BONUS Producer Cuts - Colin Hanks, Andrea Riseborough, Elvis Mitchell, James Gray, Todd Field, Brendan Fraser
Guest:Hi, it's Brendan.
Guest:Welcome back to Producer Cuts.
Guest:I am the producer of WTF with Marc Maron, so that makes sense.
Guest:And if you've never heard these before, this is essentially our outtake segment that we do.
Guest:Although I don't like to call it that because outtakes kind of makes it feel like they're things that were thrown on the cutting room floor.
Guest:You didn't really want them.
Guest:And generally, all the things I put in these producer cuts are things I really wish I could have kept in the show.
Guest:But for whatever reason, we weren't able to.
Guest:And now that we have this outlet on WTF+, I feel like it's great for you to all hear them.
Guest:Now, I would like to welcome anyone who's never heard this before because I know we have a lot, and I want to emphasize that, a lot of new subscribers.
Guest:And I guess since this is producer cuts and we talk about some behind-the-scenes things, I could talk a little bit about this first before we hear the clips.
Guest:So as many of you are aware, we started doing a series about a month ago called Wrestling with Mark.
Guest:The idea for this was very old.
Guest:It actually goes back to us thinking we would do this with the Marvel movies, where Mark would kind of sit and take in all the Marvel movies and then talk to actors from them and maybe super fans and people who could kind of get him into a world that he wasn't totally invested in.
Guest:And he never really got into it.
Guest:I was having a hard time getting motivated, getting him to do it.
Guest:And we had thought, well, maybe there'll be something else that comes along.
Guest:We could do a series like this.
Guest:And it was the whole idea was to create a kind of regular series in our bonus content.
Guest:And we were just looking to experiment with it.
Guest:That's what we're doing here with this WTF Plus content.
Guest:We're just looking at ways to experiment with things we're never able to do on the main feed.
Guest:And if you heard the series, you hear how it landed on wrestling and why we wound up doing wrestling.
Guest:And frankly, we just thought it was a fun time.
Guest:We thought maybe what this would do is kind of engage our WTF Plus subscribers to be listening every week and hearing the journey that Mark was on.
Guest:What we did not expect...
Guest:was that we would add basically 50% to our subscriber base, which is what happened.
Guest:You wrestling fans, man, I mean, I know you, I'm one of you, but you really want your wrestling content.
Guest:And we were not expecting
Guest:The amount of signups that we got over that four-week period.
Guest:But I have learned many lessons since we started this show back in 2009.
Guest:One of the biggest ones was adapt to success, even if that success was unforeseen or unexpected.
Guest:A lot of you have probably heard Mark or myself tell this story that back in 2009...
Guest:We intended for the podcast to be a paywalled show from the get-go.
Guest:We released a couple episodes.
Guest:Our goal was after about four weeks, we would put things behind a paywall.
Guest:And you'd go to your iTunes feed and hear the first eight minutes.
Guest:And then if you wanted to hear the rest, you'd pay for it.
Guest:And it just grew really fast in those first four weeks.
Guest:And we thought, well, that would be stupid to paywall this.
Guest:Let's just go right ahead and keep offering it for free.
Guest:And...
Guest:that turned out to be a pretty good decision because it became the show you still hear today.
Guest:Similarly, I think what we're assessing after we did the Wrestling with Mark series is if we bring audiences on board from other areas, let's be kind to those audiences.
Guest:So as well as getting the weekly bonus content that you're going to get right now and every week,
Guest:We're going to start doing some content that is kind of specifically oriented around wrestling for the wrestling fans who joined up.
Guest:Any of you who are already on board, you might not like wrestling and you don't have to listen to that.
Guest:It's going to be on Fridays.
Guest:It's going to be a discreet show separate from what we're doing here in the bonus content.
Guest:But if you do like wrestling and you liked what we did on the Wrestling with Mark series, I think you're going to like what we're going to do for you on Fridays.
Guest:So that's a little explanation of what we're doing here.
Guest:But today for producer cuts, we've got a lot that have been waiting since we've been busy with the wrestling series.
Guest:And we'll start out with three things that I had to cut because, as I've said before, sometimes Mark and the guest get going right from the start.
Guest:The guest might not even realize the mics are on or that they're recording, but they start talking, they get off on a good topic, and then it just has no entry point for the listener.
Guest:There winds up being a better spot to actually start the interview where Mark says, so what are you doing?
Guest:Or what brings you out here today?
Guest:Or, you know, where'd you grow up?
Guest:Those are usually the good entry points.
Guest:And in these three clips with Colin Hanks and Andrea Risborough and Elvis Mitchell, it was fun, interesting stuff at the beginning that...
Guest:I didn't feel we could just needle drop into.
Guest:And I hated to cut it, but I did.
Guest:And now you guys get to hear it.
Guest:So first you'll hear Colin Hanks and Mark talk mostly about guitars.
Guest:Andrew Risborough talks with Mark about acting with Kate Winslet and Christian Bale.
Guest:And then Mark and Elvis relate to each other in that they both host audio programs and they had to do them over Zoom during the pandemic.
Guest:And I want to note for you before we get going, there will be a clip at the end of this episode, and I will give you plenty of heads up about it.
Guest:The reason that it's getting put on here is because it is spoilerific.
Guest:Lots of spoilers for the movie The Whale when Mark talked to Brendan Fraser.
Guest:So I took that out of the episode because it had so many spoilers.
Guest:But if you have seen The Whale or you don't care about spoilers, that clip will be at the end of this episode.
Guest:I will give you a heads up.
Guest:Do not worry.
Marc:Do you play guitar?
Guest:I do.
Guest:Oh, you do?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got primarily Gibsons and then a couple of rando guitars throughout the... Like rando electric guitars?
Guest:A couple of electrics, yeah.
Guest:Like weird guitars?
Guest:Not necessarily weird, although there's this one... I'm trying to remember...
Guest:What it's called, it's like a Schaefer electric.
Guest:It's like the electric, the speaker and the effects are built into the guitar.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Well, Schaefer used to make parts.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think if that's the same company.
Guest:It could be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're out of Inglewood.
Guest:That, that much I know, but they're like.
Guest:All these boutique.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Things going on.
Guest:And it's weird because when you hold it, you sort of feel, it feels like one of those old sort of Sears kind of.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Kind of things.
Guest:But then once you turn it on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the effects that are in it are actually really pretty solid.
Guest:Like they're, they're really nice.
Guest:And so.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a, it's great for, um, like if you're out somewhere.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:out and around yeah and you're playing with other people yeah whoever's playing in the car whoever's playing lead like that's the one because it can just cut just a little bit louder than everybody else it's it's it's great it's really I gotta do I gotta do more I'm on a no pedal thing you know I have a bunch over there and I've gotten rid of a bunch that get sent to me same I'm just trying to be pure with the tube thing yeah
Marc:And it's okay.
Marc:But then I'll plug into some pedals, and I'll be like, oh, why the fuck am I not using this?
Marc:This is fun.
Guest:And next thing I know, I've got 18 pedals, and I'm like, what am I doing?
Guest:I'm looking for trying to find pedal board organizers and shit.
Marc:I have a pedal board somewhere that someone sent me, and it's all taken apart.
Marc:I don't, but what am I preparing for?
Marc:I barely play.
Marc:I mean, I play a lot, but I'm not like a professional.
Marc:Are you recording your shit?
Marc:No, I'm not.
Marc:I'm not doing any of that.
Marc:So how many guitars you got?
Marc:I got probably around 10.
Marc:Right, but how many did you pay for?
Guest:Almost all of them.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Almost all of them.
Guest:I would say, well, three I didn't.
Guest:Three were gifts.
Marc:I try to get them for nothing.
Marc:They were gifts.
Marc:I really do.
Marc:I try to get them for free.
Guest:Oh, I'll take any guitar for free.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'll take any guitar for free.
Marc:A Stephen Frears movie?
Guest:No, it's a series called The Palace, which is a bit like...
Guest:It's a bit like Death of Stalin and The Favourite Had a Baby starring Kate Winslet.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:You're going to work with Kate?
Marc:I've just worked with her.
Marc:Oh, it's done.
Guest:And we're going to work again together.
Guest:So I just finished working with it and we start again in January on this thing that I've just described.
Marc:Do you know her?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You've known her for a long time?
Guest:Not a long time.
Guest:We met because she got in touch with me about playing Audrey Withers in the Lee Miller film that she's just made that she was producing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so we just shot that now in Budapest.
Marc:You just shot the film.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So I like her.
Marc:She's wonderful.
Marc:I think she's kind of amazing.
Guest:She's lovely and wonderful.
Guest:And I don't know what normal means, but she's quite normal.
Marc:But she's one of these people that, you know, through her life because of the way she entered the business and because of the attention she got and all the negative and weird attention and this and that.
Marc:She had to actually move through all that almost as a kid.
Guest:As a kid, yeah.
Marc:And then kind of come out the other side of it with, you know, very grounded and, you know, with some life experience.
Marc:But her acting is kind of astounding.
Guest:It's incredible.
Marc:Did you watch that Mare of whatever?
Guest:Mare of Easttown, yeah, I did.
Guest:And I've just actually just... The night before last, she sent me a link to I Am Ruth, which is the film that she made with Dominic Savage.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And her daughter and son are both in it.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Because they're both working now as well.
Marc:But yeah, that Mare of whatever, like the show wasn't that great, but she was amazing.
Guest:I think she's always extraordinary because she's so...
Guest:utterly committed to everything she's doing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she's got such a wonderful sense of humor and she's so generous.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she has an ability, I think, which lots of people, very few people have.
Guest:Which is?
Guest:To...
Guest:see the piece in its entirety whatever it is you know she can kind of absorb the whole thing right right right all the way through yes not not just sort of narratively from beginning to end but to she's able to sort of have an objective view of of what the piece needs yeah and that's quite rare for a performer being in because i think often we're very much inside of it
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, to see the whole world and to see all the different possibilities.
Guest:To see really everything, the fabric and texture of every single moment in the piece.
Guest:She's so engaged with everything that's happening.
Marc:She can do that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I just talked to somebody about somebody else who can do that.
Marc:I just talked to Scott Cooper, the director, yesterday or two days ago.
Marc:And he said Christian Bale can do that.
Guest:Yeah, yes, and yeah, Scott and I, actually, I was going to, were you talking to me about Pale Blue Eye?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, and we'll talk about everything, but yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Were you supposed to be in that?
Guest:Well, I was going to play Christian's wife again, back to back.
Guest:I mean, I'd done something else in between, but it was going to be in quite close succession.
Marc:Which one did you play his wife in?
Guest:Amsterdam.
Marc:Oh, I didn't see that yet.
Guest:The David O. Russell.
Marc:So did you find that he did have that thing that we're talking about?
Marc:The ability to see everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, working with Christian in every way is, it feels like a homecoming.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:It feels like an intensely cozy tea.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Cup of tea.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Maybe partly because, well, he's British.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But also, there's just a familiarity in the way that he works, so it was...
Guest:With you?
Guest:Yeah, it was lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely.
Marc:So you had a shorthand to it in a way or you understood?
Guest:Just very natural.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just straight in there.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:With no faffing about.
Marc:And no sort of like methody neediness.
Guest:No, because I think, I mean, if you really, you know, if you subscribe to method acting.
Marc:But he's not really that, is he?
Guest:Which means many things now.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Guest:Then really, you are just straight into it anyway.
Guest:It's not, you actually don't faff about very much.
Marc:But it seems like you guys, like, put it together.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like, there's something, I think that some people make choices, but some people just sort of like, they build the thing from the inside and then they're in it.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:As opposed to just sort of like, well, I'm just going to be me.
Marc:I'm just going to make these choices and change my voice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I can't imagine it being very satiating if you're going to be approaching it from the outside in.
Marc:Do people do that?
Guest:I'm sure.
Marc:I guess like if you can, I would imagine that like sitcom actors aren't building big things from the inside.
Guest:Well, that's a whole different thing.
Guest:that's a whole different talent really in a way or a whole different maybe not you have to be talented in order to do it because you have to have uh be able to different mode embrace a lot of things at one time you have to be able to multitask in a sitcom but it's it's a completely it's its own art it's like vaudeville truly yeah or um you know jacobian theater or something yeah
Guest:Many, many things going on at once.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's usually you're moving towards a joke, mostly.
Guest:And a range of reactions.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Don't they have on some sitcoms, I think they have like numbers, you know, like reaction.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:They have like a range of reactions.
Marc:Well, I was watching somebody in one yesterday and it was just this moment where you realize that that kind of acting is all kind of like a little broad.
Marc:And to do it convincingly, you just, you know, people have to...
Marc:not see the seams of it.
Marc:But if you really look at all of them, how are you even accepting that this is a real situation in any way?
Guest:Well, I suppose the common denominator is with any great performance in one whatever platform or in whichever realm is the commitment, is exactly what we're talking about with Kate.
Guest:I guess so, yeah.
Marc:Well, you know, you do this professionally.
Marc:I always find cans are helpful.
Guest:It's always for me if somebody feels comfortable, because half the time people get nervous with them or they're not used to hearing their voices like that.
Guest:If you don't want them, don't wear them.
Guest:Yeah, you can pull it in a little bit.
Marc:All right.
Marc:You mean when you have people in the studio?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yes, which I've done in the last two years four times.
Guest:Oh, that's it?
Guest:Because of COVID?
Guest:But do you have a lot of guests anyways?
Guest:I know I've talked to you a couple times.
Guest:But usually, until COVID, I've never done one without being in the ruins.
Guest:No, twice.
Guest:I've done it twice without being in the ruins.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it's just weird.
Guest:I'm just basically sitting there with my eyes closed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You got to adapt.
Guest:So you didn't do it on Zoom, you just did it on ISDN?
Guest:With some Zooms, but Zoom, as you know, at some point something's going to go wrong.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:You can count on it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can set your, okay, oh.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So they were talking for 20 minutes, they said something really great, and now it's gone forever.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, well, we kind of figured out, we got to figure out a way to do it.
Marc:You know, sometimes we would send people a recorder.
Marc:Right.
Marc:to do backup.
Marc:And then we started having people just record on their phone.
Guest:That's what we started doing.
Guest:It feels like, oh, it's officially janky now.
Guest:You have to have people be their own recording engineer.
Guest:I'm not asking enough of you to come and talk to me about your thing.
Guest:Please record yourself.
Marc:But you know what was interesting, though?
Marc:Everyone kind of adapted to it.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's like when everyone was in the crisis, it wasn't like, once we explained it to the audience, they were like, yeah, we're all compromised here.
Guest:Well, there's some people, most people go along, but some people like Joel Cohen went, no, I'm not doing that.
Guest:Nope.
Guest:I get that.
Guest:Joel Cohen wasn't going to record himself?
Guest:I'm sure he just thought, no.
Guest:On his phone?
Guest:It's okay.
It's okay.
It's okay.
Marc:Was I surprised to hear that?
Marc:No, I was not.
Marc:I can't even get that guy to talk to me.
Marc:So, you know, that's whatever.
Marc:I've never talked to either of the Coens.
Marc:And I haven't talked to McDormand either.
Guest:God, they're so much fun.
Guest:They're really fun guys.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know what the hell I got to do.
Marc:I mean, I think, you know, because maybe we take a different approach, you know, I'm going to get personal.
Marc:You know, maybe you're talking about projects.
Marc:You're not like, so when you were a kid, I mean, it's different.
Guest:Well, I did do a thing.
Guest:I ended up doing this thing with them at the...
Guest:Walker Art Center in Minneapolis.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So they're surrounded by literally friends and family.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like people they've known since their high school.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then they started taking me on this tour of Minneapolis.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:There's this famous restaurant that's basically the size of like an alleyway.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's really narrow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really great breakfast.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And then Frank goes, you know, these guys really like you.
Guest:I went, okay.
Guest:No.
Guest:They lie to people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I saw them once tell somebody that their editor came from the Arsenio Hall show.
Guest:I went, but they're their editor.
Guest:I went, yeah, this poor British guy didn't know.
Guest:So I was like, oh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And I had this thing happen, too, where when I first met them, it was Ethan who talked all the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Joel wouldn't say anything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I was on a plane with him once.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Ethan got on his knees to talk over the seat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Flying from New York to Salt Lake City.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the entire flight, Joel just went, uh.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then suddenly, it's like, I don't know, it was for No Country for Old Men.
Guest:Joel got to the studio 45 minutes, Joel.
Guest:And I thought...
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Just to sit here?
Guest:Because he rode his bike instead of taking the subway.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:He took the subway and Joel was taking the car.
Guest:That's what it was.
Guest:Did he talk?
Guest:His four or five grunts are going to be completely used up.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then they sit down and suddenly it's Joel who's doing all the talking.
Guest:And Ethan is like, they went, okay, we did this for long enough.
Guest:Let's switch off.
Guest:I don't know what it is.
Marc:Yeah, I wonder.
Marc:There's water there if you want it.
Marc:That can right there is water.
Marc:But it says liquid death on it.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It's whatever.
Marc:They were a sponsor once, and now I get two crates of it a week.
Guest:Is it like Mel Brooks saying years ago, he mentioned razor nets and blazing saddles, and you got crates of it for 20 years?
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's exactly what's happening.
Guest:Let's see the watch.
Marc:Is that an Omega?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You like those?
Marc:So is this.
Marc:Oh, that's pretty.
Marc:Are you a watch guy?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I was never a watch guy.
Marc:I had one that my mom gave me a tag, and it was fine.
Marc:It was a nice little watch.
Marc:But that's a very nice watch.
Marc:No, I know, but my buddy Dean is sort of like, oh, we got to get you.
Marc:I'm like, really?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So I wasn't a total watch nerd.
Marc:The original one I got had the- The movie face on it.
Marc:Well, it had the helix.
Marc:This is glass.
Marc:It's a glass crystal.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But they're not originally with glass.
Guest:No, no, because glass breaks.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Plastic.
Guest:But the plastic was terrible because I scuffed it up immediately.
Guest:But the thing about plastic, though, is you can have it buffed out.
Marc:yeah i know but i don't want to keep buffing it i want to look at it i just want my watch to be pretty so like you know i had the thing a day and it got scrapped it got scratched up and i'm like fuck this is there a way i can get glass get rid of the cats they scratch they wanted no it's like i'm just messing give us the watch give us the watch we want the watch i wish that was it what it is is that my hand hangs exactly at the at the same level as countertops so like in my house like look see
Guest:You can do the old thing where you turn the face inside.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I mean, I'm happy with it.
Guest:It's a pretty watch.
Guest:The thing is, this is a left-handed watch.
Guest:Do you got to wind it?
Guest:It's electric.
Guest:It's a quartz watch from the 70s.
Marc:I was wondering about that design.
Marc:I'm like, when's that coming back?
Guest:Probably never.
Guest:It's from the 70s.
Guest:Rolex and Paddock all did these electro quartz watches in the same mechanism in the early 70s.
Guest:This is the watch.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But it's also left-handed.
Guest:See the stems over here?
Guest:Oh yeah, that's pretty.
Guest:You're a lefty.
Guest:No, I just like left-handed watches.
Guest:No, stop it.
Guest:So I end up banging my hand over here.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:See?
Guest:So you have a left-handed watch.
Guest:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:All right, that was Elvis Mitchell.
Guest:And before that, Andrea Riseborough.
Guest:And before that, Colin Hanks.
Guest:And the next two were clips, both with directors.
Guest:And they just happened to be kind of tangents within the middle of Mark's conversation with these directors.
Guest:that I don't know, maybe it's because they're directors and they're so flexible with going off topic.
Guest:These were two kind of off topic moments that I felt derailed the conversation they were on.
Guest:But at the same time, I really liked what they were talking about.
Guest:And I think anybody would enjoy hearing Mark and James Gray talk about philosophy or Mark and Todd Field talk about jazz.
Guest:They just didn't work in the moment when this happened.
Guest:So here are those two moments.
Guest:First, we'll hear Mark and James Gray.
Guest:And then Mark and Todd Field.
Guest:And I read a lot of the guys that you have trouble getting through.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like who?
Guest:Well, like, do you know who Jacques Lacan is?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Louis Althusser.
Marc:Well, I've read Brogiard, Foucault.
Marc:Oh, so then you're doing well.
Marc:Yeah, but I can't say that, you know, I got all those semi-textbooks, you know, and I got, you know, I get through it.
Marc:I mean, Baudrillard, if that's how you say his name.
Guest:Jean Baudrillard, yeah.
Marc:He's a little more accessible in a way.
Marc:He's funny, you know, and he writes in a way that you can understand.
Marc:He's kind of a postmodern clown who wants to make it understandable.
Marc:Foucault is difficult for me.
Guest:Yeah, I read Discipline and Punish by Foucault, which I thought was quite amazing.
Guest:The opening of Discipline and Punish, the first, you're talking about the gist, is one of the most amazing pieces of writing ever.
Guest:It's the recounting of a person being drawn and quartered in front of Notre Dame, and it is astounding.
Guest:A guy yelling in pain, and it's really incredible.
Guest:Yeah, it's visceral beyond belief.
Marc:Well, that kind of stuff is good.
Marc:Cultural criticism is okay.
Marc:I can handle that more than I can philosophy, but I still can't read Benjamin.
Marc:I don't know what the fuck is it.
Guest:Walter Benjamin?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, some of that stuff is great, but it's been 30 years since I read it, so maybe I should go back to it and see how hard it is.
Guest:Mike Davis just died.
Guest:Mike Davis, I don't know.
Marc:City of Courts.
Marc:He was a cultural critic out of Davis, I think.
Marc:City of Courts is about Los Angeles.
Marc:It's pretty great.
Marc:Oh, maybe City of Courts does sound familiar, but I don't know.
Guest:I haven't read it.
Guest:I can't claim it.
Marc:What was I trying to process?
Marc:The two books that changed my life was The Denial of Death by Ernest Becker.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:And The Fantasy Bond, in terms of things that changed the way I saw the world.
Guest:I think for me, it's more painting that changes my way.
Guest:Maybe it's a visual thing.
Marc:I just went to the Rothko Chapel.
Guest:What did you think of that?
Guest:In Houston.
Guest:I love him.
Guest:He's like beyond, next level.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he moves me greatly.
Guest:And actually, a lot of American art from 19... I don't know if you call him an American.
Guest:He was born in Russia.
Guest:But 1920 to about 1980.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That section of American art moves me tremendously.
Guest:Yeah, like who else?
Guest:Well, I love, I mean, it's a cliche, but Jackson Pollock's incredible.
Guest:And Barnett Newman is an incredible artist.
Guest:And I really love also some like Europeans, like Lucio Fontana.
Guest:I don't know if I know him.
Guest:Yeah, he would make these slits and canvases and call them like spatial concept.
Guest:But they're really, really stirring.
Guest:Of course, I love de Kooning.
Guest:I miss so many people.
Marc:It's a hard time with de Kooning and Kandinsky.
Marc:There's something about- You don't like them?
Marc:It starts to annoy me.
Marc:Why is that?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Too busy?
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:But I can handle Pollock, and Rothko I can deal with very well.
Marc:I love him.
Marc:The chapel's amazing because they're later paintings, and they're completely dark.
Marc:They're just void paintings.
Marc:They're not even... There's no... The color is...
Marc:almost hard to see.
Guest:Yeah, it's like a shock to the system almost.
Guest:I find him really... I think he is on a level, frankly, somewhat higher than basically everybody else in that sector.
Guest:Yeah, it's relieving.
Guest:To me, I find peace in it.
Guest:Well, that's why I say I get more from that than I do from books these days.
Marc:So, all right, but you're at USC, you're doing...
Marc:Well, that's exciting.
Marc:I mean, who are your jazz guys?
Marc:I mean, who do you go to now, like, when you want to listen?
Marc:Oh, well, that's a tough call.
Marc:I mean, well, if you're going to throw something on, like, because, like, you know, I've started, you know, the last few years to get into it, but it's like it's a hell of a rabbit hole, you know, and you sort of end up.
Marc:around the top with the guys everyone knows.
Marc:And sometimes you go deeper.
Marc:But lately, I've been listening to some of that Mingus stuff.
Guest:I've been listening to a lot of Charlie Mingus.
Guest:Lately, I've been listening to a lot of Bill Evans.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:What is that about?
Marc:I'm like, I'm fucking a freak for Evans.
Marc:I got all these records.
Marc:I can't get enough Evans.
Guest:And for years, I didn't give a shit about Bill Evans.
Guest:Yeah, I think it's funny.
Guest:I feel the same way.
Guest:I feel kind of like I finally walked into the right room and I understand him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's the weird thing with jazz if you're kind of into it, where you're sort of like, you know, it's all right.
Marc:And then like all of a sudden you find some window, you learn something about him.
Marc:And you're sort of like, well, that's interesting.
Marc:The sort of weird classical training that the guy had, you know, and also the deep dope addiction.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then you start listening to the riffs.
Marc:It was, I think I got there through miles.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's what happens.
Guest:You know, you get you have a gateway drug.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You start as a young player.
Guest:Like you're playing, you know, whatever, Dixieland.
Guest:Then you're playing something like popular jazz.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then all the older guys would always tell you, wait till you wait till your ear starts to get accustomed to it.
Guest:Right now, I'll play you this.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Play you some Coltrane and go and you go, oh.
Guest:Yeah, all those diminished whole tones, all those minor chords that really bother you right now, but get ready.
Guest:You're going to get really turned on to them when your ears start to expand.
Guest:Oh, interesting, yeah.
Marc:That's what happens.
Marc:It is, man.
Marc:I talked to Ron Carter a few weeks ago.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Dude.
Guest:Ron Carter—I saw Ron Carter in 1980, 82 in Portland.
Guest:And Ron Carter was somebody that—one of my great, dear friends, incredible player, Ben Wolfe, who played with everybody from Wynton Marsalis to—
Guest:you know, to you name it.
Guest:And I saw him about a month ago.
Guest:He studied with Ron.
Guest:And I think he says he's amazing.
Marc:He's like a fucking tree, dude.
Marc:And he's like, he was never fucked up.
Marc:Always, you know, showed up for work, you know, and is like one of the architects of like modern jazz.
Marc:But not...
Marc:He was the guy they'd call to try to keep the other guys in line and get the work done because he wasn't strung out.
Marc:But he's been on like 2,000-some-odd records.
Marc:Yeah, it's incredible.
Guest:And where do you even start with that?
Guest:Well, yeah, and that is the thing about jazz, which is like, you know, in pop music, you look at a group like the Wrecking Crew recently that everybody discovered through that documentary.
Guest:And people at Capitol, everybody knew those players.
Guest:But in jazz, we know all these side men, and they're mainly men, you know?
Guest:But sometimes they're listed and sometimes they're not.
Guest:So unless you're like Nat Hetoff, you know, and you can go back and research who were playing on those dates, you don't know.
Guest:You have to really know their sound.
Marc:So you're saying you have to have written the liner notes in order to know?
Guest:A little bit, yeah.
Guest:All right, that was Todd Field, director of Tar, and James Gray, director of Armageddon Time.
Guest:Okay, and we have come to that time where I am about to play a clip of Mark talking with Brendan Fraser, and they spoil the ending of the movie The Whale, okay?
Guest:So if you care about spoilers on that level,
Guest:and you still want to watch The Whale fresh, you don't want to know anything that happens, you probably got enough out of this episode and you can turn it off now, okay?
Guest:But anyone else who wants to hear the spoiler section of Mark talking with Brendan Fraser, I think you will enjoy this.
Guest:I think it was a revealing discussion about the end of that movie.
Guest:So here is Mark and Brendan Fraser, and I will go slow if you aren't able to get to your button yet and you want to turn this off.
Guest:Here comes the conversation about the end of the whale.
Marc:I think for me the most powerful moment in the film is that stuff between the daughter and him at the end.
Marc:You know, where he confesses to something, to surrender, to free himself.
Guest:He implores his students to be honest, just write something honest instead of just summarizing Wikipedia for his assignments.
Guest:And, you know, the notion that it's never said in the movie, but that will set you free.
Guest:And he has to be honest with himself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Also, because he keeps the camera on his computer turned off for elaborate reasons to hide his shame and to obscure the perception of him and passing judgment and all of that.
Guest:So, you know, it's just a quick fix.
Guest:But once he turns it back on, he's being honest to them.
Guest:And he knows that that's the end of it.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:He knows that.
Guest:And his.
Guest:And it's almost like he's looking at himself.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That was just going to say the mirror is held up.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, it's that's the most honest thing we can do as well.
Guest:You know, you can cast judgment on everyone else.
Guest:Look in, look within, look at yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You might learn something about yourself.
Guest:Didn't want to know or you just learned and now you have to contend with it.
Guest:You know it and you can't pretend that you don't anymore and you have to deal with it.
Guest:And he does.
Guest:And his manner is to speak the words basically, I am sorry to his daughter for having had effectively abandoned her at the age of eight.
Guest:And that...
Guest:Clearly, you know, you don't, maybe he didn't know that when it happened, but he, you know, he has to basically pay the bill on that one now, and the day has come, and once he does speak those words of contrition to her...
Guest:It's almost as if a spell breaks.
Guest:When he says why.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And then, of course, the through line of him asking her to read her own essay.
Marc:Yes, which you don't know is hers.
Guest:No, you don't know that until she does.
Guest:And she makes the realization.
Guest:And then once she's so resistant to this whole idea and thing, definitely not reading it aloud to him, like, what is this, a bedtime story, a mean game or something?
Guest:It's almost like it's a magic spell from a fantasy movie.
Guest:You know, you read the page.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Something happens when you read.
Guest:They just paraply around or whatever.
Guest:But something happens.
Guest:And it's like he gets some release.
Guest:And then from there on, he can summon the strength to take to his feet, which is a huge...
Guest:accomplishment for him under any other circumstances.
Guest:Which she asked him to do earlier.
Guest:Which she taunts and menaces him and goads him to prove himself cruelly to him.
Guest:And he says, I can't do that.
Guest:And she takes his walker away from him.
Guest:And he stumbles and falls and cracks a rib.
Guest:And Darren shot that like a straight-ahead action movie.
Guest:We had a stunt coordinator, breakaway furniture, all that, all that, all that.
Guest:And limited takes so I didn't repeat my own mistakes from years past.
Guest:That was fun.
Guest:Let's do it again.
Guest:Yeah, I can play Hurt.
Guest:That's fine.
Guest:Just wrap me up.
Guest:Get me back.
Guest:Give me the ball, coach.
Marc:But also the device of...
Marc:the daughter's cruelty turned back on her.
Marc:That's interesting.
Marc:Well, I mean, that's how I read it.
Marc:What's the woman, your caretaker's name?
Marc:Liz.
Marc:It's Hong Chao.
Marc:Yeah, and she's great.
Marc:When she says that the daughter found that kid's family, because the understanding given that character was that was not intentionally to help.
Marc:It was to be cruel, right?
Marc:Because that's the nature of that character in that moment.
Marc:And that character has not changed.
Marc:I mean, that character's change is at the end.
Marc:So he uses the same device by sabotaging her essay by giving her her own.
Marc:So she reads it.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Why did we not think of this earlier, Mark?
Guest:That is so – I can't wait to tell Sam about this.
Guest:How interesting.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:They're like one and the same.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:They're doing the same thing to one another.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Nicely played, sir.
Guest:Holy fuck.
Guest:I mean, jeez.
Guest:Oh, you didn't realize that?
Guest:Well, we've looked at it in so many angles.
Guest:But that's really an interesting idea.
Guest:So they are very much the same.
Guest:She is her father's daughter.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And he's a lovely guy for all his reasons.
Guest:And he believes in her and knows she's the next guy.
Guest:Francine Prose or Joyce Carol Oates.
Guest:She just doesn't know it yet.
Guest:But that's, you know, parents, adults, and their children.
Marc:But that's the risk.
Marc:It's a very odd thing about the character, right?
Marc:You know, it's a very odd thing about the nature of that.
Marc:That, you know, when...
Marc:The fact that that kid, the missionary, you know, it turned out okay.
Marc:I mean, that's, you know, serendipitous in a sense in that it speaks to the kindness of people.
Marc:That the idea that people are going to be accepting, right?
Marc:And that the theme is people are amazing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But her intention was not that.
Marc:And, you know, it was out of her own, you know, sort of angry desperation for love.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:that she's acting out like this and then manifest that thing.
Marc:And then when she's sitting there like, why'd you do this to me?
Marc:I was like, it's a gamble because with her, that action, you don't know how that will ultimately end.
Marc:And you don't know what happens after whatever happens at the end of this movie, man.
Marc:No, it's not important.
Marc:It's not important.
Marc:And I don't even know if you would say it's hopeful, but it does release you.
Marc:It does.
Yeah.
Guest:okay that's it for producer cuts we'll bring you those whenever they happen and later this week on Thursday we've got another episode with Tim Blake Nelson who came back for a second go around and he and Mark just like talk they enjoy each other's company and so there was no problem getting a second episode out of Tim Blake Nelson and we think you'll really enjoy that then Friday we'll be back to do the very first wrestling recap show
Guest:on the full Marin.
Guest:It'll be me and it'll be our old friend Chris Lopresto and Mark talking about the wild, wacky world of professional wrestling as well as other things.
Guest:It won't just be wrestling.
Guest:It will be a fun time and a fun hang.
Guest:I think you'll enjoy it.
Guest:... ... ...
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