BONUS Marc on Movies - Changing Lanes
Marc:Yeah, I took Robitussin for the congestion in my chest and the coughs, and I took Sudafed for my head, so I'm fucking... I'm ready to go.
Marc:Loopy-doopy.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, like, I think one more pill would be a relapse.
Guest:Well, that's appropriate for this movie.
Marc:I watched it twice, back-to-back.
Marc:You watched Changing Lanes twice, back-to-back.
Marc:Right, I watched it, and I watch this movie fairly often.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And because it resonates with me.
Marc:But I don't think it's just because of the sobriety element.
Marc:But I watched it recently, and then I watched it again, like pretty much a day later maybe.
Marc:And it more was revealed, really.
Marc:I think more sort of not mistakes, but I could see things where they made choices that were different than what was scripted.
Guest:Oh, interesting.
Guest:You were more watching it for the construction of the film the second time.
Marc:Kind of.
Marc:I mean, because, you know, you cut things because you just want, there's scenes where they were clearly longer scenes.
Marc:And then there's also, you know, the dinner date gets, you know, early in the movie, Amanda Peet says, we're going to have dinner with this other couple.
Marc:And then they end up having dinner with the parents.
Marc:So I don't know what, you know, what happened there.
Guest:Yeah, well, it's funny.
Guest:We just I was just talking with Chris about The Fugitive.
Guest:We had its 30th anniversary and there's a big piece on it in Rolling Stone.
Guest:And like apparently the first cut of that movie was four hours long.
Guest:And so, you know, you're cutting two hours plus out as you get it ready to actually, you know, turn it into a theatrical release.
Guest:And that's a lot of stuff to double the movie.
Guest:So, you know, decisions have to get made.
Marc:Yeah, and what was that?
Marc:What were we just going to watch?
Marc:It's like three and a half hours.
Marc:I can't remember if I was going to watch something, but it was definitely a time investment, and Kit hadn't seen it.
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:But Changing Lanes holds up for me because I think mostly...
Marc:the acting.
Marc:And, well, I like the story, but these characters, not unlike Michael Clayton for me, these are grown-up characters, both with sort of unique character struggles that are almost opposite.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Like, Affleck is, you know, was a good guy, and now he's trying to commit to being a kind of soulless fuck, whereas Samuel L. Jackson was a drunk monster, and he's trying to be a good guy.
Marc:Yeah, that's interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also, I always can never understand why it wasn't more popular because I don't think it was.
Marc:Well, it's not accurate to say it wasn't popular.
Guest:It made a lot of money.
Guest:It actually was a box office hit.
Guest:Oh, I didn't realize that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that to me was kind of crazy rewatching it because, man, not only would this movie not be a hit today, it wouldn't get made today.
Guest:It probably wouldn't even get made as a streaming only movie.
Guest:It is so niche in the type of entertainment that is accepted today.
Marc:Is it though?
Marc:It's sort of a it's kind of got a not a thriller, but I don't know what we'd call it.
Marc:It's sort of it's not action.
Marc:But, you know, there is a conflict there that is pretty juicy.
Guest:It is a 100% mainstream movie that anybody can watch, anybody can access, and no one will make this.
Guest:None.
Guest:There is no market for this anymore.
Guest:Gone.
Guest:Yeah, completely gone.
Guest:Name the last movie that's like this.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Really?
Marc:Why do you...
Marc:Where it's just, you know, a reality-based kind of, like, tension drama.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, like, think about, this goes to the core of something you talk about all the time, about, like, adult movies.
Guest:And I don't mean, like, X-rated movies.
Guest:I mean, movies for grown-ups.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And how hard it is to find them.
Guest:And, you know, usually they're, like, indie films or whatever.
Guest:But, no, this is a major studio film.
Guest:And it had got a major release.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It made double its budget.
Guest:And so it was a success theatrically alone, let alone DVD and whatever cable money that it made, TV money it made.
Guest:And so this used to be part of the movie ecosystem.
Guest:And it's just not anymore.
Guest:It was absorbed by TV and streaming.
Guest:And then now that's being surrendered because of the problems with streaming.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Now, what kind of movie would you call this?
Guest:Well, that's funny that you say that because it's listed as a thriller, which it kind of is, I guess.
Guest:But I don't know.
Guest:I would say that in the broadest category, this is just a drama, right?
Guest:Like there used to be, when you used to go to the video store, there was a category that said drama and you'd find stuff like the big chill in there or something like that, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think this is a drama, but it's interesting to me that you called it, you texted me, said, I'm going to watch a sober movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's what this is.
Guest:And there is a genre of that.
Guest:Movies about sobriety, about addiction.
Marc:I talked about that a little on the intro the other day.
Marc:There are, you know, there's the Bill W. movie with James Woods.
Marc:which was a TV movie that some sober people like for the history of AA.
Marc:There's Clean and Sober with Michael Keaton, which has a disturbing opening scene where he wakes up next to a dead woman after partying all night.
Marc:I just remember there, like, a fly on her butt, and he realized that she was dead.
Marc:And that's really kind of like a meeting movie.
Marc:And then there are the classics, you know, Lost Weekend, which is insane.
Marc:And I think probably the most message-driven sober movie is Days of Wine and Roses.
Marc:That thing is incredible.
Marc:And that's like early AA shit.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:That's Klugman and Jack Lemmon.
Marc:And Jack Lemmon finally figures it out and gets sober, and Lee Remick doesn't.
Marc:And it's devastating.
Marc:But this movie, I think, is a sober movie because...
Marc:It is such a heightened portrayal of the struggle to not just not drink, but to behave in a sober way.
Marc:And that is Samuel L. Jackson's sort of journey as a character here.
Marc:He's a guy who is way in the doghouse.
Marc:His wife can't take his abusive and erratic behavior, his drinking, his anger, and is going to take the kids to Portland, Oregon and...
Marc:And he's trying to hold on.
Marc:And he buys a house, a shitty house with the hope that she'll stay even with or without him to keep the kids around.
Marc:So he's really trying to do everything he can physically or to control the situation.
Marc:But the arc of the movie...
Marc:And it's sort of an amazing thing.
Marc:The acting that both these guys do, I don't think I've seen Ben Affleck act better than this.
Marc:Maybe I'm not remembering, but the nuance of the emotions, and he's not quite as good as Samuel L. Jackson, but every time I watch movies like this, I think about our Ethan Hawke episode and how he watched Denzel Washington movies to train for training day.
Marc:Like he looked at them like game films.
Marc:Because, you know, because Samuel L. Jackson is just an acting animal, you know, and Affleck really had to hold his own in this thing, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he is able to do it in a way that's not, he's not trying to out Sam Jackson, Sam Jackson.
Guest:No.
Marc:He's playing it differently.
Marc:He leans into his vulnerability.
Marc:It's kind of crazy.
Marc:You know, because he knows his range.
Marc:You know, he's not doing some, you know, character that you don't recognize, where Samuel can really inhabit a character.
Marc:But most of what you're seeing with Affleck is this ongoing struggle with his personal—his moral—it's a moral struggle, right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And with—
Marc:with samuel l jackson because of his sobriety he knows exactly what he has to do but he but they're both these characters change dramatically like if if what you're supposed to see in the arc of a movie is do the characters change and they both really do i mean that scene where jackson finally brings back that folder when it doesn't matter anymore is is fucking amazing
Marc:It's amazing.
Guest:Well, for people who haven't seen the movie, why don't you give a little plot summary?
Guest:What goes on?
Marc:Okay, so we open this film with Samuel L. Jackson is trying to get to the courthouse because it's a family court because he's trying to...
Marc:go to a hearing with his wife and his kids to sort of show that he's turned a corner and he's bought a house and he can provide and he wants to have joint custody with the kids.
Marc:And the wife is pushing back on this.
Marc:So he's making his Hail Mary pass with this house.
Marc:So he's driving to the courthouse and he gets into this fender bender with this guy who's also on the way to the courthouse.
Marc:This is Ben Affleck's character, but he's delivering the paperwork that is going to move
Marc:What is it?
Marc:The charitable trust.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Of their client.
Marc:Of a multimillionaire, of their client into the control of the partners of the law firm.
Marc:And what you learned very quickly is that Ben Affleck had a relationship with this guy's granddaughter, the billionaire.
Marc:As a friend, lifelong friend.
Guest:Not a romantic relationship.
Guest:Like this is a kid he used to play with as a child.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So and he's trying to become part.
Marc:He's married into this law firm.
Marc:He's married to the daughter of one of the partners, Amanda Peet.
Marc:Sidney Pollack is her dad.
Marc:Sidney Pollack playing a morally compromised lawyer is probably the best Sidney Pollack.
Marc:Like this could be the same guy from Michael Clayton.
Guest:Oh man, this movie has so many tells for you.
Guest:Like, like, you know, you like see a person and you're like, oh, that's my friend's type.
Guest:Like if this movie, like if you just saw any five minutes of this movie, you'd be like, oh, that's Mark's type.
Guest:This movie, it's in New York.
Guest:It's morally compromised people.
Guest:It's Sidney Pollack playing a shitty boss.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So they get into this accident and Affleck just treats this guy like a schlub.
Marc:Like he needs to get to the courthouse and deliver this.
Marc:What is it called?
Marc:A power of attorney?
Guest:Not a power of attorney.
Guest:It's a power of appointment.
Guest:Yeah, a power of appointment.
Guest:Which is to say that this is a legal document that this dying guy signed to say that these people can have control of the charity, of the charitable trust.
Marc:But what you learn is that there's a good chance that Ben Affleck, you know, as the lawyer representing this guy, that he probably got the gig because of his granddaughter, who Ben knew.
Marc:But, you know, right at the beginning, you realize that the granddaughter no longer trusts him, that he might have cajoled the signature out of a guy that had no idea what he was signing.
Marc:Well, that's the back story.
Guest:And now he starts to believe that he's been kept in the dark on things.
Marc:Well, yeah, but you don't learn that till later.
Marc:So they have the accident.
Marc:And he says to Samuel Jackson, let me just give you a check.
Marc:I got to get to the courthouse.
Marc:And Samuel Jackson's like, no, I got to do this right.
Marc:Because it's established early on, he's trying to be sober.
Marc:He's like, give me your insurance card.
Marc:And Ben's like, I can't, man.
Marc:Take the check.
Marc:And he's trying to write him a check.
Marc:And then Ben just takes off and says, better luck next time.
Marc:Doesn't give the guy a run.
Marc:He gives him a blank check.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Doesn't give a fuck.
Marc:And and so Samuel Jackson's wait for his hearing.
Marc:He blows it.
Marc:The judge dismisses him.
Marc:The wife is pissed.
Marc:This is something that happens with this guy.
Marc:He doesn't get joint custody.
Marc:And and Ben Affleck gets to the courthouse and he doesn't have.
Marc:the power of appointment because he used it to write his check on as a table.
Marc:And Samuel Jackson's got it or threw it away.
Marc:He got the whole folder.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So he needs this.
Marc:So now this thing is lost.
Marc:And now it's just really, it's all about Ben Affleck trying to get hold of...
Marc:Samuel Jackson, he sees him walking down the street.
Marc:He's like, do you have the folder?
Marc:And Samuel Jackson's like, I need my 20 minutes back because I lost my family.
Marc:And then it just becomes this thing between these two guys.
Marc:Once Samuel Jackson realizes the folder is worth something, this guy, he goes back and gets it out of the garbage and basically holds it ransom.
Guest:Well, yeah, but without a ransom, it's almost like he holds it as a fuck you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like he doesn't say I need anything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And what you do find out in that scene in the probate court with, you know, that Affleck shows up at without that sheet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:they could, the law firm could get sued for fraud.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he's on the hook and could potentially face jail time.
Guest:Like they, I don't technically know how that works in the legal system, but they established that very quickly that the stakes here are, he needs this piece of paper, the original, not a copy by the end of the day, or he faces jail time.
Marc:And then you find out like, you know, Tony Collette plays a lawyer in the firm, not a partner, right?
Marc:So once Ben Affleck,
Marc:He lies to Pollock and Jenkins, right?
Marc:Richard Jenkins is the other partner.
Marc:And he's great.
Marc:Has so few lines, but it's so perfect.
Marc:These guys are the corporate partners.
Marc:And he lies to them.
Marc:And Tony Coet plays a woman he had an affair with in the office and sort of his confidant.
Marc:And he slowly starts to realize that he's been sort of set up.
Marc:That, you know, he doesn't know the backstory of why they want this estate.
Marc:And he's been given this case and he's been made a partner because he delivered the goods, but he really didn't.
Marc:And, you know, his father-in-law, Pollack, says he's going to give him his boat.
Marc:And so Affleck's sitting on this reality that he didn't deliver the folder.
Marc:He has no idea where it is because Samuel Jackson took it.
Marc:But...
Marc:Through the course of this early part of the movie, you find out that they kind of set him up.
Marc:He's holding the bag on this thing either way.
Marc:Like they're using Affleck to protect the fact that they're, you know, taking money out of the charitable trust.
Marc:It's layered.
Marc:And I think that's another reason why I like it.
Marc:The characters are layered.
Marc:The plot is layered.
Marc:And, you know, you find out all these things about the moral compromise that Ben Affleck starts to realize more and more of what he is and what he's doing.
Marc:But he is a guy with a heart, you know, supposedly.
Guest:Yeah, well, and then there's that scene where he's encouraged to try to use a fixer.
Guest:There's another thing on the Mark bingo card checklist.
Guest:It's like, oh, there's a corporate fixer involved.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This guy is like a scummy, you know, hacker played by Dylan Baker.
Marc:Great.
Marc:He's great in it.
Marc:And they just erase.
Marc:He goes in because Tony Coet tells him that there's a guy that, you know, does a thing.
Marc:You know, it's one of those things like, what do you mean, kill him or what's going on?
Marc:No, but he's a guy you use when you got to do dirty work.
Marc:So this guy hacks into Samuel L. Jackson's life, bankrupts him, has no more credit.
Marc:And he's waiting on this loan from the fucking, uh,
Marc:from the bank for the house.
Marc:So like out of spite, Ben Affleck just crushes this guy to get his folder back by the end of the day.
Guest:Well, but beyond that, beyond spite, it's actually like he's kind of convinced it's the only way.
Guest:Right, it's a tactic.
Guest:Because he's sitting there and he's like, is this really the way we have to do this?
Guest:And Dylan Baker says, well, no, there's another way.
Guest:You can pick up the phone, call him and ask him nicely.
Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's when he decides like, okay, go ahead, go through this.
Guest:Cause it really is.
Guest:The whole movie is set up all the time.
Guest:It's not like the idea of changing lanes is like, that's the thing we have to do every day all the time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You have to make the decision.
Guest:Do I move over now or do I stay where I am?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And sometimes when you move over, you crash into another car.
Guest:I think it's very important that that initial crash is no one's fault.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like I watch, I watched it and then I went back and rewatched it again.
Guest:And it's like, who goes into who you never see.
Guest:It's just an accident.
Guest:It's, it's, that's right.
Guest:And it's like, this is the, these are the things that happen over the course of your life.
Guest:Certain intersections occur where, you know, all things can change from this moment on and you have to make the right decision.
Marc:Right.
Right.
Marc:Well, so this keeps getting, you know, it gets heightened and, you know, the anger gets going and, you know, William Hurt comes in and he's Samuel L. Jackson's sponsor.
Marc:And Amanda Peet, playing the daughter of the partner Cindy Pollack, tries to get her husband to realize that moral compromise and moral bankruptcy is necessary to be at the level that they want and that she wants them to be at.
Marc:And that scene is devastating.
Marc:Like, her lip is trembling.
Marc:She says she knew about the affair.
Marc:It's all crazy.
Marc:I guess these...
Marc:Wow.
Marc:That was great.
Marc:So... But, like, it just keeps building.
Marc:But for me, again, it's the characters, man.
Marc:The story is fine.
Marc:And usually with thrillers, I get annoyed.
Marc:I'm sort of like, let's get on with this.
Marc:But because the layers of character and the layers of story that are happening alongside with these two very different characters...
Marc:is just so satisfying to me.
Marc:I mean, that scene, even when fucking Samuel Jackson is struggling, he goes to a bar to drink, calls his sponsor, says he's at a bar, and Hurt says, why, it didn't go well in court, so you're angry.
Marc:And he sits at that bar looking at that bourbon.
Marc:for however long, and then you cut back to it, and he's drinking a Coke, and there are two dudes at the bar talking about their favorite advertising, their favorite commercials, and they're in advertising, and they talk about a Tiger Woods commercial, and that monologue that Jackson gives about what he thinks a Tiger Woods commercial would be, and that moment where he says, you know, guys like your dad, and like, even that was acted...
Marc:So authentically, the guy's sort of like, wait, what'd you just say about our dance?
Marc:It's like, it's so good, man.
Guest:Well, I think that's interesting, though, that your feeling is that normally with thrillers, you get irritated.
Guest:You're like, you know, when coincidences build up.
Guest:Yeah, let's get on with it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think that probably there's a reason why this movie, like I said, it was a hit at the time, but as you identify, I think what you're correct about is it doesn't seem to have much of a legacy.
Guest:People don't talk about it.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:The way that even how people are talking more and more about Michael Clayton now and recognizing that.
Guest:I did that.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You, you know, you, you are the, the, the main reason we can just declare that.
Marc:How long have I been talking about it?
Marc:Like a decade, dude.
Guest:Forever.
Guest:Forever.
Guest:Well, and actually it was one of the things that came up in your kind of rant against comic book movies.
Guest:And that was like the first time I think I ever saw it get put in print that like Michael Clayton was this counterpoint to comic book movies.
Guest:But besides that, I think a big reason why this movie, Changing Lanes, doesn't have that type of popular hook, a rewatch ability, is that I think it's like too real for some people.
Guest:in terms of the tension of like people being put in positions where they have to make a decision and then making a bad one, right?
Guest:Like that to me, watching it again, even though I knew what the ending of the movie was, I was very uncomfortable.
Guest:It does make you uncomfortable.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:And but I think that's why it's so loaded up for me is that you're invested.
Marc:And then once Samuel L. Jackson commits to, you know, his anger and and and actually possibly killing this guy, the guy and then and then Affleck.
Marc:That's another great moment, though.
Marc:Affleck, you know, then goes to the kids school.
Marc:But that moment where Affleck, after he does that, the counterpoint to him trying to kill him by taking the lug nuts, that when Affleck is looking at the wife and the kids and he has that moment, like he acts that pretty well, dude.
Marc:And that's where things sort of shift for him a little bit.
Marc:But we forgot to say that he found out also that he's been set up.
Marc:And then he found out that, you know, ultimately the partners took another signature page from something that didn't need to be delivered to the court and changed the document format.
Marc:They forged it.
Marc:They did fraud and they delivered it through Courier without him knowing it.
Marc:So his name is on this crime.
Marc:And he knows that, but he could still just live with, you know, if he wanted to, he could say like, fine, put it behind us.
Marc:That's what Pollock said.
Marc:Like, it's done, man.
Marc:It's done.
Marc:Forget about it.
Marc:We're off the hook.
Marc:And then it just starts eating at him.
Guest:Yeah, which ultimately leads to him, you know, making decisions that create amends, frankly.
Guest:I mean, that's the ending of this movie is an amends process.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:After he sees the wife and kids...
Marc:He goes to the bank and says, you know, and he called the guy who fucked up, you know, who hacked him and they were having trouble.
Marc:You know, you don't even know what happens at the bank.
Marc:And I guarantee you they shot it.
Marc:Like he's the guy because the guy who gave him the loan when he came back in to check on the loan couldn't couldn't go through with the loan because the hacker had made him bankrupt.
Marc:And and.
Marc:And Samuel L. Jackson loses his mind and breaks a guy's computer.
Marc:So that guy doesn't want anything to do with him.
Marc:But Affleck goes into the bank after he has a change of heart and says, what can I do to make this right?
Marc:And you don't see what transpires, but clearly he made it right.
Guest:Yeah, I kind of wondered if there was a sublimated 12-step structure to the whole movie.
Guest:If you sat and circled sections of the script, could you get through the entire program by going through the process in this movie?
Guest:Because it does feel very pointed that there are moments where the characters have to let go...
Guest:And they say that to each other, you know, basically Affleck and Sam Jackson, like, we got to let this go.
Guest:And then there is a process of restitution.
Guest:And as someone who's not in the program, it made me wonder, like, wow, is this like someone's basically dramatic depiction of the program in real life?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, it may be, but I mean, I don't see the arc of all the steps, but on any given day, if you're in recovery and you're aware of the steps, you kind of move through them, you know, other than, you know, certainly unmanageability, powerlessness, that's all there, you know, turning it over, but, you know, inventorying and all that stuff and, and, and, and gratitude and all that.
Marc:It's, it's kind of, maybe it's the first five steps or the first three steps.
Marc:Maybe it's the first three steps.
Marc:It kind of stays in, but yeah,
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:I just found it so satisfying that a pivotal scene is that scene where William Hurt, as Samuel L. Jackson's sponsor, bails him out of jail.
Marc:Because Jackson lost his shit at the school because Ben Affleck set him up.
Marc:And he's yelling at Hurt.
Marc:It's like, well, I didn't drink.
Marc:Isn't that what it's all about?
Marc:He's like, no.
Marc:And he says, you're not addicted to alcohol.
Marc:You're addicted to disaster.
Marc:And then like that lands, you know, like, cause that's the thing.
Marc:The thing about not drinking is one thing, but the thing about being sober is another thing.
Marc:You can not drink.
Marc:And then if you're a dry drunk, you're a fucking monster.
Marc:So, so that, you know, that moment where he hits bottom in sobriety, you know, is a powerful moment.
Marc:And that leads up to that final scene where,
Marc:Where, you know, he shows up with the folder.
Marc:And that monologue, dude, it's, like, so good.
Marc:Because Jackson's just sort of like, look, you know, I fucked up.
Marc:But, you know, she's going to take the kids.
Marc:But, you know... God, I'm getting choked up even thinking about it.
Marc:She's going to take the kids.
Marc:And I'll have a relationship with them.
Marc:Maybe in a year, three years.
Marc:I'll go to Portland.
Marc:And I'll see... Like, he does this whole thing where he finally...
Marc:accepts his powerlessness and accepts the nature of his disease and, and also accepts who he is in reality.
Marc:And that's such a powerful monologue.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the, and accepts that there are consequences to his actions that it's not, he's not a victim.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And then Affleck, that's the greatest moment where he's like, where Jackson says, what are you going to do?
Marc:He's like, well, I'm going to go to dinner with my in-laws and my wife and,
Marc:And tomorrow I'm going to go look at a boat.
Marc:And that moment where Jackson's like, you know, like, okay.
Marc:Like, we're just sort of like, we are in nowhere near the same world.
Marc:Like all the class issues, you know, race issues.
Marc:So whatever, you know, the triviality of Ben Affleck's surrender is like, it doesn't even, it just, it kind of, it comes at Sam Jackson and just falls on the floor.
Marc:It means nothing.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:You know, he's like, it was all about him, you know, coming to terms with himself, with Jackson.
Marc:But then you cut to the dinner where Affleck pulls his big move, you know?
Marc:And he's... Right.
Marc:It's like... But, you know, I have a little problem with that.
Marc:I have kind of a problem with the ending, to be honest with you.
Marc:Like as a script thing?
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:You know, because, like, if you remember the end of The Firm, you know, where...
Marc:where Tom Cruise kind of holds the corporate law firm hostage by having his brother sort of on a boat sailing around the world with all the evidence that would take down this law firm he was in.
Marc:You know, you've got Affleck who realizes that this file is now he can hold its evidence.
Marc:And if he holds on to it, he can kind of blackmail the firm into doing what he wants to do, pro bono work and whatever he wants to do within the firm itself, which is contrary to corporate law.
Marc:You know, because Pollock had said you should go to Texas and defend someone on death row and then come back.
Marc:And he's like, I'm going to do that here, you know, because I've got this.
Marc:And he throws it on the table at dinner.
Marc:And I'm telling you, man, that performance by that woman who played the mother, who played Pollock's wife, this sort of like kind of antidepressant laden, you know, woman who is a little out to lunch.
Marc:That was brilliant acting.
Marc:It was almost...
Marc:It was it was passive, you know, and it was unbelievable.
Marc:That whole scene was unbelievable.
Marc:The acting in this thing, the way it's got to have something to do with the script.
Marc:But I think the problem I had with it was that why didn't he, you know, why wouldn't Pollock just pick that thing off the table and say, go fuck yourself?
Marc:Why would Ben Affleck throw it on the table as opposed to hold it, you know, put it back in his pocket, you know, like, you know, protect it.
Marc:Oh, I guess.
Guest:But I mean, I guess part of it is just for the visual for people who are watching.
Guest:But also, I mean, he could have a million copies.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He could do the old Greg from succession thing.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Like have a right.
Marc:Have a have a duplicate.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So but then there's the part where he goes when Affleck after that goes over to the wife's house, Samuel L. Jackson's wife.
Marc:who knows who he is because they've been doing this thing.
Marc:And that scene in the jail, dude, where the wife shows up to visit him in jail.
Marc:And he's like, you know, it's not me, this guy.
Marc:And she's like, it's always a guy.
Marc:It's always this shit.
Marc:And then when he says, can I just see the kids before you leave?
Marc:And she goes, no.
Marc:No.
Marc:That was insane.
Marc:That was fucking great acting, dude.
Guest:But so what was your thing about them?
Guest:Like, was there something that bothered you about that actual ending, though, of him visiting the wife?
Marc:Well, it's sort of like, you know...
Marc:Like, it's one of those scenes, like, I would have liked to have seen that five minutes.
Marc:He's like, you know, he says to her, it's like, I took his 20, you know, give me five.
Marc:Because that five minutes, whatever the fuck he does at the bank and with her, you know, get Tim the house and gets her to sort of give him a second chance.
Guest:Yeah, so that's definitely a note thing that or, you know, just some feeling of like, all right, well, once you know he's going to fix the problem, we don't need any more movie.
Guest:Like the movie has emotionally crescendoed.
Guest:But I agree with you that at this point, what the movie has delivered in terms of its goods has been the performances and how they are emotionally centered.
Guest:And yeah, it feels like that could be a good scene.
Guest:of Affleck having to sell this to the wife.
Marc:Yeah, because if he's a great lawyer, you kind of want to see that.
Marc:Because they set it up in the bank where he's like, all right, let's try.
Marc:He's like, I'm an attorney representing Samuel L. Jackson's character.
Marc:Can I talk to you?
Marc:He's like, I don't want anything to do with that guy.
Marc:And he's like, all right, let's start over.
Marc:So what was that pitch?
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Because if he's a lawyer worth his salt, I mean, I would have liked to have seen that.
Guest:You know what's a great movie that does that is Courage Under Fire with Denzel Washington.
Guest:Do you remember that movie where he's investigating a military situation where the colonel or-
Guest:commanding officer that was played by meg ryan died uh in the line of duty and he's investigating whether how it happened which turns out she was basically fragged by her own troops right and but he is uh he's whatever the kind of version of a jag is but for the army like he's a military investigator and he uh but he's also the
Guest:Carrying this guilt over having, you know, been responsible for a guy under his command dying.
Guest:And the end of the movie is him after he solves the mystery.
Guest:The movie still ends with him going and.
Guest:taking responsibility for the death of that kid at the family's house.
Guest:And they show it.
Guest:It's exactly what you're talking about, where you're like, well, we've actually hit the end of the movie, the plot of the movie, but this is the point of the movie, the emotional reception of this.
Guest:And Washington is great in that scene.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I think that they, they realized that they had ended the movie, like that scene where he delivers the folder.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And after that dinner, they, they're like, well, it's, it's done.
Marc:You know, we have, we have resolution and to show that five minutes or even to show that bit in the bank would have slowed it down a little bit.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:But it would have been, you know, in the seventies, they showed that they'll show that scene.
Guest:Like if this movie was made 20 years earlier, 25 years earlier, you would have gotten that scene.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, but also there's the risk that you didn't believe it, you know, like who the hell knows if they shot it or they didn't.
Marc:It's got to deliver.
Marc:It certainly does.
Marc:And, you know, and with the day, because that's what, that's why, you know, when they're standing across the street at the end, like it, it didn't seem earned to me quite given that woman's performance in the jail.
Marc:I mean, what could he have fucking said?
Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Marc:To be a really good five minutes.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that kind of like kind of fell a little flat for me.
Marc:I was happy about it, but it did feel like a happy ending ish.
Marc:The two buttons they put on it, him with the folder and them across the street.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:But like, I wonder what it would have been like if it had a little less closure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, well, I think that's true.
Guest:And I think it's also because, you know, ultimately you called this a sober movie and you asked me, well, how would you categorize it?
Guest:And aside from categorizing it as drama, like if you ask me what my specific category of it is, is it's an ethics movie.
Guest:It's a movie about ethics.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And, and, and that there are, there's a genre of that.
Guest:Like you can, you can think of a number of them.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:They can be comedies too.
Guest:The movie election.
Guest:That's a movie about ethics.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Essentially.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And, but so like, there were a few times where I was like, oh, this movie is called changing lanes because do the right thing was already taken.
Guest:And that's ultimately what the movie is about.
Guest:Like in any given moment, do you do the right thing?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And yeah,
Guest:Right from the get-go, from them exchanging insurance information, right?
Guest:Or not exchanging it because Affleck doesn't want to.
Guest:He does not do the right thing.
Guest:He leaves the scene of an accident as a lawyer, as a person who should know better.
Marc:And he's an asshole about it.
Guest:right better luck next time that's what's stuck in jackson's craw yeah well the really interesting thing too is that before that when you've seen um how the granddaughter of the trust of the the guy who has the charitable trust has treated affleck basically she's pissed at him that he's involved in trying to take away her grandfather's trust and from the family and he when he arrives at the office and
Guest:And like the first thing he does is go into Toni Collette's office, who's on the phone, and he's talking to her like, what did I do?
Guest:I don't know what I did.
Guest:Like, she has no idea what he's even talking about.
Guest:He's just babbling.
Guest:And because she's like basically his counsel there, you know, someone he used to have a relationship with.
Guest:But at that moment, I was like, oh, he's a codependent.
Guest:Like that's the that's the personality type of this guy.
Guest:Like there is a there is a version of him that's an alcoholic as well.
Guest:He just doesn't happen to be dealing with the disease.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The way that Jackson's character is.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But he's dealing with the same type of codependency and the problems that are his own that he's not that he is not willing to take ownership of.
Marc:Well, yeah, he's literally a codependent because they're using him as a doormat.
Marc:They set him up.
Marc:You know, his father-in-law and everything else.
Marc:Like, and he shows that vulnerability.
Marc:Like, you know, in that exchange with Pollock early on about the boat, that this guy is not cut from the same cloth.
Marc:There's just no way.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:And, you know, and even that scene, that was another area where I realized there were a lot of cuts made, is that at some point he had to explain to Colette's character what happened.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you kind of just move from there.
Marc:You make these assumptions.
Marc:I could just see, because it's such an actor's movie, that I could see where scenes were just cut in the editing room, where they acted them through.
Marc:They had to have.
Guest:Well, and certain things in the movie have to stay in because the plot is so tied to, and as you called it, layered, one thing causing the reaction of another.
Guest:So if you moved out, if you cut elements of the plot, everything would unravel.
Guest:And so I think the things that probably had to go were character moments, which is unfortunate because as you said, it's really the highlight of the film.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:And with all these great actors, everyone pops up and you're so happy to see them.
Guest:That guy, Bruce Altman, who, you know, he plays the probate lawyer.
Guest:Like you see that guy a million times.
Guest:He's so good in this.
Guest:And when he's like, well, you know, if he wants to go make a phone call to this man who he doesn't know his name in a meeting that he doesn't know is occurring, why don't we give him the time to do that?
Yeah.
Marc:I beat that guy out of a part once.
Marc:What?
Marc:Yeah, years ago.
Marc:I'm pretty sure it was him.
Marc:You remember that project?
Marc:It was before, I guess it was actually before Air America, so I didn't know you.
Marc:But there was a project that Janine Garofalo was in.
Marc:You know, was it that, that sort of slice of life thing about the, uh, it was a news, a news crew.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:A news crew thing.
Marc:Like, yeah, he was up for that part.
Marc:We both went to network on that and I got it.
Marc:I got it over him.
Marc:That's amazing.
Guest:He's a great actor, that guy.
Guest:So that's a good, that's a compliment.
Marc:Yeah, it was great.
Marc:You know, and I knew him from everything, you know, but he was great.
Marc:And so was, uh,
Marc:The little guy who played the judge.
Marc:He's a New York guy.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That guy you see all the time.
Guest:The guy who plays the banker.
Guest:I feel like he plays a banker all the time.
Marc:Yeah, well, he was in that movie, that weird movie.
Marc:Was it a Neil LaBute movie that, you know, he sort of broke through in?
Marc:The Company of Men.
Marc:Yeah, that's it.
Marc:That is a Neil LaBute.
Marc:Yeah, and my new buddy, Patrick.
Marc:Jason Patrick?
Marc:Jason Patrick, yeah.
Marc:No, but he's in the other one.
Guest:He's in the follow-up to that.
Guest:He's in the, uh, your friends and neighbors.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's so wild talking to that guy.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:He called you about a Friedkin, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's like, like, I don't know how he got my number and I don't like, I, I rarely pick up those sort of no color ID calls and I picked it up and I just started talking to him.
Marc:Cause like he said, it's a, it's Jason Patrick.
Marc:And I'm like,
Marc:It can't be the actor.
Marc:This must be someone from AA or something.
Marc:How do I know this guy?
Marc:And he was just talking to me about Freak.
Marc:And I'm like, wait, is this Jason Patrick, the actor?
Marc:He's like, yeah.
Marc:I'm like, oh, hey, man.
Marc:And you never found out about how he got your number?
Marc:No.
Marc:I'm so stupid.
Marc:As an interviewer, if that's what I am, I forget these pieces.
Marc:And I had no idea that his grandfather is Jackie Gleason.
Marc:And his father...
Marc:played the priest in the exorcist.
Marc:And he was on set of the exorcist when he was a kid.
Marc:So he's known freaking as like, he'd be an interesting interview, but I blew that.
Marc:Didn't even ask him.
Guest:I'm like, you know, well, two things I wanted to ask you about this one though, changing lanes before, before we wrap it up.
Guest:One is that am I wrong or do they never give William Hertz character a name?
Marc:Yeah, I don't think they do give him a name.
Marc:All you know is that he's the sponsor, that he does this hurt thing, but then you get one cut of him at work, and he's clearly a television producer of some kind.
Guest:Right, so in my head canon, he is the same character from broadcast news who drank himself into oblivion after Holly Hunter left him.
Guest:And this is his...
Guest:Now he's just a producer.
Guest:Yeah, now he's a deacon and he's helping out the newbies.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Marc:And Pollock, I swear to God, could be the same law firm as Michael Clayton.
Marc:Could be the same fucking law firm.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He even, you know what I love is like when he does these things where he like tells someone the truth and it's like, it's not really the truth, but it's in their world.
Guest:It's the truth.
Guest:Like he does it with Michael Clayton a bunch where he's like, don't you know how we pay the bills here?
Guest:And like, it's a terrible justification for awful behavior.
Guest:And he does it in, in this one to Affleck where he's like, you know, what are you going to think about?
Guest:You don't going to think about anything.
Guest:This is, we're getting you off the hook here, pal.
Guest:And you're like, okay, dad, you know, it's so good.
Guest:oh yes sir like i'm i'm ready to like turn away from the tv and avert my gaze because like i feel he's yelling at me yeah that what do you say the high school ethics book what do you want to check you jesus christ and jenkins is like they're just a fucking little codependent partner he's like oh hold on guys hold on no it's not it's not a fraud we actually are piecing two things together yeah yeah yeah
Guest:wow yeah so many good things like that now the other question i had for you that jumped out to me right away and never really had in the past but it made me think about like you talk about how people um have an issue with uh how sometimes how you talk about the program aa how do movies like this get away with it then like how are they not deemed some type of violation of the program
Marc:I'm sure they are, but it's not like there's some sort of AA Gestapo.
Marc:It's not a law.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:It's a tradition that they expect to be honored, but I think it's gotten... I think it was put in place not to...
Marc:to talk about the program in press, radio, and film, was put in place a long time ago when the program was smaller, and they didn't want people to be seen as representatives of AA, I think, for a lot of reasons, but primarily if that person relapses or is an obstacle to people trying to use the program.
Marc:But I think as time went on, and certainly in the modern world, you have very few people, but more than you would think,
Marc:have never experienced someone in AA or an actual AA meeting.
Marc:It doesn't mean they understand it.
Guest:I didn't know what it was until that Michael Keaton movie, like in my life.
Guest:I didn't know that there was a thing like that.
Guest:I thought that when, you know, if people were alcoholics and they had to take care of that, that they went to a hospital.
Guest:Like that was what, like, you know, when you heard about like the Betty Ford Clinic or something.
Marc:Well, they do.
Marc:But, you know, then you got to do the real work.
Marc:You know, once you stop...
Marc:Then you got to get the rest of your brain and heart together, you know?
Marc:And like, you really like, you know, the numbers ultimately are very low in terms of the success rate of AA or anything I would imagine in terms of really getting that disease at bay.
Marc:I think it's like 20 to 30 percent.
Marc:But it is available, it is free, and it is a method.
Marc:But also the AA meeting now.
Marc:But even, like, I don't know, like, it's a good question about the Days of Wine and Roses, because that is an AA movie.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:And that was made, who the hell knows, in the 50s, I guess.
Marc:That movie, you know, in terms of real alcoholism, in terms of really sort of seeing, you know, the arc of that is the greatest movie ever.
Marc:1962 for that.
Marc:That is a ballsy movie.
Marc:Who directed that?
Marc:Blake Edwards.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Lee Remick is astounding in that movie.
Guest:Well, you know who gave four stars to Changing Lanes and listed it as one of the best films of the year when it came out was Roger Ebert, an AA guy.
Guest:He was a program dude and a sober guy.
Guest:And I just think it's very interesting that it's the kind of movie that I think for someone like you and probably someone like Ebert, you are able to acknowledge the kind of film contrivances that go on, the
Guest:the thriller beats, the things that are done in movies that are particularly done for dramatic purposes.
Guest:And you are able to recognize them as containing and enveloping the emotional trajectory of someone struggling with what's eating them inside and the difficulty in staying sober.
Marc:One struggling with the ism, you know, not struggling with the drink so much, but...
Marc:You know, what is underneath the drink.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That defines yourself.
Marc:And then one struggling with his personal morality, which is part of AA, too.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Eventually you have to take responsibility for for your actions, no matter what.
Marc:one way or the other.
Marc:But I tell you, man, in that monologue, after he delivers the file, I mean, it's all right there.
Marc:That is the moment of hitting bottom in sobriety and the realization.
Marc:That is the surrender.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:You know, that where he says, she thinks I'm not going to have a relationship with my kids.
Marc:I will.
Marc:You know, like...
Marc:The acceptance is what it is.
Marc:It's the acceptance.
Guest:And it's necessary for the movie to have that.
Guest:Because like I said to you, the feeling that I had watching it again was this feeling of tension.
Guest:And it's not tension because I'm afraid that some... It's the discomfort of watching...
Guest:People you can deem as good people, even the Affleck character, even from the get-go, you're not like, this is a bad guy.
Guest:You get that he acted like a dick in that moment, but he still has that scene where he's interviewing a prospective new hire, and he starts crying because he's like, why didn't I just give that guy my...
Guest:my insurance information.
Guest:Those two kids, the two young actors, it's great.
Guest:And I realized that I kind of mentally contrasted this movie with Uncut Gems, which was a movie that, you know, it's another New York movie, kind of frenetic pace, thriller, I guess you could call it.
Guest:But I remember when that came out, everybody was talking about how, oh my God, it's unblinkingly tense.
Guest:I was grabbing my seat the whole time.
Guest:I was so nervous and tense the whole time.
Guest:And I watched that movie, and my takeaway of that movie was, dumb idiot has a bad day and gets what he deserves.
Guest:Like, I was...
Guest:I had no sense while I was watching that.
Guest:Like, oh, this is so unbearably tense.
Guest:I can't take it.
Guest:I was like, yeah, this guy's an asshole and he's going to, you know, reap what he sows eventually.
Guest:And this was not that because it was good human people.
Guest:And it goes back to something you said at the beginning of this.
Guest:The movie works because it has good characters and it has great actors playing those characters.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also like the other thing that sticks with me that I can't figure out why.
Marc:And I thought about it twice.
Marc:Like, why does he change the serenity prayer?
Marc:It's a very weird thing because they're clearly, you know, if anything out of the program that is sort of culturally, yeah, known, it's that.
Marc:God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
Marc:But he says, God grant me the strength to,
Marc:to accept the things I cannot change.
Marc:And I don't know why that choice was there.
Marc:I don't know why they chose to do that.
Marc:Is it a character thing?
Marc:Is he not serene?
Marc:Is he misunderstanding still at that moment?
Marc:Has he not fully realized
Marc:That what he needs is to surrender, you know, does he still like, is it, is it loaded or is it just this passing thing?
Marc:And I have to, I have to assume it's loaded.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a decision.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The difference between serenity and strength is very, it's very different.
Marc:Hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But great movie.
Guest:Yeah, I'm glad you recommended to watch it again.
Guest:I hadn't seen it since it came out in the theater, and I remember enjoying it then, but I looked at it with a different perspective this time, and it worked.
Guest:It still worked on me.
Guest:Well, good job.
Marc:That was a good talk.