the day, back, back, back in the day.
Marc:Got to start making sure I make that clear.
Marc:You know, look, if politics has you down, folks, you can listen to Dan's latest episode of The Sporkful, which is about an election.
Marc:But it's a workplace election to pick a new office coffee.
Marc:I guarantee it will make you a lot less angry than the last election.
Marc:So that's Dan.
Marc:Go check out the Sporkful.
Marc:Um, before I talk to Martha Kelly, I would like to, uh, to say that I met Martha a while back.
Marc:Martha is, um, on baskets with Zach Gallifan noodles, uh, which is coming back tonight.
Marc:But, uh, but, uh, it was, uh, you know, it's, it's,
Marc:There are so many people on this show that I really didn't know at all, and I have assumptions about her.
Marc:I think I know things I don't.
Marc:Martha was one of those, and it was lovely to talk to her.
Marc:As I said before, tonight you can see her on Basket.
Marc:She's a regular on that show with Zach Gallif and Nicolopoulos.
Marc:It's on FX tonight at 10 p.m., and it's new episodes every Thursday night.
Marc:This is me and Martha Kelly.
Marc:Your demeanor is partially unconscious.
Guest:Yeah, it's just my how I talk.
Marc:Yeah, but what's going on inside?
Marc:What's going on inside, Martha?
Marc:I mean, like, I know.
Guest:One thing is antidepressants are going on inside.
Marc:How long's that been going on for?
Guest:For a few years.
Guest:I mean, I took them a couple times for a short-term period in my early 20s.
Guest:And then I didn't wanna, and then I started drinking a lot.
Guest:Booze?
Guest:Yeah, and you're not supposed to drink on them, and I chose booze.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which I still think was the right choice at the time.
Marc:So you said this medicine that they're prescribing me that I can't feel tangibly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Not working.
Guest:Not worth giving up the love of my life beer at the time.
Marc:Beer.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you're beer drunk?
Guest:Yeah, just because I, because with beer, you can kind of gauge where you are drunk wise.
Guest:And I hated the spins and throwing up.
Guest:So I would, you know, for a good amount of time, I could, you know, stop before that happened.
Guest:Just get drunk enough to not.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And with beer, you can kind of make a day of it.
Guest:Yes, and you can make a meal of it because that's what I would do at the end is not eat dinner and just drink beer to save money and calories because it has a lot of calories.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sounds like you had a really good plan going.
Guest:I really, for a while, it seemed like a great plan.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but then when I quit drinking, it was a few years before I was willing to consider antidepressants again.
Guest:I just didn't wanna need something to make me feel normal, but after a few really severe periods of wanting to kill myself and feeling like I just barely hung on, it's like this isn't really living.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, it seems like we've now got a good outline for the conversation.
Guest:I'm sure, or a good indicator that people are going to turn off their computer.
Marc:No, that is not true.
Marc:But the funny thing is that I remember meeting you decades ago.
Marc:I can't even remember where we first met, but I mean, I feel like...
Marc:So you grew up in Torrance, which is outside of Los Angeles, correct?
Marc:Is that that one?
Guest:Yeah, it's about 22 miles south of LA.
Guest:I know that Marky Mark's character in Boogie Nights is from Torrance.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's not my favorite city, I'll put it that way.
Marc:Do you have brothers and sisters?
Guest:I have a twin sister and an older brother.
Marc:Twin sister?
Guest:Fraternal, not identical.
Marc:Oh, so you don't look exactly like each other, but you know each other pretty well.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, we shared a room until we were 20 when we both went off to different universities.
Marc:And what was your dad doing and your family doing in Torrance?
Guest:My dad was an elementary school principal and my mom was an elementary school teacher.
Marc:The same school?
Guest:No.
Marc:Oh, they don't let that happen, I guess.
Guest:Maybe they do.
Marc:So you grew up with elementary school educators as parents.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And a twin sister.
Marc:Now, because when did you start doing comedy?
Marc:How old were you?
Guest:I was right before my 30th birthday.
Guest:So you waited a while.
Guest:I tried an open mic at the Laugh Factory about once a year starting when I was 25 but the very first time I did it, it went well and I went back the next week thinking I have to do all new material and I did and it was terrible and then it took me a year to recover and I did that once a year bombing.
Marc:Once?
Marc:Bombing once or twice?
Guest:Yeah, and then it'd take a long time to go back.
Marc:All right, so between the ages, so you go to junior college, and what's the plan?
Marc:Were you feeling depression?
Marc:Were you getting shit-faced then?
Guest:I wasn't drinking a lot.
Guest:I was smoking pot whenever I could.
Guest:And I was an English major.
Guest:I still haven't graduated.
Guest:I need like eight units to get my bachelor's degree.
Marc:Is that something you're thinking about doing?
Guest:Yeah, just because I went in 2013.
Guest:I went back to my school for one quarter.
Guest:And that was when I wasn't on antidepressants.
Guest:And so it took a bad turn.
Guest:But before it took a bad turn, it was so fun to be back in school.
Guest:I loved it.
Marc:So this was three years ago.
Marc:After a, you know, what, 15, 20 year hiatus?
Guest:Yeah, it was over 20 years since I had left.
Guest:It's just more fun to go to school when you're... In your 40s?
Guest:When you're an old lady because you don't have any of the pressure to figure out what you're going to do with your life.
Guest:You already know that... Most of it's done already.
Guest:Yeah, your life is... A lot of it is behind you.
Guest:And you also know that there isn't one... I think I felt in my 20s, I think some people feel this way where like...
Guest:There's one right door for you to pick for your career and for what you do with your life, and you have to pick it soon.
Guest:And if you make the wrong choice, you'll ruin your whole life.
Guest:And that's not actually what happens.
Guest:It's not true, though, right?
Guest:No.
Marc:Not at all.
Marc:Not for me.
Marc:I didn't know there were...
Marc:All I saw was a lot of doors, a lot of hallways.
Marc:Like I couldn't get out of the hallway.
Guest:Right.
Marc:It was very exhausting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The door, the potential door possibilities.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So you were studying English in junior college.
Marc:Was that in Torrance?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, El Camino College.
Marc:Nice.
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:I hated high school, but I loved junior college because there was none of the social, the forced social.
Marc:Right, because it's a commuter campus, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's just people that want to learn whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And really good teachers.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because at the junior college level, they don't have to do research to keep their job.
Guest:So it's just people who love teaching and they're really good at it.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, it was really fun.
Marc:Did you ever think about teaching?
Guest:I'm too self-conscious and don't have enough alpha to lead a class of young people.
Guest:I taught defensive driving like three times when I lived in Austin and was really bad at it.
Guest:Defensive driving?
Marc:Yeah, they call it comedy- Oh, that's right, when you got a ticket.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The improv used to do that, right?
Guest:Yeah, and on paper, especially for an alcoholic comedian, it sounds like a good deal, because you think I'll just work a couple days a week, make enough money to just pay my rent and get by, and then do comedy the rest of the time, but I was so bad at it.
Guest:Were you hungover?
Marc:hungover late really shy and uncomfortable and people were just like get me fuck get me out of here really but i always wondered about that because i knew that comics did this but i for some reason i'm picturing you in the actual car doing it but that's not what it was you had like there was a a course layout yeah and the idea was like it's not gonna be it'll be a little more painless yeah with funny people teaching
Guest:Yeah, that's what they say.
Guest:And then you also get free pizza.
Guest:That was a big, for me in my 30s, free pizza was a huge selling point for anything.
Marc:So you get a little bit of money and free pizza.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:As a comic to teach defensive driving.
Marc:Was it for the improv?
Guest:No, it was for Cap City in Austin.
Marc:Yeah, I know that club.
Marc:Warehouse-sized club.
Marc:But before we get there, I want to know what happened.
Marc:What was the disaster in junior college?
Marc:How did you not finish?
Marc:Where'd you go?
Guest:Well, it wasn't that I didn't finish junior college.
Guest:I took two years and then transferred to a four-year school to UC Davis.
Marc:Oh, I've been there.
Marc:That's sort of in the middle of this.
Marc:It's up there.
Guest:Yeah, it's like half an hour outside of Sacramento.
Marc:But like the whole town is the college, right?
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And when I went, it was one of the easier UC schools to get into.
Guest:That's why I picked it.
Guest:Partly because it was far away from home and partly because it was way harder to get into like Berkeley or UCLA.
Guest:Right.
Yeah.
Guest:But now Davis is much harder to get into, but they have a really cool thing where if you went there when you were young and you left on good terms, you can go back any time under the same requirements as when you left.
Guest:So my graduation requirements are much easier than what people who are getting a bachelor's in English at Davis have to do now.
Guest:But I can still go back and just finish under the old requirements.
Guest:No matter what.
Guest:And just automatically get back in because I left without having killed anyone or, you know, having any trouble.
Guest:Except I got, I had bad grades.
Guest:I got kicked out twice for bad grades and went back to summer school and then got back in.
Guest:I was very depressed and I wouldn't, didn't know it, didn't know that's what was wrong.
Marc:What was the feeling?
Marc:You just couldn't engage?
Marc:You didn't want to get out of bed?
Marc:You didn't?
Guest:Yeah, not... Friends, no friends?
Guest:I had friends in the dorms the first year I went to Davis, and I drank a good amount, and it was a great time, the drinking, and smoking pot, but I just had depression and then some...
Guest:issues with social friendships where sort of approaching the area of people with borderline personality disorder where it was hard for me to, there'd be a honeymoon period with people and then I would just be, if someone hurt my feelings or disappointed me, I'd be like, I never should have been friends with them in the first place.
Guest:Just kind of real extreme back and forth with people.
Marc:Do you think you had borderline?
Guest:I think that I had... Because that can go away, I hear.
Marc:It's one of those things that's very hard to treat, but it can adjust its way sort of into a manageable zone.
Guest:I definitely feel like I had tendencies towards that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't think I was all the way into having a full-on personality disorder because...
Guest:I probably wouldn't have been able to stick with my therapist so long if I had been too far into it.
Marc:Right, because you would have been manipulating them or onto them or fighting them.
Guest:Or just ending the relationship if something happened that hurt my feelings.
Guest:But when I first started, I've been seeing the same person off and on since I was 23.
Guest:Still?
Guest:Yes, yeah.
Guest:When I've moved away, I haven't seen her like when I lived in Texas because she's here.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And coincidentally, that's when my drinking went from weekends to every day.
Guest:So I wasn't in therapy when I was- In Texas?
Guest:Yeah, and drinking alcoholically.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you knew, like, so you were having trouble in school, you got kicked out, and you knew, you didn't know at that time that you had borderline tendencies, you just thought you were, it's like such a hard, I guess it's not that, like, nebulous, I mean, there are definitely characteristics of it, but I would think, because I need, I know I had similar things, but, like, I had attachment issues, though, like, I'd get very attached to people, like one friend, and then if they would, you know, I'd get very upset,
Marc:If they didn't want to hang out or that kind of stuff.
Guest:I've had some of that too.
Guest:But partly doing comedy helped because when you start doing stand-up, if you're not, you can even be kind of an asshole.
Guest:If you're not a total asshole, you just very quickly have a bunch of friends that are really fun to hang out with.
Marc:Yeah, because they're all gypsies and rogues and mentally fucked up.
Guest:Yeah, and a lot of people who enjoy drinking, which I did, so it was fun and easy to all of a sudden have a lot of friends, you know?
Marc:But why did you do, like, because I, all right, so this, so the Davis situation, so then you go back home after you get kicked out of school?
Guest:Right.
Marc:To Torrance, and you just flounder around for a few years?
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, I went back and moved in with my parents.
Marc:Do you get along with them?
Guest:At that time, I wasn't very close to them.
Guest:But they definitely helped save my life because I had a, I don't know what it would be called, but
Guest:In a period of depression, I was working in a medical office as an operator and just taking phone calls from people who weren't getting the benefits they needed, who were super sick and having to transfer them to someone who I knew was gonna tell them pretty much tough luck.
Guest:And it was a little windowless room and just that with my already existing depression, one day I just started crying.
Guest:Nothing had happened.
Guest:I just started crying and I went home and I never went back.
Guest:I didn't call him or anything.
Guest:I just went home and I cried that whole night until I fell asleep and then the whole next day and I didn't know why and I didn't know what was happening.
Guest:No trigger?
Guest:I don't remember anything unusual happening.
Guest:And then my parents were very scared.
Guest:I was living with them.
Guest:And my mom asked, I just remember going out to the kitchen and get a glass of water or something.
Guest:And my mom's saying, what's wrong?
Guest:Because I was crying.
Guest:And I said, I don't know.
Guest:And then the next day they were like, you have to go see a therapist immediately.
Guest:My mom's older sister had committed suicide when she was an adult.
Guest:And I think that she was scared.
Guest:And so that's when I met my therapist.
Guest:It was like their insistence that I go and I met this great woman who's changed my life.
Guest:You know, you have to work at it too.
Guest:it's both together working but she's like a great person.
Guest:I'm really lucky that I met her.
Marc:So mostly like after college you were just sort of home trying to get your shit together.
Guest:Yeah, and then when I started going to therapy, there was a period where I became very angry at my parents, and it was very visible, and they were like, well, you should probably get your own place.
Guest:And then it was just a few years of working waitressing, pizza delivery, office jobs.
Marc:In LA or in Torrance?
Guest:In LA, yeah.
Guest:My twin had moved up to LA, and so I moved near her.
Marc:Was she in show business?
Guest:No.
Marc:Did she like you moving near her?
Guest:Yeah, we were pretty, we fought a lot, but we were also very attached.
Guest:So I lived a few blocks from where she lived.
Guest:And then in that neighborhood was this place called Pedersen's, which was a coffee shop.
Guest:And they had, Vance Sanders had a, every Tuesday night had a comedy open mic.
Guest:And that's where I started going right before I turned 30.
Guest:And I met Zach and Tig and Maria Bamford, Jackie Cation, like a bunch of people that.
Marc:Before you went to Austin?
Guest:Yes, yeah.
Guest:That was two years before I went to Austin is when I started that.
Marc:What year?
Guest:So that's like... 98 was when I started going to stand-up.
Marc:So it seems like Zach would have just gotten out here-ish, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And Tig, I don't really know her history.
Marc:Who was the other one?
Marc:Oh, Bamford.
Guest:Bamford.
Marc:She must not have been out.
Marc:Well, maybe she was out here for a while, but that was just post-alt comedy kind of.
Marc:That was the beginning of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that's really the first time after you'd gone up once or twice a year at the Laugh Factory that you came upon this place.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because my sister worked there.
Guest:And so I would visit her sometimes at work and I noticed like they're having comedy on Tuesday nights.
Guest:So I started going just to watch.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and was very excited by how many funny people were there and intimidated, too.
Guest:But they just were different.
Guest:In comedy clubs, sometimes it seemed like, at least at the Laugh Factory, it seemed like the audience responds much more to your confidence than your material.
Guest:I mean, they want good material, too, but you have to...
Marc:Right.
Marc:There's not a lot of they don't indulge you that much.
Marc:You better deliver something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when the whole audience is mostly comedians, they want material that's different from anything they've heard before more than attitude.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's a great place to start because it makes you work hard on writing stuff that's unique to you.
Marc:So you started doing it.
Guest:Yeah, and I started drinking before I went.
Guest:That was the other key.
Guest:I didn't do that at Laugh Factory, but I figured out at Pedersen's, I'll drink before I go up.
Guest:And then my stage fright was mostly gone.
Marc:It worked.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you're highly structured with your jokes.
Marc:You don't riff a lot.
Guest:Yeah, I don't.
Guest:Sometimes I will think, maybe I could...
Guest:And then every time, like, nope, don't riff.
Guest:Not good at it.
Guest:I'm really, really bad at it.
Guest:It's painful.
Marc:But I remember, like, so this is 98, and you started doing it, you know, at least weekly, getting a little buzz on and doing your jokes, you know, in front of a room full of, you know, a new generation of comics that thought differently about comics.
Marc:You had a little peer group there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But I remember like you did.
Marc:See, I had this idea.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:Did you do Letterman?
Guest:No.
Marc:You did Conan.
Guest:I did Conan.
Guest:At NBC though, right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then, yeah.
Guest:The year before the year that Letterman announced he was retiring.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The comedy booker emailed me asking if I would want to submit a set and I was at a really bad place.
Guest:That was 2013 or 14, but I was like 50 pounds overweight.
Guest:out of control eating disorder, just barely holding on to sobriety, really depressed.
Guest:It was like Letterman was the biggest deal to me.
Guest:That would have been, he was one of my idols, but I can't even attempt to go on TV when I feel like Jabba the Hutt.
Guest:So it was like I waited a year before I even tried to get a set, and then he had announced he was retiring.
Guest:And that was hard to get a set.
Guest:No, I'm not saying I would have, even if he hadn't, but just that I, but I, yeah, it just, but I love him.
Guest:I love him.
Marc:I did too, yeah.
Marc:He's not dead, he's just out.
Marc:But no, for some reason I had it in my head that the mythology of Martha Kelly was that you'd done comedy, you did Conan, and then for some reason I decided that you disappeared entirely.
Guest:Well, I kind of did when I quit drinking for a couple years.
Guest:I didn't do stand-up at all.
Marc:Oh, that must be it.
Marc:So when do you decide and why do you decide to move to Austin from here?
Guest:Well, it's a little embarrassing of a rationale, but a lot of it was drinking.
Guest:I just didn't know it, but...
Guest:After doing stand-up for almost two years.
Guest:Here, at Pedersen's.
Guest:Here, in my kind of entitled opinion, I wasn't progressing as much as I thought I should be here.
Guest:And I couldn't get any auditions for like Aspen or Montreal.
Marc:You didn't have any representation.
Guest:Now, knowing at two years of doing stand-up, that's really very, very short amount of time to be doing stand-up.
Guest:But I just felt like, hey, I've been doing this for a while now.
Guest:I should get to go to festivals or get stuff.
Guest:And you couldn't get showcases here without a manager.
Guest:So but in other cities Aspen was holding these open call auditions.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like oh I'll just get in the back door I'll go to fly to one of those cities.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Austin was having one and my friend Laura House.
Marc:Sure I know her.
Guest:She used to live there, and so I asked her what she thought.
Guest:She was like, yeah, and she was gonna be there that same week for the Austin Film Festival.
Guest:And then she had a couple friends that she was gonna stay with, and she asked them if I could stay with them.
Guest:And we all, it was two guys, Ray Pruitt and Colby Turner, who I still love to death, but we stayed with them.
Guest:They let me stay with them.
Guest:I was a complete stranger.
Guest:and um they were really welcoming comics uh no um ray was like did some sketch and improv stuff and acting but he wasn't a stand-up and colby worked in computers yeah but they had gone to college together and um we just drank and had a great time and the audition was the process was fun i didn't make it to aspen but i had a lot of fun and
Guest:was really excited by the Austin community, the comedians that I met, and everyone drank for real.
Guest:To me, what it felt like out here, and I still think this might be true, when performers go to parties in LA and drink, they still try to keep a professional, no one's just like, fuck it, let's get wasted, because you don't know if someone you might want to work with is at the party.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But in Texas, people, it's about having as good of a time as you can.
Marc:Not going to run into anybody that you might want to work with in Texas, necessarily.
Guest:Yeah, there's no industry there.
Guest:And there's...
Guest:Plenty of booze.
Guest:Plenty of booze.
Marc:So this is like 2001?
Guest:This was the end of 99.
Guest:So I started doing stand-up at Pedersen's in January of 98, and then October, the end of almost two years later, October of 99, I went to Austin, I loved it.
Guest:I also had a crush on Colby.
Guest:I was like, a lot of alcoholics were like, hey, I should just move to this place because I had a good weekend there.
Guest:And I did.
Guest:How'd it go?
Guest:Overall, I'm really glad I did it because some really fun things happened with comedy there.
Guest:And I think that my drinking accelerated at such a rapid pace that I ended up getting sober
Guest:earlier than I might have if I had been able to control it longer.
Marc:Did I run into you in Austin ever?
Guest:I know we had met before, but I saw you once when you did this show, this podcast live during South by Southwest a few years ago.
Guest:Didn't you do it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, you were on the podcast.
Guest:Yeah, with Lucas.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I always knew you were sort of around, but were you living in Austin when we did that podcast?
Marc:No.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So I moved there in the beginning of 2000.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Moved back here at the very end of 2003.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Because my life was going down the toilet because of my drinking.
Guest:I was months behind in rent.
Guest:I was hardly doing stand-up.
Marc:What were you drinking?
Marc:What was your drink?
Marc:Just beer?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Miller Lite.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So that was so, if you're like a serious beer drunk, your apartment probably was pretty ugly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:A lot of bottles.
Guest:I had four cats and a dog.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And just, I was just living, not functioning really.
Guest:Like a case a day?
Guest:No, because I have a low tolerance for alcohol, so I could get very drunk on six beers.
Guest:Six pack a day.
Guest:Yeah, and then towards the end, like between six and eight, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Unless you're drinking natural light beer, in which case you can drink it all night and not get too drunk, but mostly Miller Lite.
Guest:And then my parents, I kept borrowing money from them.
Guest:I got fired.
Guest:I lost weeks at comedy clubs on the road because they had heard that I was shitty because I would get drunk before I performed.
Guest:And...
Guest:I mean, that's not the only reason.
Guest:I also would bomb a lot of times on the road even if I wasn't drunk.
Marc:We have a very specific thing.
Marc:Your energy is what it is.
Marc:It's not going to shift.
Guest:Right, not even if there's an emergency.
Guest:It's still pretty much the same.
Marc:What were you working, a feature?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that started to crumble.
Guest:Yeah, and so my parents finally uncharacteristically said, if you move back to California,
Guest:And if you agree to go to counseling with us because of your money problems, they didn't know I had a drinking problem.
Guest:And I wasn't aware of my drinking.
Guest:And you're in your 30s.
Guest:Yeah, I was 35.
Marc:So this is not, it's embarrassing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But also just being in denial.
Guest:I drink several light beers a night.
Guest:I don't drink during the day.
Guest:I've never had a DUI.
Guest:All the reasons alcoholics, you'll find whatever evidence you need.
Guest:They said they'd help me move into a place of my own out here and pay for three months of rent and groceries if I would go to counseling with them.
Marc:And you weren't feeling depressed.
Guest:I was, but I just thought it was because life was really unfair.
Guest:I didn't connect it.
Guest:I thought I should drink less, but I thought I'm not an alcoholic, so my options are really I have to be the one to control it.
Guest:And then moving out here thinking, well, I'll go back to drinking like I did in 99 when I left.
Marc:Which was what?
Marc:Three beers?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I would go to I would go out and I would drink two to three beers as fast as I could and not eat dinner.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Have a great buzz.
Guest:And then within a couple hours, it wears off enough to kind of safely drive home.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that's mostly what I was doing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're a good planner.
Guest:Yeah, I'm very afraid to let go of control.
Marc:And you don't have alcoholism in your family?
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:You grew up with it.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So you're here three months.
Guest:And within two and a half months of being back, my drinking accelerated again so quickly and was so much worse even than when I left Austin.
Guest:That's when December 20th of 2003 is when I was like,
Guest:I can't drink anymore.
Guest:I still didn't know if I was an alcoholic.
Guest:I thought I probably wasn't an alcoholic, but it hit me like for years, I either don't drink at all or I get drunk every night.
Guest:I've not been able to be moderate.
Marc:But you grew up with it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You knew what it looked like.
Guest:Yeah, and my twin sister had been in rehab.
Guest:But my idea of people with a problem was people whose behavior while under the influence hurt other people.
Guest:And when I drank, I wasn't that different from how I am right now.
Guest:As I said earlier, I had some relationship problems that were
Guest:similar to people with borderline, and so I did hurt people, but it wasn't while drunk, it was just in life, you know?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Well, who was alcoholic in your house?
Guest:My dad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So your model for it was like, if I'm not being emotionally abusive.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If I'm not having blackouts and yelling at people.
Guest:If I don't have a DUI.
Guest:If no one in my life is telling me you need to slow down.
Guest:It's not a problem.
Guest:But if you have...
Guest:similar personality to borderline, then you don't have anyone close enough to tell you your drinking bothers them.
Guest:So that was sort of a facilitator.
Guest:And all the friends I had that I wasn't super close to, they all drank too.
Marc:And when you're drinking with other people, drinking, no one thinks they're an alcoholic until one falls off.
Marc:And you're like, I didn't think it was that bad.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, a lot of people told me, oh, you didn't drink that much.
Guest:I was like, I'm just a low-functioning alcoholic.
Guest:And with the depression, it made it even harder to function.
Guest:But the good thing is the depression probably helped me get sober sooner.
Marc:So once you got back here and your folks are helping you out and the drinking escalates and you just hit that wall, then that's when you got sober?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And he stayed sober.
Guest:Yeah, I've been, I just, celebrate is a strong term, but I just marked 13 years of sobriety.
Guest:Congratulations.
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's the only, it's my only alternative if I want to have any kind of life, so I'm really happy.
Guest:Even though I don't sound happy, I am happy to be sober.
Guest:It was hard in the beginning.
Guest:I didn't like it at all.
Marc:Yeah, I have 17 years, and like, yeah, the first five years are, you know, it's crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you don't know what to do with yourself.
Guest:Yeah, it's so uncomfortable to be around people.
Guest:Even people in...
Marc:Yeah, in the secret meetings.
Guest:In the secret meetings.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah, that's the worst at the beginning.
Marc:I used to yell and scream, and I'm very dramatic, and I just made my life complete chaos.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You don't seem like the type for that.
Guest:Not, no, but my life remained in the toilet for a while, into sobriety, partly because I had the untreated depression.
Guest:So I still, even though I wasn't hungover,
Guest:I still was barely working.
Guest:I was an internet copywriter, a search engine, optimization is what they called it, copywriter, where you just write 100 pages using the same keywords over and over to try and boost web traffic.
Guest:The search engines have gotten so sophisticated that that job doesn't exist anymore.
Guest:But back in the early 2000s,
Guest:But I was so depressed I was hardly working and I moved back in with my parents at almost a year sober.
Guest:But that ended up being good too because that's where I met the group of people that became the group that helped me come to life again.
Guest:Secret meetings, you know?
Marc:Sure, you found one.
Guest:And then a couple years later, my niece and nephew were born and my parents, who I was living with, became their daycare when their mom went back to work.
Guest:Your sister?
Guest:No, my brother.
Guest:And the couple years when they were babies and I was seeing them every day all day were like some of the sweetest, most fun things.
Guest:I didn't think it would be.
Guest:I wasn't happy to find out there's going to be a baby in the house every day.
Guest:And then really quickly was like, oh my God, I had no idea how fun babies are.
Guest:And probably because of the age I was, I think it just activated that biological instinct that not all women have, and some men have it, or a lot of men have it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I definitely have it.
Guest:I just didn't know until I was forced to be with a baby.
Guest:And I was like, this is the best.
Guest:This is really literally what I was made for.
Guest:So now you're the cool aunt, huh?
Guest:I don't think they think I'm cool, but I am taking them to Disneyland next weekend, so I'm working on it.
Guest:How old are they?
Guest:They just turned 9 and 10.
Guest:The girl is 10, the boy is 9.
Guest:Yeah, I hardly told anybody about baskets because I am self-conscious and afraid I was going to be terrible.
Guest:So I didn't go around telling my friends and family, hey, this show's coming out.
Guest:But I did tell my niece and nephew because I wanted to impress them and they couldn't give less of a shit.
Guest:That's who you chose to tell?
Guest:Yeah, and they don't care at all.
Guest:They've seen the show, which I told my brother, don't let them watch it anymore.
Guest:It's not a kid's show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because when I came back to visit after one of the times after the whole season had ended and they'd seen it, my nephew, the first thing he said to me was, did you really have sex with that guy in the van?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:why are you letting them watch this isn't appropriate but so all right but then okay so you didn't you didn't think it was panning out quite right so you go back to austin and then you enter another different type of addictive hell then my eating disorder was that new uh other than not eating and just drinking beer
Guest:Um, no, in early sobriety, I just, I gained a lot of weight and then I joined.
Guest:That's not unusual though.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But for me, it takes over everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, uh, yeah, there are people who drank more than I do.
Guest:Who's the,
Guest:whose lives are not in the toilet and who eat more and weigh more, but their whole life doesn't revolve around when can I get rid of all these, my parents go to bed or leave my friends and go home and eat in secret.
Guest:And I joined a secret group that was very rigid and I was really hungry all the time because you hardly eat anything and lost a bunch of weight but was even more crazy about-
Guest:Similar, yeah, in that family.
Guest:And then left it and then I moved to Austin and was like, I bet I can eat sugar again in a different state.
Guest:I can control it, I'm sure.
Guest:And then like 50 pounds later, finally went back, came back here, went off my antidepressants for a while because I read.
Guest:Wait, when did you get on those?
Guest:We didn't cover that.
Guest:How long in sobriety?
Guest:I'd been a little over, I think, four years sober.
Guest:And you started taking them because?
Guest:Because, again, my parents kind of did a bit of an intervention because I was living with them.
Guest:And they had seen me.
Guest:I thought if I lose weight, that'll make me happy.
Guest:And it didn't.
Guest:And I just was like...
Guest:not really living and didn't realize it.
Guest:And my mom, who just a heads up, passed away about three weeks ago.
Guest:So she's on my mind a lot, of course, and that was another time where she was the one who was like,
Guest:You need to go and get help.
Guest:You're not living.
Guest:And so I did.
Guest:But then a few years later after just becoming like an all night binger, sleep all day in Austin.
Marc:Food.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How does one binge all night on food?
Guest:You go to a convenience store.
Guest:Hopefully you go to different ones every day so the clerks don't know how much you're eating.
Guest:And then get a bunch of candy and cookies and chips and a video from Redbox.
Guest:That's what I would do.
Guest:Go back to your apartment and just kind of surround yourself with the food and eat and watch a video until the sun came up a lot of times.
Guest:Just...
Guest:Once it got into a cycle that kind of started with my dog dying of a really aggressive cancer.
Guest:And then my mom almost dying.
Guest:These are both in 2012.
Guest:She went in the hospital.
Guest:And that started this anxiety and insomnia that I'd never had before.
Guest:And that merged with the binging on sugar and stuff and I got into a cycle where I would just stay up all night eating and watching videos and then sleep all day and then get up and do it again and couldn't stop and didn't know what was wrong with me.
Marc:And he just kept putting on weight.
Guest:Yeah, because candy and cookies and pizza and hamburgers are packed with calories.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, okay, so that's what that looks like.
Guest:So when you went off your antidepressants, that's what happened.
Guest:That's how you medicated yourself.
Guest:Well, I was still on antidepressants for 2012 and then got evicted and my car got repossessed because again, I wasn't working.
Guest:I had an online job where you set your own hours, so I just didn't work.
Guest:And got kicked out of my apartment, moved back in with my parents out here
Guest:50 pounds heavier.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, maybe around 40.
Guest:And then once I started going to a more, what I think is a more practical secret group for compulsive eaters, for a while I continued to gain weight after going there.
Guest:So in the end, it was probably like, when Zach called me about the pilot for baskets, I was like 50 pounds overweight and was like, there's no way I can do this, you know?
Marc:But when he called you, so we're up to like what, 2015?
Guest:He called me January of 2014.
Marc:Out of nowhere?
Guest:Out of nowhere.
Guest:I moved back here in January of 2013, and I'd seen him twice, I think, that year.
Guest:Once at Largo, once when he was doing the Oscar Between Two Ferns edition.
Yeah.
Guest:And then I hadn't seen him.
Guest:And then he just left me a message in January of 2014 saying, I'm going to do this show.
Guest:Want to see if you want to be a part on it.
Guest:You probably don't want to do it, but just call me if you do.
Guest:And yeah.
Marc:And you called him and said, I can't.
Guest:I said, I can't act.
Guest:And he said, you don't have to, you just say the lines the way you would if it were you in real life.
Guest:And I still thought I'm just gonna freeze and get fired.
Guest:But I also, because Zach was so, he's like, even though he's a couple years younger than me, he is like a big brother in our relationship where he made me feel like,
Guest:I could try it, and at worst, if he had to fire me, I knew he would do it as nicely as he could, and he wouldn't make me feel like I'd let him down, even though I thought that's what's gonna happen.
Marc:But you said initially that you couldn't do it because you felt like you were too heavy?
Guest:Well, I thought, he called me in January, he said we'd shoot the pilot in May, and so I thought that's enough time to lose 50 pounds.
Yeah.
Guest:which it wasn't i didn't even become abstinent from compulsive eating in this other group until like a month before we started shooting but because i had started that i knew like i'm on my way to getting back to a normal weight and and i'm able to
Guest:participate in what's going on instead of thinking when can i sneak off to craft services and who's noticing how much i'm eating that kind of stuff yeah um so it was really grounding for you it was yeah and it was really fun and then when i saw it and saw how big i was i was not happy but i was like you know if they get if it gets a full season i'll be farther along by that time and
Guest:I'll just keep working towards it.
Guest:And TV shows are not the most important thing in life.
Guest:Like being a healthy, fairly happy person is what matters.
Marc:So now, but the food, how, because I have weird issues around body image and food because my mother had eating disorder, still does.
Marc:But she manages, but she goes the other way.
Marc:But she's a compulsive eater.
Marc:But what I meant was when you're on set and stuff, there's something exciting about craft services.
Guest:Yeah, very exciting.
Guest:It's like a free convenience store.
Marc:And you know it's there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you try to manage...
Marc:You know, but like it almost becomes, like there were times where I was on set, both for my show and the show I shot before, where I was like, you know, like as soon as you hear like there's pizza there or something, that moment where you're like, come on, let's just get the scene done so we can have pizza or what's out there.
Marc:I always have this thing where I'm afraid the food's gonna run out.
Marc:Do you ever get that?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:It's the worst.
Marc:I have that and there's no, it's not going to.
Marc:There's no,
Guest:But yeah, if I wasn't in recovery and not just... I don't eat sugar and flour at all.
Guest:If I wasn't doing that, I wouldn't have been able to concentrate on anything because there's an actual truck full of delicious junk food all day, every day.
Guest:And then they get snacks on top of that and then meals on top of that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it would have been...
Guest:Full meals.
Guest:Yeah, it would have been, I couldn't have, I would have been probably fired if I had been in the food, as they call it, because that's all I would have cared about.
Guest:Yeah, it's so powerful and people don't realize it.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, but again, there are people who eat pizza all the time and are, by doctor's standards, may be overweight, but they're happy and their lives don't revolve around the pizza.
Guest:They just like to eat it and don't care that, you know.
Marc:People that don't have...
Marc:compulsive problems around things.
Marc:I envy them and there's nothing, what are we gonna do?
Marc:Make them feel bad?
Guest:I feel like because you kind of have to have some kind of faith of some kind to be in any kind of recovery, you can be atheist or agnostic and just put your faith in the group.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you have to have some kind of faith in something outside yourself.
Guest:That improves my quality of life.
Guest:That alone, not thinking everything's up to me, makes me a lot happier.
Marc:To get rid of some of that control.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Or the idea of control.
Guest:I don't know if I ever would have gotten that if I didn't have addiction.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:So that's one positive thing about it.
Marc:Yeah, there's a lot of positive things about it.
Marc:And so the second season is starting now?
Guest:Or is it the third?
Guest:The second season starts on the 19th.
Marc:So you shot it all.
Guest:We shot it all.
Marc:And it's all in the can.
Guest:It's all almost in the can.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:They're still doing editing on some of the later episodes.
Guest:Because we wrapped November 30th.
Marc:Okay, so now, so you do the first season and you're, are you in every episode?
Guest:A little bit in every episode and then more in it in some of them.
Marc:Yeah, and the second one too?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you're funny?
Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't see what anyone else sees if they like it.
Guest:I really don't.
Marc:I understand what you're saying.
Marc:But people do like it.
Marc:It's an interesting show.
Marc:It's odd.
Marc:You show up for yourself very well.
Marc:Did you get more comfortable with it?
Marc:As time went on?
Marc:Do you like doing it?
Guest:I love doing it.
Guest:I love spending all day with Zach and Jonathan Kreisel and Louis and the crew.
Guest:You get to spend all day with really nice people.
Guest:And if you're one of the actors, everyone treats you like you're precious.
Guest:So it's hard not to enjoy everyone treating you like they think you're terrific.
Yeah.
Guest:Even though you know that's part of what they have to do, because some actors are dicks, and if you have to pretend to like them, no matter what, I think.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:I've never been on another show.
Guest:I think that's right.
Guest:But by the end of the first season, I felt like we'd all had time to really get to know each other.
Marc:So Louie's producing.
Marc:Zach created it and is doing a lot of the writing.
Yeah.
Guest:Zach is part of the writer's room, but it's him, Jonathan Kreisel, who's the director, showrunner, and then they had, I think, three or four other writers who I love.
Marc:And Louis Anderson is amazing.
Marc:He was here.
Marc:He won an Emmy.
Guest:Yeah, and he's amazing.
Guest:He's really great.
Marc:He's sweetheart, right?
Guest:Yeah, he has a good heart.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he, from the very first time I met him on the pilot, he just treated me like a co-worker.
Guest:I was very intimidated to work with him because he also improvs a lot and he's great at it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I freeze when...
Guest:They go off script.
Guest:And he never made me feel like a dummy, even though I was and still am a dummy a lot of times.
Guest:But he's always been really nice.
Marc:You've known for a long time you're not a riffer.
Guest:Yeah, I'm not.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:On the pilot, one of the times that Louis, I'd never done anything like this before.
Guest:Louis started riffing.
Guest:He asked me, in character asked me a question and I couldn't think of anything to say.
Guest:So there was just a long pause and then I yelled cut.
Guest:And then they laughed, but they were also like, you can't yell cut.
Guest:Only the director can say cut.
Guest:But I just panicked.
Marc:But it seems like Zach knew exactly what you were going to do with this part and that it is you.
Marc:So whatever you're bringing to it in your discomfort is working for the show.
Guest:I think the writers and Jonathan make it work, really.
Guest:They make it seem like...
Guest:I'm doing something when really, I really, I meant to do more this season because for season one, all I could think to do is just always know my lines when I show up so I'm not bumming anyone out by making it a longer day and then be nice to everybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and then do whatever they asked me to do.
Guest:And then it occurred to me because of a few times getting direction about like you're supposed to be feeling something.
Guest:Like okay season two I'm gonna think about the scenes and what I'm supposed to be feeling but this is not to be a bummer but the first day we filmed my mom had just gone back into the hospital and that's when I found out she was dying.
Marc:For season two.
Guest:Yeah, so I didn't do anything more than just learn my lines again and try to be nice to everybody and do whatever they asked me to do.
Guest:But that's why I feel like really it's the people I work with that made it seem like anything, like I was doing anything.
Guest:I wouldn't know what to do without them.
Marc:Of course, but I think you don't give yourself enough credit.
Marc:You're a little hard on yourself, and you are very specific, and you do have something that you do naturally that is working in the show.
Guest:I'm glad that they, I'm really glad that they have me on it, but honestly, I'm coming from a history of periods of feeling entitled for no reason, entitled to stuff, entitled to... Well, now it's like you're working.
Guest:Yeah, but I don't want to go back into thinking, oh, I'm doing this.
Guest:I'm the reason this is happening.
Guest:Because when I do that, I will very shortly go into, well, where's my fucking everything else?
Guest:I want everything.
Guest:I kind of still...
Marc:Right, you gotta find a middle zone.
Guest:I'm much happier feeling like I found, like one time I found $20 on the sidewalk and it made me way happier than any I've ever earned.
Guest:I've had $20 an hour jobs.
Guest:I never felt that happy.
Guest:But when you so feeling like I know that Zach has never made me feel like he's doing me a favor.
Guest:He always makes it seem like I'm doing him a favor because he's a dear person, you know.
Guest:But I'm way happier feeling like I stumbled into a lottery.
Guest:And it's made my life better for a lot of reasons, not just professionally, but it is the sole reason I have anything going on right now with stand-up or anything.
Guest:I wouldn't know my manager if it wasn't for baskets, and she helps me a lot, but I would never have even met her.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I understand.
Marc:So you feel like you got lucky.
Guest:I'm super lucky.
Guest:But I'm lucky like I was lucky when I met my therapist in my 20s when I found my home group of the secret meetings.
Guest:And I'm a very lucky person.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:But, you know, you've had a rough go at life and somehow or another, you know, you did choose comedy.
Marc:you know it's not some freak thing that you know that's not it's lucky to a certain degree but you know somewhere in the midst of all this darkness and you know beer and food you decided that your salvation was comedy somehow you know that you know that's not nothing to choose to do comedy and
Marc:I mean, I know a lot of us are neurotic or compulsive or depressive or whatever, angry, but we do choose this ridiculous profession to go up there in front of strangers and make ourselves vulnerable, even though we may not think we're doing that.
Marc:We're all alone up there.
Marc:It's a very terrifying thing to most mortals.
Marc:And you do it.
Marc:You chose that.
Marc:Do you ever think back as to why?
Marc:Why did you choose that given your particular demeanor and brain?
Guest:I remember, I think, well, really quick, I do want to say about depression.
Guest:I'm on a new and better and super cheap because it's a really old one and it's changed my life.
Guest:I just want to say that because sometimes people have depression and they get the wrong antidepressant and then they feel like there's no hope.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it took me a while, but there is hope.
Guest:I just want to say that for anyone listening who has depression.
Guest:But when I was at Davis.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:close to getting kicked out and feeling like I don't want to do anything.
Guest:I don't care about anything.
Guest:Not knowing that was depression.
Guest:But you were suicidal?
Guest:Yeah, I would be periodically feel suicidal.
Guest:And I just one day was thinking like...
Guest:What would I do if I could do anything I wanted?
Guest:Not thinking I can do it, but what would I want to do?
Guest:And just remembering in high school, senior year, being in the school play that was a comedy and having a hugely fun time.
Guest:Also because the after parties had beer and pot.
Yeah.
Guest:And but but just that was the only good time I had in high school was doing that.
Guest:And I realized, like, I loved that feeling.
Guest:So that's what I want to do.
Guest:And I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I'll try to get that way back to that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The feeling of what community has been something, but the feeling of making people laugh.
Guest:It's so unlike anything else in the world to do stand-up when it goes well.
Guest:And when it doesn't go well, it's also not like anything.
Guest:It's the pain unlike any.
Guest:Yeah, it's all on you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they, and you can, you can, some people are really good at being like, oh, this crowd, I'm just not their cup of tea.
Guest:No big deal.
Guest:It's just another show.
Guest:But I always feel like these people hate me because I'm garbage and it sucks, you know, but the, when it goes well, it's so feels so good that it's worth that risk, you know?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You still don't know how anything's going to be received or if there's going to be another season or if,
Guest:When Baskets ends, it's totally possible in this industry that everything could dry up all at once and I could have to get another $20 an hour day job.
Guest:But I feel like...
Marc:Or you could just walk around hoping you find $20.
Guest:Walk around however far it takes to find that.
Guest:Magic 20.
Guest:That magical 20.
Guest:But yeah, just I probably when that happens, we'll move back to Austin just because it's a little cheaper.
Guest:And I love that.
Marc:Let's not make plans about when everything falls apart.
Guest:I just always feel like everything probably will fall apart.
Guest:That just is my assumption.
Guest:And whatever.
Guest:I'm much happier when I'm not living in an obsessive compulsive spiral.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Of one kind or another.
Guest:I'd rather be free no matter what effort I have to put into it.
Guest:And it still is relatively little effort.
Guest:It's not like you have to, it's not like going to the gym every day to be in recovery.
Guest:It's just not that much.
Guest:It's not that hard if you do it consistently.
Guest:That's true.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:You go in the gym.
Guest:No, but I'm working up the nerve to try Bikram yoga again because it's the only, what do you call it?
Guest:It's the only, not extreme, but strenuous exercise I ever really liked.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I'm working up the nerve to try it again.
Guest:Because it's kind of unpleasant at first because it's really hot.
Marc:Right, that's the whole idea.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Maybe you should do a couple of regular yoga classes and then go to the...
Guest:I just feel like regular yoga is a waste of time because it doesn't hurt.
Marc:Yeah, no, I agree.
Marc:I always kind of hurt myself.
Guest:That's what I'm a little afraid of because I'm 48, and when I did it before, I was like early 40s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I am going to continue to age until I die, so I may as well start somewhere.
Marc:Yeah, I think that's probably a good reason to do anything.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Proactive anyways.
Yeah.
Guest:Just, yeah, because the more you take care of yourself while you still can, the less bed bound you are in old age, I think.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:This is a fun way to end.
Guest:I can tell we're getting close to.
Marc:Yeah, it's nice.
Marc:It was a very uplifting, practical end.
Marc:And now I'll try to gossip with you off mic.
Guest:Yeah, I love Hollywood gossip.
Marc:I don't have a lot.
Guest:I don't have any.
Guest:I'm out of the loop.
Guest:Whatever you have will be more than what I have.
Marc:I'm out of the loop.
Marc:But I will tell you what I know.
Guest:Okay, that sounds great.
Marc:Thanks, Martha.
Guest:Thanks, Mark.
Marc:All right, that was Martha.
Marc:Watch Baskets tonight, every Thursday night.
Marc:And now I'm going to play guitar and give you a little something else with that.
Guest:People ask me, what's the thing you've learned most as president?
Guest:And I tell them, I don't know that this is something I learned, but it is something that has been confirmed.
Guest:The American people are overwhelmingly good, decent, generous people.
Guest:And I can say that because I meet a lot of people.
Guest:You see folks from all walks of life.
Guest:You don't just talk to your supporters.
Guest:You meet people who don't like you, didn't vote for you.
Guest:Everybody that I meet believes in a lot of the same things.
Guest:They believe in honesty and family and community and looking out for one another.
Guest:So the issue is not the American people.
Guest:That's where my faith is.
Guest:The question is, how do we build...
Guest:institutions and connections that allow the goodness, decency, common sense, ordinary folks to express itself in the decisions that are made about how the country moves forward.
Guest:When you wake up every day, you say to yourself, are things a little bit better?
Guest:And if you take that long view, then you're less nervous or stressed about the day-to-day ups and downs, and you kind of just start blocking that stuff out because you're staying focused on your ultimate destination.
Marc:You can just block it out, obviously.
Guest:You have to.
Guest:I have learned...
Guest:not to worry about the day-to-day and to stay focused on what I need to do for the American people long-term.
Guest:And now, look, some of it's temperament.
Guest:I always say part of this is just being born in Hawaii.
Guest:It's really nice.
Guest:I was just there in Kauai.
Guest:Yeah, you feel better.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I feel like that fortified me so that I just, you know, there's a certain element of chill.
Guest:You've got a Hawaii in the mind.
Guest:You've got a little Hawaii in the mind.
.
.
.
Guest:i guess the last thing is you lose you lose fear part of that fearlessness is because you've screwed up enough times sure that you know that it's all happened it's it's all happened i've been through this right i've screwed up right i've been in the barrel tumbling down niagara falls yeah and uh and you know i emerged and i lived and and that's always a
Guest:That's such a liberating feeling.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Right?
Guest:It's one of the benefits of age.
Guest:It almost compensates for the fact that I can't play basketball anymore.
Well, good.
Guest:Boomer lives!