Remembering Garry Shandling
Marc:Hey folks, it's Mark.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:I don't like to do this.
Marc:I don't like to have to do this.
Marc:But we do this when somebody I've talked to here in the garage has passed away.
Marc:And one of the great, great comics and comic minds has died.
Marc:Gary Shandling has passed away.
Marc:It's just so sad.
Marc:I did this episode in May 2011.
Marc:It was episode 177.
Marc:So it's only available behind a paywall and out of respect for...
Marc:For Gary, I wanted to give it back to anyone who hasn't heard it and to those of you who want to listen to it again, because it was a pretty amazing and sweet interview.
Marc:And I was very nervous about it.
Marc:He was a very respected and brilliant guy.
Marc:I didn't know him.
Marc:We were not close friends.
Marc:But between his work as a stand-up and on It's Gary Shandling Show and Larry Sanders, of course, how could you not just be in awe of that guy?
Marc:What a hilarious and brilliant guy.
Marc:And I think Judd Apatow helped me set it up.
Marc:And I remember it was one of the first times I actually had a celebrity's email other than Judd's.
Marc:And I didn't know how much I was supposed to pester him or whether we could make it happen.
Marc:And I remember going back and forth with him.
Marc:And then, you know, even his emails were hilarious.
Marc:And I was like, you know, and it kind of...
Marc:played out for a little while before we could actually do the show.
Marc:He wasn't sure if he wanted to do the show.
Marc:And by the time he got here, I was so beside myself and so nervous and didn't know what to expect.
Marc:I didn't know if he was just going to make fun of me the whole time.
Marc:I just had no idea because the one thing that I knew from watching Shandling
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And his timing on stage was unlike anybody else's.
Marc:You know, his ability to prolong a take, to sort of, you know, drop punchlines in a slightly stilted, you know, pausing way.
Marc:You know, stylistically, it was just so unique and so right on the mark, but so in the tradition of stand-up, of being a comedian.
Marc:You know, he was a joke-driven stand-up with a truly unique personality.
Marc:persona and point of view.
Marc:There was a neurosis that seemed to operate at such an intense level that it gave him an almost Buddha-like nervousness, if that's possible.
Marc:And it was just such a thrill to watch him do stand-up.
Marc:And obviously, with Larry Sanders, he reinvented the medium of television.
Marc:Everything that you see on television that you like owes some debt to Larry Sanders.
Marc:He reinvented it by tearing it open from the inside and creating this cast of characters whose depth just oozed out of their broken egos.
Marc:in this just subliminally hilarious way.
Marc:You'd never seen a cast of characters like that, and the comedy was so specific and so perfect, mind-blowing, and continues to be mind-blowing.
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:You just don't expect people to die.
Marc:I know we're supposed to expect it, but I don't expect it.
Marc:And he was certainly young.
Marc:He was 66, I believe, and we should have had him for longer.
Marc:The thing that I think everyone needs to realize about Gary Shandling is that he was a truly original comic genius.
Marc:And he had a way of seeing and a way of doing and a way of constructing comedy, both in his act and on television, in a way that was completely original.
Marc:And that is really such a rare thing.
Marc:And it's sublime, man.
Marc:The guy was fucking sublime.
Marc:But I wanted to share this interview because one thing that amazed me about him that I did not expect to happen was how much peace of mind he had.
Marc:From all appearances, for an utterly neurotic Jewish guy, he had an amazing peace of mind.
Marc:He seemed to be at peace with himself.
Marc:He seemed to have wisdom around himself.
Marc:How peace of mind is attained.
Marc:And it definitely felt like the peace of mind that Gary Shanley had when I spoke with him was earned.
Marc:And that he was vigilant about maintaining that peace of mind.
Marc:And so I'm happy I have this conversation to give back.
Marc:And I'm a little bit devastated that...
Marc:I won't run into him again or see him around.
Marc:He was just one of those guys.
Marc:If I'd see him, I'd get all excited.
Marc:I'd want to run up to him and go, Hey, what's up?
Marc:What's up, Gary?
Marc:How you doing?
Marc:And just watch him kind of pull back a little bit and be all nervous at my weird lack of boundaries and aggressive energy.
Marc:Rest in peace, Gary Shanling.
Marc:You were one of the greats.
Marc:So here's my conversation with Gary Shanling from May 2011.
Marc:Come on, it's the future, man.
Marc:I'm working from home, Gary.
Marc:Oh, buddy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Listen, I mean, my buddy, a good friend of mine, just said to me, let's get you on your website talking.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:Let's get something going.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I've got to yet do that.
Guest:Are you thinking?
Guest:Yeah, I have a friend who's an architect.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Does he have a podcast?
Guest:No, he's just very, very smart.
Guest:He's a Harvard grad, and we get along really well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I shot something for him.
Guest:So what I'm saying is I'm trying to catch up to the future.
Marc:Yeah, I'm new to it.
Guest:But, you know, lots of people told me about you.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like five.
Guest:Yeah, that's a lot.
Guest:And then someone, my buddy Bruce Grayson, who's kind of one of my best friends, he's a makeup artist.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He called me two nights ago, and he said...
Guest:Listen, there's this woman that I know who's really smart and especially creative, and maybe he mentioned her name.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she said, you should listen to this guy, and he does an interview show or something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he goes, is it Mark?
Guest:I said, it's Mark Maron.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He said, yeah, that's it.
Guest:I said, I'm doing it two days from now.
Guest:That's really a severe coincidence.
Marc:I think people listen to it.
Marc:I mean, a lot of people seem to like it.
Guest:Sarah Silverman, I think, told me.
Marc:Sarah was on my show.
Marc:I talked to her for an hour.
Marc:I think Judd told you.
Marc:And then you met me.
Marc:Is that me?
Marc:That's you?
Guest:Are you already taping?
Marc:Sure, we can start taping whenever you want.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, have you been?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Have we been taping this part?
Marc:We're taping this part now.
Guest:I think that's a good idea.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:What do you mean now?
Guest:You mean like just starting now?
Marc:No, it's been happening.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:I started it when I mentioned the driveway.
Yeah.
Guest:You didn't start it 12 years ago when I met you in the bathroom.
Marc:The comedy story?
Guest:Well, you know, when we're in the bathroom together, I forget where it is.
Marc:I was hoping you wouldn't remember that.
Guest:No, I couldn't tell you where I met you.
Guest:You'd have to tell me because I have a bad memory, but I remember just bumping into you, of course, in your driveway before this.
Marc:Just now?
Guest:No, but I remember meeting you at...
Marc:Paul Provenza sure that's what we met but I think that was the first time we actually met I think I might have met you when you hosted the young comedian special in in Aspen and I was just mad that I wasn't part of it and that and then I actually the first memory I have of you I was working the back lot at the comedy store and
Marc:And you drove up in, I believe, a gray Porsche.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that possible?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I offered to park.
Marc:I said, you want to give me the keys?
Marc:And you said, no.
Marc:And you left it.
Guest:No, that's a good impression you did.
Guest:It was not an impression.
Guest:Well, Mark, I mean, I really don't care about material things.
Guest:I just get concerned that vomit could ruin the paint.
Yeah.
Guest:And once you take it into that back lot at the comedy store, which smells like vomit, doesn't it, the back parking lot?
Marc:There's something wrong with that place all around.
Guest:Doesn't it smell like vomit in the back?
Marc:Yeah, if it doesn't smell like pot, it smells like vomit.
Guest:Yeah, it smells like some strange mix.
Marc:But you weren't really working there at that time that much.
Marc:I mean, I seem to have gotten there right after everybody that really became big out of that place left.
Marc:I think you were practicing to host a show or present an Oscar or something.
Marc:I remember watching you and thinking like, holy shit, this guy's in a different time zone with his comedy and it's amazing.
Marc:And then you left.
Marc:It was like four minutes.
Marc:And being in a different time zone is a good thing.
Guest:That's what I was wondering.
Marc:Yes, I figured.
Guest:It brings me to the idea of jet lag, if that's what you meant.
Marc:No, I mean, you have a very deliberate style of timing.
Marc:It's completely your own, and that's a hard thing to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you find that?
Marc:I mean, when you started out, were you more manic at any other time?
Guest:No, I think I was never really manic.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:However, I think the...
Guest:the idea of that slow-paced style in which I'm speaking to you now, and that's purely because I'm thinking, is also sort of exaggerated, because I think there's a certain pace...
Guest:that is required on stage.
Guest:On the other hand, I've been working sort of slower than ever recently, and I'm trying to find a newer style that's so conversational that people participate when they're supposed to be laughing.
Guest:And the other thing is, of course, Zach Galifianakis has a very...
Guest:contemporary slow pace, usual pace, which I think you and I both saw.
Guest:I'm assuming you saw it some years ago.
Guest:People don't realize how long he's been honing that style down because he had a talk show at one time, which was fantastic and never picked up for any length of time.
Marc:Oh, on VH1.
Marc:Yeah, I thought it was good.
Marc:Yeah, it was.
Marc:It was like 12 years ago.
Marc:Yeah, a lot of stuff going on.
Marc:I remember that.
Marc:It was almost like it was in a hangar space.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there was a lot of things, and he was walking around with a clipboard.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's funny how that works, because if you thought of Zach Galifianakis having a talk show now, you'd watch it immediately.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:But that's what happens.
Marc:You never know who's going to sort of surface and turn into something.
Guest:Yeah, you don't.
Guest:It's kind of like trying to draft an athlete out of college, and you try and figure out if they can make it in the pros.
Yeah.
Guest:You know, that's why they have the combine now in professional football.
Guest:They don't even trust what they see.
Guest:They have to measure how long is his jump, how fast is his hundred, how fast.
Guest:They get into technical stuff.
Marc:It becomes almost like a slave auction in some weird way.
Marc:That might be a little dark, but you know what I'm saying.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I'm sure behind the locker room that's discussed by some of the players.
Marc:They're still owned.
Marc:Yeah, agricultural auction.
Marc:It's almost like the same stats of animals.
Marc:Yeah, you're measuring it.
Guest:So it would be like taking us and saying, here, read these ten jokes.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:Just see if you have a funny delivery.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then, okay, give us four of your own, and then at the end there's a score.
Marc:Right, and then they go, wait, what's his thoroughbreeding?
Marc:What's his parents?
Marc:What's the lineage?
Marc:Yeah, what's his parents funny?
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Selfish Jew, selfish Jew, three generations back.
Guest:Perfect.
Guest:There's no getting around that my family would knock me out.
Guest:Ha, ha, ha.
Guest:For the comedy thing?
Guest:Right for the get-go.
Guest:No, I think they'd pass.
Marc:Yeah, oh, absolutely.
Marc:Because I had this moment where I don't know what... Like, I got this... I don't know you that well.
Marc:Obviously, we've never talked before, but I seem to think that you have answers and that you have an acute sensitivity to comedic personalities.
Marc:Because you said something to me about when we were sitting on stage for the Probenza thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you mentioned, you know, you said your mother.
Marc:And I was like, yeah.
Marc:Was that just a guess?
Guest:Well, I mean, Mark, I'm not a psychic, but I assume everybody has a mother.
Guest:No, I can probably, sure, I think you can intuit a mother issue from a father issue in people when it's sort of... You can?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:I mean, not always accurately, and there's so many complicated combinations thereof.
Marc:Right, but what do you think the most...
Marc:Like the mother thing, because I never assumed that it was necessarily a mother issue.
Guest:Well, it might not be.
Guest:How was your dad?
Marc:He's a manic depressive lunatic.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But my mother was the one who made me afraid of food.
Guest:Oh, so they were both a little... Hell yeah.
Marc:You?
Guest:Well, my father was actually, I would say, really completely normal.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:To a fault?
Yeah.
Guest:No, I think, seriously, I think he had his own business.
Guest:He had a printing company that was very successful.
Guest:I'm just going through it now in my head.
Guest:I mean, I think it's interesting.
Guest:He had his own business.
Guest:So when you think about it, doing comedy is your own business.
Guest:So I followed in his footsteps.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I just didn't do it on the – I was afraid I'd get my hand caught in the press.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's why I didn't follow in his –
Guest:I didn't find the printing business interesting, but he was a big company and very successful.
Guest:And on the quiet side, I think of integrity and sort of humorous.
Guest:I remember once we were in a restaurant when I was certainly under 10 years of age.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This man said, hey, Irv, which was my dad's name, Irv Shandling.
Guest:And he played basketball in high school and college.
Guest:He was an honorable mention All-American with a kind of running jumper, you know, like the old school kind of basketball.
Guest:And he said something like...
Guest:Irv, you know my wife, Helen.
Guest:And he said, hi.
Guest:And the guy said to my dad, Helen's lost 90 pounds.
Guest:And he goes, wow.
Guest:And now she's right where she wants to be.
Guest:And my dad said, in that booth, in the restaurant.
Guest:And I'm not saying it's like the funniest thing I've ever heard by any imagination, but I will not be able to come up with something funny my mother said.
Yeah.
Guest:It's just whack behavior.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, but I think that the turn of phrase and the surprise ending, that's definitely a well-crafted joke in that moment.
Guest:It shows that he was sort of... Witty.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Dry.
Marc:And your mom, nothing.
Marc:No funny.
Guest:My mom is a character that is somewhat stereotypical to the Jewish mom who I, as you probably know, say in my act, wanted to marry me.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, that's it.
Guest:Yeah, completely conflicted because she wanted me to have kids but not with another man.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Not with another woman.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's a very hard joke to get correct.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:My mother wanted me to have children, but not with another.
Guest:Nor with another man, by the way.
Marc:Yeah, either way.
Guest:Either way was bad.
Guest:She just didn't want me away from her.
Guest:And her sister, I think, is a little loopy who lives in Chicago because her sister said to her kids, if anyone leaves Evanston, I automatically disown you.
Guest:So when her kids grew up.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:They moved out of Evanston.
Guest:It was that kind of nuttiness.
Guest:It's pretty nutty.
Marc:That's that weird kind of like a meshed, you know, don't leave me kind of, yeah, craziness.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, my parents, I don't know, my parents were, how did your parents end up Jews?
Guest:So if my dad was a little quiet, and I'll answer my question about how they ended up Jews, I'm sure it was their fourth selection.
Guest:It couldn't have been the first thing.
Marc:You grew up in the Southwest.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So listen, this is what makes it so weird.
Guest:So here's where I might have been manic.
Guest:I might have been manic had they lived in New York, but they were in Chicago and moved to Arizona when I was two.
Guest:So I grew up in the desert.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I grew up in New Mexico.
Guest:Oh, I didn't know that.
Marc:Yeah, stranded Jews.
Marc:I mean, it's like, to me, that meant that they needed to get as far away as possible.
Guest:Yeah, no, I was the only Jew.
Guest:I mean, the Don't Ask, Don't Tell applied to me for 15 years.
Guest:I didn't say jack shit.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'd say, no, no, I wasn't celebrating the holiday.
Guest:I had a cold.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But now, where are you, Phoenix?
Marc:Tucson, Arizona.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So your family, the Shandlings, were one of the original Arizona Jews.
Yeah.
Guest:I think that's probably right.
Marc:There's more now there.
Guest:Yeah, they've discovered it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, it's that dry heat.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, I like the desert, but I think my dad was a tad quiet like me.
Guest:And then my mother was very, very assertive, smothering.
Guest:And you don't know what to do with that.
Guest:No, you don't.
Guest:You don't know what to do with that because you can't, even in therapy, if you were to encounter that in a couple, you don't know how to get the person to stop.
Marc:You don't have to extract the person from the person.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:She's hiding behind herself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My mother was just overly needy.
Marc:The smothering thing was never an issue.
Marc:It was just never enough.
Guest:I think probably as I look at you, though, now and just took a second when I met you.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I liked you right away, quite frankly.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And that's what separated me from the others.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Marc:There's some rhythm of that.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
Guest:They pretended.
Guest:I mean, yes, I saw something I relate to, which is a compliment.
Guest:I mean, I sort of see a desire to rise above your...
Guest:crazy issues, which I think, by the way, everybody has.
Guest:I agree.
Guest:Rather than shove them down, you've probably examined them to some degree.
Guest:Can you talk about it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that's why I think we had common ground immediately.
Marc:Well, what's your process?
Marc:I mean, like on any given day, like today, you know, I got obsessed about something.
Marc:I began compulsively eating, and I was anxious about traveling, and I get spun out.
Marc:I mean, what do you do every day?
Marc:How was your crazy manifested?
Marc:Sorry, I didn't check in on you earlier.
Marc:Yeah, you should have called.
Guest:Well, you did, actually.
Guest:I don't have any real compulsive, obsessive issues.
Guest:The neuroses triggers now and then.
Guest:I would get anxious about traveling.
Guest:I think a lot of people do, but I do really go... I sort of get indecisive about which thing to...
Guest:to do because I have a voice in my head that says you should do this or you should do that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think that's the that's the these are the things I've tried to rise above and still tackle the issue of being free to be exactly who I am.
Marc:The paralysis of indecision.
Guest:There is a paralysis to indecision, and a buddy of mine who knows me well said there's a no-win there because sometimes I make a decision and I feel that wasn't the right decision.
Guest:But I've gotten a lot better with that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:By the way, I started to box about...
Guest:11 years ago.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Just started to box.
Guest:And the reason is twofold.
Guest:One is out of my comfort zone completely.
Guest:Never was a kid who got into fights.
Guest:And so the idea of really being in a ring where someone's going to start throwing punches and then...
Guest:The really main reason, the other one, is that you don't have time to think.
Guest:So it becomes completely intuitive.
Guest:Someone's throwing a punch, you have to counter or you move or you step back or you move in.
Guest:But you can't think about it.
Guest:And when you land a punch, you can't think about it.
Marc:Are you getting good at it?
Guest:Well, I'm sure getting better than I was, which is better than getting worse.
Guest:Do you wear headgear?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I wear headgear that goes from my head down to my knees.
Guest:It's the biggest one they've ever seen.
Guest:But the point of it is it's made by a Jewish company.
Marc:Are you a sponsor?
Marc:Yeah, I'm sponsored by... By the full body mat?
Guest:No, that metal sweeping equipment used on the beach to find coins buried in the sand.
Marc:What are those called?
Guest:Yeah, what are they called?
Guest:My future?
Guest:Probably originally used for landmines, to find landmines.
Marc:Sure, until the first guy found a ring and said, you know, when I get back to the States...
Marc:This is going to be the thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Those are the things.
Marc:So you start boxing.
Marc:But isn't comedy a little out of the comfort zone?
Marc:I mean, I feel like that's why I did comedy.
Marc:Yeah, very.
Marc:Exactly what you're saying, your experience with boxing is my experience with comedy.
Marc:It's the only time I feel present.
Marc:It's the only time where my reflexes take over.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:And it's the only time I literally feel open and myself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So what I would say to that is you should live like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because what happens is the thing goes on in your life and you don't think of it as in your life.
Guest:If you're on stage, you don't have time to do anything with a heckler but say a few words and get it over with and move on to the next thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Whereas you obsess in real life.
Marc:Well, what happens, what could happen?
Marc:No, it's changing.
Marc:I mean, I'm not, you know.
Guest:No, you're growing or you wouldn't be talking about it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it's like I don't have time or the energy to beat the shit out of myself anymore.
Guest:Well said.
Marc:I mean, it's just weird.
Marc:As you get older, it's sort of like you get it.
Marc:It's just exhausting, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And even if I have, like yesterday, I did.
Guest:You can't win a welterweight belt for beating the shit out of yourself.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right, especially if yourself is a heavyweight.
Guest:That would be a good narcissistic boxing belt to win.
Marc:It's true.
Marc:Even like yesterday I did Ferguson's show and I hadn't done it before.
Marc:How did that go?
Marc:It was fine.
Marc:But I did that thing where I don't know who you are when you get off stage, but it had been a while since I'd done that.
Marc:I thought I rushed through the last joke.
Marc:I thought the panel was a little awkward because even though I like to have a free-form conversation like we're having right now, but he does that with his panel.
Marc:Like he literally like just give him 30 things about you and then he's just going to talk.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I think I think there's a fair amount of sort of looking back and judging exactly what happened because it also happened so fast.
Guest:I mean, I think that's right.
Guest:That's why they look at the film of the game.
Marc:Right, but I didn't have a film.
Marc:I just had me saying I don't even want to see the film.
Marc:Right, I think it's fair.
Marc:Right, that's me too.
Marc:And I'm walking off, and I did that thing where I got off where I haven't done a while.
Marc:I don't know if you do this, where the guy comes up, the producer, and he says, that was great.
Marc:That was really great.
Marc:And then I say, really?
Marc:Was it because I don't want to take this experience away from you because I don't believe what you're saying?
Marc:And I didn't think it went that great.
Marc:I didn't say that, but I said it by saying, really?
Guest:Yeah, those are tough decisions to make.
Guest:I actually had a...
Guest:I feel bad for you.
Guest:Those are tough decisions.
Guest:I don't have anything to say.
Guest:Have you done that?
Guest:I've done it where I've said something, and I've done it where I haven't said something.
Guest:But I'll tell you, recently I did a talk show, which will remain nameless for the moment, after I boozed it up in the second half hour of the show, I'll tell you.
Guest:But the producer ran over to me at the end of the show and literally said to me, it's not your fault.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And I actually think I know what he meant, but it got me wondering for a second.
Marc:Oh, shit.
Marc:Isn't that a good one?
Guest:It's not your fault.
Guest:That's a great one.
Marc:Yeah, the first thing he says?
Guest:Yeah, and it wasn't sort of an obvious.
Guest:It was an overall note.
Marc:Right, and did you parse it in your head and find that it wasn't your fault?
Guest:I had a hunch of what he was talking about, but it still can get you...
Guest:wondering for a second but i knew the fellow well enough that we were able to talk it out so and by the way yeah may i say to you my dear friend yes sometimes it's not your fault okay yeah so when those lights are on you know yeah turn them off there with those cameras no people don't know what it exactly feels like
Guest:It feels like if you're you or me, it feels like it's your fault.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sometimes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Sometimes it isn't.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, that's weird.
Marc:What you're saying is true.
Marc:And I mean, you've spent a lot more time in front of the lights than I have, but it is a heightened reality.
Marc:And in that moment, all you're thinking is like, don't even acknowledge that you're in this heightened reality where you're talking to the host of a show and everything's happening in the minute.
Marc:But when you're in it, you completely know it.
Marc:You know, there's no way not to know it.
Guest:I think probably that's why, Mark, I lean towards using the camera when I do those shows, especially when I would host something.
Guest:I kind of look over to the camera because it's like, you know, hey, I know we're all looking at this and we're all together on this and I just screwed up or he screwed up or whatever.
Guest:You're a great reactor.
Guest:Yeah, I'm a good reactor.
Marc:Was that a planned thing?
Guest:No, I don't think you can plan that.
Guest:I don't think... I said, God, hey, try and give me kind of a wacky mom so I can just fucking react.
Marc:Come out of that womb just going, huh?
Marc:Just look baffled and try to smile through it.
Guest:Yeah, so I was given that choice from birth, I would say.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:Well, that was a gift.
Guest:I mean, that's a life question, isn't it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What you just said, you just baffled and... Baffled and smile through it.
Guest:Yeah, that's how some people choose to live their life.
Guest:Period.
Marc:Yeah, that's it.
Marc:That's how some people choose to live their life.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Think of that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Think of that.
Marc:I'm thinking about it.
Guest:Yeah, and then they want to blame others.
Marc:But have you gotten to the point where you can thank your mom?
Marc:Like this is a gift?
Guest:I actually gave my mom a really nice thank you gift for her birthday once and wrote a note on there saying, Mom, I couldn't have done this without you.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:and she looked at it this is true and looked at it and then took a beat and then looked up we were alone in the kitchen yeah kitchen and she said why why can't you say this on tv and i looked at her and i said well let me see if i have this right would it mean more to you if i said it on tv as opposed to right now when i'm with you in the kitchen in person speaking to you as your son yeah she said on tv
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I don't want to hear you say, oh, my God.
Guest:I never thought it was that big a deal until Mark Maron says, oh, my God.
Marc:But then the question, for me, if I put myself in your position, I would be like, all right, okay, I'll try to say it on TV.
Guest:I thank my mom on TV.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think it's followed by, you know, to make her happy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't remember the... Yeah.
Guest:But, yeah.
Guest:I think the part of that is people get very confused with... She's also confused with what's real when I'm on TV or when I'm... I don't think she knows which one is real, to be honest.
Guest:She can't separate the truth from what she sees on TV and so forth and so on.
Marc:Or does she like the one on TV better?
Marc:That's what I'm concerned with.
Marc:uh that would be your concern yeah that's interesting i want to think about that for a second my mother barely talks to me now she listens to this show twice a week she listens to the show so she knows what's going on in my life we barely speak and every once in a while she'll go you're going to like i got an email two days ago you're going to australia and that's uh that's how we communicate what do you say to that i don't respond right no no i do i i said yeah i'm going to so we're actually the truth is we're doing this show for your mother
Marc:That's right.
Marc:It's all for my mother.
Guest:To help you from having to confront your mother.
Guest:We're doing this show to help you from confronting with your mother.
Guest:That's what the whole subtext of this show is, isn't it?
Marc:Could you say something nice to my mother?
Guest:Hi, Mark's mom.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:I can tell you he loves you because the place is plastered with your pictures.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You're hot.
Marc:Oh, yeah, she is.
Marc:A little too hot.
Marc:That's her right there with me with the beehive hairdo on that desk over there.
Guest:Let me look.
Marc:Yeah, that's what I had to live with.
Guest:Well, you can't tell him that much from a photo.
Marc:Look at that haircut.
Guest:Lee Harvey Oswald doesn't look like such a bad guy when you just look at the still.
Marc:Look at her.
Marc:She's baffled.
Marc:She's pretending like that.
Guest:Oh, she is kind of.
Guest:She's attractive.
Marc:Yeah, very attractive.
Marc:I mean, she's older now.
Marc:Where was this?
Marc:That was in my grandmother's house in New Jersey.
Marc:In New Jersey, yeah.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Guest:Well, that generation, you know, I had a dream, actually.
Guest:I had a dream last year that, this is true, that somehow I ended up in my mother's house in the 30s or something, you know?
Guest:And there was no sense of, this was in my dream, there was no sense of, of course, of therapy, of self-realization, of anything looking inward, any awareness.
Guest:There was no sense of it even in the air.
Marc:I don't, like...
Marc:Sometimes when you're in dreams and there's that moment where you have absolutely no awareness of yourself, it's fucking beautiful.
Marc:Man.
Marc:Sorry, man.
Guest:It's getting too deep.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:It just struck me deeply that you're in pain and that should go on a T-shirt.
Guest:Give it to me again.
Guest:Sometimes when you're in a dream and you have no consciousness of yourself, it's just beautiful because you have no awareness of yourself.
Guest:So you always have an awareness of yourself that brings pain, right?
Marc:No, no.
Guest:You feel better when all of a sudden you're not conscious of yourself.
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, we can talk about other things, though.
Guest:I don't think we can.
Guest:I bet you $100 it comes back to this every time.
Marc:No, I didn't bring you here to talk about me.
Marc:Yes, you did.
Guest:You said, I think you know you have some answers.
Marc:Well, you seem to have some.
Guest:And then you started asking.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I mean, what I want to know is how do you evolve into outside.
Marc:Okay, so the indecisiveness and then the sort of beating the shit out of yourself.
Marc:And you've taken action around that stuff.
Marc:You're boxing.
Marc:You always played basketball.
Marc:I know because I knew guys who played basketball with you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I always thought that if I knew how to play basketball when I was a younger comic, I could have met you sooner.
Marc:But I didn't know how to play basketball, and everyone was going over there to play basketball with you.
Marc:I felt like I blew an opportunity there because I knew people who played basketball there.
Guest:So I think one mistake is thinking of it as an opportunity because it's really just a life experience.
Guest:We play basketball.
Guest:So it would have stood out that you felt like it was an opportunity.
Marc:It would have stood out because I don't know how to play.
Guest:Well, that too, so you've been screwed.
Marc:Either way.
Guest:Yeah, but like a lot of guys... You're lucky you didn't play in the game.
Marc:Was it pretty competitive?
Guest:No, we still play, but I don't know.
Guest:No, it's a fun game.
Guest:They're all great guys.
Marc:Who do you play with?
Guest:Who do you play with?
Guest:I can't name them all because it's kind of like a... Oh, okay.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It's a bit of a kind of sacred guys game.
Guest:Sure, no, I get it.
Marc:But when you started out, you weren't a comic.
Marc:You didn't start in comedy.
Guest:No, I started as a writer.
Guest:After college, I wrote for Sanford and Son when I was like 25 years old.
Marc:Did you think Red Fox was hilarious?
Guest:I thought Red Fox was funny, but I was learning to write scripts.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then after I wrote three of them that they shot, I was confused because I was...
Guest:kind of uh wondering how you write more than three why do you write 20 why do you write 40 right and uh i had a therapist then which was very fortunate and i said i i think i'm something's wrong with me because i anyone would be happy to be working on the number one show at the time yeah and uh be making uh really good money and and why am i she said you're bored
Guest:And it struck me like a therapist saying everything my mother had never said.
Guest:That's how it struck me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because I was always taught that it was, you're a problem.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, she said, you're bored.
Guest:And I never thought of it that way.
Guest:And that's when I started to do stand-up, because I was bored.
Guest:And that's why the Larry Sanders Show, for instance, is not really a formula...
Guest:uh series it was like it made it hard but it was like a little movie every week as opposed to uh some formula but when you did you know once you figured out your comic voice and you were you know guest hosting the tonight show and stuff like that was there did you feel limitations within yeah i get bored fast man i i would host for a week and then i went now why would you why would i do this for a whole year first of all i mean it's very hard for a lifetime
Guest:And then the reward, if it goes well, you do it for a lifetime or something.
Guest:And I sure envy those guys who do it well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, I mean, it's even the same with my stand-up, which is why I'm in the middle, as I speak to you, of trying to expand my style into something that's current with how I think of life now.
Guest:How are you approaching that?
Guest:It's really tricky, but it's, you know, a bit of a conversation about the world and what...
Guest:I saw a lot of this stuff coming with the world.
Guest:I was a hippie and anti-establishment, and this materialistic money run is a dead run, and that's just what we're proving.
Guest:As we speak, I think the government's conceivably bankrupt as of 48 hours from now or something as we speak.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:So nothing surprises me.
Guest:Like, I don't think the system works.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But in some ways, I think the obstacle with that is for enough people, it seems to work okay, and no one wants to fight it.
Guest:I think they're starting to flail a bit, too.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I think the masses are certainly flailing, and I think they don't know...
Guest:what it is, and they're not willing to admit that it's all of us who have supported a false system and a big false system with a big spin.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:Which isn't God we trust, which is not the case at all.
Guest:It's that money and power matter.
Marc:Well, the government has been sort of functioning as a money laundering operation.
Guest:Yes, but I think when you have to say that's right, it's one big Ponzi scheme.
Guest:But I think when you say the government, you have to understand that you have the responsibility in that.
Guest:I think each person has probably thought, ah, these are my values.
Guest:They're the same as I want money and I want a job and I want this and I want that too and I want a better car.
Marc:It becomes hard to not be hypocritical even if you're a liberal thinker.
Guest:That's correct.
Marc:Because everybody wants to be comfortable, and then you sort of send money to a charity of your choice, and you feel like you're doing something.
Guest:Yeah, and I always put in parentheses on those charity donations, I put loan, and I never see the money again.
Guest:And I go, look, in parentheses, it says loan.
Marc:I really do.
Guest:I donated a lot to the Japanese earthquake, to the Red Cross.
Guest:A lot of money.
Guest:You put loan in parentheses.
Guest:They owe me so much.
Guest:It's awkward now when I meet anybody from the Red Cross.
Guest:I don't know whether to say anything or not.
Marc:You should just look at him and go, huh?
Marc:Where's that?
Guest:I go, you know, I haven't heard from you guys.
Guest:And he goes, what are you talking about?
Guest:Then I feel awkward.
Guest:You know, it's a middle of a disaster.
Marc:It's not the time to bring up money.
Marc:You'll get it back.
Marc:Karmically, you'll get it back.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:Isn't that the big plan?
Guest:Yes, I'll probably get four pints of blood.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that's worth it when you need it.
Marc:So you're trying to engage on a sociopolitical level with people?
Guest:Yes, and ultimately an emotional, psychological level, because it's really we can't know what the problem is unless we know who we are.
Guest:So anybody who doesn't know their true self, they can't know what the problem is.
Guest:So there's no winning unless you know who you are.
Guest:And the only real change can come from within.
Guest:So when we talk about change, yes, we can.
Guest:People think of that as outside themselves, change outside themselves.
Guest:They must change and become more authentic.
Guest:Otherwise, the system is going to continue to fail.
Guest:It's an addictive culture bottoming out.
Marc:Yeah, I completely agree.
Guest:So while they seem to understand that Lindsay Lohan has a problem of some sort, but they will not say...
Guest:I have a problem of some sort, but what I say about Charlie Sheen is how many of you are still in denial and have the guts to call the rehab center and say, help me, I can't stop watching Charlie Sheen.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, he's on Channel 7.
Guest:Hold on.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because I'm addicted to watching Charlie Sheen.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, because I actually spoke with him.
Marc:And the type of weird shamelessness around the insanity he's experiencing, he actually is pushing out self-awareness.
Marc:He's saying, I will not be aware of what I think implies weakness.
Guest:Well, he's not altogether wrong with many of the things he says.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:The issue of his particular...
Guest:For lack of a better word at the moment, for his particular behavior, some of the issues underlying his particular behavior are for him to discover and for his friends to help as other friends would.
Guest:But there...
Guest:To make it a freak show is falling into the trap of your false self because your false self wouldn't be watching that and wouldn't, you know.
Marc:Let's discuss it.
Marc:Let me just understand something because I feel like we're on the same trajectory.
Guest:Everybody's an addict about something.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So, you know, judge not lest ye be judged.
Marc:So you're saying that culturally we need to go through a crying stage.
Guest:I think culturally we are bottoming out.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But how does that self-awareness begin?
Guest:Okay, here's how self-awareness begins.
Guest:Once you bottom out, which, by the way, no one is willing to admit yet, what we're doing is we're fighting against bottoming out.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And yet when Charlie Sheen fights against bottoming out, we call that weird.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Okay?
Guest:But when America does it,
Guest:That's winning, and that's America.
Guest:So when Charlie Sheen says, I'm winning, I'm sorry, isn't that the motto of the American culture?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We're winners.
Guest:We're going into our third Middle East country, North Africa country, and two Middle Eastern countries, and pretty soon we'll be taking Hawaii again just for the hell of it.
Marc:Yeah, just to make it look like we're winning.
Guest:Yeah, we're going to be winning.
Marc:Mission accomplished.
Marc:We got Hawaii.
Marc:Yeah, mission accomplished.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So that's America.
Guest:But they can see it.
Guest:Everybody can see it when Charlie Sheen does it.
Guest:but they can't see it when they themselves do it.
Guest:So nothing can get repaired with the lying continuing.
Guest:It's no different than a family relationship or anything else.
Guest:It's a lie in the family, which is, I'm sorry, you're addicted.
Guest:You're the one who's addicted to winning and to being the best and having the best religion and the best this and the best that.
Guest:And so there's no true humility.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:There's no true humility and gratitude, which is what an addict has to realize at the bottoming out place.
Marc:You can't be driven by your ego or your false self.
Guest:So I think America should be sort of allowed to bottom out because this is I'm sorry.
Guest:Aren't people embarrassing themselves trying to fight this bottoming out thing?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I'm pounding the problem.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's sort of like you're saying that America is like the emaciated crackhead who's wild-eyed saying, I'm fine.
Guest:I'm fine.
Guest:I don't have a problem.
Guest:Well, they're saying, in fact, I'm more than fine.
Marc:We're winning.
Guest:We're winning.
Guest:We're still number one.
Guest:And, you know, I don't think you can talk yourself into it, which is what spin is supposed to do.
Guest:We're going to talk you into believing.
Right.
Marc:But isn't spin, isn't part of the entertainment complex, part of that, not so much the spin, but the way of avoidance?
Marc:I mean, part of me thinks, like, I have said it on this show before, haven't we been entertained enough?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm going to leave now, as a matter of fact.
Guest:Are you really?
Guest:That's it.
Guest:I bottomed out, right?
Guest:We haven't entertained enough.
Marc:No, you can't leave Gallagher left.
Marc:That would be bad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't put myself above any of these issues, so we have been entertained enough.
Guest:Was there a moment, though, where you... We've forgotten that enough is enough.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, it's just...
Marc:But what was the moment, Gary, where you did very provocative and sort of groundbreaking things with television and with how comedy will be perceived and turning television in on itself satirically and sort of changing the game in terms of format?
Marc:So you've achieved an amazing amount comedically and in your profession, and you're incredibly well-respected.
Marc:And you still tell jokes, yes?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So has this thing that you're talking about now always been kind of like eating at you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, like I said earlier, I was a hippie when I was in college.
Guest:So I was, for some reason, very anti-establishment.
Guest:And if you look at Abbie Hoffman in 1969 and what they were saying, Abbie Hoffman turned out to be exactly right.
Guest:If the United States continues to be about money, it'll be its...
Guest:downfall and we better look at the culture and he was also very funny he was really funny and uh and he did that all without facebook by the way everybody's had facebook has a little revolution yeah and then uh people have forgotten that uh uh in that chicago uh 68 conventions in chicago the the tanks came in and uh
Guest:And we started beating the shit out of those people.
Guest:And we say, look at my God, look at what the Egyptian government was doing to those people who were against the, who want freedom.
Guest:Yes, it happened here.
Marc:Four killed at Kent State.
Guest:And it will happen again if you actually were to do that.
Marc:go out in the streets, which they're doing in Madison a bit, and they're trying to shut that down.
Guest:Yeah, and I actually heard you talk a bit about that, and you said you were a little confused, as am I. I must say that's the most confusing issue that I haven't sorted out yet about the unions and the teachers.
Guest:It's not black and white.
Guest:I kind of thought when students get paid, teachers should get paid.
Guest:That's what I thought.
Guest:I took the wimp approach.
Guest:Let me see if I can make it funny.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's very complicated.
Marc:When you did Larry Sanders, how close were you to being offered a regular position?
Guest:I was.
Guest:I had to make a decision right before.
Guest:I had to make a simultaneous decision.
Guest:Between The Tonight Show?
Guest:Between, no, at that point, the Tonight Show, at that point I was offered, for Sanders, I was offered the show after Letterman.
Guest:I was offered the show after Letterman, which I think... Letterman's old show?
Guest:Letterman had already moved to CBS.
Marc:Okay, so you were offered the Ferguson spot, the 1230.
Guest:Yeah, and prior to that, I was offered the original Conan O'Brien spot.
Marc:I mean, they're going back, going back, going back.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So I had to make a decision, literally, whether to host a talk show on CBS or do a show about a guy who hosts a talk show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so as we're sitting here having this discussion, Mark...
Guest:It would make sense that you could see me choose the guy who hosts the talk show because I can examine all these issues much more deeply.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that interests me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I stayed true, I think, to myself.
Guest:I have no regrets about that move.
Marc:And I think that you would probably be sitting behind a desk hating yourself right now if you had made a different decision.
Guest:I think that's probably true.
Guest:Probably true.
Guest:Of course, depending on the guest list.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:Depending on the guest list.
Marc:So on some level, that was actually a rebellious show, in your mind.
Guest:I think everything...
Marc:When you decided to do Sanders and deconstruct the behind-the-scenes of late-night television.
Guest:I think they're all rebellious shows that I do in a way.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I've never said it like that, but I think they're all a bit anti-establishment.
Marc:Definitely.
Guest:This is my first show, It's Gary Shandling Show.
Guest:NBC wanted to do it, but they said you can't talk to the camera.
Guest:You could talk to a dog.
Guest:Can you put a dog in there and talk to the dog?
Guest:Come on.
Guest:that's true so i wrote a script where i talked to the dog yeah and it felt like a formula to me so i i said no and then showtime said you can talk to anything you fucking want they also were very hesitant to let me play a comedian i played myself a comedian who was uh and they said you can't play a comedian no one will understand they don't understand what a comedian is and
Guest:And I said, well, let's go through that a minute.
Guest:There was the Jack Benny show, the George Burns show, and the Lucy show.
Marc:Dick Van Dyke show?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There you go.
Guest:It's the biggest sitcoms ever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Lucy, I think her husband, Ricky, was in the- The band leader.
Marc:The band leader, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:At the club?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So, you know, I thought that was not accurate because I wasn't going to get into the minuscule kind of minutia of comedy.
Guest:It just was a guy, about a guy.
Marc:Now, when you deal with these executives and they say things like that, what's your impression, having grown up with television, and usually they're probably younger than me at this point, that they're saying these things based on what?
Marc:Their own fear.
Marc:Do you ever feel that?
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:I think that's the other issue, that we're all making decisions based on fear.
Guest:We have to be very, very, very, very, very careful because the other thing we're addicted to in America is the idea of security.
Guest:and trying to make everything permanent and solid and secure.
Guest:In fact, life itself is impermanent, not solid, but purely energy, as proven by quantum mechanics.
Guest:And the idea of trying to make it something secure, going as far as putting up walls around it,
Guest:is ignorance.
Guest:It's just ignorance.
Guest:And so that's all based on fear.
Guest:I mean, we should do what we can to prevent terrorism, but this incredible panic to...
Guest:sense of underlying panic about protecting what we have is what a human being on his own can't do it doesn't there's nowhere in any religion any philosophy where it says once you have the stuff yeah make sure no one else gets it no that's we should be embarrassed yeah that's a that's a power thing that's a politics yeah it's not a religion thing so uh is that crazy am i crazy for that because no one seems to now you would say where does that lead
Marc:What, your vision?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where does that lead?
Guest:You could say, so then what would happen if people lived that way?
Guest:Well, that's an addiction.
Guest:Needing to know the answer is an addiction.
Marc:Well, I think what you're saying is not unlike some of the more idealistic thinkers of the late 60s, where it's why can't the global human community behave like human beings and respect each other across the board?
Marc:Because
Marc:And the problem with that, I guess, is that there's always going to be those people that want to take advantage and control.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:The world is flooded with sociopaths and others who will take advantage, and you do need regulations.
Marc:You're right.
Marc:Now, when you do things like – because I know that you have a lot of respect for –
Marc:for hosting and for comedy, that before you became more politically aware or more in tune with these issues within yourself, I think you exhibited an amazing amount of vulnerability in your stand-up.
Marc:And I think that on some level that that also speaks to the human heart.
Marc:So I think, do you see...
Marc:Do you see that throughout your career?
Marc:You were never an aggressive person.
Marc:You never set out to hurt people.
Marc:And there's actually warmth there.
Marc:Now, did you feel satisfied with that when you were doing it?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And, you know, Mark, I have talks with people that will go unnamed right now until I get that drink that I've been begging for.
Marc:I don't have any.
Guest:No, that's okay.
Guest:I don't really drink.
Guest:But it could be, you know, something.
Marc:I got water.
Marc:I have water.
Marc:I'm going to give you a mug when you leave.
Marc:I had these mugs made.
Marc:It's nice.
Marc:It's got my cats on it.
Guest:It's got your cats on it.
Marc:And my head.
Marc:My head's on it, too, over here.
Marc:And they're very nice.
Marc:They have a good weight to them.
Guest:And you pour stuff in there?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Or coffee.
Marc:Or you can have that cocktail, whatever you need.
Guest:But it comes empty?
Guest:You give it to them empty.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That says a lot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean.
Marc:That says a lot right there.
Marc:But we filled it with this.
Marc:Joy.
Guest:Why don't you fill it with joy?
Marc:I'm going to, if we can get there.
Guest:I'm sorry, buddy.
Marc:No, we're almost at the joy.
Marc:What were you going to say, though?
Marc:Do you remember?
Guest:Yeah, because I said some people that shall go unnamed, I've had long discussions with them talking about that it's actually about heart.
Guest:And really, no matter what you think and no matter how clever and no matter how new and sort of alternative the comedy is, it still is about heart in a very subtextual way.
Guest:And being a full human being really comes across on camera and in life.
Guest:And I think that's a great goal is to become a full human being and a willingness to show your heart.
Guest:And I would say probably that...
Guest:my early comedy in which there was an enormous amount of vulnerability and self-deprecation, that it was accurate in a good way that I discovered to be funny.
Guest:And, you know, I still possess that.
Guest:It's just that we haven't hit that point in our discussion quite yet where it's come up.
Guest:But I still possess that.
Marc:It's definitely there.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I think it's always there.
Guest:That's not going to go away.
Guest:That's a basic part of my personality.
Guest:But...
Guest:But it's balanced out, I think, as I've gotten older.
Guest:And so that's what I'm exploring on stage now is a balance to it.
Marc:And I think that's what resonates with your comedy and always has with me.
Marc:Even when you were exploring somebody as self-centered as Larry Sanders, that the heart of it never came across as... No, I was very... You know, I got to tell you something, Mark.
Guest:Seriously.
Guest:In that writer's room, which is no bigger than the room we're in now as we speak...
Guest:Some people mistakenly think that's a dark show about people trying to get what they want.
Marc:Oh, it's so not.
Guest:No, it is a show about people trying to get love.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that shit gets in the way.
Guest:And they're trying to figure out, you know, with a little lack of awareness, how to get past that shit to get to the love.
Guest:And so, I mean, everybody on that show is, by the way, in reality, we're so close to each other
Guest:in a very special way that no one will ever understand, because we were there on that stage in a really kind of experimental lab kind of way.
Guest:We didn't have the name on the door of the big studio and all that, and it was about exploring feelings.
Marc:Was that a discussion that was had?
Guest:That part about – yes.
Guest:I mean that's my approach to it that then I would have to bring to the sense of the show so there was no confusion because I've worked on shows, different kinds of shows, and I'm experienced.
Guest:So this was a show in which –
Guest:Let's not think of this as a show and that you have to do it right.
Guest:This is about being who you really are and making sure every moment is honest.
Guest:And I think people discovered, actors and writers both, and myself, discovered a lot about ourselves in reality.
Marc:And I think you changed the game with how people were willing to let moments sit with comedy.
Marc:There are moments on the Larry Sanders show where it would just be you and Rip standing there by a camera, watching something on the monitor, and then maybe looking away.
Marc:But, I mean, they would hold for like 20 seconds or 30 seconds.
Guest:Well, because the truth, actually, is in the silence.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:So we come back to the other problem in life, is people are afraid to have a...
Guest:Silent moment like that there.
Guest:And in that silence right there is all the truth and all the wisdom in the world.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I almost cried during those.
Guest:You got to stop fucking talking.
Guest:Everybody's fucking talking.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Jumping up and giving their opinion too quickly.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What is that?
Guest:Addiction.
Guest:Addiction to preventing me from having to discover my true self.
Guest:A defensive reaction to not going any deeper.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Self-protective.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Well, listen, I'll tell you this right now.
Guest:If there was global warming, a friend of mine in the gym said to me the other day, and, you know, I don't really care to use labels like conservative and liberal.
Guest:I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes from.
Guest:But he's very committed, which is his choice, to believe that global warming is not true, which is a very complicated scientific issue.
Guest:And he said, you know, the Sierra snowpack this year set a record.
Guest:It was a 50-foot snowpack this winter.
Guest:So how can there be global warming when there's a snowpack that's broken the record?
Yeah.
Guest:And I said, well, let's think about it for a second.
Guest:I mean, how come you get the chills when you get heat stroke?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he went, wait a minute.
Guest:That's a good point.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:That's a good point.
Guest:It stopped him dead.
Guest:Do you understand?
Guest:He's still thinking about it.
Guest:Here's what he's doing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's taking the concepts of hot and cold, taking them literally, not realizing that
Guest:They are two things on different sides of the same coin.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that when one reacts, there's a reaction equal on the other side of the coin.
Guest:He's just seeing hot and cold.
Guest:And he says, how can it be cold when it's supposed to be hot?
Guest:Well, then how come you get the chills when you get heat stroke?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You short-circuited him.
Guest:It's completely short-circuited him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he stopped.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:It's nice to be able to do that.
Guest:I think that's the idea of what happens in the silence, sort of.
Marc:I think you're right.
Marc:I had a guy, after that thing you heard about the Madison thing, some guy wrote me a letter about how it's unfeasible to carry unions and that if people can't carry their own weight, this is a free market system.
Marc:The market will define the bottom line and level everything off, and that's why it's so good.
Marc:Like three paragraphs of just very well-stated conservative but fiscally conservative talking points.
Marc:And then I noticed at the bottom, he's an architectural firm.
Marc:So all I wrote back was, I understand, period.
Marc:I'm glad you're doing well, period.
Marc:And all he wrote back was crafty, dot, dot, dot.
Guest:Oh, well, crafty is a good perception, really.
Marc:Well, that was the short-circuiting thing.
Marc:That was nice.
Guest:Yeah, that was a good one.
Marc:But those are the moments, I think, like you said, that was two sentences that got that effect.
Guest:I think it's art, Mark.
Guest:I think it's art that brings these truths to the surface.
Guest:I don't think it's ever going to be...
Guest:the politics.
Guest:I don't think it has been historically.
Marc:No, I think the Hart thing is exactly at the heart of the matter, where you look at somebody like Pryor, who somehow or another bridged a racial gap that seemed unbridgeable, just by putting himself, his emotions, you know, opening himself up and taking that risk.
Guest:Yeah, I think you're right.
Marc:That all of a sudden there was a communication that had never happened before between black and white.
Guest:Yeah, that's a good point.
Guest:I think art is mirroring life is what the real definition of
Guest:art is and uh i think you know prior mirroring life itself which was his life uh made you feel compassionate in a way that you're right that you can feel it you can feel it with you too and there's a lot of comics that don't have it there's a lot of comics that are just telling jokes and there's a lot of comics that are yelling but to actually you know take emotional risks that are genuine on stage that's the fucking courage so
Guest:So that's what I'm still trying to do, and it's hard.
Guest:It's hard because there are emotional risks, and I don't even know sometimes what I want to say in those risks.
Guest:So that's what I'm dealing with.
Guest:That's why I sort of, when you asked me to do this a couple months ago, I said, give me a month, and then it was give me another few weeks.
Guest:Because I was still in a place where I was working on that pretty intensely, and I still am.
Marc:Do you think about TV projects now?
Yeah.
Guest:I think about TV projects like every 30 days.
Guest:It's the closest I come to being a woman is every 30 days I get cranky.
Guest:And I realize it's because I'm thinking about TV and what I should do on TV.
Guest:That's the truth.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I can't put my finger on it.
Guest:I haven't found an idea that I'm passionate about to...
Guest:But we'll see if I come up with something as I continue forward in this vein that I've spoken about.
Marc:Do you feel like a compulsion to do it or it just comes and goes?
Guest:It comes and goes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But can I talk to you about that moment, though?
Marc:Because I thought that I tried to talk to you about it.
Guest:Yeah, what was it again?
Yeah.
Marc:I forgot.
Marc:It was just one of these.
Marc:And it was actually a reflection on what you're talking about.
Marc:And I think you're at a different point.
Marc:But it was such a beautiful moment where you were hosting the Grammys.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Jack Nicholson was presenting Bob Dylan with the Lifetime Achievement Award.
Marc:And Bob Dylan played a song that no one could identify.
Marc:And Jack brought him to the podium.
Marc:Right.
Marc:and uh and in jack was you know sort of in his time zone and and a little stilted and uh and then and then dylan takes the podium takes the mic and jack's standing next to him and there's a long pause like awkwardly long pause and then dylan says well it's just like my father always told me and then another really long pause and he goes yeah he said a lot of things and then another long pause and then you know he thanks
Marc:And he walks off.
Marc:And then they go to commercial, and you come back on and say, Jack Nicholson and Bob Dylan are backstage.
Marc:I just overheard them backstage talking about how they wanted to do more television.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And to me, it was so hilarious.
Guest:Hopefully, I would say in hindsight, knowing them both now, knowing them both personally, by the way, and having to, in fact...
Guest:Explain that it wasn't an attack to one of them.
Guest:Because, I mean, how can you love any more than you would love those two guys?
Marc:That's right.
Guest:Absolutely right on the line of...
Marc:But that's a risk that happens, right?
Guest:They're so completely authentic that I think the audience felt something that needed to be commented on or it would be in denial itself.
Guest:And that is a way, if I'm not mistaken, of doing it without really saying anything wrong.
Marc:negative about those guys it was just true in the moment right but also television in itself as a medium is it undermines authenticity it doesn't require authenticity and for you to find it with Larry Sanders or with other because even I agree with you I think even the reality shows as we all know are mediated that's right the only time you cut and edited the only time you see authenticity is like when someone's being taken away in handcuffs
Marc:And they're going, fuck you, that bitch did it again.
Marc:It's like, that's a real moment.
Guest:I used to do a bit about that where that person then turns and winks to the camera.
Marc:Because they even know, they still know they're on camera.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And I think that, like, in getting back... Why do criminals put, like, a jacket over their head when there's a television camera covering them?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That means you don't need a gun in your house.
Guest:You just need a TV camera.
Guest:But what?
Guest:Run with a sheet over their head?
Guest:I don't want anyone to see me publicly until I worked it out.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Guest:I'm just working on it.
Guest:Give me a second.
Marc:So I think your statement was about television, not about those individuals.
Guest:I love those guys that are authentic and sort of rebellious, and they may have issues to deal with.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:But it is the human spirit, and it is raw.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So, you know, raw human spirit is good.
Marc:It may be developing into something.
Marc:It may level off eventually, but it might not.
Marc:So you have a relationship with those guys now.
Marc:I mean, you've been around a while.
Marc:Some, yeah.
Marc:And like Dylan, as a human being, is completely fascinating and utterly self-aware of what he puts out there in a way.
Guest:Well, he's utterly fascinating, and he's masterfully deserving of his privacy, which will prevent me from saying anything more than how much I admire him, which is true.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, no, I find him amazing.
Marc:You know what else I find amazing about him is that he keeps working, and that he loves to work, apparently.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That he lives on stage.
Marc:Do you fight with that at all, the desire to get on stage or not get on stage?
Yeah.
Guest:No, I don't have... I would say that, as opposed to most of the guys, I actually don't love it.
Guest:It's not like I can't wait to get on stage.
Guest:However, there's a love of something.
Guest:If you can explain it to me, I'll be happy to listen.
Guest:But there's a love of some kind of expression and connection and communication.
Guest:And look, man, I mean...
Guest:I liked making the class laugh when I could.
Guest:I wasn't the class clown, you know that.
Guest:You can picture it.
Guest:It was more like just laying a line in there when it was the right time.
Guest:And I remember being a kid thinking, oh, I missed that moment.
Guest:I can't go back and get it.
Guest:It's too late.
Guest:So there was this innate sense of timing.
Guest:So I would say it's my path.
Guest:In fact, I say that comics all the time that are starting out, it almost has to be a calling because it's so hard.
Marc:I don't know it to be anything else for me.
Marc:I mean, there was never a second choice.
Guest:Yeah, so I think the interesting part is why is it a calling, you know?
Marc:Well, for me, if you want to know, I'll tell you.
Marc:What I have gleaned from my relative obscurity and my desire to continue to go on stage was that I never saw it as a career.
Marc:I never saw it as I just wanted to be a good comic.
Marc:But as I continue to do what I do, I had to transition from, you know,
Marc:interacting with the audience and defying them to like me, to develop that parental relationship.
Marc:And then I realized that all I really wanted was a point of view, and I wanted to be seen.
Marc:I think when we talk about our mothers, that their needs overshadowed our identity.
Marc:So I think there's some part of me that the only reason I'm up there is to be present and to have my space and to be reckoned with.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So what I would say to that is it's fantastic.
Guest:And probably in your private life, then work on some of that need that you feel from your mother and not expect the audience to give that to you so they don't feel quite under the pressure that I understand that demands, man.
Marc:I thought you were going to say that I am right now.
Guest:No, you're
Guest:You know, no.
Guest:But what I mean is... Yeah.
Marc:No, I know.
Guest:As that gets fulfilled and somehow partly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Partly.
Guest:I mean, everyone has... You need some of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You got to give it to yourself, I guess.
Guest:But, you know, I think what you described is exactly what is right.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then once you get that out of the way, then you got to, you know, share your personal truth.
Marc:And that's all I want to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's all.
Guest:Everything you're saying is correct.
Marc:What do you do with people that don't really like your personal truth?
Guest:Well, you don't carry any gun?
Guest:No.
Guest:You have no weapons or anything?
Marc:Just my mouth.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:And I don't box.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That mouth can be a weapon, boy.
Marc:Yeah, it sure is.
Guest:It threatens a lot of people.
Marc:So you're going to the club tonight?
Guest:Yeah, I'm going to go to the club tonight.
Guest:I actually went on stage last night to about 30 people.
Guest:It was not a hot crowd, and I wasn't really in the mood, and it was frankly awkward.
Guest:And I've had other times all last week that were fantastic, and I thought something's really starting to form.
Guest:And last night I hit a little bump, so it sort of never stops.
Marc:What did you feel today?
Guest:Well, last night I actually...
Guest:I don't think I can – your audience can't see this.
Guest:I had my hands in my front pockets of my jeans like this, which I never do, never do.
Guest:And I was pushing down on the pockets, and I said, oh, my God, I'm leaning on my pants.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a bad sign.
Guest:And I realize it.
Guest:And, I mean, it's a bad sign.
Guest:There was some reason I just didn't want to be there.
Guest:And, you know, there are nights that you don't want to be there.
Guest:And so since I'm there, just as a walk-on, I'm not advertised, so I sneak in so I can try some stuff.
Guest:And I wasn't in the mood really to be honest with you.
Guest:It's like people don't know, like –
Guest:I mean, even I don't know that I've experienced things that I do now because I have a choice whether to go on stage.
Guest:And then I don't have to do the material that ends the show and is what they're paying for.
Guest:I just really didn't feel like communicating.
Guest:I did not want to really talk.
Guest:And then they weren't bringing it out of me, which is not their job.
Guest:And it was a fascinating...
Guest:Sort of awkward, long-distance phone call.
Marc:How are those silences?
Guest:Well, I said to them, I said, this is great.
Guest:Usually it takes me 20 minutes to get an audience to be quiet like this.
Guest:But here we are in the first minute.
Guest:I said, doesn't this feel great?
Guest:This is where love is.
Guest:And since they were already quiet, they actually didn't know how to get quieter.
Guest:But you could feel them trying.
Guest:They were about to get under the table.
Guest:This is where love is.
Marc:Like one of those old nuclear bomb blast things.
Marc:Love is under the table.
Guest:Duck and tuck and tumble, whatever the old gay expression was.
Marc:Who were the guys that made you realize you could do it?
Guest:Well, I mean, Carlin deserves all the credit for reading my material when I was 19.
Guest:I walked up into him in a club, and make it short, I walked into a club in Phoenix, and he was there, and I had written some material in his style for him, basically, but knowing he wrote his own stuff, for some reason I knew that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just asked him if he would read it and tell me what he thought.
Guest:This would have been way back when I was a first year of college.
Guest:And he said, yeah, come back tomorrow night.
Guest:I went back, and he had read it.
Guest:And it was really shocking.
Guest:There was my material sitting in his dressing room on a little table, and he said, I read it, and there's something funny on every page, and it's very green.
Guest:But if you're thinking of pursuing it, I would.
Guest:And I think that's what really made me go forward, I think.
Guest:I think that's really what made me go forward because I moved from Tucson then to L.A.
Marc:after I graduated from U of A. And who were the guys when you were a kid that made you?
Guest:There was a lot.
Guest:Woody Allen was that, Woody Allen.
Marc:Did you ever get to work with him?
Guest:No, sorry, that's when I put my hand in my pants, that's what it sounds like.
Guest:No, I'm tongue-tied every time I meet him, but I did a benefit in New York just a few years ago, and he was in the audience.
Guest:And I got to say hello to him.
Guest:And to his face, I said... He had just presented something at this benefit where he actually did five minutes of stand-up, which is so rare to see Woody do... Yeah, any of it, yeah.
Guest:...actual stand-up.
Guest:And I went up to him afterwards in the break, and I said, Oh, my God, to see you do stand-up was so fantastic.
Guest:I...
Guest:I beg of you to stop playing the clarinet or something like that.
Marc:He plays the clarinet every Monday.
Guest:And he laughed.
Guest:I beg you.
Guest:I beg you, stop playing the clarinet, which is his favorite thing.
Marc:And that was the weird thing when he showed up on the Oscars a couple years ago.
Marc:You know, he did that 10 minutes.
Guest:I'll tell you something, Mark.
Guest:Sorry, he walked out on the Oscars.
Guest:And I am telling you, I don't remember.
Guest:I was sitting with a bunch of people.
Guest:I don't remember how to do as I'm saying it.
Guest:There were a bunch of people in the room.
Guest:I watched him walk on stage.
Guest:He was five strides into his walk to the microphone.
Guest:I said, oh my God, he's going to do stand-up.
Guest:I still don't know how I saw it coming.
Marc:It was almost like frozen in time.
Marc:It was mystifying.
Marc:It was amazing.
Marc:I couldn't fucking believe what I was watching.
Marc:Me too.
Guest:I mean, he's a master that people just don't see.
Guest:There you go.
Marc:That's true.
Guest:There is a guy you'd like to see do stand-up just because you love it, and he resists it.
Guest:How long ago was it?
Guest:Six years ago or something?
Marc:Was it that long already?
Marc:Five.
Marc:Holy shit.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I lose track.
Marc:I do, too.
Guest:They say time doesn't exist.
Marc:How's that going?
Guest:Well, then I don't know what I'm wasting.
Yeah.
Guest:I'm totally confused.
Guest:I know I'm wasting something, Mark.
Marc:Well, this hasn't been a waste of time.
Marc:This has been great.
Guest:No, I mean, I don't know how people will feel listening to it, but I certainly have enjoyed talking to you.
Marc:I was nervous about it.
Guest:I don't know why now.
Guest:Why would that be?
Guest:because i have a lot of respect for you and uh you know you did a lot of great things yeah and uh you know i didn't want to make it all about me and it was touch and go there for a little while i love the interviews you do though where they are about you i listened to all of them i i didn't listen to all of them they probably all are but the few that i listened to i i got such a kick out of it because i wish i could remember you were talking to conan o'brien yeah like uh
Guest:Well, Conan, you remember when I did the show?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you hear Conan go, uh-huh.
Guest:And then I, and then I, and then I, and I say that with love, Mark.
Marc:Yeah, no, I know.
Guest:Because I totally relate to it.
Guest:I actually listened to that, and then I went, man, there have been a lot of times where I've talked about myself and just, I think, you know, wish I hadn't.
Guest:But I think it's a cool way to do this show.
Guest:I'm happy to talk about you.
Marc:Do you feel good about it?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Well, thanks for coming, Gary.
Guest:It's always a pleasure coming into this part of Tom.
Guest:Pleasure a lot.
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:This was the theme to Gary Shandling Show.
Guest:This was the theme to Gary Shandling Show.