BONUS Extra Louis Katz
Marc:Knowing your luck, they'll start hammering right when you start talking.
Marc:From what I can glean from my experience with you.
Marc:You want to put cans on?
Marc:I don't usually, but do you?
Marc:Should I?
Marc:I usually do, but maybe I'll try it without them because I kind of want my hair to dry.
Marc:I mean, if you're watching the levels, I think it's fine or whatever.
Marc:Thanks for that engineering advice.
Ha, ha, ha, ha.
Marc:Now you're full of some kind of new confidence.
Marc:Guy puts a YouTube special out.
Marc:He's telling me how to run my show.
Marc:You heard it.
Marc:Damn, man.
Marc:You're feeling good today.
Marc:What can I say?
Marc:I'm happy.
Marc:I'll take it.
Marc:I'll take it.
Marc:As long as you feel good.
Marc:I can't remember...
Marc:It's so weird doing this without cans.
Marc:This is a big experiment for me.
Guest:Is it weird?
Marc:I mean, we can do it.
Marc:I'll do it with you if you want.
Marc:I'll put them on.
Marc:Do you want me to put them on?
Marc:No, you don't have to put them on if you know how to talk.
Marc:I might have to just because they live on my head.
Marc:See, now I feel like we're doing a show.
Marc:Before I thought we're just kind of floating.
Marc:What's the matter?
Marc:Can I change the level on it?
Marc:What do you want?
Marc:Just a little bit lower.
Marc:Let's see if I can figure out how to do that.
Marc:Hey, hey, hey.
Marc:Oh, did that work?
Marc:No.
Marc:No?
Marc:It worked for me.
Marc:Hold on.
Marc:How about this now?
Marc:Is yours going down?
Marc:Yeah, that's good.
Marc:That's good?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Huh.
Guest:Cool.
Marc:I guess this is better.
Marc:Is it better?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I run hot, you know, so I get things on my head.
Marc:Oh, you mean literally physically?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Your concern about wearing headphones is sweat on your head.
Guest:Yes, just hotness in general.
Guest:huh i used to i think i ran i ran hotter at another time i you know what it was that was crazy thing to see with my dad he slept in his underwear for years it was yeah it was a kind of his thing you know yeah now he's like fully in a full sweatsuit with a beanie i don't know i don't know i guess that's a thing that happens to people is he old and thinner are you saying that i'm as old as your dad how old you're not as old as my dad yeah i'm still sweeping in my underwear with no problem all right respect
Marc:uh you know but i used to sweat profusely and i find that it's completely anxiety related really yes almost entirely like i don't like i used to have pit stains all the fucking time and at some point it just went away but then it'll happen at odd times like if i'm tanking yes
Marc:Like, I can feel that sweat on the back of my neck.
Marc:And it just, like, it fucking happens.
Marc:Flop sweat is real.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:The worst is when I, sometimes I bike to gigs and it looks like I come in.
Guest:I come in flopping.
Guest:Like, I'm coming in.
Guest:Failing.
Guest:Yeah, failing.
Guest:But do you use antiperspirant or do you use deodorant?
Guest:No.
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:Okay, because I was going to say, the antiperspirant actually makes you sweat more.
Marc:No, it's all bullshit.
Marc:I don't wear any of it.
Marc:Really?
Marc:No, I just can't.
Marc:Nothing helped when I was younger.
Marc:It was all a lie.
Wow.
Marc:And I was just an embarrassed guy with pit stains prematurely.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:Yeah, it was a rough go.
Marc:That sounds really rough.
Marc:Between that and premature ejaculation, I was fucking toast until I was about 19.
Marc:Just a sweaty, smelly, quick-coming dude.
Marc:Well, unfortunately, I didn't smell that bad, but I did perspire a bit.
Guest:At one point, I just experimented with deodorant.
Guest:If it makes you smell better, why not put it all over your body?
Guest:I did that in junior high.
Guest:It turns out you get a rash is what happens.
Marc:You took a roll-on.
Marc:I just put it everywhere.
Marc:Well, you can do that with that talc kind of spray.
Marc:What is that?
Marc:Something foot powder.
Marc:What is that?
Marc:Golden Seal?
Marc:What's it called?
Marc:Gold Seal?
Marc:Gold Bond.
Marc:Gold Bond.
Marc:Yeah, they have a spray that you can kind of...
Marc:Talc up everywhere.
Marc:You can.
Marc:Yeah, no, you can talk up.
Marc:I was doing that like doing in the humidity in New York.
Marc:I'm like, maybe because then I'm just I can't stop this way.
Marc:Yeah, that's just what it's over.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I would just cover myself with the gold bond thinking like this will do it.
Marc:And then you just have this weird film of, you know, kind of gunky talc.
Marc:No good.
Marc:No good.
Marc:No good.
Marc:But how are you with rashes in general as a sweaty person?
Guest:I actually don't rash a lot.
Guest:I'm pretty good.
Guest:And I use a natural deodorant, so I think that helps.
Guest:And it's just deodorant.
Guest:It's not antiperspirant.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I'm pretty good.
Guest:You know what I also do is I try and sleep at night before I go to bed, and I don't put on deodorant then.
Guest:So I have a good...
Guest:It's good.
Guest:I think it's important to have like eight hours of the day, 10 hours of the day when you have no deodorant.
Guest:I mean, you have none ever, but I'm saying I switch off.
Guest:Yeah, you are.
Marc:I mean, you know.
Marc:Oh, so you're proud that you sleep when you don't put deodorant on before you go to bed?
Guest:I've run it by accident once.
Guest:I was pissed off, you know, because I could feel it.
Guest:This is the big victory.
Guest:I mean, I got to take them when I can get them, man.
Guest:This is what I do.
Marc:And then try and experiment, not, you know, act like I'm going out in the morning before I go to sleep.
No.
Marc:I'm going to go to bed just without worrying about anything.
Marc:See how that goes.
Guest:It just feels, I mean, you don't understand that.
Guest:I mean, you're living free all the time.
Guest:I only have part of my day to live without deodorant and I enjoy it.
Guest:What do you, why are you working?
Guest:What do you mean I'm working?
Marc:Are you working with me?
Marc:I live free all the time.
Marc:How do you not live?
Marc:You have no deodorant all the time.
Marc:I'm talking deodorant free.
Marc:You made me feel like, you know, like, dude, I got a fucking job.
Marc:I got to be at like, what job do you have?
Marc:Are you back writing or any, what's happening?
Guest:No, I don't have no.
Guest:I have I have the full time job of promoting myself and booking myself and writing myself and everything.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:We all have to do it.
Marc:And I'm I'm not concerned, but I think I'm I think I'm aging out of the racket.
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:Well, I just mean that when you start to – and I just realized this recently that if you're going to do a club – all right, so I have this platform, which is limited.
Marc:It's not like millions of people.
Marc:But I assume the people that like me listen to me.
Marc:But they don't listen all – sometimes they go a couple weeks without listening.
Marc:So I got to plug the gigs on here.
Marc:I got to put them on what's left of Twitter.
Marc:I got to mention it on Instagram.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Because what you realize if you're not doing a promoted gig like a Live Nation gig or a theater but just a club –
Marc:It's fucking all on you.
Marc:Yes, 100%.
Marc:I mean, the club, what are you going to do, local radio?
Marc:You can do that.
Marc:But the club's outreach is nothing.
Marc:They don't even try anymore because they don't have to.
Guest:No, I don't think they do.
Marc:I mean, they all have their Instagrams and their Twitters, but they don't give a fuck.
Marc:They really don't.
Marc:I don't know if they don't have to.
Marc:I don't know what the deal is.
Marc:Because I do regular comedy clubs building the hour.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And then there are some markets that I'll only do regular comedy clubs in because I can't pull a theater there.
Guest:Well, I think they're relying on like TikTok stars or YouTube stars or podcast stars to sell the tickets.
Guest:Yeah, they don't give a fuck.
Guest:Yeah, they don't.
Guest:They don't.
Guest:I mean, the good ones will only sell those tickets.
Guest:They'll save those nights for like earlier in the week so real comedians can still do the weekends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you'd think they'd build up those audiences and say, oh, you like this, maybe you'll like a real comedian.
Marc:Well, it turns out that most club owners don't give a fuck.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:About, you know, it's just sort of like, I don't know what this guy does.
Marc:Does he sell tickets?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, they don't care.
Marc:I remember, well, it doesn't matter.
Marc:I just, I was watching your special and then I started to realize like, you know, to most, I don't know a lot of young comedians.
Marc:I know almost none of them.
Marc:I've sort of, you know, my circle has closed in.
Marc:A bit.
Marc:And I can't keep up with it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I mean, it was always like that.
Marc:But like there's some part of me that thinks like I'm still in it.
Marc:But like you just barely, you know, like I have my people.
Marc:Most of them are my age with a couple of weird younger people that get me.
Marc:But I have to assume there's a whole generation of comics who are like Marc Maron.
Guest:I mean, it doesn't bode well when I'm a young comedian, you know, and I'm 44.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And, you know, at some point I thought we were on the same playing field.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I just turned 60 and I'm like, why are these guys still in their 40s?
Marc:Weren't we all the same age for a while?
Marc:Watching your special, I realized that I kind of miss filth.
Marc:I think there was a different time.
Marc:I was trying to think of what filth am I really doing and how am I doing it?
Marc:Because I appreciate filth.
Marc:I like filth.
Marc:I miss filth.
Guest:I tried to go a little cleaner on this stuff I'm working on since then, and honestly, it's like I was doing it, it just didn't feel right, and it just didn't feel right until I was doing something that was kind of like, not just filthy, but almost walking the line, if not going over it.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, like, I would say most of my jokes about, you know, fucking and jerking off.
Marc:We're not talking, like, I didn't give them up outright.
Marc:I mean, I'd say two specials ago, there was plenty of, you know, jerking off jokes at the very least.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Maybe some fucking.
Yeah.
Marc:But maybe it's an ageing.
Marc:You get to a certain age where, you know, you can't.
Marc:Well, I'm doing one joke about, you know, my girlfriend.
Marc:But, yeah, it used to be like you'd head towards it to close with, man.
Marc:It's like that classic Hicks rule.
Marc:Never straight far from Dick Joke Island?
Marc:Yeah, Dick Joke Island.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, dude, it's true.
Guest:I also enjoy the switching it off.
Guest:I like doing something heady or a social commentary and then hitting him with a dirty joke.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just because I try and I try not write the same style of joke and I try not to talk about the same topics and just so they never see what's coming.
Guest:That's what I'm trying to do.
Marc:You know, I think you did that.
Marc:I think the new special.
Marc:I don't know why you didn't call it garbage dick hummus hog.
Marc:I should just adapt that.
Marc:Or she's gone, comma, I still got jokes.
Guest:That's pretty good, actually.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Damn, well, it's too late.
Guest:Well, maybe the next one.
Guest:The graphics have been made up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But no, I just, I don't know.
Guest:I really like these kind of jokes, these hardcore jokes.
Guest:And it kind of, honestly, it bums me out that I feel like...
Guest:I feel like hardcore comedy all of a sudden got like kind of co-opted by the right.
Guest:And it bums me out, you know, and it bums me out to see.
Marc:But the comics volunteer for it.
Marc:I mean, if you're you know, you know, you wave a banner.
Marc:They got co-opted by the right only because there was an alignment almost tribally around anti-woke comedy.
Marc:So if you're going to present yourself as a purveyor of anti-woke or even mention wokeness, you know, as a target, then, you know, you're volunteering to be co-opted.
Marc:But a lot of them just think they're fighting for something.
Marc:Surprise, a lot of comics are shallow dumb shits.
Guest:Yeah, I said, I actually said this at, oh, I did this when I was marrying somebody, my friend Grant.
Guest:I said, you know, they say comedians are smarter than the average person, which is true.
Guest:Comedians are generally smarter, but the average person is very dumb.
Guest:And so it doesn't mean that comedians are that smart.
Guest:It just means they're slightly smarter than the average person.
Marc:But there's a limitation to or maybe a context.
Marc:I'm finding it with myself that we all have this blind side, this blind spot.
Marc:That even if you're hyper intelligent, you could be missing a big chunk of what's really going on.
Marc:Because I believe that a lot of these comics see they're fighting a good fight and it drops off there.
Marc:It's like we should be able to say whatever the fuck that is.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You know, oh, I'm going to get canceled for this or that.
Marc:You know, fuck wokeness or whatever.
Marc:But the bigger picture is they really don't see how effectively they're being co-opted by right wing ideologues.
Guest:But see, I think you're seeing that like it's more than that, though.
Guest:It's bigger than what you're saying.
Marc:It's bigger than comedians who just want to say I got blind spot.
Guest:Yeah, I think it's bigger than that.
Guest:I think it's this idea that that kind of comedy that the left doesn't like.
Guest:Edgy jokes and edgy jokes are for the right.
Guest:And I think it's gone beyond the fact that like politicians are manipulating those kind of comedians.
Guest:It's like that's the viewpoint now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Of the people.
Guest:So we're taking away from the comics and the politicians.
Guest:Like I did a show.
Guest:I opened for a tell at that theater in Boston.
Guest:And my friends.
Guest:At the Wilbur?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And my friend's kid who just started Emerson like the week before came.
Guest:He saw us.
Guest:He brought his new roommate.
Guest:You know, he's a freshman.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we gave him posters to hang up in their dorm room because you need a poster for your dorm room.
Guest:He's like, wait till these wait till liberals see this.
Guest:I'm like, what do you think we are?
Guest:Like, what do you think we are?
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Like, so I don't see that's it.
Marc:That's the umbrella of wokeness.
Marc:It's liberals, LGBTQ, feminists, Jews.
Marc:Like, it's a big umbrella, dude.
Marc:And this demonizing of liberals.
Marc:Well, that's it.
Marc:You and I tell who's not political.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:You know, who, you know, were doing comedy, you know, whether it's message driven or not, it was for for joke's sake and for humor's sake and for taking chances.
Marc:But certainly you wouldn't, you know, if if it tells going to do a joke about gays, it's going to have some balance.
Marc:It's going to end up kicking him in the ball somehow.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, also, it's going to be a joke when that's kind of part of the special is when you say a joke, there's ambiguity in a joke.
Guest:If you're not if you're not straight up preaching and telling your points of telling just what you think.
Guest:I think people say like, you can't just say, I'm just joking, get away with saying horrible things.
Guest:But the thing is, a joke itself, if it's right, has some ambiguity and nuance to it.
Marc:But also, if it's character-driven, because a tell is a tell.
Marc:That's true, too.
Marc:And a tell is a joke teller.
Marc:That is his craft, and there's really no one better at writing jokes than him.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It's the same with Jeselnik.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:is that the point of view is specific to the character they are on stage, and it's limited to jokes.
Marc:So once you get the hang of that, no matter how crass or off-color or wrong-minded it is, it is appropriate to the character that's telling it.
Marc:100%.
Marc:But when you're somebody like me, that everyone's sort of like, he's just talking, which is half true, and you're kind of the same way.
Guest:I think it's way more true of you.
Guest:In fact, last time I opened for you, it was like I could tell they were like...
Guest:I don't hide the joke as well as you do.
Guest:And I felt like the crowd was like, this is corny.
Guest:You know, I felt, or maybe that's just in my head, but that's how I felt about it.
Guest:Like, why is he telling jokes?
Guest:I'm like, Marin tells jokes too.
Guest:I wanted to like, just ring them by the neck.
Guest:Like he tells jokes too.
Guest:You guys, you believe the illusion.
Guest:You fell for his trick.
Guest:I mean, it's a beautiful trick.
Guest:I'm saying, but you know, I know you think of them as jokes too.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I hate when people say that.
Marc:It's like you're more of a storyteller.
Marc:I'm like, no, I'm a long form comic.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's a tradition of that.
Marc:That is just as old as your dumb one liner.
Marc:You fuck.
Marc:People have been sitting on stools since the fifties.
Marc:You fuck.
Marc:Let me get you a couple of Shelly Berman records and go fuck yourself.
Yeah.
Marc:That's such a funny sentence.
Marc:That's ridiculous.
Marc:I do know they're jokes, but I also know, not unlike you, is that the emotional foundation of the joke are characters.
Marc:are pretty close to who we are.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:They're slightly amplified, and obviously we have another 23 hours in every day to function like relatively normal people.
Guest:Yes, like humans.
Marc:But the way we characterize ourselves and what we've gone through is the foundation of our character on stage.
Marc:So, you know, Attell's not like that.
Marc:No, you're right.
Marc:And Jezelnik's not like that.
Marc:But I think, like, when you do long-form shit, you know, you're kind of—
Marc:you're, you're engaging in a conversation that's different than standard joke telling.
Guest:I think, yeah, I think you have to, well, what I say is I try and think about what is my joke really saying?
Guest:So if it's satire, if I'm saying something quote unquote bad, what is the reverse of that?
Guest:Like, what is the message of this joke?
Guest:And am I okay with that?
Guest:And I try and run every joke I tell through that filter.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And if I'm okay with it, then, then it's, then it's fine.
Marc:Well, I think the, one of the things that you do that, you know, the way you ride the line and I believe I do it too sometimes is,
Marc:Most of the time is that, you know, you're setting up this thing that could really go south.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And instead of, you know, matter of facting it, you know, you kind of do an amazing turn of phrase where, you know, you're saying essentially the wrong minded thing, but the joke is elevated.
Marc:So people are impressed with the, you know, like, oh, shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You let us off the hook, right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You build that tension and then you release it.
Guest:And that's what it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:And like, I have a new joke that's not on the special.
Guest:We're like, I lose them.
Guest:I get them back.
Guest:I lose them again.
Guest:I get them back again.
Guest:And I kind of, it's taken me so long to have that confidence.
Marc:I used to do, I used to say what that was.
Marc:I say, I used to say on stage, like, this is my way of, this is how I, this is my system.
Marc:I push you away just to pull you back in.
Marc:I push you away just to pull you back in.
Marc:It's a little dynamic.
Marc:I call dad.
Yeah.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:It just took me a while to accept those silences.
Guest:I trim so much fat from my act.
Guest:Me too, dude.
Guest:And to just be able to say, you're going to lose him here.
Guest:The next line's going to get him back.
Guest:It's going to be okay.
Guest:And that's something I've learned in the last couple years.
Marc:No, yeah, me too.
Marc:Like, more recently than I want.
Marc:And I think really the person I have to attribute it to is when I had Nate Bargetzi featuring for me.
Marc:Like, he used to open for me.
Marc:And I didn't know why I was so taken with that guy because I got hip to him.
Marc:But early on, dude.
Marc:I'm early on.
Marc:I started with him.
Marc:When I moved to New York, he was one of the first friends I made.
Marc:I got hip to him.
Marc:I had met him, but I didn't remember him.
Marc:I saw him at the Grand Rapids Festival doing these short sets.
Marc:I'm like, who the fuck is this guy?
Marc:He's very deliberate.
Marc:There are guys that are deliberate in their pace because they're not going to have another pace.
Marc:There's no second gear for that guy.
Marc:This is what it is.
Marc:It's the same with Todd Berry.
Marc:It's the same with these guys that you and I, because we're flailing Jews...
Marc:You know, we're going to, you know, we're going to dance around.
Marc:We're going to pick up the pace.
Marc:We're going to like try to get them, you know, and there's a, but there, there are dudes that have a single mindedness or just one speed dude.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So like they've been waiting their whole career for people.
Marc:I used to watch Jeff Lipschultz, who was Jeff Ross.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Just tank because it was like, it was like the worst.
Marc:It was like, what is this guy doing?
Marc:His pace is so slow, you know?
Marc:Wow.
Marc:But then like, you know, they come around and there's a faith in it.
Guest:I love those guys that have their own rhythm like that, like Todd, especially now these days.
Guest:Like, you know, I mostly work the cellar and I'm in New York and there's, you know, the cellar is now like four rooms.
Guest:And honestly, it starts to feel a little bit like a comedy factory.
Guest:And I feel like everyone kind of sounds the same.
Guest:I don't go in there anymore.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, they all sound like a tell still probably.
Marc:No, it's kind of like a Louis Burr thing.
Guest:It's like, you know, like I'm going to tell you something that's crazy.
Guest:And then I'm going to prove to you through joke that it's, and maybe I do that too, but I think I have a little different joke styles that change it up a little bit, but you watch.
Guest:And then Todd gets on stage.
Guest:You're like, or tell like, wow, these guys have their own voice.
Guest:It sounds like totally just them, and it's so good.
Guest:Gary Veeder, have you seen Gary Veeder?
Guest:He's a slow-paced Jew also, like Todd, I guess.
Guest:And he also, I just like... And what you said about... Morale, too.
Guest:Yes, about picking up the pace.
Guest:I'm just learning... Literally, within the last month, I realized when I wasn't doing well, I would start talking faster.
Guest:And I realized that signals to the crowd that I'm nervous.
Guest:And I just got to lay in the pocket, man.
Guest:I just got to like...
Guest:I just got to be my own rhythm and not, I not speed it up, which is like very, I can't believe I'm still learning.
Guest:I guess you, I mean, you sound like it, like I'm going to keep learning things, but it's just crazy.
Guest:Like, wow, it took 23 years to learn that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it's like, it's, but I know the difference.
Marc:It's like, it was not like, I always, I could sit in a bomb pretty good.
Marc:I didn't like it.
Guest:I've seen it.
Marc:And I'd actually go longer.
Marc:I'd actually kind of relax into a bomb.
Marc:That's awesome.
Marc:I can't do that.
Marc:But it used to be like, if you saw me sit down on stage, that meant that I'm tanking and I want to sort of counteract it by acting comfortable.
Marc:I've gone long when I'm bombing so many times.
Marc:You just sit in it?
Marc:Did you win them back?
Marc:Not really, but like...
Marc:Like the way I rationalize it is, well, I don't want them leaving saying I didn't try.
Marc:That's crazy, dude.
Marc:But it was just something I did, you know, and I make audiences so uncomfortable for so many years.
Marc:But now I've become very aware of joke structure and joke writing.
Marc:So once I get some stuff working, you know, usually the way stuff comes out of me first when I when I start to work on it.
Marc:It's frenetic.
Marc:It's like me.
Marc:It's like how I talk.
Marc:Because my buddy made this observation.
Marc:Like I've got to wait till a flurry of like, you know, of new ideas comes.
Marc:Because when I start doing them first up, because I don't write jokes like you.
Marc:You write on stage, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when they first come.
Marc:It's exciting.
Marc:There's a flurry of thinking, and it's a whole different energy.
Marc:And then over time, I kind of trim it up, and I tighten it up, and I hammer it down.
Marc:I find callbacks.
Marc:But my buddy watched me for the first time in a long time, and he goes, yeah, your energy is different.
Marc:I'm like, oh, that's because I was polishing.
Marc:Ah, I see.
Marc:And I don't want that necessarily to be – that's why I always leave a little room in the hours to riff around and dick off because I think what I've learned –
Guest:You're so crazy with that.
Guest:Every time you tell me that when you shot an hour, like, yeah, I didn't have a set list.
Guest:I wasn't sure what I was going to do.
Guest:It's like, you blow my mind, dude.
Guest:It's like crazy that you do it like that.
Marc:Well, I've gotten more responsibility.
Guest:I've gotten more responsible.
Marc:Okay, all right.
Marc:No, I've worked the order.
Marc:Okay, okay.
Marc:But the one thing that I don't do, like the last special, because I had to deal with that chunk on Greed, there was definitely sections, and I had to find callbacks.
Marc:And, you know, there are some jokes that, I don't know, they could have been better, but those are the moments where I wish, like, you know, why can't I write?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Why can't I write?
Marc:I commit to these things.
Marc:You write all the time.
Marc:But what I will do is generally heading into an hour, like a taped hour, I'm usually like up to a week or two before still doing 90-minute sets.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So I won't shave it down to like the week before.
Marc:So that makes it exciting because you're repositioning things.
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:And it kind of makes it alive again because you have to – and I'm surprised that I can do it.
Marc:That like, I'm like, all right, that got, that comes out, that whole chunk out.
Marc:You don't just tape 90 minutes and then cut it down to an hour?
Guest:Wow, really?
Guest:Never, haven't.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:I try to hit it on the money.
Guest:And do you take the 30 left over and put it over, does that go into the net?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sometimes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's still like there's stuff that, you know, there's things that have been around that, you know, I didn't work in and I can use them again.
Marc:A lot of times it's, it's topical, you know, the first 10 for 15.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Kind of like, you know, I'm not going to, I can't use that COVID shit anymore.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I didn't put it on the special.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The COVID stuff.
Guest:It's kind of like, I try, I haven't had like, it's kind of my pet peeve is like, I don't want to hear more COVID stuff.
Marc:It's weird, though, because there are still people talking about things that happened a decade ago.
Marc:But the one thing that we all shared that was the most traumatic, scary event of our lifetimes for three years is we're like, I'll bring it up.
Guest:Yeah, well, because I think it was all we could talk about for two years was that.
Guest:It's like, let's take a break.
Guest:Yeah, and talk about our dicks again and relationships, stuff that never gets talked about.
Yeah.
Guest:Hey, well, you got to talk, you know, people make people say it's like, oh, comedians just talk about the difference between men and women or dating or whatever.
Guest:It's like complaining about that.
Guest:It's like, oh, is this guy going to write another song about love?
Guest:Like, yeah, they are.
Marc:OK, because that's what life is.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Or it's what that comic talks about.
Marc:I know I started to have that realization with this new hour.
Marc:I've already got like an hour and 10, hour and 15.
Marc:Awesome.
Marc:But I'm starting to realize I'm just saying the same thing over and over again in different setups.
Guest:Oh, but people say people write the same book over and over again.
Guest:People make the same movie over and over again.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest:That happens, I think, across art.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I'll use that.
Marc:I'll take that rationalization.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Use it.
Guest:But do you push yourself?
Guest:You say, oh, this time I'm going to try and do this.
Guest:Like, do you try and do that at all?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I mean, like right now, like I saw no other place to go but in.
Marc:In that, you know, I think that the talking about grief thing opened up this portal of possibility to where I gained confidence in being able to sort of carry the darkest shit, but not in a shock way, but in a genuine way.
Marc:Like emotional things that people go through.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I talked about grief and learned how to work within it and have – because there are certain things that are always going to be horrible that everybody deals with.
Marc:But, you know, so the sadness is there.
Marc:So it's balancing that is the trick.
Marc:So I've started to talk a little bit about –
Marc:Shit I went through as a little kid that might have been, you know, I'm literally talking about possibly being molested by a babysitter.
Marc:Jesus.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just now you never have you ever went.
Guest:Did you like just realize that happened to you or not really?
Marc:I knew it kind of happened.
Marc:But but the setup for the joke is, is that like when I was a little kid, like, you know, we had this babysitter.
Marc:I was about four or five.
Marc:My brother was like three or four.
Marc:OK.
Marc:And we had this babysitter, a male babysitter, who wanted us to suck his cock.
Marc:What?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then I say, in my recollection, I didn't do it.
Marc:But then I go, but now I'm thinking back on it.
Marc:I'm like, how could I not have done it?
Guest:But how did you know there was a desire to do it and you're not sure if you did it or not?
Guest:I mean, this whole thing, how did you even know he wanted you to?
Guest:Well, I remember him saying it.
Marc:I remember him taking his dick out.
Marc:No way.
Marc:And me and my brother were there.
Marc:And he said, you know, get on it.
Marc:You know, I remember that.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:That's real.
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:It's not that crazy.
Marc:Like half the fucking people in this goddamn world get fucked with this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it's really it's not what justifies it is that it's not an uncommon experience.
Marc:But it's certainly knowing that it's not something people are going to make light of.
Marc:And so that's the balance.
Marc:Like, how do I talk about this honestly, where it connects with people that have been through similar things, you know, disarm it as much as possible, contextualize it and then elevate it to make it funny without, you know, diminishing somebody's trauma?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And so that's, so you asked me if I challenge myself, that's the new challenge.
Guest:Yeah, dude, that's a challenge.
Guest:That's crazy, man.
Guest:I really like what you said about how it's like, it's not that crazy.
Guest:It's not that uncommon.
Guest:I think that's like, well, that's what I learned about grief.
Guest:That's an important thing about it, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Grief is like that too.
Guest:And no one talks about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's like, it's a guarantee.
Guest:It happens to everybody.
Guest:Totally.
Marc:Like, you know, and like, and you don't, my thing is, is like, you know, in your special, you talk about certain comics that to do this or that where, where they're, they just, you know, the authentic self versus the comic self.
Marc:And when they talk about, you know, when they shift gears into what they're really going to talk about, it sounds like an NPR thing.
Marc:Like, like I, I don't want to be the, the, the, the type of standup that kind of shifts into a pseudo Ted talk about, you know, one topic.
Marc:Where, you know, the entire special becomes, you know, this exploration of something.
Marc:Because I still see myself as a club comic on some level.
Marc:So if I'm going to deal with these things... Right.
Marc:So if I'm going to deal with these things, I've got to package them in a way where they function as stand-up and not some sort... Dude, that's exactly... That's why I literally... I watch these specials and I'm like...
Guest:Marin does this, but it's funny.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you can do it and it's funny and you're just being lazy about it.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And they're they're they're playing for the vulnerability.
Guest:They're playing for victimhood.
Guest:They're playing for all these things that are easier than doing what you do, which and what I aspire to do and make them funny, which you can do.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Just being lazy about it.
Marc:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You can't just sort of, you know, like like what I was saying before, that the reality is the sadness or whatever it is, is is a constant.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you can't just say like, well, I put it out there and that's enough.
Marc:It's like, no.
Marc:Yes, yes, exactly.
Marc:Write a joke about it.
Marc:Like, you know, anybody can go to a support group.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Anyone can read their journal on stage.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I have that feeling I don't really talk about it publicly where, you know, everybody's celebrating this type of comedy where it's like it's so wonderful.
Marc:I'm like, I've been doing that for 20 years.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Dude, I've been saying that.
Marc:I've been doing this for 20 years.
Marc:That's what I yelled at at this TV.
Marc:I was out there tanking.
Marc:with this stuff for 20 years i was out there at the what the fuck is that place called the one i taped at the one in seattle where that guy terry's old club oh where you're yelling yeah i've been doing comedy 20 years and i kill still can't fill a room like i think that echoes through my head when i can't fill a room right now now it's so much even more relatable now yeah i think i had like a two or three year window where i was filling rooms but yeah you start to see it diminish you're gonna end up right back there yeah that's on your album you're yelling that on your album
Marc:Why can't I remember the name of that fucking comedy club in Seattle?
Marc:Laughs?
Marc:No, it was the other one that closed up, but it might be back.
Marc:Oh, it was Terry Taylor.
Marc:He died.
Marc:Oh, come on.
Marc:It wasn't the comedy underground.
Guest:It's not the comedy underground?
Guest:Then I don't know what it is.
Guest:It's either the laughs or that.
Marc:Maybe it was the comedy underground.
Marc:I can't believe I can't remember.
Marc:That's fucking ridiculous.
Marc:I taped three fucking records there in the worst club in the country.
Guest:I love those records.
Yeah.
Marc:I love those records.
Marc:So I'm like-minded in that.
Marc:Look, I know that I could probably do a pretty good performance piece, but I can do that on these mics.
Marc:I can do it in a podcast where in the monologue, I don't feel pressure to be funny.
Marc:But when I do comedy...
Marc:It should be funny.
Guest:Well, see, this is what I'm saying.
Guest:Like, see, this is another thing I'm talking about being co-opted by the writer or whatever.
Guest:I think feel like there's people like you and Patton Oswalt who like Bamford and Bamford.
Guest:Oh, man, I love best.
Guest:But like you guys have club chops and then you were all comics with club chops.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then once all comedy became its own thing, no one got the club chops.
Guest:And it bums me out, man.
Marc:We went into it with, you know, like me and Pat and certainly Maria and a few other people, some of the Chicago guys.
Marc:You know, we came out of club comedy.
Marc:I mean, I'm older than them.
Marc:So, like, the system I was brought up in is, you know, there was no other place to do comedy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the fucking comedy club.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So you kind of went up through.
Marc:I got my 10 minutes.
Marc:I did my open mic.
Marc:Now I'm opening at the club.
Marc:And then, you know.
Marc:So, yeah, so I had that, and I still honor that.
Marc:It's sort of like the whole Dick Joke Island thing.
Marc:No one thinks that way anymore.
Marc:Half these fucking comics I see do ours, they don't even have a closer.
Guest:It blows my mind, dude.
Guest:You're like, that's just it?
Guest:And then you just fucking curtsy and walk off?
Marc:You've got to be kidding me.
Marc:But I'm jealous of it.
Marc:Like I watched Gaffigan's last special and all of a sudden he's like, okay.
Marc:You know, like at an hour or two, he's like, thank you.
Marc:And I'm like, that was it?
Marc:Well, he's on his like eighth hour of material.
Marc:But even Nate, I watched his special again, you know, recently.
Marc:I've watched a new one twice because I'm sort of fascinated with, you know,
Marc:Because so much of his stuff hangs on—like, only he can do it.
Guest:Yes, totally.
Guest:It's hard to even understand how he does it.
Marc:But his comedic persona is solid.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it's uniquely his.
Marc:But, you know, he kind of ends—it's kind of a big punchline, but it's not a big build.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Well, I think that's just a change for him.
Guest:He used to, like, when Nate is, like, the best for me, it becomes this roll, man.
Guest:Maybe because there's stories, too, but, like, man, you just, like, you can't catch a breath, man.
Guest:It's pretty amazing.
Guest:It just rolls and rolls and rolls, and it's just, like, oh, man, it's so funny.
Marc:I was very impressed with this last one because he talked about the variations of...
Marc:of Christianity, like that, you know, that his parents were, you know, born again, you know, in the eighties of that new Christianity.
Marc:And he was the first kid and he watched it sort of way, you know, kind of like get more lenient by the time that I, you know, Jews talk about fucking Jews, Jewishness all the fucking time one way or the other.
Marc:I'd never heard someone specifically be able to characterize a type of Christianity of having nuance and, and comedic implications to the kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, that was really funny.
Guest:And it's really interesting for us.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was weird, like anthropology, you know?
Marc:Yeah, kind of.
Marc:But that's the other thing when we talk about filth is that motherfucker can go through a whole hour without, you know, proudly clean.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And same with Gaffigan, man.
Marc:I really like the things.
Marc:But you know Gaffigan's a filthy pig.
Marc:You know that Gaffigan, and I love him, but there's a lot going on in that head.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:He's up there, and you're like, we don't know the half of whatever this is.
Marc:But like Nate, you're sort of like, this guy's pretty straightforward.
Guest:Well, what's interesting with him is that what you'll see, and you've studied him, and maybe you've noticed this since you've watched him so much, is instead of going dirty when he needs something hardcore, he'll go with violence, actually, because that's not dirty.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that goes to the old, I mean, what you're talking about there is the old dichotomy that Lenny Bruce was talking about.
Guest:You know, Americans are okay with violence.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we think sex is bad.
Guest:Or like digging a shallow grave or the gun joke.
Guest:Yeah, or like they would, like I would murder you or someone breaks into the house.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You're going to get murdered.
Guest:There's a punchline.
Guest:I will get murdered.
Marc:The best thing that can happen is we make $5.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:The worst thing that can happen.
Marc:Is my whole family gets murdered.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:He'll go to murder.
Guest:So it's like you still need to elevate it in some kind of way.
Guest:And violence is actually the clean way to do it.
Guest:You know, a lot of the time.
Guest:And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.
Guest:I just think it's like an interesting technique.
Marc:Yeah, I wonder.
Marc:I wonder how aware he is of that.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:He knows.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, he's very, he's, I call him, he's like the world's smartest dumb person is what he is.
Marc:I think that's what he named a special.
Marc:Oh, did he?
Marc:America's greatest average, the greatest average American.
Guest:That's perfect.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, that's him, man.
Guest:He really is like, it's crazy, but he's like, he really is a comedic genius and he knows what he's doing, you know?
Guest:Yeah, no, definitely.