BONUS The Friday Show - Smartening Marc About the Montreal Screwjob
They ultimately did one that was a sit down between him and Shawn Michaels with the guy you hear on commentary on that event, Jim Ross, like moderating.
Tell your size.
Does he talk with the same excitement when he's just doing an interview?
Oh, my God, you're holding a microphone.
Hey, Chris.
Brandon, last night there was a man in my house.
I fought with this man.
He had a mechanical arm.
You find that man.
Happy anniversary, buddy.
Thank you, dude.
Holy cow.
It is 30 years since the glorious, glorious film, The Fugitive, entered our lives.
And I did celebrate.
I celebrated as though it was like a celebration of my own ilk, my own people.
Totally.
And how did you celebrate?
Well, for one, I read that awesome Rolling Stone piece that was like an oral history of the fugitive, which was sent around on a text chain that we were on.
Did you read that?
Oh, yeah.
I gobbled that up.
And I really just made it a meal because I didn't want it to go too fast.
Yeah.
But man, I read it like over the course of a day.
Yes.
I started it and then I stopped it because I wanted to watch The Fugitive.
So I fired up Max and watched it.
And then I continued on and it was just delicious.
Yeah.
Well, I mean.
I've known a lot about the movie since it came out.
It's one of my favorite movies ever.
And I, there was still so much in that piece that I never knew.
There was insight about the making of the movie.
That was amazing.
Tommy Lee Jones was participating in the interview.
So it was great.
Like he was saying exactly what was going through his mind with the thing.
It was fantastic.
It was like just what I've always hoped about the fugitive.
for sure.
I mean, I don't know.
Let's tell people we, we have a history with this movie, not just our own enjoyment of it, but I mean, like I, I love the movie since it came out.
I saw it, you know, in theaters and then I had it.
Oh yeah.
I saw it in theaters and then I had it on VHS and watched it all the time.
And, and, and,
Then I think when I got to college, I met like-minded people who were also like, oh, that's one of your favorite movies, one of my favorite movies, too.
And, you know, we just put it on all the time.
It could possibly be the movie I've watched the most in my life.
Yeah, for sure.
For me, I watched it on HBO back in the day.
I didn't go to the theaters to see it.
It was on HBO, saw it there, loved it, bought it on VHS.
My brother worked at Blockbuster Video, so I was able to buy it.
And my brother had like an early version of the DVD.
And like it was one of those DVDs, I believe it had like a little folder or a little pocket.
The plastic clip.
Yeah, the plastic clip that was so stupid.
Under the plastic clip, it was a cardboard box.
Yes.
Like this, this was one of the biggest blockbusters of all time.
And it came out in this thing that was a cardboard box with a plastic flap, which just instantly I'm like, what is this?
If it gets wet, it's just ruined.
Yeah.
But yeah.
So I,
I burned out the DVD.
I used to put this movie on when I wanted to go to bed.
Like, okay, it's bedtime.
I'm going to put something on that I know.
I just pop in The Fugitive and let that music and the score drift me off to sleep.
Yeah, it's like a nice blanket.
It's a perfect thing to put on at bedtime, I think.
Yeah.
And all your friends are there.
Yeah.
your u.s marshals crew that you've come to know and love uh no it's the greatest i remember i saw it in the movie theater with my parents and we left buzzing like we were like as a family we were like that was so great that was so and we were like quoting dialogue to each other the whole time i i remember seeing my grandfather who was like you know a jaded old new york union man and like
But he went to the movies all the time and theater and everything.
And, you know, I remember seeing him say, Grandpa, did you see any movies lately?
And he was like, oh, yeah, I saw that fugitive.
You got your money's worth with that one.
And I always remember that.
Then I was like, yeah, that was the thing.
You paid your money and everything.
Every minute delivered of that movie.
Yeah, absolutely.
And that Rolling Stone oral history is great.
First of all, it starts off with talking about all these Oscar bait movies like The Piano, Age of Innocence, and The Joy Luck Club.
Guess what?
I still haven't seen any of those movies.
But you know what I have seen is The Fugitive 50,000 times.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, I mean, the other great thing in that Rolling Stone piece was about basically how big of a disaster they thought the movie was.
Like, while they were making it, it had no script.
It was like the pages were being done in real time.
And then they were improv-ing so much of the movie, which it feels like.
Like, that's one of the great joys of the movie is that it's like has this –
like lived in feeling where you're like, Oh, these people all know each other.
Tommy Lee Jones has this great insight about the, the character building at the time that he said, you know, he, he was hanging out with a deputy U S Marshall.
And he said, the one thing he noticed was how much this dude loved his job.
He like loved it.
He was, it was a joy to him to be a U S Marshall.
And he told all the guys and the woman who were playing U S Marshalls, Hey,
We just have to have fun.
Like that's what this guy, he has fun at his job and we got to do the same thing.
And you feel it immediately.
As soon as that crew shows up, you're like, oh, these people, A, know what they're doing.
B, they're awesome.
And C, can I join the U.S.
Marshals?
Totally.
Totally.
Also, I love that Harrison Ford watches the movie Under Siege, a movie that was a guilty pleasure for me as a kid.
Great movie.
And I love that he sees Under Siege and is like, oh, yeah, the guy that directed this should totally be making The Fugitive.
And I just, I can't believe those two movies are connected that way.
I can't believe Harrison Ford watched Under Siege, honestly.
Oh, yeah.
I can tell you this.
I have watched a double feature of Under Siege and then The Fugitive, and it makes total sense.
They are compatible movies.
There are tons of people from The Fugitive who are in Under Siege, first of all.
That director clearly
he was like i liked working with that guy put him in the fugitive and so you see fugitive people all over under siege it is one million percent tommy lee jones's movie despite the fact that steven seagal is on the poster like these the people making under siege do like and there's somebody in that rolling stone piece says it like yeah we knew we had the worst actor in the world so instead we just relied on tommy lee jones for everything just wonderful
Yeah, well, the other thing that is part of our shared history with this movie is that we went to an epically failed screening of The Fugitive.
We did.
So let me tell this story, if you don't mind.
So we go to what is billed as The Fugitive 35mm screening at the Alamo Drafthouse in Brooklyn.
So we meet up for drinks at their House of Wax Bar.
And I mention it because I think it's going to become relevant, honestly, later on that we had a couple of drinks in us.
So it's time to go to the movie.
We make with our drinks into the theater.
The movie begins, and it's humming along.
Richard's on the bus going to prison.
The bus tips over onto the train tracks.
The train's coming.
The other prisoner says, the hell with you, Doc.
Richard pushes the injured guard to safety.
Richard's about to jump off the bus.
Very iconic scene coming up.
All of a sudden, we cut to wreckage.
Someone cut out of the 35 millimeter print, the iconic bus jump scene.
And the crowd is murmuring.
We personally shriek out like we just saw a dead body.
But the movie somehow continues on.
We're befuddled.
We're talking.
We're just like, what the fuck?
But fine.
We'll press on.
I'll tell you, at the time, I thought it was an accidental reel skip.
You know, like, like how sometimes when you're, when you're switching from real to real, there's a little overlap.
I thought because, okay, it's 35 millimeter.
They're inexperienced here.
They, they put the, they skipped too soon.
Right.
And so we just, but they accidentally skipped at the most vital part.
So, but, but I, you know, you're right.
We were like freaked out.
And then you're right.
We just were like, okay, all right, we'll settle down.
The rest of the movie's coming.
Let's just watch the rest of the movie.
It's still an hour and a half to go.
Yeah, that's right.
So, we get to the scene where Tommy Lee Jones calls for a hard target search, and as he's about to say the famous monologue, the scene cuts to the next day, the tow truck driver getting out of his truck, and we all freak the fuck out.
At this point, the movie stops, and someone from the theater apologizes.
Apparently, the print had been altered, to which I yell out, and by the way, we're in the back of the theater, right?
We're the very last row.
Very last row, far corner.
I'm yelling, top of my lungs, you switched the samples.
And as if I'm Richard Kimball at the end of the movie, the guy looks over to me confused, to which I say again, you switched the samples.
As long as I can.
He picks up what I'm saying and then just continues on addressing the rest of the theater.
And then you say, did you kill Lynch too?
As loud as you can.
This person is now rattled.
All right.
As if we're accusing this person of murder.
And were somehow the only people yelling in the theater?
I didn't really ever register or understand why no one else was.
Exactly.
Why wasn't everyone yelling?
Make your own movie up at that point.
Yeah.
So they offer everyone free movie tickets, free food, I think, and hope that the rest of the movie's intact.
Well, it's not.
Everything.
Famous scene from The Fugitive is cut out.
We're watching the lowlights version of The Fugitive.
I didn't kill my wife.
I don't care.
Cut.
The jump from the dam, gone.
Tommy Lee Jones shooting at Kimball on St.
Patrick's Day, vanished.
We heckled the shit out of this movie the entire time.
The ending was void of any, the entire roof sequence, gone from the movie.
Yeah.
After the movie, we and after the booing of the screen, the lights come up.
And again, the guy apologizes and says, hey, we can't leave until we see the bus crash sequence.
Right.
So they pulled a digital copy and queued it up.
And first of all, like a Blu-ray in the projector.
Yeah.
Or they bought it up from iTunes and then you showed it.
Yeah.
I think they literally said we're going to pop in the Blu-ray.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So first of all, the screen shows up and it's much louder than the shitty 35 millimeter we were just sitting through.
And it looked immaculate.
It looked so good.
Incredibly rich.
And so we're screaming, why didn't you just play this the entire time?
We had to sit through this garbage.
And just as a coda for this start.
All this happened with the two of us and one of my brand new co-workers that I had recently met for the first time told him that, you know, I had an extra ticket to this screening.
He was in town from like Mississippi or something like that.
He was very polite and quiet.
And here we are, these two New Yorkers yelling at the screen.
Yes.
Yes.
accusing them of switching samples and killing leads.
Needless to say, we gave that guy a very good story to go home with.
Also, never saw that guy ever again in my entire life.
Are you serious?
Yes.
I have never seen that man before in my life.
Yeah.
Oh, my God.
That's even better.
So this guy just showed up.
You invite him to the lowlights version of The Fugitive and then never see or hear from him again.
It's like Homer going to New York City and just being behind the trash, you know, the garbage truck on the way home.
He's just like, never do it again.
Yes.
Never go in there.
That place is fucked up.
Now I want to go to Mississippi just to see if this story has made it through the wild.
Like in lore.
Yes.
Don't fuck with New Yorkers and the fugitive apparently.
They get mad.
And then I wound up having a second failed...
Screening experience of The Fugitive.
How is this possible?
Again, a 35 millimeter print.
It wasn't as egregious as this situation because it wasn't that someone vandalized the print.
It was that the projector kept dying.
And I don't know if that's because they, you know, you got to use something different for film than you use for a digital projection, right?
These things get old and then they don't, you know, change the bulbs or whatever.
And this thing just kept...
Like it would, you'd be watching it and then all, and then the light would go out and then the theater lights would come up.
And it did it like three times.
And this was a gift from my son for Christmas.
He said, dad, I want to take you to your favorite movie.
And so he took me to the fugitive and we sat there and had that happen three times.
And then I turned to him and I said, it's okay.
We can go home and watch it.
It's on HBO.
I was still pretty furious.
So sad.
What a sad story that is.
Your son's Christmas gift to you.
The thing that you love to do the most.
Go to the movies.
Watch this movie.
And it was ruined by a 35 millimeter projector.
Yeah.
Did you happen to make it all the way to the end of the Rolling Stone piece?
Because...
they say the director is working on a remastered print that will be out in theater.
This fall.
Yeah, this fall.
So I'm thinking, like, November, we're going to be able to actually see this movie in the movie theater.
Like, I can't wait.
You and I absolutely going.
I want, you know, maybe Owen.
Go with Owen as well.
Like, just make it just go all out because I cannot wait.
Oh, you know a fucking bomb is going to hit the theater the day we go to see it.
There's no chance that it's going to happen.
By the way, in that Rolling Stone piece, just so many nuggets of information.
First of all, Harrison Ford thought that this was going to be his Hudson Hawk.
Telling people on the set.
Oh, my God.
This...
That is akin to, on how did this get made, Paul Scheer talks about, or someone, there's a crew member on Jingle All the Way.
No, no, no, no.
It's the one with Matthew Broderick, which I think is called Deck the Halls.
Oh, yeah, Deck the Halls.
Thank you.
And where a crew member was overhearing Matthew Broderick saying, this is rock bottom.
Yeah, he says, this is the worst that it gets.
Doesn't get any worse than this.
To which Paul Scheer reminded everyone, Matthew Broderick killed a person.
He killed someone with his car.
And this was worse than that.
I mean, just all time belly laugh of a line.
How did this get made?
Also, Tommy Lee Jones, very serious about the definition of improv.
He was very...
very like i i want him to talk to mark about improv because he is very strict he did not think that people were improv-ing that's right during this movie literally making lines up out of whole cloth and he's like there was no improv on this movie we were told what we were going to say and we just said like i want to know what he thinks improv is like oh you saw the bear in the little car huh tommy was that improv
What does he think improv is?
There was also, I love that they just had these U.S.
Marshals that they were working with.
And apparently Joey Pants was saying that, oh, you know, this one guy was talking about this story about this guy jumped off a roof and he said the line, he did a Peter Pan right off that roof.
And Tommy and I had to battle over who would say that line.
Yeah.
I just, I love the idea that this guy's saying that story and Tommy and Joey Pants turn to each other and we're like, that's that.
I'm using that right now.
Yeah, that's in the movie.
And now it's just a matter of fight to the death over who gets to say it.
And of course, Tommy Lee Jones wins out on that one.
Yeah.
The movie is, first of all, hilarious.
There's like, what is this, a trench coat convention in town?
Yeah.
I still say that.
Like, I love that fucking line, that throwaway line.
So many lines I still say in life all the time.
Do you want to change your bullshit story, sir?
All the time.
Yes.
All the time.
Hinky.
I say hinky all the time.
Just before that, when I'm in Chicago, I tell my wife, like, you know, you know, why can't they tie into blue every single day?
To which she watched the movie with me.
And she's like, oh, I get why you say that now.
Every time.
So we got to talk.
Julianne Moore has three scenes in this entire movie.
And she gets fourth billing, which, you know, I believe we were watching a movie once or maybe.
Oh, no, no.
It was Indiana Jones.
I was telling you about the new Indiana Jones.
And I told you, oh, yeah, Anthony.
Antonio Banderas.
Antonio Banderas.
Banderas is in like one scene in this movie and he has like the third billing in the movie and you're like hey great great agent and you know like and so that's what I always thought Julianne Moore had was just a great agent but no she actually was supposed to have a much bigger story she was supposed to be the love interest in this movie fascinating
Yeah, yeah.
I'd always assumed that, that there was something.
I don't know about love interest, but I always assumed, oh, she had a much bigger part that was cut out.
And yes, that Rolling Stone piece says, yeah, it was cut out.
It was cut out before even filming.
Like they just said, you know, no, no, we're not going to shoot these scenes.
We're going to cut them from the script.
There are just so many little scenes that the camera just lingers and I just love.
And I remember even for the first time I saw it, I remember loving it.
It was that when after Richard's like making an egg sandwich out of that guy's.
And he leaves a little bit.
Yeah, whoa, whoa, whoa.
He leaves a little bit, but then he's walking down the hall with a sandwich and his coffee, and he runs into a cop, and he's like, shit.
And the cop asks him, you know, oh, have you seen this guy?
And he's like, oh, every time I look in the mirror.
And the cop's like, hey, man.
And Richard left his zipper unzipped.
And so he zips his zipper, and we just linger on the cop turning and walking away, and he's just chuckling to himself.
thinking like that asshole what a dumb doctor or i i always took it as oh look that that doctor's just like us
There are just so many of those little scenes that are in this movie.
And I'm so happy that the chocolate donut with little sprinkles was an improv.
I don't know what Tommy Lee Jones would describe it, but it wasn't a written scene.
Tommy Lee Jones would consider it a Shakespearean sonnet, I guess.
Not just something he made up on the spot because the guy was sitting there.
But there's all like, oh, don't let him give you shit about your ponytail.
Like all that stuff not on the script.
But Tommy Lee Jones was just saying it.
I love that stuff.
That stuff made the movie for me.
Also, there's for me, one of my favorite scenes is Jane Lynch is in the movie.
Right.
And yes.
And so she has a great scene.
The marshals are interrogating her asking, like, oh, you know, have you seen him?
And to which she says, oh, he wouldn't come to me for help.
That's not his style.
Oh, that's not his style to reach out for help when his life depends on it?
The movie doesn't know it yet, but they're describing a typical man.
A typical man just will never ask for help no matter what.
They can do it on their own.
And then he comes back to Jane Lynch for help, to which I always think that it would be great if Jane Lynch was like, oh,
Oh, my God.
Richard, why are you here?
This is so not your style.
I just want to know what she thinks his style is.
Because it's not like she's putting it down.
She's like, oh, you guys, you don't know his style.
What, he's going to rappel in through the ceiling?
He's Batman?
He's Batman, yeah.
I never understood that.
I just love that scene and Jane Lynch just being like, ah, it's not his style to ask for help.
Like, don't you get it?
Speaking of not understanding it,
I have seen this recent trend mostly around this 30th anniversary, but I've seen it before that of people.
I don't know if they're younger than us.
I don't know if it's a generational thing or whatnot, but there are people who say this movie is confusing and doesn't make sense.
My guess is that it probably stems from the, that John Mulaney bit, right?
Where he does that whole bit about being in the, being in the ballroom when the trying to explain what happened.
Yeah.
Yes, right.
If you don't think this movie makes sense, you are dumber than a 12 year old kid who saw this in the theater and understood every solitary second of it.
Like, what does not make sense about this movie?
Right.
Right.
This guy obviously, you know, forged or, you know, switched the samples, made a boatload of money, is now like talking in the middle of this room and stuff.
Like, I get it.
That's why he needed to kill Richard, because Richard was going to play a ball.
Every Columbo episode ever has a plot like this.
Right.
It's so easy.
I can't believe there's a discourse of that.
This movie doesn't make sense.
That's wild.
The dumbest.
But it does bring us to Dr. Nichols, who we should talk about for a second.
First of all, the fact that this this Dutch guy, who's a great actor.
I love this guy.
And there's of course he would have gotten selected because if you look at like his IMDb, he was just always popping up in the in the late 80s, early 90s.
And so they had an actor who then had a fatal brain tumor and he had to leave the set after he'd already shot a bunch of scenes.
But they go and they get this guy, Euron Krabby, I think is how he says his name, although I'm not entirely sure.
I just call him Dr. Nichols whenever I see him.
Uh, we also, I used to call him even before he was known as Dr. Nichols, when he would pop up in things, I would call him the model.
Cause he reminded me of Rick, the model Martell.
So I would see him in movies.
Oh, look, it's the model.
Uh, but, but, uh, but yeah, so Dr. Nichols is, is, you know, this guy jumps into the role.
He's great.
He plays the part great.
He's slimy enough.
And, uh, but, but you know, and insincere enough, but the thing that I can never get over about Dr. Nichols is,
What's that?
This guy is a sick fuck.
He is a sicker fuck than Hannibal Lecter, than Leatherface.
And you know why?
Why?
Because if you go watch that scene when Tommy Lee Jones and Joey Pants come to interrogate him, Dr. Nichols is sitting there.
And on the desk behind him is a picture of him and Dr. Richard Kimball taken the night when Dr. Nichols arranged to have Richard Kimball's wife killed and Richard Kimball framed for murder.
So he knows he did that.
He is pretending that he didn't.
And meanwhile, every day he goes into his office and he looks at that picture and he's like, yeah, I know what I fucking did right there.
100%.
Was the orb that crushed her skull not available?
Like, just unbelievable.
Well, I think basically, too, he was probably planning to have Richard killed, right?
Yes.
That's the thing.
He didn't know that Richard was going to get a phone call and go back to the place.
So they thought they were going to kill Richard, just like he was going to kill Lentz.
Instead...
The wife is brutally murdered and Richard is going to be put to death.
That's like and his entire legacy is that he's a wife killer now.
Right.
Not a vascular surgeon.
The actual thing that Dr. Nichols planned to do to kill these two doctors.
Now it's way worse than.
Like it was a much more horrible thing that happened.
And he's still like, you know what I'd like?
I'd like to be reminded that I did that shit every single day when I go to my office.
I'm going to sit in my swivel desk and I was going to look at that picture.
I ruined a guy's life and just murdered a woman.
I mean, that is.
And now he's going to be put to death.
Yes.
He's on death forever.
row that guy is a psychopath yes you're totally right he has a picture a framed picture of that night oh chilling honestly really chilling stuff uh well before we recorded this uh chris and i said i think we're gonna go long on the fugitive and uh
We absolutely did.
If no one has watched The Fugitive out there, what are you doing?
Why are you even listening to this?
Stop listening and go watch The Fugitive.
It's 30 years old this week.
August 6th was its release date, 1993.
Go enjoy and tell us everything you love about The Fugitive 2 in the comment page that you can find a link to in the episode description.
Just go right there and click on it.
Send us your thoughts.
Send us your questions about anything else, stuff WTF-related.
Do you have anything WTF-related you were wondering about or thinking about, Chris?
You know, Mark is just inspiring.
And I say that because him talking about being in New York and just the energy of it, it made me think...
Yeah, I should totally be out in New York, too.
And so, like, I'm going to go to the Whitney myself because I've actually never been.
I'm going to go to the Whitney.
I'm also going to see Pee Wee's Big Adventure at the Alamo.
Fingers crossed the screen, the projector works.
But I'm very excited for my big New York City outing this weekend.
That's great.
And, you know, the great thing about the Manhattan Alamo is
is that you have to go underground to get to it.
So you will technically be seeing Pee Wee's Big Adventure in the basement of the Alamo.
Oh, that's great.
That's a great, great point.
Yeah, that is brilliant.
Good job on you.
Well, yes, Mark was in town.
He was here in New York.
And I got to spend some time with him.
And in fact, we were just hanging out and chilling.
And then we thought, hey, why don't we record some bonus stuff?
So there's a bonus episode coming up next week where we do an archive deep dive.
And then also I thought, hey, why don't we continue our series of smartening Mark here on the Friday show?
And if you're not aware of what this is,
We've been like trying to get Mark to understand some of the things that wrestling fans just kind of take for granted.
Like, you know, what is a heel turn?
How does it happen?
Or like, you know, what was the deal with Stone Cold Steve Austin and Vince McMahon?
Like, you know, why was that so popular?
And the latest thing that I decided Mark really needs to know about if he wants to have any understanding of wrestling was the Montreal Screwjob.
Yeah.
And if you're unaware of what that is, there's lots of stuff about it.
But in a very brief sense, it was one of the occasions, very few occasions in the history of wrestling where the outcome of the match ended in a way that the wrestler did not expect.
And in fact, it was a way to...
Do what he did not want to happen.
He did not want to lose the match in this way.
And they did it to him anyway, to the person, the man playing the character.
It created controversy and debate about what actually happened for decades.
And I was wondering what Mark would think if he just watched what happened.
Would he be able to discern that something went wrong or something was not what it seemed?
And so here's me and Mark in his hotel room watching the very final minutes of the Survivor Series 1997, which ends with the famous, infamous Montreal Screwjob.
Are you kidding me?
Just had you watch something.
Yeah.
I want you to tell me what it was to you, if you could recount what you saw.
Well, I feel like I saw one of the great matches.
It might be considered that, but not because of it as an actual match.
It is definitely one of the most famous things that's ever happened in wrestling.
Really?
Yes.
And I got to figure that out?
Well, what did you see?
I saw a guy, like just in my limited understanding, I saw a guy that seemed to be being beaten pretty badly by what I imagine was the heel.
Yeah, basically.
Yeah.
And it just sort of like he kept getting, you know, pummeled, but not giving up.
And then eventually in some, you know, kind of a seemingly relentless ongoing underdog situation, the guy looked like he was done.
And then he turned it around rather quickly.
And it seemed like the other guy, you know, you know, it looked like it looked like a bad sort of
It looked like, it was almost like in Raging Bull where LaMotta had to throw the fight.
And that the guy who was supposed to lose didn't lose.
And then the guy that was supposed to win just fucking gave up after a very easy turn.
I mean, understanding it as something similar to a fight getting thrown, that's close.
You're very close.
Okay.
But what you saw was one of the rare instances of an actual screwjob in wrestling.
Okay.
In fact, it's called the Montreal Screwjob, that fight.
Yeah.
And again, is probably one of the top three most famous things to ever happen in a wrestling ring.
Really?
And so what you saw was the one guy who is, as you said, getting beaten for most of the time, Shawn Michaels, who if you do remember back to a couple of months ago, that was the guy who threw the other guy through the window in the barbershop.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And so he was fighting Bret Hart, who was the champion at the time.
And what you saw at the end there was Sean putting after the referee got hit and fell down.
Yeah.
Bret Hart believed that the ref was going to still be unconscious because he just got hit in the head.
This is what he was led to believe.
Yeah.
was going to happen in the match.
Right.
And then he was going to be put in this hold, his own hold, the sharpshooter by Shawn Michaels.
And what was supposed to happen were guys were to run in, started hitting everybody.
Then the ref would come back up out of unconsciousness and disqualify everyone.
Yeah.
Instead, what happened was...
He got put in the hold.
Vince McMahon standing there at ringside said, ring the fucking bell to the person, the timekeeper.
And the ref made a quick hand gesture and that was it.
The bell rang, match was over.
If you noticed that Bret Hart actually gets out of the hold.
Yeah.
Because he was wary of potentially being screwed and knew don't stay in a hold too long because they could pretend you quit.
Right.
Right.
Well, they did anyway.
Pretended he quit, even though it looked like he got out of the hold.
He stood up.
I don't know if you could tell what he did, but he spit the most gigantic loogie on Vince McMahon's face.
Is that who it was?
Yeah.
Yep.
And they gave the title to Shawn Michaels and said, get the fuck out of here.
Yeah.
And raise your hand to look like you won and leave.
And the show went off the air.
The situation surrounding this, what led up to it, the aftermath of it, is still talked about and debated to this day.
They made an entire documentary film about this.
The Montreal Screwjob.
That's right.
It was made the next year, not like a hindsight thing.
A lot of people were festering.
There was a film crew following this guy, Bret Hart, around at the time to do a story about his life, and they just happened to stumble into this.
Yeah.
The backstory of this is that those two guys, Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, were at first kind of, you know, friends or at the very least like colleagues that worked well together.
Yeah.
They were kind of on the come up at the same time.
Young guys who did well and got big around the time after like Hulk Hogan and Hulkamania.
It was actually...
from my limited experience some of the most convincing wrestling i've seen bret hart is considered one of the most convincing and best wrestlers yes like his punches his all of his he was uh known as a guy who made everything look very real yeah but took tremendously good care of his opponents so they never got hurt they uh right you know he prided himself on the guys having no injuries yeah
And yet it was all very convincing.
And even Vince McMahon said he is the best natural storyteller in the ring of anyone that we have.
And so he was often the champion, but then so was this guy, Shawn Michaels.
And it got to a point where the rivalry actually, they did what in wrestling terms is called working themselves into a shoot.
Yeah.
In that they were supposed to work as rivals.
Yeah.
and say they hated each other for this reason or that reason.
And then the shit got too real.
And they started, like, insulting each other, like, for real.
And in one situation, Shawn Michaels, during a promo, and he was admittedly now completely high out of his mind when he did this promo, but intimated that Bret Hart was having an affair with one of the women in the company.
Yeah.
And it caused him tremendous problems at home, as you would expect that to happen when somebody says that about you on national TV.
Yeah.
The funny thing about that is that Sean was actually sleeping with the woman and not Bret Hart.
But that's a sidebar.
Wow.
Anyway, this stuff started to get started to fester.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now, the backstory you need to know about where they were at this point in time was in... This was 1997.
That pay-per-view is called Survivor Series.
Yeah.
But the year before this, in 1996, was the first time since Vince McMahon started the WWF as a national promotion that it was number two.
Mm-hmm.
It had been overtaken by a company called WCW, which had hired Hulk Hogan and then a bunch of other former WWF guys and brought them in in an angle that made it look like the WWF was invading WCW.
And they changed their name to the NWO, the New World Order of Wrestling.
And they were going to destroy WCW.
It was this big, highly visible angle.
And they took over the number one in the ratings, number one in pay-per-view sales, house shows, all this stuff.
So Vince found himself in this position that he was number two and was losing wrestlers to this rival company.
Yeah.
And so Bret Hart, who was one of his top guys, was his contract was up and he was negotiating between the two sides.
Yeah.
Go to WCW, stay here.
And Vince thought, I will die if this guy also goes.
And now it's like my former champions left.
And so he gave Bret Hart a 20 year contract, basically making him a WWF guy for life.
Yeah.
He would wrestle for a few more years and then work in like the front office and be a producer, talent agent, that kind of thing.
Right.
Well, a year later, Vince is starting to regret this contract, the financial burden of it.
Of carrying heart?
Yes.
20 years, he's going to pay this guy whatever, a million dollars every year, whatnot.
He wants out.
Now it's also not going to be as damaging if he goes to WCW because that influx of guys leaving and going to WCW has ended, that exodus.
Was he still number two?
They're still number two.
But-
Vince is starting to see a future in other guys.
Yeah.
Mainly that guy, Shawn Michaels.
Right.
Also, Stone Cold Steve Austin is starting to rise around this time as well.
So, he basically tacitly allows Brett to go back and negotiate with WCW.
Brett doesn't want to.
He wants to stay with Vince.
20 years.
Good deal.
That's right.
But also, he has like a loyalty thing and he sees Vince as kind of like a father figure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so reluctantly, he goes back to WCW and says, I don't know, is that offer that you gave me back then still on the table?
And the guy who's in charge over there says, what do I need to do to get you here?
And he gives him ridiculous money, like can't say no, can't refuse money.
And so he goes back to Vince.
Bret Hart goes back to Vince and says, I'm giving this offer, but I want you to convince me to stay.
Vince does not do that.
He gives him every reason to say, go take that offer.
He wants to be done with it.
That's right.
There is one rub in Brett's giant 20-year contract.
It says he has creative control, reasonable creative control in the end of his contract if he were to terminate the agreement.
So this is so they can't make him leave as like a schmuck, right?
If you're going to go somewhere else, we'll have you get beat by 20 guys.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
part of his reasonable creative control is he says, I can decide if I want to lose the belt to somebody or not.
And they're telling him, you're going to lose it to Shawn Michaels at this upcoming event.
Brett has a meeting with Shawn to meet about this and says, look, I'll put him over somewhere, but I also think he should do a rub for me somewhere along the line, like either before or after.
And Shawn says, unequivocally, under no terms, I will lay down for you.
I will not lose to Bret Hart.
Yeah.
Now, because he knows he's got the leverage.
There's baggage.
And also Sean knows, well, if this guy's out, I'm here.
Yeah.
I can say no.
And they're not going to like push me on anything because I'm going to be one of the guys who's sticking around.
They have to.
So he has the leverage, right?
Yeah.
So they sit back, what are we going to do?
And Bret Hart says, listen, I will lose to any other guy.
But now you're asking me to go to my home country of Canada, which is another thing.
It's like, well, it's not his hometown, but he's saying in all of the country of Canada, I'm a hero.
Right.
And I can't lose there to this guy.
Yeah.
They go back and forth, this and that.
And he's holding on to this idea that he has creative control.
He should be given the opportunity to keep the belt.
So finally, they make this decision.
Okay, you'll lose to Sean and a disqualification because when he puts you in that hold, all your guys are going to run out and beat you up.
But that doesn't mean you lose the belt.
Then you'll drop the belt to somebody else on a different show.
Okay.
They didn't want that to happen because the next night they were worried that the guy who owned WCW would go on TV and say, we signed their world champion.
He's coming to us soon.
Right.
Right.
including the referee, obviously, that they would screw him out of the title in this moment.
And when he thought it was just a hold that he was being put in, they would ring the bell and they would say, oh, he gave up in that moment.
So the ringing of the bell, is that a time thing or is that just... That just means the match is over, right?
That's the signal that the match is over, which the referee signal, ring the bell, ring the bell, because he knew the deal.
Yeah.
And apparently that ref then ran out of the ring into a waiting car that was on and left the arena in a speeding car.
For his personal safety?
Correct.
He thought, Bret Hart's going to kill me if he does.
So that...
So I was kind of right.
Yes.
And, and when Michaels was leaving the ring, he really needed to get out of there.
He did.
Although it has come, it was, he was acting in that scene as though he was pissed too, right?
Like he's saying, what the fuck?
Why, why are you?
And they're, they're like whispering to him, just hold your arms up, hold up the belt.
And he's got a frustrated look on his face.
Well, he was in on it.
He knew they were going to screw Bret Hart.
Oh, so he was acting in that moment that he didn't realize that this was going to go down like this.
Correct.
Correct.
And so no one knew that he knew until later?
For years later, yes.
Because then there's footage in this documentary film of Bret Hart saying in the locker room, Sean, did you know about that?
And he's going, God is my witness.
I had no fucking idea.
Then Bret Hart proceeds to get changed.
Vince McMahon comes into the locker room and Bret says, I'm going to shower.
If you're here when I come out, I'm going to knock you the fuck out.
After he spit in his face.
So he goes to shower.
He comes out.
Vince is there.
Bret Hart proceeds to knock him the fuck out.
Legit.
Punches Vince McMahon in the face.
Cold cocks him.
Knocks him unconscious.
That was the end of his tenure with WWF was punching his father figure dad.
Yeah.
Knocking him out cold.
Yeah.
He had his Vince's son jumped on Brett's back.
And I believe then they stepped on Vince's ankle, injured his ankle doing that as well.
And that was the end of his his time in WWF.
Vince then used that all of this kind of non-intentionally.
to become the number one heel in the company.
And he went on TV and gave an interview saying, Brett screwed Brett.
This was his fault because he didn't do the time-honored tradition of losing when you're leaving a company.
He was too arrogant.
He thought he should keep the belt and whatnot.
So that's heel talk.
Yeah.
well but yes but the hilarious thing about that is vince thought he was justified being honest yes instead the crowd was like fuck you you you are a scumbag you screwed this guy who is so loyal to you he signed with you for 20 years right right like what a heel you are and that turned into vince being the heel boss and steve austin
being the hero who hated his boss and beat the shit out of him every single week on television.
And it turned into their greatest financial period in their history.
Well, isn't that interesting?
Because there's some sort of weird Faustian bargain there.
Totally.
In that...
You know, because initially, you know, Vince just wanted out.
He saw his window, did what he thought he had to do that was legit on the level, you know, but, you know, Hart pushed back on it.
And then he did it anyways.
And then, you know, what's interesting is, like, why did he stay in the fucking locker room?
why did who vince to get his ass kicked basically like i think he he he thought like this'll if i get it'll balance it out yes exactly this is a karmic balance right and i'll take the hit yeah and then like and then he's stuck so that's like he got off the hook for the million for the 20-year deal but now he's got to be the ceo and douchebag yes for the rest of his life yes and
And winds up actually making that worth more to him than anything he'd ever done in his career before that.
Does he claim that he did it on purpose?
What, be the heel?
Yeah.
I think he acknowledges that it happened with an evolution.
Right.
But if you go back and watch the shows immediately after that incident, like in the next two months or so, he's so clearly trying to be a good guy to the fans.
Yeah.
We're WWF and we're here for you and we're going to be around.
And they hate him?
Oh, booing the shit out of him.
Yeah, yeah.
They're getting to the point where they're doing stuff with Vince only on tape because they know that if he shows his face in the building, he's going to get booed.
But he's picking up viewers.
Well, then once Steve Austin comes around and that's the point where Vince goes...
Oh, I could be like, we could basically do the Bret Hart Vince thing, but with Steve Austin in the Bret Hart role.
Right.
But as a, as a, as part of the story, this guy hates me and I don't want him to be champion.
Yeah.
And that's how they kept making the story go forward.
Right.
Every time Steve Austin would go to win the title or would win the title, Vince would be trying to stop him.
Right.
And that became the story.
Wow.
Wow.
See, it's when we have these conversations and, you know, I can see the depth of which, you know, the story story, but the backstory and the whole world of it, like it's just all encompassing.
That's right.
And it also, it does, to a certain extent, it makes people like obsessed because, and I'm sure at one point in my life I was the same way because you're like, what is real and what isn't?
Like this was debated at the time for years that, oh, they all arranged this together.
Bret Hart doesn't hate Vince McMahon.
This was a work, the whole thing.
It was just a way to make a publicity around this.
And like, no, Bret Hart, it fucking ruined his life.
Like he was, he never recovered from this really, like personally.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
So he did hate Vince McMahon forever.
For a long time.
How was his success at WCW?
Terrible.
I mean, they paid him very well and he didn't deny that, but they, as everyone predicted, they did not know how to use him.
They didn't know the certain type of style that he had needed to be presented in a way that didn't make him boring.
And he went over there and he was just a boring guy.
Like there was nothing that lit the world on fire of
right and he just kind of played out the string there and wound up getting a concussion in a match and it ended his career like it was like one of those like freak things took a kick to the head and he could no longer function uh it later turned into a stroke and he basically retired never you know never got back in the ring how did how did canada feel about him ultimately
still a hero yeah yeah like like uh you know he still you know gets a hero's welcome anywhere in canada yeah and uh you know is uh is is a well-regarded guy he ultimately did reconcile with vince uh and they i think largely about um burnishing his legacy like they started to make dvds when dvds were a big sell-through uh property and cut them in
Yeah, they were like, we want to do one on your career.
Like, can we do one like that?
They ultimately did one that was a sit down between him and Shawn Michaels with the guy you hear on commentary on that event, Jim Ross, like moderating, like, tell your size.
Does he talk with the same excitement when he's just doing an interview?
Oh, my God, you're holding a microphone.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I mean, it is, again, like I said, it is one of the, I would say, top three most famous things to ever happen in wrestling.
Well, actually, given all the sort of exposure you've given me and the backstory and meeting wrestlers and everything else, that particular fight, just as me being me, someone who, you know, is neither here nor there with it, that was interesting to me.
Yeah.
You know, that fight for some reason, like this is something different.
And now this whole backstory, I'm like, all right, maybe I'm going to.
It's this never-ending thing of like, am I going to make the time for it?
Did you listen to that thing I did with Jericho?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
That was great.
You on Jericho's podcast?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I thought that was great.
Oh, good, good, good.
Was he happy about it?
I guess.
Yeah.
I mean, he texted me after he talked to you, said that he had a great time.
Oh, good, good.
uh yeah no that was great and yeah i mean like i i was thinking about like what's a good thing to tell mark about and then i was wondering you know in in terms of you know showing you something and having you kind of learn about it and i was wondering it's like does anything like that ever happen in comedy like a total like double cross backstab like well there's one there's one story that i always liked uh and uh
You know, the story with Jon Stewart and Alan King.
Wait, I don't know this.
Oh, it's pretty great.
But it's pretty classic.
And it is exactly that.
Like, you know, Stewart was just the way I got the story.
And I don't know if Jon told me when, you know, he would talk to me or I got it secondhand.
But it seems pretty real.
So Jon was starting out and he had a gig opening for Alan King somewhere.
and uh you know and alan you know introduces himself they talk before the show and alan's like listen you new guys i know you say what you want to say and i just want you to know it's okay with me you say whatever you want use whatever language you want you know because i know that's the way you know you guys do it and i respect for that whatever and john's like oh thanks i appreciate it right so john goes out there he's like fucking this fucking that right and he's just doing his act and he brings alan king up and right out of the gate like these kids with the fucking this fucking that
Oh, man.
I mean, I bet that's super common.
Just like a headliner or whatever set somebody up to fail.
The other one was like I was just talking about the other night, and I don't know because I'm paranoid anyways, but there's this guy who's like a wrestler kind of, and I don't know him that well, but his name's Aaron Berg, and he's Canadian.
Mm-hmm.
And he's this little burly guy.
You know, I don't I can't say that I know him, but I just make assumptions of him, you know, because he was one of these guys.
It was like he's going to push the envelope.
And, you know, he was like just a manic little muscly fuck.
And and I don't know him.
And I only met him once.
And it was in Canada.
I was brought up to Canada by Mark Breslin, who runs the Yuck Yucks.
and I was headlining in Toronto, and I can't even remember how long ago this was.
It might have been before we started the podcast, maybe not, but it was a long time ago.
And I was still nervous about doing Canada, and I'm still who I am, and I do a certain type of comedy.
Breslin says, I'm going to have this guy Aaron do a guest spot.
You'll like him.
And this guy Aaron is supposed to do a 10-minute guest spot.
And he does like 25 minutes.
And by the end of it, there's like four cocks.
There's like a crack pipe.
And it was just...
It was anything I was doing at that time, stylistically, times 20.
And he was manic.
And it was a mixture of Rick Shapiro and Doug Stanhope.
And he just wouldn't get off stage.
And it just leveled the room.
And then they brought me up.
And it just made it tremendously difficult.
And to this day, I'm like, why would Breslin do that?
Why would he set me up like that to prove what?
That a Canadian monkey...
Could fucking, you know, give me a run for the money because I couldn't separate it from being set up as opposed to sort of like, you know, you'll like this guy.
You know what?
I thought he was fucking me.
Right.
I don't know to this day.
I imagine it wasn't that loaded, but I still don't like Aaron Berg.
So, Chris, were you watching in real time when the Montreal Screwjob happened?
Like, was that something that you experienced?
Not live.
I rarely ever watched pay-per-views live.
I would go over to my friend's house.
But, like, this was a weird time for me.
Like, 97, you know, had my first girlfriend, starting to have a falling out with my buddy who I would watch wrestling with.
But I was aware that this happened.
Did you watch it live?
No.
I did not, actually.
I was not able to.
I was in college.
It was one of those things where, like, at that time, I was usually watching pay-per-views, like, on tape after the fact.
But that night, I definitely found out what happened, like, just being on the internet.
And it was not clear to me what really happened.
And...
I was never one of these people that thought it was a work or that thought that Bret Hart was in on it or anything like that, but I just did not have the full details.
But thankfully, that Wrestling with Shadows documentary came out a year later, and it was very clear what happened.
Dave Meltzer also was exhaustive in his reporting on it.
There's really – if you wanted to believe the truth at the time, there were plenty of ways to believe – to know the truth and believe it.
I think a lot of people just like the mystery of it and were like, well, really?
Do we really know what happened?
And do we – you know, like –
Because it's wrestling.
Everything in wrestling is fake and is covered in deceit.
So, yeah, it didn't have the lure for me that it did for some people who were guessing about it.
I basically accepted it at face value from the start.
But, yeah, at the time, I was on the verge of being like, I think I should pull the plug on this.
This is not...
It's not a cool way to treat your longtime loyal worker.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, it's funny.
In retrospect, I mean, I think I know of and I've seen so much of the Montreal Screwjob.
It's probably like the thing I know or have watched the most on.
Like the Montreal Screwjob saga is like the JFK assassination with the A&E documentary.
For real.
Yeah.
For wrestling fans, that is it.
It is their biggest conspiracy theory obsessive talking point.
Yeah.
And the A&E doc of Wrestling With Shadows, that's just like Jack Ruby shooting Lee Harvey Oswald.
Yes.
I can't believe it's on camera.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's just astonishing that they had a documentary crew come with him the entire time.
And it's so funny, looking back on it, that Bret Hart took this wrestling so seriously.
Like this heavyweight championship belt is, like I've said previously, it's just a MacGuffin.
It's not something you actually win.
It's something that someone decides, hey...
You're going to make the most money for us.
Let's put the belt on you.
But he took it so seriously.
It's so funny.
That's definitely his fatal flaw.
But at the same time, when you read everything about it, I do have sympathy for him in that...
you know, he was dealing with a guy who had personally disrespected him, got him in trouble in his home life, you know, basically was, was a, uh, a menace backstage was a drug and alcohol addict and was, you know, just the fact that he was, um, so disrespectful to Brett and then said, I will not lose to you under no circumstances.
Like, uh,
It's very hard to see a situation where you, like, overcome that.
And, I mean, like, the ultimate thing is if Brad had just sucked it up and gone and taken the money from WCW and lost at Survivor Series and not cared, none of that would have ever happened.
But he couldn't bring himself to let this guy do it.
And it's a real ethical conundrum, right?
Like...
The right thing to do probably was that, but you also don't want to betray your soul and your sense of self.
Right, right.
And so you're the person to ask questions to.
So did Alondra Blaze, who we mentioned in last week's episode, is, you know, when she was wrestling before the Undertaker versus Undertaker match.
Medusa, yeah.
Like, is she kind of the reason why Vince screwed Brett?
Because she went to- One million percent.
Yeah, yeah.
In the sense, I mean, I think even without her doing that, there's probably other things that could have made Vince paranoid.
But if anybody doesn't know what I'm talking about, WCW hired this woman, Medusa Maselli, but...
you know, known in WWF as Alundra Blaze.
And she was their women's champion at the time.
Now they hired her away from WWF and WWF was getting rid of the women's championship.
They were like going to phase it out.
So it wasn't even something that was on their front burner.
And in being that,
They WCW jumped at getting this person who was on WWF TV to look like they jumped to WCW and on TV had her take the women's world championship and throw it in the trash.
Right.
Well, that to Vince was like, if that happens with our world title.
Right.
Shut down the company.
We're done.
Right.
So.
wouldn't Bret Hart know this?
Like, wouldn't they just have a conversation like, hey, if you're going to WCW, I obviously can't have you be the world champ and put that, you know, put the belt in the trash, so you have to lose this belt.
Like,
Well, so so here's the thing about that.
So there were there were shows before Survivor Series where he said, I'll lose at those like like house shows or whatever.
And and Vince said, no, I can't bait and switch the pay-per-view, meaning I've advertised a world title match on the pay-per-view.
I can't then tell those fans now you're not getting a world title match because Brett just lost the title.
Then Brett was saying, well, I promise you, I will break my contract with WCW if they go on TV and say anything about me the next night.
You're not going to have to worry about that.
And Vince was like, I can trust Brett Hart, but I can't trust Eric Bischoff.
He felt like he did not trust the guy.
So it is one of these things where I do see everyone's point.
Right.
But in the end, what Vince did was unethical.
What Brett did was almost too egotistical.
But at the same time, they were both making their own cases.
Like if you forced me to come down on a side, I come down on Brett's side in the sense that like –
I don't think it's right to lie to an employee and and publicly humiliate them the way that he that ultimately he was.
So so there's that.
But at the same time, it is very nuanced.
Was this the first time Vince was playing owner on TV?
Because he's just out there and the audience wasn't yet privy in storyline of him being the owner.
Yeah, and it wasn't overt, but they were starting to make little allusions to it.
So, yes, it wasn't totally out of nowhere that Vince was out there.
But it was weird that if you were watching at home, he ultimately didn't play any role in being out there other than walking around.
And then all of a sudden, Bret Hart's hocking a loogie on him.
Right.
It seemed weird if you were just a fan who had no idea of what was going on behind the scenes.
Yeah.
For me, it sort of broke the fourth wall.
It was the moment where I was like, oh, wait a second.
This guy is actually in charge of everything.
And he's just been the commentator this entire time.
It was, it was, and there was no going back after that.
Like, and to which you, you know, you were telling Mark, like this was, this led to the best villain in wrestling history, you know?
and a financial boom so like yeah vince vince as always wound up parlaying his scumbaggery into you know a gold mine for himself which is uh it's very vince um if uh if you're listening to this and you never saw what we're talking about it is on peacock as part of wwf survivor series it is um the 1997 edition and you just watch the very final five minutes to see
what it is we've been talking about here.
Also, the Montreal Screwjob documentary, Wrestling with Shadows.
Really, it's a documentary about Bret Hart, and it happens to be that this was the last half hour of that film.
They just re-released it this year on Blu-ray with a commentary track by Bret Hart and Dave Meltzer.
I haven't had a chance to see it yet, and I will.
So if anybody else has seen it and wants to let us know what they talk about in there, please let us know in the comments section.
Okay, so on to the best thing we saw in wrestling this week.
And now, you should know something about me and Chris doing this show.
We don't talk about this ahead of time.
We want to kind of surprise each other with what our best thing in wrestling is.
And we really don't talk about what we're going to do on the show other than topic-wise.
Hey, we'll talk about The Fugitive a little bit.
We'll talk about the Montreal Screwjob.
Okay, got it.
We don't want to burn our ideas talking to each other.
And this week we both said, oh, we've got to talk about this one thing.
And I said, well, yeah, I'm going to talk about it.
But here's the thing.
It's my best thing in wrestling this week.
Shirt brother.
Chris, your response is that I was your shirt brother and that you had it as your best thing in wrestling this week, too, which is important for us to note because it's not actually something that was produced by any wrestling company.
No.
No.
But the best thing in wrestling that I saw this past week was the Alabama waterfront brawl.
And if you don't know what I'm talking about, just Google those three words.
It also means you have not been on social media for a week and God bless you.
But the reality is this was basically wrestling at its core, at its most fundamental.
The Alabama Waterfront Brawl was professional wrestling.
And I'm interested for you, Chris, why it to you was your best thing in wrestling you saw this week.
Oh, my God.
Well, first of all, the version that I saw initially of the brawl had a shit ton of wrestling commentary and music.
There was someone doing commentary.
I want to say his name.
I don't.
It's like Mike or Mick Tyson.
Big Corey.
Mick Tyson.
Yeah.
Big Corey.
Oh, oh.
So I watched his commentary and there were Nation of Domination references, Survivor and Royal Rumble callouts, Ultimate Warrior and Stone Cold Steve Austin music.
The person doing commentary, you are just fantastic.
I need you to do commentary on more stuff.
I'm following them on Twitter now.
I love him.
He is just fantastic.
But what it is is just a bunch of white people on a dock in Alabama, and they're jumping a black person.
And then heroic black people who jumped and swam to save this person.
And it's quite literally as good as the fugitive train scene, and it is horrible.
Most definitely the best thing I saw this week.
Well, here's the thing.
All that, everything you said is true.
And I also did wind up seeing that same thing, a guy named Corey, who did the commentary over this.
And it is hilarious.
And he definitely made a lot of allusions to wrestling.
But I think it's more than those surface level connections with wrestling.
Sure.
I think it explains wrestling.
Tell me more.
And here's why.
Because, okay, what happened in this... Let me start it by saying this.
The first thing I saw about this waterfront brawl was somebody clipped out a video, and it was like the part where everyone is brawling right in front of the big boat, the riverboat, and it just looks terrible, like a terrible brawl, and...
Every now and then you see this kind of stuff on social media where people are like luxuriating and terrible violence.
And I fucking hate it.
Like the worst of humanity getting summed up and like, you know, then then it gets put on Fox News.
And it's I had no patience for this scrolling past.
Right.
What just look like a terrible brawl to me.
And I want to know part of it.
Then I saw somebody put up a video that was just the first five minutes before any punch was thrown.
And you see everything that happens with these boats.
And what happened was this riverboat was trying to dock.
It could not for like multiple minutes.
It was trying to dock.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And this crew member on the riverboat takes a small vessel to the dock and is trying.
Apparently they had told these white people that were in these pontoons that they had to move the boats and the white people were just ignoring them.
Now they're drunk.
They look all sunburned.
They've been out for the day on the water.
These are people who are not going to be agreeable.
Forget about the racial dynamics in Alabama.
They were not going to be agreeable probably to anyone.
But then this black crew member goes over there and he's trying to move the boat himself.
And that is apparently what starts the ruckus.
And you're watching this guy and he's like defending himself.
But he's clearly just pointing to the boats, telling them to move them.
Never once do you watch this guy posture in any way that he's threatening to these people.
Like he is one million percent in the right.
Just trying to do his job.
Just trying to do his job.
That's right.
You know.
Just trying to do his job.
So if you're watching this, I don't care what color you are, unless you're a stone cold racist, you're like, well, this guy's right.
And these people are already wrong.
Yes.
Right.
Before a single punch is thrown.
Then some fucking dude is.
And runs from the pontoon and sucker punches this guy, this crew member.
And then multiple other dudes who were with that guy come and jump the crew guy as well to the point where you can count heads.
It's six on one, whether they're all six thrown punches at the guy or not.
It's six on one.
And at that point, you start to see a black dude come down the ramp.
You start to see the guy jump in the water and swim after him.
And somehow, it gets evened up.
There are at least six black dudes suddenly on that pier.
And I thought to myself, this is what War Games is.
The whole premise...
of war games is that the baby faces are at a disadvantage until the time interval ends.
And then when they have the, the even odds, the baby faces can win.
And that is wrestling in a nutshell because the whole idea is like people have been watching fights since the moment you could clench a fist, right?
Since the moment evolution occurred where you could make a fist and punch a person and
Everyone wanted to watch that.
Right.
And that's a human impulse.
It's not going to go away.
And one of the things that happened was like combat sports were invented because people like to watch that.
Right.
Goes back to primitive cultures.
They were doing that.
And then in modern culture, we had sports around combat, boxing and martial arts, all of that kind of stuff somewhere along the line.
Somebody figured out if we manipulate these combats, we can make it so people are watching and paying us money because their emotions get invested in this.
It's not just a random thing where a guy fights another guy.
It has to have an emotional reason behind it.
Well, you watch this video of these white guys in Alabama.
Yeah.
jump a black guy who's just doing his job you know who the good guy and who the bad guys are totally right away and you also know that with this guy being outnumbered well he's in trouble yeah but as soon as the odds are even
the bad guys flee yes they run away and you know what happens when they run away they still get their asses beat yes and that is what would happen if bobby the brain heenan started running up the aisle because all of his cheating backfired then some guy would grab him and throw him back in and hulk hogan would kick his ass that's
That is the core of wrestling.
The core of wrestling is when it's an unfair fight, the bad guys win because they're bad.
But when the fight is even, the good guys win because they're good.
And I have never...
seen something so clearly represented in the wild as this, where you're like, well, I am pissed right now because I'm watching bad guys be bad, and they are outnumbering this dude and winning, and wait a minute, oh, hang on, the fight is now even?
Game on, good guys win, right?
Like...
so clear that this was wrestling and uh yeah maybe it's not great that the guy hit a woman over the head with a folding chair but you know guess what lady you're gonna have to take that hit based on the centuries of uh racial violence and oppression in alabama that's a shot you were gonna have to take and also right it wasn't like she wasn't taking her own shots like she was she's not an innocent person yeah yeah she was she was throwing fish she was fighting yeah but as that guy quoted
As I got Corey said on that video you were talking about, the guy swimming in the chair took two inches off her height.
Anyway.
Perfect.
If you don't like any kind of violence whatsoever, I am not going to tell you you have to watch this Alabama waterfront brawl.
It is not a sterling hallmark of humanity.
But was justice done in that situation?
I think it was.
And was it justice done in the same way why we watch this thing week to week and go like, man, I just want these babyfaces to overcome these heels.
I want the elite to beat the BBC.
Like...
Same thing is going on here.
If you have anything else out there that was interesting to you this week, or if you have any questions you want us to get to, we'll do a mailbag episode in the future again.
That comment link is in the episode description.
Just scroll to it on whatever you're listening to right now and give us a click.
And until we talk next time, I'm Brendan, and that is Chris.
Peace!