BONUS Wrestling With Marc - The Professional
Marc:So here we are, wrestling fans and people who are amazed that I am now someone who has experienced wrestling.
Marc:I watched my first wrestling matches on my couch, AEW matches with Brendan McDonald.
Marc:And I learned a lot.
Marc:And then he told me that...
Marc:I didn't know it was coming.
Marc:We were just talking about wrestling.
Marc:And he said Chris Jericho would be coming to my house in like an hour.
Marc:And he was going to kind of tell me what it was like to spend his whole life, his whole adult life,
Marc:in professional wrestling.
Marc:And he did.
Marc:So if you don't know, Chris Jericho is an eight-time world champion in promotions all over the world, in Canada, in Japan, in Mexico.
Marc:He was in WWE and is now in AEW.
Marc:I saw him... Well, he didn't...
Marc:He didn't wrestle, he did one of those things where he and his guys argued with some other guys.
Marc:So this was recorded the day before we saw AEW Dynamite at the forum in Los Angeles.
Marc:So this is me talking to Chris Jericho.
Marc:Dino did ACDC.
Marc:So what was he?
Marc:Is he a big talker, Angus, or not really?
Guest:So they don't ever really do press.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And because that record came out and they couldn't tour on it, they were doing a lot of press.
Guest:It was Brian and Angus together.
Guest:So they're both excellent storytellers.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But Angus takes his time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You really got to fucking...
Guest:pay attention to what he's saying.
Guest:Is he slow?
Guest:He's a slow talker.
Guest:But yeah, I mean, it was a great, great interview, but you really have to, you know, Angus has such a thick accent, Brian has such a thick accent, you know, but there was a great story they told of when Malcolm pulled a knife on Geezer Butler when they were on tour in the 70s.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Because Geezer was a bully, so Malcolm pulled a knife on him.
Guest:It's like, what a great story.
Marc:That's an Angus story, not a Brian story.
Marc:Yeah, it's an Angus story, yeah.
Marc:yeah those guys are great i love them i i mean i you know i still listen to them all the time oh me too so what's your band is uh fozzy fozzy yeah and you're and you're serious you're serious rocker dude we got a gold record we got a fucking gold record last year i always had a question about that though did you did you guys start out intentionally as like a was it a like a tribute band it was like it was
Guest:It was almost like, no, it was almost like an original, the original Steel Panther type thing.
Guest:We did all covers.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Backstory and characters and that sort of thing.
Guest:But then that was only the first couple years.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And you started it when, right?
Guest:Late 90s?
Guest:Yeah, like 2000.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But about 2009 is when we said, let's just do this and see how far we can get with it.
Guest:Let's go all the way with it, you know?
Guest:So you're writing songs?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:All originals now?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We have five consecutive top 10 on rock radio right now.
Guest:So...
Guest:come on yeah seriously seriously dude yeah and our song judas like i said we literally got a gold record now here's the funny thing a gold record is 500 000 units sold right in this day and age though it's a combinations of units sold and streams okay so to get 500 000 equivalent sales you need 75 million streams so that helps so they both help yeah they both help but 75 million streams equal 500 000 sales what a ripoff
Marc:Yeah, but just on the financial level, but I would think just on the numbers, too, right?
Guest:Just the numbers, yeah, exactly.
Marc:Trying to get them?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, as Brennan told you, I started in a wrestling-themed TV show.
Marc:Yeah, I loved it.
Marc:Glow.
Marc:Oh, thanks, yeah.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:But my character didn't need to know about wrestling, and I've continued that.
Yeah.
Marc:You know, I was in the wrestling world for a while.
Marc:And certainly, you know, I've interviewed a few wrestlers.
Marc:I learn more as we go along.
Marc:But this is really the first time tomorrow that I'm going to go to the show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Now, do you guys all converge on this place together or you meet here?
Marc:Like, how do you travel as wrestlers?
Guest:Okay, so it's a weekly show every Wednesday all across the country.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So usually everyone flies in like on a Tuesday night and then we do the show on Wednesday and people leave on Thursday.
Marc:So you just go have your lives and this is your job.
Guest:You do.
Guest:And this week was different though because we had last Wednesday was Seattle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then we went to Portland on Friday.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then we have Wednesday here in LA.
Guest:So a lot of people just stayed out here.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Well, there's stuff to do here.
Guest:Well, yeah, and rather than traveling back and forth, that's a long flight to go back and forth.
Marc:And how were the shows on the last week?
Guest:Well, they were great.
Guest:So we've never... First time in Seattle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:First time in Portland.
Guest:And this will be our second time in L.A.
Guest:with this company tomorrow.
Guest:So it's great when you go to a new city because the people have never seen you before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So they're always crazier.
Guest:They're always loud and...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Usually, usually sell the most tickets in a market the first time you go.
Guest:And then you have to, you know, if you put on a great show, then people will come back like in LA.
Guest:We sold out the first show.
Guest:We didn't sell it tomorrow night, but there's still going to be over 10,000 sold.
Guest:So that's a great, that's a great night.
Marc:But you don't worry about people not coming back.
Marc:I mean, what is it?
Guest:Sometimes, I mean, but like, you know, we go to certain markets where you're just there like every three or four months and then you start to burn it out.
Guest:So you got to get away from it for a while, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Because it's the same crew?
Marc:You guys are doing different matches?
Guest:It is, but just, I mean, it's like anything else.
Guest:If you're a rock and roll band, ACDC, you can't go to LA every month.
Guest:I'll skip this week.
Guest:I mean, it's like, think about your tours, too.
Guest:Right, your comedies.
Guest:You have noticed, like, you'll go to a place, and then if you go back, you're like, oh, I can't do the same stuff.
Guest:I can't.
Marc:Well, that's it.
Marc:But like, you know, I mean, but I it's, you know, but I have to write a whole new act.
Marc:It would seem that the stories are the matches of this, you know, the evolution of characters within the.
Guest:I think the best way is to go to a market like like twice a year, unless it's a New York or an L.A., then maybe three times a year.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:That's what you should be doing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because, you know, to play the big venues like this, I mean, like I said, that's a good way to keep the product fresh.
Guest:And plus, yes, you're always doing new matches and newer, because even if you're not in the same city, our show is every Wednesday night live.
Guest:So you have to hook people with the storylines, much like GLOW.
Guest:What happens this week leads to next week, leads to the week after that, drama, you know, all that sort of thing.
Guest:So how long have you been in it now?
Guest:32 years.
Guest:And you seem well.
Guest:I feel well, but I lost my fucking mind 15 years or 20 years ago.
Guest:But yeah, 32 years in the biz.
Marc:And physically you can still take it.
Marc:I just watched a match from a couple weeks ago.
Marc:One was that from New Jersey.
Guest:Yeah, we watched Full Gear this morning.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And so we watched your four-way.
Guest:The four-way, gotcha.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, like, let's see, about 10 years ago, I started doing yoga.
Guest:Really?
Guest:That helped out a lot.
Guest:Did it?
Guest:It really did.
Guest:I don't do it now, but that was kind of the gap that bridged for me to continue to do this.
Guest:Because before that, it's a lot of weightlifting and how much you bench.
Marc:So no stretching?
Marc:You weren't stretching properly?
Guest:I wasn't stretching.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now I don't really weightlift anymore.
Guest:I do a lot of kickboxing now.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:A lot of cardio stuff.
Guest:I really watch my diet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I lost a lot of weight earlier this year.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:about 30 pounds.
Guest:So that kind of helped a bit as well.
Guest:So yeah, as you get older, you have to just morph your training and how you live.
Marc:Yeah, I'm trying to do it myself.
Marc:So you stopped lifting just because it was counterproductive?
Guest:I guess.
Guest:I mean, like I said, when I had a really bad back issue that yoga helped me through, and yoga was a really physical transformation just from doing that.
Marc:You feel your core lock in.
Guest:Your core locks in, even the different muscles that you use and all that sort of thing.
Guest:There's a lot of kind of isometrics in this yoga approach.
Guest:You're basically lifting weights without lifting weights.
Guest:You're slowly moving your arms back and forth, which gives you a pump, that sort of stuff.
Guest:So that kind of took me away from the weight training.
Guest:I'm really hurting my joints now.
Guest:My shoulders are kind of fucked.
Guest:My knees are kind of fucked.
Guest:But if I don't lift weights, I don't put extra strain on them.
Guest:So that helps, you know?
Marc:Yeah, I'm finding the joint thing is happening.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:As you get older, it's a thing.
Marc:Like I'm 59 and I just started like a year or so.
Marc:In the last year, the joints.
Guest:And for me, the stretching of the yoga really helped with all of that stuff.
Marc:Yeah, I just started doing it again.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The balance is a bitch.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:One leg up, one leg behind, falling all the time.
Guest:It's embarrassing sometimes.
Guest:But, you know, I did never stretch, ever, never stretch.
Guest:And I couldn't even bend over and touch my toes.
Guest:Oh, that's bad.
Guest:And, like, as a pro athlete, why am I not doing this?
Guest:You got to stretch.
Guest:So, yeah, so it really made a difference.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So when you started, where were you?
Guest:So I started in, I'm from Winnipeg, Canada.
Guest:You're Canadian?
Guest:I'm Canadian, yeah.
Guest:You lucky fuck.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can just leave.
Guest:I can just leave whenever the fuck I want.
Guest:Oh, that's the best.
Guest:I go on both sides of the border.
Guest:But Winnipeg, you want to get out of?
Guest:Well, I was freezing up there, yeah.
Guest:So I was in Winnipeg.
Guest:I moved to Calgary.
Guest:That's where I trained.
Guest:Calgary, another not great place.
Yeah.
Marc:I love Canada.
Marc:But Winnipeg, it's just blown out tundra.
Marc:And Calgary is like a bunch of yahoos.
Guest:Well, yeah, the west, the cowboys.
Guest:The cowboys are all there.
Guest:So that's where I train, though.
Guest:And I train with, it's called the Hart Brothers.
Guest:And the Hart's in Calgary.
Guest:Bret Hart, you're wearing an Owen Hart shirt.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:They're Canadians, too?
Guest:They're Canadians.
Guest:They're from Calgary.
Guest:So I trained with that family, the Hart Brothers.
Guest:Well, we were kind of talking before about territories like this guy.
Guest:Stu Hart was the patriarch of this family and he ran the Northern Territory there that was in Canada.
Guest:So before Vince started the WWF, which existed before he took it national, there was territories.
Guest:So you'd have a Calgary territory, Dallas, there'd be an LA territory.
Guest:So guys would just go around the country, stay in this territory for a year or two.
Marc:But were there gigs within each territory?
Guest:Is that how it worked?
Guest:They had their own little running...
Guest:company where you do six shows a week traveling all around the area.
Guest:In the territory.
Guest:This is what I was talking about with Jerry Lawler's Memphis territory.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:So you would get a little bit stale and then you'd move to the next territory.
Guest:So it was a very nomadic lifestyle back in those days.
Guest:How long would it take to get stale?
Guest:It depends on how hot you were and how you got your character over because wrestling is all character.
Guest:The moves are important and the matches are exciting, but you have to connect with the audience.
Guest:Just like comedy or acting or anything, you have to connect with the audience.
Guest:If you can do that to a high level, the audience will pay to see you and they'll be interested in what you're doing.
Marc:And that's a combination of things in terms of character.
Guest:Character.
Guest:Charisma.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Stories have a lot to do with the stories that we're telling.
Guest:Because that's the number one thing of wrestling.
Guest:It's storytelling.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's why people are.
Guest:And you'll see tomorrow night there's going to be some crazy matches that the athleticism is through the roof.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But the stories behind them are the most important thing.
Marc:Yeah, he'll have to fill me in on all of it.
Guest:Well, but, you know, it's interesting.
Guest:We watched some matches cold, right?
Guest:We were watching this pay-per-view without really a build to it.
Guest:And the very simple nature of some of the setups, like Jungle Boy and Luchasaurus, for instance, that's a story as old as wrestling where you have partners who break up, right?
Guest:Break up, right.
Guest:And...
Guest:We were within maybe five minutes of it, and you were like, oh, wow, it finally clicked in.
Guest:Explain what you meant by that.
Marc:Oh, just where the emotions of engagement transcend the artifice of the thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You bypass, like, this isn't real.
Marc:That kind of thing.
Guest:Well, it's like when you watch a movie or watch a TV show, you know it's not real.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it's the story that envelops you and grows.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, I, you know, before watching it with Brendan, it wasn't that I judged it because I talked to a lot of wrestlers.
Marc:I understand that it's an art and that there's a, it's a performative art.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But like, I didn't really believe that I'd necessarily get past the knowing that
Marc:that it's not really about whether it has to be convincing.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:It has to be good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you know that there's an orchestration of moves, but like I, it very quickly just became about, I became invested in the character.
Guest:Well, and you'll see like, for example, tomorrow night, my, my gang, the Jericho appreciation society.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had a match against this up and coming guy, Ricky Starks, who's getting really popular with the crowd.
Guest:He beat me.
Guest:And then after he beat me, my gang kicked the shit out of him and, and,
Guest:threw him through a table and really kicked his ass, right?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So tomorrow night, we're going to come out to gloat about how great we are.
Guest:So you guys are the heels?
Guest:We're the heels.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then Ricky will come out and Action Andretti will come out and there'll be a little confrontation, which will lead to the next week's storyline.
Guest:So some weeks you wrestle.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Some weeks you do the storytelling.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, what was interesting to me too was like I said to Brendan when Luchasaurus, is that his name?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He just pulled the table out from under the ring and I'm like, oh, so no one even gives a shit if it's organic anymore?
Marc:You need a table for the bit.
Marc:They're all under the ring.
Marc:I know, but like I said at some point it must have seemed, it was a little more authentic that the tables were outside the ring and people were sitting at them at some point in time.
Marc:Yeah, maybe, but the tables, that's a trope.
Guest:I know, that's what I mean.
Guest:I know it's a trope, but at some point it had to become a trope somehow.
Guest:Somehow, yeah.
Guest:That would be a good question.
Guest:When did the first table get pulled from underneath the ring?
Guest:I'm curious for that myself.
Guest:Well, I assume it was there for the announcers and they did a bid on it.
Marc:You know what I bet?
Guest:I actually bet it was because they started doing those TLC matches where you would have all this plunder in all parts and they would get used, right?
Guest:So a guy would go through table and then you'd have auxiliary tables, ladders, chairs and everything.
Guest:Yeah, I think it was probably earlier than that, maybe ECW or something.
Guest:Like you said, they need some extra tables.
Guest:So they'll break the ones at ringside.
Guest:Then they'll go under the ring, which it's a magical place under the ring.
Guest:Leprechauns live under there, apparently.
Guest:Chairs, tables.
Guest:Clowns live under there.
Guest:So if you go under there, it's a trip, man.
Guest:Oh, I didn't realize that under the ring was a thing.
Guest:It's a party under the... There's a hilarious... It might have been the first Hell in the Cell, I think, the Shawn Michaels Undertaker Hell in the Cell, where the whole thing was going to be nobody can get in.
Guest:It's a closed cell.
Guest:Yeah, no one can get out.
Guest:And so they had, before the match, I think Sergeant Slaughter was playing the commissioner role at that time, and he came by with a flashlight, and he lifted up the ring apron, and like, you know, like you...
Guest:waved a flashlight in the general vicinity of under the ring no one under there like it's just just just for everyone to establish there's nobody under there tonight well and that's the thing I mean there's a little bit of a suspension of disbelief as real as wrestling can be there's also a huge comedic ridiculous preposterous side to it as well yeah
Guest:which is something I've always been attracted to also.
Guest:I can go have the five star match and I can also do a song and dance routine and see me and my shadow on the show, which we did last year, a couple of years ago as well.
Guest:All of that stuff to me is wrestling.
Guest:Wrestling is all things to all people to me.
Marc:So you started doing it.
Marc:How old were you?
Marc:I was 19.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then, you know, but how, when did you sort of get into the American territories?
Guest:Well, so at the time, this is 1990.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So at the time, like the biggest, the guys were all huge, Hulk Hogan and that stuff.
Guest:It was six foot eight, 300 pounds.
Guest:That's when he was a kid.
Guest:That's that.
Guest:And that's, and I was 5'11", you know, 195, 200 pounds.
Guest:So I always knew I wouldn't be the biggest guy on the show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I could have the biggest character and the most charisma and the biggest personality.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's what I did in Canada.
Guest:But then where I really started getting my break was overseas in Japan and in Mexico because they didn't care as much about size.
Guest:They cared about match quality.
Guest:They cared about charisma, connecting with the crowd, connecting with the audience.
Marc:How is it different, though, over there?
Marc:Like in Japan, what are the expectations?
Guest:Japan is a little bit more hard-hitting, a little bit less of the interviews and the American— They just like the physicality?
Guest:The physicality of it, the art form of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Mexico was the other side.
Guest:Way much more cartoon character.
Guest:For kids, you know, everyone's wearing the mask, the Lucha Libre thing.
Guest:So America's kind of a combination of the two.
Guest:Japan's much more hard-hitting.
Guest:Mexico's much more of the cartoon side.
Marc:It's like it's sort of broad.
Marc:Because I noticed that a little bit with some of those Luchadors that we watched today that you were fighting with, right?
Guest:The Lucha Brothers.
Guest:The Lucha Brothers, right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But what I'm saying is I became a big star in Japan as a bad guy and a big star in Mexico as almost a teen heartthrob.
Guest:Like I was in the cover of the teen magazines and all that stuff.
Guest:So by the time I got to the States, which is your question, it was probably 96.
Guest:So I was six years in, but I'd already become a pretty big star in other countries before I came and became a star in the States.
Marc:So you're paying some dues.
Marc:Did you ever, did you do those gigs that like comics do like hell gigs?
Guest:All of them.
Guest:I did a kid's birthday party once for a hot dog and an orange juice.
Guest:Really?
Guest:That's my best payoff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But yeah, you do all those ones.
Guest:I mean, I remember in Mexico, some of those, some of the places we worked were so shitty.
Guest:I remember a guy taking a shower out of the back of a toilet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's like, no, it's okay.
Guest:It's clean water.
Guest:I'm like, dude, it's from a toilet.
Guest:Like, I don't care how clean it is.
Guest:A toilet is a toilet.
Guest:So, but they always had a ring.
Guest:They always had a ring.
Guest:Sometimes there are boxing rings, which are hard like this table.
Guest:You're not doing any, we call them bumps and not bumps of cocaine.
Guest:Bumps are the falls that you take in wrestling.
Guest:You're not taking a lot of bumps in a boxing ring because it's just too hard.
Guest:So you would just go out there and just pantomime and just fuck around because it's not on TV and there's 50 drunks in the crowd.
Guest:Just get the hell out of there and get your 200 pesos and go home.
Marc:Was there like ever nights where there was like 10 people?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:The smallest crowd I think I wrestled was in Rimby, Alberta, seven people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's hard.
Guest:Listen, I could wrestle in a stadium tomorrow in front of 70,000 people and be less nervous than wrestling in front of seven people.
Marc:You got to hold seven people.
Guest:And you can see it.
Guest:You see each person in the crowd.
Guest:You actually get to know these people.
Guest:I'm sure you've done the same gigs.
Guest:Like, oh, the guy with the dark hair is getting bored.
Marc:I better do something.
Marc:And then there's the war against embarrassment.
Marc:Because when there's seven people there, it's already a little sad.
Guest:It's terrible.
Guest:And the people that are there are embarrassed.
Guest:Yeah, everyone's embarrassed.
Guest:It's like we made the wrong decision to come to the wrestling tonight.
Guest:That's the same with the band sometimes.
Guest:You play and it's like, oh, fuck.
Guest:Not anymore, thankfully, but we played the games with seven people with the band, too.
Guest:That sucks also.
Marc:I never understood it.
Marc:You'd go do the show, but when I'd get there, I'd be like, do you want to go?
Marc:Do you want to just leave?
Marc:You can go?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm really, I feel bad for you.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:It's so embarrassing.
Guest:It's a little weird, but they always stay, dude.
Guest:They do.
Guest:And then once again, that's the real secret.
Guest:That's paying your dues.
Guest:If you can get a crowd of seven interested in what you're doing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a hell of a talent to be able to have.
Marc:Well, they're also, they don't want to hurt your feelings.
Marc:If you walk a crowd of seven, even two of them, that's got to be worse.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Because you don't know if you walk anybody when there's 20,000 people in there.
Guest:And that was the thing, too.
Guest:During the pandemic, we had to wrestle in front of no people because we have our weekly TV show.
Guest:It's like, listen, pandemic or not, you got to put on a show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I remember a lot of the people were like, I feel bad for the young guys.
Guest:There's no crowds.
Guest:I was like, fuck the young guys.
Guest:They feel bad for me.
Guest:You know how long it's been since I wrestled in front of no people?
Guest:It's been 30 years.
Guest:It's really hard to wrestle in front of no people.
Marc:So you need the crowd that badly?
Marc:I mean, not need, but I mean, you pace yourself with the crowd.
Guest:Yeah, you a lot of times, at least for me, with the experience that I have is I base my match around the crowd that we have.
Guest:You know, I know of like, for example, last week in Seattle with Ricky Starks.
Guest:I knew the Seattle crowd was going to be crazy.
Guest:I might have put together a different style match if we were in Washington, D.C.
Guest:where the crowd is not as crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Or Bridgeport, Connecticut.
Marc:What did you do?
Marc:Did you make them crazy?
Guest:Just more of the drama.
Guest:Just more of the drama.
Guest:I also noticed, and I don't notice this from you a lot, you flipped off the crowd.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Like you just do double birds.
Guest:They always react to that.
Guest:They were frenzied.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:But there's more drama in a match like that where you have the crowd that hot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For example, if I put them in the submission hold, I know I can hold it for five minutes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the crowd will be...
Guest:excited about it cheering and hoping that he gets out we can mess with it like you just know and that's just so so yes you do use the crowd of course yeah to to base your performance on the flow yeah the flow so like so you you don't make the transitions as quickly or like if the crowd if you can milk a crowd oh i will milk them till the cows come home
Marc:So you can just keep doing the different parts of the story.
Guest:I did a match in Chicago right before Thanksgiving with Ishii.
Guest:And he's a Japanese guy.
Guest:He doesn't speak English.
Guest:He's really hard-hating.
Guest:And I said, we're going to chop each other, slap each other in the chest for like five minutes straight.
Guest:Let's just see what happens.
Guest:And dude, our chests were blood.
Guest:My eye was actually bleeding.
Guest:My black and blue.
Guest:And for five minutes, this crowd was going nuts.
Guest:And then they go down a bit.
Guest:And I said, just keep going.
Guest:You know, it's like a comedy.
Guest:Repetition always gets a laugh.
Guest:Wrestling, repetition always.
Guest:And they came back up.
Guest:And now they're just going bananas for this chop fight.
Guest:And I was like, this is great.
Guest:We don't have to do anything.
Guest:Just chop each other for five minutes.
Guest:Hit you with the finish.
Guest:And the match is done.
Guest:It was awesome.
Guest:We were talking about when you were watching Jungle Boy and he had gigged and he was bloody and sometimes guys, the whole face is bloody covered.
Guest:Ric Flair was very popular doing that.
Guest:The legendary commentator, Gordon Soley, he would call it the crimson mask.
Guest:Yes, the crimson mask.
Guest:And Chris had literally, I'd never seen a wrestler, had the crimson chest.
Guest:His fucking whole chest was bleeding, like, just from chops.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like I said, the drama of it worked because the crowd was so hot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, so all of that stuff plays in.
Guest:You know this because you're a live performer, too.
Guest:There is a trick and a way to play a live crowd.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And if you can do that, you'll always have the best shows.
Guest:And it takes a while to learn, but once you got it, you can do it every night.
Marc:So when you were in that, the four people, what do you call that?
Guest:Oh, the four-way match?
Marc:The four-way, like, I mean, do you, all you guys just know those moves in terms of synchronicity and movement, even when there's two on one, you just know those instinctively and you just call them and you know what to go to?
Guest:Yeah, you talk about it beforehand.
Guest:Oh, you do.
Guest:Especially for a match like that because there's four different players.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's always something going on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But if you remember that match, the biggest reaction of the whole match is when my guy Sammy and I were... Yeah.
Guest:When he turned on me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That there, when I spun him around and that drama was... Oh, after you hugged him and then he went at you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then we made a deal like, you know, you're not going to go after me.
Guest:You're going to help me win.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right, Sammy?
Guest:And he's like, all right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was the story we told going into it.
Guest:So that when I finally hit him with a move... Yeah.
Guest:didn't care a thing about it and then he was kind of like well this is fucking shitty so then he turns on me and that moment was so dramatic that people went nuts for it and I'm like that's the best that's wrestling right because they I mean like someone like Brendan knows everything that can happen but you don't know what will happen or I think of the way I put it to you is that I come into it and I come into every match
Guest:hoping that the that they will make the right dramatic choices in that scenario and then when and and i know that they're professional so so uh especially like you're in a national promotion like this they're not gonna half-ass this they're gonna do the full match it's gonna be good no matter what they're good performance yeah but like the perfect example is the main event of that pay-per-view like going into that uh
Guest:pay-per-view following the story of MJF and Moxley and Regal, like me and my friend who went to that event in Jersey, we thought, well, he's got to cheat and he's got to be helped by Regal.
Guest:That's the story.
Guest:And look, I would have gone, I would have had a great time in any other way watching those matches.
Guest:It was a great night, you know, really well done show.
Guest:But that was the key because I was like, they hit the best emotional note that you could hit.
Guest:Is that...
Guest:It was all laid out for weeks, if you got to that point.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, we did something just a few weeks ago.
Guest:I saw this kid back in October.
Guest:Good-looking kid, pretty agile.
Guest:And then I said, well, let's do a promo, an interview with him.
Guest:He was a good talker.
Guest:I said, let's hire him, but just keep him at home.
Guest:I got an idea.
Guest:Action and ready.
Guest:Two or three weeks ago, I lose my title, and I'm going to have a tune-up match against some jobber, and I'm going to get back on track and go back after this title again.
Guest:So this kid comes out, and we have a match, and I'm treating him like a jobber, like a squash match.
Guest:I'm just throwing him around, beating him up against really no offense.
Guest:People are chanting, let's go, jobber.
Guest:They're behind it.
Guest:They're laughing along.
Guest:Hit him with my finish.
Guest:One, two, he kicks out.
Guest:And that moment there, people were like...
Guest:Oh, shit.
Guest:And then the buzz starts coming.
Guest:What's going to happen now?
Guest:We've never even seen this guy on TV ever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then we continue forward, and then suddenly he gets me, and he gets me again.
Guest:He gets out of this.
Guest:He gets out of that.
Guest:Bam, boom, boom.
Guest:Hits me with a move.
Guest:One, two, three.
Guest:He wins.
Guest:The crowd goes fucking crazy.
Guest:He's running around slapping hands.
Guest:He's jumping up and down.
Guest:People are going nuts.
Guest:It's one of the greatest moments that we've had maybe in AEW history.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because no one knew this guy.
Guest:And by the end, we had made a new star.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Doesn't hurt me to lose.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But we made this guy.
Guest:And that's what it's about.
Guest:It's about making stars and about making people react and not... No one and nobody...
Guest:would have guessed that he was going to win.
Guest:Well, especially watching it week to week, you pick up certain cues, and these are the kind of things I have picked up since I was a kid, that if you introduce a guy, Chris Jericho, for instance, will be in action.
Guest:No name of an opponent or whatever.
Guest:That's going to be a squash match.
Guest:That's a jobber.
Guest:I don't even know if this was on purpose.
Guest:They might have been, it might not have been.
Guest:But when he was introduced, the graphic was messed up.
Guest:It said your name.
Guest:It was my name, yeah.
Guest:And it just looks like they don't give a shit about this guy because he's just going to lose.
Guest:And that was a mistake, but it was a happy accident.
Guest:Oh, it's so perfect.
Guest:Amazing.
Guest:And there are also, there have been matches where a guy will get a little shine on a big star.
Guest:I'm thinking of Triple H and Takamichi Noke.
Guest:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it had that formula where you could plausibly see that this guy was going to get an upset victory, but in your head you knew there's no chance.
Guest:We know it's not going to happen.
Guest:So you're just waiting to when the finish actually happens.
Guest:And the amazing thing with this match was that Chris has conceivably three finishers.
Guest:So he hits the finish that he mentioned, and it was one, two, kick out.
Guest:He's still got two more in the chamber.
Guest:And each time...
Guest:This guy gets some shine, gets ready to build.
Guest:Then, I forget, he went for a move where maybe it was his moonsault he missed.
Guest:And he gets up and Chris is going like this.
Guest:Like he's going to hit him with this spinning elbow.
Guest:And the crowd immediately is booing the shit out of the match because they're like, now we know the end.
Guest:This is it.
Guest:Now I can boo Chris because he's going to win and he's the heel.
Guest:And it fucked up.
Guest:He didn't get the move.
Guest:The kid gets out of it again.
Guest:And now it's all over.
Guest:You're ripping up the crowd again.
Guest:This is what I've been trying to let you in on my enjoyment of this as to why I like it so much.
Guest:And it's this, exactly this.
Guest:But once again, like we said, it's the story that we're telling.
Guest:You called it as a fan watching.
Guest:There's no way this guy is going to win.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But what if he did?
Guest:And then suddenly it's like, this guy could win, but he still won't.
Guest:Like, we know what's going to happen.
Guest:Jericho's going to make him look great, and then the next week we've got a new guy.
Guest:But then he gets out of this move.
Guest:Okay, well, this is what he got out of that move.
Guest:And then he wins.
Guest:It's like, that drama and that reaction, that's what wrestling is for me.
Guest:It gives a shit about the fucking moves.
Guest:It's creating the story to get people to go, ah, this is great!
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like the best movies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The best TV shows, whatever it may be.
Guest:But now this guy's got to do the job, right?
Guest:Well, the thing is, now, and everyone was like, oh, what's the follow-up?
Guest:You just put this guy over, because everyone's a know-it-all now, too, Mark.
Guest:They go on fucking Twitter.
Guest:I know what the follow-up is.
Guest:The next week, he comes out and rescues another guy.
Guest:So then I do this thing where I throw fireballs in guys' faces.
Guest:So I fucking throw a fireball in his face.
Guest:Okay, you got the big win over Chris Jericho.
Guest:Quit while you're ahead.
Guest:Go home.
Guest:Never come back.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So the guy that I beat up that he came to make the save for, Ricky Starks, we have this match last week.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And once again...
Guest:Ricky's probably not going to win.
Guest:He's a bigger star, but he beats me.
Guest:Clean.
Guest:Clean.
Guest:He wins.
Guest:So then my guys come to beat him up.
Guest:Who comes down to fucking save the day?
Guest:The guy who I threw the fireball in a couple of weeks ago.
Guest:Now he's back again, but we fuck him up too.
Guest:So now the storyline is these two guys, Ricky Starks and Action End Ready, are like these kind of two partners that are thrown together just by the fact that my guys beat them both up.
Guest:So now they create an alliance.
Guest:This guy Ricky's getting higher up the food chain.
Guest:Action's getting higher up the food chain.
Guest:My guys are getting some great shit.
Guest:It all fucking works together.
Guest:I'll give Chris some praise here too because one of the things that hooks me into watching is do they get the little details right?
Guest:And, you know, I think Tony is very, you know, meticulous about a lot of things.
Guest:And, you know, this is only 30 seconds of airtime.
Guest:But they came back from a break after Chris lost this match.
Guest:And he is destroying everything in the backstage.
Guest:Oh, having a tantrum.
Guest:just breaking and you know it's like that sells the story yes because if you were like whatever there's a fluke i don't care you know you laugh it off or whatever that diminishes the story but you take 30 seconds of the show and all it's very simple just have him go tipping over you know electrical boxes or whatever backstage against the wall it helps yeah it worked because then it's like he really is pissed off yeah
Guest:And that's a good thing too, Mark.
Guest:Being the bad guy, it's like there's no rules.
Guest:I can color outside the lines as much as I want.
Guest:Now, I'm a good baby face, but it's always so much more fun to be a heel.
Guest:How could it not be?
Guest:I've always been better as the bad guy.
Guest:I've never been world champion as a good guy.
Guest:The Ocho every time has been a heel.
Guest:But that's, I mean, like you said, that's the art form to it.
Guest:And the heel is usually leads the match.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like the guy leads the girl in the dance.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:The heel leads the good guy.
Guest:Why is it?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It's just always the way it's been since I came into the business.
Guest:I think maybe because the heel used to have more experience than the up-and-coming, good-looking baby face.
Guest:So you could help run the match better.
Guest:The old beat-up guy?
Guest:Yeah, I guess.
Guest:And I'm the old beat-up guy with the hot young upstarts.
Guest:So I think I like to be in that position of controlling the match a little bit more.
Guest:And you can work together.
Guest:But the heel just always has more of a say in what's going on.
Marc:When you were coming up, were there guys that you looked up to or that you learned from?
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:I mean, there's regional guys that never made it out.
Guest:Yeah, it's the same with comedy.
Guest:Right?
Guest:The geniuses.
Guest:You go, and it's like, fucking this guy.
Guest:Why did he never make it?
Marc:What's the answer, usually?
Guest:Timing, probably.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:Or they got that thing inside, and they're not going to let him get famous.
Guest:You're a guitar player.
Guest:How many guitar players do you know who are like, how the fuck did this guy never make it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you're right.
Guest:The thing inside of them that prevents you from taking a chance to go to that one thing that's just not quite.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:There's a combination of things.
Marc:Timing is one thing.
Marc:But, you know, some people just don't ever come into their own.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you got to do that to actually have an honest shot at it.
Guest:You do.
Guest:You have to have a little bit of arrogance, a little bit of fearlessness, a little bit of foolishness to make it.
Guest:You really do.
Guest:I mean, think of all of us that I mean, you've made it huge in your career.
Yeah.
Guest:just to take that step.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The first night you stepped on stage with three minutes of material.
Guest:Like I tried standup comedy when I was, and I didn't, I sucked.
Guest:It was terrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thankfully I was good at music and wrestling.
Guest:So I stuck with that, but like you tried it.
Guest:I like that was in the mix.
Guest:It was.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, I remember I did a big routine on a golden topping is what they call butter on popcorn in Canada.
Guest:Golden topping.
Guest:I can't remember exactly, but I relate it to sex in a golden shower.
Guest:So maybe that will tell you why my routine didn't do so well that night.
Guest:But I mean, just to take that chance to make it, it's not easy to do, right?
Guest:And maybe some guys weren't able to...
Guest:Right.
Marc:But what's also hard is if you get the opportunity to keep doing it is then you realize, like, well, fuck now, I'm in.
Marc:Yeah, there's no choice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there's no going back to anything.
Marc:So you got you got to ride it out.
Marc:I think it's one thing if a regional act doesn't quite get it, because I bet you some of those guys are still working.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, and they did, yeah.
Guest:I mean, not now because they're probably so old, but because the guys were probably 10, 15 years older than me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But they probably worked much longer.
Guest:They probably had 25-year careers.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then they were probably, you know, driving a taxi.
Guest:And on Saturday night, they're out to go do a match.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I wonder if they're okay.
Marc:I always wonder about those cats, if they give it up gracefully.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:You know, did you ever see that movie called The Wrestler with Mickey?
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:That, I know so many of those guys throughout the years, of the guys that were made it big, and then now they're working back in the community center after literally playing Madison Square Garden.
Guest:How does it get to that point?
Guest:Thankfully, I never had that.
Guest:I never...
Guest:From the moment I started wrestling, I think I had a bar gig for the first year and a half.
Guest:I have never had another job.
Guest:Of course, I had a million jobs.
Guest:But I never had to get a day job since I was probably 21.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But do you think, Chris, that maybe you also, because you have a kind of spirit of entrepreneurship and you've set yourself up with a lot of gigs.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:And I do think, like I was saying that to Mark, like that, you know,
Guest:you're one of these guys and I wouldn't call you a survivor in the business.
Guest:You're, you're still a top star, but you have done what a survivor would do to set themselves up so that they're not in that position to be like, you're, you're still wrestling and you're, you're, you're wrestling in the highest possible way.
Guest:Taking, you know, having long matches, big bumps, all this stuff, but you still have three or four or five things at any given time that you can rely on.
Guest:Well, I, I, I never wanted to, um,
Guest:Get the day job.
Guest:Get the day job or have someone tell me what I have to do.
Guest:Obviously, I have a boss.
Guest:We all have bosses.
Guest:But I really work for myself.
Guest:And I think one of the things I've always been good at is I'm not afraid to take a chance.
Guest:I left WWE to go to Japan and then went to AEW.
Guest:We didn't know what AEW was going to do when it started.
Guest:Do you know how many upstart wrestling companies there's been?
Guest:Has there been a lot?
Guest:Been a lot, but not major ones.
Guest:But you hear it all the time.
Guest:For just the thought of AEW to leave and for us to be as big as we are right now, to actually be a legit competitor with WWE, no one could have guessed that.
Guest:So it took a lot of guts to give it a try.
Guest:Like, fuck, if this works, my legacy is even bigger.
Guest:If it doesn't, then tail between the legs probably go back to WWE or whatever.
Guest:But I didn't want to do that.
Marc:Well, how do people like, again, you know, but I don't know.
Marc:Like, how do they treat guys who are getting older at WWE?
Guest:Well, I mean, it's weird.
Guest:Like, back probably in the 90s, there was a company called WCW that became very popular because Hulk Hogan went there, Macho Man Savage, Piper.
Guest:Because Vince got rid of all those guys.
Guest:Because in his mind, when you hit 40, you were done.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Meanwhile, regional, like Mick Bockwinkle, I think, was the world champion when he was 50 and still awesome.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I'm 52, and I was just one of the world champions, and I'm still, like you said, doing some really great work.
Guest:So I think WWE had that mindset, but then they kind of got away from it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The adage of age is just the number.
Guest:It's so true.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it really is.
Guest:And to me, people say, well, how much longer are you going to do this?
Guest:It's like, I could end tomorrow.
Guest:I could end five years from now.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Or who cares?
Guest:Sting is 63.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And still doing great stuff.
Guest:So who knows, man?
Guest:To me, as long as you can still compete at a high level, like I have a high standard for myself.
Guest:If I went out there and like two, three, four times in a row, I felt like, oof.
Guest:Like, I'm starting to fucking phone this in.
Guest:I would quit.
Guest:That happens with guys, too.
Guest:I mean, you see it happen.
Guest:You can lose it in a second.
Guest:Who knows, man, right?
Guest:So that's why I never thought wrestling would last forever because it can't.
Guest:But I can play music until the day I die.
Guest:I can do a podcast the day I die.
Guest:I can act until I die.
Guest:I can do a crew, whatever, all these different things that I do.
Guest:It's show business, right?
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:So the physical aspect might go away.
Guest:But in the meantime, I built all these other avenues that it's like, dude, I'll just step.
Guest:I'm looking at Mick right now.
Guest:You've got this great poster.
Guest:Give me shots over here.
Guest:I saw Mick in London this summer.
Guest:He was 79, almost 80.
Guest:He's still fucking great.
Guest:Not for an old, no, for anybody.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:He's Mick Jagger.
Guest:He's Mick Jagger.
Marc:I saw him.
Marc:But, you know, you can see that, like, God knows what he has to do to get up into that mind to do that.
Marc:It's kind of amazing.
Guest:It's amazing.
Guest:But he does it, right, Mark?
Guest:He does it.
Marc:He does do it, you know.
Marc:Well, I've been talking about it.
Marc:I saw the Stones do their last show here in Florida, the last tour.
Marc:At the Hard Rock?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And people are like, was it great?
Marc:I'm like, no.
Marc:It was the Stones, though.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's like you're excited to see them, and they put the effort in.
Marc:And Mick is like, Mick is carrying the whole goddamn thing.
Marc:He's overdoing it.
Marc:Dude, completely.
Marc:And it's kind of like you almost feel like saying, just take it easy, man.
Marc:Take a rest.
Guest:He gets two songs rest for sure where Keith sings.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And at that point, that's all you can take of Keith.
Guest:And Keith, like, yeah, you don't even know if he's going to make the.
Guest:He's croaking it out.
Guest:Yeah, you don't know if he's going to make the chord.
Guest:Dude, he was sitting down for a while when I saw them in Atlanta last November.
Guest:He just sat down on the chair.
Guest:Like, listen, dude, I get it.
Guest:It's fine.
Guest:But I see Mick Jagger.
Guest:And to me, it's like, I look at pictures of my dad when he was 40.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He looked like an old man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, sweatsuit, big glasses.
Guest:That's just how it was back in the 80s.
Guest:Now I see Mick at 80 and I'm 52.
Guest:It's like, there is no way I'm ever going to stop doing what I'm doing.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Why would I?
Guest:If Mick can do it, I want to do it too and stay in shape and be cool.
Guest:And like you said, how much he has to do to get into that mindset, but he does it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And to me, like, that's life.
Guest:Like, I don't want to be this guy.
Guest:Oh, he's 70 and I'm growing carrots now.
Guest:And if you want to do that, that's great.
Guest:I don't want to fucking grow carrots.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't want to grow carrots, but I might want to not do anything.
Yeah.
Marc:There's some part of me that's sort of like, how long do I have to keep doing shit?
Marc:But you can still do podcasts.
Marc:Why can't you do stand-up?
Marc:It's not like I have to train to do stand-up.
Marc:But it is a matter of, in the same way, it's a matter of relevance and whether or not you're still popular.
Marc:And we can podcast for as long as we choose to do it.
Marc:But for some reason, there's still part of my brain, even though I'm my own boss as well, that's sort of like, is there a way to enjoy life without doing this?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, but my thing though, Mark is, is, is how old were you when you first started doing standup?
Guest:21.
Guest:All right.
Guest:So you just told me you're 59.
Guest:So you're, you're looking almost 40 years.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I'm done with it.
Guest:Now you tell me after those three months or six months, it's going to creep back like, fuck man, I want to go back out again.
Guest:Like, yeah, I'll just go to the improv for one night.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I'll take the book and I'll go to Seattle.
Guest:Next thing you know, you're all the fucking round again.
Guest:That's right, but you don't want to be the guy that's sort of like, well, he's still doing it.
Guest:I see that as well.
Guest:That's what I was saying about wrestling.
Guest:People already say that about me.
Guest:You've got to have a thick skin to be in show business because just by the fact I exist, whenever I lose a match, it's the greatest match ever.
Guest:Whenever I win, it's Jericho holding down the young guys.
Guest:Which is so ridiculous because I was mentioning that to him today that it would not be a good win for someone else if you lost all the time.
Guest:If I didn't win.
Guest:You know, I was the champion and won a bunch of matches and people were bagging on me for winning.
Guest:It's like, I'm the champion.
Guest:How dare you win as the champion so that when someone beats you and becomes the champion, it's a big deal.
Guest:Also, Chris lost the title to that giant swing move, which was, I thought, fantastic.
Guest:Oh, thanks, yeah.
Guest:That, like...
Guest:That's just like a gimmick that that guy does.
Guest:I pointed it out to Mark.
Guest:The Italian guy?
Guest:Yeah, or he's Swiss, but he's got an Italian name.
Guest:And Chris tapped out to it, which is hilarious.
Guest:We have for years been trying to figure out a way to get out of that move because when he does it, people react.
Guest:The old tiny swing in a circle thing.
Guest:But then when he stops, the people come down again.
Guest:I've been working with him since WWE.
Guest:We always could never figure out what are we going to do.
Guest:And finally, it's like, this giant swing.
Guest:What?
Guest:Fuck.
Guest:And then I was like, can I tap out?
Guest:So I actually had him do it where I was trying to see, like, when you're swinging, can I move my hand around to tap it?
Guest:You were tapping the mat as you were moving.
Guest:I'm just hitting anything I can as I'm spinning around.
Guest:But what a great fucking way to go out, you know?
Guest:That was amazing.
Guest:You also took that swing on the top of that cage, which you're fucking nuts for.
Guest:Like, I would never have done it.
Guest:You couldn't have paid me to do that.
Guest:I took that giant swing...
Guest:what 40 feet up on top of a cage.
Guest:Oh man.
Guest:And the only reason I did is because Claudio, the guy we're talking about is the strongest guy.
Guest:And I knew there is no way in hell he's ever going to even have one wavering second of dropping me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But as soon as he started giving it to me and all I'm up there and all I see is people upside down, down this far.
Guest:I took about six.
Guest:I'm done.
Guest:I'm done.
Guest:Stop, stop, stop, stop.
Guest:Now I watch it back on camera.
Guest:I could have taken it 50 times, but when you're up there, it was terrifying.
Guest:It was freaking me out, man.
Guest:He's got this uncanny balance when he does it too, but there's no way you could be in it that you would think, oh, he's not going to fall.
Guest:And when you're in it, I'm just going to fall right off the edge and I'm just freaking out.
Guest:Stop, stop.
Guest:Yeah, but would you have always thought that?
Guest:Or if you were younger, do you think?
Guest:I just think just the situation that you're in being that high up, I don't care how old it is.
Guest:It wasn't an age thing.
Guest:It was just a freak out thing.
Marc:How often do you feel like you might get hurt?
Marc:I mean, it looks like it's kind of easy to get hurt.
Guest:I mean, all it takes is one false move and you get hurt.
Guest:So that can happen at any point in time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But there's a few things that I'll see that I do that I'm a little bit nervous about.
Guest:That was one of them.
Guest:Getting thrown off the cage in the first one was one of them because it's a pretty far fall.
Guest:A couple things, if you see the match I did with Bandito, there's a couple moves he did that I knew were going to hurt, a little bit nervous about.
Guest:But it's also kind of a little bit of a daredevil thing.
Guest:I don't not want to do it because it's a little bit scary.
Guest:That was what you said while we were watching it.
Guest:You were like, there has to be a certain level of some kind of masochism to this.
Guest:Sure, there is.
Guest:And it was in that four-way.
Guest:Of all the matches we watched, too, that one, and it's funny, I was there and I've watched that pay-per-view since.
Guest:It wasn't until sitting there watching with him that I realized of the matches on that pay-per-view, that one was the most physically violent.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Hard-hitting.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And it was really at the heat point in the match.
Guest:And Mark was like, there's just no way these guys feel good after this.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I think a lot of it, too, is it's just almost like a body callous.
Guest:You just get used to it.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I used to wrestle four times a week.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Every week, four times a week.
Guest:Now it's once a month, once every couple weeks.
Guest:So it's almost a little bit harder to wrestle less.
Guest:Now, I couldn't do four matches a week schedule now, nor would I ever want to.
Guest:But when you only wrestle once in a while, you think, oh, it's probably a little bit of an easier schedule.
Guest:It probably hurts a little bit more because you're not as used to it.
Marc:You don't have the kitchen hands.
Guest:I guess so, right?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:But, I mean, have you gotten injured badly?
Guest:You know, I've been actually really lucky.
Guest:The only injury I ever really had, I had a bulging disc, which is fine, but I broke my arm in 94.
Guest:I had a steel plate, but I missed seven weeks, and that's the only...
Guest:injury I've ever had.
Guest:The weight's still in there?
Guest:Still in there, yeah.
Guest:I've never missed a match due to injury.
Guest:And you were young.
Guest:That's 94?
Guest:94, yeah.
Guest:You know, something you mentioned, Chris, that, you know, a guy that Mark knows well is Mick Foley.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Yeah, great guy.
Guest:And we used to work with him on the radio, and we...
Guest:We did some stuff with him.
Guest:And one of the crazy things about Mick was, you know, the hardcore legend, as he's called, and he's in all these death matches.
Guest:But really, his biggest earning period of his career was as a guy who pulled a sock out and put it in your mouth.
Guest:And it was essentially leaning into comedy as a character.
Guest:And it was something I heard you say on your show once.
Guest:I think you guys were reviewing like Piledriver, the album or something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You were like, this is this.
Guest:This is part of why I got into wrestling.
Guest:Big time.
Guest:Was like that.
Guest:It's goofy and silly and you can't do it all the time and you can't just be a clown about it.
Guest:Like bad comedy is bad comedy.
Guest:And like we were talking about that before, too, that if you watch some of this stuff when it's like if it's acted badly or it just can get embarrassing.
Guest:I'm always curious where that comes from.
Guest:Does it come from, like, a promoter?
Guest:Like, is it a Vince?
Guest:Or is it the people on the staff writing saying, we're going to lean into this being funny?
Guest:Or is it actually just a performer who's turned it up?
Guest:It's the person.
Guest:It's the person.
Guest:Like I said, like, I grew up in the 80s watching wrestling.
Guest:And WWF had that campy side to it.
Guest:The Slammy Awards and...
Guest:Vince McMahon singing stand back and guys fighting back through catering, hit each other with giant salmon and punch bowl.
Guest:Like I always love that side of wrestling and I still love it to this day.
Guest:Now wrestling has kind of changed where it's much more of a hardcore five-star match.
Guest:But yet, like I said, we did that song and dance routine, MJF and I, me and my shadow.
Guest:It must be Berkeley.
Guest:We were like, we were arguing.
Guest:So we're going to meet for dinner and we're going to work this out.
Guest:And then we'd go into a song and dance routine.
Guest:I fucking loved it.
Guest:It actually even won some kind of award with the New York Times.
Guest:Yeah, it was the New York Times, yeah.
Guest:New York Times.
Guest:People hated it.
Guest:Not all people, but the hardcore.
Guest:They are killing wrestling.
Guest:Dude, this is what wrestling had this element to it.
Guest:When I was a kid, I got enthralled with it.
Guest:Now, the difference is, and this is something, like you said, there's nothing worse than bad comedy, and Mark knows this.
Guest:There's nothing worse than bad improv.
Guest:I did the Groundlings for a year.
Guest:I learned...
Guest:don't try and be funny yeah if you try and be funny it's never funny the best way to do improv is to play it straight sure that's how all of my guys will tell you inner circle guys jericho appreciate my rule is play it straight yeah i don't care how either serious it is how outlandish how goofy it is if we play it straight it always fucking works
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's the way to do it.
Guest:Were you doing the groundlings while you were wrestling?
Guest:I took a break from about 05 to 07.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I studied acting.
Guest:I studied, I did improv with the groundlings.
Guest:Did you think, did you then, did you do that specifically?
Guest:Like, so when you were back in wrestling, you were knowing that this is stuff you could.
Guest:I didn't know if I'd ever come back.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I was just really burned out in wrestling.
Guest:I didn't know how much farther I could go.
Guest:And you think about that 2005, I didn't become Chris Jericho until probably 2008.
Guest:Hmm.
Guest:I'd done a lot of cool stuff.
Marc:So how long had you been at it, 2005?
Marc:15 years.
Guest:And I was just burned out.
Guest:I was done.
Guest:That's interesting, though.
Guest:You were already a funny character.
Guest:I was going to say, I think the first time I noticed you, and that's not true, I might have seen you at one of your first ECW matches in Queens.
Guest:It was like 1996 or something.
Guest:I was growing up in Queens.
Guest:I might have even worked Mick Foley that night.
Guest:I think he did.
Guest:It was his last show.
Guest:Yes, it was.
Guest:At the Rego Park Hall.
Guest:And once again, he put me over.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:I beat him as he's the guy leaving, the big star.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I'm the young guy and no one thought I was going to beat him.
Guest:But when I win and he leaves, now I got a little bit of steam.
Guest:That's how it works, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so you were babyface there, and then you went to WCW as a babyface, fresh-faced, Lionheart, Chris Jericho.
Guest:And it really started to turn with the losing streak gimmick, which always can help you turn to a heel, right?
Guest:Yeah, tantrums, yeah.
Guest:And he turns heel and is going at this guy, Dean Malenko, who is, his gimmick is a wrestler's wrestler, and they would call him the man of a thousand holds.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:Chris comes out, he's the cocky heel, and he has a roll of paper with him.
Guest:And I remember watching this on TV as it was happening.
Guest:He says, Dean Malenko, he may be the man of a thousand holds, but I'm the man of what?
Guest:Was it a thousand three?
Guest:A thousand four.
Guest:I know four more than he does.
Guest:And now I'm going to read them to you.
Guest:Rolls it out.
Guest:This list rolls down to the ground.
Guest:And he starts reading them out loud.
Guest:This is terrible, the announcers.
Guest:Let's go to break.
Guest:They go to break.
Guest:Full commercial set.
Guest:Back from break.
Guest:He's still in the ring reading the list of holds.
Guest:And every fifth or seventh hold was armbar.
Guest:It was the same one.
Guest:He's just repeating it.
Guest:The funny thing for that was is that we went to commercial break.
Guest:We're in Chicago.
Guest:So I'm reading my holds.
Guest:We go to break.
Guest:As soon as I know we're in break, I just start insulting Chicago sports teams.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So when they come back from break and it's like, you got 10 seconds, the Blackhawks suck.
Guest:The Chicago sucks.
Guest:Three, two, one, the Russian pile driver.
Guest:So they're really booing.
Guest:So it looks like for three minutes, he's been doing this for three fucking minutes.
Guest:Yeah, a little showbiz trick.
Guest:Oh, that's funny.
Guest:But that's, you know, I don't want to be presumptuous about this, but I do think that got you over in a way that probably then got you hired by WWF when it was time for you to jump.
Guest:And, like, that is the kind of, like, so this idea that, and it goes back to something you said right when we started talking, was that it's all about the character.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:The character, the character, the character.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, another thing about wrestling, too, is it's really a lot of similarities between WWE and SNL, Silent Live.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Guest:If you look at it, Lauren has created this entire pop culture phenomenon that changed the course of history in a lot of ways.
Guest:Vince did the same with the WWF.
Guest:But they're both based on talent and making stars.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then those stars become big stars and then they leave.
Guest:And now he has to build new stars.
Guest:So sometimes you get a shitty season of SNL because there's just nothing there.
Guest:Same in WWE.
Guest:Sometimes they're trying to build these guys like this guy just doesn't have it.
Guest:Then The Rock comes or Steve Austin comes or Adam Sandler comes out and suddenly you got a guy who's hot.
Guest:Then the show is hot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:right and then the guy leaves brings new life to it yeah so but that's always the secret like you're saying who's the next hot guy and you never know the acclaimed we never thought the acclaimed well we never i'm not saying you didn't think it but the fact they got this big they're a tag team that does a little rap act and they come out they're great they're so popular yeah you never would have guessed it if you just saw them two years ago right oh they're they're a decent little team and now they're like one of the biggest acts on our show
Marc:Is there some sort of scouting apparatus to wrestling?
Marc:I mean, it seems like with show business, everyone kind of knows, can see people developing.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And they call them indies, independent companies.
Guest:And pre-pandemic and then now post-pandemic, they're finally getting back to where you'll see a lot.
Guest:Like that PWG, there's still dozens of great wrestlers that aren't signed to WWE or AEW.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And so then you get the word out about them like, oh, the guy like Michael Oku I worked or Speedball Mike Bailey.
Guest:You hear about this guy.
Guest:So there's all these names that you hear.
Guest:And then sooner or later, they'll get to the point.
Guest:Same with like with me.
Guest:Oh, who's this Lionheart Chris Jericho?
Guest:He's really popular in Mexico.
Guest:We'll keep an eye on him.
Marc:Well, it's interesting because it seems like there's a never-ending appetite for it in terms of folding these guys into either of the big franchises.
Marc:But if they can't cut it, they just won't cut it.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:You're right.
Guest:They just go away.
Guest:And that's exactly the truth.
Guest:And you get that with any time.
Guest:I mean, do we see it with studios putting a guy in a leading role part?
Guest:It just doesn't work, and you're gone right away.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Bands.
Guest:Bands, they just go through bands.
Guest:If you don't get that hit right out of the gate, you can be done.
Guest:At wrestling, you get a little bit more time, but if you get put in that top position and you don't draw, people don't watch your matches.
Guest:TV ratings are so important.
Guest:I read the minute-by-minute TV ratings every week.
Guest:Of your show?
Guest:Of my show to see how did I do, but how did this guy do?
Guest:Who's drawing every week?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, and you can kind of see this pattern whenever he's on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The ratings go up.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Swerve Strickland is one of those guys.
Guest:He's not a ratings bonanza, but every time he's on, the ratings go up.
Guest:And what do you, you know, do you have a theory about that?
Guest:The connection?
Guest:That's right.
Guest:It's just that with that guy, I would say, is his presence.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:If you look at him on the screen, Jade Cargill is similar in that if you see her on your screen, you think, well, that's an interesting person.
Guest:Yeah, I want to see what this person is doing.
Guest:So that matters.
Guest:And if you don't draw – my boss, Tony Khan, is a numbers fanatic.
Guest:If you are put in a position and your ratings go down, you won't be put in that position anymore.
Guest:So that's part of it is you have to connect.
Guest:People have to watch you when you're on screen.
Guest:If not, you won't be on screen in that position or maybe you won't be on the main show.
Guest:You get put to the next show.
Guest:So it's all kind of there's levels to that, too.
Guest:I think also the ratings are super important these days because the whole business is being driven by these TV deals.
Guest:Like, you know, back in the day when I was a kid, it was like...
Guest:They were just trying to get you to go to the house show matches.
Guest:They literally, WWF paid for their television in your local markets like it was an infomercial, basically, because they knew the money was in getting you out to the match.
Guest:I lived in Albany, New York when I was a kid, and that was where we would go.
Guest:We watched wrestling every week to know what's going to be at the match when we go to see it.
Guest:That is not it anymore.
Guest:If anything, WWE for a while was not doing any of those type of shows because it was a money drain.
Guest:They could just get a billion dollars in a TV deal from USA Network and Fox.
Guest:But that's what is done.
Guest:That's what type of money is at stake.
Guest:So the ratings are everything.
Marc:Wow, because when I was a kid, just like I was telling you before, they would have the wrestling in Albuquerque, New Mexico on Sundays, like a tingly coliseum.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I've been there.
Guest:Is that where you grew up, Albuquerque?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And I just remember, I didn't watch the matches, but I just remember thinking like,
Marc:this is happening right now?
Guest:These guys are down there doing that?
Guest:And they were.
Guest:That was the big thing.
Guest:Like I said, I've been to Albuquerque many times to wrestle because WWE, that was the circuit.
Guest:You go on the road, and so you do your TV on Monday, but Friday, Saturday, Sunday, you're in Albuquerque, and then you go to Tempe, Arizona, then you end up in Phoenix.
Guest:But now it's all about that TV.
Guest:It's all that matters.
Guest:No one's going anywhere.
Guest:Yeah, no one's going anywhere.
Guest:I do think it's interesting that I heard your recent podcast with Jeff Jarrett, and he was saying that there's a focus on doing, you know, we'll call them house shows for lack of whatever you could call it, but into markets where the TV is not going to go.
Guest:And I think that's probably a really smart thing.
Guest:We're not going to do a live TV show.
Guest:We have TV in the market, but we're not going to go to Poughkeepsie and do TV.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:I think that's smart.
Marc:Or just to do a live show to bring people out?
Guest:Yeah, but that's nothing too.
Guest:The younger guys need the reps.
Guest:The reps, yeah.
Guest:You know this as a performer.
Guest:The only way you get better is by keep doing it.
Guest:I thought another amazing thing on that Jeff Jarrett show was, you know, I was talking to you before about how there's a kind of disreputable quality to the history of wrestling, mostly because of its carny roots and everything.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:And it was even as late as with that incident he was talking about with you was 1999.
Guest:And it didn't occur to me until he said it on your show that WWE went public two days later after he had an incident, this wrestler had an incident where he was leaving the company, but he had a match booked.
Guest:So he's not under contract.
Guest:And he's essentially like, if you want me to stay and have this match and lose, I want this much money, right?
Guest:And he had the check cut.
Guest:From the arena.
Guest:Because the fear of like, this company might screw me.
Guest:Write a bad check or something.
Guest:Write a bad check.
Guest:Like, there's a company that's literally in two days, they're going to go on the path to be worth billions of dollars with a B. And that was still the mentality.
Marc:It's old school wrestling.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:That's why Chuck Berry wanted to be paid in cash.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Before the show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Give me the cash and give me the Cadillac.
Guest:I mean, you've also probably dealt with your fair share of that, of like a club that you wasn't going to pay.
Marc:Oh, yeah, man.
Marc:There were places like in Seattle, that dude, you really needed to get a guarantee of money.
Marc:I remember when I went to Vancouver for that second year at that comedy festival because that guy got a reputation for screwing people out of money.
Marc:And I'm like, I'm not going to go unless you wire me the money up front.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And he wouldn't do it.
Marc:And I literally told my agent, I didn't give a fuck.
Marc:I said, I'm not going.
Marc:I'm not going to get on the plane.
Marc:And it came down to this wire of like, I'm on my way to the airport.
Marc:And I said, is it done yet?
Marc:And he's like, no.
Marc:And I'm like, I'm not going to get on the plane.
Marc:I swear to God, I'm not going.
Marc:And they did it.
Marc:You have to sometimes, right?
Guest:You had some weird shit where it was like Barry Katz would get you guys plane tickets.
Marc:Oh, that was different.
Marc:That was, yeah.
Marc:I don't know what kind of racket that was.
Guest:It sounds totally shady.
Guest:Yeah, like a criminal thing.
Marc:No, it was a guy that was sort of like, it was some sort of pool of frequent flyer miles that he was drawing from that weren't mine or anybody else's.
Marc:I'm not sure how it worked, but you'd get these plane tickets, but you couldn't change them at the airport.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because, you know, they weren't attached to your name or something.
Marc:Because I remember one time I tried to change one, and it was like I was, it was just shy of being arrested.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:When I was in ECW, which was, it was, it was,
Guest:Kind of an underground promotion, but it had a lot of steam to it.
Guest:And I was in Philly, and I slept through my flight, so I called the airline to change the ticket.
Guest:And they said, oh, sure, you can change it, sir.
Guest:Mr. Irvin, we're very sorry about your loss.
Guest:And I said, my loss?
Guest:They said, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're lost.
Guest:I'm like, okay, your brother-in-law.
Guest:They bought me a bereavement fare ticket.
Guest:A bereavement fare means when somebody dies and you need to fly home quickly, you get a bereavement fare.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So the promoter, Paul Heyman, was using bereavement fairs and just say, yes, Chris Irvin's brother-in-law died and he's going to get to Philadelphia by tomorrow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was like a bereavement fair.
Guest:And he's like, yes.
Guest:And he pulls out a pad of paper.
Guest:He goes, if they ask you for proof, you can write, you can show them this note from the coroner.
Guest:And he's like, right.
Guest:He's got like a coroner pad, you know, Dr. Jaime P. Schwartz.
Guest:So yeah, the bereavement fairs was a good one.
Guest:I can't remember who you were saying it was.
Guest:It was somebody that was on the – this was, again, that show I was listening to you doing about the Piledriver video.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you said that somebody was on the set – or I think it was maybe Girls Just Want to Have Fun.
Guest:And it was Captain Lou, that's who it was, who was, like, still selling watches out of a suitcase or something.
Guest:Yeah, in the back, yeah.
Guest:And it's like, again, they were breaking into national MTV, rock and wrestling, and it's like the carny spirit does not go away.
Marc:No, it dies.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I mean, but that's also what's great about it in some ways.
Guest:And that's the thing.
Guest:There's no union for wrestling.
Guest:Is that good or bad?
Guest:It's probably bad, but there'll never be one.
Guest:The only way there will ever be a union in wrestling is if the network says, hey, you guys need to be part of SAG or whatever it
Marc:Well, we were talking about how it could possibly – that there's an argument being made by some people to make it an Olympic sport.
Guest:I'm one of the big arguers for that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think you could totally have a great Olympic sport.
Guest:Because it's as much of a routine as figure skating is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's all choreographed.
Guest:And why couldn't you take the two best Canadian wrestlers and the two best American wrestlers and it's like there's judges and they award your three-minute routine, which is the match you have.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they give you a score.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you'd have, you can, I mean, I was explaining to Mark, like, the very rudimentary nature of, like, what do you watch for in the structure of a match?
Guest:And you could easily create that as part of a scoring system.
Marc:Sure you could.
Guest:It's like, what's their shine?
Guest:What's the heat?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Where's the comeback?
Marc:And that's- But the thing was, is that, like, the risk of it, like, as exciting as the possibility sounds just for legitimacy, is that if you don't bring the announcers with you to the Olympics, it's half the fucking game.
Marc:That's true.
Guest:Well, they have announcers.
Guest:in olympics so you could do it you gotta have the wrestling well you would have them it's just like when you watch the figure skating they got freaking you know scott scott hamilton hamilton he's a guy right yeah so yeah you could have excalibur totally do it man and then you would but everything else is so snobby it'd be hilarious he's so great but it's just like the same thing when you have like like i mentioned like rhythmic gymnastics i mean how preposterous yeah but no one's talking about yam sacks
Guest:Oh, that was the Taz line.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yambag.
Guest:Yambag.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Got one in my match.
Guest:That was from, uh, it was, I think, uh, the young bucks took a shot in the balls.
Guest:Uh, yeah.
Guest:One of the guys in the white pants.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was one of the young bucks.
Guest:I very much enjoy you on commentary, Chris.
Guest:And I, I also, uh, it, it ties into something with Mark here because, uh, one of the things I love is that you just have to flat out call people stupid idiots.
Guest:You're,
Guest:Look at this dumb idiot.
Guest:The double negative, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there was recently, I have my workstation set up.
Guest:I was doing some work and I have a thing set up on a tweet deck so that if there's Marc Maron, I can follow along.
Marc:Make sure he's not getting in trouble.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Basically.
Guest:And all of a sudden one night I see people going like, I think that's Marc Maron.
Guest:Is it Marc Maron?
Guest:Is that Marc Maron?
Guest:And I'm like, what are they talking about?
Guest:And I look and they're watching The Masked Singer.
Guest:And they're guessing that somebody is Marc Maron.
Guest:And I'm like, who could sound like Marc?
Guest:It's interesting.
Guest:So I go and seek it out.
Guest:What are they watching?
Guest:I find the clip and it's this giant purple monster.
Guest:And the song is that song shut up and dance with me.
Guest:And it got maybe 10 seconds into the song.
Guest:I guess however long it takes to get to the shut up and dance with me part.
Guest:And you shut up.
Guest:And I'm like, oh, it's Chris Jericho.
Guest:I've heard him say it in that tone a thousand times.
Guest:To the crowd, to an opponent.
Guest:Shut up, you idiot.
Guest:It was you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just did that actually this past season, just a couple weeks ago it was on.
Guest:And what's this other thing you're doing?
Guest:You're doing Name That Tune or something?
Guest:Name That Tune, I did that.
Guest:They call me for all that shit now, so it was fun.
Guest:It's fun to do.
Guest:I like the Masked Singer thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Was so, once again, so preposterous.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's the...
Guest:dumbest thing in the world but it was it's like oh that sounds like it could be fun i'll give it a try and it was great same with name that tune i mean dude i was so into it it's like if i i don't want to give anything away but i was so into this show this stupid name that tune you're just like oh yeah yeah yeah yeah it was fun i mean that sort of stuff is fun that's great and then you've got this cruise coming up too right the jericho chris jericho's rock and wrestling rager at sea it's our fourth one
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:Like, I heard you doing this.
Guest:You do matches and music?
Guest:Like, a lot of them.
Guest:I couldn't believe it.
Guest:Like, I've heard about it years ago, and I was like, oh, that's cool.
Guest:They do a cruise.
Guest:Like, it'd be like the Disney cruise or something.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's like, you keep scrolling on the website.
Guest:Like, there's 100 people involved in it.
Guest:My band did the Kiss Cruise in 2015.
Guest:And as soon as we docked, I called my manager.
Guest:I was like, dude, we can do this.
Guest:We can do a cruise with wrestling and rock and roll.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And just my goal is just barrage people with activities.
Guest:There's so much shit going on this thing that they'll want to come back the next year and the next year after that.
Guest:Comedians, they got a lot of comedians on it every year.
Guest:Just make it a total entertainment.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:For how long are you out there?
Guest:It's four days.
Guest:Oh, that's not bad.
Guest:Yeah, it's not too bad.
Guest:And wait, you leave from where?
Guest:Miami.
Guest:And yeah, this year it's a great Stirrup Cay, which is a private island.
Guest:Sometimes it's Bahamas, sometimes it's Cozumel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's a great time.
Guest:It's a blast.
Guest:So what made you decide to start learning a little bit more about wrestling, Mark?
Marc:Well, Brendan's sort of hopping on this idea that I want to sort of enjoy my life more.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't have enough.
Marc:Diversions to hobbies.
Marc:Yeah, hobbies.
Marc:And I don't always know what's a good time.
Guest:What we were trying is I worked too, because we thought it would be like good podcast material if he got into something that he had no interest in.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was like we started like trying to get him to watch like the Marvel movies.
Marc:Yeah, I didn't do it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that was the thing.
Guest:And then the thing was like, for me, I didn't give a shit.
Guest:So I was like, okay, then don't do it.
Guest:I'm not going to like force you to do this.
Guest:And it was literally at that full gear.
Guest:Like I was just having a blast and I was like, Mark should be here.
Guest:We should be doing this together.
Guest:And I'm a lifelong fan.
Guest:So I can actually bring some passion to convince him like, this is a good hang.
Guest:Like we can enjoy this, you know?
Guest:But it's interesting, too, though, because all the time you're doing GLOW, you didn't want to— Well, I mean, you know, I took that—you know, I got that part, and I knew what my position was.
Marc:And I thought that to some degree it would serve me better if I didn't.
Marc:Gotcha.
Marc:You know, that this guy didn't plan on being a wrestling director.
Marc:Which is kind of the story, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, he saw himself as a director-director.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then, you know, sort of took, you know, he grew to love them and he grew to, you know, sort of get involved with it.
Marc:But still, throughout that series, you don't get the feeling he knows about wrestling.
Marc:You know, it's the other kid.
Marc:It's Chris Lowell.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He seemed to know.
Marc:The rich kid, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:He was the fan.
Marc:So it didn't compel me.
Marc:And, you know, Brendan's been booking wrestlers on one show or another that we've had for years.
Marc:I mean, we did bits with Mick Foley when we were on radio, when I was on radio and he was producing me on radio.
Marc:And then I interviewed Colt Cabana, you know, years ago.
Marc:I interviewed Punk.
Marc:I interviewed his wife.
Marc:What's her name?
Marc:AJ.
Marc:AJ, yeah.
Marc:So I've talked to all of them.
Marc:But I don't think I really got...
Marc:you know, what it means to watch it or enjoy it until today.
Marc:Oddly.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because, like, you know, he's real into it.
Marc:But, you know, maybe it's something to do with where I'm at in my life or whatever.
Marc:But I was just able to watch it today with him saying, like, it's about the story.
Marc:It's about all these things.
Marc:And, you know, I sensed it.
Guest:I got it.
Guest:When you come at it with that idea, it'll really open up to you.
Guest:It's like, it's like, like walking dead.
Guest:It's not a show about zombies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a show about society and about relationships.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Zombies are the background wrestling is almost the same.
Guest:It's not about the body slam.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That's a part of it, but it's the storyline that matters.
Guest:It's all.
Guest:All that matters.
Marc:And it's also just not being condescending, right?
Marc:So, you know, just let it happen.
Marc:I mean, if you're going to bring all that baggage to it, like, this is stupid.
Guest:And there's such a stigma about wrestling for an honor.
Guest:All that shit is fake.
Guest:Every single movie.
Guest:No, I get it.
Marc:But, like, it seems like that stigma is, like, not...
Marc:as prevalent anymore.
Marc:Like, it seems like, you know, there's been so much pushback over the years against people saying it's fake.
Marc:It's like, of course it is, but so what?
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:That was ultimately it.
Guest:It's a live stunt show.
Guest:It's a modern-day Shakespearean play.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It really is, you know, and that's, if you look at it that way, you can really appreciate it so much more.
Guest:Well, it's great talking to you, man.
Guest:Yeah, great talking to you, man.
Guest:I'll see you tomorrow.
Guest:I'm excited.
Guest:Yeah, I'm excited to see what you think.
Guest:There you go.
Marc:It's not an unusual life to me in some ways.
Marc:Wrestling with Mark continues next week with the AEW owner and CEO, Tony Khan, who talks about what it takes to create a wrestling promotion and the weekly shows.
Marc:And that was also a surprise guest.
Marc:So I hope you're enjoying these.