Ed Asner from 2015

00:03:50Guest:And I thought, being the father of an autistic son and grandfather of an autistic grandson, I committed two of the most cardinal sins you could with an autistic person.

00:04:07Guest:Getting too close, overwhelming them with your bulk,

00:04:11Marc:And talking too loudly.

00:04:13Marc:See, but your first impulse was to be funny.

00:04:16Marc:Yeah.

00:04:17Marc:Yeah.

00:04:17Marc:And then you learned your lesson right after.

00:04:19Marc:Yeah, I played the schmuck last night.

00:04:24Marc:For some reason, I don't feel like that was the first time.

00:04:26Marc:Uh-huh.

00:04:28Guest:Uh-huh.

00:04:31Marc:Am I wrong?

00:04:33Guest:I mean, sometimes comedy- No, when I worked with you on your pilot, that was his- There you go.

00:04:37Marc:I got it back.

00:04:39Marc:He turned it around.

00:04:40Marc:No, but I mean, as a funny person, sometimes, I mean, sometimes you don't realize it when you go through the first impulse.

00:04:47Marc:And then it's just sort of like, oh, shit.

00:04:49Guest:But when you're known as a clown in certain aspects-

00:04:53Guest:People tend to forgive you much more than if you weren't regarded as a clown.

00:04:59Marc:Right.

00:04:59Marc:Did Temple Grandin forgive you?

00:05:01Marc:Yes.

00:05:02Marc:Oh, good.

00:05:04Guest:I don't know.

00:05:05Guest:She could be harboring the greatest resentment in the world to me today.

00:05:08Guest:After the wince, did she laugh at least?

00:05:10Guest:Nah, no.

00:05:11Guest:She doesn't laugh easily.

00:05:13Marc:Yeah, she's fairly serious, I guess.

00:05:16Marc:So, like...

00:05:17Marc:Well, how far back do your memories go?

00:05:19Marc:You remember FDR.

00:05:20Marc:Well, yeah, I remember.

00:05:21Marc:I idolized him.

00:05:22Marc:When you were a kid.

00:05:23Marc:Yeah, he died when I was a sophomore in high school.

00:05:25Marc:But, like, your generation, my sense of it is that this guy was a guy that really wanted to help people.

00:05:34Marc:I think so.

00:05:36Marc:And that doesn't happen.

00:05:36Guest:And I think he learned along the way.

00:05:39Guest:I don't know that he launched into national prominence now.

00:05:44Guest:He saw the problems affecting the nation, and everyone else saw the problems, but certainly didn't think that they could employ the methods he did, which was socialistic, which the American people don't understand.

00:05:58Guest:They don't even know how to spell it.

00:06:00Marc:Right.

00:06:00Marc:Well, they know the word bothers them for reasons that are not clear to them.

00:06:04Marc:They get it confused with communism.

00:06:06Marc:Yes.

00:06:07Marc:They really do.

00:06:07Marc:So where were you at that time?

00:06:09Marc:Did you grow up in a socialist background as a Jewish guy?

00:06:13Marc:My father was a junkman.

00:06:15Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:06:16Marc:Where?

00:06:17Marc:Kansas City, Kansas.

00:06:19Marc:How'd you end up in Kansas City, Kansas?

00:06:21Marc:Why don't you ask him?

00:06:23Marc:He probably told you.

00:06:24Marc:I'm a Jew.

00:06:25Marc:I grew up in New Mexico.

00:06:26Marc:People were like, when did that happen?

00:06:28Marc:How did you get there?

00:06:29Marc:Well, there were ancient Jews there with the conquistadores.

00:06:33Marc:Sure.

00:06:33Marc:Oh, from the Inquisition.

00:06:36Marc:Yeah, the conversos.

00:06:38Marc:Yeah.

00:06:38Marc:That they didn't realize they were Jewish.

00:06:40Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:06:41Marc:It's a hell of a story.

00:06:42Marc:They got Morgan Davids on their tombstones.

00:06:46Marc:Right, right.

00:06:47Marc:Yeah, they light candles on Friday night.

00:06:49Marc:Right.

00:06:50Marc:But they didn't know they were Jewish.

00:06:51Marc:They thought they were some weird part of the Catholic Church.

00:06:54Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:06:55Marc:It's a beautiful story.

00:06:56Marc:It is.

00:06:57Marc:It is.

00:06:57Marc:But you don't know how your dad ended up there?

00:06:59Marc:Was he first generation, obviously?

00:07:01Marc:Well, no.

00:07:01Marc:I think he ended up there like anybody ended up there.

00:07:05Guest:He worked a year in the sweatshops in Boston.

00:07:09Guest:After he immigrated?

00:07:11Guest:Yeah.

00:07:12Guest:And my mother was starting to get ripe.

00:07:16Guest:And my dad came courting, and he wooed and won her.

00:07:23Marc:Yeah?

00:07:24Marc:And how many kids in the family?

00:07:25Marc:Five.

00:07:26Marc:There's five of you.

00:07:28Marc:How many are around?

00:07:30Marc:I got a brother alive.

00:07:32Marc:Uh-huh.

00:07:33Marc:He's six years older.

00:07:35Marc:Oh, wow.

00:07:35Marc:How old are you today?

00:07:36Marc:85.

00:07:37Marc:Pretty good.

00:07:38Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:07:40Marc:Watch me leap this table.

00:07:41Marc:Yeah.

00:07:43Marc:Oh, my God, you made it.

00:07:45Marc:I'm sorry I broke your floor.

00:07:46Marc:That's okay.

00:07:47Marc:It was worth it.

00:07:48Marc:So when did you, how religious was the household?

00:07:51Marc:Very orthodox.

00:07:53Marc:So you wore a yarmulke?

00:07:54Guest:I caught, no, hell no.

00:07:56Guest:I call it Midwestern Orthodox.

00:07:58Guest:Yeah.

00:07:58Guest:Because my dad didn't walk to shul.

00:08:00Guest:Right.

00:08:01Guest:He drove.

00:08:02Guest:Right.

00:08:03Guest:But he didn't smoke on Shabbos.

00:08:06Guest:And we had a kosher house.

00:08:09Guest:You did?

00:08:10Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:08:11Guest:Two pans, two plates, two sinks?

00:08:13Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:08:13Marc:All that?

00:08:14Guest:Not two sinks.

00:08:15Guest:No, no, we didn't have two sinks.

00:08:17Marc:But separate plates.

00:08:19Marc:Separate plates.

00:08:19Marc:Seemed like a big hassle after a certain point to keep a kosher home.

00:08:24Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:08:26Guest:But it's, you know, how nice to have all the rigidity so that you got something to break away from.

00:08:32Marc:Yeah, I guess that's one way to look at it.

00:08:36Marc:And what were you doing when you were a kid?

00:08:39Marc:Did you do jobs before you...

00:08:41Marc:I delivered for a, I got my Schwinn bike.

00:08:44Guest:Yeah.

00:08:45Guest:My first job was delivering for a drugstore.

00:08:48Guest:Yeah.

00:08:48Guest:That was up a long goddamn hill.

00:08:50Guest:And a Schwinn was not a fleet bike.

00:08:57Guest:Sure.

00:08:57Guest:So I was given an order to deliver a whole bag full of, like a newspaper bag.

00:09:05Guest:Yeah.

00:09:05Guest:Of beer.

00:09:06Guest:Yeah.

00:09:07Guest:This drugstore sold beer.

00:09:09Guest:Uh-huh.

00:09:09Guest:So I peddled down the hill to this house, and they gave me a bunch of empties to bring back, which I had to pump up the hill.

00:09:25Guest:Not anticipating.

00:09:26Guest:No.

00:09:27Guest:And I said, my, you know, I thought it's strange that there are closer drugstores.

00:09:34Guest:How come you didn't deal with them?

00:09:37Guest:When I got back after puffing up that hill, the long hill...

00:09:43Guest:Three assistant managers were waiting for me in their white coats.

00:09:48Guest:I said, what the hell did you say to that person?

00:09:52Guest:I said, I just said, there are closer drugstores.

00:09:58Guest:Don't ever do that again.

00:09:59Guest:I don't know how much longer I lasted at that drugstore, but it wasn't long.

00:10:04Guest:Being honest, they screwed the business up.

00:10:07Marc:Make me sweat my ass off going up that hill.

00:10:10Marc:And when did you decide to be an actor?

00:10:15Guest:After I tried out for and got the lead, ended up with the lead, in T.S.

00:10:23Guest:Eliot's Murder in a Cathedral in the summer production of the University of Chicago.

00:10:27Marc:So you went to University of Chicago.

00:10:29Marc:What were you studying in?

00:10:31Guest:Revolution.

00:10:33Marc:You were ready to start.

00:10:34Marc:You were ready to lead.

00:10:35Guest:No, I came in there.

00:10:37Guest:I had a vague idea of political science.

00:10:41Guest:I knew they were good for political science.

00:10:44Marc:Archaeology, political science.

00:10:46Marc:But weren't they on the... Wasn't their political science department later not the good guys?

00:10:52Marc:They were not the good guys.

00:10:54Guest:Not the good guys.

00:10:55Guest:Who was it?

00:10:56Guest:George Shultz was there.

00:10:58Marc:Well, was... Right.

00:11:00Marc:Who was he?

00:11:00Marc:Scalia came out of there, too, I think.

00:11:03Marc:Right.

00:11:03Marc:And, well, Milton Friedman, maybe?

00:11:05Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:11:06Marc:And who was the other... The architect of the badness?

00:11:11Marc:Strauss!

00:11:12Marc:Oh, I studied.

00:11:15Marc:Leo Strauss?

00:11:16Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:11:17Guest:Right.

00:11:18Guest:I took social science three.

00:11:21Guest:With him.

00:11:21Guest:Which was mostly economics.

00:11:23Guest:I didn't pay attention one goddamn day.

00:11:25Guest:That's probably good.

00:11:26Guest:Yeah.

00:11:28Guest:And that's when I auditioned for the play and got the lead.

00:11:32Guest:So it really didn't matter to me.

00:11:35Marc:Uh-huh.

00:11:35Marc:And that was the first time he'd ever acted.

00:11:38Guest:Well, other than synagogue plays and a little plays in school.

00:11:42Marc:Did you do Jewish theater?

00:11:44Marc:Did you do Hebrew plays?

00:11:46Guest:Well, yeah.

00:11:46Guest:I was Haman.

00:11:48Marc:I was Mordecai.

00:11:49Marc:I was all those.

00:11:50Marc:So you were always a ham.

00:11:52Marc:Yeah.

00:11:54Marc:And this was the first big production.

00:11:56Marc:And you were working, what was it?

00:11:58Marc:I guess it wasn't the...

00:12:00Guest:the theater school but it was the theater the troupe right they did yeah they they were all extracurricular right they didn't have a theater department and that was what planted the seed where you were like this is it well i'd done radio in high school and loved it but guys they thought you know it was kansas city bourgeois yeah you don't make a living in radio how do you make a living in radio

00:12:21Marc:Right.

00:12:22Marc:Well, I'm certainly the parents were probably like, what are you thinking?

00:12:25Guest:No, I wasn't thinking.

00:12:28Guest:So they started a radio station at the dormitory in Chicago.

00:12:32Guest:Yeah.

00:12:33Guest:Decided to try out for that.

00:12:35Guest:I talked to my effete roommate who was from Newark.

00:12:39Guest:Uh-huh.

00:12:40Guest:And I said, I did radio in high school.

00:12:42Guest:Should I try out for this?

00:12:44Guest:And he said, well, I don't know.

00:12:45Guest:Let me hear you read.

00:12:47Yeah.

00:12:47Guest:So they had given me the Song of Songs, beautiful Valenti Press of the Song of Songs, he and my other roommate, because they considered me a jock and they thought they'd give me something contrapuntal.

00:13:02Marc:It's kind of almost a love poem.

00:13:05Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:13:07Guest:It's beautiful, beautiful stuff.

00:13:10Guest:So he said, let me hear you read.

00:13:11Guest:I stood at one end of the room and I read to him.

00:13:14Guest:And, of course, they thought I was a jock from Kansas.

00:13:17Guest:So they expected to hear a cowboy read.

00:13:20Guest:And after I finished, he said, where did you learn to read like that?

00:13:23Guest:And I shrugged.

00:13:25Guest:So after that, when he came home one day and he said, they're going to do Word in the Cathedral as a summer production.

00:13:36Guest:Check the book out, read it, read it.

00:13:38Guest:You can do any of the roles in it.

00:13:40Marc:And I ended up doing Thomas.

00:13:42Marc:Were you a jock?

00:13:44Marc:I played football, you know.

00:13:46Marc:So you were a burly guy.

00:13:47Marc:You were like a... 180, I weighed 180.

00:13:50Marc:Yeah.

00:13:50Marc:So did you finish college?

00:13:53Marc:No, I dropped off because I became an actor.

00:13:55Marc:Oh, really?

00:13:56Marc:That was it?

00:13:56Marc:How old were you?

00:13:57Marc:19?

00:13:58Marc:19.

00:13:59Marc:And where'd you go after that?

00:14:00Marc:Where'd you go first?

00:14:01Marc:Oh,

00:14:01Guest:Well, my funds were withdrawn because I'd started an affair with the lady in the chorus at the same time.

00:14:08Guest:So between getting sex and getting beautiful acting roles, I couldn't pay attention to Leo Strauss, could I?

00:14:16Guest:No?

00:14:17Guest:And your father said, fuck this?

00:14:19Guest:No, no more school.

00:14:21Right.

00:14:21Guest:So I came home and I had a couple of jobs, shitty jobs.

00:14:26Guest:And finally, friends were working on the assembly line at the Buick Osmobile Pontiac plant in Kansas City.

00:14:36Marc:Yeah.

00:14:36Guest:I got a job down there as a polisher buffer.

00:14:39Marc:With the machine?

00:14:41Marc:Yeah.

00:14:43Guest:And it was an open shop plant.

00:14:47Guest:And the conditions were brutal, especially for somebody who'd never really worked before.

00:14:52Marc:Had to wear a mask?

00:14:53Guest:No, no, I didn't wear a mask, but you're covered in schmutz.

00:14:57Guest:Yeah.

00:14:58Guest:So I had a Uriah Heep foreman who would like to pick on me.

00:15:04Guest:Finally, he traded me off to another foreman, and I got along all right with him.

00:15:10Guest:I spent six months there.

00:15:12Guest:And in the meantime, friends were coming from Chicago to say, go back to Chicago and they want you to do Brutus and Julius Caesar.

00:15:21Marc:Really?

00:15:21Marc:Yeah.

00:15:23Marc:Someone just came to you from Chicago and said, we need you to be Brutus.

00:15:28Marc:I went back trying to give false pledges that the affair with the girl was over with.

00:15:34Marc:To who?

00:15:35Marc:My folks.

00:15:36Marc:Oh.

00:15:36Marc:What were they meant?

00:15:38Marc:What, she wasn't Jewish?

00:15:38Marc:What was the problem?

00:15:40Guest:She wasn't Jewish, yeah.

00:15:41Marc:And that was the problem?

00:15:42Marc:Yeah.

00:15:42Marc:Remember the old days?

00:15:44Marc:Kinda.

00:15:45Guest:Yeah.

00:15:45Guest:So I went back and I did Brutus and became more disenchanted with her than I thought I had been.

00:15:53Guest:And stayed on in Chicago and did all kinds of jobs there.

00:15:56Guest:I sold over the phone.

00:15:58Guest:I sold shoes.

00:16:00Marc:But you were acting still.

00:16:02Guest:Whenever I could at the university.

00:16:04Marc:But you weren't enrolled anymore?

00:16:06Marc:No.

00:16:07Marc:You were just doing plays?

00:16:08Marc:Yeah, you could do that.

00:16:09Marc:You could?

00:16:10Guest:Yeah, and my last production for the regular theater, which was Antigone... God, you were doing heavy shit.

00:16:18Guest:Susan Sontag was his many.

00:16:21Guest:Really?

00:16:21Guest:Yeah.

00:16:22Guest:She had two lines, I think.

00:16:24Guest:She went a different direction.

00:16:25Guest:Didn't she?

00:16:26Guest:Yeah.

00:16:27Guest:I guess you could say I fucked up.

00:16:30Guest:How?

00:16:30Guest:As Crayon in...

00:16:33Guest:Antigone.

00:16:35Guest:And it opened on a Friday night.

00:16:39Guest:Then we had a Saturday and a matinee and a Saturday night.

00:16:45Guest:So just before the matinee on Saturday, the director of the university theater comes down into the dressing room and he says, he wanted to meet with us.

00:16:59Mm-hmm.

00:16:59Guest:And he turns to each one of them and he says, you stunk this way, you stunk that way, you stunk this way, you stunk that way.

00:17:07Guest:And then he said, all because of him pointing at me.

00:17:12Guest:I evidently had shouted my way through the play.

00:17:16Guest:I'll admit that's possible.

00:17:19Guest:But that I forced everybody else to shout in turn and ruin the play.

00:17:25Guest:So I pulled myself back for the Saturday night and the Sunday performance.

00:17:31Guest:And I was then exiled from that particular group.

00:17:36Guest:Then another rebel group was forming from exiles and those who didn't like that director.

00:17:42Marc:A rebel theater group.

00:17:44Guest:Yes.

00:17:45Guest:To perform in Ida Noyes Hall.

00:17:47Guest:And my first play was Man of Destiny, George Bernard Shaw.

00:17:55Guest:And they were going to do Androcles and the Lion.

00:18:00Uh-huh.

00:18:00Guest:And Mike Nichols was going to be Caesar.

00:18:05Guest:So they needed a little curtain raiser for Androcles.

00:18:08Guest:Yeah.

00:18:09Guest:So they decided to do a 15-minute playlet by William Butler Yeats called Purgatory.

00:18:16Guest:Yeah.

00:18:17Guest:And I played the old man in that, and Mike Nichols directed it.

00:18:21Marc:So that was his first time directing?

00:18:23Marc:Yeah, I think so.

00:18:23Marc:And you were it?

00:18:24Marc:I was it.

00:18:26Marc:And did you guys remain friends?

00:18:28Marc:We were never really...

00:18:29Marc:We were acquaintances.

00:18:32Marc:He was in the Compass Players, right?

00:18:34Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:18:35Marc:And he was there at the beginning of that.

00:18:36Marc:Were you there?

00:18:36Marc:Of course.

00:18:38Marc:Was that the renegade theater group that formed?

00:18:43Guest:Well, out of that, Paul Sills was a member of that renegade group.

00:18:50Guest:Uh-huh.

00:18:51Guest:And while I was in France, stationed in France during the Korean War, a couple of weeks before I mustered out home, I got a letter from Paul Sills saying, listen, we're going to start a theater here.

00:19:06Guest:We're going to do classics and new plays.

00:19:10Guest:Come join us.

00:19:12Guest:And my life fell into place.

00:19:14Marc:And what was that called?

00:19:16Marc:Playwrights Theater Club.

00:19:18Marc:In Chicago.

00:19:19Marc:How long were you in the service?

00:19:21Marc:Two years.

00:19:22Marc:Did you see action?

00:19:24Marc:Not in France.

00:19:25Marc:Yeah.

00:19:26Marc:I saw a different kind of action.

00:19:32Guest:Did you learn how to speak French?

00:19:34Guest:Enough.

00:19:39Guest:Would you take me for the food?

00:19:41Guest:so you go back and you're in you're doing plays with these guys how how long were you there for with them two years okay so you did two years and then then what happens you're like i'm going to where well i got great reviews paul was starting compass then right with david shepherd his partner at playwrights and i i didn't feel a nice jewish boy would be doing improv and

00:20:05Guest:So I decided to take my great rave reviews.

00:20:09Marc:As an actor?

00:20:10Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:20:11Marc:So they were going for improv theater.

00:20:13Marc:That's what the Compass Players were.

00:20:14Marc:People's Theater, they wanted.

00:20:16Marc:So it wasn't comedy necessarily.

00:20:19Marc:Yeah, it did too.

00:20:20Marc:Well, Mike and Elaine came out of there.

00:20:21Marc:And Shelly Berman was there too.

00:20:23Marc:Shelly Berman.

00:20:24Marc:Yeah.

00:20:24Marc:Mike and Elaine.

00:20:25Marc:Shelly Berman, Barbara Harris.

00:20:28Marc:But not Ed Asner.

00:20:29No, no.

00:20:30Guest:I later, when they came to California as Second City to do their first performance in California, because I was such an old acquaintance, I worked out with them and had a lot of fun.

00:20:47Guest:And then when they had their 25th anniversary, they invited me to participate.

00:20:52Guest:Do you like doing improv?

00:20:53Guest:Yeah.

00:20:54Marc:It's fun, right?

00:20:55Guest:We're doing it now, aren't we?

00:20:56Marc:Yeah.

00:20:57Marc:I'd like to think I am.

00:20:59Marc:I'm on it.

00:21:00Marc:So where'd you go after Chicago?

00:21:03Guest:Well, I went to New York.

00:21:04Guest:I ran off to show my reviews to the producers and agents of New York.

00:21:09Guest:How'd that go?

00:21:11Guest:Not well.

00:21:14Guest:They didn't say Broadway is yours.

00:21:18Guest:Well, I went to see Carmen Capalbo and Stanley Chase.

00:21:22Guest:We had done a pirated version of Three Penny Opera.

00:21:25Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:21:25Guest:So I was supposed to understudy the police chief.

00:21:28Guest:Yeah.

00:21:29Guest:And then Leon announced that he was going to leave for a Broadway touring company.

00:21:36Guest:And I thought, oh, shit.

00:21:38Guest:Right.

00:21:39Guest:I said, well, we were friendly.

00:21:42Guest:He said, well, that's my role, because...

00:21:46Guest:Peacham was my role.

00:21:47Guest:And he said, I'll give my notice a week earlier and recommend them that they try you out for Peacham.

00:21:57Guest:So he did that.

00:21:57Guest:I auditioned for it for the guys.

00:21:59Guest:And they brought me in as Peacham.

00:22:02Guest:And I did it for about two and a half years.

00:22:04Marc:And where was that?

00:22:06Marc:Is it on Broadway?

00:22:07Marc:Theater at least.

00:22:08Marc:Yeah?

00:22:09Marc:Yeah, the Lortel Theater.

00:22:10Marc:So that was spectacular, right?

00:22:14Marc:Was I?

00:22:15Marc:Yeah.

00:22:15Marc:I think so.

00:22:16Marc:And it got you in?

00:22:19Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:22:19Marc:You established yourself?

00:22:21Marc:I was making $65 a week.

00:22:24Marc:That ain't nothing.

00:22:24Guest:Every goddamn week.

00:22:26Guest:Yeah?

00:22:27Guest:Yeah.

00:22:27Guest:How'd your parents feel about that?

00:22:30Guest:They didn't make any comments.

00:22:32Guest:They knew I was supporting myself, though.

00:22:34Guest:That's all that counted.

00:22:35Marc:Yeah.

00:22:36Marc:And when did you start doing television?

00:22:40Guest:I was doing television.

00:22:41Guest:You could do television if you gave them sufficient notice.

00:22:44Marc:So you're doing some television in New York?

00:22:46Marc:Working my way up in television.

00:22:48Marc:Live television, probably.

00:22:49Yeah.

00:22:49Guest:Well, it was the Sunday morning shows, Camera 3, Lamp Unto My Feet.

00:22:54Guest:What would you do?

00:22:56Marc:Classics, classics.

00:22:58Marc:Really?

00:22:58Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:22:59Marc:So you were doing Shakespeare and Greeks on television?

00:23:04Marc:Yeah.

00:23:05Marc:Live?

00:23:06Marc:On Sunday morning.

00:23:08Marc:That's incredible.

00:23:09Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:23:09Marc:Does that footage exist?

00:23:12Marc:Hold on, I'll go look.

00:23:13Marc:All right.

00:23:15Marc:But when did you start to, so what were the rungs of the liner?

00:23:18Guest:Well, my first camera three was a compilation of Elizabethan poetry, et cetera.

00:23:30Guest:And Jackie Brooks and I were playing the old lovers.

00:23:34Guest:And a girl named Sharon Follett and George Pappard were playing the young lovers.

00:23:40Guest:George Pappard.

00:23:41Guest:Banachek.

00:23:42Yeah.

00:23:44Marc:So that was my first show on Sunday morning.

00:23:48Marc:And when did you start sort of defining yourself in roles that you felt were a little more contemporary?

00:23:56Marc:Because, I mean, you're a monumental figure in television.

00:24:03Marc:But, like, you're very specifically you.

00:24:04Marc:And I have to assume that in the classics, I mean, I'm sure you're amazing at it, but at some point you started to chisel away a little more...

00:24:14Guest:My first big, big opening was with Burt Leonard and Marion Doherty with Route 66.

00:24:22Guest:Okay.

00:24:22Guest:They hired me to do a Route 66 in Grand Isle, Louisiana, where Bruce Dern and I played Israeli secret agents.

00:24:31Guest:Bruce Dern?

00:24:31Guest:Yeah.

00:24:33Guest:And we were there because we had gotten word that there was a suspect Nazi working on one of the oil crews.

00:24:39Guest:Interesting.

00:24:40Guest:Yeah.

00:24:41Wow.

00:24:41Guest:Well, we came down and we investigated and found out.

00:24:45Guest:And Lou Ayers was the suspected Nazi.

00:24:49Guest:And we investigated and found out that it wasn't him.

00:24:52Guest:It was somebody else in the crew.

00:24:54Guest:So I spent three days in Grand Isle and insufferable heat and mosquitoes.

00:25:01Marc:And that started me with Marian Doherty and Burt Leonard.

00:25:05Marc:You were all just young actors at some point, cutting your teeth.

00:25:09Marc:Was Dern intense then?

00:25:11Marc:Well, he was wild and crazy.

00:25:12Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:25:13Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:25:15Marc:So, you move out here when?

00:25:17Marc:What's 1960 what?

00:25:19Marc:Two?

00:25:19Marc:One.

00:25:20Marc:One?

00:25:20Marc:And you've been here ever since?

00:25:22Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:25:22Marc:But you do a lot of television.

00:25:24Yeah.

00:25:24Marc:Well, I have, yeah.

00:25:26Marc:I mean, from the beginning, because most people know you from Mary Tyler Moore, but you were doing Episodics.

00:25:31Marc:You did The Untouchables.

00:25:33Marc:Gunsmoke.

00:25:34Marc:Alfred Hitchcock.

00:25:35Marc:Alfred Hitchcock, a couple of times.

00:25:37Marc:Dr. Kildare.

00:25:38Marc:Dr. Kildare.

00:25:39Marc:That's before I was born.

00:25:40Marc:Yeah.

00:25:41Marc:Outer limits.

00:25:42Marc:Outer limits.

00:25:43Marc:But you're working a lot.

00:25:46Marc:You're a working actor.

00:25:47Marc:You're in the union.

00:25:48Marc:Things are going good.

00:25:50Marc:And at that time, did you want to break into movies?

00:25:55Marc:Was that the plan?

00:25:57Marc:Yeah.

00:25:57Marc:You showed me the door.

00:25:59Marc:Yeah.

00:26:00Marc:How did that work?

00:26:01Marc:I mean, it took a while for you to get into movies?

00:26:03Yeah.

00:26:03Guest:Well, I did an early movie, which Jeff Bridges, I think it was Jeff Bridges, was the star.

00:26:11Guest:Calvin Lockhart was the star.

00:26:15Guest:That didn't go anywhere.

00:26:16Guest:I played a high school math teacher or something.

00:26:20Guest:I don't know.

00:26:21Guest:And then in 65, Howard Hawks hired me for El Dorado.

00:26:32Guest:Yeah.

00:26:34Guest:And I went to Tucson and had a marvelous time with...

00:26:40Guest:Taking my family there, and I discovered Tucson.

00:26:43Guest:I discovered John Wayne and Robert Mitchum.

00:26:50Marc:You guys were hanging out?

00:26:52Marc:No, Mitchum and I did some.

00:26:55Marc:Not Wayne, no.

00:26:56Marc:How was Mitchum as a guy?

00:26:58Marc:He was a wild.

00:26:59Marc:Another one?

00:26:59Marc:Another wild man?

00:27:00Marc:Black-hearted creature.

00:27:03Marc:He wanted more than anything to be a writer.

00:27:07Marc:Really?

00:27:07Yeah.

00:27:08Marc:And he was just stuck being a movie star.

00:27:10Marc:Yeah, I tell you.

00:27:11Marc:Tough, tough break.

00:27:12Marc:Too bad, man.

00:27:13Marc:Yeah, right?

00:27:14Marc:But Howard Hawks, was that an amazing day to be working with that guy?

00:27:18Guest:Yeah, he was lovely.

00:27:19Marc:Yeah.

00:27:20Marc:Yeah.

00:27:21Marc:So, all through this, but I guess what's amazing, and I don't think that people really realize all the time, is just that when you work as an actor, when, I mean, you really worked.

00:27:32Marc:You were, like, it seems like every, you must have been working every month, every week.

00:27:36Marc:Yeah.

00:27:36Marc:Well, that's the thing that killed me.

00:27:38Guest:We arrived in L.A.

00:27:42Guest:on Memorial Day of 61.

00:27:45Guest:And I then proceeded to get jobs from my agent I was lucky to have, Jack Fields.

00:27:52Guest:And in that seven months...

00:27:56Guest:I made more money than I'd ever made any year in New York.

00:28:02Guest:Yeah.

00:28:02Guest:The six years I spent in New York.

00:28:05Guest:So I felt we were blessed.

00:28:06Guest:And then by 62, we moved into a house.

00:28:11Marc:This is with your first wife.

00:28:13Marc:Yeah.

00:28:13Marc:How many kids did you have?

00:28:15Marc:Three.

00:28:15Marc:Yeah.

00:28:15Yeah.

00:28:16Marc:And you moved into a house.

00:28:18Marc:And I guess you were a type.

00:28:21Marc:You were the Ed Asner type.

00:28:23Marc:People wanted you.

00:28:24Marc:Yeah, I suppose so.

00:28:25Marc:How old were you when Mary Tyler Moore happened?

00:28:29Marc:That was 70, I think.

00:28:33Marc:And how did that come about?

00:28:34Marc:I would have been 41.

00:28:36Marc:How old, 41?

00:28:37Marc:I think so, yeah.

00:28:38Marc:And you'd already had a whole life of fucking acting already.

00:28:41Marc:Yeah.

00:28:43Marc:It's all these shows that I remember from when I was a kid.

00:28:46Marc:Mission Impossible, Ironside.

00:28:48Marc:It's crazy, man.

00:28:50Marc:Why is it crazy?

00:28:51Marc:The Mod Squad.

00:28:52Marc:Because if someone was to show me...

00:28:55Marc:a reel of your small parts, you know, leading up to, it would be fascinating to me because like a lot of times we didn't have the opportunity, I would not have had the opportunity to retroactively look at your career.

00:29:08Marc:Like, you know, a lot of times, you know, it's like, there he is, that's Mr. Grant.

00:29:12Marc:Yeah, but there's 20 years before that to look at all that work.

00:29:17Marc:Do you consider a lot of that work stuff you're proud of or are you just working?

00:29:21Guest:I don't like to denigrate.

00:29:25Guest:I don't like to think in terms of take the money and run.

00:29:28Guest:Right.

00:29:30Guest:I like to make something out of whatever I do.

00:29:32Guest:Right, sure.

00:29:34Guest:And there were good roles in there.

00:29:35Guest:The Route 66 has always had promise.

00:29:38Guest:Yeah.

00:29:38Guest:I did a dilly of a one on my way out to California, but it was a good show.

00:29:43Marc:And you love doing it?

00:29:45Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:46Marc:So how'd you get the Mary Tyler Moore part?

00:29:48Marc:How did that evolve?

00:29:50Guest:Well, I guess they had been doing some checking on me.

00:29:54Guest:The producers asked Ethel Winan, who was vice president in charge of talent, can Ed Ashton do comedy?

00:30:04Guest:And she said, he can do anything.

00:30:06Guest:And she didn't know.

00:30:08Guest:I mean, the only thing I'd done for her was nothing.

00:30:11Guest:I garnished.

00:30:13Guest:And Grant Tinker was at 20th, and he touted me, too, the guys.

00:30:18Marc:Uh-huh.

00:30:18Marc:I came in and I read.

00:30:20Marc:So you were a known guy.

00:30:21Marc:You were a go-to guy as an actor.

00:30:23Marc:Yeah, I was one of them.

00:30:26Guest:And I read Lou for them.

00:30:28Guest:And at the end of it, Jim Brooks said, well, that's a very intelligent reading.

00:30:34Guest:And as dumb as I am, I said, yeah, yeah, very intelligent, but not funny.

00:30:40Guest:So he said, well, when we have you back to read with Mary, we want you to read it.

00:30:45Guest:Wiggy Wilde, Fallout, you know, crazy.

00:30:48Guest:I didn't know what the hell he was talking about.

00:30:50Marc:You didn't?

00:30:51Marc:No.

00:30:52Guest:So I said, okay, okay.

00:30:53Guest:I started to walk out, and I turned back to them.

00:30:55Guest:I said, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

00:30:59Guest:Why don't you let me try it that way now?

00:31:01Guest:And if I don't do it, don't have me back.

00:31:04Guest:They never heard anything like that before.

00:31:06Guest:Right.

00:31:07Guest:And I had never said anything like that before.

00:31:09Guest:Well, we have another appointment, but all right, go ahead.

00:31:12Guest:So I read it like a mishugger.

00:31:13Guest:Yeah.

00:31:14Guest:And they laughed.

00:31:16Guest:Yeah.

00:31:16Guest:They laughed.

00:31:17Guest:And at the end of it, they said, read it just like that with Mary.

00:31:21Guest:I came back a week or so later to read with Mary.

00:31:25Guest:And I kept saying, what did I do?

00:31:26Guest:What did I do?

00:31:27Guest:How did I do it?

00:31:28Guest:What did we do?

00:31:29Guest:Uh-huh.

00:31:30Guest:I started reading.

00:31:30Guest:I read it like my sugar nerd.

00:31:32Guest:And at the end, they laughed again.

00:31:36Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:31:38Guest:And said, thank you.

00:31:39Guest:We'll be talking to you.

00:31:42Guest:And when I left the room, Mary then turned to the boys and said, are you sure?

00:31:47Guest:And Jim Brooks said, that's your Lou Grant.

00:31:53Guest:Uh-huh.

00:31:54Marc:Are you sure?

00:31:55Marc:Jim Brooks, how old was he, 12?

00:31:57Marc:Probably.

00:31:58Yeah.

00:32:00Marc:And when you say Meshuggah, I mean, like, in my recollection of that work that you did, I mean, he was a big character, but not crazy.

00:32:09Guest:Well, you know, it's that bit about, you know what?

00:32:13Guest:You got spunk.

00:32:17Guest:She diddles the shit on the floor.

00:32:19Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:32:20Guest:I hate spunk.

00:32:22Guest:Yeah, right, right, right.

00:32:24Marc:So that was the wild and crazy part.

00:32:26Marc:So funny.

00:32:29Marc:Yeah.

00:32:29Marc:Like that was a funny moment just now.

00:32:31Marc:Yeah.

00:32:32Marc:Now, did you... I like spunk though.

00:32:35Marc:You do?

00:32:36Marc:Yeah.

00:32:36Marc:Were you a spunky guy?

00:32:38Marc:No, I'm not.

00:32:38Marc:Not at all?

00:32:39Guest:No, I took years to build it up.

00:32:41Marc:Oh, really?

00:32:42Marc:It was a learned thing, the spunk.

00:32:44Marc:It was...

00:32:45Marc:But did you grow to love, I have to assume that that set, because it was like one of those things my mother would watch and I would sit there at the foot of the bed watching that.

00:32:55Marc:It was such an amazing ensemble and was so important to so many people.

00:32:59Marc:Did you grow to love that show?

00:33:01Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:33:02Marc:Yeah?

00:33:03Marc:It was the yellow brick road.

00:33:06Marc:Yeah.

00:33:07Marc:Yeah, it was lovely.

00:33:08Marc:Yeah.

00:33:08Marc:it's so much comedy yeah where did all that generate from did you how did that you just began to work together like uh comedically did it take a little time well the two producers had great taste they had a good casting director jay sandrich was our director primarily uh-huh and he uh he had uh excellent comic knowledge it's just it's fascinating though does it fascinate you in retrospect uh

00:33:34Guest:Yeah, but then we went on and did an hour show of Lou Grant, and I think the cast we had there was as good, if not better.

00:33:43Marc:That was a great show.

00:33:44Marc:Both of them lasted a good many years.

00:33:47Marc:Well, 12 years total for both of them.

00:33:50Marc:People love that Lou Grant character.

00:33:53Marc:Do they still come up to you now?

00:33:55Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:33:56Marc:And say Lou Grant.

00:33:57Marc:He's the avuncular person that people always want.

00:34:02Marc:You know, I think you're hilarious.

00:34:06Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:34:06Marc:But you know that, right?

00:34:07Marc:When did you think that?

00:34:09Marc:immediately when you said when you cast me as your father in that for lunch at the pilot yeah and then when you got out of the car here in the driveway and said oh where the fuck am i i think yeah well look at the neighborhood for christ where do you live oh yeah you would really think you had died and gone to heaven really yeah got a beautiful place yeah we rent oh you do an apartment or a house house yeah so you don't own the house anymore got rid of that one

00:34:37Marc:A long time ago.

00:34:39Marc:Yeah?

00:34:39Marc:It's easier to rent?

00:34:40Guest:I let my wife have it.

00:34:42Marc:The first wife?

00:34:43Marc:Second.

00:34:44Marc:The second one?

00:34:45Marc:And you've been married three times?

00:34:50Marc:No, twice.

00:34:51Marc:Okay.

00:34:51Marc:She's the one who's showing me.

00:34:53Marc:Yeah.

00:34:54Marc:Yeah, after it's done, someone's not nice usually.

00:34:58Marc:Yeah.

00:34:59Marc:It never ends.

00:35:01Marc:I'm sorry you're going through that.

00:35:03Guest:No, no, no.

00:35:03Guest:It's all part of the life spectrum.

00:35:08Marc:But back in the career thing, after Mary Tyler Moore, again, you did another 40 years of work.

00:35:16Marc:50 years.

00:35:18Marc:You've worked more than anyone I've ever seen.

00:35:20Marc:Oh, well.

00:35:22Marc:it's amazing yeah i remember seeing you in jfk and thinking like holy shit ed asner scary that is a heavy fart that was a heavy part what did you say it's a heavy fart that got you that's a heavy fart what a fart that was a heavy fart yeah it was well and jack lemon had the scratches on his face to prove it oh that's right that was that the first time you work with him

00:35:46Guest:No, we had worked on Broadway together.

00:35:49Guest:When was that?

00:35:50Guest:That was in 60.

00:35:53Guest:Really?

00:35:54Guest:Yeah, Face of a Hero.

00:35:56Guest:Albert Decker, Betsy Blair, Sandy Dennis, Russell Collins, Roy Poole.

00:36:02Guest:Did a lot of theater, Ed.

00:36:03Guest:Ellen Hawley.

00:36:04Marc:I did before, but yeah, before.

00:36:06Marc:Not since I came to Hollywood.

00:36:10Marc:Okay, so in 1960, you worked with Jack Lemmon, then you worked with him in JFK.

00:36:14Marc:Had you seen him since?

00:36:16Marc:I don't recall.

00:36:18Marc:I always assume that people have these moments where they're like, oh my God, how are you?

00:36:22Marc:That's what it is.

00:36:25Guest:You know, we had a great director for Face of a Hero, Sandy McKendrick.

00:36:32Guest:The night of the cocktail party before rehearsals began, he said, lovely reading.

00:36:40Guest:And he said, of course, you can't be that funny.

00:36:43Guest:And I, oh, well, he's the great director.

00:36:45Guest:He'll take care of me.

00:36:48Guest:Well, he so militated against anything I might do that was funny, he eventually had me doing my role with my back to the audience.

00:36:58Guest:Why?

00:36:59Guest:Because he didn't want me to be funny.

00:37:00Guest:Why?

00:37:01Guest:And the character could only have been written for two reasons, to be funny and to commit perjury as part of the plot.

00:37:09Guest:Yeah.

00:37:10Guest:So I suffered through that goddamn show.

00:37:13Guest:Years later, I don't know where I ran into, maybe it was with JFK.

00:37:18Guest:Yeah, Jack.

00:37:20Guest:And I made some comments complaining about McKendrick's direction.

00:37:27Yeah.

00:37:27Guest:And he said, oh, no, no, no, no.

00:37:30Guest:I knew we were in trouble when I was on stage.

00:37:35Guest:And I looked over in the wings, and there he was, and he was visualizing the camera shot he was going to shoot.

00:37:43Guest:From the wings as director, and he was visualizing the camera.

00:37:50Guest:Though he forgot about directing a play.

00:37:54Marc:So that brought Jack and me close together.

00:37:56Marc:Did you like working with Oliver Stone?

00:37:58Marc:Yeah.

00:38:00Marc:He was good.

00:38:01Guest:Oliver was funny.

00:38:02Guest:Yeah.

00:38:03Guest:We'd go along, and we'd rehearse, and I'd think about something, I'd think about something, lining up a shot.

00:38:12Guest:Yeah.

00:38:12Guest:And I'd say...

00:38:14Guest:you know, what if I change this word or change this line to that?

00:38:20Guest:And if he didn't have time to think about it, he said, yeah, sure, fine, go ahead.

00:38:25Guest:But if there was too much time before we were ready to shoot, he'd come back finally and he'd say, no, I don't think so.

00:38:33Guest:Yeah, keep it away.

00:38:35Marc:Yeah, so he had to sneak it in.

00:38:37Guest:But if I got him without a lot of time, he'd always buy the changes.

00:38:43Yeah.

00:38:43Marc:You're doing a lot of voice work now, and the Up movie was a big deal.

00:38:48Marc:Yeah.

00:38:48Marc:Do you enjoy doing that?

00:38:50Guest:I love it.

00:38:51Marc:Yeah, right?

00:38:52Marc:It's easier.

00:38:52Marc:I love voice work.

00:38:53Guest:That has nothing to do with easy, but I feel I can do as good a job with just the voice without having to walk.

00:39:03Right.

00:39:03Marc:Right.

00:39:04Marc:I don't have to shave.

00:39:06Marc:That's right.

00:39:07Marc:I just did an angry raccoon today, earlier today.

00:39:11Marc:You did?

00:39:12Marc:Yeah, I was an angry raccoon.

00:39:14Guest:Where can we see this raccoon?

00:39:16Marc:This would be on Nickelodeon.

00:39:18Marc:This would be on the Harvey Beaks cartoons, a new Nickelodeon show.

00:39:22Marc:I don't know.

00:39:23Marc:Yeah, who knows what's going on on television anymore?

00:39:26Guest:Well, it's nice that you're gainfully employed.

00:39:29Marc:I do okay.

00:39:30Marc:This thing does okay out of the garage.

00:39:33Marc:That show that you and I did, it became a show.

00:39:35Marc:Third season started.

00:39:37Marc:Is it?

00:39:37Marc:Yeah.

00:39:39Guest:It's going?

00:39:39Guest:Yeah.

00:39:40Guest:So who ended up being your father?

00:39:42Guest:Judd Hirsch.

00:39:43Guest:Oh, my God.

00:39:44Guest:You were doing a play.

00:39:46Guest:I know.

00:39:47Guest:I know.

00:39:48Guest:Judd Hurst is a fine actor.

00:39:50Guest:He is.

00:39:50Guest:He's good.

00:39:51Guest:He can be a pain in the ass, but I'm fine.

00:39:55Marc:How many episodes did you make per season?

00:39:58Marc:We did 10 that first season, then 13 the second season, then 13 this season.

00:40:03Marc:It's an interesting time now that when you were on television in the 70s, you only had three options.

00:40:13Marc:And now you've got hundreds of options.

00:40:15Marc:It's interesting, the landscape.

00:40:17Marc:And it's more chaotic than ever.

00:40:20Marc:Yeah.

00:40:21Marc:Our lives are not made better or simpler, I don't think.

00:40:25Marc:Absolutely not.

00:40:26Marc:I don't think so at all.

00:40:27Marc:And we just adapt to it without even thinking about it.

00:40:29Marc:Does it exhaust you?

00:40:30Marc:Yeah.

00:40:31Marc:It does?

00:40:32Guest:I haven't figured out all the aspects of my cell phone.

00:40:35Marc:No, there's no figuring it all out.

00:40:37Marc:Oh, some people do.

00:40:39Marc:That's all they do because they live and sleep and die with it.

00:40:42Marc:Yeah, but you just wanted to do the three things or four things or five things.

00:40:45Marc:That's right.

00:40:45Guest:That's right.

00:40:46Marc:So now, you never stop working.

00:40:50Marc:Do you not?

00:40:52Marc:Is that why I'm so rich?

00:40:54Marc:Yeah.

00:40:54Marc:You're just filthy rich.

00:40:56Guest:Oh, my God.

00:40:58Guest:How much do you need?

00:41:00Marc:I'm okay.

00:41:01Marc:I just want you to be happy.

00:41:03Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:41:03Marc:I'll make me rich.

00:41:05Marc:What about when you were head of the union?

00:41:08Marc:How did that come about?

00:41:09Marc:What made you decide to do that?

00:41:10Guest:Well, I had campaigned vigorously for the rebels of the union.

00:41:16Marc:This is AFTRA, right?

00:41:18Marc:No, SAG.

00:41:18Marc:You were the head of SAG?

00:41:19Guest:Yeah, because I was the head of Lou Grant, and I spoke well on the streets.

00:41:29Guest:They decided to run me as their candidate against Bill Schallert, who was a good president, but they wanted to do better.

00:41:36Marc:Right.

00:41:37Guest:And I defeated him.

00:41:40Marc:Was that exciting?

00:41:40Yeah.

00:41:42Guest:Yeah, I guess because I was going into waters, I certainly didn't have charted.

00:41:47Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:41:48Marc:Yeah.

00:41:49Marc:Well, how was that experience?

00:41:50Marc:What were you hoping to accomplish?

00:41:51Marc:Learning on the job.

00:41:52Marc:Yeah.

00:41:53Guest:Learning how your friends can be as punishing, if not more so than your enemies.

00:42:02Yeah.

00:42:02Marc:So, what was the day-to-day thing?

00:42:03Marc:What were you fighting for?

00:42:04Marc:What's the job of a union head?

00:42:06Guest:Well, as always, you fight for minority rights, you fight for senior citizens, greater inclusion.

00:42:15Guest:So, did you feel like you accomplished something in that position?

00:42:18Guest:Well, the membership certainly seemed to like me and speak favorably of my presidency.

00:42:27Guest:But what the Union has become is dreck.

00:42:32Guest:Yeah.

00:42:33Marc:Have they all become dreck?

00:42:35Marc:A lot of them?

00:42:35Marc:Probably.

00:42:36Marc:Why do you think that's happened?

00:42:39Marc:Because I know you're a fighter.

00:42:43Marc:You fight the good fight.

00:42:45Marc:What do you think's happening?

00:42:46Guest:Well, merger was a mistake.

00:42:48Guest:Yeah?

00:42:48Guest:Because they didn't... We had studied merger.

00:42:54Guest:After 1980, we studied merger.

00:42:56Uh-huh.

00:42:56Guest:And merger would be fine if you can achieve the merger of health and welfare.

00:43:08Guest:Right.

00:43:08Guest:But if you can't merge those plans and...

00:43:13Guest:I forget what the term is, gain acceptance of, say, you're working after and get credit for it with your SAG medical plan.

00:43:23Guest:If you can't do those things, you're losing out all the time.

00:43:27Guest:And it's the same way with pension.

00:43:29Guest:Why shouldn't the pensions be merged?

00:43:31Guest:Right.

00:43:32Guest:Find the way to do it.

00:43:33Guest:Right.

00:43:34Guest:To coalesce.

00:43:35Guest:Right.

00:43:35Guest:And they didn't do it.

00:43:37Marc:Yeah.

00:43:37Guest:And what they've got now is a mishmash.

00:43:39Marc:Right.

00:43:40Marc:Yeah, you just kind of get covered in whatever you make the money.

00:43:43Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:43:44Marc:Right?

00:43:44Marc:Yeah.

00:43:45Marc:Did you ever have any aspirations to politics?

00:43:47Guest:People thought I did when I got outspoken on Central America.

00:43:54Guest:They thought I was trying to follow in Reagan's

00:43:57Guest:footstep.

00:44:01Guest:But no, I never read it.

00:44:03Guest:I always found that the actor who stayed the actor and spoke out probably achieved more clout than a politician.

00:44:13Guest:And certainly it's much more rewarding financially to leave acting and become a politician because those babies certainly receive great benefits.

00:44:25Marc:Yeah, they do.

00:44:26Marc:And security detail, depending on how high up you get.

00:44:31Guest:Well, they should have security details.

00:44:36Guest:I'd like to knock a few of them in the head.

00:44:38Marc:Yeah.

00:44:39Marc:So in looking back on the whole endeavor, the life, I look at the resume and you work so much.

00:44:50Marc:Are there things that you look back on and think like, Jesus Christ, that was fucking amazing?

00:44:54Marc:Hmm.

00:44:55Marc:Like do you like sit and reflect at all?

00:44:58Guest:No.

00:44:58Marc:You don't?

00:44:59Marc:No.

00:44:59Marc:I didn't think so.

00:45:00Marc:It's done, right?

00:45:01Guest:I'm waiting for the next job.

00:45:03Marc:Yeah.

00:45:03Marc:Well, it looks like you got a lot going on.

00:45:05Marc:What are you doing?

00:45:05Guest:Well, a man and his prostate certainly has a lot of promise to it.

00:45:09Marc:But that's going to get you on the road, right?

00:45:12Yeah.

00:45:12Guest:Not necessarily.

00:45:13Guest:I mean, I don't know.

00:45:14Guest:Maybe we can film it.

00:45:15Guest:Maybe we can get it in a stage in New York.

00:45:20Guest:And just hang out for a while and do it.

00:45:23Guest:Look at the mileage Love Letter's got.

00:45:25Marc:Yeah.

00:45:26Marc:For God's sake.

00:45:27Marc:And you still, you like working.

00:45:29Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:45:31Marc:Yeah.

00:45:31Marc:Don't you?

00:45:32Marc:Yes.

00:45:33Marc:But sometimes I wonder, would it be nice to sit down?

00:45:36Guest:Well, I think I've become too keyed up and geared up to sit down.

00:45:43Guest:I've really got to go through a long, dry run of practicing sitting down.

00:45:49Marc:Yeah.

00:45:50Marc:It was never part of your... No.

00:45:53Marc:Just keep moving.

00:45:54Marc:Yeah.

00:45:54Marc:How old are your children now, all of them?

00:45:56Guest:Well, I've got boy-girls twins who are 51.

00:45:59Marc:Unbelievable, yeah.

00:46:01Guest:And their younger sister is about 48.

00:46:03Guest:Yeah.

00:46:04Guest:And then I got my 27-year-old in Connecticut.

00:46:10Marc:Yeah?

00:46:11Marc:Yeah.

00:46:12Marc:You get along good with all of them?

00:46:14Marc:I try to.

00:46:14Marc:Yeah?

00:46:16Marc:Yeah.

00:46:16Marc:And you got grandkids?

00:46:18Marc:Seven.

00:46:19Marc:How's that?

00:46:19Marc:It's great?

00:46:20Marc:It's all right.

00:46:23Come on.

00:46:24Marc:Come on.

00:46:25Guest:I don't drop my pants at the joy of grandkids.

00:46:32Guest:Yeah?

00:46:33Guest:Just another sperm order fulfilled.

00:46:36Marc:No.

00:46:37Marc:Yeah.

00:46:38Marc:You don't fill with love in your heart.

00:46:41Guest:No.

00:46:42Marc:no i try to be give them a fair shake let's put it that way okay how old are they they like my age they're from 15 to about four four 15 to four are the grandkids do they have a sense of who you are i guess so i don't know oh right yeah you have any joy in your life ed

00:47:03Marc:Well, she's not around right now.

00:47:10Marc:You're going to be seeing her later?

00:47:11Marc:Yeah, when she comes back from the ashram.

00:47:16Guest:Really?

00:47:16Guest:Is that where she is?

00:47:17Marc:Do you keep in touch with any actors that you worked with?

00:47:21Marc:I mean, are any of your friends actors?

00:47:22Marc:Yeah, Peter Jason is a good friend.

00:47:25Marc:Yeah, I like him a lot.

00:47:26Marc:And now all of a sudden I'm just concerned about your life.

00:47:29Marc:Do you play cards?

00:47:30Marc:Do you sit and do it?

00:47:31Guest:I do play cards at Norby Walters once a month or two.

00:47:35Marc:When you play poker?

00:47:36Marc:Yeah.

00:47:37Marc:That's nice.

00:47:38Guest:Yeah.

00:47:39Marc:What do you do for exercise?

00:47:41Guest:I spent a half hour on the elliptical.

00:47:46Guest:Okay.

00:47:47Guest:And do some push-ups.

00:47:48Guest:Do you?

00:47:49Marc:Yeah.

00:47:49Marc:All right.

00:47:51Marc:You don't want to fuck with me.

00:47:53Marc:No, I never wanted to fuck.

00:47:54Marc:I knew that when we acted together in that brief capacity.

00:47:59Marc:Right.

00:48:00Marc:I knew I didn't want to fuck with you.

00:48:01Marc:Yeah.

00:48:02Marc:So...

00:48:03Marc:Do you do the FDR thing anymore?

00:48:08Marc:Is that done?

00:48:08Guest:I'm going to do it in Cape Girardeau, Missouri.

00:48:11Guest:For how long?

00:48:12Guest:In October.

00:48:12Guest:One night.

00:48:13Guest:Oh, okay.

00:48:14Guest:Rush Limbaugh's hometown.

00:48:16Guest:I'm going to find out what the roots are to Rush Limbaugh.

00:48:20Guest:To the monster?

00:48:21Guest:What do you think it is?

00:48:23Guest:Well, I heard a story a long time ago that initially he was on radio spouting a liberal format.

00:48:31Guest:Probably.

00:48:32Guest:And that they came to him and they said, this ain't going to sell.

00:48:37Marc:Yeah.

00:48:37Guest:Say, okay, I'll switch.

00:48:38Marc:Yeah.

00:48:39Marc:He's a showboat.

00:48:41Marc:Yeah.

00:48:42Marc:There are evil clowns and there are good clowns.

00:48:45Marc:Yeah.

00:48:46Marc:Right?

00:48:47Yeah.

00:48:47Marc:But you probably remember what was radio like when you were younger?

00:48:50Marc:I loved it.

00:48:52Marc:I loved it.

00:48:52Marc:When you were trying to get into it.

00:48:54Marc:NBC University.

00:48:55Marc:I didn't try to get into radio.

00:48:56Guest:I never did.

00:48:57Guest:Well, you did some in high school and you did a little bit.

00:48:59Guest:I know, but I wasn't trying to get into it.

00:49:01Guest:Oh, okay.

00:49:01Guest:NBC University, Theater of the Air.

00:49:04Guest:Yeah.

00:49:05Guest:Escape was another great show.

00:49:07Guest:That's where I first heard Leiningen versus the ants.

00:49:12Guest:Oh, God, was that great.

00:49:14Guest:William Conrad was the narrator.

00:49:17Guest:And they had little bugles blowing every time the ants marched.

00:49:21Marc:You loved it.

00:49:22Marc:The theater of the mind.

00:49:24Marc:Yes, yes.

00:49:25Marc:So that was when you were a kid, you were listening to that.

00:49:28Marc:Like, what other things do you remember around that?

00:49:30Marc:The radio.

00:49:31Guest:Well, Screen Actors Guild Presents.

00:49:34Marc:Uh-huh.

00:49:35Marc:Lux Radio.

00:49:36Marc:Yeah.

00:49:37Marc:Uh...

00:49:38Marc:I thought there were a lot of actors in radio, weren't there?

00:49:40Marc:Well, I'll tell you what.

00:49:41Marc:Yeah.

00:49:42Guest:That's true.

00:49:44Guest:I used to listen to The Eternal Light.

00:49:47Guest:Uh-huh.

00:49:47Guest:I don't know if they were playing when you were.

00:49:51Guest:And so when I first started out...

00:49:54Guest:I got a... I was still in New York.

00:49:58Marc:Yeah.

00:49:59Guest:And I went to see the guy who cast Eternal Lights.

00:50:03Marc:Yeah.

00:50:03Guest:He said, yeah, yeah, I forget what his name was.

00:50:06Guest:So they cast me on a couple.

00:50:11Guest:And one of them...

00:50:13Guest:And this was memorable for me.

00:50:16Guest:I played one of Moses' generals.

00:50:20Guest:And the other generals were Louis Van Rooten, Alexander Scorby, Norman Rose...

00:50:33Guest:I can't remember the others.

00:50:35Guest:But five biggest names in radio in America.

00:50:42Guest:And I was the sixth.

00:50:44Guest:And I thought I had died and gone to heaven.

00:50:47Guest:To me, it was more important than any play or film.

00:50:55Guest:And whoever was in it, it didn't matter.

00:50:58Guest:Being with these guys, to me,

00:51:00Guest:was the mark of success.

00:51:03Guest:Yeah.

00:51:04Marc:Was it a great feeling?

00:51:05Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:51:06Guest:Yeah.

00:51:07Wonderful.

00:51:08Guest:I mean, Scorby and Norman Rose.

00:51:10Guest:Yeah.

00:51:11Guest:Did you ever see the Russian War and Peace?

00:51:14Guest:Mm-mm.

00:51:14Guest:Norman Rose was the narrator of it.

00:51:16Guest:It's the most beautiful narration you ever heard.

00:51:19Guest:And Scorby, it goes without saying, was always great.

00:51:22Marc:Was that the only time you really felt that, where you're like, these are my heroes?

00:51:26Yeah.

00:51:27Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:51:29Guest:I didn't feel it with John Wayne, naturally.

00:51:32Guest:Hawks, though.

00:51:34Guest:Hawks, I mean, he's distant.

00:51:38Guest:He's the director.

00:51:39Guest:Yeah, sure.

00:51:40Marc:John Wayne he didn't love.

00:51:42Guest:Well, he was hard not to love because he's such a scoundrel.

00:51:47Marc:Yeah.

00:51:48Guest:But I was too deeply geared in leftist identification.

00:51:54Guest:But he ended up treating me okay.

00:51:58Marc:Yeah?

00:51:59Marc:Yeah.

00:52:00Marc:But you missed the blacklist in Hollywood.

00:52:03Guest:No, I became part of it, my own, I'd say, after I took my stand on El Salvador.

00:52:12Marc:You felt ostracized?

00:52:16Guest:Blacklisted.

00:52:17Marc:Really?

00:52:18Marc:Yeah.

00:52:19Marc:And that was in the, what, the 70s or 80s?

00:52:22Marc:80.

00:52:23Marc:It was 1980.

00:52:25Marc:And what was your position exactly?

00:52:27Guest:Well, that this government had to stop providing arms to the repressive government of El Salvador who were killing farmers and people that they regarded as

00:52:41Guest:Poor scum who undoubtedly had to be communists.

00:52:45Marc:And that you felt that got you blacklisted.

00:52:50Guest:Well, I was a spokesman for medical aid for El Salvador.

00:52:55Guest:And people thought I was giving union money to them, which I wasn't.

00:53:00Mm-hmm.

00:53:00Guest:And they thought that I was aligning myself with what probably was a communist-inspired opposition.

00:53:14Guest:I can remember the first big announcement we gave was in Washington, a press conference.

00:53:22Guest:I had always played it careful, you know, not to step on my wang.

00:53:29Guest:And before I could.

00:53:35Guest:So that because I was the spokesman and the others who were with me who were also actors,

00:53:44Guest:the first questions automatically went to me.

00:53:48Guest:So the second question I got was from a cable reporter.

00:53:52Guest:He said, you say you're in favor of free elections in El Salvador.

00:53:56Guest:I suppose those elections turn out a communist government.

00:53:59Guest:And I go, bam!

00:54:01Guest:Oh, shit.

00:54:03Guest:And I said, you come all this way, and you've successfully avoided being pegged, and here you've got to deliver.

00:54:15Guest:And I gave some wimpish answer to him, moved on to the next guy, gave an answer that I could get away with with him, and was so plagued with guilt that I'd come all this way, come all this time, and I was going to not be upfront with who I am and what I was doing.

00:54:35Guest:And I said, I wasn't satisfied with my answer to you.

00:54:39Guest:All I can say to you is that if it's the government the people of El Salvador choose, let them have it.

00:54:47Guest:And...

00:54:50Guest:Nothing was ever reminded to me of that answer.

00:54:56Guest:But I felt from that point on, my career was dead.

00:55:01Marc:For how long?

00:55:02Marc:Oh, several years.

00:55:03Marc:Really?

00:55:04Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:55:06Marc:Interesting.

00:55:06Marc:Did you feel like you lost friends over that?

00:55:10Guest:I don't know, but if they were friends and they left me because of that statement, then they can go to hell.

00:55:19Marc:But mostly in terms of if you felt like you were blacklisted, it was fear of the studios aligning themselves with a communist sympathizer or a politically lefty actor.

00:55:29Guest:Well, I found two instances.

00:55:31Guest:I eventually gave a... During this blacklist, I gave a...

00:55:37Guest:an interview in Washington, D.C., where I happen to be for some reason.

00:55:40Guest:Right.

00:55:41Guest:And in it, I said that in a blacklist, your liberals join in on that just as much as your conservatives.

00:55:51Guest:Oh, yeah?

00:55:51Guest:Because the director, the producer, they won't allow their conscience to say, no, he's a commie.

00:56:00Guest:What they'll say is, no, he's too fat or...

00:56:04Guest:He's too gray or he's overexposed.

00:56:09Guest:Think up some euphemism to not hire me.

00:56:14Guest:But they would never say he's a commie.

00:56:17Guest:So I said that on that.

00:56:19Guest:And it's what happens.

00:56:22Guest:And I gave two instances.

00:56:24Guest:One was a producer, who one would think was a liberal.

00:56:30Guest:Howard Rodman wrote a script for him for a new series after Lou Grant was canceled.

00:56:36Guest:And he suggested me for the senior doctor.

00:56:39Guest:And the producer said, no, I think he'd be a political liability.

00:56:46Marc:Well, that's straight.

00:56:48Guest:That's straight, yes.

00:56:50Guest:But it's... It's blacklisted.

00:56:51Guest:It's blacklisted.

00:56:52Guest:Right.

00:56:54Guest:And then a little while longer, I got a job offer in Connecticut, I think, or Boston, I don't know, for some network documentary.

00:57:07Yeah.

00:57:07Guest:And the first day, the producer invited me to launch.

00:57:12Guest:He said, you know why you're here?

00:57:13Guest:I said, no.

00:57:15Guest:You gave an interview about six months ago, a year ago, about blacklisting.

00:57:20Guest:And I said, yeah.

00:57:22Guest:And he said, that's why you're here.

00:57:25Guest:I said, what do you mean?

00:57:26Guest:He said, well, I had another documentary that I put you down for and submitted your name along with others to the company.

00:57:38Guest:And the list came back and there was a red line through your name.

00:57:43Guest:He said, and I knew why, but I didn't do anything.

00:57:47Marc:And that's why you're here now.

00:57:49Marc:To make it right.

00:57:50Marc:Yeah.

00:57:51Marc:Well, you survived that storm.

00:57:53Marc:You weathered it.

00:57:54Marc:You stood your ground.

00:57:55Guest:There's still people out there who probably wouldn't want to hire me because they think I'm a commie.

00:58:01Marc:But you're not a commie.

00:58:02Guest:No, I'm not, but I mean, who gives a shit?

00:58:06Guest:Yeah.

00:58:10Marc:I'm glad you're alive, man.

00:58:12Marc:Me too.

00:58:12Marc:And it was great talking to you.

00:58:14Marc:Good being with you.

00:58:21Thank you.