Episode 752 - Ritch Shydner / Anthony Bourdain
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucking delics what the fuck tuckians what's happening i'm mark maron this is my show this is my podcast wtf welcome to it
Marc:We did something special for you this week, folks.
Marc:It's a new episode of the Mark and Tom show that went up yesterday.
Marc:It's another hour of me and the amazing Tom Sharpling from the best show just hanging out in a hotel room trying to figure things out.
Marc:We haven't done one of these in almost four years, so if you missed it, go check it out.
Marc:If you're subscribed to WTF, it's right there in your podcast feed, and you can always get it at WTFPod.com.
Marc:The previous three Mark and Tom shows are now available on Howl Premium.
Marc:Go to Howl.fm and use the code WTF to start your subscription.
Marc:This is the fourth installation of the Mark and Tom show.
Marc:Mr. Sharpling and myself, a socialized...
Marc:infrequently but when we do we try to get we try to do it we try to get in it and do the talking and try to work some stuff out i i do call him on the phone occasionally when i need to uh to get some details about records and things he's a he's a big record guy and he's one of the funniest broadcasters alive mr tom sharpling is from the best show you should check that show out too but it's sort of like um
Marc:It's a lot of mutual respect between me and Tom as guys who don the mic.
Marc:And we have a great time.
Marc:Very few people make me laugh as much as Tom Sharpling does.
Marc:You should get that box set, the best show box set with him and John Worcester.
Marc:I have it in my iPod and it comes up randomly.
Marc:Hilarious.
Marc:He truly makes me laugh.
Marc:And how great is it?
Marc:To hang out with people that truly make you laugh.
Marc:I laugh a lot in here.
Marc:I do laugh a lot in here during this show sometimes.
Marc:It's one of the great perks.
Marc:There's a lot of amazing perks to this.
Marc:Sometimes I go out and do these keynote speeches.
Marc:I'm no Ted talker.
Marc:I'm no wizard.
Marc:I'm no wearer of the strange ear mic.
Marc:I do not kind of deliberately walk from side to side on a stage reading off a teleprompter with a presentation.
Marc:But occasionally I'm asked to tell my story at certain types of digital conferences and whatnot.
Marc:And I flew Monday night.
Marc:Monday afternoon, I flew to Minneapolis, Minnesota, and had dinner at a place called Hot Dish, and it was very good.
Marc:And then I went over, saw my old pal Gail from college, and then I went over to Acme.
Marc:It was Monday night.
Marc:They had an open mic going.
Marc:I dropped in.
Marc:It did about 10 minutes.
Marc:Rambled on and ranted a bit about the political situation, because that's happening now.
Marc:And then the next morning, I woke up, and at 9.20, I got on stage in front of about 600 people.
Marc:It gives me a weird appreciation.
Marc:You know, I go up, I tell the story of the podcast, I play some clips, I show some pictures of people that have been on.
Marc:And, you know, everything that's happened to me in here in this garage, you know, Brendan and I, my producer,
Marc:and business partner.
Marc:I had no intention.
Marc:We're not business people.
Marc:I'm a fucking comedian that has his head in a million places usually, and I can barely keep my schedule straight, and Brendan's a very organized, very brilliant producer, but we just work.
Marc:We had no idea how to run a business, so now I have to sort of backload the idea that I...
Marc:kind of knew what I was doing.
Marc:But the truth is, I don't do that.
Marc:I just go up there and I riff through what I do.
Marc:And, you know, I tried to just be honest.
Marc:And it's a good story, I guess.
Marc:And they paid me money for it.
Marc:So that's my secret life.
Marc:It's something I wanted to know how to do.
Marc:It's a nice gig, make a little extra scratch and, you know, enter a world that I don't know about.
Marc:And a lot of people work in office and business situations.
Marc:And every time I do one of these or I go into one of those types of situations, I realize how, you know, I've not done that.
Marc:And it's like it's like a different planet.
Marc:It's like planet real job.
Marc:And my hat's off to you if you can if you can pull that off.
Marc:I have some gigs coming up.
Marc:I have one tomorrow at the University of California in Santa Barbara at Campbell Hall.
Marc:I think there's a few tickets for that left.
Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com for tickets.
Marc:I've got shows coming up at Carnegie Hall, obviously, November.
Marc:I'll be in Chicago in December.
Marc:I've got Nashville coming up.
Marc:A bunch of other dates that I'll be a little more emphatic about as I get closer to them.
Marc:But on the show today, we have the comedian and road warrior that is Rich Scheidner.
Marc:He was a...
Marc:a big comic in the eighties.
Marc:He's written for television.
Marc:Now he's written a book kicking through the ashes.
Marc:My life is a standup in the 1980s.
Marc:Comedy boom.
Marc:This is a real deal guy.
Marc:Good stories.
Marc:Good to talk to him.
Marc:Anthony Bourdain is going to stop by here for a few minutes.
Marc:He already did.
Marc:We had a little conversation about his new cookbook and also about, uh, the Laura Albert episode a bit that he didn't listen to, but it was a bit worked up about, uh,
Marc:Yeah, so that's all going to happen.
Marc:Now, I wanted to read this email because there's some things that happen because of this show.
Marc:And I've talked about it before that I never anticipated.
Marc:But I get moved.
Marc:I get moved because, you know, you can talk about politics.
Marc:You can talk about pop culture.
Marc:You can talk about whatever you want.
Marc:But sometimes when you just...
Marc:talk to other people, the impact is profound.
Marc:And one of the great joys of my life, if I can have them, and it's hard because I can't tell the difference sometimes between a feeling of joy and gratitude and just sort of discomfort and sadness.
Marc:But when I get an email like this, I realize that
Marc:that something happens in here that provides something that I could never have planned or imagined and I go to my email box a lot and I get choked up.
Marc:It just says in the subject line, thanks man, hey Mark or guide slash lady who reads Mark's emails.
Marc:I really hope this email gets to you.
Marc:My name is Clint and I'm fairly new listener.
Marc:I was listening to your episode with David Crosby and when you were talking about people acting condescending towards famous artists or actors, I had to email you and say thanks.
Marc:Your hard work to put together the show plays a huge part in saving my life every day.
Marc:I'm 26 in early recovery and working the program as hard as I can.
Marc:Booze was my real demon, but opiates, coke, and just about everything else had its way with me too.
Marc:I've put together nine months and been working the steps, and I just finished going over step 12 with my sponsor.
Marc:You and your show come to mind when I think about people working the 12th step for me.
Marc:Your show offers me conversation that keeps my brain away from the obsession that
Marc:You and your guests make me laugh and cry.
Marc:I can feel again, and it's crazy.
Marc:I feel alone so much of the time, but when I listen to your show, especially when you talk recovery, I feel like I'm sitting there with people who finally get me, people that really care and have a deep understanding of pain.
Marc:My addiction brought me to a suicide attempt and rehab last December, so my life was pretty dark.
Marc:Before the drugs and booze became everything, I played the guitar, loved film, music, vinyl, reading.
Marc:And just learning, but that overwhelming loneliness and despair let the booze and drugs take over.
Marc:Now I'm doing all right and getting back into those things.
Marc:Your efforts and your show have opened that world of art back up to me.
Marc:I listen to it when I'm feeling good and anytime I'm in those darker moments when I really want to use.
Marc:Before I know it, I'm thinking about things that matter to me again, even when I can't figure out why the hell I'm not dead and what the point of going on is.
Marc:I find myself laughing out loud to myself, which is nuts to me.
Marc:It'd be cool to hear from you in some way, but I really just wanted to say thank you and screw those people being condescending towards your work.
Marc:It saves my life and shows me that life is worth living.
Marc:Thanks, Mark.
Marc:Clint.
Marc:Well, there you go, Clint.
Marc:You're hearing from me, and thank you for sending that.
Marc:It makes me feel like I'm doing something important, and I think that's something we all would like to feel.
Marc:Not only important, but helpful, and I'm glad you're doing well.
Marc:Congrats on the nine months.
Marc:So right now, I'm going to share my chat with Anthony Bourdain with you.
Marc:I did a long one with him years ago in a strange hotel that was owned by Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn when I was doing a live WTF there or something at the Bell House.
Marc:But it's been a long time since I sat down with Anthony.
Marc:And he's always something.
Marc:And his new cookbook is fun.
Marc:It's called Appetite's a Cookbook.
Marc:It's available next week, October 25th.
Marc:This is me and Anthony Bourdain.
Guest:It might be off topic, but if at some point during this conversation we can talk about the JT Leroy doc that just came out and your previous guests.
Guest:Why, you got a problem with it?
Guest:I got a serious fucking problem with this.
Marc:Well, I mean, I've gotten some of that feedback.
Marc:Were you there for the...
Guest:I was a tiny, minor, minor character.
Guest:She called me up as JT back in the day and tried to pimp out some movie actress to get me arrested.
Guest:At the time, I think I said, I don't know who you are, but you're a good writer.
Guest:But a lot of my friends are really fucking hurt by this person.
Guest:I'm really devastated.
Guest:Their career is messed up personally.
Guest:I just think it's really a fucking shameful thing to give this person a second bite of the apple.
Guest:you know, I mean, people, friends of mine were really, you know, hurt.
Guest:And, and, and I mean, you know, people who are already cynical and, and they hear from this, uh, you know, they read this writing, which was, which was often quite beautiful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, uh, in many of their cases, I mean, these are people who had had unhappy childhoods and risks and, you know, really unhappy childhoods in some, in some cases who responded to this lost soul who started calling them and talking about a life, uh,
Guest:you know, as an abused child, in poverty, addicted to drugs, hustling for a living on the streets of San Francisco, AIDS.
Guest:I mean, you know, and they responded as human beings.
Guest:And when that faith was, you know, when the story came out, rather gloatingly, I have to say, you know, a lot of their faith in any other story.
Guest:I mean, I'm talking about publishers and agents and people who just...
Guest:they were they personally of course felt very foolish right uh but you know they made this leap of faith and they did not have that faith anymore now that's uh you know they're a lot harder and a lot more cynical about the world and hurt well i think the the i i i understand what you're saying but also like it seems like that person that laura albert herself was sort of uh you know fucked up lost i
Guest:don't buy the I mean you know many people have had a very unhappy childhoods sure they don't conduct a really massive and a long-running con like this enlisting very successfully enlisting multiple players right you know the part the the the kid who played the JT part the husband all of these people she managed to keep them on board for this long-running scam for a long time while orchestrating multiple conversations with people and
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And somehow remembering to record the conversations and archive them for later use.
Marc:She recorded and archived everything.
Marc:She's kind of nutty like that.
Marc:But, I mean, I understand what you're saying, and it's definitely noted.
Marc:And I certainly felt that during that conversation that I was being worked a bit.
Marc:But I also was sort of taken by the sickness of it, which she'll cop to.
Marc:I don't know if she'll cop to being a sociopath.
Guest:How about copping or hurting people, like really badly?
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, and playing on their vulnerabilities.
Marc:I didn't feel that.
Marc:That's true.
Guest:You know, some remorse.
Guest:I would imagine there are a lot of very upset people out there.
Marc:We'll see what happens.
Marc:Well, you look well, shifting gears.
Guest:I just had four weeks of doing pretty much nothing.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Where'd you go to get that fucking tan?
Guest:Went out to Long Island.
Guest:I spend most of my life on the road going faraway places.
Guest:Where in Long Island?
Guest:South Hampton.
Guest:It's the perfect Hampton for me because nobody knows me.
Guest:It's all Republicans and golfers and people who don't give a fuck who I am.
Guest:So I don't get any dinner invitations.
Guest:Nobody asks me to benefits.
Guest:Nobody says hello.
Guest:Nobody cares.
Guest:Do you have a place out there?
Guest:No, I rent a place and I let a nine-year-old, my nine-year-old daughter, just make every major decision in my life for the entire month.
Marc:Oh, that's sweet.
Guest:Where are we going?
Guest:What are we eating?
Guest:What is daddy cooking?
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:It's all her time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Are you still with your wife?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:I mean, look, it's funny because I've got this family, I mean, I guess it's sort of a family cookbook coming out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I have a very dysfunctional family.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, my wife is basically a professional fighter.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Marc:I remember.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I haven't seen her out of a rash guard in five years.
Guest:We live, like, pretty much separate lives for the last five years.
Guest:She spends her time figuring out new ways, practicing new ways to destroy the human knee, and I'm on the road 250 days a year.
Guest:So it's not a Barbie and Ken.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Appetite's a cookbook.
Marc:Now, so when I was looking through it, it's got your, you know, obviously it's got your tone, the sort of fuck you tone.
Marc:This is what I eat.
Marc:This is how you eat.
Marc:This is the good shit, right?
Marc:But when you're, given that everyone knows that you travel all over the world and you eat everything, I mean, what was the breakdown?
Marc:What did the original list look like?
Guest:Honestly, it's mostly stuff that most people can cook at home.
Guest:So that was really the guideline?
Guest:It reflects the fact that when I'm home, I become this sort of bat shit, over-aggressive, like when saying Yenta, chasing my daughter around, saying, eat, eat.
Guest:I make her school lunch, and I cook her for dinner.
Guest:So there's like meatloaf and macaroni and cheese, and strategies and tactics of how to get through Thanksgiving and Christmas without senseless butchery.
Marc:Well, that was cool, because there's a whole...
Marc:A whole chapter on just Thanksgiving.
Guest:Well, I was in the restaurant business as a chef and a cook for 30 years.
Guest:I cooked a lot of Thanksgivings and Christmases.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, I've learned how to be organized in such a way that, you know, you might actually spend some time at the table on Thanksgiving and Christmases without having a brain hemorrhage and stress.
Marc:I do that.
Marc:I fly to Florida to cook the whole thing.
Marc:The whole thing.
Marc:I do the whole thing.
Marc:I got it down to a system.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it looks like in yours, it's a three-day prep.
Guest:Yeah, at a relaxed pace over three days, just like in a restaurant.
Guest:I take care of business in a certain way.
Guest:In restaurants, we don't do stuffing inside the turkey.
Guest:It's unhealthy.
Guest:Yeah, I don't do that.
Guest:And we sure as hell don't go out to the table and try to carve...
Guest:you know, equitable portions.
Marc:Carve it all before.
Guest:Well, no, you basically, what I do is I make a stunt turkey.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which means what?
Guest:Like a display turkey.
Guest:You know, smaller one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, with little booties on the feet.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Some stuffing inside.
Guest:And I bring it and show it to everybody.
Guest:And they go, ooh, ah, it's beautiful.
Guest:Then I go back in the kitchen where I've already roasted a big motherfucker.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which I've basically kind of taken off the bone.
Guest:Carved.
Guest:And I can slice it in a nice dominoes in seconds and throw it all out there.
Marc:That's what I do.
Marc:Like a genius.
Marc:Pull the breasts off.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Slice it like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You're wrestling with this thing out at the table, stabbing yourself.
Guest:People are screaming, fighting over the chicken.
Guest:I mean, look, generally the murder rate spikes around the holidays all across America.
Guest:So you're trying to save lives?
Guest:Is that what you're telling me?
Guest:I'm trying to save lives here.
Guest:There's a lot of underlying, you know, like long simmering arguments when you sit down at the table.
Guest:The possibilities for mayhem are high.
Guest:So you want to make sure that, you know, everybody gets enough white and dark.
Marc:Right, but we should also make note that you can forego the stunt turkey if you don't have the oven space.
Guest:Or you can just cook them in sequences.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Because what's the best part of Thanksgiving anyway?
Marc:It's a leftover.
Marc:It's a leftover.
Guest:So if you have a little extra turkey, it's no big deal.
Guest:I mean, it's all about you sitting there in your undershorts the next day eating a turkey sandwich.
Marc:What I was surprised, though, and I'm just going to get nitpicky, is that like I had a situation in a restaurant the other day where I was going to order a chicken sandwich, right?
Marc:Chicken salad.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I don't like chicken salad if it's not made from like an actual roasted or boiled chicken with the dark meat.
Marc:But you just go right to the breast.
Guest:That involved me a little bit.
Marc:What do you prefer?
Marc:I'm not saying negative.
Guest:Dark meat has more flavor.
Guest:Chefs respect it more.
Guest:But one of the painful, enduring lessons that you learn in the restaurant business is why chefs tend towards drinking too much and long periods of self-loathing and depression is because experience teaches them again and again that people don't want the good stuff, that they insist on the bad stuff.
Guest:And it's broken a lot of chefs.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's like your best efforts, you're going to be sure of one thing.
Guest:Let's say you're the best chef at the world.
Guest:You're cooking at sort of a popular restaurant that tries to give everything to everybody.
Guest:And you put a bunch of beautiful specials on the menu.
Guest:When they come in the kitchen to compliment you, it's going to be, oh, the filet mignon was wonderful.
Guest:Which pretty much you could train an intelligent monkey to do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we hate.
Marc:So you just go with the white meat, but you can make it with it.
Guest:People want the white meat.
Marc:They do, right?
Guest:If you gave it dark, they're going to bitch.
Marc:Like the old school deli chicken salad, remember?
Guest:You are going to get a whole heap of shit for that if you do it.
Marc:So they like that chunky breast chicken salad?
Guest:Generally speaking.
Guest:Now, of course, with the hipster invasion, there's kind of hope for all of us because now you've got hipsters like authentic.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Now, tell me about octopus.
Marc:It's popular now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's everywhere.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:It wasn't around before, it feels like to me.
Guest:When I started cooking, if you served squid on a menu, people would lose their shit.
Guest:Tuna was largely considered to be cat food.
Guest:Any fish on the bone with a head, my God, people would completely go bizarre.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Thank God for hipsters and their ways.
Guest:They've really opened the door to enlightenment in many ways.
Marc:But it seems like calamari has been a standard in Italian places.
Guest:For a long time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it was not anywhere near as popular when I started cooking.
Guest:And you're starting to see a lot of hooves and snouts and tails and, you know, stuff like that.
Guest:I mean, you can hardly go into a restaurant for the last 10 years and that's in pork belly and, you know, a chef with a, you know, I love pork tattooed on their chest.
Marc:And you've got like a chicken pot pie in here and you've got a recipe for hot borscht, which is fucking great.
Marc:I mean, I made that once.
Marc:Those recipes, depending on where they come from, can get pretty big for hot borscht, huh?
Guest:Yeah, but I mean, that's a dish that you can make on a Sunday and keep all week.
Guest:It's super cheap to make and it only gets better over time.
Marc:Yeah, and you do the Italian gravy and sausage in here.
Guest:Yeah, I like peasant food.
Guest:There's nothing fancy in there, really.
Guest:Roast chicken, basic roast chicken.
Guest:Everyone should know how to roast a chicken.
Guest:In fact, it's a general principle.
Guest:Wouldn't society be better if everybody, given the opportunity and a few raw ingredients, could competently cook for themselves?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I jokingly say it, but I believe it.
Guest:I think before you learn to fuck, you should learn to cook.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because in a perfect world, after you fuck, you should be able to cook an omelet for the person who just did you this kindness.
Guest:You should be able to competently make a fucking omelet to live in America.
Marc:Who the hell can't do that?
Guest:Everybody.
Guest:Really?
Guest:No one knows how to grill a backyard steak in this country.
Guest:Everybody grills backyard steaks if they've got a backyard or could afford a steak.
Marc:How do they fuck it up?
Guest:They overcook it?
Guest:They cook it too high, but the biggest mistake, what everybody does is they're poking it all the time.
Guest:They're jabbing it and poking it, checking to see if it's done inside.
Guest:And then the worst is they haul it off the grill.
Guest:And they cut into it right away.
Guest:Right away.
Marc:Wrong.
Guest:Sit it.
Guest:10 minutes, right?
Guest:I ate at Kispaka the other day.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was really nice to see.
Guest:They cooked this huge piece of meat.
Guest:It takes 45 minutes to cook.
Guest:But I'm guessing the last 10 or 15 minutes, they're just letting it sit on the board.
Guest:And man, that makes all the difference in the world.
Guest:If you just leave it alone.
Guest:Let the thing sit.
Guest:Because what's going on inside that unmolested steak is all sorts of magical things.
Marc:recirculation of its juices yeah and it comes out perfect if you cut right into it right away you get that sort of bullseye pattern you know it's fiery red in the center right and you know you've got that right it's all right everything's wrong let it let it just sort of finish yeah yeah so it just that simple thing just rest it tell me about the eggs though because like there's like this idea i remember i watched it on one of the shows that there's a that that eggs done perfectly are challenging somehow
Marc:Like to do an egg, and there's some French idea about how to do an egg.
Marc:You have a recipe for scrambled eggs in here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what makes it different?
Marc:Again, super simple.
Marc:Don't overbeat them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You want them a little ripply.
Marc:And some people like them a little runny, but that's a preference thing, right?
Guest:Look, that's a preference thing.
Guest:But, I mean, just don't overbeat them first.
Guest:I don't add cream or milk or water or anything.
Guest:I beat them up with a fork, put them in a hot pan, move them around in a figure-eight pattern, and they get just right.
Guest:You know, you want them kind of fluffy and with some nice texture and flavor.
Marc:And you got the whole roasted wild black sea bass in here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, how hard is that?
Guest:Throw fish in oven.
Yeah.
Guest:I should point out, I was not Escoffier.
Guest:I was not the greatest chef.
Guest:This is coming to you from a guy who had 30 years in the business, not a genius of creativity.
Guest:I'm a guy who's been cooking for a nine-year-old using that experience.
Marc:Yeah, you got a nice grilled cheese recipe in here for the kid, nice mac and cheese recipe in here.
Guest:Well, I think a lot of really great dishes like mac and cheese, grilled cheese, the hamburger,
Guest:The key to doing them right is to just not fuck them up.
Guest:Don't overcomplicate them.
Guest:Why are you putting all of these additional ingredients in?
Guest:I mean, goat cheese.
Guest:I don't want truffle oil in my macaroni and cheese or lobster.
Guest:I mean, you cannot improve on a good Velveeta macaroni and cheese.
Guest:I mean, man or God cannot improve on it.
Marc:Do you do the buttered crumbs on top, the buttered breadcrumbs?
Marc:I think that is an acceptable garnish.
Guest:Right, that's acceptable.
Guest:I like to make basically a thick sauce of cheddar, work my noodles in, and then sprinkle maybe a little grated parm or breadcrumbs over the top.
Guest:I like a little crust on top.
Guest:And then bake it.
Guest:Some people don't.
Guest:There are certain times in my life when I need to slip out.
Guest:No matter what I've said about fast food, I sometimes need to slip out of my apartment and pull a hoodie over my head and slide into the Colonel or Popeye's and get that nasty sort of molten, unnaturally orange mac and cheese.
Guest:And I always feel like what happens always is I'm halfway out the door and no one's recognized me.
Guest:And I'm like, yes, I've made it.
Guest:And then it's always someone will be like, oh, Anthony Bourdain.
Guest:And you're, oh, dude, dude.
Guest:What are you doing?
Guest:I've got a box set of Anal Rampage 1 through 3 under my arm coming out of the video store.
Guest:I was like, oh, no, man.
Marc:They got me.
Marc:And now I also appreciated the fact that you just said fuck dessert in this book.
Guest:First of all, I don't know how to make them, so why should I pretend that I do?
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, I'm not a pastry chef.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Most chefs I know aren't.
Guest:So why do they have these elaborate dessert sections?
Guest:They have no clue about dessert.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I don't really, if I, in my life, if I had to give up one course for the rest of my life, it would be dessert.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Cheese, on the other hand, give me a big block of Stilton and a spoon, bottle of port, and I'm happy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It covers everything.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, let's talk about In-N-Out Burger for a minute.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You love it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I think it is, look, it is not the greatest burger on earth.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:But, I mean, I love it because it's a perfect example of a freshly cooked, good ingredients, structurally sound burger.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So eating it is a pleasure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just think they make a reliably good product, and I don't have to feel bad about eating it.
Guest:It's a reasonably socially responsible burger.
Guest:They take good care of their employees, apparently, and they use good stuff.
Marc:Right, and they used to have biblical quotes.
Marc:on the packages but now they just have the number of the they don't have the full thing yeah i mean you know it's kind of interesting yeah i need to be ideologically aligned with you to enjoy your burger but if you want to go look up the they just say sometimes it's just a deuteronomy six whatever what i don't know why that is what i don't what i the goodwill towards in-and-out burger is truly remarkable yeah
Guest:I don't know whether you talked about this before, but I Instagram.
Guest:I could literally, I'll put up a picture of me with the Dalai Lama or something, or skateboarding, or doing something completely insane.
Guest:The greatest moment of my life with Iggy or Christopher Walken.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, woohoo, look at me.
Guest:And I'll get maybe 6,000 likes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I put up a picture of an In-N-Out burger sitting on a table with nothing else in the background.
Guest:I'll get like 70,000 likes and comments in minutes.
Guest:People love it.
Guest:I walk into the hotel with this reeking bag of burgers.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:They're a very nice hotel.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Or not only do you walk into a hotel with like a big bag of like fast food and they're like, they look at you like you just shat your pants.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not here.
Guest:It's like, good choice.
Marc:Excellent choice.
Yeah.
Marc:Where are you eating in L.A.?
Marc:Where are you eating tonight?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I haven't figured it out yet.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I might get a taco across the street.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:That's a good choice in L.A.
Marc:Thanks for talking, man.
Guest:Yeah, it was fun.
Marc:Anthony and I talked, and then he shuffled off into the evening.
Marc:In a fancy, fast-looking rental car.
Marc:So look...
Marc:I've known Rich on and off for a long time.
Marc:When I was coming up as a comic, Rich was always the guy that was referred to as one of the best club acts in the country.
Marc:We all knew him as just this fucking road animal that was just a killer comic.
Marc:And I saw him once many years ago when I was starting out at Stitches.
Marc:But he always heard about Rich.
Marc:And I hadn't seen him in a while.
Marc:And I'm happy he wrote this book.
Marc:It's an honest book.
Marc:And it was great talking to Rich Scheidner.
Marc:So this is me, comedian Rich Scheidner.
Marc:His book is called Kicking Through the Ashes.
Marc:My life is a stand-up in the 1980s comedy boom.
Marc:And you can get that wherever you get books.
Marc:This is me and Scheidner.
Guest:Were you a store guy?
Guest:Yeah, I played the store and the improv.
Guest:I went back and forth.
Guest:But I mean, were you like in there?
Guest:Like, I mean, were you hanging around?
Guest:I don't know if I hung around because Sam and I hung around a lot.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I hung around not because there wasn't a place to hang around.
Guest:There was a bar at the improv.
Guest:But there wasn't a bar.
Guest:You had to stand around in the hallways, like you said, in your book.
Guest:Or you're out in the back in the patio.
Guest:It was really that much of a patio there.
Guest:In front?
Guest:Yeah, there was no patio in the front.
Guest:That wasn't there then.
Guest:That wasn't there then.
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:That patio that they kind of set up then, it wasn't then back when I got in 82.
Guest:Oh, in 82?
Guest:No, it wasn't there.
Marc:I was there in 87.
Marc:It was there.
Marc:Well, maybe that is in there.
Marc:Just put a few tables out there, counter.
Marc:No, I don't remember that there.
Marc:Maybe you're right.
Marc:I don't think that was there.
Marc:You kind of had to hang out in the parking lot.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, well, that's what makes it dirty.
Marc:That's what makes it bad.
Marc:You got to hang out in someone's car behind the place, up in the fucking green room upstairs.
Marc:But where'd you start?
Marc:Where was the beginning of it?
Guest:I mean, when I first started?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was in Washington, D.C.
Guest:There were no comedy because it was 77, first time I walked on stage.
Guest:77.
Guest:77.
Guest:There was a friend of mine.
Guest:I was in law school.
Guest:It was in law school.
Guest:It was not a great law school.
Guest:It was International School of Law and Screen Door Repair.
Guest:It was not... It turned into George Mason, but when I started, it wasn't accredited.
Guest:But where'd you come from?
Guest:Where'd you grow up?
Guest:New Jersey, South Jersey.
Marc:So you're a fucking Jersey guy?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like the shore?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, Jersey Shore.
Guest:Which town?
Guest:Pennsville.
Guest:Small.
Guest:Everybody worked for E.I.
Guest:DuPont, the chemical factory.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:And their farms around.
Guest:My grandfather had their farms.
Guest:It was all a small town.
Guest:It was not North Jersey.
Guest:You think of like Sopranos, but this wasn't it.
Marc:No, I come from Jersey.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Where?
Marc:Well, I was born in Jersey City, but my grandparents were in Pompton Lakes.
Marc:My other grandparents, my father's grandparents were in Jersey City, Bayonne.
Marc:I was always in Jersey growing up.
Marc:I was the first six years of my life, Wayne, Pompton Lakes.
Marc:Yeah, you're way north.
Marc:Right, but my aunt, my father's sister, lived down in Oakhurst, which is down the shore by Monmouth Beach, right, Deal Beach.
Marc:Where are you in relation to that?
Guest:Well, we're way south.
Guest:I'm down Ocean City, Atlantic City, way south.
Marc:Atlantic City.
Marc:Yeah, Atlantic City.
Marc:Yeah, so your family's all from Jersey?
Marc:All from Jersey.
Marc:All generations?
Guest:Generation.
Guest:Listen, they got kicked out of Germany.
Guest:My cousin did a genealogy.
Guest:1721, kicked out.
Guest:Landed in South Jersey.
Guest:1721, like before this year?
Guest:Yeah, just kicked out for poverty.
Guest:It was like you just kick them out, just empty the debtor's prison, send them to America.
Guest:They landed in South Jersey, never left, and never owned anything.
Guest:ever that's generations of drunkenness never ever all tenant farmers man always you know just yeah so your father was a farmer yeah he grew up as a farmer then he became a businessman what business insurance he started he took over his his drunken grandfather's insurance so the booze plays a big part all big part man all the way down the line but you're sober how long 31 years shit
Marc:unbelievable right yeah unbelievable it is really it is fucking yeah it is but like you were like notoriously uh horrendous yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it didn't help it didn't help anything but let's track it because you were kind of your whole you know if people don't know who rich scheidner is it was because most of yeah i mean you were a big act and
Marc:during what was the comedy boom that all of us heard of.
Marc:When I started doing comedy, I'd go to clubs and they're like, yeah, it's not the same anymore.
Marc:Boom's over, it's over.
Marc:That's when I started was just with club owners going, I don't get it, I don't get it, was packed last Tuesday and they're talking about a Tuesday that was a decade ago.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I hit it right.
Guest:I hit it right.
Guest:I started at 77, so I moved to New York at 79.
Guest:But 77, so you're going to law school and you drop out?
Guest:Eventually, I did.
Guest:Were you doing well?
Guest:Do you regret that?
Guest:No, I don't regret it.
Guest:No?
Guest:No, I would not have been.
Guest:Because I would have been more interested in eating laughs from the jurors than really representing my client.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I really was addicted to it from the beginning.
Guest:The first time I got on stage, I heard the laughs.
Guest:Even one just one.
Guest:I mean, my first time, I just got like that, huh, just like one of those.
Guest:And I was like, okay, I'm coming back.
Marc:I'm coming back.
Guest:Were you like a fan of comedy growing up?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, my dad loved comedy.
Marc:Really?
Guest:I found out later, you know, he had comedy albums.
Guest:I found out later talking to him.
Guest:When he was a young guy, he used to go around and see comics in nightclubs.
Guest:Oh, yeah, because there's all the supper clubs.
Guest:Yeah, he saw these comics, and he loved it.
Guest:And if a comic came on TV, man, don't talk, man.
Guest:Don't you say a word.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Dad's got to get his laugh on.
Marc:So how bad was the booze in the house?
Marc:Bad.
Marc:Bad.
Guest:Bad, man.
Guest:Bad.
Guest:Bad, bad.
Guest:If dad wasn't laughing, fists were flying, man.
Guest:No shit.
Guest:He was wild.
Guest:He was a wild young guy.
Guest:Was he a big fucking dude like you?
Guest:You're big.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:He was a farmer, though.
Guest:I mean, I fought him.
Guest:I fist fought him in high school.
Guest:He was tough.
Guest:What was that day like?
Guest:Oh, man, that was not good, man.
Guest:What was the decision?
Guest:I think there were two fistfights where I was a definite knockout.
Guest:He knocked me out.
Guest:And then the third one, the final one, I kind of just held my ground and he just threw me out of the house.
Guest:I did okay.
Guest:And then eventually he struggled me out of the house.
Guest:Do you remember?
Guest:Why'd you draw the line?
Guest:I just had enough.
Guest:I was able to be big enough.
Guest:I got big enough.
Guest:Because he would kick your ass?
Guest:oh he was big he was he was he was not big big like he was like five nine but he was farmer strong like not muscled show muscles farmer muscle right but he was like abusive well he was when he got angry listen to you still apologizing for him
Guest:I love the guy now.
Guest:We're cool.
Guest:He's sober now, too.
Guest:He's still alive?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I talk to him all the time.
Guest:He's a great guy.
Guest:I mean, we love each other.
Marc:You got through it.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:No, forgiveness is important.
Marc:Now that you frame it like that, I thought you were just sort of like a cowering codependent.
Marc:No, no, no, no, no.
Marc:I'm honest about it.
Marc:Your dad was just, you know, he got mad.
Marc:No, no.
Guest:You know, look, Mark, on the upside of that, when I used to got fights growing up, right, I was like that cool hand Luke.
Guest:I could take a punch.
Guest:yeah you're not keep coming back eventually some guys would just quit fighting you yeah you keep coming back you were that good i was not that good because they felt bad for you no because they just got tired they were like just got tired right exactly exactly those moments you know where they go okay this guy ain't stopping okay i quit oh that's a horrendous scene in cool and it's not it's not it's not fun in real life but looking back it's funny but did you fight a lot yeah really that was your thing huh
Guest:it was because i just was i had that look i'd like look i guess it was like a blonde hair blue eyed i looked kind of weak really and people would like push and i snapped and i snapped no i wasn't that big then i wasn't big aren't you tall or am i mistaken one yeah yeah all right that's pretty tall yeah all right so you're at home you got siblings
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All younger.
Guest:How many?
Guest:Two brothers and a sister.
Marc:Really?
Marc:There's three in that maniac house?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Putting up with that shit?
Marc:Four of them.
Marc:Was everyone out of the house when he got sober?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, so that's one of those things where it's like, you know, the damage is done.
Marc:And then the guy's like, guess what?
Marc:I'm, you know, y'all help him get sober.
Marc:And then like, did he fucking, all right, I don't.
Guest:No, he did.
Guest:Go ahead.
Guest:Go ahead.
Guest:Go ahead.
Marc:Did he make amends?
Guest:Yes, he did.
Guest:To everybody.
Guest:Yeah, everybody.
Guest:He flew out here to California.
Guest:We went down to the ocean.
Guest:He made his amends.
Guest:He did.
Guest:And, you know, part of it was I made amends to him three years before that.
Guest:Was he sober, though?
Guest:The first time I did, like, a half-assed, I'm like, I don't want to, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I did it.
Guest:I walked into the house and was like, you know, hey, Dad, I did some stuff.
Guest:And he was drinking.
Guest:Like, you going to drink?
Guest:You want a beer?
Guest:No.
Guest:Well, all right.
Guest:We're done talking.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then I went back and did it right.
Guest:Useful amends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I wanted to punch you more than making an event.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Hit you with his chair.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or even.
Guest:Can we call it even?
Marc:Did you stay?
Marc:Did you go in and out or you were Stover?
Marc:No, no.
Guest:I bounced once in about 44 days.
Guest:Oh, that doesn't count.
Marc:But all right.
Marc:So he did it, huh?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know.
Marc:That's heavy, man, to me.
Marc:because i talked to other cats like my dad wasn't like that wasn't physically abusive wasn't alcoholic but like patrick stewart i talked to where you you know you grow old and you have to change the way you see somebody yeah out of forgiveness and your own fucking sanity so you don't hurt yourself and when you see them differently you start seeing everybody else differently i mean it was really hard for me walking through them yeah no trust and no
Guest:and no ability to really see somebody honestly.
Guest:I have this kind of hair trigger fight or flight thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I view everybody like that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Are they a danger, not danger?
Marc:Right.
Guest:Can I trust them?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, I don't trust them.
Guest:That's a given.
Guest:No trusting.
Guest:Right.
Marc:That's out.
Marc:That's out.
Guest:That's not even on the table.
Marc:Non-starter.
Marc:Trusting.
Marc:It's good for relationships too.
Marc:Oh, great.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:The not trusting?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:They can't win.
Marc:You're the winner and alone.
Marc:The winner and alone.
Yeah.
Marc:So you go through this, and then you get out of the house.
Marc:Are siblings okay?
Marc:Is everybody sober?
Marc:Everybody's fine.
Guest:Were you the only one?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:My sister, she's sober.
Guest:My other younger brother didn't, but he slowed down after he got five bullets put in him.
Guest:By who?
Guest:He got a neighbor, got rednecks down in Florida.
Guest:No shit.
Guest:He got one of the, he was like one of the first, the guy suckered him in one of the stand your ground things in Florida.
Guest:This happened like 2008.
Guest:Like so?
Guest:Drinking.
Guest:He was drinking.
Guest:They were both drinking?
Guest:He was drinking.
Guest:The other guy was drinking.
Guest:They had a feud for wild neighbors.
Guest:And the guy baited my brother.
Guest:He came down and took his pickup truck and drove around in front of my brother's
Guest:My brother has a fish camp.
Guest:So he drove in front of that office, you know, in the gravel parking lot, kicking up and waving his gun at my sister-in-law, who then immediately, you know, went and told my brother what he'd done.
Guest:So my brother just runs down to the guy's place.
Guest:As soon as he stepped on the guy's lawn, the guy steps out from behind a tree with a .22 rifle and shot him five times.
Guest:He baited him.
Guest:Fuck.
Guest:Yeah, he baited him perfectly.
Guest:And now are they still neighbors?
Guest:No, the guy left for Tennessee because he knew my brother got out of the hospital.
Guest:He's going to kill him probably.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, he went back to Tennessee.
Guest:You know, it's just redneck stuff.
Guest:That is redneck stuff.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Pure redneck stuff.
Guest:And does your brother still have a fish camp?
Guest:He still has a fish camp and a limp.
Guest:What is a fish camp?
Guest:And a limp.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Scars.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Big scars.
Guest:What's a fish camp?
Guest:People go fish?
Guest:People go fish.
Guest:Stocked ponds?
Guest:No, it's a big, it's a lake in Florida.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, you know, he charges people to fix their engines and stuff.
Guest:He repairs engines and he has, they park their trailers and all and then put their boats in and fish for a week or something.
Marc:Oh, I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Guest:So he rents them to spots where they, and he sells them bait and other things.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So he's had that for years?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where's your mother in all this?
Guest:Cowering or?
Marc:Seething.
Marc:Oh, seething.
Marc:Better.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:She was, you know, she was having a hard time.
Guest:She was having a hard time, man.
Guest:You know, it was easy.
Guest:She stayed with it the whole time?
Guest:But she grew up in a real abusive place, so it felt like home to her.
Guest:It just keeps repeating itself.
Guest:It does, man.
Guest:It does.
Marc:Have you tracked that with your genealogy?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Have you been able to track the alcohol?
Guest:All the way back.
Guest:All the way back.
Guest:No shit.
Guest:My mother's father, remember Sam Irwin, Senator Sam Irwin from Watergate?
Guest:He was a young prosecutor in North Carolina mountains.
Guest:They'd have this circuit where they'd go around and circuit judges, you know, because they'd set up a court because they didn't have enough money for some of these rural places to court full time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was a circuit prosecutor in a trial that my grandfather's brother was being tried for murder.
Guest:During the trial, a fight broke out in the courtroom.
Guest:My grandfather stabbed Sam Irvin.
Guest:That's my family's touch with fame.
Guest:He was one of the good guys in Watergate.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was one of the prosecutors.
Guest:He had a scar from a Hartley.
Guest:He had a scar from a Hartley in the mountains of North Carolina.
Guest:A lot of drink in there, too.
Marc:But like a lot of your family, they came through Jersey, they stayed in Jersey.
Guest:No, my mom's side's all from North Carolina.
Guest:My dad's side stayed in Jersey, always Jersey, never left South Jersey.
Guest:So like your mom's family, like hill people?
Guest:Hillbillies, total mountain folk.
Guest:Banner Elk, North Carolina.
Guest:Yeah, total.
Guest:My great-great-grandfather was a snake handler, preacher, and a moonshiner.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Covered both sides.
Guest:Did you spend time out there?
Guest:Oh, I spent summers up there.
Guest:I'd go up there, and the beginning of every summer, I'd spend like four summers in a row up there.
Guest:And they'd drop me off beginning of summer, and I'd fight for two days.
Marc:yankee yankee really and then be fine for the rest of the summer all right he's all right i'm fascinated with that shit it's all part of your yeah it's all part of it didn't ask for it didn't look for it but it's like you know you want to go outside and you had to go outside because the cabin they lived in was nothing but like it's so interesting what families bring because you would have just been sort of jersey you know working class yeah and then you got this whole other world you get to go yeah and deal with yeah this whole other dark world because of family yeah
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So you get out, you get into college somehow?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:In D.C.?
Guest:No, I went to Gettysburg College in Pennsylvania, and then I couldn't get into any law school.
Guest:I went home and managed a bar for a year.
Marc:Oh, good for you, an alcoholic managing a bar.
Marc:So when does the booze start really fucking...
Guest:because well obviously you kept at it pretty good for a long time and you were able to finish college yeah i did so you weren't that fucking out of control no i got through it i got through it i nearly you know nearly failed out the sophomore year but i got through it i changed majors got in there one where i could just you know sociology where i could just fill blue books with bullshit right you know but i got out of the ones we acquired actual answers blue books
Guest:essay tests oh i just got like anxiety yeah blue books yeah the worst so you're in dc you're in law school where where is this comedy show it was uh a classmate howard vine says you're funny man we you should go do i don't even know if we knew to call it stand-up or whatever i mean i've been watching comics for years right and he took me to this coffee house it was in the basement of this church it was sort of a famous dc
Guest:coffee house where people would come through, Roberta Flack, other singers.
Guest:So it was in 77.
Guest:It's just really in a basement.
Guest:In Georgetown?
Guest:No, this was in Northwest.
Guest:It was a place called Thomas Circle.
Guest:It was in a basement of a church.
Guest:And it was just a bunch of people playing chess.
Guest:I mean, I followed a poet.
Guest:So this is like the sort of tail end of the hippie thing.
Marc:Yeah, it was really a bunch of hippies in an underground bunker.
Marc:What was left of them?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:What was 77 he said?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:yeah so comedy was happening but it was still there were no clubs no most comics were opening for musical acts that's all i did when i first started okay so you do this gig you go up with what five minutes i planned i planned five minutes i wrote it out and i pretty much said it the way i'm you know i almost read it off the paper i could have just read it off the paper i just memorized it and walked up there and did it uh-huh and i got like one reaction like one huh
Guest:And I just went back and kept, I literally went back.
Guest:Looking for more of those?
Guest:And rewound it to that, rewind it, rewind.
Guest:I mean, just kept playing it over and over again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was just surprised I got any kind of reaction.
Guest:And I was so excited.
Guest:And then he found more places.
Guest:Then I started going into these pubs that had these singer-songwriter nights, and I talked my way onto it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I started going around, and then I was like, they let me, they said, he can host.
Guest:People started looking for me, like, hey, where were you last week?
Guest:You didn't show up.
Guest:So I knew I was starting to do something.
Guest:Because you were the only comic, right?
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:So I was doing something different.
Guest:And then you start getting MC gigs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That makes sense.
Guest:Yeah, they go, let me MC the night.
Guest:And I'd MC night, of course, I'd do more material in between.
Marc:That's how you build the act.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you do that for how many years?
Guest:I do that for like, I was doing it for about six months in a place open called L. Brookman's.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This guy put my friend in school.
Guest:It was in the summer of 77.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she said, she brought me an ad from the Washington Post newspaper and it classified, said, comics, any comics want to do comedy, come to this place.
Guest:And so I showed up and Louis Black showed up and Kevin Rooney and all these people showed up from around DC that read this ad or somebody told them like me.
Guest:No shit.
Guest:And we started doing comedy there.
Guest:77?
Guest:Ron Zimmerman, yeah.
Guest:Ron Zimmerman.
Guest:John Heyman.
Guest:John Heyman was funny.
Guest:Bill Masters.
Guest:A bunch of guys who still stayed in the business.
Guest:Some of them became writers or whatever.
Marc:I don't know where Ron Zimmerman is.
Marc:He's around.
Marc:He's around.
Marc:He's in Marina Del Rey.
Marc:He's a character.
Marc:He is.
Marc:I heard he came from a big grocery fortune or something.
Guest:No, his dad had a deli in D.C.
Guest:Oh, that's different.
Guest:It was a big one store.
Guest:He had not a fortune.
Marc:It's funny how things become mythic.
Marc:Bill Masters married to Gail Berman.
Marc:I wrote a script with Bill Masters.
Marc:John Heyman was early on in the Comedy Channel.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:He did a Seinfeld episode.
Guest:He played a bubble boy, I think.
Marc:Yeah, but he's been writing forever.
Marc:Oh, absolutely.
Marc:Right?
Marc:And Zimmerman wrote the one controversial TV show that everyone held on to forever, Action, or was that what it was called?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He wrote on that.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:He wrote on a lot of shows.
Marc:He wrote some comic books, I think.
Marc:He was sort of a character that used to have people over to his house when I first moved to LA, and I met him then.
Marc:Who else did you mention?
Marc:Kevin Rooney.
Marc:Rooney, great joke writer.
Marc:Rooney's tremendous.
Marc:Great joke writer, and also funny stand-up.
Marc:Very funny.
Marc:I remember watching him.
Marc:So all you guys show up, and those guys, they had no place to work either?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:It was like this little bar.
Guest:I mean, really, like 60 people, 80 people.
Guest:Because all those fucking guys were kind of big acts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, we all started there.
Guest:We started hanging out and doing this on Fridays and Saturdays, and it became...
Guest:like the place like it was down in southeast washington yeah somebody once said how do you get the l brookmans you drive south on pennsylvania avenue until you become frightened it was a tough neighborhood and you pay these local kids to watch your cars while you're in there and then they started it became like the place people on the hill would come watch us do this and be like mercedes it's like i never heard that like it's a whole new like comedy element a whole new chunk of the history there
Marc:You know, because I've heard a lot of them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and I know all those guys.
Marc:And, you know, people who know comedy or at least who have been in the business know all those guys.
Marc:But that scene started organically pre-Comedy Club.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:With those dudes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you guys, who made the decision sort of like to say like, I'm going to New York.
Marc:Because this is not real.
Guest:I didn't even know that New York was happening.
Guest:And then a friend of mine from law school, she came to see us at Old Brooklyn.
Guest:She says, you know, there's clubs like this in New York.
Guest:I go, what?
Guest:She goes, yeah, come on up.
Guest:And she took me up to New York City.
Guest:78?
Guest:Right around then.
Guest:So that's really the beginning of it.
Guest:So that's like Catch.
Guest:And I go up there and we couldn't get in the improv, which is like 44th and 9th.
Guest:Couldn't get in the Catch Riding Star, which is on 2nd.
Guest:I know First Avenue around 77.
Marc:You had probably been going a little while.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:They were packed.
Guest:I couldn't get in.
Guest:They were just sold out.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So we ended up at the comic strip.
Guest:We got into the comic strip, right?
Guest:And I'm sitting in the audience.
Guest:You know, you're watching.
Guest:And I've been doing it for years.
Guest:I'm judging myself as these guys.
Marc:When you walked into the room and the stage was at that far end of the room, they switched it around.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I remember.
Marc:It was just narrow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I sit there and I'm watching comic after comic.
Guest:And then I'm like, I'm funnier than this guy.
Guest:I'm funnier than this guy.
Guest:And then Seinfeld came up, who I didn't know was Seinfeld.
Guest:But he had that killer material right from the beginning.
Guest:And I said, I got more work to do.
Guest:You remember who else he saw?
Guest:I don't remember anybody else with him.
Guest:And I remember the big piece about going to amusement parks.
Guest:And he had that piece about the helpless father and son bumper car team, something like that.
Guest:And I was like, this guy's got some stuff here.
Guest:So that inspired you to write more diligently?
Guest:Yeah, I just got to keep writing.
Guest:I got to keep working.
Guest:I'm not ready to come up here yet.
Guest:And then Garvin's opened, which was like the first paying comedy club.
Guest:DC, yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That opened in like January of 79.
Guest:Then I started meeting all those guys coming down from New York.
Guest:To work.
Guest:I was the MC.
Guest:I was the house MC.
Guest:Oh, shit.
Guest:So he sort of hired me and said, you know, be the house MC.
Guest:And it was like, I was getting paid.
Marc:So where did Masters and Lewis, when did they all split?
Marc:Were you guys all friends?
Marc:They came later.
Guest:Yeah, we were friends.
Guest:You know, the Garvin's, L. Brookman's thing became like one of those first times you realize there became a rivalry.
Guest:Like you couldn't work.
Guest:L. Brookman's got angry if you worked there.
Marc:Did you guys used to eat at Zimmerman's Dad's Deli?
Marc:No, I never ate there.
Marc:I never ate there.
Marc:All right.
Marc:We got a problem with Jews?
No.
Marc:Scheidner, Scheidner.
Marc:Maybe he got kicked out of Germany for a reason.
Guest:Yeah, no, it's not that.
Guest:I don't think he ever invited us.
Guest:I don't think he wanted anybody around there.
Guest:I bet you that's true.
Guest:You know, he didn't, you know, I mean, Ron Zimmerman's story, but he has his ability to tell his own story.
Guest:He had a tough childhood.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Don Draper style.
Marc:right yeah i should i i could get him in here but like sometimes you don't know where he's what frequency he's operating at you know like how cognizant or talkative he will be but uh yeah he's definitely a character yeah so all right so you're garvins i remember garvins i never worked at garvins i worked at the in dc i think i did the comedy cafe the last week it was open
Marc:And I think he owned a strip club too, that guy, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then the improv opened.
Marc:I usually worked at that improv, which was a really good improv, actually.
Marc:It was.
Marc:So Garvin's was a place, though.
Marc:That was one of the first comedy clubs.
Guest:Yeah, it was a first paying gig.
Guest:These guys in New York were coming down and people from L.A., and it was exciting.
Guest:I think they were getting like $250 a weekend, but it was huge money for them then.
Right.
Marc:And when did you start to feature and shit?
Guest:How long did that take?
Guest:I was emceeing there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then after a couple of months, the guys like Overton and Glenn Hirsch were like, you got to move to New York.
Guest:Glenn Hirsch, what happened to that guy?
Guest:I think he's still around here.
Marc:He lives out here somewhere and his wife, yeah.
Marc:So many people, it's so funny that I don't realize that I don't know people except from their headshots.
Yeah.
Marc:do you know what i mean like everyone's familiar in the clubs and you see because you keep seeing them for years and you think you know them yeah and then it's like this is glenn hirsch i'm like oh shit i know you i don't know you i know your picture like it happens at the comedy store all the time yeah because yeah i you just see these guys like i never knew who the fuck killer bees was i just oh
Marc:And then I interviewed him.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:All right, so you're doing it, and the guys are coming down from New York.
Marc:Glenn Hirsch, what does he say?
Guest:Well, all the guys, Rich Hall, Glenn.
Guest:They were like, you got to go to New York.
Guest:And I said, hey, I got to go.
Guest:So I said, that's it.
Guest:I'm done with law school, and I moved to New York.
Marc:You were still in law school doing the MCC.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I really stopped working, studying, and doing it.
Marc:I mean, just barely.
Guest:How's the booze?
Guest:Oh, I drink it when I can.
Guest:I drink on stage.
Guest:I drink, you know.
Guest:But you're managing.
Guest:I was managing, yeah.
Guest:I was young.
Guest:I was young and managing.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Young and managing.
Guest:And it helped.
Guest:It helped knock down doors.
Guest:It helped give me some bravery.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:All the drugs.
Guest:I went on stage and influenced every drug I could get my hands on.
Guest:Try that.
Guest:See how that worked.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:We did that.
Marc:You know, that was part of the initiation.
Marc:you know it's sort of like did you ever performed on mushrooms yeah yes i did it's not great no no no it's it's you know acid where you gotta you gotta hold on man you gotta hold it's so funny that people who have that that ethic of you know like you know pushing the envelope with drugs and shit if you really think about it it could do nothing but hobble you like there's no point to go on stage on hallucinogens
Marc:There's absolutely other than to be like, I did it.
Marc:Who's going to do that more than once?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:No point.
Marc:I did.
Guest:I got you, though.
Guest:Accidental.
Guest:The other times were more accidental.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because it can't be great.
Guest:No, no, no.
Marc:Like, the fear must be intensified.
Guest:It was huge.
Guest:It was huge.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got trapped into one where I was opening up for... I can't remember.
Guest:I think it was Robert Hunter, who was, like, the lyricist for the day.
Guest:He was one of those guys.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I opened up for him for a bunch of times.
Guest:So one time we were camping, all right, and doing acid.
Guest:The real shit?
Guest:Yeah, real shit.
Guest:And we dropped more.
Guest:And then I go, oh, we got it.
Guest:And then we had to drive back.
Guest:No, second dose.
Guest:And I did one stage.
Guest:Bad idea.
Guest:Bad idea.
Guest:Bad idea.
Guest:I got locked in one of these things on stage where it was like just a needle stuck on a record.
Guest:Just God and his infinite wisdom.
Guest:Man, it's infinite stupidity.
Guest:And I do, you know, it's brought you, you know, Ovaltine, whatever.
Guest:I just thought it was hilarious.
Guest:I was the only one.
Guest:I kept doing it over.
Guest:And my girlfriend was in the audience.
Guest:She threw a roast beef sandwich.
Guest:My buddy, remember, hit me with a roast beef sandwich.
Guest:And I started eating the sandwich like off the floor and stuff.
Marc:So you're in your own world.
Marc:I'm completely gone.
Marc:People were just watching.
Marc:It was just like watching.
Marc:Fucking sad animal.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:The animal's in trouble.
Yeah.
Marc:I'm sure they were well aware something was happening that was not good.
Marc:Oh, that's fucking, yeah, the second dose of acid because you want to keep the high going, never a good idea.
Marc:It's always going to be bad.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:So you moved to New York then?
Marc:Yeah, I moved to New York.
Marc:And this is 79, 80?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, 79.
Guest:79.
Guest:So the boom's about to happen.
Guest:Yeah, the only work that you could get was like pips was 75, and then they started having all these- Long Island?
Guest:Yeah, well, no, that was out in Sheepshead Bay.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Oh, yeah, Brooklyn.
Marc:Right, Pips.
Guest:That was like $75 for a weekend.
Guest:And then Jerry Stanley started opening these clubs, these one-nighters.
Marc:Pips is where Dice was and Otto and George.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And then there was one-nighters.
Marc:You could make a little money, these $55 one-nighters.
Marc:That's how I started.
Marc:Right?
Marc:The one-nighter network.
Marc:All those eastern cities.
Marc:I was in Boston in the 80s, 10 years after you, but there was a huge one-nighter.
Marc:That's how I learned how to do the work.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:That's how you learned how to do the work?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because you got to go into... Well, you don't know what the fuck you're walking into.
Marc:No.
Marc:And you got to do a half hour.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Two-man show?
Guest:We had a three-man show.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Three-man show.
Guest:And there was no designation.
Guest:Oh, you're a headliner.
Guest:We're just... Oh, everyone does a half?
Guest:But then informally, they'd start going, you close.
Marc:Right.
Guest:They'd go, you... You know what I mean?
Guest:It started to become a little hierarchy movement.
Guest:At first, it was like... I never wanted to close.
Guest:I'll take the middle.
Guest:Yeah, I take... I'll go take the hit.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Get off early and start drinking early.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:yeah yeah well i mean eventually you're like i can close but it's a time thing at the beginning it's not about skill set it's just you don't want to be stuck with short you know you know if you got to do 45 and you know you got 35 yeah there's only one way to get 45 and that's to say you could do for it oh that's how i got my first i mean that was like the comics trip in fort lauderdale opened in 1980
Guest:Oh, yeah, right.
Guest:Early 80s.
Guest:And so I was one of the first groups to go down there.
Guest:You know, I wasn't a regular comic strip act.
Guest:My girlfriend at the time was Carol Liefer, was my girlfriend.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So she was going down.
Guest:So I went down there to MC.
Guest:Like with four acts?
Guest:Four acts and me MCing it.
Marc:Everyone was doing 20s?
Marc:I can't remember.
Marc:Something like that, yeah.
Marc:But there's no designating hair?
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:And you're dating Carol Liefer, who we now know is not dateable for men?
Marc:No.
Marc:Not a lesbian yet, Carol Liefer.
Marc:No, she was not a lesbian then.
Okay.
Marc:I can safely say that.
Marc:You don't got to get defensive.
Guest:Did I seem defensive?
Guest:No, I'm kidding.
Guest:So many people, you know, so when she did become a lesbian, people would come up and go, well, look what you did.
Guest:I go, oh, really?
Guest:I have that much power?
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You disgusted her to an entire gender.
Marc:You were the last straw.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's it for that gender.
Guest:All done.
Guest:It was a delayed reaction.
Guest:It happened 15 years after we split, but it was a delayed reaction.
Guest:I did get to her.
Marc:Yeah, it sounds like you got to a lot of people.
Marc:All right, so you go down there, and that does what?
Guest:What happened was we were hanging out at a comedy condo one night, and Kelly Rogers was on the phone.
Guest:Comedy condo.
Guest:They had a phone in the condo.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That didn't last long.
Marc:Learn from their mistakes, those condo owners.
Marc:That was the first one, so they...
Marc:it's so funny that the evolution of comic condos because like you know when you do a one that when the club just opens you go to the condo like this is fucking nice within two years you're like it's a different place you don't even want to lay on the couch no it's fucking over no animals no animals and the and the cleanup would be the the club manager's girlfriend coming through and just changing a roll of toilet paper worse once a month oh there's still a few disgusto ones out there oh
Marc:The worst.
Marc:All right, so what happened?
Guest:So Kelly Rogers is on the phone.
Guest:He says, come here.
Guest:And he's got the phone in his chest.
Guest:Whatever this guy says, tell him you can do it.
Guest:So I go on the phone and the guy goes, I got this club in Ottawa and I need a headliner next week.
Guest:Can you do two 45-minute shows?
Guest:Separate 45-minute shows.
Guest:I go, yeah, I can do it.
Guest:In Canada?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He says, all right, you come on up here next week.
Guest:And we work out whatever the money was, a couple hundred bucks Canadian, whatever it was.
Guest:I said, yeah.
Guest:And I hang up.
Guest:I go, I got like 30 minutes if they buy everything.
Guest:If they get into everything I say, I got 30 tops.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Kelly's like, don't worry about it.
Guest:You'll fill it.
Guest:You'll fill it.
Guest:And I just started writing furiously, of course.
Guest:And my strategy when I got to Ottawa was this big bar.
Guest:And it was like a rock and roll play.
Guest:You used to do music.
Guest:It was a big bar.
Guest:And I'd just go up there and do everything I had that was funny to begin with.
Guest:And then the same crowd would be there next time.
Guest:And I'd just go, you know, it was like every dump my notebooks, running around the audience.
Guest:I was like Jerry Lewis.
Guest:Whatever you could do.
Guest:Not proud.
Guest:No, it didn't matter.
Guest:But it worked.
Guest:And at the end of the week, the guy brings me in the office to pay me.
Guest:He says, the guy on the phone wants to talk to you.
Guest:I get on the phone and the guy, I'm Ernie Butler from Montreal.
Guest:I got a comedy club.
Guest:I heard you did great there.
Guest:You want to come here next week?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Right to Montreal.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I ended that week.
Guest:Get on the phone.
Guest:Guy goes, I got somebody to talk to you.
Guest:Mark Breslin from Yuck Yucks goes, I heard, come on down.
Guest:I went out as a MC, came back, rode headliner.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's how I saw myself from then on.
Guest:So that was it.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:Canada did it.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:And then they started opening Clubs of America.
Guest:I go, I'm a headliner, man.
Marc:And that's how it fucking happened.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Thanks to the Canadians.
Marc:Thanks to the Canadians.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:So now we're, what, 81?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:80, 81, whatever.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So that's when all the clubs started popping like crazy.
Marc:Unbelievable.
Marc:And they needed guys.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I imagine at the beginning of it, there weren't a shit ton of guys.
Guest:That was the key who could hold a crowd for 45.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because all these clubs in New York and LA just required you to do 15, 20.
Guest:And there were a lot of guys that held up just that 15, 20.
Marc:That's all they had.
Marc:And no one, but I think what I don't think I've ever talked about really is that transition was that there were no fucking headlining gigs.
Marc:Even headliners in Vegas were doing 30 minutes.
Marc:So there was no, this whole idea of the 45 to an hour headlining set was actually sort of invented when the comedy clubs happened.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:You're absolutely right.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:Absolutely right.
Guest:And they would, and if you could do that, I may bring you back like, can you come back in a couple of months?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Come back again.
Guest:Cause there's no, there guys were coming out and dying from the city.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Guys would come out, they'd have 10 minutes of the rack with subway material.
Guest:Pittsburgh, they don't care.
Marc:Well, I guess comedy specials were an hour, but that was really it.
Marc:And those were big guys.
Marc:But those were like Klein and Carlin.
Marc:Nobody had HBO then.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I mean, nobody saw it.
Marc:No, but I'm just trying to figure out where the time got established because that's an interesting idea is that the comedy club boom required an hour and a half so they could sell their fucking drinks and drop their goddamn checks and maybe do two shows, right?
Guest:But yeah, but again, unless there were two shows a weekend, they'd like you to sell as much booze as you could, so they'd let you go long.
Guest:You had two-hour, three-hour shows easily.
Guest:You go as long as you want.
Guest:They were selling drinks.
Guest:They didn't care.
Guest:This was before Mothers Against Drunk Driving changed the whole drunk driving culture.
Guest:They didn't care, man.
Guest:The guys who were the biggest acts out there are the ones who sold the most booze.
Guest:Ollie Joe Prater, John Fox.
Guest:They sold booze.
Guest:The club owners loved them because the places were packed.
Guest:They didn't need anybody to put butts in the seat.
Marc:Those are the two.
Marc:It's so funny.
Marc:The two most notorious road motherfuckers.
Marc:Both of them dead.
Marc:Both of them fucking horrendous in a way.
Marc:Ollie Joe would do everybody's act.
Marc:But John Fox was sort of a sweetheart in his own fucked up way.
Marc:You had to like John Fox.
Marc:Ollie Joe was... I saw him towards the end when he was just limping up the hill next to the comedy store because he was staying in a shack that Mitzi owned and he was constantly battling gout.
Guest:But I saw him... I mean, he would come in... This is in Pittsburgh.
Guest:They had two clubs.
Guest:First of all, these clubs became...
Guest:you know, packed right off the bat, they'd start opening these little satellite clubs in the suburbs.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
Guest:So there was this club in Pittsburgh, Comedy Club, had one in the suburbs in Monroeville or something.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So I was working out there and Ollie Joe was downtown.
Guest:I never met the guy before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I'd heard about him, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because the guys told me, hey, when Ollie Joe comes to town, we got to have not an eight ball, a quarter ounce and a dozen quaaludes when he gets here first night.
Guest:That's what he has to have to start the week.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I'm like interested to see this guy because I'd heard about him.
Marc:How could you not be?
Guest:And he had this poster and it was like, well, renegade white man or something.
Guest:It was like his cowboy act.
Guest:There was no cowboy acts.
Guest:You know, I didn't, you know, I'm like curious about this guy.
Guest:So Saturday night, they got three shows downtown.
Guest:I got two out there.
Guest:So I come in because I'm going to party with the club owner.
Guest:Oh, you're going to the late one?
Guest:Yeah, I'm going to watch the third show.
Guest:That's one for disaster.
Guest:Oh, man, you got it.
Guest:It's coming.
Guest:So Ollie Joe's up there, man.
Guest:I see him swaying, holding the mic with both hands.
Guest:He's holding it, man.
Guest:It's a life raft, you know.
Guest:He's holding it, he's swaying, and he's drinking, man.
Guest:He's drinking shots.
Guest:Come on, come on.
Guest:And he starts bleeding out of his nose.
Marc:Is this that story?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he starts wiping his... He's got a white shirt on with a vest.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And he's wiping his nose with his sleeve.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm sitting in the back of the room and I can see it from the back of the room.
Guest:It wasn't a big club, but I can see it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the ringsiders, they're like going... They start... There's a groan.
Guest:Freaking out.
Guest:A wave of groan starts moving back.
Guest:Like... Yeah.
Guest:And finally, Ollie Joe looks down and sees it.
Guest:He sees the blood.
Guest:He looks at me and goes, what?
Guest:You fuckers don't party?
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Another shot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he took another shot, and the Quaaludes and Boos overpowered the Coke, and he went back.
Guest:But he had the mic still in his hand, the mic in a mic stand, and he goes back holding on to it, just falls back, boom.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So all you see is the bottom of these cowboy boots, and you can hear him going .
Guest:He's still talking in the mic, but it's like, you know, you can't understand what he's saying.
Guest:That's the story.
Guest:That's the story.
Guest:And so the club owners, Bruno Schripper and these other guys go, come on, help us get him off, and you got to do the rest of the show.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:We grew up there.
Guest:This guy's passed out.
Guest:I tried to pull the mic out of his hand.
Guest:They carry him off.
Guest:How long had he been on?
Guest:Five, 10 minutes.
Guest:Oh, shit.
Guest:No, there was nothing.
Guest:It was the beginning of the show.
Guest:And I started, I go, okay, folks, here we go.
Guest:Like nothing happened.
Guest:Like man down, man up.
Guest:Did you get it?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You got him?
Marc:For sure.
Marc:See, like that story I thought was the John Fox story.
Marc:I've heard that story, different versions of it.
Marc:I've told the story and I thought it was John Fox.
Marc:You witnessed the story.
Marc:I witnessed it.
Marc:I was there.
Marc:Bruno.
Marc:We have confirmation that it's an Ollie Joe Prater story and he went down.
Marc:Went down.
Marc:The only tag I knew was like, doesn't anyone party anymore?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I thought it was John.
Marc:No.
Marc:But John could have done the same thing.
Guest:They had to put Ollie Joe in the car.
Guest:Bruno was driving back to like this Viking motel, put him in his room and go, when they get to the hotel, Ollie Joe wakes up like, well, oh, what?
Guest:Hotel, shit, I'm going out partying because he ain't partying on me.
Guest:And they kicked him out of his car, had to pull him out of his car and leave him in the parking lot and drive off.
Guest:What a mess.
Guest:It was a mess.
Marc:Well, that's the other thing outside of what we just discovered, and I don't know if it's in the book or not, the idea of what the time slots were.
Marc:But this notion that there were a lot of dudes working in the 80s that were either on the run, complete borderline criminals, people that did not fit into the social fabric, who wanted to have a life where they could get fucked up, sleep all goddamn day, and just go do their little fucking act so they could keep living the life they want to live.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I think that's been around in comedy for a long time.
Marc:But I just remember there because I knew Bastille, you know, kind of well towards the end.
Marc:And he was a great example of it.
Marc:Like he didn't want his name on the marquee because he didn't want his ex-wife or the IRS knowing where the fuck he was and knowing that he was making any money.
Guest:You ever see this movie called Mickey One?
Guest:No.
Guest:Oh, you got to check it out.
Guest:It's like 64, 65.
Guest:I forget who directed like Schlesinger, one of those guys.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Warren Beatty stars as a comic who goes on the run from the mob.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he ends up like he's on the run in New York.
Guest:He ends up in Chicago.
Guest:And he just takes a job at a club.
Guest:Like, again, in the nightclub, can't help himself, like Busboy or something, can't help himself, has to get on stage eventually.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Gets on stage, they find out, oh, the comic's on, they hear about a young comic on stage, you know, they find him, but he was on the run.
Guest:It's the exact same thing that you're talking about.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:You know, there were a lot of guys just like Bastille, you're right, there were guys like, I don't want anybody to do that.
Marc:Yeah, they were just getting by.
Marc:It was like, what do they call them, itinerant preachers?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:They're just kind of town to town shit, do some damage, get out.
Marc:Get out.
Marc:But at the time, so now you're drinking pretty hard now, right?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, I was.
Marc:So that's the beginning of the club thing.
Marc:See, this is how I know you.
Marc:I've seen you act, I saw you act maybe once.
Marc:When I was starting out, I think it was at Stitches in Boston.
Marc:Is that possible?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So I remember seeing you, but when you came in, you must have been fucking sober already, but you were already sort of mythic in that you were like this fucking old monster that fucking hit the wall and was like you were one of the guys because there was only a handful of guys...
Marc:that you know that were were those club comics it was like in the sense of like that we heard of like slayton jenny yeah you know you yeah um i mean i mean i know seinfeld around dennis miller was around but there were guys that really worked that were shimmel like there were dudes that were the road guys that fucking you know that stayed there yeah like you guys stayed there you held that thing through the whole fucking thing
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I thought it was early 80s.
Guest:I was out all the time.
Guest:I never took a night off.
Guest:Never.
Guest:I remember reading an article once Richard Pryor was talking about being, you know, took a vacation to Hawaii.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was there for two days.
Guest:He goes, I can't take it.
Guest:I get back to a crowd.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I couldn't take one night off.
Guest:And you were dating Carol.
Marc:You were married to Carol.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You got married.
Marc:Got married.
Marc:Something to do.
Marc:And that's right.
Marc:And you guys used to tour together sometimes.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:What?
Guest:You know, it was interesting.
Guest:I mean, we'd go in.
Guest:I remember the first time we'd go to Atlanta.
Guest:She goes, what kind of Atlanta?
Guest:She goes, oh, my God.
Guest:She goes, it's the South.
Guest:She goes, you've got to cover the whole show.
Guest:I can only be up there for like five minutes.
Guest:And she's such a Jewish girl.
Guest:That's what she says.
Guest:She goes, there's no Jews down here.
Guest:There's going to be no Jews down here.
Guest:No Jews.
Guest:So we'd pull into the parking lot for a hotel.
Guest:There's a kosher deli right next to the hotel.
Guest:I go, look.
Guest:So she gets on stage.
Guest:And of course, when these comedy clubs opened, there were a lot of Jewish, whatever city you're in, most of the comedy fans, these were hardcore people who were, they were like comedy fans.
Guest:So there were audiences that were packed, a lot of Jewish people.
Guest:So Atlanta, all of a sudden, the crowd was mostly Jewish.
Guest:There's an all-Jews community down there.
Guest:And as soon as she hit her first reference, they got a big laugh.
Guest:I went, uh-oh, I saw it.
Guest:She said, my middle act is now doing 45.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did that happen a lot?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Did you guys fight?
Guest:Yeah, we fought.
Guest:Yeah, we fought.
Guest:You know, I remember Foxworthy has a story.
Guest:He reminded me.
Guest:He said, I was in a back room pacing.
Guest:Carol's on.
Guest:And, of course, she's just... And he said, I'm back there going, close with it.
Guest:Close with it.
Guest:You know, she's going, just close with it.
Guest:Here's another big laugh.
Guest:Close with it.
Guest:She just keeps going.
Guest:And Foxworthy comes, hey, man.
Guest:You know, he doesn't even know me.
Guest:He's going, like, settle down, man.
Guest:You know, she's going to be good.
Guest:That's my wife.
Guest:I'll tell you what I'm...
Marc:that's my wife i'll see what i want to say foxworthy before the redneck stuff was a really good act i'm not saying that the redneck thing was bad but i i did one of my first weeks middle and maybe hosting for him in albuquerque at laughs yeah and he like he had he had that great bit about like i think it was his dad on the boat that was being on the trailer being pulled by the truck like i mean he had good shit he was a nice guy
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think he still is a nice guy.
Marc:He is a nice guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He is a nice guy.
Guest:I mean, you know, he invented a joke for him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That a million different ways has been done.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he put the punchline in front of the setup.
Guest:That's how good that joke was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He didn't even need the setup, really.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then, like, it was such... I think Vic Henley used to write for him a bit.
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:I wrote a couple of those.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Like, those guys are like, you just fill them up.
Marc:Fill them up, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:So, you go do this.
Marc:So, what...
Marc:When do you meet Sam?
Marc:Where do you end up in LA?
Marc:How does that happen?
Marc:So you're on the road.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're in New York still with Carol.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And then you both decide, did you have a kid yet?
Guest:She got a pilot.
Guest:No, kid.
Guest:Did we have a kid yet?
Guest:Did you say, did we have a kid?
Guest:Don't you have a kid?
Guest:Not with Carol.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:No.
Marc:Another one.
Guest:We took advantage of the laws that were available at the time.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:No, she got a pilot.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Barry Levinson's show called Toast to Manhattan, I think it was.
Guest:Gilbert Gottfried was on it.
Guest:Riser was on it.
Guest:So she got a pilot.
Marc:So you knew all those guys because they were comic strip acts.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Or improv or catch.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So back then, you had to graduate and go to L.A.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:Everybody had to move to L.A.
Guest:Are you working all the clubs in New York at that time?
Guest:I was working all of them, all the time.
Guest:All right, so she gets a pilot.
Guest:And she says, we got to move to LA.
Guest:And I was like, oh, well, they got booze and drugs out there.
Guest:Let's go.
Guest:Is she drinking with you?
Guest:Yeah, she would.
Guest:But she, you know, you can hide, you know, and I put a big shadow on.
Guest:So it's easy to hide in my, you know, you can drink and do drugs and not feel like you're an alcoholic when you're with me.
Guest:sure yeah right yeah but you're also on the road a lot i'm on the road a lot yeah yeah yeah that's a planet road planet road that's a whole nother world you know you start off and go i'm i'm married now i'm not gonna cheat yeah then it starts breaking down okay i'm not gonna sleep with anybody that she might actually ever meet right you know and then it's like i'm not gonna sleep with anybody that it looks too dangerous yeah
Guest:Then I'm not going to sleep with anybody in New York.
Guest:Then I'm not going to sleep with anybody who she's friends with.
Guest:Then I'm not going to sleep with her.
Guest:That just kind of narrows it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So we moved out to LA, 82.
Guest:Now are you getting bitter yet?
Guest:Not at all.
Guest:It was all fun.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:You know, you go out the road, you feel like a star.
Guest:You feel like a rock star.
Guest:People treat you great.
Guest:You go into town, all the hippest, coolest people in the town were out there to see it.
Guest:You sell a ticket?
Guest:Well, they're sold out, so you have the illusion in your mind you're selling out.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:You know, you go, ah, they're packed for me.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:You know, you walk in.
Guest:Because the clubs were just popular.
Guest:They were just packed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, the promo was an 8x10 on the front door and you doing some stupid radio show once a week.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's packed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I'm so good on radio.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah, you got a handle on that.
Marc:I'm good on radio.
Marc:You're not good on radio?
Marc:I'm good on radio, but I'm saying it didn't matter.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:It didn't matter.
Guest:Sometimes it does.
Marc:That's one of the only things that can pull them sometimes.
Guest:I loved it, but they were just packed.
Guest:It was just a hot thing.
Guest:It became the hot thing.
Guest:So you're making money?
Guest:Making money every time you're getting big raises.
Guest:Door deals?
Guest:Didn't need door deals.
Guest:They just were paying more and more.
Marc:They were keeping us happy, keeping you happy, giving you free drugs, paying you more every time.
Marc:But once you plant your ass in L.A.,
Marc:Who are you running with?
Marc:I met Sam right away over at the Comedy Store.
Marc:So this is what year?
Marc:82.
Marc:Oh, so it's Sam, like raw Sam.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Before Big Sam.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:So he's just this little fucking unique monster.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:And it was fun.
Guest:We had a lot of fun.
Guest:So who was around?
Guest:It was Sam.
Guest:Sam.
Guest:Of course, he had Carla Bowen.
Guest:Those guys were still there then.
Guest:Riley Barber.
Guest:I don't remember Riley hanging around the comedy store then.
Marc:I'm not sure if he was out there.
Marc:Hicks for a second.
Guest:Hicks had gone back to Texas by then.
Marc:He lasted like a year, right?
Guest:Yeah, a year.
Guest:Because I met him down in Austin around that time, around 82.
Guest:He was like a kid.
Guest:He was a middle act then.
Guest:Yeah, he was.
Guest:He was young.
Marc:Yeah, they brought him out, and I think it got up weird.
Marc:yeah yeah shit gets weird with sam yeah yeah you're gonna hang around sam for a while he's only you only got one arc with him you hang with him for a while and you you feel it coming up and it's everything's going good and then you know you're spit out somehow yeah
Marc:Like, how long did you run with that guy?
Guest:We ran until I got sober.
Guest:Then even after that, I'd come and hang out once in a while.
Guest:But, you know, in small doses.
Guest:On a Sunday night show, we'd come and he'd call me his double agent from God.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And, you know, he knew I was sober.
Guest:When he tried to get sober himself, I was one of the people he was talking to.
Guest:Oh, before the end, you mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, he was trying.
Guest:He felt like he painted himself into a, you know, like all of us do.
Guest:Like, oh, my God, how am I going to do any new material once I get sober?
Marc:What do you mean he was barely doing new material?
Marc:No, he wasn't.
Guest:He wasn't, but he didn't realize it.
Guest:You don't realize it.
Guest:He knew he'd paint himself in a corner with a necrophiliac bit.
Marc:That's what he felt like.
Marc:That was it.
Marc:That's what he felt like.
Marc:How are you going to top that?
Marc:I saw that thing happen.
Marc:I was a doorman when he fucking made that thing.
Marc:I was a doorman at the store when he first started doing the homosexual necrophiliac thing, and it was like, what is happening?
Marc:This is like the splitting of the atom.
Yeah.
Marc:And no one remembers, but just to see him laying there and just see him rocking, oh, what's this?
Guest:Oh, it never ends.
Marc:Yeah, I mean that.
Guest:Yeah, and that, when you see him, you can only judge people.
Guest:That's what always gets me when young people go, like, Lenny Bruce, I listen to him, he's not funny.
Guest:Judge him by what else was going on in comedy at that time.
Guest:Put him in context.
Guest:And Sam, at that time, you said you had a perfect, splitting the atom, it was like, what?
Guest:He went to a place, and other comics were like, here's my observation about Cocoa Puffs.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He's relatively forgotten in terms of big comedy acts.
Marc:I think once he started doing rock and roll, he became a little bit of a caricature.
Marc:But that first record, that Manson bit, that's worth the fucking...
Marc:That Manson bit, glad to see you fuckers can handle your high.
Marc:To erase the entire event just by minimizing them to a bunch of dumb fucking idiots who didn't know how to do drugs properly, to me was fucking genius.
Guest:He was sort of like Howard Beale.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm mad as hell.
Guest:I'm not going to take it anymore.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He was that aggrieved guy.
Guest:He was a short, dumpy little balding guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you go, okay, you can see he's the wounded warrior.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, we get it.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:He get it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then he became the bully.
Guest:Then he became the star.
Guest:He was always kind of a bully.
Guest:Yeah, I'm just saying.
Guest:Once he got that power and swagger, then he became, you know, then it was like, I'm kicking women back.
Guest:I'm kicking them back.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You're beating them, you know.
Guest:Yeah, but he was always.
Guest:You're no longer aggrieved.
Guest:You're aggrieved.
Marc:That's right, because I think in his brain, he naturally had this sort of like he was going to keep pushing no matter what until he died because he thought he had a ticket in.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It depends what you believe.
Marc:Maybe you'll see him up there.
Guest:I doubt it.
Guest:No, that's the difference.
Guest:He was a believer.
Guest:Hicks wasn't a believer.
Guest:But underneath it all, we used to do coke and go through the Bible, Sam and I.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I was reading Pentecostal.
Guest:That sounds fun.
Guest:Oh, it was hilarious.
Guest:It was hilarious.
Guest:We made it funny, but, you know, it was.
Guest:Well, he knew that shit.
Guest:He knew it, man.
Guest:He knew it better than anybody.
Marc:Well, I think I always say that, that, you know, he thought that as long as he had a second at the end, he could get in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's what they tell you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:He was banking on that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I hope he had that second.
Marc:I think it sounds like he did.
Marc:Sounds like he had a second.
Marc:I think he did.
Marc:I think he was still breathing when they pulled him out of that fucking car.
Marc:You don't get a corner a lot, but you get something up there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If you want to go right through the whole heaven on earth stuff, for sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:No, they were very different comics because Hicks was different in the sense that much more intellectual, but had definitely the same momentum, but was seriously challenging on a lot of different levels.
Marc:He was a real thinker.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Sam was like, you know, when you break Steve Pearl in his infinite fucking weird, you know, wisdom is the broken wizard.
Marc:Right.
Marc:He he said, yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Sam's a genius.
Marc:Two short screams followed by a long scream.
Marc:Oh, oh, oh!
Marc:Yeah, he's a genius.
Marc:And I was like, wow, I never broke it down like that.
Marc:It was sort of a gimmick in a way.
Marc:Of course it was.
Marc:But he did push it, man.
Marc:And I didn't like him initially, and then when I got to know him, I got sort of sucked in.
Marc:But I'd never seen... I saw different sides of him.
Guest:We once did a gig at UCLA, a local...
Guest:You know, a couple hundred bucks in town.
Guest:We're driving over to some young guys, hired us both out of the store.
Guest:And we're driving over and Sam's going, you got to close the show.
Guest:Now, Sam was starting to get hot.
Guest:He was starting to get the swagger.
Guest:And I said, Sam, I'm not closing the show.
Guest:He said, no, no, no, I'll bomb.
Guest:These kids are going to hate me.
Guest:I'm going to bomb and you'll have no problem following me.
Guest:And I said...
Guest:He said, look, I tell you what, if it doesn't work out, I'll give you my money and I'll still buy the drugs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If you can't follow me, trust me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not going to throw a tank it, but I'm just telling you.
Guest:And he was right.
Guest:He got up there and he did the act he did.
Guest:They didn't get it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:And then Sam, because the kid had botched up his intro, he kind of bombed out.
Guest:Sam then went and introduced me and gave me this, look, you don't like me.
Guest:You're going to like this.
Guest:And he gave me a great intro.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And a great set.
Guest:And then...
Guest:A couple of months later, Sam broke.
Guest:This was like, you know, this happened like a few months before he broke big.
Marc:Yeah, like 87.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, he broke big like 85, summer of 85.
Marc:He had the Rodney thing.
Marc:Oh, right.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I met him when they, I was there when his HBO special.
Guest:No, this was before that.
Guest:The Rodney thing broke him like overnight.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was the first guy I ever saw that just shot out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But this was like the spring of 85.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He comes up to me to the store after he breaks.
Guest:He said, hey, Rich, I'm going back to UCLA, $15,000.
Guest:And I go back.
Guest:I just watched.
Guest:I went back and didn't perform.
Guest:I go back and I watched him decide.
Guest:I bet money there were kids in that audience who saw him six months before.
Guest:And they're standing ovation when he walked out.
Guest:It just changed.
Guest:The whole timing had changed.
Guest:The whole thing had changed.
Guest:You've got to hit the zeitgeist of America.
Guest:America got angry the second half of the Reagan administration.
Guest:The second Reagan term, they got angry.
Guest:Like, they realized it trickled out.
Marc:Well, it's interesting, too, that he knew that there was no second gear.
Marc:That, like, he knew himself enough to know that those kids had not had the experience he had or were gonna register the anger that he... And he knew that about himself, but he also knew, like, there's nothing I can do.
Marc:No, no, no, he couldn't.
Marc:You know, you can't.
Marc:You can't change who you are.
Marc:Well, certain types of comics can gauge...
Guest:Okay, you can make some adjustments and all that, but you are who you are at a certain point.
Marc:If you're lucky.
Marc:I mean, some guys, they're just there to pander no matter what.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Grocers.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Grocers.
Guest:What are they selling?
Guest:I'm selling.
Marc:What are they buying?
Marc:But it's also like there's an ethic to it that once you find your voice, you execute it.
Marc:But ultimately, if it's working, you're trying to get as many people to like you as possible or laugh.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So like, but Sam was, was not that guy.
Marc:See, like most of us, you know, you want, you want to connect, you know, and I, and you know, whether you decide that your tone is angry or what you want to connect with that and you don't understand why you're not.
Marc:And then as you get older, you realize, well, I wasn't, that wasn't really my point of view.
Marc:I was just uncomfortable and scared and angry or whatever.
Marc:But Sam knew like, this is what I do.
Marc:Usually it doesn't work.
Marc:It didn't work for years.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, but I committed to it.
Marc:And eventually it came around, you know.
Marc:But most guys are like, I just want to perform.
Marc:I want to do comedy.
Marc:I want to get some laughs.
Marc:Sam, I got to assume for a few years when he was closed in the Westwood store, didn't give a fuck.
Guest:No.
Guest:No, I don't think so.
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:But he was starting to get that late night thing that was happening over at the comedy store.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I remember going out the road once, and I came back, and I went back, because we'd always go over and watch Sam.
Guest:Monday nights.
Guest:Every night.
Guest:Every night, he'd go on last.
Guest:They'd put him on last.
Guest:He wanted to.
Guest:It didn't matter.
Guest:Before people there, he'd do that opening of his.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then I remember coming back one time off the road.
Guest:What was the opening?
Guest:Let me see the face.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:You're going to wish the hell you'd never seen his face before.
Guest:And I came back and the place was packed.
Guest:And it was like all these hipsters off of Sunset.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:The rock guys.
Guest:Everything.
Guest:And it just changed.
Guest:So where were you at at that time?
Guest:Working the road.
Guest:I was running around.
Guest:And you weren't sober yet?
Guest:No, I didn't get sober until May of 85.
Guest:What the fuck happened?
Guest:So what happened with you?
Guest:I crashed, man.
Guest:I couldn't... I was just out in the road and I couldn't... You know what happened?
Guest:One of the things that got me was... You were doing everything?
Guest:Everything.
Guest:A lot of Coke, a lot of Jack Daniels, a lot of beer, a lot of anything I get my hands on.
Guest:Anything.
Guest:And...
Guest:I got this gig, Rob.
Guest:I did the rodeo for the Texas prison rodeo.
Guest:They hired me and a young guy named Sinbad Atkins as my opener.
Guest:And then I had to drive it, do a couple of one-nighters in Texas, end up at the comedy workshop in Austin.
Guest:Sinbad, again, is the middle.
Guest:And I never bothered about who was open for me.
Guest:I'd follow anything.
Guest:I had that, you know, I'll kill it.
Guest:It doesn't matter what goes on.
Guest:Sinbad made me run.
Guest:He had that young enthusiasm, and I was getting bitter and fat and angry, and it wasn't looking good.
Guest:And he was running me off the stage.
Guest:Well, yeah, because he's a riff guy.
Guest:He would just go up there with that big smile and happy, and he had a big feather boa hanging down, and he had like an orange mohawk.
Guest:And there was big MC Hammer jumpsuit pants, you know, that kind of stuff.
Guest:And he was just bouncing around and happy.
Guest:And they were like happy to have him here.
Guest:It didn't matter.
Guest:He's like, my friend Bob Nickman calls him a charismatician.
Guest:Material was irrelevant.
Guest:Nickman, I know.
Guest:He wrote on my show last year.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So like, and you were in now.
Guest:And I'm sitting there back there drinking before I go on and looking at him.
Marc:Now let's see.
Marc:Let's watch the monster.
Marc:Sweaty.
Marc:Let's bring up sweaty Rich Geidner.
Yeah.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's it.
Guest:It's hot here.
Guest:Somebody throw it on the fan.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're like, bring back the nice guy.
Guest:Bring back the fun guy.
Guest:Fuck you.
Guest:Fuck you.
Guest:You know, Jesus Christ is bullshit.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:The truth guy.
Marc:Yeah, the truth guy.
Marc:That's the one thing that Hicks and Kennison fucked up for everybody.
Marc:It's like, oh, it's too many truth guys now.
Marc:And they're all telling the same truth.
Marc:And I'm not sure it's true, but they're angry about it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The truth guy.
Marc:It's that guy.
Marc:There's a tone that comes with the truth guy.
Guest:I totally get it, man.
Guest:I totally get it.
Guest:So what do you do?
Guest:You check in?
Guest:No, man, I was like, I mean, that just was the first, like, one of those seeds that was planted.
Guest:Like, I'm gone.
Guest:I remember going out, even after, you know, after every night of the show, I'd be drinking and doing warm blowing.
Guest:I was sitting in a bar one night and Simba was down the other end of the table and everybody was down his end of the table, man.
Guest:And he was telling stories and laughing.
Guest:He's drinking Coca-Cola and I'm down there going, I can't stay out of the bathroom.
Guest:I'm just chain smoking.
Guest:And I went, it's not that he's young.
Guest:It's not that he's a black guy.
Guest:He's not drinking.
Guest:It's just, I looked at him and went, he's just kind of, Brett Butler had put another seed in my head a few months before.
Marc:Because she was sober.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she said, you know, you ever think about your drink?
Guest:Because I'd be coming in the condo every morning, like 9 in the morning or whatever.
Guest:And I came back and I was sitting at the improv bar.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was drinking every night there.
Guest:And I was just, I got to quit drinking.
Guest:And Eddie, the bartender, he sent Mark Schiff there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Go get me.
Guest:So do something with this guy.
Guest:You're not drinking anymore.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do with him what you do with you.
Marc:So he 12-stepped you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's a good guy.
Guest:Yeah, great guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So now this is what, this is 85?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So here you are, one of the biggest working comics in the country, and I have to assume you got nothing but comedy.
Marc:See that?
Marc:Nothing.
Guest:I had nothing.
Marc:That's the way, another way the business changes.
Marc:Like on some level, you're watching dudes and women get shows, get shots, get deals, and you gotta, because you're not getting them, you gotta be the, fuck that.
Marc:I'm a comic.
Guest:Well, I'd done a couple of tonight shows.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But I'd burned out on one I did material I wasn't supposed to do.
Guest:And Jim McCauley, town coordinator, says, you're not going to get back on, man.
Guest:I mean, I had to run out of the studio.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Because I did material I wasn't supposed to do.
Guest:You know, you have to set material.
Guest:So you fucked that up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Say it like it is.
Guest:You got cocky.
Guest:Yeah, I got cocky.
Guest:I was hanging out with Sam too much.
Marc:I was like, I don't want to do this.
Guest:I got to do some edgy stuff.
Guest:I got to do some edgy.
Guest:That's how he killed everybody.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's how he killed everybody.
Guest:He threw a rock off the cliff and I chased it.
Marc:Well, yeah, but he'd also say, like, you got to do it.
Marc:You know, I'm going to save you some time, mister.
Guest:I hate you sometimes.
Guest:Yeah, what, for life?
Guest:I'll get you back to Jersey Zone Insurance and get this thing over with.
Guest:That was the subtext.
Guest:No, the Buddha has spoken.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I'm going to go to the mountaintop faster.
Guest:It's a shortcut.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, I'm going to run inside of the business one guy at a time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So that happened.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So you kind of fucked up a little.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Rehab wasn't like on everybody's.
Guest:I just went to detox on my couch.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You went to meetings.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're hanging out with Schiff and he's taking the meetings.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so what do you do?
Guest:I start going up again, but I mean, I had trouble.
Guest:I mean, Bud kept putting me up.
Guest:I would throw the mic down.
Guest:I'd storm off.
Guest:Sober.
Guest:You couldn't handle it.
Guest:Yeah, sober.
Guest:I couldn't.
Guest:I was angry, and I couldn't figure out how to get a laugh.
Guest:I was really having a hard time.
Guest:None of the old stuff felt like right, and I didn't have anything new.
Guest:I couldn't write a joke.
Guest:I thought I was done.
Guest:And Bud would be like... I remember I'd walk off early, and I'd be walking up.
Guest:Bud goes, see you tomorrow night at 10.
Guest:I mean, he'd have me penciling in for another good shot, and I'd be like...
Guest:and uh uh i just had a joke come to me like out of nowhere i was i was running i started running again a friend said why don't you try running you know and and i was smoking a lot and then i would just smoke and run i'd you know run a few yards and stop and have a cigarette and run and a joke you know one of those jokes it just lands just lands that's how i do it you know and then and i took that up and i got a laugh and it kind of broke me clear and i was like landing jokes is the only way
Marc:It's the best.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:He just drops in.
Marc:You can't sit there with a pad.
Marc:You're just going to wait for it.
Marc:Don't know.
Marc:Sometimes you get funny parts and they work, but you're still waiting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like one day, one day the ending will land.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Of this joke.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not one of those guys who go, let me write.
Guest:I'm going to sit down and write 10 mailbox jokes.
Guest:I can't do that.
Marc:I can't either.
Guest:They have to come.
Guest:Like you said, they have to just land parts, parts.
Marc:Well, I believe it's like if you are the kind of guy where you're on stage and you've got a good enough premise to get a laugh and
Marc:but you don't know where it's going to go.
Marc:That's just who you are.
Marc:And that's how you create.
Marc:You corner yourself.
Marc:You're up there and you got to be funny.
Marc:And you don't know where that's going to come from or what it's going to look like.
Marc:And then once most of it's delivered, you can finesse it.
Guest:Yeah, the ego will push something out.
Guest:If you work on the daytime, at least you'll have a good idea of what you're going to do when you get up there.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And then, yeah, the ego will, right, out of self-protection will be funny.
Marc:And then, like, once you get all the pieces going, then you can do your work.
Marc:Then you kind of repetition, put things.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Good.
Marc:So you figured it back out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got back out and started doing it again, and it got better.
Guest:It was better.
Guest:I was better.
Guest:And then the boom busted?
Yeah.
Guest:yeah left me up on the shore yeah yeah but it was i got got a good run with it though i had like i got like five development deals i was ready the perfect time when i got sober it was a perfect time for all of a sudden sort of the tv development deals are being oh that's right like crazy like a two hundred thousand dollar deal all right so i got in on that i got deals i'm still working the road then i have these deals and i come back into a pilot and that wouldn't go and then i go back out the road again they go you got another deal
Guest:And there were like four networks.
Guest:What was mainly the... The premise for my sitcom?
Guest:For you guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was like, he's a married guy.
Guest:Cranky married guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was double developed behind Tim Allen and other people.
Guest:That's what my premise was.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, he's a white married guy with young kids or whatever, some variation of that.
Marc:And nothing took.
Guest:Nothing took.
Guest:But you shot pilots.
Guest:I shot pilots.
Guest:So you made some money.
Guest:I made a lot of money.
Guest:It was good.
Guest:It was good.
Guest:And I was still doing stand-up on the road all the time.
Guest:Saving your money?
Guest:No.
Guest:just because i just because i wasn't using for drugs and alcohol didn't mean i know how to blow it yeah yeah so but you and carol i bought a house no look i did buy a house i bought things i mean you know when did carol and you end uh not long after i got sober uh-huh and then but you remarried yeah yeah like 89 uh-huh and you had a kid got three really three yeah and that marriage is no more no more sorry buddy
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I thought I'm done.
Guest:I think I'm done.
Marc:Yeah, are you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because once you get the three, man, then it's like, you know, it doesn't matter.
Guest:Three to eight doesn't matter.
Guest:And you got three kids, so you're never done.
Guest:No, no, no, no, not at all.
Guest:They're not off the payroll.
Guest:None of them are off the payroll.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:Look what you did.
Yeah.
Marc:Good kids, though?
Guest:Yeah, good kids.
Guest:All right, good.
Guest:They are good.
Guest:I run with my oldest daughter every day, and we have fun.
Marc:Oh, great.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:That's fucking sweet, man.
Marc:It's a good story.
Marc:But, okay.
Marc:but ultimately after the arc you know because like i remember like i'll tell you it was it was hard for me to to to watch you in montreal that time when was it montreal portland was it portland wow i was thinking about that and like you know because i knew who was it jordan was doing a movie that's right what was that movie called i am comic right the documentary and you were the threat
Guest:I became the thread.
Guest:He was like, go back on stage.
Guest:He needed a storyline.
Guest:We were just interviewing comics, and he saw me looking with lust on comics on stage.
Guest:He said, won't you go back and try it again?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he pointed the camera at a narcissist.
Guest:What else am I going to do?
Guest:What could I do?
Marc:No, I know, but I respected it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But there was a moment there where I saw you backstage at one of those dumb little fucking venues.
Marc:And it wasn't an easy venue.
Marc:It wasn't a comedy venue.
Marc:I think there was a leak.
Marc:It was a garden.
Marc:It was a garden.
Marc:There was a leak.
Marc:You were in a garden.
Marc:Right.
Marc:and you know and i and i like what what what what i found um hard was that like you know this was like really for you you know and where you are in your life it's a nothing gig but but it meant everything in that moment and you were fucking scared oh it was yeah and it was hard back and i didn't know i didn't know you know i wanted to say something but there was nothing i could say oh man
Guest:There were so many parts in place.
Guest:First of all, I didn't know how big you were.
Guest:Those people were all there to see you.
Guest:Were they?
Guest:Oh, my God, Mark.
Guest:I felt it.
Guest:I bombed so bad.
Guest:I mean, it was not... But I wasn't headlining.
Guest:It was just... You were up last.
Guest:You were up last.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I didn't... I was so out of it.
Guest:So not relevant that I didn't know what was going on.
Guest:And then later that week, I saw you do the podcast live.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I got it.
Guest:But I didn't know.
Guest:I mean, I knew who you were.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I didn't realize... And plus, my... You know, it's like...
Guest:One of the times I realized that my style was so 80s.
Guest:It was so 80s.
Guest:And this was 2010, around that time.
Guest:And your style was the new style.
Guest:And so it wasn't I just looked older, I sounded older, I performed older.
Guest:It was like some guy in my era coming up and doing a Catskills act.
Guest:No, no, it really was.
Guest:It was like some guy doing an act from 30 years before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I didn't realize it at the time.
Guest:I look back on it and realize that was part of it.
Guest:But I was also just back news.
Marc:Right, I know.
Guest:I didn't have any confidence.
Marc:You're right.
Guest:I was completely.
Marc:I mean, like, it's weird because I respected you.
Marc:And I felt like I was immediately sort of codependency feeling.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:You all right then?
Guest:I remember doing it and really trying to crank it up to the old style.
Guest:Just perform it.
Guest:Just perform these bits.
Guest:And they weren't buying them.
Guest:I'm performing it.
Guest:There's nothing worse when you're really trying.
Guest:But it wasn't a fucking empty.
Guest:It wasn't a real bomb.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It wasn't a silence bomb.
Guest:But I couldn't get it cranked up.
Guest:And I could feel them.
Guest:And then you walked up.
Guest:And I remember saying this.
Guest:You pulled the stool up.
Guest:And you sat down and you talked to them.
Guest:And I go.
Guest:And you were so intimate.
Guest:And you.
Guest:just destroyed.
Guest:And it was like, it was so casual.
Guest:And I go, oh my God, man.
Guest:I was like, I was setting myself on fire and shoot myself out of a cannon.
Guest:And they're like looking at their watches, you know?
Guest:But that took me years to sit down.
Marc:No, no, no, no.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I didn't say you got that overnight.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But you, that's, but, but I realized I went, I said, oh, this is the new way.
Guest:This is, it's like when the evolution of comedy, it's just a constant evolution, right?
Guest:It's a constant change.
Marc:Well, I think like, but you know, in my mind,
Marc:I mean, I don't feel like the comedy is any different in the sense that, like, you know, I go up at the store, and I think that alt comedy was sort of a misdirection in how it was packaged.
Marc:Because really, the guys that ultimately make it are real comics.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, like, in my mind, and this is an ego talking, like,
Marc:I knew back in the day, dude sat down, you know, like Shelly Berman sat down.
Marc:Bill Cosby sat down.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And like, and I'm like, this is part of the history.
Marc:So it's a weird thing that I do agree that I make a room pretty intimate, but like sitting down for me was like some sort of, that was me being like old school.
Yeah.
Guest:I never thought, this woman sent me pictures from 35 years ago.
Guest:She found all these pictures.
Guest:I'm doing this book.
Guest:And so she did the cover of it.
Guest:We reached out to get her permission to use her picture in the cover.
Guest:And she goes, I found all these other pictures.
Guest:There's pictures of me sitting on a stool at Yuck Yuck's.
Guest:And I said, I forgot that I actually would do that, too.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But it just something I did.
Marc:Well, that's the comedy boom.
Marc:It's like I was a fucking you.
Marc:I was a pacer.
Marc:I never knew how to fucking I could never stand still at a mic stand.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I always took it out.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But like, you know, you felt like you had to do that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, there were guys that, you know, you'd fucking walk the stage and you fucking lean in and do all that shit.
Marc:And what I started doing, though, when I when I was tanking.
Marc:It used to be the only reason I'd sit down was when I was tanking because I didn't want them to think it bothered me.
Marc:So if I was sitting down.
Marc:You're kidding me.
Marc:No.
Marc:If I was sitting down, it was because I'm like, I'm not going to fucking freak out.
Marc:I'm eating it, and it looks like I'm going to have to.
Marc:So I'm going to sit down and just write this out.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Because I didn't want them to think I was freaking out.
Marc:And that's how you got to that.
Guest:Kind of, yeah.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:I didn't, I didn't see that.
Guest:No, no, of course not.
Marc:That's interesting.
Guest:No, I like that.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:How somebody gets to their style.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How do they develop it?
Guest:But it was so clear that night and it was really impressive to me.
Guest:And then of course I sold, like I said, the soul, the podcast being done.
Guest:I wasn't aware of the podcast phenomenon.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was completely, I've been out of it.
Guest:I mean, when I was out of it, I was really out of doing standup.
Guest:I wouldn't watch it.
Guest:I had this bitterness towards it almost.
Guest:How'd you get rid of that?
Guest:Coming back and doing it.
Guest:And I kept doing it and kept doing it.
Guest:And you know, um,
Guest:I just took all these little one-nighters around town and open mics and doing anything I could and found it again and started doing new material.
Guest:But I was just doing it the way I do.
Guest:I still perform the way I perform.
Guest:But saying new things and getting honest in my way.
Guest:And it was great.
Guest:And I'm back.
Guest:I feel like I perform.
Marc:Satisfying?
Guest:I love it.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:That's great.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:i love it it's a fucking great story yeah and and well i'm glad yeah i'm fucking i'm happy because i was actually mad at jordan i wasn't mad at you for put me up i was like why are you doing that to him like there's other ways to do this and he's a little like like that yeah like now let's see what happens oh no no man you're so true
Marc:And it was like, you know, if you wanted to do this, you should do it on his own pace.
Marc:What do you fucking, you know, because he wanted exactly what happened to happen.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:You know, in the movie, when he says, we're going to take you to first place.
Guest:He picked that place, Liquid Zoo, because he knew it was a shithole.
Guest:He knew it was a bad thing.
Guest:And so let's, your first time go back, go there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then, of course, then he goes one night, he goes, hey, let's go down and interview some guys at J. Anthony Brown's place down in South Central.
Guest:We get down there, there's nobody to interview all of a sudden.
Guest:Then he goes, why don't you go up and do some time?
Guest:Oh, motherfucker.
Guest:I knew I was going up to go over to Barwater.
Marc:And we should make him do his old fucking act.
Marc:Let's get his goddamn big feathered hair back in dumb shirts.
Marc:Let him do, where's that?
Marc:Where's the movie of making Jordan do his fucking old act?
Marc:And he has to dress like his old headshot.
Marc:That's the deal there.
Marc:But he made a couple good movies.
Marc:I'm not going to begrudge him that, but there was always something like, just back off a minute.
Guest:Relax.
Guest:It is as touching to me that you had that kind of empathy for me, which is really pretty amazing, really.
Marc:Because we didn't know each other that well.
Marc:Yeah, but look, all you guys, whether I knew you or not,
Marc:Like, I feel kinship.
Marc:You know, even last night I was at the store and, you know, I walk in the main room and Joey Gaynor's on stage.
Marc:You know, it was just like, I don't know that guy that well, but I saw him trying to churn out what he was churning out.
Marc:And there's just something about comics.
Marc:Like, this is my fucking life.
Marc:This is my community.
Marc:I don't dismiss anybody.
Marc:I'm more likely to dismiss someone my own age or younger than one of you guys.
Marc:That's interesting.
Marc:Because now I'm an old guy.
Marc:So I get to do that thing.
Marc:I got to fight with that.
Marc:You know, fuck this kid.
Marc:But you guys aren't going to take a hit.
Marc:You're alive.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So now the book, so was this cathartic?
Guest:Was this good?
Guest:Yeah, it was great.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:I got a chance to say everything I wanted to say about stand-up comedy, about my run through it in the 80s especially.
Guest:Is that going to be an online thing?
Guest:It's going to be, it'll be Kindle, but also be available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble.
Guest:Well, it was great talking to you, Rich.
Guest:Mark, I appreciate it, man.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:It was fun.
Marc:Okay, that's our show.
Marc:I'm going to go take a nap.
Marc:Will I play a little guitar?
Marc:I wasn't feeling it, but I might just do it anyways.
Marc:I've got to play low because I'm recording this late at night.
Marc:Don't forget the latest Mark and Tom show is up now.
Marc:If you missed it, it's the episode right before this one in your podcast feed, and you can always get it at WTFPod.com, powered by Squarespace.
Marc:Let me see if I can get some sort of guitar thing going here.
Guest:guitar solo
Bye.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Boomer lives!