BONUS Extra Michael Morris
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Marc:Hey folks, welcome to the bonus material.
Marc:This is the rest of my conversation with Michael Morris.
Marc:Some of you who have listened to the show with Michael Morris know that he's the director of Two Leslie.
Marc:So we synced up that conversation to kind of coincide with the release of the movie, which I am in.
Marc:But because we were all filled up with guests in October, we just did a short interview.
Marc:But we did talk...
Marc:for kind of a long time.
Marc:It was a longer interview than the portion of it that we put up.
Marc:We talked like twice as long as that than what we aired on the episode.
Marc:So now you can hear the rest.
Marc:And if you haven't listened to the other part of this, you can go to the...
Marc:Bela Fleck episode and Michael Morris is the first part of that so with this part of it this extra 20 minutes or so of my talk with Michael we get into his earlier career a bit including the tv shows he's been part of and we talked more about to Leslie so if you want you can always save this until after you've seen the movie some of this is a bit of a deep dive into the film so now you have two
Marc:You have the short interview I did on the Bela Fleck episode last week, and now you have the rest of the conversation that took place that same day.
Marc:But again, go see the movie, To Leslie.
Marc:See it in a theater near you if you can, or order it on demand.
Marc:It's a deep movie, and it's powerful, and there's some amazing acting in it.
Marc:I'm not talking about myself.
Marc:I did all right, but...
Marc:Andrea Riceboro.
Marc:Whoa.
Marc:All right.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:How much theater did you direct?
Guest:All the way through school and university, I was directing plays as often as I could.
Guest:I'd take them up to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival and do them up there.
Guest:And then afterwards, I came to London.
Guest:I lived in London.
Guest:I came back to London to direct.
Guest:And it wasn't an easy world to get into, to be honest.
Guest:So I ended up working for theaters.
Guest:And I was working for an amazing woman who owned theaters in London and ended up
Guest:running the old Vic Theatre I was when I was 23 years old.
Guest:So it was kind of an early stage to be at such a beautiful, big theatre.
Guest:But I realised a couple of years into that, that here I was, climbing this mountain, in a way, and doing all right.
Guest:And I realised...
Guest:god it's the wrong mountain i'm climbing you know i don't want to be running an administrator yeah it was like and i was directing as well you know converted the rehearsal room into a into a black box theater and i was doing stuff when i could but it just wasn't so it needed a change and actually that change was me coming to america and moving to new york and and
Guest:to direct plays yeah i met um mary who's who's my wife we met in london and and she lives here she's an actress and uh and so that was the kick that that i needed and it was just perfect you know she was moving here after a year or so i was like i'm moving as well and i got to this is what america offers is is a chance to sort of to clarify do you know what i mean and so i moved here and i only directed from there on a lot of plays yeah the whole i did a season of plays
Guest:In and around New York.
Guest:And then a couple of plays at Israel Horowitz's theater, actually, in Gloucester, Mass.
Guest:But I did a new Terrence McNally play.
Guest:I did a play at the Cherry Lane.
Guest:I did a play here, actually, in Culver City at the Kirk Douglas.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:yeah, Robbie Bates play.
Guest:Robbie Bates is a great playwright.
Guest:And so when did you start doing the TV?
Guest:It was just all organic.
Guest:It was this play that we did, Robbie and I, was seen by some folks that I think, you know, ABC came to the opening night and they said, oh, that would be great.
Guest:We'd love to have a show that was like a bit like that.
Guest:And Robbie and I and Ken Olin put together this show called Brothers and Sisters, which was a while ago now, but it was my, it was the only way I got involved.
Guest:I was very lucky, you know, and I ended up
Guest:Working with all the directors and the actors that we had and it was great car So how long did that go on for that shows five years?
Marc:See that's where that you created it.
Guest:Yeah, I'll co-create it with it You know, it's a Robbie Bates show you three you have to use your words carefully because everything is you know something Yeah, but it's a Robbie Bates show, but Robbie and I wrote wrote it together That's nice.
Guest:Yeah, it was it was it was beyond I mean it was making a living I
Guest:How lucky is that?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So you were able to direct and produce and eventually thanks to Ken Erlin helped me help me break through there.
Guest:And and yeah, and I ended up directing a ton of them and and learning and editing a ton of them with with all these great people that we had.
Guest:It was a huge film school.
Guest:It was like a five year film school.
Marc:That's how you learn.
Marc:That's how I mean, I knew going into Marin, my show, which you seem to enjoy that, you know, there was going to be a learning curve.
Marc:And I had no experience, you know, with that type of acting or that much acting.
Marc:So I just knew I'm like, all right, well, I'm probably have to take a hit the first year.
Marc:First season is going to be might be might be dicey.
Marc:I've seen it happen to my peers, but I got to suck it up and just do the best I can.
Guest:Did you think that you were gonna play, do you think it was gonna be easy playing yourself?
Guest:Was the idea that you would just be you the way that you are on this show or in your life?
Marc:Yeah, I don't know.
Marc:I knew that by nature of who I was writing with, you know, it was a very low budget affair.
Marc:And the writing room was small.
Marc:I actually hired showrunners that were a team just so I could have two of them for the price of one.
Marc:But they were efficient and decent guys.
Marc:I had a couple other guys.
Marc:So it was really always kind of... I don't know that it was visionary and it was based very specifically on my life, but just the way that the writing started to unfold was that it wasn't totally sitcom-y, but there's a limitation to that stuff.
Marc:So you're dealing with 22-minute shows.
Marc:So this character has to be defined and there are touching moments, but it was definitely obviously didn't encapsulate all of me.
Guest:No.
Guest:So you end up acting, you know, it's like if the pitch originally was like, hey, we're going to put a camera on Mark and he's really funny and we're just going to follow him around with his crazy friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's not it exceeded that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Way beyond that.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:No, no, we knew that.
Marc:And I was pulling for my real life, so some of it was heavy.
Marc:But, you know, the departure in the fourth season where I relapsed, I think that's where some real acting might have started to happen.
Guest:I mean, the reveal at the beginning of the fourth season was still one of my... I mean, that was so beautiful.
Guest:The storage unit?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's brilliant.
Guest:That's brilliant storytelling.
Marc:So brutal.
Marc:And we had to sort of let go of a lot of funny funny.
Marc:Because there were bits in that part where I'd be walking by another guy who's also staying in another unit with his shit bucket.
Marc:And we were like, you know, it's going to take away from this.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, well, yeah, I appreciate that.
Marc:But in terms of learning on the job, so then you went on to do Better Call Solve.
Guest:Yeah, then things, you know, I got very lucky because I started in television here in America just by coincidence as the golden age of television started.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The new one, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, this new one.
Guest:I mean, I think it's partly because all the TVs got really beautiful and big and flat and widescreen.
Marc:Yeah, and no one was... The type of movies that were once grown-up movies became less and less, and actors were willing to do... Yeah, before you know it, it's what they say, the cinema of the 70s is alive and well on TV.
Guest:I know they said that.
Guest:I like it.
Marc:But so what were your primary... Because you were on Solve for all three seasons.
Guest:No, I did...
Marc:Four, five, and six.
Guest:Were it six seasons?
Guest:Six seasons, yeah.
Marc:I got to catch up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, watch it.
Guest:It's good.
Guest:I got to watch.
Guest:I think I'm up to speed except for the last season.
Guest:Because you were watching.
Guest:What were you watching when we were shooting?
Guest:You were watching Breaking Bad, weren't you?
Guest:Again, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So if you've done that recently... I've watched all of Saul's, just not the last one.
Marc:Oh, the last one.
Marc:The last season.
Marc:I think you'll like it.
Marc:And what was you doing before Saul?
Marc:Was there another... Yeah, I did.
Guest:I'm really lucky.
Guest:I've done a bunch of stuff that I loved.
Guest:I did a lot of this really low-budget and somewhat obscure show, which I recommend, called Kingdom, which is all set in the world of MMA gyms.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:A really beautifully made show.
Guest:That's one I love.
Guest:I did...
Guest:But House of Cards, a great show called Halt and Catch Fire that was also for AMC, a show called Preacher that was for AMC as well.
Guest:I directed a pilot for this thing, a really cool show for Netflix called Lock and Key based on these comic books that...
Guest:These are cult comic books.
Guest:Yeah, it's been a pretty fulfilling run.
Marc:So eventually you knew that you were going to have to make your first feature at some point.
Guest:I'd been reading for a long while, but I was really annoying to all my reps or whatever because they would send these really interesting scripts over and just nothing really spoke to me.
Guest:And I didn't have much time anyway, but I've always wanted to do it.
Guest:But I just knew in me that I would know when the right one came.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But the benefit is you certainly had the chops at this point.
Guest:Yeah, it helped.
Guest:I tell you, with the schedule that we have, we had 19 days.
Guest:On film.
Guest:On film.
Guest:All on location, all on film.
Guest:Moves and everything.
Guest:Losing the light.
Guest:I think having that level of experience on a time pressure TV set was really helpful.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So how do you get this script?
Marc:It just came through?
Guest:It just came.
Guest:I think if you've been doing this for more than five or six years, the people that you've worked with before, if you leave a decent... It seems like I had good relationships with a lot of the people that I worked with back on that show, Brothers and Sisters.
Guest:Ali Day, who's a casting director, was an associate for us.
Guest:Six or seven years later,
Guest:Literally, I mean, with no contact in between, said, I just thought of you when I read this script that came to me.
Guest:And she ended up being our casting director and one of the producers on the movie.
Guest:It was just perfect.
Marc:Yeah, and I just thought, like, what I was saying before, earlier, about...
Marc:spaces and and whatnot like once i agreed to do it it was really me saying to myself well if i'm gonna if i'm gonna do acting like if i'm gonna take it seriously or or or not just kind of like uh just do me every time i've got to apply some of this stuff i talk to actors all the time i you know i'm i'm taking lessons all the time from people yeah that's great
Marc:But there was decisions.
Marc:The accent thing was something I was scared of.
Marc:The idea that this guy was devoid of a certain neurotic energy.
Marc:He's more centered in his own way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, no, totally.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But also letting her...
Marc:you know, have the space that she needs to do that stuff.
Marc:And it was all about reacting and showing up and listening to her.
Marc:I knew the position I was in, both as I knew it was her movie to a degree, but I also knew that, you know, the relationship was sort of like that.
Guest:Yeah, I think that's true, but as a result of that, I try and stay out of what people are saying about the movie as much as I can, but these days you're bombarded with things, so I do see some of it.
Guest:And I think one of the things that people are struck with is that...
Guest:By allowing her the space to have her movie, as it were, it becomes both of your movies.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:People really have responded to that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That it actually does, you know, a lot of times you keep the center of the movie, you know, first person all the way through, but that it expands as she lets you in.
Guest:And I love that.
Marc:Yeah, no, absolutely.
Marc:I just felt like I wasn't saying that in a diminishing way, but I'm also, you know...
Marc:When you work with somebody like that, I don't know why I wasn't really nervous by the time I showed up.
Marc:And I wasn't nervous before really either.
Marc:I don't know what that is.
Marc:It's a good thing.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:There wasn't time for that.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:And I kind of knew that.
Marc:I'm like, any time I had a minor problem, I was sort of like, should I ask him if we can do it again or whatever?
Marc:I'm like, he knows.
Marc:He's a director.
Marc:If he wants to do it again, it's all right.
Marc:And I think really in watching it, there was only one...
Marc:that could have held longer and it bothers me.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Well, yeah, just like where I kind of, I think I jumped the feeling a little bit.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Marc:I mean, because that's what I can tell.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I can lock right into whatever it was.
Marc:I'm trying to remember when it was
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It was minor.
Guest:Tell me it's not in the scene when you're in the shack with her.
Guest:No, no, no.
Marc:I think it might have been right before.
Marc:It was during the time where she's like, we're going to do it.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That scene out there.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:No, it wasn't.
Marc:No, I thought that all the other stuff was paced pretty well.
Marc:I don't really have, I feel good about it.
Guest:Well, speaking of the pacing, I mean, that's the thing that I think I was lucky because coming out of television where even in the really good shows that I've done, you always have to edit to time.
Guest:I mean, that's just a requirement, whether it's strict or not.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so the easiest way to edit for time is usually just to reduce pauses, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It would not be difficult to take a lot of time out of this film.
Guest:And we could take 30 minutes out of it just by shrinking.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it was absolutely part of my ambition for this movie was to allow the moments.
Guest:And it's up to the audience whether they go with it or if they respond well or poorly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I wanted the moments to feel real.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The transitions.
Guest:I didn't want any thoughts to.
Guest:She does a lot of thinking.
Guest:She's not a woman in any kind of organized sobriety.
Guest:Right.
Guest:She doesn't have.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Except for Sweeney.
Guest:She doesn't have a community of she doesn't have a language to discuss.
Marc:She's working angles, too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So exactly.
Guest:So it's not like she's going to a meeting and understanding what she's got to go through.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So really, this shrinks down to listening to Willie Nelson and putting a thought in her head that she can't escape.
Guest:And then later, when your character puts the suitcase, finding the photos of her son and having a thought that is like, I'm going to try this.
Marc:And you were right up on it, too.
Marc:And by shooting on film, aside from making it a pretty lean and mean experience as an actor, it's just really, really kind of...
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's sort of amazing because I like to work like I believe, you know, not improvising, but but, you know, the first gut like that, the energy that happens in the first take or when you're doing a joke for the first time, you know, it adds a lot of depth to it somehow and a lot of urgency to it.
Marc:So, I mean, I don't remember doing more than
Guest:three takes ever oftentimes we didn't especially in the in because because you and andre were present for like that was that was the schedule wise the hardest part of the movie because we had the the motel for i don't know five days or something right me and roya who was great uh he was great and the two of you actually were right from the start i was so i was so happy because you know there's a lot of risk involved pair people up and you guys supposedly had been friends and you know co-workers for forever yeah i get them
Guest:You got him.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And there was room for each other.
Guest:In fact, I think that's why the cast gelled so well, is that there was room for all these different kinds of energy.
Guest:She had a particular type.
Guest:You had a type.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And no one was kind of stepping on each other's toes and trying to sort of establish, oh, no, I'm the guy who's dry and funny, or I'm the guy who's wacky.
Marc:Yeah, we're kind of going with it.
Marc:I don't know that we'd ever worked together, but I talked to him.
Marc:We became friends.
Marc:How did that happen?
Marc:I didn't know that.
Marc:I don't think I knew that.
Marc:I mean, he did my show.
Marc:I was a big fan of his work.
Marc:And then he lived by me.
Marc:And we became friends.
Marc:Unless I'm really losing my mind.
Marc:We just kind of understood each other somehow.
Guest:Yeah, I love him.
Marc:I felt like I knew him.
Marc:I definitely felt comfortable with him, and we could bust each other's balls, and it was good.
Marc:He's a really warm human being.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, and Livewire.
Guest:Livewire, yeah, which is great, right?
Guest:Because, I mean, that was important for me.
Guest:I certainly am not... I've been different kinds of directors on different kinds of projects, and I think that's important.
Guest:You have to sort of work to the text that you have, right?
Guest:Sometimes it's very controlled, and the palette's controlled in the frame.
Guest:This was all about witnessing something.
Guest:I loved it when Andre did something nuts.
Guest:Or like I've said to you before, you were so in the moment.
Guest:They say it, right?
Guest:Acting is reacting.
Guest:And that's what this movie is.
Marc:Well, it's weird.
Marc:That hug in his underwear.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:That wasn't scripted.
Guest:It was, to me... Was it?
Guest:I think it was.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Because I wanted it to be that part of this story was she's a chaos agent, right?
Guest:So every chapter of this, it's a weird little road movie, this.
Guest:It goes from place to place to place.
Guest:And each chapter...
Guest:She ends up on the outside of something witnessing devastation, whether it's looking through the window and seeing the police come, or whether it's Dutch and Nancy screaming at each other through the window.
Guest:And now it's this.
Guest:This beautiful thing that she stumbled into, this life that these two men had sort of made, is like destroyed.
Guest:It's chaos again.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He loves to run around and be free and he has a freedom.
Guest:That's Royal's character.
Guest:And that's interrupted and Sweeney's upset and they're commiserating and she's done it.
Guest:And I think that's important.
Marc:And I think that the one thing that really sticks with me in watching the movie is that, you know, she...
Marc:is not empathetic.
Marc:She's not an empathetic character for a lot of it because of that thing that alcoholics have, which is sort of like, what about me?
Marc:And in all the fucking pain they're causing, in all the fucking lying and stealing and insane bullshit,
Marc:they're still sort of like, well, what are you doing for me?
Marc:I'm the victim.
Marc:And she really committed to that emotionally.
Marc:She knew she had to hide it to do her hustle, but when it came out, it was very authentic.
Guest:Yeah, she has that line, doesn't she?
Guest:I mean, it's so painful, that scene where her son has found the bottles and he just looks in such pain.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's looking at her and she goes, what about me?
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:In that moment.
Marc:It's the worst kind of sickness.
Marc:And it's interesting because with Allison's character too, she's like, why didn't you do anything to stop me?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:But it's odd that Jani's character owns that later.
Guest:Although I think because conventional wisdom, and I think properly and for good reason, understands that no one can stop you.
Guest:But I don't know that they understand that.
Marc:No, I think that's true.
Marc:And I think it was more layered and complex, sort of a way to build a bridge.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:At that time.
Guest:And she knew as well that she wasn't going to give in on everything.
Marc:Right.
Guest:She was going to say, screw you for this.
Marc:Screw you for that.
Marc:Well, let's not give away the whole thing.
Marc:But I do feel like it ended in a great place.
Marc:And the look of it is great.
Marc:And it was surprising to me.
Marc:That was another reason why I did it.
Marc:It's like, so what is it, two weeks and it's down the street?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Sort of.
Guest:Sort of.
Guest:I had a panic because we hadn't been able to lock down the motel when I spoke to you.
Marc:Was that like Santa Clarita?
Guest:It was Lancaster or somewhere.
Guest:And I think I had told you on the phone that it was going to be like 30 minutes away or 35 minutes away max.
Guest:And it turned out to be longer.
Guest:It was probably about an hour's drive.
Guest:I was worried.
Guest:I was worried that you were going to go, this is bullshit.
Marc:So much of...
Marc:me doing that at that point is it's really just fear.
Marc:Like, you know, if I were to get hung up on that, which I'm sure I did, I would have to sit there and say, like, why is this?
Marc:What are you doing?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:What do you got going on in the middle of COVID?
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it really just sort of it takes a lot for me to wrestle myself into a yes, just because I get that it's fear.
Marc:But but ultimately,
Marc:Going out there, it's interesting because it's in the desert and there's a base out there.
Marc:And Frank Zappa and Captain Beefheart actually kind of grew up out there.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I just learned that.
Marc:And I was sort of like, oh, this is a weird part of this desert.
Marc:But those old motels, we shot at one somewhere in Sunnyvale for Glow, the Glow Hotel.
Marc:I think we're just fortunate.
Marc:Usually with those kind of weird old motor hotels, there's at least one or two people living in them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And was there?
Marc:There were.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, there were.
Guest:And they were great.
Guest:The hotel were great.
Guest:There were certain rooms that we couldn't go in.
Guest:But I think that the people had agreed to be relocated for that week.
Guest:But it was pretty...
Guest:It was a real place.
Guest:I mean, our production designer did an amazing job making the spaces that we shot.
Marc:Oh, I knew in my office that most of that was a real place, wasn't it?
Guest:Yeah, except she did incredible stuff in that office.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Like the way you guys are eating the TV dinner, listen to the music.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:She made that.
Guest:That was just a very bland sort of- Sure.
Guest:But the jackalope?
Guest:Yeah, we put all the jackalopes in.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh, I didn't know that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, we wanted that.
Marc:They look pretty authentic.
Marc:What about that key box?
Marc:The key box was real.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah, the key box was real.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I had turned the mics off and then you told me that you know my old friend Steve Brill.
Marc:Steve Brill.
Marc:The director.
Marc:How do you know Steve Brill?
Guest:Steve Brill was all the best people in my life I know through my wife.
Guest:So Steve Brill and his wife Ruth Arna are really good friends.
Guest:I met them through Mary.
Marc:So he came and saw the movie?
Marc:He came and saw the movie at a screening the other day.
Guest:A week ago.
Guest:We did a UTA, the agency.
Marc:Nothing.
Marc:I heard nothing.
Guest:I heard nothing from him.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:What did he say?
Guest:Well, listen, Steve, you should be saying it yourself.
Guest:But he came and he was blown away by it.
Guest:He said he was completely...
Guest:Mark is acting.
Guest:He's really acting.
Guest:This is a real acting performance.
Guest:This is a real thing.
Guest:And he was, I think, genuinely moved by the movie.
Guest:I hate speaking for other people, but I think he should get on here and tell you himself.
Guest:But I had no idea you knew each other.
Marc:But we know each other from acting, in a way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He said that you did, what was the play, the night of January 16th?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it's an Enron play, right?
Marc:Isn't that the one?
Marc:And the night of January?
Marc:I think so.
Marc:I can't remember.
Marc:Who did that play?
Marc:But yeah, we did that play for stage troupe.
Marc:And then him and I wrote one act.
Marc:that we produced at Derek Walcott's theater.
Marc:Oh, yeah, he was talking about Derek Walcott.
Guest:I used to be obsessed.
Guest:Talking about poems, Omaros was a huge thing for me.
Marc:Yeah, I took his class.
Marc:Steve was a year ahead of me.
Marc:We started doing comedy together.
Guest:He's how I started doing comedy.
Guest:It's two parts of my life that I had no idea had any connection.
Marc:Him and I were estranged for many, many years for a lot of different reasons.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But, and I get, we're okay now.
Marc:Okay, good.
Marc:Kinda.
Marc:You know, we don't hang out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, but, you know, it was just one of those things.
Marc:I went my way and he went his.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, there's just weird things happening.
Marc:Resentments, show business.
Marc:I was kind of an angry, fucked up guy and he was a very together, ambitious, focused guy.
Marc:It happens.
Marc:That happens in non-show business friendships.
Marc:But I, it's just interesting.
Marc:Like he didn't, didn't give me a little text.
Marc:Yeah, Steve, what are you thinking?
Marc:What are you thinking?
Marc:Well, I'm glad I got it from you.
Marc:I'm glad he saw it and he liked it.
Marc:He did.
Marc:Okay.