BONUS Chevy Chase Just Left
Marc:so yes Chevy just left Chevy just left so this came about how you got a text from who his daughter or his wife oh Kaylee his daughter it might be his youngest daughter actually works at the comedy store she plays piano
Marc:And she's a big fan of mine.
Marc:And I see her all the time.
Marc:And she's been sort of like, you know, telling me that maybe we could make it happen.
Marc:And I was always sort of like, I don't know.
Marc:Does he really want to?
Marc:I mean, is it going to be difficult?
Marc:And, you know, these are people that love the guy, right?
Marc:And so it's just like, I just sort of...
Marc:It just didn't seem to me as something that could happen.
Marc:And we've been talking about it for years now, her and I. She's been trying to sort of like get me to come around to it.
Marc:And then she just like the other day, she's like, well, he's around and he wants to do podcasts.
Marc:And I'm like, okay.
Marc:And she's like, I'm going to loop you in with my mom, Janie.
Marc:She'll, she'll manage it.
Marc:So then I texted with Janie and then I got on the phone with Janie and she was like, what do you want to talk about?
Marc:And she was like, kind of like, uh, you know, telling me like, well that, you know, you don't really want to like, you know, uh, you know, that's resolved and, you know, and it, you know, and I'm like, okay, okay.
Marc:But not like, don't do this, don't do that.
Guest:And so, okay, so he just left.
Guest:And what was it like?
Guest:Let's get into it.
Marc:Look, man, I mean, you know, despite whatever we were thinking in terms of, you know, how to approach it, like, my sense was that, you know, the best I could do was, you know, keep him engaged in a fun way.
Marc:And when he came over, he seemed like he wanted to have fun.
Marc:And he wanted to trust me.
Marc:And ultimately, you know, I play played into that, but it felt a little a little fragile.
Marc:But his wife was here.
Marc:And I think that you were right in that, you know, I don't think his memory is great.
Marc:He did at the end mention his heart failure.
Marc:She is there to manage his, you know, impulse.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which which was something that I had thought was the case.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And but I don't think there was any way around it.
Marc:And, you know, and I'm not sure it's it's a bad impulse necessarily.
Marc:Right.
Marc:To let that guy, you know, bury himself every time he talks.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So the the conversation is tempered with that.
Right.
Marc:And, you know, he was defending his point of view on Lauren specifically around the fact that he won't let Chevy host again.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, you know, he was insistent that, you know, it would be huge because he's the original guy.
Marc:It would be a huge success.
Marc:So I think in going through the conversation, when you listen to it, you can tell that he feels that way about himself.
Right.
Marc:That, you know, he was the star.
Marc:There are moments of vulnerability and and there are moments where I think he's truly forgetful.
Marc:But ultimately, what you come out with, you know, this was not I did not get any sense that there was a way to talk about his childhood, really, in terms of, you know, whatever is in the book about his his mother and stepfather being abusive.
Marc:I just didn't see any way to get there.
Marc:Because it really felt that, you know, any any mild push that he was sort of like, what is what?
Marc:Like I when I when I tried to sort of bring up what other people have thought about him, he was, you know, in terms of and I was doing it very diplomatically.
Marc:He's like, who, who, who thinks what?
Marc:And he goes, what are you trying to do here?
Marc:Are you trying for me to say, like, you know, I'm a fuck?
Marc:I'm like, are you a fuck?
Marc:He's like, yeah, I'm a fuck.
Marc:I'm a good one, though.
Marc:I'm a good fuck.
Marc:So there was, you know, it wasn't going to go there, dude.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, I've noticed that in interviews he's done in the past.
Guest:His kind of defense, when he clearly knows exactly what you're talking about, is to say, I don't know.
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:Somebody said what?
Marc:Yeah, you know, I think he knows.
Marc:And I think, you know, I got as close as you're going to get, really.
Marc:But I think that, you know, there's a possibility that might just be by virtue of his fucking narcissism, dude.
Marc:Like, I don't know that he sees himself like that.
Marc:I mean, just by by by the fact that he was that he genuinely could not understand Lauren's logic.
Marc:In not having him host because it would be huge.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So I don't know that it's him, you know, being evasive as much as it is him believing.
Marc:He doesn't get it.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, also because if you actually drilled down on Lauren's reasoning, what do you think Lauren's reason for not having Chevy on as the host is?
Guest:So he won't make a fool of himself.
Right.
Guest:See, I don't think it's altruistic at all.
Guest:I think Lorne, if you want to give Lorne any credit for anything in the world, and I think he deserves credit for this, he is one of the very few people on earth who is preternaturally excellent at judging talent.
Guest:And he knows a dud from a hit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he knows Chevy is cooked.
Guest:And having Chevy host the show is a failure.
Guest:It's not going to be good.
Marc:No, right.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:But there's also the idea that there have been plenty of SNL episodes.
Marc:The truth, what Lorne knows is that Chevy, in terms of what was funny about him originally, is still what he does.
Right.
Marc:There's no evolution there.
Marc:And you'll hear it during the interview.
Marc:You know, he does these little takes and he does these goofy little things.
Marc:He's very chubby.
Marc:But, I mean, it's chubby, you know, frozen in amber in the sense that, you know, whatever his chops are comedically, they're exactly the same dude.
Marc:But he can't be physical anymore.
Marc:But they're exactly the same.
Marc:And I think ultimately...
Marc:I understand what you're saying about Lorne, and of course that's the case.
Marc:But there's also, like, you know, he also doesn't want to dump the show, because all those fucking people, you know, might be able to carry Chevy.
Marc:I doubt it, because he's physically compromised now.
Guest:But also, all the times they've ever had a host who has to be carried, Elon Musk or Steven Seagal or anything like that, that person had some juice.
Guest:So Lorne was willing to sacrifice the performance for the juice.
Guest:Chevy has no juice.
Marc:Yeah, I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:But I do believe that, you know, after talking to him and knowing... You know, we talked about community a bit and he didn't get into the thing.
Marc:But he would have.
Marc:And it was my sense that if Janie wasn't here and, you know, I let him go on, that he, you know, has a lot of anger towards Harmon.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And didn't even remember that Harmon had called to apologize.
Marc:So I don't think all this...
Marc:You know, whatever he is, he is.
Marc:But I don't think he has necessarily any sense that he's done anything wrong.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:You know, he's not reflective about that.
Marc:He would defend it.
Marc:And that might be a psychological thing.
Marc:Who the hell knows?
Guest:But if that's the case, does he have any rationale for, like, why his career stalled?
Guest:Does he think he got railroaded or something?
Marc:Not that I could tell.
Marc:I mean, I think he thinks he did 50 movies.
Marc:And I think that, you know, he thinks he's still waiting for an opportunity that's going to happen.
Marc:You know, I don't think he would, you know, in retrospect, but there was no talking about that kind of stuff, you know, reflectively, other than the talk show, which he was... That was the best moment, really, because he was like, you know, I was terrible at it.
Marc:I don't know what I was thinking.
Marc:And he, you know, and he talked about how he...
Marc:Because I tried to kind of, you know, bait him on that, too.
Marc:He said, like, you know, he had watched other people do it and he took the opportunity and he decided that he was, you know, he didn't need notes.
Marc:He was just going to do it.
Marc:And then he says, my first guest was Robert De Niro.
Marc:And I'm like, what are you thinking?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He did barely talk that guy.
Marc:But he was fairly clear on that, that he just couldn't do that.
Marc:And I said, were you mad?
Marc:Did you insist that you wing it?
Marc:And he's like, I don't know if I insisted.
Marc:So he's always going, you know, I don't think he has the ability of sort of getting that self-awareness.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We talked about deal of the century, but I never got the sense of him.
Marc:He wasn't going to be like, I'm washed up or any of that stuff.
Marc:It just wasn't going to happen.
Marc:So I don't really know what we have there in terms of a document of Chevy turning over a new leaf or seeing things differently.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, what about his sobriety or even the times he's had to clean up from pills and stuff?
Guest:Did he explain that as part of it?
Marc:Kind of.
Marc:I mean, apparently he's never been at all forthcoming about the heart problem.
Marc:But I said, well, you know, you're sober.
Marc:He's like, yeah, I've been sober for 40 years.
Marc:And I'm like, and then his wife goes, no, you know, it's like, you know, three or whatever, you know, and he said, yeah, I drank and I drank, you know, but there's no, he's just not the guy that's going to, you know, do any sort of.
Marc:He's not going to be contrite.
Guest:And he's not going to be... That's a fascinating detail right there.
Guest:I've been sober for 40 years.
Guest:It's like publicly documented that he almost died of alcoholism.
Marc:But I think he was half joking.
Marc:Oh, I see.
Marc:You know, it's just like he's just not going to, you know, express...
Marc:That stuff.
Marc:All he said was that my heart died, my heart failed, and I didn't even know it.
Marc:That's what he's going to do.
Marc:And then when the mics went off, his wife was like, that's the most you've ever said about it publicly ever.
Marc:And I'm like, well, then there was nothing I could do.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So he said something on the mic about it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Marc:Because he was like, you recorded that, didn't you?
Marc:You did, didn't you?
Marc:Because it was almost like he was hoping that we'd sandbag him with it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that we could, you know, get under it.
Guest:Then that becomes the reason.
Guest:You know?
Marc:What do you mean?
Guest:Well, if you go, just like that fucking Washington Post interview with Jeff Eggers, right?
Guest:And he shit all over the whole show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But there was still all this stuff in there about why can't I host the show?
Guest:This and that.
Guest:But he said that the show now is terrible.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:He's sitting there with Jeff Eggers and he says, off the record, the show is awful.
Guest:And Jeff Eggers is like, what do you mean off the record?
Guest:This whole interview is on the record.
Guest:And he's like,
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:You know, and what is only occurring to me now is that this is all part of his self-sabotage, right?
Guest:That if you put it out there, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Mark Maron, who fucked him.
Guest:By recording a thing that was off the mic, and you put it out there, well, then he can blame you for not having the show.
Guest:As opposed to the fact that what Lorne said to his face, which was, you're too old to do this.
Guest:We need to stop having this conversation.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, yeah, it's definitely, you know, look...
Marc:I don't know if there was anything I could do because it was a tightrope.
Guest:But was it a fun talk otherwise?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I just, you know, I kind of played with him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did he know, did he remember you were at the roast?
Marc:No.
Marc:He didn't know me from Adam.
Marc:He didn't know anything.
Marc:That's amazing.
Marc:Nothing.
Guest:Did he respond to the story?
Guest:Did he have any remarks about you having the worst night of your life doing a roast of him?
Marc:Well, yeah, but his memory is everybody was just mean.
Marc:And that's his wife's memory, too.
Marc:It's not that nobody showed up for it.
Marc:It's that Comedy Central hired all these younger comics and people he didn't know who wrote jokes without knowing him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that it was a terrible night.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, that's that's his recollection of it.
Marc:You know, in terms of like, you know, kind of trying to pull out him feeling like it might be his legacy.
Marc:That didn't that didn't that didn't come.
Marc:It didn't come out of him.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, he's 20 years removed from it now.
Guest:So I think he might be, you know, the emotions are definitely not raw about that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:His memory is everyone was mean.
Marc:It was a bad night and he didn't know anybody.
Marc:And he remembered Colbert being good.
Marc:And I don't even remember Colbert being there.
Guest:Yeah, he did basically the early version of the Colbert character.
Guest:Like he got up and like magnanimously like praised Chevy, but it was all backhanded stuff.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So he liked that.
Marc:He remembered that.
Yeah.
Marc:And I had some other weird memory of him wearing a jacket, and I told him about... You know, there were bits and pieces of history that I think were good, but you can just see...
Marc:You know, he told this Rodney Dangerfield story that was suggesting that, you know, Rodney was some sort of pedophile, which is not true.
Marc:Apparently, like, on the first day of shooting, you know, like, he made some really blue joke on the, you know, when they were on the golf cart.
Marc:So he's like, hey, so this is showbiz.
Marc:Where are the kids at for the blowjobs?
Marc:You know, like, whatever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'm like, well, that's just Rodney being like, you know, Michael O'Donohue.
Marc:And he's like, was it?
Marc:And I'm like, yes.
Marc:What are you thinking?
Marc:Like Rodney was being serious?
Guest:Well, also Chevy is that guy too.
Guest:Like Chevy is the guy who walked into SNL in 1985 when he was hosting the show and said to the one openly gay cast member.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, you're the gay guy.
Guest:I have an idea for a sketch for you.
Guest:How about we say you have AIDS and then every week we come out, we bring you out and weigh you.
Guest:That was legit what he said to the guy.
Guest:And so he can't see that Rodney was just being a shocking humorist in that moment.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:And also because, you know, his alignment with Michael O'Donohue early on, he loved Michael O'Donohue.
Marc:And he said specifically because he was mean.
Guest:Right.
Guest:What was that thing they did together before SNL?
Marc:Channel One?
Guest:Yeah, Groovetube.
Guest:Or the Lemmings?
Marc:Oh, Groovetube, sure.
Marc:Groovetube.
Marc:We talked about Groovetube.
Marc:We talked about Channel One.
Marc:We talked about Lemmings.
Marc:We talked about the Steely Dan stuff and his band.
Marc:But, you know, it was hard to navigate because...
Marc:And I think it is, looking back on it, fundamentally a narcissistic thing.
Marc:That you're going to go poke around in there, he's going to fucking lash out.
Marc:And also, he was throwing people under the bus pretty frequently.
Marc:You know, in a way, you know, he talked about Belushi dying and how horrible that was and that Robin and Robert were there, you know, and they were probably doing some stuff too.
Marc:And he's like, I don't think Robert was that into – well, I don't know Robin.
Marc:But, you know, like he's – he just – he can't help himself.
Marc:Who was the Robert?
Marc:De Niro.
Marc:Oh, De Niro.
Oh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But he did sort of confirm that he did chase a girl out here and that he ended up marrying her and that – and he still regrets –
Marc:Leaving SNL.
Marc:And I still think it was the high point of his life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did you say anything to him about leaving and that it was probably the obvious idea?
Guest:Like, you know, in hindsight, he was probably right to leave.
Yeah.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I asked him, you know, why he left and what was the decision?
Marc:Was it to be a star?
Marc:And he said the woman thing.
Marc:And then, you know, he started doing movies.
Marc:But no, he said he wishes he would have stayed for five years like everybody else because it was fun.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:My thinking on it, though, is that...
Guest:When you look back at the history of that show and that first year, he was so clearly positioned above everyone else.
Guest:He was on the cover of the magazines.
Guest:It literally said, live from New York, it's Chevy Chase on the cover of Newsweek or Time.
Guest:I don't remember which.
Guest:And it's like windows are short in show business.
Guest:You know, you know this.
Guest:And it's like if you're if you got the rocket strapped on you and your option is to keep hanging out and doing this show that airs at 11 p.m.
Guest:Eastern every every Saturday night or go out to Hollywood and start making movies immediately.
Yeah.
Guest:That's the better option.
Guest:He did it and they were hits.
Guest:He made big movies.
Guest:So it's just this idea that he made a mistake leaving.
Guest:I just don't buy it.
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:You know, I couldn't get in there in in in any way that he's going to reflect on anything.
Guest:I bet he doesn't reflect on it, especially if you say it's what he keeps going back to, a kind of wistful thing about it.
Guest:It's like, look, dude, this guy went and made some terrible flops, sandwiched in between these enormous hits.
Guest:And when you look at the track records of superstar movie stars...
Guest:They don't do that.
Guest:They manage their careers better.
Guest:They go and they make a movie and then they make a subsequent movie that also hits or is in line with that thing.
Guest:He's going to make an under the rainbow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But whether he was ill advised or not, you know, this guy was going to do whatever, you know, this guy was going to do like, you know, they want me to do a movie.
Marc:I'll do a movie and then maybe he'll get there and complain about it.
Marc:And then, you know, afterwards, if it flops, it's not going to be his fault.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't think there was any chance for him from what you're telling me.
Guest:Like the fact that he succeeded at the level he did for as long as he did.
Guest:A decade plus.
Guest:Like, you can't deny that that guy was a was a draw all the way through like the early 90s, you know, with the Christmas vacation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so that's like a 15 year run in Hollywood.
Guest:He did well by himself.
Guest:He really only started to fall off the cliff after the talk show.
Guest:Hey, that's probably more than he was going to get.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, he's not going to be, you know, reflective about these ebbs and flows of his career.
Marc:I, who the fuck knows why he, you know, I brought up, I heard, I had heard he played poker at Carson's house and that was kind of funny just to sort of throw him into memories like that.
Guest:And you remembered it?
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, cool.
Marc:Yeah, he remembers sitting there, you know, in between Johnny and Steve Martin and Barry Diller was there.
Marc:And this guy Melnick, who was a producer on a show neither one of us could remember.
Marc:I don't know who the fuck he was talking about.
Marc:He said he was the producer of a very popular daytime show.
Marc:His name was Dave.
Marc:And it wasn't Letterman, so I have no idea who that was.
Marc:But he remembered that.
Marc:You know, we talked a little bit about Pryor.
Marc:And about sort of, you know, that he wrote that that word association sketch and he was very aware how far he was pushing it.
Marc:He talked sort of sweetly about hosting the Academy Awards, you know, and how fun that was to make fun of Jack and and how when Richard Pryor came out at the Academy Awards, he said the first line Richard said was black people don't win anything.
Yeah.
Marc:And so, you know, I don't think he's without appreciation, but I do think that that whatever that current is within him that, you know.
Marc:But look, I have a friend who's, you know, coming up on 70 and just really can't quite, you know, fathom that he's not viable anymore.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:And I brought up that Gaffigan thing about touching the sun, but these guys, like their egos, you know, whether it's pathological or not, it just, it does, it's not shifting.
Marc:I mean, it was so clear in that, you know, that he was mad about, you know, not being able to host SNL like next week.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, to the point where his wife was sort of like, well, you have to figure, you got to be able to walk to the car, right?
Marc:without being out of breath first.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So she's got to, you know, sort of coddle this guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and I think that, you know, that, that they're just happy that he's alive and that like, you know, that he, you know, he made it through that heart failure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did you get any sense one, one way or another, why they are doing this, why they suggested he come on, why he wanted to come on?
Guest:Zero.
Marc:Hmm.
Marc:You know, I think that I guess he did Mars, too.
Marc:I don't know what that means.
Marc:But it's probably legacy control, like you thought.
Marc:I would imagine on some level.
Marc:But look, I played with him, and I followed him, and I don't really like... I definitely pull punches, and I definitely am not going to push a guy to a place where...
Marc:it becomes totally awkward.
Guest:You know, I'm sensitive to that.
Guest:You know the zone.
Guest:You know where to keep it and where to push and where to not.
Guest:And, you know, literally we're recording this on the day that it's 14 years to the day when we started this show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think you can trust your instincts very well after 14 years of doing this.
Marc:And my instincts always about him, you know, in talking to his daughter and stuff, it's like, you know, I don't know that, I don't know what I would get out of him.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Because he's, you know, defensive.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and whether he's going to deflect with comedy or whether he's just going to be mad, I don't know.
Marc:But my instincts was, you know, it's going to be one or the other.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that's why I never really pursued it very hard.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, we talked about Aykroyd.
Marc:We talked about Belushi.
Marc:You know, we talked about Christopher Guest.
Marc:We talked about Lauren a little bit, you know, and we talked about... But, you know, even...
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:It's just one of these guys, like we brought up, you know, I brought up foul play and I brought, he's like, I love Goldie Hawn.
Marc:You know, she's great.
Marc:She was terrific.
Marc:And then like later in the interview, we were talking about like the movies he remembers.
Marc:And I said, well, those were great movies.
Marc:He's like, not really.
Marc:And I'm like, well, but Goldie, huh?
Marc:He's like, Goldie's great, but I don't know.
Marc:It was not my thing.
Marc:I'm like, all right.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I'm just remembering right now, it was John Carpenter was the person that said that thing about, because they asked him.
Guest:He worked together with him on that Invisible Man movie.
Guest:And John Carpenter was the one who was like, look, you're asking me about one of the most complicated actors that there is.
Guest:And they were like, Chevy Chase?
Guest:And he's like, yeah, that guy's really complicated.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but I think he's complicated as a person because of this, you know, this ego that gets in his way that he has, you know, he really has seemingly very little control of.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because he was literally baiting me to put that on that I'd recorded, which I, you know, I guess I could have, but I turned it off.
Marc:I didn't realize.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And we wouldn't have put it on anyways.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:But he was like, you recorded that, right?
Marc:You got that, though.
Marc:You got it, right?
Marc:And I didn't know if he was like, you fuck, or like, go ahead.
Marc:You know?
Marc:Use it.
Marc:Or like, you fucking, I know you guys.
Guest:I think it's both.
Guest:I think it's totally both.
Guest:I think that's the key to the whole thing, man.
Guest:He wants somebody else to fuck him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, whatever you want to say about the guy, and I know your impulses around talking to him, what they always have been.
Guest:He's an important part, an important piece of the puzzle of American comedy in the last 60, 75 years.
Marc:I loved him when I was 13.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was a huge deal.
Guest:There's a great story in one of those SNL books that Gilda told.
Guest:I think it's that 1985 book.
Guest:That's not the oral history, but the other one.
Guest:And Gilda was like, I went down to Florida to visit my 84-year-old grandmother.
Guest:And I'm on the show.
Guest:And she was like, wait a minute, you know Chevy Chase?
Guest:The grandma was so...
Guest:She was so astounded that she knew Chevy Chase, not that she's on SNL.
Marc:Dude, I just think it was a combination of forces, but I think that that stardom, you know, just fucked his brain forever.
Guest:Yeah, probably.
Guest:For a brain that didn't have the foundation of dealing with it because of the parenting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And but this guy was like, you know, gilded cage, dude.
Marc:You know, this guy was like.
Marc:Oh, Bard College and all the New York money.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know if the money was there, but like they trace his family all the way back to the fucking Mayflower.
Marc:I mean, well, and I think.
Guest:that was another issue is that a lot of people had this idea of him it's like oh this wasp fuck who had nothing but good opportunities in his life and I saw Paul Schaefer in some interview somewhere was like man everyone always thought this guy was you know the silver spoon in his mouth you know spoiled brat and man when I first heard about his family life like this guy went to the school of hard knocks like Jesus this guy it was terrible
Marc:Right.
Marc:It didn't matter what his pedigree was.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:But I don't think there was... There was just no way to get there, dude.
Marc:No, he won't get there.
Marc:He won't get there until he's dead.
Marc:You know, there's no way... Like, he's not a settled guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he's always on...
Marc:the defensive either comedically or angrily.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And I tried to keep him in the comedically.
Guest:Well, that's good.
Guest:And you didn't even have to have him fall down the stairs or anything to do that.
Guest:Well, now he's kind of hobbled.
Guest:I think he's hobbled because of that.
Guest:I think he literally got a pill addiction because he fell down all the time.
Marc:Yeah, he wasn't going to really... Even in the press material he sent me, he sort of minimized his pill addiction.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because it is sort of touching that the moments of real humility were really around that talk show.
Marc:That he knew he blew that.
Guest:It's a safe place for him to acknowledge failure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Why do you think?
Marc:Because everybody thought that?
Guest:Well, and also it's probably done into something he didn't give a shit about.
Marc:He did it as a goof.
Marc:Oh, a talk show?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:But I remember when it came out, everyone fucking just piled on.
Marc:Immediately.
Marc:Immediate.
Marc:It was immediate and deadly.
Marc:And I think you're right.
Marc:They talked him into it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was no dream of his.
Marc:Nope.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, look, you know, I enjoyed looking at him for an hour.
Marc:And I enjoyed kind of like, you know, the Chevy moments.
Marc:And I think that if you listen closely, you can kind of hear who he thinks he is versus who he may be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's good.
Guest:That's what we do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Maybe, you know, who knows?
Marc:I don't know that I found it ultimately satisfying because you would like somebody with this sort of reputation that precedes him to have some self-reflection, but not everybody's like that.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, let the listeners decide.
Guest:They will.
Guest:They always do.
Bye.
Bye.