Sally Kellerman from 2013
Marc:It's interesting because I saw the number of movies you did, and I would say that everyone knows you as Hot Lips, right?
Marc:Still?
Guest:Still, exactly.
Guest:Thus the title of my book.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I finally gave in.
Guest:Isn't that mind-blowing?
Guest:It is, yeah.
Marc:That that was the role?
Guest:I know.
Marc:And it was a fairly aggressive female personality, which you're not that person.
Guest:Oh no, but I, but I, you know, I did, I was voted a nine class clown.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Guest:So that when Bob, well, I mean, you know, it's a long story, but we got time.
Marc:We can go back.
Marc:We can start at the beginning if you want.
Marc:Let's start at the beginning.
Marc:Sally Kellerman is, uh, you're a local, you grew up in this area.
Guest:Well, I grew up in San Fernando, Granada Hills, and then moved to town in the 10th grade.
Marc:So where'd your family, how'd they end up here in San Fernando Valley?
Marc:Because it was like, it's not the same as it was now.
Guest:Oh, no, there was nothing there.
Guest:And Granada Hills, I spent all my days walking, sitting under bushes, daydreaming.
Guest:And the real tip-off that I was going to be a performer was that one day, walking alone with my dog, I go, I wonder why God chose me to see the world through my eyes.
Guest:You know, I thought, oh boy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There it was.
Guest:If any of you know, me, me, me.
Marc:Yeah, chosen my God.
Guest:My God to see the world.
Marc:What was the valley like though?
Marc:What was out there?
Guest:Oh, I loved it so much.
Guest:It was nothing.
Guest:I mean, it was orange where I lived in Garada Hills.
Guest:It was all orange groves.
Marc:And that was, I think Bob Hope probably owned the entire valley at that time.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:He owned Malibu Canyon, all that area.
Guest:It was beautiful rolling hills.
Guest:Oh my God, it's such a gorgeous country.
Marc:So what did your dad do?
Marc:I mean, what was his business out there?
Guest:He was a salesman.
Marc:And he just settled there?
Guest:No, he was a salesman.
Guest:He started, you know, worked for the Shell Oil Company.
Guest:My mom, only a slight mention of it my whole life.
Guest:And I never got into it.
Guest:My dad didn't live long enough for me to finally grow up and say, hey, dad, tell me about yourself.
Marc:How old were you when he died?
Guest:old but you know 33 but i mean you weren't interested i should have been yeah i took me i'm a late bloomer you know i talk to him all the time now that he's dead you know i do do you yeah sometimes i have to remind myself to call a couple of my friends who are still living you know just you know you have conversations with your dad around the house my dad my mom really best friend luana anders and all kinds of people that's what i mean i think wait a minute
Guest:I know a few people who are still alive.
Marc:Maybe I should check in with them.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:No, it's great.
Guest:I mean, I really, I feel very attached to all of them.
Guest:You know, I feel like they're up there.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Sure rooting for me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, me, me, me.
Marc:But that's like, you know, that's who we are, right?
Marc:That's why we chose the business we chose.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:How did you find your way into, like, when you were in school, when was your interest sort of to be a movie star?
Marc:What sparked that?
Guest:Well, I came out of the womb singing and acting, you know what I mean?
Guest:In grammar school, my best friend wrote a play.
Guest:She let me star in it.
Guest:It was probably three minutes long or something.
Guest:I added a song, a B.O.
Guest:song.
Marc:So it was dancing and singing.
Guest:No dancing.
Marc:No dancing.
Marc:Just singing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Michael Kidd, I was in a Broadway musical, he said, it isn't that you can't dance, it's that you won't, you know, because I was so insecure.
Guest:But, you know, singing, music has been my passion along with acting.
Guest:And so I was heavy and didn't like myself in high school.
Marc:Heavy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People always say, yeah, I was like 175, 510, you know, the butch haircut from the Valley.
Guest:But at Hollywood High, but I always put trios together.
Guest:I was always singing and I did demos and there was a group called the four preps that were in my high school, you know, Lincoln, my organ.
Guest:The last time I saw him, he was playing with Quincy Jones.
Uh-huh.
Guest:And we did demos in my living room.
Guest:I don't know how we made them.
Guest:What kind of music?
Guest:Not like today.
Guest:Well, then it was jazz.
Guest:My roots are in jazz, for sure.
Guest:And I got a contract with Verve Records right out of that.
Guest:That was Norman Grands.
Guest:It had all the greats.
Marc:Great jazz label.
Marc:It did everybody.
Guest:Yeah, it did everybody at that time.
Guest:And they signed me right this summer after school.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:18.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So you're signed to Verve Records as a vocalist at 18?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you went to Hollywood High?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I know it's corny because, you know, Lana Turner got hired from the stool of the bench, but it was one of my best friends, Dawn Richards, who knew Norman Grands, and she took it there, and Barney Kessel signed me.
Guest:And I was with Jack Nicholson, who was in my acting class, right when I graduated from Hollywood High, the summer I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Another friend of mine who was a child radio actress, he said, well, if you're serious, it took me to the 12th grade to admit I was going to be an actress because I thought you had to be pretty.
Guest:They'd just think I was pretty and I felt so not pretty so I never told anybody.
Marc:Did you act in high school though?
Guest:Well, only when I got into the 12th grade.
Guest:But mostly I just sang.
Guest:It was okay to sing and be a geek, you know what I mean?
Guest:But, you know, to say you wanted to be an actress.
Marc:In Hollywood must have been like.
Guest:Yeah, and I said, no, they know I couldn't do that.
Marc:Did you go to school with a bunch of kids whose parents were in the business?
Marc:No.
Marc:Didn't know anybody.
Guest:No, didn't know anybody, you know.
Marc:Because that kind of got, I think Hollywood High was sort of, a lot of actors' kids went there at some point, didn't they?
Marc:Maybe it was after.
Guest:Before or after my time.
Guest:I think Carol Burnett went there.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Did you know her in high school?
Marc:No.
Guest:I think she was a little before me, maybe.
Guest:I'm not sure.
Guest:She's listening now going, what do you mean I was behind you?
Guest:How dare you?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:But anyway, the simple answer to your question is I always wanted to be, I knew exactly what I wanted to do.
Guest:And it turned out I had learning disabilities, which I didn't find out until my younger.
Marc:What kind?
Guest:dyslexia i learned nothing that kind oh you couldn't pay attention i got f's like add or something or i don't know whatever i am you know the school went by and i didn't ever care because i knew what i wanted to do and i liked people i so i could hang out with my pals in the quad you know my parents were as thrilled for me so tell me about this acting class so how that i mean because it was it sounds like it was fairly uh you know like important i mean yeah it was who was that guy i'm gonna tell you good
Guest:His name was Jeff Corey.
Guest:And my friend Norma Jean Nielsen, she said, well, if you're serious about being an actress, you have to go to this guy.
Guest:He worked with James Dean.
Guest:And you have to go to this class.
Guest:So I went to the class.
Guest:And it was James Coburn and Jack Nicholson and Robert Towne, who wrote Chinatown, a great writer.
Guest:And Carol Eastman, who wrote Five Busy Pieces.
Marc:Was she in that movie as well?
Guest:No, I don't think so, no.
Guest:And then Shirley Knight came in later.
Guest:And me and Luana, my best friend, we were like the butch girls.
Guest:Girls that wore makeup and everything.
Guest:I had my dad's big baggy shirt.
Guest:They didn't make cute jeans or anything.
Guest:It was just like, you know, you had to do the best you could.
Guest:And you guys were like kids.
Guest:Yeah, and we didn't wear any makeup or anything like that.
Guest:And when Shirley Knight came into class, she could cry.
Uh-huh.
Guest:Oh, right on a dot.
Guest:Just tears bubbling down her hands.
Guest:You know, a great director I worked with from Yale, I did Virginia Woolf with, he said, if crying is acting, my Aunt Fanny would have been a star.
Guest:So I've always hung on to that.
Guest:I cry like a baby, you know, like a real self-eating baby in real life.
Guest:But, you know, in the old days when they'd roll it and cry.
Guest:Yeah, couldn't do it.
Guest:Couldn't do it.
Guest:Now I can cry.
Marc:You can do it?
Guest:Now, yeah, somehow my skills developed, you know.
Marc:Is there a trick to crying?
Marc:Do you have to think about something?
Guest:No, I think you have to just really be in the moment, you know, and if things touch you, you know.
Marc:Right, so this guy, Jeff Corey...
Marc:So Jeff Corey... Was he like a wizard?
Marc:Was he like one of these Buddhas?
Guest:For me, he was.
Guest:Because, as I said, I keep always putting myself down.
Guest:But, you know, sort of geeky and everything.
Guest:And he saw something in me.
Guest:The very first night that I was there, I did a scene from Soroyans something.
Guest:And he said, have you ever acted before?
Guest:I said, well, you know, I was the mother in St.
Guest:Louis in high school.
Marc:I did that play in junior high.
Marc:You did?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I played the boss.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Mr. So-and-so, I don't remember.
Marc:I don't remember either.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I added a song.
Guest:I had to sing Lavender Blue, you know.
Marc:So you told him you were in that point.
Guest:So I told him, you know, and he said, well, anyway, he saw, you know, he saw that I didn't like myself.
Guest:He saw, and pull those sweaters up over your hands.
Guest:you know blah blah blah and then he told me that i needed to i needed ultimately he told me that i needed to see a shrink you know i'm really because he could see that i didn't like myself and he said and you're beautiful and you know and i knew he meant inside you know and he i felt like he saw my soul you know in those days i wasn't doing any comedy i was right you know really getting down yeah yeah and is that what a good acting teacher does though because you know i hear about these acting classes that are almost cult-like and
Marc:Now, it seems like the ones that get really well known as places where people go to learn, even if it's, you know, Strasburg or any of them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That the teacher has a certain, you know, sensitivity or charisma that, you know, people really feed off of.
Marc:And you felt like right away he was able to sort of pick you apart and send you to a shrink.
Guest:Well, he didn't send me to shrink right away, but I knew that he saw something in me, that I always felt I would never say anything to anybody.
Guest:And in the book, I keep saying, you know, I go to the mirror sometimes when I really feel bad, and I go, someday.
Guest:And I didn't even know what I meant.
Guest:But I had this sort of mantra that I would say.
Guest:And so that somewhere I knew that I had talent and that this is what I was going to do.
Marc:Did you go to a shrink?
Guest:I went to UCLA to, yeah, like an assistant shrink or something like that.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:A student shrink?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Said I need to work some stuff out.
Guest:And he said, you know, did you masturbate?
Guest:And I cried for an hour and a half.
Guest:I waited.
Guest:The whole hour went by.
Guest:I cried so hard.
Guest:Was that it?
Guest:I was so ashamed, you know.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:One of my early best friends when I was a kid in grammar school, you know, taught me how to, you know, suggested that I just, you know.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, masturbate.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that helped.
Guest:You know, until I got that good feeling.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, sure.
Guest:She said, you know, I don't have it, you know.
Marc:But anyway.
Marc:But that wasn't the source of your problem.
Guest:So all my life, you know, I'd always say to God, you know, that I would never do it again.
Guest:You know, he would forgive me.
Guest:You know, oh, my God, it's a miracle.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And speaking of being so real and honest, you know, what do I think I am?
Marc:That was one of the best things in the world, masturbation.
Marc:I mean, I don't know why anyone would ever shame anybody for doing that.
Guest:I don't think anybody did shame me, you know.
Guest:But when I moved away and my girlfriend and I, we talked to him, do you still do that thing?
Guest:I go, I know, do you know, neither one of us did that.
Marc:But...
Guest:So glad we could be able to get right to that.
Marc:No, no, it's a good thing.
Marc:It's important.
Marc:Masturbation is important.
Guest:It's very important, guys.
Marc:But how did you begin to move through this insecurity?
Marc:Because, I mean, it's not unusual for actors or for people that are in performing arts to have that.
Marc:I mean, I think it drives a lot of us for some reason, that sort of need for approval.
Marc:I mean, how did you start to work through that?
Guest:You know, I grew up in a very spiritual family.
Marc:What does that mean?
Guest:Well, it means there was a lot of love.
Guest:There was a lot of, as my mom would say, everything we need is within us.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, she really, you know, it was a Christian science, which is so, so controversial, you know.
Marc:It was Christian science.
Guest:Yes, it was, which is a more spiritual than religious kind of experience.
Marc:I think people are usually kind of taken aback by their approach to medicine.
Guest:Well, that's it.
Guest:Yeah, and letting their children die or something.
Guest:And my mother's best friend died of pneumonia, and mother came home and said she heard angels.
Guest:But when my mom, when I was a waitress in some of my funniest, happiest days of my life, she hemorrhaged, and they went right to the hospital.
Guest:And she'd been a first and second reader and everything, but it was the things that...
Guest:Darling, nothing is too good to happen.
Guest:It was just a very positive.
Guest:I always used to tell people I didn't have to run home when I skinned my knee because I knew I'm God's perfect child and I'm all right.
Guest:And then people in junior high, they'd say, what would you do if you broke your arm?
Guest:And I'd say, well, we work to know that we're not going to break our arm.
Guest:And I never did, but it worked out beautifully.
Guest:But when I was 18, I just rebelled.
Guest:If God is love, how come I'm fat and I don't have a boyfriend and I'm not a movie star?
Guest:So my poor mother had to live through that.
Guest:But what she left me with, this legacy of faith, is fantastic.
Guest:Maybe there are people listening and go, oh, brother, faith.
Guest:But it's given me such strength.
Marc:But not specific, or is it specific?
Guest:No, I mean, it's certainly God-based, in other words, or higher power, whatever you want to call it.
Guest:But a sense that...
Guest:That I'm, you know, that I'm not on my own.
Guest:That, you know, that things happen.
Guest:Miracles happen all the time in my life.
Guest:And I'm sure in yours and things that you're not expecting and suddenly there they are.
Marc:You just have to stop and acknowledge them.
Guest:Stop and acknowledge them.
Guest:The more I focus on the good and letting go.
Marc:And also, you know, being present for them.
Marc:Because a lot of times when you get ambitious or, you know, you want things to happen, you don't see that things are happening.
Guest:And you're like desperate and striving.
Guest:We're going to make it and then you're depressed.
Guest:And I've been through all that, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But at this time in my life, nice thing about living so long.
Guest:You get a little more wisdom.
Guest:I'm not going on the road with my wisdom.
Marc:Sure, you could if you wanted.
Marc:You could put that together.
Guest:But what my wisdom has afforded me is I've never had so much fun because I sing and I always have.
Marc:And you're still singing.
Guest:I'm out there singing.
Guest:I'm desperate to sing.
Guest:I can't sing enough and I can't sing enough because it's absolutely one of those pure joy deals.
Marc:It's terribly frightening to me.
Marc:Yeah, I love it.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:I got guitars here.
Marc:But I've always been afraid to do it in front of people.
Marc:And I just recently, within the last few years, sang in front of people.
Marc:And it freed me.
Marc:I've been scared of it my whole life.
Marc:Because I think it's much more vulnerable and much more raw than acting or anything.
Marc:I think singing.
Marc:I watch musicals.
Marc:I cry just because there's so many people singing.
Guest:oh i do too just because it's singing even if it's a happy musical and and you go to a musical and you hear the overture and i'm crying exactly but uh it's taken me 40 years you know from my from my first uh record contract and everyone asked me the beginning of the book they say well wait a minute you said that why didn't you make a record recording at that time yeah and i didn't know why except that i was so afraid
Guest:right i was going to be all alone singing you know i didn't know there was going to be a keyboard guy that i'd fall in love with you know and a band and you know and but the acting class was nurturing yeah jeff helped me grow up right in that you know that situation was warm and it was other friends and people and people i knew and you know that i loved you must have been the youngest one in the room right i mean how old was no i think jack was that age too and he was always magical like 19 or whatever yeah yeah yeah 18 19 yeah so you knew jack nichols when he was 19.
Guest:Yeah, and 20, and we were really good pals.
Guest:Oh, I love Jack.
Guest:Even now, as I say to him, Jack, I've always loved you in spite of yourself.
Guest:Whatever you feel about me, 40 years later, I still love you.
Guest:You see him sometimes?
Guest:I do, just every now and then, mostly on the phone or something.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:You guys still talk like old pals?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I guess we do.
Guest:He's great.
Guest:He's the greatest.
Marc:Yeah, he really is great.
Marc:And at that time, what, he was doing Corman movies?
Guest:Yes, he was.
Guest:Well, you know, he had it all together, man.
Guest:He had that silly high voice, you know, and everything.
Guest:But he just hooked in with Roger and Carol and everybody else.
Guest:And I'd be like, Geeko in the background, you know.
Guest:And finally Roger gave me a part.
Guest:In what movie?
Guest:Extra.
Guest:Machine Gun Kelly playing a prostitute.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:How perfect.
Guest:But I was grateful to have him.
Guest:What was Corman like at that time?
Guest:He was in my class too, by the way.
Guest:Really?
Marc:How old was that guy then?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I always think he's a little older than us, but probably not too much.
Guest:He would stand in the front of the class with his eyes closed tight like this.
Guest:And Jeff would say, Roger, you have to open your eyes.
Guest:And then he'd slowly, in the middle of the improvisation, turn around with his back to everybody.
Marc:That's so wild about those kind of acting classes where they just throw you into these situations.
Marc:And you're up there with another person in front of all these young people that are supposedly supportive, which they are.
Marc:But it's terrifying.
Guest:And getting back to the music, it's easier for me now to sing than it is... From all the acting?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, it's just easier.
Guest:To be on stage?
Guest:I'm thinking, because I've done a couple of independent movies this last year, you know, one playing an Alzheimer's patient, and I don't know why.
Guest:I said yes, because I hadn't been acting, and I suddenly went...
Guest:What have I done?
Guest:Why have I said yes?
Guest:Oh, my God, if I don't do it right, you know, it's not a funny situation.
Guest:So I was really proud.
Guest:I did a lot of research, and it worked out.
Guest:But I think my acting is better now because of the freedom I found.
Guest:It took me 40 years to get on that stage, and I go on with no script, no anything.
Guest:I don't know what's going to happen.
Guest:Because last week I got a lot of laughs.
Guest:I think, oh, my God, I have nothing in my head.
Guest:I don't know what I'm going to do.
Guest:I have no idea.
Guest:And I walk out there.
Guest:The other night I went, hello, hello.
Guest:And everybody laughed, you know.
Guest:So I'm not supposed to laugh.
Guest:Altman was a big, you know, he was involved in my music.
Guest:I don't give a shit what you say.
Guest:I just want to hear you sing, you know.
Guest:Don't talk, don't talk.
Guest:And I did big shows where everything was written, you know, structured and one thing called the other and backup singers and, you know, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:And now I just, I'm out there and I'm telling you, I love the audiences so much.
Guest:I'm so...
Guest:Free.
Guest:It's so free.
Marc:You have self-acceptance now.
Guest:Yeah, and great songs.
Guest:It's so much fun.
Guest:I like to go down in the audience and I don't kiss them, but I do try to touch everyone in the room and look and sing in their eyes.
Guest:It's just so much fun.
Guest:Just one song.
Marc:Fear is exhausting after a certain point.
Guest:Boy, no shit.
Guest:You know, I seem to be the one swearing.
Guest:Do we swear on this?
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:No problem.
Marc:Do we say, oh shit, Sherlock?
Marc:No shit, Sherlock?
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:Who was at the actor's studio when you were there?
Marc:Like other actors?
Guest:Anyone we know?
Guest:No.
Marc:In the book, you talk about meeting Marlon Brando, which I thought was sort of both exciting and creepy at the same time.
Guest:Oh, was it creepy?
Guest:Why was it creepy?
Marc:Well, because you were like a teenager and you ran into him and he's like, get in my car.
Guest:Oh, no, it's so much more fun than that.
Guest:It's one of the most heavenly moments of my life, you know.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Guest:When I was in junior high, Danny Kaye, you know, Bill Crosby, they were all my heroes.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then I went to see Viva Zapata in the theater, and my life changed, you know.
Guest:I learned about seething sexuality and vulnerability, that it wasn't terrible to be vulnerable, you know, because I was so shy.
Guest:And he was standing there without a shirt and these white drawstring pants looking out the window, you know.
Guest:Marlon.
Guest:Marlon.
Guest:Viva Zapata.
Guest:Anyway.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So then I saw the men and the wild men and guys and dolls.
Guest:I saw everything seven times, no less than seven times.
Guest:And when I moved to Hollywood High and then I graduated and I'm driving down Hollywood Boulevard one day and I look over and this beat up white car is Marlon Brando.
Guest:And I go, oh, my God.
Guest:Oh, that can't be Marlon.
Guest:Because he'd be in a limo.
Guest:You know, I had no idea what private life.
Guest:And then so I started seeing him in a movie once in white pants.
Guest:So I went right out with my little money for my waitress days and bought a pair of white pants and everything.
Guest:No, I mean, I worshipped him.
Guest:And I told my friends he would understand me, you know, because I had a weight problem.
Guest:I hear that he had a weight problem.
Guest:In those days, he had no weight problem.
Guest:He was the most gorgeous thing that ever walked, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so one night, Al Latir, this club we all hung out in called Cosmo Alley, and Stan Getz was playing there.
Guest:And Al Latir, he was in The Godfather and a Friend in Maryland, so I didn't know that.
Guest:But anyway, Al, hi, Al, I want to see Stan.
Guest:Can I get in?
Guest:He says, yeah, I'll put you right over here.
Guest:He sits me down, and I'm not looking because I don't know who I came with, but he left and I didn't care.
Guest:So I sit down in this chair, and suddenly this young black guy
Guest:He stands up in the dark and says,
Guest:Sayonara on the waterfront.
Guest:Marlon Brando, how do you do?
Guest:And I looked over.
Guest:Here's Marlon Brando sitting right next to him.
Guest:He throws his head back and he laughs.
Guest:Well, I turned to stone.
Guest:So two sets of Stan Getz, which I loved, you know, worshipped him too.
Guest:I did not move.
Guest:I didn't look to the left or the right.
Guest:And I had this bleach blonde hair and, you know, 170 and 510 and a big talker.
Guest:I didn't say a word.
Guest:And when my date left, he goes, I'm leaving.
Guest:I go...
Guest:Come on.
Guest:And now the lights come up and I'm still sitting there because I know he's still sitting there and I don't dare look.
Guest:And then suddenly I hear, so what are you, an actress?
Guest:And I whirl around.
Guest:I say, yes, I am.
Guest:I don't think it's funny.
Guest:And he says, would you like to go for a ride?
Guest:Yes, I would.
Guest:And so we get in this beat-up car, and I'm out of my mind.
Guest:I'm so in love and so panicked and scared and every feeling you could have.
Guest:And we go about a fourth of a block, and he reaches over and touches my arm, and I pull back.
Guest:And he says, right, I wouldn't want to spoil this beautiful friendship.
Guest:turns the car around and drops me off in front of the club.
Guest:And someone said, you must have been so devastated.
Guest:I said, devastated?
Guest:I was so thrilled and excited and over the moon.
Guest:I was in Marlon Brando's car, you know.
Marc:What do you think that was?
Marc:What do you think that moment meant when he said, I wouldn't want to ruin this beautiful friendship?
Marc:Do you think he was like, he decided in that moment not to... He knew he wasn't going to get laid.
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:He was like just bummed because, you know, man, I could have had a good, a cool night, you know, a quick...
Guest:Quick, you know, how do you do?
Guest:And then on with my evening.
Guest:So now, one night after work, I'm cleaning the tables off.
Marc:It was a small place.
Guest:It was just a little Indian out of sun.
Guest:You walked back into this little patio on Sunset Boulevard.
Guest:And so anyway, we're closed.
Guest:So I'm wiping the tables and suddenly I hear Max who thought he was Napoleon and he looked like him and everything.
Guest:He says, Sally, we're open.
Guest:I say, we are.
Guest:And I look up and coming through the patio is Marlon Brando with this big tall blonde guy.
Guest:And I just spent the last year in analysis, in therapy, trying to get over this crush on Marlon Brando.
Marc:And the masturbating.
Marc:Thanks so much.
Guest:Every minute.
Guest:So I'm staying away from him and I'm wiping every table.
Guest:I don't have to look at him.
Guest:He says, Sally, give them the menus.
Guest:Plunk the menus and back to my... And then I had to get this hot cider.
Guest:Anyway, I wiped myself into a corner right near where he was sitting.
Guest:I couldn't get any... There was nothing left to wipe.
Guest:I'm with my back to him and he goes...
Guest:Sally, don't you remember me or are you playing it cool?
Guest:And I whirled around and I said, I'm playing it cool because every minute I ever spent with you is the worst minute of my life.
Guest:And then he smiled and he said, would you like to come up to the house?
Guest:Yes, I would.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Long story short, we ended up on his bed, and this is, someone said they didn't know if this was pitiful or fantastic, you know, but we ended up on his bed talking, and he accidentally, I mean, just something, I said something, you know, kind of too tender or something, and he just touched me to, you know, be nice.
Guest:And I said, well, don't, and I just blurted out, don't touch me because you'll never touch me as much as I want you to.
Guest:And the next thing is like a dream sequence.
Guest:And I am now in Marlon Brando's bed spending the night going, no, don't.
Guest:Pushing, you know, fending him off for the night.
Guest:All night.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Because I wanted to be special, ladies and gentlemen.
Guest:I wanted to be special.
Guest:And he was still very, very attractive.
Guest:He was around the Young Lions time.
Guest:So he was still great looking.
Guest:You know, he wasn't fat.
Guest:Yeah, so I got to go watch him work once.
Guest:I really learned something.
Marc:So you never slept with him?
Guest:it is a mistake i wouldn't make in my next life you know that's all i can tell you you know it was a really you know to have this to love this man like i did but you know what i and then to ruin it yeah and then i said i was special all right he hated me the next day oh my god he was slamming doors and everything really he didn't get any sleep either he was so busy fighting him off right all right so that's hilarious but he was so sweet whenever i'd see him he'd go so i don't know you sally now you know
Guest:And before he died, I let them throw knives at me at the Circus of the Stars.
Guest:And my husband got off a plane from London and said, I hope they gave you a million dollars.
Guest:And then I heard from one of my friends that Marlon was at their house watching the circus.
Guest:He said, Sally shouldn't have done that because that was very dangerous.
Guest:So I said, that was my reward.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He still cared.
Marc:I mean, you were part of this, like that era in Hollywood, it seemed almost to me as a guy who can romanticize.
Marc:It was before me a little bit, but that seemed to be like the biggest party and the biggest...
Marc:fun times to live in Hollywood when the Laurel Canyon crew and Beatty and Nicholson and Bob Raffleson and Hopper and all those cats and Altman.
Marc:Yeah, Dennis, right.
Guest:And there were no paparazzi.
Guest:And this was before even Altman, you know, and no paparazzi.
Guest:Nobody, they could come in and people came in there every night.
Marc:To where you were working?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I was in my biggest starring role.
Guest:I waited on more movie stars than I worked with in my entire career.
Guest:But, you know, long brown hair and my high school skirt with the crinoline, you know.
Marc:Well, who do you remember being, like, you know, interesting and nice to you?
Marc:Or, like, were there moments where you're like, like, that guy's an asshole or that guy's a much nicer guy than I thought?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, Harry Gardino, you know who he is?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Yeah, so he came in there one night and somebody said to me while I was waiting on tables, he said, some of the stranger here says, boy, you're really big.
Guest:And Harry turns around and says, no, she's not, she's a woman.
Guest:Well, shortly thereafter, maybe that same night or another night, Warren Beatty comes in fresh from New York or wherever he came from.
Guest:And, you know, just a young boy.
Guest:And an agent, Paul Brandon, came over and said, you know, this guy, Warren Bailey, would like to know if you would like to have dinner with him or something.
Guest:And I was like, oh, please.
Guest:You know, this young boy, Harry Gardino, had said I was a woman, you know.
Guest:I couldn't possibly.
Guest:The next year, Warren was the biggest star in the world, the handsomest, you know.
Guest:And I could never get on that list of dinner and dinner.
Guest:And a roll in the hay.
Marc:You couldn't get in bed with Warren Beatty.
Marc:Come on.
Guest:You could have.
Guest:No, I'm saying I could have gotten in bed with him, but I couldn't have gotten a dinner and a movie.
Guest:I had my standards.
Marc:So that's interesting.
Marc:So the relationships that you built when you were early on that you sort of maintained, I always wonder about who keeps in touch with who.
Marc:You say sometimes you see Jack and you're close with Jack.
Marc:I keep in touch with Jack.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And he says, it's good you called Sally because he's up to me.
Guest:Because I love him.
Guest:I don't give a shit.
Guest:I don't need anything from him.
Guest:And Warren, I don't know that Warren and I were ever really that close, but I've always adored him and it's always great to see him.
Marc:But what about Bob Altman through his wife?
Guest:oh all his life from the moment i met him yeah and so stupid you know the man gave me a career yeah and and when i didn't want to do the film and then i went back someone you have to go back so i read the script again he told me in the middle of me i'll give you the best part in the picture i didn't know he was hot lips and i just wore red lips my sister always said shut up big lips and your ugly voice but
Guest:So that day I wore red lips.
Guest:And so anyway, I went back so mad at him because I went through and counted the lines.
Guest:I couldn't even find any.
Guest:So I go back to meet him and I go, and he was alone this time before he was in a big room full of people.
Guest:I say, I'm not just a whack.
Guest:I'm a woman.
Guest:And why does she have to leave the film?
Guest:And why couldn't she do this?
Guest:And why couldn't she do that?
Guest:And he said,
Guest:Well, leaning back casually in his chair, why couldn't she?
Guest:You could end up with something or nothing.
Guest:Why don't you take a chance?
Guest:I was like, huh?
Guest:I'd come from TV.
Guest:I did every TV, guested on every TV show from Star Trek to, you know, everything in the 60s.
Marc:So you were almost all television.
Marc:Yes, exactly.
Marc:All episodic stuff.
Guest:And I wanted so much to be in the movies.
Guest:I did one picture with George Pappard when I was thin and I got to dance in front of a fireplace and say, bubby, bubby, bubby.
Guest:And I thought that would rocket me to start him, but no one saw the film.
Guest:It was George Pappard and Elizabeth, actually.
Marc:When did you first start doing the episodic television?
Guest:In the 60s, early 60s, all through the 60s.
Marc:And did you do the Twilight Zone and that kind of stuff?
Guest:I did Two Outer Limits is what started my career.
Guest:God, I can't think of his name.
Guest:Well, have I lived a long time, guys?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Joe Stefano.
Guest:He wrote the screenplay of Psycho, and he saw me in a play where I got the worst reviews, although her wooden betrayal of Stockman's daughter, her fresh beauty, she should get out of the business.
Guest:And why Joe came to see a second play.
Guest:I'll never know, but he goes, your growth is amazing, and I'm going to go blah, blah, blah.
Guest:He sent me a script.
Guest:The part is angry.
Guest:The magic is yours.
Guest:And then it was the last thing that showed.
Guest:And he had me come to a rough cut.
Guest:If you've ever been to a rough cut, you don't ever want to go again.
Guest:No music.
Guest:No nothing.
Guest:No nothing.
Guest:And I thought I was, the way he talked about me, I thought I was going to see Elizabeth Taylor.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Instead, there I was, the geek, you know.
Guest:I raced to Vic Morrow's dressing room on combat.
Guest:You know, I'm not only ugly, I'm untoward.
Guest:And the show didn't show for the whole season.
Guest:It was the last one to show.
Guest:But Joe took out a letter that said, the part is angry.
Guest:Oh, no, that was what he sent me.
Guest:You all know Sally as an actress, but tonight you will see her as a star.
Guest:She really is.
Guest:And a picture of me with stars in my eyes.
Guest:And I never stopped working from that moment on.
Guest:I just went from the Chrysler Hour to Kraft to pilot a Star Trek.
Guest:And he wrote another one for me with Martin Landau in a housecoat, killing this lovely outer space monster.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, so I did all that.
Guest:But now I'm wanting desperately to be in the movies.
Guest:And he's telling me, I'll give you the best part in the picture.
Marc:How did you get the audition with Altman?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:They just called up.
Guest:He wasn't a big deal anyway at that time.
Guest:He'd just done one film.
Guest:I didn't do well.
Guest:And I had an agent, and so they sent me out.
Guest:But it was just love at second sight.
Guest:I mean, I just knew I was home, man.
Guest:You know, because of the learning things, he was not an intellectual.
Guest:But it was like going to a picnic with a genius.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I mean, I'd already done the breakdown scene.
Guest:And when I did it after the shower scene, I mean, none of you have seen it or whatever you have.
Guest:Sure, of course, of course.
Guest:I had this big tantrum with the soap so I was hanging on my face.
Guest:I asked him if I could wash my hair so I wouldn't be staring at the curtain.
Guest:And when I got through, he didn't say cut.
Guest:And I'm like, you know, and furthermore, you should blah, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:And he didn't say cut.
Guest:And then suddenly it just hit me that I was going to lose everything I cared about.
Guest:And I backed out of the tent going, my commission, my commission.
Guest:And he ran around the tent and said, now you can stay in the film.
Guest:You're vulnerable.
Guest:You've changed.
Guest:And he made up everything else.
Guest:And he gave me one of the biggest thrills of my life.
Guest:I got to be a cheerleader.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And me and Elliot Gould and a bunch just went on this thing for Bob's book with Catherine and everybody.
Guest:And they had a retrospective.
Guest:And they showed MASH.
Guest:I hadn't seen it in 30 years.
Guest:And when I saw that cheerleading scene and I heard the colonel saying, oh,
Guest:Hot lips, you're a blithering idiot.
Guest:And I really was.
Guest:I was leaping and jumping.
Guest:And Bob shouting when we're shooting, you know, Sally, when the gun goes off at the half and he's way up over the football field, say my God, they shot him.
Guest:And things like that that I got to do was one of the biggest thrills of my life, just to be that big...
Marc:that's great and that and that changed it was the improv that he kept the camera rolling yeah and and when he saw how you followed through with the emotions of the scene yeah he was like you're a different person and your characters changed and now you're in the movie oh i got to play poker with the guys i got laid you know i got everything yeah that's amazing so in those days they thought it was chauvinistic and you know how could he be so horrible i mean but she she needed it
Guest:she would never have had a life she was so tight because it was her home right that was another thing like working with him he just tossed it when you asked when Donald Southern asked you where you're from tell him you like to think of the army as your home now I'd already done that scene I already you know had a lot of stuff but that was the whole key to the character right it was her home she wasn't just nasty was the only place she had order yeah and that when they when they disrespected it you know it was like yeah that's right right but I can remember it all like it was yesterday
Marc:And he's got sort of a very large reputation.
Marc:Was he funny and just completely charismatic?
Guest:He certainly earned his reputation.
Guest:What did you say?
Guest:He has a very big reputation.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Oh, he can be horrible and so wonderful.
Guest:And, you know, he was unstoppable.
Guest:If they didn't, you know, he'd have a big flop and they'd be honoring him in Cannes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He'd have another big flop and they'd be honoring him.
Guest:He flew me when we were doing Pret-a-Porter, me and Lauren McCall back to L.A., to New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In the middle of shooting to testify for him at this incredible evening at the Lincoln Center, you know.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And I told stories about him, and people laughed a lot.
Guest:And Jack Lemmon says, no one will top you tonight.
Guest:I thought, oh, thank you, Jack.
Guest:And at the end of the thing, when they showed all of Altman's films, you got this sense of what a genius he was.
Guest:Visionary.
Guest:Visionary.
Guest:And afterwards, I go up to him, Bob, this was so fantastic.
Guest:He said, it was your night.
Guest:I go, it wasn't my night, Bob.
Guest:It was yours.
Guest:But we were very close.
Guest:And then, of course, when he asked me, called me when he was making McCabe and Mrs. Miller, will I be in his film after next?
Guest:I go, Bob.
Guest:I'd gone from the geek to everybody telling me I was the greatest.
Guest:Got nominated for Academy Award, Golden Globe, you know, for Hot Lips.
Guest:And I began to believe my own publicity.
Guest:So he calls me, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:And I go, well, if the part is good.
Guest:Bang, he hung up on me and it turned out to be Nashville.
Woo!
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It poked my eye out the thing when I thought of it.
Guest:You know, me, the singer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was a big supporter of my music, and we ended up doing two or three other films and some television, and I was the lips on one of a great pilot he made so far ahead of his time about all this computer age and gates and everything.
Marc:He just kept working, man.
Guest:If they didn't have him here, he'd go to Europe.
Guest:If they didn't like that, he'd go to do an opera.
Guest:My husband is a very successful producer.
Guest:A lot of great films.
Marc:Is he your second husband?
Guest:Yeah, I had one for a year.
Marc:Who was that guy?
Guest:I don't remember, but whoever he was...
Guest:Bless his heart.
Guest:You know, it's not his fault.
Guest:You know, I picked him and, you know, and neither one of us really liked ourselves enough, I think, to make a go of it.
Guest:But my present husband, Jonathan Crane with a K, I've been married to for 35 years.
Guest:35?
Marc:33, yeah.
Marc:That's a good run, huh?
Guest:That's a good run.
Guest:And we were as mad as hatters as he says no one else would have us, you know.
Guest:That's why we're together.
Guest:But we were separated a couple of times.
Guest:We'd had everything from, you know...
Guest:Infidelity to crackers and cheese.
Guest:And we made it through everything.
Marc:What is the key to that, transcending those things?
Guest:Well, for me, I always wanted to see what happened with love.
Guest:I think somewhere deeply that was the bottom line.
Guest:I wanted to see how love grew if you stuck around.
Guest:And my parents were married for 40 years.
Marc:Do you think they went through the same thing?
Marc:Before my dad died.
Guest:No, but he had a quick temper.
Guest:I mean, the worst thing he ever said was, what, the Sam Hill?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and he didn't hit us or anything like that, but I was a little scared.
Guest:Intense, intense.
Guest:Yeah, he was stern and intense, yeah.
Guest:And then funny, and it was a master ceremony.
Guest:You tell him you get all your talent from me, Sam.
Guest:I go, I do, Dad.
Guest:I tell him all.
Marc:It must be so hard to maintain a marriage in this business, like from what I can tell.
Guest:Well, I'm not... Well, and you're serious when you start kissing all the leading ladies, you'll see.
Marc:And all you can say is, I didn't feel anything.
Marc:It wasn't real.
Guest:Oh, yeah, right.
Guest:God, I did something with a guy named... It was a show called Dream On.
Marc:And what did you do with him?
Guest:No, I just being in this bed with him, you know, and now we've been in bed for like five or six hours, you know, and he was funny.
Guest:So that was just, you know, weeping with laughter and horrified and embarrassed and everything else, you know.
Guest:And I end up saying things like, you know, I know you like the other women, you know, more than me.
Marc:I mean, you know, it was just ridiculous.
Guest:You know, it was so silly.
Guest:But I was, I like to say.
Guest:Brian Benben.
Guest:Brian Binbin.
Guest:Yeah, he was great.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:But his wife now has a very successful series.
Guest:Madeline Stowe is his wife.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:She does have a series.
Guest:He is very, very funny and delightful.
Guest:But I like to say, oh, I've been lucky.
Guest:All my nude scenes I've done alone.
Guest:And then I think, huh?
Guest:What have I just said, you know, in the shower and mesh and, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:In the fountain in Brewster McLeod.
Guest:Bob, you know, he'd say, Sally, you know, I was reading the paper how you'd do anything for me.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:How do you like snakes?
Guest:You know, I'd end up, you know, carrying a five-foot boa constrictor, you know.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'd do anything for them.
Marc:Well, what about that whole crew of guys who were, like, in MASH and then showed up?
Marc:Like, Altman, it just seemed like...
Marc:He utilized actors in such a way, and there were so many actors in every movie.
Marc:It felt like, was there a family element to all that, or was it just another film set?
Marc:Because it seems like to sit around with Elliot Gould and Donald Sutherland and Duvall, I mean, was there camaraderie?
Marc:I mean, this is why I think I miss, because I'm not a movie person, obviously.
Marc:I'm not a movie star.
Marc:But it seemed like in your generation of actors, there was camaraderie.
Guest:Well, I mean, there was, but there was also, you know, human beings.
Guest:I mean, like Elliot and Don kept themselves kind of separate.
Guest:Everybody else in that group.
Guest:And now me and Elliot and Tom Skerritt and people, you know, we are.
Guest:Tom Skerritt.
Guest:Yeah, and we love each other.
Guest:And we just, it really is wonderful.
Guest:Me and Elliot have just gotten so close in these last years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and i love it i i love him and uh tom i adore he's always such a warm sweet guy tom scarab but he lives up in seattle or somewhere you know so uh so yes i mean some of these relationships do carry on and some don't you know i mean i worked with robert shaw if he hadn't died i'd have loved him the other day i wow you know what was the best uh what was the best experience you had with altman
Guest:Honey, he was such a character, but you know before, the last time I saw him, and I say in my book that I've had an addiction to grass, you know, and most people who smoke grass go, oh, what is she talking about?
Guest:It's a ludicrous thing I ever heard of.
Guest:But for me it was.
Marc:I know a lot of daily pot smokers who, they don't think of it as an addiction, they just think of it as what I do.
Guest:Exactly, yeah.
Guest:And I heard a younger one, you know, just starting out, yes, I think I have the right, which is what I thought.
Guest:Yes, I work real hard in the daytime, I go to the actor's studio, and then I do it.
Guest:Nice to be able to relax and really relax.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For the first 11 years, I blamed everything that went wrong in my life.
Guest:I weren't smoking so much grass because my friends say, whenever there's anything fun, you're guilty.
Guest:But nonetheless, Milton Wexler, this brilliant shrink that I write about in the book also, said, just hypothetically, I was complaining about this.
Guest:If I said to you, you lived a disciplined life for a year, you'd have just about everything you wanted.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And I quit that day.
Guest:And I quit for 11 years.
Guest:But at the end of that first year, I'd made four movies and met my husband.
Guest:Group therapy, by the way.
Guest:I mean, that's another story.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Group therapy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But anyway, I quit for 11 years.
Guest:And then I quit for four.
Guest:And then I quit for two.
Guest:And I quit for one.
Guest:And I wasn't honest with my twins.
Guest:You know, I had twins at 52.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Guest:About what, the pot?
Guest:About pot, yeah.
Guest:And I always told them not to smoke, that it was addicting and, you know, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:And I know people that smoke right in front of the kids, their kids don't go near it, you know.
Guest:I just, I don't know what the best way to have handled it, but I was always sorry that, you know, perhaps I'd...
Marc:Why, do they smoke a lot of pot?
Guest:Well, no, not so much anymore.
Marc:How old are your twins?
Guest:They just turned 24 yesterday.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:So, or Monday.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:And they're the greatest.
Guest:But I'm just saying that, you know, I just thought I was a...
Guest:coward and if you're going to do something and you think it's cool then you should just find a way to do it not to go in every night hey come on in kids you're four let's have a smoke sure sure well it could have been you know it wasn't uh yeah it's weird with pot because there's always this sort of like well you're not drinking every night you know you're not messy you're not throwing things i'm not falling over showing up like my audition yeah exactly but the thing with bob smoking with bob yeah there was no guilt
Guest:There was no worries.
Guest:It was just fun, fun, fun.
Guest:And the last time I saw Bob, Catherine had fixed one of her lovely, lovely dinners.
Guest:And his stepdaughter, Connie, another great, great girl, Connie Courier.
Guest:And Joan Tewsberry.
Guest:And that was the dinner.
Guest:Connie, Tewsberry, Catherine, me and Bob.
Guest:Well, the only two people smoking were me and Bob.
Guest:So we're like, ah-ha!
Guest:I mean, you know, and with Bobby, you could laugh.
Guest:I mean, many years go by, you don't laugh with grass if you don't, you have a good stop, you know what I mean?
Guest:But we're just laughing at everything.
Guest:And I say, oh, Catherine, look, he's making bird wings with his hands.
Guest:She goes, I know, I've seen it.
Guest:You know, and then we'd laugh twice as hard.
Guest:Oh, my God, you know.
Yeah.
Guest:I think I really quit after that.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I did quit.
Marc:No more?
Guest:No more.
Guest:No, not for me.
Guest:And I don't even know how long it's been, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So it's just... And I know that, you know, there are days and nights I think that would be nice just to really relax and let down.
Guest:But I know for me...
Guest:It means that I'll be going, okay, I can smoke three weeks from tomorrow when I'm finished working.
Marc:That's an addictive brain.
Guest:I could have those, too, and that's the addictive brain.
Guest:I didn't like that.
Guest:I just don't like that anymore.
Marc:You start denying yourself and planning around it.
Guest:Yeah, that's it.
Marc:Yeah, it's crazy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I've been sober a while.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I know that.
Marc:Where you're planning trips around, like, I'm going to have a weekend by myself.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:I can just spend a whole day.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then really one of the times I quit is that somebody called me at 6 o'clock at night and said, you want to go to a movie?
Guest:And I'd had a lovely walk with one of my best friends out in the country, you know, smoking.
Guest:By 6 o'clock I was ready for bed, you know.
Guest:A movie?
Guest:What do you mean a movie?
Guest:I'm done.
Marc:I'm done.
Guest:Yeah, so none of that I liked.
Guest:But I did have a lot of fun at different times.
Marc:Oh, yeah, sounds like it.
Marc:There's a picture in the book of you and Henry Kissinger.
Marc:What was that?
Guest:Oh, I know, speaking of...
Guest:Grass?
Guest:Bob Altman?
Guest:Did you get high on Kissinger?
Guest:Well, what do you mean?
Guest:Wouldn't that be an obvious choice, right?
Guest:Well, I do write again in the book about Jennifer Jones.
Guest:I don't know if you know who she was.
Guest:She was married to David Selznick, and she got an Academy Award for Song of Bernadette, and she was one of the great 40s movie stars.
Guest:Just the most lovely, beautiful, but grew up in that system and being taken care of by David.
Marc:The studio system, yeah.
Guest:Well, and David Selznick, you know, who did Gone with the Wind and, you know, and...
Guest:Ingrid Bergman, and he found all those people and everything, and Jennifer was one of them.
Guest:And I had the good fortune to meet her, because I was a friend of her son, Bobby Walker Jr., and that's when we hung out with Peter Fonda and Dennis Hopper and all kinds of people.
Guest:Did you get high with those guys?
Guest:No.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Sorry, Dennis and Peter.
Guest:I hope I'm not opening up a can of worms.
Guest:And next door was Jane Fonda with Vadim.
Guest:And she was looking like Barbarella with the long blonde hair and speaking.
Guest:Beautiful French.
Guest:And I look like Georgie girl.
Guest:Len Redgrave in Georgie girl.
Guest:But then one day on the beach, this beautiful caftan and a hat comes by, and it's Jennifer, Bobby's wife, and Bobby's mother.
Marc:Yeah, Bobby Walker's mother.
Guest:Bobby Walker Jr.
Guest:'s mother.
Guest:She just said hello, and I was just like spellbound, you know, because I'd grown up watching all those movie stars, you know, in the 40s, you know.
Guest:And the next thing you know, she called me up and asked me if I'd like to come to dinner at her house.
Guest:And she was such a lovely hostess and beautiful.
Guest:The way she could throw a dinner party was just fantastic.
Guest:And then all these people, you know, that made it so special.
Guest:And she would invite me to everything, you know.
Guest:And she was always in my corner.
Guest:So one night she calls up.
Guest:And says, Sally, darling, we're having a dinner party and Henry Kissinger would like you to be his date.
Guest:I said, oh, Jennifer, I would be embarrassed to be seen with him.
Guest:And besides, I'm working for McGovern and picketing the Vietnam War and not the men and women in the Vietnam War.
Guest:No, you have to really be clear on that because we were all picketing it because we wanted everyone to come home alive and not be killed for nothing, you know, for a war that...
Marc:Well, I think the other side, the rights sort of spun it as the hippies were against the soldiers.
Marc:Oh, didn't they?
Guest:It's so sad.
Guest:I mean, Jane, because Jane had felt... She cared about the servicemen and women.
Guest:That's what she did care about.
Guest:She was somebody.
Guest:She may have gotten a little carried away, you know, with thinking she could go over there and solve it.
Guest:I used to think that going up in San Fernando...
Guest:with the Mexicans that I loved, and they were such warm, wonderful people, you know, a couple of guys knifed in the thing, but that happens everywhere.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But when they first started the gangs downtown, I thought, I'll just go down there and say, listen, guys, put away your knives, you know, and everything.
Guest:So, you know, in your head, you know, it can happen.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:But what does a date mean?
Marc:That just means you're... It was platonic, whatever it was, definitely.
Guest:My mother was a good Republican at the time.
Guest:And she sends me this article about he'd been to China.
Guest:Oh, she was so excited.
Guest:And I'm like, my God, how am I going to get in that house and have to say hello to Henry Kissinger?
Guest:So anyway, I walk in the night of the party, and he's sitting there.
Guest:And I go over and say, hi, how's China?
Guest:And he goes, why, did your mother send you an article?
Guest:And I go...
Guest:Yeah, how did you know?
Guest:So I said, damn, you know, I had to like him right away, you know.
Guest:And he did have a, you know, delightful sense of humor, you know, and everything.
Guest:And so we go to this table and there's Rita Hayworth and Joseph Cotton, people sitting around our table, you know, tables.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they start teasing him.
Guest:Did you see MASH?
Guest:No, the president.
Guest:And they said, well, you know, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:So anyway, they kept teasing him.
Guest:And I guess it was just shortly after I'd gotten up.
Marc:So this is by Henry Kissinger at a Hollywood party and everyone's teasing him.
Marc:I love it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, yeah, exactly.
Guest:So now we all stand up at the end of the dinner.
Guest:And he says, Holly, would you like to go with me to the Russian ambassador dinner?
Guest:He's coming here for the first time.
Guest:A historic event.
Guest:And...
Guest:I'm looking at Rita Hayworth and everybody, you know, I'm like, help, you know, no, I can't be seen, you know, what if somebody sees me, you know, and I go, okay, and I didn't want to embarrass him, and I didn't, you know, I didn't know what to do.
Guest:Oh, so you just... I just... Okay.
Guest:You know, what if I say, no, thank you.
Guest:You know, and he's just done this in front of everybody.
Marc:And I just didn't... Oh, he did that out loud in front of... Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Guest:We're all standing on the table when he says it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's still there.
Guest:You know, and I'm like... So...
Guest:And, you know, Henry probably hates me with a passion right now for telling these stories.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:He had a good sense of humor.
Guest:And I ended up liking him.
Guest:And that was the thing.
Guest:As far apart as we were politically in every other way, I did end up really liking him.
Marc:His son's in show business.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:David Kissinger runs Conan O'Brien's company.
Guest:Oh, well, he'll hate me.
Marc:And he was at Universal for a while?
Guest:He'll hate me.
Guest:No.
Guest:But no, so anyway, so before the dinner, he called Sally.
Guest:They were just checking to see.
Guest:And I go, well, Henry, you know what?
Guest:I'm very ambivalent about this because you guys are murderers.
Guest:And he said, well, Sally, I'm sure you don't mean that.
Guest:And I was still such a rebel.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was intimidated by directors and desperate to get a job and everything.
Guest:But Henry Kissinger didn't bother me at all.
Yeah.
Guest:And I said, well, I didn't mean that.
Guest:I wouldn't have put it.
Guest:I just came out of my mouth.
Guest:So anyway, he picked me up and all the way there I'm going, well, why are we in Vietnam?
Guest:Well, Dick, I said, I don't care about Dick.
Guest:Why are you in Vietnam?
Guest:I'm grilling him.
Guest:Whatever his interest in taking me to dinner was, I'm sure it wasn't that.
Marc:I'm sure it wasn't that either.
Guest:Yeah, but I mean, you know, he saw a lot of different actresses.
Guest:I know he loved Jill St.
Guest:John and different people.
Guest:He talked about, oh, she's great, very smart and, you know, nice things.
Guest:But anyway, we went to the dinner and then he asked me to get up and to welcome the ambassador.
Guest:And I'm like, you know, I was hoping not even to be seen.
Guest:And I thought it would be like, you know, 100 people.
Guest:I was like...
Guest:30 it was john wayne and carrie grant and all these people i hear john over in the corner he said we should have gone in and wiped them off the face of the earth he really i really heard him say that really and he was and i really liked him too because he liked women you could tell right away i mean he's very respectful i met him on a mark riddell set of the i forget of some western that they were shooting and uh
Marc:What was Cary Grant like?
Marc:He doesn't strike me as a Republican.
Marc:What was he doing there?
Guest:Oh, I believe he was.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:He was certainly there.
Guest:Maybe he was there like me.
Guest:I don't know what I thought he was.
Marc:It sounded like that Henry was infatuated with Hollywood.
Guest:With Hollywood, I think.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:And he wanted the Russian ambassador because Hollywood is known throughout the world.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Entertainment is what we do well here.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And everybody loves John Wayne and Cary Grant.
Marc:Why not?
Marc:The Russian ambassador comes.
Marc:Look, these are our royalty.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:Of course, and I'm sure Henry, because he could, enjoyed coming to Hollywood and meeting people and things like that.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:So he came to one other dinner down the beach.
Guest:Now I'd moved to a little tiny house.
Guest:I'm talking about the size, not as big as his room, practically.
Marc:Where, Malibu?
Guest:In Malibu, on the old road.
Guest:When he got there, I wasn't ready.
Guest:I had a cocker spaniel.
Guest:And I wet hair.
Guest:I stick my head out and go, come on in, you know, into this little house.
Marc:He comes in.
Guest:I didn't have any crackers or cheese or wine or water, anything for him.
Guest:And I said, I'll be out in a minute.
Guest:It was about 20 minutes later.
Guest:All the time that he sat there in this little tiny room.
Guest:The dog was going, roo, roo, roo, to the Secret Service man.
Guest:So he says, okay, well, let's go.
Marc:The good liberal dog.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's going out to the car.
Guest:I say, no, let's just walk.
Guest:It's just down the thing.
Guest:He goes, Solly, you're trying to ruin me.
Guest:You know, take off.
Guest:She says, well, we did.
Guest:He walked down the beach with me.
Guest:And I guess the Secret Service men were somewhere.
Guest:They were secret.
Guest:And, you know, nice evening with everyone and home and, you know,
Guest:handshake or kiss on the cheek and off he went.
Guest:And I got two wonderful notes from him.
Guest:It said, from Russia with love.
Guest:First time they ever went to Russia.
Guest:That was one postcard.
Guest:And the other one was, sorry, I haven't written lately.
Guest:I've been busy stopping a war.
Guest:What have you been up to?
Guest:And so, anyway, that night in the little house, you're trying to ruin me.
Guest:And he said, Sally, I know you are working for McGovern, but when we win, we will still give you a passport.
Guest:So when they won, I sent a telegram to the White House.
Guest:Dear Henry, all right, I give up.
Guest:You win.
Guest:Do I still get a passport?
Guest:Ring.
Guest:Sally, you're trying to ruin me, you know.
Marc:That was his joke.
Guest:Yeah, and then, you know, because he had a good sense of humor, you know, it makes you, you know, wittier and funnier.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:So, and then he's saying, Sally, the red line is on.
Marc:so i took a beat and so you know who's more important yeah solly you're trying to ruin me so that was my relationship it was totally platonic right he's a very nice guy i wonder if they were trying to like i don't know it seems like he seemed to like the glitz but it's i think that you know after you know in the early 70s and late 60s i imagine that nixon felt that hollywood was against him and they still sort of use that framework you know that that hollywood doesn't is a bunch of lefties and
Marc:I wonder if they were trying to sort of court Hollywood in some way.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:I don't have a clue.
Guest:I mean, I really, and why I certainly wasn't the glitziest one around, so I don't know why.
Guest:But anyway, people always say Marlon Brand or Henry Kissinger.
Guest:I don't quite get that.
Guest:And what did you say?
Guest:Something else.
Guest:Oh, Altman.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, no, it's just like you had some great experiences with it.
Marc:It was great that it must have been amazing to be around that generation of those actors and have that opportunity to having grown up with them and actually be around.
Guest:And then I actually get to sit with them and then Carrie walk away and say,
Guest:Hello, Sally.
Guest:Cary Grant.
Guest:He always announced his name, you know.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Cary Grant.
Guest:He was pretty darn dreamy.
Marc:What was it like working with, like, you know, I'm a comedian and I love Rodney.
Marc:I know you are.
Marc:I love Rodney.
Marc:And you work with Rodney.
Guest:I did.
Marc:Because that's like another role that people remember you for.
Marc:I mean, back to school.
Marc:Back to school.
Marc:It was back to school.
Guest:Yeah, it was.
Marc:Did you like him?
Guest:Oh, I liked him a lot.
Guest:Yeah, because that was my job.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:My job.
Guest:It was the easiest job as an actress I ever had.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All I had to do was love him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And to me, he was no trouble whatsoever.
Guest:And the director really loved his talent and really appreciated him.
Guest:He said, Rodney, plant those feet and speak.
Guest:You know, and this is my one brag that I do in life.
Guest:The director said to me he felt that I helped make Rodney human.
Guest:You know, I mean, you know, believable in a relationship.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:So, but I guess I just had to love him.
Guest:You know, and then be sincere about it.
Guest:Because he was always so... I don't know how I ever forgave him for that hot tub thing with all those swimmers, you know, with a snorkel.
Marc:Well, it was a pretty broad comedy.
Guest:Everybody's waiting to hear why, you know, oh, what was it like working with him?
Guest:Well, the truth is we were not best friends, you know.
Guest:It wasn't like we hung out.
Guest:He was so serious about the work.
Guest:And at night in his robe, he'd be right now working on those jokes.
Guest:The jokes, right.
Guest:People stop me, again, along with, you know, hey, hot lips, I get...
Guest:call me sometime when you got no class, you know, is one of the biggies.
Guest:And that was all Rodney, and it was just so special.
Guest:And my funny story about him.
Guest:But anyway, we'd get into the... I hadn't made a studio film in a while, and they drove us everywhere.
Guest:If they were shooting across the street from my house, we would go together, and they'd drive us across the street.
Guest:You know, that's how they treat us.
Guest:And he'd be in the limo going...
Guest:I don't know how you can stand.
Guest:This is the worst moment of my life.
Marc:This is his first movie.
Marc:I mean, he waited a long time to get that attention.
Guest:Well, he already did Caddyshack.
Guest:And he came in one morning at 6 a.m., all right, I'm stoned.
Guest:And he was always kind of sweating and things like that.
Guest:But one night, so now we've gotten a little chummier, and he was being honored at the airport somewhere.
Guest:So he said, you want to come to the airport?
Guest:They're honoring me.
Guest:I said, sure, I'd love to.
Guest:Thanks so much.
Guest:So he brought a woman, and we're in the backseat of a limo and have a drink and that kind of thing.
Guest:But on the way home,
Guest:I just thought, well, this is really nice.
Guest:I said, you know, Rodney... Well, I guess I should preface it.
Guest:You know, he was a nightclub guy.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:He had nightclubs in Vegas.
Guest:That was his thing.
Guest:So I said to him in the car, you know, Rodney, you're going to have to come up to the house one night and have dinner with Jonathan and me.
Guest:Well, the look on his face...
Guest:Because I'd rather get in a helicopter and jump than come to your house and have a nice quiet dinner, you know.
Marc:Completely shocked.
Marc:What, are you kidding me?
Marc:Yeah, right.
Guest:The look on him, he didn't say it, but the look on his face was, oh my God.
Guest:I have chuckled about that.
Marc:Like it was completely out of the realm of possibility.
Guest:Possibility?
Guest:How could I have so misjudged?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Me, it was, you know...
Marc:That he was a person that would have dinner at someone's house.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Where are we at now?
Marc:What are you doing?
Marc:You got the book out, and you're singing.
Guest:All right, and I'm singing.
Marc:And you're acting in my show.
Guest:And I'm acting in your show.
Marc:And I wanted to thank you for that.
Marc:It was very nice of you.
Marc:Like when you did the walking thing, and you were on the phone, and then you actually came over to the house, and you were in the other room when I was on the phone, and you did the lines with me, and that was very nice.
Marc:You didn't have to do that.
Guest:oh no i was happy to do it and uh and just so thrilled i mean you have so many fans so many people that just love you to death so now i'm one oh thank you and uh so that's really great maybe next season we'll do more of those that do you can be my mom again yeah i think you better have me as the mom i'm just like your mom a little bit am i well my mom's got the crazy food thing too
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:How did you know?
Guest:Did I say something about crazy?
Guest:Oh, yeah, from when I was younger, yeah.
Marc:She's got the exact same thing.
Guest:I'm really crazy now, too.
Guest:And I'm just now, I'm trying to gain weight.
Guest:I said to my husband about, oh, a year or so ago, and I said, Jonathan, do you think I'm too thin?
Guest:That's a loaded question.
Guest:Do you think I'm too thin?
Guest:Because, you know, when people get older and your face gets too thin and then you look too old and everything, do you think he said it?
Guest:Darling, I've just spent the last 25 years worrying whether you're too fat.
Guest:I'm not sure I can do the next 25 worrying whether you're too thin.
Guest:And this week I lost weight and I don't know why.
Guest:And I saw it last night.
Guest:I had two big dishes of chocolate ice cream with marshmallow sauce.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then a big hamburger sandwich that I made myself.
Guest:I was so full.
Guest:I think I couldn't sleep a wink, you know, because I try to eat nourishingly, you know, with the candy bar and the cookies.
Marc:Isn't it fun, though, when you actually allow yourself the freedom to eat like that?
Marc:Isn't it fun?
Guest:Yeah, it was fun, I must say.
Guest:That first dish of ice cream, because I always get low-fat yogurt, you know, ice cream, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Guest:And I thought I went right when I heard when I got on the scale.
Guest:Oh, I'm going right to, you know, Ralph's and get a hug and a chocolate ice cream.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:The richest guy.
Guest:The richest, yeah.
Marc:Well, you look great.
Marc:Oh, thank you.
Marc:And thanks for talking to me.
Guest:Thank you for having me.