Episode 774 - Martha Plimpton / Laurie Kilmartin
Guest:All right, let's do this.
Guest:How are you?
Guest:What the fuckers?
Guest:What the fuck buddies?
Guest:What the fucking ears?
Guest:What the fuck a doodles?
Marc:Yeah, threw a new one in there.
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:WTF?
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:Martha Plimpton is on the show.
Marc:And also I did a short interview with my friend Lori Kilmartin.
Marc:whose new special, 45 Jokes About My Dead Dad, is on CISO.com.
Marc:Lori and I go way back to the Bay Area.
Marc:She's a writer at Conan O'Brien.
Marc:Always one of my favorite comics.
Marc:And I like her company.
Marc:And she's solid.
Marc:She did WTF a while back.
Marc:It's good stuff.
Marc:Oh, you know what I wanted to say?
Marc:As some of you know...
Marc:The Bruce Springsteen episode picked up a lot of traction.
Marc:We obviously did some lifting for the cable news world.
Marc:And he gets out there in this way, this click-baity sort of way, where I don't know if people really engaged.
Marc:I know most of you did.
Marc:Most of the Bruce fans did, and certainly people who listen to this show did.
Marc:But what clickbait diminishes and pulling a couple of quotes that Bruce made about Trump out of that interview is it sort of diminishes...
Marc:the the the scope and breadth of the interview that was a very unique and uh compelling and deep conversation with a great artist that just gets caught up in this whirlwind of cable news bullshit and you know it's sort of like i know a lot of people enjoyed a lot of people listen to it but it sort of it bums me out because i hope that people go listen to it i hope they just don't respond
Marc:to, you know, like clickbait garbage or this segment.
Marc:They go listen to the whole thing.
Marc:It was a sweet hour with Bruce Springsteen.
Marc:It's like a very memorable thing for me to go out to Jersey and talk to him.
Marc:So I hope you enjoyed it.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I just picked up a copy of the Wild, the Innocent and the East Street Shuffles.
Marc:That was called.
Marc:I didn't have that one.
Marc:I listened to that the other day and it's great.
Marc:It's great going back into the old Bruce catalog.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:Listen, the garbage people are coming.
Marc:And by that, I don't mean there's some sort of weird army of pirates and evildoers on the horizon.
Marc:Literally, the garbage trucks are out there.
Marc:Thank God.
Marc:You never know with the holiday thing.
Marc:Are they going to come the day after?
Marc:When are they coming?
Marc:I went to the doctor.
Marc:Maybe that's what I should do.
Marc:That's what I should do right now is tell all you guys who are like 50 or in your 50s who are avoiding the doctor because you have a fear of fingers.
Marc:Go.
Marc:Go get your yearly checkup.
Marc:Don't die of something stupid.
Marc:Don't die of something preventable.
Marc:I panic and I go and I'm going to go get another test.
Marc:But everything tests out fine and I'm okay.
Marc:Thank you for asking.
Marc:But go, will you?
Marc:Go get the checkup if you can.
Marc:I guess that's as good a way as any to evolve into this conversation with that.
Marc:I have with my friend Lori Kilmartin, whose special is it's sort of a bit documentary, a bit comedy special, but all revolves around her father's death from from lung cancer.
Marc:And I have not had to deal with that yet.
Marc:And I imagine it's coming if I don't go first.
Marc:And I thought it was a very interesting way.
Marc:It was a very honest way and a very bold way for a comedian to deal with the death of a parent.
Marc:couple years ago uh when she was almost you know obsessively tweeting about her father's hospice care and dealing with her father's illness as a way to cope for herself but i i believe it helped other people i believed it it certainly helped her it might have helped her old man but the special is sort of uh you know talking a bit about that and then moving into the actual performance of these jokes that revolve around this
Marc:This very real theme that a lot of us seem to avoid.
Marc:And so I was excited that I thought to give her a call and have this chat with her.
Marc:So this is me and Lori Kilmartin.
Marc:This special you did is like half doc almost or a quarter doc.
Guest:I think it's a third doc.
Marc:A third doc.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then like two thirds would be the stand up.
Marc:Stand up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I watched it.
Marc:You did.
Marc:I did.
Marc:I watched it.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:I know you told me like I didn't have to watch it, but why would I do that to you?
Guest:Well, because you're a comic.
Guest:I would never want or demand or expect a comic to watch a comedy special.
Marc:I know, but I know you.
Marc:I like you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's not like you're some person that just shot me an email like, hey.
Marc:Just watch my special.
Guest:I know, but still, you know.
Marc:And also, it's very compelling, the angle.
Guest:Yeah, it's a little different.
Marc:Yeah, it's called 45 Jokes.
Marc:45 Jokes about my dead dad.
Marc:About your dead dad.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:45 Jokes about my dead dad.
Marc:I didn't know what that was going to be, but it's really that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would do, my dad died a couple years ago.
Guest:In fact, when I did my long form WTFQ, the day it dropped is the day he went into hospice.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So all that was going on?
Guest:Yeah, that was right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:See, not only did I not pick that up when you were here, but I missed the entire Twitter event of his passing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I follow you.
Marc:That's how self-involved I am.
Marc:I guess I must have registered at some point.
Marc:I hope Lori's okay.
Marc:But I didn't see the phenomenon happen.
Guest:I was like, I should be retweeting my WTF more, but I'm really busy helping my dad die.
Marc:That was it?
Guest:Probably, yeah.
Guest:Sorry, I didn't promote it as much as I should have.
Marc:Oh, no, it was fine.
Marc:You had bigger things.
Marc:Apparently, you were writing a show.
Guest:Yeah.
Wow.
Guest:I was doing some creative work.
Marc:But the weird thing was is that I didn't realize that the inception of it was because you were, it almost seems compulsively tweeting about the process of your father's dying.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there were some things you said in the doc that I thought were in the special that I thought were really interesting just in terms of comedy that when you started to go through it and then I started to realize how frequent it was and that you were almost obsessively into it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:To insulate yourself from falling into a complete darkness.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That that it was serving you and that there were some moral and ethical questions you had to ask yourself either during it or at least in retrospect.
Marc:But it really seemed that at the time and people began to follow you because you were tweeting doing these jokes about him dying of cancer that at the time you didn't seem to have a choice.
Guest:No.
Guest:And I was trapped in a house in in my house, my parents house with my sister, my mom and my dad.
Guest:It was just us.
Guest:And he had a few visitors and stuff.
Guest:But that's just enough to make you crazy, even if everyone's healthy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But when someone's dying, then you just you're about to go off the deep end.
Marc:Right, and he had had lung cancer.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And you knew that.
Marc:So this was all the arc of it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:By the time he got to hospice care at his house, you knew you had moved through this process.
Guest:Yeah, but you still don't think your dad's... You still think your dad's going to be that one guy that went into hospice and then beat it and then lived to be 100.
Guest:You still cannot fathom that that person's going to be gone.
Marc:And this is the first person that you've lost...
Guest:You know, luckily, first big loss is pretty late in life.
Guest:And how old is he?
Guest:He was 83.
Marc:That's like, you know, that's old.
Guest:That's a good, that's a good life.
Guest:Good run.
Guest:You can't complain.
Guest:You can't.
Marc:So, but the, so you, you thought that you knew he had cancer and I imagine you weren't, you were up there infrequently.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:During it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Checking in.
Guest:At least probably like every other weekend I'd fly up and then, yeah.
Guest:And then on the phone constantly recording all of our phone calls.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You were recording the phone calls?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:From the beginning.
Guest:As soon as he got sick, I started recording everything.
Marc:Why?
Guest:Well, first of all, sometimes he would start talking about his life and his past, and I wanted that.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:I just thought I would want to hear it one day.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:Because when you're engaged in it, you don't always hear it.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And you can't necessarily remember everything.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And there does come a time where I think you don't really know your parents.
Marc:Right.
Guest:no until this happens or until they get too old to realize that they're telling you shit they're not supposed to yeah and you also don't know like you can prepare like my mom is still alive and I should be preparing myself and I should be ready for her to go but I know I'm still as annoyed with her as I always am even though I know she's 79 and it's a rough 79 and I still can't
Guest:Even though I know the steps, I should be getting all this information and just hugging her and holding her and stuff.
Guest:I still can't stop myself from snapping when she invades any sort of or crosses an emotional boundary or something.
Marc:Well, you know, it is their fault.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It really is.
Guest:I tell her that every day.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Well, that's kind of like I love you.
Guest:In our family, definitely.
Marc:Well, it seems like there was an understanding of the tone throughout the family.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you said something in the doc part where you said that the jokes, I don't know if you knew it in the time you were tweeting it, because you did, like it became sort of a phenomenon, you tweeting about your father's illness and
Marc:And I think it became a phenomenon because everybody deals with that to some degree unless people die suddenly.
Marc:Everyone's going to deal with it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like Conan said in the documentary part of it, that...
Marc:Death and dying is something we've moved out of the house that people, the fragility that happens to people, we don't really connect with it anymore.
Marc:And he brought up that amazing point that it used to be people, when I was a little kid, you'd go to someone's house and there was a hospital bed in the fucking living room.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Because, you know, someone's grandparent was dying.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Somebody, every family had a dying member.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like in that room.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And it just is.
Marc:It's not part of our culture anymore.
Marc:And I don't think I don't think that people detach from the feelings that are connected with that, but they actually detach from the event of it.
Marc:So it seems that a lot of people are like, I went through this or this is amazing because, you know, we're all going to have to deal with this.
Marc:And then the support came.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But the thing you said was you were control.
Marc:It was a means of control.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was like you're having something thrown at you really hard and fast.
Guest:And all right, this is how I catch it.
Guest:And I'm going to push that ball away.
Guest:Give me the next one.
Guest:You're just constantly maybe it's like having a tennis ball machine just coming at you and you're just writing them away as quickly as possible.
Marc:And that's what we do anyways.
Marc:Probably before we were comics as funny people or as people that have whatever it is, the sickness that enables them to do comedy.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:That's how we managed emotions or deflected emotions or dealt with anger or dealt with sadness.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Was to get a laugh or at least frame it somehow that we could be comforted.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's also more fun to do if a dating situation goes awry.
Guest:Right.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Can you crack your knuckles?
Guest:Let me have at it.
Guest:Five new minutes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Um, and so when you had a couple of those, when it's something that isn't as fun to go through, it is, you know, it's, it's interesting to at least tackle it the same way as you tackle all the other crap that happens in your life.
Marc:And when you were in it and when you were dealing with it, when he did come to the house for those nine or 10 days, um, because I can't imagine it.
Marc:And, you know, I, I think about my own death more than anything else.
Marc:I'm very selfish that way.
Marc:I know my parents are much older and they're theoretically going to get it first, but I'm still a little preoccupied with my own health and concerns.
Marc:It's natural.
Marc:I guess.
Marc:But I mean, was there any, as hard as it was, did it become something that you could understand just as existentially as a person?
Marc:Did it become easier as he was really dying there in the house?
Guest:Yeah, because I could talk to somebody about it that wasn't my sister or my mom, who was also, we were all just freaked out.
Guest:So it was a way to call a friend.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I'm a comic.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I don't have friends.
Guest:No.
Guest:I just have other comics I know, you know?
Marc:Here's how we go out with our friends.
Marc:Oh, fuck.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It's a party.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:If you're a real friend, you won't contact me.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:They want to have dinner.
Marc:I don't know what that means.
Guest:What do you talk about?
Marc:It's so fucking sad.
Guest:It is sad.
Marc:We're just going to sit there and I don't know.
Marc:I don't know the guy she's with.
Guest:I know.
Marc:The couple thing.
Marc:Anyway.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But but outside of all this support you're getting from strangers.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Which must have been comforting.
Guest:Very comforting.
Marc:And people were coming by and stuff.
Guest:Yeah, my dad had a few friends.
Guest:He had like dog park friends.
Guest:So they came by and some family members came by.
Marc:And he was conscious the whole time for the most part.
Guest:He was until the last day he was.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So he- A little high?
Guest:Very high.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was like a Korean war vet and never complained.
Guest:And we were supposed to give him morphine.
Guest:He held out until his pain was at a 10.
Guest:And then he started taking morphine all the time.
Guest:So quite high at the end.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah, you talk about the morphine in the bits.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then but, you know, the interesting thing about the special is that, you know, you were I guess you learned from doing the jokes, you know, outside of the Twitter stuff that there had to be some balance to where you didn't seem insensitive.
Marc:Like you had to address the fact that you were grieving and that this wasn't just these weird callous jokes.
Guest:Yeah, it's weird.
Guest:I mean, I sometimes I get angry when the audience doesn't go immediately down a callous path.
Marc:You know, what's wrong with you people?
Marc:You have normal feelings.
Guest:You want me to know I love my parents first before I tell you I want them to die or.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What's wrong with you guys?
Marc:Yeah, don't assume that.
Guest:Yeah, you do have to.
Guest:You have to hold their hand a little bit.
Marc:Well, there was some footage in there from when you were running the jokes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that moment... So awkward.
Marc:I mean, well, yeah, because... Well, what is it exactly?
Marc:Explain it.
Guest:This happened twice, and one time I had it on video, where I was in the middle of a regular nightclub set at a regular comedy club, and I have this little chunk on my dad I'm working on.
Guest:He's already dead, and it's about him.
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:And it's hard to go into...
Guest:There's no regular material that sets you up for it really well.
Guest:I have a kid.
Guest:I talk about that.
Guest:Dating.
Guest:And my dad's dead.
Guest:It's Saturday night.
Guest:What?
Marc:We're here for dick jokes, lady.
Marc:What are you doing?
Guest:And plus, he was newly dead, so I wasn't good at talking about it.
Marc:Well, that's the interesting thing about us, since we don't have the friends, is that you're going to process this shit in front of a room full of strangers without having a handle on it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So so just even practicing saying my dad died, like, I guess I'm OK at saying it now because it's been two and a half years.
Guest:But, you know, two months after I was like, you know, it was hard to get out.
Marc:You were in it.
Guest:So I think if you're not completely comfortable with the topic, the audience picks up on it.
Guest:So I do think it's partially my fault for for talking about that stuff.
Guest:in front of, you know, where I had, the other material had been just very polished and then also not only is it new material, but it's a really tough topic for me to, you know, be casual about.
Marc:And honestly, I mean, theoretically, if, you know, anything about death is true, that, you know, you hadn't really processed the feelings.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And this was like, whether you want to admit it or not, this was how you were processing.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you dragged people through.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Paying customers.
Guest:Some of them paid.
Guest:A lot of them had Groupons and free tickets, but some of them paid.
Marc:But no, I know that experience only from talking about not anything is bad, but when I was going through that divorce, that was where I was doing it.
Marc:And people were horrified.
Marc:I have no handle on the emotions, the anger and the pain.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, yeah, if you, you know, you give them, you know, 15 solid minutes and then you take five for yourself and then you give them the rest of the time.
Guest:It should, I think it's a good, it's still a good deal.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:But like, you know, and also with you is that, you know, you write jokes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, you sit, you know, you have that control.
Marc:Like with me, I'm just like, just spewing.
Guest:You're just spurting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm just like, maybe we'll land somewhere.
Yeah.
Marc:So so going into it, you're like, well, this this is this is structurally sound.
Marc:It's a joke.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's not.
Marc:I'm not going to cry at the end of this.
Marc:That's not part of the plan.
Marc:So what did happen, though?
Marc:What were those two incidences?
Marc:I saw it was hard to hear what she said.
Guest:But she she she said, my mom just went into hospice and I don't think this is funny.
Guest:And so I just sort of talked to her a little bit and then I ended up buying her a beer and climbing off stage and giving her a hug.
Guest:And that turned out to be enough.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:This is Arizona.
Guest:If you give someone a hug and buy them a beer, you're...
Marc:But ultimately, it's somebody who's not at the stage you're at, who's dealing with it.
Marc:And I don't think they were being critical of you.
Marc:There was just no way for them to see it as funny.
Guest:It's a media emotional reaction.
Marc:Right.
Guest:It was worse.
Guest:When I was in Seattle, I did a guest set, like a 10-minute guest set on a Saturday show, somebody else's show.
Guest:I was just up there trying to work this stuff out.
Guest:And so it's a great crowd.
Guest:And I was like, I'm doing this material no matter what.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:I got to work on it.
Guest:I got to work on it.
Guest:And it's kind of working.
Guest:And then, you know, there was one joke.
Guest:I ended up dropping it, but it was like some kind of cremation joke.
Guest:And it went nowhere.
Guest:And then that silence gave somebody the space to go...
Guest:this is awful or whatever.
Guest:And, and say, my dad died.
Guest:And her dad had just died too.
Guest:Like probably the same time my dad died.
Guest:And then she just, she stomped out of the room in very high heels.
Guest:It was at the underground.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Marc:In that place, the new one with the floor?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The clomp, clomp, clomp, clomp out.
Guest:And it's a Saturday, you know, every comedic instinct, it's a great Saturday crowd.
Guest:Like, man,
Guest:you know let me just mop this up with five killer minutes did you do it no i just kept going it hurt it hurt my body to keep bombing um and it was so uncomfortable and and then she was clomping up the stairs like it took her a minute to clomp out of the room yeah and the audience they could hear and her son came up afterwards and apologized and and said you know we had i made up with him i guess but she was gone
Marc:Well, I mean, theoretically, you know, that's, you know, the appropriate thing to do would have been to clomp without talking.
Guest:You know, like, you know, take your shoes off and walk out silently.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, that's what we want.
Marc:It's sort of like, you know, instead of ruining the show, just leave.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And come back when the other guy's on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes, yeah.
Marc:I mean, that's etiquette, but it is emotional shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, and you just did it.
Marc:You just kept pounding away?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did it help?
Guest:It must have helped.
Guest:It always helps.
Guest:You always get information from the audience on whether a joke works or not.
Guest:And why it doesn't work, you know, that's also, like, I think that chunk that I was working on that she walked out on, I just dropped because it wasn't strong enough.
Guest:Couldn't get it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, I mean, it helped me.
Marc:yeah right it helps you process your feelings yes it will help me realize this this this path I'm trying with these jokes isn't going to work so let me just pull up and work on the other stuff that is working you know well it's interesting because like you know watching the set and watching the stuff with your sister and Conan's there and yeah I'm always happy to see Kindler and Patton who is post his horrible tragedy yes and who else popped up your family yeah my friend Cheryl yeah your friend Cheryl
Marc:is that, you know, once you're on stage, you know, you can tell that, you know, you set it up like this is exactly what it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're okay with it.
Marc:Like you've processed your grief at that point.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:For the most part.
Guest:For the most part.
Guest:It's seven months after.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's still.
Guest:It's still fresh.
Guest:And I look at it now and I think, but I think, oh, that joke I tell better now or I could tell better.
Guest:Sure, of course.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:But you go out of your way to, like, I think the jokes about you crying,
Marc:are really important yeah you you know or else like you you'd be like you know this she is sociopathic and she's not she's we're just watching her avoid uh processing this stuff yeah yeah yeah well it's uh it's definitely a sort of groundbreaking special and it's funny and it was moving and uh wait now where did you where can is it out thank you it is out it's on CISO
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You're one of the crew that's doing the specials on CISO.
Guest:I'm part of the CISO crew, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Stan Hope, Jenna Friedman, Garofalo, a lot of good comics.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And if I, yeah, it's CISO.com.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And it's called 45 Jokes About My Dead Dad.
Guest:Correct.
Marc:Well, thanks for talking about it.
Guest:Thanks for having me, Mark.
Marc:Appreciate it.
Okay.
Marc:Okay, that was, I love her.
Marc:And you can, as she said, you can get that special 49 jokes about my dead dad at CISO.
Marc:Now what?
Marc:We got Martha Plimpton coming up.
Marc:Martha Plimpton, who I did not know, I'd never met, but I was excited to meet her.
Marc:Martha Plimpton is on the new ABC comedy, The Real O'Neills, which airs Tuesday nights at 9.30, 8.30 Central.
Marc:But she's also been around a long time, like my girlfriend, Sarah Kane.
Marc:When I told her who she was and then I pointed out who she was, a lot of times Sarah doesn't necessarily remember the name.
Marc:But if I guide her to an image or maybe hit a trigger with a title like Goonies, the whole world opens up to her.
Marc:She loves Martha Plimpton.
Marc:Martha Plimpton was her ideal female archetype when she was younger, when you watched Goonies.
Marc:And now Martha Plimpton is a seasoned actress.
Marc:And I have to say quite a New York character.
Marc:It's always nice to to talk to somebody who is on this knees.
Marc:Oh, it's not happening.
Marc:It's such a tease, man.
Marc:Just give me the sneeze.
Marc:Give me the fucking payoff.
Marc:Damn it.
Marc:Not happening.
Marc:So I'm always excited to talk to real New Yorkers.
Marc:And Martha is definitely a real New Yorker.
Marc:And we get into it.
Marc:So this is me and Martha Plimpton.
Thank you.
Marc:Annette Bening was in here.
Marc:You're kidding.
Marc:Yeah, she came over.
Marc:It's always odd to me, you know, people just drive up.
Guest:You're getting all the big shots and then today me.
Guest:You're a big shot.
Guest:Not really.
Marc:Oh, but you're yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:People know who you are.
Marc:It's so weird because I had this weird memory of you and I don't even know if it's real anymore or what was going on in your life or what.
Marc:But I was a doorman
Marc:At the comedy store.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I was a doorman and I was like, you know, all jacked up on blow in Hollywood and like watching.
Marc:And it was with that guy, Josh Miller, right?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I remember him.
Marc:He walked around with a cane.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:He's a character.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Pauly Shore was there.
Marc:Pauly Shore and Donovan's kid.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:Donovan's Ione.
Marc:Yeah, is that his name?
Guest:Yeah, her name.
Guest:Ione Skye was Donovan's kid, but then he had a son too.
Marc:Right, named Donovan.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I don't remember Ione being there.
Marc:That's Donovan's kid too?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I didn't know that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I see her around.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, she's a mom now.
Marc:I used to.
Marc:People just, they become moms.
Guest:I know, it's crazy.
Marc:Yeah, men and women, they marry.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Or not, or they don't.
Marc:Or they just become moms.
Guest:Or they just become moms or dads.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, I guess there's a lot of ways to do it.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Marc:But I just, you know, I don't know.
Marc:I've been married twice and it's, you know, no kids.
Marc:Didn't work out.
Guest:Yeah, well.
Marc:It's all right.
Guest:That's all right.
Marc:How about you?
Guest:Never married.
Marc:Anything?
Marc:No kids.
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:Nothing.
Marc:Free.
Guest:Free and easy.
Marc:That's what you call that.
Marc:Freedom.
Guest:Free and easy.
Marc:Freedom just to be alone with your thoughts.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:Well, I got a fella.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Which is good, but, you know.
Guest:But also, he lives over on the other side of the world, so.
Marc:Like literally or?
Guest:Yeah, he lives in London.
Marc:Oh, I thought you were going to say Santa Monica.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:London.
Marc:I have no sense of that city, but it's like it always amazes me there.
Marc:And it's like, there's a lot of history here.
Marc:Like in the States.
Marc:Yeah, it's an old one.
Marc:Yeah, it only goes back a couple hundred years.
Marc:Like the oldest thing, you're like, oh my God, this house is a historical monument.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So, all right, let's go through the whole thing.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Do you want to?
Marc:Yeah, let's go.
Marc:Let's go.
Marc:When you were you grew up in New York, do you still live there?
Guest:I still live there.
Marc:And you drove that car out here?
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:I shipped it out.
Marc:Oh, what does that mean?
Marc:Someone else drove it?
Guest:Yeah, put it on a truck.
Marc:Oh, you didn't want to do the glorious drive across the street?
Guest:I've done that.
Guest:I've done that 13 times.
Guest:I've done it enough.
Guest:I'm exhausted.
Marc:But you usually live in the city.
Marc:I do.
Marc:Brooklyn.
Guest:Now Brooklyn.
Guest:I grew up in Manhattan.
Marc:You did?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:With actor parents?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, my mom was an actress until I was like eight.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, so then she got out of the game?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Smartly?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But your dad's security.
Marc:She couldn't hack it.
Marc:Nah, yeah, couldn't take it.
Guest:Well, then I started acting.
Guest:You really can't have just a mom and a daughter both acting.
Marc:But your dad wasn't there?
Marc:Nobody's going to make a living.
Guest:No, dad was out here.
Marc:Oh, he was?
Marc:So that was already done?
Guest:Yeah, that was done before I even came out.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Do you have a relationship with that guy?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Oh, you guys are all right?
Guest:Oh, yeah, we're all right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's the Carradine family.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:And I have a half-brother and sister that my dad went and had.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're friends with them?
Guest:And they're out here very much so.
Guest:Love them.
Marc:Love them dearly.
Guest:Well, that's nice.
Guest:Yeah, it's great.
Marc:Was that always easy?
Guest:No, it was definitely not always easy.
Guest:Horrible.
Guest:Well, I didn't...
Guest:Is that what you're saying?
Guest:So traumatic.
Guest:Yeah, it was, right?
Guest:Well, sure.
Guest:Look, all childhoods are traumatic and horrible.
Guest:And mine was that other version of it.
Marc:But you had your mom.
Marc:I had my mom.
Marc:Who was an actress and quit.
Guest:Who was an actress and quit it.
Marc:Did she have bad things to say about it?
Guest:No, she just couldn't make a living.
Guest:She needed to support us.
Marc:I think she did some weird shit in the 60s, right?
Guest:Yeah, well, she did hair.
Guest:That's where my parents met.
Marc:Out in the show, the Broadway show.
Marc:In the Broadway show of hair.
Marc:Have you ever done hair?
Guest:I sang in a concert version at the UN on like the 25th or 30th anniversary or something.
Marc:Of the hair?
Guest:Of the show, yeah.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:At the UN?
Guest:Yeah, with Donna Summer.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In the big room?
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:We were in- Not in the room where they're all sitting with headsets.
Marc:We were in a big room.
Guest:Right, but not that one.
Guest:No, not the headset.
Guest:You weren't at a podium?
Guest:No, not the headset.
Marc:Being translated?
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Guest:But they broke up before I was born.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then my dad wasn't really around.
Guest:Then I met him when I was like five.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe six.
Marc:He just came around?
Guest:Well, I think somebody called him and was like, you know what?
Guest:You got to get on this.
Marc:Check in with the kid you had.
Guest:Your kid's like almost an adult.
Guest:You got to call him.
Guest:She's five.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:She's almost an adult.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's cooking meals for herself.
Guest:You have to know.
Guest:Someone's got to take care of her.
Guest:Get in touch.
Guest:And he did.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then I'd see him maybe once a year for like a week or two.
Marc:But for the most part, it was just you and your mom.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And so she was an actress.
Marc:Wasn't she in Putney Swope?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:She's the face-off girl.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You gave me a dry hump.
Guest:That one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's my mom.
Marc:That's a pretty important movie.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's a hugely important movie.
Marc:yeah it's a life changer i know majorly that not a lot of people know about i know well they should yeah did you um all right so what does she tell you what does she say about acting to you what does she nothing really well she said she said something i mean you know the standard stuff like it's not easy taste yeah have integrity but not the uh like it's crazy you know don't throw your life away around it everybody and i you know it was a foregone conclusion i was gonna end up doing it
Marc:So your mom hung out with the crew, with the acting crew?
Guest:Well, all of our friends were actors.
Guest:All of our friends were in the theater.
Guest:All of them were in some way avant-garde.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:My mom used to do shows at like Top of the Gate.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Remember like the Village Gate?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:No longer there.
Marc:Yeah, I used to do shows there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They had the room upstairs and the little lounge room and then the basement with the big room.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:The big concert room.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:The Lugovs.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And she used to do like these sort of avant-garde concerts with Liz Suedos and these sort of crazy sort of shows.
Marc:So what was this like?
Marc:The 70s?
Marc:70s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm born in 1970.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you're in the mid 70s.
Marc:You're being taken out.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And seeing weird shit.
Guest:Weird shit.
Guest:And yeah.
Guest:And hanging out with Liz Suedos and all kinds of people singing songs with made up words.
Yeah.
Marc:exactly a lot of like weird uh movement things right yeah like the woman who wrote liz suedo's who wrote runaways the musical runaways right so she like do you and you remember it sure yeah oh yeah and now i well i imagine if you're seeing that kind of theater why wouldn't you want to do it well yeah it's just what everybody's doing yeah yeah yeah and it does you know it does yeah you can do anything yeah yeah you can act like an idiot does that exist anymore
Guest:Maybe to a certain degree.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I mean, there's still a mama still there.
Marc:But like, I wonder if that whole that that arena of like just doing like crazy raw shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Performance art doesn't really it's not as much around anymore.
Guest:I guess not.
Guest:I guess it isn't.
Guest:Or if it is, I don't go see much of it.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:Take the time.
Guest:No, I don't really take the time out.
Marc:So when did you start working on being an actress?
Marc:Like, what was that?
Guest:Well, I didn't start working on it until later, but the first thing I did, I was eight.
Guest:I did Liz again.
Guest:She wanted to make a movie out of Runaways, out of her musical.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And because I was always around when my mom was working, she knew I liked to sing and dance and be a pain in the ass, and so she put me in that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then the following year when I was nine, she put me in her show The Haggadah.
Marc:Jewish show.
Guest:Jewish show.
Guest:I had to figure that out.
Guest:I'm like so quick.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:She wrote a musical about the Jews fleeing Egypt and obviously the story of Passover.
Guest:And Julie Taymor did all these puppets.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And there were these big giant masks people wore.
Guest:I remember the guy playing Moses had a big giant Moses head.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Moses head yeah that's that makes an impact when you young yeah Moses yeah so I did and that was at the public theater and that was my first real show and was it a well-received show it was it was very well-received it was it was I and if there was puppets and human puppets and humans and big hanging and big giant paper mache heads that Julie Taymore made yeah this was 79
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:And you remember Zvi Schooler?
Marc:Uh-uh.
Guest:Do you remember him?
Marc:Uh-uh.
Guest:He played the rabbi in one of the Woody Allen movies.
Guest:I'm trying to remember.
Guest:Probably Annie Hall.
Guest:Yes, he's in Annie Hall.
Guest:He plays the rabbi in that.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:For like a second.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:When we did that, he was about 125 when we did that.
Marc:Perfect age.
Marc:Perfect age.
Marc:Biblical.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I did that.
Guest:And then I just kept doing plays and stuff for a while.
Guest:And then when I was 11 was the first time I did like, I started like auditioning for things.
Marc:Did you, did you train?
Marc:Nah.
Marc:Nah.
Marc:Nah.
Marc:Not at all.
Guest:Nah.
Marc:Nah, why?
Marc:You just had it in you.
Guest:I just learned on the job.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think that's what most people do.
Guest:You know, like back in the time of Dickens.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:When children would go to work at six or seven to become apprentices.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they learn on the job.
Guest:That's like me.
Guest:I'm like a grimy Dickens child actor.
Yeah.
Marc:Too glad you never did Oliver.
Marc:It would have been perfectly.
Marc:So you started mostly doing theater.
Marc:And were you like this kid that all these theater people knew?
Marc:Like that's Clinton's kid?
Guest:Among a certain crowd, yes, maybe.
Guest:Maybe a little, yeah.
Marc:And when did you start getting successful?
Guest:Well, you know, that's a relative term.
Marc:I understand.
Marc:Well, let's talk about it.
Guest:I would say I started making a living at it when I was a teenager.
Marc:After the movies?
Guest:Yeah, when the movies started.
Marc:Yeah, and what was the first big movie?
Guest:First big movie I did was The River Rat.
Guest:I mean, it didn't end up being a huge hit, but it was like the first feature I ever did.
Marc:Who was in that?
Guest:Tommy Lee Jones and Brian Dennehy and me.
Marc:That was it.
Guest:I got a big lead part and I was 12.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I had to learn how to ride a bicycle.
Guest:I never learned how to ride a bicycle.
Guest:Living in Manhattan.
Marc:Living in Manhattan and dad's out here.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:My mother did not want me to learn how to ride a bike.
Marc:She didn't want you to?
Marc:Too dangerous?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Didn't want to worry about it?
Guest:She didn't want to deal with it.
Guest:It was too stressful.
Guest:She wasn't really a big bike rider anyway.
Guest:It just wasn't a priority.
Marc:Is she still around?
Guest:My mother?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Very much so.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I wasn't attacking you.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So now you're like 12.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you're with two like monster actors.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Brian Dennehy.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And Tommy Lee Jones.
Marc:I know.
Yeah.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Were they nice?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, Brian Denny was very nice.
Guest:He was like a big papa bear kind of guy.
Guest:Very sweet.
Guest:Very affectionate.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Big, big hands.
Guest:Big, big guy.
Marc:And what was the relationship?
Marc:What was the movie about?
Guest:It was about I played a kid who was growing up in the bayou.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Or no, not the bio, but like on the river.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And my father gets out of jail.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And meets me for the first time.
Marc:And that's Tommy Lee Jones?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And Brian Denny plays his evil parole officer.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:Who's trying to get him put back in jail.
Marc:Oh, because he thinks he's no good.
Guest:Because he knows about a big treasure hole, like a big bunch of money hiding somewhere.
Marc:Oh, so he's the bad guy.
Guest:Yeah, he's a bad guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And now like, okay, so learning on the job, you know, you're working with these guys.
Marc:It's the first movie set.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What were your first impressions?
Marc:Like, oh my God, this is tedious.
Guest:I had a blast.
Guest:I loved it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh my gosh.
Guest:I had so much fun.
Guest:I had so much fun.
Marc:And then your mom had to go with you?
Guest:Yeah, my mother was down there with me.
Marc:Just hanging around?
Marc:Did you have to go to school on the set?
Guest:I had to go to school on the set and the whole deal, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and that movie was well enough received that you got more work.
Guest:Well, it wasn't really, I mean, it was well received enough, but it was not hit by any stretch of the imagination.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Is it a cult favorite?
No.
Guest:I wouldn't even say that.
Guest:No.
Marc:When was the last time you took a look at that work?
Guest:I haven't seen it in a long time.
Guest:Do you ever look at the work you do?
Guest:I don't like to, no.
Guest:I think I'm not probably very good in that, although I was 12, so I got to give myself a break.
Marc:Yeah, but you also probably had that spunky kid charm.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:That was a tomboy thing.
Marc:Yeah, that was sort of like your hook for a while.
Guest:Yeah, not too self-conscious yet.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That was the thing.
Guest:Well, that was back when we had tomboys in movies.
Guest:You don't have that anymore.
Marc:They're not?
Guest:No, we don't do tomboys anymore, haven't you noticed?
Marc:I don't know if I was really paying attention in that way.
Guest:No, in the 80s, remember, androgyny was kind of like a normal, fun thing.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:There were a lot of, you know, like Mary Stewart Masterson.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right?
Guest:You know, like the short-haired, smart, kind of street-smart girl.
Guest:You don't have those characters anymore.
Marc:No?
Guest:No.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Why?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Something happened.
Marc:I wonder, you think it was a conscious, there was a memo put out?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Enough with the tomboys.
Guest:Something happened with the, I don't know, with ideas about women and sex and sexuality and pop culture.
Guest:I don't know what happened.
Marc:Is it a positive or a negative that we're talking about?
Guest:I think it's probably a negative.
Guest:I miss reading and seeing stories about tomboys.
Guest:Well, now you have... Teen girls who aren't necessarily always focused on boys and clothes and stuff.
Guest:We don't see as much of that anymore.
Marc:Oh, I don't know that I registered that.
Guest:No, there you go.
Marc:Well, I learned something today.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I just like I don't know.
Marc:I guess I haven't seen a kid movie in a while or a movie with kids.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, I mean, they're not.
Guest:Yes, I don't see that many either.
Marc:But you were like, you were around that.
Marc:You were kind of one of them for a while.
Guest:Yeah, that's, yeah, exactly.
Guest:I think that was my niche.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then Goonies was the big one, right?
Guest:Right, yes.
Guest:Another tomboy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Short-haired girls.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Short-haired girls and, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that was like a huge movie, right?
Marc:Massive.
Guest:Well, it's funny.
Guest:At the time, it was not that huge.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what happened?
Guest:It just somehow became this classic.
Marc:Classic nerdy kid movie?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And who directed that?
Marc:Richard Donner.
Marc:When you work with directors, do you register?
Marc:Do you learn things from them?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Sometimes, unless they're terrible at it.
Guest:But then you learn another kind of thing from them.
Marc:Like what not to do, how not to talk.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was he like?
Guest:Dick Donner was great.
Guest:He was a lot of fun.
Guest:I mean, it was a torturous experience for him because he was dealing with eight teenage children, most of whom were boys and horribly loud and noisy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Josh Brolin.
Guest:Josh Brolin.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was doing it that long.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And now he's like a big, massive, huge, important A-list movie star.
Yeah.
Marc:He's a pretty good movie star.
Marc:He's very good.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You watch him and you're like, oh my God.
Guest:I know, he's really good.
Marc:Supposed to be up there.
Guest:That No Country for Old Men, he was really good in that.
Marc:And the other one, Milk?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:That's crazy.
Guest:Yeah, no, he's a really good one.
Marc:Do you still know these people?
Guest:Not really.
Marc:It's weird, right?
Guest:I mean, I consider, I mean, yes, I know them, but we're not in touch.
Marc:I know, I always, that's the one thing I've learned from doing this show over the years, that none of you people.
Guest:We don't really, none of us people really keep in touch.
Marc:Like, we all see you, and you're like, oh, they're all hanging out.
Guest:Yeah, no, no.
Marc:You just go live your life.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:So for the most part, what did you hit like a place with this stuff?
Marc:Like the transition?
Marc:Because it seems like you work constantly or you know, pretty a lot.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You're like a working actress.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But when did the sort of like spunky tomboy thing?
Marc:When did you transition?
Guest:Late teens, early 20s.
Guest:I stopped getting work in movies.
Marc:Did you panic?
Guest:No.
Guest:I was annoyed.
Guest:I was pissed.
Guest:My ego was wounded.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I didn't panic, no.
Guest:I kept working.
Guest:I kept doing plays.
Guest:I'd do some indie movies here and there.
Guest:And then I started doing more television guest spots, really.
Guest:And then in my 30s, movies completely dried up.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Nothing.
Marc:Nothing.
Marc:Nothing.
Guest:I haven't made a movie.
Guest:I think I've done a couple of small parts in maybe a handful of movies in the last 15, 20 years.
Marc:But you did a lot of television.
Marc:Tons.
Marc:But let's talk about theater.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I like talking about theater.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:Because that's the real deal.
Guest:In a way.
Marc:Well, because I just got done shooting a show for three months, a TV show.
Marc:And the one thing I noticed, I'd never done it before.
Marc:I'd done my own show, but I'd not done a part before.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Is that the waiting to act.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's kind of daunting.
Marc:I mean, like, I never realized that part of the job was you might have to sit around for 10 hours and you have to.
Guest:Well, on a movie particularly.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You have to manage your frustration.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Your resentment.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Your energy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Your appetite.
Marc:That.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Fuck.
Guest:Because you could just graze and graze and graze.
Guest:It never stops.
Marc:You get this crafty pudge.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:Like you're just watching people on set.
Marc:I got to manage this.
Guest:It's like John Lithgow says, TV makes you fatter and theater makes you skinnier.
Marc:Because you're jacked all the time.
Marc:Because you're jacked all the time in the theater.
Marc:And there's not a table out there.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:You get what you get in your dressing room, whatever you ask for.
Guest:And if you're going to eat a big meal before the show, that's a bad idea.
Guest:So usually there's like, you're eating smaller meals.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:And then afterwards.
Guest:And then during the show, you just sweat it all out.
Marc:right yeah just have the melon slices that's right whatever's in the dressing room right whatever's in your rider right right the veggie plate yeah they don't provide that anymore no no you got to get your own food in the theater no maybe on the first day they give you bagels oh really yeah but after that it's up to you oh because you're there every fucking night yeah so when when did you start doing real theater
Guest:Well, that was the whole time.
Guest:I mean, really the whole time.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that was in New York?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you were really in- Or regionally.
Guest:I worked a lot in Seattle.
Guest:I worked at Seattle, rep a bunch.
Marc:Does that mean you just take residence there?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, at the time, my mother was living out there.
Guest:At the time, she was actually married to the guy who ran the theater there.
Marc:What age was you then?
Guest:I was in my late teens, early 20s.
Marc:So you're doing these movies, making a little bit of money, then doing theater.
Guest:And then that dries up, and I go to do the plays.
Marc:Now, what do you find?
Marc:It's interesting to me that you really had no theatrical training.
Marc:You just figured it out.
Guest:Yeah, I just grew up around it, like I said.
Marc:Yeah, but you must have some sort of natural propensity towards it.
Marc:What did you do up in Seattle?
Marc:Which shows?
Guest:I did a bunch of them.
Guest:I did a couple of world premieres of Wendy Wasserstein plays.
Guest:I did Heidi Chronicles and Sisters Rosenzweig up there when they premiered.
Marc:Did you work directly with Wendy when you were premiering these shows?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah, she was there.
Marc:Those are funny plays, right?
Guest:Yeah, they're very funny plays.
Guest:And she was a phenomenally funny, wonderful, warm, sort of jolly laughter.
Guest:You know, she had this really jolly laugh.
Marc:And this Jewish stuff.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Marc:Jewish stuff, yeah.
Marc:Well, you could do it.
Marc:I could hear it.
Guest:Well, I'm a little... I'm raised by Jews, so I'm a little bit like... Is your mom Jewish?
Guest:I'm like the Charzan of Jewishness.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:You're like... Right.
Marc:You were raised in the Jewish forest by...
Guest:jewish right that's right on the upper west side right well you can hear it like i didn't know you were so new yorky yeah like you can hear in your voice you got that yeah yeah that's me yeah is your mom jewish no oh they were just around my father's very excited that he recently learned we have some jewish ancestry oh really yeah dutch dutch jews yeah
Marc:Did you ever look at your, like, did you ever kind of, like, look at your, the sort of the legacy, the Carradine thing?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Like your grandfather?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You never met him, though, right?
Guest:Oh, yeah, I did.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:I met him a bunch of times.
Marc:The original Carradine?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He was like... Oh, gee.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He was in, like, what was he, what were the big movies?
Guest:He played... Grapes of Wrath.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But then he became, like, big in the B-movies, like, monster movies.
Guest:Like, he played Dracula a lot, Bluebeard.
Guest:He did a lot of movies with, like, Bela Lugosi.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And how old is he when you remember meeting him?
Guest:He was in his late 70s.
Marc:So he's conscious.
Marc:Mid to late 70s.
Guest:He was still conscious and spunky.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was always very sort of smart, sort of interesting, sort of dark, you know, dramatic figure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, he was a Shakespearean.
Guest:He was a part of a touring Shakespearean theater troupe for a long time.
Marc:Were you proud of that legacy?
Marc:Very.
Guest:Super proud of it.
Marc:Yeah, and your dad and his, oh, your Uncle David.
Marc:And then there's another one, right?
Marc:There's Robert.
Guest:Yeah, Robert, yeah.
Marc:He was in that Sam Fuller movie, the Big Red One.
Guest:That's right, Big Red One, yeah.
Guest:He's great in that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's a great movie.
Marc:It is a great movie.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And they did the Long Riders together.
Guest:The Long Riders.
Guest:All the Carradines.
Guest:All the three of them.
Guest:And then it was the Quaid brothers.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And then it was the... Come on.
Guest:Waiting for Guffman.
Guest:Help me.
Guest:A guest.
Marc:Christopher Guest.
Guest:Yeah, Christopher Guest.
Guest:The two brothers, they were in it.
Guest:I should watch that again.
Marc:I should too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, my dad's in some pretty great movies.
Marc:Oh, dude.
Marc:McCabe and Mrs. Miller is the best movie.
Guest:McCabe and Mrs. Miller, yeah.
Marc:All those Altman movies.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Nashville.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Altman loved him.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then he was in that Alan Rudolph movie.
Marc:Yeah, he did a lot of Alan Rudolph movies.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The Moderns.
Marc:The Moderns.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:My dad's in a lot of interesting, cool movies.
Marc:Did you ever go on set with those things?
Marc:No, never.
Marc:Because you weren't out here.
Guest:No.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'm glad you guys get along.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, we do.
Marc:All right, so let's talk about like this.
Marc:What were you doing in Chicago?
Guest:I went out there.
Guest:I auditioned for a play called The Libertine.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Which was a Stephen Jeffries play.
Guest:He's an Englishman.
Guest:And it was with John Malkovich.
Guest:How old were you then?
Guest:I was...
Guest:OK, it was 90.
Guest:I want to say it was 96 or I would have been 26, 27.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:96 or 97.
Guest:And yeah, so I auditioned for that and I got the job.
Guest:I was very, very, very excited because it was at Steppenwolf.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was a big part.
Marc:You'd grown to respect Steppenwolf.
Guest:Oh, very much so.
Guest:I mean, I remember when I was younger seeing that they had filmed True West.
Guest:Remember?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:With Sinise and Malkovich.
Marc:The original True West.
Marc:And Laurie Metcalf, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's interesting that they definitely define some sort of like very edgy, angry, engaged.
Guest:Very 70s, very, yeah.
Marc:Style into the 80s though, really, right?
Guest:Yeah, but it started in the 70s.
Guest:I want to say mid to late 70s.
Marc:And all those people came out of there.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Joan Allen, Roy Metcalf, Tracy Letts later.
Marc:That's right, Jeff Perry.
Marc:I saw Sinise's very child on Broadway.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That didn't last long, but it was a really good production.
Guest:It was great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:With Terry Kinney was in it.
Guest:Terry Kinney.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Underappreciated actor.
Guest:Very much so.
Guest:And doesn't particularly like acting anymore.
Guest:Well, he's a friend of mine, and he has said that he has reached a point, and this is something I completely get and understand, that the stage fright has won.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so now he directs.
Guest:He's got a show now at Lincoln Center that he's just directed.
Marc:A theatrical director.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Richard Greenberg play.
Marc:The stage fright got him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's what he says.
Guest:And Joan Allen, too, has talked about that, too.
Guest:She's got... I think it makes perfect sense to me.
Guest:I think the more you do it...
Guest:And the more people end up liking it, it starts to become more and more terrifying rather than less and less.
Guest:For some of us.
Guest:For some of us.
Guest:You know, it's like Stephen Fry.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know Stephen Fry.
Marc:I know of him, yeah.
Guest:He's written about at that moment when I can't remember what the show was that he was doing, but it was in London.
Guest:It was in the West End.
Guest:He was in costume and the stage fright got him and he literally left the theater, hailed a taxi and disappeared for like a year.
Guest:He went off to like an island.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No shit.
Guest:He was in his costume and he just like ran, took off and didn't go back to the theater.
Marc:He did his own interpretation of the show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's finally come back to the theater, but it took a long time.
Marc:And that's something you experienced?
Guest:I experienced stage fright in an intense way.
Guest:Yes, I totally relate to that.
Guest:I could see that happening.
Guest:I've had fantasies about running out of the theater and handling a cab for sure.
Marc:When you're in it, though, does it start a week before or just right then, that day?
Guest:After the first couple of previews, it comes on.
Marc:Because I'm on stage a lot as a stand-up, and somehow or another, that has gone away.
Guest:Well, that's very... It's a different thing.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's just me.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:It's just me.
Marc:After a certain point, I'm going to go out there and be myself.
Marc:And now a few people know who I am, so it's a little easier to be myself.
Marc:But what is the fear?
Guest:It's a good question.
Guest:It's a black...
Guest:Horror.
Guest:It's just a terror.
Guest:It's a breathless.
Marc:It's not even specific.
Guest:It's like it sucks the wind out of you.
Marc:And it's not like I'm not going to know my lines and they're not going to like me.
Guest:It's part that.
Guest:It's just an existential.
Guest:It's like your heart just is going to leap out of your chest.
Guest:You can't hear.
Guest:You can't think.
Guest:It's just like your head's on fire.
Marc:That sounds like a bonafide psychological syndrome.
Marc:It is, yes.
Marc:Not just sort of nerves.
Guest:It's been studied, yes.
Guest:It's a bonafide thing.
Marc:It's been studied, and what'd they say?
Guest:That it's a bonafide thing.
Guest:It's a real thing.
Marc:But you don't know where it comes from.
Guest:You don't know where... Well, it's obviously anxiety-related.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:Anxiety-related, and it's a form of panic attack.
Marc:Has it ever disabled you on stage?
No.
Guest:It has not yet Knockwood disabled me, but it's come close.
Marc:Where you're in it and you're out of it?
Guest:Where I'm in it and I'm out of it.
Guest:And just in a state of pure, just sheer terror.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember when I did a musical.
Guest:I did this musical, Pal Joey, a few years back.
Marc:It's Rogers and Hart, right?
Guest:Yeah, and I hadn't done one in a long... I hadn't done a musical since I was a child.
Guest:And I hadn't really sung publicly like that.
Guest:And, you know, once the orchestra starts playing, man, you know, the fucking train has left the station.
Guest:And if you're not on it, you're fucked.
Guest:There's no catching up.
Guest:right yeah yeah you can't go wait no you can't improvise and i had to do that was scary and the first number i did uh uh which was like my first like big solo number with all the dancers around and then the dancing is involved and the choreography is involved and the band is playing the orchestra's playing and
Guest:And the lights are on and the people are there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the terror, the terror of hitting the notes.
Guest:Am I going to hit the notes?
Guest:Can I kick that high enough?
Guest:And I came off the stage and I just fell to my knees and I was just hyperventilating in terror and they had to bring me paper bag.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you got through it.
Guest:I got through it.
Guest:I don't know how.
Guest:And then afterwards, John Guare came backstage and he said, you know, you don't look like you're enjoying yourself that much.
Guest:You might want to try and seem like you're having fun.
Marc:John Guare.
Marc:I met that guy.
Marc:What did he have to do with it?
Marc:He just came to see it.
Guest:He just came to see it as a colleague, friend, supporter.
Marc:Yeah, he's a smart guy.
Marc:Wonderful man.
Marc:Yeah, he's a nice guy.
Guest:Wonderful man, but I will never forget him coming to my dressing room and saying, yeah, you know, one thing I'd like to mention, you might want to try and seem like you actually like being there.
Marc:Like the exact worst thing to say at that moment.
Marc:But then you pulled it together and got through?
Guest:Somehow, yeah.
Guest:I got a Tony nomination, which was nice.
Guest:I don't know how the fuck that happened.
Guest:Somebody was having an off day.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Somebody got confused.
Guest:Maybe they were low on nominees that year.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:But what is it about musical?
Marc:I can't imagine being in one.
Marc:I would like to do it.
Marc:I think I have a... You have a good singing voice and everything?
Marc:I can do it.
Guest:Yeah, I don't doubt it.
Marc:I mean, it doesn't seem necessary that it's good as long as it's authentic.
Guest:Right.
Guest:As long as it's authentic and honest.
Marc:And in tune is good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But even I've seen some slightly out of tune musicals that are fine.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But to do a revival like that.
Marc:I mean, it's just like you're just entering the American songbook.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Daunting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Daunting.
Marc:But fun.
Guest:And then I had to, well, in that show, I had to do that song Zip.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Which is, which Elaine Stritch did originally.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:And it's one non sequitur after another.
Guest:And it's the most impossible song to learn.
Marc:It's fast?
Marc:I don't know the song.
Guest:It's not terribly fast, but it's just one sort of of that period, sort of contemporary reference of the time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it's like Bob Dylan's It's Alright Ma.
Guest:Yeah, and it goes on seemingly forever.
Guest:And it was the only number in the show that I did completely by myself.
Guest:And in front of a curtain, like three feet in front of the people.
Guest:And every night I got out there and exactly that would happen.
Guest:My head would go up in flames and it would just be, my head was just a ball of fire for the three minutes that it went on or four minutes that it went on.
Guest:And then I would come off stage and cry or swear or, you know, dry heave and move on.
Guest:So it'll be probably, it'll be a while before I do another musical.
Guest:Another musical?
Marc:well and that's at that level too i mean broadway like the weight of it yeah i know it's scary because i think and i've said this before on here that the reason i immediately react to musicals it's not it's not so much the song or anything else that there's a vulnerability yes in singing and in theater in general but for some reason when i see someone singing in public with other people i'm like oh my god like because i yeah
Marc:That's terrifying to me, singing in public.
Guest:Yes, singing in public is terrifying.
Guest:Yes, it is.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I don't like to do it, but I've done it.
Marc:Right, but you can do it.
Guest:And I've done concerts.
Guest:I had a concert at Lincoln Center, jazz at Lincoln Center, that was just my show with my band.
Marc:You have a band?
Guest:I have musicians that I work with, and I have a musical director I work with.
Marc:You do a cabaret thing?
Guest:It's kind of a cabaret thing, yeah.
Guest:It's like a one-woman concert with stories.
Guest:So, sure, yeah, cabaret thing, I guess.
Marc:That happens to, like, a lot of people in theater do that.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:It's a nice thing.
Guest:It is a nice thing.
Marc:Do you do standards, or what do you do?
Guest:I've done some standards.
Guest:I've done some pop songs.
Guest:The one I did at Jazz at Lincoln Center was, like, part of the American Songbook series.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I did songs.
Guest:The theme of the night was about growing up in New York in the 70s and 80s.
Guest:So I chose a lot of songs that were sort of reminiscent of that period.
Guest:That you took?
Guest:Tom Waits, some Randy Newman.
Marc:What Randy Newman?
Guest:I did It's Money That I Love and Jolly Copper's On Parade.
Marc:But New York in the 70s, I didn't even really think about that.
Marc:Like that, that was the heyday.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that was when.
Guest:In some ways, yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, it was.
Marc:When it was cool and scary and dangerous and broke.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But also there was that, the whole tone of culture at some point in the late 60s and the 70s was really New York centric.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Because you could afford to live there.
Guest:Artists could find places to live.
Guest:They could find empty lofts and they could, you know, Lower East Side and they could squat and they could find a place to live now.
Guest:That's done because artists can't afford to live there.
Marc:I don't know who's living there.
Marc:I go there now because I lived on 2nd between A and B for a couple of years and then I lived on 3rd and 16th for a few years and then I moved to Queens.
Marc:But...
Marc:But I go there now, I'm like, is this a vacation island?
Guest:Yes, it's a shopping destination.
Marc:But it's very weird because who's in all the apartments?
Marc:Are they just empty that rich people own them for the week?
Guest:Many of them are, yeah.
Guest:Those new ones, most of them are empty.
Guest:They're like tax shelters.
Guest:Does it anger you?
Guest:Yes, very much so.
Guest:And it's part of why I moved to Brooklyn now.
Guest:I live in Brooklyn.
Marc:And how's that?
Marc:I love it.
Guest:yeah yeah I love it now when you were growing up did you go like you know how old you born in 70s in 1970 young to like you do the whole kind of punk rock thing no no I did my girl my best friend Heidi lived down in the village and she did a lot of that in the 80s yeah she was a very precocious young teenager so she you know when she was 14 15 16 she was hanging out with that crowd but that was sort of the tail end of the of the punk so what did you grow up with like what studio 54
Guest:No, I was too young for Studio 54, but a lot of the Palladium.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Danceteria?
Guest:A little bit of Danceteria, yeah.
Marc:Mud Club?
Guest:Never went to the Mud Club.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The Tunnel.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Limelight.
Guest:Limelight.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I had a bad night there.
Guest:Yeah, I'm sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was like a church.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I kind of remember being sweaty and running around and not having fun.
Guest:And that was back in the 80s when they'd let underage people into the clubs.
Marc:Into everything.
Guest:Yeah, everything.
Marc:Yeah, and I just remember there were people having a good time, but that eluded me.
Marc:I was chasing a good time, but I wasn't doing it properly.
Guest:I was having a good time because I wasn't doing any drugs or anything.
Guest:I was just dancing my ass off.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:That's what the healthy, fun people did.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Some people did drugs and dance their ass off.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Me, I just did the drugs and got angry at people dancing.
Yeah, I get it.
Marc:What the fuck are they doing?
Marc:They don't get it.
Marc:They don't get it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:All right, so getting back to this, now I'm tracking stage fright.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Because it seems to me that if you're acting well, because I'm not a great actor, I'm not really a trained actor, but I've done my own show and I learn things.
Marc:But I was really like I was having these moments where I'd be having a scene with somebody and I'd be moved by their performance.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I was reacting to it inside.
Marc:Like, I'm like, oh, she's really doing a good job.
Marc:I'm about to cry.
Marc:And they're like like and I think it was appropriate for the character.
Marc:But if you're that available, that's got to be part of it.
Marc:Like, you know, not that you're going to be rejected, but just that the the emotional exhaustion that is about to happen.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No?
Guest:Yes, yes, yes.
Guest:I mean, I think that's a big part of why I think getting to my age and a lot of actors who do get to my age eventually stop wanting to do it.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Like to retire from public life and just put this on the back burner and just not do this.
Guest:Very.
Guest:Yes, it's exhausting.
Guest:It's tiring.
Guest:Is it rewarding, though, still?
Guest:I mean, is it not?
Guest:It's a relative term, rewarding.
Guest:I mean, it's rewarding...
Guest:when it's over.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But the adulation is not enough after a certain point.
Marc:No.
Guest:That makes it harder.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The adulation, I mean, I think, I don't know, maybe there's a neurotic part of this that's also like the more people like it, the less you sort of are motivated.
Marc:But then I imagine that plays into this sort of like I'm tricking them, I'm a fraud.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like, what are they thinking?
Marc:We're doing this every night, suckers.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And now, you know, then you're some sort of emotional criminal.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But, like, I guess that I get it is relative that, like, if the process is not...
Guest:It helps me, which is a horrible thing to have to admit, and this is a terrible confession to make, but it helps me to have a certain amount of contempt for the audience.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, that helps the stage fright if I despise them from the get.
Guest:Really?
Guest:It helps.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's nothing personal.
Guest:It has nothing to do with them.
Guest:I don't want them to think I truly feel that way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's just a tactic that I use.
Guest:How does that help?
Guest:I just stand behind the curtain before the show starts and just go, fuck them.
Guest:Fuck you.
Guest:Fuck all of you.
Guest:You fucking idiots.
Guest:That helps.
Guest:It's show time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then da-da-da-da.
Guest:Which is a terrible thing to admit because I don't want them to think that I actually am thinking that.
Guest:Well, I think it frees you from judgment, from projecting judgment.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That's that trick.
Marc:It's simply a tool that I use.
Marc:As opposed to them, you know, knowing that, like, you know, I could disappoint them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They might not like me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They saw this.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You're in my house now, motherfuckers.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's how it is.
Marc:It's a theater show.
Marc:Some of the people there might have seen the original.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:Because they're 90.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:John Guare's in the audience.
Marc:Oh, that's the worst.
Guest:What if I don't look like I'm having fun?
Yeah.
Guest:And you didn't.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:You didn't hate John Guare enough that night.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Well, they're never going to say the right thing.
Marc:Because then you get off stage, even if the crowd had a great time, you're wide open.
Marc:And some idiot comes up to you and goes like, that was pretty good.
Marc:And you're like, what do you mean pretty good?
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:What does that mean?
Marc:Qualify everything.
Marc:You were brilliant.
Marc:And then you're like, nah, I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You can't win.
Guest:No, you can't win.
Guest:But you should just, every time you go, first of all, you have to go backstage and then you have to tell them they were great.
Guest:And it has to be, I don't care if you're lying.
Guest:You just have to say everything was amazing.
Marc:You're training people who are able to get backstage.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Be nice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Why once, I mean, I was the same way, but I don't think I ever thought about it the way you're thinking about it.
Marc:I would find, like, I would see an audience in a comedy club or wherever, and I would just feel a vibe.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like, I'm like, those four guys.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:No, not them.
Marc:Something not happening there.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:They're going to fuck up that whole section.
Guest:And it's a different relationship you have with them anyway in that room.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I can't hide behind the character.
Guest:We've got this marvelous gossamer wall between us and the audience.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:That offers a little bit of perfection.
Marc:When he first started, I said, you know, we're on a commercial break, and I said...
Marc:He goes, man, how do you do this every night?
Marc:Like it was early on.
Marc:We just got to tell yourself to hide the hate.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just do that.
Marc:Hide the hate.
Marc:Hide the hate.
Marc:That's a mantra.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Hide the hate.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or in my case, don't just openly hate them.
Marc:That's a that's a great way to prepare.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, it's not healthy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:For some.
Guest:But if it works for you.
Guest:So then realizing to at the end, you know, it wasn't about them.
Guest:It wasn't about them.
Marc:You don't stop in the middle of a song and go like, you fucking idiots.
Marc:Yeah, no, you don't.
Marc:Why are you entertained by this?
Marc:It's old.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And I genuinely do appreciate that they've been there.
Guest:I mean, when we did the Coast of Utopian, we'd have these like marathon days.
Guest:This was the three plays, the trilogy by Tom Stopper about the Russians.
Guest:And there were some Saturdays when we do all three plays in one day.
Guest:Each play three hours long.
Guest:So it's nine hours.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we'd start at 11 a.m.
Guest:and finish at 11 p.m.
Guest:And we'd had a cast of like 44 actors.
Guest:And those experiences were really extraordinary.
Guest:And you loved that because at the end of that day, that audience who'd been sitting there with you the whole time.
Marc:You've all been through that.
Guest:It was an extraordinary experience.
Guest:Full of gratitude and appreciation and also shared community and a journey.
Marc:And that big a cast.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Huge.
Guest:Beautiful.
Marc:And I imagine that element of theater probably more than movies or television that...
Marc:you know you you live in this community yes totally and it's a very intimate community you know like i you know sadly i'm not sure i know all the gaffers names on the show i just did right but you know but in theater you'll get there you'll get there oh yeah yeah you'll get their names yeah tonight at the wrap party yeah yeah i'll figure oh yeah it's your wrap party tonight i'll wrap party tonight oh yeah yeah for the o'neill's real o'neill's yeah how many did you just do
Marc:We just did 16.
Marc:16.
Marc:That was the second order?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was the first order?
Guest:13.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And do you people liking the show?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, our reviews are good.
Guest:We got on a couple of like best of lists, which was good.
Marc:Well, I think like, I don't know that it's, I can't remember the last time that that's really been done.
Marc:Like the sort of Irish working class family thing.
Guest:Irish working class family with the gay son, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's probably never been done as out.
Guest:In this way, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:There was the unspoken gay son.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Marc:The priest.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or the gay son who's not supposed to be gay, but everybody knows he's gay.
Guest:But they make him seem like he's not gay by making him like a nerd or something.
Marc:And do you find this character fun and challenging?
Guest:I do, yeah.
Guest:I do.
Marc:You're a mom.
Guest:I know, again.
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:And now I guess I'm going to keep playing moms because I'm 46 and that's what happens to women in this business.
Marc:What, do you want to play a 15-year-old?
Guest:No, I'd like to play a 46-year-old single woman once, maybe.
Marc:And have it be the lead.
Guest:Who knows?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Or not.
Guest:Look, I'll take the work I can get.
Guest:I'm not complaining.
Marc:Can we just go back to Steppenwolf for a minute?
Marc:that experience that like i would think that if you learned from doing that steppenwolf must have been a sort of like cathartic and important time yeah and because like i i don't know what happens there but it just seems about like in terms of getting emotionally present and working shit out on stage yeah that's at a premium there yes and
Marc:So that was true?
Guest:I think so, yes, yes.
Guest:Although I had no formal training, as we've talked about.
Guest:Right.
Guest:In a way, I think that sort of serves me in that environment.
Marc:And who did you work with?
Guest:John Malkovich.
Guest:I worked with a lot of the company members.
Guest:Yeah, I worked with John Malkovich and Fran Guinan and Al Wilder and...
Guest:Yeah, a lot of people from that company.
Guest:Marianne Mayberry.
Marc:Was there an unspoken thing or did they know that they had this tone that they were working with?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I think it's not unspoken.
Guest:I think they know it and they're conscious of it and they cultivate it in an intelligent way.
Guest:I'm not saying it's, you know.
Marc:Was there a manifesto that you were aware of?
Guest:No, but I think they had a general attitude about why they do it, what interests them about doing it.
Marc:Which was what?
Guest:Um, I want to say, um, I mean, I don't, I don't know exactly how to articulate it, but I want to say it's sort of a, uh, just a relationship with an unselfconscious type of performance that's rooted in some sort of weird Midwestern work ethic and ethos that is based in kind of, uh, you know, a heavy, a diet heavy in beef.
Yeah.
Marc:I think you did it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You summed it up.
Marc:I managed.
Marc:They put that on the brochure.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:This production.
Marc:A little bit about Steppenwolf.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And they just quote that.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:The beef tag is good.
Marc:So you were there for what?
Marc:Did you live in Chicago?
Guest:Well, when I was working there, yeah.
Marc:For months on end?
Guest:Yeah, when I did the shows there, I was there for like four or five months.
Guest:And then I went back...
Marc:a couple of years later and i did playboy the western world there the irish thing and um and then and that's when i joined the company that's what i think now you're a new yorker like it took me years to realize and to accept that chicago is definitely a great city and it's its own city like you know like because you when you spend time in new york you compare everything to new york right and there's not very much it compares to it but like after going to chicago over the years i'm like this is its own thing i love chicago i have i love it
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that's where I'd go if New York fell into the sea, which it's looking more and more likely will happen.
Marc:Culturally or otherwise.
Marc:Precisely.
Marc:Literally or culturally.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yes, exactly.
Marc:I don't know what's going to happen there.
Marc:I don't know how New Yorkers are reacting to the emperor living there.
Guest:Not well.
Guest:Not well.
Guest:None of us can believe that this douchebag we've known about since the 80s, we've all known.
Marc:We've all known this guy.
Guest:We've seen him around.
Guest:He's been in the papers.
Guest:We know what an asshole he is.
Guest:None of us can believe he's a president now.
Marc:Yeah, and now he's the king, and he's in the middle of Manhattan.
Guest:And he's a king.
Guest:He thinks he's a king.
Guest:He lives in his ugly, tacky building that was despised from the day it went up.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And now he's ensconced there like some kind of.
Marc:It's just like this giant middle finger.
Guest:Grotesque.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:In the middle of Manhattan.
Guest:It's just like a giant turd.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Just a polished turd.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Blocking traffic.
Guest:The traffic is worse than ever.
Guest:Took me three hours to get to the airport the other day.
Guest:Three freaking hours.
Marc:From Brooklyn?
Guest:No, from Midtown to JFK.
Marc:Because of Trump congestion?
Guest:Because of Trump-related congestion.
Marc:Trump-related traffic?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Trump-related... Well, they shut down a section of 5th Avenue.
Guest:Then they shut down a section of 56th Street.
Guest:It's ridiculous.
Right.
Guest:He better pay.
Guest:He better pay for that.
Marc:He's so rich.
Marc:He'll find someone else to pay for it.
Marc:He's so rich.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How are you feeling about heading into this?
Marc:Horrible.
Marc:Horrible.
Marc:Horrible.
Marc:Now the fight becomes intense again.
Guest:it's intense and uh and also beyond anything that's ever been way beyond anything that's ever been right i mean this is uh a horror an unspeakable horror that cannot possibly we can't even predict how awful it's going to become right within a matter in a matter of minutes yeah it's a tsunami yeah it's a tsunami of horror
Marc:Yeah, I'm finding myself very, like, you know, whatever obstacles you overcome personally.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Is all sort of like, you know, like now it's overshadowed.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like there's dread.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's terror.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That, you know, you can't even have that breath of like, I'm doing okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, you can't.
Guest:No, everything.
Guest:Everything.
Guest:The personal thing and then the rest of it.
Guest:I'm feeling simultaneously paralyzed, enraged, depressed, anxious, furious.
Marc:Do you have any sort of hope or confidence in the arts to counter this?
Guest:Like, because I know that, like, there was some sort of... We didn't do very well preventing it, so I'm not sure.
Marc:So, like, because there was this initial kind of, you know, kind of aggravated, optimistic reaction that, like, you know, punk rock, you know, is going to... But, like, when you really think about it retrospectively, even the art in the 80s... Right.
Marc:It did raise cultural awareness, but what is its real power to push back?
Marc:I mean, ultimately, pushback has to be organized communities and minority communities and real sort of action.
Guest:And concepts of protest are different now than they were then.
Guest:Well, I don't know how activated the youth is.
Guest:Well, we'll see, but it's hard to be...
Guest:You know, in this sort of atomized world where where information culture, you know, shorter retention spans, the ease of connection with none of the follow through.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Twitter and all that bullshit.
Guest:You know, everybody's saying, oh, Twitter's the new way of revolution.
Guest:No, it's not.
Guest:No, it's not.
Guest:No, it's not.
Marc:Revolution's the new way of revolution.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:It's like, you know, bodies in the street.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Hopefully, you know, stand.
Guest:And we'll be there.
Guest:I'll be there on the 21st.
Guest:I'm going to march along with everybody else and do my best.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We'll see.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I don't... But I'm still in a state of every morning I wake up going...
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Donald Trump is the president of the... What?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then the tears come and then the ennui and then the fear and then the coughing and then... Right.
Marc:And then, like, I guess I got to go to work.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's weird because it seems like work is somewhat the one thing that kind of keeps you from falling completely down the hole.
Marc:And I imagine that doing a show that has some social relevance is good.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:It makes me feel good to know that there's people out there who actually have relationships with their parents again because of watching the show.
Marc:Is that true?
Guest:Yes, it is.
Guest:It is true.
Marc:I've been told this many times.
Marc:No kidding.
Marc:It's very, very moving.
Marc:It's lovely.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's a great feeling.
Marc:Just that one email or that one person.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I feel myself choked up now.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We were in West Hollywood for this event at a bar in Boys Town.
Guest:They do a live screening of our show every week.
Guest:at this bar called Revolver and we were there last week and a bunch of people came over and said, you know, how much, first of all, how much my character reminds them of their mom or, you know, and then one guy comes over and he says, I just want you to know because of your show, my mother and I started talking again.
Guest:We hadn't talked for years and we started talking when the show came on last year and she started watching it and now we're friends and she gave me away at my wedding to my husband.
Guest:I mean, that's an incredible thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So we have that.
Marc:But that's not nothing.
Guest:It's not nothing.
Marc:It's huge.
Marc:And I think looking into the next four years, that's what we have to do.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Because I've said it before that what the popular vote means is that we have to watch each other's back and that we're not some sort of weird cloistered minority.
Marc:No, no, we're not.
Marc:We're the majority.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And now we've got to figure out how to keep culture and humans acting fucking properly.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:And being decent.
Marc:Decent.
Marc:Decency.
Marc:Oh, right.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:You didn't think that that was a risk, but it becomes a risk pretty fucking quick.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:Well, I knew it was a risk because of these assholes for the last eight years being indecent.
Guest:I mean, that's what they do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was.
Guest:But not empowered.
Guest:I was exactly.
Guest:But now they are.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I was that was that's the part.
Guest:Oh, the indecence one.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:So, how'd the new season go?
Marc:It went really well.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah, really well.
Marc:You like the scripts?
Marc:Who's writing it?
Guest:I love the scripts.
Guest:It's Casey Gettinger and David Windsor, Casey Johnson Gettinger and David Windsor and a wonderful stable of brilliant, very smart people.
Marc:Staff writers?
Guest:Yeah, a lot of them.
Guest:There's like 19 of them.
Guest:It's crazy.
Marc:And how'd you get the gig?
Marc:You just auditioned?
Guest:No, amazingly, I didn't have to audition.
Guest:Can you believe that?
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:Your thing.
Guest:I couldn't believe it.
Guest:Well, you know, it's loosely based on Dan Savage.
Marc:Does he have a credit on it?
Guest:He does.
Guest:Oh, that's great.
Marc:Executive producer, yeah.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I love him.
Guest:I love him, too.
Guest:I love him, too.
Guest:He's not around that much anymore.
Guest:He's kind of taking a back seat, but his producing partner, Brian Pines, is there all the time.
Guest:And, yeah, so Dan called me.
Guest:Dan Savage called me up.
Guest:And, you know, we have a relationship, a little bit of one.
Guest:We sort of like...
Guest:A little bit of email friendship.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Just from our work as activists in our various fields.
Guest:And we've had conversations before.
Guest:I've been on his podcast.
Guest:And no, he called me up and he said, I want you to play my mother or the woman based on my mother.
Guest:And I said, well, yeah, okay.
Guest:I'll see you there.
Guest:What time?
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what network's it on?
Guest:ABC.
Guest:So it's like, it's America.
Guest:I know, it's crazy.
Guest:And it's wonderful.
Guest:It's on a night with like, we got the blackish, you know, we got the fresh off the boat with an Asian family, Asian American family.
Guest:I feel like they're just, you know, and now, you know, ABC now has the first black woman running the network in their history, who's a fantastic woman.
Guest:They have an interest, I think, in actually sort of, I mean, obviously it's network television, you know, it's got its commercial appeal in all of this, but they're making a strong effort to actually tell stories about a diverse cross-section of people, which I appreciate.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's an amazing thing because like the power is still network television still means something.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Despite whatever the media landscape looks like.
Guest:And that's when you went, you know, like the guy, like what happened when the guy came over to me the other night and was like, oh, wait a minute.
Guest:This is a real thing.
Guest:This is big.
Guest:No matter what happens during the day, when you read the script, you go, I'm not sure about this joke or that.
Guest:In the end of the day, which is an expression I hate, but I've just used it, people are moved by these things.
Guest:People's lives are changed by these things.
Guest:You come into their house and you become a part of their world.
Guest:It's wild.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's wild.
Marc:And also that generation of people who's not on Amazon necessarily watching whatever.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Which is kids and old people.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Those are important.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:And how's this experience television-wise, you know, versus, like, I mean, you did a long time on Raising Hope.
Guest:Raising Hope, it was great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's a completely different experience.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Greg Garcia, whom I love and would work with, again, in a heartbeat...
Guest:Is a much more sort of central leader, centralized showrunner and creator and has his hands in everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you really feel Greg Garcia.
Guest:Do you know what I'm saying?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I love working for him.
Guest:This is different.
Guest:And there's a larger staff of writers.
Guest:There's a, you know, there's a sort of a triumvirate of showrunners.
Guest:And it's a little bit more, you know, sort of spread out between them.
Guest:And the show itself, I think, is more, even though there's a lot of risks taken.
Guest:I think in some ways it's more family.
Guest:It's sort of a little more, maybe a little more conventional.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:Because the delivery system has to be understood.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:There's a generation of people you don't want to tune in and go like, what's happening?
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:They're still out there, those people.
Guest:And it's ABC and the other one was Fox.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, that's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you got a wrap party tonight.
Guest:We got a wrap party tonight.
Guest:Where's your wrap party?
Marc:Downtown.
Guest:Yeah, ours is somewhere else.
Marc:Hollywood.
Marc:Where are you shooting mostly?
Guest:uh abc disney okay it's great in burbank yeah okay i love it and they've built all the sets oh yeah it's great it's i love that about show business does that excite you do you have i love it i love a lot i love working on a lot yeah i really do we shot raising hope in a in a in a warehouse in in way you know where they used to make the porn movies where in the valley yeah way way out there it was just a warehouse like a convert where now we're on a lot and i love i love being on a lot
Guest:You've got to go through the gate.
Marc:The Disneyland's beautiful.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:We're shooting.
Guest:You get your little badge.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I love that.
Marc:And then you know the guy at the gate.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It's like driving on.
Marc:You know, I love that.
Marc:Paramount.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:Yeah, it's like studio.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:We're shooting on stages, but I'm always fascinated where, you know, it's the same in theater, though, where you have this room, and then just outside the room, there's this guy standing around that built a room.
Guest:Right, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then when you walk into the room, it's like a magic space.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's magic space.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's so exciting.
Marc:So what do you do now?
Marc:Are you going to go back to New York?
Guest:I go back to New York.
Guest:I'm going to go.
Guest:I'm going to, I'm going to Edinburgh for the new year.
Guest:Then I'm going to go to London for a little while, see my fella.
Guest:yeah edinburgh yeah for what for new year's for hogman just oh really yeah just for fun i'm yeah i'm gonna take in my mom i'm gonna meet my guy and then i'm gonna come back here i bought a house out here mark what the heck yeah i bought a house out here do you like i never thought i would but i i've just it's the right thing to do well now that the world's gonna fall apart and everything's gonna implode yeah real estate real estate baby real estate is that it
Guest:That's the plan because also I'm getting older.
Guest:Is this something you heard?
Guest:The work's going to dry up eventually.
Guest:No, this is the way to do.
Guest:So now if I have real estate, then I have some passive income.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:When everything falls apart.
Marc:You can rent it.
Guest:That's the idea.
Marc:To the people that are here seeking asylum.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:When California detaches itself from the union.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:It's about time.
Guest:I bought my first house at 42.
Guest:This is my second home.
Marc:It is.
Marc:Oh, you bought the one in Brooklyn, too.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Thank you, television.
Guest:Thank you very much for helping me to become an adult.
Marc:Yeah, very good.
Marc:Yeah, this is the first one I bought.
Marc:And then, like, for me, though, I can't understand why people buy other ones.
Marc:Like, they're leaving this place.
Marc:Like, but I have the cats.
Marc:They're comfortable here.
Guest:Well, I see.
Guest:I don't have cats.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:No, but I mean, having them in different places is one thing.
Marc:But the idea that, like, I live alone.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And I have a second bedroom that I don't really know what to do with.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I have a closet in there.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sure, that's good.
Guest:And my records.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But, like, the idea is, like, well, you should get a bigger house.
Marc:I'm like, eh.
Guest:No.
Guest:That sounds... You're fine.
Guest:You don't need a bigger house.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I'd need to fix this one, though.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you like California now, though.
Guest:Well, I have a lot of family here, and I'm used to it.
Guest:And I do.
Guest:I mean, when I was a kid, I didn't like it so much.
Guest:Now I enjoy it.
Guest:I think as I get older, it's more of a retirement community type feel for me.
Guest:It's like, you know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You mentioned Elaine Stritch.
Marc:Are you friends with her?
Marc:Did she pass away?
Guest:She's passed away.
Guest:Just recently, though.
Guest:Yes, we did get to know each other a little bit.
Marc:It seems like there's something in common there somehow.
Guest:People have mentioned that.
Guest:People have made note of that.
Guest:Does that bother you?
Guest:No, of course not.
Guest:It's a lovely compliment.
Guest:She was a little nuts.
Guest:I like to think I'm maybe not quite as high maintenance, but I'm getting there.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It'll all happen for you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So when you're out here, you spend time with your siblings?
Guest:Yes, I see my siblings.
Guest:I see my family.
Marc:And you like the weather?
Marc:I like it.
Marc:I enjoy it.
Marc:It's weird how you come around to LA.
Marc:You do.
Marc:You come around to it.
Marc:Like when you're a New Yorker?
Guest:I like the Huntington Gardens.
Guest:I like to go stroll through the beautiful gardens.
Marc:My girlfriend does that like three times a week.
Marc:Yeah, it's really, really nice.
Marc:She's a member.
Guest:Me too.
Marc:I'm a member.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:I'm probably going to see you there when she is able to drag me out there.
Guest:Yeah, you go on a Sunday.
Guest:You have a nice tea.
Marc:It's all-you-can-eat tea.
Marc:I'm sure you've seen her.
Guest:Possibly, yeah.
Marc:But do you have the little sandwiches and stuff?
Guest:Yeah, the sandwiches and the little scones.
Marc:She usually goes to the Chinese garden to get the tea there.
Guest:I love the Chinese garden.
Guest:Oh, beautiful.
Guest:I haven't had the tea at the Chinese garden yet.
Marc:I should try that.
Marc:Well, yeah, they have Chinese tea and almond cookies and stuff.
Guest:Yeah, lovely.
Guest:All right.
Guest:All right.
Marc:Well, best of luck with the reception of the new season.
Guest:Thank you, Mark.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Spunk.
Marc:Courage.
Marc:Attitude.
Marc:New York.
Marc:You can also go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Order a poster.
Marc:Check my tour dates.
Marc:I'm heading out.
Marc:A lot of dates coming up.
Marc:Toronto sold quick.
Marc:I guess I got some fans up there in Canada.
Marc:Canada.
Marc:Canada.
Marc:Canada.
Marc:Canada.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No sneeze.
No sneeze.
Marc:Boomer lives!